From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 09:02:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01H27ip000355; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:02:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01H23Nf000338; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:02:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:01:44 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DD0C2DD0D979-EAC-11F32@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <023701c60daf$46deeb10$1714fea9@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <023701c60daf$46deeb10$1714fea9@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k01H1usI032729 Resent-Message-ID: <2TQO4.A.OF.LsAuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This certainly helps explain other mysterious happenings in the quantum world. It certainly seems that the proton is simply "not there" for short periods of time. Perhaps it visits one of those other universes in multiverse string theory for a brief moment in time. This could also explain observations such as cold fusion. Hydrogen, under the influence of the metal lattice, might react as in a molecular combination with other elements and the proton might go flitting into another world only to return to find itself in proximity to another hydrogen nucleus in the lattice. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Here is short further elaboration, based on the derivative concept of a "transitory BEC state".    A key new word for the understanding of "transitory" is this situation is the "attosecond" scale ...  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 09:39:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01Hd7J9014940; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:39:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01Hd4aA014925; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:39:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:39:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MUjYIuE56tUGvIOrddb857wh4Fs40C0Ikrgcd+k0/PbZ0ggOVv7OdTFpU6snooVW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101173853698@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Where's Waldo? Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:38:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94050cb807ffdeccd0bcbffe9ffe83384cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Google-Local, Satellite view of Coal-Fired Mohave Power Plant at Laughlin, Nevada. http://www.google.com/maps?q=%22Laughlin+Nevada%22&t=k&hl=en http://www.planetark.com/avantgo/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=34265 "LOS ANGELES - Southern California Edison, a subsidiary of Edison International, on Thursday filed a notice with the California Public Utilities Commission that said it would shut the 1,580-megawatt coal-fired Mohave power plant in Laughlin, Nevada. The move was widely expected. Southern California Edison signed a consent decree with environmental groups in 1999 that the 34-year-old plant would shut by the end of 2005 unless substantial anti-pollution upgrades were made. Those upgrades were not made. The plant will shut for about four years, Southern California Edison told the California PUC. That time frame was also widely expected by the power industry. SCE said it would keep working to modify the consent decree but environmental groups said the company has had six years to fix one of the dirtiest plants in America. The shutdown is a victory for residents of southwestern Nevada, said Rob Smith, Southwestern representative of the Sierra Club. The Sierra Club, the Grand Canyon Trust and the National Parks Conservation Association got together in the mid-1990s to take Mohave's owners to court, leading to the 1999 consent decree. "As of the new year, Mohave Valley residents and Grand Canyon visitors can breathe easier because Mohave's owners chose to shut down their old polluting plant," Smith said in a statement. SCE linked the estimate of being shut for four years to negotiations with Hopi and Navajo tribes on coal and water rights in Arizona. In a unique arrangement, Peabody Energy Corp., the biggest non-government coal company in the world, mines coal on tribal land in Arizona and then crushes it into a slurry that runs on a 273-mile pipeline to the Mohave plant in Laughlin. Water used to make the slurry comes from the Navajo Aquifer in Arizona, but the tribes say this water supply is being depleted and is too valuable to continue using for the slurry. Negotiations involving the tribes are under way to get water for the slurry in a second aquifer, also on tribal land in Arizona." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Google-Local, Satellite view of Coal-Fired Mohave Power Plant at Laughlin, Nevada.
 
 
 
"LOS ANGELES - Southern California Edison, a subsidiary of Edison International, on Thursday filed a notice with the California Public Utilities Commission that said it would shut the 1,580-megawatt coal-fired Mohave power plant in Laughlin, Nevada.

The move was widely expected. Southern California Edison signed a consent decree with environmental groups in 1999 that the 34-year-old plant would shut by the end of 2005 unless substantial anti-pollution upgrades were made. Those upgrades were not made.

The plant will shut for about four years, Southern California Edison told the California PUC. That time frame was also widely expected by the power industry.

SCE said it would keep working to modify the consent decree but environmental groups said the company has had six years to fix one of the dirtiest plants in America.

The shutdown is a victory for residents of southwestern Nevada, said Rob Smith, Southwestern representative of the Sierra Club. The Sierra Club, the Grand Canyon Trust and the National Parks Conservation Association got together in the mid-1990s to take Mohave's owners to court, leading to the 1999 consent decree.

"As of the new year, Mohave Valley residents and Grand Canyon visitors can breathe easier because Mohave's owners chose to shut down their old polluting plant," Smith said in a statement.

SCE linked the estimate of being shut for four years to negotiations with Hopi and Navajo tribes on coal and water rights in Arizona. In a unique arrangement, Peabody Energy Corp., the biggest non-government coal company in the world, mines coal on tribal land in Arizona and then crushes it into a slurry that runs on a 273-mile pipeline to the Mohave plant in Laughlin.

Water used to make the slurry comes from the Navajo Aquifer in Arizona, but the tribes say this water supply is being depleted and is too valuable to continue using for the slurry. Negotiations involving the tribes are under way to get water for the slurry in a second aquifer, also on tribal land in Arizona."

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 09:44:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01HhwkP016533; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:44:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01HhtuB016507; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d701c60efa$e8ec7020$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <023701c60daf$46deeb10$1714fea9@NuDell> <8C7DD0C2DD0D979-EAC-11F32@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:43:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <7WKqPC.A.2BE.bTBuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > This certainly helps explain other mysterious happenings in the > quantum world. It certainly seems that the proton is simply > "not there" for short periods of time. Perhaps it visits one of > those other universes in multiverse string theory for a brief > moment in time. > This could also explain observations such as cold fusion. > Hydrogen, under the influence of the metal lattice, might react > as in a molecular combination with other elements and the proton > might go flitting into another world only to return to find > itself in proximity to another hydrogen nucleus in the lattice. Yes. The whole study of LENR and cold fusion - in one point of view - is all about *probability* ... or rather, it is about enhancing normal quantum probability - so that for instance, a very rare quantum-tunneling reaction - which would occur natutally once per day in an appropriate situation based on normal probability - now occurs once per nanosecond. Even in a transitory BEC situation - quantum tunneling would logically proceed at higher statisitical probability (arguably), once the fleeting BEC state is realized (due to the added constraints of the particular device such as increased pressure or decreased temperature or both). This is why I absolutely agree with Robert Forward on his appraisal of the ironic situation in the 'totality' of the prospect of using LENR as an energy source - i.e. that achieving really robust LENR will require cryogenic temperatures. Wait a minute ! Doesn't that requirement immediately make it hopeless as an energy source? After all, if we must expend 10kW to keep a LENR cell cold enough to be really active - by removing all of its excess heat and then some - then how on earth is will an effective net energy balance ever take place? Ah... There is a ready answer coming for the earliest days of CF... in fact only months after the P&F announcement it was discovered and largely ignored - but recently touched on here in another thread ... but as this is New Year's day ... perhaps some readers will appreciate a mystery to ponder ...and in the context of a "renewal"... of lost focus. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 09:53:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01Hqoa4020038; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:52:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01HqlKF020005; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:52:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:52:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:52:32 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DD13464366AF-1F0C-1A10C@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <023701c60daf$46deeb10$1714fea9@NuDell> <8C7DD0C2DD0D979-EAC-11F32@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <00d701c60efa$e8ec7020$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00d701c60efa$e8ec7020$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k01HqekK019951 Resent-Message-ID: <3-x-SD.A.e4E.vbBuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "How on earth" might be the reciprocal answer. It doesn't happen on earth. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Wait a minute ! Doesn't that requirement immediately make it hopeless as an energy source? After all, if we must expend 10kW to keep a LENR cell cold enough to be really active - by removing all of its excess heat and then some - then how on earth is will an effective net energy balance ever take place?  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 09:57:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01HvUlM022091; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:57:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01HvQpV022062; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:57:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:57:10 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7DD13EC125BB7-1F0C-1A124@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Gisin on Non-locality Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k01HvK4I021984 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I came across this remarkable quotation: "In other words, a quantum correlation is not a correlation between 2 events, but a single event that manifests itself at 2 locations." Nicolas Gisin Group of Applied Physics, University of Geneva, 1211 Geneva 4, Switzerland December 20, 2005 Amazing what a simple change in perspective can do! ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 12:12:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01KBmRL004477; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:11:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01KBj2h004458; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:11:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:11:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transitory BEC state Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 07:11:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <023701c60daf$46deeb10$1714fea9@NuDell> <8C7DD0C2DD0D979-EAC-11F32@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <00d701c60efa$e8ec7020$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00d701c60efa$e8ec7020$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:11:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k01KBbfi004401 Resent-Message-ID: <-6gssD.A.iFB.BeDuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:43:43 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Ah... There is a ready answer coming for the earliest days of >CF... in fact only months after the P&F announcement it was >discovered and largely ignored - but recently touched on here in >another thread ... but as this is New Year's day ... perhaps some >readers will appreciate a mystery to ponder > >...and in the context of a "renewal"... of lost focus. > >Jones [snip] If I had to guess, I'd say Jones is going to point to low temperature neutron production. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 13:41:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k01Lfbe5021011; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:41:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k01LfYks020990; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:41:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:41:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JW34QwR0ZVe32CbzL4A7Z5IaDbOu07T8/VhR5pr51N/oUwqd7ELObp+XEb1e0QHZ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101214118792@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Where's Waldo? Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:41:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94004114c4b50ffcf3e18086c59e679bd31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.161 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Google-Local, Satellite view of PNM's 1800 Megawatt San Juan Generating Station. http://www.google.com/maps?q=%22Farmington+New+Mexico%22&ll=36.786192,-108.402615&spn=0.048846,0.163078&t=h&hl=en EPA Compliant. http://www.pnm.com/systems/sj.htm "San Juan Generating Station, located about 15 miles northwest of Farmington, N.M., is operated by PNM and consists of four coal-fired, pressurized units that generate about 1,800 gross megawatts of electricity to serve PNM's customer base and that of eight other owners. It is the seventh-largest coal-fired generating station in the West. San Juan is PNM's primary generation source, serving 58 percent of the power needs of PNM customers." "More than 30 percent of the plant’s annual capital, operations and maintenance costs are for pollution control systems, including wastewater management and air emissions systems. The plant’s Environmental Management System is certified to ISO 14001 requirements. A state-of-the-art limestone forced-oxidation system is used for flue gas desulfurization in the emissions control system. This results in the removal of nearly 85 percent of all sulfur dioxide produced at the plant. Since 1997 alone, San Juan has reduced sulfur dioxide emissions by 50 percent. In 2002, San Juan contracted with Phoenix Cement Company to sell between 150,000 and 300,000 tons of fly ash to recycle for use in cement." By Comparison: $1.1 Billion Pollution control upgrade balked at in a high market pull area. Google-Local, Satellite view of Coal-Fired Mohave Power Plant at Laughlin, Nevada. http://www.google.com/maps?q=%22Laughlin+Nevada%22&t=k&hl=en ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Google-Local, Satellite view of PNM's 1800 Megawatt San Juan Generating Station.
 
 
 
EPA Compliant.
 
 
"San Juan Generating Station, located about 15 miles northwest of Farmington, N.M., is operated by PNM and consists of four coal-fired, pressurized units that generate about 1,800 gross megawatts of electricity to serve PNM's customer base and that of eight other owners. It is the seventh-largest coal-fired generating station in the West. San Juan is PNM's primary generation source, serving 58 percent of the power needs of PNM customers."
 
"More than 30 percent of the plant’s annual capital, operations and maintenance costs are for pollution control systems, including wastewater management and air emissions systems.
 
The plant’s Environmental Management System is certified to ISO 14001 requirements.
 
A state-of-the-art limestone forced-oxidation system is used for flue gas desulfurization in the emissions control system. This results in the removal of nearly 85 percent of all sulfur dioxide produced at the plant. Since 1997 alone, San Juan has reduced sulfur dioxide emissions by 50 percent.
 
In 2002, San Juan contracted with Phoenix Cement Company to sell between 150,000 and 300,000 tons of fly ash to recycle for use in cement."
 
By Comparison:  $1.1 Billion Pollution control upgrade balked at in a high market pull area.
 
Google-Local, Satellite view of Coal-Fired Mohave Power Plant at Laughlin, Nevada.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 17:31:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k021UlFC026835; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:30:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k021UkS0026814; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:30:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:30:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Uyt2gD7xDms10OlPRjQOdv3xW1l9XQatYweTHXbYHfJYAWU3BQ+niZJeTPl0787M; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611213034345@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: What Happened to that Monstrous Generator? Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:30:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b089a8093e940a7dcb1b8e3876419ad1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.164 Resent-Message-ID: <2Os_XB.A.2iG.FJIuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Monstrous Homopolar DC? Volts? Amps? http://lanl-the-real-story.blogspot.com/2005/03/we-have-entered-end-game-here-at-lanl.html " When will this blog focus on reality? The world is judging a LANL that pre-dated Nanos but the employees seem to enjoy the red herring. They have conveniently forgotten the past record of failures. Face I T- LANL is known as the DeLorean of big science. Take, for example, the giant TVA generator that was dragged up the hill at great cost to be hidden in a defunct laser building. Much was made of the cost to strengthen bridges and roads for the transport of a huge piece of machinery for an important experiment. What happened to that experiment? How about all those idiotic beams and lasers that had no legitimacy? Where are the refereed scientific papers? How about a few lessons-learned? Complaining about a director who has been put in place to correct a habit of bad big science ignores your past. Why doesn’t someone speak out about all the improper programs that led to fine salaries? I know. # posted by Anonymous : 3/31/2005 03:31:17 PM" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Monstrous Homopolar DC?    Volts?  Amps?  
 
 
" When will this blog focus on reality? The world is judging a LANL that pre-dated Nanos but the employees seem to enjoy the red herring. They have conveniently forgotten the past record of failures. Face I T- LANL is known as the DeLorean of big science. Take, for example, the giant TVA generator that was dragged up the hill at great cost to be hidden in a defunct laser building. Much was made of the cost to strengthen bridges and roads for the transport of a huge piece of machinery for an important experiment. What happened to that experiment? How about all those idiotic beams and lasers that had no legitimacy? Where are the refereed scientific papers? How about a few lessons-learned? Complaining about a director who has been put in place to correct a habit of bad big science ignores your past. Why doesn’t someone speak out about all the improper programs that led to fine salaries? I know.
# posted by Anonymous : 3/31/2005 03:31:17 PM"
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 20:00:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02407E4023061; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:00:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k023uFUW021737; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:56:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:56:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:55:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <94ZiBD.A.lTF.eRKuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Breakeven for "hot" fusion is simple to understand and often mentioned (though the figure is a tad useless in practical terms). But I've been wondering about "breakeven" for a cold-fusion electrolysis cell. I tried this for a definition: "Breakeven" is the amount of excess heat the cell must generate such that it would be possible (in principle!) to generate an amount of electricity from the cell equal to the amount being used by the cell. For this to mean anything we need to make some assumptions. Here's a picture (which isn't really necessary to the argument): http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/naive-cf-wet-electrolysis-cell.png And here are the assumptions: a) We have a closed electrolysis cell with an internal recombiner, so heat of dissociation is recaptured. (This would surely NOT be how a "real" commercial cell would work -- you'd most likely want to reclaim the dissociation "free energy" by running the evolved D2 gas through an external fuel cell. But for a first cut I just assumed passive catalytic recombination.) Total electrical power into the cell is "P_in". b) Coolant from the water jacket drives a heat engine which generates electricity. Coolant temperature to the heat engine is "T_high". Electrical power out from the heat engine is "P_out". c) There's some kind of cold reservoir available. Its temperature is "T_low". d) The cell is perfectly insulated and no heat is lost -- it all goes into the heat engine and thence into the cold reservoir. The heat engine is perfect, too, of course (we're looking for hypothetical "breakeven" here, not practical estimates!). e) Excess heat = "Excess" = percent over 100% of the input heat which we get out, divided by 100. From these assumptions we can find the output power immediately: P_out = P_in * (1 + Excess) * (T_high - T_low)/T_high At breakeven, P_out = P_in, and we must have 1 = (1 + Excess) * (T_high - T_low) / T_high or Excess = T_low / (T_high - T_low) or Excess = 1 / ((T_high/T_low) - 1) Note well that the excess heat at breakeven depends on the _ratio_ of T_high to T_low. If the device is to operate in a normal room environment with air cooling, T_low is likely to be ~ 20 degrees C. If the cell is operated in the usual range, between room temperature and boiling, we're pretty tightly constrained here. Now, whipping out a trusty old slide rule, we can immediately write down the breakeven values for a handful of ratios of T_high/T_low, along with the cell temperatures these represent given a couple plausible values for T_low. (Unit width font, please!) Breakeven T_high, assuming T_high, if T_high/T_low Excess T_low = 293K = 20C T_low = 273K = 0C ------------ --------- ------------------ ------------- 1 Infinity 293K (20C) 273K (0C) 1.1 10 322K (49C) 300K (27C) 1.2 5 352K (79C) 328K (55C) 1.3 3.3 381K (108C) 355K (82C) 1.4 2.5 410K (133C) 382K (109C) 1.5 2 440K (167C) 410K (137C) A couple comments are in order. First, we see immediately that we'd want to run such a cell as hot as possible; well over boiling. (This is still trivial stuff compared to the boiling lithium reactors which are on the drawing boards for _hot_ fusion! Man, if a pipe bursts on one of THOSE babies you head for the county line, I think!) At the highest temp I ran the table up to, 167C, breakeven is 200%. Even that it out of reach of most CF cells I can recall reading about. However, there was mention in ICCF-12 of someone achieving 600% excess heat. Depending on the cell temperature used, that might _already_ be above breakeven! Second, if the evolved D2 and O2 were run out to a fuel cell to be recombined, the "Excess heat" needed for breakeven would be a lot lower. Using a passive catalyst just discards most of the "free energy" pumped into the cell, which you certainly wouldn't want to do. But it would take some additional rather complex assumptions to determine "breakeven" for a CF cell with an external fuel cell recombiner. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 1 20:55:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k024t7fu011272; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:55:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k024t69a011259; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:55:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:55:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:53:56 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, I would like to suggest that the electrolytic cell will never be used to make commercial heat because it operates at too low a temperature and is not stable. Commercial application will, I predict, involve gas loading. Consequently, such calculations have no usefulness. Regards, Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Breakeven for "hot" fusion is simple to understand and often mentioned > (though the figure is a tad useless in practical terms). But I've > been wondering about "breakeven" for a cold-fusion electrolysis cell. > > I tried this for a definition: > > "Breakeven" is the amount of excess heat the cell must generate such > that it would be possible (in principle!) to generate an amount of > electricity from the cell equal to the amount being used by the > cell. > > For this to mean anything we need to make some assumptions. Here's a > picture (which isn't really necessary to the argument): > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/naive-cf-wet-electrolysis-cell.png > > And here are the assumptions: > > a) We have a closed electrolysis cell with an internal recombiner, so > heat of dissociation is recaptured. (This would surely NOT be how a > "real" commercial cell would work -- you'd most likely want to reclaim > the dissociation "free energy" by running the evolved D2 gas through > an external fuel cell. But for a first cut I just assumed passive > catalytic recombination.) Total electrical power into the cell is > "P_in". > > b) Coolant from the water jacket drives a heat engine which generates > electricity. Coolant temperature to the heat engine is "T_high". > Electrical power out from the heat engine is "P_out". > > c) There's some kind of cold reservoir available. Its temperature is > "T_low". > > d) The cell is perfectly insulated and no heat is lost -- it all goes > into the heat engine and thence into the cold reservoir. The heat > engine is perfect, too, of course (we're looking for hypothetical > "breakeven" here, not practical estimates!). > > e) Excess heat = "Excess" = percent over 100% of the input heat which > we get out, divided by 100. > > From these assumptions we can find the output power immediately: > > P_out = P_in * (1 + Excess) * (T_high - T_low)/T_high > > At breakeven, P_out = P_in, and we must have > > 1 = (1 + Excess) * (T_high - T_low) / T_high > > or > > Excess = T_low / (T_high - T_low) > > or > > Excess = 1 / ((T_high/T_low) - 1) > > Note well that the excess heat at breakeven depends on the _ratio_ of > T_high to T_low. If the device is to operate in a normal room > environment with air cooling, T_low is likely to be ~ 20 degrees C. > If the cell is operated in the usual range, between room temperature > and boiling, we're pretty tightly constrained here. > > Now, whipping out a trusty old slide rule, we can immediately write > down the breakeven values for a handful of ratios of T_high/T_low, > along with the cell temperatures these represent given a couple > plausible values for T_low. (Unit width font, please!) > > Breakeven T_high, assuming T_high, if > T_high/T_low Excess T_low = 293K = 20C T_low = 273K = 0C > ------------ --------- ------------------ ------------- > 1 Infinity 293K (20C) 273K (0C) > 1.1 10 322K (49C) 300K (27C) > 1.2 5 352K (79C) 328K (55C) > 1.3 3.3 381K (108C) 355K (82C) > 1.4 2.5 410K (133C) 382K (109C) > 1.5 2 440K (167C) 410K (137C) > > > A couple comments are in order. > > First, we see immediately that we'd want to run such a cell as hot as > possible; well over boiling. (This is still trivial stuff compared to > the boiling lithium reactors which are on the drawing boards for _hot_ > fusion! Man, if a pipe bursts on one of THOSE babies you head for the > county line, I think!) At the highest temp I ran the table up to, > 167C, breakeven is 200%. Even that it out of reach of most CF cells I > can recall reading about. However, there was mention in ICCF-12 of > someone achieving 600% excess heat. Depending on the cell temperature > used, that might _already_ be above breakeven! > > Second, if the evolved D2 and O2 were run out to a fuel cell to be > recombined, the "Excess heat" needed for breakeven would be a lot > lower. Using a passive catalyst just discards most of the "free > energy" pumped into the cell, which you certainly wouldn't want to do. > But it would take some additional rather complex assumptions to > determine "breakeven" for a CF cell with an external fuel cell > recombiner. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 01:53:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k029rA9s020471; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:53:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k029r28j020432; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:53:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:53:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=o1l/SYHF2X5aE1X87fnUHEQy+RoE8e+y3TSgMw1EKhkIY5FoD4x/XgcSKhe8LqQx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611295252235@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 02:52:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c74370e8b1325bb5286795f9e1a2a1a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.69 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000 Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole. Conspiracy, Frank? :-) Fred http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm " 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........ Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000
Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole.
 
Conspiracy, Frank?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
" 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........

    Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . "

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 02:09:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02A9KxE025376; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 02:09:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02A9IVY025357; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 02:09:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 02:09:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NhAVmszO81Vi6Esfh/ECvzwCVWg7m7mny6B03IErxzLSx2qG4PQrEmfn+y+wOjP+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 03:09:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408702fde52f0e6cad11793568f2b075a4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.69 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Tom Bearden Sez. "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, usable EM energy from the vacuum. Thermodynamically we are describing a nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons do form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial distance. One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of statistics. Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation producing useful EM energy in the observable state." "The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the excess energy from the proton. The proton (and any other charge, viewed in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the seething vacuum. So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and part of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to power external loads. The common solar cell does the same thing, receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting electrical energy." " So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to perform real work. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000 Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole. Conspiracy, Frank? :-) Fred http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm " 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........ Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Tom Bearden Sez.
 
  "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, usable EM energy from the vacuum.  Thermodynamically we are describing a nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons do form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial distance.  One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of statistics.      Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation producing useful EM energy in the observable state."
 
"The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the excess energy from the proton.  The proton (and any other charge, viewed in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the seething vacuum.  So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and part of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to power external loads.  The common solar cell does the same thing, receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting electrical energy."
"   So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to perform real work. "
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000
Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole.
 
Conspiracy, Frank?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
" 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........

    Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . "

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 05:15:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02DFXCE011932; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 05:15:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02DFVet011913; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 05:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 05:15:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AHOObavVdbNX5XwWScl3fkKIRu1xC46yVdC3TqquNQNYXs4GVrd5lB/c0/b4G50W; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006112131146998@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 06:11:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940daa8b016912f3315dd2f2599da1f1558350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.161 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In C.G. (Guy) Suits' 1930s experiments with hydrogen arcs he noted that "even at atmospheric pressure the arc had an extremely small cross section. It was, in fact, no larger than an arc in a nitrogen atmosphere subjected to pressures greater than 1500 pounds per square inch. ("a 10 ampere arc in air at atmospheric pressure had a diameter of about 1/2 inch"). He noted that when the hydrogen pressure was increased above 300 pounds per square inch "the stability of the arc was destroyed completely and could not be operated at all". Suits also noted that "the gas near the hydrogen arc reached temperatures of 6,000 to 7,000 K. This heated gas expanded, became very buoyant, and created convection currents around the arc." "As the pressure went up,so did the velocity of the convection currents". "This terrific "gas blast" cooled the arc and ultimately extinguished it." How much energy is going into the (arc discharge?) of the atomic hydrogen torch? At 498,000 joule/gram mole of H2 (22.2 liters/gram mole at STP) 498 Kilowatts would be required to break the gram mole of 5.2 eV H - H bonds in one second, or at least 830 watts in the discharge to do 2.2 liters/minute in 10 minutes. ZPE pumping, or Hydrinos if you play the stream of H atoms on potassium metal, Robin? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/2/2006 3:09:28 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Tom Bearden Sez. "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, usable EM energy from the vacuum. Thermodynamically we are describing a nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons do form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial distance. One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of statistics. Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation producing useful EM energy in the observabl! e state." "The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the excess energy from the proton. The proton (and any other charge, viewed in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the seething vacuum. So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and par! t of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to power external loads. The common solar cell does the same thing, receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting electrical energy." " So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to perform real work. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000 Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole. Conspiracy, Frank? :-) Fred http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm " 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........ Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
In C.G. (Guy)  Suits' 1930s experiments with hydrogen arcs he
noted that "even at atmospheric pressure the arc had an extremely
small cross section. It was, in fact, no larger than an arc in a nitrogen
atmosphere subjected to pressures greater than 1500 pounds per
square inch. ("a 10 ampere arc in air at atmospheric pressure had a diameter
of  about 1/2 inch").
He noted that when the hydrogen pressure was increased above 300 pounds
per square inch "the stability of the arc was destroyed completely and could not
be operated at all". Suits also noted that "the gas near the hydrogen arc reached
temperatures of 6,000 to 7,000 K. This heated gas expanded, became very buoyant,
and created convection currents around the arc."
"As the pressure went up,so did the velocity of the convection currents".
 
"This terrific "gas blast" cooled the arc and ultimately extinguished it."
 
How much energy is going into the (arc discharge?) of the atomic hydrogen torch?
 
At 498,000 joule/gram mole of H2 (22.2 liters/gram mole at STP) 498 Kilowatts
would be required to break the gram mole of 5.2 eV H - H bonds in one second,
or at least  830 watts in the discharge to do 2.2 liters/minute in 10 minutes.
 
ZPE pumping, or Hydrinos if you play the stream of H atoms on potassium metal, Robin?
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/2/2006 3:09:28 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

Tom Bearden Sez.
 
  "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, usable EM energy from the vacuum.  Thermodynamically we are describing a nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons do form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial distance.  One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of statistics.      Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation producing useful EM energy in the observabl! e state."
 
"The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the excess energy from the proton.  The proton (and any other charge, viewed in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the seething vacuum.  So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and par! t of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to power external loads.  The common solar cell does the same thing, receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting electrical energy."
"   So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to perform real work. "
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond energy of 498,000
Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole.
 
Conspiracy, Frank?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
" 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the heat energy contained in 60 loaves of bread---the "extra heat energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got bigger, and bigger, and........

    Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was obvious that science was much more straightforward in the pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . "

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 08:31:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02GUCDY020249; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:31:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02EVD2A011377; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 06:31:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 06:31:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 09:30:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > Stephen, I would like to suggest that the electrolytic cell will never > be used to make commercial heat because it operates at too low a > temperature and is not stable. Commercial application will, I predict, > involve gas loading. Consequently, such calculations have no usefulness. OK, I can't really argue with that, beyond saying such calculations are useful for showing exactly what you just said: wet cells operate at too low a temperature. With a gas loaded cell one can, in principle, run T_high/T_low up to a much higher value. Of course, the same exact calculation applies to any cell which is electrically driven and which produces energy in the form of excess heat. For example, Jed recently posted a paper by Yoshiaki Arata which used gas loading. I glanced back at it just now, though, and it appears that, since he's using electrolysis to generate the gas at high pressure, his high temp is somewhat limited. Looks like he was operating at less than 200C. I don't know how high a temp his technique could be pushed to. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 08:42:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02Gfjmw026643; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:41:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02GfhIT026607; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:41:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:41:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:41:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net CC: vortex-l Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I found this totally opaque. Is it possible to shed a little light on it in a few words? Frederick Sparber wrote: > Tom Bearden Sez. > > "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, > usable EM energy from the vacuum. Say what? What is he talking about here? The field of a fixed charge, as I understand it, is conservative. It's got a fixed amount of energy; there's no "flow" involved. So, again, what's he talking about with the "flow" of "real usable EM energy"? > Thermodynamically we are describing a > nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is > permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). > The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to > any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons As a rule fixed charges only emit real "photons" when they accelerate, and that requires adding energy. Or is he talking about virtual photons which mediate the fixed E field? > do > form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial > distance. One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at > any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of > statistics. Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge > consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the > virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled > energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation > producing useful EM energy in the observabl! e state." > > "The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations > on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the > excess energy from the proton. The proton (and any other charge, viewed > in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly > pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated > (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the > seething vacuum. So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with > atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect > sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from > each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 > performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known > in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's > rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the > form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and par! > t of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to > power external loads. The common solar cell does the same thing, > receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting > electrical energy." > " So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental > information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing > discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of > the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to > perform real work. " > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Frederick Sparber > *To: *vortex-l > *Sent:* 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond > energy of 498,000 > Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole. > > Conspiracy, Frank? :-) > > Fred > > http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm > > " 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the > heat energy contained in _60 loaves of bread_---the "extra heat > energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount > of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief > passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much > energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in > conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess > heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic > hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got > bigger, and bigger, and........ > > Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth > editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was > obvious that science was much more straightforward in the > pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . " > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 09:30:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02HUCc8009544; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02H42sc032655; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:04:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:04:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dxgywVNqWPAH7fwLrjzm9tzXhGilpBk1a+Jdd9J3fVOGA5LYDUYWvMSIFB/5Gfi2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611217351700@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:03:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402f29494dc225549f359adb98feaff280350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.41 Resent-Message-ID: <1AIumB.A.89H.A0VuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You got me on that, Stephen. When you try to interpret Tom Bearden it could be ELLIOT NESS or LOCH NESS. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > To: > Cc: vortex-l > Date: 1/2/2006 9:41:50 AM > Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > I found this totally opaque. Is it possible to shed a little light on > it in a few words? > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Tom Bearden Sez. > > > > "The point is that any charge produces a continuous flow of real, > > usable EM energy from the vacuum. > > Say what? What is he talking about here? > > The field of a fixed charge, as I understand it, is conservative. It's > got a fixed amount of energy; there's no "flow" involved. > > So, again, what's he talking about with the "flow" of "real usable EM > energy"? > > > > Thermodynamically we are describing a > > nonequilibrium steady-state (NESS) system, and such a system is > > permitted to continuously emit energy (received from its environment). > > The charge also falsifies the present second law of thermodynamics to > > any size level and time duration desired, because the emitted photons > > As a rule fixed charges only emit real "photons" when they accelerate, > and that requires adding energy. > > Or is he talking about virtual photons which mediate the fixed E field? > > > > do > > form deterministic EM fields and potentials as a function of radial > > distance. One calculates the field intensity and potential intensity at > > any radial point, by a deterministic formula -- not by the use of > > statistics. Stated in the language of thermodynamics, the charge > > consumes positive entropy (disordered and uncontrolled energy) in the > > virtual state, and coherently integrates it to ordered and controlled > > energy in the observable state, which is a negative entropy operation > > producing useful EM energy in the observabl! e state." > > > > "The end result is to put some real substance into Lyne's observations > > on the excess energy from atomic hydrogen, which is equivalent to the > > excess energy from the proton. The proton (and any other charge, viewed > > in the quantum field theory manner) is continuously and ceaselessly > > pouring out real EM energy extracted and coherently integrated > > (RE-ORDERED and RECOVERED) from the disordered virtual energy of the > > seething vacuum. So the only barrier to COP>1.0 EM performance with > > atomic hydrogen is in the process or method used to diverge and collect > > sufficient of the continuously flowing "gusher" of real EM energy from > > each atom (each proton). Or, viewed thermodynamically, COP>1.0 > > performance is permitted by the NESS process, as is already well known > > in the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium steady state systems. It's > > rather like a windmill in a steady wind. It can permissibly change the > > form of its input energy to a different form of output energy, and par! > > t of that output energy can be intercepted, collected, and dissipated to > > power external loads. The common solar cell does the same thing, > > receiving observable photons from its environment and outputting > > electrical energy." > > " So the reader is urged to simply consider the fundamental > > information in Lyne's cogent writing, in light of the foregoing > > discussion, and sort out the science as he sees fit. The real point of > > the article is the excess energy output, and its availability for use to > > perform real work. " > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Frederick Sparber > > *To: *vortex-l > > *Sent:* 1/2/2006 2:53:17 AM > > *Subject:* Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > > > The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the H - H bond > > energy of 498,000 > > Joules per mole (119,000 cal/gram mole) or 472 BTU/gram mole. > > > > Conspiracy, Frank? :-) > > > > Fred > > > > http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm > > > > " 109,000 cal./gram mole equals 432.6 BTU/gram mole--- roughly the > > heat energy contained in _60 loaves of bread_---the "extra heat > > energy" which they have asked us to believe is 'stored' in an amount > > of atomic hydrogen which weighs 1/28th of an ounce, during its brief > > passage through the arc! How could the transformer produce that much > > energy, especially when it uses only half what it does in > > conventional welding processes? It seems more likely that excess > > heat could be stored in molecules than in 'almost naked' atomic > > hydrogen atoms. What ever happened to Bohr's little atom! It got > > bigger, and bigger, and........ > > > > Between the older text (1921-1950, from the first and sixth > > editions) and the newer (1976) Norton science encyclopedia, it was > > obvious that science was much more straightforward in the > > pre-National Security Act days, and that . . . . . . " > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 09:52:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02Hq4aC030664; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:52:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02Hq2Uc030636; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:52:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:52:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:51:43 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell In-Reply-To: <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k02Hpp4m030524 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >OK, I can't really argue with that, beyond >saying such calculations are useful for showing >exactly what you just said: wet cells operate at too low a temperature. I do not know any reason why a wet cell could not be pressurized to operate at 200 or 300°C. This would be ideal for producing electricity. Many fission reactors use pressurized water. On the other hand gas loading does seem more promising for various other reasons. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 10:35:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02IZ38k025367; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:35:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02IZ1Ub025324; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:35:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:35:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:35:11 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-caMFB.A.kLG.UJXuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem with a wet cell is that material is continuously being transferred from the anode to the cathode, and Li is slowly dissolving in the cathode. This can not be prevented. These changes will eventually destroy the NAE. In addition, the higher the temperature, the faster these reactions will occur. Also, D2O is harder to keep free of H2O compared to keeping D2 free of H2. In short, more engineering problems have to be solved when D2O is used. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> OK, I can't really argue with that, beyond saying such calculations >> are useful for showing exactly what you just said: wet cells operate >> at too low a temperature. > > > I do not know any reason why a wet cell could not be pressurized to > operate at 200 or 300°C. This would be ideal for producing electricity. > Many fission reactors use pressurized water. On the other hand gas > loading does seem more promising for various other reasons. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 12:19:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02KIuvb005847; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:19:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02KIsMU005827; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:18:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SaNCefJTiae2tVGdkHBxM71QmJ/nSIhL5n+0Hp2jPbMOsydCPtgOlAJ+EhhGmAD1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006112201844962@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Guy Suits on The Life of William David Coolidge Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:18:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402087e8f0a456c432d90edca2a9513e3c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.151 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interesting biography and GE research lab history. http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/coolidge.html "The only person ever elected in his lifetime to the National Inventor's Hall of Fame lived for 102 years." National Academy of Sciences Memorial Biography By C. G. SUITS Director of General Electric Research Laboratory ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Interesting biography and GE research lab history.
 
 
"The only person ever elected in his lifetime to the National Inventor's Hall of Fame lived for 102 years."
 
National Academy of Sciences Memorial Biography
By C. G. SUITS
Director of General Electric Research Laboratory
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 12:40:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02KeCYf012935; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:40:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02Ke8qV012893; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:40:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:40:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 07:39:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:39:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k02Kdws7012798 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:35:11 -0700: Hi, [snip] >The problem with a wet cell is that material is continuously being >transferred from the anode to the cathode, and Li is slowly dissolving >in the cathode. This can not be prevented. These changes will >eventually destroy the NAE. In addition, the higher the temperature, >the faster these reactions will occur. Also, D2O is harder to keep free >of H2O compared to keeping D2 free of H2. In short, more engineering >problems have to be solved when D2O is used. > >Ed [snip] CF actually *consumes* very little D or H. The rest is merely recycled. Perhaps if nano structured cathodes become available, the current can be reduced to the point where only enough D/H need be produced to replace that actually consumed. Then such cells may only require micro Ampere currents, and would last much longer, even at higher temperatures. By "nano structured" I mean cathodes that are composed almost entirely of active sites, by design. This of course assumes that we eventually discover exactly what constitutes an active site, and are capable of producing them at will. There is also the possibility of using continuous "ribbon feed" anodes and cathodes. (Loops in the ribbon pass slowly through the cells, such that the anode and cathode are continuously renewed). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 13:26:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k02LQLM5000955; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:26:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k02LQJQM000932; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:26:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:11:30 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The only reason to use the electrolytic approach at this time is because this method creates the NAE on occasion. The other methods require the NAE to be created on purpose, which a few people have done without knowing how. However, once the NAE can be created in large amounts, what would be the point of using messy electrolysis? You only need to heat the NAE in D2 gas and the assembly will stay hot forever, as the small amount of D2 is replaced and the He removed. Regards, Ed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:35:11 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>The problem with a wet cell is that material is continuously being >>transferred from the anode to the cathode, and Li is slowly dissolving >>in the cathode. This can not be prevented. These changes will >>eventually destroy the NAE. In addition, the higher the temperature, >>the faster these reactions will occur. Also, D2O is harder to keep free >>of H2O compared to keeping D2 free of H2. In short, more engineering >>problems have to be solved when D2O is used. >> >>Ed > > [snip] > CF actually *consumes* very little D or H. The rest is merely > recycled. Perhaps if nano structured cathodes become available, > the current can be reduced to the point where only enough D/H need > be produced to replace that actually consumed. Then such cells may > only require micro Ampere currents, and would last much longer, > even at higher temperatures. By "nano structured" I mean cathodes > that are composed almost entirely of active sites, by design. This > of course assumes that we eventually discover exactly what > constitutes an active site, and are capable of producing them at > will. > > There is also the possibility of using continuous "ribbon feed" > anodes and cathodes. (Loops in the ribbon pass slowly through the > cells, such that the anode and cathode are continuously renewed). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 17:51:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k031oVVE000775; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:50:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k031oQba000646; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:50:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:50:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:29:44 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DE1C4F727753-1F0C-1C2E8@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Fwd: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 172.18.150.225 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k029nu03000420 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (rePete?) I don't think Mr. (Dr. {hon.}) Bearden understands all he knows. He has two good ideas: "regauging" and "reverse-time (conjugate) waves". Unfortunately, I'm still paying for the power company to oscillate my electrons at 60 Hz. And all I hear are excuses for the MEG.    He had one idea right and has changed it recently. Consider the proton with it's positive charge. The positive electrical "field" of the hydrogen atom's proton is "shielded" by the electron. But, suppose you ionize the H atom? How does the purely electrical field of the proton express itself in the universe? Does it propagate? If so, at what speed?    Today Dr. (hon) Bearden is saying the proton draws photons from the aether. Now, how is that different from his earlier work?    -----Original Message-----  From: Stephen A. Lawrence    I found this totally opaque. Is it possible to shed a little light on it in a few words?   ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 17:59:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k031wKUE007438; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:58:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k031vt5s006981; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:57:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:57:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:04:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: weird glow from aluminum... is UV output short or long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20051220054804.065A7109EB6@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <4Xd01C.A.osB.goduDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 2 Jan 2006, William Beaty wrote: > What if the blue glow from Al electrolysis CAN produce tanning; what if > it's a source of "hard" shortwave UV radiation? Separate topic: exotic biology. If the ultraviolet glow is from microbes, then bactericides such as Sodium Azide or perhaps even chlorine bleach might kill the organisms and keep the aluminum from glowing. A small percentage of sodium azide would be a quick test for biology. The stuff is supposedly pretty nasty for all DNA-using life forms, and was used in some early Nanobacteria experiments. Think in terms of evolution: what could a microbe do if it easily survives hard UV emission, and also emits hard UV itself? It's like penicillin, like toxin-producing microbes which kill off the competition. And if the bugs can handle that much hard UV, then they can live even in shallow water and wet land surface on ancient Earth before the ozone layer started blocking the short end of the UV spectrum. (Don't forget that another one, S. Radiodurans bacteria, can tolerate enormous gamma ray flux, and wouldn't be harmed by living inside a fission reactor.) I don't know of any chemical reactions which fluoresce in shortwave UV, so if Reich's bions are real, then maybe they've harnessed LENR or hydrinos or something else that makes UV. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 17:59:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k031x4iH008002; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:59:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k031w3eZ007131; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:58:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:58:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:01:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: weird glow from aluminum... is UV output short or long? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20051220054804.065A7109EB6@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <7FFE7C.A.ksB.goduDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 25 Dec 2005, William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, thomas malloy wrote: > > According to Reich, nanobacteria, or something similar, can be > > produced by placing beach sand, previously heated to incandescence on > > sterile growth medium, in a orgone accumulator. Perhaps this strategy > > might be useful in inducing LENRs. It is reported that when he > > followed the above scenario, it gave him a tan with his clothes on, > > IMHO, that's a scarry thought. Sorry, I didn't see all the implications of Reich Bions. What if the blue glow from Al electrolysis CAN produce tanning; what if it's a source of "hard" shortwave UV radiation? If the electrode was immersed deep in UV-blocking water behind UV-blocking soda-glass, we might never suspect it was happening. (And if Reich's results were real, then he was lucky to stumble upon them, via shallow open petri dishes.) Also, does the aluminum-electrolysis blue glow vanish instantly when the circuit is opened? If the glow was biological (or even non-electric chemistry), then we'd expect it to persist for awhile when the current was suddenly halted. (Heh. Does is glow switch on again if the disconnected electrolysis cell is placed in an Orgone box?) Also, it might be possible to get the UV out into the air where it can be analyzed. If water blocks UV, a THIN layer of water should let it out. How thin? Would a few mm of water still block most of the UV? If the electrolysis cell was built in a petri dish with a metal screen electrode above, and aluminum below, then any UV radiation only needs to travel vertically through one or two mm of water. Or, if the glow persists for awhile after the power supply is removed, we could simply yank the aluminum out of the cell and check it's UV output. Anybody have a short-UV detector? Forrest Mims was making these for a science fair project a few years ago, using silicon light detectors with narrowband UV-pass filters. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 18:17:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0322f4L011453; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:16:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k031wZrk007624; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:58:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:58:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:10:51 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 172.18.150.225 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k031wLiJ007374 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think Mr. (Dr. {hon.}) Bearden understands all he knows. He has two good ideas: "regauging" and "reverse-time (conjugate) waves". Unfortunately, I'm still paying for the power company to oscillate my electrons at 60 Hz. And all I hear are excuses for the MEG. He had one idea right and has changed it recently. Consider the proton with it's positive charge. The positive electrical "field" of the hydrogen atom's proton is "shielded" by the electron. But, suppose you ionize the H atom? How does the purely electrical field of the proton express itself in the universe? Does it propagate? If so, at what speed? Today Dr. (hon) Bearden is saying the proton draws photons from the aether. Now, how is that different from his earlier work? -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence I found this totally opaque. Is it possible to shed a little light on it in a few words?  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 18:34:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k032VCKj004426; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:33:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k032LKlb027200; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:21:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:21:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:24:14 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:24:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k032KuiG026725 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:11:30 -0700: Hi, >The only reason to use the electrolytic approach at this time is because >this method creates the NAE on occasion. The other methods require the >NAE to be created on purpose, which a few people have done without >knowing how. However, once the NAE can be created in large amounts, what >would be the point of using messy electrolysis? You only need to heat >the NAE in D2 gas and the assembly will stay hot forever, as the small >amount of D2 is replaced and the He removed. > >Regards, >Ed [snip] In that case, it may just be a matter of convenience. At some point the heat has to be converted to electricity. That implies heating a working fluid which passes through a turbine. The working fluid may be the fuel gas itself in the method you describe, or it may be steam from an electrolysis cell. I imagine that both methods will find application. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 20:07:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0346ebb012629; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:06:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0345lA7012127; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:05:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:05:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B9F2B0.30805@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:42:40 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-Tfs8D.A.O9C.YgfuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, you ignore the main problem associated with this phenomena. The NAE is unique and delicate. If the electrolyte is circulated, it will pick up impurities that will accelerate destruction of the cathode. If the gas is circulated, it also will pick up impurities that will react with the hot NAE causing its destruction. These impurities would have to be removed, thereby adding complexity and expense. On the other hand, heat can be removed by simple conduction through the walls of the container and into thermoelectric converters. The whole apparatus can be sealed with no moving parts. Doesn't this sound better? Regards, Ed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:11:30 > -0700: > Hi, > >>The only reason to use the electrolytic approach at this time is because >>this method creates the NAE on occasion. The other methods require the >>NAE to be created on purpose, which a few people have done without >>knowing how. However, once the NAE can be created in large amounts, what >>would be the point of using messy electrolysis? You only need to heat >>the NAE in D2 gas and the assembly will stay hot forever, as the small >>amount of D2 is replaced and the He removed. >> >>Regards, >>Ed > > [snip] > In that case, it may just be a matter of convenience. At some > point the heat has to be converted to electricity. That implies > heating a working fluid which passes through a turbine. The > working fluid may be the fuel gas itself in the method you > describe, or it may be steam from an electrolysis cell. > I imagine that both methods will find application. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 20:34:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k034XFdt030247; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:33:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k034XAFq030182; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:33:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:32:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> <43B9F2B0.30805@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <43B9F2B0.30805@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 3 Jan 2006 04:32:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k034Wv9d029962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:42:40 -0700: Hi Ed, [snip] >Robin, you ignore the main problem associated with this phenomena. The >NAE is unique and delicate. If the electrolyte is circulated, it will >pick up impurities that will accelerate destruction of the cathode. If >the gas is circulated, it also will pick up impurities that will react >with the hot NAE causing its destruction. These impurities would have >to be removed, thereby adding complexity and expense. On the other >hand, heat can be removed by simple conduction through the walls of the >container and into thermoelectric converters. The whole apparatus can >be sealed with no moving parts. Doesn't this sound better? > >Regards, >Ed You may be correct, but I fear the situation may be worse than you think. Given the micro-photographs taken by some experimenters, revealing "eruptions" at reaction sites, it's very possible that the reaction itself is what is destroying the NAEs (as a consequence of the large local energy release). IOW NAEs might only be "use once". Then the question becomes, how much energy is required to create one, and how much is produced by it. If this is so, then contamination may only be a minor issue. However it's also possible that the only requirement is that certain trace elements (or isotopes) be present, in which case it may not matter whether or not the actual crystalline structure is rearranged at a local level. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 21:01:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0350dfq019294; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:01:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k034bKAm032516; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:37:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060102231316442.6C0E53C0008B@mwinf3212.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060102231316.00a03bf8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:13:16 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:35 pm 02/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Frank. > >William (Bill) Lyne lives up at Lamy, New Mexico Southeast >of Ed Storms' Santa Fe Abode. I csalled him this morning for a short chat >and challenged him to join Vortex.. At age 67 he's seasoned enough. > >http://www.google.com/maps?q=Lamy,+NM+87540&t=h&hl=en > >As you can see except for Willa Cathers' "Death Comes to The Archbishop" >there isn't much there. :-) > >BTW, the Santa Fe Railroad doesn't go to Santa Fe. You have to >take a bus from Lamy. > >Fred If one didn't know that map was a map, it could be a close up of a vertical rock outcrop. What barren place. It make London look positively bucolic. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 21:31:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k035V4St007816; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:31:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k035AeTu026035; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:10:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:10:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43B9E0FB.3070400@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:27:07 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7DE1C4F727753-1F0C-1C2E8@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7DE1C4F727753-1F0C-1C2E8@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-8YbrC.A.gWG.PdguDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > (rePete?) > > I don't think Mr. (Dr. {hon.}) Bearden understands all he knows. He has > two good ideas: "regauging" and "reverse-time (conjugate) waves". > Unfortunately, I'm still paying for the power company to oscillate my > electrons at 60 Hz. And all I hear are excuses for the MEG. > > He had one idea right and has changed it recently. Consider the proton > with it's positive charge. The positive electrical "field" of the > hydrogen atom's proton is "shielded" by the electron. But, suppose you > ionize the H atom? How does the purely electrical field of the proton > express itself in the universe? Does it propagate? If so, at what speed? I don't know if the questions are rhetorical, but the answers to these questions are well understood. How do you "ionize" an H atom? You remove the electron; you don't do anything to the proton. But before we pursue that, let's back up a little. The field of the proton was present from the get-go. (It's had something like 30 billion years to propagate to the corners of the universe...) The "shielding" of the electron takes the form of the principle of superposition: the net E field at each point is the _sum_ of the proton's field and the electron's field. When the electron is more or less uniformly distributed over a spherical volume with the proton at the center, the two fields sum to almost exactly zero everywhere outside the atom. Now, when you "ionize" the atom by removing the electron, it's the electron which moves (or anyway it's the electron which moves a lot; the proton only moves a little). The proton's field doesn't change (much) because the proton doesn't move (much); the electron's field, on the other hand, moves a lot to follow the electron, which moves a lot. The information that the electron has moved is visible in the changes to its field. Those changes propagate at C, just like any other EM wave. The change in the field of the electron -- due to its motion -- carries energy; that energy was provided to the field by whatever force accelerated the electron. When the changes to the electron's field have propagated out past the position of an observer, the observer will see that it's centered on the electron, which has now moved off someplace far from the proton. It's no longer exactly superimposed on the proton's field. Hence, the proton's unchanged field is no longer being cancelled at every point by the electron's field and so we can detect it, where we couldn't before. > Today Dr. (hon) Bearden is saying the proton draws photons from the > aether. Now, how is that different from his earlier work? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > > I found this totally opaque. Is it possible to shed a little light on it > in a few words? > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 07:26:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03FQAs5005138; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:26:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03FQ5ml005083; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:26:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:26:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:25:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DE9113254512-1B04-146E2@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7DE1C4F727753-1F0C-1C2E8@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <43B9E0FB.3070400@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43B9E0FB.3070400@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is what I do not understand. The electric field is *not* an electromagnetic field. It is a scalar field. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence The information that the electron has moved is visible in the changes to its field. Those changes propagate at C, just like any other EM wave. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 08:10:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03G9jSQ029700; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:09:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03G9hbr029687; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:09:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:09:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BAA1B6.3080901@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 11:09:26 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER References: <410-2200611210910602@earthlink.net> <43B957B7.5030500@pobox.com> <8C7DE114AC791DB-1B04-3A9CA@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7DE1C4F727753-1F0C-1C2E8@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <43B9E0FB.3070400@pobox.com> <8C7DE9113254512-1B04-146E2@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7DE9113254512-1B04-146E2@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > This is what I do not understand. The electric field is *not* an > electromagnetic field. It is a scalar field. Here's a rather nice picture of a charged particle which accelerates, and its associated field: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/mtw_moving_charge.png The E field is not a scalar field. A scalar field is represented by a single number (magnitude) at each point; the E field is represented by a vector at each point (magnitude _and_ direction -- that requires 3 numbers in 3-space, or 4 numbers in 4-space). So, in 3-space it's a vector field, not a scalar field. However, that's not really a complete picture. It's actually just _part_ of the EM field, and it doesn't transform indepedently of the B field. The E field, alone, isn't a proper tensor field, and you can't predict how it's going to look to various observers without taking account of the B field as well. (The E and B fields together combine to form a rank 2 tensor which _does_ transform properly.) You can also replace the E and B fields with the vector magnetic potential, the "A" field, which is just a vector field, and which does transform sensibly. In other words, the vector magnetic potential is a tensor field. For working with electromagnetic radiation it's necessary to take account of both the E and the B fields. Furthermore, if you leave special relativity out of the picture, it's very hard to make it work out properly (SR was invented in large part just to deal with this sort of problem, after all). (I will just be leaving the picture up on the site for a few days -- it's scanned from MTW's textbook.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > > The information that the electron has moved is visible in the changes to > its field. Those changes propagate at C, just like any other EM wave. > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 08:12:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03GCC84031351; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:12:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03GBqjR031098; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:11:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:11:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=C0qT1SarS8mW7x8WAwKo8JsSZt1cqd1WaIVJQAw8X5BiZJQGbQP7+1SFb4D3X3rQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006123161132891@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:11:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94081cab264871bf236f75dc3e121b5b034350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.244 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All the theorizing doesn't do a simple Atomic Hydrogen Torch calorimetry experiment to see if there is any over-unity heat produced. And whether the dissociation is taking place in the discharge or on the hot tungsten electrode tips. Or, If the abundance of free electrons in the discharge tend to satisfy the 0.75 eV Electron Affinity of Neutral H or D atoms and "catalyze" the dissociation of H2 or D2. Seems that Bearden merely restates (tries to explain) the stability of orbital states as espoused by Bohr and others. He seems to follow in Hal Puthoff's footsteps. Fred > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 1/3/2006 8:26:15 AM > Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > This is what I do not understand. The electric field is *not* an > electromagnetic field. It is a scalar field. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > > The information that the electron has moved is visible in the changes > to its field. Those changes propagate at C, just like any other EM > wave. > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 09:17:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03HGh3E000944; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:16:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03HF3uf032283; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:15:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:15:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:14:14 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k03HEoUc032108 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In polar coordinates the field has only a single value at a given distance. Also, the permeability of space does not apply to the static point charge. Granted, a truly static point charge is purely a mental construct; however, maybe you can see my point. Of course this thought experiment violates HUP since the proton is *not* in motion. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence The E field is not a scalar field. A scalar field is represented by a single number (magnitude) at each point; the E field is represented by a vector at each point (magnitude _and_ direction -- that requires 3 numbers in 3-space, or 4 numbers in 4-space).  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 09:35:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03HUQnm010174; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:35:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03HAAb8028351; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:10:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:10:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:09:45 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DE9FA156E6EA-118C-55@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <43B8A447.1050801@pobox.com> <43B8B1E4.4050201@ix.netcom.com> <43B9391C.6000301@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060102124754.03949638@mindspring.com> <43B9725F.8050603@ix.netcom.com> <033jr11qchg98e7rchb2oetaohu75lbnuh@4ax.com> <43B99702.4090003@ix.netcom.com> <43B9F2B0.30805@ix.netcom.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Breakeven for a wet-electrolysis CF cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It which case the Edisonian approach to utilization of a CF reaction will never produce a practical energy source. We must then thoroughly understand the LENR process to build a non-self-destructing device. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk You may be correct, but I fear the situation may be worse than you think. Given the micro-photographs taken by some experimenters, revealing "eruptions" at reaction sites, it's very possible that the reaction itself is what is destroying the NAEs (as a consequence of the large local energy release). ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 10:11:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03IB3jg001285; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:11:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03IAoih001138; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:10:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:10:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:48:38 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > In polar coordinates the field has only a single value at a given > distance. That's not correct. In polar coordinates the field is described by three values at every point: the magnitude, and the altitude and azimuth of the direction. If the charge is located at the origin, the latter two will happen to match the alt and azi of the observer. But that doesn't mean they're not needed to describe the field; it just means you can mentally refer to them to the coords of the location and not bother to write them down. If the point doesn't happen to be located at the horizon, then none of the three parameters describing the field will match the coordinates of the observer and it's harder to forget to write them down :-) To put it another way, if you use the (non-coordinate) unit basis vectors (R, Theta, Phi), you can describe the field as (k/r^2) * R where R is the unit radius vector, and it _looks_ like there's just one parameter. But that's not correct. First, to describe the basis vector "R" you need three parameters (because it varies depending on the location); and second, there are really three params here, but as an artifact of the way you've chosen the coordinates the other two happen to be zero. You've really got (k/r^2) * R + 0 * Theta + 0 * Phi Again, move the charge off the origin and those zeros change to messy functions of the position. > Also, the permeability of space does not apply to the static > point charge. I'm not following you. The permeability of space, which is arguably an artifict of the units chosen (since it pretty much disappears in cgs units), shows up in Maxwell's equations but isn't interesting unless the fields are changing. But I don't see how that relates to the electric field viewed as a scalar field? > Granted, a truly static point charge is purely a mental > construct; however, maybe you can see my point. > > Of course this thought experiment violates HUP since the proton is *not* > in motion. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > > The E field is not a scalar field. A scalar field is represented by a > single number (magnitude) at each point; the E field is represented by a > vector at each point (magnitude _and_ direction -- that requires 3 > numbers in 3-space, or 4 numbers in 4-space). > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 12:32:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03KUSgu032617; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:32:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03K1fqg019410; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:01:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:01:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:01:25 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7DEB79C7F0C34-171C-9189@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is Helium a commodity that one can invest? This company plans to ship 4 kW units this fall: http://www.magenn.com/products.php Inflatable, rotating-balloon, wind generators. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 12:32:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03KUSgw032617; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:32:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03JsKBL017350; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:54:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:54:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:48:55 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DEB5DD42F511-171C-9133@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's really not worth trying. Rantings of a madman, quite. Thoughts which occured while trying to understand Gennady Shipov. -"I want a clean cup," interrupted the Hatter, "let's all move one space on." -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence I'm not following you. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 13:32:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03LUJKY024153; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:32:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03KwS2K011596; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:58:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:58:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060103205404645.9DB059400081@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060103205405.00997d1c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:54:05 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:01 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: > Is Helium a commodity that one can invest? > This company plans to ship > 4 kW units this fall: > > http://www.magenn.com/products.php > > Inflatable, rotating-balloon, wind generators. That seems a neat idea. I really like it. Use helium lift to get up high where the wind is. I doubt if Town Planning would allow it in the urbs where I live but it would be great in the wide open spaces and the US has plenty of those. I can well see why you would like to invest in helium. But then why not use hydrogen. After all, it's not the Hindenberg is it. I reckon a car filled with petrol is more dangerous than one of those filled with H2. Out on a farm in the boondocks hydrogen would be perfectly safe. The could sell hydrogen generating equipment as an accessory. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 14:20:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03MK5xx010766; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:20:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03MJxLS010680; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:19:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:19:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:52:54 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c610b0$0ddca3d0$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <8C7DEB79C7F0C34-171C-9189@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Very cool! Thanks for posting this... -john -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:01 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Is Helium a commodity that one can invest? This company plans to ship 4 kW units this fall: http://www.magenn.com/products.php Inflatable, rotating-balloon, wind generators. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 14:31:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03MUSRZ016424; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:31:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03M2qMs002210; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:02:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:57:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DEC7D65BBEEC-2188-18A5B@mblkn-m08.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060103205405.00997d1c@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060103205405.00997d1c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.72 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No. And it was probably the shellac which caused the disaster. However, if I invest $10k in a wind generator, I wouldn't want to see my investment coming down in flames due to sparks from the generator. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer But then why not use hydrogen. After all, it's not the Hindenberg is it. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 15:30:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k03NU622007319; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k03NIJWu001537; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:18:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060103231753372.5AD602400084@mwinf3201.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:17:53 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: <5KZDn.A.yX.5YwuDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:57 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: >No. And it was probably the shellac which caused the disaster. > >However, if I invest $10k in a wind generator, I wouldn't want to see >my investment coming down in flames due to sparks from the generator. > Come on! Not much chance of that with a properly designed system. I'm sure cost benefit analysis would show that the money saved by using H2 would more than pay the cost of extra insurance cover. During WW2 we used barrage balloons filled with hydrogen and though plenty of them were shot down I never heard of any catching alight by accident. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 18:59:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k042wWVk008848; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:58:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k042wQUr008749; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:58:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:58:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:58:01 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DEF1CF00E89F-19A8-CDC@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Did any ever get struck by Thor? -----Original Message----- From: Grimer During WW2 we used barrage balloons filled with hydrogen and though plenty of them were shot down I never heard of any catching alight by accident. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 19:03:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0430EmT010142; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:03:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k042gxk4029080; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:42:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:42:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BB31B9.8070501@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:23:53 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall References: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Grimer wrote: > At 04:57 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>No. And it was probably the shellac which caused the disaster. >> >>However, if I invest $10k in a wind generator, I wouldn't want to see >>my investment coming down in flames due to sparks from the generator. >> > > > > Come on! Not much chance of that with a properly designed system. > > I'm sure cost benefit analysis would show that the money saved > by using H2 would more than pay the cost of extra insurance cover. Hydrogen has more lift, it's cheaper, and it's easier to contain (molecule's roughly twice as big, doesn't slip through the pores so quickly). Helium's a very poor second choice, except for the flammability issue. OTOH hydrogen is explosive in certain circumstances, so you might be suspected of terrorist activities if it got around that you were making large amounts of it. > > During WW2 we used barrage balloons filled with hydrogen and though > plenty of them were shot down I never heard of any catching alight > by accident. > > Frank > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 21:35:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k045UAKA013890; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:35:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k043wigQ028272; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:58:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:58:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:33:05 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DEF6B52EFD53-19A8-D93@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 172.18.150.225 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k043wbQv028253 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's been a difficult day. I didn't mean to short-change you. My boss has learned he has "senile aortic calcification" and must get a valve job. I never even heard of the disease. He's been briefing me on my new responsibilities for the next two months. All the responsibilities but no rise in pay. What I was *trying* to say is that the electric tension from a motionless point charge is time invariant. I am intentionally avoiding the word "field". I am also trying to say that that tension does not propagate -- at least not like an electromagnetic wave -- maybe 10^12 x c or faster. I was trying to relate to Fred's assertion by using the ionizaton of atomic hydrogen as being an immediate regaging of the electric field. I see the pure electric tension as a direct relation to Shipov's torsion field propagation. Here's a brief on Shipov: http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_1_6.html At the same time, I'm trying to understand this crazy Brit (sorry, that's redundant) who is saying that Jozef's law is off by eight orders of magnitude. I'm confused because we did an experiment in Fizziks 102 in school using Stefan's law to calculate the area of a wolfram filiment. We were only off by 75%. I'm not bored! -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence I'm not following you. The permeability of space, which is arguably an artifict of the units chosen (since it pretty much disappears in cgs units), shows up in Maxwell's equations but isn't interesting unless the fields are changing. But I don't see how that relates to the electric field viewed as a scalar field?  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 04:54:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04Crdnn023863; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:53:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04CrWQL023724; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:53:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:53:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060104040622878.D66991C00081@mwinf3006.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:06:22 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:58 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Did any ever get struck by Thor? I never heard of a case. Lighting doesn't bring down aeroplanes very often. Why should it bring down balloons? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 04:57:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04CuriR027004; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:56:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04Cul8d026862; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:56:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:56:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060104065819718.AF7B9B800082@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060104065819.00993a54@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 06:58:19 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > It's been a difficult day. I didn't mean to short-change you. > My boss has learned he has "senile aortic calcification" > and must get a valve job. I never even heard of the disease. > He's been briefing me on my new responsibilities for the next > two months. All the responsibilities but no rise in pay. It's a hard world. 8-( > At the same time, I'm trying to understand this crazy Brit... =================================== Good people all, of every sort, Give ear unto my song; And if you find it wond'rous short, It cannot hold you long. In Islington there was a man, Of whom the world might say, That still a godly race he ran, Whene'er he went to pray. A kind and gentle heart he had, To comfort friends and foes; The naked every day he clad, When he put on his clothes. And in that town a dog was found, As many dogs there be, Both mungrel, puppy, whelp and hound, And curs of low degree. This dog and man at first were friends; But when a pique began, The dog, to gain some private ends, Went mad and bit the man. Around from all the neighbouring streets, The wondering neighbours ran, And swore the dog had lost his wits, To bite so good a man. The wound it seemed both sore and sad, To every Christian eye; And while they swore the dog was mad, They swore the man would die. But soon a wonder came to light, That showed the rogues they lied. The man recovered of the bite, The dog it was that died. =================================== Cheers, The Crazy Brit 8-) (also known as Concrete Head) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 05:58:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04DwLwi010610; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04DwI3G010580; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 08:58:00 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DF4E0214FB01-19A8-13BF@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060104065819.00993a54@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060104065819.00993a54@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That was delightful! Speaking of mad dogs and Englishmen, I have never read the CS Lewis Narnia books; however, I took my 9 yr. old grandson to see "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." It seemed clear the Lewis was influenced by Tolkien. Then again, the greatest influence was from another Source. I found that I knew the story so well that when my grandson despaired at the death of Aslan I said in my best Austrian accent, "Don't worry, he'll be back." When Aslan returned, Caleb said, "Grump grump (his name for me), I thought you said you hadn't read the books." To which I replied, "I have read something quite like them." -----Original Message----- From: Grimer The dog it was that died. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 05:59:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04DwlWf010806; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04Dwh0x010751; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bYqlJXMS78NWVMGTPbQiTg1j2qcOIumqJh1CF+muDF/oOk6Yy9mT6tm0ExC4o6OK+/Lx9Sv/W2AOdcACUbwhB07lbAGNLVbtElbNbKyOkEO7AXMKNKD5I+k3Hn44R5eXDdpoNFDR7ptwlKET3A5mwVrFFNTOshE0FRdOyv3rZfA= ; Message-ID: <20060104135827.21244.qmail@web35007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 05:58:27 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C7DEF1CF00E89F-19A8-CDC@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <3v1YRD.A.4nC.RS9uDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: they would make a tempting target for some psycho with a rifle. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 06:32:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04EU42H031142; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:31:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04E11QZ012119; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:01:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:00:43 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DF4E636250E1-19A8-13CB@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Don't get me wrong, I agree that H2 is a better solution; however, lawyers and accountants have been running the western world for a few decades now. I had the pleasure of doing business with the Japanese once. They have so few lawyers there! -----Original Message----- From: Grimer Lighting doesn't bring down aeroplanes very often. Why should it bring down balloons? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:01:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04F0AEi015738; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:00:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04EhhLT008952; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:43:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:43:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lF6XQ5WVGRD9BPgvgWd+lX4uiSYI981hakH72BMN6D8McQVNsPJoieG0OgKZIwVg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200613414433096@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:43:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e22b2563db480b7685487ae4c890421e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If this is true: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity? Surely the ~5.2 eV H - H or D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV ionization "Temperature" is attained. Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior to ionization? A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies: Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/CORD/leot/course04_mod02/mod04-02.html "Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes" This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". http://industrial.rell.com/et_THthyratrons.asp "Theory of Operation In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch. A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit. Performance Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop. Cooling The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications." More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If this is true:
 
 
Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity?
 
Surely the ~5.2 eV  H - H   or   D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV
ionization "Temperature" is attained.
 
Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior
to ionization?
 
A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies:
 
Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition.
 
 
"Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes"
 
This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". 
 
 
 

"Theory of Operation

In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch.

A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit.

Performance

Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop.

Cooling

The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications."

More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? 

Fred

 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:23:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04FMlUB025137; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04FMiWt025100; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:22:32 -0600 Message-ID: <000201c61142$af5fe950$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20060104135827.21244.qmail@web35007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k04FMXR4024923 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Inquired about investing and they are looking to raise $2M in $50k chunks. Would love to get in at the beginning if I could afford to. I have a sneaky feeling this is going to be popular technology. -john From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:23:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04FMstF025190; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04FMq97025169; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:22:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:22:32 -0600 Message-ID: <000301c61142$afcfe930$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <8C7DF4E0214FB01-19A8-13BF@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k04FMXqZ024927 Resent-Message-ID: <05-cvC.A.KJG.Lh-uDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tolken, Lewis and some other Oxford types were part of a writing/poetry group called The Inklings where they would share and critique each others' projects. It was Lewis who kept after Tolkien to publish his works, but when Lewis read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe to the group, Tolkien didn't like it at all it because Lewis mixed so many different mythologies. BTW, took my son to see it over the weekend as well. I enjoyed the screen adoption, but with like so many attempts to put literature on the big screen too much was glossed over to dial it into a 2hr package. There just is no substitute for reading no mater how good the special effects. Since I am at the point in my life where I spend more time commuting than finding time to sit and read anything, I ordered up the series on audio book CDs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060793260/qid=1136385145/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2 /103-7571815-6256664?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 -j -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:58 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER That was delightful! Speaking of mad dogs and Englishmen, I have never read the CS Lewis Narnia books; however, I took my 9 yr. old grandson to see "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." It seemed clear the Lewis was influenced by Tolkien. Then again, the greatest influence was from another Source. I found that I knew the story so well that when my grandson despaired at the death of Aslan I said in my best Austrian accent, "Don't worry, he'll be back." When Aslan returned, Caleb said, "Grump grump (his name for me), I thought you said you hadn't read the books." To which I replied, "I have read something quite like them." -----Original Message----- From: Grimer The dog it was that died. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:24:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04FNkpF025702; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:23:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04FNXGh025519; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:23:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:23:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,330,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1983409645:sNHT35510538" Message-ID: <6382173.1136388189358.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 7:23:09 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Stephen A. Lawrence ... > Hydrogen has more lift, it's cheaper, and it's easier to contain > (molecule's roughly twice as big, doesn't slip through the pores so > quickly). Helium's a very poor second choice, except for the > flammability issue. > > OTOH hydrogen is explosive in certain circumstances, so you might be > suspected of terrorist activities if it got around that you were making > large amounts of it. > I cast my lot with those who tend to think the main reason helium is being chosen in this intriguing design is due to an overly skewed perception of the dangers that hydrogen pose. The Hindenburg disaster still haunts our minds, and the irony is that hydrogen's flammability issue was the least of the problems that actually caused so much death and destruction when the airship finally crashed to the ground. Unfortunately, hydrogen continues to be unfairly blamed as the reason for so much death and destruction. I believe a recent NOVA TV program installment showed convincing evidence to back up the theory that the highly flammable skin properties of the Hindenburg's fuselage, as well as diesel fuel, were the actual causes for so much death and destruction. Film of the Hindenburg disaster show hydrogen combusting with the surrounding air as an orange ball that quickly goes upwards and AWAY from the air ship. Meanwhile, the film footage clearly shows the highly flammable skin of the airship catching fire and spreading like wildfire throughout the entire skeletal structure as it crashes to the ground. This is followed by explosions from on-board diesel fuel rupturing. Nova was fortunate enough to have obtained a small sample of original skin from the airship. They analyzed its properties. If memory serves me correctly, they finally set part of the skin on fire. It burned as if it was the equivalent of a solid fuel propellant. Had helium been substituted I suspect the Hindenburg would still have caught fire and crashed to the ground. There still would have been a major disaster with probably many lives lost. Hydrogen, however, would not have been blamed for the cause. The most likely cause was due to an unfortunate (and very common) static charge buildup that would likely have ignited the airship's flammable skin. I realize there still exist conspiratorial theories suggesting actual sabotage had been involved, but Occam's razor suggests (a least to me) that Mother Nature was the most likely guilty party. This prejudice, unfortunately, is probably adding unnecessarily to the costs to the intriguing rotary generator. I would therefore agree with those who suggest hydrogen is likely to be a better alternative than more expensive helium. I think the benefits would far outweigh the dangers. It seems to me that if lightening were to strike the rotary design while in operation and fatally rip the fabric apart the structure would crash to the ground regardless of whether it had been filled with helium or hydrogen. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:57:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04Fv371012897; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:57:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04Fv03d012842; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:57:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060104104240.0342a5b8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:56:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall In-Reply-To: <8C7DF4E636250E1-19A8-13CB@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> <8C7DF4E636250E1-19A8-13CB@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >I had the pleasure of doing business with the Japanese once. They >have so few lawyers there! And no building inspectors! That's why Mr. Aneha got away with constructing 89 condominium apartments and hotels that will collapse in an earthquake, because they have only 30% of the required steel support beams. See: http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200512310226.html They also have only a few hundred SEC or insurance inspectors in the whole country, most of them incompetent. That is why stock and insurance fraud are rampant, and thousands of old people are swindled of their life savings every year. Regarding those "few" lawyers they have, and even fewer judges . . . There is a downside. Thousands of victims of war crimes in the 1940s, pollution and asbestos in the 1960s, and stock fraud in the 1990s have been trying to file suits against the government and corporations for decades. Because the law is so delayed and lawsuits take decades, most of the victims will die before the cases go to trial. The cases will be moot, and they and their survivors will never receive a single yen in compensation. See: A. Kerr, "Dogs and Demons: Tales from the Dark Side of Modern Japan." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 07:58:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04FwP7X013587; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:58:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04FwDH4013493; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:58:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060104155752972.ED7C49400085@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060104155752.00a0281c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:57:52 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:22 am 04/01/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Inquired about investing and they are looking to raise $2M in $50k chunks. >Would love to get in at the beginning if I could afford to. I have a sneaky >feeling this is going to be popular technology. > >-john Well, it's certainly logical - and reading through their literature one get a far better impression of their competence than one does of any other new energy proposals. They have a solid track record of achievement in actually building the stuff. Let's hope the tree-huggers don't manage to stymie thing cos of danger to the lesser spotted fruit fly. (sorry - I'm really a bit of a troll at heart ) Frank. (as a boy scout I used to love chopping them down with my little hickory handle Canadian hand-axe). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 08:32:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04GVlKR030664; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:31:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04GVkBA030645; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:31:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:31:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BBF87F.1030202@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall References: <6382173.1136388189358.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> In-Reply-To: <6382173.1136388189358.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_aeRID.A.xeH.yh_uDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks@charter.net wrote: >>From Stephen A. Lawrence > > ... > > >>Hydrogen has more lift, it's cheaper, and it's easier to contain >>(molecule's roughly twice as big, doesn't slip through the pores so >>quickly). Helium's a very poor second choice, except for the >>flammability issue. >> >>OTOH hydrogen is explosive in certain circumstances, so you might be >>suspected of terrorist activities if it got around that you were making >>large amounts of it. >> > > I cast my lot with those who tend to think the main reason helium is > being chosen in this intriguing design is due to an overly skewed > perception of the dangers that hydrogen pose. The Hindenburg > disaster still haunts our minds, and the irony is that hydrogen's > flammability issue was the least of the problems that actually > caused so much death and destruction when the airship finally > crashed to the ground. Unfortunately, hydrogen continues to be > unfairly blamed as the reason for so much death and destruction. > > I believe a recent NOVA TV program installment showed convincing > evidence to back up the theory that the highly flammable skin > properties of the Hindenburg's fuselage, as well as diesel fuel, > were the actual causes for so much death and destruction. Film of > the Hindenburg disaster show hydrogen combusting with the > surrounding air as an orange ball that quickly goes upwards and AWAY > from the air ship. There is something peculiar here. Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame. An _orange_ fireball had to be due to something else then, right? Or is it possible that there was enough crud mixed with the hydrogen to color the flame? (Orange flame typically means sodium, at least in a typical kitchen.) Besides, I thought the footage of the Hindenberg was all black and white? (But maybe that's just because I grew up with a B&W television set, and the first place I saw those newsreels was on that set.) > Meanwhile, the film footage clearly shows the > highly flammable skin of the airship catching fire and spreading > like wildfire throughout the entire skeletal structure as it crashes > to the ground. Again, on the side of the "hydrogen bad" advocates, if the fire were spread in whole or in part by burning hydrogen escaping from one or more ruptured bags, you would probably not see that part at all in the film because its light is all UV. You would just see the flames from the (secondary) fires on the skin, and it would appear that only the skin was burning -- which is indeed how it appeared. But, then again, B&W film from that time was UV sensitive ... but then, again _again_, it's been common since just about forever to use filters to cut the UV when filming, 'cause otherwise everything looks rather hazy. So the UV light from the the hydrogen flames would again most likely have been filtered out and not have been recorded on the film. > This is followed by explosions from on-board diesel > fuel rupturing. > > Nova was fortunate enough to have obtained a small sample of > original skin from the airship. They analyzed its properties. If > memory serves me correctly, they finally set part of the skin on > fire. It burned as if it was the equivalent of a solid fuel > propellant. > > Had helium been substituted I suspect the Hindenburg would still > have caught fire and crashed to the ground. There still would have > been a major disaster with probably many lives lost. Hydrogen, > however, would not have been blamed for the cause. The most likely > cause was due to an unfortunate (and very common) static charge > buildup that would likely have ignited the airship's flammable > skin. That's sure what I heard when I was growing up -- it was believed to have been a static charge, which resulted in a small lightning bolt jumping from the mooring tower to the dirigible. > I realize there still exist conspiratorial theories suggesting > actual sabotage had been involved, but Occam's razor suggests (a > least to me) that Mother Nature was the most likely guilty party. > > This prejudice, unfortunately, is probably adding unnecessarily to > the costs to the intriguing rotary generator. I would therefore > agree with those who suggest hydrogen is likely to be a better > alternative than more expensive helium. I think the benefits would > far outweigh the dangers. It seems to me that if lightening were to > strike the rotary design while in operation and fatally rip the > fabric apart the structure would crash to the ground regardless of > whether it had been filled with helium or hydrogen. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 08:43:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04GgfZZ005597; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:42:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04GgdIi005557; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:42:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:42:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003d01c6114d$d74a1bb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060103231753.00a091b8@pop.freeserve.net> <43BB31B9.8070501@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:42:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Hydrogen has more lift, it's cheaper, and it's easier to contain > (molecule's roughly twice as big, doesn't slip through the pores > so quickly). For the record - yes, the hydrogen molecule is actual bigger in the 'long 'dimension than helium because the helium 'molecule' is the *same* monatomic unit as the atom. IOW there is NO such animal as He2, and the helium atom itself is quite compact, due to the higher bonding energies of the electrons. OK that much is true. But the decision to use helium these days is both political and economic - but not really related to any significant (true scientific) explosion risk. The so-called 'cheapness' of hydrogen quickly disappears when other cost factors are added-in. Furthermore, it should be noted that the real problem is that hydrogen IS considerably harder to contain - but not because of its molecular size. It is harder to contain only because it quickly forms ions and free protons at the interface of many materials, even non-electrical-conductors ... and, yes, the lone proton IS indeed millions of times smaller than any molecule. The nucleus is ~10,000 times less diameter than the atom, and the volume size difference would be the square of that - now that IS a huge difference compared to helium. Many nonmetals, even ceramics, are good proton conductors (and that is why we have fuel cells) and in general the 'problem' with hydrogen - and its resultant higher "net cost" was in finding a thin non-porous AND non-proton-conductor for coating the fabric skin of the LTA airships to prevent losses. There is little problem with helium 'bags', which need no complicated coating as does hydrogen. Almost any rubber or plastic based paint will contain helium whereas most of these same coatings are proton conductors. The proton is extremely mobile at the quantum level. The cost and extra weight of hydrogen *containment* in the LTA, therefore outweighs the much higher cost of helium compared to hydrogen, and when you add in the higher weight of the special coatings (often double) then there is little 'net' weight saving over helium. The real 'problem' with Hindenburg - as all careful historians have noted: 'paint' not the 'fill.' That and Germany having no helium resources. Which is what makes this subject matter "On Topic" for LENR as arguably the very genesis of LENR is to be found in the German (European) attempts to manufacture helium from hydrogen - since the USA had the monopoly on helium in that time period. It was the airship coating - the paint - which caught fire initially. The coating was a resin containing aluminum powder - thus the 'silver' color. The powdered aluminum in the paint, and probably in proximity to an engine exhaust manifold, caused the fire, not the hydrogen, which when it burns produces no color - so you would have seen no 'fire' anyway from just hydrogen, had that been the problem. All of this is well documented in the literature by now, but as these messages on Vortex demonstrate, not well understood or appreciated by even the most interested observers. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 09:04:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04H4JLX016814; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:04:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04H4FXR016776; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:04:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:04:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,330,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1904174362:sNHT19390156" Message-ID: <7189798.1136393882700.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 8:58:02 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings Stephen, (and Mr. Beene as well) >From Stephen A. Lawrence ... > There is something peculiar here. Hydrogen burns with an invisible > flame. An _orange_ fireball had to be due to something else then, > right? Or is it possible that there was enough crud mixed with the > hydrogen to color the flame? (Orange flame typically means sodium, at > least in a typical kitchen.) > > Besides, I thought the footage of the Hindenberg was all black and > white? (But maybe that's just because I grew up with a B&W television > set, and the first place I saw those newsreels was on that set.) I yield to your memories on this subject. I'm sure the original film was most likely B&W. No doubt the color "Orange" was added (for effect) later. However, I personally recall seeing demonstrations of burning hydrogen in a lab. The instructor would fill balloons with "pure" hydrogen then ignite the balloon with a torch. After the balloon popped I always recalled seeing an "orange" flame linger for a fraction of a second before disappearing. Were there impurities in the hydrogen? Perhaps. I really don't know. OTOH, when the instructor mixed oxygen in with the hydrogen and torched the balloon there would be a much more impressive explosion - and no orange flame that I could discern. Never the less, with that said, after reading Mr. Beens's comments about the advantages helium have over hydrogen I think I'll switch my opinion back to favoring helium. It's never too late to admit one's that one's opinions might have been flawed. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 09:35:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04HYknA030821; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:34:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04HYjxW030791; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:34:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:34:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Se8FQfoScAPdrXzDGjhUQXXMUAEwZnPXOBUsNvCxf78QL3kH07HK8sR2XORH/rbR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006134173425673@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:34:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f3db7c9985d3e6cbbfaf13854f0a21bc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.184 Resent-Message-ID: <9VdNqB.A.DhH.0cAvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". > It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one that drove Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate. http://industrial.rell.com/et_Hthyratrons.asp Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER If this is true: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity? Surely the ~5.2 eV H - H or D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV ionization "Temperature" is attained. Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior to ionization? A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies: Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/CORD/leot/course04_mod02/mod04-02.html "Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes" This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". http://industrial.rell.com/et_THthyratrons.asp "Theory of Operation In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch. A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit. Performance Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop. Cooling The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications." More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
>
> This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR".
>
It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used
a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one
that drove  Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate.
 
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

If this is true:
 
 
Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity?
 
Surely the ~5.2 eV  H - H   or   D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV
ionization "Temperature" is attained.
 
Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior
to ionization?
 
A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies:
 
Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition.
 
 
"Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes"
 
This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". 
 
 
 

"Theory of Operation

In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch.

A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit.

Performance

Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop.

Cooling

The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications."

More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? 

Fred

 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 09:44:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04Hhxpo002717; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:44:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04Hhqvi002662; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:43:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:43:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:43:36 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Chelation therapy for aortic calcification -was: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Message-ID: <20060104174336.GA22437@linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> <8C7DEF6B52EFD53-19A8-D93@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8C7DEF6B52EFD53-19A8-D93@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many people say that chelation therapy has remedied calcification and blockage of blood vessels, enabling them to resume an active life free of heart and circulatory problems. However, the official medical line is that it doesn't work. The original procedure consists of many sessions in which a solution of EDTA or other chelating agent is infused intravenously. Chelating agents are molecules with two or more bonding sites, which attract and tightly hold certain elements, such as calcium, that are then excreted in the urine. Even oral administration of the chelators may be effective (and is much cheaper), and they can be bought without prescription in pill form in healthfood stores. http://www.medhelp.org/forums/cardio/messages/32283.html http://www.google.com/search?as_q=acam+chelation&num=100 http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22chelation+therapy%22&num=100 http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22aortic+calcification%22+chelation&num=100 On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:33:05PM -0500, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >It's been a difficult day. I didn't mean to short-change you. My boss >has learned he has "senile aortic calcification" and must get a valve >job. I never even heard of the disease. He's been briefing me on my >new responsibilities for the next two months. All the responsibilities >but no rise in pay. >... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 09:48:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04Hli5R004158; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:47:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04HlgFj004134; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:47:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:47:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060104174727986.F0D2AB000084@mwinf3213.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060104174727.00a155a8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:47:27 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:22 am 04/01/2006 -0600, John wrote: > There just is no substitute for reading no mater... There certainly isn't, pater. (sorry - I just couldn't resist the juxtaposition) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 11:09:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04J13aE026550; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:09:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04IBkK7011267; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BC0EB8.8040105@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:06:48 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chelation therapy for aortic calcification -was: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> <8C7DEF6B52EFD53-19A8-D93@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <20060104174336.GA22437@linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20060104174336.GA22437@linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark S Bilk wrote: > Many people say that chelation therapy has remedied calcification > and blockage of blood vessels, enabling them to resume an active > life free of heart and circulatory problems. However, the > official medical line is that it doesn't work. The original > procedure consists of many sessions in which a solution of EDTA > or other chelating agent is infused intravenously. Chelating > agents are molecules with two or more bonding sites, which > attract and tightly hold certain elements, such as calcium, > that are then excreted in the urine. Even oral administration > of the chelators may be effective (and is much cheaper), and > they can be bought without prescription in pill form in > healthfood stores. Chelation of _CALCIUM_?? But your body tries to actively maintain a particular level of calcium in the blood, and pulls it from your bones, if necessary, to keep the level in what it believes to be the right range. If you pull the calcium level down in your blood, why would you not just be, in effect, pulling it directly out of your bones? I would be very hesitant about doing this to myself unless I knew a lot more about the potential side effects. A vegan diet, which has also been shown to reduce plaque deposits on artery walls, seems a lot safer. > > http://www.medhelp.org/forums/cardio/messages/32283.html > http://www.google.com/search?as_q=acam+chelation&num=100 > http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22chelation+therapy%22&num=100 > http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22aortic+calcification%22+chelation&num=100 > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 10:33:05PM -0500, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >>It's been a difficult day. I didn't mean to short-change you. My boss >>has learned he has "senile aortic calcification" and must get a valve >>job. I never even heard of the disease. It's the Revenge of the Cows. Hardening of the arteries is given all kinds of specialized names, depending on exactly which artery gets the buildup, but it's all the same thing, really. "Senile" => it mostly happens to older people (it's a slow-onset disease so teenagers don't usually suffer from it). "Aortic" => it happened to be the main artery leaving his heart which is getting blocked up. "Calcification" => it's a long-standing plaque deposit and is partly calcified. "Must have surgery" => the doctor giving the opinion is a surgeon. Diseases such as this are unheard-of in countries where meat and dairy products are priced out of reach of nearly everybody. >>He's been briefing me on my >>new responsibilities for the next two months. All the responsibilities >>but no rise in pay. >>... > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 11:10:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04J13aG026550; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:09:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04ILSro014116; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:21:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:21:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Tpn8OPHvn+ByKGyD4e6M1PLiZmzoYvSwMp4sgRFJtYeLxpyllWnug+GxZd93aY2S; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200613418211664@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: O. T. Interesting Trivia Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:21:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e6bfeb819f6198e8091dbce6a00a182f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.93 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject:Re: Interesting..... In the 1400's a law was set forth in England that a man was allowed to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb. Hence we have "the rule of thumb" ------------------------------------------- Many years ago in Scotland, a new game was invented. It was ruled "Gentlemen Only...Ladies Forbidden"...and thus the word GOLF entered into the English language. ------------------------------------------- The first couple to be shown in bed together on prime time TV were Fred and Wilma Flintstone. ------------------------------------------- Every day more money is printed for Monopoly than the U.S.Treasury. ------------------------------------------- Men can read smaller print than women can; women can hear better. ------------------------------------------- Coca-Cola was originally green. ------------------------------------------- It is impossible to lick your elbow. ------------------------------------------- The State with the highest percentage of people who walk to work: Alaska ------------------------------------------- The percentage of Africa that is wilderness: 28% (now get this...) ------------------------------------------- The percentage of North America that is wilderness: 38% ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The cost of raising a medium-size dog to the age of eleven: $6,400 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The average number of people airborne over the U.S. in any given hour: 61,000 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Intelligent people have more zinc and copper in their hair. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first novel ever written on a typewriter: Tom Sawyer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The San Francisco Cable cars are the only mobile National Monuments. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Each king in a deck of playing cards represents a great king from history: Spades - King David Hearts - Charlemagne Clubs -Alexander, the Great Diamonds - Julius Caesar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If a statue in the park of a person on a horse has both front legs in the air, the person died in battle. If the horse has one front leg in the air the person died as a result of wounds received in battle. If the horse has all four legs on the ground, the person died of natural causes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only two people signed the Declaration of Independence on July 4th, John Hancock and Charles Thomson. Most of the rest signed on August 2, but the last signature wasn't added until 5 years later. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Half of all Americans live within 50 miles of what? A. Their birthplace -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Most boat owners name their boats. What is the most popular boat name requested? A. Obsession ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. If you were to spell out numbers, how far would you have to go until you would find the letter "A"? A. One thousand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. What do bulletproof vests, fire escapes, windshield wipers, and laser printers all have in common? A. All were invented by women. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. What is the only food that doesn't spoil? A. Honey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Which day are there more collect calls than any other day of the year? A. Father's Day ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Shakespeare's time, mattresses were secured on bed frames by ropes. When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened, making the bed firmer to sleep on. Hence the phrase......... "goodnight, sleep tight." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was the accepted practice in Babylon 4,000 years ago that for a month after the wedding, the bride's father would supply his son-in-law with all the mead he could drink. Mead is a honey beer and because their calendar was lunar based, this period was called the honey month, which we know today as the honeymoon. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts... So in old England, when customers got unruly, the bartender would yell at them "Mind your pints and quarts, and settle down." It's where we get the phrase "mind your P's and Q's" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many years ago in England, pub frequenters had a whistle baked into the rim, or handle, of their ceramic cups. When they needed a refill, they used the whistle to get some service. "Wet your whistle" is the phrase inspired by this practice. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~AND FINALLY~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At least 75% of people who read this will try to lick their elbow! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't delete this just because it looks weird. Believe it or not, you can read it. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit plae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Subject:Re: Interesting.....

 In the 1400's a law was set forth in England that a man was
allowed to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his
thumb.  Hence we have "the rule of thumb"
              -------------------------------------------
            Many years ago in Scotland, a new game was invented. It was
ruled "Gentlemen Only...Ladies Forbidden"...and thus the word
GOLF entered  into the English language.
              -------------------------------------------
            The first couple to be shown in bed together on prime time TV
were Fred and Wilma Flintstone.
-------------------------------------------
            Every day more money is printed for Monopoly than the
U.S.Treasury.
-------------------------------------------
            Men can read smaller print than women can; women can hear
better.  -------------------------------------------
              Coca-Cola was originally green.
            -------------------------------------------
              It is impossible to lick your elbow.
            -------------------------------------------
              The State with the highest percentage of people who walk to
work: Alaska
            ---------------------! -------- --------------
            The percentage of Africa that is wilderness: 28% (now get
this...)  -------------------------------------------
            The percentage of North America that is wilderness: 38%
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            The cost of raising a medium-size dog to the age of eleven:
$6,400
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              The average number of people airborne over the U.S. in any
given hour: 61,000
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Intelligent people have more zinc and copper in their hair.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              The first novel ever written on a typewriter: Tom Sawyer.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             The San Francisco Cable cars are the only mobile National
Monuments.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           &n! bsp; Eac h king in a deck of playing cards represents a great king
from history:
            Spades - King David
            Hearts - Charlemagne
            Clubs -Alexander, the Great
            Diamonds - Julius Caesar
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If a statue in the park of a person on a horse has both
front legs in the air, the person died in battle. If the
horse has one front leg in the air  the person died as a
result of wounds received in battle. If the horse has all
four legs on the ground, the person died of natural causes.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Only two people signed the Declaration of Independence on
July 4th, John Hancock and Charles Thomson.  Most of the
rest signed on August 2, but the last signature wasn't added
until 5 years later.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Q. Half of all Americans live within 50 miles of what?
 &n! bsp;&nbs p;         A. Their birthplace
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. Most boat owners name their boats. What is the most popular
boat name requested?  A. Obsession
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Q. If you were to spell out numbers, how far would you have
to go until you would find the letter "A"?  A. One thousand
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Q. What do bulletproof vests, fire escapes, windshield
wipers, and laser printers all have in common?  A. All were
invented by women.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Q. What is the only food that doesn't spoil?
            A. Honey
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Q. Which day are there more collect calls than any other day
of the year?  A. Father's Day
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 In Shakespeare's time, mattresses were secured on bed frames
by ropes. When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened,
making the bed firmer to sleep on. Hence the phrase.........
"goodnight, sleep tight."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------! -------- --------
             It was the accepted practice in Babylon 4,000 years ago that
for a month after the wedding, the bride's father would
supply his son-in-law with all the mead he could drink. Mead
is a honey beer and because their calendar was lunar based,
this period was called the honey month, which we know today
as the honeymoon.
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts... So in
old England, when customers got unruly, the bartender would
yell at them "Mind your pints and quarts, and settle down."
            It's where we get the phrase "mind your P's and Q's"
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many years ago in England, pub frequenters had a whistle baked
into the rim, or handle, of their ceramic cups.  When they
needed a refill, they used the whistle to get some service.
"Wet your whistle" is the phrase inspired  by this practice.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              ~~~~~~~~~~~AND FINALLY~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            At least 75% of people who read this will try to lick their
elbow!
              -------------! -------- ----------------------------------------------------
Don't delete this just because it looks weird. Believe it or
not, you can read it.
            I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty
            uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The
            phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde  Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the
            ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the
frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit  plae. The rset can be a
taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs
is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by
istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 11:10:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04J13aI026550; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:09:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04HvoHk007833; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:57:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:57:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Z87POFCbaEs+HZukAplTzucHdr+44ZrqfLrNT+2nUmBQiRQ25gb8ei59iM0O3K4ZKPnLcxUPrGmQvbVRRou/qkCKaxFloyPzkmcBhyDsFe2+OXUdH3ceZjoAdYFcpvrEkqCD5hDo+hIKVw+DqwXSgUpPu9Dyv+/MtYpD6KC/XGI= ; Message-ID: <20060104175739.63450.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:57:39 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: 13 things that don't make sense To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7VWtZD.A.V6B.dyAvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: New scientist ran a year-end list titled "13 things that do not make sense" http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600 This is a list of definite scientific phenomena which mainstream physics can't explain. Included on the list are placebos (#1), High energy cosmic rays (#3), tetraneutrons (#7), and cold fusion (#13). It's light on details, but does present CF as a real effect which is just not properly understood by accepted science. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 11:11:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04J13aK026550; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:10:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04HXRm2030334; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:33:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:33:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060104173312664.A20BE1C0008C@mwinf3204.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060104173312.00a1a3b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:33:12 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:23 am 04/01/2006 -0800, you wrote: >From Stephen A. Lawrence > >... > >> Hydrogen has more lift, it's cheaper, and it's easier to contain >> (molecule's roughly twice as big, doesn't slip through the pores so >> quickly). Helium's a very poor second choice, except for the >> flammability issue. >> >> OTOH hydrogen is explosive in certain circumstances, so you might be >> suspected of terrorist activities if it got around that you were making >> large amounts of it. >> > > I cast my lot with those who tend to think the > main reason helium is being chosen in this > intriguing design is due to an overly skewed > perception of the dangers that hydrogen pose. > The Hindenburg disaster still haunts our minds, > and the irony is that hydrogen's flammability > issue was the least of the problems that actually > caused so much death and destruction when the > airship finally crashed to the ground... The thing that's always amazed me about the Hindenburg disaster is how relatively little there was of "death and destruction when the airship finally crashed to the ground." Of the 97 people on board only 35 were killed and 22 of those were crew who are paid to put their lives on the line. An 83% passenger survivability figure bear excellent comparison with statistics for modern airline crashes or the Titanic Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 12:09:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04K8uIt000357; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:09:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04K1WeH027814; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:01:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:01:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:00:56 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DF80B5805090-1B50-186E7@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7DEA0416AB239-171C-8CC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> <43BAB8F6.60506@pobox.com> <8C7DEF6B52EFD53-19A8-D93@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <20060104174336.GA22437@linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <20060104174336.GA22437@linux.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Chelation therapy for aortic calcification Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <6qD7C.A.UyG.amCvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks! I forwarded this to him with the usual caveats. The thing which bugs me about this rush to surgery is his lack of symptoms. It was found by the sudden appearance of a murmur. -----Original Message----- From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:43:36 -0800 Subject: Chelation therapy for aortic calcification -was: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER Many people say that chelation therapy has remedied calcification and blockage of blood vessels, enabling them to resume an active life free of heart and circulatory problems. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 12:21:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04KKqdN009821; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04KJoHR008936; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:19:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:19:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:04:07 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7DF8127A88AB8-1B50-186FF@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> <8C7DF4E636250E1-19A8-13CB@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060104104240.0342a5b8@mindspring.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060104104240.0342a5b8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k04KJZCB008746 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You do seem to always find the cloud inside the silver lining. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell   And no building inspectors! ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 14:02:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04M1QL0025372; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:01:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04M1O3B025340; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:01:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:01:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c601c6117a$5a541520$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060104173312.00a1a3b0@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: LTA: was Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:01:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given the SF 'grounding' of several Vo's - along with the propensity to go from the scientific to the transendental without skipping a beat, I am a little surprised that no one mentioned the "Riverworld" stories of Philip Jose Farmer - where an LTA is featured - possibly as a metaphorical vehicle. Certainly not other craft made by man has the same kind of cloud-like intrigue and angelic allure as the airship. In fact, from a technological standpoint Farmer may be the first to have suggested that helium be _heated_ for added lift, using the exhaust of whatever motor is driving the craft (possibly others thought of it first - does anyone know?) This is the same principle of the hot-air ballon, of course, but with the added benefit of helium. Add a hundred-or-so degrees of heat to helium and it gives about the same buoancy as hydrogen with some added safety. Airhsips have two envelopes anyway, and with some small re-engineering to thermally insulate the hot bags from the colder exterior shell... voila. Heat exchangers can be very lightweight. A ten pound heat exchanger - mounted on the hot exhaust of a LTA's motor could transfer enough heat to the helium to provide several thousand pounds of extra payload capacity or to create the smaller version we are all awainting (at least in lucid dreams - the PB = personal blimp). Farmer's theological premise, and that of many scientists, is that society's idea of life-after-death is an outdated relic, originally concieved in order to add a layer of institutionalized "control" for the populace, but under the guise of it being voluntary. Many of the near-death reports lead the objective observer to suspect that the initial afterlife experience is self-created by expectation - with the further implication that we actually "create" our total afterlife, for however long it continues - based on beliefs held prior. Too bad for Dante. Anyway, please DO NOT attempt to futher expound on that theological thesis on vortex. It is more befiting another forum. The thing Farmer is best remembered for - by me at least, is the idea of a "hot helium" airship... which does make a lot of sense for the future, doesn't it? (given that the Storm's LENR reactor will be producing all that free-helium anyway - not to mention the excess heat needed to give it added buoancy ;-) Why settle for a Prius when the CF-PB is close at hand? Save you money for a super-size-it garage! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 14:29:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k04MTZoP007218; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:29:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k04MTTx0007161; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:29:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:29:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tS+4qFE/1doeVM5PnDPxRBTxD/Go2BnHAIjp0Xl+gPtZ5lLQkiuz7iJ5T/vjJ/Dr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006134222912411@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Titanium Deuteride Thyratron Reservoir, Was OCCULT.... Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:29:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940109627222fe50b60a3600b7eb1107469350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The 200 mile range Search Radars that I'm familiar with used a fan -cooled Hydrogen Thyratron about 2 feet tall x 10 inches diameter , that dumped 50 kilovolts into the magnetron at a rep rate of 400 pulses per second. The literature says Deuterium (stored in the reservoir as Titanium Deuteride) is used for operation at higher voltages. Earthtech's work on the Mills' Hydrinos. http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 10:34:52 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". > It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one that drove Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate. http://industrial.rell.com/et_Hthyratrons.asp Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER If this is true: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity? Surely the ~5.2 eV H - H or D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV ionization "Temperature" is attained. Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior to ionization? A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies: Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/CORD/leot/course04_mod02/mod04-02.html "Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes" This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". http://industrial.rell.com/et_THthyratrons.asp "Theory of Operation In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch. A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit. Performance Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop. Cooling The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications." More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The 200 mile range Search Radars that I'm familiar with
used a fan -cooled Hydrogen Thyratron about 2 feet tall x 10 inches
diameter , that dumped 50 kilovolts into the magnetron at a rep rate of
400 pulses per second.
The literature says Deuterium (stored in the reservoir as Titanium Deuteride) is used for operation at higher voltages.
 
Earthtech's work on the Mills' Hydrinos.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 10:34:52 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

>
> This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR".
>
It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used
a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one
that drove  Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

If this is true:
 
 
Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity?
 
Surely the ~5.2 eV  H - H   or   D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV
ionization "Temperature" is attained.
 
Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior
to ionization?
 
A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies:
 
Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition.
 
 
"Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes"
 
This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". 
 
 
 

"Theory of Operation

In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch.

A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit.

Performance

Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop.

Cooling

The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications."

More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? 

Fred

 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 4 16:59:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k050xRxs010528; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:59:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k050xQxB010517; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:59:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c61193$36883a40$2c027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: More questions Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:58:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61160.EB429620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <82oSz.A.QkC.t9GvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61160.EB429620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61160.EB45A360" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61160.EB45A360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWe succeeded in generating a near perfect cylinder shaped vortex = "rope" by mechanically inducing the rotation above 7000 rpm. The shape of the "cylinder " remends me of a small scale hurricane = center with the vertical wall. We did not measure anything with a hand = held rad meter. We did not see any visible light in the vortex. The = vortex did remain fixed whereas at lower speeds below 3500 rpm the = vortex resembled a tornado twisting like a snake. Question One anyone know where we can purchase (or have fabricated) = a section of permanent magnet, the section being cylindrical pipe shaped = sized like 6 " sch 160 pipe x 2 feet length ? Question two We want to experiment using solenoids to generate a = magnetic path thru the wall of a 6" pipe. Anyone ever have experience = with experinets using frequency controllers in an attempt to "cycle" the = current applied to the solenoids at ultra high frequencies approaching = resonance frequency of water? Tell me it can't be done. Questiuon three anyone ever try using a microwave burst aimed into the = center of a vortex?=20 Question four anyone ever try laser light aimed into the center of the = vortex? What range ? It took us long enough to finally get a unit to withstand high speeds.. = we are eager to start the next phase. Thanks all. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61160.EB45A360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
We succeeded in generating a near perfect cylinder shaped vortex = "rope" by=20 mechanically inducing the rotation above 7000 rpm.
The shape of the "cylinder "  remends me of a small scale = hurricane=20 center with the vertical wall. We did not measure anything with a hand = held rad=20 meter. We did not see any visible light in the vortex. The vortex did = remain=20 fixed whereas at lower speeds below 3500 rpm the vortex resembled a = tornado=20 twisting like a snake.
 
Question One      anyone know where we can = purchase (or have fabricated) a section of permanent magnet, the section = being=20 cylindrical pipe shaped sized like 6 " sch 160 pipe  x 2 feet = length=20 ?
 
Question two     We want to experiment=20 using solenoids to generate a magnetic path thru the wall of a = 6"=20 pipe. Anyone ever have experience with experinets using frequency = controllers in=20 an attempt to "cycle" the current applied to the solenoids at ultra high = frequencies approaching resonance frequency of water? Tell me it can't = be=20 done.
 
Questiuon three   anyone ever try using a microwave burst = aimed=20 into the center of a vortex?
 
Question four  anyone ever try laser light aimed into the = center of=20 the vortex? What range ?
 
It took us long enough to finally get a unit to withstand high = speeds.. we=20 are eager to start the next phase.
Thanks all.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61160.EB45A360-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61160.EB429620 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c61193$35a30a60$2c027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61160.EB429620-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 02:07:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05A7Xu0018453; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:07:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05A7TYn018403; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:07:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:03:30 -0600 From: temalloy@usfamily.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Patterson Cell et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This morning's guest on C to C AM was Keith Morgan www.kbmorgan.com who works as a electronic technician for ABC's Nightline. He started out by recounting his adventures with Richard C Hoagland of www.enterprisemission.com . Richard and Keith have been doing various mathametical analysis of the face and the city on Mars. They recounted how an element of the NASA establishment have done their best to thwart their efforts to make the public aware of their findings. Then he moved on to over unity energy production. First of all he mentioned the Reed Motor, AFAIK, Troy was never able to get it to work. .He started our by mentioning a man with a water powered dune buggy. Well we all know who that was. Thrn he mentioned the Patterson Cell. He claimed that the cell was producing between 1 to 1.4 KW on heat output with an input of microvolts. He went on to recount how Patterson added radioneuclides to the water surrounding the cell and how the Geiger counter counts dropped to zero over a period of a few hours. This is the first time I've heard that story. Keith's website has an analysis of the pictures, which I'd like to call your attention. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 04:02:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05C2MQw001002; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:02:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05C2JEc000980; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:02:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jSc8204RlDm42igBzBzkuKxw0FwpfwZtCzb7g8u4GBruiMAlE68EFCqZJWulcXNT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200614512150396@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Deuterium Implantation in Nickel Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:01:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94021f4cfbbf3bf42d4350b9f0e8f9a7f57350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.249 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interesting experiment at Kyoto University. The pdf if stubborn but workable. http://www.hrc.toyama-u.ac.jp/workshop2001/workshop2001_09.pdf " A lamp heats up the sample while the upstream side of the sample is exposed to deuterium rf-plasma. Permeation flux to the downstream is monitored. After the permeation reaches at the steady state, an ion beam of helium-3 irradiates the plasma-exposed side at 45 degree to normal to observe a depth profile of deuterium by use of the nuclear reaction analysis (NRA) with a reaction of D(3He,p)4He.4 In order to produce traps, the membrane is bombarded with energetic ions such as helium (0.8 MeV) and hydrogen (0.3 MeV) between the observation of NRA. RESULTS Depth profiles of deuterium in nickel bombarded with helium-3 are shown in Fig.2.5 Before bombardment, deuterium exists only on the surface and little deuterium is observed in the bulk. After the bombardment, a broad peak " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Interesting experiment at  Kyoto University.
 
The pdf if stubborn but workable.
 
 

" A lamp heats up the sample while the upstream side of the sample is exposed to deuterium rf-plasma. Permeation flux to the downstream is monitored.

After the permeation reaches at the steady state, an ion beam of helium-3 irradiates the plasma-exposed side at 45 degree to normal to observe a depth profile of deuterium by use of the nuclear reaction analysis (NRA) with a reaction of D(3He,p)4He.4 In order to produce traps, the membrane is bombarded with energetic ions such as helium (0.8 MeV) and hydrogen (0.3 MeV) between the observation of NRA.

RESULTS Depth profiles of deuterium in nickel bombarded with helium-3 are shown in Fig.2.5 Before bombardment, deuterium exists only on the surface and little deuterium is observed in the bulk. After the bombardment, a broad peak "

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 04:41:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05CfDeW014560; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:41:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05CfAuE014526; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:41:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mezj/FQIs6OEDhjY4YXqSGYbAh8cXNNjaCpg4QvTe35HcXxwnIW39kKqAmpozNl0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006145124047213@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Titanium Deuteride Thyratron Reservoir Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:40:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940054e8236550b0890874f4d5e481ca8de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.149 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I see no reason why the heated Titanium reservoir in the thyratrons cannot act as sublimation pumps and/or implantation targets for H2 or D2.during the plasma http://www.vacgen.com/asp/catalogue.asp?url=http%3A//www.vacgen.com/catalogue/section-7/page07_16.htm&frame=1 "The ZST22 Titanium Sublimation Pump (TSP) consists of 3 removable hairpin shaped filaments. They are made from an alloy of Titanium and Molybdenum and are mounted in a simple carrier designed to have low electrical resistance. A high current, from an external power supply, is passed through the filament such that it glows red hot, at this temperature Titanium is sublimated directly from the filament (Ti vapour is produced from solid without becoming the liquid phase). This sublimated evaporant then coats the nearby walls of the chamber Temperature Effect of Titanium Film Pumping Speed in ls-1cm-2 Gas SpeciesH2N2O2COCO2H2OCH2Inerts + 20°C34998300 - 196°C1010111191400 Temperature is of condensing wall and shows resultant pumping speed of Ti film ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/5/2006 5:02:29 AM Subject: Re: Deuterium Implantation in Nickel Interesting experiment at Kyoto University. The pdf if stubborn but workable. http://www.hrc.toyama-u.ac.jp/workshop2001/workshop2001_09.pdf " A lamp heats up the sample while the upstream side of the sample is exposed to deuterium rf-plasma. Permeation flux to the downstream is monitored. After the permeation reaches at the steady state, an ion beam of helium-3 irradiates the plasma-exposed side at 45 degree to normal to observe a depth profile of deuterium by use of the nuclear reaction analysis (NRA) with a reaction of D(3He,p)4He.4 In order to produce traps, the membrane is bombarded with energetic ions such as helium (0.8 MeV) and hydrogen (0.3 MeV) between the observation of NRA. RESULTS Depth profiles of deuterium in nickel bombarded with helium-3 are shown in Fig.2.5 Before bombardment, deuterium exists only on the surface and little deuterium is observed in the bulk. After the bombardment, a broad peak " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 3:29:40 PM Subject: Re: Titanium Deuteride Thyratron Reservoir, Was OCCULT.... The 200 mile range Search Radars that I'm familiar with used a fan -cooled Hydrogen Thyratron about 2 feet tall x 10 inches diameter , that dumped 50 kilovolts into the magnetron at a rep rate of 400 pulses per second. The literature says Deuterium (stored in the reservoir as Titanium Deuteride) is used for operation at higher voltages. Earthtech's work on the Mills' Hydrinos. http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 10:34:52 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER > > This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". > It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one that drove Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate. http://industrial.rell.com/et_Hthyratrons.asp Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER If this is true: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity? Surely the ~5.2 eV H - H or D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV ionization "Temperature" is attained. Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior to ionization? A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies: Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/CORD/leot/course04_mod02/mod04-02.html "Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes" This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". http://industrial.rell.com/et_THthyratrons.asp "Theory of Operation In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch. A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit. Performance Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop. Cooling The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications." More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
I see no reason why the heated Titanium reservoir in the thyratrons cannot
act as sublimation pumps and/or implantation targets for H2 or D2.during the plasma
 
 
 
"The ZST22 Titanium Sublimation Pump (TSP) consists of 3 removable hairpin shaped filaments. They are made from an alloy of Titanium and Molybdenum and are mounted in a simple carrier designed to have low electrical resistance. A high current, from an external power supply, is passed through the filament such that it glows red hot, at this temperature Titanium is sublimated directly from the filament (Ti vapour is produced from solid without becoming the liquid phase). This sublimated evaporant then coats the nearby walls of the chamber
 
Temperature Effect of Titanium Film
Pumping Speed in ls-1cm-2
Gas Species H2 N2 O2 CO CO2 H2O CH2 Inerts
+ 20°C 3 4 9 9 8 3 0 0
- 196°C 10 10 11 11 9 14 0 0
Temperature is of condensing wall and shows resultant pumping speed of Ti film
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/5/2006 5:02:29 AM
Subject: Re: Deuterium Implantation in Nickel

Interesting experiment at  Kyoto University.
 
The pdf if stubborn but workable.
 
 

" A lamp heats up the sample while the upstream side of the sample is exposed to deuterium rf-plasma. Permeation flux to the downstream is monitored.

After the permeation reaches at the steady state, an ion beam of helium-3 irradiates the plasma-exposed side at 45 degree to normal to observe a depth profile of deuterium by use of the nuclear reaction analysis (NRA) with a reaction of D(3He,p)4He.4 In order to produce traps, the membrane is bombarded with energetic ions such as helium (0.8 MeV) and hydrogen (0.3 MeV) between the observation of NRA.

RESULTS Depth profiles of deuterium in nickel bombarded with helium-3 are shown in Fig.2.5 Before bombardment, deuterium exists only on the surface and little deuterium is observed in the bulk. After the bombardment, a broad peak "

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 3:29:40 PM
Subject: Re: Titanium Deuteride Thyratron Reservoir, Was OCCULT....

The 200 mile range Search Radars that I'm familiar with
used a fan -cooled Hydrogen Thyratron about 2 feet tall x 10 inches
diameter , that dumped 50 kilovolts into the magnetron at a rep rate of
400 pulses per second.
The literature says Deuterium (stored in the reservoir as Titanium Deuteride) is used for operation at higher voltages.
 
Earthtech's work on the Mills' Hydrinos.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 10:34:52 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

>
> This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR".
>
It also smacks of Randy Mills' early experiment that used
a KNO3 "Reservoir" next to a hot W filament in an H2 filled device. The one
that drove  Scott Little at Earthtech. nuts trying to replicate.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/4/2006 8:01:01 AM
Subject: Re: OCCULT ETHER PHYSICS vs BETA AETHER

If this is true:
 
 
Why aren't the Hydrogen Thyratrons Over-Unity?
 
Surely the ~5.2 eV  H - H   or   D - D bond will sever before the 13.6 eV
ionization "Temperature" is attained.
 
Or, are the thermionic electrons "catalyzing" bond fission prior
to ionization?
 
A good tutorial on gaseous conduction and laser power supplies:
 
Dot edu websites are a lot cheaper than college tuition.
 
 
"Figure 13 shows a simplified typical internal structure for a thyratron. The anode is usually of copper or molybdenum and the cathode of tungsten, coated to increase its emission of electrons. The baffle located behind the grid shields the grid from stray electrons emitted by the cathode. The reservoir contains a material like titanium hydride (or deuteride). When the reservoir is heated it establishes an equilibrium vapor pressure of hydrogen. This is necessary because hydrogen is absorbed by the tube and the electrodes"
 
This sounds like Ed Storms' "Gas Phase LENR". 
 
 
 

"Theory of Operation

In its simplest form, the thyratron contains an anode, control grid, thermionic cathode and a ceramic or glass envelope filled with a low pressure gas, typically hydrogen or deuterium (see figure Thyratron-1). The control grid is constructed so that the cathode is completely shielded from the electrostatic field of the anode. Due to this tight mechanical baffling, high voltage can be applied to the anode without current flow in an unbiased, quiescent state, producing an open switch.

A positive signal applied to the control grid ionizes the gas in the cathode-grid region. Electrons are then accelerated by the anode field, causing the entire tube volume to become ionized (conductive) by collision of the accelerated particles with neutral gas molecules. The tube then becomes a closed switch after a few tens of nanoseconds commutation time. Conduction current is determined by the external circuit.

Performance

Metal-ceramic construction thyratrons are rated at I to 100 KV, can switch at rates up to 500 KA/ps, 20 to 20 KA at average powers to 1.0 MW. On-state loss is low at 50 to 300 V tube drop.

Cooling

The majority of applications require only natural convection or forced air cooling. Oil immersion is recommended for low profile, low inductance designs for hold-off voltages greater than 50 KV, and for very high average power applications."

More "Wormholes" found in the theories than found in Space? 

Fred

 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 04:45:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05CjFh2015886; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:45:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05CjDOw015859; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:45:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:45:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC4690F8373@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: BBC programme, The Science Blacklist Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:45:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, Thought this might interest you about the state of US science: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/scienceblacklist.shtml Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 05:18:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05DIANr000823; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:18:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05DI6bx000783; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:18:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:18:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=f2w/8156SHBDA/iO3Kzs5pYxeBMgfkqydIjhEemBLKXoEkN8bMi6x1MOEb/T0DZk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006145131749269@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: BBC programme, The Science Blacklist Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:17:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409676fde0307a298702c864c5bb9fab50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Could you send Tony over for a permanent stay, Remi? http://www.exploredc.org/index.php?id=139 " Today Blair House (actually five homes together) is the official guest residence for the president. Foreign dignitaries stay there while on official visits to the U.S. Among the guests the house has recently hosted are British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Chinese president Jiang Zemin and Israeli Prime Minister Ehuh Barak. While not open to the public, Blair House remains one of the most significant residences in the capital city." Freed! :-) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Could you send Tony over for a permanent stay, Remi?
 
 
 
" Today Blair House (actually five homes together) is the official guest residence for the president. Foreign dignitaries stay there while on official visits to the U.S. Among the guests the house has recently hosted are British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Chinese president Jiang Zemin and Israeli Prime Minister Ehuh Barak. While not open to the public, Blair House remains one of the most significant residences in the capital city."
 
Freed!   :-)
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 05:30:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05DTvOU005794; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:30:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05DTrui005752; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:29:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:29:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC4690F8381@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: BBC programme, The Science Blacklist Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:29:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k05DTkkT005697 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You want him? You can have him. ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber Sent: 05 January 2006 13:18 To: vortex-l Subject: BBC programme, The Science Blacklist Could you send Tony over for a permanent stay, Remi?     http://www.exploredc.org/index.php?id=139   " Today Blair House (actually five homes together) is the official guest residence for the president. Foreign dignitaries stay there while on official visits to the U.S. Among the guests the house has recently hosted are British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Chinese president Jiang Zemin and Israeli Prime Minister Ehuh Barak. While not open to the public, Blair House remains one of the most significant residences in the capital city."   Freed!   :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 07:00:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05F0BSW024079; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:00:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05EsRd9021747; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:54:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:54:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 09:54:08 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E01F03C177B8-171C-CBC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <001401c61193$36883a40$2c027841@xptower> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <001401c61193$36883a40$2c027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: More questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k05EsGCP021607 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Google returns several hits on custom neodymium magnets including: http://www.duramag.com/ They will need to know how you want the field oriented. Regarding Q2, what *is* the resonant frequency of water? -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay Question One      anyone know where we can purchase (or have fabricated) a section of permanent magnet, the section being cylindrical pipe shaped sized like 6 " sch 160 pipe  x 2 feet length ?   Question two     We want to experiment using solenoids to generate a magnetic path thru the wall of a 6" pipe. Anyone ever have experience with experinets using frequency controllers in an attempt to "cycle" the current applied to the solenoids at ultra high frequencies approaching resonance frequency of water? Tell me it can't be done.   ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 07:31:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05FUDxZ006082; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:30:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05F0uOw024443; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:00:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:00:38 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E01FEC6E70C8-171C-CBEE@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Patterson Cell et al Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You don't remember the GMA show in '97? Here's a transcript: http://www.infinite-energy.com/resources/abc.html COP in excess of 1000 was claimed. I think Jed actually measured a COP of 600 on a working cell. Pity they can't make the beads anymore. -----Original Message----- From: temalloy Thrn he mentioned the Patterson Cell. He claimed that the cell was producing between 1 to 1.4 KW on heat output with an input of microvolts. He went on to recount how Patterson added radioneuclides to the water surrounding the cell and how the Geiger counter counts dropped to zero over a period of a few hours. This is the first time I've heard that story. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 09:18:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05HHuX5004454; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:18:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05HH3t7004010; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:17:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mBOIAhWzBl4JiZ+HOCxvDbHSL4dr7OoYsLBHh9HsSU7QrsW1Yn+End1y3oAJWPOQcAITqwspb064m+ajPx4akg/Wk9pZVIK2AdHM03T16one5vW4ixibLtNvifEAXF4V0W12KsiuhGUFqaOeG2UpCQb1Ocftc+3FQmMrqLst+kE= ; Message-ID: <20060105171640.15698.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:16:40 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: More questions To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C7E01F03C177B8-171C-CBC7@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You might have better luck seperating the magnet from the pipe. Assuming that a PVC pipe can withstand the high roattion speeds you are talking about, it would then be trivial to arrange permanent magnets around the pipe for whatever field geometry you wanted. --- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Google returns several hits on custom neodymium > magnets including: > > http://www.duramag.com/ > > They will need to know how you want the field > oriented. > > Regarding Q2, what *is* the resonant frequency of > water? > > -----Original Message----- > From: RC Macaulay > > Question One anyone know where we can purchase > (or have > fabricated) a section of permanent magnet, the > section being > cylindrical pipe shaped sized like 6 " sch 160 pipe > x 2 feet length ? > > Question two We want to experiment > using solenoids to generate a > magnetic path thru the wall of a 6" pipe. Anyone > ever have experience > with experinets using frequency controllers in an > attempt to "cycle" > the current applied to the solenoids at ultra high > frequencies > approaching resonance frequency of water? Tell me it > can't be done. > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your > Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 09:31:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05HU7gr012234; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:31:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05HI8oD004545; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:18:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Fs6VE0jlPF5NkVSm/9aZqX7I6DzPXnxofYSwsOJ2hSBA8hSsmMeq61Ebf5sgafc5mucNblEtxDwlvaJ1Q0Zse+QtD6gv9+TEeTP8Igb34PfdHthRyU8RnbdccLcaeU8pSHYlMrEzid0YExouqdIwSGTZQ28oqIsYezZanX6ivb8= ; Message-ID: <20060105171740.1798.qmail@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:17:40 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: 13 things that don't make sense To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060104175739.63450.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Doh! The article was from March! Sorry, still interesting though --- Merlyn wrote: > New scientist ran a year-end list titled "13 things > that do not make sense" > > http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600 > > This is a list of definite scientific phenomena > which > mainstream physics can't explain. > > Included on the list are placebos (#1), High energy > cosmic rays (#3), tetraneutrons (#7), and cold > fusion > (#13). > > It's light on details, but does present CF as a real > effect which is just not properly understood by > accepted science. > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > __________________________________________ > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 09:56:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05HtruR029545; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:55:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05HtiUg029466; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:55:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The recent mentions of the Patterson cells got me wondering about this. As I understand it, the current theories of CF, such as they are, are largely in agreement that CF happens between deuterium atoms, and just deuterium atoms. In one form or another the overall path is 2H + 2H -> 4He I've also read ... someplace ... that the presence of "light water" may even _poison_ the reaction in some way. BUT ... the Patterson cell used light water. A quick search on Lenr-Canr also turns up a replication of some Patterson results by Longchampt et al back in 1998, which provides a bit of evidence that it wasn't just craziness on Patterson's part that made him see those results. Mitch Swartz also worked with light water and a nickel electrode for quite a while. A search of lenr-canr (that site which "censors" him -- ho, hum) turns up bunches of references to his work showing excess heat in those cells. Even if one doesn't entirely trust Swartz, there's also a reference to a collaboration between Swartz and Hagelstein showing the same thing (why is this reference only showing up in French? whatever, at least it's not in Japanese, then I'd really be lost...). I didn't see the paper itself, just a brief mention in the report on ICCF9 from Jean Paul Biberian: • Swartz et Hagelstein ont montré que l’électrolyse du nickel en eau légère produisait un excès de chaleur de 50%, mais un rajout de 15% d’eau lourde améliorait encore les rendements. In other words, Swartz & Hagelstein showed that electrolysis using a nickel electrode and light water produced 50% excess heat, _but_ an addition of 15% heavy water increased the output. So, what's the reaction path? What's happening in an electrolytic cell showing excess heat with just 1H, no 2H, and what's the end product? Do any current CF theories cover this? Anybody got any guesses? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 10:01:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05I0RLn032701; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:00:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05HVxff013326; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:31:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:31:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <278.2b88782.30eeb1f7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:31:35 EST Subject: Schappeller Gravity Energy Device To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1136482295" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1136482295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://missilegate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.htm -------------------------------1136482295 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://mi= ssilegate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.htm -------------------------------1136482295-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 10:03:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05I2p2G002226; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:02:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05I2lLS002163; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:02:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:02:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:02:27 EST Subject: Re: Schappeller Gravity Energy Device To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1136484147" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1136484147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Since primary cold, this vast reserve of negative entropy potential, is responsible for both matter and energy and since all energy eventually degenerates into heat, it follows that, asnavson puts it, again on page 83: "Primary heat, as may now be understood, is composed of cold energy". ...The reader may recall that something strange happens to electrical energy at absolute zero. For instance, if a disc of conducting material is held at absolute zero and the disc is given an electric charge, the electric current will circulate around and around the disc forever, never loosing its energy a sit would if the disc were sitting on an office desk at room temperature. This property of cold is instrumental in the storage of at least one form of energy. The vast stretches of cold interstellar vacuum must be seen as a vast energy storage sea in a state of heightened negative entropy. Schappeller called this undirected matter-energy reserve potential "latent magnetism. http://missilegate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.htm " -------------------------------1136484147 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Since primary cold,=20= this vast reserve of negative entropy potential, is responsible for both mat= ter and energy and since all energy eventually degenerates into heat, it fol= lows that, asnavson puts it, again on page 83:

"Primary heat, as may= now be understood, is composed of cold energy".

...The reader may recall that somethi= ng strange happens to electrical energy at absolute zero. For instance, if a= disc of conducting material is held at absolute zero and the disc is given=20= an electric charge, the electric current will circulate around and around th= e disc forever, never loosing its energy a sit would if the disc were sittin= g on an office desk at room temperature. This property of cold is instrument= al in the storage of at least one form of energy. The vast stretches of cold= interstellar vacuum must be seen as a vast energy storage sea in a state of= heightened negative entropy. Schappeller called this undirected matter-ener= gy reserve potential "latent magnetism.

http://missilegate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.h= tm

"

-------------------------------1136484147-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 10:09:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05I8agI005296; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:08:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05I8GGr005149; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:08:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:08:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BD6095.9080304@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:08:21 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My belief is that He4 is produced when high concentrations of deuterium are used, a reaction that is poisoned by H. On the other hand, normal hydrogen produces transmutation reactions, not He4, and these reactions have much smaller energy production for each nuclear event. Therefore, it is harder to get much heat out of a cell containing normal hydrogen because the event rate must be much higher than when He4 is made. The event rate can only be increased by increasing the amount of NAE present, which is presently difficult to do. Regards, Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The recent mentions of the Patterson cells got me wondering about this. > > As I understand it, the current theories of CF, such as they are, are > largely in agreement that CF happens between deuterium atoms, and just > deuterium atoms. In one form or another the overall path is > > 2H + 2H -> 4He > > I've also read ... someplace ... that the presence of "light water" may > even _poison_ the reaction in some way. > > BUT ... the Patterson cell used light water. A quick search on > Lenr-Canr also turns up a replication of some Patterson results by > Longchampt et al back in 1998, which provides a bit of evidence that it > wasn't just craziness on Patterson's part that made him see those results. > > Mitch Swartz also worked with light water and a nickel electrode for > quite a while. A search of lenr-canr (that site which "censors" him -- > ho, hum) turns up bunches of references to his work showing excess heat > in those cells. Even if one doesn't entirely trust Swartz, there's also > a reference to a collaboration between Swartz and Hagelstein showing the > same thing (why is this reference only showing up in French? whatever, > at least it's not in Japanese, then I'd really be lost...). I didn't > see the paper itself, just a brief mention in the report on ICCF9 from > Jean Paul Biberian: > > • Swartz et Hagelstein ont montré que l’électrolyse du nickel en eau > légère produisait un excès de chaleur de 50%, mais un rajout de 15% > d’eau lourde améliorait encore les rendements. > > In other words, Swartz & Hagelstein showed that electrolysis using a > nickel electrode and light water produced 50% excess heat, _but_ an > addition of 15% heavy water increased the output. > > So, what's the reaction path? What's happening in an electrolytic cell > showing excess heat with just 1H, no 2H, and what's the end product? Do > any current CF theories cover this? > > Anybody got any guesses? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 10:53:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05Iqp09031432; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:52:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05IqmBR031391; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:52:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ec01c61229$3029e950$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Quantum Probability Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:52:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The observant experimenter (or reader) involved with LENR has likely noticed the persistent problem with "scale-up". Any number of significant energy anomalies have been discovered in the past decade and before - in small powered experiments - from fractional watts upwards to several tens of watts... BUT catch-22 ... the energy anomaly resists all attempts to scale it up to higher (usable) power - and even worse - it will often disappear altogether at even moderately higher power input. This odd phenomenon has been seen in simple electrolysis which is more efficient in smaller units - and in both cold fusion and hydrino experiments, and in magnetic anomalies, and even to a degree in ICF-style hot fusion. As far back as the early '50s, Gow at LBNL found that the surprisingly high level of neutrons in his lower energy experiments (about the power of a television set) did NOT increase with added power. This was totally unlike anything previously seen in nuclear energy - where in general "bigger is better." As it turns out - Gow was probably dealing with "stripping neutrons" (the Oppenheimer Phillips effect) which is a quantum mechanical effect and which is ultimately dependent on "probability." "Probability" is the key word. Many have made the assertion that all of LENR is a just an enhanced QM effect, and therefore is governed by quantum probability, but yet how many experimenters really take this to heart and go for "smaller is better" ? "At its core, quantum mechanics can be regarded as a non-classical probability calculus resting upon a non-classical propositional logic". This according to an abstruse but important website which I am trying to digest and ultimately to bring down to earth ... this for the benefit of any LENR experimenters who might want to test the limits of an anomaly which they have discovered - but have been unable to scale-up. This site can be found at: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantlog/ A quick read-through this site - and you will probably be grateful for anyone brave (or foolish) enough to attempt to apply this difficult material to LENR. It is not easy to understand, but it could be very relevant if quantum probability is the limiting factor or LENR. Any input, even anecdotal, relating to "reverse economy of scale" will be appreciated in this endeavor. Jones BTW, for the pessimist who might opine that if QM probability is limiting the implementation of LENR - then the commercial situation will be ultimately hopeless - let me remind them that a change of "mindset" is the first requirement. For instance, the computer which they are using is an example of a valuable mass produced item which only operates because QM probability has been mastered (in the CPU). From the Pentium on, all modern CPUs have depended on quantum tunneling of electrons - a QM effect governed by enhancing (normally low) QM probability. In a direct analogy to this, the futurist might even suspect that the "LENR device of the next decade" will be based on numerous small cells - or even miniature factories - which are composed of tiny cells and accompanying robotics, controlled by an advanced computer. This is even a little beyond what Jed Rothwell has contemplated in his book. I say miniature robotic "factories" because there is evidence that ongoing structural modification of the electrodes in each cell will be required to create the active interfacial sites (Storm's nuclear active sites). This can be both automated (robotically) and miniaturized. Plus, this miniaturization will (hopefully) also be subject to the price/performance constraints of Moore's Law - which is the way that one 'combats' reverse-economy-of-scale - which is to say instead of progress being determined by "bigger-is-better," or the evil temptation to "super-size-it" ... instead you aim for smaller-but-Moore ;-) For a close analogy - consider that we are just now seeing the beginning of small but relatively complicated energy devices of this type - with the introduction of small methanol fuel cells (DMEC) designed for cell phones and laptops: http://www.fctec.com/fctec_types_dmfc.asp Imagine - taking the next (giant) step beyond the DMEC - what your home-power unit in the year 2020 will look like... first-off it will be no larger than a present day "heat pump" and perhaps costing as much as the average luxury automobile (perhaps it will be a combined auto/home power unit - charging the car's batteries at night) consisting of several hundred small electrolytic type cells (using Ti rather than Pd) - each about the size of the DMEC but using heavy water instead of methanol, and each with a miniature robotic factory to periodically open-up and reactivate (remanufacture) the electrodes of any cell which starts to degenerate. It will be thermoelectric with the water heat used to heat hot water or the home in winter. This is doable... all it takes is political willpower (but first, a change in "mindset" - and isn't that (the meme-factory function) is the ultimate purpose of newsgroups like vortex ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 12:07:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05K7O0f009098; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:07:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05K7Juc009052; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:07:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:07:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:05:23 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <1RIUbB.A.QNC.2xXvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > So, what's the reaction path? What's happening in an electrolytic > cell showing excess heat with just 1H, no 2H, and what's the end > product? Do any current CF theories cover this? > > Anybody got any guesses? > Yes, see: which has developed some since posting here last. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 12:11:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05KAa2n010574; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:10:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05KASOe010470; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:10:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:10:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: <779AEF68-D67C-44F4-A331-A4B71E78F41E@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: BLUE GLOW vs ELECTROSPARK Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:08:13 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k05KADE5010378 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A blue-green glow has been observed on electrodes of high voltage electrolytic cells and electrolytic rectifiers. [1] [2] Electrodes to create the blue-green glow can be made from metals like Ni, Zn, Ti, Al or Zr that form insulating oxides. The glow has been created in cells containing a weak electrolyte like Pickling Lime (CaO), Baking soda, sodium metasilicate, or acetic acid, by gradually increasing the AC voltage through them typically to 200 - 400 V AC. Zn can only be conditioned to about 76 volts. As the electrodes are “conditioned” using high voltage AC they begin to act like opposed diodes and the cell then acts like a capacitor with a low current bypass resistor. That the electrodes act like diodes can be confirmed by replacing one of them with a fresh electrode of the same metal, or with electrodes made of materials which do not form the insulating layers, like Pb, Mg or C, and gradually increasing the voltage to avoid an unexpectedly large DC current. When the electrode is "conditioned" and the glow is formed, the i vs V curve looks like Fig 1. 0 volts | | /| / / ----------/ / _______ 0 amp axis / /---------/ / / |/ Fig 1. - i vs V curve The i vs T curve looks like Fig. 2. ---- / \ / \ ------ \ / \ /..................\.......................... \ / \ / ------- / \ / \ / ---- Fig. 2 - i vs T for blue glow. These traces indicate there exists a voltage threshold at which conduction is suddenly increased. This threshold varies depending on the conditioning of the electrode and choice of metal, but is typically between 100 and 400 V. The above trace representations show operation at a peak voltage about twice the breakdown voltage. THE ELECTROSPARK EFFECT The electrospark effect, actual sparking or arcing through the oxide layer, can be brought about following conditioning by pushing the voltage way above the threshold value. This electrospark regime, described below, should not be confused with the glow regime, which operates in a more subtle way and is less obviously visible. The glow effect is often visible in the background even when a cell is operating in the electrospark regime. THE DIODE EFFECT The "diode effect” can be seen by replacing a conditioned electrode with a fresh electrode which is not yet conditioned, or a metal that does not form a similar layer, like lead, magnesium, or carbon. In one half of the trace there is close to an ordinary linear ohm's law relation, while in the other half the conditioned electrode's rectification and breakdown voltage remains evident. For example see traces at . When operating above the breakdown threshold a blue glow can be seen in a dark room. If the cell current is DC, the blue glow is only about the anode. The blue glow intensity is proportional to current flowing above and beyond, i.e. incremental to, that current which sustains the threshold voltage. HYPOTHESIS FOR THE GLOW CAUSE A good working hypothesis for the observations is that during conditioning an insulating layer, probably primarily an oxide layer, grows on the surface of the electrodes to a thickness which prevents molecular ion flow to or from the electrode. This oxide layer passes electrons however, either through conduction or through tunneling, a fact which is easily tested by drying the electrodes and measuring conductivity through the electrodes. The effect of this molecule filtering yet conductive layer on an anode is to create an interphase zone in the electrolyte, bounded by the surface of the anode, across which a large potential drop occurs. This large potential drop across a short distance thus creates a colossal electrostatic field gradient at the surface of the anode. This powerful field gradient is sufficient, by means described below, to free and accelerate protons to sufficient energy to ionize the electrolyte in the interphase and cause recombination reactions that cause the glow. PASSIVATION This conducting oxide layer is well known, though the reason it conducts is not conclusive. [3 ] The process of forming this layer, earlier called “conditioning”, is formally called passivation. Passivation of an oxide forming electrode occurs when a sufficient current density is passed for a sufficient time through the electrode when it is used as an anode. Either DC or AC can be used, provided the necessary current density is achieved. If insufficient voltage is used, then no oxide layer forms, and ordinary anode corrosion results. After a sufficient passivation time interval and current density, the oxide layer, though initially insulating, begins to be conductive. As the layer becomes conductive it begins to absorb incident photons, i.e. becomes black as opposed to reflective, at least in the case of Ni anodes. [4] When the oxide layer is conductive, the electrode is protected from corrosion, and is thus passivated. The oxide film which forms just prior to this is called a precursor or prepassive film. Passivation time is reduced by increasing the passivation voltage and thus current density. THE CATHODE INTERFACE AND THE ANODE INTERPHASE The anode interphase layer on a passivated anode creates the diode effect so clearly visible on i vs V traces. The diode effect comes from the difference in the high mobility of protons through the cathode (or anode) interphase layer vs the low mobility of the relatively big negative ions through the anode interphase layer. The two molecule thick cathode interface is comparatively well understood and thoroughly described by Bockris. [5] Protons in the form of hydronium ions (H3O+) are very mobile in water, and easily electronated at the cathode interphase by electrons tunneling through the cathode interphase barrier when having a potential on the order of a few volts. The addition of a conductive oxide barrier at the cathode merely increases the potential required to achieve this tunneling by a few volts. The anode interphase, however, is dramatically changed by a conductive oxide layer. Here, in order to sustain ordinary electrolysis reaction, an electron must be removed from an OH- radical. However, a powerful gradient forms at the anode and may be sufficient to strip electrons from neutral molecules given a sufficient availability of OH- radicals in the vicinity of the anode. In ordinary electrolysis an OH- radical must be adjacent to the anode surface in order to achieve an effective probability of electron removal. In fact the glow process can be expected with just such a reaction: OH- ---> OH + e- However, this reaction immediately removes charges from the electrolyte near the surface of the anode. The low mobility of the negative molecular ions to the anode is in part due to the powerful polar nature of water, which forms a two molecule thick layer about the anode, the cathode, and also around any molecular ions themselves. This powerfully bound layer prevents molecular ions like OH- from easily penetrating them. However, this layer can only account for a couple eV of the 100-400 volt diode effect breakdown voltage observed. Further the breakdown voltage does not act like an actual diode breakdown, except in spark mode, but rather as a range of quickly increasing current/voltage ratio. What then can account for the large breakdown voltage? Electrons should be able to tunnel in either direction across the oxide barrier with the same probability. The answer may lie in part because the interphase layer on the anode is much thicker than the two molecule thick interface on the cathode, and thus the cell voltage is divided across more molecules. The OH- radical is polarized. The O side is more negative than the H side. It can form chains at the anode. Fig. 3 is a representation of one example of such a weakly bound molecular chain. (anode+)(OH-)(OH2)(OH-)(OH2)(OH-)... Fig. 3 Representation of anode interphase molecular chain Multiple water molecules, OH, HOOH, and other polar molecules would be expected often in place of the OH2 molecules shown in Fig. 3. Water is deliberately designated in Fig. 3 as OH2 in that the negative O side of the water would be attracted to the hydrogen side of the OH-. When the potential drop across the first OH- molecule is sufficient to strip an electron, we have: OH- ---> OH + e- In that the OH molecule is polar, we still have a chain as shown in Fig. 4 (anode+)(OH)(OH2)(OH-)(OH2)(OH-)... Fig. 4 Anode interphase molecular chain post-discharge But the front molecule of the chain has to break free of the chain in order to have another electron exchange. The next OH- radical, now at least two molecules away from the anode, must force its way to the anode for another reaction to occur. The diffusion rate for the big OH- radical is much lower than for a much smaller proton tunneling its way through water molecules. The creation of the charge free gap places a large amount of the cell potential drop across that gap. Given the high field gradient, we might at times see on the anode surface: OH- ---> OH + P + 2e- or possibly OH ---> O + P + e- and the free proton , accelerated by the strong local anode field gradient, zips its way down the chain, causing ionization, some hydronium formation, but ultimately: OH- + p --> H2O a recombination reaction. In that the glow does not occur from normal low voltage cathode reactions, i.e. OH- ---> OH + e- it appears a substantial percentage of the anode reactions in the glow regime create free protons. The diode forming zone in the electrolyte sustains the majority of the typical 200-400 V drop across a glowing anode cell. Assuming a 120 V drop across a 4 angstrom thick zone, the field strength is about 300 billion volts per meter. The products of disruption caused by energetic protons, various forms of hydrogen and oxygen, then ultimately recombine to form water or oxygen, and in the process of recombination emit the characteristic blue-green glow of this recombination. ELECTROSPARK REGIME OPERATION If the voltage is pushed much beyond the breakdown threshold, bright spots form and in their early stages flash all over the electrode. The scope traces develop a hair like fringe that represents the sudden conductivity characteristic of sparks. This is called the electrospark regime. See: Typically, the sparking sites erode, destroying the electrode, and sludge forms in the bottom of the cell. In addition, metal oxidation occurs which throws off calorimetry calculations significantly when not take into account. Microscopic examination of the electrospark hot spots show shiny metal interiors to the holes. The sparks must penetrate through the anode oxide layer. The initial sparkly effect, which gives the appearance of the motion of sparks around the electrode, must be due to the fast reformation of the oxide barrier after a spark. When the spark sites are deeply eroded, however, the appearance of motion of the sparks stops, and in the case of aluminum electrodes, leaves tiny static orange glowing hot spots. If a DC cell is operated purely in the blue glow regime, it can operate indefinitely, or at least a very long time. Further, the current draw of the cell can be much less than an ordinary electrolytic cell, though the field strength and particle energies at the anode interphase are much higher than for ordinary electrolytic cells. The purely blue glow regime therefore is a much better regime to investigate for free energy creation than the electrospark regime. Use of AC guarantees the essential anode coating stays in place. Use of square wave AC, though nonessential, would maximize the peak-to- peak voltage that can be used without entering the electrospark regime. Use of regulated DC is desirable if an anode material is used that forms an oxide that is not consumed by the process and does not become thick to enough to stop current flow. POSSIBLE RELEVANCE TO COLD FUSION In that free hydrogen nuclei and free electrons are undoubtedly created in the blue glow regime, it is a candidate for both vacuum energy creation via atomic expansion, and for cold fusion reactions via electron catalysis, and thus for tritium creation provided D2O electrolyte is used. Because the input power is low, an over unity coefficient of power should be much easier to spot as well. If any energy or nuclear effect is found, the regime can be made far more energetic by engineering conductive ceramic or semiconducting layers capable of avoiding the electrospark regime into very high voltages. If testing for tritium is desired, a cell design maximizing (electrode area)/(cell volume) is desirable, in order to maximize the final tritium concentration. Use of a closed cell would be desirable. The blue glow should be very effective at ensuring recombination. It may be possible to run a closed cell provided the anode is located in a horizontal manner at the top of the cell, having the back of the anode insulated from the electrolyte. The objective of this is to route any evolved gasses into the blue glow for recombination. To run a sealed cell, the cell power supply leads would have to be insulated. Any exposed electrode surface area would have to be located under the anode recombiner surface. It may be advantageous to have the anode shaped in a concave dome form, so as to create a gas trap. The pure blue glow regime might be investigated by amateurs without access to D2O by simply using very long run times. Ordinary water contains some deuterium. If tritium is produced, it should accumulate in the electrolyte. Electrolytes from very long runs, months or years, might be affordably tested by amateurs developing the right arrangements with labs having scintillation counters, or simply by the use of film. Unfortunately, in ordinary water, almost no D2O exists. Almost all the deuterium is in HDO molecules. The probability of two deuterium atoms in the same close vicinity is unobservably small. If deuterium is required for a fusion reaction, we would then expect helium-3 to be the likely product, and there is no convenient test available to amateurs for helium-3. The presence of tritium, if produced from ordinary water, would likely be due to D + P + e- ---> T + neutrino and this would be surprising indeed. The electron catalysis [6] for helium-3 would be: D + P + e- ---> 3He + e- The electron catalysis of deuterium to produce tritium looks like: D + D + e- ---> He* ---> T + P + 2e- while a dual electron catalysis[7] might look like: D + D + 2e- ---> He** ---> He + 2e- where the He** might end up in a heavy nucleus while in a de- energized state instead of forming helium. ELECTRON-HOLE ANNIHILATION HYPOTHESIS The above conjectures are exciting, but not the simplest or most credible. A more credible hypothesis is that the glow comes from electron-hole annihilation at the interface between the electrolyte and the oxide coating. The oxide layer that is effective in producing the glow becomes black, i.e. non-reflective, when it becomes effective[4]. A similar effect was noted by Steiner when making negative resistance layer on zinc. [8] A reasonable hypothesis then is that the black semiconductive oxide layer forms the basis for both negative resistance, the diode effect, and when combined with a transparent cathode like an electrolyte, the glow effect. The oxide layer then is an N-type semiconductor, conducting via holes. When an electron is stripped from an OH- and then annihilates with a hole, a photon is produced (possibly two, with at only one visible.) One problem with this hypothesis is that the glow color seems relatively constant, despite a range of electrode materials. The glow should change, depending on the hole energy. However, the energy to strip the electron from the OH- is vastly greater, so possibly this accounts for the approximate color constancy. Another problem is that, for fixed electrode areas, the glow does not occur until a threshold voltage is reached, and then is a function of incremental current (actually incremental current density). If the oxide layer is N-type, then electron-hole annihilation should be happening even at voltages below the large threshold voltage which is roughly on the order of a 100 volts. One possible answer to this is that the oxide layer is simultaneously both an N-type and P-type conductor. This would also account for the ability of the anode to function normally as a proton electronator, i.e. by conducting electrons. It is possible that both electron-hole annihilation and energetic free proton effects are happening in the blue glow creating interphase. SERENDIPITY Of possible interest is the idea of using electrolytic passivation to create negative resistance solid state diodes from metals. Zinc can be passivated in a weak (tablespoon baking soda per 8 oz water) electrolyte by gradually increasing the AC voltage to about 76 volts. A much better passivation and higher final voltage would be expected using DC. Other metals require differing voltages, so can offer stronger negative resistance effects or effects at higher voltages and power density. Negative resistance devices are useful for creating oscillators, and may provide an economical way to oscillate very large amounts of power by use of large area negative resistance devices created by applying a conductive metal to the passivated surface of an oxide forming metal. REFERENCES [1] Heffner, “AEH and the Blue Glow”, Feb. 2002, [2] Steiner, “Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow”, Oct 2003, . [3] J. O’M Bockris and A.K.N. Reddy, Modern Electrochemistry, Plenum Press, 1977, p 1315 ff. [4] ibid., p.1319 ff. [5] ibid., p. 623 ff. [6] Heffner,”Electron Catalyzed Fusion”, March 2001, [7] Heffner,”Dual Electron Catalyzed Fusion”, Dec. 2004, . [8] Steiner, “zinc negatice resistance oscillator”,March, 2001, From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 12:32:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05KUaMZ024011; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:31:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05K4J3n007203; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:04:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:04:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BD7BB1.2030205@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:04:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <43BD6095.9080304@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <43BD6095.9080304@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <0YmsVC.A.SwB.BvXvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > My belief is that He4 is produced when high concentrations of deuterium > are used, a reaction that is poisoned by H. On the other hand, normal > hydrogen produces transmutation reactions, not He4, and these reactions > have much smaller energy production for each nuclear event. So, is it believed that the transmutation events represent fusion of the 1H with either Pd or Ni? As in 1H + Pd -> ?? or, since both Swartz and Patterson used nickel in the cathodes, perhaps it would more commonly be, 1H + Ni -> ?? Sounds like these might actually be fusion/fission reactions, as in, for instance, 1H + 58Ni -> 59Cu (half-life 1.36 minutes) --> ??? ... uh ... maybe? > Therefore, > it is harder to get much heat out of a cell containing normal hydrogen > because the event rate must be much higher than when He4 is made. The > event rate can only be increased by increasing the amount of NAE > present, which is presently difficult to do. > > Regards, > Ed > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> The recent mentions of the Patterson cells got me wondering about this. >> >> As I understand it, the current theories of CF, such as they are, are >> largely in agreement that CF happens between deuterium atoms, and just >> deuterium atoms. In one form or another the overall path is >> >> 2H + 2H -> 4He >> >> I've also read ... someplace ... that the presence of "light water" >> may even _poison_ the reaction in some way. >> >> BUT ... the Patterson cell used light water. A quick search on >> Lenr-Canr also turns up a replication of some Patterson results by >> Longchampt et al back in 1998, which provides a bit of evidence that >> it wasn't just craziness on Patterson's part that made him see those >> results. >> >> Mitch Swartz also worked with light water and a nickel electrode for >> quite a while. A search of lenr-canr (that site which "censors" him >> -- ho, hum) turns up bunches of references to his work showing excess >> heat in those cells. Even if one doesn't entirely trust Swartz, >> there's also a reference to a collaboration between Swartz and >> Hagelstein showing the same thing (why is this reference only showing >> up in French? whatever, at least it's not in Japanese, then I'd >> really be lost...). I didn't see the paper itself, just a brief >> mention in the report on ICCF9 from Jean Paul Biberian: >> >> • Swartz et Hagelstein ont montré que l’électrolyse du nickel en eau >> légère produisait un excès de chaleur de 50%, mais un rajout de 15% >> d’eau lourde améliorait encore les rendements. >> >> In other words, Swartz & Hagelstein showed that electrolysis using a >> nickel electrode and light water produced 50% excess heat, _but_ an >> addition of 15% heavy water increased the output. >> >> So, what's the reaction path? What's happening in an electrolytic >> cell showing excess heat with just 1H, no 2H, and what's the end >> product? Do any current CF theories cover this? >> >> Anybody got any guesses? >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 12:44:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05KhYw3002086; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:43:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05KhWkO002060; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:43:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:43:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:43:09 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <77k3yD.A.Cg.zTYvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> So, what's the reaction path? What's happening in an electrolytic >> cell showing excess heat with just 1H, no 2H, and what's the end >> product? Do any current CF theories cover this? >> >> Anybody got any guesses? >> > > Yes, see: > > > > which has developed some since posting here last. Thanks. I read through it -- But I can't claim to have absorbed or understood it all! :-) I don't know if I go along with the fusion speculation, though. The most plausible possible mechanism you mentioned for the blue glow seemed to me to be the last one, in which the insulating layer, in combination with the solution itself, is said to form a semiconductor LED. If I understood it, you're suggesting that the insulator+solution might form the equivalent of _two_ reversed diodes in parallel (_not_ series), and the one with the higher resistance and higher forward voltage drop is the one associated with the blue glow. So, the glow shows when the high-drop diode is _forward_ biased, as we would expect from solid state LED experience. (A first glance at this situation, before reading your paper, made it seem like the glow was associated with a _reverse_ biased diode, which seemed harder to understand.) Er ... at least, I think that's what you said? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 13:20:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05LJZme025038; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:19:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05LJVhf024970; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:19:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Schappeller Gravity Energy Device Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:19:11 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c6123d$ac66a170$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6120B.61CC3170" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6120B.61CC3170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Latent magnetism? You are describing superconductivity. If cold is regarded as a negative energy potential, how can it also be a component = of positive energy states of mater and energy? The absence of light is a component of light? =20 Can't say I am terribly familiar with Schappleller's work. My apologies = if my questions are answered in the referenced webpage. =20 -john =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: ThomasClark123@aol.com [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Schappeller Gravity Energy Device "Since primary cold, this vast reserve of negative entropy potential, is responsible for both matter and energy and since all energy eventually degenerates into heat, it follows that, asnavson puts it, again on page = 83: "Primary heat, as may now be understood, is composed of cold energy". ...The reader may recall that something strange happens to electrical = energy at absolute zero. For instance, if a disc of conducting material is held = at absolute zero and the disc is given an electric charge, the electric = current will circulate around and around the disc forever, never loosing its = energy a sit would if the disc were sitting on an office desk at room = temperature. This property of cold is instrumental in the storage of at least one = form of energy. The vast stretches of cold interstellar vacuum must be seen as a vast energy storage sea in a state of heightened negative entropy. Schappeller called this undirected matter-energy reserve potential = "latent magnetism. http://missilegate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.htm " ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6120B.61CC3170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Latent magnetism?  You are = describing=20 superconductivity.  If cold is regarded as a negative energy = potential, how=20 can it also be a component of positive energy states of mater and = energy? =20 The absence of light is a component of light?
 
Can't say I am terribly familiar = with=20 Schappleller's work.  My apologies if my questions are answered in = the=20 referenced webpage.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = ThomasClark123@aol.com=20 [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 05, = 2006=20 12:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = Schappeller=20 Gravity Energy Device

"Since primary = cold, this=20 vast reserve of negative entropy potential, is responsible for both = matter and=20 energy and since all energy eventually degenerates into heat, it follows = that,=20 asnavson puts it, again on page 83:

"Primary heat, as = may now be=20 understood, is composed of cold energy".

...The reader may recall that = something=20 strange happens to electrical energy at absolute zero. For instance, if = a disc=20 of conducting material is held at absolute zero and the disc is given an = electric charge, the electric current will circulate around and around = the disc=20 forever, never loosing its energy a sit would if the disc were sitting = on an=20 office desk at room temperature. This property of cold is instrumental = in the=20 storage of at least one form of energy. The vast stretches of cold = interstellar=20 vacuum must be seen as a vast energy storage sea in a state of = heightened=20 negative entropy. Schappeller called this undirected matter-energy = reserve=20 potential "latent magnetism.

http://missi= legate.com/rfz/schappellerchapter4b.htm

"

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6120B.61CC3170-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 13:48:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05LlsOm015426; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:47:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05LlmjN015330; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:47:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:47:28 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E058C1D3DAAF-964-17F5@mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: What is your most dangerous idea? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.70 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <6OT3FD.A.DvD.AQZvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_print.html The Edge Annual Question ? 2006 WHAT IS YOUR DANGEROUS IDEA? The history of science is replete with discoveries that were considered socially, morally, or emotionally dangerous in their time; the Copernican and Darwinian revolutions are the most obvious. What is your dangerous idea? An idea you think about (not necessarily one you originated) that is dangerous not because it is assumed to be false, but because it might be true? The article includes 120 responses from science-mided leaders. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 13:58:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05LvmUD020348; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:57:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05LvjdT020303; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:57:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060105135136.02a2e2a8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:00:29 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Patterson Cell et al In-Reply-To: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> References: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Umm...FYI. This Patterson talk aroused my interest a few weeks ago. I ended up talking with the guy who built the cell for Jim that ran at PowrGen. He said, to his knowledge, quite frankly, that there were never any tests performed when the cell had reached equilibrium. He said some people came in during the show, measured large amounts of power (not energy) but these were not integrated over time. He said that there were other factors that could have been involved with the power readings, he personally didn't seem to give much credence to the reported power levels. Paraphrashing: He said CETI allowed people during the show to come in and make power readings. CETI knew that the numbers people were getting excited about were not as meaningful as those taking them thought they were. But CETI didn't bother to point that out to them. s At 02:03 AM 1/5/2006, you wrote: >This morning's guest on C to C AM was Keith Morgan www.kbmorgan.com who >works as >a electronic technician for ABC's Nightline. He started out by recounting his >adventures with Richard C Hoagland of www.enterprisemission.com . Richard and >Keith have been doing various mathametical analysis of the face and the >city on >Mars. They recounted how an element of the NASA establishment have done their >best to thwart their efforts to make the public aware of their findings. > >Then he moved on to over unity energy production. First of all he >mentioned the >Reed Motor, AFAIK, Troy was never able to get it to work. .He started our by >mentioning a man with a water powered dune buggy. Well we all know who that >was. Thrn he mentioned the Patterson Cell. He claimed that the cell was >producing between 1 to 1.4 KW on heat output with an input of microvolts. He >went on to recount how Patterson added radioneuclides to the water surrounding >the cell and how the Geiger counter counts dropped to zero over a period of a >few hours. This is the first time I've heard that story. > >Keith's website has an analysis of the pictures, which I'd like to call your >attention. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 14:50:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05MobVW018717; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:50:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05MoZGn018699; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:50:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:50:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060105172500.035cc5d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:50:17 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Patterson Cell et al In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060105135136.02a2e2a8@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20060105135136.02a2e2a8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9472921==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9472921==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >He said, to his knowledge, quite frankly, that there were never any >tests performed when the cell had reached equilibrium. He said some >people came in during the show, measured large amounts of power (not >energy) but these were not integrated over time. I presume you spoke with Cravens. I observed the cell for an hour or more. The flow rate was rapid, and the thermal mass of the cell was small, so the response time was quick compared to most calorimeters. I am confident that I watched it long enough to see integrated energy far above the limits of chemistry, assuming the calorimetry can be trusted all. It was Woolworth-grade instrumentation, which baffled and upset me, George Miley and others. It seemed to be designed to leave doubts in people's minds. Years later someone told me that was actually the case! Reportedly, they told Cravens to make it cheap, shoddy and unconvincing. I can scarcely believe that even now, but it sure seemed that way. I had some difficulty staying long enough to watch it for an hour. They wanted to throw me out and escort the next batch of gawkers in, but I insisted on staying to keep an eye on it -- for the reasons indicated above. This was after my first run-in when I threatened to leave without even looking at the thing. In other words, they repeatedly tried to prevent me and others from evaluating the machine properly. This was annoying and suspicious, to say the least. I should have described their shenanigans in my report. I would if I were writing it now, but back then I tried to keep it strictly factual and devoted to the technical claims only. As a scientific breakthrough it seemed brilliant. As a public relations exercise it was a shambles, and a nightmare, and it must rank as one of the most appalling and inscrutable lost opportunities in the history of commerce. - Jed --=====================_9472921==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

He said, to his knowledge, quite frankly, that there were never any tests performed when the cell had reached equilibrium. He said some people came in during the show, measured large amounts of power (not energy) but these were not integrated over time.

I presume you spoke with Cravens.

I observed the cell for an hour or more. The flow rate was rapid, and the thermal mass of the cell was small, so the response time was quick compared to most calorimeters. I am confident that I watched it long enough to see integrated energy far above the limits of chemistry, assuming the calorimetry can be trusted all. It was Woolworth-grade instrumentation, which baffled and upset me, George Miley and others. It seemed to be designed to leave doubts in people's minds. Years later someone told me that was actually the case! Reportedly, they told Cravens to make it cheap, shoddy and unconvincing. I can scarcely believe that even now, but it sure seemed that way.

I had some difficulty staying long enough to watch it for an hour. They wanted to throw me out and escort  the next batch of gawkers in, but I insisted on staying to keep an eye on it -- for the reasons indicated above. This was after my first run-in when I threatened to leave without even looking at the thing. In other words, they repeatedly tried to prevent me and others from evaluating the machine properly. This was annoying and suspicious, to say the least. I should have described their shenanigans in my report. I would if I were writing it now, but back then I tried to keep it strictly factual and devoted to the technical claims only.

As a scientific breakthrough it seemed brilliant. As a public relations exercise it was a shambles, and a nightmare, and it must rank as one of the most appalling and inscrutable lost opportunities in the history of commerce.

- Jed
--=====================_9472921==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 15:49:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k05Nmfgu018134; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:48:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k05NmQdH017990; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:48:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:46:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex down? Sending this again: On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > I don't know if I go along with the fusion speculation, though. Well, the formation low energy D or 3He by electron catalysis in light water is to me far more palatable than a proton reaction with potassium or other highly charged nucleus. If experimental evidence proves heavy element reaction with hydrogen then we have to accept that (not that I think it is yet conclusive and thus must be accepted.) However, if we can accept that possibility, then it seems almost trivial to accept the formation of D and He3 in light water, or in heavy water T or a neutral 4He* (which is essentially a de- energized quadraneutron) that can form helium or create mass 4 changes without strong signatures. The degree of de-energization at the moment of fusion depends on just how small the de-energized fused particle is upon initial waveform collapse. Given that it can be string sized, essentially all the energy of the reactants is then returned to the vacuum, followed by a permanent energy borrowing to "expand" the strings quantum waveforms to normal size. We thus not only have ZPE fueled atomic expansion, we have ZPE fueled nuclear expansion, followed by atomic expansion of the leptons. > > The most plausible possible mechanism you mentioned for the blue > glow seemed to me to be the last one, in which the insulating > layer, in combination with the solution itself, is said to form a > semiconductor LED. True, but the possibility of *both* types of glow is not excluded either. > If I understood it, you're suggesting that the insulator+solution > might form the equivalent of _two_ reversed diodes in parallel > (_not_ series), and the one with the higher resistance and higher > forward voltage drop is the one associated with the blue glow. I suggest that the insulator + solution forms a single diode when the insulator is properly "conditioned". Given two properly conditioned electrodes in an AC cell, they act like back-to-back diodes, and thus act like a capacitor - though one with a bit of a bypass resistor. Given one conditioned electrode and one electrode with no conditioned insulator, the cell acts like a diode. In that case the conditioned electrode is a cathode when conducting, an anode when it opposes current flow. This effect I attributed to low anion mobility in the interphase. Proton mobility is comparatively high everywhere in the cell. > So, the glow shows when the high-drop diode is _forward_ biased, as > we would expect from solid state LED experience. (A first glance > at this situation, before reading your paper, made it seem like the > glow was associated with a _reverse_ biased diode, which seemed > harder to understand.) > > Er ... at least, I think that's what you said? No, just the opposite. A conditioned electrode produces the glow when it is reverse biased, i.e. when it is an *anode* in the cell. It is accepting electrons from the electrolyte. It is creating free protons in an extraordinarily strong electrostatic field at its surface. The experimental evidence for this was all carefully described in and in the related posts here on vortex around Feb. 2002. I hope that is helpful - it is not easy to describe these concepts. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 16:04:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0604JAH025696; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:04:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0604GSX025678; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:04:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:04:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060105160552.02a48a70@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:06:56 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Patterson Cell et al In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060105172500.035cc5d8@mindspring.com> References: <20060105040330.ldxphb4lzkcg8ow0@webmail.usfamily.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20060105135136.02a2e2a8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060105172500.035cc5d8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, Well. You were there. I wasn't. So there's not much more I can contribute. Except that someday when you and I are old and grey we'll have some funny stories to tell. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 16:18:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k060IOLo001107; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:18:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k060IMik001079; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:18:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:18:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:38:45 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > I don't know if I go along with the fusion speculation, though. Well, the formation low energy D or 3He by electron catalysis in light water is to me far more palatable than a proton reaction with potassium or other highly charged nucleus. If experimental evidence proves heavy element reaction with hydrogen then we have to accept that (not that I think it is yet conclusive and thus must be accepted.) However, if we can accept that possibility, then it seems almost trivial to accept the formation of D and He3 in light water, or in heavy water T or a neutral 4He* (which is essentially a de- energized quadraneutron) that can form helium or create mass 4 changes without strong signatures. The degree of de-enrgization at the moment of fusion depends on just how small the de-energized fused particle is upon initial waveform collapse. Given that it can be string sized, essentially all the energy of the reactants is then returned to the vacuum, followed by a permanent energy borrowing to "expand" the strings quantum waveforms to normal size. We thus not only have ZPE fueled atomic expansion, we have ZPE fueled nuclear expansion, followed by atomic expansion of the leptons. > > The most plausible possible mechanism you mentioned for the blue > glow seemed to me to be the last one, in which the insulating > layer, in combination with the solution itself, is said to form a > semiconductor LED. True, but the possibility of *both* types of glow is not excluded either. > If I understood it, you're suggesting that the insulator+solution > might form the equivalent of _two_ reversed diodes in parallel > (_not_ series), and the one with the higher resistance and higher > forward voltage drop is the one associated with the blue glow. I suggest that the insulator + solution forms a single diode when the insulator is properly "conditioned". Given two properly conditioned electrodes in an AC cell, they act like back-to-back diodes, and thus act like a capacitor - though one with a bit of a bypass resistor. Given one conditioned electrode and one electrode with no conditioned insulator, the cell acts like a diode. In that case the conditioned electrode is a cathode when conducting, an anode when it opposes current flow. This effect I attributed to low anion mobility in the interphase. Proton mobility is comparatively high everywhere in the cell. > So, the glow shows when the high-drop diode is _forward_ biased, as > we would expect from solid state LED experience. (A first glance > at this situation, before reading your paper, made it seem like the > glow was associated with a _reverse_ biased diode, which seemed > harder to understand.) > > Er ... at least, I think that's what you said? No, just the opposite. A conditioned electrode produces the glow when it is reverse biased, i.e. when it is an *anode* in the cell. It is accepting electrons from the electrolyte. It is creating free protons in an extraordinarily strong electrostatic field at its surface. The experimental evidence for this was all carefully described in and in the related posts here on vortex around Feb. 2002. I hope that is helpful - it is not easy to describe these concepts. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 17:11:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k061B4uB007089; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:11:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k061B0V2007038; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:11:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:11:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006f01c6125d$bda16f90$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: D2Fusion Website Being Updated Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:07:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C61233.AEC4C140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C61233.AEC4C140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable D2fusion is finally upgrading their website: http://www.D2fusion.com. = Some signs of life from this fledgling cold fusion enterprise. Also, = their parent company Solar Ltd. has seen some action in its stock SLRE = the last few days. Perhaps something is brewing out in California? ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C61233.AEC4C140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
D2fusion is finally upgrading their = website: =20 http://www.D2fusion.com.  = Some signs=20 of life from this fledgling cold fusion enterprise.  Also, their = parent=20 company Solar Ltd. has seen some action in its stock SLRE the last few=20 days.  Perhaps something is brewing out=20 in California? 
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C61233.AEC4C140-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 18:41:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k062fGN5032527; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:41:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k062fDqV032507; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:41:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:40:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060104040622.00a0726c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:40:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k062f3PO032406 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:06:22 +0000: Hi, [snip] >At 09:58 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > >> Did any ever get struck by Thor? > > > >I never heard of a case. > >Lighting doesn't bring down aeroplanes very often. >Why should it bring down balloons? > >Frank It may not bring the balloon down, but of necessity, the cable must be conducting. Therefore lightning strikes are going to fry the power connections on the ground. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 19:17:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k063H6Hc031335; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:17:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k063H3NF031293; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:17:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:16:49 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E086C4A68693-F34-339F@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Lightweight Lead Acid? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems like an oxymoron; but, they apparently use a plating technology: http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html Odd that I just finished a book by PT Deutermann called "Firefly" -- an exciting and timely read. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 20:11:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k064BGlA026806; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:11:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k064BBKM026752; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:11:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:11:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060106041055462.0B4247400083@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060106041055.00a0be0c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 04:10:55 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:40 pm 06/01/2006 +1100, you wrote: >In reply to Grimer's message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:06:22 +0000: >Hi, >[snip] >>At 09:58 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: >> >>> Did any ever get struck by Thor? >> >> >> >>I never heard of a case. >> >>Lighting doesn't bring down aeroplanes very often. >>Why should it bring down balloons? >> >>Frank >It may not bring the balloon down, but of necessity, the cable >must be conducting. Therefore lightning strikes are going to fry >the power connections on the ground. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Be an extra source of power then, wont it. 8-) Joking apart. I'm sure the developers are not complete idiots and have thought of that one. Doubtless you could think of many ways of combating the problem yourself. Presumably if one was measuring the potential between the balloon and the ground one would get an early warning and could react in some way or other. At the very least you could isolate the ground apparatus from the balloon till the danger was over. During the war barrage balloons were tethered by steel cables. Steel is a good conductor yet I never heard of a balloon being brought down by lightning and I never noticed the aroma of frying ground-crew. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 5 22:05:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0664hQb007080; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:04:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0664fkX007059; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:04:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060106060427785.BFC127400083@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060106060427.0097761c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 06:04:27 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: CF by SL from D Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How about this then? Get a rod of Pd charged up with D and subject it to axially symmetric ultrasonic vibration - a kind of 2 dimensional sonoluminescence set-up. 8-) By moving the rod slowly through the focus of maximum cavitation energy one would have a continuous supply of fresh D. I reckon that will work, O.K. And since only a very small region of material is exposed at a given time it should be easy to keep under control - unlike Mizuno's classic disc experiment, eh! 8-) Palladium Date of Discovery: 1803 Discoverer: William Wollaston Name Origin: From the Greek goddess of wisdom (Pallas) and after an asteroid Uses: jewelry, medical instruments Obtained From: platinum, nickel, copper, mercury ores. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising? Fair as the moon, bright as the sun, Terrible as an army set in battle array. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 06:06:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06E62ti027702; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:06:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06E5vF5027648; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:05:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:05:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c612ca$4914ee00$55037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20060106041055.00a0be0c@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:05:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, Interesting fable over here regarding early times Ben Franklin's classic kite on the string during a thunderstorm experiment. Supposedly , he was able to discover electricity. For sure anyone attempting this trick can be in for a jolt of reality. Evidently, something happened to Ole Ben cause he went off to Europe to chase women as the US Ambassador....errr.. Oh well !! who knows ? perhaps thats what is happening in Washington, everyone has their kite hanging out the window ? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Air Rotors to Ship this Fall > At 01:40 pm 06/01/2006 +1100, you wrote: >>In reply to Grimer's message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:06:22 +0000: >>Hi, >>[snip] >>>At 09:58 pm 03/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: >>> >>>> Did any ever get struck by Thor? >>> >>> >>> >>>I never heard of a case. >>> >>>Lighting doesn't bring down aeroplanes very often. >>>Why should it bring down balloons? >>> >>>Frank >>It may not bring the balloon down, but of necessity, the cable >>must be conducting. Therefore lightning strikes are going to fry >>the power connections on the ground. >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk > > > Be an extra source of power then, wont it. 8-) > > Joking apart. I'm sure the developers > are not complete idiots and have thought > of that one. > > Doubtless you could think of many ways of > combating the problem yourself. Presumably > if one was measuring the potential between > the balloon and the ground one would get > an early warning and could react in some > way or other. > > At the very least you could isolate the > ground apparatus from the balloon till the > danger was over. > > During the war barrage balloons were tethered > by steel cables. Steel is a good conductor > yet I never heard of a balloon being brought > down by lightning and I never noticed the > aroma of frying ground-crew. ;-) > > Frank > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 08:06:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06G5YiS025895; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:05:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06G5Vw5025857; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:05:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:05:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c612da$fbdcf450$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001401c61193$36883a40$2c027841@xptower> Subject: Re: More questions Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:05:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankRichard, I think you are on the right track with the microwave input ... this could have surprising and important implications. > Question three: anyone ever try using a microwave burst aimed > into the center of a vortex? With this size of pipe, you will be unable to focus the normal 2.45 GHz output from a microwave magnetron (oven-variety) and a specialized magnetron at higher frequency is very expensive. However, given the size of the pipe - which is almost perfect for a standing wave or traveling wave at the commercial frequency (no problem with the FCC) then why not set it up that way? It could be done cheaply and the upside potential for a serendipitous discovery is enormous. Matter of fact - the interaction of a standing or travelling microwave with the water vortex - might create an interesting situation IF the shear of the vortex does indeed generate strong local EM fields which would be crossed orthogonally by the microwave flux. This is an implication of vortices in general (strong local EM fields) although I am not able to document that at the moment. Any electrolyte in the water would only help. Of course the skeptic will counter - "why waste your time - microwaves are not 'ionizing radiation' so don't expect miracles ". And yes that is partly true, but microwaves are 'coherent' radiation and any coherent radiation at high flux has a surprising level of interaction with other forms of electromagnetism. For instance you mentioned the laser - which is already focused but getting a laser beam with a kilowatt of output will cost more than even curious Texans are willing to spend - and even a laser is technically not ionizing radiation... ...whereas any garage mechanic can cannibalize an oven and give you a kilowatt of microwaves for cheap. Even if not ionizing on their own, when this coherent radiation crosses a strong local-field (from vortex shear) you may see both ionization and AT THE SAME TIME, the centrifugal-centripetal forces necessary to prevent immediate recombination. That gives the potential for two-fold synergy due to vortex mechanics. It is possible (though to be honest, not likely to be robust) that you will get some level water-splitting this way - which would be a major finding - not only for water purification (because of the O2 and peroxides which would be there as well)... but also...if (big IF) there was a surprising amount of H2 then this would have immediate applications for large scale energy use. Imagine - for instance - at every dam in the country retrofitting the intake with vortex tubes .. then feeding the regular turbines with a vortex flow of this type. There would be little loss of power during high demand (some frictional heating) but the big advantage would be at night, and in periods of low demand ,where the electrical output of the turbines could be converted to microwaves and fed back into the tubes to create a storable fuel - hydrogen. Never mind that the techniques for storage are not yet optimized. There is probably no field of alternative energy getting more attention these days than H2 storage. That problem will be solved soon, no doubt. Like many here I have been fascinated by the mechanics of the Ranque-Hilsch tube for many years... so wouldn't it be dandy if something like this found a ready niche in alternative energy (not to mention helping to push along the hydrogen economy). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 09:11:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06HBP0H032510; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:11:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06HBF8u032460; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:11:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:11:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:10:53 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E0FB48C93EBA-118C-6201@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <001401c61193$36883a40$2c027841@xptower> <003001c612da$fbdcf450$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <003001c612da$fbdcf450$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: More questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Use two magnetrons which can be moved a few inches and you can create very intense and focused modes of energy. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene With this size of pipe, you will be unable to focus the normal 2.45 GHz output from a microwave magnetron (oven-variety) and a specialized magnetron at higher frequency is very expensive. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 10:31:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06IV61F016963; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:31:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06IV2Au016924; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:31:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:31:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:30:46 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E10671BE03F3-1DB8-6B39@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I presume this is a legit request: Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:29:46 -0000 From: "energy_ceos" Subject: Energy CEO Jobs $120 - $200k and stock I am an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, and have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for several years. I have a Cold Fusion company that is looking for a CEO in the $120 - $200K a year range with experience in the SEC filings. The firm requires the individual to move to Salt Lake City for the work required. The company is a new technology utilizing Quantum Physics. Only serious requests. We are also looking for firms with experience in selling to Oil Refinery firms for a new Nanotechnology project. Contact energy_ceos@yahoo.com If you do not have a resume, please summarize your experience. We understand that some higher level candidates may only have BIOs. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 10:55:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06ItH9E029557; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:55:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06ItFu9029514; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:55:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:55:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,339,1131339600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="1151103796:sNHT22639732" Message-ID: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:54:57 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9603_9929209.1136573697252" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_9603_9929209.1136573697252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: hohlrauml >I presume this is a legit request: > >Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:29:46 -0000 >From: "energy_ceos" >Subject: Energy CEO Jobs $120 - $200k and stock > >I am an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, >and have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for >several years. I have a Cold Fusion company that is looking for a CEO >in the $120 - $200K a year range with experience in the SEC filings. >The firm requires the individual to move to Salt Lake City for the >work required. The company is a new technology utilizing Quantum >Physics. Only serious requests. > >We are also looking for firms with experience in selling to Oil >Refinery firms for a new Nanotechnology project. > >Contact energy_ceos@yahoo.com > >If you do not have a resume, please summarize your experience. We >understand that some higher level candidates may only have BIOs. Fascinating request. I hope it IS legitimate. I wonder what they had in mind when they discuss the fact that they are dealing in "...a new technology utilizing Quantum Physics." Kind of vague. Could mean just about anything. The way the request was written, it doesn't sound to me like they are dealing in -controversial- technologies - akin to CF, even though, apparently, they do. Sounds more conventional. Still, it's fascinating. Ok... who is going to submit their resume???? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=_Part_9603_9929209.1136573697252 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: hohlrauml

>I presume this is a legit request:
>
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:29:46 -0000
>From: "energy_ceos"

>Subject: Energy CEO Jobs $120 - $200k and stock
>
>I am an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada,
>and have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for
>several years. I have a Cold Fusion company that is looking for a CEO
>in the $120 - $200K a year range with experience in the SEC filings.
>The firm requires the individual to move to Salt Lake City for the
>work required. The company is a new technology utilizing Quantum
>Physics. Only serious requests.
>
>We are also looking for firms with experience in selling to Oil
>Refinery firms for a new Nanotechnology project.
>
>Contact energy_ceos@yahoo.com
>
>If you do not have a resume, please summarize your experience. We
>understand that some higher level candidates may only have BIOs.

Fascinating request. I hope it IS legitimate.

I wonder what they had in mind when they discuss the fact that they are dealing in "...a new technology utilizing Quantum Physics." Kind of vague. Could mean just about anything. The way the request was written, it doesn't sound to me like they are dealing in -controversial- technologies - akin to CF, even though, apparently, they do. Sounds more conventional. Still, it's fascinating.

Ok... who is going to submit their resume????

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

------=_Part_9603_9929209.1136573697252-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 11:11:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06JBCuB005646; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:11:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06JB8fY005600; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:11:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:10:44 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2P21LB.A.SXB.LDsvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Two things make it believable: 1) The fact that Solar Energy Limited, owners of D2Fusion are in Vancouver, and 2) The bit about needing people who can sell nanotechnology to the oil industry. Sounds like a real recruiter. -----Original Message----- From: orionworks@charter.net Fascinating request. I hope it IS legitimate. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 11:23:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06JN5fN013650; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:23:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06JN3v6013618; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:23:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:23:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BEC385.4050603@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:22:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Two things make it believable: > > 1) The fact that Solar Energy Limited, owners of D2Fusion are in > Vancouver, and > > 2) The bit about needing people who can sell nanotechnology to the oil > industry. > > Sounds like a real recruiter. A real recruiter with a Yahoo (free) email address, no website, no snail-mail address, no phone number, and no personal name? Seems kinda low-budget and rather slipshod for somebody hunting the heads of CEO-level folks. Maybe it's legit, maybe it's not, but I sure wouldn't send them my bio, even if I were qualified and in need of a job...... 'cuz the author looks a lot more more like a phischerman than a recruiter, at least to this overly suspicious person. > -----Original Message----- > From: orionworks@charter.net > > Fascinating request. I hope it IS legitimate. > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 11:52:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06Jqa5C027051; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:52:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06JqWvR027002; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:52:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:52:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:52:15 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E111D3CAFC20-118C-6782@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106111717.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106111717.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Job Posting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the additional information! Here's some google results: http://voip.blogs.com/about.html http://www.vocalscape.com/ Claims to be a business developer. I'll keep checkin' him out. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit The guy asks for "serious requests." Does this sound like a serious enquiry? Does this sound like the way an intelligent executive recruiter works? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 11:59:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06JwtsE029588; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:59:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06Jwrjc029561; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:58:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:58:35 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E112B635D370-118C-67A9@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> <43BEC385.4050603@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43BEC385.4050603@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k06Jwj6G029434 Resent-Message-ID: <8avi2.A.0NH.8vsvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well fishermen and carpenters have changed the world. ;-) This google search seems to ligitimize him: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&rls=GGLD%2CGG LD%3A2005-18%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=vocalscape&as_q=%22ryan+gibson%22 or http://tinyurl.com/8vs97 particularly: http://www.canadait.ca/cfm/index.cfm?It=106&Id=5148&Se=2&Lo=2 Now, IF he's really Ryan Gibson. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence Maybe it's legit, maybe it's not, but I sure wouldn't send them my bio, even if I were qualified and in need of a job...... 'cuz the author looks a lot more more like a phischerman than a recruiter, at least to this overly suspicious person.  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:02:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06K0VX9030481; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:01:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06JwnW6029512; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:58:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:58:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060106195419824.C9425240008C@mwinf3201.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060106195420.00a0e7e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:54:20 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Resent-Message-ID: <7g_NyC.A.-MH.4vsvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:22 pm 06/01/2006 -0500, Stephen wrote: > > >hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >> Two things make it believable: >> >> 1) The fact that Solar Energy Limited, owners of D2Fusion are in >> Vancouver, and >> >> 2) The bit about needing people who can sell nanotechnology to the oil >> industry. >> >> Sounds like a real recruiter. > > A real recruiter with a Yahoo (free) email address, no website, no > snail-mail address, no phone number, and no personal name? Seems kinda > low-budget and rather slipshod for somebody hunting the heads of > CEO-level folks. > > Maybe it's legit, maybe it's not, but I sure wouldn't send them my bio, > even if I were qualified and in need of a job...... 'cuz the author > looks a lot more more like a phischerman than a recruiter, at least to > this overly suspicious person. He probably thinks that anyone who is stupid enough to believe in Cold Fusion, ranks with believers in Homeopathy, Astrology, UFOs, etc. and is therefore easy meat. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:02:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06K0VXB030481; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:01:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06JawVL021380; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:36:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:36:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106111717.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 11:39:43 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Fwd: Re: Job Posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1454340156==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5wJXn.A.-NF.YbsvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1454340156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The guy asks for "serious requests." Does this sound like a serious enquiry? Does this sound like the way an intelligent executive recruiter works? FYI: I asked for backup information. I never got a response from Ryan. Also, I asked Hal Fox if this was his company: Negative. This has a bad odor to it folks. I think as CF becomes more promising and legitimate companies get more involved, we are going to see a lot of sideshows and fools' gold for sale. Steve >At 03:48 AM 12/19/2005, Ryan Gibson wrote: >>I was hoping you could put a job posting in your newsletter: >> >>I am an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, and >>have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for several >>years. I have a Cold Fusion company that is looking for a CEO in the $120 >>- $200K a year range with experience in the SEC filings. The firm >>requires the individual to move to Salt Lake City for the work required. >>The company is a new technology utilizing Quantum Physics. Only serious >>requests. >> >>There are 4 reactors working at 30% Unity. The solution is ideal for free >>energy goals and lowering the effective costs using Quantum physics. >>Please contact immediately. >> >>Contact energy_ceos@.com >> >>If you do not have a resume, please summarize your experience. We >>understand that some higher level candidates may only have BIOs. >Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:40:21 -0800 >To: Ryan Gibson .com> >From: Steven Krivit >Subject: Re: Job Posting > >Dear Ryan, > >Before being able to consider this, I need to know more about you, the >company you work for, and some references. Thank you for your cooperation. >Also, double check your terminology. 30% Unity is insignificant. 30% over >unity is. > >Thank you, > >Steven --=====================_1454340156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The guy asks for "serious requests." Does this sound like a serious enquiry?
Does this sound like the way an intelligent executive recruiter works?

FYI:

I asked for backup information. I never got a response from Ryan.
Also, I asked Hal Fox if this was his company: Negative.
This has a bad odor to it folks.
I think as CF becomes more promising and legitimate companies get more involved, we are going to see a lot of sideshows and fools' gold for sale.


Steve


At 03:48 AM 12/19/2005, Ryan Gibson wrote:
I was hoping you could put a job posting in your newsletter:
 
I am an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, and have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for several years. I have a Cold Fusion company that is looking for a CEO in the $120 - $200K a year range with experience in the SEC filings. The firm requires the individual to move to Salt Lake City for the work required. The company is a new technology utilizing Quantum Physics. Only serious requests.
 
There are 4 reactors working at 30% Unity. The solution is ideal for free energy goals and lowering the effective costs using Quantum physics. Please contact immediately.
 
Contact energy_ceos@<domain name>.com
 
If you do not have a resume, please summarize your experience. We understand that some higher level candidates may only have BIOs.


Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:40:21 -0800
To: Ryan Gibson <energy_ceos@<domain name>.com>
From: Steven Krivit <steven@newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: Job Posting

Dear Ryan,

Before being able to consider this, I need to know more about you, the company you work for, and some references. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, double check your terminology. 30% Unity is insignificant. 30% over unity is.

Thank you,

Steven


--=====================_1454340156==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:16:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KGLGc006023; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:16:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06KGH2g005983; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:16:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:16:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:16:04 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E115277820A7-964-34E3@mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060106195420.00a0e7e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060106195420.00a0e7e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.70 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We *do* seem to think alike. Well, we should know soon. I phoned his office and left him a voice mail with my office and cell numbers. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer He probably thinks that anyone who is stupid enough to believe in Cold Fusion, ranks with believers in Homeopathy, Astrology, UFOs, etc. and is therefore easy meat. ;-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:29:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KT5g9013590; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:29:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06KT2Hv013558; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:29:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:29:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106122112.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:31:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company In-Reply-To: <8C7E112B635D370-118C-67A9@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> <43BEC385.4050603@pobox.com> <8C7E112B635D370-118C-67A9@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3j0gcB.A.rTD.MMtvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: V- I called up our friend at Vocalscape. He's out of town until next week. Instead I spoke with Lance Cameron, Sales Mgr. Had a very pleasant chat with him about VOIP. Seems like they've got a good company and smart sounding product. Oh, but that's VOIP, not CF So Lance tells me that Ryan is the VP of sales and he's in South Africa right now. And that Ryan's normal email is gibson@vocalscape.com. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:32:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KUWlt014353; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:31:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06K5uVM000856; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:05:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:05:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060106150339.03557e80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:05:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Job Posting In-Reply-To: <8C7E111D3CAFC20-118C-6782@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106111717.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C7E111D3CAFC20-118C-6782@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k06K5kXd000742 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could this possibly refer to "cold fusion" software?!? Based on Ryan Gibson's résumé that seems plausible. The part about quantum physics is baffling. It seems unprofessional. I suspect some sort of scam. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:32:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KUWlv014353; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:32:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06KHEO6006441; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:17:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:17:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106115159.02ae6900@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:04:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company In-Reply-To: <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9DTfnD.A.bkB.HBtvDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:10 AM 1/6/2006, you wrote: >Two things make it believable: >) The fact that Solar Energy Limited, owners of D2Fusion are in >Vancouver, and FYI: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1058322/000121152405000361/solarqsba.htm http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0001058322&owner=include >Sounds like a real recruiter. Not to me. What has happened to me in the past with real recruiters is my phone rings and a person on the other end of the line says, "I've got an offer I'd like you to consider." Or, the phone rings or I get a personal email from someone who I know as a legit recruiter, and they say, "Who do you know that....." s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:32:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KWG7T015216; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:32:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06KW6Lv015056; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:32:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:32:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106123437.02a95880@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:34:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Fwd: Re: Job Posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1457648328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1457648328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:34:27 -0800 >To: gibson@vocalscape.com >From: Steven Krivit >Subject: Fwd: Re: Job Posting >Cc: lance@vocalscape.com > >Dear Ryan, > >I am a reporter tracking a story. I wonder if you can help me. > >I received an email last month from someone named Ryan Gibson who says he is > >"an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, and have >worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for several years." > >Is this you? > > > >Steven B. Krivit >Editor, New Energy Times >Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. >11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 >Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 >www.newenergytimes.com >Cell phone: (310) 721-5919 >Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 >Fax: (432) 577-3630 --=====================_1457648328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:34:27 -0800
To: gibson@vocalscape.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven@newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Job Posting
Cc: lance@vocalscape.com

Dear Ryan,

I am a reporter tracking a story. I wonder if you can help me.

I received an email last month from someone named Ryan Gibson who says he is

"an independent technology CEO recruiter out of Vancouver Canada, and have worked with the BC Technology Industries Association for several years."

Is this you?



Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com
Cell phone: (310) 721-5919
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189
Fax: (432) 577-3630
--=====================_1457648328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 12:46:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06KjkAO023085; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:45:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06Kjflp023049; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:45:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:45:24 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E119408614FC-1840-6921@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106111717.02a851f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C7E111D3CAFC20-118C-6782@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060106150339.03557e80@mindspring.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060106150339.03557e80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Job Posting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k06KjUPn022945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could be a hoax or a scam; however, Voicescape has make some interesting acquisitions lately. A precious metals trading s/w company?!? Anyway, I have been involved in several startups and with several Gibson types and it is not as unlikely as it seems that this could be real. He did say he had four working reactors. Interesting phrase, that. Although I doubt he will get rich on 30% ou. My voice message was worded in such a way that I expect a response; and, he can get it before he returns from S. Africa if he has a VoIP company. Let's see . . . its nighttime and summer there, eh? Guess I'll leave my cell on tonight. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell Could this possibly refer to "cold fusion" software?!? Based on Ryan Gibson's résumé that seems plausible. The part about quantum physics is baffling.    It seems unprofessional. I suspect some sort of scam.  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 13:21:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06LLKT1016969; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:21:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06LLH99016944; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:21:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:21:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=N2MlmtNzVugh83imQmvBUxZEX+D/67dgFYmG7cxPMsxMDyT6QtQkBGutCNJbFAfb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006156132045800@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 6, 2006 Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:20:45 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8e57e1aa56103848770f81e05fb1222f592764449e275203c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.81.185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 1/6/2006 8:15:01 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 6, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 6 Jan 06 Washington, DC 1. POLITICAL RETRIBUTION: DEEP SPACE CLIMATE OBSERVATORY KILLED. Triana was never able to overcome its roots. NASA has quietly terminated what may have been its most important science mission. Critics of programs to limit emissions argue that climate change is caused by solar variation, not by atmospheric changes. There is one unambiguous way to tell: locate an observatory at L-1, the neutral-gravity point between Earth and Sun. It would have a continuous view of the sunlit face of Earth in one direction, and the Sun in the other, thus constantly monitoring Earth's albedo. Al Gore initiated the observatory project in 1998 to inspire school children with a continuous view of climate unfolding on our fragile planet. It was even given a poetic name, Triana, the sailor on the Santa Maria who was first to sight the New World http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN98/wn072498.html . But Triana's importance to climate research, perhaps Earths biggest challenge, was not recognized until later. With urging from the National Academy, it was finished in 2001 and given a new name. It was still waiting to be launched when Columbia crashed. By then we had a new President and a new "vision." It was put on hold. The official reason for killing it is "competing priorities." The priority is to replace Gore's vision of the world with the Bush vision of sending people back to the moon. We should all weep. 2. DIVINE RETRIBUTION: WHICH GOD IS BEHIND SHARON'S STROKE? Television evangelist Pat Robertson had previously called for hurricanes to be unleashed on sinful Florida, and told residents of Dover, after they voted out the school board, not to bother turning to God if disaster strikes, because "you just ejected him from your city." Yesterday, Robertson suggested to his audience that Ariel Sharon's stroke was divine punishment for "dividing God's Land." Meanwhile, Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who had already declared that the holocaust never happened and Israel should be wiped off the map, told a group of Muslim clerics that he hopes Sharon perishes. 3. PAPILLOMAVIRUS VACCINE: YES, VIRGINIA, THERE IS A GRINCH. Last week's WN item on the new vaccine drew a lot of mail from readers who found it hard to believe that there is opposition to its use. After all, human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most common sexually transmitted viral infection in the U.S., and the cause of almost all cervical cancers. At least half of U.S. adults have been infected, though not all with the deadliest strains. It's even more serious in developing countries where screening is not available. Nevertheless, New Scientist magazine quotes Bridget Maher of the Family Research Council, a leading Christian lobby group: "Giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful because they may see it as a licence to engage in premarital sex." While hailing the vaccine as a great medical advance, the Family Research Council is concerned that widespread inoculation would infringe on parental consent or perhaps it would infringe on divine retribution. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 14:36:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06MXURW015426; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:35:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06LhouM024125; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:43:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:43:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BEE42A.9060101@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 16:42:02 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 6, 2006 References: <410-22006156132045800@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-22006156132045800@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm getting a bit off topic here, I fear... aki@ix.netcom.com wrote: >>[Original Message] >>From: What's New >>To: > > Date: 1/6/2006 8:15:01 PM > Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 6, 2006 > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 6 Jan 06 Washington, DC > > > 2. DIVINE RETRIBUTION: WHICH GOD IS BEHIND SHARON'S STROKE? Hathor, of course. The Celestial Cow. Sharon recently went on record (through a spokesman) as refusing to make any changes to his diet despite whatever his doctors told him to do. He liked meat, and would not give it up, stroke or no stroke. (This was front-page news in some journal or other just after his first "small" stroke, sorry, haven't got the actual reference at my fingertips just now.) Indeed, he was also told decades ago to fix his diet and would not do it. This, also, made the news recently. So, he knew what he was doing (or at any rate he was told what he was doing to himself; one assumes he heard and understood). And he did it anyway. Yahweh or Allah may take the credit, but it clearly was the Cow Goddess who did the deed. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 14:45:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06Mipuq021554; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:44:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06MfSj9019583; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:41:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:41:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <22946322.1136585607663.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:13:27 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 6, 2006 Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Stephen A. Lawrence ... > Yahweh or Allah may take the credit, but it clearly was the > Cow Goddess who did the deed. Let us not pin the blame on Hathor. ;-) Also, idiots like Robertson make continue to regurgitate convenient (at least for him) rationalizations of divine retribution to explain Sharon's current predicament. Be that as it may, it was Sharon, and Sharon alone, that made the decision not to alter his dietary habits. Hmmm, we're having hamburger tonight for dinner... Oh well... we are cutting down. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.cm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 15:23:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06NMbfa014007; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:22:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06NMV5i013907; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:22:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:22:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004f01c61317$06e786d0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:15:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What does D2Fusion have to do with Salt Lake City? I don't see the connection. Sounds more like an Internet scam, somebody just using keywords like cold fusion and Salt Lake City to see if they find any takers. This is not how professional recruiting is done, especially on the CEO level. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 2:10 PM Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company > Two things make it believable: > > 1) The fact that Solar Energy Limited, owners of D2Fusion are in > Vancouver, and > > 2) The bit about needing people who can sell nanotechnology to the oil > industry. > > Sounds like a real recruiter. > > -----Original Message----- > From: orionworks@charter.net > > Fascinating request. I hope it IS legitimate. > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 15:33:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k06NUA7p017597; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:32:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k06NKaNR012785; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:20:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106152059.028f8818@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:23:13 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Ryan Gibson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: V- I just got a first response back from Gibson at Vocalscape. He affirms that he is the source. I've got a few more questions for him...stay tuned. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 16:31:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k070UeSh016941; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:30:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k070Ua2b016907; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:30:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:30:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060106163138.029ea4e8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 16:33:22 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Ryan Gibson's Job Posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well it ain't ENECO. I just got off the phone with CEO Lou Brown. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 6 18:45:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k072jJFr021601; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:45:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k072dHY2013472; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:39:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:39:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:38:00 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the additional explanation and the reference to the 2002 paper. I'll take the time to read what you've already said about this a bit more carefully before I post any further comment Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> I don't know if I go along with the fusion speculation, though. > > > > Well, the formation low energy D or 3He by electron catalysis in light > water is to me far more palatable than a proton reaction with potassium > or other highly charged nucleus. If experimental evidence proves heavy > element reaction with hydrogen then we have to accept that (not that I > think it is yet conclusive and thus must be accepted.) However, if we > can accept that possibility, then it seems almost trivial to accept the > formation of D and He3 in light water, or in heavy water T or a neutral > 4He* (which is essentially a de- energized quadraneutron) that can form > helium or create mass 4 changes without strong signatures. > > The degree of de-enrgization at the moment of fusion depends on just > how small the de-energized fused particle is upon initial waveform > collapse. Given that it can be string sized, essentially all the > energy of the reactants is then returned to the vacuum, followed by a > permanent energy borrowing to "expand" the strings quantum waveforms to > normal size. We thus not only have ZPE fueled atomic expansion, we > have ZPE fueled nuclear expansion, followed by atomic expansion of the > leptons. > >> >> The most plausible possible mechanism you mentioned for the blue glow >> seemed to me to be the last one, in which the insulating layer, in >> combination with the solution itself, is said to form a semiconductor >> LED. > > > True, but the possibility of *both* types of glow is not excluded either. > >> If I understood it, you're suggesting that the insulator+solution >> might form the equivalent of _two_ reversed diodes in parallel (_not_ >> series), and the one with the higher resistance and higher forward >> voltage drop is the one associated with the blue glow. > > > I suggest that the insulator + solution forms a single diode when the > insulator is properly "conditioned". Given two properly conditioned > electrodes in an AC cell, they act like back-to-back diodes, and thus > act like a capacitor - though one with a bit of a bypass resistor. > Given one conditioned electrode and one electrode with no conditioned > insulator, the cell acts like a diode. In that case the conditioned > electrode is a cathode when conducting, an anode when it opposes > current flow. This effect I attributed to low anion mobility in the > interphase. Proton mobility is comparatively high everywhere in the cell. > > >> So, the glow shows when the high-drop diode is _forward_ biased, as >> we would expect from solid state LED experience. (A first glance at >> this situation, before reading your paper, made it seem like the glow >> was associated with a _reverse_ biased diode, which seemed harder to >> understand.) >> >> Er ... at least, I think that's what you said? > > > No, just the opposite. A conditioned electrode produces the glow when > it is reverse biased, i.e. when it is an *anode* in the cell. It is > accepting electrons from the electrolyte. It is creating free protons > in an extraordinarily strong electrostatic field at its surface. The > experimental evidence for this was all carefully described in > and in the related > posts here on vortex around Feb. 2002. > > I hope that is helpful - it is not easy to describe these concepts. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 04:31:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07CUA1Z030983; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:31:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0758akg017772; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:08:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:56:53 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E15DE9B78854-118C-7224@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <5543242.1136573697285.JavaMail.root@fepweb12> <8C7E10C07190C4C-118C-6684@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> <004f01c61317$06e786d0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <8C7E15D9D312DEE-118C-721C@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E15D9D312DEE-118C-721C@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Fwd: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d To: johnwc@patmedia.net Sent: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:54:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Wanted: CEO Cold Fusion Company Not D2 and SLC !! It's the owners of D2 and Gibson . . . both in Vancouver. You know . . . networking at the "club". ;-) -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello What does D2Fusion have to do with Salt Lake City? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 06:52:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07Epo3V029831; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 06:51:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07EpnSC029814; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 06:51:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 06:51:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:47:55 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 6, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Thanks for the additional explanation and the reference to the 2002 > paper. > > I'll take the time to read what you've already said about this a > bit more carefully before I post any further comment No need for blushing! This is not trivial stuff, at least for me. In fact, Nyle Steiner refers to the conditioned electrode as the cathode in : Begin quote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "The aluminum becomes the cathode after a forming process of applying some ac current through the rectifier. Often, many jars were used in order to accomodate high voltages. It has been reported from various sources, that these rectifiers would also emit a faint glow when in operation. While experimenting with these rectifiers, I have found them to work quite well and I have been able to observe the glow. It was also easy to make full wave rectifiers using more than one rectifier in traditional full wave rectifier circuits. A rectifier can be easily made by mixing borax or baking soda into a pint jar of water and inserting an aluminum strip and a strip of another metal. After a forming process of running ac current between the two electrodes, the aluminum electrode becomes the cathode and the other electrode becomes the anode. It seems that aluminum is necessary for the cathode, but the anode can be just about anything that conducts electricity. The aluminum cathode can be a 3/8" wide strip cut from an aluminum pie plate. The anode can be lead, carbon, steel or stainless steel. Copper tends to make a bluish green mess and does not seem as desireable. I have found most types of anode materials to work the same but the differences may be a long term effect not easily observed in the course of my experiments." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end quote. This is utterly confusing when the objective is to obtain the blue- green glow and *not to build or describe a rectifier*. When a cell with a conditioned electrode (e.g. aluminum or nickel) and a neutral electrode (e.g. platinum) is operating as a diode and is in the maximum current direction, i.e. the "forward" direction, the conditioned electrode is indeed the cathode, from an electrochemical point of view. However, if the objective is to drive the cell with DC current in order to condition an electrode or to produce the blue-green glow, then it is the *anode* that is the electrode where this happens. This is fully consistent with the notion that the glow occurs during reverse bias of the diode cell. Below is the report of the experiment where I first discovered the glow was occurring on electrodes operating as anodes, and where I was very careful to check the diode polarity and to conduct control experiment to rule out the added HV diodes as being part of the effect. At the time I was unaware that glow on electrolytic rectifier plates was commonly known, or even that they existed for that matter. I was doing electrospark experiments, so even distinguishing the glow regime from the electrospark regime in the AC experiments was a pretty exciting event. The DC experiment was quite a surprise. As you might be able to tell from the report, I had doubts about the polarity. It just was not what I expected. Begin report by H Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Experiment Report 11/7/97 Added water to electrolyte to compensate for evaporation. "Warmed up" cell by running at about 100 mA (variac at 10 then up to to 20 %) for about 5 minutes. Glow clearly visible in dark but noise not yet started. Put some dummy diode pairs (P1 and P2) rated at 15kV Peak V, 100 mA, into circuit like so: P1 and P2 both look like: -----|>|------- | | ---|<|---- Circuit: --------V1----T1--A1---P1------o || || --------V1----T1-------P2------o V1 - variac T1 - HV transformer A1 - mA meter Pi - dummy diode pairs Continued to run as before about 5 minutes. Both electrode glowed as before. This verifies that 2 pairs of these particular type of diodes work OK in circuit. Tried geiger counter within about 1" of electrodes. Got no increased counts. Switched off variac when current was at 70 mA, leaving voltage setting alone. Then inserted full bridge B1 made of same type of diodes: Circuit: --------V1----T1--A1----B1------o + || || || --------V1----T1--------B1------o - V1 - variac T1 - HV transformer A1 - mA meter B1 - full rectifier bridge Switched on variac and noted: (1) only one electrode lit, the other was totally dark (2) it was not nearly as bright as before (3) noticeably more gas evolved at the dark electrode when DC used (4) same current (about 70 mA). (5) unexpectedly, it was the anode that lit. (6) the full surface of the anode lit, as before Swapped + and - leads and the other electrode lit. Glow went with the + pole. Just to check my understanding, the diodes are marked with a stripe at the end: P N -------|>|------- stripe at this end of diode indicates diode cathode i -----> conventional current moves this way <--- e- electrons move this way only - end + end If circuit is like below then electrode marked + is anode of cell: --------V1----T1--A1----|>|-----o + || || --------V1----T1--------|<|-----o - It is the anode of the cell, the electrode closest to the bar on the diode that glows. This indicates that the glow is oxygen related and not hydrogen related. It likely is oxidation reaction of Al. That is a very bright reaction, so that makes some sense. The reduced brightness indicates that maybe hydrogen plays a role in adding heat to the reaction? Or maybe the H2 is necessary to produce full bubble collapse along with massive heat of recombination focused in sonoluminescent bubbles? Could it be that some other electrode metals glow also, but in invisible parts of spectrum. If so, they should still produce the noise, the cavitation, provided the oxide is an insulator. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end 11/7/97 report by H Heffner. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 10:00:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07I0Aog016432; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:00:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07HihxT012291; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:44:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:44:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 12:39:21 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E1C86D9628C5-1988-6A7D@mblkn-m15.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Heim Theory: A Real Warp Drive Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.133 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k07HifvG012258 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I came across this while searching for six dimensional theories: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html excerpt: Claims of the possibility of "gravity reduction" or "anti-gravity" induced by magnetic fields have been investigated by NASA before (New Scientist, 12 January 2002, p 24). But this one, Dröscher insists, is different. "Our theory is not about anti-gravity. It's about completely new fields with new properties," he says. And he and Häuser have suggested an experiment to prove it. This will require a huge rotating ring placed above a superconducting coil to create an intense magnetic field. With a large enough current in the coil, and a large enough magnetic field, Dröscher claims the electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational pull on the ring to the point where it floats free. Dröscher and Häuser say that to completely counter Earth's pull on a 150-tonne spacecraft a magnetic field of around 25 tesla would be needed. While that's 500,000 times the strength of Earth's magnetic field, pulsed magnets briefly reach field strengths up to 80 tesla. And Dröscher and Häuser go further. With a faster-spinning ring and an even stronger magnetic field, gravitophotons would interact with conventional gravity to produce a repulsive anti-gravity force, they suggest. There's more here; but, this is harder to understand than Beta-atmosphere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 10:33:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07IXHMZ032263; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:33:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07IXFS0032219; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:33:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:33:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060107183306270.41E948000082@mwinf3214.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060107183306.00a09870@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:33:06 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Heim Theory: A Real Warp Drive Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k07IXCsu032158 Resent-Message-ID: <5AzVgC.A.V3H.qlAwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:39 pm 07/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: >I came across this while searching for six dimensional theories: > >http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html > >excerpt: > >Claims of the possibility of "gravity reduction" or "anti-gravity" >induced by magnetic fields have been investigated by NASA before (New >Scientist, 12 January 2002, p 24). But this one, Dröscher insists, is >different. "Our theory is not about anti-gravity. It's about completely >new fields with new properties," he says. And he and Häuser have >suggested an experiment to prove it. > >This will require a huge rotating ring placed above a superconducting >coil to create an intense magnetic field. With a large enough current >in the coil, and a large enough magnetic field, Dröscher claims the >electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational pull on the ring to >the point where it floats free. Dröscher and Häuser say that to >completely counter Earth's pull on a 150-tonne spacecraft a magnetic >field of around 25 tesla would be needed. While that's 500,000 times >the strength of Earth's magnetic field, pulsed magnets briefly reach >field strengths up to 80 tesla. And Dröscher and Häuser go further. >With a faster-spinning ring and an even stronger magnetic field, >gravitophotons would interact with conventional gravity to produce a >repulsive anti-gravity force, they suggest. > > > >There's more here; but, this is harder to understand than >Beta-atmosphere: I'm very glad to hear it, Hohlraum. 8-) As the unveiling of the Beta-atmosphere proceeds I am confident that you will find it easier and easier to understand. If you really want to get stop press on the Beta-atmosphere and hear of new developments before they are edited and placed on Vortex, you should really become a moderator of the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo Group. This will allow you to read the files in the File and Photo section and download such files at maximum resolution so that the pages I haven't yet had time to OCR can be read at maximum resolution without straining your mince pies. ;-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 13:32:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07LU73t006835; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:32:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07Kgh5o015575; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:42:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:42:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c613c2$75d0a8f0$48037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: More questions Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:42:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61390.2AAE4440"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DSBL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61390.2AAE4440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61390.2AAFCAE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61390.2AAFCAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones and hohlraum, Thanks for the input regarding a microwave applied to the vortex. Jones = had mentioned it the past in a related post. The idea of using dual magnetrons for focused modes mentioned by = hohlraum is a thought worth pursuing also. As we continue, we keep actual results posted on VortexL.. We do not = patent. Some think us foolish but in the real world of technology, we = try to stay ahead by having products in use while others have their's = lounging in the patent office. Having a product in use provides the = feedback for improvements. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61390.2AAFCAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones and hohlraum,
 
Thanks for the input regarding a microwave applied to the vortex. = Jones had=20 mentioned it the past in a related post.
The idea of using dual magnetrons for focused modes mentioned by = hohlraum=20 is a thought worth pursuing also.
 
As we continue, we keep actual results posted on VortexL.. We do = not=20 patent. Some think us foolish but in the real world of technology, we = try to=20 stay ahead by having products in use while others have their's lounging = in the=20 patent office. Having a product in use provides the feedback for=20 improvements.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61390.2AAFCAE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61390.2AAE4440 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c613c2$752b8f50$48037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61390.2AAE4440-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 13:33:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07LU73v006835; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:32:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07KlEke017788; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:47:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00cb01c613bc$9caa8c80$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: 2006 : the year of the "small" ? Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:00:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <2LFSjB.A.4VE.RjCwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We all have some sensory perception for the heating ability of microwaves and lasers. That makes it all the more important to have the greatest respect for the "usable" level of energy found in the ultraviolet and gamma spectra, which we experience differently from a sensory perception. It should be axiomatic, that when we want to rave-on (justifiably) about the coming "nano" age, and the importance of nano technology to the coming LENR revolution, that we also have a grasp for the corresponding energy-density available using sub-micron radiation. UV radiation starts at about 300 nanometers. It has been over 5 years since this announcement below, which is about the minimum time necessary to get prototypes to market: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/10/001026091106.htm Here is one of several important web-sites for a handful of companies now making these solid state UV lasers. My New Year prediction for 2006 is that they will be used this year for the first time, ushering-in the next step in LENR (but no one else in the field may yet realize this for a few months). http://www.dpss-lasers.com/NewsArchive.htm BTW, let me confess up-front that my 2005 predictions were not very accurate. Hopefully they were just premature in the timing, rather than wrong. I was recently mentioning to Frank Grimer the implication of the inverse 5th power which is part of Planck's Law when expressed as spectral energy density as a function of wavelength. There is an inverse fifth power law, so basically the implication is that if you can half the wavelength of applied input radiation in the relevant photon, then the "energy density" at an active site can increase by a factor of 32. For instance, even if both of two different one-watt lasers are employed, one visible and one UV (having the same total power) the actual end-result experienced at active sites, in a Letts/Cravens type LENR experiment, will not be the same - but instead there will be available an increase of x32 using UV. IOW, although the net input of energy remains the same, it will be expressed differently at the sub-micron level at the nuclear active site. Actually this 5th power is not exactly what "always" happens in practice, except at shorter wavelengths, but it is interesting to realize in regard to the possibility of augmenting an LENR reaction. In regard to the Letts/Cravens experiment where visible laser light is used, then by substituting a UV laser for the visible, if say the wavelength were halved, then the energy density at the active site could experience an increase of 3200% ... correct? As a follow-on to previous postings about the overriding problem inherent in LENR of "reverse economy of scale" consider the implication of all of this. The immediate implication is that the individual LENR cell of the future will be very small. It might consist only of one solid-state laser and a "dot" of metal loaded with D2. These cells might even be manufactured several hundred at a time using microlithography etching. The limitation of ultimate "smallness" will likely be related to the size of the UV laser... IF ... that is (big if) the Letts/Cravens effect can be harnessed reliably - and, yes, there is much indication of that reliability coming from the folks at SRI. Yet I do not think that even the geniuses at SRI have yet realized fully the implications of "reverse economy of scale" and how this chapter of the effort will now begin to unfold - that is by going smaller, not larger... and obviously this process will be aided by using all that we have learned from semiconductor manufacturing ... which BTW includes the TEC conversion cell itself (direct heat to electricity conversion) which can be etched onto the chip at the same time, in theory. And guess what - SRI is perfectly located to take advantage of all this expertise. This smallness only makes sense in a "net" energy approach when there is a large multiple coming from the underlying reaction itself. Obviously, this is always true in the nuclear scenario where the ratio is usually from a million to one (compared with combustion) to 10 million to one. Any guesses on who will be the first LENR researcher to apply a UV laser to a small cell? Perhaps it will be someone lurking out in Vo-land whose mental-light-bulb has just now been switched on. Blacklight light-bulb no less. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 14:16:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07MFnBm001181; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:15:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07MFkdx001150; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:15:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:15:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060107170810.03448838@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:10:34 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Outrageous comments about cold fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From the Washington Post, Jan. 8, 2006: TRIALS & ERRORS Barely a Drop of Fraud Why It Shouldn't Taint Our View of Science By Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles Sunday, January 8, 2006; Page B03 Seldom in our history have fame, fortune or a heady mix of the two tempted so many people into committing fraud. The halls of Congress are reverberating with the jingle of hastily discarded donations as elected officials distance themselves from lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Onetime employees have not forgotten Enron, WorldCom and the giant compensation packages of failed CEOs. No surprise, then, that South Korean biologist Hwang Woo Suk, the putative creator of Snuppy, the first cloned dog, should come to occupy the spotlight of suspicion. There is doubtless a sense of schadenfreude among people envious of -- and at the same time fearful of -- scientists whose work they only partially understand but nonetheless depend on. Some are even asking whether biomedical research can be trusted. But the specter of a cloud of fraud hanging over the microscopes and telescopes of scientists around the world is largely imaginary. It is true that there have been some great scientific misdeeds in the past. Who can forget Piltdown Man , the manufactured fossil skull that puzzled anthropologists for decades? Or the claims of the discovery of cold fusion in 1989 at the University of Utah? But those examples are famous because they are so rare. And, as the South Korean stem cell case shows, the scientific process means that frauds are typically revealed before they harm anything but the reputations of the perpetrators themselves. The far greater risk is that they erode our faith in science. After all, the vast majority of scientific research is honest. True enough, laboratories such as Hwang's are filled with men and women as eager as the rest of us for fortune and fame. In their case, fortune can range from the renewal of grant money (many U.S medical researchers depend entirely on this rather than salaries) or financial gain in the form of patents or stock options. For a special few, fame can mean Nobel Prizes. But the risks of fraud are very great as well. The taint of cheating can end a career in science in a single blow. The world of science is also intensely competitive, and there is a certain satisfaction within the scientific community when the spotlight of suspicion falls on a superstar like Hwang. He had enjoyed the kind of meteoric rise that most only dream of. A veterinary researcher at Seoul National University, Hwang won attention in 2004 for a paper in the pages of Science, the prestigious journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, documenting the first therapeutic cloning of new lines of stem cells from human embryos. Within a year, Hwang reported the cloning of Snuppy in the British journal Nature. These accomplishments made Hwang a hero in his home country, and his laboratory received millions in government funds. But almost as rapidly as his star had risen, his work was targeted by investigative reporters from a Korean television network, and a Korean scientific Web site uncovered false claims in his articles. Alerted to the irregularities, Hwang's American co-author, Gerald Schatten of the University of Pittsburgh Medical School, terminated his collaboration and later asked that his name be removed from the papers. Hwang, suffering from stress, announced he was retracting the Science paper but maintained that his work was basically sound. So there it stands. Hwang has suggested that someone, perhaps an assistant who had left his lab to take a job in Pittsburgh, may have switched the samples that were tested, and that he had, as he asserted at first, achieved the cloning. The issue is still muddled but what is clear is that in less than two years since Hwang made his claims, this case of scientific fraud has come to dominate headlines. In the international field of stem cell research, controversy mounts upon controversy. First, there is the question of the efficacy of the peer review system, in which a journal's editor sends a paper to authorities in a field who decide if the work is original and valuable. Less visible in this instance is the nature of the research itself, which some scientists oppose on moral grounds. The cascading series of accusations runs the gamut from questions about the source of the human eggs and the technique used to create -- if Hwang actually did -- new stem cell colonies. These experiments occurred outside the circle of Western science, raising questions, too, about the regulation of research elsewhere. There are thousands of scientists working in Asia, many of whom, unlike Hwang, were trained in the United States. There are also more scientific journals than ever before (although the journals Hwang published in are the oldest and most respected of them all). While everyone in the field agrees that the experiments have to be confirmed, they do not agree that the review process was inadequate. They suggest that the system does work because, with these results under suspicion, efforts will soon be made to replicate Hwang's techniques. To suggest, as has been done, that the global spread of science, and of scientific error, accidental or deliberate, is due to the non-Western scene of the alleged crime smacks of racism. The real significance lies in the swift action of the Korean press in exposing the irregularities in the paper and in the procedures used to procure the human eggs -- and that this happened before damage extended beyond the reputations of the scientists involved. Similarly, the Piltdown hoax, which was revealed decades after the manipulated skull's supposed discovery, caused no collateral damage. Paleontology, a historical science, did not have an immediate impact on contemporary physics or medicine. And cold fusion was swiftly debunked, which kept its costs confined to the state of Utah. Biomedicine became a target of investigation after the cornucopia of possibility opened by the discovery of DNA in 1953. Laboratories flourished and hanky-panky was discovered first in 1974, when William Summerlin, a physician working at Sloan-Kettering in New York, reported that tissue kept in organ culture for a period of time could be transplanted without rejection. To prove his point, he used a black marking pen to doctor the backs of two white mice. When the mice were later examined, Summerlin admitted the fraud and took a recommended medical leave of absence. Then, in 1981, John R. Darsee, a cardiology researcher at Harvard, was secretly observed by suspicious colleagues blatantly forging raw data. The National Institutes of Health later concluded that Darsee had committed multiple fakeries, and in 1983, at age 34, Darsee was banned from eligibility for grants for 10 years. With the global proliferation of biomedical research, there may be other incidents like the ones involving Darsee and Summerlin, and most likely the inability to replicate the doctored claims will gainsay the research. As for the Korean stem cells, the experiment has not been replicated, and its claims have not changed the direction of research. Much of the public believes that science is the best guide to understanding what is happening in our increasingly interconnected world. Whether they believe in evolutionary theory or not, people know that viruses from birds change and can become lethal to human beings, and everyone hopes that science can devise a way to protect us from a pandemic. Medical research in the United States can save lives in India, and stem cells in Korea may help treat Parkinson's victims in France. Accepting scientific evidence means more than cheering medical progress. It is vital to pay attention to the icebergs melting at both magnetic poles, which signals changes in the flow of the Gulf Stream, for example. When cries of fraud clump all scientific research into doubt, it raises the risk that real science, good science, will be disregarded -- and our descendants may suffer in ways we can too well imagine. Author's e-mail : bettyann.kevles@yale.edu Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles is a lecturer in history at Yale University and the author of "Almost Heaven: The Story of Women in Space" (MIT Press). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 14:30:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07MUL97007701; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:30:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07MUDZf007640; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:30:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:30:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060107172902.034482e0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060107170734.033906f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:30:00 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message to Prof. Kevles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: WHAT A JERK! To: bettyann.kevles@yale.edu, opinions@washingtonpost.com Subject: Your comments about cold fusion Dear Prof. Kevles, Your comments about cold fusion are beyond the pale. Cold fusion was never "debunked" and even the harshest critics until now have never suggested that it was fraudulent. The cold fusion effect was replicated at high signal to noise ratios by researchers at the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division at China Lake, Shell, Amoco, SRI, Texas A&M, Los Alamos, Mitsubishi Res. Center, BARC Bombay, Tsinghua U. and over a hundred other world-class laboratories. Hundreds of positive, peer-reviewed papers on cold fusion have been published in mainstream journals, including Ziran Kexueban, Curr. Topics Electrochem., Denki Kagaku oyobi Kogyo Butsuri Kagaku, Electrochim. Acta, Fusion Sci. & Technol., Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, J. Fusion Energy, J. Electroanal. Chem., Jpn. J. Appl. Phys., Kotai Butsuri, Naturwiss., Phys. Lett. A, J. Phys. Chem. and ~200 others. Hundreds of papers from the laboratories listed above are available on line at our web site, and in the on-line archives of Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. and other journals. So you can easily confirm these facts. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the literature before commenting on a field of research. Sincerely, Jed Rothwell Librarian http://lenr-canr.org/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 14:37:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07MawD2010446; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:37:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07MatbC010414; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:36:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:34:49 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k07MajpQ010325 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The key to anode fusion lies beyond merely creating the oxide film of a passivated anode, as described by Bockris. [J. O’M Bockris and A.K.N. Reddy, Modern Electrochemistry, Plenum Press, p.1319 ff.] The process of conditioning the anode must proceed to the point where an insulating barrier is created that permits an electrostatic field intensity sufficient to ionize an OH molecule. In other words, the surface barrier of the oxide film must be thick enough that electron tunneling to the anode only occurs at a voltage beyond the ionizing voltage of the OH molecule. When an electron is stripped from the neutral OH molecule (or possibly water for that mater) the proton of the OH molecule is freed, set lose within the high intensity electrostatic field required to create the electron catalyzed fusion generating cascade within the electrolyte. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 14:38:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k07McFtA011028; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k07McAL1011001; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060107164116.03449948@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:52:09 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Japanese population falls, and other 2005 trends Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Preliminary results indicate that the population of Japan fell by ~10,000 in 2005. This is the first time this has happened since modern censuses began in the late 19th century. In 1945, the total population probably declined, but the population in the Japanese archipelago increased because of people returned from Korea and other defunct colonies. 2005 probably also marked the peak of oil production, according to K. Deffeyes. (http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/) Also, the Toyota is poised to overtake General Motors as the world's largest auto manufacturer. The actual production numbers hardly matter, as pointed out by Koji Endo, auto analyst with Credit Suisse First Boston in Tokyo. He was quoted in an AP article: "It's bound to happen either next year or the year after," Endo said of Toyota's outstripping General Motors. "But perhaps there isn't much point to the question. It doesn't make much sense to be comparing vehicle production numbers between the world's most profitable automaker and one that's on the verge of collapse." I get a sense that history is progressing and that irrevocable, long overdue changes are finally coming about. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 20:39:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k084cmrM004969; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 20:38:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k084cjPZ004953; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 20:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 20:38:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <43C09749.3010406@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:38:33 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heim Theory: A Real Warp Drive References: <8C7E1C86D9628C5-1988-6A7D@mblkn-m15.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7E1C86D9628C5-1988-6A7D@mblkn-m15.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > I came across this while searching for six dimensional theories: > > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html > > excerpt: > > Claims of the possibility of "gravity reduction" or "anti-gravity" > induced by magnetic fields have been investigated by NASA before (New > Scientist, 12 January 2002, p 24). But this one, Dröscher insists, is > different. "Our theory is not about anti-gravity. It's about > completely new fields with new properties," he says. And he and Häuser > have suggested an experiment to prove it. > > This will require a huge rotating ring placed above a superconducting > coil to create an intense magnetic field. With a large enough current > in the coil, and a large enough magnetic field, Dröscher claims the > electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational pull on the ring to > the point where it floats free. Dröscher and Häuser say that to > completely counter Earth's pull on a 150-tonne spacecraft a magnetic > field of around 25 tesla would be needed. While that's 500,000 times > the strength of Earth's magnetic field, pulsed magnets briefly reach > field strengths up to 80 tesla. And Dröscher and Häuser go further. > With a faster-spinning ring and an even stronger magnetic field, > gravitophotons would interact with conventional gravity to produce a > repulsive anti-gravity force, they suggest. > > > > There's more here; but, this is harder to understand than > Beta-atmosphere: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > Nice one! This guys just reinvented John Searls seg. The seg self cools to extremely low temperature and has spinning rollers on spinning rings. If only we could convert Johns theory into equations we would be on our way. The field strengths are about right. Dröscher and Häuser may have done the equations that we need. Wont it be cool to have a true space drive finally. Wont it be even cooler to discover that we had a prototype in the 1960's! That will give the skeptics a migraine. I wonder how the equations fit with Dr Podkletnov's work? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 7 21:14:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k085E4id022960; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:14:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k085E2On022933; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:14:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:14:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012e01c61412$503930d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Vortex" References: <006f01c6125d$bda16f90$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Subject: Re: D2Fusion Website Being Updated Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:13:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Coviello >D2fusion is finally upgrading their website: >http://www.D2fusion.com. Some signs of life from this fledgling >cold fusion enterprise. Also, their parent company Solar Ltd. >has seen some action in its stock SLRE the last few days. >Perhaps something is brewing out in California? ...and a most interesting management lineup: http://www.d2fusion.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=25&Itemid=52 cool ... but apropos of nothing really, I haven't seen this proportion of Boardroom facial hair in some time. Except for the CFO, this looks like a meeting of left-coast physics professors (probably not that far off !) Revenge of the Greybeards? ... Pathological science with an Hollywood flair? ... or Al Gore as the neo-hipster trendsetter for the anti-mainstream? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 01:33:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k089W6YZ014464; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k089TaCC013229; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:29:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:29:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:27:08 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Molecule Energy (eV) -------- --------- H 13.6 H2 15.4 OH 13.0 H2O 12.6 HO2 11.4 H2O2 10.5 Fig. 1 - Molecular Ionization Potentials in Gas The above table shows that water requires about the same but less potential to ionize than OH. Given an H2O or OH molecule is about 1 angstrom in length, a field gradient of over 1.3x10^11 V/m is sufficient to ionize OH to O + p + e-. Thus in a two step process at the anode surface we have: H2O ---> OH + p + e- ---> O + p + p + 2e- If this can happen in a single step, but producing a paired electron 2e- boson, then this reaction is ideal for creating the dual electron catalysis ingredients. If we assume the potential drop at the cathode is about 2 volts, and our cell operating voltage is 200 volts DC, the anode voltage drop can be spread over about 15 atomic layers. The anode interphase can be about 15 molecules thick and yet support the required free proton release at a diode layer breakdown voltage of 200 V, which is readily achievable. The formation of hydrogen peroxide should be suppressed at over 1.3x10^11 V/m. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 03:15:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08BErcd002693; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 03:14:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08BEmZX002652; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 03:14:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 03:14:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=D/6skxtP8A0mt8iACsGpHg+SOhgdcqb0AGGMfZ3W6ByY+RQ1X/x+nHUJS3FWV+E+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061081187862@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tethered Flying Wing Wind Power Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:08:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403c6ff5469f5b90fc8a2b00f7b890fbdc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Although the Magenn "Balloon Turbine" is novel, a tethered (three computer controlled payout winches) airfoil"a lightweight/hollow flying wing" launched by feeding power to the multiple generators until the wind holds it up is a lot cheaper . Battery backup applies soft landing power in case of wind failure. NASA Glenn Airfoil Simulator: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Air Density Calculator: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm Styrofoam Density-Properties: http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/ap/china/prod/prop_fab.htm Patents that reference our 1973 patent, US 3,751,869 can show how to use welded wire reinforcement of Styrafoam. Simply plug 3,751,860 into "Term 1" and hie "Search" at this URL: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html Are Aerogels on the Horizon? http://members.tripod.com/~geobeck/frontier/aerogels.html Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Although the Magenn "Balloon Turbine" is novel, a tethered (three computer controlled
payout winches) airfoil"a lightweight/hollow flying wing"  launched by feeding
power to the multiple generators until the wind holds it up is a lot cheaper .
Battery backup applies soft landing power in case of wind failure.
 
NASA Glenn Airfoil Simulator:
 
 
Air Density Calculator:
 
 
Styrofoam Density-Properties:
 
 
Patents that reference our  1973 patent, US 3,751,869 can show
how to use welded wire reinforcement of Styrafoam. Simply
plug 3,751,860 into "Term 1" and  hie "Search" at this URL:
 
 
Are Aerogels on the Horizon?
 
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 04:36:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08CUatl000330; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:35:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08CSNp6031419; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:28:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A0xedd68XDAoCRs+Im5Rnhob9EtXoqu6id/y7l+miU3bIaiVICdfwuTJiSObBofd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200610812272749@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Tethered Flying Wing Wind Power Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 05:27:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400c40c834175264ed10c0c37539122a2f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.148 Resent-Message-ID: <3DMULD.A.jqH.kVQwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Or you can attach a soft plastic tube to the bottom center of it and have Frank Grimer pump it full of concrete (or high pressure water?) to make a permanent support tower. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 1/8/2006 4:14:55 AM Subject: Re: Tethered Flying Wing Wind Power Although the Magenn "Balloon Turbine" http://www.magenn.com/products.php is novel, a tethered (three computer controlled payout winches) airfoil"a lightweight/hollow flying wing" launched by feeding power to the multiple generators until the wind holds it up is a lot cheaper . Battery backup applies soft landing power in case of wind failure. NASA Glenn Airfoil Simulator: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Air Density Calculator: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm Styrofoam Density-Properties: http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/ap/china/prod/prop_fab.htm Patents that reference our 1973 patent, US 3,751,869 can show how to use welded wire reinforcement of Styrafoam. Simply plug 3,751,869 into "Term 1" and hit "Search" at this URL: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html Are Aerogels on the Horizon? http://members.tripod.com/~geobeck/frontier/aerogels.html Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Or you can attach a soft plastic tube to the bottom center of  it and have
Frank Grimer pump it full of concrete (or high pressure water?)
to make a permanent support tower.   :-)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/8/2006 4:14:55 AM
Subject: Re: Tethered Flying Wing Wind Power

Although the Magenn "Balloon Turbine" http://www.magenn.com/products.php 
is novel, a tethered (three computer controlled
payout winches) airfoil"a lightweight/hollow flying wing"  launched by feeding
power to the multiple generators until the wind holds it up is a lot cheaper .
Battery backup applies soft landing power in case of wind failure.
 
NASA Glenn Airfoil Simulator:
 
 
Air Density Calculator:
 
 
Styrofoam Density-Properties:
 
 
Patents that reference our  1973 patent, US 3,751,869 can show
how to use welded wire reinforcement of Styrafoam. Simply
plug 3,751,869 into "Term 1" and  hit "Search" at this URL:
 
 
Are Aerogels on the Horizon?
 
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 09:09:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08H92CD005579; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:09:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08H8vNM005526; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:08:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:08:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c61476$2d1a42b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00cb01c613bc$9caa8c80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: 2006 prediction: UV- LENR Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:08:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clarification of previous posting: ... since I may check back on this prediction in January 2007 (typically as a humbling experience, as I am no prophet) and since excimer near-UV lasers have indeed already been used in CF prior to now (successfully), let me hedge a little on this 'New Year prediction for 2006' which is specifically for the application of solid-state UV to a Letts/Cravens type LENR cell (which is magnetized). Furthermore, and most importantly I think the results will be so spectacular that a clear route to a commercial device will then be evident (at least to futurists). This is significant in itself because the "end-game" has never really been all that evident in LENR before (outside of JR's book, which is not that specific as to the details of the device itself). By 'end-game' it is meant a clear picture of what the commercial device will look like in detail. This predicted upcoming experiment will point directly to the advantage of using many very small LENR cells which are irradiated by UV in addition to having electrical contacts (to retain the full gas loading) plus it will have dual levels of etched microchannels - one for admitting pressurized D2 gas and the other for circulating the coolant to the TEC/TEPG (thermoelectric converter) cells - all formed on the same "chip" structure. The semiconductor laser and the TEC semiconductor used different types of semiconductors, so this may be a hybrid arrangement but the point is that -in effect - we have a 'integrated energy circuit,' manufactured using the well-know microlithography techniques of the semicondutor industry. Here is information already alluded to many times on vortex over the years about advanced TEC/TEPG ... which is going ro be both "nano" and "etched" in commercial devices: http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=738 http://quantum.soe.ucsc.edu/publications/HoKiScience04.pdf To backtrack a bit in the historical context: in '97-98 the Italians were already using UV irradiation and with great success (but apparently not many here remember it). Vincenzo Nassisi et al. did work reported in Infinite Energy, July-November 1997 "Morphologic Deformation and Distribution of Generated Elements in Saturated Palladium Samples Processed by a UV Excimer Laser," This article reports on the experimental results obtained from very thin saturated palladium hydrides irradiated by a XeCl excimer laser (bulky and inefficient). The wavelength was over 300 nm which actually is "near UV" but nevertheless the results were so successful and professionally done that one wonders what became of it. It should be noted that solid-state UV was NOT available then, and perhaps the Italian researchers could not imagine a successful "end game" based on using the eximer laser - so they did not press for continued funding. A short-sighted delay, let us say. However, the massive transmutation of many elements was evident in this work - and in very high percentages at the NAS (nuclear active sites). IN fact almost no Pd was left at those sites. No calorimetry was done, due to the contraints of the experment, but with this much nuclear transmutation, surely there is significant excess energy potential and without radiation risks (which were absent). This experiment begs to be repeated using loaded-titanium as the target, and solid state lasers, which are also now at the "near UV' level of around 300 nm. When they reach 150 nm, then an additional 3200% of spectral energy density will be available. At that point, the 'end-game will be crystal clear and commercialization is almost inevitable ;-) Yeah, I know. That may be well past 2006, but let's hear it for 'optimism' at least at the first of January. This Italian job - and so many other promising experiments were perhaps a few years ahead of their time, and probably fell victim to funding contstraints, but to me the impressive results are 'one more brick in the wall' of growing "Connections" (in the tradition of Burke) which will eventually enclose the LENR arena and usher in a new age of cheap distributed power. How is that for a promising-poetic-prediction? ... and why am I sounding like a one-man-band when it comes to exuding a high degree of optimisim for LENR in 2006? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 10:41:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08IfEQ9020581; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:41:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08If5wt020464; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:41:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:41:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=LpKpQAjoMGEU5BGFENbHMHGZbmfkw47nPAYYIhZhKISsxpJBSMhrMgl1+YX6su2R; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200610818404287@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Betavoltaic Power Supplies Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:40:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c636a00aa870a2da21c7e56f9997787c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.195 Resent-Message-ID: <8dkHdD.A.d_E._yVwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.qynergy.com/ http://www.qynergy.com/DEF-QynergyApprops-rel-1-11-05.htm " In late 2004, Qynergy technical team achieved electrical power output with the highest beta energy isotope ever used in betavoltaic demonstrations. Using their proprietary device design and a high energy beta- isotope, the team measured electrical current and voltage that very closely matched their models. Betavoltaic power generation is similar to solar or photovoltaic power generation, but uses radioisotopes instead of the sunlight as the energy source. Beta isotopes are well suited for energy cells because they are easier to shield and contain than alpha or gamma radiation. The amount of power that can be generated is determined by the energy of the isotopes used." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
 
" In late 2004, Qynergy technical team achieved electrical power output with the highest beta energy isotope ever used in betavoltaic demonstrations. Using their proprietary device design and a high energy beta- isotope, the team measured electrical current and voltage that very closely matched their models. Betavoltaic power generation is similar to solar or photovoltaic power generation, but uses radioisotopes instead of the sunlight as the energy source. Beta isotopes are well suited for energy cells because they are easier to shield and contain than alpha or gamma radiation. The amount of power that can be generated is determined by the energy of the isotopes used."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 11:10:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08J9pS8010441; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:10:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08J9oHU010421; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:09:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Cv+20ddTK7qEUAmsyqJXDkLqsTYfkJ5SbLb70P4YpGy5yZiBYKpg2BEGJdq75QzG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200610819942158@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hero's Engine & One-Man Helicopter Rotors Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:09:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409e1372fa4c41daa1924e2158671a0ccb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.59 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Five gallons of Water plus 4 gallons of Propane, and Thou. Rotor Tip-Trailing Edge Orifice Flow Calculator: Ammonia & Steam are close enough. http://www.lenoxlaser.com/calculator/orifice.asp Safety Disclaimer. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Five gallons of Water plus 4 gallons of Propane, and Thou.
 
Rotor Tip-Trailing Edge Orifice Flow Calculator: Ammonia & Steam are close enough.
 
 
Safety Disclaimer.   :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 11:30:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08JUKFN020102; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:30:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08IZSoJ015220; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:35:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:35:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:33:07 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the high electrostatic field of the 10-15 molecule thick anode interphase taking a 200 V potential drop, we can expect powerful and rigid bonding of water into chains of stretched molecules. In this environment we can expect collective molecular actions, one of which is "Interatomic Coulombic Decay" as described in the Physics News Update quote below: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 705 October 20, 2004 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein ATOMS CAN TRANSFER THEIR INTERNAL "STRESS" TO OTHER ATOMS, new experiments have revealed. Compared to atoms that are all by themselves, atoms with a close neighbor have a very efficient and surprising way to get rid of excess internal energy. An excited atom can hand over its energy to a neighbor, a research team led by the University of Frankfurt has demonstrated experimentally in a measurement carried out at the Berlin synchrotron facility BESSY II (R. Doerner, doerner@hsb.uni-frankfurt.de). Predicted in 1997 by a group at Heidelberg University (Cederbaum et al., Phys Rev. Lett, 15 Dec 1997), this decay mechanism occurs when atoms or molecules lump together. Once an excited particle is placed in an environment of other particles such as in clusters or fluids, the novel de-excitation mechanism, called "Interatomic Coulombic Decay," leads to the emission of very low-energy electrons from a particle that is neighboring the initially excited one (see figure at www.aip.org/png). The researchers demonstrated the effect in a pair of weakly bound neon atoms. The two neon atoms were separated by 3.4 Angstroms (about 6 times the radius of the neon atom) and held together by a weak "van der Waals" bond. Removing a tightly bound electron from one of the neon atoms allowed one of the less tightly bound atoms to jump down to the tightly bound spot and in the process gained energy. The extra energy was not sufficient to liberate any of the remaining electrons in the same neon atom, but it was sufficient to release an electron in the neighboring atom. This newly verified effect may have a wide-ranging impact in chemistry and biology since it is predicted to happen frequently in most hydrogen-bonded systems, most prominently liquid water. Furthermore, it may be an important, and so far unknown, source of low-energy electrons, which have recently been shown to cause damage to DNA (see http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/636-1.html). (Jahnke et al., Physical Review Letters, 15 October 2004; also see researchers' website at http://hsb.uni-frankfurt.de/photoncluster/ICD.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - End Phys. Rev. Lett. article Such a process may well provide a mechanism for electron boson formation and for energy focusing phenomena in the anode interphase. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 11:57:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08JvEYm003352; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:57:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08JvBDS003334; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:57:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:57:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:56:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > Such a process may well provide a mechanism for electron boson > formation and for energy focusing phenomena in the anode > interphase. That is an interesting paper you have up at: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PairLNR.pdf Very provocative... and having been thinking lately about the features, and real identity (and past mis-characterization) of Dirac's monopole, the possibility might exist for some overlap with the characteristics of the e-boson ...? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 12:23:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08KNEwh019992; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:23:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08KNCdN019959; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:23:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:23:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 11:21:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > >> Such a process may well provide a mechanism for electron boson >> formation and for energy focusing phenomena in the anode interphase. > > > That is an interesting paper you have up at: > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PairLNR.pdf > > > Very provocative... and having been thinking lately about the > features, and real identity (and past mis-characterization) of > Dirac's monopole, the possibility might exist for some overlap with > the characteristics of the e-boson ...? > > Jones The the 2e- boson, due to full superposition and opposed electron spin, has no magnetic field. A monopole with spin would have an electric dipole field. If non-zero spin monopoles exist, of the Dirac kind or otherwise, then they might be able to form a monopole boson having no electric dipole field. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 13:26:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08LQcst017720; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:26:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08LQZBs017691; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:26:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:26:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060108212626441.6BBA31C00147@mwinf3002.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060108212626.00989200@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:26:26 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Tethered Flying Wing Wind Power Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:27 am 08/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Or you can attach a soft plastic tube to the bottom center of it and have >Frank Grimer pump it full of concrete (or high pressure water?) >to make a permanent support tower. :-) Good idea. High pressures keep space rockets from collapsing in a heap on the launching pad. 8-) But perhaps one would need something they only got round to doing on nuclear waste ponds after the horse had bolted, i.e. double walled structures so that leaks can be detected and contained. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 13:30:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08LU5ZC019674; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08LCnLK012279; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:12:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:12:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace > The the 2e- boson, due to full superposition and opposed > electron spin, has no magnetic field. A monopole with spin > would have an electric dipole field. If non-zero spin > monopoles exist, of the Dirac kind or otherwise, then they > might be able to form a monopole boson having no electric > dipole field. Do you see any difference with the 2e-boson and the Cooper pair? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 13:35:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08LZCZM023000; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:35:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08LZ6bD022929; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:35:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:32:59 -0900 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <5_bR2D.A.BmF.JWYwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There have been a number of recent updates to . Of specific interest to the person who forwarded the original question to Bill Beaty regarding the cell electroluminescence, is the following updated section: ELECTRON-HOLE ANNIHILATION HYPOTHESIS The above conjectures are exciting, but not the simplest or most credible. A more credible hypothesis is that the glow comes from electron-hole annihilation at the interface between the electrolyte and the oxide coating. The oxide layer that is effective in producing the glow becomes black, i.e. non-reflective, when it becomes effective[4]. A similar effect was noted by Steiner when making negative resistance layer on zinc. [8] A reasonable hypothesis then is that the black semi conductive oxide layer forms the basis for both negative resistance, the diode effect, and when combined with a transparent cathode like an electrolyte, the glow effect. The oxide layer then is acting like an N-type semiconductor conducting in reverse-bias, i.e. conducting with the minority charge carrier, conducting via holes. When an electron is stripped from an OH- and then annihilates with a hole, a photon is produced (possibly two, with only one visible.) The electrolyte is thus acting like a P-type semiconductor in reverse bias, i.e. conducting with the minority charge carrier, conducting via holes. The reverse bias operation of the electrolyte-oxide system is thus exactly the opposite of the forward current operation of a standard LED. The direction of the photon energy is reversed. Electrons from the transparent cathode (the electrolyte) annihilate with holes in the oxide anode. When electrons and positrons annihilate, in order to maintain conservation of momentum, two photons are created having exactly opposed moment, i.e. directions. Perhaps the same happens with electron-hole annihilation, and, given the electrolyte is the transparent electrode, we simply see the opposite photon from the one we see in an LED. One problem with this hypothesis is that the glow color seems relatively constant, despite a range of electrode materials. The glow color should change, depending on the hole energy. It is possible that both electron-hole annihilation and energetic free proton effects are happening in the blue-green glow creating interphase. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 13:42:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08LfRKH027170; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:41:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08LfMEp027121; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:41:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:41:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:39:05 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: January 8, 2006 12:32:59 PM AKST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com There have been a number of recent updates to . Of specific interest to the person who forwarded the original question to Bill Beaty regarding the cell electroluminescence, is the following updated section: ELECTRON-HOLE ANNIHILATION HYPOTHESIS The above conjectures are exciting, but not the simplest or most credible. A more credible hypothesis is that the glow comes from electron-hole annihilation at the interface between the electrolyte and the oxide coating. The oxide layer that is effective in producing the glow becomes black, i.e. non-reflective, when it becomes effective[4]. A similar effect was noted by Steiner when making negative resistance layer on zinc. [8] A reasonable hypothesis then is that the black semi conductive oxide layer forms the basis for both negative resistance, the diode effect, and when combined with a transparent cathode like an electrolyte, the glow effect. The oxide layer then is acting like an N-type semiconductor conducting in reverse-bias, i.e. conducting with the minority charge carrier, conducting via holes. When an electron is stripped from an OH- and then annihilates with a hole, a photon is produced (possibly two, with only one visible.) The electrolyte is thus acting like a P-type semiconductor in reverse bias, i.e. conducting with the minority charge carrier, conducting via holes. The reverse bias operation of the electrolyte-oxide system is thus exactly the opposite of the forward current operation of a standard LED. The direction of the photon energy is reversed. Electrons from the transparent cathode (the electrolyte) annihilate with holes in the oxide anode. When electrons and positrons annihilate, in order to maintain conservation of momentum, two photons are created having exactly opposed moment, i.e. directions. Perhaps the same happens with electron-hole annihilation, and, given the electrolyte is the transparent electrode, we simply see the opposite photon from the one we see in an LED. One problem with this hypothesis is that the glow color seems relatively constant, despite a range of electrode materials. The glow color should change, depending on the hole energy. It is possible that both electron-hole annihilation and energetic free proton effects are happening in the blue-green glow creating interphase. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 13:54:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08Ls66o002798; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:54:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08Ls5Ro002780; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:54:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:54:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:52:05 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <007P5.A.Yr.9nYwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 12:12 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > Horace > >> The the 2e- boson, due to full superposition and opposed electron >> spin, has no magnetic field. A monopole with spin would have an >> electric dipole field. If non-zero spin monopoles exist, of the >> Dirac kind or otherwise, then they might be able to form a >> monopole boson having no electric dipole field. > > Do you see any difference with the 2e-boson and the Cooper pair? Yes. The Cooper pair electron waveforms need not be co-centered. They merely exhibit long range coherence of their momentums. The 2e- boson concept has the added condition that the waveforms are fully overlapped, but with spins opposed. They are energetically slightly bound by their magnetic fields when they are slightly perturbed. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 14:22:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08MMPvm022078; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:22:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08MMN30022046; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:22:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:22:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace >> Do you see any difference with the 2e-boson and the Cooper >> pair? > Yes. The Cooper pair electron waveforms need not be > co-centered. They merely exhibit long range coherence of their > momentums. The 2e- boson concept has the added condition that > the waveforms are fully overlapped, but with spins opposed. > They are energetically slightly bound by their magnetic fields > when they are slightly perturbed. Hmm. I'm having a hard time getting the mental picture, unless the spins are orthogonal to each other (two axis spin)... but you are saying that is not the case and the waveforms can overlap except for spin, which is opposed, so that it cancels the magnetic moment until the pair is perturbed, is that correct ? What happens to the angular momentum? This seems to deny conservation of angular momentum. Is the net charge as felt by other particles doubled? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 14:42:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08Mgb60003616; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:42:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08MgZDK003591; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:42:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:42:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino Catalyst Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:42:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:42:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k08MgVDk003514 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, This http://www.physorg.com/news9639.html could be used to create a conducting material with surface holes of 45.58 nm. This size should act as a resonant cavity for 27.2 eV, making the material a permanent Mills catalyst, potentially with a power output of kWs / cm^2. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 14:55:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08Mt5mh011948; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:55:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08Msd0G011703; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:54:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:54:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <013D7AB0-9B8D-4EB4-9FE0-97A82FB6DB5E@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:52:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > Hmm. I'm having a hard time getting the mental picture, unless the > spins are orthogonal to each other (two axis spin)... but you are > saying that is not the case and the waveforms can overlap except > for spin, which is opposed, so that it cancels the magnetic moment > until the pair is perturbed, is that correct ? Yes. Further, provided the magnetic binding energy is not exceeded by the coulomb force, the force between the electrons is attracting. > What happens to the angular momentum? This seems to deny > conservation of angular momentum. No problem there. 1 - 1 = 0 All balances before and after pair formation. > Is the net charge as felt by other particles doubled? Yes. However, in a superconductor, the waveform is very large, spread over many nuclei. The net charge in a superconductor is zero. When tunneling across a Josephson Junction, electrons (empirically) tunnel in pairs roughly as often as not. This to me indicates the biding energy is effective in creating a single event. It seems to me logical the tunneling of a pair to separate locations would be separate events. The target of the tunneling then is logically a single location. The constituants of such a combined tunneling thus also seem more likely to be bound as a single waveform. Given that the waveforms are fully co-centered, then there can be no Coulomb repulsion. Further, the magnetic field of opposed spin particles can maintain that lack of Coulomb repulsion. The center of charge of such a boson is a prospective locus for further tunneling of (the center of charge of) more such Bosons. Thus you have a mechanism for creating Ken Shoulder's condensed charge. The center of charge of the 2e- boson is similarly an ideal locus for the simultaneous tunneling of a pair of short-range cohered nuclei, like possibly the two hydrogen nuclei of the same water molecule. The powerful electrostatic field of the interphase brings the hydrogen "ears" of the water molecule close together. When such a water molecule pops, the two hydrogen nuclei may be especially receptive to a new 2e- boson home. It just happens electrons from the oxygen directly adjacent to and upstream from the "ears" is very willing at that instant to provide such a home. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 15:29:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08NTO5m030518; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:29:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08NTM9I030501; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:29:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008401c614ab$55620c50$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013D7AB0-9B8D-4EB4-9FE0-97A82FB6DB5E@mtaonline.net> Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:29:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace >> What happens to the angular momentum? This seems to deny >> conservation of angular momentum. > No problem there. 1 - 1 = 0 All balances before and after pair > formation. That doesn't look like a proper cross product, or else I don't understand the full situation. You have studied this more than me, obviously, but I was under the impression that as a psuedovector there would be no such additive cancellation. However, being mildly dyslexic I often get these kinds of spin things confused, so please correct this line of reasoning. Angular momentum is a pseudovector. Often, the distinction between vectors and pseudovectors is overlooked, but it only becomes important in understanding the effect of symmetry on the solution to physical system interactions. A pseudovector is a quantity that transforms like a vector under a proper rotation, but gains an additional sign flip under an improper rotation (a transformation that can be expressed as an inversion followed by a proper rotation which is what we have here with two electrons - an improper rotation). It follows that any improper rotation multiplies the cross product by -1 compared to a true vector. My take on the bottom line of this is that the angular momentum cancellation you seem to be basing this premise on cannot happen in normal physics. ...or did I get dyslexic again ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 15:31:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08NUnno031332; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:30:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08NUlJp031302; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:30:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:30:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:28:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <9FQdaB.A.-oH.mCawDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > Hmm. I'm having a hard time getting the mental picture... [snip] It just occurred to me the difficulty might be with understanding how the Coulomb charge is overcome. The charge of an electron is distributed throughout its waveform. The electron acts like a ghostly cloud of charge. The center of charge of that cloud, for an orbital electron, is very important in that the distance between that center of charge of the electron cloud and the nucleus determines, creates, effects like capacitance and piezoelectricity. This thought then brings up the question of what holds and two sides of the cloud together? The answer is, to understand the 2e- boson, it does not matter. It only matters that the cloud hangs together. One might dream up the notion that the electron cloud is merely the vibration of a string carrying charge along its length. However, that doesn't really jive directly with the more accepted concept of the electron waveform being a probability waveform, a time dependent function of event potentialities over a volume of space. It only matters here that the waveform of an electron holds together. Being merely a waveform, the electron has the ghostly qualities of a waveform. Once we accept the waveform concept it is easy to see how two electrons can overlap. If they are fully co-centered, and fully symmetric, for every charge volume on one side of the center of charge, the symmetric volume on the opposed side will carry exactly the same amount of charge. Their repulsive forces will exactly cancel to zero. The net internal (integrated) Coulomb force of an electron, or two fully superpositioned electrons for that matter, is exactly zero. Whatever holds an electron together holds the superpositioned pair waveform together. The only remaining internal force is magnetic, and that cancels if the spins are always opposed. It is of further interest aside that acceleration of the charged waveform does not yield a zero net internal force, and Puthoff et al have shown that the net resulting force accounts for inertia. The superposition of two electrons then merely amounts to the superposition of two ghostly clouds. It is readily acceptable that this happens in the orbitals of a large atom. It merely remains to accept that it can happen outside an atom. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 15:40:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08Ndu8x003566; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:39:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08NdrLH003524; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:39:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <008401c614ab$55620c50$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013D7AB0-9B8D-4EB4-9FE0-97A82FB6DB5E@mtaonline.net> <008401c614ab$55620c50$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:37:53 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <9qJPDB.A.A3.JLawDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 2:29 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > Horace > >>> What happens to the angular momentum? This seems to deny >>> conservation of angular momentum. > >> No problem there. 1 - 1 = 0 All balances before and after pair >> formation. > > That doesn't look like a proper cross product, or else I don't > understand the full situation. Conservation of angular momentum is conservation of the vector *sum* of the constituants of a system. > You have studied this more than me, obviously, but I was under the > impression that as a psuedovector there would be no such additive > cancellation. However, being mildly dyslexic I often get these > kinds of spin things confused, so please correct this line of > reasoning. Angular momentum is a pseudovector. Often, the > distinction between vectors and pseudovectors is overlooked, but it > only becomes important in understanding the effect of symmetry on > the solution to physical system interactions. A pseudovector is a > quantity that transforms like a vector under a proper rotation, but > gains an additional sign flip under an improper rotation (a > transformation that can be expressed as an inversion followed by a > proper rotation which is what we have here with two electrons - an > improper rotation). It follows that any improper rotation > multiplies the cross product by -1 compared to a true vector. > > My take on the bottom line of this is that the angular momentum > cancellation you seem to be basing this premise on cannot happen in > normal physics. > > ...or did I get dyslexic again ? > > Jones You are making the simple complex. Since before and after the proposed superposition the electrons share the same axis, view the electron angular momenta along a single axis. You don't need to think in vector addition terms then, just simple addition. The moments before superposition are +mu and -mu respectively. +mu - mu = 0 Net momentum of the system is zero. Afterwards the angular momentum is still zero. The net momentum of two counter-spinning gyros is zero. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 15:48:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k08NmITW007883; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:48:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k08NmFrF007829; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:48:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:48:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5EE6723E-2C9C-491B-9F86-0B9F49509F99@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:46:13 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <_tE9cC.A.M6B.-SawDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Hi, > > This http://www.physorg.com/news9639.html could be used to create > a conducting material with surface holes of 45.58 nm. This size > should act as a resonant cavity for 27.2 eV, making the material a > permanent Mills catalyst, potentially with a power output of kWs / > cm^2. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Awesome! Shows the power of an interdisciplinary team. Our old associate from vortex, Peter Gluck, has some good ideas along the lines of interdisciplinary teams. Here is his abstract from ICCF-12: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Developing Creative Thinking Methodologies for CMNS, aiming Complete Understanding and Technology Level Reproducibility Peter Gluck ASTRAL TELECOM, RO 400424, Dostoievski Street 28, Cluj-Napoca, Romania peter.gluck@astral.ro For the time given- autumn 2005, the condensed matter nuclear phenomena of potential technological interest, i.e. heat excess, can be characterized as a scientific miracle (despite the certainty of their existence) because they cannot be explained completely in the frame of the actual paradigm of physics, and as a technological embryo, due to lack of reproducibility. In plain words, CMNS is not well understood and cannot be controlled well technologically. A recent survey performed by Steven Krivit and this author, demonstrates this convincingly [1] There are some chances that both understanding and reproducibility will be solved by serendipity- that is, one of the known or unknown groups doing systematic experimentation will find by chance the key, the secrets of practical, usable heat generation, either for a wet system (electrolysis) or- even better, for a gas phase system. However, more than 16 years of such effort and many failures show that CMNS is a really difficult problem and for finding a solution we need actually a new level of thinking, new ideas and concepts, a creative paradigm. Some essential features of this thinking are: the acceptance of the extreme complexity of the phenomena, their multi-level -phase and -step dynamics including electronic and nuclear effects- all these leading to the impossibility to describe CMNS by a single theory. (This situation is similar to that of photosynthesis or of nitrogen fixation, that are also not completely understood and can not be reproduced and industrialized) An other essential part of the new paradigm is the use of the huge quantity of negative information accumulated in the field, by converting it to positive knowledge. Why something does not work is an information as valuable as knowing when it works and why. The author has applied the creative thinking methods as summarized in [2] and revealed in [3]. as well as his own original ones, in order to elaborate a new experimental strategy that will be discussed with the colleagues at ICCF-12. Besides the creation of active sites, their protection against destruction is an essential point of the new strategy. References [1] The 2005 Gluck-Krivit Cold Fusion Survey: http:// newenergytimes.com/news/NET11.htm#SURVEY [2] Creativity Techniques: http://www.mycoted.com/creativity/techniques/ [3] Anti-Knowledge Unlocking the power of question: http://www.anti- knowledge.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end quote Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 17:16:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k091G3dK016549; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:16:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k091FwZ5016488; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:15:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:15:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:15:45 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E2D159E25F07-23F4-7471@mblkn-m08.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.72 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Then you should request entry into the hydrinophile group and post it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/ S(c)eptics and crackpots not allowed! -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk This http://www.physorg.com/news9639.html could be used to create a conducting material with surface holes of 45.58 nm. This size should act as a resonant cavity for 27.2 eV, making the material a permanent Mills catalyst, potentially with a power output of kWs / cm^2. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 17:56:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k091tpSg005068; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:55:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k091toPP005034; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:55:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:55:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060109015536420.668DD3400085@mwinf3116.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060109015536.00a1a28c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 01:55:36 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:42 am 09/01/2006 +1100, Robin wrote: >Hi, > >This http://www.physorg.com/news9639.html could be used to create >a conducting material with surface holes of 45.58 nm. This size >should act as a resonant cavity for 27.2 eV, making the material a >permanent Mills catalyst, potentially with a power output of kWs / >cm^2. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Interesting article. Regarding the following excerpt.... ================================================== "The Columbia/IBM team has borrowed ideas from the natural world, in which the right conditions can stimulate the slow growth of highly uniform structures out of miniature building blocks." -------------------------------------------------- ....the sexiest recent example of finding the right conditions to grow things is the Russian discovery how to manufacture gem quality diamonds by crystallizing them under pressure in molten iron. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html In effect one is providing, "the right conditions [to] stimulate the slow growth of highly uniform structures out of miniature building blocks" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - of carbon atoms. By crystallizing the atoms out it molten iron one is effectively lowering the denominator pressure and so that one doesn't have to provide so much numerator pressure. You could say that the previous method of diamond manufacture was the "Hot Fusion" approach, whereas the Russian method is the "Cold Fusion" approach - or will be when people get around to recognising the fact. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer ================================================================== "Come hither, hither, pretty Fly, with the pearl and silver wing; Your robes are green and purple -- there's a crest upon your head; Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead!" ================================================================== From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 18:16:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k092FwNT017840; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:16:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k092FutR017809; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:15:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:15:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060109021547636.9B55B1C00082@mwinf3104.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 02:15:47 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Resent-Message-ID: <4iBC3.A.MWE.bdcwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:15 pm 08/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: > Then you should request entry into the hydrinophile group and post it: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/ > > S(c)eptics and crackpots not allowed! I would have thought that restriction severely reduces the gene pool of candidates for admission. I'm just wondering how the moderators might classify me. 8-( But then as Groucho said .......... Cheers, Frank the Crank. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 18:41:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k092fMsf031164; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:41:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k092fKtF031135; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:41:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:41:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:41:05 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E2DD457C8DF4-C70-14AF5@mblkn-m02.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.66 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <9Jt7t.A.bmH.P1cwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "I'd never join a club who would have me as a member." Class but no existing classification, Mr. Grimer. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer I'm just wondering how the moderators might classify me. 8-( But then as Groucho said .......... Cheers, Frank the Crank. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 18:49:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k092mxN1002272; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:49:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k092muEa002234; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:48:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C1CF06.9080109@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:48:38 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with e-bosons? References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <004101c6148d$b05c6fb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6E6AE03C-50DC-4573-8064-3FA1225C7FB4@mtaonline.net> <006201c61498$41491190$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007101c614a1$f8348700$6401a8c0@NuDell> <013D7AB0-9B8D-4EB4-9FE0-97A82FB6DB5E@mtaonline.net> <008401c614ab$55620c50$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 8, 2006, at 2:29 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > >> Horace >> >>>> What happens to the angular momentum? This seems to deny >>>> conservation of angular momentum. >> >> >>> No problem there. 1 - 1 = 0 All balances before and after pair >>> formation. >> >> >> That doesn't look like a proper cross product, or else I don't >> understand the full situation. > > > Conservation of angular momentum is conservation of the vector *sum* of > the constituants of a system. > >> You have studied this more than me, obviously, but I was under the >> impression that as a psuedovector there would be no such additive >> cancellation. However, being mildly dyslexic I often get these kinds >> of spin things confused, so please correct this line of reasoning. >> Angular momentum is a pseudovector. Often, the distinction between >> vectors and pseudovectors is overlooked, but it only becomes >> important in understanding the effect of symmetry on the solution to >> physical system interactions. A pseudovector can also be described as a vector in which the "head" and "tail" have been chosen arbitrarily, because there isn't a natural "frontwards" or "backwards" for it. Thus in certain coordinate transformations it may misbehave. HOWEVER, once you have (arbitrarily) chosen a "frontward" and "backward" orientation, you can certainly find a second pseudovector whose value will "cancel" the first. Two electrons with flipped spins certainly have angular momenta which sum to zero, regardless of whether you've chosen the "right-hand" or "left-hand" orientation on which to base your angular momentum calculations. Just about anything which is related to the coordinate system by a "right hand rule" probably conceals a pseudo-vector; if 95% of the population were left-handed instead of right-handed the rule would most likely have been written the other way around. So, for instance, you might well ask which way the magnetic field around a conducting wire "points" -- clockwise or counter-clockwise? The choice is arbitrary, and the magnetic field is also a pseudovector. An "improper" rotation is one that mirrors one axis. After that, you're working in a left-hand coordinate system, and that's when you notice something's gone wrong with the right-hand-rule and all the pseudovectors which were obtained using it. Velocity has a "natural frontwards direction" to it, as does an electric field (er, at least, it does once you've arbitrarily chosen whether to designate a proton or an electron as "positive"). Neither of those is a pseudovector. Here's a thought. If we discover magnetic monopoles, will the magnetic field still be a pseudovector? Uh........ >> A pseudovector is a quantity that >> transforms like a vector under a proper rotation, but gains an >> additional sign flip under an improper rotation (a transformation >> that can be expressed as an inversion followed by a proper rotation >> which is what we have here with two electrons - an improper >> rotation). It follows that any improper rotation multiplies the cross >> product by -1 compared to a true vector. >> >> My take on the bottom line of this is that the angular momentum >> cancellation you seem to be basing this premise on cannot happen in >> normal physics. >> >> ...or did I get dyslexic again ? >> >> Jones > > > You are making the simple complex. Since before and after the proposed > superposition the electrons share the same axis, view the electron > angular momenta along a single axis. You don't need to think in vector > addition terms then, just simple addition. The moments before > superposition are +mu and -mu respectively. +mu - mu = 0 Net momentum > of the system is zero. Afterwards the angular momentum is still zero. > The net momentum of two counter-spinning gyros is zero. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 20:44:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k094idwM001434; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:44:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k094ibYI001400; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:44:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:44:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:44:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <8C7E2D159E25F07-23F4-7471@mblkn-m08.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7E2D159E25F07-23F4-7471@mblkn-m08.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 9 Jan 2006 04:44:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k094iXnV001274 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:15:45 -0500: Hi, [snip] I have previously sent this basic concept directly to Mills, though I never heard a word about it again. Perhaps now that the technology exists to create the material relatively cheaply, he will reconsider. >Then you should request entry into the hydrinophile group and post it: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/ > >S(c)eptics and crackpots not allowed! > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robin van Spaandonk > >This http://www.physorg.com/news9639.html could be used to create >a conducting material with surface holes of 45.58 nm. This size >should act as a resonant cavity for 27.2 eV, making the material a >permanent Mills catalyst, potentially with a power output of kWs / >cm^2. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 8 22:35:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k096ZLR6031636; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:35:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k096ZI0F031609; Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:35:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060109063500528.811A41C00082@mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060109063500.0097fd08@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 06:35:00 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The Powers that Be Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Having got to grips with the powers that be I now see that Jones was right to resist me over the water vs ice debate regarding the use of same as a fuel in I.C.E. engines. Even though water at 0 degrees contains less global volume than ice at 0 degrees, it contains less fine scale hierarchical strain. Water as water contains the maximum strain energy at 4 deg.C. But water -> ice is not only an expansion where the water is loosing energy (doing work), but there is also a phase change brought about by B-atm pressure. I was basing my thinking on the full stress- strain curve of concrete where there is no phase change as the concrete breaks up into smaller bits - well - not the kind of phase change from water to ice, anyway. So though internal energy is lost: WATER -> expanded WATER at 0 deg.C - energy is gained: expanded WATER -> samevolume ICE at 0 deg.C. How, you may ask? It is gained by internal distortion of the water molecule. Something like, say, the molecule being strained from its "free" shape to something more nearly approaching the internal angle of a hexagon - which is what? 120 deg. It doesn't quite reach 120 - unlike carbon in graphite, which is why the hexagon is a distorted "saddle" or "chair" shape. Presumably in isomers like ICE 9 the internal strain is even greater and so the density is correspondingly less. One can make a comparison with the isothermal and adiabatic states of a gas. The isothermal state PV = a constant = P(L^3) is at the lowest internal strain boundary state. The adiabatic state PV^(5/3) = a constant = P(L^5/L^3) is at a higher internal strain, viz. the heat strain of the atoms. We can view it this being two linear dimensions higher. And to use Beene's terminology, "the dimension doesn't show up in our universe," since, of course, our universe is at the level, the scale, of total volume, L^3. There is in fact a very small increase in total volume since the atoms are distorted by the increasing impact rate from a prolate spheroid to an even more prolate spheroid - but this increase is so small as to be immeasurable [though imaginable 8-) ] The internal volumes can muck around as much as they like. If internal volume changes don't alter our 3D total volume then they are not going to butter any parsnips - they are not going to give us any useful work output - they are not going to move the pistons in our I.C.E. engines. So, one can see that it is possible to have a gas in an adiabatic state which even though it has a higher volume than the same mass of gas in a isothermal state, it contains more energy. It contains this energy in two hidden dimensions - hidden because they are internal - hidden, because these internal lengths can increase without showing up on the outside - in our universe in other words. Geddit? 8-) In fact, if you think about it, we don't need to go through worm holes to find hidden dimensions and their alien inhabitants. We can find them right here on earth and have been doing so ever since that simple fabric merchant, Leeuwenhoek, sparked by a natural and insatiable curiosity first gazed at a drop of pond water under his "glass pearl" microscope and marvelled at the aliens he saw there. http://www.funsci.com/fun3_en/usph/usph.htm Now water has a PV^6 = PL^(18) which is fifteen "hidden" dimensions higher than PL^3. Of course there is a lot of hidden Pee as well. But if one exposes the existence of the Beta-atmosphere to the public gaze then this Big Pee is no longer hidden and is seen in all its glory. For the pee we apply is only a little pee. The Pee in PV^6 is Total Pee. i.e. ambient B-a Pee + applied pee. P = P(0) + p What is clearly demonstrated by the Bridgman's compressibility relations for fluids and the power relations for ice/water/steam vapour pressure is that in using power curves it is vital to start from the right origin of the species. The Kelvin origin is fine used for its original purpose, ideal gas relationships, but when it is applied to relations, such as the aforementioned, the result is complete... what is that word I am looking for.... ah, yes, complete bollocks. 8-) In effect, the adiabatic equation of state for the ideal gas is just one of a whole host of such equations which one can easily discover once one has jettisoned Kelvin's straight jacket and Albert's denial of the devil's existence. For the benefit of Vortexian atheists, who are doubtless legion, ;-) I should explain that Lucifer is a Latin word made up of, lux (light; genitive lucis) and ferre (to bear, to bring) and that in saying the aether doesn't exist one is implicitly saying that Satan doesn't exist - which, as anyone knows who has read the C.S.Lewis's Screwtape Letters, pleases the devil greatly. All civil and structural engineer are aware that strain energy, both positive and negative, can be stored at many different scales; which is another way of saying many different dimensions. The highest dimension I remember from my student days is d4x/dy4 for cantilever deflection which give a fourth power on integration. Th highest power I have ever encountered in my research career is 42 for the wetting and drying relations between [Volume of Solids/Total Volume] and pF for Weald Clay (Ditchling Common). Clearly, there is a whole host of these meta-adiabatic equations of state out there just waiting for someone to uncover them. All that's needed is for people to get off their butts and to recognise that different species have different origins. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 03:45:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09BjQGh026384; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 03:45:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09BjORF026353; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 03:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 03:45:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:46:08 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: thoughts about D2fusion technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; The discussion about the CEO job offer has gotten me thinking about the viability of the proposed technology. For a combination of reasons, I assume that various LENR technologies are real. First of all, there is the standard LENR's produced by a P F cell, then there is the Patapov Pump, the Pinatelli machine. The Patapov pump is being manufactured by the Russian Arms manufacturer, the webpage claims an output which exceeds the input by 20 %, I know this because I had a Russian immigrant translate it. I believe that this information is legitimate, despite the fact that Alexander Frolov provided me with the URL. Fiat-Allis had enough confidence in Dr. Piantelli's research to patent the results. Consequently, I find the subject of the potential commercialization of the D2fusion technology, which I believe to be LENR quite fascinating. To this end I have done the following calculations. Assume off peak electricity at 6 cents per K W hr. Use a 1 K W heater. Energized for one hour, it liberates 3.157 X 10 ^ 3 BTU's per hour, lets call this one heat equivalent. Utilizing one of the proposed D2fusion units, we would get 1.3 heat equivalents. So, instead of 6 cents worth of energy we get 8 cents per hour worth of heat, giving a savings of 2 cents of free heat per hour. If we assume a six month heating season, and that the heater will be operating half the time, that 6 X 30 X 12 = 2160 hours per year X 2 cents per hour in savings = $43.20 in savings. If we assume that there is a tiny portion of the market which would invest in a technology which required a 10 year payback, that would yield a retail, installed price of $432 per kilowatt of installed capacity. There is a small section of the market which would pay twice that amount, but I don't think that it will last long. It is assumed that most of the potential market already have electric heating systems, so the only installation that is required it to unpack the heaters remove the old heaters, and bolt the new ones in place. Consequently, I believe that sales and installation could be kept to say 20% of the installed price. I'm wondering if anyone has read a description of the D2fusion technology. Perhaps then it might be possible to ballpark a price for it. I began to think about the amount of energy in a mole of water. I decided that in 18 grams of water, there are about 4 X 10 ^ 20 deuterium atoms. if you were able to fuse 1 X 10 ^ 9 of them per second, it would yield about a K W of energy. There are 3.15 X 10 ^ 7 seconds in a year. So that number of atoms would take about 3.3 X 10 ^ 3 years to exhaust the supply. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 05:42:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09DgDxO020135; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:42:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Dg47J020006; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:42:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:42:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918711D@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT: global warming humour Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:42:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <__iI0C.A.e4E.rgmwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was October, and the Indians on a remote reservation asked their new Chief if the coming winter was going to be cold or mild. Since he was a Chief in a modern society, he had never been taught the old secrets. When he looked at the sky, he couldn't tell what the winter was going to be like. Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter was indeed going to be cold and that the members of the village should collect firewood to be prepared. But being a practical leader, after several days he got an idea. He went to the phone booth, called the National Weather Service and asked, "Is the coming winter going to be cold?" "It looks like this winter is going to be quite cold," the meteorologist at the weather service responded. So the Chief went back to his people and told them to collect even more firewood in order to be prepared. A week later he called the National Weather Service again. "Does it still look like it is going to be a very cold winter?" "Yes," the man at National weather Service again replied, "it's going to be a very cold winter." The Chief again went back to his people and ordered them to collect every scrap of firewood they could find. Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Are you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" "Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is going to be one of the coldest winters ever." "How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 05:54:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09DseKm026935; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:54:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09DscCE026911; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:54:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:54:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918711F@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT: humour, programmer or serial killer Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:54:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <6RBdHC.A.bkG.dsmwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 06:15:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09EEgPG005166; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:14:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09EEbKl005049; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:14:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:14:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9E971903-38A7-43C1-BA0B-D81481485FF3@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:12:28 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:46 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > Vortexians; > > The discussion about the CEO job offer has gotten me thinking about > the viability of the proposed technology. > > For a combination of reasons, I assume that various LENR > technologies are real. First of all, there is the standard LENR's > produced by a P F cell, then there is the Patapov Pump, the > Pinatelli machine. The Patapov pump is being manufactured by the > Russian Arms manufacturer, the webpage claims an output which > exceeds the input by 20 %, I know this because I had a Russian > immigrant translate it. I believe that this information is > legitimate, despite the fact that Alexander Frolov provided me with > the URL. Fiat-Allis had enough confidence in Dr. Piantelli's > research to patent the results. The 20%, even if actually free energy, is equivalent to a COP of 1.2. This is not economically competitive in that form. It is taking the most expensive form of power, electric, and converting it to low grade heat. From : "The term coefficient of performance or COP is used to describe the ratio of heat output to electrical power consumption. A typical heat pump has a COP of about four, whereas a typical electric heater has a COP of one, indicating units of heat exchange performance per units of electrical power input (resistive electric heat being 100% efficient whereas heat pump heating offering up to 400% efficiency)." For very cold places a COP of 4 is ambitious. But, ground source heat pumps do a good job. See: The way to make good use of a low COP free energy device, like say 2.0, where the extra output is truly free energy, is to close the loop. In that way all input power is removed and the COP goes to infinity. Even that does not guarantee economic success. Only achieving competitive full life cycle costs can do that. A high maintenance cost or high capital cost and short life cycle can still prevent profits. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 06:27:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09ERWcO014358; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:27:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09ERU8p014338; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:27:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:27:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:27:14 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Vortexians; > > The discussion about the CEO job offer has gotten me thinking about the > viability of the proposed technology. > > For a combination of reasons, I assume that various LENR technologies > are real. First of all, there is the standard LENR's produced by a P F > cell, then there is the Patapov Pump, the Pinatelli machine. The Patapov > pump is being manufactured by the Russian Arms manufacturer, the webpage > claims an output which exceeds the input by 20 %, I know this because I > had a Russian immigrant translate it. I believe that this information is > legitimate, despite the fact that Alexander Frolov provided me with the > URL. Fiat-Allis had enough confidence in Dr. Piantelli's research to > patent the results. > > Consequently, I find the subject of the potential commercialization of > the D2fusion technology, which I believe to be LENR quite fascinating. > To this end I have done the following calculations. Assume off peak > electricity at 6 cents per K W hr. Use a 1 K W heater. Energized for one > hour, it liberates 3.157 X 10 ^ 3 BTU's per hour, lets call this one > heat equivalent. Utilizing one of the proposed D2fusion units, we would > get 1.3 heat equivalents. So, instead of 6 cents worth of energy we get > 8 cents per hour worth of heat, giving a savings of 2 cents of free heat > per hour. If we assume a six month heating season, and that the heater > will be operating half the time, that 6 X 30 X 12 = 2160 hours per year > X 2 cents per hour in savings = $43.20 in savings. If we assume that > there is a tiny portion of the market which would invest in a technology > which required a 10 year payback, that would yield a retail, installed > price of $432 per kilowatt of installed capacity. There is a small > section of the market which would pay twice that amount, but I don't > think that it will last long. It is assumed that most of the potential > market already have electric heating systems, so the only installation > that is required it to unpack the heaters remove the old heaters, and > bolt the new ones in place. Consequently, I believe that sales and > installation could be kept to say 20% of the installed price. > > I'm wondering if anyone has read a description of the D2fusion > technology. Perhaps then it might be possible to ballpark a price for it. As far as I can tell there is, as yet, no D2fusion "technology". There is hype, there are high hopes, there is a web site, there are descriptions of the evidence that the CF effect is real, but there's no hint that they've got a real, useful device in prototype or even on the drawing boards. Based on the (thin) evidence available, it's not apparent that the folks at D2fusion have any more idea than anyone else at this time how to commercialize cold fusion. > > I began to think about the amount of energy in a mole of water. I > decided that in 18 grams of water, there are about 4 X 10 ^ 20 deuterium > atoms. if you were able to fuse 1 X 10 ^ 9 of them per second, it would > yield about a K W of energy. There are 3.15 X 10 ^ 7 seconds in a year. > So that number of atoms would take about 3.3 X 10 ^ 3 years to exhaust > the supply. > > > > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 06:39:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09Eda5S022967; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:39:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09EdYNL022938; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:39:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:39:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5E9180A2-9D33-4A75-95C0-2338CCDF36EE@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:37:31 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looks like the money is all about Russ George, a one time vortex-l contributor. Looks like he doesn't get paid his $2M purchase price unless the company performs in a couple years. See the 8-K: Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 06:58:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09EwRWZ000896; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09EwPK1000861; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C27A07.3090306@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:58:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <9E971903-38A7-43C1-BA0B-D81481485FF3@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <9E971903-38A7-43C1-BA0B-D81481485FF3@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <43RA3B.A.YN.QonwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:46 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > >> Vortexians; >> >> The discussion about the CEO job offer has gotten me thinking about >> the viability of the proposed technology. >> >> For a combination of reasons, I assume that various LENR technologies >> are real. First of all, there is the standard LENR's produced by a P >> F cell, then there is the Patapov Pump, the Pinatelli machine. The >> Patapov pump is being manufactured by the Russian Arms manufacturer, >> the webpage claims an output which exceeds the input by 20 %, I know >> this because I had a Russian immigrant translate it. I believe that >> this information is legitimate, despite the fact that Alexander >> Frolov provided me with the URL. Fiat-Allis had enough confidence in >> Dr. Piantelli's research to patent the results. > > > The 20%, even if actually free energy, is equivalent to a COP of 1.2. > This is not economically competitive in that form. It is taking the > most expensive form of power, electric, and converting it to low grade > heat. > > From : > > "The term coefficient of performance or COP is used to describe the > ratio of heat output to electrical power consumption. A typical heat > pump has a COP of about four, whereas a typical electric heater has a > COP of one, indicating units of heat exchange performance per units of > electrical power input (resistive electric heat being 100% efficient > whereas heat pump heating offering up to 400% efficiency)." > > For very cold places a COP of 4 is ambitious. But, ground source heat > pumps do a good job. See: > > eep_groundsource_heatpumps.cfm#whatis> > > The way to make good use of a low COP free energy device, like say 2.0, > where the extra output is truly free energy, is to close the loop. To close the loop, you first must get to thermodynamic break-even: you must get out at least as much "Gibbs free energy" as you put in. Otherwise it's impossible. Determining the operating point which represents "breakeven" involves assuming there's a heat engine present to convert the output back into electricity, which means "breakeven" depends on how hot the cell is and how warm the environment is. For an air-cooled device operating in a reasonably normal room-temperature environment, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the "breakeven" over-unity value depends on the cell temperature more or less as follows (I just love quoting myself): Breakeven T_high, assuming T_high, if T_high/T_low Excess T_low = 293K = 20C T_low = 273K = 0C ------------ --------- ------------------ ------------- 1 Infinity 293K (20C) 273K (0C) 1.1 10 322K (49C) 300K (27C) 1.2 5 352K (79C) 328K (55C) 1.3 3.3 381K (108C) 355K (82C) 1.4 2.5 410K (133C) 382K (109C) 1.5 2 440K (167C) 410K (137C) For a cell operating at roughly 150 degrees C, breakeven is in the ballpark of 200% excess heat. For cooler cells, breakeven is even higher. For the current generation of cells that sounds like a rather "high bar" to get over. (Outdoors, in Alaska, in the winter, breakeven would be a lot easier to attain!) In the real world, heat engines are not perfect. In order to close the loop, one would therefore need a significantly higher excess than 200%. But then again, in the real world, a wet CF cell would probably use a fuel cell to turn the energy of recombination into electricity rather than letting it fall back uselessly to heat via a passive recombining catalyst, which would push the actual "excess heat" value up quite a bit, which would help. One needs more assumptions and a better idea of the final cell design to go much farther with this, and as Ed Storms already pointed out, there are other problems with with wet cells that make them seem likely to remain forever impractical as an energy source. > In > that way all input power is removed and the COP goes to infinity. Even > that does not guarantee economic success. Only achieving competitive > full life cycle costs can do that. A high maintenance cost or high > capital cost and short life cycle can still prevent profits. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 06:59:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09Ewgde001010; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09EwZKA000959; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:56:30 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <5vHwgD.A.zO.aonwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Correction: Looks like the money is all about Russ George, a one time vortex-l contributor. Looks like he doesn't get paid his $2M purchase price unless the company performs in *5* years. See the 8-K: Does that make sense, or am I reading that wrong? If Solar Energy Limited goes belly up, then the 5 year debenture is worthless? Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 07:36:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09FZYss029403; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:35:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09FZWrA029384; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:35:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 10:35:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Correction: > > Looks like the money is all about Russ George, a one time vortex-l > contributor. Looks like he doesn't get paid his $2M purchase price > unless the company performs in *5* years. See the 8-K: > > > > Does that make sense, or am I reading that wrong? If Solar Energy > Limited goes belly up, then the 5 year debenture is worthless? First of all, nasty unpleasant deals are the norm when dealing with VCs and buyouts. But even given that, no, I don't think you read it quite right. What I see is this: a) He gets a 5 year CV debenture, worth 2 million dollars. That's basically a 5-year bond (with some strings on it, discussed below in point (c)). Nominally, it pays 5% interest, and it matures in 5 years, which means George gets $100,000 per year in interest, and gets a balloon payment of 2 million dollars after 5 years. b) The bond is convertible, which means that at any time, George can convert it to SEL stock at 10% below the market value. Assuming SEL is publicly traded (are they?) that means he can take his $2M bond, convert it, and sell the stock for $2.2M at any time during the next 5 years, if he is so moved. That sounds odd to me but I'm not up on the fine points of convertible debentures so there may be something more going on here (but see below). (It may also be that the "below market" term actually means "below the market value of the stock on date 8/18/05" and they neglected to mention that in the 8K. That would seem to make more sense to me but again I'm a bit fuzzy on CV debentures.) c) Finally, there are Some Strings Attached, which I understand to be as follows. First, D2fusion must arrange "access to the public capital markets" within six months. I'd need a lawyer to know what that means, but it sounds like they must go public in 6 months?? That's tough if they haven't got a product yet! But maybe it means something less stringent. Second, he must raise an additional $2.2 million in financing, from whatever source he chooses, within 1 year of the agreement, or the deal's off. In other words, if he can't find another investor willing to match SEL's investment by the fall of 2006, they're going to pull out. That is a Big Condition! Third, that $100,000 per annum in interest is payable _ONLY_ in the event that D2Fusion happens to be making a profit. Since they have no product, that seems very unlikely, so I think the likely payout of the debenture is actually 0%, not 5%. Fourth, he's been paid in scrip (a debenture, not dollars) so if SEL goes poof so does the payment. (That's standard practice for someone they want to keep on board!) BUT here's where the convertibility comes in: _If_ he gets his extra financing, and gets "access to the capital markets", so the deal actually goes through, _then_ he can apparently bail out at any time by converting the debenture, selling the stock, and pocketing the $2.2M (minus taxes, which come due on conversion). There may, however, be an extra requirement that wasn't mentioned, such as a "vestment period", to prevent him from converting too soon. 5% isn't much of an incentive to keep one holding onto a junk-quality bond rather than selling it and investing in something else. Finally, the debenture agreement itself probably ran many pages, and all we've got here is a couple sentences summarizing it. There may be significant details left out of this version. Summary: Unless George stays on board and produces something convincing enough to pull in lots more money within 12 months, SEL will pick up their marbles and go home. Welcome to the Wonderful World of VCs and Buyouts. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 07:48:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09FmQ5V005757; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:48:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09FmJ9i005644; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:48:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c61534$0fe44a60$ae037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918711D@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: global warming humour Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:47:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1FMrM.A.4XB.BXowDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Remi, Depends on the tribe. A few tribes in Africa lacked the canny skills of our aborigines and wound up digging gold to pave the streets of the Swiss. The Mescalero Apaches near Ruidoso New Mexico have 'No Problemo". They own Sierra Blanco mountain, the timber, the ski lodge and the whole nine yards including the allotments from uncle sugar. If they need fuel, they call up El Paso natural gas and have it piped. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: OT: global warming humour > It was October, and the Indians on a remote reservation asked their new > Chief if the coming winter was going to be cold or mild. Since he was a > Chief in a modern society, he had never been taught the old secrets. When > he > looked at the sky, he couldn't tell what the winter was going to be like. > Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter > was > indeed going to be cold and that the members of the village should collect > firewood to be prepared. > > But being a practical leader, after several days he got an idea. He went > to > the phone booth, called the National Weather Service and asked, "Is the > coming winter going to be cold?" > > "It looks like this winter is going to be quite cold," the meteorologist > at > the weather service responded. So the Chief went back to his people and > told > them to collect even more firewood in order to be prepared. > > A week later he called the National Weather Service again. "Does it still > look like it is going to be a very cold winter?" > > "Yes," the man at National weather Service again replied, "it's going to > be > a very cold winter." The Chief again went back to his people and ordered > them to collect every scrap of firewood they could find. > > Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Are > you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" > > "Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is > going > to be one of the coldest winters ever." > > "How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. > > The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy." > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 07:55:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09FsVmZ009497; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:54:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09FsRHr009450; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:54:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:54:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187144@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: global warming humour Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:54:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <3G1L-B.A.aTC.ycowDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As they say, irony is lost on Americans. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of RC Macaulay Sent: 09 January 2006 15:48 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: global warming humour Hi Remi, Depends on the tribe. A few tribes in Africa lacked the canny skills of our aborigines and wound up digging gold to pave the streets of the Swiss. The Mescalero Apaches near Ruidoso New Mexico have 'No Problemo". They own Sierra Blanco mountain, the timber, the ski lodge and the whole nine yards including the allotments from uncle sugar. If they need fuel, they call up El Paso natural gas and have it piped. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: OT: global warming humour > It was October, and the Indians on a remote reservation asked their new > Chief if the coming winter was going to be cold or mild. Since he was a > Chief in a modern society, he had never been taught the old secrets. When > he > looked at the sky, he couldn't tell what the winter was going to be like. > Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter > was > indeed going to be cold and that the members of the village should collect > firewood to be prepared. > > But being a practical leader, after several days he got an idea. He went > to > the phone booth, called the National Weather Service and asked, "Is the > coming winter going to be cold?" > > "It looks like this winter is going to be quite cold," the meteorologist > at > the weather service responded. So the Chief went back to his people and > told > them to collect even more firewood in order to be prepared. > > A week later he called the National Weather Service again. "Does it still > look like it is going to be a very cold winter?" > > "Yes," the man at National weather Service again replied, "it's going to > be > a very cold winter." The Chief again went back to his people and ordered > them to collect every scrap of firewood they could find. > > Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Are > you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" > > "Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is > going > to be one of the coldest winters ever." > > "How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. > > The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy." > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 08:11:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09GADVL024151; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:10:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09GA5RU023916; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:10:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060109154212745.B5ECC1C00088@mwinf3006.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060109154213.00a0d824@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:42:13 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: global warming humour Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k09G9qvV023474 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:42 pm 09/01/2006 -0000, Reme wrote: ... >Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Are >you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" > >"Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is going >to be one of the coldest winters ever." > >"How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. > >The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy." He He! I really did "laugh out loud" at the dénouement of that one. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 08:18:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09GICvW032722; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:18:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09GI98c032676; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:18:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:18:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c61538$3a3547c0$ae037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187144@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: global warming humour Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:17:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Remi, Perhaps misplaced, never lost . Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:54 AM Subject: RE: global warming humour > As they say, irony is lost on Americans. > > -----Original Message----- > From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On > Behalf Of RC Macaulay > Sent: 09 January 2006 15:48 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: global warming humour > > Hi Remi, > Depends on the tribe. A few tribes in Africa lacked the canny skills of > our > aborigines and wound up digging gold to pave the streets of the Swiss. > The Mescalero Apaches near Ruidoso New Mexico have 'No Problemo". They own > Sierra Blanco mountain, the timber, the ski lodge and the whole nine yards > including the allotments from uncle sugar. If they need fuel, they call up > El Paso natural gas and have it piped. > > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:42 AM > Subject: OT: global warming humour > > >> It was October, and the Indians on a remote reservation asked their new >> Chief if the coming winter was going to be cold or mild. Since he was a >> Chief in a modern society, he had never been taught the old secrets. When >> he >> looked at the sky, he couldn't tell what the winter was going to be like. >> Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter >> was >> indeed going to be cold and that the members of the village should >> collect >> firewood to be prepared. >> >> But being a practical leader, after several days he got an idea. He went >> to >> the phone booth, called the National Weather Service and asked, "Is the >> coming winter going to be cold?" >> >> "It looks like this winter is going to be quite cold," the meteorologist >> at >> the weather service responded. So the Chief went back to his people and >> told >> them to collect even more firewood in order to be prepared. >> >> A week later he called the National Weather Service again. "Does it still >> look like it is going to be a very cold winter?" >> >> "Yes," the man at National weather Service again replied, "it's going to >> be >> a very cold winter." The Chief again went back to his people and ordered >> them to collect every scrap of firewood they could find. >> >> Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Are >> you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" >> >> "Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is >> going >> to be one of the coldest winters ever." >> >> "How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. >> >> The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy." >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 08:43:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09GgS2b025104; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09GfuBd024742; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:41:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:41:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C29241.20404@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:41:37 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Correction: >> >> Looks like the money is all about Russ George, a one time vortex-l >> contributor. Looks like he doesn't get paid his $2M purchase price >> unless the company performs in *5* years. See the 8-K: >> >> >> >> Does that make sense, or am I reading that wrong? If Solar Energy >> Limited goes belly up, then the 5 year debenture is worthless? > > > First of all, nasty unpleasant deals are the norm when dealing with VCs > and buyouts. But even given that, no, I don't think you read it quite > right. > > What I see is this: > > a) He gets a 5 year CV debenture, worth 2 million dollars. That's > basically a 5-year bond (with some strings on it, discussed below in > point (c)). Nominally, it pays 5% interest, and it matures in 5 years, > which means George gets $100,000 per year in interest, and gets a > balloon payment of 2 million dollars after 5 years. > > b) The bond is convertible, which means that at any time, George can > convert it to SEL stock at 10% below the market value. OOPS I overlooked something! It's convertible at 90% of market value "not to exceed $1" That puts a VERY different face on it! NOW the deal makes sense. If George can get the additional outside financing in order to satisfy the terms of the deal, then he becomes a stockholder in SEL to the tune of _at_ _least_ 2 million shares of their stock. Since their stock is probably currently worth less than $1 per share that gives him the upside potential needed to induce him to stay on and try to produce a product. The 5 year term of the bond gives him an incentive to get something out the door in 5 years, but the penalty if things just limp along for the next 5 years is that he _only_ gets $2.2M out of it, rather than the $22M he might expect if SEL's stock goes up to $10/share. > Assuming SEL is > publicly traded (are they?) that means he can take his $2M bond, convert > it, and sell the stock for $2.2M at any time during the next 5 years, if > he is so moved. That sounds odd to me but I'm not up on the fine points > of convertible debentures so there may be something more going on here > (but see below). (It may also be that the "below market" term actually > means "below the market value of the stock on date 8/18/05" and they > neglected to mention that in the 8K. That would seem to make more sense > to me but again I'm a bit fuzzy on CV debentures.) > > c) Finally, there are Some Strings Attached, which I understand to be as > follows. > > First, D2fusion must arrange "access to the public capital markets" > within six months. I'd need a lawyer to know what that means, but it > sounds like they must go public in 6 months?? That's tough if they > haven't got a product yet! But maybe it means something less stringent. > > Second, he must raise an additional $2.2 million in financing, from > whatever source he chooses, within 1 year of the agreement, or the > deal's off. In other words, if he can't find another investor willing > to match SEL's investment by the fall of 2006, they're going to pull > out. That is a Big Condition! > > Third, that $100,000 per annum in interest is payable _ONLY_ in the > event that D2Fusion happens to be making a profit. Since they have no > product, that seems very unlikely, so I think the likely payout of the > debenture is actually 0%, not 5%. > > Fourth, he's been paid in scrip (a debenture, not dollars) so if SEL > goes poof so does the payment. (That's standard practice for someone > they want to keep on board!) BUT here's where the convertibility comes > in: _If_ he gets his extra financing, and gets "access to the capital > markets", so the deal actually goes through, _then_ he can apparently > bail out at any time by converting the debenture, selling the stock, and > pocketing the $2.2M (minus taxes, which come due on conversion). There > may, however, be an extra requirement that wasn't mentioned, such as a > "vestment period", to prevent him from converting too soon. 5% isn't > much of an incentive to keep one holding onto a junk-quality bond rather > than selling it and investing in something else. > > Finally, the debenture agreement itself probably ran many pages, and all > we've got here is a couple sentences summarizing it. There may be > significant details left out of this version. > > > Summary: Unless George stays on board and produces something convincing > enough to pull in lots more money within 12 months, SEL will pick up > their marbles and go home. > > Welcome to the Wonderful World of VCs and Buyouts. > > >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 08:51:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09GoaqZ032303; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:50:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09GoTie032242; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:50:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:50:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bLonz5Zs2FqB8LiPpukfZEDbg4QFL4iaY+7z+ofIZmcA4QifQxcKWy3tq2IdLzOlerrl9x+iDG3t036cQnEEGCYdIs9PjOiauFaW8Viiryr4PduSQSKZUGLlZpVDAx8H/x7ebwul8et0c8ystVv4WxZT525CwxoiCeD3h0lkUjQ= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:45:06 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: global warming humour In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060109154213.00a0d824@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22325_22718712.1136825106985" References: <2.2.32.20060109154213.00a0d824@pop.freeserve.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_22325_22718712.1136825106985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ha. i love that old joke. was first told to me by an apache that was simply called grandfather by everyone, even MY grandfather, about 10-15 years back. he loved the reaction of people that would laugh, start to sto= p thinking it might be offensive, then break up again. On 1/9/06, Grimer wrote: > > At 01:42 pm 09/01/2006 -0000, Reme wrote: > > > > ... > >Two weeks later the Chief called the National Weather Service again. "Ar= e > >you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?" > > > >"Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking more and more like it is > going > >to be one of the coldest winters ever." > > > >"How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked. > > > >The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy.= " > > > He He! > > I really did "laugh out loud" at the d=E9nouement of that one. 8-) > > Frank > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_22325_22718712.1136825106985 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ha.  i love that old joke.  was first told to me by an apache tha= t was simply called grandfather by everyone, even MY grandfather, about 10-= 15 years back.  he loved the reaction of people that would laugh, star= t to stop thinking it might be offensive, then break up again.=20

On 1/9/06, G= rimer <f.grimer@= grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
At 01:42 pm 09/01/2006 -0000, Re= me wrote:

<snip>

...
>Two weeks later the Chief c= alled the National Weather Service again. "Are
>you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?"=
>
>"Absolutely," the man replied. "It's looking= more and more like it is going
>to be one of the coldest winters eve= r."
>
>"How can you be so sure?" the Chief asked.
>= ;
>The weatherman replied, "The Indians are collecting firewood = like crazy."


He He!

I really did "laugh out lou= d" at the d=E9nouement of that one.  8-)

Frank






-= -
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my= life to make it possible for you to continue to write"  Vol= taire=20 ------=_Part_22325_22718712.1136825106985-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 09:09:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09H8GT8020165; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:08:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09H8Bgc020115; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:08:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:08:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c6153f$3d3711e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:07:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is one further far-out thought on the possible range of the D2 technology, which if accurate, they may not want to talk about. Yes, this suggestion is more likely to be the product of an active imagination, as there is zero evidence in the public record to support it, other than it being within the realm of possibility - but, look at the backgrounds of some of these scientists involved, and we cannot rule this (below) out. Furthermore, a 'clue' to their target market may be found in featuring on their site the closure of the famous Ontario heavy water plant (Bruce). This particular site is potentially both a valuable asset, in the right hands - OR - a costly liability to Canada, due to the spent fuel of the four old reactors there. IOW here is a free billion dollar asset, and they will PAY YOU to take it, if you can clean it up. We all realize that sonofusion of deuterated liquids and colloids (dispersed metals in the range of a few nanometers, loaded with deuterium) is 'waiting in the wings' of commercialization - but with relatively low COP - as of now - maybe non-existent potential for heat or for massive overunity - PLUS it produces neutrons. Even if proven nulcear reactions in the range of a few thousand per second are seen in sonofusion, there is that nagging problem of nuclear activation. So what do you do with it? Simple, every hear of 'carrying coal to Newcastle' ? If you ignore poitical issues for a moment and ask - what is out there in the range of the *possible*, to make sonofusion of interest to other govenrments (and/or to NASA or DARPA) - and that is where the money is... then there IS a ready answer ... only we are conditioned to see it from a US perspective, instead of an international perspective, where 'terrorism' restrictions are in vogue. Canada is less stringent than here, but other countries have almost zero restrictions on hydrogen istopes, especially the "T" word. Perhaps these fellows have an international perspective and are pursuing this from the angle of getting big R&D bucks from some foreign government's space or military budget ? Or better yet, a way to both power a heavy water plant which is facing decomissioning (all reactors are now shut down, being 30 years old and not efficently designed compared to the newer CANDU)... or to clean up spent fuel. Perhaps, then... D2 fusion has have developed a sonofusion variety which can use the spent fuel left at the Bruce site. And maybe if they aren't thinking along these lines, someone else should ;-) There is well-known nuclear technology of which I speak, which could easily raise this sonofusion reaction-rate by many orders of magnitude, and it simply inovlves adding tritiated water to the heavy water. And then adding a colloid which is fissionable is the 'gravy'. We often fail to realize HOW reactive tritum is with deuterium. There is a world of difference. And if nothing else, the billions spent in the US on hot fusion have made the process for breeding tritum 'in situ' well known to anyone who can afford a subsrciption to Fusion Technology. Here we have the luxury of expanding the definition of 'fissionable' beyond the normal assumption of 'fissionable by thermal neutrons' since many high z nuclei succumb to either fission or spallation from the incredible power of a 14 MeV neutron - thorium being a likely candidate, or perhpas another candidate is the 'real' secret of D2fusion - spent fuel. The immediate response of any observer is to poo-poo this use of sonofusion on the grounds that the device then becomes 'dirty' in the sense of everything gets activated... but... hello... with plain old vanilla D2 sonofusion the 'knock' on that tech is that it too is NOT the clean technology of LENR... as anytime there are neutrons everything gets activated. Therefore we are talking about a matter of degree and finding a market niche. This two million dollars being bantered about is chump change for the cleanup of a nulcear site - $200 million would be more in the ballpark. Just a wild thought on a cold morning in which I personally would not mind having a small and very dirty little sonofusion reactor churning away in a removeable concrete crypt under the garage producing massive heat for mils/kwh.... if that is... it was very well engineered (and removeable). After all, there is a thousand times more natural radioactivity in the tons of shale under this property, going down half a kilometer, then anyone could ever possibly add with a small reactor. With nuclear, it's not about the process - it's about engineering the process correctly. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 09:12:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09HC3uA024367; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:12:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09HC0AQ024303; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:12:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:12:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:06:48 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E35636457736-118C-A9AB@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> <43C29241.20404@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43C29241.20404@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k09HBu4l024058 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SLRE, currently trading at 79 cents: http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=SLRE with a daily volume less than 100,000 shares. Has been as high as about $1.30 in the past year. It was at about $17 in '98. Solar power in the Pacific Northeast?!? What killed them? US failure to sign the Kyoto Accord? -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence If George can get the additional outside financing in order to satisfy the terms of the deal, then he becomes a stockholder in SEL to the tune of _at_ _least_ 2 million shares of their stock. Since their stock is probably currently worth less than $1 per share that gives him the upside potential needed to induce him to stay on and try to produce a product.  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 09:39:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09HcND7015814; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:38:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09HcKt0015750; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:38:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:38:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109114219.03600330@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109111719.035e0720@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:44:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Please protest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3568156==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <8WDK2C.A.y1D.L-pwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3568156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just uploaded a statement to the front page at LENR-CANR and to the news section: "The Washington Post attacks cold fusion, and ignores protests by researchers." I assume "several researchers" protested. If you have not already done so, please send a short message to opinions@washingtonpost.com. They will ignore it but anyway, I would like to be sure that what I just wrote at LENR-CANR.org is correct, at least ex post facto. I think a short message along these lines would be fine: Regarding: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" by Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles, January 8, 2006, p. B03. The statements about cold fusion in this article are inaccurate and unfair. Cold fusion was never "debunked." On the contrary, it was widely replicated after 1989, and many peer-reviewed journal papers describing these replications have been published. Say it your own way, of course. Perhaps we could send one message signed by many people? Probably not. It is worth the effort organizing a petition because they will ignore us for sure. - Jed --=====================_3568156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I just uploaded a statement to the front page at LENR-CANR and to the news section:

"The Washington Post attacks cold fusion, and ignores protests by researchers."

I assume "several researchers" protested. If you have not already done so, please send a short message to opinions@washingtonpost.com. They will ignore it but anyway, I would like to be sure that what I just wrote at LENR-CANR.org is correct, at least ex post facto. I think a short message along these lines would be fine:


Regarding: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" by Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles, January 8, 2006, p. B03.

The statements about cold fusion in this article are inaccurate and unfair. Cold fusion was never "debunked." On the contrary, it was widely replicated after 1989, and many peer-reviewed journal papers describing these replications have been published.


Say it your own way, of course.

Perhaps we could send one message signed by many people? Probably not. It is worth the effort organizing a petition because they will ignore us for sure.

- Jed
--=====================_3568156==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 09:50:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09HnjTn025289; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:49:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09HngFL025252; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:49:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:49:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187168@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT: more humour Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:49:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4589072.stm Just how many billion dollar terrorists are out there? I think they been watching Moonraker. Better get James Bond in orbit then. I would have thought it a statement of the bleeding obvious: er, principal of school, er, terrorists need not apply to this job. Er, brain surgeon, no terrorists please. Duh! ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 09:57:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09HvUpe031656; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:57:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09HvNlO031588; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:57:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:57:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918716B@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Rupert Sheldrake Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:57:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, You caught me p.ssing about and dossing today. Here's a semi serious one: They imply that there is a genetic mechanism other than sexual selection. This one is going on about smoking knocking off methyl groups on DNA and the effects persisting for generations. Sounds like Sheldrake's acquired characteristics to me - definitely non-Darwinian. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925334.000;jsessionid=NJMKLCBMNHFF I like the way the establishment kinda subsumes controversial stuff quietly without ever admitting it was wrong. Same old some old is the Americanism, I think. Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 10:17:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09IGgwa015800; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:16:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09IGWkp015685; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:16:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:16:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C2A86E.4030802@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:16:14 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rupert Sheldrake References: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918716B@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918716B@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1hQjdC.A.s0D.-hqwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk wrote: > OK, > You caught me p.ssing about and dossing today. Here's a semi serious one: > > They imply that there is a genetic mechanism other than sexual selection. > This one is going on about smoking knocking off methyl groups on DNA and the > effects persisting for generations. Sounds like Sheldrake's acquired > characteristics to me - definitely non-Darwinian. There are a number of non-Darwinian effects on the offspring, starting with variations in the intrauterine environment, which has a big impact, and which can end up carrying extra-genetic effects forward for a couple generations. The fact that such influences exist isn't new news, but new examples of that kind of thing are news. Methylation is an issue, too, but I generally had the impression that the methylation situation got "reset" during meiosis -- something like the situation with the telomeres, which are generally patched up for each new generation (except after cloning, of course). Certainly all forms of IVF and cloning tend to leave rather bolixed methylation in their wake; for IVF and ICSI there appear to be, at worst, only minor effects on the children (whom, one assumes, would not have been conceived without the intervention). The consequences in some animals appear to be more severe, with sheep, in particular, showing odd problems in a number of the lambs after some processes which mess with the methylation of the genome. I recall in particular a problem which might be called big-floppy-lambs syndrome but I disrecall the actual name just now. > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925334.000;jsessionid=NJMKLCBMNHFF > > I like the way the establishment kinda subsumes controversial stuff quietly > without ever admitting it was wrong. Same old some old is the Americanism, I > think. > Remi. > ....................................... > Website > http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 > ....................................... > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 10:54:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09Irxtp015826; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:54:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09IrqaT015739; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:53:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:53:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:53:35 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E36520CAFA2D-1988-9BD8@mblkn-m15.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187168@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187168@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OT: more humour Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.133 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1dXFOC.A.r1D.-ErwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tickets on Virgin Galactic are presently available for $200,000. -----Original Message----- From: R.O.Cornwall Just how many billion dollar terrorists are out there? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 11:05:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09J4bLs025704; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:04:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09J4anv025689; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:04:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:04:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:07:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology In-Reply-To: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >As far as I can tell there is, as yet, no D2fusion "technology". There is >hype, there are high hopes, there is a web site, there are descriptions of >the evidence that the CF effect is real, but there's no hint that they've >got a real, useful device in prototype or even on the drawing boards. > >Based on the (thin) evidence available, it's not apparent that the folks >at D2fusion have any more idea than anyone else at this time how to >commercialize cold fusion. From New Energy Times issue #14, Jan. 10: (tomorrow) Thomas Benson and Thomas Passell (associated with D2fusion Inc.) presented preliminary results in a poster and in a talk associated with using glow discharge devices. In the poster, a particular device modeled after the ones used by Energetics Technologies was presented. It involved cathodes made from various metals and a variety of nanoscale structures formed from the materials. In the talk, Passell described a new simplified glow discharge device, involving small (.69 watt) input power with slightly greater (.79 watt) output power, discharged in a low pressure (2-20 T) D2 gas. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 12:01:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09K0hTA004515; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:00:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09K0bnc004414; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:00:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:00:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:00:07 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1e0jR.A.nEB.iDswDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > >> >> As far as I can tell there is, as yet, no D2fusion "technology". I was not clear here. By "technology" I meant something that is potentially salable (to someone other than another researcher). Of course Russ George has "technology" as well as a great deal of knowledge -- I am not debating that -- but it's not the kind of technology you can package as a product, AFAIK. >> There is hype, there are high hopes, there is a web site, there are >> descriptions of the evidence that the CF effect is real, but there's >> no hint that they've got a real, useful device in prototype or even on >> the drawing boards. And this was the point. No product and no apparent plan for how to build one. Everyone needs to start somewhere, of course, but at this point I'm not convinced that the process of evoking CF is well enough understood for it to be sensible to start trying to commercialize it. >> Based on the (thin) evidence available, it's not apparent that the >> folks at D2fusion have any more idea than anyone else at this time how >> to commercialize cold fusion. > > > > From New Energy Times issue #14, Jan. 10: (tomorrow) > > > Thomas Benson and Thomas Passell (associated with D2fusion Inc.) > presented preliminary results in a poster and in a talk associated with > using glow discharge devices. In the poster, a particular device modeled > after the ones used by Energetics Technologies was presented. It > involved cathodes made from various metals and a variety of nanoscale > structures formed from the materials. > In the talk, Passell described a new simplified glow discharge device, > involving small (.69 watt) input power with slightly greater (.79 watt) > output power, discharged in a low pressure (2-20 T) D2 gas. It's an interesting result, but how would you recover useful energy from it? That's necessary to build a commercial device, and that's the point I had in mind. At 0.79/0.69 = 1.15, that's 15% over unity. I haven't seen the paper but I'm guessing that the energy comes out in the form of heat. Is that correct? If so, then in order to produce an over-unity device, which is necessary if it's to produce usable power, they need to operate it above the thermodynamic breakevent point. Given the excess heat as a fraction of 1, that implies a temperatore of just T(high)/T(low) = 1 + 1/Excess_heat (assuming I did the algebra right). At 15% excess heat, I make that ratio about 1.9, so if the ambient temp is about 300K, then T(high) must be about 300 Centigrade. It's feasible but it's probably a bit different from the rig they're currently using; the coolant's got to be heavily pressurized water or some other fluid (silicone oil, maybe), while I'd bet they're currently using low-pressure water for the coolant. But 300C is the level at which you can, in principle, "close the loop" with 15% excess heat, _if_ you can build a perfect heat engine. With a real-world heat engine it's harder, and to accomodate the losses in the real engine, you either need to pump up the cell temperature even more, or increase the excess heat to something a little healthier than 15%. And then we need to consider the power level. 100 mW of net output energy needs to be scaled up a few orders of magnitude before it's going to be interesting as a commercial device ... or even as something with which you can reasonably expect to "close the loop" given real-world losses and the difficulty of operating anything at all with less than a watt. And scaling _anything_ more than an order of magnitude nearly always involves major headaches which can't be foreseen; to be of commercial interest this probably needs to go up at least 3 orders of magnitude. CF, with its history of "negative economies of scale", is likely to be worse than most things in this area. This all is to say that while I certainly believe the effects are real, and I laud the work Russ George continues to do, I don't see a clear path from where the state of CF research is right now to a commercial device of any sort, and this (admittedly interesting) news doesn't change that. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:03:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09L3AU4019044; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:03:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09L2WtI018674; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:02:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:02:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pbhLrBE+rv7pO/pyTXOykRTAajzLXkFI0b6UAfMLdu/VlO5YBTksJI4WFVuPsM/M/JMNO1YV0Qe26tQsCIt7Qyvq5My5NvkzJlw7nGxurjSaD0camyZ8YVGDp6sW0UZlsttiqIaoVt3Dn42uEFJ1Ie6llm+owmM6ihq3k4nX4pc= ; Message-ID: <20060109210203.55314.qmail@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:02:03 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Heim Theory: A Real Warp Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43C09749.3010406@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, the whole 'warp' thing is a side effect of his original theory. During the 50's Heim began working on reconciling relativity and quantum mechanics. In order to do so he came up with an 8-dimensional universe, but later discarded 2 of the dimensions (Droescher reinstated those 2 dropped dimensions in an expansion of the theory). Not only does his theory and the equations coming from it predict a possible warp drive, but also the possibility of hyper-dimensional travel (FTL?) He never managed the funding to test the theory, but he did have a portion published which accurately predicts the masses of elementary particles based on their physical characteristics (which no one else has been able to do) They have the equations to back it, now if they can get their experiment to work, we might really have something. --- Wesley Bruce wrote: > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > I came across this while searching for six > dimensional theories: > > > > > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html > > > > excerpt: > > > > Claims of the possibility of "gravity reduction" > or "anti-gravity" > > induced by magnetic fields have been investigated > by NASA before (New > > Scientist, 12 January 2002, p 24). But this one, > Dröscher insists, is > > different. "Our theory is not about anti-gravity. > It's about > > completely new fields with new properties," he > says. And he and Häuser > > have suggested an experiment to prove it. > > > > This will require a huge rotating ring placed > above a superconducting > > coil to create an intense magnetic field. With a > large enough current > > in the coil, and a large enough magnetic field, > Dröscher claims the > > electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational > pull on the ring to > > the point where it floats free. Dröscher and > Häuser say that to > > completely counter Earth's pull on a 150-tonne > spacecraft a magnetic > > field of around 25 tesla would be needed. While > that's 500,000 times > > the strength of Earth's magnetic field, pulsed > magnets briefly reach > > field strengths up to 80 tesla. And Dröscher and > Häuser go further. > > With a faster-spinning ring and an even stronger > magnetic field, > > gravitophotons would interact with conventional > gravity to produce a > > repulsive anti-gravity force, they suggest. > > > > > > > > There's more here; but, this is harder to > understand than > > Beta-atmosphere: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your > Contact List > > http://mail.netscape.com > > > Nice one! This guys just reinvented John Searls seg. > The seg self cools > to extremely low temperature and has spinning > rollers on spinning rings. > If only we could convert Johns theory into equations > we would be on our > way. The field strengths are about right. Dröscher > and Häuser may have > done the equations that we need. Wont it be cool to > have a true space > drive finally. Wont it be even cooler to discover > that we had a > prototype in the 1960's! That will give the skeptics > a migraine. > I wonder how the equations fit with Dr Podkletnov's > work? > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:17:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09LGw6b029554; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:16:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09LGr1m029479; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:16:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:16:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43C29241.20404@pobox.com> References: <164AE313-A50C-4948-9DC4-639E28D26E32@mtaonline.net> <43C282BA.4010609@pobox.com> <43C29241.20404@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <17427517-3E36-4C4E-9029-F3A282FF6CC8@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:14:37 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 7:41 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > If George can get the additional outside financing in order to > satisfy the terms of the deal, then he becomes a stockholder in SEL > to the tune of _at_ _least_ 2 million shares of their stock. Since > their stock is probably currently worth less than $1 per share that > gives him the upside potential needed to induce him to stay on and > try to produce a product. > > The 5 year term of the bond gives him an incentive to get something > out the door in 5 years, but the penalty if things just limp along > for the next 5 years is that he _only_ gets $2.2M out of it, rather > than the $22M he might expect if SEL's stock goes up to $10/share. I think Solar Energy Limited has the obligation to secure the financing. They are the "Company", not Russ George. George gets his stock back if they fail to finance. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - On August 18, 2005, Solar Energy Limited ("Company") entered into and completed a Stock Purchase Agreement ("Agreement") with D2Fusion Inc. ("D2Fusion") and Russ George, the sole shareholder of D2Fusion ("Seller") in connection with the Company's acquisition of 100% of D2Fusion's issued and outstanding stock. Pursuant to the agreement, the Company acquired 100% of the common stock of D2Fusion for a purchase price of two million dollars ($2,000,000) in the form of a convertible debenture. The convertible debenture has a 5 year term, bears interest at 5% (payable in only in the event that D2Fusion realizes net income from operations) and is convertible into the Company's shares at 10% below market, not to exceed one dollar ($1.00), through the remaining term of the debenture. The agreement commits the Company to arrange financing of not less than $2,200,000 and, within six (6) months of the agreement, cause D2Fusion to have direct access to the public capital markets for the purpose of raising additional capital in excess of the Company's financing obligations. Should the Company fail to arrange the required financing within twelve months of the agreement, Russ George has the right to redeem the shares of D2Fusion in exchange for canceling any amounts due to him pursuant to the debenture and the Company has the right to redeem the debenture in exchange for returning the D2Fusion shares to Mr. George. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - My point earlier is if this doesn't work out in 5 years, then (a) George gets no interest and (b) Solar Energy Ltd, which has gone into the tank from prior golden years, may not be worth anything at all. In other words, if this doesn't fly they probably all go down with the ship together. OTOH, if it flies they all soar. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:24:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09LNhTj001988; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:23:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09LNcGM001893; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:23:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:23:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:20:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > If so, then in order to produce an over-unity device, which is > necessary if it's to produce usable power, they need to operate it > above the thermodynamic breakevent point. Given the excess heat as > a fraction of 1, that implies a temperatore of just > > T(high)/T(low) = 1 + 1/Excess_heat While this applies to the Potapov vortex thing discussed earlier, and which is not at all related, I suspect it does not apply to Russ George's work. Since Les Case is involved it is reasonable they are looking at commercializing the D2 + catalyst stuff, which has no power input at all. In fact, the web site talks about solid state, which pretty much confirms that some form of the D2 catalysis stuff will be used. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:28:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09LSRgn005520; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:28:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09LSP8V005498; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:28:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:28:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Rupert Sheldrake Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:28:04 -1000 Message-ID: <00d001c61563$962105d0$8d01a8c0@dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918716B@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <7TE6wB.A.xVB.5VtwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lots of that about. Try www.panspermia.com - R. -----Original Message----- From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Rupert Sheldrake OK, You caught me p.ssing about and dossing today. Here's a semi serious one: They imply that there is a genetic mechanism other than sexual selection. This one is going on about smoking knocking off methyl groups on DNA and the effects persisting for generations. Sounds like Sheldrake's acquired characteristics to me - definitely non-Darwinian. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925334.000;jsessionid=NJMKLCBMNH FF I like the way the establishment kinda subsumes controversial stuff quietly without ever admitting it was wrong. Same old some old is the Americanism, I think. Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:31:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09LUfp3007368; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:31:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Kb37T030919; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:37:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a301c6155c$5f784590$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060109063500.0097fd08@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: The Powers that Be Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:36:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, Nice post, and I am glad it is in the archive. However, trying to convince anyone that there is energy to be had from exploding ice is like knocking one's head against a wall. I have pretty much given up on the effort and await some financial windfall like winning the lottery so that I can buy (and sacrifice) a perfectly good diesel engine just to find out if it the idea is anything more than so much hot air... ... make that cold air. Jones BTW, the idea is to mount a carburetor on the diesel intake and set it very lean and use low octane gasoline. Convert the fuel injection system to use pressurized subfreezing water (it will be thereafter ruined, most likely), and set the injection advance forward - to prevent premature ignition of the fuel mix. The idea is that the water turns to ice first, then some of it (the outer layer of each ice crystal sublimates back to vapor (thereby lowering the effective compression ratio as the cycle progresses and preventing preignition) then on ignition at TDC the remainder ice "may" explode violently. This is all supposition, based on the flimsiest of evidence (there is some). However, the payoff is large. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:44:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09LiCT7015898; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:44:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09LiAGo015875; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:43:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> If so, then in order to produce an over-unity device, which is >> necessary if it's to produce usable power, they need to operate it >> above the thermodynamic breakevent point. Given the excess heat as a >> fraction of 1, that implies a temperatore of just >> >> T(high)/T(low) = 1 + 1/Excess_heat > > > While this applies to the Potapov vortex thing discussed earlier, and > which is not at all related, I suspect it does not apply to Russ > George's work. Since Les Case is involved it is reasonable they are > looking at commercializing the D2 + catalyst stuff, which has no power > input at all. In fact, the web site talks about solid state, which > pretty much confirms that some form of the D2 catalysis stuff will be > used. Cool! That seems like the right direction to go. I confess I didn't see that on the web site -- it looked like the "solid state" talk all just had to do with any kind of fusion taking place within a metal lattice, which would include all CF experiments I'm familiar with. Certainly it includes wet-cell electrolysis-based CF as well as gas-loaded finely-divided Pd experiments. In any case, I was, of course, reacting to Steve Krivit's post about the glow discharge device with my little thermo thing rather than commenting on Russ George's work in general. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 13:48:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09Lm0mZ018454; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:48:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09LlwJY018437; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:47:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:47:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:42:41 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E37CC06BE0B6-118C-B462@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: D2Fusion Test Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There might be some hints as to what the plans are at the 'position' page: http://d2fusion.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=26& Itemid=53 or http://tinyurl.com/d9dxg for an "Energy Science Technician". Also, there is an odd question request at the bottom: "Include in cover letter your brief essay answer to the following screening question: What challenges might one encounter in differentiating Deuterium D2 from Helium 4He using quadrapole mass spectroscopy? Include three web sites that are relevant to this topic. Preference may be given to applicants that send a picture. For instance a casual photo of you doing something you enjoy would be appreciated." Why don't they say, "Must have facial hair." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 14:08:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09M7iHU030961; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:07:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09M7ISa030737; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:07:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:07:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:05:05 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:43 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Cool! That seems like the right direction to go. I confess I > didn't see that on the web site -- it looked like the "solid state" > talk all just had to do with any kind of fusion taking place within > a metal lattice, which would include all CF experiments I'm > familiar with. Certainly it includes wet-cell electrolysis-based CF > as well as gas-loaded finely-divided Pd experiments. Oh, I forgot that the catalyst must be raised to a fairly high temperature, and then the temperature controlled so there is no run- away heat that destroys the catalyst. This does require some initial power input, and some control energy input, so the COP is not really infinite. I don't recall this technology actually proving out upon testing, but I don't know what happened since it was a big deal in sci.physics.fusion in 1999-2000 and on vortex July 2001. I know EarthTech's replication results were negative: . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 14:15:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09MEdl4003109; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:14:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09MEWgq003000; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:14:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:14:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060109221410785.BFD204800085@mwinf3107.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060109221411.009fff74@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:14:11 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Powers that Be Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:36 pm 09/01/2006 -0800, Jones wrote: > Frank, > > Nice post, and I am glad it is in the archive. > > However, trying to convince anyone that there is energy to be had > from exploding ice is like knocking one's head against a wall. I > have pretty much given up on the effort and await some financial > windfall like winning the lottery so that I can buy (and > sacrifice) a perfectly good diesel engine just to find out if it > the idea is anything more than so much hot air... > > ... make that cold air. > > Jones > > BTW, the idea is to mount a carburetor on the diesel intake and > set it very lean and use low octane gasoline. Convert the fuel > injection system to use pressurized subfreezing water (it will be > thereafter ruined, most likely), and set the injection advance > forward - to prevent premature ignition of the fuel mix. > > The idea is that the water turns to ice first, then some of it > (the outer layer of each ice crystal sublimates back to vapor > (thereby lowering the effective compression ratio as the cycle > progresses and preventing preignition) then on ignition at TDC the > remainder ice "may" explode violently. > > This is all supposition, based on the flimsiest of evidence (there > is some). However, the payoff is large. > > Jones > There is of course indirect evidence that the idea, or something like it. might work in the Graneau's "cold fog". Anyway, speculation costs nothing and keeps the gray matter warm. 8-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 14:29:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09MTOOn012289; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:29:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09MTLMZ012256; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:29:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:29:07 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E3833D3651AA-1DB8-BF18@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: D2Fusion Library Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <28vY5C.A.Z_C.BPuwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since: http://www.d2fusion.com/education/library.html all link back to lenr-canr.org, you'd think they would give some credit, eh? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 15:08:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09N810j002703; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:08:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09N7xtR002694; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:07:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:07:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180213.034205a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:07:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Uploaded Srinivasan review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12917062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12917062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: Srinivasan, M., Nuclear fusion in an atomic lattice: An update on the international status of cold fusion research. Curr. Sci., 1991. 60: p. 417, 39 pages. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Srinivasannuclearfus.pdf This was a lot of work to prepare. It has some interesting stuff about Fleischmann and Pons, molten salt electrolysis and various other topics. I just asked Srinivasan on to write a postscript looking back from 2006. It would be melancholy but interesting. - Jed --=====================_12917062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

Srinivasan, M., Nuclear fusion in an atomic lattice: An update on the international status of cold fusion research. Curr. Sci., 1991. 60: p. 417, 39 pages.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Srinivasannuclearfus.pdf

This was a lot of work to prepare. It has some interesting stuff about Fleischmann and Pons, molten salt electrolysis and various other topics.

I just asked Srinivasan on to write a postscript looking back from 2006. It would be melancholy but interesting.

- Jed
--=====================_12917062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 15:11:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09NAcpw004151; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:10:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09NANW6004018; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:10:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180852.0342bd40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:10:03 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: D2Fusion Library In-Reply-To: <8C7E3833D3651AA-1DB8-BF18@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E3833D3651AA-1DB8-BF18@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1BO1MC.A.j-.d1uwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >all link back to lenr-canr.org, you'd think they would give some credit, eh?\ Ha, ha. Alert users will figure out where the papers are. That is the beauty of the Internet. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 15:36:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09NZeVG020485; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:35:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09NZaHv020430; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:35:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:35:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:33:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I continue to update . The following update may have some interest to anyone interested in the resonances of water. ENHANCING THE DC EFFECT It may be possible to enhance the effects of the interphase by stiumulating the water at natural resonant frequencies of water. The natural vibrational frequencies of water are shown in Table 2. symmetrical antisymmetrical bend stretch stretch H2O 47.8 109.6 112.6 D2O 35.3 80.1 83.6 Table 2 - The vibrational frequencies of water molecule in THz. Also of interest is that H2O absorbs energy at 190, 200, 250, 300, and 400 nm wavelengths. Ed Storms' paper "Critical Review of the "Cold Fusion" Effect", March 1, 1996, page 42 mentions 82 MHz RF signals and high current micropulses (through the cathode) as being as heat enhancing stimuli. This frequency may only be lattice related, but if cold fusion is a surface effect then this frequency may also be related in some way to the effects of water molecules . Puharich in US Patent 4,394,230 (1983), recommends some surprisingly low frequencies to reduce the energy requirements of water electrolysis, namely a fundamental carrier frequency: 3980 Hz, with strong harmonics at 7960 Hz, 15,920 Hz, 31,840 Hz, and 63,690 Hz. In the interphase the bend and symmetrical stretch frequencies would be applied in a direction normal to the anode surface, and the antisymmetrical stretch would be applied parallel to the anode surface. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 15:43:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09NgSNG024136; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09NgBjh023932; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:42:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:42:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109114219.03600330@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109114219.03600330@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Please protest Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:40:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 7:44 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I just uploaded a statement to the front page at LENR-CANR and to > the news section: > > "The Washington Post attacks cold fusion, and ignores protests by > researchers." > > I assume "several researchers" protested. If you have not already > done so, please send a short message to > opinions@washingtonpost.com. They will ignore it but anyway, I > would like to be sure that what I just wrote at LENR-CANR.org is > correct, at least ex post facto. I think a short message along > these lines would be fine: > > > Regarding: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" by Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles, > January 8, 2006, p. B03. > > The statements about cold fusion in this article are inaccurate and > unfair. Cold fusion was never "debunked." On the contrary, it was > widely replicated after 1989, and many peer-reviewed journal papers > describing these replications have been published. > > > Say it your own way, of course. > > Perhaps we could send one message signed by many people? Probably > not. It is worth the effort organizing a petition because they will > ignore us for sure. > > - Jed What email address to use? There are a number of them . Are you suggesting letters to the editor for publishing? Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 15:47:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k09NlaJa027880; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:47:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k09Nl6YX027414; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:46:26 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:43 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> Cool! That seems like the right direction to go. I confess I didn't >> see that on the web site -- it looked like the "solid state" talk all >> just had to do with any kind of fusion taking place within a metal >> lattice, which would include all CF experiments I'm familiar with. >> Certainly it includes wet-cell electrolysis-based CF as well as >> gas-loaded finely-divided Pd experiments. > > > > Oh, I forgot that the catalyst must be raised to a fairly high > temperature, and then the temperature controlled so there is no run- > away heat that destroys the catalyst. This does require some initial > power input, and some control energy input, so the COP is not really > infinite. > > I don't recall this technology actually proving out upon testing, but I > don't know what happened since it was a big deal in sci.physics.fusion > in 1999-2000 and on vortex July 2001. I know EarthTech's replication > results were negative: . But EarthTech never succeeds in reproducing anything, and it always turns out they've done the experiment so differently from the original that there was no hope of its working ... right? Or do I have them mixed up with somebody? Maybe this time it was different.... > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 16:11:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A0BDfa010291; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:11:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A0B8XY010234; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:11:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:09:09 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > But EarthTech never succeeds in reproducing anything, and it always > turns out they've done the experiment so differently from the > original that there was no hope of its working ... right? Or do I > have them mixed up with somebody? > > Maybe this time it was different.... > > Well, it *is* true that Scott Little gained a reputation on vortex for a psychic ability to suppress cold fusion. You know, a negative telekinetic quantum observation thingy. 8^) OTOH, Scott's excellence in calorimetry may be the reason for all the negative results. If you listen to Dennis Cravens though, who has had stuff on Scott's bench, Scott has a psychological tendency to shut things down just when they are about ready to get cooking. I've had much help over the years from Scott Little, and trust his methods and integrity thoroughly. If I were to actually invest cash in a new energy thing (other than one of my crackpot ideas of course) I'd want to get his data on it. I wouldn't want to sell something the customer could unconsciously psychically block from functioning. Not for me to worry though. I'm out of experimenting money. My wife and I are retired, and I think she's had about enough of this crackpot experimenting stuff, and all my "ugly junk". 8^) And here I am procrastinating on getting ready for income taxes. In the dog house, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 16:33:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A0XMPm022283; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:33:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A0XLS0022251; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:33:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ec01c6157d$703366f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:33:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > Also of interest is that H2O absorbs energy at 190, 200, 250, > 300, and 400 nm wavelengths. Do you have a reference for these UV lines ? BTW the main cosmological frequencies used to spot water are the H2O vapor absorption peaks at around 180 GHz and 320 GHz and there is also strong microwave absorption of water at around 22 GHz. This later one is not a simple rotational transition but it is the most used by cosmologists, I have read, as the others are out of range of inexpensive precision instrumentation. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 17:45:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A1ix44001688; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:45:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A1ivcb001678; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:44:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:44:49 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E39E93A46EC5-1364-68B5@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E3833D3651AA-1DB8-BF18@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180852.0342bd40@mindspring.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180852.0342bd40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: D2Fusion Library Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A1itcs001620 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Must be so. I'm not a lert; but, figgered it out anyway. Btw, it's "Bwaaa, ha, ha . . ." -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell   Ha, ha. Alert users will figure out where the papers are. That is the beauty of the Internet.    - Jed    ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 17:47:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A1lEYE002960; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:47:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A1lDt4002939; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:47:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:46:58 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E39EE0F5B095-1364-68C1@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's called the "Little Effect". It's the anthesis of the "Hutchison Effect". ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence But EarthTech never succeeds in reproducing anything, and it always turns out they've done the experiment so differently from the original that there was no hope of its working ... right? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 18:17:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A2GgYU024664; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:16:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A2Gdhr024617; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:16:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:14:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Off Topic: Analysis - what does that word mean? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A2GRJh024418 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Analysis - what does that word mean? Is analysis dead or is a new analysis emerging? Harry ----------------- What follows has been copied from: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analysis/index.html#4 See this link for complete text. ----------------- Analysis Analysis has always been at the heart of philosophical method, but it has been understood and practised in many different ways. Perhaps in its broadest sense, it might be defined as disclosing or working back to what is more fundamental by means of which something can be explained (which is often then exhibited in a corresponding process of synthesis); but this allows great variation in specific method. The dominance of Œanalytic¹ philosophy in the English-speaking world, and increasingly now in the rest of the world, might suggest that a consensus has formed concerning the role and importance of analysis. But this begs the question as to what Œanalysis¹ means. On the other hand, Wittgenstein's later critique of analysis in the early (logical atomist) period of analytic philosophy, and Quine's attack on the analytic-synthetic distinction, for example, have led some to claim that we are now in a Œpost-analytic¹ age. But such criticisms are only directed at particular conceptions of analysis. If we look at the history of philosophy (and even if we just look at the history of analytic philosophy), we find a rich and extensive repertoire of conceptions of analysis which philosophers have continually drawn upon and reconfigured in different ways. Analytic philosophy is alive and well precisely because of the range of conceptions of analysis that it involves. It may have fragmented into various interlocking subtraditions, but those subtraditions are held together by both their shared history and their methodological interconnections. It is the aim of this article to indicate something of the range of conceptions of analysis in the history of philosophy and their interconnections, and to provide a bibliographical resource for those wishing to explore analytic methodologies and the philosophical issues that they raise. * 1. General Introduction * 1.1 Characterizations of Analysis * 1.2 Guide to this Entry * Supplementary Document: Definitions and Descriptions of Analysis * 2. Ancient Conceptions of Analysis and the Emergence of the Regressive Conception * Supplementary Document: Ancient Conceptions of Analysis * 1. Introduction * 2. Ancient Greek Geometry * 3. Plato * 4. Aristotle * 3. Medieval and Renaissance Conceptions of Analysis * Supplementary Document: Medieval and Renaissance Conceptions of Analysis * 1. Medieval Philosophy * 2. Renaissance Philosophy * 4. Early Modern Conceptions of Analysis and the Development of the Decompositional Conception * Supplementary Document: Early Modern Conceptions of Analysis * 1. Introduction * 2. Descartes and Analytic Geometry * 3. British Empiricism * 4. Leibniz * 5. Kant * 5. Conceptions of Analysis in the 19th Century * Supplementary Document: Conceptions of Analysis in the 19th Century [Not yet available] * 1. Introduction * 2. German Idealism and Romanticism * 3. Neo-Kantianism and Scientific Philosophy * 4. British and American Philosophy * 5. Bolzano * 6. Conceptions of Analysis in Analytic Philosophy and the Emergence of the Logical Conception * Supplementary Document: Conceptions of Analysis in Analytic Philosophy * 1. Introduction * 2. Frege * 3. Russell * 4. Moore * 5. Wittgenstein * 6. The Cambridge School of Analysis * 7. Carnap and Logical Positivism * 8. Oxford Linguistic Philosophy * 9. Contemporary Analytic Philosophy * 7. Conclusion * Bibliography * Other Internet Resources * Related Entries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. General Introduction This section provides a preliminary description of analysis -- or the range of different conceptions of analysis -- and a guide to this article as a whole. 1.1 Characterizations of Analysis If asked what Œanalysis¹ means, most people today immediately think of breaking something down into its components; and this is how analysis tends to be officially characterized. In the Concise Oxford Dictionary (6th ed.), for example, Œanalysis¹ is defined as the ³resolution into simpler elements by analysing (opp. synthesis)², the only other uses mentioned being the mathematical and the psychological. And in the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Œanalysis¹ is defined as ³the process of breaking a concept down into more simple parts, so that its logical structure is displayed² (Blackburn 1996, 14). The restriction to concepts and the reference to displaying Œlogical structure¹ are important qualifications, but the core conception remains that of breaking something down. This conception may be called the decompositional or resolutive conception of analysis (see Section 4). But it is not the only conception, and indeed is arguably neither the dominant conception in the pre-modern period nor the conception that is characteristic of at least one major strand in Œanalytic¹ philosophy. In ancient Greek thought, Œanalysis¹ referred primarily to the process of working back to first principles by means of which something could then be demonstrated. This conception may be called the regressive conception of analysis (see Section 2). In the work of Frege and Russell, on the other hand, before the process of resolution could take place, the statements to be analyzed had first to be translated into their Œcorrect¹ logical form (see Section 6). This suggests that analysis also involves a transformative or interpretive dimension. This too, however, has its roots in earlier thought (see especially the supplementary sections on Ancient Greek Geometry and Medieval Philosophy). These three conceptions should not be seen as competing. In actual practices of analysis, which are invariably richer than the accounts that are offered of them, all three conceptions are typically reflected, though to differing degrees and in differing forms. To analyze something, we may first have to interpret it in some way, translating an initial statement, say, into the privileged language of logic, mathematics or science, before articulating the relevant elements and structures, and all in the service of identifying fundamental principles by means of which to explain it. The complexities that this schematic description suggests can only be appreciated by considering particular types of analysis. Understanding conceptions of analysis is not simply a matter of attending to the use of the word Œanalysis¹. Socratic definition is arguably a form of conceptual analysis, yet the term Œanalysis¹ does not occur anywhere in Plato's dialogues (see the supplementary section on Plato). In Latin, Œresolutio¹ was used to render the Greek word Œanalusis¹, and although Œresolution¹ has a different range of meanings, it is often used synonymously with Œanalysis¹ (see the supplementary section on Renaissance Philosophy). At least from the time of Descartes, if not from Aristotle, forms of analysis have also involved Œreduction¹; and in early analytic philosophy it was Œreduction¹ that was seen as the goal of philosophical analysis (see the supplementary section on The Cambridge School of Analysis). Today, across all fields, there are many different types of analysis, such as cost-benefit analysis, discourse analysis, functional analysis and systems analysis, to name but four, and analysis has special connotations in psychology (where it is associated with the work of Freud, Jung and their successors) and in mathematics (where it involves the use of the differential and integral calculus). The focus here is on conceptions of analysis in philosophy, but this is not to deny that there are complex interrelations with conceptions in other fields of thought and intricate patterns of influence. Further details of characterizations of analysis that have been offered in the history of philosophy can be found in the supplementary document From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 18:30:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A2UM77001685; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:30:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A2UKQe001649; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:30:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:30:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ec01c6158d$c88c7ca0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Off Topic: Analysis - what does that word mean? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:30:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-OhzrB.A.oZ.7wxwDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Analysis - what does that word mean? Would it be mean... (or just average) to say this article leads one to the conclusion that 'analysis' requires a rather 'anal' predisposition? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 18:40:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A2eGgO007263; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:40:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A2eDeh007215; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <21575267.1136860809490.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:40:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Please protest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >What email address to use? There are a number of them www.washpost.com/news_ed/news/contact_news.shtml>. Are you >suggesting letters to the editor for publishing? Goodness, there are a lot of addresses. Not sure. I send something yesterday to "editor@washpost.com" but in the letters section they say you should write to: letters@washpost.com . . . and include your name and address. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 18:51:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A2osJY013611; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:50:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A2oq28013591; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:50:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:50:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01af01c61590$64eaa110$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <21575267.1136860809490.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Please protest Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:48:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at broadbandsupport.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think it's worth a protest for the simple reason that it will make the newspaper aware that there actually is interest in cold fusion out there. It might even lead to a follow-up article. Actually, the mainstream press has been rather quiet about cold fusion recently. 2004 was a banner year for cold fusion coverage in the mainstream media with coverage from the New York Times to Nature, in the wake of the DOE report. 2005 was kind of quiet. 2006? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Please protest > Horace Heffner wrote: > >>What email address to use? There are a number of them >www.washpost.com/news_ed/news/contact_news.shtml>. Are you >>suggesting letters to the editor for publishing? > > Goodness, there are a lot of addresses. Not sure. I send something > yesterday to "editor@washpost.com" but in the letters section they say you > should write to: > > letters@washpost.com > > . . . and include your name and address. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 18:54:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A2sBnZ015192; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:54:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A2sA9H015156; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:54:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:54:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c61591$18057590$4e027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Fw: Mention of Cold Fusion Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:53:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6155E.CCF25320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6155E.CCF25320 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C6155E.CCF25320" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C6155E.CCF25320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed and Vorts, ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: editor=20 Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: Mention of Cold Fusion Reference: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" by Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles, = January 8, 2006, p. B03. Reporting that cold fusion research has been " debunked" ignores the = increase in related categories of research and technology advances that = have resulted from the candid publishing of scientific works in cold = fusion. The technology fallout alone has been beneficial to firms such = as ours that are not in the energy related business. We find the enthusiasm of these research scientists to challenge us. It = is refreshing that they also publish their failures which, perhaps = therein, lies the problem some establishment types have with = competition. Richard Macaulay=20 3942 Hartfield Rd. Round Top, Tx 78954-5132 979 249-5757 ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C6155E.CCF25320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed and Vorts,
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: RC = Macaulay
To: editor
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Mention of Cold Fusion

Reference: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" by Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles, = January=20 8, 2006, p. B03.
 
Reporting that  cold fusion research has been " debunked" = ignores=20 the increase in related categories of research and technology advances = that have=20 resulted from the candid publishing of scientific works in cold = fusion. The=20 technology fallout alone has been beneficial to firms such as ours = that are=20 not in the energy related business.
 
We find the enthusiasm of these research scientists to challenge = us. It is=20 refreshing that they also publish their failures which, perhaps = therein,=20 lies the problem some establishment types have with competition.
 
Richard Macaulay
3942 Hartfield Rd. Round Top, Tx 78954-5132
979 249-5757
------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C6155E.CCF25320-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6155E.CCF25320 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401c61591$177bfa40$4e027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C6155E.CCF25320-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 20:25:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A4Ojcg022937; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:24:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A4OhFP022895; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:24:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:24:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109201432.029bdda8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:17:22 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology In-Reply-To: <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>George's work. Since Les Case is involved it is reasonable they are Who said Les Case is involved? Where's this information from? I'm quite surprised to hear that considering the nature of the last phone conversation I had with him. S From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 20:45:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A4jRX3009146; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:45:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A4heY4007378; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:43:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:43:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:41:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Analysis - what does that word mean? In-reply-to: <01ec01c6158d$c88c7ca0$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A4hSu1007167 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > >> Analysis - what does that word mean? > > Would it be mean... (or just average) to say this article leads > one to the conclusion that 'analysis' requires a rather 'anal' > predisposition? > > > ;-) Not necessarily. At the site it says this: "The word Œanalysis¹ derives from the ancient Greek term Œanalusis¹. The prefix Œana¹ means Œup¹, and Œlusis¹ means Œloosing¹, Œrelease¹ or Œseparation¹, so that Œanalusis¹ means Œloosening up¹ or Œdissolution¹. The term was readily extended to the solving or dissolving of a problem, and it was in this sense that it was employed in ancient Greek geometry and philosophy." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 21:01:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A51Xha018821; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:01:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A51V1S018807; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:01:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:01:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <020f01c615a2$e71bec90$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Off Topic: Analysis - what does that word mean? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:01:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: QED From: Harry Veeder >>> Analysis - what does that word mean? >> Would it be mean... (or just average) to say this article leads >> one to the conclusion that 'analysis' requires a rather 'anal' >> predisposition? >> > ;-) > Not necessarily. > > At the site it says this: > > "The word Oanalysis¹ derives from the ancient Greek term > Oanalusis¹. The > prefix Oana¹ means Oup¹, and Olusis¹ means Oloosing¹, Orelease¹ > or > Oseparation¹, so that Oanalusis¹ means Oloosening up¹ or > Odissolution¹. The > term was readily extended to the solving or dissolving of a > problem, and it > was in this sense that it was employed in ancient Greek geometry > and > philosophy." > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 21:51:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A5pQYE012452; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:51:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A5pOF0012435; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:51:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:51:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109215429.02960798@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:54:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) JAN. 10, 2006 -- Issue #14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_93208265==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_93208265==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_93208281==.ALT" --=====================_93208281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [] Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Jan. 10, 2006 -- Issue #14 ISSUE #14 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/NET14.htm EDITORIALS AND OPINION 1. From the Editor: Low-Energy Nuclear Transmutations Take Center Stage 2. To the Editor NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS 3. 2006 Cold Fusion Conferences 4. Cold Fusion Short Documentary Video 5. Conference Proceedings ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES 6. An Outsider's View of Cold Fusion 7. 12th International Conference On Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF12) 8. Dolan ICCF12 Report 9. Chubb ICCF12 Report 10. The Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Method BITS AND PIECES 11. "Unconventional Science," A British Military Presentation 12. Amoco Paper Posted 13. Cold Fusion Papers Published 14. Wikipedia Warriors Defend Cold Fusion 15. Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion 16. Contribute 17. Administrative New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. ---------- If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_93208281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

[]
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
Jan. 10, 2006 -- Issue #14

 ISSUE #14 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/NET14.htm

 

EDITORIALS AND OPINION
 1.   From the Editor: Low-Energy Nuclear Transmutations Take Center Stage
2.   To the Editor
NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
 3.   2006 Cold Fusion Conferences
4.   Cold Fusion Short Documentary Video
5.   Conference Proceedings
ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES
6.   An Outsider’s View of Cold Fusion
7.   12th International Conference On Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF12)
8.   Dolan ICCF12 Report
9.   Chubb ICCF12 Report
10. The Hydraulic-Electrostatic Cold Fusion Method
BITS AND PIECES
11.  "Unconventional Science," A British Military Presentation
12.   Amoco Paper Posted
13.   Cold Fusion Papers Published
14.   Wikipedia Warriors Defend Cold Fusion
15.  Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion
16.  Contribute
17.  Administrative


New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.


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MYHX8cfXPGD371/CmYYzF5ljMVmONnLF4rGYl1qs5y5pc82pSnKUrtycnKXN+S0P3/CYeng8Ph8N Tbdr3lLWUrJP3nd+u7vd3v1s0Ug5APqBS1kdQUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFJ7fOP5oAqF/vH8 P5Ciirjv93/pURraXp+qMWeCFiu6GJv3jtzGh+YAYbkdR2PWrNvb26PFsghTlvuxIvY+iiiivWl/ A/7df/pMj5Ol/wAjrEf44/8ApCNbA9B+QpqAYBwM+uOep70UV41TZetP84n01H4X6r/0iI+iiima dV6P84hRRRQMKKKKACiiigD/2Q== --=====================_93208265==.REL-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 9 22:08:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A67d45021086; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:07:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A67bIK021054; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:07:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:07:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:05:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Off Topic: Analysis - what does that word mean? In-reply-to: <020f01c615a2$e71bec90$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A67ZY5021028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmmm Your thinking is retentive. My thinking is constipated. ;-) Harry Jones Beene wrote: > QED > > > > From: Harry Veeder > >>>> Analysis - what does that word mean? > >>> Would it be mean... (or just average) to say this article leads >>> one to the conclusion that 'analysis' requires a rather 'anal' >>> predisposition? > >>> > >> ;-) > >> Not necessarily. >> >> At the site it says this: >> >> "The word Oanalysis¹ derives from the ancient Greek term >> Oanalusis¹. The >> prefix Oana¹ means Oup¹, and Olusis¹ means Oloosing¹, Orelease¹ >> or >> Oseparation¹, so that Oanalusis¹ means Oloosening up¹ or >> Odissolution¹. The >> term was readily extended to the solving or dissolving of a >> problem, and it >> was in this sense that it was employed in ancient Greek geometry >> and >> philosophy." > >> Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 00:11:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A8B0tn006990; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:11:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A8AvuE006968; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:10:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109201432.029bdda8@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109201432.029bdda8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8ED72ED5-E7A6-444E-82C2-9202872BBAA1@mtaonline.net> From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:08:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A8As0G006944 Resent-Message-ID: <4OnrT.A.0sB.Rw2wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Steven Krivit wrote: > >>> George's work. Since Les Case is involved it is reasonable they are > > > Who said Les Case is involved? Where's this information from? > > I'm quite surprised to hear that considering the nature of the last > phone conversation I had with him. Shows what can happens when one casually assumes! The web site left me with the wrong impression. Now looking back I now see I read too much into the following: Search for “Case” in the above. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 00:24:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A8Od86012290; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:24:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A8OblO012273; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:24:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:24:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <00ec01c6157d$703366f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <00ec01c6157d$703366f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:22:36 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > >> Also of interest is that H2O absorbs energy at 190, 200, 250, >> 300, and 400 nm wavelengths. > > Do you have a reference for these UV lines ? Yes. It's the "UV Spectra of Common Liquids" section of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, CRC Press,, 74th Edition, 1993-1994, page 9-166 (that's page 166 of section 9). > > BTW the main cosmological frequencies used to spot water are the > H2O vapor absorption peaks at around 180 GHz and 320 GHz and there > is also strong microwave absorption of water at around 22 GHz. This > later one is not a simple rotational transition but it is the most > used by cosmologists, I have read, as the others are out of range > of inexpensive precision instrumentation. That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna sets up its own field that interferes with the big incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never did understand that effect. Do you have a reference on the those numbers? They sound handy. Out of curiosity, the 190, 200, 250, 300, and 400 nm wavelengths are 157.8, 149.9, 119.9, 99.9, and 74.9 THz. Strange these don't agree with yet overlap the vibrational frequencies of water: symmetrical anti-symmetrical bend stretch stretch H2O 47.8 109.6 112.6 D2O 35.3 80.1 83.6 Table 2 - The vibrational frequencies of water molecule in THz. I computed he above from table 3 - which comes from page 9-147 of the same CRC Handbook as above. symmetrical anti-symmetrical bend stretch stretch H2O 1595 3657 3756 D2O 1178 2671 2788 Table 3 - The vibrational wave number of water molecule in cm^-1. Looks like I did that right. Interesting the vibration frequencies don't relate to the absorption frequencies. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 00:32:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A8WJmE015013; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:32:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A8WHve014991; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:32:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060109201432.029bdda8@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109201432.029bdda8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2B51E897-CB02-4F66-A281-37B28AE77C48@mtaonline.net> From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:30:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0A8WE9N014963 Resent-Message-ID: <0kskgB.A.LqD.QE3wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See Search for “Case” in the above. Note that there is unnecessarily two "read more" references to the collaboration between George and Case on that page. See the old familiar graph at the top left. Why give two references to Case if there was a falling out? Very strange! Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 01:22:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A9MHF3002369; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:22:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A9MEmA002338; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:22:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:22:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Old photo Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:20:13 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <3MF1TD.A.ak.Gz3wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For the rare individual who likes to look at amateur experimental set- ups (they all look so much alike, don't they), I took a digital photo of a polaroid photo from 12/2/1997 in my old lab book, and included it on page 7 of . Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 01:48:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0A9mcMp011083; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:48:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0A9mafA011056; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:48:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:48:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:46:35 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > Srinivasan, M., Nuclear fusion in an atomic lattice: An update on > the international status of cold fusion research. Curr. Sci., 1991. > 60: p. 417, 39 pages. > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Srinivasannuclearfus.pdf > Note in Table 3 (page 10) the highest tritium production is in the experiments having Ni anodes. Ni is an oxide forming metal and can be conditioned like Zn or Al. Too bad there is no data on anode area. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 02:01:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AA0hS2016445; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:00:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AA0YOB016367; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:00:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:58:28 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > Srinivasan, M., Nuclear fusion in an atomic lattice: An update on > the international status of cold fusion research. Curr. Sci., 1991. > 60: p. 417, 39 pages. > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Srinivasannuclearfus.pdf > Note in Table 3 (page 10) the highest tritium production is in the experiments having Ni anodes. Ni is an oxide forming metal and can be conditioned like Zn or Al. Too bad there is no data on anode area. Note also they are running those experiments at whopping current densities! At 300 mA/cm^2 they have to be running at a fairly high voltage. That current density is more than enough to condition an anode. Hard to believe they could sustain that after an oxide coating formed - unless using a constant current supply, in which case it ran the voltage up to the sky by the end. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 02:04:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AA4DGC019895; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:04:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AA4A5n019868; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:04:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:04:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC469187196@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT RE: Richard Sheldrake Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:04:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, Not a case of old news but re-interpreting news much as history is re-interpreted and placed in a different light. Yes on the methylation issue, can't remember off-hand but I think adding methyl groups switches off a gene. Yes, inter-uterine development, early childhood years and whether we are exposed to feast or famine conditions has a lot to do with the development of type II diabetes for instance. This happens a lot with 3rd world people coming to 1st world countries. My father had a pretty Spartan existence walking 10 miles round trip to school every morning, swimming and lots of sports that any Caribbean youngster would have. The body gets tailored to this lifestyle and the only remedy is lots of exercise throughout life - he's as fit as a fiddle. Apparently humans are a bit odd on the telomeres issue I believe we have 7 bites at the cherry before the cell shuts down. Also 'senescent' cells say from a 100 year old are really quite viable. Aging appears to be a system wide thing to do with bio-chemical signalling - I heard. Yes cloning is scary until they crack this issue they shouldn't, perhaps attempt it on humans. Just imagine a 10 year old with the biochemistry of a fifty year old. That would be cruel. Oh yes, I think it's Richard not Rupert. Sub-consciously I didn't want to label him a 'Richard' - if you see what I mean. Remi. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Stephen A. Lawrence Sent: 09 January 2006 18:16 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rupert Sheldrake R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk wrote: > OK, > You caught me p.ssing about and dossing today. Here's a semi serious one: > > They imply that there is a genetic mechanism other than sexual selection. > This one is going on about smoking knocking off methyl groups on DNA and the > effects persisting for generations. Sounds like Sheldrake's acquired > characteristics to me - definitely non-Darwinian. There are a number of non-Darwinian effects on the offspring, starting with variations in the intrauterine environment, which has a big impact, and which can end up carrying extra-genetic effects forward for a couple generations. The fact that such influences exist isn't new news, but new examples of that kind of thing are news. Methylation is an issue, too, but I generally had the impression that the methylation situation got "reset" during meiosis -- something like the situation with the telomeres, which are generally patched up for each new generation (except after cloning, of course). Certainly all forms of IVF and cloning tend to leave rather bolixed methylation in their wake; for IVF and ICSI there appear to be, at worst, only minor effects on the children (whom, one assumes, would not have been conceived without the intervention). The consequences in some animals appear to be more severe, with sheep, in particular, showing odd problems in a number of the lambs after some processes which mess with the methylation of the genome. I recall in particular a problem which might be called big-floppy-lambs syndrome but I disrecall the actual name just now. > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925334.000;jsessionid=NJMKLCBMNHFF > > I like the way the establishment kinda subsumes controversial stuff quietly > without ever admitting it was wrong. Same old some old is the Americanism, I > think. > Remi. > ....................................... > Website > http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 > ....................................... > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 03:25:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ABPhF3023932; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:25:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ABPg62023902; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:25:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110112528973.EDB9A5C00091@mwinf3113.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110112530.00a12268@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:25:30 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 pm 09/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote: >> BTW the main cosmological frequencies used to spot water are the >> H2O vapor absorption peaks at around 180 GHz and 320 GHz and there >> is also strong microwave absorption of water at around 22 GHz. This >> later one is not a simple rotational transition but it is the most >> used by cosmologists, I have read, as the others are out of range >> of inexpensive precision instrumentation. > > That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. The 320 GHz, 180 > GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm > wavelength respectively. That is to say I wonder how that tiny > molecule collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the effect > Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna sets up its own field that > interferes with the big incoming signal and collects energy from it. > I never did understand that effect. On the other hand it could be because it collects energy, not from the transverse wave but from the much shorter longitudinal wave. I realise you wont understand what on earth I'm on about, Horace - but I'm just putting it in here for the record and because it might just spark some lurker who has a scientific curiousity even greater than mine. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 03:46:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ABjbEo031411; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:45:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ABjY3s031350; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:45:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:45:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:37:08 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote on 1-9-06: Well, it *is* true that Scott Little gained a reputation on vortex for a psychic ability to suppress cold fusion. You know, a negative telekinetic quantum observation thingy. 8^) OTOH, Scott's excellence in calorimetry may be the reason for all the negative results ... Hi All, I place most of the blame for Scott's inabilty to reproduce BLP's results on BLP's refusal to cooperte with Scott, whose experimental work is the gold standard, as far as I'm concerned. However, on 19 Apr, 1998, I engaged in the following correspondence: ``Subject: Re: BLP (Black Light Power) Run #14 Scott Little (little@eden.com) wrote: ::: Jack Smith asked about Run #14.... ::: We never saw a peep of excess heat ::: and they never even lifted a finger to assist us. ... Hi Scott, BlackLight Power is probably so far ahead that they see no need to make any concessions; but there may be alternative approaches which they have not thought of. Regardless of the risks and benefits involved, their decision is unfortunate. The other issue which you raise deserves some discussion: "We never saw a peep ..." Some time ago you shared a Scientific American Frontiers program with a young lady [Emily Rosa] whose science project examined whether or not touch therapists could tell which of their hands her hand was hovering over. Their detection rate was no better than chance. Recently, her work was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. The touch therapist success rate was only 44%, a slight but interesting negative correlation. Consider another experiment in which the effect of fertilizer brand on petunia growth is to be determined: Soil, seeds, and fertilizer are added to each pot, BUT NO WATER. At the end of a month, it is concluded that fertilizer brand has no effect on petunia growth. How is the "no effect" result of the touch therapist experiment similar to that of the petunia experiment? Suppose the touch therapists are used in an experiment to determine whether or not humans can give blood to each other. In this case, a few drops of blood from the experimenter are mixed with a sample of blood from each therapist. Using a magnifying glass, no clumping of the blood (which would be disastrous in someone's veins) is observed (the experimenter is blood type O- ). It is concluded that anyone can give blood to anyone. ----- Ridiculous? Just as people have different blood types, they may have different "fields" or "auras". [A touch therapist would not have detected the the presence of someone who does not generate ANY field. At least one other person besides Emily should have hovered her hand over the hands of the touch therapists. By the way, for me the field concept is just a calculational convenience -- I prefer a mental model for force transmission that relies on particle interactions.] The petunia experiment is even more complicated if the effect of each fertilizer brand is optimized with a different amount of water. The BLP situation is several orders of magnitude more complex than the other experiments mentioned here, and "no effect" should be perceived as only the result in the specific experiments conducted so far.'' Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 03:49:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ABnYJ5000858; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:49:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ABnWjF000813; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:49:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:49:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC4691871C3@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Rupert Sheldrake Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:48:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: <222vXC.A.pM.M95wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, Thanks for the website. I'll have a look later. Just out of interest, I remember you come from Hawaii. Is that correct? Remi. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Rick Monteverde Sent: 09 January 2006 21:28 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Rupert Sheldrake Lots of that about. Try www.panspermia.com - R. -----Original Message----- From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk [mailto:R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Rupert Sheldrake OK, You caught me p.ssing about and dossing today. Here's a semi serious one: They imply that there is a genetic mechanism other than sexual selection. This one is going on about smoking knocking off methyl groups on DNA and the effects persisting for generations. Sounds like Sheldrake's acquired characteristics to me - definitely non-Darwinian. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925334.000;jsessionid=NJMKLCBMNH FF I like the way the establishment kinda subsumes controversial stuff quietly without ever admitting it was wrong. Same old some old is the Americanism, I think. Remi. ....................................... Website http://luna.bton.ac.uk/~roc1 ....................................... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 03:58:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ABwE4a004458; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:58:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ABwCfM004418; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:58:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01e201c615dc$d9b69d90$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:56:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taylor J. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch > > Horace Heffner wrote on 1-9-06: > > Well, it *is* true that Scott Little gained a reputation on vortex > for a psychic ability to suppress cold fusion. You know, a negative > telekinetic quantum observation thingy. 8^) OTOH, Scott's > excellence in calorimetry may be the reason for all the negative > results ... > > Hi All, > > I place most of the blame for Scott's inabilty to reproduce > BLP's results on BLP's refusal to cooperte with Scott, > whose experimental work is the gold standard, as far as I'm > concerned. > > However, on 19 Apr, 1998, I engaged in the following > correspondence: > > ``Subject: Re: BLP (Black Light Power) Run #14 > > Scott Little (little@eden.com) wrote: > > ::: Jack Smith asked about Run #14.... > > ::: We never saw a peep of excess heat > > ::: and they never even lifted a finger to assist us. ... > > Hi Scott, > > BlackLight Power is probably so far ahead that they > see no need to make any concessions; but there may be > alternative approaches which they have not thought of. > Regardless of the risks and benefits involved, their > decision is unfortunate. > > The other issue which you raise deserves some discussion: > "We never saw a peep ..." Some time ago you shared a > Scientific American Frontiers program with a young lady > [Emily Rosa] whose science project examined whether or not > touch therapists could tell which of their hands her hand > was hovering over. Their detection rate was no better > than chance. > > Recently, her work was published in the Journal of the > American Medical Association. The touch therapist success > rate was only 44%, a slight but interesting negative > correlation. > > Consider another experiment in which the effect of > fertilizer brand on petunia growth is to be determined: > Soil, seeds, and fertilizer are added to each pot, BUT > NO WATER. At the end of a month, it is concluded that > fertilizer brand has no effect on petunia growth. > > How is the "no effect" result of the touch therapist > experiment similar to that of the petunia experiment? > Suppose the touch therapists are used in an experiment > to determine whether or not humans can give blood to > each other. In this case, a few drops of blood from > the experimenter are mixed with a sample of blood from > each therapist. Using a magnifying glass, no clumping of > the blood (which would be disastrous in someone's veins) > is observed (the experimenter is blood type O- ). > > It is concluded that anyone can give blood to anyone. > ----- Ridiculous? Just as people have different blood > types, they may have different "fields" or "auras". [A > touch therapist would not have detected the the presence > of someone who does not generate ANY field. At least one > other person besides Emily should have hovered her hand > over the hands of the touch therapists. By the way, for > me the field concept is just a calculational convenience -- > I prefer a mental model for force transmission that relies > on particle interactions.] > > The petunia experiment is even more complicated if the > effect of each fertilizer brand is optimized with a > different amount of water. > > The BLP situation is several orders of magnitude more > complex than the other experiments mentioned here, and > "no effect" should be perceived as only the result in the > specific experiments conducted so far.'' > > Jack Smith You do have to wonder if BLP really has anything behind all the hype? I mean, they've been working on their hydrino technology for well over a decade now, and is there really any evidence that it is a new and revolutionary energy source? What exactly is holding them up from revealing their technology to the world? Seems like typical alt.energy footdragging that ends with nothing of substance. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 05:37:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ADY2fS003563; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:36:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ACdboK023178; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:39:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:39:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:40:23 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: feedback on Barely a drop of fraud Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1075225661==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: <3lpxCD.A.7pF.Fs6wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1075225661==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Washington Post Editor Dear Sir; It his come to my attention that Berryann Holtzmann Kever, writing in your paper, has said Regarding: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" , January 8, 2006, p. B03. I know that Ms. Kever's attacks on low energy nuclear reactions are false. You are, or should be savvy enough to know that they false. As you know people my age, 55, are abandoning the main stream media in droves. This is because we are tired of being fed false, agenda driven news. What I want to know is, whose agenda is this? As Bernard Goldberg said to Andy Roney in Arrogance, "when a profession has discredited itself, is there any further need for it?" --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --============_-1075225661==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" feedback on Barely a drop of fraud
Washington Post
Editor

Dear Sir;
It his come to my attention that Berryann Holtzmann Kever, writing in your paper, has said Regarding: "Barely a Drop of Fraud" , January 8, 2006, p. B03.

I know that Ms. Kever's attacks on low energy nuclear reactions are false. You are, or should be savvy enough to know that they false.

As you know people my age, 55, are abandoning the main stream media in droves. This is because we are tired of being fed false, agenda driven news. What I want to know is, whose agenda is this?

As Bernard Goldberg said to Andy Roney in Arrogance, "when a profession has discredited itself, is there any further need for it?"


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--============_-1075225661==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 06:14:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AEEAhA025809; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AEE8kq025788; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:14:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c615f0$1a013960$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taylor J. Smith" Subject: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch > I place most of the blame for Scott's inabilty to reproduce > BLP's results on BLP's refusal to cooperte with Scott, > whose experimental work is the gold standard, as far as I'm > concerned. Bah. Scott did two BLP experiments, one electrolytic [which I did not follow at the time] and one in gas phase. On a visit to Earth Tech several years ago [on another topic], Scott took me on a tour of his lab, and showed what he had done to test BLP's gas phase experiments. This involved the evaporation of KNO3 in the thermal reactor. He broke open an automobile tail lamp for a tungsted filament, and arranged a tiny boat uder it to contains some KNO3, and put the combination into a vacuum chanber with some hydrogrn introduced. And saw no plasma nor excess heat. No surprise. This is in no way "gold standard" work. In all fairness to Scott, whom I consider a gentleman, he is very good at calorimetry suitable for evaluating electrolytic cold fusion cells. Scott's BLP experiment did not include the necessary titanium dissociator. Conrads, in Germany, did see the plasma with the KNO3 when he had all the essential elements of the BLP reactor in place. Scott did not. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 06:18:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AEIHq3027864; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:18:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AEI7tO027754; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:18:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:18:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:17:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote on 1-9-06: > > Well, it *is* true that Scott Little gained a reputation on vortex > for a psychic ability to suppress cold fusion. You know, a negative > telekinetic quantum observation thingy. 8^) OTOH, Scott's > excellence in calorimetry may be the reason for all the negative > results ... > > Hi All, > > I place most of the blame for Scott's inabilty to reproduce > BLP's results on BLP's refusal to cooperte with Scott, > whose experimental work is the gold standard, as far as I'm > concerned. > > However, on 19 Apr, 1998, I engaged in the following > correspondence: > > ``Subject: Re: BLP (Black Light Power) Run #14 > > Scott Little (little@eden.com) wrote: > > ::: Jack Smith asked about Run #14.... > > ::: We never saw a peep of excess heat > > ::: and they never even lifted a finger to assist us. ... > > Hi Scott, > > BlackLight Power is probably so far ahead that they > see no need to make any concessions; but there may be > alternative approaches which they have not thought of. > Regardless of the risks and benefits involved, their > decision is unfortunate. And it's also very different from what Mizuno did in similar circumstances. Whether Scott's right or wrong in his assessment of Mizuno's work, he got a reasonable amount of help, including the cathode he used in at least one run, from Mizuno's lab. In short, Mizuno acts like a researcher who's trying to track down the workings of an interesting effect. Mills at BLP, on the other hand, seems to act like he has something to hide. It's unfortunate. Equally unfortunate, IMHO, is the fact that Scott didn't fly to Japan (with a few meters stuffed in a bag) to observe one of Mizuno's successful runs first hand, and determine for himself whether Mizuno's voltage and current measurements and cooling curve determinations were up to snuff -- but that's another story... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 06:42:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AEgVUg010926; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:42:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AEgR6k010890; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:42:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:42:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004e01c615f4$0e9cfa10$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <8C7E39EE0F5B095-1364-68C1@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:19:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: thoughts about D2fusion technology > It's called the "Little Effect". It's the anthesis of the "Hutchison > Effect". ;-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence > > But EarthTech never succeeds in reproducing anything, and it always turns > out they've done the experiment so differently from the original that > there was no hope of its working ... right? In my opinion, Scott is a litmus test to determine if something is ready for prime time. If a process or effect is well enough defined such that Scott can build it and make it work, it is ready for prime time. That's not a bad criterion, actually, and perhaps so indicates that it is worth inevestment by Earth Tech's wealthy patron. Mike Carrell > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 06:50:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AEoXbe013693; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:50:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AEoWed013666; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:50:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: Has Physics Gone Nuts? Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:50:20 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AD34736@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Has Physics Gone Nuts? thread-index: AcYV9S18uIlwEgevQn6/PNDj7qP9Rw== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2006 14:50:20.0822 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DEB8B60:01C615F5] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0AEoQc1013554 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forgive this rant, but I couldn't resist. I came across a paper called "Alteration of Nuclear Beta Decay by Non-Nuclear Strong Fields" ( Laser Physics Vol. 9 No.1 1999 pp. 92-97) It asserts that beta decay in radioactive elements could be triggered by external applied EMF - and that this could be a powerful new energy source! "Were it possible, accelerated decay of highly forbidden beta decay materials would be the ideal long-term energy source" The study is one of many that have appeared over the years, done by H.R. Reiss of the American University. It uses arcane and complex mathematics to make it's point. So, lemme get this straight, as an outside observer: The year is 1999 and the issue of the radioactive constant, independent of all outside influences STILL HASN'T BEEN SETTLED? You mean that there is no body of experimental results as yet to settle the issue? ( "Yup, I got my Tesla Coil and diathermy machine and some radium needles and put this theory to bed") Is physical reality solely determined by mathematics? Is that the sole determinant of truth these days? Is this reasonable especially if such beta decay Is triggered by events in the quantum realm - which could be purely arbitrary? Yes, statistical analysis works - but the quantum arena ultimately "just is" as argued by Victor Stenger in Decoherence theory ( a skeptics answer to non locality). Who knows - until somebody actually DOES THE EXPERIMENTS and STOPS ARGUING ABOUT MATH ACROSS DECADES OF TIME! If I was a Creationist, I'd jump on this like a hungry lion on a gazelle. Whether it works or not is hardly the point ( although it would be wonderful if it did!) - what's happened to physics these days? Has it gone nuts? OK, I feel better now. Rant over. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 07:12:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AFCCtg022573; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:12:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AFC8bq022514; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:12:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:12:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lACgiidwhOj2iW1pqcQLAlUTCA6a4304HcVns8PYl1QSMujgNVkFLo988AdSygW3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612101511282@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circular Wing Aircraft, Scooped by US 5,503,351 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:11:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94061271fc3fb08a40323bff02a40531a94350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.39 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Scooped on an idea suggested to a friend for a home brew Hovercraft with 1/2 ton lift using a 10 Hp lawnmower engine. Plugging 5,503,351 into "Term 1" brings up the patent and those that reference it. http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html Abstract "A circular wing aircraft in the form of a helicopter comprising a fuselage and a circular wing assembly. A structure is for mounting the circular wing assembly above the fuselage in a stationary manner. An air impeller unit is rotatively carried within the circular wing assembly. A device is for driving the air impeller unit to rotate about a central axis within the circular wing assembly, so as to provide lift and flight movement while yaw control is maintained." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Scooped on an idea suggested to a friend for a home brew Hovercraft with
1/2 ton lift using a 10 Hp lawnmower engine.
 
Plugging 5,503,351 into "Term 1" brings up the patent and those that
reference it.
 
 
Abstract

"A circular wing aircraft in the form of a helicopter comprising a fuselage and a circular wing assembly. A structure is for mounting the circular wing assembly above the fuselage in a stationary manner. An air impeller unit is rotatively carried within the circular wing assembly. A device is for driving the air impeller unit to rotate about a central axis within the circular wing assembly, so as to provide lift and flight movement while yaw control is maintained."

Fred

 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 07:32:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AFUALC030356; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:32:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AFIkPj025751; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:18:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:18:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:42:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > And it's also very different from what Mizuno did in similar > circumstances. Whether Scott's right or wrong in his assessment of > Mizuno's work, he got a reasonable amount of help, including the cathode > he used in at least one run, from Mizuno's lab. > > In short, Mizuno acts like a researcher who's trying to track down the > workings of an interesting effect. Mills at BLP, on the other hand, seems > to act like he has something to hide. It's unfortunate. Huh? Just how does Mills' massive book, dozens of detailed experimental reports, and journal papers add up to acting like "he has something to hide"? Compared to comparable R&D efforts, his disclosure is massive and unprecedented. He is following a coherent commercial development strategy designed to protect the investments of his investors. He discloses in quantity to establish a "reduction to practice" for patent purposes and cooperates with those who wish to partner in commercial development, with BLP serving as a license laboratory. He is not disclosing "know how" to optimize and scale up the reactions to commercial viability. Mills has been chastized by critics for revisions to his book and various experimental reports, acting like Mizuno "who's trying to track down the workins of an interesting effect". Mills is assisted by a staff of PhDs who do the lab work. Mizune is essentially working by himself on a shoestring budget, doing very good work. > > Equally unfortunate, IMHO, is the fact that Scott didn't fly to Japan > (with a few meters stuffed in a bag) to observe one of Mizuno's successful > runs first hand, and determine for himself whether Mizuno's voltage and > current measurements and cooling curve determinations were up to snuff -- > but that's another story.. Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few meteres stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd power meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. I have seen no evidence that Eartth Tech has these instruments, which Naudin has used. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 07:57:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AFuhJ0014391; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:56:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AFueJb014356; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:56:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105317.034656c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:56:16 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Note in Table 3 (page 10) the highest tritium production is in the >experiments having Ni anodes. Ni is an oxide forming metal and can >be conditioned like Zn or Al. Too bad there is no data on anode area. We may be able to get that information from Srinivasan. He can be reached at chino37@gmail.com. He is presently overrun (or overwhelmed) by visiting grandchildren, but he says he will be back in communication "in a few weeks." I am hoping he will write a postscript to the paper. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 08:09:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AG8OmN022675; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:08:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AG8KXf022582; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:08:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:08:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QDepUZzM/Vl6ezrve09ttctGr06/sybucWa0s4nNrUUS+BZ1RN6oFqQVG3VzDYSV2HfprFD60P228tkPnk4GkYUXMNpurgBa9/yNOLzM2Rs2uGvpNFQvh3FQojRCYkY8AEouW6nXRdvK2I1JeIS8zVqdPov3EAUeicL3Geb4VHg= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:08:03 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Has Physics Gone Nuts? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AD34736@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30518_28580513.1136909283808" References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AD34736@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30518_28580513.1136909283808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline i think leon lederman put it best. In The God Particle, he outlined the tw= o distinct schools that have developed, the theorist and the experimenter. there are those that come up with the math, the theory, and then those that get up and actually do it. it used to be one and the same, but its become = a split breed. and it seems to me we have WAY too many theorists and not enough experimenters. On 1/10/06, Zell, Chris wrote: > > Forgive this rant, but I couldn't resist. > > I came across a paper called "Alteration of Nuclear Beta Decay by > Non-Nuclear Strong Fields" ( Laser Physics Vol. 9 No.1 1999 pp. 92-97) > > It asserts that beta decay in radioactive elements could be triggered by > external applied EMF - and that this could be a powerful new energy > source! > "Were it possible, accelerated decay of highly forbidden beta decay > materials would be the ideal long-term energy source" > > The study is one of many that have appeared over the years, done by > H.R. Reiss of the American University. It uses arcane and complex > mathematics > to make it's point. > > So, lemme get this straight, as an outside observer: The year is 1999 > and the issue of the radioactive constant, independent of all outside > influences > STILL HASN'T BEEN SETTLED? You mean that there is no body of > experimental results as yet to settle the issue? ( "Yup, I got my Tesla > Coil > and diathermy machine and some radium needles and put this theory to > bed") > > Is physical reality solely determined by mathematics? Is that the sole > determinant of truth these days? Is this reasonable especially if such > beta decay > Is triggered by events in the quantum realm - which could be purely > arbitrary? Yes, statistical analysis works - but the quantum arena > ultimately "just is" > as argued by Victor Stenger in Decoherence theory ( a skeptics answer to > non locality). Who knows - until somebody actually DOES THE EXPERIMENTS > and STOPS ARGUING ABOUT MATH ACROSS DECADES OF TIME! > > If I was a Creationist, I'd jump on this like a hungry lion on a > gazelle. Whether it works or not is hardly the point ( although it > would be wonderful if it > did!) - what's happened to physics these days? Has it gone nuts? > > OK, I feel better now. Rant over. > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_30518_28580513.1136909283808 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline i think leon lederman put it best.  In The God Particle, he outlined t= he two distinct schools that have developed, the theorist and the experimen= ter.  there are those that come up with the math, the theory, and then= those that get up and actually do it.  it used to be one and the same= , but its become a split breed.  and it seems to me we have WAY too ma= ny theorists and not enough experimenters.=20

On 1/10/06, = Zell, Chris <ChrisZell= @clearchannel.com> wrote:
Forgive this rant, but I couldn'= t resist.

I came across a paper called  "Alteration o= f Nuclear Beta Decay by
Non-Nuclear Strong Fields"  ( Laser Physics Vol. 9 No.1 = 1999 pp. 92-97)

It asserts that beta decay in radioactive elements c= ould be triggered by
external applied EMF - and that this could be a pow= erful new energy
source!
"Were it possible, accelerated decay of highly forbidde= n beta decay
materials would be the ideal long-term energy source"<= br>
The study is one of many that have appeared over the years, &nb= sp;done by
H.R. Reiss of the American University.  It uses arcane and co= mplex
mathematics
to make it's point.

So, lemme get this strai= ght, as an outside observer:  The year is 1999
and the issue o= f the radioactive constant, independent of all outside
influences
STILL HASN'T BEEN SETTLED?  You mean that there= is no body of
experimental results as yet to settle the issue? ( "= Yup, I got my Tesla
Coil
and diathermy machine and some radium needle= s and put this theory to
bed")

Is physical reality solely determined by mathematics?=   Is that the sole
determinant of truth these days?  = ;Is this reasonable especially if such
beta decay
Is triggered by eve= nts in the quantum realm - which could be purely
arbitrary?  Yes, statistical analysis works - but the quantum= arena
ultimately "just is"
as argued by Victor Stenger in = Decoherence theory ( a skeptics answer to
non locality).  Who = knows - until somebody actually DOES THE EXPERIMENTS
and STOPS ARGUING ABOUT MATH ACROSS DECADES OF TIME!

If I was a = Creationist, I'd jump on this like a hungry lion on a
gazelle. &nbs= p;Whether it works or not is hardly the point ( although it
would be won= derful if it
did!) - what's happened to physics these days?  Has it gone n= uts?

OK, I feel better now.  Rant over.




--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest = what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to con= tinue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_30518_28580513.1136909283808-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 08:16:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AGGAbV030145; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:16:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AGFDNd029507; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:15:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:15:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3DC24.30900@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:09:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4c-XoD.A.yMH.Q29wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > >> And it's also very different from what Mizuno did in similar >> circumstances. Whether Scott's right or wrong in his assessment of >> Mizuno's work, he got a reasonable amount of help, including the cathode >> he used in at least one run, from Mizuno's lab. >> >> In short, Mizuno acts like a researcher who's trying to track down the >> workings of an interesting effect. Mills at BLP, on the other hand, >> seems >> to act like he has something to hide. It's unfortunate. > > > Huh? Just how does Mills' massive book, dozens of detailed experimental > reports, and journal papers add up to acting like "he has something to > hide"? Compared to comparable R&D efforts, his disclosure is massive and > unprecedented. He is following a coherent commercial development strategy > designed to protect the investments of his investors. He discloses in > quantity to establish a "reduction to practice" for patent purposes and > cooperates with those who wish to partner in commercial development, with > BLP serving as a license laboratory. He is not disclosing "know how" to > optimize and scale up the reactions to commercial viability. > > Mills has been chastized by critics for revisions to his book and various > experimental reports, acting like Mizuno "who's trying to track down the > workins of an interesting effect". Mills is assisted by a staff of PhDs who > do the lab work. Mizune is essentially working by himself on a shoestring > budget, doing very good work. > >> >> Equally unfortunate, IMHO, is the fact that Scott didn't fly to Japan >> (with a few meters stuffed in a bag) to observe one of Mizuno's >> successful >> runs first hand, and determine for himself whether Mizuno's voltage and >> current measurements and cooling curve determinations were up to snuff -- >> but that's another story.. > > > Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as > Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few meteres > stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd power > meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. I have seen no evidence > that Eartth Tech has these instruments, which Naudin has used. Does Mizuno's lab have such instruments? This is something I've wondered about, a little, with regard to Ohmori as well -- if Ohmori's doing work which requires measurement of very noisy input power levels, and, as Jed says, he's using instruments which date from the early 20th century, how can he know how much power is going into the cells? In Little's third series of "Mizuno runs", trials four and five, in which he was trying to duplicate Mizuno's results, he apparently used the same calorimetry and general cell design as Mizuno. His results showed a pretty clean zero in run 4 (168,000 joules out, 167,000 joules in, difference < 1%), and a complete failure to boil in run 5 (consistent with input power being less than output power), which suggests that, despite the noisy nature of the input current and voltage, his _measurements_ were correct (odds of a bogus meter reading showing power-in == power-out in run 4 would seem to be pretty low -- you'd expect to see either excess power or an unexplained power loss in such a case, and in run 5, the lack of boiling was consistent with the meter readings). Obviously lots of other things could have been wrong, including the possible use of a steel anode in place of platinum (quoting Jed, in old email -- dunno for sure what anode Little was using on those runs). If he'd packed up his meters (which appear to be portable) and taken them to Japan and observed a successful run in Mizuno's lab, it would have at least made it pretty clear whether it was something going on inside the cell or something going on with the measurements which made his results come out differently. Please understand, this is a kind of "Gee I wish..." thing rather than a criticism of anyone. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:01:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH0DMK019136; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:00:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AH0BKO019103; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC4691872FF@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Has Physics Gone Nuts? Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:54:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0AH00g2018987 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a gift to doing physics. The best people at present are those trained in electrical engineering and cross over (Dirac, Feynman?) or the applied physicists. Farooq Abdullah who used to teach me taught his daughter electromagnetism as she studied for her maths degree. I remember what he said to me was the impression she gave of, "is that it" when she saw Maxwell's equations. Too many mathematicians work this way, ok pure maths I can't do so I'll do applied which makes me a physicist. (The physicists then want to become engineers and the engineers get relegated to lowly technicians). The truth of the matter is that the composition of a physicist is: Part Experimenter/Engineer/Inventor Part Mathematician Part Philosopher Part Artist (a sense of beauty and economy which applies to the other three) People have a different make up but the current fashion is the mathematical physicist, hence the vogue for talking any nonsense (11 dimensional space, imaginary time, negative mass/energy). Faraday: Experimenter/Philosopher Gauss: Mathematician/Experimenter? Einstein: Philosopher/Mathematician Fermi: Mathematician/Experimenter equal measure And loads more. I was talking to colleagues at lunch a week ago and we reckon its all part of middle class snobbery. Oxbridge didn't consider the natural sciences worthy of study until about 500 years ago, I think and they still award BA, MAs. Engineering was frowned upon up to about 150 years ago as not being worthy of academic status hence all the 'stone' technical institutes that are now well "traditional" universities. So in this country we have a kind of food chain of unis. Oxbridge Ivy League 'Stone buildings': Imperial, UMIST charter around turn of last century or before 'Redbrick or cast concrete' unis: late 50s, 60s 'White tile': Polys cum unis created by Prime-minister Major (remember him?). (Trouble is all the b.llsh.t 'degree' courses such as hairdressing (BTrim), golf management (BSwing). They need to stamp this out.) You see the more refined the appearance of a subject, the more mathematical, philosophical and high faluting the posher it is. And then you get to have posh dinners with influential upper middle class people going and ah yeah, ah yeah, lah di dah I read Kant and he said such and such and I read a treatise on post modernism and we are all doomed... ________________________________________ From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen Sent: 10 January 2006 16:08 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Has Physics Gone Nuts? i think leon lederman put it best.  In The God Particle, he outlined the two distinct schools that have developed, the theorist and the experimenter.  there are those that come up with the math, the theory, and then those that get up and actually do it.  it used to be one and the same, but its become a split breed.  and it seems to me we have WAY too many theorists and not enough experimenters. On 1/10/06, Zell, Chris wrote: Forgive this rant, but I couldn't resist. I came across a paper called  "Alteration of Nuclear Beta Decay by Non-Nuclear Strong Fields"  ( Laser Physics Vol. 9 No.1 1999 pp. 92-97) It asserts that beta decay in radioactive elements could be triggered by external applied EMF - and that this could be a powerful new energy source! "Were it possible, accelerated decay of highly forbidden beta decay materials would be the ideal long-term energy source" The study is one of many that have appeared over the years,  done by H.R. Reiss of the American University.  It uses arcane and complex mathematics to make it's point. So, lemme get this straight, as an outside observer:  The year is 1999 and the issue of the radioactive constant, independent of all outside influences STILL HASN'T BEEN SETTLED?  You mean that there is no body of experimental results as yet to settle the issue? ( "Yup, I got my Tesla Coil and diathermy machine and some radium needles and put this theory to bed") Is physical reality solely determined by mathematics?  Is that the sole determinant of truth these days?  Is this reasonable especially if such beta decay Is triggered by events in the quantum realm - which could be purely arbitrary?  Yes, statistical analysis works - but the quantum arena ultimately "just is" as argued by Victor Stenger in Decoherence theory ( a skeptics answer to non locality).  Who knows - until somebody actually DOES THE EXPERIMENTS and STOPS ARGUING ABOUT MATH ACROSS DECADES OF TIME! If I was a Creationist, I'd jump on this like a hungry lion on a gazelle.  Whether it works or not is hardly the point ( although it would be wonderful if it did!) - what's happened to physics these days?  Has it gone nuts? OK, I feel better now.  Rant over. -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write"  Voltaire From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:08:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH88Ae024645; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:08:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AH84ar024612; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:08:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:08:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Some Interesting Mutiphysics Stuff Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:07:54 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c61608$66bc1730$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thought I would share... http://www.comsol.com/showroom/ http://www.comsol.com/conference2005/cd/ -john From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:41:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH2A35020630; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:40:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AGxIlJ018472; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:59:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:59:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:58:59 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When deuterium is loaded into the Pd lattice during electrolysis is it in the atomic or molecular state? Assuming atomic, is the radius for atomic deuterium different from atomic protium? Does the presence of the neutron in deuterium somehow weaken the coloumb barrier? In other words, why does deuterium fuse in Pd but not protium? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:41:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH2A37020630; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:40:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AGuue0017278; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:56:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02b701c61606$d8be1ab0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105317.034656c0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:56:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > We may be able to get that information from Srinivasan. He can > be reached at chino37@gmail.com. He is presently overrun (or > overwhelmed) by visiting grandchildren, but he says he will be > back in communication "in a few weeks." I am hoping he will > write a postscript to the paper. I hope he has time to respond. This was an excellent paper, especially considering the time frame in which it was written. It is almost incomprehensible that not a single one out of this very broad range of international efforts has yet reached a reliable prototype stage, somewhere on the planet. I almost half-expect at any time that some little known company in Finland, or East Moldavia, or somewhere unexpected, will suddenly hit the market with a real LENR product - to the surprise of all the experts in the US. ... dream on ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:41:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH2A39020630; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:41:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AGlKpO012940; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:47:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02ac01c61605$828268f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43BD5D85.2050503@pobox.com> <44997092-C811-4CD7-92D3-91DE2BB3864B@mtaonline.net> <43BD84DD.4090501@pobox.com> <0DE312DB-33EB-4F84-BBBA-D25D58422B8C@mtaonline.net> <43BF2988.6080207@pobox.com> <00ec01c6157d$703366f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:47:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_rPmKC.A.EKD.YU-wDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HH wrote: >> BTW the main cosmological frequencies used to spot water are >> the H2O vapor absorption peaks at around 180 GHz and 320 GHz >> and there is also strong microwave absorption of water at >> around 22 GHz. This later one is not a simple rotational >> transition but it is the most used by cosmologists, I have >> read, as the others are out of range of inexpensive precision >> instrumentation. > That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. Probably along the lines of the famous 1420 MHz line of neutral hydrogen, which is also not related to a macro rotational transition per se, but to ortho-para nuclear spin transitions. As for a reference for the RF-astronomy lines, I had written to Prof. Chapin some time ago about the lack of this data on his fine site - which is by far the best resource for water information on the web... maybe he has updated this but I did a google search just now for "22 GHz" water resonance, and it turns up over 400 hits including this one (but not his), with a graph showing some of the overlapping peaks of H2O and O2: http://ceos.cnes.fr:8100/cdrom-98/ceos1/science/dg/dg19.htm I think the really neat experimental thing in this regard would be to try to treat water vapor, especially water vapor carrying free electrons (or ions), with two or more different microwave frequencies, each tailored to the components (i.e. especially resonant w/the proton and the -OH, the O and the whole molecule) in order to encourage splitting-off of the proton - which mother-nature has made conveniently 'free' 25% of the time at the attosecond time frame, consequently only speed of light waves would be effective to exploit this time frame. This is somewhat along the lines of what Holraum (sic) and I are hoping that Richard Macaulay is able to do with his liquid water vortex tube, which has the added ability to inhibit recombination with centrifugal/centripetal force, which is the obvious problem with most of these schemes (immediate recombination). If he is successful with either the 2.45 GHz alone or paired together for a beat wave, he may be an order of magnitude better off using overlapping specific frequencies - such as 22 in tandem with 1.64 (for the hydroxyl). Steam might work better than liquid water, but get this: The interesting thing is that if you get more hydrogen out than the microwave energy put in, using water in a vortex tube - and assuming ZPE does not come into play, then you will extract a lot of heat from the water, which cooling effect also has a high economic benefit for summer air conditioning. And I think that Richard will confirm that this may be more valuable in Texas than the hydrogen. Imagine an air conditioning unit which is almost self-powered, from splitting and reusing the hydrogen it produces. Jones ...and Richard, don't forget who suggested this "Round Hill AC" unit IF it should turn into a financial windfall when you get Carrier & Co. into the picture ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 09:41:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AH2A3B020630; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:41:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AGvmgU017708; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:57:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:57:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3E5CB.5030202@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:50:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <43C3DC24.30900@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43C3DC24.30900@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> >> >>> And it's also very different from what Mizuno did in similar >>> circumstances. Whether Scott's right or wrong in his assessment of >>> Mizuno's work, he got a reasonable amount of help, including the cathode >>> he used in at least one run, from Mizuno's lab. >>> >>> In short, Mizuno acts like a researcher who's trying to track down the >>> workings of an interesting effect. Mills at BLP, on the other hand, >>> seems >>> to act like he has something to hide. It's unfortunate. >> >> >> >> Huh? Just how does Mills' massive book, dozens of detailed experimental >> reports, and journal papers add up to acting like "he has something to >> hide"? Compared to comparable R&D efforts, his disclosure is massive and >> unprecedented. He is following a coherent commercial development strategy >> designed to protect the investments of his investors. He discloses in >> quantity to establish a "reduction to practice" for patent purposes and >> cooperates with those who wish to partner in commercial development, with >> BLP serving as a license laboratory. He is not disclosing "know how" to >> optimize and scale up the reactions to commercial viability. >> >> Mills has been chastized by critics for revisions to his book and various >> experimental reports, acting like Mizuno "who's trying to track down the >> workins of an interesting effect". Mills is assisted by a staff of >> PhDs who >> do the lab work. Mizune is essentially working by himself on a shoestring >> budget, doing very good work. >> >>> >>> Equally unfortunate, IMHO, is the fact that Scott didn't fly to Japan >>> (with a few meters stuffed in a bag) to observe one of Mizuno's >>> successful >>> runs first hand, and determine for himself whether Mizuno's voltage and >>> current measurements and cooling curve determinations were up to >>> snuff -- >>> but that's another story.. >> >> >> >> Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as >> Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few >> meteres >> stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd >> power >> meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. I have seen no evidence >> that Eartth Tech has these instruments, which Naudin has used. > > > Does Mizuno's lab have such instruments? > > This is something I've wondered about, a little, with regard to Ohmori > as well -- if Ohmori's doing work which requires measurement of very > noisy input power levels, and, as Jed says, he's using instruments which > date from the early 20th century, how can he know how much power is > going into the cells? > > In Little's third series of "Mizuno runs", BTW during the Mills electrolysis runs and during the Mizuno runs, Little was using a "Clarke-Hess 2330 Power Analyzer" on which he seemed to depend to get his power input measurements. He also used a Fluke true-rms current meter, which, he says at one point, was _apparently_ not true-rms in DC mode: he found it was apparently reading average rather than RMS current during at least one run on the Mizuno experiments. (That determination was made by comparing its reading with the Clarke-Hess readings, from which I conclude that he was using the CH meter as his "gold standard".) I have no idea if the Clarke-Hess meter can be depended on to produce accurate readings with very noisy input. > trials four and five, in > which he was trying to duplicate Mizuno's results, he apparently used > the same calorimetry and general cell design as Mizuno. His results > showed a pretty clean zero in run 4 (168,000 joules out, 167,000 joules > in, difference < 1%), and a complete failure to boil in run 5 > (consistent with input power being less than output power), which > suggests that, despite the noisy nature of the input current and > voltage, his _measurements_ were correct (odds of a bogus meter reading > showing power-in == power-out in run 4 would seem to be pretty low -- > you'd expect to see either excess power or an unexplained power loss in > such a case, and in run 5, the lack of boiling was consistent with the > meter readings). > > Obviously lots of other things could have been wrong, including the > possible use of a steel anode in place of platinum (quoting Jed, in old > email -- dunno for sure what anode Little was using on those runs). If > he'd packed up his meters (which appear to be portable) and taken them > to Japan and observed a successful run in Mizuno's lab, it would have at > least made it pretty clear whether it was something going on inside the > cell or something going on with the measurements which made his results > come out differently. > > Please understand, this is a kind of "Gee I wish..." thing rather than a > criticism of anyone. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:00:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AIxr70013558; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:59:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AIoZxA009333; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:50:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:50:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110175723359.08C07C40008D@mwinf3216.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110175723.00a28794@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:57:23 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Has Physics Gone Nuts? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:08 am 10/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >i think leon lederman put it best. In The God Particle, he outlined the two >distinct schools that have developed, the theorist and the experimenter. >there are those that come up with the math, the theory, and then those that >get up and actually do it. it used to be one and the same, but its become a >split breed. and it seems to me we have WAY too many theorists and not >enough experimenters. That's because it's a damned sight easier to theorise than experiment. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:11:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJB3Lb019104; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:11:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJAqqr018965; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:10:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:10:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:08:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110130411.03487818@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Think hundreds of dollars. Perhaps cold fusion should first be made to work as a toy. Kids and their toys tend to scale up together. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> It is almost incomprehensible that not a single one out of this very >> broad range of international efforts has yet reached a reliable >> prototype stage, somewhere on the planet. > > I do not find this at all surprising. Nearly all of the efforts > described in this paper were operating on a shoestring in 1990, and > they were crushed within a few years by skeptical opposition. The > researchers all retired or died. Developing any one of these > techniques would have cost millions of dollars, and there were not > even thousands of dollars available. > > >> I almost half-expect at any time that some little known company in >> Finland, or East Moldavia, or somewhere unexpected, will suddenly >> hit the market with a real LENR product - to the surprise of all the >> experts in the US. > > I think this scenario is very unlikely. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:14:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJ352P015170; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:13:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AI7Os0027534; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:07:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:07:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110130411.03487818@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:07:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review In-Reply-To: <02b701c61606$d8be1ab0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105317.034656c0@mindspring.com> <02b701c61606$d8be1ab0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >It is almost incomprehensible that not a single one out of this very >broad range of international efforts has yet reached a reliable >prototype stage, somewhere on the planet. I do not find this at all surprising. Nearly all of the efforts described in this paper were operating on a shoestring in 1990, and they were crushed within a few years by skeptical opposition. The researchers all retired or died. Developing any one of these techniques would have cost millions of dollars, and there were not even thousands of dollars available. >I almost half-expect at any time that some little known company in >Finland, or East Moldavia, or somewhere unexpected, will suddenly >hit the market with a real LENR product - to the surprise of all the >experts in the US. I think this scenario is very unlikely. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:14:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJ352R015170; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:13:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AIQwDk032504; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:26:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:26:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3FC21.6030007@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:25:37 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Has Physics Gone Nuts? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AD34736@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AD34736@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes Chris, physics has gone nuts. It has been taken over by people who believe the imagined world is more important than is the real world. Actually, the more I see how the real world is degenerating, the imagined world is looking better all the time. Ed Zell, Chris wrote: > Forgive this rant, but I couldn't resist. > > I came across a paper called "Alteration of Nuclear Beta Decay by > Non-Nuclear Strong Fields" ( Laser Physics Vol. 9 No.1 1999 pp. 92-97) > > It asserts that beta decay in radioactive elements could be triggered by > external applied EMF - and that this could be a powerful new energy > source! > "Were it possible, accelerated decay of highly forbidden beta decay > materials would be the ideal long-term energy source" > > The study is one of many that have appeared over the years, done by > H.R. Reiss of the American University. It uses arcane and complex > mathematics > to make it's point. > > So, lemme get this straight, as an outside observer: The year is 1999 > and the issue of the radioactive constant, independent of all outside > influences > STILL HASN'T BEEN SETTLED? You mean that there is no body of > experimental results as yet to settle the issue? ( "Yup, I got my Tesla > Coil > and diathermy machine and some radium needles and put this theory to > bed") > > Is physical reality solely determined by mathematics? Is that the sole > determinant of truth these days? Is this reasonable especially if such > beta decay > Is triggered by events in the quantum realm - which could be purely > arbitrary? Yes, statistical analysis works - but the quantum arena > ultimately "just is" > as argued by Victor Stenger in Decoherence theory ( a skeptics answer to > non locality). Who knows - until somebody actually DOES THE EXPERIMENTS > and STOPS ARGUING ABOUT MATH ACROSS DECADES OF TIME! > > If I was a Creationist, I'd jump on this like a hungry lion on a > gazelle. Whether it works or not is hardly the point ( although it > would be wonderful if it > did!) - what's happened to physics these days? Has it gone nuts? > > OK, I feel better now. Rant over. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:14:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJ352T015170; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:14:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AHkW3N017985; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:46:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3F2E4.7020101@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:46:12 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > >> And it's also very different from what Mizuno did in similar >> circumstances. Whether Scott's right or wrong in his assessment of >> Mizuno's work, he got a reasonable amount of help, including the cathode >> he used in at least one run, from Mizuno's lab. >> >> In short, Mizuno acts like a researcher who's trying to track down the >> workings of an interesting effect. Mills at BLP, on the other hand, >> seems >> to act like he has something to hide. It's unfortunate. > > > Huh? Just how does Mills' massive book, dozens of detailed experimental > reports, and journal papers add up to acting like "he has something to > hide"? Compared to comparable R&D efforts, his disclosure is massive and > unprecedented. He is following a coherent commercial development strategy > designed to protect the investments of his investors. He discloses in > quantity to establish a "reduction to practice" for patent purposes and > cooperates with those who wish to partner in commercial development, with > BLP serving as a license laboratory. He is not disclosing "know how" to > optimize and scale up the reactions to commercial viability. > > Mills has been chastized by critics for revisions to his book and various > experimental reports, acting like Mizuno "who's trying to track down the > workins of an interesting effect". Mills is assisted by a staff of PhDs who > do the lab work. Mizune is essentially working by himself on a shoestring > budget, doing very good work. > >> >> Equally unfortunate, IMHO, is the fact that Scott didn't fly to Japan >> (with a few meters stuffed in a bag) to observe one of Mizuno's >> successful >> runs first hand, and determine for himself whether Mizuno's voltage and >> current measurements and cooling curve determinations were up to snuff -- >> but that's another story.. > > > Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as > Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few meteres > stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd power > meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. I have seen no evidence > that Earth Tech has these instruments I googled the Clarke-Hess 2330 meter which Little used in the Mills electrolysis and Mizuno incandescent-cathode experiments. Here's a quote from a fly sheet on the Clarke-Hess web site: > UNPARALLELED HIGH FREQUENCY ACCURACY > The Model 2330 watt meter allows broadband and high accuracy > measurements of both sinusoidal and highly distorted wave shapes. The > Current, Voltage, Power, and Power Factor accuracies to 400kHz of the > Model 2330 far exceed any other sampling Volt-Ampere-Watt Meter, or > for that matter, with respect to Current or Voltage, almost all > conventional multimeters. Although reduced by a factor of two, > excellent accuracy is maintained to 600kHz. It sounds good on paper, at least. "Stuffing it into a bag" would require a rather big bag, 'tis true. It can apparently operate standalone and integrate the power measurement for up to 99 hours, so an external computer rig wouldn't be absolutely necessary if one wanted to carry it to another lab to check someone else's experiment. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:17:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJGlKu022111; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:16:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJGNTi021919; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:16:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:16:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:15:09 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E4314ECCE342-16C0-142D@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0AJGGd7021819 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh my! We'll soon find out in the premier episode of: HYDRINO MEETS THE BETA-ATMOSPHERE sponsored by Mr Fusion®, fuel of choice for TARDIS everywhere(when)! (You don't have to join to read Dr. Randell Mills' SCME yahoo group.) -----Original Message----- From: Grimer Hohlraum sed re: Society for Classcial Quantum Mechanics: > S(c)eptics and crackpots not allowed! To which Mr. Grimer replied: I would have thought that restriction severely reduces the gene pool of candidates for admission. I'm just wondering how the moderators might classify me. 8-( ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:34:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJW3B1030401; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:34:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJA5fS018491; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:10:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:07:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <4ARJZD.A.kgE.KaAxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feel free to take the following comments as fully uninformed! I don't have references handy, and this is off the top of my head. Corrections expected! On Jan 10, 2006, at 7:58 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > When deuterium is loaded into the Pd lattice during electrolysis is > it in the atomic or molecular state? The best answer is neither. The hydrogen state fluctuates as diffusion occurs between lattice sites, and the probability of a given state varies with the degree of loading. Loaded hydrogen was at one time generally considered to be in an ionic state, but that is not a complete answer either. The ionic state is one in which the proton migrates freely and an associated electron is dragged along with it in the conduction bands. However, single protons or deuterons in the atomic state do not fit in the Pd lattice. Therefore, they have to either be in a H2 or D2 molecular state, which is possible in one position in the lattice with only a few percent increase in lattice size (which occurs) or in a partial orbital state, which also causes lattice size increase if it is highly loaded. The partial orbital state is one in which sub- orbitals exist in the vicinity of the hydrogen nucleus. The associated electron in such a state has a two fold existence, with mixed probabilities of being found in either the conduction band or in the orbital. The probability of being in the conduction band increases with higher loading, as does the pressure the partial orbital puts on the lattice. The partial orbital can transmit force just like a full orbital that is stressed, but the force is larger. The approximate lattice structure of various prospective cathode materials, based on some simple geometry, not QM modeling, was described in . > > Assuming atomic, is the radius for atomic deuterium different from > atomic protium? The orbitals (orbital clouds) for the two differ close up to the nucleus due to differing magnetic effects. Hydrogen and deuterium have differing orbital mechanics, which can be seen chemically in the way they affect protein structures, for example. The radius is not significantly different with regard to diffusion. > > Does the presence of the neutron in deuterium somehow weaken the > coloumb barrier? On the contrary, the extra neutron reduces the probability of tunneling at a given internuclear distance. The deBroglie wavelength is reduced in size. However, for momentum based reactions the doubled mass of the deuterium helps to get it closer and to stay closer longer to a given reaction distance at a given initial relative velocity. > > In other words, why does deuterium fuse in Pd but not protium? One of the best answers to this is the cross section of the p + p reaction is very small because it requires (a) a weak reaction which always has a very small probability and (b) transmutation of a proton to a neutron, which requires extra energy. Further, if we assume the P + P reaction is due to electron catalysis, thus creating a de-energized product, what experiment is going to see the reaction product? There will be no clearly visible energy signature, and the ash, D2, will be hard to find. D2 in water is just hay in haystack. I hope these comments are useful, at least as food for thought. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:35:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJW3Ax030401; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:33:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJRJX6027107; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:27:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:27:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:25:01 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E432AF57EE2C-16C0-148A@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060109021547.00a1b154@pop.freeserve.net> <8C7E4314ECCE342-16C0-142D@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E4314ECCE342-16C0-142D@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <0IPYjC.A.OnG.UqAxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: that should say 'SCQM' Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scqm/ -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d (You don't have to join to read Dr. Randell Mills' SCME yahoo group.) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:39:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJceDt001722; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:38:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJbI90001029; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:37:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:37:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <22C845F9-F930-4F9F-8C7A-A8AECE4B95D6@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:31:07 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feel free to take the following comments as fully uninformed! I don't have references handy, and this is off the top of my head. Corrections expected! On Jan 10, 2006, at 7:58 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > When deuterium is loaded into the Pd lattice during electrolysis is > it in the atomic or molecular state? The best answer is neither. The hydrogen state fluctuates as diffusion occurs between lattice sites, and the probability of a given state varies with the degree of loading. Loaded hydrogen was at one time generally considered to be in an ionic state, but that is not a complete answer either. The ionic state is one in which the proton migrates freely and an associated electron is dragged along with it in the conduction bands. However, single protons or deuterons in the atomic state do not fit in the Pd lattice. Therefore, they have to either be in a H2 or D2 molecular state, which is possible in one position in the lattice with only a few percent increase in lattice size (which occurs) or in a partial orbital state, which also causes lattice size increase if it is highly loaded. The partial orbital state is one in which sub- orbitals exist in the vicinity of the hydrogen nucleus. The associated electron in such a state has a two fold existence, with mixed probabilities of being found in either the conduction band or in the orbital. The probability of being in the conduction band increases with higher loading, as does the pressure the partial orbital puts on the lattice. The partial orbital can transmit force just like a full orbital that is stressed, but the force is larger. The approximate lattice structure of various prospective cathode materials, based on some simple geometry, not QM modeling, was described in . > > Assuming atomic, is the radius for atomic deuterium different from > atomic protium? The orbitals (orbital clouds) for the two differ close up to the nucleus due to differing magnetic effects. Hydrogen and deuterium have differing orbital mechanics, which can be seen chemically in the way they affect protein structures, for example. The radius is not significantly different with regard to diffusion. > > Does the presence of the neutron in deuterium somehow weaken the > coloumb barrier? On the contrary, the extra neutron reduces the probability of tunneling at a given internuclear distance. The deBroglie wavelength is reduced in size. However, for momentum based reactions the doubled mass of the deuterium helps to get it closer and to stay closer longer to a given reaction distance at a given initial relative velocity. > > In other words, why does deuterium fuse in Pd but not protium? One of the best answers to this is the cross section of the p + p reaction is very small because it requires (a) a weak reaction which always has a very small probability and (b) transmutation of a proton to a neutron, which requires extra energy. Further, if we assume the P + P reaction is due to electron catalysis, thus creating a de-energized product, what experiment is going to see the reaction product? There will be no clearly visible energy signature, and the ash, D2, will be hard to find. D2 in water is just hay in haystack. I hope these comments are useful, at least as food for thought. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 11:52:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AJqCc2009051; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:52:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJq3uo008938; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:52:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:52:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110130411.03487818@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105317.034656c0@mindspring.com> <02b701c61606$d8be1ab0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110130411.03487818@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5C7B48C0-3DFF-42B4-B36E-D11BBDDABDFD@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:49:52 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 10, 2006, at 9:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> I almost half-expect at any time that some little known company in >> Finland, or East Moldavia, or somewhere unexpected, will suddenly >> hit the market with a real LENR product - to the surprise of all >> the experts in the US. > > I think this scenario is very unlikely. > > - Jed > > And therein lies the reason for the surprise. 8^) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:06:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AK4F3e017066; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:05:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJXdGp031109; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:33:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:33:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110193304875.D59F8B00008D@mwinf3213.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110193305.00da5ef8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:33:05 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Has Physics Gone Nuts? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:54 pm 10/01/2006 -0000, Remi wrote: >There is a gift to doing physics. The best people at present are those >trained in electrical engineering and cross over (Dirac, Feynman?) or the >applied physicists. > >Farooq Abdullah who used to teach me taught his daughter electromagnetism as >she studied for her maths degree. I remember what he said to me was the >impression she gave of, "is that it" when she saw Maxwell's equations. > >Too many mathematicians work this way, ok pure maths I can't do so I'll do >applied which makes me a physicist. (The physicists then want to become >engineers and the engineers get relegated to lowly technicians). The truth >of the matter is that the composition of a physicist is: > >Part Experimenter/Engineer/Inventor >Part Mathematician >Part Philosopher >Part Artist (a sense of beauty and economy which applies to the other three) > >People have a different make up but the current fashion is the mathematical >physicist, hence the vogue for talking any nonsense (11 dimensional space, >imaginary time, negative mass/energy). > >Faraday: Experimenter/Philosopher >Gauss: Mathematician/Experimenter? >Einstein: Philosopher/Mathematician >Fermi: Mathematician/Experimenter equal measure > >And loads more. > >I was talking to colleagues at lunch a week ago and we reckon its all part >of middle class snobbery. Oxbridge didn't consider the natural sciences >worthy of study until about 500 years ago, I think and they still award BA, >MAs. Engineering was frowned upon up to about 150 years ago as not being >worthy of academic status hence all the 'stone' technical institutes that >are now well "traditional" universities. So in this country we have a kind >of food chain of unis. > >Oxbridge Ivy League >'Stone buildings': Imperial, UMIST charter around turn of last century or >before >'Redbrick or cast concrete' unis: late 50s, 60s >'White tile': Polys cum unis created by Prime-minister Major (remember >him?). (Trouble is all the b.llsh.t 'degree' courses such as hairdressing >(BTrim), golf management (BSwing). They need to stamp this out.) > >You see the more refined the appearance of a subject, the more mathematical, >philosophical and high faluting the posher it is. And then you get to have >posh dinners with influential upper middle class people going and ah yeah, >ah yeah, lah di dah I read Kant and he said such and such and I read a >treatise on post modernism and we are all doomed... Yep. That sums up the British scene pretty well, Remi. Them's my sentiments too. 8-) But as I said to my kids - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. The only trouble with badmouthing hairdressing and golf is that it does rather remind one of the Two Ronnies sketch - you know - the one that goes, "I look up to him - but I look down on him." ;-) I seem to remember that before the war there were a lot of Universities that took external degrees of the University of London, Exeter must have been one, cos my brother was rusticated and went off to bomb the Germans. I think there were only 4 colleges that set their own internal London degrees, UCL (the Godless Building in Gower street), KCL (the seminary in the strand) Imperial and QMC. After the war the Polytechnics also took the external London degrees. One was well advised to strive one's hardest to get into an internal college though, since once in, one's degree was effectively guaranteed. Any lecturer who was completely hopeless and couldn't teach for toffee virtually told you the questions in the lecture immediately prior to the exam so that his deficiencies would not become apparent. Funnily enough the best lecturer I ever had at Uni was one from Northampton Polytechnic (which, in spite of its name, is near the Angel, Islington in London). His lectures were an absolute model of clarity. Presumably they had to be or his Poly students would have all failed the external exam. His name was Mr Wilkins and he used to ride a bicycle. He died quite young of a heart attack - so much for the virtues of exercise. 8-( Eventually the Polys were rebadged as Unis. Northampton Poly became City University, Chelsea became Surrey, Acton Tech became Brunel and so on and so forth. I always remember going down to West Sussex University to visit Professor Laithwaite and see his gyro experiments. WSU were very pissed off that Brighton what's-its-name had stolen a march on them and transmogrified itself into Brighton University thus apparently upturning the prestige rankings in the eyes of those unfamiliar with the arcane nature of the British university system. I always think the most egregious example of this was Harrow Technical College which became Westminster University - the very dregs according to the rankings. However, anyone from abroad might easily get confused between Westminster School, a top flight public school (for the benefit of US readers "public" means private and very expensive.) Westminster Parliament, the seat of British Government, and Westminster University, which is the pits. Which one did you go to Remi? I do hope it wasn't Westminster or I shall feel terribly embarrassed. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:06:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AK4F3g017066; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:05:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AJdIkt002033; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:39:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105805.033af530@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110095907.0339a218@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:00:48 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3986171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3986171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [Prof. Kelves wrote to me as follows. My response is below] You seem to have misread my article. I never debunk cold fusion but refer only to the to the Cold Fusion episode in 1989 at the University of Utah. I did not characterize the episode as a case of fraud but as an example of scientific "misdeeds." Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all research in cold fusion since then. The events of 1989 were a low point in the presentation of putatively significant scientific results to both the world of science and the larger public. In March, the scientists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann announced in a press conference that in their laboratory at the University of Utah they had achieved at room temperature the type of nuclear-fusion reaction that fuels the sun and fires hydrogen bombs. This astonishing breakthrough contradicted the known laws of physics but promised a panacea for our ever-growing national need for an alternate source of energy, not to mention great wealth to those who developed it. Under instructions from President George H. W. Bush, the Department of Energy created an authoritative scientific panel to evaluate the claim, and the Utah legislature responded unanimously to the Utah's governor's offer to provide the researchers with five million dollars. Pons and Fleischman's initial published paper about their research lacked essential raw data and experimental details. When asked to supply their scientific colleagues with more information, they persistently refused. Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only guess at the apparatus they had used. Nevertheless, eventually, their particular claims were refuted both on theoretical and experimental grounds. This is the incident I referred to in my article and it has altogether nothing to do with research since in this field. Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear Prof. Kevles, Your statements about cold fusion are factually incorrect and scientifically absurd. Again let me suggest you review the peer-reviewed scientific literature before commenting on this subject. Let me point out some of your major errors. >Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all research in >cold fusion since then. All of the cold fusion research since 1989 is based on Fleischmann and Pons original work. Hundreds of papers reference their first paper. >This astonishing breakthrough contradicted the known laws of physics . . . This is apparently a matter of opinion. Julian Schwinger, Peter Hagelstein, Giuliano Preparata, Carlo Rubbia and other distinguished theoreticians believe that cold fusion can be explained by the known laws of physics. I suggest you review some of the theory papers and reviews. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchwingerJnuclearene.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphysica.pdf >. . . the Utah legislature responded unanimously to the Utah's >governor's offer to provide the researchers with five million dollars. This is correct, but you have missed the important part of the story. The state of Utah did establish a National Cold Fusion Institute, and this institute published a definitive series of papers proving that cold fusion produces tritium, neutrons and heat. See, for example: Will, F.G., K. Cedzynska, and D.C. Linton, Reproducible tritium generation in electrochemical cells employing palladium cathodes with high deuterium loading. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1993. 360: p. 161. See also: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGstudiesofe.pdf Conclusion: "Employing a hermetically sealed electrolytic cell and a volumetric measurement technique for the D:Pd ratio, we have developed a procedure to attain loading ratios close to unity. With such high loading ratios, tritium generation has been observed reproducibly in four out of four heavy water cells whereas none of the four light water controls showed tritium generation. Tritium enhancements up to a factor 52 were observed. . . ." >Pons and Fleischman's initial published paper about their research >lacked essential raw data and experimental details. Within months, dozens of groups replicated excess heat, tritium and neutrons. These groups could not have replicated if Fleischmann and Pons had not reported essential details. Not only did they report details, they supplied sample cathode material and hands on assistance to researchers in the U.S. Navy and elsewhere. (See Table 10 here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf.) By September 12, 1990, 92 groups in major laboratories reported replications. See: Will, F.G., Groups Reporting Cold Fusion Evidence. 1990, National Cold Fusion Institute: Salt Lake City, UT., http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGgroupsrepo.pdf >When asked to supply their scientific colleagues with more >information, they persistently refused. This is scurrilous, libelous, outrageous nonsense. >Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only >guess at the apparatus they had used. As Fleischmann pointed out in one of his early papers, the apparatus and calorimetric techniques they used were devised by J. P. Joule in the 1840s. They are well understood. >Nevertheless, eventually, their particular claims were refuted both >on theoretical and experimental grounds. Their claims have been replicated by hundreds of world-class laboratories, and thousands of papers about these replications have been published. You can read over 400 of these papers online, at http://lenr-canr.org. Evidently, you have not even bother to review a single one of these papers, despite their easy availability. This is irresponsible, and it is a violation of academic ethics and common sense. Your statement also makes no sense because the claims were experimental, not theoretical, so they cannot be refuted on theoretical grounds. When replicated high sigma experimental results conflict with theory, the experiment always trumps theory. That is fundamental to the scientific method. In any case, as I pointed out above many distinguished theorists believe they can explain the cold fusion effect without inventing any new physics. >This is the incident I referred to in my article and it has >altogether nothing to do with research since in this field. The incidents you refer to did not occur: you invented this account out of whole cloth, or you heard it as rumors from someone else. The experiments conducted by Fleischmann and Pons that were first revealed to the public in Utah in 1989 are the basis for all subsequent work in cold fusion, and every researcher in the field has acknowledged that fact. Sincerely, Jed Rothwell --=====================_3986171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [Prof. Kelves wrote to me as follows. My response is below]

You seem to have misread my article. I never debunk cold fusion but refer only to the to the Cold Fusion episode in 1989 at the University of Utah. I did not characterize the episode as a case of fraud but as an example of scientific "misdeeds." Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all
research in cold fusion since then.

The events of 1989 were a low point in the presentation of putatively significant scientific results to both the world of science and the larger public.  In March, the scientists Stanley Pons and Martin  Fleischmann announced in a press conference that in their laboratory at the University of Utah they had achieved at room temperature the type of nuclear-fusion reaction that fuels the sun and fires hydrogen bombs. This astonishing breakthrough contradicted the known laws of physics but promised a panacea
for our ever-growing national need for an alternate source of energy, not to mention great wealth to those who developed it. Under instructions from President George H. W. Bush, the Department of Energy created an authoritative scientific panel to evaluate the claim, and the Utah legislature responded unanimously to the Utah's governor's offer to provide the researchers with five million dollars. Pons and Fleischman's initial published paper about their research lacked essential raw data and experimental details. When asked to supply their scientific colleagues with more information, they persistently refused. Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only guess at the apparatus they had used.

Nevertheless, eventually, their particular claims were refuted both on theoretical and experimental grounds. This is the incident I referred to in my article and it has altogether nothing to do with research since in this field.

Bettyann Holtzmann Kevles

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear Prof. Kevles,

Your statements about cold fusion are factually incorrect and scientifically absurd. Again let me suggest you review the peer-reviewed scientific literature before commenting on this subject. Let me point out some of your major errors.

Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all research in cold fusion since then.

All of the cold fusion research since 1989 is based on Fleischmann and Pons original work. Hundreds of papers reference their first paper.


This astonishing breakthrough contradicted the known laws of physics . . .

This is apparently a matter of opinion. Julian Schwinger, Peter Hagelstein, Giuliano Preparata, Carlo Rubbia and other distinguished theoreticians believe that cold fusion can be explained by the known laws of physics. I suggest you review some of the theory papers and reviews. See, for example:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchwingerJnuclearene.pdf
 http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphysica.pdf


. . . the Utah legislature responded unanimously to the Utah's governor's offer to provide the researchers with five million dollars.

This is correct, but you have missed the important part of the story. The state of Utah did establish a National Cold Fusion Institute, and this institute published a definitive series of papers proving that cold fusion produces tritium, neutrons and heat. See, for example: Will, F.G., K. Cedzynska, and D.C. Linton, Reproducible tritium generation in electrochemical cells employing palladium cathodes with high deuterium loading. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1993. 360: p. 161. See also:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGstudiesofe.pdf

Conclusion: "Employing a hermetically sealed electrolytic cell and a volumetric measurement technique for the D:Pd ratio, we have developed a procedure to attain loading ratios close to unity. With such high loading ratios, tritium generation has been observed reproducibly in four out of four heavy water cells whereas none of the four light water controls showed tritium generation. Tritium enhancements up to a factor 52 were observed. . . ."


Pons and Fleischman's initial published paper about their research lacked essential raw data and experimental details.

Within months, dozens of groups replicated excess heat, tritium and neutrons. These groups could not have replicated if Fleischmann and Pons had not reported essential details. Not only did they report details, they supplied sample cathode material and hands on assistance to researchers in the U.S. Navy and elsewhere. (See Table 10 here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf.) By September 12, 1990, 92 groups in major laboratories reported replications. See: Will, F.G., Groups Reporting Cold Fusion Evidence. 1990, National Cold Fusion Institute: Salt Lake City, UT., http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGgroupsrepo.pdf


When asked to supply their scientific colleagues with more information, they persistently refused.

This is scurrilous, libelous, outrageous nonsense.


Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only guess at the apparatus they had used.

As Fleischmann pointed out in one of his early papers, the apparatus and calorimetric techniques they used were devised by J. P. Joule in the 1840s. They are well understood.


Nevertheless, eventually, their particular claims were refuted both on theoretical and experimental grounds.

Their claims have been replicated by hundreds of world-class laboratories, and thousands of papers about these replications have been published. You can read over 400 of these papers online, at http://lenr-canr.org . Evidently, you have not even bother to review a single one of these papers, despite their easy availability. This is irresponsible, and it is a violation of academic ethics and common sense.

Your statement also makes no sense because the claims were experimental, not theoretical, so they cannot be refuted on theoretical grounds. When replicated high sigma experimental results conflict with theory, the experiment always trumps theory. That is fundamental to the scientific method. In any case, as I pointed out above many distinguished theorists believe they can explain the cold fusion effect without inventing any new physics.


This is the incident I referred to in my article and it has altogether nothing to do with research since in this field.

The incidents you refer to did not occur: you invented this account out of whole cloth, or you heard it as rumors from someone else. The experiments conducted by Fleischmann and Pons that were first revealed to the public in Utah in 1989 are the basis for all subsequent work in cold fusion, and every researcher in the field has acknowledged that fact.

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell
--=====================_3986171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:17:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKGxIF026065; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:17:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKGpKN025923; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:16:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:16:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:15:50 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4ZFcgD.A.2UG.yYBxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [I sent this at 1:18 PM EST and never saw it come back from Vortex, so I'm resending it. Apologies if it arrives twice.] I dug around on Lenr-Canr.org and didn't find what I'm looking for, which may just mean I didn't dig very well. If anyone has a link I'd appreciate it. Here's a description of the experiment for which I'd like to find the paper: * * * I'm looking for a paper which describes the experiment Scott Little was attempting to duplicate in the fourth and fifth experiments in his third series of Mizuno replication runs (posted on his website). This used a tungsten cathode, operating at incandescence, in an open cell, with cooling curve measured to determine how fast the cell lost heat during the run, and weight before and after measured to determine how much heat was lost to evaporation. According to a data plot from Mizuno's lab which is posted on Scott Little's website (received by Little in email) the excess-heat signal during this experiment began _instantly_, with no loading or warm-up period. Furthermore, the protocol called for the cell to be operated at the boiling point. But, the total input power was substantially less than would be required to bring the cell to a boil or keep it there, unless there was substantial excess heat generated inside the cell, from the very beginning of the run. That seemed strange. In an earlier thread Mike Carrell pointed out: > Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as > Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few meteres > stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd power > meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very likely appear in the paper ... if I could find it.... and I'd also like to know more about the cell coming to a boil with 25 watts more going out through the cell walls than coming in as electrical power, and that info would surely be in the paper, too. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:28:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKRvqZ002407; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:27:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKRraF002362; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:27:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:27:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,351,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="2003323178:sNHT34380596" Message-ID: <12042555.1136914881448.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 9:41:21 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: TIME Article: (CF misprint) - The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See recent Time article: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1145236,00.html http://tinyurl.com/b2bde TITLE: The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King By MICHAEL D. LEMONICK Near the end of the article: "It wouldn't be the first time. In 1996 chemists from the University of Utah claimed they had discovered "cold fusion." They hadn't, it turned out, but a combination of ambition, fear of competition and pressure from the university led them to announce the discovery before they had any proof. ************ NOTE: Mr. Lemonick even got the date wrong (1996) - by ten years. Jed, I think it's time you might want to inform Mr. Lemonick of his mistakes. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:28:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKSIFB002553; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:28:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKSALF002507; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:28:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:28:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:26:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Has Physics Gone Nuts? In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20060110193305.00da5ef8@pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > At 04:54 pm 10/01/2006 -0000, Remi wrote: >> >> Too many mathematicians work this way, ok pure maths I can't do so I'll do >> applied which makes me a physicist. (The physicists then want to become >> engineers and the engineers get relegated to lowly technicians). The truth >> of the matter is that the composition of a physicist is: >> >> Part Experimenter/Engineer/Inventor >> Part Mathematician >> Part Philosopher >> Part Artist (a sense of beauty and economy which applies to the other three) Leonardo Da Vinci was all of the above. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:30:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKUQvl003504; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKUNrK003472; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:30:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:30:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601102021.k0AKL5jV041838@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:21:04 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: TIME Article (CF misprint) - The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_d84941ce77e561fe9faee9615284f4ae" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_d84941ce77e561fe9faee9615284f4ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See recent Time article: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1145236,00.html http://tinyurl.com/b2bde TITLE: The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King By MICHAEL D. LEMONICK Near the end of the article: "It wouldn't be the first time. In 1996 chemists from the University of Utah claimed they had discovered "cold fusion." They hadn't, it turned out, but a combination of ambition, fear of competition and pressure from the university led them to announce the discovery before they had any proof. ************ NOTE: Mr. Lemonick even got the date wrong (1996) - by a decade! Jed, you might want to inform Mr. Lemonick of his mistakes. PS: My apologies if vortex gets this post more than once. I've just about had it with my Charter.net email. I'm now using a different email address in the hopes that this one will make it through. --- Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_d84941ce77e561fe9faee9615284f4ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See recent Time article:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1145236,00.html
http://tinyurl.com/b2bde

TITLE: The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King
By MICHAEL D. LEMONICK

Near the end of the article:

"It wouldn't be the first time. In 1996 chemists from the University of Uta= h claimed they had discovered "cold fusion." They hadn't, it turned out, bu= t a combination of ambition, fear of competition and pressure from the univ= ersity led them to announce the discovery before they had any proof.

************

NOTE: Mr. Lemonick even got the date wrong (1996) - by a decade!

Jed, you might want to inform Mr. Lemonick of his mistakes.

PS: My apologies if vortex gets this post more than once. I've just about h= ad it with my Charter.net email. I'm now using a different email address in= the hopes that this one will make it through.

---
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com --=_d84941ce77e561fe9faee9615284f4ae-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:41:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKfGGZ008040; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:41:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKfEKa008014; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:41:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:41:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:40:19 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper In-Reply-To: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how >Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very >likely appear in the paper Mizuno used a variety of different methods to measure power, including a Hewlett-Packard computer-based instrument and a Yokogawa model PZ4000. When he used a different methods at the same time they agreed to within 1%. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:44:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKhwq5009150; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:44:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKhrIf009113; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:43:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601102043.k0AKhhaW053864@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:43:41 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Recent Pittsburg Article (getting CF wrong) ...Way wrong! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_03130a8af63e5da797874906cd2cedf6" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <2Q5eeC.A.VOC.HyBxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_03130a8af63e5da797874906cd2cedf6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See recent Pittsburgh Tribune_revieww article: http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/tribpm/s_412103.html http://tinyurl.com/amg3x TITLE: South Korean faked human cloning, and he’s not the only mad scientist in history By Rochelle Hentges The first two paragraphs of the article: ************* Before there were cloned stem cells, there was cold fusion. In 1989, two scientists from the University of Utah pulled off one of the biggest modern-day scientific hoaxes and convinced the world they created cold fusion, a process that could provide huge amounts of energy at relatively little cost and lessen our dependence on fossil fuels. But no one was able to reproduce the results of the this study, and the notion of cold fusion has largely been written off. The "cold fusion episode" was the biggest scientific fraud of the past 20 years, said Robert Park, physics professor and author of "Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud." ************ Apparently, the recent cloning fiasco has unfortunately caused a lot of "science" writers to link it to their memories of "cold fusion". Jed, you've got your work cut out for you! --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@orionworks.com www.OrionWorks.com --=_03130a8af63e5da797874906cd2cedf6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See recent Pittsburgh Tribune_revieww article:

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/tribpm/s_412103.html
http://tinyurl.com/amg3x


TITLE: South Korean faked human cloning, and he=92s not the only mad scient= ist in history


By Rochelle Hentges

The first two paragraphs of the article:

*************

Before there were cloned stem cells, there was cold fusion.

In 1989, two scientists from the University of Utah pulled off one of the b= iggest modern-day scientific hoaxes and convinced the world they created co= ld fusion, a process that could provide huge amounts of energy at relativel= y little cost and lessen our dependence on fossil fuels. But no one was abl= e to reproduce the results of the this study, and the notion of cold fusion= has largely been written off.

The "cold fusion episode" was the biggest scientific fraud of the past 20 y= ears, said Robert Park, physics professor and author of "Voodoo Science: Th= e Road from Foolishness to Fraud."

************

Apparently, the recent cloning fiasco has unfortunately caused a lot of "sc= ience" writers to link it to their memories of "cold fusion".

Jed, you've got your work cut out for you!

---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
www.OrionWorks.com --=_03130a8af63e5da797874906cd2cedf6-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:50:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKnRck012015; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:49:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKmoNV011576; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:48:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:48:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110204812477.74A22800008B@mwinf3214.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110204813.00da4c84@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:48:13 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0AKmUM0011337 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:15 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Oh my! We'll soon find out in the premier episode of: > > HYDRINO MEETS THE BETA-ATMOSPHERE > > sponsored by Mr Fusion®, fuel of choice for TARDIS everywhere(when)! > > (You don't have to join to read Dr. Randell Mills' SCME yahoo group.) But if you should apply to join you will receive this very polite (albeit slightly pretentious) invitation soliciting your pedigree. It wouldn't do to let the riff-raff in, would it - though reading some of the posts I see that laymen are not excluded. ------------------------------------------------------- > Dear New Member to SCQM: > > Welcome. I hope the members of the SCQM can help > you understand Mills¹ CQM. > In addition, I hope you can help us promote Mills¹ > theory for the betterment > of science and mankind. > > To that end, it would be helpful to me if you would > identify yourself to me not to the whole group (but > that would be OK and I¹m sure the other members would > appreciate it.). I am sending this to you with my > personal email address and you can simply reply with > a short message of introduction. > > Thank you, > >John Farrell >Moderator of SCQM >-- >John J. Farrell >****************** >****************** ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- Dear John, Ooo! What a nice welcoming letter. I've never had one of those before. Mmm... I suppose you want to know my professional background rather than my personal details so I can't do better than summarise the account already published at the end of my 2002 Infinite Energy article, "Aether Vacua and Cold Fusion." Born 1932 Graduated UCL 1953 - Civil and Structural Engineering - Hounsfield Prize. Scientific Officer Road Research Lab. 1954 - 1958 Senior S.O. '58 - '62 Transferred to Building Research, Watford '62 Principal S.O. '67 - '92 Retired 1992 Francis (Frank) Joseph Grimer, 105 Draycott Avenue, Harrow HA3 0DA 020-8907-3389 (within UK) I trust that will be sufficient, but if you should want to know my shoe size or whether I have ever been convicted of a driving offence, etc., please do not hesitate to ask. ;-) Cheers, Frank Grimer P.S. It's funny, but when I looked at the initials chosen for this group I had to do a double take not to mistake it for the motto on the Roman Standard, SPQR. In view of Dr.Mills' erudition MCBJ might have been even more appropriate, eh! [only kidding ;-) ]. ----------------------------------------------------- I was a bit worried that if they found what MCBJ stood for I might have blown my chances unless they could take a bit of ribbing. Fortunately John took my letter inthe right spirit and replied, -------------------------------------- Frank, >From all us us Romans, welcome aboard! -------------------------------------- ...and not forgetting to make my James Burke Connection the image of embarkation reminded me of the Lear's poem I regularly read to my 2 year old grandson, Edwin Nutter. =============================================== They went to sea in a Sieve, they did, In a Sieve they went to sea: In spite of all their friends could say, On a winter's morn, on a stormy day, In a Sieve they went to sea! And when the Sieve turned round and round, And everyone cried, "You'll all be drowned!" They cried aloud, "Our Sieve ain't big, But we don't care a button, we don't care a fig! In a Sieve we'll go to sea!" Far and few, far and few, Are the lands where the Jumblies live; Their heads are green, and their hands are blue, And they went to sea in a Sieve. They sailed away in a Sieve, they did, In a Sieve they sailed so fast, With only a beautiful pea-green veil Tied with a riband, by way of a sail, To a small tobacco-pipe mast; And everyone said, who saw them go, "O won't they be soon upset, you know! For the sky is dark, and the voyage is long, And happen what may, it's extremely wrong In a Sieve to sail so fast!" Far and few, etc The water it soon came in, it did, The water it soon came in; So to keep them dry, they wrapped their feet In a pinky paper all folded neat, And they fastened it down with a pin. And they passed the night in a crockery-jar, And each of them said, "How wise we are! Though the sky be dark, and the voyage be long, Yet we never can think we were rash or wrong, While round in our Sieve we spin!" Far and few, etc And all night long they sailed away; And when the sun went down, They whistled and warbled a moony song To the echoing sound of a coppery gong, In the shade of the mountains brown. "O Timballo! How happy we are, When we live in a Sieve and a crockery-jar, And all night long in the moonlight pale, We sail away with a pea-green sail, In the shade of the mountains brown!" Far and few, etc They sailed to the Western sea, they did, To a land all covered with trees, And they bought an Owl, and a useful Cart, And a pound of Rice, and a Cranberry Tart, And a hive of silvery Bees. And they bought a Pig, and some green Jack-daws, And a lovely Monkey with lollipop paws, And forty bottles of Ring-Bo-Ree, And no end of Stilton Cheese. Far and few, etc And in twenty years they all came back, In twenty years or more, And everyone said, "How tall they've grown! For they've been to the Lakes, and the Terrible Zone, And they hills of the Chankly Bore"; And they drank their health, and gave them a feast Of dumplings made of beautiful yeast; And everyone said, If we only live, We too will go to sea in a Sieve - To the hills of the Chankly Bore!" Far and few, etc. =============================================== Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:52:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKqSDK013915; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:52:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKqOS1013872; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:52:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:52:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:47:06 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0AKqI0v013762 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks! Good food must be digested slowly. But, one question, you said single protons or deuterons don't fit in the Pd lattice. The Pd lattice is fcc with a unit cell dimension of 389.1 pm. Pd atomic radius is 137 pm. With a Bohr radius of 0.529 pm, the hydrogen atom certainly squeezes in interstitially; or, am I missing something? Forgive me if the answer is in the paper cited. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner I hope these comments are useful, at least as food for thought.    Horace Heffner    ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 12:58:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AKwLpm016754; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:58:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AKvr0u016452; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:57:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:57:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C3FA7B.9070908@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:18:35 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I dug around on Lenr-Canr.org and didn't find what I'm looking for, which probably means I didn't dig very well. If anyone has a link I'd appreciate it. Here's a description of the experiment for which I'd like to find the paper: * * * I'm looking for a paper which describes the experiment Scott Little was attempting to duplicate in the fourth and fifth experiments in his third series of Mizuno replication runs (posted on his website). This used a tungsten cathode, operating at incandescence, in an open cell, with cooling curve measured to determine how fast the cell lost heat during the run, and weight before and after measured to determine how much heat was lost to evaporation. According to a data plot from Mizuno's lab which is posted on Scott Little's website (received by Little in email) the excess-heat signal during this experiment began _instantly_, with no loading or warm-up period. Furthermore, the protocol called for the cell to be operated at the boiling point. But, the total input power was substantially less than would be required to bring the cell to a boil or keep it there, unless there was substantial excess heat generated inside the cell, from the very beginning of the run. That seemed strange. In an earlier thread Mike Carrell pointed out: > Making proper electrical powere measurements on something as noisy as > Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell is definitely not done by a "few meteres > stuffed in a bag" unless these are very carefully selected widebasnd power > meters made by a few manufacturers in the world. So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very likely appear in the paper ... if I could find it.... and I'd also like to know more about the cell coming to a boil with 25 watts more going out through the cell walls than coming in as electrical power, and that info would surely be in the paper, too. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:01:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AL0Y9S018487; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:00:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AL0J40018260; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:00:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:00:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110155748.03884440@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:58:19 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: TIME Article: (CF misprint) - The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King In-Reply-To: <12042555.1136914881448.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> References: <12042555.1136914881448.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I cannot locate Mr. Lemonick, but I sent a form letter to the editor. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:13:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ALDNY8025875; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:13:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALDJ7o025806; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:13:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:13:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C42354.9000204@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:12:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how >> Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very >> likely appear in the paper > > > Mizuno used a variety of different methods to measure power, including a > Hewlett-Packard computer-based instrument and a Yokogawa model PZ4000. > When he used a different methods at the same time they agreed to within 1%. > > See: > > http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf Thanks! These will take a little time to digest. They're both interesting, in part because the excess gas evolution, which Mizuno mentions, _was_ observed by Scott Little. In particular, in the last run he describes on his website (at which Ken Shoulders was observing), he says he saw 3.5 times as much gas as predicted by Faraday's law. (Unlike Mizuno, Little made no attempt to determine what the excess gas was composed of, so it's just a (reasonable) guess that it was hydrogen and oxygen.) Dunno if this is exactly the same effect as the one Mizuno describes, but it's sure the same _symptom_. However, neither of these papers appears to be exactly what I was looking for. Upon looking back at Little's web pages a little more carefully it appears that Mizuno's paper which provided the basis for Little's last test series appeared in Infinite Energy, so I suppose I'll have to go through them to get a copy of it. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:28:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ALRgwh000566; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:27:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALROtu000436; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:27:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:27:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C42689.3000105@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:26:33 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C42354.9000204@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43C42354.9000204@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how >>> Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very >>> likely appear in the paper >> >> >> >> Mizuno used a variety of different methods to measure power, including >> a Hewlett-Packard computer-based instrument and a Yokogawa model >> PZ4000. When he used a different methods at the same time they agreed >> to within 1%. >> >> See: >> >> http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf >> >> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf > > > Thanks! These will take a little time to digest. They're both > interesting, in part because the excess gas evolution, which Mizuno > mentions, _was_ observed by Scott Little. In particular, in the last > run he describes on his website (at which Ken Shoulders was observing), > he says he saw 3.5 times as much gas as predicted by Faraday's law. > (Unlike Mizuno, Little made no attempt to determine what the excess gas > was composed of, so it's just a (reasonable) guess that it was hydrogen > and oxygen.) Dunno if this is exactly the same effect as the one Mizuno > describes, but it's sure the same _symptom_. > > However, neither of these papers appears to be exactly what I was > looking for. Upon looking back at Little's web pages a little more > carefully it appears that Mizuno's paper which provided the basis for > Little's last test series appeared in Infinite Energy, so I suppose I'll > have to go through them to get a copy of it. I should clarify my interest here -- I'm not just trying to pick nits in Mizuno's calorimetry or measurements. Little said that Mizuno said that the instruments said that there was 75 watts of electrical power going in, there was 100 watts of energy being lost to the air through the cell walls, _AND_ there was enough energy left over to keep the cell boiling, and this situation prevailed for at least a quarter of an hour. Furthermore, Little said that Mizuno said that the instruments said that this situation was initiated from the moment the power was turned on (no "loading" time), and continued until the power was turned off. That is absolutely fascinating; I wanna see the original paper, and that's why I was asking about it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:36:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ALUK0c002264; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:35:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALNh3Y031277; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:23:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:23:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:21:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105805.033af530@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > [Prof. Kelves wrote to me as follows. My response is below] > > You seem to have misread my article. I never debunk cold fusion but refer only > to the to the Cold Fusion episode in 1989 at the University of Utah. I did not > characterize the episode as a case of fraud but as an example of scientific > "misdeeds." Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all research > in cold fusion since then. While Mr. Kelves does not debunk cold fusion, he apparently believes it has been debunked because in the Washington Post article he wrote: "Similarly, the Piltdown hoax, which was revealed decades after the manipulated skull's supposed discovery, caused no collateral damage. Paleontology, a historical science, did not have an immediate impact on contemporary physics or medicine. And cold fusion was swiftly debunked, which kept its costs confined to the state of Utah." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:38:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ALc4CU005769; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:38:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALbB7c005190; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:37:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:37:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110162910.038852d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:34:25 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper In-Reply-To: <43C42354.9000204@pobox.com> References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C42354.9000204@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >They're both interesting, in part because the excess gas evolution, >which Mizuno mentions, _was_ observed by Scott Little. In >particular, in the last run he describes on his website (at which >Ken Shoulders was observing), he says he saw 3.5 times as much gas >as predicted by Faraday's law. (Unlike Mizuno, Little made no >attempt to determine what the excess gas was composed of, so it's >just a (reasonable) guess that it was hydrogen and oxygen.) If the temperature was high there is no mystery. It must be decomposed hydrogen and oxygen, from pyrolysis. If you do not account for this enthalpy the calorimetry will be waa-a-a-y wrong. You have to measure it, or cool it and recombine it within the cell, which I suppose would be difficult. (I believe it is proper to call this "enthalpy," along with steam -- which you also have to measure, by the way.) Mizuno calls it "non-Faradaic" but that seems like an overly complicated and mysterious sounding way to describe it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 13:47:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ALksH9010199; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:46:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALkjhc010131; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:46:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:46:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:46:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E446759D3E7B-1F28-3298@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060110204813.00da4c84@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060110204813.00da4c84@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <90vODB.A.JeC.EtCxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After reading about 'mechanically controllable break junctions' and 'marine corps based in Japan' I asked by two coworkers formerly of British Rail and they, too, are stumped. Metric culverts? -----Original Message----- From: Grimer I was a bit worried that if they found what MCBJ stood for I might have blown my chances unless they could take a bit of ribbing. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:00:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AM0ANH016608; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:00:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ALsgrE013775; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:54:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:54:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110165114.03876968@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:53:15 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105805.033af530@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >While Mr. Kelves does not debunk cold fusion . . . That's Prof. Kelves of the history department, and she is a woman. See: http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/b-kevles.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:06:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AM6KDO019016; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AM6FXL018970; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110220604407.636A17400087@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110220605.00a1e300@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:06:05 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:46 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: >After reading about 'mechanically controllable break junctions' and >'marine corps based in Japan' I asked by two coworkers formerly of >British Rail and they, too, are stumped. > >Metric culverts? None of the above It stands for "mi camoca baelim Jehovah". And if you can find the significance of that you will understand its relation to the Roman banner. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:06:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AM6Yrw019105; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AM6OY0019039; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:06:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110220605592.90AAE7400087@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110220606.00a12194@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:06:06 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:47 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Thanks! Good food must be digested slowly. But, one question, you > said single protons or deuterons don't fit in the Pd lattice. The Pd > lattice is fcc with a unit cell dimension of 389.1 pm. Pd atomic > radius is 137 pm. With a Bohr radius of 0.529 pm, the hydrogen atom > certainly squeezes in interstitially; or, am I missing something? > Forgive me if the answer is in the paper cited. How big is a hydrino? Would a hydrino fit? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:28:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMRtO5028295; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:27:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMRqZf028248; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:27:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:27:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:27:29 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E44C2D648DF5-1F28-33F5@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060110220605.00a1e300@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060110220605.00a1e300@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting . . . "Quis similis tui in fortibus Domine quis similis tui magnificus in sanctitate terribilis atque laudabilis et faciens mirabilia" The motto of the Maccabees. A reference to the good doktor? :-) -----Original Message----- From: Grimer And if you can find the significance of that you will understand its relation to the Roman banner. ;-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:32:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMUTFf030193; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:31:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AM72OL019366; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:07:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:07:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:04:59 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <6j82yD.A.XuE.EADxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 10, 2006, at 11:47 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Thanks! Good food must be digested slowly. But, one question, you > said single protons or deuterons don't fit in the Pd lattice. The > Pd lattice is fcc with a unit cell dimension of 389.1 pm. Interesting. I have a bond length for Pd of 275.11 pm. This is not consistent with a cell size of 389.1 pm. If you have better lattice data for the table below I would very much like to see it. > Pd atomic radius is 137 pm. I have 179 pm atomic radius, and 128 pm covalent radius in my Sargent- Welch periodic table. I'm pretty sure I used the covalent radius in the calculations for the size ball that would fit in the face hole and tetrahedral space, so this gives more space (a smaller intruding bulge) than your numbers, and your unit cell dimension implies a longer bond length than I used, so that implies more space as well. It would indeed be nice to get the best available data for all this. > With a Bohr radius of 0.529 pm, the hydrogen atom My periodic table shows the H covalent radius to be 0.32 angstroms, i.e. 32 pm, and the H radius to be 0.79 angstroms, 79 pm. Even 0.529 angstroms sounds way off, unless the H is in partial orbital state. > certainly squeezes in interstitially; or, am I missing something? > Forgive me if the answer is in the paper cited. For some reason we have very different data. Mine could certainly be wrong. I did not use the most reliable and current source. Unfortunately I don't recall offhand where I got the bond length data I used in the AEH paper. I'll have to dig around and don't have the time at the moment. Unfortunately I threw out the drawing and original paper and pencil calculations, and have upgraded computers since. Below is the table I computed, as cut and pasted from the AEH article. Elem. Bond Covalent Atomic Face Hole Tetrahedral Length Radius Radius Radius Space Radius (A) (A) (A) (A) (A) Ge 2.4498 1.22 1.52 0.1944 0.5123 Pt 2.7460 1.30 1.83 0.2854 0.6417 Ni 2.4916 1.15 1.62 0.2885 0.6118 Cu 2.5560 1.17 1.57 0.3057 0.6373 Pd 2.7511 1.28 1.79 0.3083 0.6653 Au 2.8841 1.34 1.79 0.3251 0.6993 Ag 2.8894 1.34 1.75 0.3282 0.7031 Al 2.8630 1.25 1.82 0.4030 0.7744 Ce 3.6500 1.65 2.70 0.4573 0.9309 Yb 3.8800 1.74 2.40 0.5001 1.0035 Ca 3.9470 1.74 2.23 0.5388 1.0509 Pb 3.5003 1.47 1.81 0.5509 1.0051 Sr 4.3020 1.91 2.45 0.5738 1.1319 I simply looked at the geometry as if the atoms were little balls. I believe I've read a fairly recent article somewhere where neutron scattering data confirmed the partial orbital state of single hydrogen atoms in a loaded Pd lattice. I don't recall where. My memory is just not very good. It does seem to me that if your data shown above is assumed then there is no way to account for the lattice swelling that occurs prior to full loading, and it would be difficult to account for diffusion rate observations. The hydrogen would go through the lattice like food through a goose. It would be good to find some reliable data. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:36:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMaGdF002019; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:36:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMZiOt001679; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:35:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:35:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <036f01c61636$2a237650$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060109180740.03427940@mindspring.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110105317.034656c0@mindspring.com> <02b701c61606$d8be1ab0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110130411.03487818@mindspring.com> <5C7B48C0-3DFF-42B4-B36E-D11BBDDABDFD@mtaonline.net> Subject: Re: Uploaded Srinivasan review Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:35:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Does this thread count for half a QED ? JB: >> I almost half-expect at any time that some little known company >> in Finland, or East Moldavia, or somewhere unexpected, will >> suddenly hit the market with a real LENR product - to the >> surprise of all the experts in the US. JR > I think this scenario is very unlikely. HH: And therein lies the reason for the surprise. 8^) Cool. After going through a drought of several years with nada in the way of an appropos place to stick the most fitting of polite academic-acronym-le-mot-juste-retorts: QED ... I now get 1.5 ops in a about as many days.... .... something to do with stochastics, Rupert Sheldrake and quantum probability, no doubt. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:38:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMc48c003403; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:38:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMbtLJ003292; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:37:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:37:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:32:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E44CE329B1C1-1F28-3445@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060110220606.00a12194@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060110220606.00a12194@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Which one? There's 137 of them. Damned number just *keeps* showing up. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Grimer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:06:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions At 03:47 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Thanks! Good food must be digested slowly. But, one question, you > said single protons or deuterons don't fit in the Pd lattice. The Pd > lattice is fcc with a unit cell dimension of 389.1 pm. Pd atomic > radius is 137 pm. With a Bohr radius of 0.529 pm, the hydrogen atom > certainly squeezes in interstitially; or, am I missing something? > Forgive me if the answer is in the paper cited. How big is a hydrino? Would a hydrino fit? Frank ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:39:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMckiu003891; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:38:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMcQ9i003639; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:38:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:38:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110161223.03882dd8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:13:30 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: TIME Article: (CF misprint) - The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110155748.03884440@mindspring.com> References: <12042555.1136914881448.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110155748.03884440@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I cannot locate Mr. Lemonick, but I sent a form letter to the editor. Ah, I found the s.o.b.: Mlemonick@aol.com - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 14:43:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AMgFYR006082; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:42:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMg77X006020; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:42:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:42:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110224134709.AD4B71C0009B@mwinf3106.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110224135.00a0a63c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:41:35 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Resent-Message-ID: <0bSO1B.A.ndB.6gDxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:27 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: >Interesting . . . > > "Quis similis tui in fortibus Domine quis similis tui magnificus in > sanctitate terribilis atque laudabilis et faciens mirabilia" > > The motto of the Maccabees. A reference to the good doktor? :-) Well, if he's right about hydrinos and they prove to be a source of cheap energy he will have done "wonders" wont he. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 15:12:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AN0FvH015629; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:12:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMwR1a014666; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:58:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:58:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060110225807384.5DC425800088@mwinf3112.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060110225808.00a24af8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:58:08 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:32 pm 10/01/2006 -0500, hohlraum wrote: > Which one? There's 137 of them. > Damned number just *keeps* showing > up. :-) Yes, I seem to remember Eddington got very mystical about 137. I presume he must have died well before they found out that it wasn't an integer after all. As for which one, I'm not fussy. The largest which will fit I suppose. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 15:12:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AN0FvJ015629; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:12:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMbkwh003206; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:37:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:37:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,351,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1996556744:sNHT15020636" Message-ID: <2876531.1136923095701.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:58:15 -0800 From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: TIME Article: (CF misprint) - The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See recent Time article: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1145236,00.html http://tinyurl.com/b2bde TITLE: The Rise and Fall of the Cloning King By MICHAEL D. LEMONICK Near the end of the article: "It wouldn't be the first time. In 1996 chemists from the University of Utah claimed they had discovered "cold fusion." They hadn't, it turned out, but a combination of ambition, fear of competition and pressure from the university led them to announce the discovery before they had any proof. ************ NOTE: Mr. Lemonick even got the date wrong (1996) - by a decade! Jed, I think it's time you might want to inform Mr. Lemonick of his mistakes. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 15:12:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0AN0FvL015629; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0AMoab0010739; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:50:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:50:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005001c61638$4141f8a0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <43C3DC24.30900@pobox.com> Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:50:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch >>I have seen no evidence >> that Eartth Tech has these instruments, which Naudin has used. > > Does Mizuno's lab have such instruments? I believe he does, based on comments by Jed, who can communicated directly with him in Japanese. > > This is something I've wondered about, a little, with regard to Ohmori as > well -- if Ohmori's doing work which requires measurement of very noisy > input power levels, and, as Jed says, he's using instruments which date > from the early 20th century, how can he know how much power is going into > the cells? I don't know. I haven't followed his work closely. I know that Jed thinks both Mizun and Ohmori are very careful and competent experimentalists. The vatch with electrical measurement is tha the common AC meters are calibrated with assumed sine waves. There are digital "RMS" meters, but these work only if the waveform is not too distorted and contains mostly distorted power frequency waveforms. A few instruments have wideband circuits that can perform the RMS operation in real time. There are a few digital oscilloscopes that will do a snapshot of E and I waveforms and then do the full RMS calculation. There is a TI portable oscilloscope which does this. If you use analog meters and properly calibrate them, they can be used, but you have to know very well what you are doing. > > In Little's third series of "Mizuno runs", trials four and five, in which > he was trying to duplicate Mizuno's results, he apparently used the same > calorimetry and general cell design as Mizuno. His results showed a > pretty clean zero in run 4 (168,000 joules out, 167,000 joules in, > difference < 1%), and a complete failure to boil in run 5 (consistent with > input power being less than output power), which suggests that, despite > the noisy nature of the input current and voltage, his _measurements_ were > correct (odds of a bogus meter reading showing power-in == power-out in > run 4 would seem to be pretty low -- > you'd expect to see either excess power or an unexplained power loss in > such a case, and in run 5, the lack of boiling was consistent with the > meter readings). > > Obviously lots of other things could have been wrong, including the > possible use of a steel anode in place of platinum (quoting Jed, in old > email -- dunno for sure what anode Little was using on those runs). If > he'd packed up his meters (which appear to be portable) and taken them to > Japan and observed a successful run in Mizuno's lab, it would have at > least made it pretty clear whether it was something going on inside the > cell or something going on with the measurements which made his results > come out differently. > > Please understand, this is a kind of "Gee I wish..." thing rather than a > criticism of anyone. Steve, I understand. This is **not** uncommon. I don't know if steel in place of platinum is critical to the effect. but if you are going validate someone's work you *****duplicate***** it first until you see the same results. Then you can 'do your own thing'. If Mizuno wears a pointy hat, you wear one too. You simply cannot assume that *you* know better. If, for example, Scott used steel instead of platinum in his lab, and knew thae Mizuno used platinum, this is a gross error and flying to Japan with digital pocket meters is not apt to be very informative. You do the homework first. Some years ago Miley had performed some experiments showing transmutation and went so far as to provide kits for others to duplicate his work. Scott got a kit and went though the motions but did not get Miley's result. After much discussion back and forth, it develops that Scott did not **duplicate** something, I think it was a gasket material. Irrelevant? Absolutely not, in a chemical experiment, for gaskets can leach contaminants. As I recall, Miley was furious about this. [If I have something wrong in the above account, pease correct me.] Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 15:53:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ANr92Z016108; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:53:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ANpVkD015252; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:51:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:51:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:48:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110165114.03876968@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Prof. Rothwell thank you for correcting me, Prof. Veeder Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> While Mr. Kelves does not debunk cold fusion . . . > > That's Prof. Kelves of the history department, and she is a woman. See: > > http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/b-kevles.html > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 16:03:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B02lKE021902; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:02:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B02TVm021808; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:02:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:02:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022401c61641$e8b30710$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:59:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0220_01C61617.FF0DA120"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Subject: Nature: Desktop fusion is back on the table Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0220_01C61617.FF0DA120 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0221_01C61617.FF0DA120" ------=_NextPart_001_0221_01C61617.FF0DA120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Desktop fusion is back on the table=20 Physicist claims to have definitive data, but can they be replicated?=20 Mark Peplow =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Imploding bubbles, caught on film emitting light. Are they emit= ting energy too? =A9 D. Flannigan and K.S. Suslick, University of Illinois at Ur= bana-Champaign=20 =20=20=20=20=20 Can the popping of tiny bubbles trigger nuclear fusion, a potential source = of almost unlimited energy? This controversial idea is back on the table, b= ecause its main proponent has new results that, he claims, will silence cri= tics. But others say that the latest experiment simply comes with its own s= et of problems. The idea is simple enough. Blast a liquid with waves of ultrasound and tiny= bubbles of gas are created, which release a burst of heat and light when t= hey implode. The core of the bubble reaches 15,000 =B0C, hot enough to wren= ch molecules apart. Physicists have even suggested that the intense conditi= ons of this sonoluminescence could fuse atomic nuclei together, in the same= process that keeps our Sun running. Physicist Rusi Taleyarkhan of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana,= published the first evidence1 of this 'sonofusion' in 2002; he has been do= gged by sceptics ever since.=20 The underlying physics behind the idea is valid, says Ken Suslick. An exper= t in sonoluminescence at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, Su= slick tried and failed to replicate Taleyarkhan's first results. If the bub= bles' collapse is sufficiently intense, it should indeed be able to crush a= toms together. Taleyarkhan just hasn't done enough to prove it, says Suslic= k. Needle in a haystack Taleyarkhan's first experiments were conducted while he was based at Oak Ri= dge National Laboratory in Tennessee. His idea was to use liquid acetone in= which hydrogen atoms had been replaced by their heavier brethren, deuteriu= m. When deuterium nuclei fuse together, they emit a characteristic burst of= neutrons. But critics pointed out that Taleyarkhan was using an external s= ource of neutrons to 'seed' the bubbles, and that these were swamping his m= easurements of neutrons produced by the fusion reaction itself. "This time round there are no external neutrons," he explains. Instead, his= team loaded a mixture of deuterated acetone and benzene with a uranium sal= t. As the uranium undergoes radioactive decay it releases alpha particles, = which can also seed bubble formation, says Taleyarkhan. "In this experiment we use three independent neutron detectors and a gamma-= ray detector," he adds. The results from the four instruments prove that fu= sion is happening inside his experiment, asserts Taleyarkhan. Although uranium can release neutrons during fission reactions, Taleyarkhan= rules them out because the neutrons he finds bear the energetic hallmark o= f having come from the fusion of two deuterium nuclei2. Taleyarkhan's test reactor still puts out a lot less energy than it takes i= n, making it impractical for generating power. "We have a way to go before = we break even," he admits. But in the meantime, he adds, it could be a chea= p source of neutrons for analysing the structure of materials. The results = are to be published in Physical Review Letters in a few weeks' time. Unreliable sources There is one big problem, however: the experiment doesn't always work, and = the group is not sure why. Seth Putterman, a physicist at the University of= California, Los Angeles, who has also tried to verify some of Taleyarkhan'= s experiments, notes that the paper does not reveal how many failed runs we= re required before the team saw a trace of fusion neutrons. "As a paper it = doesn't convince me," says Putterman. Putterman notes that the team did not continuously monitor background neutr= on levels. Although the neutron count doubles at some points in the experim= ents, Putterman says that neutrons produced in random showers of cosmic ray= s, rather than fusion events, could be responsible. But Taleyarkhan points = out that the neutron count was smaller in detectors further from the reacti= on chamber. To prove that the neutrons are coming from fusion as bubbles burst, Putterm= an and Suslick suggest that the team closely monitor exactly when the neutr= ons appear. The current experiment simply counts up the number of neutrons = detected over minutes, so correlations with bubble bursts cannot be seen. "= The key to improving the signal is timing," says Putterman. Finding proof Another obvious way to confirm that fusion is happening would be to look fo= r tritium, a heavier isotope of hydrogen produced by fusion reactions. Trit= ium leaves a telltale signature of high-energy electrons when it decays and= Taleyarkhan claimed to see this in similar previous experiments1,3. But in= the current tests, tritium's signature is overwhelmed by ?-decay from the = uranium, making it impossible to spot. Given that Suslick and Putterman have both investigated Taleyarkhan's past = claims, they think it odd that they were not consulted by the editors of Ph= ysical Review Letters about the paper. "There are other people who are very= knowledgeable about this," comments Martin Blume, editor-in-chief of the A= merican Physical Society. Taleyarkhan says that Suslick and Putterman are welcome to visit his lab to= see the results for themselves. Both are eager to go as soon as possible. = "We look forward to seeing the experiment run," says Putterman. http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060109/full/060109-5.html ------=_NextPart_001_0221_01C61617.FF0DA120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Desktop fusion is back on the table

Physicist=20 claims to have definitive data, but can they be replicated?

Mark=20 Peplow

3D""=20
3D""=20
3D""=20
=
3D""=20
3D"Web

Imploding bubbles, caught on film emitting = light.=20 Are they emitting energy too?

<= I>=A9 D.=20 Flannigan and K.S. Suslick, University of Illinois at=20 Urbana-Champaign
Can the popping of tiny bubbles t= rigger=20 nuclear fusion, a potential source of almost unlimited energy? This=20 controversial idea is back on the table, because its main proponent has new= =20 results that, he claims, will silence critics. But others say that the late= st=20 experiment simply comes with its own set of problems.
= The idea is simple enough. = Blast a=20 liquid with waves of ultrasound and tiny bubbles of gas are created, which= =20 release a burst of heat and light when they implode. The core of the bubble= =20 reaches 15,000 =B0C, hot enough to wrench molecules apart. Physicists have = even=20 suggested that the intense conditions of this sonoluminescence could fuse a= tomic=20 nuclei together, in the same process that keeps our Sun running.
Physicist Ru= si=20 Taleyarkhan of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, published the = first=20 evidence1= =20 of this 'sonofusion' in 2002; he has been dogged by sceptics ever since.=20

T= he underlying=20 physics behind the idea is valid, says Ken Suslick. An expert in=20 sonoluminescence at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, Suslick= =20 tried and failed to replicate Taleyarkhan's first results. If the bubbles'= =20 collapse is sufficiently intense, it should indeed be able to crush atoms= =20 together. Taleyarkhan just hasn't done enough to prove it, says=20 Suslick.

Needle in a haystack

= Taleyarkhan's first experiments were conduct= ed while=20 he was based at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. His idea was to= use=20 liquid acetone in which hydrogen atoms had been replaced by their heavier= =20 brethren, deuterium. When deuterium nuclei fuse together, they emit a=20 characteristic burst of neutrons. But critics pointed out that Taleyarkhan = was=20 using an external source of neutrons to 'seed' the bubbles, and that these = were=20 swamping his measurements of neutrons produced by the fusion reaction=20 itself.

"This=20 time round there are no external neutrons," he explains. Instead, his team= =20 loaded a mixture of deuterated acetone and benzene with a uranium salt. As = the=20 uranium undergoes radioactive decay it releases alpha particles, which can = also=20 seed bubble formation, says Taleyarkhan.

"In this experiment we use three independent= neutron=20 detectors and a gamma-ray detector," he adds. The results from the four=20 instruments prove that fusion is happening inside his experiment, asserts= =20 Taleyarkhan.

Although uranium can release neutrons during fission reactions,= =20 Taleyarkhan rules them out because the neutrons he finds bear the energetic= =20 hallmark of having come from the fusion of two deuterium nuclei2= .
Taleyarkhan'= s test=20 reactor still puts out a lot less energy than it takes in, making it imprac= tical=20 for generating power. "We have a way to go before we break even," he admits= . But=20 in the meantime, he adds, it could be a cheap source of neutrons for analys= ing=20 the structure of materials. The results are to be published in Physical= =20 Review Letters in a few weeks' time.

Unreliable sources
There is one big problem, h= owever: the=20 experiment doesn't always work, and the group is not sure why. Seth Putterm= an, a=20 physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who has also tried = to=20 verify some of Taleyarkhan's experiments, notes that the paper does not rev= eal=20 how many failed runs were required before the team saw a trace of fusion=20 neutrons. "As a paper it doesn't convince me," says Putterman.
Putterman no= tes that the=20 team did not continuously monitor background neutron levels. Although the= =20 neutron count doubles at some points in the experiments, Putterman says tha= t=20 neutrons produced in random showers of cosmic rays, rather than fusion even= ts,=20 could be responsible. But Taleyarkhan points out that the neutron count was= =20 smaller in detectors further from the reaction chamber.
To prove that the neutrons = are coming=20 from fusion as bubbles burst, Putterman and Suslick suggest that the team= =20 closely monitor exactly when the neutrons appear. The current experiment si= mply=20 counts up the number of neutrons detected over minutes, so correlations wit= h=20 bubble bursts cannot be seen. "The key to improving the signal is timing," = says=20 Putterman.

Finding proof

Another obvious way to confirm that fusion is happening would be= to=20 look for tritium, a heavier isotope of hydrogen produced by fusion reaction= s.=20 Tritium leaves a telltale signature of high-energy electrons when it decays= and=20 Taleyarkhan claimed to see this in similar previous experiments1= ,3= .=20 But in the current tests, tritium's signature is overwhelmed by ?-decay fro= m the=20 uranium, making it impossible to spot.

= Given that Susli= ck and=20 Putterman have both investigated Taleyarkhan's past claims, they think it o= dd=20 that they were not consulted by the editors of Physical Review Letters=20 about the paper. "There are other people who are very knowledgeable about t= his,"=20 comments Martin Blume, editor-in-chief of the American Physical=20 Society.

Taleyarkhan says that Suslick and Putterman are welcome to visit= his=20 lab to see the results for themselves. Both are eager to go as soon as poss= ible.=20 "We look forward to seeing the experiment run," says Putterman.
 
http://w= ww.nature.com/news/2006/060109/full/060109-5.html

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X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110185724.0339d0a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:05:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110165114.03876968@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Prof. Rothwell thank you for correcting me, That's Herr Doctor Doctor Professor to you, sir. Mit sauerkraut. (Apologies to our German readers.) I must be polite to Prof. Kelves, and oh-so-proper, since I am sending her gratuitous insults. That is the Japanese technique. No language is better suited to insulting someone while using hyper-polite vocabulary and grammar. (It is something of a lost art, alas, mainly practiced by wealthy women and geisha.) I have had an hysterical exchange of messages with Lemonick. Among other things he claims, "It may be that others have produced cold fusion since, but that's not the same thing." My response: "In what sense do you mean it is not 'the same thing,' anyway? The same experimental technique is used, and the same results are observed." Evidently he cannot think of an answer, so he changed the subject. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 17:04:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B14JF1017289; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:04:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B14Ha2017279; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:04:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:04:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:04:03 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0B14CQe017198 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First off, there's a difference between Bohr radius and the Covalent radius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen Second, I can now tell you that I am Terry Blanton since my boss is under the knife for an aortal valve replacement and will likely not see these posts. I had to go under cover because an irate AA who had worked with me on some CF projects revealed all when she was released. (She had all the Vortex posts on her computer.) My boss chastised me for spending too much time trying to save his grandchildren (energy). In case you don't recognize the name, we looked at a lot of 3D Mars blue berries. Regarding your AEH, I am over 1/3 through it and agree with many aspects. I have always believed ionization in general could be ou. Do you think H2 is dissociated *and* ionized in electrolysis? BTW, I can find no information on the web which tells me if it is molecular, atomic, or ionized H that is deposited in Pd. My data is on my office computer. It is damned hard to find the unit cell length of Pd!! I have a NRL report which shows 4% swelling of the Pd lattice during hydridization (made that word up!). I'll give you those refs tomorrow. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner It does seem to me that if your data shown above is assumed then there is no way to account for the lattice swelling that occurs prior to full loading, and it would be difficult to account for diffusion rate observations. The hydrogen would go through the lattice like food through a goose.    It would be good to find some reliable data.    Horace Heffner    ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 17:12:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B1BiLC020337; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:11:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B1BfFE020299; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:11:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:11:28 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E46315A5891A-C0C-17F3@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060110224135.00a0a63c@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060110224135.00a0a63c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hydrino Catalyst Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh, yes, of course. However, I thought you might be referring to the Maccabees' fight against Rome (established fizziks). -----Original Message----- From: Grimer Well, if he's right about hydrinos and they prove to be a source of cheap energy he will have done "wonders" wont he. 8-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 17:22:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B1LXTc025223; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:21:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B1LRhf025190; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:21:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:21:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024401c6164d$0ae1c960$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <2.2.32.20060110224135.00a0a63c@pop.freeserve.net> <8C7E46315A5891A-C0C-17F3@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:19:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Subject: Desktop fusion is back on the table Resent-Message-ID: <3lvUCC.A.aJG.X2FxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Desktop fusion is back on the table Physicist claims to have definitive data, but can they be replicated? Mark Peplow Can the popping of tiny bubbles trigger nuclear fusion, a potential source of almost unlimited energy? This controversial idea is back on the table, because its main proponent has new results that, he claims, will silence critics. But others say that the latest experiment simply comes with its own set of problems. The idea is simple enough. Blast a liquid with waves of ultrasound and tiny bubbles of gas are created, which release a burst of heat and light when they implode. The core of the bubble reaches 15,000 °C, hot enough to wrench molecules apart. Physicists have even suggested that the intense conditions of this sonoluminescence could fuse atomic nuclei together, in the same process that keeps our Sun running. Physicist Rusi Taleyarkhan of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, published the first evidence1 of this 'sonofusion' in 2002; he has been dogged by sceptics ever since. The underlying physics behind the idea is valid, says Ken Suslick. An expert in sonoluminescence at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, Suslick tried and failed to replicate Taleyarkhan's first results. If the bubbles' collapse is sufficiently intense, it should indeed be able to crush atoms together. Taleyarkhan just hasn't done enough to prove it, says Suslick. Needle in a haystack Taleyarkhan's first experiments were conducted while he was based at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. His idea was to use liquid acetone in which hydrogen atoms had been replaced by their heavier brethren, deuterium. When deuterium nuclei fuse together, they emit a characteristic burst of neutrons. But critics pointed out that Taleyarkhan was using an external source of neutrons to 'seed' the bubbles, and that these were swamping his measurements of neutrons produced by the fusion reaction itself. "This time round there are no external neutrons," he explains. Instead, his team loaded a mixture of deuterated acetone and benzene with a uranium salt. As the uranium undergoes radioactive decay it releases alpha particles, which can also seed bubble formation, says Taleyarkhan. "In this experiment we use three independent neutron detectors and a gamma-ray detector," he adds. The results from the four instruments prove that fusion is happening inside his experiment, asserts Taleyarkhan. Although uranium can release neutrons during fission reactions, Taleyarkhan rules them out because the neutrons he finds bear the energetic hallmark of having come from the fusion of two deuterium nuclei2. Taleyarkhan's test reactor still puts out a lot less energy than it takes in, making it impractical for generating power. "We have a way to go before we break even," he admits. But in the meantime, he adds, it could be a cheap source of neutrons for analysing the structure of materials. The results are to be published in Physical Review Letters in a few weeks' time. Unreliable sources There is one big problem, however: the experiment doesn't always work, and the group is not sure why. Seth Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, who has also tried to verify some of Taleyarkhan's experiments, notes that the paper does not reveal how many failed runs were required before the team saw a trace of fusion neutrons. "As a paper it doesn't convince me," says Putterman. Putterman notes that the team did not continuously monitor background neutron levels. Although the neutron count doubles at some points in the experiments, Putterman says that neutrons produced in random showers of cosmic rays, rather than fusion events, could be responsible. But Taleyarkhan points out that the neutron count was smaller in detectors further from the reaction chamber. To prove that the neutrons are coming from fusion as bubbles burst, Putterman and Suslick suggest that the team closely monitor exactly when the neutrons appear. The current experiment simply counts up the number of neutrons detected over minutes, so correlations with bubble bursts cannot be seen. "The key to improving the signal is timing," says Putterman. Finding proof Another obvious way to confirm that fusion is happening would be to look for tritium, a heavier isotope of hydrogen produced by fusion reactions. Tritium leaves a telltale signature of high-energy electrons when it decays and Taleyarkhan claimed to see this in similar previous experiments1,3. But in the current tests, tritium's signature is overwhelmed by ?-decay from the uranium, making it impossible to spot. Given that Suslick and Putterman have both investigated Taleyarkhan's past claims, they think it odd that they were not consulted by the editors of Physical Review Letters about the paper. "There are other people who are very knowledgeable about this," comments Martin Blume, editor-in-chief of the American Physical Society. Taleyarkhan says that Suslick and Putterman are welcome to visit his lab to see the results for themselves. Both are eager to go as soon as possible. "We look forward to seeing the experiment run," says Putterman. http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060109/full/060109-5.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 18:06:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B25rsX015408; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:05:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B25gGN015303; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:05:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:05:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:03:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <3yBlkC.A._uD.0fGxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:04 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > First off, there's a difference between Bohr radius and the > Covalent radius: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen Dang, a differing terminology. And they have the "van der Waals radius" too, at 120 nm. They say: "The van der Waals radius of an atom is the radius of an imaginary hard sphere which can be used to model the atom for many purposes. Van der Waals radii are determined from measurements of atomic spacing between pairs of unbonded atoms in crystals." This seems to be the radius I should have used to describe a lone hydrogen atom, the one that won't fit. I felt sure the "atomic radius" (79 nm) on my periodic chart was the radius of the stand- alone atom, and the "covalent radius" (32 nm) was the radius of the atom in the H2 molecule, and which is certainly smaller. Now there are more definitions to deal with. Wow, that big 120 nm van der Waals hydrogen radius would be even tougher to fit! > > Second, I can now tell you that I am Terry Blanton Wow! Hi Terry! > since my boss is under the knife for an aortal valve replacement > and will likely not see these posts. I had to go under cover > because an irate AA What's an AA? > who had worked with me on some CF projects You did CF projects at work? > revealed all when she was released. Released? Is that like fired? > (She had all the Vortex posts on her computer.) My boss chastised > me for spending too much time trying to save his grandchildren > (energy). In case you don't recognize the name, we looked at a lot > of 3D Mars blue berries. How could I ever forget you Terry! > > Regarding your AEH, I am over 1/3 through it and agree with many > aspects. I have always believed ionization in general could be > ou. Do you think H2 is dissociated *and* ionized in electrolysis? Not necessarily in low voltage electrolysis, but with no doubt in the high voltage range described in the blue glow articles and . > BTW, I can find no information on the web which tells me if it is > molecular, atomic, or ionized H that is deposited in Pd. This is a really complex subject. The best book I've found is Topics in Applied Physics, Vol 73, Hydrogen in Metals III, Edited by H. Wipf, Springer-Verlag, ISBN 3-540-61639-X. The most exciting thing is that diffusion happens primarily by tunneling, and typical diffusion jump rates exceed 1 THz! Diffusing hydrogen in metals is a great environment for tunneling events, like fuson. > > My data is on my office computer. It is damned hard to find the > unit cell length of Pd!! I have a NRL report which shows 4% > swelling of the Pd lattice during hydridization (made that word > up!). I'll give you those refs tomorrow. Yes, a small percent swelling is typical and it correlates to an increase in resistance - which is due to electrons matched with the adsorbed hydrogen getting tied down, in my opinion. When the nuclei can't diffuse any longer, the electrons can't move. They are "in a box". Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 18:32:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B2VlnU028054; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B2Vjrc028028; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:31:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E46E460362B5-1FF4-E257@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.132 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0B2Vfqm027970 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Administrative Assistant, aka secretary . . . she was well-trained in MS Word. She could play the software like a violin. When we were "downsized" she spilled the beans including the time she spent helping me help others understand how to modify documents on CF which needed to go public. Lacking altruism, she was particularly upset when noone recognized her contribution and pointed all out to management. Hell, she got paid! Anyway, I be the boss now . . . at least for a few weeks. :-) BTW, we are on a "sustainability" kick now and altruistic work is no longer a bad thing! Shift happens and things change! -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner What's an AA?    > who had worked with me on some CF projects    You did CF projects at work?    > revealed all when she was released.    Released? Is that like fired?  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 18:53:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B2rWN6011477; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:53:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B2rTuL011439; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:53:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:53:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:48:10 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E47097AF45D0-1FF4-E2B4@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <022401c61641$e8b30710$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <022401c61641$e8b30710$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Nature: Desktop fusion is back on the table Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.132 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2fM7qC.A.nyC.oMHxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What sort of idiots are these? -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello "Imploding bubbles, caught on film emitting light. Are they emitting energy too?" ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 18:55:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B2swGo011946; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:55:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B2stev011902; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:54:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:54:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C47355.3020103@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:54:13 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch References: <43C272C2.1000103@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060109110605.029b6a98@mail.newenergytimes.com> <43C2C0C7.7060309@pobox.com> <23EFEDF4-BAB4-4208-8A6A-7EDFD817EDEB@mtaonline.net> <43C2D91E.5090002@pobox.com> <11C66283-8442-469B-B6BB-66FA48CF04A6@mtaonline.net> <43C2F5D2.1080400@pobox.com> <031CCC84-3A9B-47C5-B620-838C2AE4B517@mtaonline.net> <43C3AA74.62072075@centurytel.net> <43C3C209.5090200@pobox.com> <005501c615f4$26d16b20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <43C3DC24.30900@pobox.com> <005001c61638$4141f8a0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005001c61638$4141f8a0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > Subject: Re: EarthTech's (Scott Little's) magic touch > > > > >>> I have seen no evidence >>> that Eartth Tech has these instruments, which Naudin has used. >> >> >> Does Mizuno's lab have such instruments? > > > I believe he does, based on comments by Jed, who can communicated > directly with him in Japanese. > >> >> This is something I've wondered about, a little, with regard to Ohmori >> as well -- if Ohmori's doing work which requires measurement of very >> noisy input power levels, and, as Jed says, he's using instruments >> which date from the early 20th century, how can he know how much power >> is going into the cells? > > > I don't know. I haven't followed his work closely. I know that Jed > thinks both Mizun and Ohmori are very careful and competent > experimentalists. The vatch with electrical measurement is tha the > common AC meters are calibrated with assumed sine waves. There are > digital "RMS" meters, but these work only if the waveform is not too > distorted and contains mostly distorted power frequency waveforms. A few > instruments have wideband circuits that can perform the RMS operation in > real time. There are a few digital oscilloscopes that will do a snapshot > of E and I waveforms and then do the full RMS calculation. There is a TI > portable oscilloscope which does this. > > If you use analog meters and properly calibrate them, they can be used, > but you have to know very well what you are doing. > >> >> In Little's third series of "Mizuno runs", trials four and five, in >> which he was trying to duplicate Mizuno's results, he apparently used >> the same calorimetry and general cell design as Mizuno. His results >> showed a pretty clean zero in run 4 (168,000 joules out, 167,000 >> joules in, difference < 1%), and a complete failure to boil in run 5 >> (consistent with input power being less than output power), which >> suggests that, despite the noisy nature of the input current and >> voltage, his _measurements_ were correct (odds of a bogus meter >> reading showing power-in == power-out in run 4 would seem to be pretty >> low -- you'd expect to see either excess power or an unexplained power >> loss in such a case, and in run 5, the lack of boiling was consistent >> with the meter readings). >> >> Obviously lots of other things could have been wrong, including the >> possible use of a steel anode in place of platinum (quoting Jed, in >> old email -- dunno for sure what anode Little was using on those >> runs). If he'd packed up his meters (which appear to be portable) and >> taken them to Japan and observed a successful run in Mizuno's lab, it >> would have at least made it pretty clear whether it was something >> going on inside the cell or something going on with the measurements >> which made his results come out differently. >> >> Please understand, this is a kind of "Gee I wish..." thing rather than >> a criticism of anyone. > > > Steve, I understand. This is **not** uncommon. I don't know if steel in > place of platinum is critical to the effect. but if you are going > validate someone's work you *****duplicate***** it first until you see > the same results. Then you can 'do your own thing'. If Mizuno wears a > pointy hat, you wear one too. You simply cannot assume that *you* know > better. If, for example, Scott used steel instead of platinum in his > lab, and knew thae Mizuno used platinum, this is a gross error and > flying to Japan with digital pocket meters is not apt to be very > informative. You do the homework first. Some years ago Miley had > performed some experiments showing transmutation and went so far as to > provide kits for others to duplicate his work. Scott got a kit and went > though the motions but did not get Miley's result. After much discussion > back and forth, it develops that Scott did not **duplicate** something, > I think it was a gasket material. Irrelevant? Absolutely not, in a > chemical experiment, for gaskets can leach contaminants. As I recall, > Miley was furious about this. > > [If I have something wrong in the above account, pease correct me.] I don't know about the Miley event. But I don't disagree with the general principle you're stating, and I don't think Scott would necessarily disagree, either, based on what I saw on his site. His initial runs were done very differently from Mizuno's, but when they didn't work, he attempted to match Mizuno's setup as closely as possible, at least as far as I could see in the accounts on his website. As I said, the calorimetry he used in the last 3 or 4 runs was identical to Mizuno's: bare, transparent cell with computed heat loss to the environment, and no water jacket. He apparently didn't have complete specs for some things, like the cell ambient environment, and had to make some guesses; adding a fan represented one such guess, when he couldn't get his cooling curve to look like Mizuno's without it; his cell seemed reluctant to cool as fast as Mizuno's. After reading that, though, I saw a photo of one of Mizuno's setups on Lenr-Canr and lo and behold it also used a fan for air circulation. So that guess was apparently right. (Why didn't Scott know for sure whether Mizuno used a fan? He says he saw videos of Mizuno's setup. Whatever...) I know at one point he was using a cathode from Mizuno's lab; later changes to the cathode were done in part because he was trying to duplicate Mizuno's current numbers and was having trouble with them. (At one point Scott sent some of his home-made cathodes to Mizuno, who tried them and found they generated excess heat FWIW.) The anode in the later runs was not steel, it was platinum mesh, fabricated according to Mizuno's instructions. But Scott still may have blown it on any of a number of other little details, if only because he never actually saw Mizuno's lab himself, and Mizuno never saw Scott's lab. Finally, though, it seems to me that the biggest issue is that Scott did six runs, TOTAL, with the final setup, versus hundreds of runs in Mizuno's lab. Of those, the first three (I think) were done with different calorimety, with the cell enclosed in an opaque jacket; there were just three runs where he really was using the same setup as Mizuno, and one of those was a dud because the cell wouldn't boil. So really there were just two runs that one might have expected to have worked (#4 and #6 of the third series). The fact that he was two for two on blanks wouldn't prove much anyway even if he really did finally get everything right. As far as I can see he never figured out why his cell wouldn't reach boiling, while Mizuno's did. One lesson one takes away from reading about these experiments is that this kind of thing takes time, in great, big slabs. > > Mike Carrell > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 19:02:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B31mNF015450; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:01:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B31hem015382; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:01:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:01:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c6165b$4ef59470$7d037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:00:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HOT_NASTY, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Harry.. Whats the old saying.. mentioning a person is a" Yalie" completes the conversation. Did you examine her " credentials" listed in her bio ? I am trying to connect her expertise in wild animal sexual conduct with physics. Perhaps she witnessed a surge of energy in the lab and misinterpreted the result of the experiment as love. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal > Prof. Rothwell thank you for correcting me, > > Prof. Veeder > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>> While Mr. Kelves does not debunk cold fusion . . . >> >> That's Prof. Kelves of the history department, and she is a woman. See: >> >> http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/b-kevles.html >> >> - Jed >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 19:04:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B33tb7016674; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:03:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B33mQF016614; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:03:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:54:21 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: further thoughts on D2fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; As someone pointed out, the proposed D2fusion heater is a more efficient electricity waster (electric heater). I'm disappointed that no one commented on my math, I'd like to make sure that I got it right. With regards to the efficacy of the technology, I was making the assumption that since people use electricity as a heat source today, they will continue to do so. This is particularly true of off peak heating systems, which IMHO, would be the preferred use of the proposed D2fusion heater. Having hooked up my fair share of these systems, I can tell you that most of these heat elements are direct to air heaters, however a significant number are water heaters. I hope that they will produce a water heater because it, combined with a watt hour meter, a flow meter and a thermometer, would be a proof of excess energy production, and IMHO, no engineering school worthy of the name should be with out one. I told the Russian professor who translated the page from the arms manufacturer the same thing about the Patopov Pump. Such a system could be mounted into a man portable unit, which would make a good stick in the eye for people who attack the existence of LENR. I have previously mentioned David Moon's proposed Nucleovoltic Cell on this forum. IMHO, it holds out the best potential of being capable of closing the loop. However at a reported efficiency of 30% I question that it would do so either. Alexander Frolov contends that with the proper combination of circuits, direct conversion of low grade thermal energy to electricity is possible too. He was looking for funding at that time however, that and you must consider the source. IMHO, the Baron should start writing for Alexander. I don't know that everything that he publishes is sifi, I just know that some of it is. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 19:28:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B3RdtU030991; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:27:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B3RaQB030959; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:27:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04eb01c6165e$f171ecf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E46E460362B5-1FF4-E257@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:27:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Aha, the whole-ram escapes being burned on the OU altar.. (perversion of Exodus) and comes clean. I knew that this whole-ram persona was a little-too-knowing to be a greenhorn fresh out of pasture. > Administrative Assistant, aka secretary . . . she was > well-trained in MS Word. She could play the software like a > violin. And ... elle parle français ? Is that the one? Too bad. There is something about French women in general that stirs the imagination ... BTW for ages, I had this thing for "Mireille", the cutie from the old "French in Action" series. Years later I heard the rumor that she (Valérie Allain) became a porn star...How could she? I was even more crushed than when that dog, Warren Beatty got the angelic Julie Christie to utter a shockingly vulgar line which was definitely not in Lara's vocabulary. Well illusions are just that, aren't they .... and old Prof. Capretz, that dog, had something going on the side all along, didn't he ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 22:43:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B6grPS008195; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:42:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B6gln9008143; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:42:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:42:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2DBE6F17-736D-472D-9D58-4F439621EA6D@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:40:39 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check out the photo at . The sonoluminescence color is just like the anode blue-green glow color. Here's a comparison color: . Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 10 23:10:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B7AQpr020025; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:10:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B7AO3I020009; Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:10:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060111071014619.971F01C00085@mwinf3204.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060111071015.00a10264@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:10:15 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:40 pm 10/01/2006 -0900, you wrote: >Check out the photo at 060109-5.html>. The sonoluminescence color is just like the anode >blue-green glow color. Here's a comparison color: home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm>. > >Horace Heffner Even as a non-experimentalist, I found that rather interesting. 8-) Frank > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 00:35:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0B8YvWY023102; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:34:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0B8Ytig023065; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:34:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:34:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:23:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal In-reply-to: <001c01c6165b$4ef59470$7d037841@xptower> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...As in "so and so is an Oxford man." ? Anyway, I suspect cars, rockets, and planes are not her "thing". Harry RC Macaulay wrote: > Hey Harry.. > Whats the old saying.. mentioning a person is a" Yalie" completes the > conversation. Did you examine her " credentials" listed in her bio ? I am > trying to connect her expertise in wild animal sexual conduct with physics. > Perhaps she witnessed a surge of energy in the lab and misinterpreted the > result of the experiment as love. > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: A response from Kevles, and my rebuttal > > >> Prof. Rothwell thank you for correcting me, >> >> Prof. Veeder >> >> >> Jed Rothwell wrote: >> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> >>>> While Mr. Kelves does not debunk cold fusion . . . >>> >>> That's Prof. Kelves of the history department, and she is a woman. See: >>> >>> http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/b-kevles.html >>> >>> - Jed >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 02:20:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BAJpHw031289; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:19:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BAJmVt031255; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:19:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:19:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46918732A@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Has Physics Gone Nuts? Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:19:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65659 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Grimer, Very well put, UMIST first and City, KCL I've done CPD programmes at. Good links to Oxford, QMW ant other unis. Yes there is an immense class war between Brighton and Sussex. They are literally just a mile away and I sometimes use their library because as you would imagine, the physics stock is depleted here. "No-one at Brighton does physics" is what I heard one snob mutter as I walked the shelves. The truth is that there will probably be some merger to form another centre of excellence on the south coast (Southampton 50 miles away). Our pharmacy dept. is 5 rated (top, international quality) but my department is only 3. One can see why, mediocre 'academics' with paltry knowledge, lack of vision, the inability to think bigger. 'If you want the latest theories in cosmology go up the road, if you want to know the properties of mud come here'. That's what one of my supervisors said. It's a kind of knowing one's place mentality. It's a foot on the ladder. Amazingly the place not surprisingly is so left wing but inadvertently racist - they don't mind ethnic minorities that are mediocre and meet the government targets but one must know one's place! (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the acks are like that, just a few nasty unionised ones). I'm always in trouble here getting called up to the head's office for some b.llsh.t or such about some non-PC remark I've made, allegations of sexual harassment from silly infatuated girls etc. etc. You see they can't actually get me for the work itself... Yeah I liked the Two Ronnies/Monty Python sketch. That's the British, that's the way it works!! Remi. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Grimer Sent: 10 January 2006 19:33 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Has Physics Gone Nuts? At 04:54 pm 10/01/2006 -0000, Remi wrote: >There is a gift to doing physics. The best people at present are those >trained in electrical engineering and cross over (Dirac, Feynman?) or the >applied physicists. > >Farooq Abdullah who used to teach me taught his daughter electromagnetism as >she studied for her maths degree. I remember what he said to me was the >impression she gave of, "is that it" when she saw Maxwell's equations. > >Too many mathematicians work this way, ok pure maths I can't do so I'll do >applied which makes me a physicist. (The physicists then want to become >engineers and the engineers get relegated to lowly technicians). The truth >of the matter is that the composition of a physicist is: > >Part Experimenter/Engineer/Inventor >Part Mathematician >Part Philosopher >Part Artist (a sense of beauty and economy which applies to the other three) > >People have a different make up but the current fashion is the mathematical >physicist, hence the vogue for talking any nonsense (11 dimensional space, >imaginary time, negative mass/energy). > >Faraday: Experimenter/Philosopher >Gauss: Mathematician/Experimenter? >Einstein: Philosopher/Mathematician >Fermi: Mathematician/Experimenter equal measure > >And loads more. > >I was talking to colleagues at lunch a week ago and we reckon its all part >of middle class snobbery. Oxbridge didn't consider the natural sciences >worthy of study until about 500 years ago, I think and they still award BA, >MAs. Engineering was frowned upon up to about 150 years ago as not being >worthy of academic status hence all the 'stone' technical institutes that >are now well "traditional" universities. So in this country we have a kind >of food chain of unis. > >Oxbridge Ivy League >'Stone buildings': Imperial, UMIST charter around turn of last century or >before >'Redbrick or cast concrete' unis: late 50s, 60s >'White tile': Polys cum unis created by Prime-minister Major (remember >him?). (Trouble is all the b.llsh.t 'degree' courses such as hairdressing >(BTrim), golf management (BSwing). They need to stamp this out.) > >You see the more refined the appearance of a subject, the more mathematical, >philosophical and high faluting the posher it is. And then you get to have >posh dinners with influential upper middle class people going and ah yeah, >ah yeah, lah di dah I read Kant and he said such and such and I read a >treatise on post modernism and we are all doomed... Yep. That sums up the British scene pretty well, Remi. Them's my sentiments too. 8-) But as I said to my kids - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. The only trouble with badmouthing hairdressing and golf is that it does rather remind one of the Two Ronnies sketch - you know - the one that goes, "I look up to him - but I look down on him." ;-) I seem to remember that before the war there were a lot of Universities that took external degrees of the University of London, Exeter must have been one, cos my brother was rusticated and went off to bomb the Germans. I think there were only 4 colleges that set their own internal London degrees, UCL (the Godless Building in Gower street), KCL (the seminary in the strand) Imperial and QMC. After the war the Polytechnics also took the external London degrees. One was well advised to strive one's hardest to get into an internal college though, since once in, one's degree was effectively guaranteed. Any lecturer who was completely hopeless and couldn't teach for toffee virtually told you the questions in the lecture immediately prior to the exam so that his deficiencies would not become apparent. Funnily enough the best lecturer I ever had at Uni was one from Northampton Polytechnic (which, in spite of its name, is near the Angel, Islington in London). His lectures were an absolute model of clarity. Presumably they had to be or his Poly students would have all failed the external exam. His name was Mr Wilkins and he used to ride a bicycle. He died quite young of a heart attack - so much for the virtues of exercise. 8-( Eventually the Polys were rebadged as Unis. Northampton Poly became City University, Chelsea became Surrey, Acton Tech became Brunel and so on and so forth. I always remember going down to West Sussex University to visit Professor Laithwaite and see his gyro experiments. WSU were very pissed off that Brighton what's-its-name had stolen a march on them and transmogrified itself into Brighton University thus apparently upturning the prestige rankings in the eyes of those unfamiliar with the arcane nature of the British university system. I always think the most egregious example of this was Harrow Technical College which became Westminster University - the very dregs according to the rankings. However, anyone from abroad might easily get confused between Westminster School, a top flight public school (for the benefit of US readers "public" means private and very expensive.) Westminster Parliament, the seat of British Government, and Westminster University, which is the pits. Which one did you go to Remi? I do hope it wasn't Westminster or I shall feel terribly embarrassed. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 02:42:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BAgNMJ007392; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:42:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BAgLcp007370; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:42:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:42:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <833DFE4A-67EF-4410-B14E-7A335B2C8D45@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Anode blue glow and sonoluminescence Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:40:11 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65660 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Check out the photo at . The sonoluminescence color is just like the anode blue-green glow color. Here's a comparison color: . If you want to see a very blue D2O glow, take a look at , though the anode glow, if any, appears to be coincidental. The site specifies "deuterated sulfamic acid electrolyte, Rare earth plated W cathode, Pt on Ti screen anode." Any bets on dark blue for anode glow? >PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE >The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News >Number 246 October 25, 1995 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein > >ISOTOPE EFFECTS IN SONOLUMINESCENCE have been >observed by Seth Putterman and Robert Hiller at UCLA. >Sonoluminescence (SL) is a mysterious phenomenon in which acoustic >energy is transduced into light energy; high frequency sound waves >are absorbed by tiny bubbles in water. The bubbles, oscillating >wildly, re-emit the energy in the form of tiny, focused light bursts. >Many things about SL are still unknown, such as the nature of the >light-emitting process or why the light pulses are so short. The >UCLA work has established one new fact: substituting heavy water >(D2O) for ordinary water (H2O) as the liquid medium causes the SL >spectrum to dramatically shift from ultraviolet toward red >wavelengths. This result seems to represent yet a new mystery. >According to the researchers, "The shift is remarkably large, >especially in view of the small difference in chemical and elastic >properties between light and heavy water." (Robert A. Hiller and >Seth Putterman, upcoming article in Physical Review Letters; >journalists can obtain copies from AIP Public Information, >physnews@aip.org) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 02:46:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BAkT7B008860; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:46:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BAkSGG008847; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:46:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:46:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Anode blue glow and sonoluminescence Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:44:22 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65661 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Check out the photo at . The sonoluminescence color is just like the anode blue-green glow color. Here's a comparison color: . If you want to see a very blue D2O glow, take a look at , though the anode glow, if any, appears to be coincidental. The site specifies "deuterated sulfamic acid electrolyte, Rare earth plated W cathode, Pt on Ti screen anode." Any bets on dark blue for *D2O* anode glow? >PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE >The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News >Number 246 October 25, 1995 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein > >ISOTOPE EFFECTS IN SONOLUMINESCENCE have been >observed by Seth Putterman and Robert Hiller at UCLA. >Sonoluminescence (SL) is a mysterious phenomenon in which acoustic >energy is transduced into light energy; high frequency sound waves >are absorbed by tiny bubbles in water. The bubbles, oscillating >wildly, re-emit the energy in the form of tiny, focused light bursts. >Many things about SL are still unknown, such as the nature of the >light-emitting process or why the light pulses are so short. The >UCLA work has established one new fact: substituting heavy water >(D2O) for ordinary water (H2O) as the liquid medium causes the SL >spectrum to dramatically shift from ultraviolet toward red >wavelengths. This result seems to represent yet a new mystery. >According to the researchers, "The shift is remarkably large, >especially in view of the small difference in chemical and elastic >properties between light and heavy water." (Robert A. Hiller and >Seth Putterman, upcoming article in Physical Review Letters; >journalists can obtain copies from AIP Public Information, >physnews@aip.org) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 03:01:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BB1Rgo014048; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:01:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BB1QhN014019; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:01:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:01:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: 10 meter Electrolytic Cell Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:59:18 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65662 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Old vorts may remember the electrolytic cell experiment I posted here in 1996 where the plates were separated by 10 meters. One point of interest is that it shows the possibility of electrons being a minority charge carrier in the electrolyte. Also, it mentions the Faradaic rectification effect, which is a low voltage electrolytic cell rectification effect. The scope photos were stop-action retrieved from a video camera using an old Mac. See: . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 05:48:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BDm91A012638; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:48:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BDm39x012604; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:48:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:48:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:47:52 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E4CCC07BC60B-C0C-2430@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E46E460362B5-1FF4-E257@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> <04eb01c6165e$f171ecf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <04eb01c6165e$f171ecf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0BDm1T7012494 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65663 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just call me Isaac. Actually, elle est française! She is also extreeeemely liberal and I tend to lean right of center. But the one that is gone should not be confused with the American one which stayed who also speaks French and is married to a Jewish Frenchman. (Hah! Missed one you Vichy ba$tards!) -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Aha, the whole-ram escapes being burned on the OU altar.. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 06:34:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BEYg09031966; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:34:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BEYf4s031942; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:34:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:34:27 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0BEYaaO031858 Resent-Message-ID: <1NjlZC.A.8yH.AeRxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65664 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d   My data is on my office computer. It is damned hard to find the unit cell length of Pd!! I have a NRL report which shows 4% swelling of the Pd lattice during hydridization (made that word up!). I'll give you those refs tomorrow.  <><><><><><><><><> Here's the reference on Pd radius: http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/Pd-en.htm although I now see that wikipedia has different numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium Here's the xtal dimensions: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/xtal.html And here's the reference from NRL on the lattice expansion: http://www.mse.ncsu.edu/CompMatSci/papers/MH1_science.pdf Note the date of 4/1989, the heyday of CF! I'll continue reading your paper when I finish the staffing reports. Managing sux; but, trying to manage engineers is like herding cats. :-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 07:28:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BFRPQ0027173; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:27:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BFRIsG027092; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:27:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:27:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601111526.k0BFQhIa077111@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:26:43 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: orionworks@charter.net Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Recent article in The Guardian gets "history" of CF wrong Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_37ca2b574469a6f66b2aecd38f6748cf" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65665 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_37ca2b574469a6f66b2aecd38f6748cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Title: "Wishful thinking" By Tim Radford Wednesday January 11, 2006 The Guardian See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article/0,2763,1683693,00.html http://tinyurl.com/72m2z Specifically, half way down the article: **************************************** "In 1988, two distinguished physicists based in Utah claimed to have achieved cold fusion: the spontaneous creation of thermonuclear energy. For 50 years, scientists have dreamed of building a reactor to deliver unlimited electricity: the technology has so far delivered sustained energy for only fractions of a second. The Utah team claimed to have obtained better results by running an electric current through water and a lump of palladium in a jar. Huge sums of money were promised for research and the cold fusion stampede began. Bizarrely, one or two other university groups, anxious to gain a lead in the field, announced that they too had observed cold fusion. It took several months to prove that the Utah results were entirely illusory." **************************************** Actually, The Guardian, in recent history has been rather favorable in its presentation of controversial alternative energy claims. I believe back in November they published a (reasonably) favorable report on Dr. Mill's work, with the statement that a prototype of some sort might be unveiled to the public sometime later this year. I guess to get the real scoop one must quietly lurk about in the hydrino friendly SCQM Group, which Dr. Mill's appears to frequently post in: See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/ But getting back to F&P, yet again, it would appear to be another piece of inaccurate news. I can only imagine that decades from now students getting degrees in "History of Science" may find this time period fascinating. Regards, --- Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_37ca2b574469a6f66b2aecd38f6748cf Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Title: "Wishful thinking"

By Tim Radford
Wednesday January 11, 2006
The Guardian

See:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article/0,2763,1683693,00.html

http://tinyurl.com/72m2z

Specifically, half way down the article:

****************************************

"In 1988, two distinguished physicists based in Utah claimed to have achiev= ed cold fusion: the spontaneous creation of thermonuclear energy. For 50 ye= ars, scientists have dreamed of building a reactor to deliver unlimited ele= ctricity: the technology has so far delivered sustained energy for only fra= ctions of a second. The Utah team claimed to have obtained better results b= y running an electric current through water and a lump of palladium in a ja= r. Huge sums of money were promised for research and the cold fusion stampe= de began. Bizarrely, one or two other university groups, anxious to gain a = lead in the field, announced that they too had observed cold fusion. It too= k several months to prove that the Utah results were entirely illusory."

****************************************

Actually, The Guardian, in recent history has been rather favorable in its = presentation of controversial alternative energy claims. I believe back in = November they published a (reasonably) favorable report on Dr. Mill's work,= with the statement that a prototype of some sort might be unveiled to the = public sometime later this year. I guess to get the real scoop one must qui= etly lurk about in the hydrino friendly SCQM Group, which Dr. Mill's appear= s to frequently post in:

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/

But getting back to F&P, yet again, it would appear to be another piece of = inaccurate news. I can only imagine that decades from now students getting = degrees in "History of Science" may find this time period fascinating.

Regards,

---
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com --=_37ca2b574469a6f66b2aecd38f6748cf-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 10:59:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BIweM4023475; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BIwWmk023398; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:58:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0C3F1F11-429A-4D81-B611-43F8F8BD1A32@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:56:15 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65666 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the info. Looks like webelements has the right stuff. Their Pd-Pd bond length roughly agrees with the one I used, but the atomic radius differs a bit, depending on which one you use. It will take me a while to respond further, as I have some chores to do. The general conclusions of the AEH paper still seem about right, it is just a matter of moving up or down the table depending on the values used. Also, temperature has not been considered. Horace Heffner On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:34 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hohlrauml6d > > My data is on my office computer. It is damned hard to find the > unit cell length of Pd!! I have a NRL report which shows 4% > swelling of the Pd lattice during hydridization (made that word > up!). I'll give you those refs tomorrow. > > <><><><><><><><><> > > Here's the reference on Pd radius: > > http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/Pd-en.htm > > although I now see that wikipedia has different numbers: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium > > Here's the xtal dimensions: > > http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/xtal.html > > And here's the reference from NRL on the lattice expansion: > > http://www.mse.ncsu.edu/CompMatSci/papers/MH1_science.pdf > > Note the date of 4/1989, the heyday of CF! Yes. I seem to remember this article too. > > I'll continue reading your paper when I finish the staffing > reports. Managing sux; but, trying to manage engineers is like > herding cats. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 12:32:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BKVpAT009121; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:31:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BKVlbF009082; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:31:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:31:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111152606.03451a28@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:30:08 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Stupid, but funny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65667 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: . . . but stupid. My sister sent me this: http://www.koreus.com/files/200409/news-report-from-iraq.html I need a break from the Sturm und Drang of these latest press attacks against cold fusion. What a bunch of blockheads these reporters are! Actually, the attacks may be doing some good. We are getting a lot of traffic this week, although most of it seems becoming from Europe, so I doubt it has anything to do with the Washington Post or Time magazine. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 14:08:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BM0n9S028196; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:08:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BLxZRB027103; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:59:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:59:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111165249.0349db08@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111164743.0349a9d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:53:31 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message to Lemonick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25978703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65668 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_25978703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Our discussion summarized here Dear Mr. Lemonick, I enjoyed our discussion yesterday. I summarized it here: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm Please let me know if you have anything to add, or any objection or clarification. If you would like to add a statement, please send it and I will append it verbatim. Unlike Time magazine, I am anxious to give all correspondents an opportunity to express their views on this important subject. - Jed Rothwell --=====================_25978703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Our discussion summarized here

Dear Mr. Lemonick,

I enjoyed our discussion yesterday. I summarized it here:

http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm

Please let me know if you have anything to add, or any objection or clarification. If you would like to add a statement, please send it and I will append it verbatim. Unlike Time magazine, I am anxious to give all correspondents an opportunity to express their views on this important subject.

- Jed Rothwell
--=====================_25978703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 14:51:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BMow24024126; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:51:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BMos1Z024088; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:50:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111173610.0347c5c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:50:37 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Message to Lemonick In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111165249.0349db08@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111165249.0349db08@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65669 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I hate to admit this, but there are few pleasures in life more acute than this -- First, to eviscerate someone in print: "We suggested he should review the relevant literature before making statements about scientific research. . . . Lemonick responded with a series of unfounded and increasingly bizarre statements . . ." Second, to send the victim a friendly little note thanking him for his comments and inviting him to read the attack: >I enjoyed our discussion yesterday. I summarized it here: > >http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm > >Please let me know if you have anything to add, or any objection or >clarification. . . . Perhaps this pleasure is a form of schadenfreude. (I seem to be on a German borrow work kick today.) Not really though, because I doubt that Lemonick will bother to read my News item, and he would not care about it in any case. He probably does not even realize it is an insult to be told: "you should familiarize yourself with research before commenting on it." Actually, most skeptics boldly disagree -- they see no need to read. They know the answers before you ask the question. And people like Lemonick are not insulted, merely puzzled. They scratch their heads and wonder why anyone would bother to read boring scientific papers before writing a column about cold fusion, when you can find the whole story already laid out in previous issues of Time. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 15:45:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0BNitZk026998; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:44:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0BNirHE026973; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:44:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:44:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:43:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Message to Lemonick In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060111173610.0347c5c0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65670 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I hate to admit this, but there are few pleasures in life more acute > than this -- > > First, to eviscerate someone in print: > > "We suggested he should review the relevant literature before making > statements about scientific research. . . . Lemonick responded with a > series of unfounded and increasingly bizarre statements . . ." > > Second, to send the victim a friendly little note thanking him for > his comments and inviting him to read the attack: > >> I enjoyed our discussion yesterday. I summarized it here: >> >> http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm >> >> Please let me know if you have anything to add, or any objection or >> clarification. . . . > > > Perhaps this pleasure is a form of schadenfreude. (I seem to be on a > German borrow work kick today.) Not really though, because I doubt > that Lemonick will bother to read my News item, and he would not care > about it in any case. He probably does not even realize it is an > insult to be told: "you should familiarize yourself with research > before commenting on it." It is more accurate to say you admonished him instead of saying you insulted him. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 17:43:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0C1hYiC003730; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:43:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0C1hS4e003669; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:43:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c61719$90d3d1e0$1f027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Message to Lemonick Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:43:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65671 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Having been insulted in better company than Time Magzin is an honor. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Message to Lemonick > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> I hate to admit this, but there are few pleasures in life more acute >> than this -- >> >> First, to eviscerate someone in print: >> >> "We suggested he should review the relevant literature before making >> statements about scientific research. . . . Lemonick responded with a >> series of unfounded and increasingly bizarre statements . . ." >> >> Second, to send the victim a friendly little note thanking him for >> his comments and inviting him to read the attack: >> >>> I enjoyed our discussion yesterday. I summarized it here: >>> >>> http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm >>> >>> Please let me know if you have anything to add, or any objection or >>> clarification. . . . >> >> >> Perhaps this pleasure is a form of schadenfreude. (I seem to be on a >> German borrow work kick today.) Not really though, because I doubt >> that Lemonick will bother to read my News item, and he would not care >> about it in any case. He probably does not even realize it is an >> insult to be told: "you should familiarize yourself with research >> before commenting on it." > > > It is more accurate to say you admonished him instead of saying you > insulted him. > > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 19:06:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0C36BpZ020569; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:06:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0C34TGQ019061; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:04:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:04:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:03:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20060110112530.00a12268@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060110112530.00a12268@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:03:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0C34FkU018908 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65672 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:25:30 +0000: Hi, [snip] >On the other hand it could be because it collects energy, not from >the transverse wave but from the much shorter longitudinal wave. [snip] Why would the longitudinal wave be shorter? If one expects the velocity to be higher, then the frequency would have to be very much higher to still get a longer wave. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 19:53:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0C3qt6w015989; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:52:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0C3qrUo015969; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:52:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:52:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:52:43 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E542C6BEA95E-1E18-4956@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: A Use for Junk DNA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <95Z_sC.A.d5D.VKdxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65673 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Teemosis, somewhat off topic, but interesting: http://thesecondevolution.com/ ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 11 23:35:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0C7Z0ml008659; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:35:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0C7YqnB008610; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:34:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:34:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060112073443618.96F445800082@mwinf3108.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060112073444.00a1c230@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:34:44 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: What's the story with light water CF, anyway? Resent-Message-ID: <_gmpKC.A.cGC.bagxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65674 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:03 pm 12/01/2006 +1100, Robin wrote: >In reply to Grimer's message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:25:30 +0000: > Hi, > [snip] >> On the other hand it could be because it collects energy, not from >> the transverse wave but from the much shorter longitudinal wave. > [snip] > Why would the longitudinal wave be shorter? If one expects the > velocity to be higher, then the frequency would have to be very > much higher to still get a longer wave. Go to the Batman site, Robin, (B-atm. Group) and all will be revealed if you read the relevant posts starting January 1st 2006. See if you can escape Gotham city before they lock us in the Arkham. I doubt it cos I've got the keys of the Batmobile. ;-) Cheers, Frank van Damme (or I would be if my grandmother had been my grandfather) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 02:30:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CAU5AQ015543; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:30:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CA4eIP007389; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:04:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:04:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 01:02:35 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65675 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, I checked my bond lengths against webelements.com. In all cases my bond length data matched theirs to their precision, except for a minor difference with Pt, which I fixed in Table 1 of the following: . This difference is not significant. However, I noticed in the crystallography page they referred to a CPP structure, not FCC for Pd. In this structure the atomic "balls" all push right up against each other. In other words, their atomic radii are equal to the bond length divided by 2. I computed Table 1 on this basis. As you can see, both the tetrahedral space and face hole tend to be even more cramped than by the FCC assumtions. This was especially true for Pb. Using the webelements van der Walls radius of 1.2 angstroms, there is no way atomic hydrogen fits *anywhere* in any CPP element. Using the covalent radius of 37 a single atom of an H2 molecule still fits a tetrahedral space, but a full H2 molecule doesn't quite fit. This still permits the "anvil" effect portrayed in the original AEH paper. If we use the emperical atomic radius of 25 pm, however, atomic hydrogen fits easily into any tetrahedral space, but still can only diffuse through Sr, Pb, Ca, Yb, and Ce without tunneling. I don't see these refinements, if they be such, as significant to the overall theory. Horace Heffner On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:34 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > Here's the reference on Pd radius: > > http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/Pd-en.htm > > although I now see that wikipedia has different numbers: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium > > Here's the xtal dimensions: > > http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/xtal.html > > And here's the reference from NRL on the lattice expansion: > > http://www.mse.ncsu.edu/CompMatSci/papers/MH1_science.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 04:33:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CCVS9q010046; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 04:33:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CBYGuh016421; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:34:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:34:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rH1Ovxz62DSd5KsZQTr8itg6M0QzC3RHvtU/OgKEL2RG+u13wv8eyTCoIGoWsP95; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006141211236231@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: One-Man Hovercraft for Around The Farm. US 5,503,351 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 04:23:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406d2d0845d1ec22700a8e7028a46cff31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65676 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you build it.... :-) I was scooped by this 1996 patent (US 5,503,351) for using a 10-15 HP lawnmower engine and radial diffuser plates at the tip of the 4 ft diameter x 18 inch blade, 600 RPM,(~12,000 CFM) radial fan (squirrel cage wheel?) to get torque cancelation and better airflow over the ~ 12 foot diameter x 4 foot chord airfoil for about 1/2 ton or more lift. Note: A 7,000 CFM "Swamp Cooler" squirrel-cage blower is used on large homes, that requires a 3/4 HP motor, but doesn't have the ~ 85 MPH tip speed at it's operating RPM. http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm NASA Airfoil Calculator: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Air Density-Altitude Calculator: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm WARNING: DO NOT ATTEMPT FLIGHT ON WINDY DAYS UNLESS YOU WANT TO MAKE STRANGE "CROP CIRCLES" IN THE CORNFIELD! Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If you build it.... :-)
 
I was scooped by this 1996 patent (US 5,503,351) for using a
10-15 HP lawnmower engine and radial diffuser plates at the tip
of the 4 ft diameter x 18 inch blade, 600 RPM,(~12,000 CFM)
radial fan (squirrel cage wheel?) to get torque cancelation and better
airflow over the ~ 12 foot diameter x 4 foot chord airfoil for about 1/2 ton or more lift.
 
Note: A 7,000 CFM "Swamp Cooler" squirrel-cage blower is used on large homes,
that requires a 3/4 HP motor, but doesn't have the ~ 85 MPH tip speed at it's operating RPM.
 
 
NASA Airfoil Calculator:
 
 
Air Density-Altitude Calculator:
 
 
WARNING: DO NOT ATTEMPT FLIGHT ON WINDY DAYS
UNLESS YOU WANT TO MAKE STRANGE "CROP CIRCLES" IN THE CORNFIELD!
 
Fred
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 07:20:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CFJwrY022669; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:20:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CFJrFP022614; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:19:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:19:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:04:13 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65677 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's interesting about the xtal structure. Many sites have it wrong including: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium The AEH theory you present makes some very good points. Most of the energy in the ZPF lies in the upper frequencies and some mechanism operating on those small wavelengths is necessary to extract that energy. You also explain how we can see excess energy from the Ni lattice, something which has always bothered me. And if atomic H cannot enter the lattice structure without ionization, your argument looks quite solid. It was Penn State who recently manipulted H within the lattice of Pd: http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Weiss12-2005.htm So, one wants to explore the migration of the H nucleus into the lattice. If we use the forumula R=Ro*A^1/3 assume the proton is a sphere (although it is really bound quarks) we get a radius of 1.2*10^-18 cm for the nucleus; which certainly fits into the lattice. Furthering this thought, I see that you used Puthoff's ZPE virtual mass density of 10^94 g/cm^3 based on the Planck cutoff wavelength. If we really jump out on a limb here and use the proton mass of 1.6726^10-30 g, we can calculate the mass density of the proton. Clearly the ZPF is many orders of magnitude higher than the mass density of the proton. This certainly jives with others concept of the aether at any instant in time. It also lends justification to Grimer's Beta-atmosphere analogy. The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could explain some recent cosmic anomalies. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner However, I noticed in the crystallography page they referred to a CPP structure, not FCC for Pd. In this structure the atomic "balls" all push right up against each other. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 07:30:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CFTXoH026428; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:29:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CFTUt9026405; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:29:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:29:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:27:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <9N9kbD.A.ccG.aXnxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65678 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies. The answer I think, in the presence of hydrogen, has to be *strange quarks*, and not necessarily even "virtual". I read a recent article (can't find it right now) that found the magnetic field of the proton is due in modest part (about 10-15 percent if I recall correctly) to the periodic creation and annihilation of strange quark pairs in the close vicinity of the proton. Yes, it was a serious article! Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 12:12:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CKBp81017891; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:11:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CK8Wh8016272; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:08:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:07:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65679 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [I sent this at 1:21 EST and never saw it come back, so resending it. Apologies if it arrives twice.] Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how >> Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very >> likely appear in the paper > > > Mizuno used a variety of different methods to measure power, including a > Hewlett-Packard computer-based instrument and a Yokogawa model PZ4000. > When he used a different methods at the same time they agreed to within 1%. > > See: > > http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf I looked at those, and one or two other papers I found digging around (still haven't found a copy of the original "excess energy" paper from IE #20 -- I suppose I'll have to write to them and ask for a reprint). From the technique documented in the papers I saw, Mizuno is measuring the power input to the cells during glow-discharge electrolysis using the HP data logger (current measured via recording voltage across a shunt). HOWEVER he also has _calibrated_ the HP readings against either the Yokogawa PZ4000 or a Yokogawa WT130 (which is a somewhat lower perf wattmeter than the PZ4000). In one paper he mentions a 5-second calibration period; in another he mentions a 1-minute calibration period. I could see no indication that the Yokogawa power meters are used for data acquisition during the glow-discharge period, nor any indication that the data logging approach was calibrated during glow-discharge operation. This doesn't say he didn't do that; it just says that's not what I saw in the papers. If you know conclusively whether he's ever used the big Yokogawa for data acquisition during a full run I'd be interested -- it's presumably capable of being used that way, though I haven't dug far enough into the datasheet to be sure. This is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, one thing Little did is show the actual current signal during glow discharge measured with a 100 MHz scope (across a shunt? disrecall), and it appeared to have a lot of energy up around 100 MHz or higher. Little used bypass caps to keep that out of his Clarke-Hess power meter, which tops out at around 400 KHz. This suggests that a data logging system which is accurate during ordinary electrolysis might or might not give a correct reading once the glow discharge starts. Mizuno's power supply, the EX-1500H, nominally rated at something like 0.1% accuracy, has a frequency response in constant-voltage mode of about 1 KHz, so it, also, may be weirded out by the extreme HF nature of the load. Second, I keep choking on the fact that this is light water on a tungsten electrode. It runs head on into Ed Storms's observation that light water reactions produce transmutation products (which Mizuno has seen) but little excess heat. Why is Mizuno seeing so much excess heat, using light water? What reaction path could be taking place in his cells that very few others can evoke? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 13:58:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CLvgtF015678; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:57:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CLvemD015646; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:57:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:57:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C69E29.4060302@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:21:29 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65681 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> So, after reading this, I got to wondering, and now I'd like to know how >> Mizuno's power measurements were done, and that information would very >> likely appear in the paper > > > Mizuno used a variety of different methods to measure power, including a > Hewlett-Packard computer-based instrument and a Yokogawa model PZ4000. > When he used a different methods at the same time they agreed to within 1%. > > See: > > http://www.lenr-canr.org//acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf I looked at those, and one or two other papers I found digging around (still haven't found a copy of the original "excess energy" paper from IE #20 -- I suppose I'll have to write to them and ask for a reprint). From the technique documented in the papers I saw, Mizuno is measuring the power input to the cells during glow-discharge electrolysis using the HP data logger (current measured via recording voltage across a shunt). HOWEVER he also has _calibrated_ the HP readings against either the Yokogawa PZ4000 or a Yokogawa WT130 (which is a somewhat lower perf wattmeter). In one paper he mentions a 5-second calibration period; in another he mentions a 1-minute calibration period. I could see no indication that the Yokogawa power meters are used for data acquisition during the glow-discharge period, nor any indication that the data logging approach was calibrated during glow-discharge operation. This doesn't say he wasn't doing that; it just says that's not what I saw in the papers. If you know conclusively whether he's ever used the big Yokogawa for data acquisition during a full run I'd be interested -- it's presumably capable of being used that way, though I haven't dug far enough into the datasheet to be sure. This is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, one thing Little did is show the actual current signal during glow discharge measured with a 100 MHz scope (across a shunt? disrecall), and it appeared to have a lot of energy up around 100 MHz or higher. Little used bypass caps to keep that out of his Clarke-Hess power meter, which tops out at around 400 KHz. This suggests that a data logging system which is accurate during ordinary electrolysis might or might not give a correct reading once the glow discharge starts. Mizuno's power supply, the EX-1500H, nominally rated at something like 0.1% accuracy, has a frequency response in constant-voltage mode of about 1 KHz, so it, also, may be weirded out by the extreme HF nature of the load. Second, I keep choking on the fact that this is light water on a tungsten electrode. It runs head on into Ed Storms's observation that light water reactions produce transmutation products (which Mizuno has seen) but little excess heat. Why is Mizuno seeing so much excess heat, using light water? What reaction path could be taking place in his cells that very few others can evoke? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 14:17:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CMH6d8028201; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:17:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CMH3He028138; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:17:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060112170603.0342df10@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:09:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper In-Reply-To: <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65682 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I could see no indication that the Yokogawa power meters are used for >data acquisition during the glow-discharge period . . . It is one meter (not meters), and it is used for data acquisition during the run. Why wouldn't he use it? It cost him an arm and a leg. Actually, as I recall, at the latter stages of this research he no longer bothered to use the HP gadget. The HP was spontaneously resetting and going out to lunch when I was there, and I think he trashed it after that. He depended solely upon the Yokogawa, which outputs the data in all kinds of convenient formats. It interfaces to the computer, kind of like a super sophisticated version of the HP. He has not done this experiment much since the cell blew up on him last year. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 15:18:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CN5hFF024224; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:18:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CMpQZU017171; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:51:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:51:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:50:22 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0CMpMTu017045 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65683 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I did some searching for the strange quark article and came across this: http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8566 excerpt: "But it is still not clear what dark energy is. Theories range from a "vacuum" energy of space itself which is fixed in value - an idea Einstein proposed as the "cosmological constant" - to more exotic possibilities, such as quintessence - a type of energy field that can vary over space and time. So far, supernova studies have supported the cosmological constant - one recent study of 70 supernovae reported that the strength of repulsion given by dark energy could not have changed by more than about 20% over the past eight billion years. Reliable data But supernovae are too dim to be seen over the largest cosmic distances. So some astronomers argue that gamma-ray bursts (GRBs) - violent, fleeting explosions that accompany the deaths of some massive stars - are better signposts. At about 100 times brighter than supernovae, they can be seen at much greater distances. Now, astronomer Bradley Schaefer of Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, US, has used observations of 52 GRBs to suggest that dark energy has changed over time. In the largest GRB study of its kind, Schaefer found that 12 of the most distant GRBs - lying nearly 13 billion light years away - were all brighter than expected, suggesting the universe was expanding at a slower rate than it is today. He says the fact that all 12 were brighter than would be predicted by a cosmological constant increases his confidence in the data. "It's like if you flip a coin and get 12 heads in a row," Schaefer told New Scientist. View several graphs of his results, here. He says that rather than pushing space apart, dark energy appears to have changed over time and was in fact drawing space together in the early universe. What that means for the fate of the universe is not clear, but it seems to open a Pandora's box of outlandish possibilities for dark energy, he says: "With quintessence, you can do anything you want." Standard candles But other researchers are yet to be convinced. Type Ia supernovae all explode with the same intrinsic energy, making them ideal "standard candles" to measure distance. But GRBs explode with a variety of energies. So Schaefer used five observed properties of the bursts - such as how their brightness changes over time - to estimate their intrinsic brightness, and thus their distance." Now a change in the fermion and boson ratio would change the cosmological constant. It might be non-homogenous and time variant. It's likely anything but constant. We might need a "new candle" with which to measure or a different candle depending on which direction you look. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote:    >  > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies.    The answer I think, in the presence of hydrogen, has to be *strange quarks*, and not necessarily even "virtual". I read a recent article (can't find it right now) that found the magnetic field of the proton is due in modest part (about 10-15 percent if I recall correctly) to the periodic creation and annihilation of strange quark pairs in the close vicinity of the proton. Yes, it was a serious article!    Horace Heffner    ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 15:18:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CN5hFH024224; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:18:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CLfLDR005180; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:41:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:41:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008a01c617b8$7bfff0b0$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:40:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6af2JB.A.jQB.-zsxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65680 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Second, I keep choking on the fact that this is light water on a > tungsten electrode. It runs head on into Ed Storms's > observation that > light water reactions produce transmutation products (which > Mizuno has > seen) but little excess heat. Why is Mizuno seeing so much > excess heat, > using light water? What reaction path could be taking place in > his > cells that very few others can evoke? One possibility. Anytime there is electrolysis w/o radiation, there is always the possibility that the experiment has stumbled on a regime where electrolysis itself is catalytically OU (utilizing the Casimir force, for instance, or the hydrino reaction) and the excess heat seen is chemical - being the recombination of excess H and O... but this is less likely in an open cell, where there is no forced recombination. Transmutation products would indicate that some level of nuclear reaction occurs, but these are usually such tiny amounts that they could be indicative of a secondary reaction, which is not the real source of excess heat, and could even be the endothermic product of a QM tunneling 'balance sheet' or due to the end product of hydrogen 'shrinkage' if that is occurring. Mizuno's biggest problem, in my opinion, is having about 3-4 really good (either ongoing or incomplete) experiments - as in the current literature on LENR/CANR - like the cryogenic-neutron exp. especially - and yet not having the staff or resources to start eliminating some of the alternative ways in which excess energy, or in the case of the cryogenic D2 - neutrons - could be showing up... or even calculating the energy profile and mass of the transmutation products. In a perfect world, this guy would have a staff of dozens plodding away in an Edisonian approach. In a war-free USA, imagine what could have been done with some of that whopping one trillion dollar cost of the Iraq war ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 15:51:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0CNpE55018405; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:51:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0CNnZus017041; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <288.40157ca.30f844e2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:48:50 EST Subject: Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & Magnetic To Electromagnetic Energy) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1137109730" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65684 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1137109730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & Magnetic To Electromagnetic Energy) http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/coler.htm -------------------------------1137109730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & Magnetic To Electromagnetic E= nergy)
-------------------------------1137109730-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 17:14:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D1E31E002351; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:14:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D1E00c002306; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:14:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:14:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <282008D3-C59E-40E9-8F8A-1203C64A4EC8@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions (now about cosmology) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:11:49 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65685 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Trying this yet again! Am I in a black hole? A futile question ... On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:50 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > He says that rather than pushing space apart, dark energy appears > to have changed over time and was in fact drawing space together in > the early universe. What that means for the fate of the universe is > not clear, but it seems to open a Pandora's box of outlandish > possibilities for dark energy, he says: "With quintessence, you can > do anything you want." But this is exactly what gravimagnetic theory suggests, or at least I suggested. The furthest stars receed faster and thus the red shift of gravitational photons will get stronger, reducing the hold of the universe on them (gravitational photons attract rather than repel.) Also,the further away from the bang, the more gravitons are in transit, thus the less attraction to the center of the universe. Additionally, the gravimagnetic force (due to similar spins) wanes as the 1/d^4 with distance d, so that component disappears entirely. Furthher, the existence of the gravimagnetic force causes a misreading (too high) of the masses of close objects (and thus some component of dark matter - an illusion). Hopefully (if I remeber correctly) this is all spelled out quantitatively in: . One interesting upshot of this is that the outer regions part of the universe could expand forever, while the inner regions could be caught in an infinite contract-explode loop. I think this is was a new concept back when I first posted it. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 17:45:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D1ij3Z014923; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:44:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D1ieJ1014874; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:44:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:44:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0D836698-F6E2-433E-ABB7-1B5491629284@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Strange quarks in protons Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:42:28 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65686 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try: If that doesn't work go to and search on "strange quark". Some selected quotes: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The experiment, called G-Zero, was performed at Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility in Newport News, Va. Designed to probe proton structure, specifically the contribution of strange quarks, the experiment has involved an international group of 108 scientists from 19 institutions. Steve Williamson, a physicist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, is the experiment coordinator. "The G-Zero experiment provided a much broader view of the small- scale structure of the proton," said Doug Beck, a physicist at Illinois and spokesman for the experiment. "While our results agree with hints from previous experiments, the new findings are significantly more extensive and provide a much clearer picture." Beck will present the experimental results at a seminar at the Jefferson facility Friday morning. Also on Friday, the researchers will submit a paper describing the results to the journal Physical Review Letters. The paper will be posted on the physics archive (under "nuclear experiment") at www.arxiv.org. The centerpiece of the G-Zero experiment is a doughnut-shaped superconducting magnet 14 feet in diameter that was designed and tested by physicists at Illinois including Ron Laszewski, now retired. The 100,000-pound magnet took three years to build. In the experiment, an intense beam of polarized electrons was scattered off liquid hydrogen targets located in the magnet's core. Detectors, mounted around the perimeter of the magnet, recorded the number and position of the scattered particles. The researchers then used mathematical models to retrace the particles' paths to determine their momenta. "There is a lot of energy inside a proton," Beck said. "Some of that energy can change back and forth into particles called strange quarks." Unlike the three quarks (two "up" and one "down") that are always present in a proton, strange quarks can pop in and out of existence. "Because of the equivalence of mass and energy, the energy fields in the proton can sometimes manifest themselves as these 'part-time' quarks," Beck said. "This is the first time we observed strange quarks in this context, and it is the first time we measured how often this energy manifested itself as particles under normal circumstances." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 18:01:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D21AAQ023390; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:01:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D218qi023358; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:01:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <6d.53baf3c9.30f863d3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:00:51 EST Subject: Re: Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & Magnetic To Electromagnetic Energy) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1137117651" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <9PVlcC.A.2sF.inwxDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65687 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1137117651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:52:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, ThomasClark123@aol.com writes: Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & Magnetic To Electromagnetic Energy) http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/coler.htm At the same above website is given a link to a pdf file http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/master.pdf which gives the plans and drawings of magnetic technologies such as Magnetic Motors, Water Purifiers, Magnetic Light Boxes, Generators, and a special metal alloy (TiAlCo-B) that works with magnetic technologies. The authors claim that the ozone is really a neutrino energy field which is harmed by to much electrical energies from electrical technologies, whereas magnetic technologies used instead of electrical may be more friendly to the neutrino ozone field and may repair it. The technologies were given to us as a gift by the Creator. -------------------------------1137117651 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:52:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, ThomasCl= ark123@aol.com writes:
Hans Coler Converter (Gravitational & M= agnetic To Electromagnetic Energy)
At the same above website is given a link to a pdf file  http://users.rcn.com/zap.dn= ai/master.pdf    which gives the plans and drawings of ma= gnetic technologies such as Magnetic Motors, Water Purifiers, Magnetic Light= Boxes, Generators, and a special metal alloy (TiAlCo-B) that work= s with magnetic technologies. The authors claim that the ozone is really a n= eutrino energy field which is harmed by to much electrical energies from ele= ctrical technologies, whereas magnetic technologies used instead of electric= al may be more friendly to the neutrino ozone field and may repair it.&= nbsp; The technologies were given to us as a gift by the Creator. -------------------------------1137117651-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 18:28:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D2S85b030120; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D2S33c030077; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:48:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies. Of course I have my own pet theory as to at least some of the explanation of dark energy, etc. 8^) See and find "dark". Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 18:34:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D2YC8a031860; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:34:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D2Y6uh031779; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:34:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:34:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C71193.4000101@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:33:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060112170603.0342df10@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060112170603.0342df10@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65689 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, I think you answered my question here. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> I could see no indication that the Yokogawa power meters are used for >> data acquisition during the glow-discharge period . . . > > > It is one meter (not meters), It really seems to be meterS. According to his papers he used both a Yakagawa PZ4000 and a Yakagawa WT130 at various times. They are both power meters but the PZ4000 is substantially more sophisticated and wider bandwidth. I would presume the WT130 came first and was later replaced with the PZ4000 but that is just a guess. > and it is used for data acquisition during > the run. Why wouldn't he use it? It cost him an arm and a leg. I understand that. My question was caused by the papers in which he stated that he "calibrated" the data acquisition system using the Yakagawa meter (one or the other) but then used an Advantest R7326-B data logger to get voltage and current numbers into his computer; the numbers apparently weren't sourced from either Yakagawa meter, as far as I could tell in the papers. No mention was made of an HP device in the papers I looked at. I believe the the Advantest uses an IEEE-488 bus interface. The data sheet for the Yagakawa PZ4000 doesn't mention IEEE-488 but _does_ mention a SCSI interface. If that meter is SCSI-only that could have been a possible reason why he might _not_ have immediately replaced the old data logger with it; SCSI's fast but the problems and limitations of SCSI can make setting it up not quite a snap. Or maybe the WT130 had no computer interface and the "calibration" business was something he dispensed with when he got the PZ4000. Whatever... > Actually, as I recall, at the latter stages of this research he no > longer bothered to use the HP gadget. The HP was spontaneously resetting > and going out to lunch when I was there, and I think he trashed it after > that. He depended solely upon the Yokogawa, which outputs the data in > all kinds of convenient formats. Thanks, that statement pretty much puts to bed the issue I was raising. > It interfaces to the computer, kind of > like a super sophisticated version of the HP. Yes, and with a SCSI interface it can go like blazes ... assuming the computer can keep up, and assuming the cables aren't too long, and assuming you've got the correct "apparently compatible" SCSI cable so the bits don't all fall out of the cable onto the floor and cause the bus to hang up... :-) SCSI's great when it works. > He has not done this experiment much since the cell blew up on him last > year. Sounds wise. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 18:36:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D2S85b030120; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D2S33c030077; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:48:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies. Of course I have my own pet theory as to at least some of the explanation of dark energy, etc. 8^) See and find "dark". Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 19:08:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D36lKM014979; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:06:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D36clS014906; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:06:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43C71926.6060504@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:06:14 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Looking for an incandescent-W excess-heat Mizuno paper References: <43C415F6.4020208@pobox.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060110153532.03472ec0@mindspring.com> <43C6B71E.6010304@pobox.com> <008a01c617b8$7bfff0b0$1714fea9@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <008a01c617b8$7bfff0b0$1714fea9@NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65690 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Second, I keep choking on the fact that this is light water on a >> tungsten electrode. It runs head on into Ed Storms's observation that >> light water reactions produce transmutation products (which Mizuno has >> seen) but little excess heat. Why is Mizuno seeing so much excess heat, >> using light water? What reaction path could be taking place in his >> cells that very few others can evoke? > > > One possibility. Anytime there is electrolysis w/o radiation, there is > always the possibility that the experiment has stumbled on a regime > where electrolysis itself is catalytically OU (utilizing the Casimir > force, for instance, or the hydrino reaction) and the excess heat seen > is chemical - being the recombination of excess H and O... but this is > less likely in an open cell, where there is no forced recombination. I'd have to double check the numbers, but some of his experiments are so far over unity that I don't think you could account for it that way. In any case he doesn't recombine the O and H but rather lets it go and accounts for it in the energy balance computation. These experiments are pretty violent; there's no way he could use a sealed cell. I find it really frustrating that the Little experiments ended on such a vague note. After reading the summaries on Vortex I had the impression that Little had just totally bolixed it so it was no surprise that it didn't work. But when I read the account on the EarthTech website, that didn't seem to be the case at all -- contrary to the mistaken impression I had formed, Little never used an opaque cell for the incandescent W experiments (his initial calorimeter had a sight hole, and later he dispensed with the calorimeter entirely to try to fully duplicate Mizuno's setup), he never used anything but platinum for the anode, he always let the run go for a reasonable time (I didn't see any sign of 3.5 minute runs in his descriptions, which I thought I had seen mentioned here), he used some cathodes from Mizuno's lab, some of Little's cathodes were tested by Mizuno and found to produce excess energy so the cathode wasn't the problem anyway, and none the less, the experiments didn't work. He did something like 15 or 20 runs all together, and they all showed energy-out == energy-in within a few percent, save for one which showed a loss (not gain!) of something like 7%. Hands-on observation by either Little of Mizuno or Mizuno of Little could have settled the issue, one would think, but that kind of thing isn't easy or cheap to arrange even if both parties want to do it and I'm not at all sure they did. By the way, Little also blew up two or three cells in the course of tracking down the identity of the "excess gas", as a result of flash-back from an external recombiner to the headspace of the cell. But the calorimeter contained the explosions and nobody got hurt; it just messed up the innards of the cell. Later, with a flame arrester in place to protect the cell, he had any number of explosions inside the recombiner, which apparently did no damage. The contrast with Mizuno's explosion is striking -- it makes one wonder if that really was just an ordinary hydrogen/oxygen explosion, or if there was something more going on. > Transmutation products would indicate that some level of nuclear > reaction occurs, but these are usually such tiny amounts that they could > be indicative of a secondary reaction, which is not the real source of > excess heat, and could even be the endothermic product of a QM tunneling > 'balance sheet' or due to the end product of hydrogen 'shrinkage' if > that is occurring. > > Mizuno's biggest problem, in my opinion, is having about 3-4 really good > (either ongoing or incomplete) experiments - as in the current > literature on LENR/CANR - like the cryogenic-neutron exp. especially - > and yet not having the staff or resources to start eliminating some of > the alternative ways in which excess energy, or in the case of the > cryogenic D2 - neutrons - could be showing up... or even calculating the > energy profile and mass of the transmutation products. In a perfect > world, this guy would have a staff of dozens plodding away in an > Edisonian approach. Indeed! He does an awful lot with awfully little. It's easy to throw peanut shells from up here in the peanut gallery but the most I've ever done with electrochemistry is copper-plate a nickel, and it didn't turn out very well, at that. > In a war-free USA, imagine what could have been done with some of that > whopping one trillion dollar cost of the Iraq war ... Yes, and maybe our next Thomas Edison was one of the 2000+ who didn't come back. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 20:11:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D2S85b030120; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D2S33c030077; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:48:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies. Of course I have my own pet theory as to at least some of the explanation of dark energy, etc. 8^) See and find "dark". Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 20:21:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D4KwAC013874; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:21:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D4KvQ6013861; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:20:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:20:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: One-Man Hovercraft for Around The Farm. US 5,503,351 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060113035330.E7D16109EC5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:53:30 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65691 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: > I was scooped by this 1996 patent (US 5,503,351) for using a > 10-15 HP lawnmower engine and radial diffuser plates at the tip > of the 4 ft diameter x 18 inch blade, 600 RPM,(~12,000 CFM) > radial fan (squirrel cage wheel?) to get torque cancelation and better > airflow over the ~ 12 foot diameter x 4 foot chord airfoil for about 1/2 > ton or more lift. > Note: A 7,000 CFM "Swamp Cooler" squirrel-cage blower is used on large homes, > that requires a 3/4 HP motor, but doesn't have the ~ 85 MPH tip speed at it's > operating RPM. I dunno, Fred, this might be a poor substitute for one of your gas filled pogo sticks. Got any of those left? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 20:26:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D4PiA6016622; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:25:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D4PXnO016535; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:25:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:22:40 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65692 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Trying this again: ********************************************** ** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY ** ** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE ** ********************************************** The original message was received at Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:50:04 -0900 (AKST) from rdbck-1450.palmer.mtaonline.net [64.4.225.183] ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred Warning: message still undelivered after 6 hours Will keep trying until message is 12 hours old Reporting-MTA: dns; eng-prv.mtaonline.net Arrival-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:50:04 -0900 (AKST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com Action: delayed Status: 4.4.2 Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:17:20 -0900 (AKST) Will-Retry-Until: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:50:04 -0900 (AKST) From: Horace Heffner Date: January 12, 2006 6:48:11 AM AKST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > The current cosmic argument on the ZPF is whether it is dominated > by virtual fermions or virtual bosons. The former would represent > "dark energy" and the latter "dark matter". Their ratio could > explain some recent cosmic anomalies. > Of course I have my own pet theory as to at least some of the explanation of dark energy, etc. 8^) See and find "dark". Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 12 21:23:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0D5Mask022274; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:22:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0D5MRdk022233; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:22:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:22:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions (now about cosmology) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:16:07 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65693 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:50 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > He says that rather than pushing space apart, dark energy appears > to have changed over time and was in fact drawing space together in > the early universe. What that means for the fate of the universe is > not clear, but it seems to open a Pandora's box of outlandish > possibilities for dark energy, he says: "With quintessence, you can > do anything you want." But this is exactly what gravimagnetic theory suggests, or at least I suggested. The furthest stars receed faster and thus the red shift of gravitational photons will get stronger, reducing the hold of the universe on them (gravitational photons attract rather than repel.) Also,the further away from the bang, the more gravitons are in transit, thus the less attraction to the center of the universe. Additionally, the gravimagnetic force (due to similar spins) wanes as the 1/d^4 with distance d, so that component disappears entirely. Furthher, the existence of the gravimagnetic force causes a misreading (too high) of the masses of close objects (and thus some component of dark matter - an illusion). Hopefully (if I remeber correctly) this is all spelled out quantitatively in: . One interesting upshot of this is that the outer regions part of the universe could expand forever, while the inner regions could be caught in an infinite contract-explode loop. I think this is was a new concept back when I first posted it. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 02:35:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DAZTMr027455; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:35:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DAZRlJ027408; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:35:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46921EC23@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: A Use for Junk DNA, + what's happened to Vortex? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:35:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65694 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting site. By the way, what's happened to vortex these days? It seems almost monothematic. It used to be fun years ago. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Sent: 12 January 2006 03:53 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: A Use for Junk DNA Teemosis, somewhat off topic, but interesting: http://thesecondevolution.com/ ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 06:01:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DE0Eom024475; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:00:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DDhBe3015782; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:43:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:43:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060113134258678.A59E374000BD@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060113134300.00a28f48@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:43:00 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: A Use for Junk DNA, + what's happened to Vortex? Resent-Message-ID: <091AYD.A.h2D.v56xDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65695 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:35 am 13/01/2006 -0000, you wrote: > By the way, what's happened to vortex these days? It > seems almost monothematic. It used to be fun years ago. "How right Mark Lemon (or Tom Taylor or F C Burnand) was to reply 'It never was' to the remark 'Punch is not what it was'." I think the same goes for Vortex, Remi. Like the observation, "Have you noticed how young policemen look nowadays?" it's a sign one's getting old. 8-( Frank. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 06:18:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DEHUQY000979; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:17:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DEHRbB000934; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:17:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:17:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <830FE1A2A6A3244684C7CF7DC89EC46921EC87@EXCHANGE2.university.brighton.ac.uk> From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: A Use for Junk DNA, + what's happened to Vortex? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:52:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65696 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ha Grimer! Not old, just plateau I hope, downhill from there :( Oh, here's a joke: Posted At: 01 December 2005 08:47 Conversation: Football Posted To: Humour Subject: Football The new Liverpool manager sent scouts out around the world looking for a new striker to replace Michael Owen who had gone to Newcastle. One of the scouts informs him of a young Iraqi striker who he thinks will turn out to be a true superstar. The L'pool manager flies to Baghdad to watch him and is suitably impressed and arranges for him to come over to Anfield. Two weeks later Liverpool are 4-0 down to Man Utd with only 20 minutes left. The manager gives the young Iraqi striker the nod and on the field he goes. The lad is a sensation, scores 5 in 20 minutes and wins the game for Liverpool. The fans are delighted, the players and coaches are delighted and the media love the new star. When the lad comes off the pitch, he phones his mum to tell her about his first day in English football. "Hello mum, guess what?" he says. "I played for 20 minutes today, we were 4-0 down but I scored 5 and we won. Everybody loves me, the fans, the media, they all love me". "Wonderful," says his mum. "Let me tell you about my day. Your father got shot in the street, your sister and I were ambushed and beaten and your brother has joined a gang of looters while you were having a great time!" With this news, the young lad is very upset. "What can I say mum, except I'm so sorry". "Sorry!" exclaims his mum. "It's your fault we all moved to Liverpool in the first place! Remi. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Grimer Sent: 13 January 2006 13:43 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: A Use for Junk DNA, + what's happened to Vortex? At 10:35 am 13/01/2006 -0000, you wrote: > By the way, what's happened to vortex these days? It > seems almost monothematic. It used to be fun years ago. "How right Mark Lemon (or Tom Taylor or F C Burnand) was to reply 'It never was' to the remark 'Punch is not what it was'." I think the same goes for Vortex, Remi. Like the observation, "Have you noticed how young policemen look nowadays?" it's a sign one's getting old. 8-( Frank. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 06:47:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DElabP016503; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:47:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DElT3w016455; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:47:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:47:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601131447.k0DElO2I069932@mail0.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:47:24 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: orionworks@charter.net Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Another CF Misrep - "Scientific process roots out fraud" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_eb105a61d0810ce104b22a43adfbcfda" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65697 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_eb105a61d0810ce104b22a43adfbcfda Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed, I hate to bring another clone fraud article to your attention but, once again, CF is associated with the recent Korean scandal. Scientific process roots out fraud Friday, January 13, 2006 ?BY BETTYANN HOLTZMANN KEVLES THE WASHINGTON POST http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=263382&Category=14 or http://tinyurl.com/734lg See paragraph: ************************************************* "There have been some great scientific misdeeds in the past. Who can forget Piltdown Man, the manufactured fossil skull, or the claims of the discovery of cold fusion in 1989 at the University of Utah? But those examples are famous because they are so rare. As the South Korean stem cell case shows, the scientific process means that frauds are typically revealed before they harm anything but the perpetrators' reputations. The far greater risk is that they erode our faith in science." ************************************************* I suspect you may have already addressed this Washington Post article. Never the less at this web site there IS a link where individuals can "comment on this story." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@orionworks.com www.OrionWorks.com --=_eb105a61d0810ce104b22a43adfbcfda Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed,

I hate to bring another clone fraud article to your attention but, once aga= in, CF is associated with the recent Korean scandal.

Scientific process roots out fraud
Friday, January 13, 2006 ?BY BETTYANN HOLTZMANN KEVLES THE WASHINGTON POST<= br />

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=3D263382&Category=3D14
or
http://tinyurl.com/734lg


See paragraph:

*************************************************
"There have been some great scientific misdeeds in the past. Who can forget= Piltdown Man, the manufactured fossil skull, or the claims of the discover= y of cold fusion in 1989 at the University of Utah? But those examples are = famous because they are so rare. As the South Korean stem cell case shows, = the scientific process means that frauds are typically revealed before they= harm anything but the perpetrators' reputations. The far greater risk is t= hat they erode our faith in science."

*************************************************

I suspect you may have already addressed this Washington Post article. Neve= r the less at this web site there IS a link where individuals can "comment = on this story."

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
www.OrionWorks.com --=_eb105a61d0810ce104b22a43adfbcfda-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 07:38:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DFcZ7E007180; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:38:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DFcYFj007164; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:38:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ok3gO1AiAP2tC7QzWNGDxaqJ0ya7XnmyLwdCwajMzjD/+rYfp3imENxtMSEVKwTd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061513153825505@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:38:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94058c16ca7d70cac8983147ae6914e4d52350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.118 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65698 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If H2 + e ----> H + H- might the 2 electron H- form a hydrino-like small H particle? How would Schroedinger's Equation handle that at atmospheric or higher pressures? H2 or D2 pressurized electrolysis cells, or light bulbs? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If  H2 + e  ----> H + H- might the 2 electron H-  form a hydrino-like
small  H particle?
How would Schroedinger's Equation handle that at atmospheric
or higher pressures?
 
H2 or D2 pressurized electrolysis cells, or light bulbs?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 07:57:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DFunFh017600; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:56:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DFucId017444; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:56:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:56:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c61858$7b82dbc0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7E41E48D77BFD-1364-7929@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E43E26F126D2-1F28-3095@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> <31738D8C-CF7C-4946-A308-A42FC6FB219F@mtaonline.net> <8C7E4620C71AF16-C0C-17BF@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E4D342D9DF28-1894-717@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <5E936C6F-3048-44E5-974A-8765CEE1A5E1@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5A0953EAFEE-FF8-1060C@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> <40771B3B-9866-4B64-8850-B3766537D048@mtaonline.net> <8C7E5E1B41F57EE-1E18-6295@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions (now about cosmology) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:46:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65699 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No topic generates greater 'prurient' interest among scientists (i.e lascivious to nerds) than "dark energy," unless it is ZPE and unless the two are not related (but which is the superset?) In 1999 the mysterious force (dark energy) was theorized to be causing the universe to expand at an ever-accelerating rate. Immediately many of us (well at least one = moi) on vortex identified this force as a version of ZPE, probably the crossover effect of Dirac's sea in 3-space. Not surprising to see anyone 'jump the gun' here - as few of us have tenure to defend. Now, new research suggests that this *rate* may instead be variable over time. Alas, that is problematic for everyone. So let me be the first to say that if it is true - maybe we are just now entering the age of ZPE - not because we just discovered it - but because it just discovered us ! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/11/AR2006011102065.html?referrer=emailarticle----- Original Message -----From: "Horace Heffner"> But this is exactly what gravimagnetic theory suggests, or atleast I suggested. The furthest stars receed faster and thus thered shift of gravitational photons will get stronger, reducingthe hold of the universe on them (gravitational photons attractrather than repel.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 09:48:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DHm2EM013785; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:48:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DHlrXc013672; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:47:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:47:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rKh7G32Mw6MNiUR+mqF+NIMKmUzNHQnSgXWDo2bRbLqHZZ893bYP+VOD++aaw9gK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006151317473557@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:47:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94029c37db1a4c10d351300a687a99d9027350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.221 Resent-Message-ID: <6aQVoB.A.XVD.Hf-xDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65700 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to this: http://www.shef.ac.uk/physics/teaching/phy205/Lecture_2_and_3.htm The H- or Proton electron-electron (Pee) species could form a hydrino. No? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 1/13/2006 8:38:38 AM Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? If H2 + e ----> H + H- might the 2 electron H- form a hydrino-like small H particle? How would Schroedinger's Equation handle that at atmospheric or higher pressures? H2 or D2 pressurized electrolysis cells, or light bulbs? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
According to this:
 
 
The H- or Proton electron-electron (Pee) species could form a hydrino.  No?
 
Fred
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/13/2006 8:38:38 AM
Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU?

If  H2 + e  ----> H + H- might the 2 electron H-  form a hydrino-like
small  H particle?
How would Schroedinger's Equation handle that at atmospheric
or higher pressures?
 
H2 or D2 pressurized electrolysis cells, or light bulbs?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:14:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIDfXt027665; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:13:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIDbtZ027601; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:13:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:13:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:13:19 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65701 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Good to see John give it a go: United States Patent Application 20050276366 Kind Code A1 Dash, John December 15, 2005 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Low temperature nuclear fusion Abstract A method of producing energy is described. The method comprises providing a container for receiving an electrolyte composition, a cathode and an anode. An electrolyte composition is formed comprising D.sub.2O and an ionizable acid. A sufficient amount of the electrolyte composition is placed in the container to at least partially cover a cathode made from a metal selected from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals and to at least partially cover an inert anode situated inside the container. The cathode and anode are connected to a source of electricity, and a voltage is applied across the cathode and anode. The present invention can be used to reproducibly produce heat energy. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:15:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIETQo028269; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:14:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIEEgM028070; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:14:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:14:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060113181350175.2ABBEB400086@mwinf3013.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060113181351.00a1df5c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:13:51 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Loading Palladium, Basic Questions (now about cosmology) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:46 am 13/01/2006 -0800, Jones wrote: > No topic generates greater 'prurient' interest among scientists > (i.e lascivious to nerds) than "dark energy," unless it is ZPE and > unless the two are not related (but which is the superset?) > > In 1999 the mysterious force (dark energy) was theorized to be > causing the universe to expand at an ever-accelerating rate. > Immediately many of us (well at least one = moi) on vortex > identified this force as a version of ZPE, probably the crossover > effect of Dirac's sea in 3-space. Not surprising to see anyone > 'jump the gun' here - as few of us have tenure to defend. I imagined the whole point of tenure was that you didn't need to defend it - but then I was never an academic so what do I know. Fortunately, in my day British Civil Servants were so bullet proof that short of assaulting the Director they were virtually impossible to "release" to use hohlraum's terminology. ;-) We even had one chap in a relatively junior position who failed to come into work for weeks at a time (3 months in one case) and it took 7 years before he was moved on. # Those were the days, my friend. We thought....# but it's all ended now. A few years after I retired they privatised the place. My colleague, Nigel Clayton, told me that the final months were spent rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:28:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIS6pA002955; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:28:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIS2NP002913; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:28:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c401c6186f$0e56e4d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-22006151317473557@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:27:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber >According to this: http://www.shef.ac.uk/physics/teaching/phy205/Lecture_2_and_3.htm >The H- or Proton electron-electron (Pee) species could form a >hydrino. No? Maybe one of these is really a deuterino UV source? http://www.oceanoptics.com/Products/dt1000.asp Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:40:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIdtnL009281; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:39:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIdi6O009207; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:39:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:39:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:39:23 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E687CF2FB98B-1840-1399C@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0DIdWpx009076 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I say we start a fund to sue the bloody ba$tards at the USPTO if they don't grant it. -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d Good to see John give it a go:    United States Patent Application 20050276366  ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:43:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIgiL3011028; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIgYIf010910; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, How do you differentiate this CF cell from P&F - ENECO?? BTW ENECO now bills itself as a 'thermal diode' company: http://www.eneco-usa.com/technologyframe.html > Good to see John give it a go: > > United States Patent Application 20050276366 > Kind Code A1 > Dash, John December 15, 2005 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Low temperature nuclear fusion > > > Abstract > A method of producing energy is described. The method comprises > providing a container for receiving an electrolyte composition, > a cathode and an anode. An electrolyte composition is formed > comprising D.sub.2O and an ionizable acid. A sufficient amount > of the electrolyte composition is placed in the container to at > least partially cover a cathode made from a metal selected from > the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals and to at > least partially cover an inert anode situated inside the > container. The cathode and anode are connected to a source of > electricity, and a voltage is applied across the cathode and > anode. The present invention can be used to reproducibly produce > heat energy. > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 10:45:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DIivgq013566; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:44:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DIimAv013375; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:44:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <410-220061513153825505@earthlink.net> References: <410-220061513153825505@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5DB93024-B590-47AA-8425-269FC2CCD528@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 13, 2006, at 6:38 AM, Frederick Sparber wrote: > If H2 + e ----> H + H- might the 2 electron H- form a hydrino-like > small H particle? > How would Schroedinger's Equation handle that at atmospheric > or higher pressures? > > H2 or D2 pressurized electrolysis cells, or light bulbs? > > Fred Fred, I think there is a lot more energy to be gained from expansion of a proton to a hydrogen atom, but there is also a lot of energy (and volume ) to be gained just from H2 --> 2 H. There is still a little bit more to be gained from H + e- ---> H-. But, the big stuff is gained from the high energies involved in forming a hydrogen atom from a proton in a very confined space - assuming no hydrino is formed along the way. I have been talking about this here for some time, except it can be protons as well as electrons that do the water ionizing to create the bare protons. Also, H2O+ ---> H2O + H should provide some energy in a confined space. Any expansion of the hydrogen atom should indeed provide energy from the ZPE sea. The higher the pressure of operation, the more the free energy. This is the opposite of Mill's approach, however, in that he takes the energy when his hydrino is formed and then essentially discards it. For more complete background see: Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 11:07:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DJ6gFc027454; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:06:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DJ6aWI027421; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:06:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:06:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20060113110529.033b8dc8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:07:56 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent In-Reply-To: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9_kb4D.A.UsG.6o_xDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Valone told me the other day that he thought Harvey Behrends (sp?) was, or had retired. Maybe the ice is perceived to be thawing. s At 01:13 PM 1/13/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Good to see John give it a go: > >United States Patent Application 20050276366 >Kind Code A1 >Dash, John December 15, 2005 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------- >Low temperature nuclear fusion > > >Abstract >A method of producing energy is described. The method comprises providing >a container for receiving an electrolyte composition, a cathode and an >anode. An electrolyte composition is formed comprising D.sub.2O and an >ionizable acid. A sufficient amount of the electrolyte composition is >placed in the container to at least partially cover a cathode made from a >metal selected from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals and >to at least partially cover an inert anode situated inside the container. >The cathode and anode are connected to a source of electricity, and a >voltage is applied across the cathode and anode. The present invention can >be used to reproducibly produce heat energy. > >___________________________________________________ >Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 11:29:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DJTKQv010707; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:29:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DJTHMQ010666; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:29:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:29:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060113192859736.B3C7A1C00084@mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060113192901.00b7b164@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:29:01 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0DJTArp010546 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:42 am 13/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > I think there is a lot more energy to be gained from expansion of a > proton to a hydrogen atom, ... Interesting. 8-) Reminds me of the following question I dangled before the Society for Promoting Chr...errr..Classic Quantum Mechanics. I didn't get a bite - but then I didn't really expect to. ======================================================= SCQM - A General Systems View ------------------------------------------------------- I don't know much about hydrinos - but what I do find very convincing is the idea of fractional entities. I find it convincing because it fits in with a general systems view of things. Any measurement of any kind must implicitly relate to a standard. In the case of a measurement which is integral then that standard is the integer 1. Integers like 4, 7, 11 what have you, are implicitly 4/1, 7/1 and 11/1. In other words there must be both an numerator and a denominator. The numerator appears above the surface - the denominator is hidden below the surface and most people are blissfully unaware of its existence. A simple illustrative narrative will show what I'm driving at. A miser has £100 in bank notes. Every night he counts them to make sure none have been stolen. Then he goes to sleep secure in the knowledge that he has counted up to 100 and all his notes are still there. The numerator is constant and he imagines this is all that matters. What he fails to realise is that every day the Government is printing more notes (as they usually do) and they are thereby stealing his money by increasing the denominator. He doesn't realise that the value of his notes is governed not only by the number he holds, which he can check, but also by the total number that there are in circulation, which he cannot check. Another example of denominator manipulation by Government is the use of British Standard Time and no doubt there are many others. The effect of denominator change appears to have been appreciated far more in politics than in science where there has been an uncritical faith in denominator constancy. The failure to appreciate the importance of the denominator part of a physical measurement is a crucial error in traditional physical theories. A similar error occurs in my own research field, viz. strength of materials, where stresses are viewed in terms of external conditions only and there is a failure to appreciate that stresses are the manifestation of differences between external and internal conditions and can be caused by either an alteration of external conditions only or by an alteration of internal conditions only or, and this will be the general case, by an alteration in both external and internal conditions. Now though I am quasi modo with regard to the Doctor's theories, it seems to me that whereas changes in the numerator term relate to the electron, changes in the denominator term, i.e. fractional states, must relate to the nucleus. Perhaps, those members familiar with intricacies of SCQM can advise me whether they see this view as at variance with the Doctor's. MCBJ Frank Grimer ======================================================= From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 12:32:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DKW7aS010389; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DKW4Br010366; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <39C6DA67-51DB-4CF2-B9C7-2A67DB94109D@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:29:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 13, 2006, at 9:13 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Good to see John give it a go: > > United States Patent Application 20050276366 > Kind Code A1 > Dash, John December 15, 2005 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ------- > Low temperature nuclear fusion > > > Abstract > A method of producing energy is described. The method comprises > providing a container for receiving an electrolyte composition, a > cathode and an anode. An electrolyte composition is formed > comprising D.sub.2O and an ionizable acid. A sufficient amount of > the electrolyte composition is placed in the container to at least > partially cover a cathode made from a metal selected from the group > consisting of nonhydride Nonhydride? Is that a typo? > forming metals and to at least partially cover an inert anode > situated inside the container. The cathode and anode are connected > to a source of electricity, and a voltage is applied across the > cathode and anode. The present invention can be used to > reproducibly produce heat energy. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 12:33:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DKWs0j010741; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DKWn3q010684; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jvZc0LK4eHaGI3mX4Gr9oAa4veURt0cWvAYkFZEFeltPCtw5gIMPUFFXsRIql3w8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061513203231216@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:32:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94080ee716a27456dedbfd2a2a0a941b1a2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones. It seems to me that H2 or D2 under pressure in an electrolysis cell will tend to establish a gas layer at the electrolyte-electrode interfaces. This should help establish a high electric field across this layer, as well as expose the H2/D2 molecules to electrons from the cathode, or the anions at the anode and effect the H2 + e ---> H + H- reaction. H - H recombination should result in 5.17 eV (240 nm) UV as opposed to the 200 nm (6.21 eV) claimed for the Deuterium Tungsten Bulb. The Earthtech experiments on Mills and Mizuno's work were plagued with difficulties and possibly unintentional Red Herrings. Higher pressure than the 80 Torr used in the MAHG might make those results more interesting, too. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex-l > Date: 1/13/2006 11:28:05 AM > Subject: Re: Electron Induced H2/D2 Splitting & CF/OU? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > >According to this: > > http://www.shef.ac.uk/physics/teaching/phy205/Lecture_2_and_3.htm > > >The H- or Proton electron-electron (Pee) species could form a > >hydrino. No? > > > > Maybe one of these is really a deuterino UV source? > > http://www.oceanoptics.com/Products/dt1000.asp > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 12:43:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DKh1vN017512; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:43:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DKgwFx017488; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:42:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:42:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011801c61881$e8e8da60$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <39C6DA67-51DB-4CF2-B9C7-2A67DB94109D@mtaonline.net> Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:42:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Nonhydride? Is that a typo? I think what he means is that the absorption of hydrogen into the matrix does not result in a real chemical bond. Maybe he should have said 'proton conductor' ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 13:03:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DL2tvl026746; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:02:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DL2su3026712; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:02:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:02:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:58:05 -0600 To: Vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Johnson Motor Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <4UJf5B.A.OhG.8VByDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; The Baron posted a URL for a site that talked about the Cohler device. It had a link to a page that talked about the Johnson Motor. I've heard about it, but my understanding was that it just ran itself. The story on the page talks about a 500 HP machine. Having wired up a 200 HP motor, I can imagine what a 500 would be. At the bottom of the page is a not about a then Minnesota Senator who wrote to our then U S Senator urging him to investigate why the Illinois Governor had attacked Johnson. I pointed out to the webpage author that if the ruling elite is dedicated to using the power of the government in order to surpress this technology, there is nothing that we can do about it. However it would seem to me, that there should be a simple experiment that would demonstrate the effect. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 13:46:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DLkV3Q015975; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:46:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DLkTev015963; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:46:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:46:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:46:16 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0DLkPK1015901 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Terry,    How do you differentiate this CF cell from P&F - ENECO??  <><><><>><><> Here's some more of the text. You really need to look at yourself. Did F&P ever use titanium?=> CROSS REFERENCE TO RELATED APPLICATION [0001] This is a continuation-in-part of U.S. patent application Ser. No. 08/439,712, filed on May 12, 1995, entitled LOW TEMPERATURE NUCLEAR FUSION (parent application). The parent application is incorporated herein by reference. FIELD OF THE INVENTION [0002] This invention concerns the production of energy through electrochemical charging of a cathode made from a metal selected from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals, such as palladium, platinum and titanium, with deuterium or heavy hydrogen being formed by an electrolysis process. BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION [0003] It has been reported by Fleischmann, Pons and Hawkins that prolonged electrochemical charging of a palladium cathode with deuterium formed by electrolysis of a D.sub.2O solution containing LiOD leads to the evolution of neutrons and tritium together with heat on a scale not reconciled with any known chemical reaction. Difficulties have been experienced in confirming the results of these investigators. SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION [0004] The present invention can be used to reproducibly produce heat energy. The invention is based on the observation that significant amounts of energy in the form of heat and the production of a radioactive material, i.e., tritium, is obtained in a reliable manner through electrolysis using an electrolyte comprising D.sub.2O and an ionizable acid, such as sulfuric acid. With a current passed through the electrolyte employing an inert anode, such as a platinum anode, and a cathode made from a metal selected from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals, such as palladium, platinum and titanium, deuterium and hydrogen atoms are formed at the cathode. It is postulated that these react in an unknown nuclear reaction in the cathode to yield tritium and energy. [0005] The invention further contemplates performing the process of the invention in an environment wherein gases produced by the electrolysis recombine under the action of a catalyst in a region disposed above the region where the electrolyte is contained. With hydrogen and deuterium formed at the cathode and oxygen formed at the anode, these recombine in the presence of a catalyst, such as platinum-black, to form water and heavy water. The recombining of these gases in this fashion constitutes an important safety feature. The gases may also be collected for industrial uses, in which case, the catalyst is not needed. [0006] These and other objects and advantages are attained by the invention, which is described hereinbelow in conjunction with the accompanying FIGS. 1-4. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 14:16:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DMG0DL031845; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:16:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DMFuUj031808; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:15:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:15:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:13:40 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 13, 2006, at 12:46 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:42:16 -0800 > Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > Terry, > > How do you differentiate this CF cell from P&F - ENECO?? > > <><><><>><><> > > Here's some more of the text. You really need to look at > yourself. Did F&P ever use titanium?=> > > CROSS REFERENCE TO RELATED APPLICATION > > [0001] This is a continuation-in-part of U.S. patent application > Ser. No. 08/439,712, filed on May 12, 1995, entitled LOW > TEMPERATURE NUCLEAR FUSION (parent application). The parent > application is incorporated herein by reference. > > FIELD OF THE INVENTION > > [0002] This invention concerns the production of energy through > electrochemical charging of a cathode made from a metal selected > from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals, such as > palladium, platinum and titanium, ...uh... palladium, platinum and titanium are hydride forming metals. > with deuterium or heavy hydrogen being formed by an electrolysis > process. > > BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION > > [0003] It has been reported by Fleischmann, Pons and Hawkins that > prolonged electrochemical charging of a palladium cathode with > deuterium formed by electrolysis of a D.sub.2O solution containing > LiOD leads to the evolution of neutrons and tritium together with > heat on a scale not reconciled with any known chemical reaction. > Difficulties have been experienced in confirming the results of > these investigators. > > SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION > > [0004] The present invention can be used to reproducibly produce > heat energy. The invention is based on the observation that > significant amounts of energy in the form of heat and the > production of a radioactive material, i.e., tritium, is obtained in > a reliable manner through electrolysis using an electrolyte > comprising D.sub.2O and an ionizable acid, such as sulfuric acid. > With a current passed through the electrolyte employing an inert > anode, such as a platinum anode, and a cathode made from a metal > selected from the group consisting of nonhydride forming metals, > such as palladium, platinum and titanium, ...again... palladium, platinum and titanium are hydride forming metals. > deuterium and hydrogen atoms are formed at the cathode. It is > postulated that these react in an unknown nuclear reaction in the > cathode to yield tritium and energy. > > [0005] The invention further contemplates performing the process of > the invention in an environment wherein gases produced by the > electrolysis recombine under the action of a catalyst in a region > disposed above the region where the electrolyte is contained. With > hydrogen and deuterium formed at the cathode and oxygen formed at > the anode, these recombine in the presence of a catalyst, such as > platinum-black, to form water and heavy water. The recombining of > these gases in this fashion constitutes an important safety > feature. The gases may also be collected for industrial uses, in > which case, the catalyst is not needed. > > [0006] These and other objects and advantages are attained by the > invention, which is described hereinbelow in conjunction with the > accompanying FIGS. 1-4. > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 15:08:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0DN7puo025173; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:07:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0DN7m1q025154; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:07:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:07:36 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E6AD4711A4E5-F34-117A1@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0DN7khg025101 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner ...uh... palladium, platinum and titanium are hydride forming metals.  <><><><><><><> Yeah, but as Jones points out, they are not covalent hydrides. Actually, there are there are also ionic hydrides. I think what Dash does here is distinguish between and interstitial hydride and the bound hydrides. Here's a reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_hydride ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 16:05:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E04cKH016393; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E04ZqP016369; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:04:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E6AD4711A4E5-F34-117A1@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> <8C7E6AD4711A4E5-F34-117A1@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5E3B07DE-9741-4CE5-84DF-D0B0B350FB31@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:02:28 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 13, 2006, at 2:07 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner > > ...uh... palladium, platinum and titanium are hydride forming metals. > > <><><><><><><> > > Yeah, but as Jones points out, they are not covalent hydrides. > Actually, there are there are also ionic hydrides. I think what > Dash does here is distinguish between and interstitial hydride and > the bound hydrides. Here's a reference: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_hydride All over the place is literature that refers to hydrogen adsorbed in Pd etc. as a *hydride*. The above reference even says: "Hydrides can be roughly classified into three main types by the nature of bonding and structure: Ionic hydrides Covalent hydrides Transitional metal hydrides, interstitial hydrides." Apples can be divided into 3 main types: Macintoshes Apple II's Others So, does this mean my Mac is not an Apple, but rather a golden delicious? The verbiage in patent applications must be very rigorous, especially in the claims, but the claims generally use terminology from the description, which then so defines that terminology. Of side interest I see it says: "The dihydrogen molecule (H2) shares electron with palladium in some yet unknown manner and hides itself within the spaces of the palladium metal crystal structure." This person hasn't seen the literature on partial orbitals yet. 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 16:08:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E08cKL017901; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:08:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E08ZaK017864; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:08:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:08:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=okvYC3PUqx4oNxa+eK89S2XlAi+IBVYhRLIOVYFJqo4JIBAgjI8mehNHb7zRDecs; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006151316814190@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 13, 2006 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:08:14 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8874c7bdc8d3fc4775ac5620ab1c97fb519c9e15d1c7c699c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.91.148 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 1/13/2006 10:07:50 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 13, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 13 Jan 06 Washington, DC 1. OIL: ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, ALASKAN WILDLIFE PAYS THE PRICE. Congress said no to ANWAR, not much is flowing out of Iraq, and we're not doing business with Iran. The solution is to open up 389,000 acres in Alaska that had been off-limits to energy development. This time it's migratory birds that will suffer. But energy problems are great for zero-point energy scams. 2. BLACKLIGHT POWER: SOME IDEAS ARE SIMPLY TOO DUMB TO DIE! Since 1991, http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN91/wn042691.html , WN has followed the strange case of the "hydrino," tiny hydrogen atoms in a "state below the ground state," according to Randell Mills, M.D., author of The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics. We haven't heard much about Mills and his company, BlackLight Power, since they lost a patent appeal three years ago http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn090602.html . But with the start of the new year, Dow Jones Newswires ran a story about deep-pocket financial gurus that are backing BlackLight. A> retired head of energy banking at Morgan Stanley commented that physicists are "hostile" to Mills ideas. Bob Park, was the only physicist quoted. Sure enough, he was hostile. "Park represents an entrenched physics establishment that fears losing billions in funding and having its work discredited," Mills explained. 3. CREATIONISM: KITZMILLER V. DOVER SCHOOL BOARD DIDN'T END IT. Who thought it would? In Dover, the issue was that intelligent design was misrepresented as science. So why not misrepresent it as something else? In Lebec, CA, a course on the Origins of Life is listed as Philosophy, but it's still intelligent design. The Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murrieta, CA is suing the University of California for not giving credit for courses with a "Christian viewpoint." At Calvary Chapel, that's everything but mathematics. In Ohio, they don't bother to disguise it. The Board of Education voted to keep a controversial biology lesson, Critical Analysis of Evolution, that tells students to examine "alternate theories of evolution." Lamarckian perhaps? In a fundraising letter, Discovery Institute founder Phillip Johnson dropped all pretense, "our ultimate goal is to affirm God and defeat Darwinism...to shape public policy in accordance with conservative Christian philosophy and get it into our schools." 4. SCIENCE ADVISORY PANELS: POLITICAL LITMUS TESTS ARE OUTLAWED. The NIH funding bill, signed into law on 30 Dec 05, contains a measure inserted by Richard Durbin (D-IL) to prevent political interference in scientific decisions. There are some 1,000 federal advisory panels that examine science issues, such as safe drinking water standards. In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences had found that nominees to these panels were often questioned about their political affiliations and voting history. The new law makes it illegal to ask such questions of nominees, however, it provides no penalties if the ban is violated. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 16:23:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E0Nfvo023371; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:23:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E0NeoJ023349; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:23:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:23:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <038b01c618a0$8146c290$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Blacklight Power gets $50M Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:21:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0387_01C61876.9807E6A0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0387_01C61876.9807E6A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0388_01C61876.980A3090" ------=_NextPart_001_0388_01C61876.980A3090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blacklight Power gets $50M; but is it profound, or utter nonsense? Updated =20 =20 Notable story today by VentureWire (sub required) about the company = founded by medical doctor Randell Mills, called Blacklight Power, which = claims to have found an alternative source of energy, and has gotten = $50M from respected investors.=20 This is significant, because alternative energy is a hot sector right = now. Some are calling Mills' work profound. Others are calling it "utter = nonsense". Basically, Mills claims to have discovered a process which = generates "hydrinos" -- a previously unknown form of hydrogen in which = electrons move below the ground state to release energy. Numerous = mainstream physicists, however, are calling such a result impossible, = according to the piece. As in any boom, there are a lot of fanciful ideas emerging, and it is = difficult to say which ones should be taken seriously. If you're an = entrepreneur or investor looking at the clean-tech sector, take a look = at this smorgasbord of far-out energy ideas, by Utah... writer Sterling Allan, who is also founder of a group that is trying to = foster support for alternative energy ideas: Why not harness the power of atmospheric pressure differences of = weather patterns across hundreds of miles, through abandoned pipelines? = (Ref.) Why not float wind turbines out at sea like oil rigs? (Ref., = ref.) Why not use the downed trees from hurricanes for biomass energy? = (Ref.) Why not harness the breaking power of vehicles through gadgets in = the road at off ramps? http://www.siliconbeat.com/entries/2006/01/04/blacklight_power_gets_50m_b= ut_is_it_profound_or_utter_nonsense.html ------=_NextPart_001_0388_01C61876.980A3090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Blacklight Power gets $50M; = but is it=20 profound, or utter nonsense?

Updated

Notable story today by <= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#225588>VentureWire = (sub required)=20 about the company founded by medical doctor Randell Mills, called = Blacklight=20 Power, which claims to have found an = alternative=20 source of energy, and has gotten $50M from respected investors.

This is significant, because alternative energy is = a hot=20 sector right now.

Some are calling Mills' work profound. Others are = calling it=20 "utter nonsense". Basically, Mills claims to have discovered a process = which=20 generates "hydrinos" -- a previously unknown form of hydrogen in which = electrons=20 move below the ground state to release energy. Numerous mainstream = physicists,=20 however, are calling such a result impossible, according to the=20 piece.

As in any boom, there are a lot of fanciful ideas = emerging,=20 and it is difficult to say which ones should be taken seriously. If = you're an=20 entrepreneur or investor looking at the clean-tech sector, take a look = at=20 = this smorgasbord of far-out energy=20 ideas, by Utah...

writer Sterling Allan, who is also founder of a = group that=20 is trying to foster support for alternative energy ideas:

Why not harness the power of atmospheric = pressure=20 differences of weather patterns across hundreds of miles, through = abandoned=20 pipelines? (Ref.) Why not float wind turbines out at sea like oil = rigs? (Ref.,=20 ref.) Why not use the downed trees from hurricanes for biomass energy? = (Ref.)=20 Why not harness the breaking power of vehicles through gadgets in the = road at=20 off ramps?

http://www.siliconbeat.com/entries/2006/01/04/blacklight_pow= er_gets_50m_but_is_it_profound_or_utter_nonsense.html

 


 

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sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <039201c618a0$9775edc0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: BlackLight Power's Quantum leap in physics? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:22:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_038F_01C61876.AE55E470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_038F_01C61876.AE55E470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quantum leap in physics? Monday, January 02, 2006=20 By ELIZABETH LANDAU=20 EAST WINDSOR - Traversing the long, sterile white corridors of BlackLight P= ower's offices here, technicians in lab coats and safety goggles are hard a= t work on what they believe is a scientific revolution.=20 They meticulously examine tubes of gray powder, generate purple plasma in a= tube and measure the temperature changes in large water baths. In warehous= e-like rooms, each filled with various gadgets and experiments, a controver= sial new form of energy sizzles.=20 According to BlackLight's founder, a cheap, non-polluting energy is generat= ed 1,000 times more efficiently than conventional power sources.=20 However, there is considerable skepticism in the scientific community, and = to many, BlackLight's claims defy the laws of physics.=20 Within months, company officials say, they will offer critical information = and possibly even a prototype of an energy generating device that functions= according to the principles that BlackLight's founder, Randell Mills, says= he has discovered.=20 With enough financial and marketing support, the energy could be available = for use worldwide in just a few years, BlackLight researchers say.=20 Park read Mills' 900-page tome explaining his "hydrino" generation theory a= nd was not impressed.=20 "A lot of it has just been lifted from standard textbooks, but twisted to m= ake his point," said Park, who wrote about BlackLight in his 2000 book, "Vo= odoo Science." "It is impossible for their (BlackLight's) quantum mechanics= to be right."=20 According to standard quantum mechanics, in a hydrogen atom there is one pr= oton (positive charge) and one orbiting electron (negative charge) that are= separated by a fixed distance between the electron and the atom's nucleus.= =20 But BlackLight's Mills contends that by exciting hydrogen gas with a cataly= st gas, the electron actually moves closer to the proton, creating a previo= usly unrecognized state of hydrogen dubbed a "hydrino." This hydrino format= ion releases up to 1,000 times as much energy as ordinary hydrogen combusti= on, Mills said.=20 Mills recognizes that skepticism abounds, but stands firmly behind his theo= ry.=20 "People get very defensive because they've set up a belief system," Mills s= aid. "They say they're standing on shoulders of the great minds. Well, they= 're going to be standing in the unemployment lines wishing they'd studied e= ngineering."=20 Unlike some scientists viewed as cranks, Mills is not some spiky-haired guy= in a T-shirt operating out of his garage. The confident, 6-foot 5-inch sci= entist studied electrical engineering at MIT and earned a medical degree fr= om Harvard.=20 The company has already raised $40 million, he said, and operates on about = 53,000 square feet in the former Lockheed-Martin assembly plant.=20 Mills got the idea for the BlackLight process when he was working on a proj= ect at MIT on free-electron lasers, in which individual electrons emit lase= r light. He decided to apply Maxwell's Equations (on electric and magnetic = fields) to the level of the atom and found that he could get all of the fun= damental properties of the atom to work out. The novel application predicts= a new form of energy, he said.=20 The technology is also environment-friendly, Mills says, since it does not = release air pollutants or radioactive waste. Instead, BlackLight scientists= say, the chemical process releases new hydrino-based "hydride compounds" t= hat could have commercial applications.=20 "This technology could eliminate gasoline altogether," said Mills of his ra= dical theory. "I think it will have extraordinary impact."=20 But if BlackLight is for real, a century of scientific achievement - not to= mention every accredited chemistry textbook worldwide - is fiction. BlackL= ight's energy production relies on Mills' unconventional theory of atoms, o= ne that fundamentally contradicts standard quantum mechanics.=20 "Quantum mechanics has duped the world that there is . . . all this strange= stuff that has never been verified," Mills said. "It turns out you can sol= ve enormously complex problems by treating electrons differently."=20 One of BlackLight's most outspoken critics has been Robert Park, director o= f public information for the American Physical Society.=20 "It makes nuclear energy obsolete, oil-power cars obsolete, solar and wind = energy irrelevant," said Kurt Davies, research director at Greenpeace. "We = need a miracle to solve global warming. I cross my fingers and hope that Bl= ackLight is part of that solution."=20 Though Greenpeace does not receive money from BlackLight, the two organizat= ions share a "philosophical partnership," Davies said.=20 In May, Greenpeace invited researchers at the University of North Carolina = at Asheville to check out BlackLight and make independent assessments of th= e technology. After a week of calculation and experimentation, UNC environm= ental studies Professor Rick Maas and physics Professor Randy Booker report= edly are convinced of BlackLight's potential.=20 The researchers examined and played with water lasers, kilns, calorimeters = and other gadgets and agreed that in each set-up, it seemed that hydrogen c= ollapsed into hydrinos, creating energy.=20 "The experiments really speak for themselves; it's overwhelming that they g= ive off excess energy," Booker said. "I saw it with my own eyes and my own = calculations."=20 Though Booker said he continues to keep an open mind and maintains skeptici= sm, he hasn't found "any major boo-boos," and said BlackLight could be a bi= g breakthrough as a non-polluting, renewable energy source.=20 Mills inspired Jonathan Phillips, national lab professor at the University = of New Mexico, to undertake his own experiments using the hydrino-generatin= g principles, and Phillips said he found the same results. "It's a done dea= l. It's a superior theory by far," he said.=20 But the very idea that electrons could move closer than normal to the nucle= us - that is, in a lower energy state than the minimum set in quantum mecha= nics - screams of fraud to other scientists.=20 "It's nonsense, of course; there's no such thing as a lower energy level," = said Michael Romalis, professor of physics at Princeton University. "It's b= asically junk science."=20 Despite the technological and scientific backlash, BlackLight officials say= they get plenty of respect from the corporate world. The company wants to = license its technology on a non-exclusive basis, and make it available for = use or marketing anywhere in the world.=20 Companies that reportedly have invested in BlackLight include Atlantic City= Electric and Delmarva Power - formerly known as Connectiv - and PacifiCorp= , a West Coast electricity company. But representatives of these companies = with knowledge of the investments were unavailable to comment on the status= of their companies' relationship with BlackLight.=20 BlackLight officials said that in their laboratories on Old Trenton Road, t= he calorimeter boxes are running at commercial power intensities right now,= generating over 100 times the energy of combustion of hydrogen gas, and in= just a few years the technology could go commercial.=20 Mills envisions gas stations being operated on this technology, gleaning hy= drogen from breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen, and using the hyd= rino generation to fuel cars. This would cut the cost of fuel for cars by o= ne-third, he said.=20 "Power companies are investing because they don't want to miss the train if= it leaves the station," one observer said.=20 The company is privately traded, and has no public shares.=20 BlackLight was issued a U.S. patent in February 2000 for the hydrino proces= s, but the patent office would not approve another BlackLight patent applic= ation after Park harshly criticized the science behind it in the press.=20 The company responded by taking legal action against the patent office. The= court decided in favor of the patent office, as did the U.S. Court of Appe= als in 2002.=20 Some speculated that the blow to the patent curtailed BlackLight's entrance= into public trading. "The long-awaited IPO may have to wait a little longe= r," Park wrote in a published article about the 2002 court decision.=20 Some scientists are not as candid as Park, apparently fearing what Park sai= d were BlackLight's published statements threatening to sue anyone who crit= icized the company in the media.=20 Though the lawsuits never materialized, two Princeton University scientists= refused to comment about BlackLight for this article because of the lawsui= t scare. A spokesperson for the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory also de= clined to comment.=20 Park said he is "too old" to fear lawsuits at this point, and doesn't mind = speaking his mind about BlackLight. "It's clearly fraudulent, I don't hesit= ate to say that," he said.=20 Others who are just learning about BlackLight remain skeptical, but do not = rule out the possibility that BlackLight has promise.=20 http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1136192775314670.xml&co= ll=3D5&thispage=3D1 ------=_NextPart_000_038F_01C61876.AE55E470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quantum leap in physics?

Monday, January 02, 2006
By ELIZABETH LANDAU

EAST WINDSOR - Traversing the long, sterile white cor= ridors=20 of BlackLight Power's offices here, technicians in lab coats and safety gog= gles=20 are hard at work on what they believe is a scientific revolution.

They meticulously examine tubes of gray powder, gener= ate=20 purple plasma in a tube and measure the temperature changes in large water= =20 baths. In warehouse-like rooms, each filled with various gadgets and=20 experiments, a controversial new form of energy sizzles.

According to BlackLight's founder, a cheap, non-pollu= ting=20 energy is generated 1,000 times more efficiently than conventional power=20 sources.

However, there is considerable skepticism in the scie= ntific=20 community, and to many, BlackLight's claims defy the laws of physics.=20

Within months, company officials say, they will offer= =20 critical information and possibly even a prototype of an energy generating= =20 device that functions according to the principles that BlackLight's founder= ,=20 Randell Mills, says he has discovered.

With enough financial and marketing support, the ener= gy=20 could be available for use worldwide in just a few years, BlackLight resear= chers=20 say.

Park read Mills' 900-page tome explaining his "hydrino" generation theor= y and=20 was not impressed.

"A lot of it has just been lifted from standard textbooks, but twisted t= o=20 make his point," said Park, who wrote about BlackLight in his 2000 book, "V= oodoo=20 Science." "It is impossible for their (BlackLight's) quantum mechanics to b= e=20 right."

According to standard quantum mechanics, in a hydrogen atom there is one= =20 proton (positive charge) and one orbiting electron (negative charge) that a= re=20 separated by a fixed distance between the electron and the atom's nucleus. =

But BlackLight's Mills contends that by exciting hydrogen gas with a cataly= st=20 gas, the electron actually moves closer to the proton, creating a previousl= y=20 unrecognized state of hydrogen dubbed a "hydrino." This hydrino formation= =20 releases up to 1,000 times as much energy as ordinary hydrogen combustion, = Mills=20 said.

Mills recognizes that skepticism abounds, but stands firmly behind his= =20 theory.

"People get very defensive because they've set up a belief system," Mill= s=20 said. "They say they're standing on shoulders of the great minds. Well, the= y're=20 going to be standing in the unemployment lines wishing they'd studied=20 engineering."

Unlike some scientists viewed as cranks, Mills is not some spiky-haired = guy=20 in a T-shirt operating out of his garage. The confident, 6-foot 5-inch scie= ntist=20 studied electrical engineering at MIT and earned a medical degree from Harv= ard.=20

The company has already raised $40 million, he said, and operates on abo= ut=20 53,000 square feet in the former Lockheed-Martin assembly plant.

Mills got the idea for the BlackLight process when he was working on a= =20 project at MIT on free-electron lasers, in which individual electrons emit = laser=20 light. He decided to apply Maxwell's Equations (on electric and magnetic fi= elds)=20 to the level of the atom and found that he could get all of the fundamental= =20 properties of the atom to work out. The novel application predicts a new fo= rm of=20 energy, he said.

The technology is also environment-friendly, Mills says, since it does n= ot=20 release air pollutants or radioactive waste. Instead, BlackLight scientists= say,=20 the chemical process releases new hydrino-based "hydride compounds" that co= uld=20 have commercial applications.

"This technology could eliminate gasoline altogether,= " said=20 Mills of his radical theory. "I think it will have extraordinary impact."= =20

But if BlackLight is for real, a century of scientifi= c=20 achievement - not to mention every accredited chemistry textbook worldwide = - is=20 fiction. BlackLight's energy production relies on Mills' unconventional the= ory=20 of atoms, one that fundamentally contradicts standard quantum mechanics.=20

"Quantum mechanics has duped the world that there is = . . .=20 all this strange stuff that has never been verified," Mills said. "It turns= out=20 you can solve enormously complex problems by treating electrons differently= ."=20

One of BlackLight's most outspoken critics has been R= obert=20 Park, director of public information for the American Physical Society.=20

"It makes nuclear energy obsolete, oil-power cars obsolete, solar and wi= nd=20 energy irrelevant," said Kurt Davies, research director at Greenpeace. "We = need=20 a miracle to solve global warming. I cross my fingers and hope that BlackLi= ght=20 is part of that solution."

Though Greenpeace does not receive money from BlackLight, the two=20 organizations share a "philosophical partnership," Davies said.

In May, Greenpeace invited researchers at the University of North Caroli= na at=20 Asheville to check out BlackLight and make independent assessments of the= =20 technology. After a week of calculation and experimentation, UNC environmen= tal=20 studies Professor Rick Maas and physics Professor Randy Booker reportedly a= re=20 convinced of BlackLight's potential.

The researchers examined and played with water lasers, kilns, calorimete= rs=20 and other gadgets and agreed that in each set-up, it seemed that hydrogen= =20 collapsed into hydrinos, creating energy.

"The experiments really speak for themselves; it's overwhelming that the= y=20 give off excess energy," Booker said. "I saw it with my own eyes and my own= =20 calculations."

Though Booker said he continues to keep an open mind and maintains=20 skepticism, he hasn't found "any major boo-boos," and said BlackLight could= be a=20 big breakthrough as a non-polluting, renewable energy source.

Mills inspired Jonathan Phillips, national lab professor at the Universi= ty of=20 New Mexico, to undertake his own experiments using the hydrino-generating= =20 principles, and Phillips said he found the same results. "It's a done deal.= It's=20 a superior theory by far," he said.

But the very idea that electrons could move closer than normal to the nu= cleus=20 - that is, in a lower energy state than the minimum set in quantum mechanic= s -=20 screams of fraud to other scientists.

"It's nonsense, of course; there's no such thing as a lower energy level= ,"=20 said Michael Romalis, professor of physics at Princeton University. "It's= =20 basically junk science."

Despite the technological and scientific backlash, BlackLight officials = say=20 they get plenty of respect from the corporate world. The company wants to= =20 license its technology on a non-exclusive basis, and make it available for = use=20 or marketing anywhere in the world.

Companies that reportedly have invested in BlackLight include Atlantic C= ity=20 Electric and Delmarva Power - formerly known as Connectiv - and PacifiCorp,= a=20 West Coast electricity company. But representatives of these companies with= =20 knowledge of the investments were unavailable to comment on the status of t= heir=20 companies' relationship with BlackLight.

BlackLight officials said that in their laboratories on Old Trenton Road= , the=20 calorimeter boxes are running at commercial power intensities right now,=20 generating over 100 times the energy of combustion of hydrogen gas, and in = just=20 a few years the technology could go commercial.

Mills envisions gas stations being operated on this technology, gleaning= =20 hydrogen from breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen, and using the= =20 hydrino generation to fuel cars. This would cut the cost of fuel for cars b= y=20 one-third, he said.

"Power companies are investing because they don't want to miss the train if= it=20 leaves the station," one observer said.

The company is privately traded, and has no public shares.

BlackLight was issued a U.S. patent in February 2000 for the hydrino pro= cess,=20 but the patent office would not approve another BlackLight patent applicati= on=20 after Park harshly criticized the science behind it in the press.

The company responded by taking legal action against the patent office. = The=20 court decided in favor of the patent office, as did the U.S. Court of Appea= ls in=20 2002.

Some speculated that the blow to the patent curtailed BlackLight's entra= nce=20 into public trading. "The long-awaited IPO may have to wait a little longer= ,"=20 Park wrote in a published article about the 2002 court decision.

Some scientists are not as candid as Park, apparently fearing what Park = said=20 were BlackLight's published statements threatening to sue anyone who critic= ized=20 the company in the media.

Though the lawsuits never materialized, two Princeton University scienti= sts=20 refused to comment about BlackLight for this article because of the lawsuit= =20 scare. A spokesperson for the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory also decl= ined=20 to comment.

Park said he is "too old" to fear lawsuits at this point, and doesn't mi= nd=20 speaking his mind about BlackLight. "It's clearly fraudulent, I don't hesit= ate=20 to say that," he said.

Others who are just learning about BlackLight remain skeptical, but do n= ot=20 rule out the possibility that BlackLight has promise.

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf= ?/base/news-0/1136192775314670.xml&coll=3D5&thispage=3D1

------=_NextPart_000_038F_01C61876.AE55E470-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 17:13:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E1DLQD017329; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:13:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E1DISo017292; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:13:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:13:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:13:03 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E6BECD3F58DF-1FF4-144E0@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> <8C7E6AD4711A4E5-F34-117A1@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <5E3B07DE-9741-4CE5-84DF-D0B0B350FB31@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <5E3B07DE-9741-4CE5-84DF-D0B0B350FB31@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.132 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0E1DBw8017163 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner   All over the place is literature that refers to hydrogen adsorbed in Pd etc. as a *hydride*.    The above reference even says: "Hydrides can be roughly classified into three main types by the nature of bonding and structure:    Ionic hydrides  Covalent hydrides  Transitional metal hydrides, interstitial hydrides."    Apples can be divided into 3 main types:    Macintoshes  Apple II's  Others    So, does this mean my Mac is not an Apple, but rather a golden delicious?  <><><><><><> Don't get too defensive, Horace. I do not see this an a threat to your AEH. As all hypotheses, you might require some refinement. Consider that the xtal lattice acts as a proton membrane, not unlike those of a fuel cell. If you are right and the H atom cannot enter the lattice with its electron, it IS clearly entering the lattice. But, is it the lattice which strips the electron? And where does that electron go? I think that you could very well be right that it is the expansion of the H+ ion which distorts the lattice -- a reverse piezo effect? Except in piezo, it's the EXTERNAL piezo distortion which generates the energy; whereas, the reverse effect could draw from the virtual field. <><><><><><>   The verbiage in patent applications must be very rigorous, especially in the claims, but the claims generally use terminology from the description, which then so defines that terminology.  <><><><><><> Well, the patent HAS been rejected twice. <><><><><><>   Of side interest I see it says: "The dihydrogen molecule (H2) shares electron with palladium in some yet unknown manner and hides itself within the spaces of the palladium metal crystal structure." This person hasn't seen the literature on partial orbitals yet. 8^)  <><><><><><> Horace, YOU can change/modify the wiki article. Insert your ideas and see what happens! Respectfully, Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 19:21:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E3KNmn005261; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:20:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E3KLfp005247; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:20:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:20:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114032007812.C65651C00082@mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114032008.00d853d4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:20:08 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:13 pm 13/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: >Don't get too defensive, Horace. I do not see this an a threat to your >AEH. As all hypotheses, you might require some refinement. Consider >that the xtal lattice acts as a proton membrane, not unlike those of a >fuel cell. If you are right and the H atom cannot enter the lattice >with its electron, it IS clearly entering the lattice. But, is it the >lattice which strips the electron? And where does that electron go? > >I think that you could very well be right that it is the expansion of >the H+ ion which distorts the lattice -- a reverse piezo effect? >Except in piezo, it's the EXTERNAL piezo distortion which generates the >energy; whereas, the reverse effect could draw from the virtual field. ====================================== The giant read, "Seven at one stroke," thought that they had been men whom the tailor had killed, and began to feel a little respect for the tiny fellow. Nevertheless, he wished to try him first, and took a stone in his hand and squeezed it together so that water dropped out of it. "Do that likewise," said the giant, "if you have strength." "Is that all?" said the tailor, "that is child's play with us," and put his hand into his pocket, brought out the soft cheese, and pressed it until the liquid ran out of it. "Faith," said he, "that was a little better, wasn't it?" ====================================== Why are ductile metals ductile like plastic clays? It is because from a Systems Theory point of view they are plastic "clays". The mineral particle "bones", the particulate skeleton of clay is under a high differential pressure. That is what holds all the solid bits together. The water in clay is in a high state of negative pressure - thousands of pounds per square inch "tension". We know this because we can measure the "tension". I've put the word tension in quotes cos "tension" is only a reduction in the external Beta-atmosphere pressure. The water is under less Beta-atmosphere pressure inside the clay than it is outside the clay. Hence the differential pressure which holds the discrete mineral particle together and gives the clay its strength. If you expose plastic clay to a high humidity atmosphere it will "suck" the water from the atmosphere and swell. "Swelling" is simply a reduction in the pre-existing compression. Now in the case of ductile metals, what is the analogue of the water in clay. It is free electrons. When the giant squeezes a quartz crystal electrons drip out. It's called the piezo-electric effect. When the little tailor dips his dry cheese in his tea, the cheese swells up. Clearly, the swelling of the Palladium is due to the freeing of electrons from the hydrogen and the consequent reduction in whatever corresponds to pF in a ductile metal. I apologise for being so beastly arrogant but sometimes that is the only way to get people to see things from a new perspective. 8-) Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 19:54:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E3sFWF024033; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E3sDKN024013; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:54:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:54:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c618be$2ca65930$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: On the "Make" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:54:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Make" the magazine... or is that "mook"? There is a way-cool new journalism vehicle - out there in publishing-land, which is considerably more than a popular magazine but less than book. They are actually calling it a "mook". Maybe they didn't know that this word was already in the slang vocabulary. It has little advertising, few lightweight fillers (which is 9-% of 'Popular Mechanics'), lots of neat pictures, and several hundred pages of detailed off-the-wall science projects and great ideas, so it is definitely nerd-oriented - aimed towards the guy (maybe there is one female subscriber) who like to 'make' things. Thus the name "Make". It is only slightly oriented towards robotics and computers... as expected, given the number target audience. And guess what. In issue # 3 there is a way-cool story on Ed Storms including many photos of his home-lab. Undoubtedly Ed's is the one of the few home labs in the civilized world with its own electron microscope. I started to say 'only home lab' but remembered visiting Ken Shoulders a few years back when he lived up the road in Freestone Valley. I'm not sure if Ken's rig is actually in the same genre, but that is beside the point. Both of these guys have way-cools labs and many techno-toys. Anyway, "Make" the "mook" is definitely something unique in the media world these days, and one which I thought would only be available over the internet due to the cost of this kind of thing in print (it is available online for subscribers) but at least it is in-print now and easily accessible for the modest price of $15 an issue (a bargain really)... at least it is in print for however long it takes them to burn through their venture capital... but naturally I hope it succeeds. Yet, how could anything this wonderful (from the warped perspective of something which actually "matters" ) ever succeed in a world of "fluff" and frivolous content ? Ed - how come you never mentioned this great mook before (or did you?). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 20:28:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E4Rw0H004891; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:27:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E4Rulh004876; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:27:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:27:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c618c2$da2aadf0$15027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20060114032008.00d853d4@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:27:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, Tension, not tensile... yet tensile.! Hows that for descriptive? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent > At 08:13 pm 13/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: > >>Don't get too defensive, Horace. I do not see this an a threat to your >>AEH. As all hypotheses, you might require some refinement. Consider >>that the xtal lattice acts as a proton membrane, not unlike those of a >>fuel cell. If you are right and the H atom cannot enter the lattice >>with its electron, it IS clearly entering the lattice. But, is it the >>lattice which strips the electron? And where does that electron go? >> >>I think that you could very well be right that it is the expansion of >>the H+ ion which distorts the lattice -- a reverse piezo effect? >>Except in piezo, it's the EXTERNAL piezo distortion which generates the >>energy; whereas, the reverse effect could draw from the virtual field. > > > ====================================== > The giant read, "Seven at one stroke," > thought that they had been men whom > the tailor had killed, and began to > feel a little respect for the tiny > fellow. Nevertheless, he wished to try > him first, and took a stone in his hand > and squeezed it together so that water > dropped out of it. > > "Do that likewise," said the > giant, "if you have strength." > > "Is that all?" said the tailor, "that > is child's play with us," and put his > hand into his pocket, brought out the > soft cheese, and pressed it until the > liquid ran out of it. "Faith," said he, > "that was a little better, wasn't it?" > ====================================== > > Why are ductile metals ductile like plastic clays? > > It is because from a Systems Theory point of view they > are plastic "clays". > > The mineral particle "bones", the particulate skeleton > of clay is under a high differential pressure. That is > what holds all the solid bits together. The water in > clay is in a high state of negative pressure - thousands > of pounds per square inch "tension". We know this because > we can measure the "tension". I've put the word tension > in quotes cos "tension" is only a reduction in the > external Beta-atmosphere pressure. The water is under > less Beta-atmosphere pressure inside the clay than it > is outside the clay. Hence the differential pressure > which holds the discrete mineral particle together and > gives the clay its strength. > > If you expose plastic clay to a high humidity atmosphere > it will "suck" the water from the atmosphere and swell. > "Swelling" is simply a reduction in the pre-existing > compression. > > Now in the case of ductile metals, what is the analogue > of the water in clay. It is free electrons. > > When the giant squeezes a quartz crystal electrons drip > out. It's called the piezo-electric effect. > > When the little tailor dips his dry cheese in his tea, > the cheese swells up. > > Clearly, the swelling of the Palladium is due to the > freeing of electrons from the hydrogen and the consequent > reduction in whatever corresponds to pF in a ductile metal. > > I apologise for being so beastly arrogant but sometimes > that is the only way to get people to see things from a > new perspective. 8-) > > Cheers, > > Frank > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 20:35:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E4ZGrr008944; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:35:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E4ZEMg008919; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:35:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:35:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E6BECD3F58DF-1FF4-144E0@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E6842AB30F07-1840-138F4@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <00d001c61871$141bb8d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7E6A1EA25245C-1840-13F44@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> <2BB95FD0-BCCE-4E4F-8668-251BFE782A6B@mtaonline.net> <8C7E6AD4711A4E5-F34-117A1@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <5E3B07DE-9741-4CE5-84DF-D0B0B350FB31@mtaonline.net> <8C7E6BECD3F58DF-1FF4-144E0@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <67AE36B6-C84D-4245-9947-7FCD9372964E@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:33:04 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 13, 2006, at 4:13 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner > > All over the place is literature that refers to hydrogen adsorbed > in Pd etc. as a *hydride*. > > The above reference even says: "Hydrides can be roughly classified > into three main types by the nature of bonding and structure: > > Ionic hydrides > Covalent hydrides > Transitional metal hydrides, interstitial hydrides." > > Apples can be divided into 3 main types: > > Macintoshes > Apple II's > Others > > So, does this mean my Mac is not an Apple, but rather a golden > delicious? > > <><><><><><> > > Don't get too defensive, Horace. Not defensive. Just poking fun at bad logic. I should have used a smiley. 8^) I just have to wonder if that application is just a troll, or maybe a student project. > I do not see this an a threat to your AEH. Any hypothesis is only as good as nature allows it to be. > As all hypotheses, you might require some refinement. Consider > that the xtal lattice acts as a proton membrane, not unlike those > of a fuel cell. If you are right and the H atom cannot enter the > lattice with its electron, it IS clearly entering the lattice. Once in the lattice, the proton carries along an electron with it in the conduction band. The electron initially is supplied by current to the cathode. The proton that enters the cathode from the electrolyte has no electron with it to begin with. It is part of an H3O+ cation called hydronium. Some of the hydronium is electrolyzed by electrons that tunnel through the two molecule thick interface, and these protons result in evolved hydrogen. However, some of the protons make it in the other direction through the interface to the lattice, and are there adsorbed. Upon adsorption they are paired with an electron, at least statistically paired with one electron on net balance. Hydrogen nuclei can singly tunnel through the face holes, but when doing so the lattice adjusts charge via phonons, with the proton still ending up paired with a net electron at its hop location. When the proton ends up in a space not large enough for the hydrogen atom to form, the paired electron resides in a partial orbital which applies pressure to the lattice. The electron in the partial orbital is found some of the time in the conduction band and some of the time in the orbital near the proton. In the tetrahedral site in Pd there is room for a complete hydrogen molecule H2, with just a bit of pressure on the lattice, a few percent expansion. A proton have an electron in a partial orbital doesn't stay put long because the pressure differential makes hopping energetically favorable. Favorable that is until fugacity reaches a critical point and the hydrogen forms lots of back-to-back sites filled with H2 molecules that drops the tunneling rate substantially, blocks diffusion, causes lattice expansion, and reduces lattice conductivity. > But, is it the lattice which strips the electron? And where does > that electron go? The electron is statistically there to begin with, supplied to the conduction band by the power supply. The proton has to have an energetic point to tunnel to enter the lattice. As the proton of a hydronium radical approaches the vicinity of the cathode there is an mirror charge image induced on the cathode (kind of like an electron work function, only in reverse.) By the time the proton tunnels to the site there is merely a phonon adjustment required to accommodate the new field. > > I think that you could very well be right that it is the expansion > of the H+ ion which distorts the lattice -- a reverse piezo > effect? Except in piezo, it's the EXTERNAL piezo distortion which > generates the energy; whereas, the reverse effect could draw from > the virtual field. > > <><><><><><> > > The verbiage in patent applications must be very rigorous, > especially in the claims, but the claims generally use terminology > from the description, which then so defines that terminology. > > <><><><><><> > > Well, the patent HAS been rejected twice. > > <><><><><><> > > Of side interest I see it says: "The dihydrogen molecule (H2) > shares electron with palladium in some yet unknown manner and hides > itself within the spaces of the palladium metal crystal structure." > This person hasn't seen the literature on partial orbitals yet. 8^) > > <><><><><><> > > Horace, YOU can change/modify the wiki article. Insert your ideas > and see what happens! I'll just wait till my crackpot ideas show up there represented as some kind of fact and then point out they are crackpot ideas. 8^) > > Respectfully, No need for any respect! Irreverent incorrigible curmudgeon, Horace Heffner PS: Hey, that new spelling checker works wonders! 8^) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 21:03:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E537U9019676; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:03:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E535dq019635; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:03:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:03:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:02:45 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E6DEE4652D71-7B0-1F724@mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060114032008.00d853d4@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060114032008.00d853d4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.69 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Grimer I apologise for being so beastly arrogant but sometimes that is the only way to get people to see things from a new perspective. 8-) <><><><><><><> It's not arrogant, Mr. Grimer. It's POEtic. MCBJ Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 13 22:12:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0E6CNGo015168; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:12:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0E6CLJE015158; Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:12:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:12:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114061210773.BCEEF6400081@mwinf3109.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114061212.009794e4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 06:12:12 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It may possibly help understanding if I amplify my previous remarks with the following explanation of proton-electron interaction outside and inside palladium. ..................................................... ..................................................... .........External Beta-atmosphere pressure........... ..................................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... ...O O O O O O O..................................... ...O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o.... ...O O . . . > . . . . > . . o o.... ...O PROTON O. . . . . . . . . . . . o e o.... ...O O . . . < . . . . < . . .o o.... ...O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o.... ...O O O O O O O..................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... ..................................................... Fig.1 Bernoulli pressure drop between P and e relative to the external environment Fig.1 shows the difference in pressure brought about by the electric and magnetic flow and counter flow (vortex tube) between the proton and the electron when the hydrogen atom is outside the palladium and subjected to full external Beta-atmosphere pressure. The concentration of dots represents the magnitude of the pressure. Because of the Bernoulli pressure drop between the proton and the electron they are pushed together by the external beta atmosphere pressure. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Internal Beta-atmosphere pressure. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . o o. . . .O PROTON O. . . . . . . . . . . . o e o . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . .o o. . . .O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o . . . O O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Fig.2 No Bernoulli pressure drop between P and e relative to the internal environment Figure 2 show the situation inside the palladium. The Beta-atmosphere pressure surrounding the proton -electron complex is reduced to the point that the Bernoulli pressure drop disappears. The electron is no longer pushed towards the proton and is free to wander about in an analogous way, and for the same reason that ions are free to wander about in aqueous solutions. Obviously, I have represented a boundary case, but this in essence is what is going on inside the palladium. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 02:23:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EANDNA011558; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:23:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EANBOQ011538; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:23:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:23:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4B890721-CF88-4768-A752-40DB3067BB50@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Quark Size, Szpak Cell Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:21:01 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Heisenberg traps article has been updated with a computation of minimum uncertainty of quark size based on the measured temperature inside the Dy nucleus. The result was 1.10 x10^-14 m. If interested see: Also some old posts on the Szpak cell were combined and edited to make: Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 02:33:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EAWlVE014785; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:32:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EAWhF0014756; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:32:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:32:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060114061212.009794e4@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060114061212.009794e4@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:30:37 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How does the repulsion between two protons work in your model, in and out of the latice? Horace On Jan 13, 2006, at 9:12 PM, Grimer wrote: > It may possibly help understanding if I amplify my previous > remarks with the following explanation of proton-electron > interaction outside and inside palladium. > > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > .........External Beta-atmosphere pressure........... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ...O O O O O O O..................................... > ...O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o.... > ...O O . . . > . . . . > . . o o.... > ...O PROTON O. . . . . . . . . . . . o e o.... > ...O O . . . < . . . . < . . .o o.... > ...O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o.... > ...O O O O O O O..................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > ..................................................... > > Fig.1 Bernoulli pressure drop between P and e > relative to the external environment > > > Fig.1 shows the difference in pressure brought about > by the electric and magnetic flow and counter flow > (vortex tube) between the proton and the electron > when the hydrogen atom is outside the palladium and > subjected to full external Beta-atmosphere pressure. > The concentration of dots represents the magnitude > of the pressure. Because of the Bernoulli pressure > drop between the proton and the electron they are > pushed together by the external beta atmosphere > pressure. > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . .Internal Beta-atmosphere pressure. . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . O O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . .O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o . . > . O O . . . . . . . . . . . o o. . > . .O PROTON O. . . . . . . . . . . . o e o . . > . O O . . . . . . . . . . . .o o. . > . .O O. . . . . . . . . . . . o o o o o . . > . O O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > Fig.2 No Bernoulli pressure drop between P and e > relative to the internal environment > > > Figure 2 show the situation inside the palladium. > The Beta-atmosphere pressure surrounding the proton > -electron complex is reduced to the point that the > Bernoulli pressure drop disappears. The electron is > no longer pushed towards the proton and is free to > wander about in an analogous way, and for the same > reason that ions are free to wander about in aqueous > solutions. > > Obviously, I have represented a boundary case, but > this in essence is what is going on inside the > palladium. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 03:20:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EBKYMS031515; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:20:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EBKXuj031503; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:20:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:20:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=oUY97HwvTExza8aWBpiU9nKEe0ihvmEiO1P7n7222ogaBj8CbQQqJVqf+yR2BQW0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006161411202820@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sawtooth Plate in Motion? Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:20:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402286b07fef99d2a7369fdd7e7387e23f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.148 Resent-Message-ID: <6E7HPC.A.LsH.B6NyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Before digging out the vacuum cleaner and a piece of Styrofoam and carving out a hunk. Or rotating a 4 inch diameter sawtooth disk on a digital scale.... P2 (Air) Px ? __/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|__/| -------> Direction of Motion |_____________________________| P1 (Air) Upward Force??? More coffee please. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Before digging out the vacuum cleaner and a piece of Styrofoam
and carving out a hunk.  Or rotating a 4 inch diameter sawtooth disk on a
digital scale....
 
                           P2  (Air)
Px ? __/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|__/| ------->    Direction of Motion
          |_____________________________|
                          P1  (Air)
 
Upward Force???
 
More coffee please.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 05:01:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ED0tEr002671; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:00:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ED0qVp002637; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:00:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114130032415.6571B9000087@mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:00:33 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: <9ZxexD.A.Ap.DYPyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:30 am 14/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > How does the repulsion between two protons work > in your model, in and out of the lattice? > > Horace That's a good question Horace cos it obviously relates to the possibility of deuterons approaching deuterons and fusing. All I can do is to repeat what I have said clearly on more than one occasion. The Beta-atmosphere pressure inside materials is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. This means that the physics is going to be very different inside than outside. Think Dr.Who's police box. I am in the process of writing a post on The Horace Hiatus, the gap between wavelength and water. On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, ==================================================== That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna sets up its own field that interferes with the big incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never did understand that effect. ==================================================== I only wish the professionals I had to deal with during my four decades of government research had a fraction of the thirst for knowledge of the truth about nature that you display. 8-) In response to your observation, I commented, ================================================= On the other hand it could be because it collects energy, not from the transverse wave but from the much shorter longitudinal wave. ================================================= At the time I intuitively realised that was right - but I couldn'd see why. Now I can. 8-) I've downloaded photos of the following relevant paper onto the Beta-atmosphere_group Yahoo site, On the Nature of Mass, F.HOYLE & J.V.NARLIKAR Nature Vol. 233, September 1971, pp.41-44 Anyone who wants to understand my deceptively simple next post will be well advised to read that paper first. They may then avoid stepping straight into the merde on their way to the Vortex archives. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 05:03:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ED0F0E002361; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:03:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EClx65029313; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:47:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nh85HkCnO7/4n7JFerUEbFCWciMm2JJ4faVNW/Umh5p5pSItB11l8p8dUcjb4eKi; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061614124747656@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Sawtooth Plate in Motion? Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 05:47:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405aa4ab8cbfcdc9ade18a6891bc28d7de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.76 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It might be 4th grade level, but it's news to me. :-) My little 30 gram,1.5 to 3.0 volt D.C. motor is rated at 8300 rpm max. http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 1/14/2006 4:20:40 AM Subject: Re: Sawtooth Plate in Motion? Before digging out the vacuum cleaner and a piece of Styrofoam and carving out a hunk. Or rotating a 4 inch diameter sawtooth disk on a digital scale.... P2 (Air) Px ? __/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|__/| -------> Direction of Motion |_____________________________| P1 (Air) Upward Force??? More coffee please. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
It might be 4th grade level, but it's news to me.   :-)
 
My little 30 gram,1.5 to 3.0 volt D.C. motor is rated at 8300 rpm max.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/14/2006 4:20:40 AM
Subject: Re: Sawtooth Plate in Motion?

Before digging out the vacuum cleaner and a piece of Styrofoam
and carving out a hunk.  Or rotating a 4 inch diameter sawtooth disk on a
digital scale....
 
                           P2  (Air)
Px ? __/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|___/|__/| ------->    Direction of Motion
          |_____________________________|
                          P1  (Air)
 
Upward Force???
 
More coffee please.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 07:08:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EF8ZHL018935; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:08:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EF8XYH018918; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:08:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:08:20 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E7337D97ACDB-1F28-AAD2@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Grimer The Beta-atmosphere pressure inside materials is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. <><><><><><> Almost 40 orders of magnitude comparing Puthoff's conjecture of a Planck cutoff frequency for the ZPF with the mass of the proton (as I mentioned in an earlier post.). Others argue, however, that Puthoff's peak frequency is too high but still higher than the proton mass density. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 08:52:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EGqMnB025188; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:52:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EGqI56025148; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:52:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:52:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114160238448.6D8661C0008B@mwinf3203.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114160239.0097d810@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:02:39 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The Horace Hiatus Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0EGq92x025029 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Horace, On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, ==================================================== That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna sets up its own field that interferes with the big incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never did understand that effect. ==================================================== Now just how "giant" is that wavelength gap between cms and the size of "that tiny molecule". Well, if we go to Prof. Chaplin's unsurpassed website on the properties of water we will find a water molecule, as pretty as a picture, at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html The accompanying text reads, ==================================================== The mean van der Waals diameter of water has been reported as identical with that of isoelectronic neon (2.82 Å) [112]. Molecular model values and intermediate peak radial distribution data indicates however that it is somewhat greater (~3.2Å). The molecule is clearly not spherical, however, with about a ±5% variation in van der Waals diameter dependent on the axis chosen; approximately tetrahedrally placed slight indentations being apparent opposite the (putative) electron pairs. ==================================================== American philosopher and psychologist, Bill James, wrote "The are of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook." We won't worry about the details, then, and take the size of the molecule as 3 angstroms. 3 angstroms = 3.0 × 10^[-10] meters So we are not talking simply about a gap, we are talking about a Grand Canyon. We are talking an order of magnitude of orders of magnitude. If Dr.Strangelove's missile gap, had been that big it would mean Russkie megatons against Yankee waterpistols. Why, even the barley loaf gap was only 3 orders of magnitude ===================================== est puer unus hic qui habet quinque panes hordiacios et duos pisces sed haec quid sunt inter tantos dixit ergo Iesus facite homines discumbere erat autem faenum multum in loco discubuerunt ergo viri numero quasi quinque milia ==================================== If Goliath had been that much bigger, then David needn't have bothered with his stones from the brook. The moon would have done the job for him. So how can this almost unimaginable chasm be breached. ============================================== et respondens illi Iesus dixit quid vis tibi faciam caecus autem dixit ei rabboni ut videam ============================================== And now that I do see, I realise that mu, the longitudinal wave length of light is simply this mu = lambda/c give or take a slice or two of mothers apple pi, possibly 8-) Where mu is the longitudinal wave length lambda is the familiar transverse wavelength c is the velocity of light. ...like the contents of the spittoon - it's all in one piece. 8-) Cheers, Grimer 88 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 09:23:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EHMiG2004228; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:22:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EHMfAs004205; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:22:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:22:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <042c01c6192a$723c19a0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Univ of NC and NM Profs Endorse BlackLight Power Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:48:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0429_01C61900.75EA46A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C61900.75EA46A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interestingly, the usually indifferent environmental community is = actually actively investigating BlackLight Power to see if they can = solve our energy problems and pollution problems as well. Also = professors from Univ of NC and NM have examined and endorsed Randy = Mill's discovery. I don't know, but this seems to be gaining traction. Quantum leap in physics? Monday, January 02, 2006=20 By ELIZABETH LANDAU=20 "It makes nuclear energy obsolete, oil-power cars obsolete, solar and = wind energy irrelevant," said Kurt Davies, research director at = Greenpeace. "We need a miracle to solve global warming. I cross my = fingers and hope that BlackLight is part of that solution."=20 Though Greenpeace does not receive money from BlackLight, the two = organizations share a "philosophical partnership," Davies said.=20 In May, Greenpeace invited researchers at the University of North = Carolina at Asheville to check out BlackLight and make independent = assessments of the technology. After a week of calculation and = experimentation, UNC environmental studies Professor Rick Maas and = physics Professor Randy Booker reportedly are convinced of BlackLight's = potential.=20 The researchers examined and played with water lasers, kilns, = calorimeters and other gadgets and agreed that in each set-up, it seemed = that hydrogen collapsed into hydrinos, creating energy.=20 "The experiments really speak for themselves; it's overwhelming that = they give off excess energy," Booker said. "I saw it with my own eyes = and my own calculations."=20 Though Booker said he continues to keep an open mind and maintains = skepticism, he hasn't found "any major boo-boos," and said BlackLight = could be a big breakthrough as a non-polluting, renewable energy source. = Mills inspired Jonathan Phillips, national lab professor at the = University of New Mexico, to undertake his own experiments using the = hydrino-generating principles, and Phillips said he found the same = results. "It's a done deal. It's a superior theory by far," he said.=20 http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1136192775314670.xml&= coll=3D5&thispage=3D1 ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C61900.75EA46A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interestingly,=20 the usually indifferent environmental community is actually actively=20 investigating BlackLight Power to see if they can solve our energy = problems and=20 pollution problems as well. Also professors from Univ of NC and NM have = examined=20 and endorsed Randy Mill's discovery. I don't know, but this seems to be = gaining=20 traction.

Quantum leap in=20 physics?

Monday, January 02, 2006
By = ELIZABETH=20 LANDAU

<SNIP>

"It makes nuclear energy=20 obsolete, oil-power cars obsolete, solar and wind energy irrelevant," = said Kurt=20 Davies, research director at Greenpeace. "We need a miracle to solve = global=20 warming. I cross my fingers and hope that BlackLight is part of that = solution."=20

Though Greenpeace does not receive money from BlackLight, the = two=20 organizations share a "philosophical partnership," Davies said. =

In May,=20 Greenpeace invited researchers at the University of North Carolina at = Asheville=20 to check out BlackLight and make independent assessments of the = technology.=20 After a week of calculation and experimentation, UNC environmental = studies=20 Professor Rick Maas and physics Professor Randy Booker reportedly are = convinced=20 of BlackLight's potential.

The researchers examined and played = with=20 water lasers, kilns, calorimeters and other gadgets and agreed that in = each=20 set-up, it seemed that hydrogen collapsed into hydrinos, creating = energy.=20

"The experiments really speak for themselves; it's overwhelming = that=20 they give off excess energy," Booker said. "I saw it with my own eyes = and my own=20 calculations."

Though Booker said he continues to keep an open = mind and=20 maintains skepticism, he hasn't found "any major boo-boos," and said = BlackLight=20 could be a big breakthrough as a non-polluting, renewable energy source. =

Mills inspired Jonathan Phillips, national lab professor at the=20 University of New Mexico, to undertake his own experiments using the=20 hydrino-generating principles, and Phillips said he found the same = results.=20 "It's a done deal. It's a superior theory by far," he said.=20



http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-0/11361= 92775314670.xml&coll=3D5&thispage=3D1 ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01C61900.75EA46A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 09:49:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EHmvUP019908; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:48:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EHmk5E019853; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:48:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Z+gA9L8zWHLGdXT7YEx0ijI2rTsdUe1zEOGJxecCeAnMtJ5Weug2wLbM8pDMtmlA; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061614174834197@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:48:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94028a20bb90fc210f6001b453a853b05dc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.57 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Frank Grimer wrote: > > The Beta-atmosphere pressure inside materials > is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than > it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. > As much as disagreement disagrees with me, Frank. :-) Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection and the Critical Angle sin theta Critical = (e2/e1)^1/2 requires that the permittivity (e1) of the energy wave (particle) be greater than that of the ether. IOW, the "particle" sets up it's own (circular) boundary conditions. Tan 0.41810964 deg = Alpha= 0.007297290 http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/ntnujava/light/flashLight.html Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Frank Grimer wrote:
 
>
> The Beta-atmosphere pressure inside materials
> is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than
> it is outside materials in allegedly empty space.
>
As much as disagreement disagrees with me, Frank.  :-)
 
Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection and the Critical Angle
sin theta Critical = (e2/e1)^1/2 requires that the permittivity (e1)
of the energy wave (particle) be greater than that of the ether.
 
IOW, the "particle" sets up it's own  (circular) boundary conditions.
 
Tan 0.41810964 deg = Alpha= 0.007297290   
 
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 09:50:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EHoZvZ020493; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:50:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EHoY7K020477; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:50:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <60F829EF-6449-4B05-8117-1767B9F7BCB8@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:48:22 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 14, 2006, at 4:00 AM, Grimer wrote: > At 01:30 am 14/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > >> How does the repulsion between two protons work >> in your model, in and out of the lattice? >> >> Horace > > > That's a good question Horace cos it obviously relates > to the possibility of deuterons approaching deuterons > and fusing. True, but my question mostly relates how similar balls repel by the same model that causes attraction. There should be a similarly short answer. > > All I can do is to repeat what I have said clearly on > more than one occasion. That is unfortunate. > The Beta-atmosphere pressure > inside materials is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than > it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. > > This means that the physics is going to be very different > inside than outside. Think Dr.Who's police box. > > I am in the process of writing a post on The Horace Hiatus, > the gap between wavelength and water. > > On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the > curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, > > ==================================================== > That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. > The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, > 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. > That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule > collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the > effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna > sets up its own field that interferes with the big > incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never > did understand that effect. > ==================================================== Actually I feel I have a basic understanding from the QM perspective, i.e. the photoelectric effect, but not from the "little antenna" perspective. However, *nothing* viewed from a QM perspective provides a comfortable feeling of understanding! From the QM perspective, the quantum wave of the photon, its quantum potential, its"possibility wave", can be very large. In fact it gets larger with distance. When the photon is absorbed it can under some circumstances eject an electron from a single atom. This is merely an example of quantum wavefunction collapse. The universe of potentialities for the photon is converted to just one single event at one location. This wavefunction collapse thing happens lots in QM, so you get accustomed to the concept. > > I only wish the professionals I had to deal with during > my four decades of government research had a fraction of > the thirst for knowledge of the truth about nature that > you display. 8-) > > In response to your observation, I commented, > > ================================================= > On the other hand it could be because it collects > energy, not from the transverse wave but from the > much shorter longitudinal wave. > ================================================= > > At the time I intuitively realised that was right - > but I couldn'd see why. Now I can. 8-) Well, the longitudinal concept doesn't provide much satisfaction. You are left with the same problem. The longitudinal portion of the photon, if such exists, and it is hard *not* to think it exists because it is hard *not* to think of a photon as a 3D object, must be spread over the same area of potentiality that the latitudinal stuff is. In other words the pancake may not be infinitely thin, but it still travels flat and when it hits flat it still has to deliver its energy essentially to a point. It does this even when hitting a flat surface in the photoelectric effect. > > I've downloaded photos of the following relevant paper > onto the Beta-atmosphere_group Yahoo site, > > On the Nature of Mass, F.HOYLE & J.V.NARLIKAR > Nature Vol. 233, September 1971, pp.41-44 Do you have a URL for that?" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 09:59:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EHxJAu023341; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EHxGSj023307; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060114160239.0097d810@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060114160239.0097d810@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:57:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0EHx7VV023249 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A 6 month Hiatus happens to be just what I need. My personal (i.e. real) life needs attention! On Jan 14, 2006, at 7:02 AM, Grimer wrote: > Hi Horace, > > On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the > curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, > > ==================================================== > That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. > The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, > 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. > That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule > collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the > effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna > sets up its own field that interferes with the big > incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never > did understand that effect. > ==================================================== > > Now just how "giant" is that wavelength gap between cms > and the size of "that tiny molecule". Well, if we go to > Prof. Chaplin's unsurpassed website on the properties > of water we will find a water molecule, as pretty as a > picture, at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html > > The accompanying text reads, > > ==================================================== > The mean van der Waals diameter of water has been > reported as identical with that of isoelectronic > neon (2.82 Å) [112]. Molecular model values and > intermediate peak radial distribution data indicates > however that it is somewhat greater (~3.2Å). The > molecule is clearly not spherical, however, with > about a ±5% variation in van der Waals diameter > dependent on the axis chosen; approximately > tetrahedrally placed slight indentations being > apparent opposite the (putative) electron pairs. > ==================================================== > > American philosopher and psychologist, Bill James, wrote > > "The are of being wise is the art > of knowing what to overlook." > > We won't worry about the details, then, and take the size > of the molecule as 3 angstroms. > > 3 angstroms = 3.0 × 10^[-10] meters > > So we are not talking simply about a gap, we are talking > about a Grand Canyon. We are talking an order of magnitude > of orders of magnitude. Well, yes, all the above was my point. How do cm sized wavelengths get absorbed by angstrom sized molecules and atoms according to the "little antenna" effect. > [snip] > And now that I do see, I realise that mu, the longitudinal > wave length of light is simply this > > mu = lambda/c > > give or take a slice or two of mothers apple pi, possibly 8-) > > Where mu is the longitudinal wave length > lambda is the familiar transverse wavelength > c is the velocity of light. > > ...like the contents of the spittoon - it's all in one piece. 8-) Well, the pancake may be lambda/c thin, but it still flies flat, so even in this model the same problem of how it gets picked by one molecule remains, i.e. how one molecule absorbs the energy from such a large area of potentiality. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 10:22:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EILbJb032118; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:21:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EILaVp032098; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:21:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:21:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114182124969.EC9717400084@mwinf3208.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114182126.00a289f0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:21:26 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0EILV68032026 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:57 am 14/01/2006 -0900, you wrote: >A 6 month Hiatus happens to be just what I need. My personal (i.e. >real) life needs attention! > >On Jan 14, 2006, at 7:02 AM, Grimer wrote: > >> Hi Horace, >> >> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the >> curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, >> >> ==================================================== >> That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. >> The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, >> 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. >> That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule >> collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the >> effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna >> sets up its own field that interferes with the big >> incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never >> did understand that effect. >> ==================================================== >> >> Now just how "giant" is that wavelength gap between cms >> and the size of "that tiny molecule". Well, if we go to >> Prof. Chaplin's unsurpassed website on the properties >> of water we will find a water molecule, as pretty as a >> picture, at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html >> >> The accompanying text reads, >> >> ==================================================== >> The mean van der Waals diameter of water has been >> reported as identical with that of isoelectronic >> neon (2.82 Å) [112]. Molecular model values and >> intermediate peak radial distribution data indicates >> however that it is somewhat greater (~3.2Å). The >> molecule is clearly not spherical, however, with >> about a ±5% variation in van der Waals diameter >> dependent on the axis chosen; approximately >> tetrahedrally placed slight indentations being >> apparent opposite the (putative) electron pairs. >> ==================================================== >> >> American philosopher and psychologist, Bill James, wrote >> >> "The are of being wise is the art >> of knowing what to overlook." >> >> We won't worry about the details, then, and take the size >> of the molecule as 3 angstroms. >> >> 3 angstroms = 3.0 × 10^[-10] meters >> >> So we are not talking simply about a gap, we are talking >> about a Grand Canyon. We are talking an order of magnitude >> of orders of magnitude. > >Well, yes, all the above was my point. How do cm sized wavelengths >get absorbed by angstrom sized molecules and atoms according to the >"little antenna" effect. > > >> [snip] >> And now that I do see, I realise that mu, the longitudinal >> wave length of light is simply this >> >> mu = lambda/c >> >> give or take a slice or two of mothers apple pi, possibly 8-) >> >> Where mu is the longitudinal wave length >> lambda is the familiar transverse wavelength >> c is the velocity of light. >> >> ...like the contents of the spittoon - it's all in one piece. 8-) > >Well, the pancake may be lambda/c thin, but it still flies flat, so >even in this model the same problem of how it gets picked by one >molecule remains, i.e. how one molecule absorbs the energy from such >a large area of potentiality. > >Horace Heffner Good point. Maybe that is where the Bill Beaty effect comes into play. I must say I learnt more about electricity by reading Bill's stuff than I ever learned anywhere else. A pancake is going to want to collapse to the maximum V/A value. Presumably the water molecule seeds that collapse. Good luck with your "real life". 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 10:36:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EIaSmZ005973; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:36:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EIaR09005959; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:36:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005e01c61939$6799a2b0$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060114130033.00a22f58@pop.freeserve.net> <8C7E7337D97ACDB-1F28-AAD2@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:36:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: F. Grimer > The Beta-atmosphere pressure > inside materials is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than > it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. > <><><><><><> > From: TB ... aka ...hohlraum > Almost 40 orders of magnitude comparing Puthoff's conjecture of > a Planck cutoff frequency for the ZPF with the mass of the > proton (as I mentioned in an earlier post.). Others argue, > however, that Puthoff's peak frequency is too high but still > higher than the proton mass density. I think this is a key point to Frank's theory that bears repeating for those who are not familiar with what he is suggesting - and even FG seldom jumps on this important detail with the needed emphasis - even if it turns out to be less than the "40 orders of magnitude" of Puthoff. To the extent that such things as "tensile strength" are a function of aether pressure external - instead of the internal inherent strength of chemical bonding - then the effective external pressure is NOT the measly ~15 psi alpha-atmosphere, as compared to a zero vacuum, but instead it is zero vacuum compared to a negative pressure (which FG sometimes denotes as pF) which is a much more significant differential effect. How much is "much" more significant ... is anybody's conjecture, and that figure of Puthoff is well considered by the leading expert. In straight engineering terms as used in the USA, my guess is that the negative pF works out to something in the range of 100,000 to 200,000 psi equivalent. Unlike FG, I differ in that the tensile strength of engineering materials is more likely based on both factors - the strength of the chemical bonding plus the beta-aether external pressure, and with a roughly equal contribution to tensile strength in such materials as carbon fiber which are around 400,000 psi. OTOH one could suggest that chemical bonding itself is an aether effect - maybe the gamma-aether. Then it just becomes semantics. Why do liquids, for instance, NOT have the minimum b-a tensile strength? ... a possible analogy: the same reason that a sieve swung through air has less resistance than a pot of the same size? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 12:21:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EKKdNJ012775; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:20:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EKKa1b012761; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:20:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060114202024155.25F236400086@mwinf3109.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060114202025.00a15dd4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:20:25 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:36 am 14/01/2006 -0800, Jones wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > Why do liquids, for instance, NOT have the minimum b-a tensile > strength? ... a possible analogy: the same reason that a sieve > swung through air has less resistance than a pot of the same size? > > Jones You must be psychic Jones cos I have just realised that a whole hierarchy of nets or sieves is the way to model the higher powers found in stuff like the three water vapours. When one compresses a region of space, it's like squeezing the sea with a net. One only catches fish bigger than the mesh size. As one reduces the mesh size smaller and smaller creatures are captured and the bulk modulus increases drastically. If one had a completely impermeable piston and cylinder then space would be incompressible. A case of the proverbial irresistible force meeting the immovable object. These hierarchies of substances are independent of each other and thus effectively constitute the metrics of independent spaces in much the same way as a series off overlaid graph papers of different colours and different gradations constitute a series of independent finite spaces. The isothermal, adiabatic compressions provide a chink in the armour and the VP laws should get us well on the road. The very high powers of the clay water system should reveal how asymmetry behaves. Once people cotton on to the hierarchical techniques of looking for discontinuities to use as zeros for the powers, they will start turning up everywhere. The beauty of a hierarchical system is that, like a mathematical series, once one can master the general term, one has mastered them all. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 12:22:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EKMIfC013456; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0EKMGRT013423; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012101c61948$2fe16c40$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01C61905.212A50B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C61905.212A50B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hybrid autos starting to get political?=20 Used to be - everybody ganged up against GM, but now Toyota will soon be = king of the hill, and the lines and alliances are being redrawn. Will = uncle Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a home-grown = US-produced "better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM ? "Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling = two high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the = annual Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the = volume to promote rival clean-engine technologies." http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-60260= 76.html A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not going to please that many tree-huggers = however. The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of = gasoline-electric hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from = Germany's DaimlerChrysler, which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries = are a better overall solution. That stance, however, seems indefensible = (OK stupid) IF far better batteries are in the offing. I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others = are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic = tactical error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. No VC = investor in the world has been as successful, or as admired in financial = circles from NY to London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner Perkins. They = are simply the top dog. To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has = been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he = has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club event yesterday in = Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech predictions: High = on the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward" investment. He didn't = mention it by name, but I will - EEStor. More on that later. Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than = gasoline engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they = now account for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are = claimed to be more easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is = questionable. Many of the historical negatives of diesels - such as = noise and cold-starts have been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is = generally cheaper - whereas here, the opposite seems to be true in = recent years. However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects = worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as = far away as ever to many observers, including Daimler, I disagree with = that assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent position) = would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part of the next = step in hybrids. Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending = that better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a = diesel in the Prius?" Jones BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that = an even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the = time frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good battery" or = "bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel = Prius, would be a total battery powered design ... but with a small = valveless Wankel as backup. Now let me add one more detail: Removable. Yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be an easily = removable-backup if it is light enough - and only the Wankel is light = enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but Deiter, down at the = garage, can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do = it in about 10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil change. For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added = into a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage. It could = even be a rented option - which is never used by many consumers - those = who do not need to go over 60-100 miles without a recharge. When you go = on vacation, however, you might swing by the dealer and Deiter pop in = the backup Wankel, as the electrical and fuel connections have already = come as standard, on your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low cost = battery-powered vehicle using the EEStor battery. Of course this scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a = lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. = They are now in the news again with this blip: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_= perkins.html EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a = breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination = of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under = construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by = Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds = as senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If = the prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then = this is a huge step forward.=20 According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims = the battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the = weight of lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid = per kw and 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the = anticipated unit weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a = fresh charge. Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is = available. It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good = battery" especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour. The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium = titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based = unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to = produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they = prove themselves to license the technology for volume production. = Selling price would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in = high-volume production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per = pound ($1+) but only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per = unit output and four times costlier for the same power.=20 But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first = to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet.=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C61905.212A50B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hybrid autos starting to get = political?=20
 
Used to be - everybody ganged up = against GM, but=20 now Toyota will soon be king of the hill, and the lines and alliances = are being=20 redrawn. Will uncle Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a = home-grown=20 US-produced "better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM=20 ?

"Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by = unveiling=20 two high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the = annual=20 Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the volume = to=20 promote rival clean-engine technologies."

http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-1138= 9_3-6026076.html
 
A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not = going to please=20 that many tree-huggers however.

The most vocal challenge against = the Prius=20 'exemplar' of gasoline-electric hybrid with substantial=20 battery power is coming from Germany's DaimlerChrysler, which = thinks=20 diesel engines-sans-batteries are a better overall solution. That = stance,=20 however, seems indefensible (OK stupid) IF far better batteries are = in the=20 offing.
 
I hope that Daimler does not know = something about=20 batteries that others are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems = like a=20 gigantic tactical error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. = No VC=20 investor in the world has been as successful, or as admired in financial = circles=20 from NY to London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner = Perkins. They are=20 simply the top dog.
 
To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article = cited below,=20 John Doerr of K-P has been talking up investments in energy and = environmental=20 startups, but he has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club = event=20 yesterday in Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech=20 predictions:  High on the list is his "highest-risk,=20 highest-reward" investment. He didn't mention it by name,  but I = will -=20 EEStor. More on that later.
 
Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent = better fuel=20 economy than gasoline engines of the same power at little added = cost - and=20 yes they now account for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They = are=20 claimed to be more easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is=20 questionable. Many of the historical negatives of diesels - such as = noise and=20 cold-starts have been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally = cheaper -=20 whereas here, the opposite seems to be true in recent = years.
 
However, there are now at least 100 = well-funded=20 R&D battery projects worldwide - and although the so-called "one = good=20 battery" seems to be as far away as ever to many observers, including = Daimler, I=20 disagree with that assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor = patent=20 position) would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part = of the=20 next step in hybrids.
 
Of course - the obvious question for = the next=20 couple of years, pending that better-battery going into mass = production -=20 is "why not use a diesel in the Prius?"
 
Jones
 
BTW. I am still sticking by the = assertion, made a=20 few months ago, that an even better solution for transportation, not = immediate=20 but for the time frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good = battery"=20 or "bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the = diesel=20 Prius, would be a total battery powered design ... but with a small = valveless=20 Wankel as backup. Now let me add one more detail:
 
Removable.
 
Yes, there is no good reason the backup = ICE cannot be an easily removable-backup if it is light enough = - and=20 only the Wankel is light enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but = Deiter,=20 down at the garage, can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and = Manuel how to=20 do it in about 10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil=20 change.
 
For longer trips, since the Wankel = is so=20 light-weight, it can be added into a small compartment that is = otherwise=20 used for storage. It could even be a rented option - which is never = used by=20 many consumers - those who do not need to go over 60-100 miles without a = recharge. When you go on vacation, however, you might swing by the = dealer and=20 Deiter pop in the backup Wankel, as the electrical and fuel connections = have=20 already come as standard, on your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low = cost=20 battery-powered vehicle using the EEStor battery.

Of course this=20 scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a lesser extent on = a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. They are now = in the=20 news again with this blip:
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/arc= hives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html

EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, = Texas startup=20 which has developed a breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds = more like=20 a combination of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype = factory is=20 under construction and may now be ready. The=20 company was founded in 2001 by Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard = S.=20 Weir, who have backgrounds as senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in=20 automotive nor batteries. If the prototype plant is actually being = finished - as=20 rumor has it - then this is a huge step forward.
 
According to "Utility Federal = Technology=20 Opportunities," EEStor claims the battery will be half the cost per = kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid batteries. = Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid per kw = and 1/10 the=20 weight for the same power? Specifically, the anticipated unit weighs 400 = pounds=20 and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge.
 
Doesn't sound like that much really, = but compare it=20 to what is available. It definitely = fits the=20 minimum requirements of "one good battery" especially the 10 times less = weight=20 per kilowatt-hour.

The technology is basically a parallel = plate=20 capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - = but is a=20 ceramic-based unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an = assembly=20 line - to produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then = after=20 they prove themselves to license the technology for volume production. = Selling=20 price would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in = high-volume=20 production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound ($1+) but = only a=20 tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit output and = four=20 times costlier for the same power.

But given the recent history of such = announcements -=20 I will be the first to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up = too=20 high just yet.

Jones

------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C61905.212A50B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 14:00:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0EM001x018898; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:00:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ELxwS7018877; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:59:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <012101c61948$2fe16c40$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:59:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2006 21:59:50.0413 (UTC) FILETIME=[D77213D0:01C61955] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three years, can be developed into UMES. These are Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage devices made with polymer, ambient temperature, Ultraconductors. A UMES should store twice what an equivalent flywheel can store, without moving parts. Obviously, it will be very much lighter. Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and difficulty accepting a very rapid charge, such as would be best for regenerative braking, UMES units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those characteristics. Ultracapacitors are falling in price. See the latest Maxwell units. Electron flywheels should offer them a bit of competition. Again, the weight may be much less. Visualize a cylinder of Kevlar for strong containment and binding, since rapid charge and discharge will produce powerful mechanical movement tendencies. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: "vortex" >Subject: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" >Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:04 -0800 > >Hybrid autos starting to get political? > >Used to be - everybody ganged up against GM, but now Toyota will soon be >king of the hill, and the lines and alliances are being redrawn. Will uncle >Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a home-grown US-produced >"better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM ? > >"Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling two >high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the annual >Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the volume to >promote rival clean-engine technologies." > >http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-6026076.html > >A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not going to please that many tree-huggers >however. > >The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of gasoline-electric >hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from Germany's >DaimlerChrysler, which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries are a better >overall solution. That stance, however, seems indefensible (OK stupid) IF >far better batteries are in the offing. > >I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others are >missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic tactical >error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. No VC investor in the >world has been as successful, or as admired in financial circles from NY to >London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner Perkins. They are simply the top dog. > >To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has >been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he >has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club event yesterday in >Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech predictions: High on >the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward" investment. He didn't >mention it by name, but I will - EEStor. More on that later. > >Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline >engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they now account >for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are claimed to be more >easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is questionable. Many of >the historical negatives of diesels - such as noise and cold-starts have >been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper - whereas here, >the opposite seems to be true in recent years. > >However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects >worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as >far away as ever to many observers, including Daimler, I disagree with that >assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent position) would pass >up the chance to use a far better battery as part of the next step in >hybrids. > >Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending that >better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a diesel in the >Prius?" > >Jones > >BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that an >even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the time >frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good battery" or "bettery" >will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel Prius, would >be a total battery powered design ... but with a small valveless Wankel as >backup. Now let me add one more detail: > >Removable. > >Yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be an easily >removable-backup if it is light enough - and only the Wankel is light >enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but Deiter, down at the garage, >can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do it in about >10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil change. > >For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added into >a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage. It could even be a >rented option - which is never used by many consumers - those who do not >need to go over 60-100 miles without a recharge. When you go on vacation, >however, you might swing by the dealer and Deiter pop in the backup Wankel, >as the electrical and fuel connections have already come as standard, on >your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low cost battery-powered vehicle >using the EEStor battery. > >Of course this scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a >lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. They >are now in the news again with this blip: >http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html > >EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a >breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination of >UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under >construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by >Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds as >senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If the >prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then this is >a huge step forward. > >According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims the >battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of >lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid per kw and >1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the anticipated unit >weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge. > >Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available. >It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good battery" >especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour. >The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate >as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based unit. >EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to produce vet >and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they prove themselves >to license the technology for volume production. Selling price would start >at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in high-volume production. - >about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound ($1+) but only a tenth as >energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit output and four times >costlier for the same power. > >But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first to >add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet. > >Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 15:54:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ENsMHd017284; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:54:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ENsCoN017168; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:54:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:54:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16404504.1137282849671.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:54:09 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Someone at CERN mentions CF in a positive light Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Will wonders never cease? See: http://blogs.quantumdiaries.org/24/2005/01/the_future_of_p.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 16:26:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0F0QR1h029055; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:26:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0F0QQ8K029041; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:26:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6551F91F-04BD-4E5B-8682-946E260BBF04@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Heisenberg traps, quark size etc. Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:24:11 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I previously mentioned the Heisenberg traps article has been updated with a computation of minimum uncertainty of quark size based on the measured temperature inside the Dy nucleus. The result was 1.10 x10^-14 m. The article has been further corrected to show there is a more reasonable conclusion than the quark radius uncertainty estimate given. Article is at: The corrected part follows. An example of a Heisenberg trap, and a powerful conduit to the zero point field, may be the nucleus itself. Stable nuclei, like stable atoms, do not radiate. However, they sustain a large kinetic energy density. Consider the following article from the AIP: "PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 443 August 16, 1999 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein NUCLEAR THERMOMETER. How hot is it inside the nucleus of a dysprosium atom (element 66, abbreviated Dy) Temperature is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a bottle. Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon interactions that take place, but it can be done. The nuclear environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that come out of heated-up atomic gases. In this way, physicists at the University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K. It can be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small parts) remain quite warm. This is the first time a nuclear temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum of gammas emitted. (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters, tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen, magne.guttormsen@fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.)" The nucleus itself may be an endless repository of kinetic energy which can be tapped if a means to repetitively and frequently kinetically interact with it can be found. Such a means might include photon stimulation, interaction with energetic electrons, or coupling and jiggling via a lattice. It seems reasonable to conjecture that the jiggle of rapidly diffusing Li, D or T nuclei might siphon off some of their nuclear heat energy via spin coupling or EM coupling with close energetic free electrons, or possibly even the lattice. Further, in electron catalyzed fusion, the nucleus itself may assist the escape of the catalysing electron via coupling to the nuclear heat, the nuclear kinetic energy. Once tapped, the nucleus can subsequently replenish its heat from the ZPF. The radius of a Dy nucleus can be estimated at R_Dy = 1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) = 1.4x10^-13 cm * (162)^(1/3) = 7.6x10^-15 m. The atomic weight of Dy is 162.5 AMU, which, at 1.66x10^-27 kg/AMU gives a mass m of 2.7x10^-25 kg. Letting gives delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 / ((8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg)) (7.6x10^-15 m)^2) = 3.6x10^-16 J = 2200 eV. At 11,600 Deg. K per eV, we have a minimum Dy temperature of 26 million Deg. K. This is way short of 6 billion degrees. Given there are 162 nucleons in Dy, that is 486 quarks. The quarks have an average mass of 5.58x10^-28 kg. Now we can aske the question, how big do the quarks have to be to account for thhe nuclear temperature? The temperature of 6 billion degrees is equivalent to 5.15x10^5 eV per quark. We have: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 /(5.15x10^5 eV) (delta x)^2 = h^2 /((5.15x10^5 eV) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg))) (delta x)^2 = 1.208 m^2 delta x = 1.10 x10^-14 m We thus have the minimum diameter of the quark as being about 10^-14 m. The proton diameter is given by some references as about 10^-15 meters. See: . If the quarks have an uncertainty in position of 10^-14 m then that fits OK with the quarks staying in the 10^-23 diameter of the Dy atom, but does not fit with some estimates of the diameter of the proton. The quarks jammed into protons may thus be even hotter than 6 billion degrees. Alternatively, we can assume the unit of mass involved in sustaining the heat is not the quarks but rather the 162 nucleons. We thus have a mean mass of (2.7x10^-25 kg)/162 = 1.667x10^-27 kg, and: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (1.667x10^-27 kg) (delta x)^2) delta x = 6.36x10^-15 m And this fits very nicely into the Dy or radius of 7.6x10^-15 m. It thus may be reasonable to expect that the nucleons are the basic unit of interaction with the zero point field. Assuming the nucleons assume a temperature depending on the confining radius, we can predict, given A the mass number, the nuclear temperature T in kelvin for large nuclei by: T = (11,600 degrees K/eV) (h^2 ) / (8 Pi^2 (A * 1.667x10^-27 kg) (1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) )^2) We can see T is proportional to A^(9/11), thus using Dy as a baseline we have a rule of thumb: T = K_temp * A^(9/11) where: K_temp = 6x10^9/(162) deg.K = 3.7 x 10^7 deg. K and thus T = (3.7 x 10^7 deg. K) * A^(9/11) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 16:43:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0F0h44r002531; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:43:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0F0h35R002518; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:43:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:43:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <83507F88-90FF-4F98-882A-26190CE9D772@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Heisenberg traps, quark size etc. (corrected) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:40:52 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't get anything right! Sorry, another correction. I previously mentioned the Heisenberg traps article has been updated with a computation of minimum uncertainty of quark size based on the measured temperature inside the Dy nucleus. The result was 1.10 x10^-14 m. The article has been further corrected to show there is a more reasonable conclusion than the quark radius uncertainty estimate given. Article is at: The corrected part follows. An example of a Heisenberg trap, and a powerful conduit to the zero point field, may be the nucleus itself. Stable nuclei, like stable atoms, do not radiate. However, they sustain a large kinetic energy density. Consider the following article from the AIP: "PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 443 August 16, 1999 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein NUCLEAR THERMOMETER. How hot is it inside the nucleus of a dysprosium atom (element 66, abbreviated Dy) Temperature is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a bottle. Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon interactions that take place, but it can be done. The nuclear environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that come out of heated-up atomic gases. In this way, physicists at the University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K. It can be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small parts) remain quite warm. This is the first time a nuclear temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum of gammas emitted. (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters, tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen, magne.guttormsen@fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.)" The nucleus itself may be an endless repository of kinetic energy which can be tapped if a means to repetitively and frequently kinetically interact with it can be found. Such a means might include photon stimulation, interaction with energetic electrons, or coupling and jiggling via a lattice. It seems reasonable to conjecture that the jiggle of rapidly diffusing Li, D or T nuclei might siphon off some of their nuclear heat energy via spin coupling or EM coupling with close energetic free electrons, or possibly even the lattice. Further, in electron catalyzed fusion, the nucleus itself may assist the escape of the catalysing electron via coupling to the nuclear heat, the nuclear kinetic energy. Once tapped, the nucleus can subsequently replenish its heat from the ZPF. The radius of a Dy nucleus can be estimated at R_Dy = 1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) = 1.4x10^-13 cm * (162)^(1/3) = 7.6x10^-15 m. The atomic weight of Dy is 162.5 AMU, which, at 1.66x10^-27 kg/AMU gives a mass m of 2.7x10^-25 kg. Letting gives delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 / ((8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg)) (7.6x10^-15 m)^2) = 3.6x10^-16 J = 2200 eV. At 11,600 Deg. K per eV, we have a minimum Dy temperature of 26 million Deg. K. This is way short of 6 billion degrees. Given there are 162 nucleons in Dy, that is 486 quarks. The quarks have an average mass of 5.58x10^-28 kg. Now we can aske the question, how big do the quarks have to be to account for thhe nuclear temperature? The temperature of 6 billion degrees is equivalent to 5.15x10^5 eV per quark. We have: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 /(5.15x10^5 eV) (delta x)^2 = h^2 /((5.15x10^5 eV) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg))) (delta x)^2 = 1.208 m^2 delta x = 1.10 x10^-14 m We thus have the minimum diameter of the quark as being about 10^-14 m. The proton diameter is given by some references as about 10^-15 meters. See: . If the quarks have an uncertainty in position of 10^-14 m then that fits OK with the quarks staying in the 10^-23 diameter of the Dy atom, but does not fit with some estimates of the diameter of the proton. The quarks jammed into protons may thus be even hotter than 6 billion degrees. Alternatively, we can assume the unit of mass involved in sustaining the heat is not the quarks but rather the 162 nucleons. We thus have a mean mass of (2.7x10^-25 kg)/162 = 1.667x10^-27 kg, and: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (1.667x10^-27 kg) (delta x)^2) delta x = 6.36x10^-15 m And this fits very nicely into the Dy or radius of 7.6x10^-15 m. It thus may be reasonable to expect that the nucleons are the basic unit of interaction with the zero point field. Assuming the nucleons assume a temperature depending on the confining radius, we can predict, given A the mass number, the nuclear temperature T in kelvin for large nuclei by: T = (11,600 degrees K/eV) (h^2 ) / (8 Pi^2 (1.667x10^-27 kg) (1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) )^2) We can see T is proportional to A^(2/9), thus using Dy as a baseline we have a rule of thumb: T = K_temp * A^(2/9) where: K_temp = 6x10^9/(162^(2/9)) deg.K = 1.93 x 10^9 deg. K and thus T = (1.93 x 10^9 deg. K) * A^(2/9) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 16:57:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0F0v4kD011566; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:57:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0F0v3kZ011548; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:57:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <18DB54EE-C836-4EA9-89C7-23DF22AB6C72@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Heisenberg traps, quark size etc. (corrected again!) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:54:48 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't get anything right! Sorry, sorry, another correction! I previously mentioned the Heisenberg traps article has been updated with a computation of minimum uncertainty of quark size based on the measured temperature inside the Dy nucleus. The result was 1.10 x10^-14 m. The article has been further corrected to show there is a more reasonable conclusion than the quark radius uncertainty estimate given. Article is at: The corrected part follows. An example of a Heisenberg trap, and a powerful conduit to the zero point field, may be the nucleus itself. Stable nuclei, like stable atoms, do not radiate. However, they sustain a large kinetic energy density. Consider the following article from the AIP: "PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 443 August 16, 1999 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein NUCLEAR THERMOMETER. How hot is it inside the nucleus of a dysprosium atom (element 66, abbreviated Dy) Temperature is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a bottle. Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon interactions that take place, but it can be done. The nuclear environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that come out of heated-up atomic gases. In this way, physicists at the University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K. It can be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small parts) remain quite warm. This is the first time a nuclear temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum of gammas emitted. (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters, tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen, magne.guttormsen@fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.)" The nucleus itself may be an endless repository of kinetic energy which can be tapped if a means to repetitively and frequently kinetically interact with it can be found. Such a means might include photon stimulation, interaction with energetic electrons, or coupling and jiggling via a lattice. It seems reasonable to conjecture that the jiggle of rapidly diffusing Li, D or T nuclei might siphon off some of their nuclear heat energy via spin coupling or EM coupling with close energetic free electrons, or possibly even the lattice. Further, in electron catalyzed fusion, the nucleus itself may assist the escape of the catalysing electron via coupling to the nuclear heat, the nuclear kinetic energy. Once tapped, the nucleus can subsequently replenish its heat from the ZPF. The radius of a Dy nucleus can be estimated at R_Dy = 1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) = 1.4x10^-13 cm * (162)^(1/3) = 7.6x10^-15 m. The atomic weight of Dy is 162.5 AMU, which, at 1.66x10^-27 kg/AMU gives a mass m of 2.7x10^-25 kg. Letting gives delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 / ((8 Pi^2 (2.7x10^-25 kg)) (7.6x10^-15 m)^2) = 3.6x10^-16 J = 2200 eV. At 11,600 Deg. K per eV, we have a minimum Dy temperature of 26 million Deg. K. This is way short of 6 billion degrees. Given there are 162 nucleons in Dy, that is 486 quarks. The quarks have an average mass of 5.58x10^-28 kg. Now we can aske the question, how big do the quarks have to be to account for thhe nuclear temperature? The temperature of 6 billion degrees is equivalent to 5.15x10^5 eV per quark. We have: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg) (delta x)^2) = h^2 /(5.15x10^5 eV) (delta x)^2 = h^2 /((5.15x10^5 eV) (8 Pi^2 (5.58x10^-28 kg))) (delta x)^2 = 1.208 m^2 delta x = 1.10 x10^-14 m We thus have the minimum diameter of the quark as being about 10^-14 m. The proton diameter is given by some references as about 10^-15 meters. See: . If the quarks have an uncertainty in position of 10^-14 m then that fits OK with the quarks staying in the 10^-23 diameter of the Dy atom, but does not fit with some estimates of the diameter of the proton. The quarks jammed into protons may thus be even hotter than 6 billion degrees. Alternatively, we can assume the unit of mass involved in sustaining the heat is not the quarks but rather the 162 nucleons. We thus have a mean mass of (2.7x10^-25 kg)/162 = 1.667x10^-27 kg, and: 5.15x10^5 eV = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 (1.667x10^-27 kg) (delta x)^2) delta x = 6.36x10^-15 m And this fits very nicely into the Dy or radius of 7.6x10^-15 m. It thus may be reasonable to expect that the nucleons are the basic unit of interaction with the zero point field. Assuming the nucleons assume a temperature depending on the confining radius, we can predict, given A the mass number, the nuclear temperature T in kelvin for large nuclei by: T = (11,600 degrees K/eV) (h^2 ) / (8 Pi^2 (1.667x10^-27 kg) (1.4x10^-13 cm * A^(1/3) )^2) We can see T is proportional to A^(3/2), thus using Dy as a baseline we have a rule of thumb: T = K_temp * A^(3/2) where: K_temp = 6x10^9/(162^(3/2)) deg.K = 2.91 x 10^6 deg. K and thus T = (2.91 x 10^6 deg. K) * A^(3/2) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 14 17:27:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0F1Qefj025548; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:26:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0F1Qchl025519; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:26:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c61972$b548c890$6e027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:26:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61940.6A1D3C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.1 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <6mpnrD.A.nOG.NTayDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61940.6A1D3C20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61940.6A1D3C20" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61940.6A1D3C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. > Why do liquids, for instance, NOT have the minimum b-a tensile=20 > strength? ... a possible analogy: the same reason that a sieve=20 > swung through air has less resistance than a pot of the same size? Grimer wrote.. >You must be psychic Jones cos I have just realised that a whole hierarchy of nets or sieves is the way to model the higher powers=20 found in stuff like the three water vapours. When one compresses a region of space, it's like squeezing the sea with a net. One only catches fish bigger than the mesh size. As one reduces the mesh size smaller and smaller creatures are=20 captured and the bulk modulus increases drastically. If one had=20 a completely impermeable piston and cylinder then space would be incompressible. A case of the proverbial irresistible force meeting the immovable object. These hierarchies of substances are independent of each other and thus effectively constitute the=20 metrics of independent spaces in much the same way as a series off overlaid graph papers of different colours and different gradations constitute a series of independent finite spaces. The isothermal, adiabatic compressions provide a chink in the=20 armour and the VP laws should get us well on the road. The=20 very high powers of the clay water system should reveal how asymmetry behaves. Once people cotton on to the hierarchical techniques of looking for discontinuities to use as zeros for the powers, they will start turning up everywhere. The beauty of a hierarchical system is that, like a mathematical series, once one can master the general term, one has mastered them all. Frank and Jones.. You two give me pause. Picture a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not = cylindrical) filled with water. Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond = shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one and 1/2 foot = below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 = rpm. A vortex " rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. = The rotating member draws the flow "toward" the member ( opposite of the = action of a propeller that thrusts away). The rope is a near perfect = cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different = from the "rope' produced at speeds below 4000 rpm which is similar to a = tornado shape that meanders and produces an occasional "strike" against = the rotatiing member. We have watched the near perfect 'cylinder" shed vortices inside the = cube shaped tank. We expected random vortices to shed. We were surprised = to produce a horizontal vortex independent from the center cylinder. = This horizontal vortex has its top cone facing the northwest quadrant of = the tank wall parallel with the north wall. It remains fairly consistent = in the shape of a classic vortex. The interesting part is that it must = receive its energy from the center cylinder but there is no visible = connection. The rest of the water in the tank is violently agitated with = the top water surface boiling from the massive quanity of air inducted = through the mixing head. I have been spending time trying to wrap my = mind around your comment... "compressions provide a chink in the armor". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61940.6A1D3C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

> Why do liquids, for instance, NOT have the minimum b-a tensile =
>=20 strength? ... a possible analogy: the same reason that a sieve
> = swung=20 through air has less resistance than a pot of the same size?


Grimer wrote..

>You must be psychic Jones cos I have just realised that a=20 whole
hierarchy of nets or sieves is the way to model the higher = powers=20
found in stuff like the three water vapours.

When one = compresses a=20 region of space, it's like squeezing the
sea with a net. One only = catches=20 fish bigger than the mesh size.
As one reduces the mesh size smaller = and=20 smaller creatures are
captured and the bulk modulus increases = drastically.=20 If one had
a completely impermeable piston and cylinder then space=20 would
be incompressible. A case of the proverbial irresistible=20 force
meeting the immovable object. These hierarchies of substances=20 are
independent of each other and thus effectively constitute the =
metrics=20 of independent spaces in much the same way as a series
off overlaid = graph=20 papers of different colours and different
gradations constitute a = series of=20 independent finite spaces.

The isothermal, adiabatic compressions = provide=20 a chink in the
armour and the VP laws should get us well on the = road. The=20
very high powers of the clay water system should reveal = how
asymmetry=20 behaves. Once people cotton on to the hierarchical
techniques of = looking for=20 discontinuities to use as zeros for
the powers, they will start = turning up=20 everywhere. The beauty of
a hierarchical system is that, like a = mathematical=20 series, once
one can master the general term, one has mastered them = all.

Frank and Jones..

You two give me pause. Picture a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not = cylindrical) filled with water. Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond = shaped=20 high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one and 1/2 foot below = surface.=20 Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A  = vortex "=20 rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating = member draws=20 the flow "toward" the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller = that=20 thrusts away).  The rope is a near perfect cylinder like the eye of = a=20 hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at = speeds=20 below 4000 rpm which is similar to a  tornado shape that meanders = and=20 produces an occasional "strike" against the rotatiing member.

 We have watched the near perfect 'cylinder" shed vortices = inside=20 the cube shaped tank. We expected random vortices to shed. We were=20 surprised  to produce a horizontal vortex independent = from the=20 center cylinder. This horizontal vortex has its top cone facing the = northwest=20 quadrant of the tank wall parallel with the north wall. It remains = fairly=20 consistent in the shape of a classic vortex. The interesting part is = that it=20 must receive its energy from the center cylinder but there is no visible = connection. The rest of the water in the tank is violently agitated with = the top=20 water surface boiling from the massive quanity of air inducted through = the=20 mixing head. I have been spending time trying to wrap my mind around = your=20 comment... "compressions provide a chink in the armor".

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C61940.6A1D3C20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61940.6A1D3C20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c61972$b4b191a0$6e027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C61940.6A1D3C20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 03:03:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FB3Eng031264; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:03:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FB3C87031252; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:03:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qpOqFZTeqbghqnFykVaq7BNLMUJefE27Vc8gSDcROrk+k+wtSiAql9YoLNHa0Rwk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101511259310@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:02:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940082e1c20cfa5ac65e51687bc29d8b05b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.209 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard Macaulay wrote: > Frank and Jones. > You two give me pause. Picture a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one > and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A vortex " > rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away). The rope is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > below 4000 rpm which is similar to a tornado shape that meanders and produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member. Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and the Beta Ether, Richard? How else do you explain it? http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html "Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) " "Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise jar in your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water faucet as you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. The water that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward that area by the water that is not moving which has greater pressure." Food for thought. No? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Richard Macaulay wrote:

> Frank and Jones.

> You two give me pause. Picture  a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one > and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A  vortex " > rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away).  The rope is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > below 4000 rpm which is similar to a  tornado shape that meanders and produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member.

Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and the Beta Ether, Richard?

How else do you explain it?

http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html

"Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) "

"Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise jar in your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water faucet as you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. The water that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward that area by the water that is not moving which has greater pressure."

Food for thought. No?

Fred

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 04:13:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FCCd0X025826; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:12:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FCCaL6025804; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:12:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:12:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <21C2C29A-D211-416F-8860-56C7A63FDD8C@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Heisenberg traps, quark size etc. (corrected again!) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:10:16 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well I'm up to my typical stumbling and bumbling around. More corrections. I'll just make fixes to the pdf as I find them, and stop posting them. Article is at: Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 04:31:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FCUvNG004769; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:30:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FCUtcF004737; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:30:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:30:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060115123034822.C8BBBC400085@mwinf3216.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060115123036.00a25f88@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:30:36 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:48 am 14/01/2006 -0700, Fred wrote: > > Frank Grimer wrote: > >> >> The Beta-atmosphere pressure inside materials >> is many Alpha-atmospheres lower than >> it is outside materials in allegedly empty space. >> >As much as disagreement disagrees with me, Frank. :-) > >Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection and the Critical Angle >sin theta Critical = (e2/e1)^1/2 requires that the permittivity (e1) >of the energy wave (particle) be greater than that of the ether. > >IOW, the "particle" sets up it's own (circular) boundary conditions. > >Tan 0.41810964 deg = Alpha= 0.007297290 > >http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/ntnujava/light/flashLight.html > >Fred "Neither do they put new wine into old bottles. Otherwise the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish. But new wine they put into new bottles: and both are preserved." Cheers, 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 04:34:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FCYNpC006981; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:34:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FCYKBW006943; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:34:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HNcp1UDkmyrn4RxeJmqZm/VbwDmGa3DM9vt7/lXjdAVgUrrN94AyFZfC9itH7TcE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101512349945@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:34:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94054d0753dd46c9b5ef9a6923c93eea619350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Don't feel left out , Richard, you are dealing with the most ADHD, " I have my own agenda" group on the Internet. :-) I tried for a week to get feedback on a means for getting vertical lift using a blower and an airfoil rather than a "rotating wing".. Bernoulli's Principle suggests that all I need is an 8 foot diameter disk with a vertical axis squirrel-cage blower at the center on top of it with some deflector plates for torque cancelation. The lower pressure created due to the high velocity radial flow air might give ~ 200 lbs lift if the pressure on top of the disk drops by as much as 0.036 PSI (~3/4 inch water column). Frank G can apply this General Relativity-Beta Ether Bernoulli Principle to get "All ahead Warp 10 Scotty" on his Dr. Who phone booth spacecraft. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/15/2006 4:03:16 AM Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Richard Macaulay wrote: > Frank and Jones. > You two give me pause. Picture a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one > and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A vortex " > rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away). The rope is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > below 4000 rpm which is similar to a tornado shape that meanders and produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member. Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and the Beta Ether, Richard? How else do you explain it? http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html "Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) " "Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise jar in your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water faucet as you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. The water that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward that area by the water that is not moving which has greater pressure." Food for thought. No? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Don't  feel left out , Richard, you are dealing with the most ADHD,
" I have my own agenda" group on the Internet.  :-)
 
I tried for a week to get feedback on a means for getting vertical lift
using a blower and an airfoil rather than a "rotating wing"..
Bernoulli's Principle suggests that all I need is an 8 foot diameter
disk with a vertical axis squirrel-cage blower at the center on top of it with some
deflector plates for torque cancelation. The lower pressure created
due to the high velocity radial flow air might give ~ 200 lbs lift if the pressure
on top of the disk drops by as much as 0.036 PSI (~3/4 inch water column).
 
Frank G can apply this General Relativity-Beta Ether Bernoulli Principle
to  get "All ahead Warp 10 Scotty" on his Dr. Who phone booth spacecraft.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/15/2006 4:03:16 AM
Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Richard Macaulay wrote:

> Frank and Jones.

> You two give me pause. Picture  a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one > and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A  vortex " > rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away).  The rope is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > below 4000 rpm which is similar to a  tornado shape that meanders and produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member.

Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and the Beta Ether, Richard?

How else do you explain it?

http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html

"Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) "

"Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise jar in your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water faucet as you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. The water that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward that area by the water that is not moving which has greater pressure."

Food for thought. No?

Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 05:11:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FDBF4s019625; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:11:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FDBD2s019604; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:11:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:11:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c63231$44a15d50$0401a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:10:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C63231.4205A3D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C63231.4205A3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but = there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I = consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I = had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own = bootstraps"... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C63231.4205A3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Hey Fred, I saw your = hovercraft idea and=20 thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex = these=20 days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone = else=20 follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift = oneself=20 up by one's own bootstraps"...
 
 
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C63231.4205A3D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 05:25:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FDP5sW024708; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:25:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FDP411024682; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tfyJXmaCYU9HBx4Y/5Tkb+eeezkhbcnjqom7ZJ3yfx3AjauLWc7Q9r2zYKKI6kgK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061015132451972@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re:Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:24:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fe833499d9aff0960849b5d1e8843332350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.166 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nick. The Boeing 747 does a great job of "bootstrapping" lift from the pressure drop caused by higher velocity airflow over the top of the wing. No? Fred http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Palmer To: Vortex-L Sent: 1/15/2006 6:11:16 AM Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nick.
 
The Boeing 747 does a great job of "bootstrapping" lift from
the pressure drop caused by higher velocity airflow over
the top of the wing. No?
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/15/2006 6:11:16 AM
Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent
 

Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"...
 
 
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 06:16:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FEG39O009646; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:16:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FEG1N3009599; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:16:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:16:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NntHoX9tPorukiAJxx0yuCQolJGM0gRuaSHsst0EK79Fr+B19S/qP9ebCIUpEZbr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061015141551406@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:15:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a7f073fbda2f5151cfe1888986bb7f4f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.20 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Einstein's General Relativity (GR) adage "matter warps space" establishes his concept of the nature of Gravity. OTOH, Bernoulli's Principle suggests that space (The Ether) pushes matter toward a "lower pressure" area. Expanding Universe speeding up? Higher Light Speed between Galaxies? Harvard's Mossbauer Effect Tower experiment tends to support this? http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/gratim.html#c2 How far out, Frank? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Einstein's General Relativity (GR) adage "matter warps space"
establishes his concept of the nature of Gravity.
OTOH, Bernoulli's Principle suggests that space (The Ether) pushes
matter toward a "lower pressure" area.
 
Expanding Universe speeding up?
 
Higher Light Speed between Galaxies?
 
Harvard's Mossbauer Effect Tower experiment tends to support this?
 
 
How far out, Frank?
 
Fred
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 07:58:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FFwRna020824; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:58:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FFwPG3020807; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JJDGilpbJPTdYDxp1uJtY5zbSUphF8HAQVnnFZv0q2ttfh2mD1CnVFyPTr/t+Vk9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101515588627@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re:Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:58:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bb1dab6faccb72cb4433809e3bb15e29350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.105 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Unsteady aerodynamic force generation by a model fruit fly wing in flapping motion" http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/205/1/55 Even if it's in your soup? :-) Fred Nick. The Boeing 747 does a great job of "bootstrapping" lift from the pressure drop caused by higher velocity airflow over the top of the wing. No? Fred http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Palmer To: Vortex-L Sent: 1/15/2006 6:11:16 AM Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
"Unsteady aerodynamic force generation by a model fruit fly wing in flapping motion"
 
 
Even if it's in your soup?  :-)
 
Fred
 

Nick.
 
The Boeing 747 does a great job of "bootstrapping" lift from
the pressure drop caused by higher velocity airflow over
the top of the wing. No?
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/15/2006 6:11:16 AM
Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent
 

Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"...
 
 
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 08:33:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FGU2Od004599; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:32:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FGK6tp032468; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:20:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:20:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:19:44 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E806A1830D68-16C0-A593@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.photonics.com/todaysheadlines/article.asp?id=6070 IR Solar Cell Record Set EWING, New Jersey, Jan. 12, 2006 -- Global Photonic Energy Corp. (GPEC), a developer of organic photovoltaic technology for high-power solar cells, announced that its research partners at Princeton University and the University of Southern California have achieved a record in an organic solar cell that is responsive to light in the near-infrared range of the solar spectrum. The achievement is the highest level of conversion performance yet achieved for an organic solar cell in the IR portion of the solar spectrum, GPEC said. GPEC sponsors research by Professor Stephen R. Forrest at Princeton and Professor Mark E. Thompson at the University of Southern California. They reported their results in a recent issue of Applied Physics Letters. Forrest's research team has focused on organic "small-molecule" devices that are assembled literally a molecule at a time in highly efficient nanostructures. These devices have layers or structural elements that can be extremely small -- only half a billionth of a meter thick -- and can be applied to low-cost, flexible plastic surfaces. "This latest device demonstrates that significant power can be harvested from the IR and near-IR portion of the solar spectrum," said Forrest. "In fact, this novel approach has the potential to double the power output of organic solar devices with power harvested from the near-IR and IR portion of the solar spectrum. "With this approach, we are well on our way to power levels exceeding 100 watts per meter," he said. Near-infrared (NIR) radiation is invisible to the human eye. Many night-vision devices operate by sensing IR light emitted by warm objects. Under only NIR radiation, the Princeton solar cell would appear to be generating power in the dark, since the human eye is only sensitive to visible light. Traditionally, photovoltaic, or solar, cells have been constructed of an inorganic semiconductor like silicon. Efficient silicon-based devices, especially those with large surface areas, are difficult and expensive to produce. Although the cost of silicon solar cells has dropped dramatically since the 1950s, further reductions and new capabilities are needed for additional market penetration and broader adoption, GPEC said. Recent efforts have focused on the use of "organic" materials. Organic semiconductors contain carbon and are capable of achieving ultralow-cost solar power generation that is competitive with traditional fossil-fuel sources. Organic materials have the potential to achieve ultralow cost production costs and high-power output, GMAC said. They can be applied to virtually any surface using a method akin to spray painting and can also be used in flexible applications. One challenge for organic solar cells has been the efficient capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is comprised of photons (particles of light) that are delivered across a spectrum that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, the visible spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The amount of incoming photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is about 4, 5 and 45 percent, respectively. The photons absorbed by a solar cell directly impacts the power output. The best organic solar cells absorb and convert only about a third of the total available light utilizing primarily the visible portion of the spectrum. For more information, visit: www.globalphotonic.com ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 09:06:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FH6fvS020588; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:06:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FH6dMZ020576; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:06:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:06:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060115170625390.5F311940008C@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060115170627.00e3b05c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:06:27 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: <9ELweC.A.cBF.fEoyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:34 am 15/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Frank G can apply this General Relativity-Beta Ether Bernoulli Principle >to get "All ahead Warp 10 Scotty" on his Dr. Who phone booth spacecraft. :-) > >Fred Verrry droll, Fred 8-) Talking of Scotty, did you know my birthday is the same day of the year as the Vulcan Science Office, Mr Spock. Quite a coincidence seeing that I was a Scientific Officer on the BR Station and don't have earlobes. 8-) No if my birthday had been on the same year as well, and my ears had been pointy, and Spock had been a Vortexian instead of a Vulcan - then that really would have been a coincidence, eh! Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 10:21:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FILJMf021154; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:21:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FILHk0021115; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:21:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:21:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.40] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Park in the Times - Irony Needs Letters to the Editor Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:21:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2006 18:21:03.0586 (UTC) FILETIME=[71A8FC20:01C61A00] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Today's N.Y. Times features an excellent OpEd piece by Robert Park, entitled Scorched Earth. It begs for a few excellent Letters in response, by those who can point out the irony of his attacks on LENR, ZPE, and other approaches to new science that might help alleviate the problem. Jed, Jones, please have at it! Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 12:44:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FKiBJp004556; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:44:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FKi8Jp004533; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:44:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GiTh/pl4r5Hs20nJw++vnDhCUNwqZbc61yvi2MJKu0ostZzaupnj3VgNNg0AcA4YmMjoluUqBqWlqCqcmAKkCjhxPfpGYi6MQuPc+2+E8uTidHrDvwVS+djB/4fvtaTpZxxuUkMf+EFygVCcgwFuEhN+4vVppIVgVo5UPuUDbeA= ; Message-ID: <20060115204353.99179.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001801c63231$44a15d50$0401a8c0@nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to Bill B's Vortex lift theory, you might get better results by tipping the outer edge of your disk downwards (like an inverted pie plate)... --- Nick Palmer wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nick Palmer > To: fjsparber@earthlink.net > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM > Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it > was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on > Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to > the file marked "I hope someone else follows this > up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to > "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"... > > > > Nick Palmer Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 13:14:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FLDQ4g018118; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:13:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FLDF9t018055; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:13:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:13:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mE5jx7lfRBKj8oapfh8nlvEpf4WISIrYCcgNHvQURmko39uQ214D0p0snJrWlFeT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006101521125817@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:12:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407c5c98d27cc61aeef09efb3d1da88505350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.196 Resent-Message-ID: <0nKCID.A.8ZE.orryDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yep. I've been looking at an inverted 8 ft x 1 ft inverted stock tank: http://www.hutchison-inc.com/html/lvst_equ/tanks/steel.php Room for chain saw motor, computerized remote control, GPS, and TV camera and cell phone link to the office under there. Makes a flying pack-mule ala "flying saucer" out of it. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Merlyn > To: > Date: 1/15/2006 1:44:12 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > According to Bill B's Vortex lift theory, you might > get better results by tipping the outer edge of your > disk downwards (like an inverted pie plate)... > > --- Nick Palmer wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Nick Palmer > > To: fjsparber@earthlink.net > > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM > > Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > > > Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it > > was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on > > Vortex these days and I am afraid I consigned it to > > the file marked "I hope someone else follows this > > up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to > > "lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps"... > > > > > > > > Nick Palmer > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 14:33:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0FMXIpG017937; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:33:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0FMXG5t017905; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:33:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:33:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E806A1830D68-16C0-A593@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E806A1830D68-16C0-A593@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:31:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 15, 2006, at 7:19 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > http://www.photonics.com/todaysheadlines/article.asp?id=6070 > > > "With this approach, we are well on our way to power levels > exceeding 100 watts per meter," he said. Pretty amazing, though I have to wonder what "well on our way" means. > > One challenge for organic solar cells has been the efficient > capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is comprised of > photons (particles of light) that are delivered across a spectrum > that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, the visible > spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange > and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The amount of incoming > photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is about 4, 5 and > 45 percent, respectively. Looks like a typo above. Doesn't add up to 100 percent. Anyway, more important than the number of photons is the amount of *energy* (per area) incoming in the various bands. The visible spectrum is commonly (i.e. for most people) 400 to 700 nm. See: Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of The CRC Handbook. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 16:14:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G0DhT0031342; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:13:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G0DeT9031317; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:13:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:13:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002001c61a31$b0089530$89027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Hovercraft, cattle troughs, UMES and beyond Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:13:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C619FF.64C49EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <3c71W.A.OpH.0UuyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C619FF.64C49EC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C619FF.64C49EC0" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C619FF.64C49EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Nick Palmer wrote.. Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting but = there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I = consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I = had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own = bootstraps"... Mark Goldes wrote.. Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three years, = can=20 be developed into UMES. These are Superconducting Magnetic Energy = Storage=20 devices made with polymer, ambient temperature, Ultraconductors. A UMES should store twice what an equivalent flywheel can store, without = moving parts. Obviously, it will be very much lighter. Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and difficulty accepting = a=20 very rapid charge, such as would be best for regenerative braking, UMES=20 units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those characteristics. Ultracapacitors are falling in price. See the latest Maxwell units. =20 Electron flywheels should offer them a bit of competition. Again, the=20 weight may be much less. Visualize a cylinder of Kevlar for strong=20 containment and binding, since rapid charge and discharge will produce=20 powerful mechanical movement tendencies. Mark I mentioned in the past about a one man heliocopter design study back in = the early 1950's. Fit inside a suitcase. Roll up blades similar to old = fashion venetian blind in appearance but made with materials that harden = by centripetal force( post tension). Two opposing rotation rotor = configuration using stepless torgue proportioning powered by a tiny = ultrahigh speed flywheel. Computer controlled fly-fi. Range 50 miles = before rewind of flywheel. Not one of the components were available in = the 1950's. By year 2000, every component was available except the tiny = flywheel. Mark Goldes reports above on UMES. The final block just fell = into place. Why the interest? Read about the technology in the bible. The prophet = saw them.. appeared to be similar to huge grasshoppers. (Ever notice a = plexiglas face shield on a helmet). They hovered, they were able to rise = up to high windows. they did not jostle one another.. hmmm! Meanwhile back in New Mexico, west of the Pecos.. a reported sighting = of a strange object with the appearance of a cattle water trough = complete with cell phone etc..Call Fred and ask if this is one more of = the Los Alamos gadgets they love to play with. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C619FF.64C49EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Nick Palmer wrote..
Hey Fred, I saw your = hovercraft idea and=20 thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex = these=20 days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone = else=20 follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift = oneself=20 up by one's own bootstraps"...
 
Mark Goldes wrote..

Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three = years, can=20
be developed into UMES.  These are Superconducting Magnetic = Energy=20 Storage
devices made with polymer, ambient temperature,=20 Ultraconductors.

A UMES should store twice what an equivalent = flywheel=20 can store, without
moving parts.  Obviously, it will be very = much=20 lighter.

Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and = difficulty=20 accepting a
very rapid charge, such as would be best for = regenerative=20 braking, UMES
units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those=20 characteristics.

Ultracapacitors are falling in price.  See = the=20 latest Maxwell units. 
Electron flywheels should offer them a = bit of=20 competition.  Again, the
weight may be much less.  = Visualize a=20 cylinder of Kevlar for strong
containment and binding, since rapid = charge=20 and discharge will produce
powerful mechanical movement=20 tendencies.

Mark

I mentioned in the past about a one man heliocopter design study back = in the=20 early 1950's. Fit inside a suitcase. Roll up blades similar to old = fashion=20 venetian blind in appearance but made with materials that harden by = centripetal force( post tension). Two opposing rotation rotor = configuration=20 using stepless torgue proportioning  powered by a tiny ultrahigh = speed=20 flywheel. Computer controlled fly-fi. Range 50 miles before rewind of = flywheel.=20 Not one of the components were available in the 1950's. By year 2000, = every=20 component was available except the tiny flywheel. Mark Goldes reports=20 above  on UMES. The final block just fell into place.

Why the interest? Read about the technology in the bible. The prophet = saw=20 them..  appeared to be similar to huge grasshoppers. (Ever notice a = plexiglas face shield on a helmet). They hovered, they were able = to rise up=20 to high windows. they did not jostle one another.. hmmm!

 Meanwhile back in New Mexico, west of the Pecos.. a reported = sighting=20 of a strange object with the appearance of a cattle water trough = complete with=20 cell phone etc..Call Fred and ask if this is one more of the Los Alamos = gadgets=20 they love to play with.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C619FF.64C49EC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C619FF.64C49EC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c61a31$af5c0180$89027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C619FF.64C49EC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 16:36:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G0ZjvK009185; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:35:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G0ZhJW009140; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:35:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:35:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:35:25 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E84BE04ED805-19A8-15C52@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E806A1830D68-16C0-A593@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner Pretty amazing, though I have to wonder what "well on our way" means. <><><><><><><> (Anecdote warning!) Recently, our engineering company started a program to encourage young women to enter engineering school. Volunteers were assigned a high school senior girl who was considering engineering (we're all over 50 so the ladies are relatively safe). My candidate had taken HS calculus and scored 100+. When I enquired which dicipline she was considering, she responded that Ga Tech had recently opened a new nanotechnology facility and it was her goal to be a NanE. She said no other technology would touch so many different fields. I told her that those were the same reasons I studied EE over 30 years ago. My, how things have changed but stayed the same! ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 16:49:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G0n0D0015034; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G0mwR4015018; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:48:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c61a32$6ef736e0$89027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <001801c63231$44a15d50$0401a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:18:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C61A00.23BDC7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_60_70, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C61A00.23BDC7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nick, Schauberger described the method of lift in his writings and supposedly = made such device. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: Vortex-L=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Fw: Dash Files for LENR Patent ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Hey Fred, I saw your hovercraft idea and thought it was interesting = but there is a lot of traffic on Vortex these days and I am afraid I = consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone else follows this up". I = had a vague idea that it may be trying to "lift oneself up by one's own = bootstraps"... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C61A00.23BDC7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nick,
Schauberger described the method of = lift  in=20 his writings and supposedly made such  device.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, = 2006 7:10=20 AM
Subject: Fw: Dash Files for = LENR=20 Patent

 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Hey Fred, I saw your = hovercraft idea and=20 thought it was interesting but there is a lot of traffic on = Vortex these=20 days and I am afraid I consigned it to the file marked "I hope someone = else=20 follows this up". I had a vague idea that it may be trying to = "lift=20 oneself up by one's own bootstraps"...
 
 
 
Nick = Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C61A00.23BDC7C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 16:49:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G0nNct015277; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G0nM5b015252; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c61a36$abb2b650$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Hydrino ice....? Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Seven years after launch, NASA's "Stardust" space capsule returned Sunday with a bit of comet debris (hopefully). At least the parachute opened this time, already giving Stardust more success than its predecessor - the "Genesis" solar wind mission last year, which crashed in Utah after its chute failed to open. Dammit. I really wanted to know if there are hydrini in solar wind or not... And yes, there is the slight chance... that IF (many big 'ifs ' to follow) the hydrino state is real, and IF it is stable over millennia, and IF Mills is correct on the production of Hy in the solar corona, and IF they accumulate in the Oort cloud, and IF the boiling point of hydrinos is as high as it could be or IF there is some binding with other particles or hydrides, etc.... then... ?? Most observers, including me, will normally scoff at this many linked -IFs ... after all, why would not the same putative evidence for Hy or Dy have already turned up in the 800 pounds of lunar rocks and soil which was brought back to Texas... doubtful that hydrinos have been ruled out, since few would ever have thought to test for them. Hey... there was mysterious "orange soil" returned... and other oddities, many which never made the news (reportedly) and it is very doubtful that the final chapter has been written on the Apollo discoveries. BTW, there is still a big mystery about the choice of the landing site for Apollo 17. Most of the geologic samples returned from these lunar surface exploration missions (1969-1972) are physically preserved in a special facility at the Johnson Space Center in Houston (unless budget cuts have closed it). Hmmm... wonder if R. Mills has ever had a look at that "orange soil" ? BTW..we do know that moon rocks contain an incredibly large proportion of 3He *in the rock* which has always been assumed to have a solar origin... being impregnated in the rock by the high speed - but think about that for a minute. Why so much 3He and so little 4He, H and D ??? And now also consider that lunar basalts contain large amounts of the element titanium. Incredibly large amounts by earthly standards. Hey, putting two and two together (or should it be Hy + Dy) and in light of what we suspect about CF in the metal lattice ... < big G> perhaps that is why there is so much 3He in these same rocks. How does Lunar LENR sound? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 17:45:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G1iwbK005269; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:45:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G1itPV005226; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:44:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:44:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:44:39 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E8558CBE39D5-19A8-15DE3@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Chinese Technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You may have seen them on TV. Flashlights which all you do is shake and they provide illumination for quite a while. They're going for $19.95 on those "pocket fisherman channels". Today, I visited the local Wumart, a dollar store owned by a Chinese family. I bought one of these flashlights for $2.99. They were marked down from $4.99. Being who I am, I took it apart. It consists of a neodymium magnet, cylindrical shaped, nickel plated, roughly 1/2 dia x 3/4 inch long. When shook, the magnet passes through a copper solenoid with several hundred turns of roughly 28 AWG Cu wire. The coil feeds a supercap through a bridge rectifier which then feeds a white LED through an on/off switch. I shook it a while and it has been sitting here illuminating my office for almost 1/2 hour. Geeze, the best price I found for this magnet on the web was almost $2.50. Pity I don't have a small creek on my property! ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 18:04:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G242uT012295; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:04:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G23wAr012266; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:03:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:03:39 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E85833F07467-F34-14213@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E8558CBE39D5-19A8-15DE3@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E8558CBE39D5-19A8-15DE3@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Chinese Technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1M-3LC.A.i_C.N8vyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d When shook, the magnet passes through a copper solenoid with several hundred turns of roughly 28 AWG Cu wire. Substitute "coil" for "solenoid". ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 15 20:48:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G4lCFM012749; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:47:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G4l8e1012716; Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:47:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:47:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:45:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR In-reply-to: <8C7E84BE04ED805-19A8-15C52@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2nJVq.A.jGD.KVyyDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Canada we now have more women graduating from med school than men. Harry hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner > > Pretty amazing, though I have to wonder what "well on our way" means. > > <><><><><><><> > > (Anecdote warning!) > > Recently, our engineering company started a program to encourage young > women to enter engineering school. Volunteers were assigned a high > school senior girl who was considering engineering (we're all over 50 > so the ladies are relatively safe). My candidate had taken HS calculus > and scored 100+. When I enquired which dicipline she was considering, > she responded that Ga Tech had recently opened a new nanotechnology > facility and it was her goal to be a NanE. She said no other > technology would touch so many different fields. I told her that those > were the same reasons I studied EE over 30 years ago. > > My, how things have changed but stayed the same! > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 00:59:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0G8x9G2027406; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:59:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0G8x73B027393; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:59:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:59:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:59:57 -0600 To: Vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: good dangerous ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; Someone posted the Edge.org's list of dangerous ideas. Some of them are, IMHO, stupid; truth is relative, life began spontaneously, and music and be good and discordant at the same time. There is no god, no soul, science is a replacement for god. However, I came across some very interesting ideas too. Matt Ridley, science writer, has the idea that limiting government helps everyone, an idea which I second. Paul Steinhard, Albert Einstein Professor of Science, Princeton. Suggests that the Cosmological Constant has changed over time. I found this interesting because the Rabbis have come to similar conclusions. Frank Tipler, who teaches physics at Tulane University, believes that the Standard Model of particle physics says that energies in excess of 1 trillion electron volts are required in order to convert matter into anti-matter. He continues by saying that he believes that conventional physical model is wrong about this at the "consistency of quantum field theory requires that is should be possible to convert up to 100 KG of ordinary matter into pure energy. The device that would do this would fit inside the trunk of a car." Jeremy Bernstein, professor of physics at Stevens Institute of Technology, says that the idea that we can safely store plutonium pits indefinately is dangerous, Well, I wouldn't argue with that idea. I'm wondering why the Pu is alloyed with gallium, Dr. Bernstien says that nobody knows, I find this difficult to believe, IMHO, nothing happens by chance. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 02:29:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GAT0GV028185; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:29:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GASwrb028158; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:28:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:28:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kH/uNMkIHNwgvwUJ2KO5PH2W9qjnSo4/dG51Hjxl0QQPIN670FyVlbTR1Ew95mDf; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061116102847663@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:28:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d1442ea5d93e06c3c2fc105ea9022fc2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.112 Resent-Message-ID: <1XjDDC.A.63G.pV3yDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here you go, Frank. The lift goes at about air speed to the ~ 2.5 power (double air speed equal 3 times the lift). Blower power vs RPM? http://www.millerprofarm.com/millerblowers.html Good for feeding the cat too. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Here you go, Frank. 
 
The lift goes at about air speed to the ~ 2.5 power (double air speed equal
3 times the lift). Blower power vs RPM?
 
 
Good for feeding the cat too. 
 
Fred    
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="millerblowers.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: millerblowers.url Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="millerblowers.url" W0ludGVybmV0U2hvcnRjdXRdDQpVUkw9aHR0cDovL3d3dy5taWxsZXJwcm9mYXJtLmNvbS9taWxs ZXJibG93ZXJzLmh0bWwNCk1vZGlmaWVkPTUwODVFOEFDODUxQUM2MDFDRg0K ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 03:50:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GBoAiq028608; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:50:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GBo98m028602; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:50:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jq/X0O6kRSpbffs7s1mWTanccxVKZ15eSi0vYrCE53k4fB2i/abvEKYxZ8LEDH6/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006111611500808@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Speaking of Silage Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:50:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d1ff168f84c84826f8b3ea93baf5d60a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.221 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jed can't convince me that the energy for producing ethanol (2.5 gal/bushel) exceeds the energy available from corn stover for tillage, fertilizing-planting, cultivation, harvesting, transport, and distillation. Not to mention the "distiller's grains" byproducts. http://www.nass.usda.gov/la/Ff011805.txt Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jed can't convince me that the energy for producing ethanol
(2.5 gal/bushel) exceeds the energy available from corn stover
for tillage, fertilizing-planting, cultivation, harvesting, transport, and distillation.
Not to mention the "distiller's grains" byproducts.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 04:35:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GCZaGj015713; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:35:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GCFjvN007059; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:15:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:15:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aj4aVuAmU3MpTAnQT0AWQ6w6OPNcPZLUR9NcqMnTH7fXy/d3FbuF2xqUinGre942; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061116121535245@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Speaking of Silage Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 05:15:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406f319f7e7acac5018c8c3d952949d890350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A Chicken Sh_t outfit in North Carolina provides fertilizer? http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-05/ "Except for nitrogen, the availability of most nutrients in poultry manures is fairly consistent. Nitrogen can occur in several forms, each of which can be lost when subjected to different management or environmental conditions." "Nitrogen in poultry wastes comes from uric acid, ammonia salts, and organic (fecal) matter. The predominant form is uric acid, which readily transforms to ammonia (NH3), a gaseous form of nitrogen that can evaporate if not mixed into the soil. When it is thoroughly mixed, the ammonia changes to ammonium (NH4+), which can be temporarily held on clay particles and organic matter. Thus, soil mixing can reduce nitrogen losses and increase the amount available to plants." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/16/2006 4:50:12 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of Silage Jed can't convince me that the energy for producing ethanol (2.5 gal/bushel) exceeds the energy available from corn stover for tillage, fertilizing-planting, cultivation, harvesting, transport, and distillation. Not to mention the "distiller's grains" byproducts. http://www.nass.usda.gov/la/Ff011805.txt Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A Chicken Sh_t  outfit in North Carolina provides fertilizer?
 

"Except for nitrogen, the availability of most nutrients in poultry manures is fairly consistent. Nitrogen can occur in several forms, each of which can be lost when subjected to different management or environmental conditions."

"Nitrogen in poultry wastes comes from uric acid, ammonia salts, and organic (fecal) matter. The predominant form is uric acid, which readily transforms to ammonia (NH3), a gaseous form of nitrogen that can evaporate if not mixed into the soil. When it is thoroughly mixed, the ammonia changes to ammonium (NH4+), which can be temporarily held on clay particles and organic matter. Thus, soil mixing can reduce nitrogen losses and increase the amount available to plants."

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/16/2006 4:50:12 AM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Silage

Jed can't convince me that the energy for producing ethanol
(2.5 gal/bushel) exceeds the energy available from corn stover
for tillage, fertilizing-planting, cultivation, harvesting, transport, and distillation.
Not to mention the "distiller's grains" byproducts.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 07:17:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GFHLD6025413; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:17:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GFHDk9025353; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:17:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=5SF3VW26shiuvOOUXbe0x5rW6Wod+6HHe9R6CAOfhWId+1DpBlUDzOVmBop3VqodzP+sueAyAZH682VluwOsr75hxunU2UeWuNd/NniqiwRjtbNuMCT57S7l1aPR++Iy5AfrGSxSTsRdEu9WzsapToXJXIdpCmgFxwDMb2ikJ1g= ; Message-ID: <20060116151604.14776.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:16:04 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Doesn't have to total to 100% IR, Visible, and UV do not cover the entire EM spectrum, the sun puts out energy over a very broad range of frequencies. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 7:19 AM, > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > > http://www.photonics.com/todaysheadlines/article.asp?id=6070 > > > > > > "With this approach, we are well on our way to > power levels > > exceeding 100 watts per meter," he said. > > > Pretty amazing, though I have to wonder what "well > on our way" means. > > > > > One challenge for organic solar cells has been > the efficient > > capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is > comprised of > > photons (particles of light) that are delivered > across a spectrum > > that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, > the visible > > spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, > yellow, orange > > and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The > amount of incoming > > photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is > about 4, 5 and > > 45 percent, respectively. > > Looks like a typo above. Doesn't add up to 100 > percent. Anyway, > more important than the number of photons is the > amount of *energy* > (per area) incoming in the various bands. > > > The visible spectrum is commonly (i.e. for most > people) 400 to 700 > nm. See: > > > Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: > > Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range > > 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV > 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible > 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR > > Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of The > CRC Handbook. > > Horace Heffner > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 08:57:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GGv17j008987; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:57:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GGuu1s008936; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:56:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:56:42 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E8D4F5B6E7FF-1BAC-D0A@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: DENSO CO2 Heat Pump Innovation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <_Ag5qD.A.cLC.XB9yDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Our news media touted this as a method of reducing greenhouse gases. Well, I doubt enough CO2 will be sequestered to make a difference. It *does*, however, reduce the need for clorofllurocarbons which damage the O3 layer. Does our news media know the difference? http://www.jsme.or.jp/English/awardsn03-3.html "As an environmental protection measure, public attention is now focusing on improving the energy savings of residential water heating, which accounts for about one-third of total household energy consumption. One practical solution is to promote expanded use of "EcoCute," a high efficiency heat pump water heater using a natural refrigerant (CO2). As part of our efforts to increase the popularity of EcoCute, we have developed the world's first variable ejector refrigeration cycle technology for CO2 refrigerants. This technology enables more efficiently designed, larger-capacity water heating systems that can supply hot water for floor heating and other purposes as well as standard hot water systems." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 10:59:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GIwHX1011349; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:58:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GIwCq4011296; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:58:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=paisbGPawGeaq9rJTvStsdd36BB9lHu1BCzPtCS2WRgezx3SpuE6+wvT7jzBheq20c2lsHcT2+pWYk6VhEBxXn5wm4gRVtqBGqtlOJooMgr0oNiqgEE1WtVTdhDTfw5SMCDp/zS58c2by2pel+rK68qIJ0Iqv+UOQG3roDicGgY= ; Message-ID: <20060116185800.69299.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:58:00 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: DENSO CO2 Heat Pump Innovation To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C7E8D4F5B6E7FF-1BAC-D0A@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the main point is simply that it is more efficient, and so reduces power consumption. --- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Our news media touted this as a method of reducing > greenhouse gases. > Well, I doubt enough CO2 will be sequestered to make > a difference. It > *does*, however, reduce the need for > clorofllurocarbons which damage > the O3 layer. Does our news media know the > difference? > > http://www.jsme.or.jp/English/awardsn03-3.html > > "As an environmental protection measure, public > attention is now > focusing on improving the energy savings of > residential water heating, > which accounts for about one-third of total > household energy > consumption. > One practical solution is to promote expanded use of > "EcoCute," a high > efficiency heat pump water heater using a natural > refrigerant (CO2). > As part of our efforts to increase the popularity of > EcoCute, we have > developed the world's first variable ejector > refrigeration cycle > technology for CO2 refrigerants. > This technology enables more efficiently designed, > larger-capacity > water heating systems that can supply hot water for > floor heating and > other purposes as well as standard hot water > systems." > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your > Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 13:15:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GLEav8027700; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:14:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GLEIPR027600; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:14:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:13:53 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E8F8E342EE5D-1E6C-12E0D@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: http://www.bblc.tv Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lots of good stuff; but, ya gotta have broadband. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 13:41:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GLVMRY005064; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:40:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GIlj2o006184; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:47:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:47:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ITX5pIdsSK52SyM4Itk0nRXtgBoo+LjiNMDV02DMTUft+GT+Tal76WWbAie4gSET; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061116184733943@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: DENSO CO2 Heat Pump Innovation Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:47:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940683082284fc399a15a88295dac318c9f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.90 Resent-Message-ID: <462JDC.A.fgB.Qp-yDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I built a heat powered heat pump based on this principle in 1970. The Boiler provided high pressure methanol, ethanol, acetone, Freon, 114, or even trichloroethylene for the ejector. A grad student at UNM did his thesis on it. The best C.O.P. he got from heat (flame) input was 0.5. It also required electrical power for a condensate return pump and the fans on the evaporator and condenser. CO2 has a pressure of 1,000 psi at about 80 F. At it's 88 F critical temperature ~1080 psi. Fred hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > Our news media touted this as a method of reducing greenhouse gases. > Well, I doubt enough CO2 will be sequestered to make a difference. It > *does*, however, reduce the need for clorofllurocarbons which damage > the O3 layer. Does our news media know the difference? > > http://www.jsme.or.jp/English/awardsn03-3.html > > "As an environmental protection measure, public attention is now > focusing on improving the energy savings of residential water heating, > which accounts for about one-third of total household energy > consumption. > One practical solution is to promote expanded use of "EcoCute," a high > efficiency heat pump water heater using a natural refrigerant (CO2). > As part of our efforts to increase the popularity of EcoCute, we have > developed the world's first variable ejector refrigeration cycle > technology for CO2 refrigerants. > This technology enables more efficiently designed, larger-capacity > water heating systems that can supply hot water for floor heating and > other purposes as well as standard hot water systems." > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 14:51:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0GMpMWc016941; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:51:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0GMpJhX016895; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:51:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:51:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:50:57 -1000 Message-ID: <001001c61aef$558f5300$e701a8c0@dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C61A9B.83E34300" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <410-22006101512349945@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <-m8GlC.A.vHE.mNCzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C61A9B.83E34300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred - I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short. - R. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:34 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Don't feel left out , Richard, you are dealing with the most ADHD, " I have my own agenda" group on the Internet. :-) I tried for a week to get feedback on a means for getting vertical lift using a blower and an airfoil rather than a "rotating wing".. Bernoulli's Principle suggests that all I need is an 8 foot diameter disk with a vertical axis squirrel-cage blower at the center on top of it with some deflector plates for torque cancelation. The lower pressure created due to the high velocity radial flow air might give ~ 200 lbs lift if the pressure on top of the disk drops by as much as 0.036 PSI (~3/4 inch water column). Frank G can apply this General Relativity-Beta Ether Bernoulli Principle to get "All ahead Warp 10 Scotty" on his Dr. Who phone booth spacecraft. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/15/2006 4:03:16 AM Subject: Re: Dash Files for LENR Patent Richard Macaulay wrote: > Frank and Jones. > You two give me pause. Picture a 48 " cube clear plexiglas tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top a 5" dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered one > and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing head to above 7,000 rpm. A vortex " > rope" appears in the center below the rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > the member ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away). The rope is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > below 4000 rpm which is similar to a tornado shape that meanders and produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member. Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and the Beta Ether, Richard? How else do you explain it? http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html "Bernoulli's principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) " "Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise jar in your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water faucet as you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. The water that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward that area by the water that is not moving which has greater pressure." Food for thought. No? Fred ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C61A9B.83E34300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Fred=20 -
 
I bet that=20 would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air = over the=20 surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether = again), so=20 the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. = Yes, I=20 think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta = Ether=20 Engine", or FRISBEE for short.
 
<damn,=20 where's the number for my patent lawyer...>
 
-=20 R.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick = Sparber=20 [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, = 2006=20 2:34 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: Dash Files for = LENR=20 Patent

Don't  feel left out , Richard, you are dealing with = the most=20 ADHD,
" I have my own agenda" group on the Internet.  :-)
 
I tried for a week to get feedback on a means for getting = vertical=20 lift
using a blower and an airfoil rather than a "rotating = wing"..
Bernoulli's Principle suggests that all I need is an 8 foot=20 diameter
disk with a vertical axis squirrel-cage blower at the center = on top=20 of it with some
deflector plates for torque cancelation. The lower pressure = created=20
due to the high velocity radial flow air might give ~ 200 lbs = lift if the=20 pressure
on top of the disk drops by as much as 0.036 PSI (~3/4 inch water = column).
 
Frank G can apply this General Relativity-Beta Ether Bernoulli=20 Principle
to  get "All ahead Warp 10 Scotty" on his Dr. Who phone = booth=20 spacecraft.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: 1/15/2006 4:03:16 AM =
Subject: Re: Dash Files for = LENR=20 Patent

Richard Macaulay wrote:

> Frank and Jones.

> You two give me pause. Picture  a 48 " cube clear = plexiglas=20 tank ( not cylindrical) filled with water. >Insert down from top = a 5"=20 dia. diamond shaped high speed vacuum induction mixer head lowered = one >=20 and 1/2 foot below surface. Increase the rpm speed of the mixing = head to=20 above 7,000 rpm. A  vortex " > rope" appears in the center = below the=20 rotating member. The rotating member draws the flow "toward" > = the member=20 ( opposite of the action of a propeller that thrusts away).  = The rope=20 is a near perfect >cylinder like the eye of a hurricane. This=20 configuration is different from the "rope' produced at speeds > = below=20 4000 rpm which is similar to a  tornado shape that meanders and = produces an >occasional"strike" against the rotatiing member.

Are you tying Bernoulli's Principle/Effect into relativity and = the Beta=20 Ether, Richard?

How else do you explain it?

http:/= /www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html

"Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving = faster than=20 the the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, = lower=20 pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a = gas and=20 as such is classified as a fluid.) "

"Perhaps you have noticed, for example, that an empty mayonnaise = jar in=20 your sink with water in it will move in, directly under the water = faucet as=20 you turn on the water. This is the same thing as we observe here. = The water=20 that is moving possesses less pressure, and the jar is pushed toward = that=20 area by the water that is not moving which has greater = pressure."

Food for thought. No?

Fred

 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C61A9B.83E34300-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 17:08:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0H18Kin020303; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:08:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0H18HA5020275; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:08:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:08:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DV/sGoqHOt17IJlmgDQ/UHaaccjrzXfwrAZpYion7QJ5cE8rzEKYt2dAmzWP6vfn; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612171813780@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:08:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c295dc2e4e422698e20ff8dff70fa41f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Rick Monteverde wrote: " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Rick Monteverde wrote:
 
 " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short."
 
Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it.  :-)
 
OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have
a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel.
 
Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale?
 
A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing
rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them.
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 17:17:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0H1HH6K024432; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:17:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0H1HGJi024411; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:17:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:17:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060116151604.14776.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060116151604.14776.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <72592CE7-6CA1-4DB6-9E38-B9D5316E8DC7@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:14:38 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 16, 2006, at 6:16 AM, Merlyn wrote: > Doesn't have to total to 100% > IR, Visible, and UV do not cover the entire EM > spectrum, the sun puts out energy over a very broad > range of frequencies. >> Sure it does. Look at the table again. >> Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: >> >> Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range >> >> 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV >> 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible >> 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR >> >> Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of The >> CRC Handbook. >> >> Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 17:50:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0H1nmqc011868; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:49:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0H1niHW011811; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:49:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:49:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:49:23 -1000 Message-ID: <001f01c61b08$42944760$e701a8c0@dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61AB4.70E83760" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <410-2200612171813780@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61AB4.70E83760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred - Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo. I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little counterspin before throwing. - R. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Rick Monteverde wrote: " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. Fred ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61AB4.70E83760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Fred=20 -
 
Cover=20 the bottom with something non-rotating.
 
I=20 built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts = with thick=20 resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no = skirt) was=20 fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor = underneath so the=20 bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound = of weight=20 when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo. =
 
I=20 wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the = underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on = one with=20 no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little = counterspin=20 before throwing.
 
-=20 R.
-----Original Message-----
From: = Frederick=20 Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, = January 16,=20 2006 3:08 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: = Dash=20 Files for LENR Patent

Rick = Monteverde=20 wrote:
 
 " I bet = that would=20 work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over = the=20 surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether=20 again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't = even=20 necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely = Rotating Intake=20 Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short."
 
Cool Rick. = Too bad I=20 didn't think of it.  :-)
 
OTOH if you = spin just a=20 disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have
a skirt) it = will be=20 symmetrical and cancel.
 
Got a pie = tin, mini=20 motor and a digital scale?
 
A long time = ago before=20 Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt=20 roofing
rolls = impressive=20 distances. But our dog knew better than catching = them.
 
Fred
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61AB4.70E83760-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 19:10:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0H39qK7020407; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:09:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0H39pBf020393; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:09:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:09:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=T5Xd25ux27tE/YX7ER8+RzJ+QJmXXbrLbW/mw5JgqEBJip/aBRDkVByjdsWSpogu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200612173940866@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:09:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406514d532e003d32409f15c1788a9ba9f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.213 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Good info, Rick. That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of motors. The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is interesting to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square feet. Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, is easy enough, I think. OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. 4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Fred - Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo. I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little counterspin before throwing. - R. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Rick Monteverde wrote: " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Message
Good info, Rick.
 
That might explain some of the reported  "antigravity weight loss" of motors.
 
The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is interesting
to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square feet.
Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say,
is easy enough, I think.
 
OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of
a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower
hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow,
might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you
can Surf  the Clouds with on Saturdays.
 
4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam?
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM
Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Fred -
 
Cover the bottom with something non-rotating.
 
I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo.
 
I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little counterspin before throwing.
 
- R.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Rick Monteverde wrote:
 
 " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short."
 
Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it.  :-)
 
OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have
a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel.
 
Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale?
 
A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing
rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them.
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 16 20:12:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0H4C6rn016053; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:12:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0H4C433016032; Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:12:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060117041153839.CD04A5800083@mwinf3114.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060117041155.009989bc@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 04:11:55 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:09 pm 16/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: I wonder if anyone has ever optimised the Frisbee design by doing what Messerschmitt did with the Bf 109 wing, i.e. a completely empirical approach with a series of small changes and precise measurement of the effects - He deliberately made them too weak and saw which line of rivets popped first - a process of climbing up the efficiency slope to find the top of the hill. Of course, there's is no guarantee it's the highest hill. 8-( Frank >Good info, Rick. > >That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of motors. > >The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is interesting >to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square feet. >Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, >is easy enough, I think. > >OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of >a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower >hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, >might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you >can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. > >4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? > >Fred >----- Original Message ----- >From: Rick Monteverde >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > >Fred - > >Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. > >I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo. > >I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little counterspin before throwing. > >- R. >-----Original Message----- >From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] >Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > >Rick Monteverde wrote: > > " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." > >Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) > >OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have >a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. > >Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? > >A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing >rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. > >Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 02:31:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HAUanr014234; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:30:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HAUXCe014189; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:30:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:30:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DAivoiQg2xcQPxc+lVMGwhMABhI8+Dc+9dM6gNezd/Tw2MT5M31Z0gtiihLMqwyl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061217103023443@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:30:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400674620dcc51231a40a966541d14e5ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank. To answer a question with a question. What happens to the lift if you use a rotating disk or blow air over a board with a gazillion holes (blind or through?) in it? Will rotating your hemispherical spaghetti strainer (fixed plate seal on bottom?) add buoyancy lift to the Bernoulli lift? Banned from the kitchen forever? :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Grimer > To: > Date: 1/16/2006 9:12:13 PM > Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > At 08:09 pm 16/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > I wonder if anyone has ever optimised the Frisbee design > by doing what Messerschmitt did with the Bf 109 wing, > i.e. a completely empirical approach with a series of > small changes and precise measurement of the effects - > He deliberately made them too weak and saw which line > of rivets popped first - a process of climbing up the > efficiency slope to find the top of the hill. > Of course, there's is no guarantee it's the highest hill. 8-( > > Frank > > > > >Good info, Rick. > > > >That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of motors. > > > >The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is interesting > >to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square feet. > >Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, > >is easy enough, I think. > > > >OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of > >a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower > >hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, > >might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you > >can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. > > > >4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? > > > >Fred > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Rick Monteverde > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM > >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > > >Fred - > > > >Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. > > > >I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a small gizmo. > > > >I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little counterspin before throwing. > > > >- R. > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > >Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > > >Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." > > > >Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) > > > >OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have > >a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. > > > >Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? > > > >A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off asphalt roofing > >rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. > > > >Fred > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 03:02:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HB2Nqj029741; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:02:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HB2MsU029704; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:02:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CN70MY7lfZozG62UnOjuKemKjM9rWMzG3gMxtM+EbPGryYrxpw5WNRwl8xB1zGDW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006121711216263@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 04:02:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b75281c2c2a70976bf08f2249f677f21350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The archives folks don't miss a trick, do they? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg10973.html http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/search.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=SEARS&k eyword=leaf%20blower&sid=ISx20050308x0000388&displayTarget=searchresults http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=LAWN&p id=07179496000 "Craftsman 25cc Gas Blower with Vacuum Kit ( $129.99) Sears item #07179496000 Mfr. model #358794960 205 mph/ 410 CFM. Great for cleaning the sidewalks and driveway. The vacuum kit lets you pick up and mulch leaves up to a 16 to 1 mulching reduction. The soft touch handle helps to dampen the vibration and gives a sturdier grip." Looks like Rick will be Surfing the Clouds over Honolulu this weekend. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 1/17/2006 3:30:39 AM > Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > Frank. > > To answer a question with a question. > > What happens to the lift if you use a rotating disk or > blow air over a board with a gazillion holes (blind or through?) in it? > Will rotating your hemispherical spaghetti strainer (fixed plate seal on > bottom?) > add buoyancy lift to the Bernoulli lift? > Banned from the kitchen forever? :-) > > Fred > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Grimer > > To: > > Date: 1/16/2006 9:12:13 PM > > Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > At 08:09 pm 16/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > > > I wonder if anyone has ever optimised the Frisbee design > > by doing what Messerschmitt did with the Bf 109 wing, > > i.e. a completely empirical approach with a series of > > small changes and precise measurement of the effects - > > He deliberately made them too weak and saw which line > > of rivets popped first - a process of climbing up the > > efficiency slope to find the top of the hill. > > Of course, there's is no guarantee it's the highest hill. 8-( > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > >Good info, Rick. > > > > > >That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of > motors. > > > > > >The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is > interesting > > >to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square > feet. > > >Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, > > >is easy enough, I think. > > > > > >OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of > > >a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower > > >hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, > > >might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you > > >can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. > > > > > >4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? > > > > > >Fred > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Rick Monteverde > > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > >Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM > > >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > > > > > >Fred - > > > > > >Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. > > > > > >I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts > with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk > (no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the > motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. > Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a > small gizmo. > > > > > >I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on > the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one > with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little > counterspin before throwing. > > > > > >- R. > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > > >Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM > > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > > > > > > > >Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > > > " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in > air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether > again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even > necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface > Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." > > > > > >Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) > > > > > >OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have > > >a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. > > > > > >Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? > > > > > >A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off > asphalt roofing > > >rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. > > > > > >Fred > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 07:08:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HF89Ea026469; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:08:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HF83d3026425; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:08:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:08:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H5DORqDywv50+cQ64I1CK2oS0UAGcwqc+8StGZQHi67i6zg/GABftXTVNrHTQfWa; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061217122848211@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 05:28:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a927143bf976312c067a5498813412ed350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.35 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Craftsman 30cc Gas Backpack Blower Incredi-Pull™ Unbelievable Starting Ease™ w/ MAX FIRE IGNITION™, 30cc, 2-Cycle Full Crank Engine, Large capacity 20 oz fuel tank, Produces up to 180 MPH / 480 CFM, Ergonomic variable throttle control, Bonus! concentrator nozzle included, Padded shoulder straps. $199.99 http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=07179499000&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=LAWN&cs=ALT http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Airfoil: Plate Size: Chord 4.0 ft., Span 7.975 ft., Area 31.9 Sq. ft. Shape/Angle: Angle-Deg 1.08, Camber-% /c 0.0, Thick-%/crd 4.0 Flight Test: Earth Average Day Backpack Blower Air Flow Speed mph: 180 Altitude: 1300 ft. Lift: 300 LBS. There you go, Rick! :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Craftsman 30cc Gas Backpack Blower

Incredi-Pull™ Unbelievable Starting Ease™ w/ MAX FIRE IGNITION™, 30cc, 2-Cycle Full Crank Engine, Large capacity 20 oz fuel tank, Produces up to 180 MPH / 480 CFM, Ergonomic variable throttle control, Bonus! concentrator nozzle included, Padded shoulder straps. $199.99

 
 
 
 
Airfoil:   Plate
 
Size: Chord 4.0 ft., Span 7.975 ft., Area 31.9 Sq. ft.
 
Shape/Angle:  Angle-Deg 1.08, Camber-% /c  0.0, Thick-%/crd 4.0
 
Flight Test:  Earth Average Day
 
Backpack Blower Air Flow Speed mph:  180
 
Altitude:  1300 ft.
 
Lift:  300 LBS.  There you go, Rick!  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 07:40:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HFeDgZ010503; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:40:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HFeC2U010470; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:40:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:40:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WErO+3YIh8yEmxCBy/WDN0V2uh01ku3Ed7jL+JpXTED3X3mO6gy/iBBTIzIpasT3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006121715400812@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bernoulli and Beta Ether was Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:40:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401b291f864bc699165ff75f18a61d5cac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.74 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Why shouldn't it work inside a craft, even out in space? US 6,834,829 Dec 28 2004 "A vertical lift aircraft comprises a cabin mounted to an enclosed rotary wing which provides vertical lift for the aircraft. The rotary wing includes an annular housing and a main rotor blade rotatable within a space circumscribed by the housing. The main rotor blade is rotatable about a rotation axis that is tilted forwardly from a vertical axis of the aircraft. A horizontal directional control for the aircraft includes a plurality of control slides disposed at spaced locations along the housing and being movable inwardly and outwardly in a radial direction between a neutral position in which the control slides are retracted from the downdraft area and an operational position in which the control slides are extended into the downdraft area. Selective deployment of one or more control slides in the operational position effects horizontal directional turning of the aircraft in the direction of the one or more deployed control slides." http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/Bernoulli.html "Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) " Continuous flow of high velocity column of air over a surface (blower intake & exhaust spread over a surface) creates Beat Ether vortices in an enclosed craft? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 1/17/2006 8:08:20 AM Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Craftsman 30cc Gas Backpack Blower Incredi-Pull™ Unbelievable Starting Ease™ w/ MAX FIRE IGNITION™, 30cc, 2-Cycle Full Crank Engine, Large capacity 20 oz fuel tank, Produces up to 180 MPH / 480 CFM, Ergonomic variable throttle control, Bonus! concentrator nozzle included, Padded shoulder straps. $199.99 http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=07179499000&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=LAWN&cs=ALT http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Airfoil: Plate Size: Chord 4.0 ft., Span 7.975 ft., Area 31.9 Sq. ft. Shape/Angle: Angle-Deg 1.08, Camber-% /c 0.0, Thick-%/crd 4.0 Flight Test: Earth Average Day Backpack Blower Air Flow Speed mph: 180 Altitude: 1300 ft. Lift: 300 LBS. There you go, Rick! :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Why shouldn't it work inside a craft, even out in space?
 
US 6,834,829 Dec 28 2004
 
"A vertical lift aircraft comprises a cabin mounted to an enclosed rotary wing which provides vertical lift for the aircraft. The rotary wing includes an annular housing and a main rotor blade rotatable within a space circumscribed by the housing. The main rotor blade is rotatable about a rotation axis that is tilted forwardly from a vertical axis of the aircraft. A horizontal directional control for the aircraft includes a plurality of control slides disposed at spaced locations along the housing and being movable inwardly and outwardly in a radial direction between a neutral position in which the control slides are retracted from the downdraft area and an operational position in which the control slides are extended into the downdraft area. Selective deployment of one or more control slides in the operational position effects horizontal directional turning of the aircraft in the direction of the one or more deployed control slides."
 
 
"Bernoulli’s principle states that fluids in an area moving faster than  the surrounding area possess less pressure. Faster-moving fluid, lower pressure. (In general, fluids include liquids and gasses. Air is a gas and as such is classified as a fluid.) "
 
Continuous flow of high velocity  column of air over a surface (blower intake & exhaust spread
over a surface) creates Beat Ether vortices in an enclosed craft?
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/17/2006 8:08:20 AM
Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent

Craftsman 30cc Gas Backpack Blower

Incredi-Pull™ Unbelievable Starting Ease™ w/ MAX FIRE IGNITION™, 30cc, 2-Cycle Full Crank Engine, Large capacity 20 oz fuel tank, Produces up to 180 MPH / 480 CFM, Ergonomic variable throttle control, Bonus! concentrator nozzle included, Padded shoulder straps. $199.99

 
 
 
 
Airfoil:   Plate
 
Size: Chord 4.0 ft., Span 7.975 ft., Area 31.9 Sq. ft.
 
Shape/Angle:  Angle-Deg 1.08, Camber-% /c  0.0, Thick-%/crd 4.0
 
Flight Test:  Earth Average Day
 
Backpack Blower Air Flow Speed mph:  180
 
Altitude:  1300 ft.
 
Lift:  300 LBS.  There you go, Rick!  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 08:30:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HGTxSh002053; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:30:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HGTuJg002013; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:29:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:29:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c61b7e$82db30b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220061217122848211@earthlink.net> Subject: Airborne Backpack Blower Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:55:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Holy Quetzalcoatl ! Ha! Talk about more headaches for the US Border Patrol... You might not sabe ...if you do not live in the 'Golden State', where on the average Fall day, in every gentrified neighborhood up and down the coast(which means million dollar houses which would be worth $250k in the rest of the USA) there will whole villages of Latino men - madly blowing leaves back and forth into adjoining yards using those abominably noisy contraptions... If they only knew that they did not have to pay Senor Coyote for the next crossing... Maybe this will be a good reason to ban the damn things. Oops ... comments like that will get me wire-tapped by DHS for sure.... I mean what is more down-home-Amurcan than Craftsman ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber Craftsman 30cc Gas Backpack Blower Incredi-PullT Unbelievable Starting EaseT w/ MAX FIRE IGNITIONT, 30cc, 2-Cycle Full Crank Engine, Large capacity 20 oz fuel tank, Produces up to 180 MPH / 480 CFM, Ergonomic variable throttle control, Bonus! concentrator nozzle included, Padded shoulder straps. $199.99 http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=07179499000&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=LAWN&cs=ALT http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Airfoil: Plate Size: Chord 4.0 ft., Span 7.975 ft., Area 31.9 Sq. ft. Shape/Angle: Angle-Deg 1.08, Camber-% /c 0.0, Thick-%/crd 4.0 Flight Test: Earth Average Day Backpack Blower Air Flow Speed mph: 180 Altitude: 1300 ft. Lift: 300 LBS. There you go, Rick! :-) Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 08:38:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HGUvDg003002; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:37:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HFcJDQ009764; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:38:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:38:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117094938.03499810@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117094842.03438728@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:49:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Yale Daily News prints letters by Storms, Kelves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yale Daily News, Friday Jan. 13, 2006: http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31250 LETTERS Published Friday, January 13, 2006 Professor's denial of cold fusion phenomenon has detrimental consequences To the Editor: The myth that "cold fusion" is not real and an example of bad science has again raised its ugly head. On Sunday, Prof. B. H. Kevles of the Yale History Department wrote an article in the Washington Post entitled "Barely a Drop of Fraud" (1/8). Although the article was about the recent cloning research scandal in South Korea, Prof. Kevles compared this acknowledged academic fraud to the announcement of cold fusion made in 1989 by Profs. Fleischmann and Pons at the University of Utah. She wrote in part: "It is true that there have been some great scientific misdeeds in the past. Who can forget Piltdown Man, the manufactured fossil skull that puzzled anthropologists for decades? Or the claims of the discovery of cold fusion in 1989 at the University of Utah?" By lumping it with these examples of well-executed hoaxes, the writer of an otherwise excellent article demonstrated how widely believed the myth about cold fusion has become. Normally, this would not be an important issue, but these are not normal times with respect to the need for energy. While it is true, the initial claims that energy could be made from nuclear fusion were rejected by many in the scientific profession, in some cases, with good reason. It is not true that the claims were shown to be false. Over the years, studies in 10 countries, at major universities and at several national laboratories revealed even more unusual behavior. This subject has become one of the most amazing discoveries of this century. Hundreds of papers have been published, some in conventional scientific journals, supporting the original claims and extending our understanding. The details of these studies can be easily read by going to LENR-CANR.org. The issue now is what is to be done with this novel source of clean and inexhaustible energy. Are we to reject it based on the myth used by uninformed people, or should every effort be made to understand and apply the discovery? Our future will depend on the answer we give. Edmund Storms Jan. 12, 2006 The writer is a retired employee of Los Alamos National Laboratory. Kevles' response: http://yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31289 To the Editor: Edmund Storms ("Professor's denial of cold fusion phenomenon has detrimental consequences," 1/13) seems to have misread my Washington Post article, which mentioned only in passing the Cold Fusion episode in 1989 at the University of Utah. I did not characterize the episode as a case of fraud but as an example of scientific "misdeeds." Moreover, I referred only to the Utah claims, not to all research in cold fusion since then. The events of 1989 were a low point in the presentation of putatively significant scientific results to both the world of science and the larger public. In March, the scientists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann announced that, in their University of Utah lab, they had achieved at room temperature the type of nuclear-fusion reaction that fuels the sun and fires hydrogen bombs. This astonishing "breakthrough" contradicted the known laws of physics but promised a panacea for our ever-growing national need for an alternate source of energy, not to mention great wealth to those who developed it. Under instructions from President George H. W. Bush, the Department of Energy created an authoritative scientific panel to evaluate the claim, and the Utah legislature responded unanimously to the Utah governor's offer to provide the researchers with $5 million. Pons and Fleischmann's initial published paper about their research lacked essential raw data and experimental details. When asked to supply their scientific colleagues with more information, they persistently refused. Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only guess at the apparatus they had used. Eventually, their particular claims were refuted as theoretically unfounded and without experimental support. This is the incident I referred to in my article and it has altogether nothing to do with research since in this field. Bettyann Kevles Jan. 15, 2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 10:12:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HICDX0030513; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:12:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HIBMDM030024; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:11:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:11:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=zZ07YnBVR4aJ4TkbYCEYqz9mOAEGCHvOide0gJ1DAApBWwNZh+tGXhDjVGTfl4BGxr/ZDr6WxG2he/JYa21j1RxgagmSMDkN8S2kKohSF1fJsL4A/WCondnc/3GixM7onJyEwNUYpmEFqymQfdec+Uro3aHkEQBnhb0GZ06NKvM= ; Message-ID: <20060117171107.77654.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:11:07 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <72592CE7-6CA1-4DB6-9E38-B9D5316E8DC7@mtaonline.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to my table (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ems1.html) UV is only considered to be wavelengths between 10nm and 400nm, and IR is wavelengths from 750nm to 1mm (1,000,000nm) So, your table does not include x- and gamma- rays, nor the RF frequencies. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 6:16 AM, Merlyn wrote: > > > Doesn't have to total to 100% > > IR, Visible, and UV do not cover the entire EM > > spectrum, the sun puts out energy over a very > broad > > range of frequencies. > >> > > > > Sure it does. Look at the table again. > > > > >> Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: > >> > >> Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range > >> > >> 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV > >> 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible > >> 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR > >> > >> Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of > The > >> CRC Handbook. > >> > >> Horace Heffner > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 11:33:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HJWtGW018279; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:32:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HJWa2d018155; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=f1kfutEuYAENYmZCCvaVIMpBobgyBnTtCoo0QvwV6ao56hmug7N4uMB1wkDceyOU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061217193233452@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:32:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408366d10d564ae5801800e20a7b720211350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do you have any references for a search, Frank? Fred > [Original Message] > From: Grimer > To: > Date: 1/17/2006 11:49:41 AM > Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > > At 03:30 am 17/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > > Fred > > To answer a question in answer to a question with an answer, > I suggest one needs to adopt the Messerschmitt solution which > led to the production of the very successful Bf 109, two of > which as a boy of 12 I saw flying 50 feet above my head in > 1944 (shades of Jim Graham in Empire of the Sun) - in other > words, one needs to suck it and see. 8-) > > Frank > > > > > > > >Frank. > > > >To answer a question with a question. > > > >What happens to the lift if you use a rotating disk or > >blow air over a board with a gazillion holes (blind or through?) in it? > >Will rotating your hemispherical spaghetti strainer (fixed plate seal on > >bottom?) > >add buoyancy lift to the Bernoulli lift? > >Banned from the kitchen forever? :-) > > > >Fred > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Grimer > >> To: > >> Date: 1/16/2006 9:12:13 PM > >> Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > >> > >> At 08:09 pm 16/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >> > >> I wonder if anyone has ever optimised the Frisbee design > >> by doing what Messerschmitt did with the Bf 109 wing, > >> i.e. a completely empirical approach with a series of > >> small changes and precise measurement of the effects - > >> He deliberately made them too weak and saw which line > >> of rivets popped first - a process of climbing up the > >> efficiency slope to find the top of the hill. > >> Of course, there's is no guarantee it's the highest hill. 8-( > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> > >> > >> >Good info, Rick. > >> > > >> >That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of > >motors. > >> > > >> >The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is > >interesting > >> >to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square > >feet. > >> >Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, > >> >is easy enough, I think. > >> > > >> >OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of > >> >a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower > >> >hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, > >> >might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you > >> >can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. > >> > > >> >4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? > >> > > >> >Fred > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: Rick Monteverde > >> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> >Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM > >> >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > >> > > >> > > >> >Fred - > >> > > >> >Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. > >> > > >> >I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts > >with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk > >(no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the > >motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. > >Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a > >small gizmo. > >> > > >> >I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on > >the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one > >with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little > >counterspin before throwing. > >> > > >> >- R. > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > >> >Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM > >> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent > >> > > >> > > >> >Rick Monteverde wrote: > >> > > >> > " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in > >air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether > >again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even > >necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface > >Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." > >> > > >> >Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) > >> > > >> >OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have > >> >a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. > >> > > >> >Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? > >> > > >> >A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off > >asphalt roofing > >> >rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. > >> > > >> >Fred > >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 12:23:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HJkWbF026044; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:46:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HJkMar025919; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:46:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:46:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060117171107.77654.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060117171107.77654.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3F91B987-D7B9-4078-8676-80534262A39B@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:43:54 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <2HqZJB.A.hUG.NmUzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh, I just noticed the CRC table is located on page 14-10, not 18-10 as I noted. If you look at solar insolation factors by frequency you see it drops off to nothing at the tails. For example, from 0 to 120 nm there is only 0.00044 percent. From 120 to 140 there is only another .00009 percent. The table actually shows that from 0 to 100,000 nm the cumulative percent of solar insolation is 99.999002 percent. So basically we are quibbling about a few thousandths of a percent. Below is an updated table using your range. Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range 0 - 10 *** less than 0.00044 percent*** 10 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR 100000 - 1000000 *** less than .000998 percent *** Derived from page 14-10 of the 74th Edition of The CRC Handbook. The original article seems to leave out about 54 percent, which is not even close. Here is the quote again: > > One challenge for organic solar cells has been the efficient > capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is comprised of > photons (particles of light) that are delivered across a spectrum > that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, the visible > spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange > and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The amount of incoming > photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is about 4, 5 and > 45 percent, respectively. On Jan 17, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Merlyn wrote: > According to my table > (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ems1.html) > > UV is only considered to be wavelengths between 10nm > and 400nm, and IR is wavelengths from 750nm to 1mm > (1,000,000nm) > > So, your table does not include x- and gamma- rays, > nor the RF frequencies. > > --- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> >> On Jan 16, 2006, at 6:16 AM, Merlyn wrote: >> >>> Doesn't have to total to 100% >>> IR, Visible, and UV do not cover the entire EM >>> spectrum, the sun puts out energy over a very >> broad >>> range of frequencies. >>>> >> >> >> >> Sure it does. Look at the table again. >> >> >> >>>> Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: >>>> >>>> Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range >>>> >>>> 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV >>>> 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible >>>> 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR >>>> >>>> Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of >> The >>>> CRC Handbook. >>>> >>>> Horace Heffner >> >> >> > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 13:07:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HL0YPX020052; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:06:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HKw1BC018995; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:58:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060117205544242.3B17B9400085@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060117205545.0097b33c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:55:45 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0HKvslX018914 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The other night I was turning this problem over and visualizing the longitudinal mu waves coming in to the water molecule and shaking it all about, when I suddenly saw it didn't matter that my equation was dimensionally incorrect (apparently). The fact that the oscillations of the water molecule result from the mu wave means that length and time are married. ========================================= itaque iam non sunt duo sed una caro quod ergo Deus coniunxit homo non separet ========================================= But God hasn't joined them together has he? It's man that's joined them together and what man has joined together, man can wrench asunder. 8-) The brutal truth is that the coupling of the longitudinal wavelength with the basis for the measurement of time means that the constancy of the velocity of light is a delusion - a self deception. It's the old numerator/denominator situation. If I couple the amount of money you might have at any one time with the amount of money in circulation at that same time then you will never get any richer or poorer. Your wealth is constant - just like the velocity of light. What a cock up! 8-( My reaction when I recognised what the discovery of mu entailed filled me with a mixture of emotions I had only experienced once before, namely, when I realised materials were held together from without and not from within - and that tension in all its forms was merely a negation of some pre- existing compression. On the one hand there was the thrill of seeing something for the first time and not a little schadenfreude at the discomfiture its coercive nature would give the doctored Porks of this world. On the other hand there was the weight of responsibility that realisation of such a truth confers on a philosopher. Fortunately, this time I don't have to confront an international conference ready to tear me limb from limb (so I imagined - wrongly, as good fortune would have it) but only try to convince a group of people who, whatever their in-built prejudices are genuine seekers after truth for it's own sake - and not a group of professional Pontius Pilate's who wouldn't recognise truth if it bit them on the bum. I don't have a career to worry about, I can't be threatened with dismissal and I don't have any family responsibilities as an excuse for chickening out of the task of undertaking one of the seven corporal works of mercy. ;-) So, since the path to Rome begins with but one small step - here goes. 8-) When I was a young Scientific Officer at the Building Research Station we were having the usual chin-wag at our tea-break when a certain Dr.Stott of the Special Problems Section, the intellectual elite of the Station, posed the water and wine riddle. There are two glasses. One with water and one with the same amount of wine. A spoonful of wine is taken from the wine and put into the water. A spoonful of the mixture is put back into the wine. Is there now more water in the wine or more wine in the water. Now I could see intuitively that they must be both the same and immediately said so. Dr. Stott startled at the rapidity of my answer, said, "You must have heard it before, Grimer." "What a cheek," I replied. "Just because you couldn't straight away see the answer when you were asked the riddle without going all around the houses, you assume nobody else can." The alleged constant velocity of light is a bit like that riddle. I could immediately see the implications of the longitudinal light wavelength, mu. I suppose the fact that I realised materials were held together from the outside and that things like clock rates are not intrinsic but manifestations of the surrounding environment, must have helped. However, it is too much to expect group members to instantly appreciate the significance of mu so I shall have to try and hack out a longer route. An excerpt from the Randy Mills SCQM group wont come amiss at this point. A certain member wrote, ============================================== "Dr. Mills may very well eventually be able to render some parts of SQM obsolete by providing a workable model of many aspects of physical structure and relationships. But a word of caution is in order. In the process he may discover something that is entirely contrary to his and our cherished beliefs. Will we accept where the results lead? The future may be more challenging than we can imagine." ============================================== Mmm.... very enigmatic. The member uses the handle, mystic606, which is better than mystic666 I suppose . Still, if any Vorts have aprehensions about where this thread might lead, they would be well advised to put it in their killfile now. 8-) Cheers, Frank -------------------------------------------------------------- Will you walk into my parlour?" said the Spider to the Fly, 'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there." Oh no, no," said the little Fly, "to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair can ne'er come down again." -------------------------------------------------------------- Matt 19:6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. vortex-l <-- Thread --> <-- Date --> Find Re: The Horace Hiatus Grimer Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:22:53 -0800 At 08:57 am 14/01/2006 -0900, you wrote: >A 6 month Hiatus happens to be just what I need. My personal (i.e. >real) life needs attention! > >On Jan 14, 2006, at 7:02 AM, Grimer wrote: > >> Hi Horace, >> >> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:26:55 -0800 you displayed the >> curiosity of a true scientist when you wrote, >> >> ==================================================== >> That's interesting. I wonder how water does that. >> The 320 GHz, 180 GHz, and 22 GHz is around .0936 cm, >> 0.1666 cm, and 1.363 cm wavelength respectively. >> That is to say I wonder how that tiny molecule >> collects those giant wavelengths? It must be the >> effect Bill Beaty talks about, where an antenna >> sets up its own field that interferes with the big >> incoming signal and collects energy from it. I never >> did understand that effect. >> ==================================================== >> >> Now just how "giant" is that wavelength gap between cms >> and the size of "that tiny molecule". Well, if we go to >> Prof. Chaplin's unsurpassed website on the properties >> of water we will find a water molecule, as pretty as a >> picture, at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html >> >> The accompanying text reads, >> >> ==================================================== >> The mean van der Waals diameter of water has been >> reported as identical with that of isoelectronic >> neon (2.82 Å) [112]. Molecular model values and >> intermediate peak radial distribution data indicates >> however that it is somewhat greater (~3.2Å). The >> molecule is clearly not spherical, however, with >> about a ±5% variation in van der Waals diameter >> dependent on the axis chosen; approximately >> tetrahedrally placed slight indentations being >> apparent opposite the (putative) electron pairs. >> ==================================================== >> >> American philosopher and psychologist, Bill James, wrote >> >> "The are of being wise is the art >> of knowing what to overlook." >> >> We won't worry about the details, then, and take the size >> of the molecule as 3 angstroms. >> >> 3 angstroms = 3.0 × 10^[-10] meters >> >> So we are not talking simply about a gap, we are talking >> about a Grand Canyon. We are talking an order of magnitude >> of orders of magnitude. > >Well, yes, all the above was my point. How do cm sized wavelengths >get absorbed by angstrom sized molecules and atoms according to the >"little antenna" effect. > > >> [snip] >> And now that I do see, I realise that mu, the longitudinal >> wave length of light is simply this >> >> mu = lambda/c >> >> give or take a slice or two of mothers apple pi, possibly 8-) >> >> Where mu is the longitudinal wave length >> lambda is the familiar transverse wavelength >> c is the velocity of light. >> >> ...like the contents of the spittoon - it's all in one piece. 8-) > >Well, the pancake may be lambda/c thin, but it still flies flat, so >even in this model the same problem of how it gets picked by one >molecule remains, i.e. how one molecule absorbs the energy from such >a large area of potentiality. > >Horace Heffner Good point. Maybe that is where the Bill Beaty effect comes into play. I must say I learnt more about electricity by reading Bill's stuff than I ever learned anywhere else. A pancake is going to want to collapse to the maximum V/A value. Presumably the water molecule seeds that collapse. Good luck with your "real life". 8-) Frank The Horace Hiatus Grimer Re: The Horace Hiatus Horace Heffner Re: The Horace Hiatus Grimer Reply via email to From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 13:07:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HL0YPZ020052; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:07:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HIcH0f013549; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:38:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:38:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117115448.034ae0d0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:58:04 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: K-e-v-l-e-s. Sorry. In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117094938.03499810@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117094938.03499810@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I keep getting the name wrong. It upsets me when other people misspell names. It upsets me even more when I do! Rather than beat a dead horse, I asked Ed if he would like to summarize the situation with a few sentences in our News section. We should report that Kevles is still being unreasonable. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 13:07:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HL0YPb020052; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:07:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HIjWoX017306; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:45:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:45:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <22011245.1137518889112.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 9:28:09 -0800 From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yale Daily News prints letters by Storms, Kelves Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From Jed Rothwell wrote: > Yale Daily News, Friday Jan. 13, 2006: > > http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31250 > ... Jed, Kevles' reply to Ed Storm's protest gives me the impression of someone trying his best to extricate himself having to admit the possibility that he may have written a piece that (while very informative on the Cloning issue) makes an uninformed and inappropriate analogy between the recent scandal and claims of CF. I'm sure Kevles remains convinced of his vindication. Never the less, I believe it is very telling that Kevles emphasizes the fact that he was not referring to CF research AFTER the 1989 F&P announcement. I think he's trying to himself a little wiggle room while simultaneously going on the offense in suggesting that Mr. Storms seems to have "misread" his Washington Post article. Never the less, I gather from what Jed has previously said on the history of the 1989 F&P incident, Kevles continues to support two inaccurate comments: 1) "When asked to supply their [F&P] scientific colleagues with more information, they persistently refused. And Kevles' subsequent statement: 2) Other scientists trying to replicate their experiments could only guess at the apparatus they had used. Perhaps it is time to remind Kevles, once again, of these inaccuracies, or otherwise demand that he back up these two claims that he appears to adamantly support. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 13:08:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HL0YPd020052; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:07:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HIn9E1019703; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:49:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:49:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060117172855603.9347B6400090@mwinf3109.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060117172856.00a1ee78@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:28:56 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: <8e9kqD.A.pzE.jwTzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:30 am 17/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: Fred To answer a question in answer to a question with an answer, I suggest one needs to adopt the Messerschmitt solution which led to the production of the very successful Bf 109, two of which as a boy of 12 I saw flying 50 feet above my head in 1944 (shades of Jim Graham in Empire of the Sun) - in other words, one needs to suck it and see. 8-) Frank >Frank. > >To answer a question with a question. > >What happens to the lift if you use a rotating disk or >blow air over a board with a gazillion holes (blind or through?) in it? >Will rotating your hemispherical spaghetti strainer (fixed plate seal on >bottom?) >add buoyancy lift to the Bernoulli lift? >Banned from the kitchen forever? :-) > >Fred > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Grimer >> To: >> Date: 1/16/2006 9:12:13 PM >> Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent >> >> At 08:09 pm 16/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >> >> I wonder if anyone has ever optimised the Frisbee design >> by doing what Messerschmitt did with the Bf 109 wing, >> i.e. a completely empirical approach with a series of >> small changes and precise measurement of the effects - >> He deliberately made them too weak and saw which line >> of rivets popped first - a process of climbing up the >> efficiency slope to find the top of the hill. >> Of course, there's is no guarantee it's the highest hill. 8-( >> >> Frank >> >> >> >> >Good info, Rick. >> > >> >That might explain some of the reported "antigravity weight loss" of >motors. >> > >> >The 90 ft/sec perimeter velocity on a 12 inch disk at 1728 rpm is >interesting >> >to say the least, if it saw a thrust of about a pound in 0.785 square >feet. >> >Covering "the bottom with something non rotating" as you say, >> >is easy enough, I think. >> > >> >OTOH, a board mounted on a scale with the suction end of >> >a vacuum cleaner or leaf blower on one end and the blower >> >hose on the other setting up high velocity air flow, >> >might lead to an Aero-Hoverboard that you >> >can Surf the Clouds with on Saturdays. >> > >> >4' x 8 ' x 3" fiber glassed Styrofoam? >> > >> >Fred >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Rick Monteverde >> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >Sent: 1/16/2006 6:49:49 PM >> >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent >> > >> > >> >Fred - >> > >> >Cover the bottom with something non-rotating. >> > >> >I built a small centrifuge a while back for casting small plastic parts >with thick resin, 1728rpm motor, disk 12" or so in diameter. The flat disk >(no skirt) was fully exposed above but was recessed into a box with the >motor underneath so the bottom was exposed to the inside of the closed box. >Lost about a pound of weight when run, which seemed like a lot for such a >small gizmo. >> > >> >I wonder how a freely rotating air-blocking disk mounted on an axle on >the underside of a frisbee would affect performance. Maybe try it on one >with no skirt - the 1-element flying Tesla turbine. Give it a little >counterspin before throwing. >> > >> >- R. >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] >> >Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:08 PM >> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent >> > >> > >> >Rick Monteverde wrote: >> > >> > " I bet that would work! Though simply spinning the disk would pull in >air over the surface due to dragging from the boundary layer (beta ether >again), so the added mechanical complexity of a blower isn't even >necessary. Yes, I think I'll call it the "Freely Rotating Intake Surface >Beta Ether Engine", or FRISBEE for short." >> > >> >Cool Rick. Too bad I didn't think of it. :-) >> > >> >OTOH if you spin just a disk without a skirt (inverted stock tanks have >> >a skirt) it will be symmetrical and cancel. >> > >> >Got a pie tin, mini motor and a digital scale? >> > >> >A long time ago before Frisbees, we used to toss the metal caps off >asphalt roofing >> >rolls impressive distances. But our dog knew better than catching them. >> > >> >Fred >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 14:09:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HM9Gk7026234; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:09:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HM9EQh026204; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:09:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:09:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <3F91B987-D7B9-4078-8676-80534262A39B@mtaonline.net> References: <20060117171107.77654.qmail@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3F91B987-D7B9-4078-8676-80534262A39B@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0566AE51-9D89-406C-9C16-DD461E4B8668@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:06:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <9QNe1.A.UZG.JsWzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 17, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > > The original article seems to leave out about 54 percent, which is > not even close. The above was supposed to say 45 percent. > > Here is the quote again: > >> >> One challenge for organic solar cells has been the efficient >> capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is comprised of >> photons (particles of light) that are delivered across a spectrum >> that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, the visible >> spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange >> and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The amount of incoming >> photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is about 4, 5 and >> 45 percent, respectively. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 14:33:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HMU4Ea005475; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:32:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HMKBgd032648; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:20:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060117221954318.4D9829400088@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060117221955.009a9ae0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:19:55 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > .... the task of undertaking one of the seven > corporal works of mercy. ;-) CORRECTION 8-( Since I don't suppose any Vorts are especially hungry, thirsty, naked, harbourless, sick, captive or dead, the above sentence should have read:- .... the task of undertaking one of the seven spiritual works of mercy. ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 14:47:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HMkpYT013442; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:46:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HMkmj5013416; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:46:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:46:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:46:39 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338878.ece Environment in crisis: 'We are past the point of no return' Thirty years ago, the scientist James Lovelock worked out that the Earth possessed a planetary-scale control system which kept the environment fit for life. He called it Gaia, and the theory has become widely accepted. Now, he believes mankind's abuse of the environment is making that mechanism work against us. His astonishing conclusion - that climate change is already insoluble, and life on Earth will never be the same again. By Michael McCarthy Environment Editor Published: 16 January 2006 The world has already passed the point of no return for climate change, and civilisation as we know it is now unlikely to survive, according to James Lovelock, the scientist and green guru who conceived the idea of Gaia - the Earth which keeps itself fit for life. The Lovelock article: http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article338830.ece and why: http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338879.ece "So long and thanks for all the fish!" ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 14:57:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HMvRxc019700; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:57:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HMvNRd019656; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:57:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:57:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,377,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1871068866:sNHT18874394" Message-ID: <24161614.1137538631516.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:57:11 -0800 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yale Daily News prints letters by Storms, Kelves Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <7eiwt.A.5yE.SZXzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Sez: > Whoa there. Let us get our referents untangled. Kevles is > "she" and Storms is "Dr. Storms." (This reminds me of a > Japanese sentence with no subject or pronouns, which makes > it difficult to say who did what to whom, which -- I suppose, > come to think of it -- would be handy for describing an > orgy, but let's drop that train of thought before it even > leaves the station.) I realized my mistake of confusing her gender after I had hit the send key. Apologies to Dr. Storms as well. I knew the sentence didn't look "right" when I wrote it. >>Perhaps it is time to remind Kevles, once again, of these >>inaccuracies, or otherwise demand that he back up these two claims >>that he appears to adamantly support. > I have reminded her several times in no uncertain terms. I > copied my letters to the president of the university and to > her department chair. The prez fobbed me off. There is no > chance these people will reconsider. > > - Jed I'm sure they consider you nothing more than an irritation, and would you please go away and stop interfering with the care and feeding of their mutual admiration society. As the old saying goes: Pick your battles wisely. Regards, Mr. Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 15:13:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HNCYef029151; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:12:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HNCQ4v029025; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:12:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <97C964C5-E889-4844-A689-540DBD928793@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:10:03 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not to worry. There is a last resort escape route: Maybe smoke from all the global warming forest fires resulting from desertification will hold things off a bit. Looks like Iran has opted for nuclear war, so maybe a bit of nuclear winter will slow things down a bit. On Jan 17, 2006, at 1:46 PM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338878.ece > > Environment in crisis: 'We are past the point of no return' > > > http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article338830.ece > > and why: > > http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338879.ece > > "So long and thanks for all the fish!" Fish? Archaic fish? 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 15:36:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HM0k9x021980; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:03:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HLbQ25009281; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:37:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:37:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060117162921.0348b3f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:36:48 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Yale Daily News prints letters by Storms, Kelves In-Reply-To: <22011245.1137518889112.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> References: <22011245.1137518889112.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >I'm sure Kevles remains convinced of his vindication. . . . going >on the offense in suggesting that Mr. Storms seems to have "misread" >his Washington Post article. Whoa there. Let us get our referents untangled. Kevles is "she" and Storms is "Dr. Storms." (This reminds me of a Japanese sentence with no subject or pronouns, which makes it difficult to say who did what to whom, which -- I suppose, come to think of it -- would be handy for describing an orgy, but let's drop that train of thought before it even leaves the station.) >Perhaps it is time to remind Kevles, once again, of these >inaccuracies, or otherwise demand that he back up these two claims >that he appears to adamantly support. I have reminded her several times in no uncertain terms. I copied my letters to the president of the university and to her department chair. The prez fobbed me off. There is no chance these people will reconsider. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 16:05:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0HN0B3S021254; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:03:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0HMhtml011996; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060117224141811.C62AAB80008F@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060117224143.00bac458@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:41:43 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dash Files for LENR Patent Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 pm 17/01/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Do you have any references for a search, Frank? > >Fred I presume you mean about the way they designed the Bf 109. 'Fraid not. It's one of those things that has stuck in my memory from colloquia in the Structural Engineering Division. Probably still there cos it's coupled with my close encounter of the first kind - the Jerries didn't actually shoot at me. That would have been a close encounter of the second kind like when a bomb demolished two houses in the next street and a damned great piece of granite kerbstone buried itself 6 feet down in our back garden. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 16:30:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I0U8n6006856; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:30:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I0U52w006847; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:30:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:25:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <-WtHJ.A.3qB.NwYzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few thoughts occur to me on this. 1. I have heard many ultraenvironmentalists sending out this line of reasoning over the years, and have heard them say that they are absolutely sure we are in serious trouble, and that it is all man's fault. Many say they would be their life on it, 100% certainty. Why then, does no one ever want to take me up on my wager? The Wager: A. If it turns out that we are truly doomed from what we have been/are doing re: CO2 emissions, then the ultraenvironmentalists win the wager, and we all die by default. B. If it turns out that we are not doomed, that the whole situation was overblown and used as a nice moneymaker and powergatherer by some, and that the warming (if any in the long run) does not cause serious damage at all, or worse, we end up in an ice age that might have been technologically preventable, then those who were the most vocal and public sources of restrictions on technological societies and industrialization must report for termination within 1 year's time. This will in turn, help them win one point: with less mouths to feed, we will have more to go around to those who are left. Quite logical I think. C. If it turns out that we are in big trouble, but stave it off by massive cutbacks on XYZ, then we all win by default. Am I really being serious? No. But it is telling that people who are so certain, will not take up the wager. Then, by definition, they must not have been completely certain. 2. CO2 is the big target at the moment. When we switch to hydrogen-fired cars, how long do you bet it will take before there is a big "green" push to limit H2O vapor emissions? 3. Horace mentioned Iran and possible nuclear war. As an American, I propose that if Iran develops nuclear weapons, that we do not intervene, and that we allow them to develop the warheads themselves, the delivery systems, and ultimately to use them against whoever they wish. Then after someone gets a second sunrise, we can safely say "Yes, it indeed appears that Iran had Weapons of Mass Destruction." 4. WILL WORK FOR LAND/PRESSURE DOME ON MOON. Or Mars. Even Titan would be pretty nice. 5. Why aren't the ultraenvironmentalists pushing for LENR/CANR like mad? 6. I do not trust "big oil", nor do I trust "big green". Both are liars, and will do anything to get their respective ways. Mark my words, things are not as they seem. 7. And no, before it is suggested, I am neither Republican, nor do I like Bush. I am independant, vote for who I think is the least detrimental, and hope for the day when we really do all live together in peace. All the best, --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 16:45:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I0j9vR014468; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:45:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I0ix4e014375; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:44:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:44:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <059a01c61bc8$264e4270$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:43:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We're about to experience a natural feed back loop that will accelerate concentrations of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. A natural feed back loop is basically when a natural process reaches a critical threshold and feeds on itself and spins out of control. Kind of like when watching a summertime shower explode into a massive thunderstorm, you are witnessing a natural feed back loop in which the atmosphere starts feeding on available heat and moisture and forms clouds, which causes more heat and moisture to be drawn into the clouds, causing them to grow and draw in even more heat and moisture, causing them to eventually explode into what we all know as a violent summertime thunderstorm. There are indications that CO2 levels are also experiencing a natural feed back loop. As global warming defrosts the permafrost and melts the glaciers they release CO2 that has bound up in these formations for millions of years, thus increasing CO2 levels and causing more heating and more subsequent melting of permafrost and glaciers, thus releasing even more CO2, causing more global warming, etc. CO2 levels are increasing more rapidly in recent years. We might be on the cusp of an exponential increase in CO2 levels and subsequently much higher global temperatures. Which will, by the way, cause even more and stronger thunderstorms and hurricanes. Not only has the past year been extraordinary for its super hurricanes, but thunderstorm and tornado activity has been unusually frequent and severe as well. This past November 2005 was more like a Spring month for tornados in the Mid West and Southern U.S. with record numbers of tornados. Global Warming Has Arrived. Get used to it and sell any property that you own in flood prone areas. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC >A few thoughts occur to me on this. > > 1. I have heard many ultraenvironmentalists sending out this line of > reasoning over the years, and have heard them say that they are absolutely > sure we are in serious trouble, and that it is all man's fault. Many say > they would be their life on it, 100% certainty. Why then, does no one ever > want to take me up on my wager? > > The Wager: > > A. If it turns out that we are truly doomed from what we have been/are > doing > re: CO2 emissions, then the ultraenvironmentalists win the wager, and we > all > die by default. > > B. If it turns out that we are not doomed, that the whole situation was > overblown and used as a nice moneymaker and powergatherer by some, and > that > the warming (if any in the long run) does not cause serious damage at all, > or worse, we end up in an ice age that might have been technologically > preventable, then those who were the most vocal and public sources of > restrictions on technological societies and industrialization must report > for termination within 1 year's time. This will in turn, help them win one > point: with less mouths to feed, we will have more to go around to those > who > are left. Quite logical I think. > > C. If it turns out that we are in big trouble, but stave it off by massive > cutbacks on XYZ, then we all win by default. > > Am I really being serious? No. But it is telling that people who are so > certain, will not take up the wager. Then, by definition, they must not > have > been completely certain. > > 2. CO2 is the big target at the moment. When we switch to hydrogen-fired > cars, how long do you bet it will take before there is a big "green" push > to > limit H2O vapor emissions? > > 3. Horace mentioned Iran and possible nuclear war. As an American, I > propose > that if Iran develops nuclear weapons, that we do not intervene, and that > we > allow them to develop the warheads themselves, the delivery systems, and > ultimately to use them against whoever they wish. Then after someone gets > a > second sunrise, we can safely say "Yes, it indeed appears that Iran had > Weapons of Mass Destruction." > > 4. WILL WORK FOR LAND/PRESSURE DOME ON MOON. Or Mars. Even Titan would be > pretty nice. > > 5. Why aren't the ultraenvironmentalists pushing for LENR/CANR like mad? > > 6. I do not trust "big oil", nor do I trust "big green". Both are liars, > and > will do anything to get their respective ways. Mark my words, things are > not > as they seem. > > 7. And no, before it is suggested, I am neither Republican, nor do I like > Bush. I am independant, vote for who I think is the least detrimental, and > hope for the day when we really do all live together in peace. > > All the best, > --Kyle > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 17:45:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I1iiuG012373; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:44:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I1iglR012351; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:44:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:44:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:44:32 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E9E7DCD463B9-1894-CE4C@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Mcallister A. If it turns out that we are truly doomed from what we have been/are doing re: CO2 emissions, then the ultraenvironmentalists win the wager, and we all die by default. <><><><><><><><> So far, it's just the polar bears. Never liked 'em anyway. Did you know that their fur is really translucent? ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 18:12:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I2C1xC024585; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:12:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I1fJ6L010505; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:41:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:41:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:41:01 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E9E75F2B3036-1894-CE38@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <97C964C5-E889-4844-A689-540DBD928793@mtaonline.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <97C964C5-E889-4844-A689-540DBD928793@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner Not to worry. There is a last resort escape route: Maybe smoke from all the global warming forest fires resulting from desertification will hold things off a bit. Looks like Iran has opted for nuclear war, so maybe a bit of nuclear winter will slow things down a bit. <><><><><><><> I love it, Horace. I bet you have an excellent lemonade recipe! Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 18:12:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I2C1xE024585; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:12:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I1uUC6017462; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:56:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:56:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:51:12 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E9E8CB85E5EB-1894-CE72@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.68 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2g77_B.A.sQE.MBazDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338878.ece Environment in crisis: 'We are past the point of no return' Thirty years ago, the scientist James Lovelock worked out that the Earth possessed a planetary-scale control system which kept the environment fit for life. He called it Gaia, and the theory has become widely accepted. Now, he believes mankind's abuse of the environment is making that mechanism work against us. His astonishing conclusion - that climate change is already insoluble, and life on Earth will never be the same again. <><><><><><><><> For those who did not read any of this, he's selling a book, er, too. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 19:29:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I3TE7L030813; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:29:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I3TBeE030792; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:29:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:29:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=PqX7Ew+GWyjKEKtuObuXtQRssWKRbCfvXk/Z2lo85/QSJawnlhVczvGkVV7qnCjeiENaZkSm5FFs85d4jBvEXEmwqbmWKlhg3zdlEHvF1x2SmzMyo2I1aiadxosxltWuLiHjISCFeiMccJF8yb0Jbd/FqOu2PI6AvusP/ciMQvc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:10:56 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: hey bill, on the incadescent bacteria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13018_2314224.1137535856006" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ------=_Part_13018_2314224.1137535856006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline just read that update to amasci. sudden thought. the "circle of fire" suddenly looks very much like a toadstool ring, or any other ring formed from a single spore or seed source. makes me wonder, is there an old dead volcano in the center that blew open = a while ago... -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_13018_2314224.1137535856006 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
just read that update to amasci.  sudden thought.  the "= ;circle of fire"  suddenly looks very much like a toadstool ring,= or any other ring formed from a single spore or seed source. 
 
makes me wonder, is there an old dead volcano in the center that blew = open a while ago...

--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I = detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you= to continue to write"  Voltaire=20
------=_Part_13018_2314224.1137535856006-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 20:04:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I43tLa015909; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:03:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I43hpH015829; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:03:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:03:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CDBE18.6080503@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:03:36 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Paper: How do you measure its resistivity? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Well, now, that subject was probably pretty confusing; I'm not writing a paper. Rather, what I'm asking is how you would go about measuring the resistivity of _paper_. After some static experiments mentioned here earlier it seemed like it might very well be low enough to measure. I figured I'd measure the resistance of a few pieces cut to various sizes and shapes and from that I could get the resistivity. So, I set out to measure the resistance of a sheet of inkjet printer paper. Taking the naive approach, I put the paper in series with a high resistor -- I tried 1M and 10M -- and fed the voltage on the resistor to an op-amp, amplified it 100 or 1000 times (tried both), and looked at the result with a VOM. Circuit, such as it was, is here: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/measure-high-resist.jpg First, of course, I found that the circuit seemed to find a local radio station pretty interesting, and some of that appeared to persist even after I added the bypass cap shown (wasn't there initially). Next I found that the offset on the opamp was a lot larger than I expected once I'd boosted it 1000x, and that's what the trim pot is doing there. But after all was said and done, I found that _I_ look like a dead short to this rig (i.e., it works, in a crude sense), and squeezing the vinyl(?) covers on the aligator clips I'm using, one clip in each hand, gets a noticeable reading as well. (My ancient oscilloscope's packed away in the attic at the moment so I can't rule out the posibility that I'm just being a big fat antenna when I do that, and my bypass cap is too small...) But paper still seems to look like an open circuit: no apparent reading at all. Total flop. So, how should one go about measuring something like this? Is the resistivity just too high to measure with any approach like this; must one do something with arcane vacuum tubes in a Faraday cage instead? Or does the resistivity perhaps vary wildly depending on the voltage, descending to some number of gigohms at high volts but 'way higher with just 9 volts across it? Or was my attempt just so rankly incompetent that I'd be lucky to get the resistance of a bowl of water with it...? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 21:48:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I5mZlC029223; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:48:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I5mW0j029208; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:48:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:48:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c61bf2$40879220$fb239d04@oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E9E8CB85E5EB-1894-CE72@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:44:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, 17 January, 2006 08:51 PM Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC > For those who did not read any of this, he's selling a book, er, too. > Yes, that sort of was disturbing to me. If I had personally found conclusive proof that the world as we know it was doomed within a short period of time, as he seems to be claiming, I wouldn't sell it; I would give it away, publish it free for download everywhere. I do notice also that the albedo argument has returned: without polar ice reflecting sunlight back into space, the darker arctic water will get hotter. But....this means more water vapor. Clouds, anyone? This is not the end of the world. It is not going to kill everything off. We are here, aren't we? K-T was a damn sight more catastrophic than our output of CO2. That didn't kill everything. And unlike the dinosaurs, we are much smarter and have technology to boot. Nevertheless, I want us to develop and use clean, renewable energy sources. They will be cheaper for the average consumer in the long run anyways. Not to mention we will then no longer be indirectly funding terrorist regimes. Not to worry anyways, we can always order a new Earth from Magrathea if necessary. But please, no mice this time. :) --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 22:03:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I63Lm3002872; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:03:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I61gKe001924; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:01:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:01:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Blue Anode Glow Observations X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:01:32 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I haven't messed with this for a while, so I just stuck a couple of aluminum strips cut from a pie plate into a drinking glass full of saturated borax solution. The aluminum strips were hooked in series with a 65 watt light bulb plugged into 120 volts AC. The light bulb turned on at full brightness, but dimmed to no light at all within two minutes. The aluminum strips gave off their characteristic blue glow, which at this voltage requires almost total darkness to see. Tiny sparks are seen at random on the surface of the aluminum strips, especially where they enter the borax solution and at their edges. If you move your eyes back and forth rapidly, you can see that typical 60Hz flicker, meaning that that the glow doesn't continue between cycles. It would be interesting to find out just how fast the glow turns on. I had formed the idea, after seeing the hollow columnar structure Bill provided a link to, that a plasma must be forming within the aluminum oxide cells. This doesn't seem to be the case. I looked at one of the strips with a diffraction grating and was surprised to see a continuous spectrum, not line spectra indicating ionization. Further, the glow really isn't blue, it's white. It's just that it's so dim that we tend to see it as blue or blue-green. A full continuous spectrum from red to violet is visible, although it doesn't seem to be as bright on the red end. I was particularly surprised not to see some evidence of the sodium double D lines, which usually overwhelm the spectra of other elements, since borax is sodium tetraborate. The sodium line was only occasionally visible in some, but not all of the random sparks. I also occasionally saw what I took to be a hydrogen red line in the sparks. I'm fresh out of fluorescent dyes, so I just opened up a yellow fluorescent Hi-liter pen and soaked it in the borax solution. This worked well in showing that there is apparently some UV being emitted. I have a UV spectromenter good to 190nm, but it's made for very high power and no reading could be had at all. Since the voltage gradient across the aluminum oxide semi- conductor layer must be tremendous, I'm wondering if this isn't just high temperature incandescence. The total heat would be low, but the local temperature might be very high. I plan to do these same tests at higher voltage and with DC. Any thoughts on this, Horace? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 22:49:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I635tD002740; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I62mWv002592; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:02:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:02:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <001501c61bf2$40879220$fb239d04@oemcomputer> References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E9E8CB85E5EB-1894-CE72@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> <001501c61bf2$40879220$fb239d04@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:00:22 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Jan 17, 2006, at 8:44 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > > I do notice also that the albedo argument has returned: without > polar ice > reflecting sunlight back into space, the darker arctic water will get > hotter. But....this means more water vapor. Clouds, anyone? Low altitude clouds improve albedo, which is good in this case. High altitude water is very bad, though, and trumps low altitude clouds. Google: venus greenhouse water vapor From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 22:51:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I6pREF005530; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:51:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I6pLZW005479; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:51:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:51:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blue Anode Glow Observations In-Reply-To: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: References: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Michael Foster wrote: > Since the voltage gradient across the aluminum oxide semi- > conductor layer must be tremendous, I'm wondering if this > isn't just high temperature incandescence. The total heat > would be low, but the local temperature might be very high. Anyone have access to an SEM? I wonder what the structure actually looks like. That SEM photo at http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/images/alumin1.jpg http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/aluminum.htm ... is showing how "anodized" aluminum is able to retain colorants. First you form the micro-columnar pore structure in H2SO4 at low voltage, then you soak it in liquid dye, then you make it permanent by plugging the little pores. If it's incandescent, the "glow regime" might do some damage, or perhaps alter the structure to create sharp points and field emission, or generate molten aluminum nano-droplets, etc? Here's another toy to try: transparent electrodes, indium tin oxide (ITO) coating on plastic, $20 per square foot and up http://www.berk.com/~lessemf/plastic.html "Clear Shield" RF blocker http://www.delta-technologies.com/Products.asp?C=14 ITO on PET If the glowing aluminum is up against a transparent electrode with just a bit of electrolyte between, the whole thing could be viewed on a microscope stage. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 23:18:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I7IE1Z018743; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I7IBIv018708; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: hey bill, on the incadescent bacteria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, leaking pen wrote: > just read that update to amasci. sudden thought. the "circle of fire" > suddenly looks very much like a toadstool ring, or any other ring formed > from a single spore or seed source. > > makes me wonder, is there an old dead volcano in the center that blew open a > while ago... Lol. If volcanos are alive, and they're analogous to exploding puffballs which lift the spores high enough that they spread to other planets... then just mix in some Gaia. What kind of planetary surface environment would "magma-tolerant" hyperthermophile bacteria tend to create? :) I note that volcanoes generated the oceans and the original pre-chlorophyll atmosphere. Would this be an unimportant side effect as far as the deep crust organisms were concerned? Or would "ocean generating" bacteria have benefits which let them panspermially infect more of the galaxy than other kinds? Hawaiian volcanoes seem to have a different chemistry, and don't create outgassing and ash clouds like most others. Why? >From the "Gaia" standpoint, all this stuff isn't totally whacked out. After all... HOW DID THE GAIA EFFECT ARISE? For evolution to produce it, there'd have to be lots of failed planets which didn't develop the global homeostasis bacteria mutuation. And there'd have to be a mechanism where the "successful" planets were able to spread their genome to uninfected worlds, out-competing the non-Gaia infections and the "less fit" infections. Or perhaps it's (gah!) intelligent design, and Earth is infected with a terraforming organism whose metabolic heat was designed to produce Plate Tekonics, volcanos, oceans, atmospheres. The moon Io has low-temp volcanoes. And didn't Neptune prove to have some kind of cryo-volcanoes? Why? Why "volcanoes?" What makes the phenomenon common? (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 17 23:46:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0I7jx6H031481; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:46:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0I7jtkf031422; Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:45:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:45:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex Subject: Re: Paper: How do you measure its resistivity? In-Reply-To: <43CDBE18.6080503@pobox.com> Message-ID: References: <43CDBE18.6080503@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Well, now, that subject was probably pretty confusing; I'm not writing a > paper. Rather, what I'm asking is how you would go about measuring the > resistivity of _paper_. For a start, I think your R1 needs to be more like 1000 meg or 10,000. Or just get rid of R1 entirely and see how fast the paper's leakage current can charge up the capacitor that's connected to the + input. (You're using a FET op amp, right? TL072? ) Google shows Farnell, OhmCraft, Ohmite. Digikey has 5,000 meg "metal oxide film" resistors. Farnell has 50,000 meg "thick film" chip resistors. And first you have to make contact with the paper. Little sharp things aren't going to do it. I suggest cutting a square of paper and painting two opposite edges with conductive epoxy or even india ink, then connect the conductive stripes to your circuit. If dry paper is maybe 10^11, 100 gigaohms, then a 10V power supply will give 10 picoamps current through the paper. Just measure the 10 picoamps! :) Conductivity of paper varies wildly with humidity, so if the current is too low to measure, then just breathe hot breath on the paper for awhile to increase the current. Applying 1000V DC would also give more current than 10V. You also could use a rectangular sample with the long edges having the conductive stripes. For example, a 10" x 1" strip with long conductive edges will have 10x more current than a square sample. For consideration: http://amasci.com/emotor/nanoamp.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 05:28:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IC0gkp027435; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:04:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IBbsKf022149; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:37:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004101c61c23$935aeac0$0401a8c0@user> From: "Noel D. 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------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C61C23.9138F520-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 05:31:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IC0gkr027435; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IBtite026112; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:41:57 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >A few thoughts occur to me on this. > >1. I have heard many ultraenvironmentalists sending out this line of If you want to sell books, the best bet is to tell people what they want to hear. > >The Wager: > >A. If it turns out that we are truly doomed from what we have been/are doing >re: CO2 emissions, then the ultraenvironmentalists win the wager, and we all >die by default. In the long term, we will all be dead, so I guess they win that one by default. > >B. If it turns out that we are not doomed, that the whole situation was >overblown and used as a nice moneymaker and powergatherer by some, and that Unfortunately, what the powergathers have in mind the termination of everyone else. > >C. If it turns out that we are in big trouble, but stave it off by massive >cutbacks on XYZ, then we all win by default. Not so fast bucko, see above. > >2. CO2 is the big target at the moment. When we switch to hydrogen-fired >cars, how long do you bet it will take before there is a big "green" push to >limit H2O vapor emissions? Their next strategy will be to limit manmade thermo emissions. I just heard that manmade gas emissions account for only two percent of the total. > >3. Horace mentioned Iran and possible nuclear war. As an American, I propose >that if Iran develops nuclear weapons, that we do not intervene, and that we The subject of President Adidajob, (rimes with total nut job), has been a frequent topic of discussion on Salem Radio. Their pocessing nuclear weapons isn't the problem, it's their death wish. I suppose that a few dozen nuclear explosions would cool down the atmosphere. > >4. WILL WORK FOR LAND/PRESSURE DOME ON MOON. Or Mars. Even Titan would be >pretty nice. This morning's interviewee on C to C AM Willian Henry, was proposing nuclear powered water (steam) rockets made of carbon fiber tubes 30' X 200'. Placed in orbit, they could be assembled into long strings (like baloney) in space. His proposal was that a remnant of humanity could survive the coming catastrophe, meteoric bombardment. Since it is A; impossible to grow food in space, and B; impossible for a mature human to survive their either, let alone for a woman to gestate a child in that environment, and C; I think that Mr. Henry, whose title is investigative mythologist, is beyond specious, I turned it off. > >5. Why aren't the ultraenvironmentalists pushing for LENR/CANR like mad? Their agenda is anti -technology > >6. I do not trust "big oil", nor do I trust "big green". Both are liars, and >will do anything to get their respective ways. Mark my words, things are not >as they seem. Name two things that are green on the outside, and red on the inside, A a watermelon B environmentalists > >7. And no, before it is suggested, I am neither Republican, nor do I like >Bush. I am independant, vote for who I think is the least detrimental, and >hope for the day when we really do all live together in peace. In those days they shall say peace, peace, and there is no peace. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 08:17:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IEKsqV006612; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:20:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IEKo7m006572; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:20:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:20:30 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC In-Reply-To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <72ozkB.A.kmB.B7kzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>2. CO2 is the big target at the moment. When we switch to hydrogen-fired >>cars, how long do you bet it will take before there is a big "green" push to >>limit H2O vapor emissions? This suggestion (made by someone else) is ridiculous. It is a comic book caricature of environmentalism. Look around you when you will see any number of severe environmental crises: erosion, air pollution, overuse of paving, invasive species, litter and filth. Everywhere you look in every country environmental degradation is inescapable. Given all these challenges, why would anyone worry about H2O vapor? We environmentalists are not fools, and we are not irresponsible or otherworldly >Their next strategy will be to limit manmade thermo emissions. I >just heard that manmade gas emissions account for only two percent >of the total. Where did you hear this? It seems unlikely, because in the first world, fossil fuel energy generation produces twice as much carbon dioxide as plant growth absorbs. I suggest you stop spreading rumors about environmentalism, and try to stick to critiquing actual statements made by real environmentalists, rather than a strawman version. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 09:56:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IH3Ro9026441; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:03:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IH3LRq026383; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:03:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:03:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:39:03 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c61c4d$b1cbc9a0$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003701c61b7e$82db30b0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craftsman is just a private label. They are not an OEM. All 2-stokes are regulated by the EPA... You want to know who really makes it, read the emissions label on the engine. My bet is it isn't 'down-home-Amurcan' at all. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:56 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Airborne Backpack Blower [snip] what is more down-home-Amurcan than Craftsman ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 10:06:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IGQDaJ007991; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:26:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IGQAtY007952; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:26:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:26:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> References: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <68C0EBE8-B4F6-4D43-B46F-58D3217E9C5D@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Blue Anode Glow Observations Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:53:51 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Jan 17, 2006, at 9:01 PM, Michael Foster wrote: > > I haven't messed with this for a while, so I just stuck > a couple of aluminum strips cut from a pie plate into > a drinking glass full of saturated borax solution. What was the source of the borax? > The > aluminum strips were hooked in series with a 65 watt > light bulb plugged into 120 volts AC. > > The light bulb turned on at full brightness, but dimmed > to no light at all within two minutes. The aluminum strips > gave off their characteristic blue glow, which at this > voltage requires almost total darkness to see. Tiny sparks > are seen at random on the surface of the aluminum strips, > especially where they enter the borax solution and at > their edges. This is the electrospark regime. It actually suppresses the anode glow regime by draining current. It also eats up anodes very fast, at least foil ones. You want to avoid the sparks by reducing voltage until the anode is conditioned to take that voltage without penetration of the anode film. > > If you move your eyes back and forth rapidly, you can see > that typical 60Hz flicker, meaning that that the glow > doesn't continue between cycles. The glow is turned off when an electrode is acting as a cathode. It turns on when the voltage passes a critical positive threshold. I think at that threshold electrons can tunnel through or at least into the anode film, and the gradient is sufficient to ionize water. The electrons are stripped from the OH-, thus creating an ion free zone, the interphase. The cations are repelled from the interphase. Once that happens ionization of neutral molecules is required to conduct major current. Here are the prospects. Molecule Energy (eV) -------- --------- H 13.6 H2 15.4 OH 13.0 H2O 12.6 HO2 11.4 H2O2 10.5 Table 1 - Molecular Ionization Potentials in Gas I think a field gradient of about 12.6 - 13 volts per 1-2 angstroms will do the job. A couple hundred volts across the anode interphase is plenty to get a 10 to 20 molecule thick interphase where protons freed at the anode surface can zip through the interphase creating an ion-liquid mix. > It would be interesting > to find out just how fast the glow turns on. Yes, good to quantify it, though I think if you measure it you will find out the rise time is a function of cell electrodynamics, not the start-up time for the glow. The cell has a lot of capacitance, so things are slowed down by that. The glow turns on very fast once the critical voltage is passed in the AC cycle. The critical voltage depends on the conditioning of the electrode and what is in the electrolyte. As documented earlier, I think the critical voltage is that voltage at which water or OH at the face of the anode, probably at the tip of a dendrite, can be ionized. This is spelled out in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf > > I had formed the idea, after seeing the hollow columnar > structure Bill provided a link to, What's this all about? Bill Beaty? What columnar structure? > that a plasma must be > forming within the aluminum oxide cells. This doesn't seem > to be the case. It depends on just what you call a plasma. I think there is a lot of ionized stuff in the 10-20 nm or thicker interphase next to the anode. It doesn't last long though once the proton passes! > I looked at one of the strips with a > diffraction grating and was surprised to see a continuous > spectrum, not line spectra indicating ionization. This could be indicitive of partial orbitals similar to those formed in metal hydrides under high fugacity. It is a possible indication of atomic expansion at work. Then again we all see what we would like to see, and I have too active an imagination. 8^) More realistically, it is probably because you are in electrospark mode and thus may be seeing mostly spectra of the sparks, or arcs which would be characteristic of dark body radiation for their temperatures, and/or aluminum oxidation. Probably a lot of the latter if you are getting white. > Further, > the glow really isn't blue, it's white. Wow, you *are* running hot. You must be seeing aluminum oxidation. The reason it has been called "blue glow" is that I called it that in 1997 when I observed what I considered to be a turquoise version of it. I got tired of typing blue-green so unfortunately just dropped the green part. On the bright side, "Project Blue Glow" sounds a lot respectable and original than "Project Green Glow", don't you think? > It's just that it's > so dim that we tend to see it as blue or blue-green. Photos show it as blue-green, green or green-yellow too. I think it takes on an orange tint if the electrode has lots of very tiny arcs on its surface due to poor conditioning. I turned a nice green anode into an orange on just by pushing the current up briefly, and thus destroying the conditioning. See: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/OrangeGlow.pdf > A full > continuous spectrum from red to violet is visible, although > it doesn't seem to be as bright on the red end. That must be a high temperature to peak up on the blue end. Do you know your surface area and current? > > I was particularly surprised not to see some evidence of the > sodium double D lines, which usually overwhelm the spectra > of other elements, since borax is sodium tetraborate. Sodium is a cation. It should be pushed right on out of the interphase. > The > sodium line was only occasionally visible in some, but not > all of the random sparks. Sparks are different from the interphase. Their plasma can be expected to penetrate the interphase as well as the anode film. > I also occasionally saw what I > took to be a hydrogen red line in the sparks. > > I'm fresh out of fluorescent dyes, so I just opened up a > yellow fluorescent Hi-liter pen and soaked it in the borax > solution. This worked well in showing that there is apparently > some UV being emitted. I have a UV spectromenter good to > 190nm, but it's made for very high power and no reading could > be had at all. Water may be absorbing most of the UV lines. > > Since the voltage gradient across the aluminum oxide semi- > conductor layer must be tremendous, I'm wondering if this > isn't just high temperature incandescence. You probably have incandescence in the sparks or arks at the anode surface. It would be good to take a look at the spectrum for a well conditioned glow though. Another thing to consider is electron-hole annihilation. If the oxide or hydroxide film is a hole conductor, then electrons stipped from the electrolyte will produce photons upon annihilation. I don't think that is happening, but it is something to consider. > The total heat > would be low, but the local temperature might be very high. > > I plan to do these same tests at higher voltage and with DC. > Any thoughts on this, Horace? Yes. Condition the electrode. You need a variac or light dimmer to do that. It is done by increasing voltage slowly. I can post the basic method if you need it. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:07:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IIMe04003080; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:22:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IIMbZ2003039; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:22:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bdYuYh1uGRfByopr+UUIzWigEOdjlfM6A/8OjpLyl5H6wmUp3E7cri3X/566qcxD/GNdY6WaycLUAFVihzZbVLH/BJdw9MqrTYoAtheN7MSkN+opFp0ag7AnkWn1UH9Lg6kGw3k6f2k9m4y3WhOgtMJ7EdZKOO817xl1zdXYuMs= ; Message-ID: <20060118182230.7452.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000001c61c4d$b1cbc9a0$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Its probably a Briggs and Stratton out of Wisconsin. And Craftsman IS an OEM, just not for the engine. --- John Steck wrote: > Craftsman is just a private label. They are not an > OEM. All 2-stokes are > regulated by the EPA... You want to know who really > makes it, read the > emissions label on the engine. My bet is it isn't > 'down-home-Amurcan' at > all. > > -john > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:56 AM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Airborne Backpack Blower > > [snip] what is more down-home-Amurcan than Craftsman > ? > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:55:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUj3006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IJOX40001425; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:24:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:24:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CE95DF.7020503@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:24:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paper: How do you measure its resistivity? References: <43CDBE18.6080503@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [Another message that never came back. Does the Vortex server hate me? Does my SMTP server have bad breath, or what? Anyway it's been 3 hours and I'm resending it; apologies if you already saw it.] Thanks much. William Beaty wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >>Well, now, that subject was probably pretty confusing; I'm not writing a >>paper. Rather, what I'm asking is how you would go about measuring the >>resistivity of _paper_. > > > For a start, I think your R1 needs to be more like 1000 meg or 10,000. I though 10 gig was the typical input impedance on the TL082 op amp but a current datasheet from National says 1 gig. Hmmm. > Or just get rid of R1 entirely and see how fast the paper's leakage > current can charge up the capacitor that's connected to the + input. > (You're using a FET op amp, right? TL072? ) TL082, jfet inputs. When I looked at my diagram again this morning (and added a missing wire in the picture whose lack made nonsense of part of it) I also realized I'd made a dumb mistake with the offset tweak, tho, as a result of which I'm down an order of magnitude from what I thought I was on the amplification -- the voltage divider's 1K and I'm feeding it into the op amp through a 100 ohm resistor and thinking the 100 ohms will do something, oops. And the time to charge that cap may be substantial, too. 100 pf, which is what I happened to pull out of the bin, is probably too big if the resistance I'm looking at is a lot bigger than 10 gig. > > Google shows Farnell, OhmCraft, Ohmite. Digikey has 5,000 meg "metal > oxide film" resistors. Farnell has 50,000 meg "thick film" chip > resistors. > > > And first you have to make contact with the paper. Little sharp things > aren't going to do it. Like alligator clips, yah... I had also tried wetting the contact area; that made no difference but even if it rendered a disk of paper around each clip completely conductive and made perfect contact with the clips, the border of the wet area was still pretty short. > I suggest cutting a square of paper and painting > two opposite edges with conductive epoxy or even india ink, then connect > the conductive stripes to your circuit. That sounds good. Maybe use a long, narrow strip, with opposite edges painted, and a narrow unpainted strip in up the middle. (Ah, I see you mentioned that farther down...) > > If dry paper is maybe 10^11, 100 gigaohms, then a 10V power supply > will give 10 picoamps current through the paper. Just measure the 10 > picoamps! :) > > Conductivity of paper varies wildly with humidity, so if the current is > too low to measure, then just breathe hot breath on the paper for awhile > to increase the current. > > Applying 1000V DC would also give more current than 10V. No doubt. :-) My home brew power supply tops out at 18 volts, or 24 volts unregulated. > You also could use a rectangular sample with the long edges having the > conductive stripes. For example, a 10" x 1" strip with long conductive > edges will have 10x more current than a square sample. > > For consideration: http://amasci.com/emotor/nanoamp.html Cool ideas! Coupling to the sky and the air seems likely to prove awkward, though. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:55:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUj7006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IGHj2D003890; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:17:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:17:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CE6A1D.80306@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:17:33 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paper: How do you measure its resistivity? References: <43CDBE18.6080503@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks much. William Beaty wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >>Well, now, that subject was probably pretty confusing; I'm not writing a >>paper. Rather, what I'm asking is how you would go about measuring the >>resistivity of _paper_. > > > For a start, I think your R1 needs to be more like 1000 meg or 10,000. I _think_ 10 gig is about the input impedance on the TL082 op amp but it's been a long time since I looked at its datasheet. > Or just get rid of R1 entirely and see how fast the paper's leakage > current can charge up the capacitor that's connected to the + input. > (You're using a FET op amp, right? TL072? ) Yeah, TL082 When I looked at the diagram again this morning (and added a missing wire in the picture whose lack made nonsense of part of it) I also realized I'd made a dumb mistake with the offset tweak, tho, as a result of which I'm down an order of magnitude from what I thought I was on the amplification -- the voltage divider's 1K and I'm feeding it into the op amp through a 100 ohm resistor and thinking the 100 ohms will do something, oops. And the time to charge that cap may be substantial, too. 100 pf, which is what I happened to pull out of the bin, is probably too big if the resistance I'm looking at is a lot bigger than 10 gig. > > Google shows Farnell, OhmCraft, Ohmite. Digikey has 5,000 meg "metal > oxide film" resistors. Farnell has 50,000 meg "thick film" chip > resistors. > > > And first you have to make contact with the paper. Little sharp things > aren't going to do it. Like alligator clips, yah... I had also tried wetting the contact area; that made no difference but even if it rendered a disk of paper around each clip completely conductive and made perfect contact with the clips, the border of the wet area was still pretty short. > I suggest cutting a square of paper and painting > two opposite edges with conductive epoxy or even india ink, then connect > the conductive stripes to your circuit. That sounds good. Maybe use a long, narrow strip, with opposite edges painted, and a narrow unpainted strip in up the middle. (Ah, I see you mentioned that farther down...) > > If dry paper is maybe 10^11, 100 gigaohms, then a 10V power supply > will give 10 picoamps current through the paper. Just measure the 10 > picoamps! :) > > Conductivity of paper varies wildly with humidity, so if the current is > too low to measure, then just breathe hot breath on the paper for awhile > to increase the current. > > Applying 1000V DC would also give more current than 10V. No doubt. :-) My home brew power supply tops out at 18 volts, or 24 volts unregulated. > You also could use a rectangular sample with the long edges having the > conductive stripes. For example, a 10" x 1" strip with long conductive > edges will have 10x more current than a square sample. > > For consideration: http://amasci.com/emotor/nanoamp.html Cool ideas! Coupling to the sky and the air seems likely to prove awkward, though. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:56:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUjB006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IENoA5008177; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:23:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:23:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008a01c61c27$5b7081c0$0401a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <8C7E9E8CB85E5EB-1894-CE72@mblkn-m04.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:04:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: < >> He's about 86 and probably free from commercial pressures... Maybe he's just concerned about the future. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:56:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUj9006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IE3Ox8030360; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:03:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:03:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118090254.034036e0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118085712.033a13a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:03:00 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Rothwell letter published in Washington Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3ZMmq.A.QaH.rqkzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nothing to shout about, but see: http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060117-092150-8241r_page2.htm The editor made a mistake, adding an inappropriate "Mr." This is a right-wing newspaper but I am happy to be heard anywhere. This has not produced a noticeable increase in traffic at LENR-CANR as of 9:00 a.m. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 11:56:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUjD006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ICwbQA004880; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:58:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:58:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=327rRZuxleGRnMTwA/3aYJP2v87FDz9I2j0ApjvoSlgquE/gczaqCbugYCkyJS868msa+Be0XtT25U/5idc2YtYC7fvPg8CjT9BouAgt7q5HRbDz7Li+Caq+C6vydOYVeOECTKxIKvIqAaaffRymrTMFXk0Omcof0fttBoU0w8Q= ; Message-ID: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:51:47 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <059a01c61bc8$264e4270$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Coviello wrote: > > Global Warming Has Arrived. Get used to it and sell > any property that you > own in flood prone areas. > That reminds me of something I have wondered about. I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 13:07:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IL7MQV030785; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:07:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IL7Ird030739; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:07:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:07:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:04:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Rhong Dhong wrote: > That reminds me of something I have wondered about. > > I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. > If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will > the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, > and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? > > Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? Don't worry! There is plenty of elevation at your location. The water surface elevation drops a lot on the way to the sea. Niagra Falls alone is a good stopper. The places that may be wiped out without billions in intervention are low lying, like Vienna, Holland, Bangladesh, New Orleans and the entire gulf coast for that matter, and much of Florida. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 13:38:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ILcCKO011540; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:38:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ILc9N9011503; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:38:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:38:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118143602.03466400@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118143041.034572b8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:38:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Vortex constipated again? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been sending messages which have not come back to me. Vortex seems a jam up from time to time, especially this time of year. It must be all that holiday food. Anyway, here is a message I sent this morning -- Nothing to shout about, but see: http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060117-092150-8241r_page2.htm The editor made a mistake, adding an inappropriate "Mr." This is a right-wing newspaper but I am happy to be heard anywhere. This has not produced a noticeable increase in traffic at LENR-CANR as of 9:00 a.m. [Update: There is perhaps a little more traffic than usual at midday.] - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 14:56:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IMuSS9015148; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:56:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IMuQXC015134; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:56:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:56:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="3.99,381,1131339600"; d="scan'208"; a="1210269759:sNHT26302838" Message-ID: <3042474.1137613788186.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:49:48 -0800 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT: Delayed Posting issues Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From "Stephen A. Lawrence" > [Another message that never came back. Does the Vortex server hate me? > Does my SMTP server have bad breath, or what? Anyway it's been 3 > hours and I'm resending it; apologies if you already saw it.] > FWIW, I am facing similar frustrations using my Charter.net web based email service. This service used to work flawlessly. However, for the last several weeks it has bogged down considerably. Messages I post to Vortex-l can often be delayed for up to four or five hours. Meanwhile, another web email service I subscribe to doesn't seem to experience the same delays. There was a recent Charter "upgrade". I'm not impressed with the results. They added JAVA components to the editor. It's a disaster. I stay clear of it. My Charter.net account also messes up the font size of my vortex-l posts, making them practically impossible to read. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 15:19:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0INDZfq024227; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:19:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IKuibq025041; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:56:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:55:32 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c61c69$24d60f30$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20060118182230.7452.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: B&S is not in the 2-stroke game, they do 4-stroke. Craftsman outdoor power is a private label by MTD out of Ohio. MTD brands include Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-Man, Ryobi, Yard Machines, Bolens and Cub Cadet. Some assembly stateside but the bulk of the manufacturing and parts come from overseas. OEM = original equipment manufacturer... and no, Sears now private labels just about everything under the Craftsman name now. They are now a VAR = value added reseller. -john -----Original Message----- From: Merlyn [mailto:merlyn_3k@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower Its probably a Briggs and Stratton out of Wisconsin. And Craftsman IS an OEM, just not for the engine. --- John Steck wrote: > Craftsman is just a private label. They are not an > OEM. All 2-stokes are > regulated by the EPA... You want to know who really > makes it, read the > emissions label on the engine. My bet is it isn't 'down-home-Amurcan' > at all. > > -john > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:56 AM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Airborne Backpack Blower > > [snip] what is more down-home-Amurcan than Craftsman > ? > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:30:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ILAUZB032195; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:10:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ILAOSd032132; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:10:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c61c73$a0e4be00$6401a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:10:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <1inCgC.A.-1H._6qzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lake Ontario is 245 ft above sea level. No need to worry. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rhong Dhong" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC > > --- John Coviello wrote: > > > > > > Global Warming Has Arrived. Get used to it and sell > > any property that you > > own in flood prone areas. > > > > That reminds me of something I have wondered about. > > I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. > If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will > the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, > and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? > > Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:30:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0INpobm011648; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:51:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0INpk6P011609; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:51:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:51:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <065501c61c89$e6cba1c0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:50:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at broadbandsupport.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rhong Dhong" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC > > --- John Coviello wrote: > > >> >> Global Warming Has Arrived. Get used to it and sell >> any property that you >> own in flood prone areas. >> > > That reminds me of something I have wondered about. > > I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. > If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will > the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, > and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? > > Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? There is a BIG stopper protecting Lake Ontario and Toronto from global warming, called Niagra Falls. Water won't run up the falls backwards. I guess Toronto might be threatened if glacial melt and more rain caused by global warming raise the lake level, but I have no idea if a significant rise in Lake Ontario's level is possible from runoff. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:32:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0INDZfm024227; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:18:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IMvYTq015738; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:57:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:57:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CEBA37.4000602@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:59:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Rhong Dhong wrote: > >> That reminds me of something I have wondered about. >> >> I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. >> If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will >> the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, >> and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? >> >> Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? > > > Don't worry! There is plenty of elevation at your location. The water > surface elevation drops a lot on the way to the sea. Niagra Falls > alone is a good stopper. Yes but Niagara's _above_ Lake Ontario. The Falls is between Erie and Ontario. Ontario's not all that high, and since the St. Lawrence is, as I mentioned, said to flow backwards for much of its length during the incoming tide, the question isn't quite such a no-brainer as it might seem at first. > > The places that may be wiped out without billions in intervention are > low lying, like Vienna, Holland, Bangladesh, New Orleans and the entire > gulf coast for that matter, and much of Florida. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:33:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0INDZfo024227; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:19:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ILfrtK012999; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:41:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:41:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601182126.k0ILQxdE005329@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:26:59 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Rothwell letter published in Washington Times Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_973ef83f823b24da8b2128cc39b8af8b" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <2D68fC.A.DLD.gYrzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_973ef83f823b24da8b2128cc39b8af8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, it IS worth shouting about. Good letter, Jed. Enjoyed reading it. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Nothing to shout about, but see: > > http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060117-092150-8241r_page2.htm > > The editor made a mistake, adding an inappropriate "Mr." > > This is a right-wing newspaper but I am happy to be heard anywhere. > > This has not produced a noticeable increase in traffic at LENR-CANR > as of 9:00 a.m. > > - Jed > > > --=_973ef83f823b24da8b2128cc39b8af8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it IS worth shouting about.

Good letter, Jed.

Enjoyed reading it.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


>
> Nothing to shout about, but see:
>
> http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060117-092150-8241r_page2.htm
>
> The editor made a mistake, adding an inappropriate "Mr."
>
> This is a right-wing newspaper but I am happy to be heard anywhere.
>
> This has not produced a noticeable increase in traffic at LENR-CANR
> as of 9:00 a.m.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
--=_973ef83f823b24da8b2128cc39b8af8b-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:34:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IKJiOW000572; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:19:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IKJfCj000539; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:19:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:19:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CEA2CF.2080706@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:19:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4_G1jB.A.QI.bLqzDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > --- John Coviello wrote: > > > >>Global Warming Has Arrived. Get used to it and sell >>any property that you >>own in flood prone areas. >> > > > That reminds me of something I have wondered about. > > I live in a town on the South shore of Lake Ontario. > If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, will > the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence Seaway, > and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me out? > > Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? How far above sea level are you? The St. Lawrence will certainly rise -- much of it flows backwards part of the time as it is -- but I don't think the rise is likely to pass Montreal. I just pulled out my topo map of Laval and the lowest line I see is the 30 meter line. I don't think anyone expects more than ~ 10 meters of rise in the North Atlantic in the foreseeable future, so most likely even Montreal will remain above sea level. And surely Lake Ontario is higher than that, so I would not expect its level to rise at all. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:36:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ILqGG8017282; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:52:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ILq7KM017229; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:52:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:52:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=i8twXFSVKT8+QPZuYwlOXuKZk+MhPWSARaYjrQbJDgqD6vNdaDQ/KYt+MF1wpnibEMGjEmKIMaGKADNPKXba2qZd6l/AXbAN1SreNTo4sTsAvo3V0yATLBdCgEUmxV5gqdU68XZMnbtmRLBiYYzF6vXRuLLiutHEFKMTa4D3NV4= ; Message-ID: <20060118215155.1686.qmail@web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yup! A quick google says Lake Ontario sits at 243' above sea level. If we raise the water that much we are all in trouble. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Rhong Dhong wrote: > > > That reminds me of something I have wondered > about. > > > > I live in a town on the South shore of Lake > Ontario. > > If global warming results in a rise in sea-level, > will > > the raging waters travel down the St. Lawrence > Seaway, > > and raise the level of Lake Ontario and flood me > out? > > > > Or is there a stopper somewhere along the way? > > Don't worry! There is plenty of elevation at your > location. The > water surface elevation drops a lot on the way to > the sea. Niagra > Falls alone is a good stopper. > > The places that may be wiped out without billions in > intervention are > low lying, like Vienna, Holland, Bangladesh, New > Orleans and the > entire gulf coast for that matter, and much of > Florida. > > Horace Heffner > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:36:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IN2Kv2018587; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:02:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IN2Hl8018562; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:02:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:02:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c61c83$3636c390$72027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Rothwell letter Washington Times Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:02:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61C50.EB0E4460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <36ssHD.A.9hE.4jszDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61C50.EB0E4460 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002A_01C61C50.EB0E4460" ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C61C50.EB0E4460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Jed, Again, thanks for your stalwart position in monitoring and reporting = distortions in the news media. Of course, like the old lawyers once stated... Lie ! .. Me Lie?.. I = don't need to lie. I can tell you the truth nine different ways without = lying. I am trained to stretch the truth out of bounds without lying. So goes the writers response to you when you confront them with the = facts..Perhaps some of these writers flunked Yale law school. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C61C50.EB0E4460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Jed,
 
Again, thanks for your stalwart position in monitoring and = reporting=20 distortions in the news media.
 
Of course, like the old lawyers once stated... Lie ! .. Me Lie?.. I = don't=20 need to lie. I can tell you the truth nine different ways without lying. = I am=20 trained to stretch the truth out of bounds without lying.
 
So goes the writers response to you when you confront them = with the=20 facts..Perhaps some of these writers flunked Yale law school.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002A_01C61C50.EB0E4460-- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61C50.EB0E4460 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002801c61c83$359f6590$72027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61C50.EB0E4460-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:38:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0II4We5027353; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:04:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0II4SQI027298; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:04:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:04:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=S4ct29/BGvDOCVaxY4ibcFJOn49F8RGRCSmPSrD6cKkoY3pAr/FzH3HWSzkJs706LmhzjcqtiqZIWorbcTv7qRVZ75hCjZgGDgaSn/4xZlTs0YMAOoeQez7mwsnhXYaYvdV++zh6CFdPq2s+4hdWuuPNKH8oFhfQ55ZBDVymIaI= ; Message-ID: <20060118180417.86552.qmail@web32214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:04:17 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Nanoparticle PVs Translate IR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F91B987-D7B9-4078-8676-80534262A39B@mtaonline.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Huh... Well, the only other thing I can think is that perhaps he was referring to percentage of total insolation at Top of Atmosphere? Roughly 46% of solar radiation is absorbed by the atmosphere. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Oh, I just noticed the CRC table is located on page > 14-10, not 18-10 > as I noted. If you look at solar insolation factors > by frequency you > see it drops off to nothing at the tails. For > example, from 0 to 120 > nm there is only 0.00044 percent. From 120 to 140 > there is only > another .00009 percent. The table actually shows > that from 0 to > 100,000 nm the cumulative percent of solar > insolation is 99.999002 > percent. So basically we are quibbling about a few > thousandths of a > percent. Below is an updated table using your > range. > > Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: > > Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range > > 0 - 10 *** less than 0.00044 percent*** > 10 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV > 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible > 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR > 100000 - 1000000 *** less than .000998 percent *** > > Derived from page 14-10 of the 74th Edition of The > CRC Handbook. > > The original article seems to leave out about 54 > percent, which is > not even close. > > Here is the quote again: > > > > > One challenge for organic solar cells has been > the efficient > > capture and conversion of sunlight. Sunlight is > comprised of > > photons (particles of light) that are delivered > across a spectrum > > that includes invisible ultraviolet (UV) light, > the visible > > spectrum of colors -- violet, indigo, blue, green, > yellow, orange > > and red -- and the invisible IR spectrum. The > amount of incoming > > photons across the UV, visible and IR spectrums is > about 4, 5 and > > 45 percent, respectively. > > > > > On Jan 17, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Merlyn wrote: > > > According to my table > > > (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ems1.html) > > > > UV is only considered to be wavelengths between > 10nm > > and 400nm, and IR is wavelengths from 750nm to 1mm > > (1,000,000nm) > > > > So, your table does not include x- and gamma- > rays, > > nor the RF frequencies. > > > > --- Horace Heffner wrote: > > > >> > >> On Jan 16, 2006, at 6:16 AM, Merlyn wrote: > >> > >>> Doesn't have to total to 100% > >>> IR, Visible, and UV do not cover the entire EM > >>> spectrum, the sun puts out energy over a very > >> broad > >>> range of frequencies. > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sure it does. Look at the table again. > >> > >> > >> > >>>> Percent solar constant at aircraft altitude: > >>>> > >>>> Lambda (nm) Cum % % Range > >>>> > >>>> 0 - 400 8.725 8.725 UV > >>>> 400 - 700 46.879 38.154 Visible > >>>> 700 - 100000 99.999 53.120 IR > >>>> > >>>> Derived from page 18-10 of the 74th Edition of > >> The > >>>> CRC Handbook. > >>>> > >>>> Horace Heffner > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Merlyn > > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 16:39:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0IJVUj5006334; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:55:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0IHpQox019242; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:51:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:51:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001d01c61c57$c00121f0$72027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:51:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mark, Please give us an update on your comments regarding UMES. Where is the research being conducted? There were two flywheel companies ( US Flywheel Co.)on the west coast developing an ultrahigh speed mechanical unit some years back. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" To: Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: RE: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! > Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three years, > can be developed into UMES. These are Superconducting Magnetic Energy > Storage devices made with polymer, ambient temperature, Ultraconductors. > > A UMES should store twice what an equivalent flywheel can store, without > moving parts. Obviously, it will be very much lighter. > > Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and difficulty accepting a > very rapid charge, such as would be best for regenerative braking, UMES > units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those characteristics. > > Ultracapacitors are falling in price. See the latest Maxwell units. > Electron flywheels should offer them a bit of competition. Again, the > weight may be much less. Visualize a cylinder of Kevlar for strong > containment and binding, since rapid charge and discharge will produce > powerful mechanical movement tendencies. > > Mark > > > > >>From: "Jones Beene" >>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>To: "vortex" >>Subject: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" >>Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:04 -0800 >> >>Hybrid autos starting to get political? >> >>Used to be - everybody ganged up against GM, but now Toyota will soon be >>king of the hill, and the lines and alliances are being redrawn. Will >>uncle Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a home-grown US-produced >>"better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM ? >> >>"Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling >>two high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the >>annual Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the >>volume to promote rival clean-engine technologies." >> >>http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-6026076.html >> >>A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not going to please that many tree-huggers >>however. >> >>The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of gasoline-electric >>hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from Germany's >>DaimlerChrysler, which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries are a better >>overall solution. That stance, however, seems indefensible (OK stupid) IF >>far better batteries are in the offing. >> >>I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others >>are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic tactical >>error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. No VC investor in >>the world has been as successful, or as admired in financial circles from >>NY to London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner Perkins. They are simply the >>top dog. >> >>To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has >>been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he >>has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club event yesterday in >>Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech predictions: High on >>the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward" investment. He didn't >>mention it by name, but I will - EEStor. More on that later. >> >>Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline >>engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they now account >>for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are claimed to be more >>easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is questionable. Many of >>the historical negatives of diesels - such as noise and cold-starts have >>been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper - whereas here, >>the opposite seems to be true in recent years. >> >>However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects >>worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as >>far away as ever to many observers, including Daimler, I disagree with >>that assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent position) >>would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part of the next >>step in hybrids. >> >>Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending >>that better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a diesel >>in the Prius?" >> >>Jones >> >>BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that an >>even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the time >>frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good battery" or >>"bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel >>Prius, would be a total battery powered design ... but with a small >>valveless Wankel as backup. Now let me add one more detail: >> >>Removable. >> >>Yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be an easily >>removable-backup if it is light enough - and only the Wankel is light >>enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but Deiter, down at the garage, >>can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do it in >>about 10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil change. >> >>For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added >>into a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage. It could even >>be a rented option - which is never used by many consumers - those who do >>not need to go over 60-100 miles without a recharge. When you go on >>vacation, however, you might swing by the dealer and Deiter pop in the >>backup Wankel, as the electrical and fuel connections have already come as >>standard, on your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low cost >>battery-powered vehicle using the EEStor battery. >> >>Of course this scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a >>lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. They >>are now in the news again with this blip: >>http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html >> >>EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a >>breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination >>of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under >>construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by >>Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds as >>senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If the >>prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then this >>is a huge step forward. >> >>According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims the >>battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight >>of lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid per kw >>and 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the anticipated unit >>weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge. >> >>Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available. >>It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good battery" >>especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour. >>The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium >>titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based >>unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to produce >>vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they prove >>themselves to license the technology for volume production. Selling price >>would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in high-volume >>production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound ($1+) but >>only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit output and >>four times costlier for the same power. >> >>But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first >>to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet. >> >>Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 17:06:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J10LBn014805; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:01:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J0R0PJ028438; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:27:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:27:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c61c8e$7a10e860$c22f9d04@oemcomputer> From: "Kyle Mcallister" To: References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:22:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, 18 January, 2006 09:20 AM Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC > I suggest you stop spreading rumors about environmentalism, and try > to stick to critiquing actual statements made by real > environmentalists, rather than a strawman version. Jed, who are you replying to with this? You quoted my text, and replied to that, and then below that you replied to Thomas Malloy where he had replied to me. You didn't specify exactly who you were responding to at what point. As far as the H2O vapor thing I mentioned, I have heard this suggested by local environmental groups, that H2O emissions must be controlled if we start using hydrogen cars. Which is in my opinion, ridiculous. If the above was directed at me, please let me point out that I am not spreading rumors about environmentalists, though it seems likely that some (not all) environmentalists are spreading rumors themselves. And just for everyone's information, I -am- and environmentalist, just not an extremist. It may not be much, but I am trying to do my part in all this, namely, having boosted the insulation in my home and added vapor barriers to all windows. Amazing what it did for my heating bills, very much reduced, I would say 35-40% less. Most lights in my home are fluorescent, and they do not stay on unless needed. Some of this philosophy is rubbing off on people I know well, so I am trying. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 18:27:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J20Vxr013286; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:08:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J1nI1Y006363; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:49:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:49:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:49:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2006 01:49:10.0292 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A9FFD40:01C61C9A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Richard, The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at $6 million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by the end of this quarter. Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy storage application. We would expect to work with them and cross license any patents they develop. Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., (www.magneticpowerinc.com) expects to license generators widely beginning later this year, candidate firms for developing the UMES are likely to emerge synergistically. As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the dot.com crash, has delayed what could have been in production by now...had there been sufficient availability of the necessary capital. Mark >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! >Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:51:02 -0600 > >Hi Mark, >Please give us an update on your comments regarding UMES. Where is the >research being conducted? >There were two flywheel companies ( US Flywheel Co.)on the west coast >developing an ultrahigh speed mechanical unit some years back. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:59 PM >Subject: RE: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! > > >>Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three years, >>can be developed into UMES. These are Superconducting Magnetic Energy >>Storage devices made with polymer, ambient temperature, Ultraconductors. >> >>A UMES should store twice what an equivalent flywheel can store, without >>moving parts. Obviously, it will be very much lighter. >> >>Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and difficulty accepting a >>very rapid charge, such as would be best for regenerative braking, UMES >>units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those characteristics. >> >>Ultracapacitors are falling in price. See the latest Maxwell units. >>Electron flywheels should offer them a bit of competition. Again, the >>weight may be much less. Visualize a cylinder of Kevlar for strong >>containment and binding, since rapid charge and discharge will produce >>powerful mechanical movement tendencies. >> >>Mark >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Jones Beene" >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>To: "vortex" >>>Subject: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" >>>Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:04 -0800 >>> >>>Hybrid autos starting to get political? >>> >>>Used to be - everybody ganged up against GM, but now Toyota will soon be >>>king of the hill, and the lines and alliances are being redrawn. Will >>>uncle Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a home-grown US-produced >>>"better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM ? >>> >>>"Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling >>>two high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the >>>annual Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the >>>volume to promote rival clean-engine technologies." >>> >>>http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-6026076.html >>> >>>A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not going to please that many tree-huggers >>>however. >>> >>>The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of >>>gasoline-electric hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from >>>Germany's DaimlerChrysler, which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries are >>>a better overall solution. That stance, however, seems indefensible (OK >>>stupid) IF far better batteries are in the offing. >>> >>>I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others >>>are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic >>>tactical error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. No VC >>>investor in the world has been as successful, or as admired in financial >>>circles from NY to London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner Perkins. They are >>>simply the top dog. >>> >>>To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has >>>been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he >>>has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club event yesterday in >>>Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech predictions: High >>>on the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward" investment. He didn't >>>mention it by name, but I will - EEStor. More on that later. >>> >>>Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline >>>engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they now account >>>for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are claimed to be >>>more easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is questionable. >>>Many of the historical negatives of diesels - such as noise and >>>cold-starts have been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper >>>- whereas here, the opposite seems to be true in recent years. >>> >>>However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects >>>worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as >>>far away as ever to many observers, including Daimler, I disagree with >>>that assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent position) >>>would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part of the next >>>step in hybrids. >>> >>>Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending >>>that better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a diesel >>>in the Prius?" >>> >>>Jones >>> >>>BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that an >>>even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the time >>>frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good battery" or >>>"bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel >>>Prius, would be a total battery powered design ... but with a small >>>valveless Wankel as backup. Now let me add one more detail: >>> >>>Removable. >>> >>>Yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be an easily >>>removable-backup if it is light enough - and only the Wankel is light >>>enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but Deiter, down at the garage, >>>can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do it in >>>about 10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil change. >>> >>>For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added >>>into a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage. It could >>>even be a rented option - which is never used by many consumers - those >>>who do not need to go over 60-100 miles without a recharge. When you go >>>on vacation, however, you might swing by the dealer and Deiter pop in the >>>backup Wankel, as the electrical and fuel connections have already come >>>as standard, on your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low cost >>>battery-powered vehicle using the EEStor battery. >>> >>>Of course this scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a >>>lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. >>>They are now in the news again with this blip: >>>http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html >>> >>>EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a >>>breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination >>>of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under >>>construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by >>>Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds >>>as senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If >>>the prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then >>>this is a huge step forward. >>> >>>According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims >>>the battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the >>>weight of lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid >>>per kw and 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the >>>anticipated unit weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a >>>fresh charge. >>> >>>Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available. >>>It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good battery" >>>especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour. >>>The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium >>>titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based >>>unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to >>>produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they >>>prove themselves to license the technology for volume production. Selling >>>price would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in >>>high-volume production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per >>>pound ($1+) but only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per >>>unit output and four times costlier for the same power. >>> >>>But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first >>>to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet. >>> >>>Jones >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 18:27:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J20Vxt013286; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:08:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J1wWsS011773; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:58:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <001d01c61c57$c00121f0$72027841@xptower> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:41:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2006 01:41:06.0949 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A87B350:01C61C99] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Richard, The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at $6 million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by the end of this quarter. Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy storage application. We would expect to work with them and cross license any patents they develop. Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., (www.magneticpowerinc.com) expects to license generators widely beginning later this year, candidate firms for developing the UMES are likely to emerge synergistically. As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the dot.com crash, has delayed what could have been in production by now...had there been sufficient availability of the necessary capital. Mark >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! >Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:51:02 -0600 > >Hi Mark, >Please give us an update on your comments regarding UMES. Where is the >research being conducted? >There were two flywheel companies ( US Flywheel Co.)on the west coast >developing an ultrahigh speed mechanical unit some years back. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:59 PM >Subject: RE: Electron flywheels - better than any battery! > > >>Ultraconductors(tm), once in wire form, which is likely in three years, >>can be developed into UMES. These are Superconducting Magnetic Energy >>Storage devices made with polymer, ambient temperature, Ultraconductors. >> >>A UMES should store twice what an equivalent flywheel can store, without >>moving parts. Obviously, it will be very much lighter. >> >>Unlike batteries, which have limited cycle life and difficulty accepting a >>very rapid charge, such as would be best for regenerative braking, UMES >>units are like ultracapacitors in respect to those characteristics. >> >>Ultracapacitors are falling in price. See the latest Maxwell units. >>Electron flywheels should offer them a bit of competition. Again, the >>weight may be much less. Visualize a cylinder of Kevlar for strong >>containment and binding, since rapid charge and discharge will produce >>powerful mechanical movement tendencies. >> >>Mark >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Jones Beene" >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>To: "vortex" >>>Subject: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" >>>Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:22:04 -0800 >>> >>>Hybrid autos starting to get political? >>> >>>Used to be - everybody ganged up against GM, but now Toyota will soon be >>>king of the hill, and the lines and alliances are being redrawn. Will >>>uncle Sam step into the fray eventually, or will a home-grown US-produced >>>"better-battery" (Bettery?) come to the rescue of GM ? >>> >>>"Toyota Motor pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling >>>two high-profile cars equipped with the alternative powertrain at the >>>annual Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the >>>volume to promote rival clean-engine technologies." >>> >>>http://news.com.com/Turning+up+the+heat+on+hybrid+cars/2100-11389_3-6026076.html >>> >>>A $60,000 hybrid Lexus is not going to please that many tree-huggers >>>however. >>> >>>The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of >>>gasoline-electric hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from >>>Germany's DaimlerChrysler, which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries are >>>a better overall solution. That stance, however, seems indefensible (OK >>>stupid) IF far better batteries are in the offing. >>> >>>I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others >>>are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic >>>tactical error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC. No VC >>>investor in the world has been as successful, or as admired in financial >>>circles from NY to London to Hong Kong to LA as Kleiner Perkins. They are >>>simply the top dog. >>> >>>To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has >>>been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he >>>has never revealed many details. At a Churchill Club event yesterday in >>>Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech predictions: High >>>on the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward" investment. He didn't >>>mention it by name, but I will - EEStor. More on that later. >>> >>>Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline >>>engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they now account >>>for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are claimed to be >>>more easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is questionable. >>>Many of the historical negatives of diesels - such as noise and >>>cold-starts have been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper >>>- whereas here, the opposite seems to be true in recent years. >>> >>>However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects >>>worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as >>>far away as ever to many observers, including Daimler, I disagree with >>>that assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent position) >>>would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part of the next >>>step in hybrids. >>> >>>Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending >>>that better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a diesel >>>in the Prius?" >>> >>>Jones >>> >>>BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that an >>>even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the time >>>frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - when the "one good battery" or >>>"bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel >>>Prius, would be a total battery powered design ... but with a small >>>valveless Wankel as backup. Now let me add one more detail: >>> >>>Removable. >>> >>>Yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be an easily >>>removable-backup if it is light enough - and only the Wankel is light >>>enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but Deiter, down at the garage, >>>can handle it or at least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do it in >>>about 10 minutes, the same time it takes for an oil change. >>> >>>For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added >>>into a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage. It could >>>even be a rented option - which is never used by many consumers - those >>>who do not need to go over 60-100 miles without a recharge. When you go >>>on vacation, however, you might swing by the dealer and Deiter pop in the >>>backup Wankel, as the electrical and fuel connections have already come >>>as standard, on your batter-powered vehicle. Make that low cost >>>battery-powered vehicle using the EEStor battery. >>> >>>Of course this scenario depends on that elusive battery, and also to a >>>lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned EEStor before. >>>They are now in the news again with this blip: >>>http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html >>> >>>EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a >>>breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination >>>of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under >>>construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by >>>Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds >>>as senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If >>>the prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then >>>this is a huge step forward. >>> >>>According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims >>>the battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the >>>weight of lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid >>>per kw and 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the >>>anticipated unit weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a >>>fresh charge. >>> >>>Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available. >>>It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good battery" >>>especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour. >>>The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium >>>titanate as the dielectric, plus something else - but is a ceramic-based >>>unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to >>>produce vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they >>>prove themselves to license the technology for volume production. Selling >>>price would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in >>>high-volume production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per >>>pound ($1+) but only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per >>>unit output and four times costlier for the same power. >>> >>>But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first >>>to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet. >>> >>>Jones >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 19:19:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J3J90d016672; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:19:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J3J770016654; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:19:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:19:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <004501c61c8e$7a10e860$c22f9d04@oemcomputer> References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> <004501c61c8e$7a10e860$c22f9d04@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <163BE998-5325-4D30-8E20-1A652BD70276@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:16:36 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, 18 January, 2006 09:20 AM > Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC > > >> I suggest you stop spreading rumors about environmentalism, and try >> to stick to critiquing actual statements made by real >> environmentalists, rather than a strawman version. > > Jed, who are you replying to with this? ... > > --Kyle > This is weird. I have received no text at all, from Jed or anyone else, having the above quoted text. Was that by any chance a private message? Is traffic getting lost both to and from vortex now? I'll just have to chalk it up to volcano eruptions! 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 20:55:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J4tPXq029947; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:55:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J4tNlu029925; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:55:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:55:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> References: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4A620B32-35BE-4EDA-B063-32AEE15A7280@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Blue Anode Glow Observations Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:53:04 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Jan 17, 2006, at 9:01 PM, Michael Foster wrote: > > I had formed the idea, after seeing the hollow columnar > structure Bill provided a link to, What's this all about? Bill Beaty? What columnar structure? OH! I remember now! It is the "Polycrystalline nanopore arrays with hexagonal ordering on aluminum" article by Li et al. My brain works slowly but eventually it usually works. 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 18 22:33:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0J4c8AE021485; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:38:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0J4c6ES021460; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:38:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:38:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060119043754791.C136C2400082@mwinf3201.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:37:55 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am now beginning to realise just how far reaching are the consequences of recognising the existence of the Beta-atmosphere and that materials are held together from the outside and not from within. So far I have been looking at the static aspects of such a view. But stimulated by Horace's Hiatus I realise that the same considerations apply to the dynamic aspects of materials as well. Yesterday morning I borrowed "Longitude" from my local library and finished it in one sitting. I suppose one couldn't have a better illustration of the fact that time as measured by clocks is utterly dependent on the surrounding environment. The whole history of timekeeping is the story of trying to eliminate the effect of the different levels of the environment which are in effect different hierarchical clocks which are out of sync with each other. For example the diurnal temperature change between night and day could be used for driving a clock which measured days. It wouldn't be a very reliable clock since sometimes the nights might be hotter than the days which would confuse it. The pendulum is another clock which depends on the external environment, the gravitational field. If the gravitational field changes the pendulum rate changes. Even a clock which depended on radioactive decay say is dependent on its environment. It was once thought that the rate of radioactive decay was inherent but it ain't. As I quoted in the Appendix to my 1987 Note 103/87, the one which droppeth me in the merde, 8-( ===================================================== "Long and well taught is the axiom that radioactive decay rates are described by N = N(0) - kt with a half life constant = 0.693/k. These equations result initially from studies done with crud instruments some 70 years ago, Bluntly, they are incorrect, none the less appear in our latest text books to compound the errors of past generations. This in spite of the more recent evidence. As a result of the development of sophisticated electronics the k of 7Be was first shown (1949) by 0.1% (Be/BeO). Later (1965) the k of 90Nb was altered by about 4% (metal/fluoride). Studies have varied the decay characteristics of 12 other radionuclides with changes in the energy state of the orbital electrons by pressure, temperature, electric and magnetic fields, stress in monomolecular layers, etc., (Emery: Ann. Rev. Nucl. Sci., 1972 page 165). The Beta- emitter of 14C, 16Co, and 137Ca have had their decay characteristics altered [Anderson and Spangler: J. Phys. Chem., 76, 3603 (1972);77, 3114 (1973)] Analysis or these results show that decay event A is causally related to decay event B occurring later such that the time distributions of all decay events were no longer truly random as required by current theory." ===================================================== Now if radioactive decay, a manifestation of the external Gamma-atmosphere pressure, is not intrinsic, then you can bet your bottom dollar that nothing above it in scale is intrinsic either. And that, of course includes that well known British invention, the caesium clock. Now it just so happens that many years ago I went down to Little Bookham in Surrey to meet Louis Essen the clock's inventor. I must admit, I was rather appalled to find that, frustrated by not being able to publish his views on relativity in the established scientific press, he resorted to publishing in a virulently anti- semitic journal. I'm afraid I was too polite (uncharacteristically ) to protest to his face, but I remember ceremoniously burning the pre-prints he gave me on my return home. I was therefore somewhat surprised to find on the Website which celebrates his life's achievements: http://www.btinternet.com/~time.lord/ the following paragraph, ================================================= The basis of time measurement has switched from astronomy and the solar system to physics and the properties of the atom. His revised value for the velocity of light led to a further change in which length is now defined, not in terms of a metal bar, but the velocity of light multiplied by time. ================================================= I don't know to what extent Essen was involved in that insane decision - but if he was, he couldn't have done a better job in shooting himself in the foot if he had tried. For in coupling time as measured by the caesium clock to length he, or whoever, has effectively enshrined SR as a scientific dogma - an ex-cathedra decree as unquestionable for the orthodox scientist as the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is for a catholic in communion with the Roman and Apostolic Catholic Church. One consequence of this act of supreme folly is that, as the Hafele and Keating Experiments demonstrate, the distance around the earth when travelling clockwise is different from the distance when travelling widdershins - and if you believe that, I will be happy to sell you Big Ben when you next visit England. 8-) This post is already a bit overlong for my Eudora Pro mail program so I will leave details of the HK experiments for the next one. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 02:33:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JAX6r8008123; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:33:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JAX3cK008105; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:33:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:33:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43CEBA37.4000602@pobox.com> References: <20060118125147.18432.qmail@web35006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43CEBA37.4000602@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:30:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Yes but Niagara's _above_ Lake Ontario. > > The Falls is between Erie and Ontario. Ontario's not all that > high, and since the St. Lawrence is, as I mentioned, said to flow > backwards for much of its length during the incoming tide, the > question isn't quite such a no-brainer as it might seem at first. Gee, that's right. I should have known that. I've been there. Well, move upstream! 8^) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 04:37:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JCbWQV023905; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:37:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JCbVUA023887; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eID7KoC9qLu2M6ycrt3Jso8bLHP1kLa3gNJrcP7+lZuGhvi97qFyMh82xmh6gbUw; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061419123717729@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bicycle Wheel Vortex Generator Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:37:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fdadfacc2d1e0dbe1be81930250d1907350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: <38nAKD.A.L1F.Kg4zDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW, a 2 ft diameter bike wheel (price from $2.00 to $2,000.00) turning at 3,000 rpm has a perimeter velocity of 314 ft/sec (214 mph) and a 3000 G force on it. The front wheel (tangentially or radially-spoked?) with the cones locked up, or the back wheel so the "New Departure or Bendix?) coaster brake can be employed. According to this simulator: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html A 4 ft x 4 ft flat plate at 1300 ft altitude should see a `lift of 102 LBS (0.044 psi, 1.44 inch W.C. Vortex delta P) with the 214 mph rotating bike wheel mounted on it. WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 1/19/2006 4:26:54 AM Subject: Re: Bicycle Wheel Vortex Generator The continuity equation: A1V1 = A2V2, plus the equation Q = Area x Velocity sets a limit for air velocity after it exits a nozzle. The flame cone off a fighter jet engine exhaust illustrates this very nicely. The air velocity drops drastically a little past the blower tube exit. Except for momentum A2 is almost infinite and V2 has to go to zero and pressure climbs toward infinity. :-) Even a 100 cfm (1.66 ft^3/sec) two-stage vacuum motor calculates to an exit velocity of 60 ft/sec or 41 mph for a 2.25 inch diameter tube. A way to get air moving at high velocity over s surface is to create the Bernoulli low pressure is: 1, rotating "blades" close to the surface, 2, rotating the surface (as Rick suggested), 3, a blower-fed cyclone cylinder-section above the surface. Rotating a bicycle wheel with it's axis normal to the plane of the surface can do 1 and 3 at the same time. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW, a 2 ft diameter bike wheel (price from $2.00 to $2,000.00) turning
at 3,000 rpm has a perimeter velocity of 314 ft/sec (214 mph)
and a 3000 G  force  on it.
 
The front wheel (tangentially or radially-spoked?) with the cones locked up,
or the back wheel so the "New Departure or Bendix?) coaster brake can be employed.
 
According to this simulator:
 
 
A 4 ft x 4 ft flat plate at 1300 ft altitude should see a `lift of
102 LBS (0.044 psi, 1.44 inch W.C.  Vortex delta  P) with the 214 mph
rotating bike wheel mounted on it.
 
WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER.   :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/19/2006 4:26:54 AM
Subject: Re: Bicycle Wheel Vortex Generator

The continuity equation: A1V1 = A2V2,  plus the equation  Q = Area x Velocity sets
a limit for air velocity after it exits a nozzle. The flame cone
off a fighter jet engine exhaust illustrates this very nicely.
 
The air velocity drops drastically a little past the blower tube exit. Except for
momentum A2 is almost infinite and V2 has to go to zero and pressure
climbs toward infinity.  :-)
 
Even a 100 cfm (1.66 ft^3/sec) two-stage vacuum motor calculates
to an exit velocity of 60 ft/sec or 41 mph for a 2.25 inch diameter tube.
 
A way to get air moving at high velocity over s surface is to create the
Bernoulli low pressure is:
1, rotating "blades" close to the surface,
 
2, rotating the surface (as Rick suggested),
 
3, a blower-fed cyclone cylinder-section above the surface.
 
Rotating a bicycle wheel with it's axis normal to the plane of the surface  can
do 1 and 3 at the same time.  
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 05:35:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JDZDao017966; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:35:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JDZBDN017935; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:35:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:35:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:35:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A After reading Bill Beaty's comments, I took another stab at it, and actually got a result! With a #6B artist's pencil I drew (free-hand) two dark solid lines on a sheet of printer paper, about 200 mm long and about 2.5 mm apart. I checked them, and each line was electrically "intact" (#6 pencil marks have a tendency to leave electrical gaps if one isn't careful). I connected to the marks with alligator clips -- which were verified to make decent contact in these conditions -- and put the paper in series with a 10M resistor (paralleled with a 100pf capacitor), with 9 volts across the lot. I read out the voltage on the resistor through an op-amp, amplified 1000x, and got a reading of about 3.5 volts, which wandered around a lot. Breathing on the paper sent the reading off-scale; it recovered slowly. Laying a thumb across the marks shot it off-scale as well. 3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. Dividing that by the width of the strip and multiplying by the length, that comes out to a (surface) resistivity of about 2000 gigohms for 20 pound 100% recycled ink-jet paper. At some point I'll try it again with somewhat better-controlled conditions, including trying to get connections to _both_ sides of the paper rather than just one side -- though that shouldn't actually make much difference. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 05:57:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JDvXiC027457; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:57:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JDvVNs027432; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CF910C.10402@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:15:56 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> <004501c61c8e$7a10e860$c22f9d04@oemcomputer> <163BE998-5325-4D30-8E20-1A652BD70276@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <163BE998-5325-4D30-8E20-1A652BD70276@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jed Rothwell" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, 18 January, 2006 09:20 AM >> Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC >> >> >>> I suggest you stop spreading rumors about environmentalism, and try >>> to stick to critiquing actual statements made by real >>> environmentalists, rather than a strawman version. >> >> >> Jed, who are you replying to with this? > > ... > >> >> --Kyle >> > > > This is weird. I have received no text at all, from Jed or anyone > else, having the above quoted text. Was that by any chance a private > message? Is traffic getting lost both to and from vortex now? Traffic is apparently getting lost. I've also seen at least one reply to a message I never saw some time in the last few weeks. I've also occasionally suspected that the "lost" messages I've sent to Vortex which I've resent may have gone to _part_ of the list, but not to me, and everybody's just too polite to complain about seeing the message twice when I send it again. > > I'll just have to chalk it up to volcano eruptions! 8^) > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 06:25:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JEPLe7009665; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:25:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JEPJDb009645; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:25:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:17:07 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xf" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer wrote: 1-18-06 I am now beginning to realise just how far reaching are the consequences of recognising the existence of the Beta-atmosphere and that materials are held together from the outside and not from within ... As the Hafele and Keating Experiments demonstrate, the distance around the earth when travelling clockwise is different from the distance when travelling widdershins - and if you believe that, I will be happy to sell you Big Ben when you next visit England. 8-) Hi Frank, For me, "fields" are a only calculational convenience; and force transmission by particles is the most satisfying mental picture for me personally. In addition, the theory appeals to me that gravity is a compressive force transmitted by particles (gravitons) travelling at speeds magnitudes greater than the speed of light, thus the effectiveness of design equations assuming "action at a distance." Le Sage, a contemporary of Newton, apparently arrived at Newton's equations assuming a compressive gravity force transmitted by particles. So I'm enjoying your Beta-atmosphere posts. Regarding Hafele, in 1971, he conducted an experiment by taking atomic clocks around the world in an airplane in the same direction as the Earth's axial spin. It was found that the clocks slowed down compared with the stationary laboratory clock back in Washington. He then took the clocks in the opposite direction, and it was found that the clocks "ticked" faster than the laboratory clock. One interpretation of this data is that the clocks in the airplane incurred time dilation when moving in the direction of the Earth's axial spin, and time contraction when moving in the opposite direction. Another interpretation of this data is that the half life increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the clocks are moved in the opposite direction. It would be interesting to see what happens if the clocks were flown in a path from the north pole to the south pole and then around the Earth back to the north pole. Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) p. 132 "It is usually stated that this dilation of the proper time of a body in motion has been proven by experiments in which unstable mesons are accelerated and move at high velocities in particle accelerators. In these experiments it is observed that the half-lives ... of these accelerated mesons are greater than the half-lives of mesons at rest in the laboratory. But this is not the only interpretation of these experiments. It can be equally argued that these experiments only show that the half-lives of the unstable mesons depend on their accelerations ... An analogy ... Suppose two identical pendulum clocks at rest on the earth, marking the same time at sea level and running at the same pace, We then carry one of them to a high mountain, keep it there for several hours, and bring it back to sea level at the location of the other clock. Comparing the two clocks it is observed that the clock which was carried to the top of the mountain is delayed relative to the one which stayed all the time at sea level. This is the observational fact. It can be interpreted saying that time ran more slowly for the clock at the top of the mountain. Or it can be interpreted by saying that time ran equally to both clocks, but that the period of oscillation ... depends on the gravitational field of the earth ... As the gravitational field is weaker at the top of the mountain than at sea level, the clock which stayed on the mountain is delayed as compared with the one at sea level ..." "Time dilation" implies the existence of absolute time. (The phrase "time ran" goes along with that implication.) I prefer to think of time as a series of events occurring in space. Treating time as a dimension is just a calculational convenience. I can't prove that there is no time dilation; but I also can't prove that no more than 30 angels can stand on the head of a pin at the same time. Weren't length contraction and time dilation invented by Lorentz to save the ether theory after the Michelson-Morely experiment? I guess the math works. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 07:30:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JFU811008270; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:30:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JFU3Ix008211; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:30:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:30:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c61d0d$2bf9cf50$4b037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:29:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C61CDA.E0C39480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4Mb_JB.A.q_B.5B7zDB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C61CDA.E0C39480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C61CDA.E0C39480" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C61CDA.E0C39480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Grimer wrote.. I am now beginning to realise just how far reaching=20 are the consequences of recognising the existence of=20 the Beta-atmosphere and that materials are held=20 together from the outside and not from within. Hi Frank, If you only knew the stimulus of the Beta-atmosphere theme. One never = knows what can evolve from putting ideas to print as the famous Bard = would discover in hindsight were he be gifted with looking back over the = centuries. Seeming unrelated technical thoughts can be stimulated from a comment = made on VortexL. For example.. mechanical seals and the never ending = problems with their limitations. Shazzaam ! We have an problem with no = mechanical solution... or.. have we been looking at it wrong.. from the = outside in ....whereas we should be looking at it inside out.. . = You gave me a thought that is leading us to investigate a " = differential" seal. Wow!! We think we are onto something. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C61CDA.E0C39480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 
Grimer wrote..
I am now beginning to realise just how far reaching
are the=20 consequences of recognising the existence of
the Beta-atmosphere and = that=20 materials are held
together from the outside and not from = within.

Hi=20 Frank,
If you only knew the stimulus of the Beta-atmosphere theme. One = never knows=20 what can evolve from putting ideas to print as the famous Bard would = discover in=20 hindsight were he be gifted with looking back over the = centuries.
 
Seeming unrelated technical thoughts can be = stimulated from a=20 comment made on VortexL. For example.. mechanical seals and the never = ending=20 problems with their limitations. Shazzaam ! We have an problem with no=20 mechanical solution... or.. have we been looking at it wrong.. from the = outside=20 in ....whereas we should be looking at it inside out.. <grin>. You = gave me=20 a thought that is leading us to investigate a " differential" seal. = Wow!! We=20 think we are onto something.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C61CDA.E0C39480-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C61CDA.E0C39480 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c61d0d$2b54b5b0$4b037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C61CDA.E0C39480-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 08:37:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JF8ult031547; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:08:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JF8rZo031523; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:08:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:08:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:08:43 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by electron level transitions. I think the change is due to Beta-atm drag. The earth drags the aether as it rotates. The resulting change in electron resonance is essentially a Doppler effect of the Beta-atm. http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock I actually recently purchased the HP 5071. The spare Cesium tube was $10k. I believe the polar flight *has* been done. I'll see if I can find a reference. -----Original Message----- From: Taylor J. Smith Another interpretation of this data is that the half life increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the clocks are moved in the opposite direction. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 08:42:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JGgEBx011005; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:42:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JGgBun010967; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:42:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:42:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vDNVU4rRurQYp59t0pp95QlZWLoXWLsxijfFrl0Kzr0iwALsFcKSU8T9CFmg3bE4qPZpZXuU5wIw4zJL17ylWPyfPKGLXSwrs60TKLYIQENLmi3IHMxM0yYUe7g06R2jPQPVHt2Q3Sj+I5VKh39N96oIsCMoDye5bwggIZHe/GQ= ; Message-ID: <20060119164202.33138.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:42:02 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000001c61c69$24d60f30$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I stand corrected. This OEM list http://www.owwm.com/MfgIndex/Detail.asp?ID=222 indicates that most craftsman lawn equipment is manufactured by the Electrolux group, and is equivalent to the Poulan and Weedeater brands. Still havent tracked down the engine manuf. yet. --- John Steck wrote: > B&S is not in the 2-stroke game, they do 4-stroke. > Craftsman outdoor power > is a private label by MTD out of Ohio. MTD brands > include Cub Cadet, > Troy-Bilt, Yard-Man, Ryobi, Yard Machines, Bolens > and Cub Cadet. Some > assembly stateside but the bulk of the manufacturing > and parts come from > overseas. > > OEM = original equipment manufacturer... and no, > Sears now private labels > just about everything under the Craftsman name now. > They are now a VAR = > value added reseller. > > -john > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Merlyn [mailto:merlyn_3k@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower > > > Its probably a Briggs and Stratton out of Wisconsin. > And Craftsman IS an OEM, just not for the engine. > > --- John Steck wrote: > > > Craftsman is just a private label. They are not > an > > OEM. All 2-stokes are > > regulated by the EPA... You want to know who > really > > makes it, read the > > emissions label on the engine. My bet is it isn't > 'down-home-Amurcan' > > at all. > > > > -john > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:56 AM > > To: vortex-l > > Subject: Airborne Backpack Blower > > > > [snip] what is more down-home-Amurcan than > Craftsman > > ? > > > > > > > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 08:43:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JBiLMg002917; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:44:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JBiJFI002890; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:44:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:44:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UJXP7LJCp93iHSPBgaWY6PJs4pZbwJZtdYlj9C3Qr37qaVPPeUU0RQl/3HWs+yFZ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006141911270985@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bicycle Wheel Vortex Generator Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:27:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f449b224b9807d32fa40a74d854a30b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.122 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The continuity equation: A1V1 = A2V2, plus the equation Q = Area x Velocity sets a limit for air velocity after it exits a nozzle. The flame cone off a fighter jet engine exhaust illustrates this very nicely. The air velocity drops drastically a little past the blower tube exit. Except for momentum A2 is almost infinite and V2 has to go to zero and pressure climbs toward infinity. :-) Even a 100 cfm (1.66 ft^3/sec) two-stage vacuum motor calculates to an exit velocity of 60 ft/sec or 41 mph for a 2.25 inch diameter tube. A way to get air moving at high velocity over s surface is to create the Bernoulli low pressure is: 1, rotating "blades" close to the surface, 2, rotating the surface (as Rick suggested), 3, a blower-fed cyclone cylinder-section above the surface. Rotating a bicycle wheel with it's axis normal to the plane of the surface can do 1 and 3 at the same time. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The continuity equation: A1V1 = A2V2,  plus the equation  Q = Area x Velocity sets
a limit for air velocity after it exits a nozzle. The flame cone
off a fighter jet engine exhaust illustrates this very nicely.
 
The air velocity drops drastically a little past the blower tube exit. Except for
momentum A2 is almost infinite and V2 has to go to zero and pressure
climbs toward infinity.  :-)
 
Even a 100 cfm (1.66 ft^3/sec) two-stage vacuum motor calculates
to an exit velocity of 60 ft/sec or 41 mph for a 2.25 inch diameter tube.
 
A way to get air moving at high velocity over s surface is to create the
Bernoulli low pressure is:
1, rotating "blades" close to the surface,
 
2, rotating the surface (as Rick suggested),
 
3, a blower-fed cyclone cylinder-section above the surface.
 
Rotating a bicycle wheel with it's axis normal to the plane of the surface  can
do 1 and 3 at the same time.  
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 10:01:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JI0BqL009488; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:01:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JHBeWP025217; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:11:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:11:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:11:02 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by > electron level transitions. > > I think the change is due to Beta-atm drag. The earth drags the aether > as it rotates. The resulting change in electron resonance is > essentially a Doppler effect of the Beta-atm. The mismatched readings from planes going around the world in opposite directions is a consequence of the Sagnac effect. If you want to reproduce it yourself just obtain a laser-ring gyroscope. They're common items, available commercially, used in navigation, and they depend intrinsically on the Sagnac effect. You don't need an airliner to do it, though using an airplane and a clock instead of an interferometer is admittedly far more dramatic. The effect falls out trivially from special relativity. It also falls out of "Lorentz aether theory", which uses the same math as special relativity (so of course it gets the same results). Ballistic theory is killed dead by the Sagnac effect; as far as I know there is no way to patch it up to handle this case. There are no special properties of particular elements nor nuclear transitions involved. It's just that if you want to measure the effect using a clock, rather than using an interferometer to observe wavelength shifts in light, you need to use a very, very precise clock because the effect isn't very large, and right now that means using a cesium clock. Otherwise any old clock would work just as well. The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of several months. > > http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock > > I actually recently purchased the HP 5071. The spare Cesium tube was $10k. > > I believe the polar flight *has* been done. I'll see if I can find a > reference. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Taylor J. Smith > > Another interpretation of this data is that the half life > increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the > Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the > clocks are moved in the opposite direction. > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 11:02:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JJ09Li005336; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:02:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JIdOfC027311; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:39:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:39:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060119183851975.EE2D71C00096@mwinf3204.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060119183852.00b92d84@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:38:52 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 am 19/01/2006 -0500, Terry aka hohlraum wrote: > But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. > They work by electron level transitions. I didn't think they did, Terry. I only gave that example cos if radioactive decay is affected by its environment then one would expect everything on a larger scale to be affected - but reading on further I see that your remark is really addressed to Smith. > I think the change is due to Beta-atm drag. The earth drags the > aether as it rotates. The resulting change in electron resonance > is essentially a Doppler effect of the Beta-atm. Sounds good to me. 8-) >http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock > > I actually recently purchased the HP 5071. > The spare Cesium tube was $10k. > > I believe the polar flight *has* been done. > I'll see if I can find a reference. That should be interesting. Cheers, Frank >-----Original Message----- >From: Taylor J. Smith > >Another interpretation of this data is that the half life >increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the >Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the >clocks are moved in the opposite direction. >___________________________________________________ >Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >http://mail.netscape.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 11:59:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JFYuAC010578; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:34:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JFYpku010535; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:34:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:34:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c61d0d$dcc16500$4b037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118143602.03466400@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Vortex constipated again? Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:34:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, J_CHICKENPOX_33,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Everyone is experiencing trafic jams at rush hour. Major routing servers have their problems with up to a 1/3 being down at any one time, and.. lets not forget our friendly " peeping tom" is using their typical gov'met way of doing things which given the opportunity will cascade us back in to the internet stone age . Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: Vortex constipated again? >I have been sending messages which have not come back to me. Vortex seems a >jam up from time to time, especially this time of year. It must be all that >holiday food. > > Anyway, here is a message I sent this morning -- > > Nothing to shout about, but see: > > http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060117-092150-8241r_page2.htm > > The editor made a mistake, adding an inappropriate "Mr." > > This is a right-wing newspaper but I am happy to be heard anywhere. > > This has not produced a noticeable increase in traffic at LENR-CANR as of > 9:00 a.m. [Update: There is perhaps a little more traffic than usual at > midday.] > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 12:13:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JJdFSD025532; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:39:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JJdBqK025472; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:39:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:39:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060119193736647.9E1B51C0008A@mwinf3206.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060119193736.00ba9230@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:37:36 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:17 pm 19/01/2006 +0000, you wrote: >> Frank Grimer wrote: 1-18-06 > >> I am now beginning to realise just how far reaching >> are the consequences of recognising the existence of >> the Beta-atmosphere and that materials are held >> together from the outside and not from within ... >> >> As the Hafele and Keating Experiments demonstrate, >> the distance around the earth when travelling clockwise >> is different from the distance when travelling widdershins - >> and if you believe that, I will be happy to sell you >> Big Ben when you next visit England. 8-) >Hi Frank, > >For me, "fields" are a only calculational convenience; and >force transmission by particles is the most satisfying >mental picture for me personally. Me too. Though I'd be happy with particle-like-thingees such as vortex rings. >In addition, the >theory appeals to me that gravity is a compressive >force transmitted by particles (gravitons) travelling at >speeds magnitudes greater than the speed of light, thus >the effectiveness of design equations assuming "action >at a distance." Le Sage, a contemporary of Newton, >apparently arrived at Newton's equations assuming a >compressive gravity force transmitted by particles. >So I'm enjoying your Beta-atmosphere posts. Yep. I thing Tom van Flandern puts the FTL gravity argument very well - though in my opinion he spoils his book with nutty stuff towards the end. >Regarding Hafele, in 1971, he conducted an experiment by >taking atomic clocks around the world in an airplane in the >same direction as the Earth's axial spin. It was found >that the clocks slowed down compared with the stationary >laboratory clock back in Washington. He then took the >clocks in the opposite direction, and it was found that >the clocks "ticked" faster than the laboratory clock. > >One interpretation of this data is that the clocks in >the airplane incurred time dilation when moving in the >direction of the Earth's axial spin, and time contraction >when moving in the opposite direction. > >Another interpretation of this data is that the half life >increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the >Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the >clocks are moved in the opposite direction. It would be >interesting to see what happens if the clocks were flown >in a path from the north pole to the south pole and then >around the Earth back to the north pole. > >Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, >1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) > >p. 132 I bought a copy some time ago which I seem to have mislaid. I'm obviously not as familiar with it as you are. >"It is usually stated that this dilation of the proper >time of a body in motion has been proven by experiments >in which unstable mesons are accelerated and move at high >velocities in particle accelerators. > >In these experiments it is observed that the half-lives >... of these accelerated mesons are greater than the >half-lives of mesons at rest in the laboratory. > >But this is not the only interpretation of these >experiments. It can be equally argued that these >experiments only show that the half-lives of the unstable >mesons depend on their accelerations ... > >An analogy ... Suppose two identical pendulum clocks at >rest on the earth, marking the same time at sea level and >running at the same pace, We then carry one of them to a >high mountain, keep it there for several hours, and bring >it back to sea level at the location of the other clock. > >Comparing the two clocks it is observed that the clock >which was carried to the top of the mountain is delayed >relative to the one which stayed all the time at sea level. >This is the observational fact. > >It can be interpreted saying that time ran more slowly >for the clock at the top of the mountain. Or it can be >interpreted by saying that time ran equally to both clocks, >but that the period of oscillation ... depends on the >gravitational field of the earth ... As the gravitational >field is weaker at the top of the mountain than at sea >level, the clock which stayed on the mountain is delayed >as compared with the one at sea level ..." > >"Time dilation" implies the existence of absolute time. >(The phrase "time ran" goes along with that implication.) >I prefer to think of time as a series of events occurring >in space. Treating time as a dimension is just a >calculational convenience. Sounds not unlike my view of time - see http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/5-3/commentary5-3a.pdf >I can't prove that there is no time dilation; but I also >can't prove that no more than 30 angels can stand on the >head of a pin at the same time. Quite so - and one can't prove to a lunatic he's not Napoleon. The problems arise when the lunatics take charge of the asylum. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 12:21:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JKJU34012316; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:20:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JKJRxo012280; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:19:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:19:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060119195053880.D6EDC2400086@mwinf3201.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060119195054.00ba5fb8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:50:54 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following stuff from the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group seems to have been largely covered by other people but I may as well include if for completeness of the archive ===================================================== From: "fgrimer" Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:17 am Subject: The Hafele and Keating Experiments I am sorry to have to subject the readers of this B-atm. group to a chunk of relativity stuff but the point which Webster Kehr expresses so clearly will be crucial to understanding the working of servomechanisms within materials. I confess I was so impressed with the clarity of Kehr's explanation that I congratulated him by e-mail and received an acknowledgement the very next day (ain't the Net a wonderful asset for expediting research). ----------------------------------------------------------- http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/files/Detection.pdf The Hafele and Keating Experiments The Hafele-Keating experiments of 1971 are among the most famous experiments in the history of physics. Their experiments were designed to test the validity of Einstein's SR and his General Theory of Relativity ("GR"). Hafele and Keating twice flew four cesium atomic clocks around the world in commercial jets, first eastbound, then westbound. Their experiments proved that "time," as measured by atomic clocks, is a function of the direction, velocity and altitude of jet airplanes. The direction and velocity of the airplanes were factors of the SR and the altitude of the jets was a factor of the GR.[8,9,10,11] I should note that "time" in this case is the "actual time" as measured by the atomic clocks. Compared to the time kept by a stationary atomic clock at the U.S. Naval Observatory ("USNO"), which stayed on the ground, the eastbound clocks measured time slower than the stationary clock and the westbound clocks measured time faster than the stationary clock. Prior to their experiments, Hafele correctly predicted that the westbound clocks would measure time faster than the stationary clock.[8,9] The Hafele-Keating experiment is considered a proof that the SR and GR are valid theories. But the H-K used a very different version of the SR than was proposed by Einstein in 1905. For example, in the "old SR" of 1905, every element in the experiment was considered, or could be considered, an "at rest" relative reference frame. This was the entire intent of the concept of "relative reference frames." For example, if there were ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions, any one of these ten airplanes could be used as the "at rest" reference frame, for the formulas of relativity, to determine the "relative time" between it and any of the other planes. ========================================= Comment Now this assumption of "ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions" is always what I understood Special Relativity to claim - but as you can see, those slimy bastard relativists shifted the goalposts. Frank ========================================= By 1971, however, the concept of "relative reference frames" had been totally eliminated. In the "new SR," used by Hafele and Keating, none of the two sets of jet airplanes or atomic clocks in the experiment were allowed to be considered "at rest." Not even the stationary atomic clock at the USNO could be considered "at rest." In the "new SR" used in the H-K, only one "at rest" reference frame was allowed and that was "a nonrotating observer looking down on the North pole from a great distance" [9] or to put it more simply: "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole." ========================================= comment In other words, an absolute reference frame for rotation with respect to the stars - with respect to the non-curvature of water surface in a bucket to bring it down to the most mundane level. Frank ========================================= This "at rest" reference point was not part of the experiment, meaning there was no atomic clock at that point. The "at rest" point in the H-K was many thousands of kilometers from any of the atomic clocks that were part of the experiment! The entire concept of "relative reference frames" was that any object that was part of the experiment could be considered "at rest." No object in the experiment was ever considered "at rest" by Hafele and Keating. It is important to emphasize that the observer or point is "nonrotating." If the observer rotated with the earth, then a stationary point on the equator, for example, would be viewed as being "at rest" relative to the observer's viewpoint. However, because the observer is not rotating, then a stationary point on the equator would be moving at a velocity equal to the (angular) rotation velocity of the earth at that latitude (i.e. zero degrees north). Thus, the "stationary" clock at the USNO was considered to be in motion due to the rotation of the earth (i.e. its velocity was measured relative to the rotation velocity of the earth at its latitude) because the observer was not rotating.[9] Thus, the "stationary" clock was actually in "motion." Let's call a spade a spade. Hafele and Keating could be said to have used a "local or localized Absolute Reference Frame ("local ARF") and a local or localized Absolute Time." By "absolute" I mean that the "at rest" reference frame they chose was not part of the experiment and did not move (relative to other objects), and did not rotate, during the experiment. By "local" I mean that they did not use the URF of CMBR (which had not been discovered by 1971), or the reference frame of the sun's barycenter (which Hafele and Keating obviously would have known about), or the galactic barycenter (which they should have known about), but instead they used a reference frame within the ionosphere, which is "local" to the earth, meaning it travels with the earth in its motions in the universe. The choice of an "at rest" reference frame thousands of kilometers from the experiment was clearly not the intent of the original SR, but was added by Einstein before or during 1920 when he started talking about the center of a rotating disc as the one and only allowable "at rest" reference point.[12] Einstein's change of mind from using "at rest" reference frames that were part of the experiment, to using a single local ARF that was thousands of kilometers from the objects in the experiment, was undoubtedly due to empirical data. Einstein was known to have been working on the Doppler effect of canal rays (a predecessor to today's atomic clocks) prior to 1908.[13] In fact, the 1919 Nobel Prize was awarded to Johannes Stark for the discovery of the Doppler effect in canal rays, which discovery was made by Stark in 1905.[14] Hafele and Keating did not invent the concept of using an "at rest" reference frame on the extended axis of the earth, they knew what they had to use before they did their experiments. The two articles written by Hafele before the experiment prove that. They knew that if they used the stationary USNO atomic clock as their "at rest" reference point the formulas of the SR would not have worked with the actual data. Even before the H-K it was known that in order to get the formulas of the SR to work it was necessary to pick a localized ARF on the extended axis of the earth. It is probable that the reason Hafele and Keating used "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole," instead of the center of the earth, is because its use made it easier to visualize and explain why the stationary USNO atomic clock had to be in motion. =================================================== As usual with "independent thinkers", Webster Kehr has a lot of nutty other ideas which I certainly don't subscribe to. But credit where credit's due - he seems to have nailed the essentials of the HK experiment firmly to the doors of relativity's cathedral - for which insight I am very grateful. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 13:04:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JL3gvI001211; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:03:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JL3ee0001197; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:03:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:03:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:02:35 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Melvin Miles , Jed Rothwell , Scott , cmns@googlegroups.com, Vortex Subject: A proposed letter to the Yale Newspaper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed has suggested another letter to the Yale Newspaper and that several people have expressed an interest in signing such letter. I believe we have beat the reality of cold fusion to death and need to raise the issue to a new level. Therefore, I have provided another letter and ask if anyone would like to sign this before it is sent to the Yale Newspaper. Regards, Ed The proper Role of Scholars in Examining Science. Recent news articles about corruption in science and the recent letters to the editor provided by Prof. Kevles and Dr. Storms have revealed an important difference in how conflict in science is interpreted. This difference is made especially clear when a comparison is made between viewpoints based on personal knowledge of the subject and those based on secondary sources. The subject of “cold fusion” has become a timely and important example of this issue. Many people believe "cold fusion", as first claimed by Prof. Pons and Fleischmann in 1989, is an example of bad science that was subsequently shown to be wrong. This attitude has been institutionalized in books and by uninformed people who continue to use the myth as an example of bad science. These repeated examples continue to accumulate and add to the general myth, even though the myth is no longer valid. As a result, the myth grows when scholars and reporters do not re-examine the subject, instead accept what is considered common knowledge. To a scientist, knowledge obtained by the scientific process has a continuity. Initial discoveries are always incomplete and confusing, perhaps even bad science. Gradually the work is refined and accepted. This is a normal process that does not distract from any inadequacies present in the initial work. On the other hand, people who have a skeptical disposition look at the work in isolation. If the initial discovery is not perfect, it is rejected as bad science. This interpretation of science is especially dangerous when it comes from a professor working at a major university. It is dangerous because it inhibits new discovery and discussion of novel ideas. It is dangerous because science will not advance if new work is subjected to rejection, ridicule, and criticism because it is not complete and consistent with established knowledge. All professors should know this because it is their job to advance knowledge, in addition to encouraging high standards. The challenge is to make these two roles work together, not be in conflict, as is the case when “cold fusion” is used as an example of bad science. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 13:19:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JLJCPM008182; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:19:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JLJ2n5008072; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:19:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:19:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060119160538.034c0900@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:18:38 -0500 To: cmns@googlegroups.com, Melvin Miles , Scott , cmns@googlegroups.com, Vortex From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CMNS: A proposed letter to the Yale Newspaper In-Reply-To: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> References: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2DVe9.A.89B.EJA0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a good letter, but it does not directly address the issues raised by Kevles in her rebuttal, so the editor may not publish it. Typically, editors will not extend a debate when it seems to be expanding into new territory or veering off into unrelated subject matter. (Also, they do not like arguments that go in circles, as when you repeat the same points you raised initially.) If we could adjust this letter a little bit to address some of the statements made by Kevles, I think it would stand a better chance of being printed. It is clear to me how this letter relates to what Kevles said, but it may not be clear to other readers. So the connection has be made more explicit. For example you have to say something like: "Kevles made a false distinction between the initial experiments reported by Fleischmann and Pons and later replications of this work done by others. She fails to understand that knowledge obtained by the scientific process has a continuity. Initial discoveries are always incomplete and confusing, perhaps even bordering on bad science. Gradually the work is refined and accepted. This is a normal process that does not distract from any inadequacies present in the initial work. . . ." I think it would also be a good idea to say that the people writing this letter replicated on the Fleischmann and they respect their work, as I said in my proposed draft. Before you go to the trouble of collecting signatures or refining the message it might be a good idea to ask Violet (the editor) if she would be willing to publish anything more on this controversy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 13:44:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JLi1SB020350; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:44:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JLhwrm020325; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:43:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:43:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D007DC.2070005@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:42:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cmns@googlegroups.com CC: Melvin Miles , Scott , Vortex Subject: Re: CMNS: Re: A proposed letter to the Yale Newspaper References: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060119160538.034c0900@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060119160538.034c0900@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have no objection to the letter being improved. However, I think a letter signed by a collection of Ph.D.s and other scientists would be more impressive than asking her attitude of a general letter. Without something new, of course she would say no. The "new" is the obvious general support of the issue and the new spin. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > > This is a good letter, but it does not directly address the issues > raised by Kevles in her rebuttal, so the editor may not publish it. > Typically, editors will not extend a debate when it seems to be > expanding into new territory or veering off into unrelated subject > matter. (Also, they do not like arguments that go in circles, as when > you repeat the same points you raised initially.) > > If we could adjust this letter a little bit to address some of the > statements made by Kevles, I think it would stand a better chance of > being printed. It is clear to me how this letter relates to what Kevles > said, but it may not be clear to other readers. So the connection has be > made more explicit. For example you have to say something like: > > "Kevles made a false distinction between the initial experiments > reported by Fleischmann and Pons and later replications of this work > done by others. She fails to understand that knowledge obtained by the > scientific process has a continuity. Initial discoveries are always > incomplete and confusing, perhaps even bordering on bad science. > Gradually the work is refined and accepted. This is a normal process > that does not distract from any inadequacies present in the initial > work. . . ." > > I think it would also be a good idea to say that the people writing this > letter replicated on the Fleischmann and they respect their work, as I > said in my proposed draft. > > Before you go to the trouble of collecting signatures or refining the > message it might be a good idea to ask Violet (the editor) if she would > be willing to publish anything more on this controversy. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 13:57:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JLvEMg027016; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:57:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JLvCLW026990; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:57:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:57:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:57:04 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7EB5A6B213E8C-1C18-D006@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Encyclopedia Galatica Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <3-eKcB.A.plG.3sA0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Move over Wikipedia http://www.digitaluniverse.net/ Joe Firmage's latest effort is ready for prime time. Requires a special browser dowload and does not appear to accommodate Apple users. "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 14:03:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JKNsdC014596; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:23:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JKNpgS014567; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:23:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:23:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43CFF53A.5030808@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:23:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" References: <012101c61948$2fe16c40$1714fea9@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <012101c61948$2fe16c40$1714fea9@NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Of course - the obvious question for the next couple of years, pending > that better-battery going into mass production - is "why not use a > diesel in the Prius?" > > Jones !!! Well, what's the answer? Why _not_ use a diesel in the Prius? It's a question that never occurred to me, even during a Thanksgiving dinner in which I found myself talking (er, listening) to a diesel-loving automobile mechanic who explained at some length why Prius in particular and hybrids in general are a dead-end concept and we should all drive diesels. But now that you've asked it, I'm really wondering what the answer is. If diesel's better than gas, why not use a diesel/electric hybrid? (Freight trains do it and it seems to work OK for them.) Is it the weight issue? That's hard to believe -- they stick diesels in VW rabbits f'gosh sakes; they don't have to be heavy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 14:22:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JMLY7Y007696; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:21:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JMLSih007639; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:21:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:21:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060119171257.034764a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:19:51 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" In-Reply-To: <43CFF53A.5030808@pobox.com> References: <012101c61948$2fe16c40$1714fea9@NuDell> <43CFF53A.5030808@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_7HNd.A.P3B.nDB0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >!!! Well, what's the answer? > >Why _not_ use a diesel in the Prius? Because it was engineered 10 years ago at a cost of $1 billion, and you cannot simply throw in a new kind of engine without a complete redesign, and large changes to the factory floor. They need to make back the money on the investment. Also, I doubt they could make a diesel with such low levels of pollution. I think an improvement to the battery would be much easier to implement than a new type of internal combustion engine, and I think it would have a larger impact on overall efficiency. I say this because they have already substantially improved the battery, in the revised model introduced last year. I expect they will continue to make incremental improvements and tweaks. A diesel engine would be a gigantic change, not a tweak. Implementing a plug-in version would also be a smaller change than a diesel, and it would have a much larger impact on efficiency and pollution. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 15:41:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JM9rUq001181; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:09:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JM9q8R001164; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:09:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:09:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> References: <43CFFE6B.2070001@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5453BC64-E0CA-4C2D-A68D-A73619C2C839@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: A proposed letter to the Yale Newspaper Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:06:05 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 19, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: > Jed has suggested another letter to the Yale Newspaper and that > several people have expressed an interest in signing such letter. > I believe we have beat the reality of cold fusion to death and need > to raise the issue to a new level. Therefore, I have provided > another letter and ask if anyone would like to sign this before it > is sent to the Yale Newspaper. I would be happy to sign it, but that would only detract from its value as I am a person with no credentials and, even worse, an author of easily assailable lunatic fringe rantings. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 15:44:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JMwpF4025059; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:58:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JMwntk025013; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:58:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:58:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060119225731.72448299E4@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:57:31 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey, nice work! This is something I've been meaning to get around to for years. M. ========Original Message========== After reading Bill Beaty's comments, I took another stab at it, and actually got a result! With a #6B artist's pencil I drew (free-hand) two dark solid lines on a sheet of printer paper, about 200 mm long and about 2.5 mm apart. I checked them, and each line was electrically "intact" (#6 pencil marks have a tendency to leave electrical gaps if one isn't careful). I connected to the marks with alligator clips -- which were verified to make decent contact in these conditions -- and put the paper in series with a 10M resistor (paralleled with a 100pf capacitor), with 9 volts across the lot. I read out the voltage on the resistor through an op-amp, amplified 1000x, and got a reading of about 3.5 volts, which wandered around a lot. Breathing on the paper sent the reading off-scale; it recovered slowly. Laying a thumb across the marks shot it off-scale as well. 3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. Dividing that by the width of the strip and multiplying by the length, that comes out to a (surface) resistivity of about 2000 gigohms for 20 pound 100% recycled ink-jet paper. At some point I'll try it again with somewhat better-controlled conditions, including trying to get connections to _both_ sides of the paper rather than just one side -- though that shouldn't actually make much difference. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 15:46:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JMoIN3020919; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:50:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JMiBDX018186; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:44:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:44:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c61d49$d3f51430$4b037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: A proposed letter to the yale Newspaper Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:43:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61D17.88CE1BA0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61D17.88CE1BA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C61D17.88CE1BA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C61D17.88CE1BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Ed, There are certain truisms about the subject of Cold Fusion. Scientific research and knowledge gained is cumulative by publishing = results of failures and success of basic research. Ever rising worldwide interest and continued research adds to the = empirical data base toward furthering new energy studies and results. Continued financial investment in new forms of energy is stimulated. Ancilliary research is being stimulated by continued research in cold = fusion and variants. Fallout from existing research in cold fusion is beginning to impact = industrial product development not related to cold fusion. The simple challenge and work ethic driving cold fusion research is a = refreshing emphasis to postulate the question.. why the opposition to = the financial resources and brainpower being directed toward basic = research ? Does anyone question a launch to Pluto and the return on = investment by NASA? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C61D17.88CE1BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Ed,
 
There are certain truisms about the subject of Cold Fusion.
 
Scientific research and knowledge gained is cumulative by = publishing=20 results of failures and success of basic research.
 
Ever rising worldwide interest and continued research adds to the = empirical=20 data base toward furthering new energy studies and results.
 
Continued financial investment in new forms of energy is = stimulated.
 
Ancilliary research is being stimulated by continued research in = cold=20 fusion and variants.
 
Fallout from existing research in cold fusion is beginning to = impact=20 industrial product development not related to cold fusion.
 
The simple challenge  and work ethic driving cold fusion = research is a=20 refreshing emphasis to postulate the question.. why the = opposition to=20 the financial resources and brainpower being directed toward basic = research ?=20 Does anyone question a launch to Pluto and the return on investment by=20 NASA?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C61D17.88CE1BA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61D17.88CE1BA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c61d49$d3627120$4b037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C61D17.88CE1BA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 15:51:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JNo3TZ017737; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:51:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JNffxj014204; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:41:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:41:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: Airborne Backpack Blower Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:41:17 -1000 Message-ID: <007601c61d51$dd0e0d80$8e01a8c0@dtqf101> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20060119164202.33138.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There was something out years ago on investigation into chordwise blowing for otherwise conventional fixed wings, sometimes with arrays of suction holes, or even a wide suction vent at the trailing edge. Seemed promising there for a minute, then faded away. Maybe it didn't justify all the complexity for the gains registered, or it didn't work in the rain or something. Might work better at lower speeds and surface areas like an ultralight. There have been a number of schemes involving Magnus effect over the years, some involving lighter-than-air craft, and also boat 'sails'. I remember seeing the Halcyone (sp?) here a while back, one of the Cousteau Society boats. 10hp motor drove this big smokestack looking thing - that was their sail. Worked ok on a boat, not sure if it would fly. - R. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 16:02:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JNb6VJ012009; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:37:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JNb3FE011945; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:37:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060119183446.03422350@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060119181841.035c3b08@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:36:29 -0500 To: CMNS , vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another response to Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [I suppose this eliminates any possibility that she will respond favorably. Too bad! I couldn't resist. - JR] - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear Ms. Satterwhite, Let me add that in his correspondence with me, Mr. Lemonick retracted many of the statements he made in your magazine. For example, he conceded that the other researchers have made similar claims, although he said: "It may be that others have produced cold fusion since, but that's not the same thing." Since your own author has backed down and refuted what he wrote, I think it is odd that you still claim you "correctly described" the situation. I think it is also apparent from his letters that Mr. Lemonick has not read the relevant scientific literature on this subject. My correspondence with Mr. Lemonick is summarized here: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm I would be happy to send you the complete set of letters. While we are on the subject, I think Time magazine should also apologize for comparing Martin Fleischmann to Josef Mengele. Perhaps even you will agree that was exaggerated, and they do not belong in the same class of people. Fleischmann is a Fellow of the Royal Society, after all. This was also somewhat insensitive. Fleischmann's father died a few days after he was tortured and then (inexplicably) released by the Gestapo, and Fleischmann barely managed to escape to England, so he did not appreciate your comparison. See: http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/other/unsung2.html - Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 16:09:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0JNPY3U005731; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:25:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0JNPU5s005658; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:25:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> References: <8C7E9CF0386B359-F34-17BDD@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c61bc5$c1bf8820$3f029d04@oemcomputer> <7.0.0.16.2.20060118091256.03447478@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:24:22 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Gaia Scientist: DO PANIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I wrote: And Jed Rothwell responded > >>>2. CO2 is the big target at the moment. When we switch to hydrogen-fired >>>cars, how long do you bet it will take before there is a big "green" push to >>>limit H2O vapor emissions? > >This suggestion (made by someone else) is ridiculous. It is a comic >book caricature of environmentalism. One of the Vortexians made this suggestion, tongue in cheek. >>Their next strategy will be to limit manmade thermo emissions. I >>just heard that manmade gas emissions account for only two percent >>of the total. > >Where did you hear this? It seems unlikely, because in the first >world, fossil fuel energy generation produces twice as much carbon >dioxide as plant growth absorbs. I have a friend who says that he hopes that our efforts don't meet with any success, because of man made thermo suggestions. I decided to make another tongue in cheek remark about it. >I suggest you stop spreading rumors about environmentalism, and try >to stick to critiquing actual statements made by real >environmentalists, rather than a strawman version. One of the interviewees on C to C AM was talking about under ocean volcanos, which he asserted were contributing more CO2 98% more than human activity. I have heard that the Sun is putting out more energy. According to Hal Lindsey, space.com has confirmed this. IMHO the two factors should at least be considered before you get your undies in a bundle about human activity causing global warming. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 16:54:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K0s0s8014542; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:54:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K0rt1E014476; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:53:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:53:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:50:44 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This has not made it back to me for over 4 hours so here goes again: On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time > lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order > to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to > something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a > ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, > for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally > lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of > several months. > Interesting about the speed independence. Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin paradox, and relativity in general. SR appears to be based solely on observational differences, i.e. retardation. This is true of Jefimenko's view also, except possibly for relativistic mass changes. However, in the case of the returned twin, the two twins stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration (GR effects), and the journey consisted of only brief acceleration phases, followed by long segments of uniform motion, then it seems that the final clock difference from a long journey would be the same as that of a short journey with the same accelerations and no coasting. You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. He calculates the speed of various natural clocks. His calculations for the twelve clocks were based on "the fundamental laws of electromagnetism and mechanics with no input from relativity theory (although we shall use the longitudinal and transverse masses, which may be regarded as either experimentally obtained masses, or as relativistic concepts)" (p. 237) However, his EM equations, based on retardation, are similar to SR based equations. His view is interesting. In the twin paradox, as viewed by Jefimenko, perhaps the "young" twin may have varied aging effects, depending on the mechanics of some specific chemical interactions. Jefimenko's clocks consisted of: 1. A charged particle oscillating in the x axis, the central axis, of an oppositely charged ring. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. 2. Two (outer) particles A and B of the same charge located on the y axis at points +-a, an inner particle C, oppositely charged, oscillates in the x axis between the two particles and near the midpoint. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. 3. Same as 2, but the motion of C is in the y axis, the two like particles A and B are located in the z axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. 4. The time delta t it takes for two charges to separate (in the y axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. If t_y is the time it takes for the same separation to occur in the y axis, then t/t_y = gamma. 5. This clock is similar to clock 4, except one charge is replaced by a long line of charge of uniform line density lambda, lying in the z axis and having its midpoint at the origin. The point charge of opposite sign is placed on the y axis at initial distance R from the origin. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. 6. This clock is similar to to Clock 2, except charges A and B are replaced with line charges in the yz plane parallel to the z axis. All of the above clocks appear to run gamma times slower than the identical stationary clock, so t_moving = gamma * t_observer. All the following clocks run at a different rate. 7. This clock is the same as Clock 3, but A and B are placed at points +-a on the x axis. Charge C oscillates in the y axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(5/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(5/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. 8. This clock is similar to Clock 5, except the line charge is now placed on the x axis with the midpoint at the origin. Again, the point charge of opposite sign is placed on the y axis at initial distance R from the origin. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. 9. This clock is similar to Clock 3, except the two point charges A and B are replaced with line charges that are parallel to the x axis and are at distance +-a from the origin in the xz plane. The point charge C of opposite sign oscillates about the origin in the y axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. 10. The time delta t it takes for a charge to separate from a plate of surface charge density lambda, of the same polarity, lying in the xy plane to separate (in the y axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Relative irection of motion is in the x axis. If t_y is the time it takes for the same separation to occur in the y axis, then t/t_y = gamma. The point charge C of opposite sign oscillates about the origin in the y axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. 11. The time delta t it takes for a charge to separate from a plate of surface charge density lambda, of the same polarity, lying in the yz plane to separate (in the x axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. (This is similar to Clock 10, but rotated so the particle moves in the x axis.) Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. If t_y is the time it takes for the same separation to occur in the y axis, then t/t_y = gamma. The point charge C of opposite sign oscillates about the origin in the y axis. Relative direction of motion is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. 12. This clock is similar to Clock 4, except rotated into the x axis. The time delta t it takes for two charges to separate (in the x axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Motion of the charges is in the x axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. This clock is similar to Clock 4, except rotated into the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(5/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(5/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 18:50:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K2oCU7010419; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:50:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K2eMOr005529; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:40:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:40:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wSGQ9F60H3sFfksnjYpO+2nT2WZpw7pxchymEngCiqFmD0ioUFGDuARo/Tcue6JQ13XukVrYz+s4quPJZO37Cn078f0b2kN1dCBrA+3JRigbpZHHq3P1ELqFMiY50x7C1Jui1bb/UTDs04pAxKNPTOMDczjctje0q5KbouE3sjQ= ; Message-ID: <20060120024012.30922.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43CFF53A.5030808@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Stephen >> Why _not_ use a diesel in the Prius? > !!! Well, what's the answer? Indeed it is a big step in the right dirrection. In fact, it would take little re-engineering at all. Toyota already makes the same sized engine in a diesel config for the Euro market. Identical block it seems. http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/profiles_html/t/toyota/page6.html Jones BTW - one version of this engine gets over 60 MPG and that is without the hybrid advantage of using batteries only for city stop-and-go. This would surely apporach the magic 100 goal in a hybrid version with some lighter weight components - includding the EEStor "bettery".... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 19:36:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K3aLwd000717; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:36:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K3aHfs000661; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:36:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:30:55 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7EB890EC17E6B-1ED4-5F1D@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <20060120024012.30922.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hybridizing and the "Bettery" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene --- Stephen >> Why _not_ use a diesel in the Prius? > !!! Well, what's the answer? Indeed it is a big step in the right dirrection. <><><><><><> The issue is acccccccceleration! It's simply a marketing issue. Europeans already buy Diesels and the manufacturers are pissed that they should build Diesel hybrids. Americans love zooooom. Hybrids are not Otto cycle engines and Diesel cycle offers little gain! Also, as I have posted frequently, PHEVs are supressed by Cobasys. But, hang on a bit, the Japs are about to kick ass with lithium thanks to nanotech. Transitional metals will soon be history. F*** Chevron! Eat my voltage, Exxon! ~"100 years ago you were riding camels and living in tents. 100 years from now you will be doing the same." -"Syriana" :-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 19:46:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K3eFr0002789; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:46:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K3aN72000728; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:36:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:36:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:34:37 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes replied >Hi Richard, > >The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at >$6 million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by >the end of this quarter. I'm glad to hear that you're getting close to fabricating a wire Mark > >Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy >storage application. We would expect to work with them and cross >license any patents they develop. I've heard you talk about the potential for doing things like magnetic levitation, which I assume would involve winding a coil out of it. Your post raised a question about ultra capacitors. If you were to fabricate a plate of your material, and sandwitch it between a layer of high dielectric strength material, would it be possible to produce a ultra capacitor? When we had the tread about ultra capacitors, I read the pages of the manufactures of the existing ultra capacitors. As I recall, they were operating at a rather low voltage, 2 volts, I'm wondering why so low voltage? As I recall, the amount of energy that a capacitor can store is directly related to the voltage. > >Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., >(www.magneticpowerinc.com) expects to license generators widely >beginning later this year, candidate firms for developing the UMES >are likely to emerge synergistically. Are you talking about a F E generator? In the remainder of this message the diesel motor was mentioned. Unfortunately the additional cost of a diesel motor just about compensates for the fuel that it saves. As for a Wankel, they are no more efficient than any other I C E. IMHO, the only way that this technology will ever appeal to joe sixpack, AKA the average guy, is when it saves more money than it costs. Till then hybrids will appeal to the Volvo Democrats, which isn't all bad, they've got money. > >As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the >dot.com crash, has delayed what could have been in production by >now...had there been sufficient availability of the necessary >capital. > >Mark > >>From: "RC Macaulay wrote >> >>Hi Mark, >>Please give us an update on your comments regarding UMES. What is a UMES? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 19 19:46:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K3eFr2002789; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:46:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K3Zeug000416; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:35:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D05A79.8030406@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:35:21 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > This has not made it back to me for over 4 hours so here goes again: > > On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time >> lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order >> to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to >> something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a >> ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, >> for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally >> lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of >> several months. >> > > Interesting about the speed independence. > > Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some > years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin > paradox... Ding, ding! I think I just heard my cue! :-) > , and relativity in general. SR appears to be based solely on > observational differences, i.e. retardation. This is true of > Jefimenko's view also, except possibly for relativistic mass > changes. However, in the case of the returned twin, the two twins > stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference > frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that > difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the > "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration That's a useful way to think of it, at least in the sense that it's the acceleration which breaks the symmetry and resolves the apparent logical paradox: the twins are _not_ identical, and the one whose path diverged from a geodesic is the older twin. But it's not the whole story, as you also observed. > (GR effects), No GR needed! One can get more than adequately confused just using SR here. GR is only necessary when there's gravity. Otherwise you can do it all using flat-space concepts, maybe with a little bit of tensor calculus thrown in. But the real hair of GR is the curvature tensor and everything related to it and we absolutely don't need that stuff in this case. Furthermore in GR you can never ask how old someone is unless they're standing right next to you, which takes all the fun out of it. > and the journey consisted of only brief acceleration phases, > followed by long segments of uniform motion, then it seems that the > final clock difference from a long journey would be the same as that > of a short journey with the same accelerations and no coasting. OK, let's go with that for a moment. If the period of acceleration is negligibly short, then all we really have to worry about is the period when the moving twin is coasting. So what happens then? A simple answer is that the acceleration jumps the moving twin into a different frame of reference. During the outbound trip, before turnaround, each twin sees the other growing older more slowly. It's exactly symmetric. But even that is a misleading statement, because they're not standing next to each other; they each actually only _compute_ the other to be aging more slowly. And when the traveling twin turns around, suddenly his frame of reference changes radically. Once he's finished turning around, if he redoes his calculation, he now computes that the stay-at-home twin is much older than he previously computed. During the trip home, the stay-at-home twin seems to the traveler to be aging slowly again, but it's not enough to make up for what (seems to have) happened during turnaround. (Before continuing, I should mention that I have a web page on the "linear twins" problem which _might_ be of some slight interest. If nothing else it is unusual in that I didn't use any Lorentz transforms in working it out:) http://www.physicsinsights.org/linear_twins.html But wait ... before you say anything about the irrelevance of the coast phase in the picture I'm presenting here, let's recall a vitally important truism in relativity: Acceleration does _NOT_ affect time! If the twins are next to each other and one is accelerating rapidly, that makes no difference. BUT when the distant twin turns around, they're _not_ next to each other. Strangely, your OWN acceleration causes distant clocks to be _computed_ to run FAST if you accelerate toward them, or SLOW (... or backward ...) if you accelerate away from them. And the farther away the other party is, the bigger the impact your acceleration has on how rapidly they seem to age. So that's the missing piece: It's acceleration COMBINED with distance that makes the magic, and the distance at which the traveler accelerates is determined by how long he coasted for. Less coasting => acceleration takes place closer to home => it has less effect. By no small coincidence, I happen to have a little page on this too; if you've never seen the calculation showing time running backwards it's worth a peek: http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_astronaut.html But wait ... wait ... what if you look at those distant clocks in a telescope while you're accelerating? What will you see? Surely the hands on the clocks won't be seen whizzing around frentically in one direction or the other? No, they won't, but something equally strange will appear to happen. If you watch a clock as you accelerate toward it, you'll see it continue to tick normally ... as it zooms _away_ from you at very high velocity! (And this is a _classical_ effect!! It's' _NOT_ unique to special relativity!) And _that_ is the final piece that lets us fit the computed solution to the paradox into the picture which is actually seen by the traveling astronaut: when he's finished accelerating he _observes_ that the stay-at-home twin is now coming toward him going very fast, but coming from much farther away than he previously thought; when he adds the time the light signal must have taken to traverse the apparent distance of the new image to the time he sees on the face of the clock in the telescope, he gets a much later date than what he found before accelerating. And by golly I've got a few words on a web page on this aspect, too: http://www.physicsinsights.org/porthole_view_1.html The pieces of the picture all do end up fitting together, but they never, as far as I know, can be made to make "intuitive sense". Finally, if you are a glutton for punishment, I've got a page on the computed solution to the twins problem taking full account of acceleration. It's got some nice graphs down at the bottom, after all the equations. http://www.physicsinsights.org/accelerating_twins.html Ironically, after all that work on the accelerating twins page, I stopped short of doing the traveler's porthole view and hence missed the bizarre behavior of the image in the telescope; the porthole_view_1 page came much, much later. I had some ideas for some additional spacetime graphs which would have pulled together the porthole and computed views on a full round-trip but I never got around to doing them. > You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and > Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the > relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function > of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. Perhaps, but doesn't this make rather nasty hash of the principle of relativity? I.e., it suggests that physical laws change rather dramatically as a result of a change in speed, which seems peculiar. In other words, if I'm carrying two different kinds of clocks, and I take off in a spaceship, I would then see the two clocks running at different rates. This would be disturbing, particularly if the two clocks happened to be represented by two different enzyme reaction paths in my body... > He calculates the > speed of various natural clocks. > > His calculations for the twelve clocks were based on "the > fundamental laws of electromagnetism and mechanics with no input > from relativity theory (although we shall use the longitudinal and > transverse masses, which may be regarded as either experimentally > obtained masses, or as relativistic concepts)" (p. 237) Erk. Yeah, I'd say that's a relativistic concept. As to being "experimentally derived" you could say just about all of SR falls into that category at this point, anyway. By the way, either the transverse or longitudinal mass calculation (forget which off hand) is the site of the only error I know of in Einstein's 1905 electrodynamics paper; he botched the derivation and got a formula wrong. It's close to the end, and I've got a reference to it buried someplace in old email if anyone's interested. Nobody cares these days because nobody uses longitudinal and transverse mass values for anything anyway AFAIK. > However, his EM equations, based on retardation, are similar to SR > based equations. Well they should be -- the E&M equations are the foundations Einstein built relativity on, after all! And the retarded integrals are very fundamental to E&M. > His view is interesting. In the twin paradox, as viewed by > Jefimenko, perhaps the "young" twin may have varied aging effects, > depending on the mechanics of some specific chemical interactions. > > > Jefimenko's clocks consisted of: > > 1. A charged particle oscillating in the x axis, the central axis, > of an oppositely charged ring. Relative direction of motion of the > clock is in the x axis. > > 2. Two (outer) particles A and B of the same charge located on the > y axis at points +-a, an inner particle C, oppositely charged, > oscillates in the x axis between the two particles and near the > midpoint. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x > axis. > > 3. Same as 2, but the motion of C is in the y axis, the two like > particles A and B are located in the z axis. Relative direction of > motion of the clock is in the x axis. > > 4. The time delta t it takes for two charges to separate (in the y > axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by distance > R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Relative direction of motion of the clock is > in the x axis. If t_y is the time it takes for the same separation > to occur in the y axis, then t/t_y = gamma. > > 5. This clock is similar to clock 4, except one charge is replaced > by a long line of charge of uniform line density lambda, lying in > the z axis and having its midpoint at the origin. The point charge > of opposite sign is placed on the y axis at initial distance R from > the origin. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x > axis. > > 6. This clock is similar to to Clock 2, except charges A and B are > replaced with line charges in the yz plane parallel to the z axis. > > All of the above clocks appear to run gamma times slower than the > identical stationary clock, so t_moving = gamma * t_observer. All > the following clocks run at a different rate. I'm sorry, I got rather lost at this point and did not try to dig through the derivations of the last six clock rates. But unless he's found a contradiction in SR or E&M I don't see how any valid clock could be _computed_ to tick at a rate different from 1/gamma. So do I understand this? He is suggesting that there is an absolute stationary frame, the principle of relativity is false, and one can determine ones absolute velocity by observing various kinds of clocks? But we still need to deal with Maxwell's equations, we need to figure out what happens when a moving observer applies Maxwell's equations, and we need to come to terms with the Michelson-Morley and Sagnac experiments, and that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room if we also want mechanics to be described by reasonably simple and consistent laws... > 7. This clock is the same as Clock 3, but A and B are placed at > points +-a on the x axis. Charge C oscillates in the y axis. > Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here > t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(5/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(5/2) times > the rate for the same stationary clock. > > 8. This clock is similar to Clock 5, except the line charge is now > placed on the x axis with the midpoint at the origin. Again, the > point charge of opposite sign is placed on the y axis at initial > distance R from the origin. Relative direction of motion of the > clock is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * > t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary > clock. > > 9. This clock is similar to Clock 3, except the two point charges A > and B are replaced with line charges that are parallel to the x axis > and are at distance +-a from the origin in the xz plane. The point > charge C of opposite sign oscillates about the origin in the y axis. > Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. Here > t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times > the rate for the same stationary clock. > > 10. The time delta t it takes for a charge to separate from a plate > of surface charge density lambda, of the same polarity, lying in the > xy plane to separate (in the y axis) a small fixed distance d when > initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Relative > irection of motion is in the x axis. If t_y is the time it takes > for the same separation to occur in the y axis, then t/t_y = > gamma. The point charge C of opposite sign oscillates about the > origin in the y axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is > in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * t_observer, or > gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. > > 11. The time delta t it takes for a charge to separate from a plate > of surface charge density lambda, of the same polarity, lying in the > yz plane to separate (in the x axis) a small fixed distance d when > initially separated by distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. (This is > similar to Clock 10, but rotated so the particle moves in the x > axis.) Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. > If t_y is the time it takes for the same separation to occur in the > y axis, then t/t_y = gamma. The point charge C of opposite sign > oscillates about the origin in the y axis. Relative direction of > motion is in the x axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(3/4) * > t_observer, or gamma^(3/2) times the rate for the same stationary > clock. > > 12. This clock is similar to Clock 4, except rotated into the x > axis. The time delta t it takes for two charges to separate (in the > x axis) a small fixed distance d when initially separated by > distance R. The ratio d/r ~ 0. Motion of the charges is in the x > axis. Relative direction of motion of the clock is in the x axis. > This clock is similar to Clock 4, except rotated into the x > axis. Here t_moving = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^(5/4) * t_observer, or > gamma^(5/2) times the rate for the same stationary clock. > > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 00:18:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K8IOXf028322; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:18:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K8IMiK028309; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:18:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:18:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060120081813636.9B6563400082@mwinf3116.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060120081814.00a1974c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:18:14 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:50 pm 19/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: >This has not made it back to me for over 4 hours so here goes again: > >On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >> >> The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time >> lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order >> to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to >> something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a >> ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, >> for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally >> lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of >> several months. >> >Interesting about the speed independence. I think one has to be careful what one means by speed independence here. In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. If you go towards the setting sun then it is not that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. Going round towards the rising sun slow running will be increased. But the difference in speed between planes and ships is small compared to light speed. If one projected a caesium clock at close to the speed of light relative to the absolute frame of reference for motion then its speed would slow right down since mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance around the globe clockwise is different from that around the globe widdershins. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 01:29:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0K9KFEm022708; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:28:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0K9HmQC020764; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:17:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:17:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D05A79.8030406@pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> <43D05A79.8030406@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5CD726DC-098E-4689-B4AD-BB2D38D269C4@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:15:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 19, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip a lot of good stuff] > http://www.physicsinsights.org/linear_twins.html [snip a lot more] Actually I have a lot of interest but no time to really dig into this. However, I must say that it does seem to me that the issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, and such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the critical issues. The difficult math seems to me to disappear in a flash! 8^) No longer are fancy transforms and distance functions required. Further, we can look at each flash from earth as a single photon. As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the photons arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the same reason, the wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on earth appears to the traveler to slow down. However, no matter what kinds of accelerations the traveler has experienced or is experiencing, he keeps receiving his regular periodic set of photons from earth. The only thing that changes are the time increments sensed by the traveler between photons, and their colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from earth, there are always photons in route from earth to the traveler. As the traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he absorbs those photons increases, and he sees a blue shift as well, for the same reason, i.e. the wave peaks arrive faster. The earth increments its clock each time a photon is transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board "earth clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, fewer photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the traveler's on board clock was not affected by his acceleration, his "earth time" clock and local clock will come back in synchronization. Further, his earth time clock and earth's clock will be in perfect synchronization upon arrival. If not, the number of photons sent and the number received can not match, which is nonsense. The only other way for the traveler's clock to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth time" clock for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been affected by the acceleration. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 06:13:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KE0GEp021710; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:01:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KDvgR1019747; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 05:57:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 05:57:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D0E779.3000305@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:36:57 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060120081814.00a1974c@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060120081814.00a1974c@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > At 03:50 pm 19/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > > >>This has not made it back to me for over 4 hours so here goes again: >> >>On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> >>>The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time >>>lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order >>>to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to >>>something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a >>>ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, >>>for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally >>>lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of >>>several months. >>> > > > >>Interesting about the speed independence. > > > > > I think one has to be careful what one means by > speed independence here. Here's what we mean by that: Consider a rotating disk. Select a point on the perimeter. Send two signals around the disk, starting from that point, circumnavigating the disk, and returning to that point (which has, of course, moved by the time the signals get back to it). Make sure the two signals travel at the same speed relative to the rim of the disk. The signal which went around in the same direction as the disk's rotation will arrive back at the start _after_ the signal which went the other way around. The difference in the arrival times is a function of the rotation rate of the disk, but it is _not_ a function of the speed of the signal. Fast signal, slow signal, the absolute delay between the return of the signal on the "fast" path and the return of the signal on the "slow" path is the same. As I mentioned previously, this can be demonstrated without the use of any clocks, and in fact it is demonstrated all the time. Current generation inertial navigation systems use ring-laser gyroscopes which only work as a result of this effect. In a ring-laser gyro the signal is a a light pulse carried in a fiber optic cable, and it travels at roughly 3/4 C relative to the rim of the disk. The signal speed is the same in both directions, relative to the disk (signal speed on a moving body is trivial to measure, and if it weren't invariant with respect to the motion, moving computers would not work). The arrival time difference is measured by looking at interference fringe shifts between the counter-traversing pulses, and it's used to determine the rate at which the disk is turning, which datum is used by the navigation system. It's sometimes claimed that the Sagnac effect is difficult to explain in special relativity, or that the math is a horrible mess. That's not true. The effect is actually pretty simple; in fact it can be explained in a few pictures without a (whole) lot of messy math. See here: http://physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html In a nutshell, the rotation doesn't make a difference; straighten out the path so it's just a long straight rod that's being traversed, and it becomes a lot more obvious what's going on. > > In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its > surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere > which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. > If you go towards the setting sun then it is not > that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow > running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed > is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. > Going round towards the rising sun slow running will > be increased. > > But the difference in speed between planes and ships > is small compared to light speed. If one projected > a caesium clock at close to the speed of light > relative to the absolute frame of reference for > motion then its speed would slow right down since > mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path > velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). > > The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered > merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter > insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then > you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance > around the globe clockwise is different from that around > the globe widdershins. Ring-laser gyros make hardly any sense, it's true. You're right. However, they exist and they work. All of special relativity has this problem: Intuitively it's absurd. But it's born out by an enormous mass of experimental data. But there's a point you may have missed in the "airplane" experiment. The two aircraft don't arrive back at the starting point at the same moment. According to each airplane's onboard clock, the time to go around the world was the same -- that doesn't depend on the direction! And so neither does the distance the airplane traveled. What changes is how long it takes in Earth-minutes for the planes to go around the world. At the point at which the planes meet -- which is _NOT_ the starting point, because they got back to the start at different times -- they really have traveled different distances, and their clocks really do show different readings. There's no contradiction and little surprise in that. The odd thing is that the don't get back to the starting point at the same time. > > Frank Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 06:46:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KEjxjR009413; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:45:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KEjvIw009394; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:45:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:45:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.7] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:45:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2006 14:45:48.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[33B375C0:01C61DD0] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: thomas malloy >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future >Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:34:37 -0600 > >>Hello again Richard, >> >>The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at $6 >>million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by the end of >>this quarter. > > >I'm glad to hear that you're getting close to fabricating a wire Mark > >> >>Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy storage >>application. We would expect to work with them and cross license any >>patents they develop. > > >I've heard you talk about the potential for doing things like magnetic >levitation, which I assume would involve winding a coil out of it. Your >post raised a question about ultra capacitors. If you were to fabricate a >plate of your material, and sandwitch it between a layer of high dielectric >strength material, would it be possible to produce a ultra capacitor? When >we had the tread about ultra capacitors, I read the pages of the >manufactures of the existing ultra capacitors. As I recall, they were >operating at a rather low voltage, 2 volts, I'm wondering why so low >voltage? As I recall, the amount of energy that a capacitor can store is >directly related to the voltage. At one time we looked at capacitor applications and concluded it was not anything we could afford to do. A licensee might be able to afford it. > >> >>Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., (www.magneticpowerinc.com) >>expects to license generators widely beginning later this year, candidate >>firms for developing the UMES are likely to emerge synergistically. > >Are you talking about a F E generator? Yes. However, F E is a misnomer as >there are always capital costs. PV is an excellent example. Most cannot >afford it. >> >>As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the dot.com >>crash, has delayed what could have been in production by now...had there >>been sufficient availability of the necessary capital. >> >>Mark >> >>>From: "RC Macaulay wrote > >What is a UMES? A SMES (Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage) system >that uses our polymer, ambient tmperature, Ultraconductors. Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 07:19:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KFIuxv024139; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:18:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KFIs7m024120; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:18:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D05A79.8030406@pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <43CFC826.5030903@pobox.com> <43D05A79.8030406@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <781A5629-F07B-4816-A830-1AB2E32AE4A5@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:16:29 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This was sent 6 hours ago, but never showed up, so here goes again. On Jan 19, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip a lot of good stuff] > http://www.physicsinsights.org/linear_twins.html [snip a lot more] If a one dimensional photon counting clock model, as laid out just prior, makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make sense as well, assuming he has a very high Isp drive, like a ZPE drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he simply does not see any photons from earth. This does not mean he is traveling backwards in time. It only means his communication with earth is cut off (unless of course he has some spooky action at a distance communication device.) When he the traveler turns around, he eventually starts receiving the photons again, but very much blue shifted. When traveling faster than light relative to earth, his earth clock merely stops, it doesn't run backwards. His own local clock, however, keeps on ticking. Again, without some change in the traveler's clock due to acceleration, all the clocks must be in synchronization upon his return. Hows that for angel's advocate? 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 09:10:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KHADxc006425; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:10:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KGicRF028208; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:44:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:44:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WTtgvDxPWbP3HmVS39QtEeFRuayMuJmdfmu1XuWHTF2xIqqDHM1aD0EGc5QKcnDnzE0zK0DctCyhif9HyUmTNUPBjRIWfY6Ekw6NjET6CWxqbMBFNyjFCo7BmN+p2kkZQA1cXTCH5o5LZp+nOyf/R5ME8RgCRQtUn9Cg2++BR94= ; Message-ID: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:44:27 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43D0E779.3000305@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, because the planes fly at equivalent speeds WRT the Earth, which is a rotating frame of reference, when they get back to the geographical starting place (which has moved), they arrive at the same "local" time and according to Hafele's experimentally obtained data the clocks do not agree. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > Grimer wrote: > > At 03:50 pm 19/01/2006 -0900, Horace wrote: > >>This has not made it back to me for over 4 hours > so here goes again: > >> > >>On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>The speed of the flights is not a factor, either > -- the same time > >>>lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. > However, in order > >>>to keep the precision with which one needs to > keep time down to > >>>something manageable, it's important to go > quickly. If you used a > >>>ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of > using an airplane, > >>>for instance, the tiny difference in the readings > would be totally > >>>lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks > over a period of > >>>several months. > >>> > >>Interesting about the speed independence. > > > > I think one has to be careful what one means by > > speed independence here. > > Here's what we mean by that: > > Consider a rotating disk. Select a point on the > perimeter. > > Send two signals around the disk, starting from that > point, > circumnavigating the disk, and returning to that > point (which has, of > course, moved by the time the signals get back to > it). Make sure the > two signals travel at the same speed relative to the > rim of the disk. > > The signal which went around in the same direction > as the disk's > rotation will arrive back at the start _after_ the > signal which went the > other way around. The difference in the arrival > times is a function of > the rotation rate of the disk, but it is _not_ a > function of the speed > of the signal. Fast signal, slow signal, the > absolute delay between the > return of the signal on the "fast" path and the > return of the signal on > the "slow" path is the same. > > As I mentioned previously, this can be demonstrated > without the use of > any clocks, and in fact it is demonstrated all the > time. Current > generation inertial navigation systems use > ring-laser gyroscopes which > only work as a result of this effect. In a > ring-laser gyro the signal > is a a light pulse carried in a fiber optic cable, > and it travels at > roughly 3/4 C relative to the rim of the disk. The > signal speed is the > same in both directions, relative to the disk > (signal speed on a moving > body is trivial to measure, and if it weren't > invariant with respect to > the motion, moving computers would not work). The > arrival time > difference is measured by looking at interference > fringe shifts between > the counter-traversing pulses, and it's used to > determine the rate at > which the disk is turning, which datum is used by > the navigation system. > > It's sometimes claimed that the Sagnac effect is > difficult to explain in > special relativity, or that the math is a horrible > mess. That's not > true. The effect is actually pretty simple; in fact > it can be explained > in a few pictures without a (whole) lot of messy > math. See here: > > http://physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html > > In a nutshell, the rotation doesn't make a > difference; straighten out > the path so it's just a long straight rod that's > being traversed, and it > becomes a lot more obvious what's going on. > > > > > > In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its > > surface) is moving in relation to the > Beta-atmosphere > > which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. > > If you go towards the setting sun then it is not > > that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow > > running will be reduced to a minumum when the > speed > > is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. > > Going round towards the rising sun slow running > will > > be increased. > > > > But the difference in speed between planes and > ships > > is small compared to light speed. If one projected > > > a caesium clock at close to the speed of light > > relative to the absolute frame of reference for > > motion then its speed would slow right down since > > mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path > > velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). > > > > The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be > altered > > merely by flying it around the globe shows the > utter > > insanity of using it to define length. If you do, > then > > you end up with the ludicrous result that the > distance > > around the globe clockwise is different from that > around > > the globe widdershins. > > Ring-laser gyros make hardly any sense, it's true. > You're right. > However, they exist and they work. All of special > relativity has this > problem: Intuitively it's absurd. But it's born > out by an enormous > mass of experimental data. > > But there's a point you may have missed in the > "airplane" experiment. > The two aircraft don't arrive back at the starting > point at the same > moment. According to each airplane's onboard clock, > the time to go > around the world was the same -- that doesn't depend > on the direction! > And so neither does the distance the airplane > traveled. What changes is > how long it takes in Earth-minutes for the planes to > go around the world. > > At the point at which the planes meet -- which is > _NOT_ the starting > point, because they got back to the start at > different times -- they > really have traveled different distances, and their > clocks really do > show different readings. There's no contradiction > and little surprise > in that. The odd thing is that the don't get back > to the starting point > at the same time. > > > > Frank Grimer Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 10:33:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KIUWpe012378; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:32:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KHS0Z2015226; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:28:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:28:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c61de6$d1e50a90$49037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:27:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, J_CHICKENPOX_72,J_CHICKENPOX_82,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mark, In another post I mentioned an idea emerged for a better method of sealing a rotating shaft. The present method uses a mechanical deal. An ideal seal would not make contact ( seat with face) and provide absolute leak tight sealing for use with exotics that cannot be released.to atmosphere, For some years we have been doing design studies on magnetic sealing ideas. A form of an ultraconductor may provide the missing link. So you may realize your work may have " fallout" in other engineering disciplines.One never knows when an idea is mentioned how that idea can provide stimulation to another. . I mentioned to Steven Krivit we developed a new control valve for extreme wide range precision metering of liquids, gasses and powders.by studying a quirky needle valve designed years ago. We tried every idea to reduce the length of the needle without success. One day someone suggested trying forming the needle in a circle configuration. That was sucha dumb idea until we considered the needle need not be a needle per se... but the impression of a needle. My wife is a gifted artist and the idea came from her impressionist work where something is seen by its absence. All basic research results in cumulative knowledge gained. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" To: Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. > >From: thomas malloy >>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future >>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:34:37 -0600 >> > >>>Hello again Richard, >>> >>>The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at $6 >>>million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by the end >>>of this quarter. >> >> >>I'm glad to hear that you're getting close to fabricating a wire Mark >> >>> >>>Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy storage >>>application. We would expect to work with them and cross license any >>>patents they develop. >> >> >>I've heard you talk about the potential for doing things like magnetic >>levitation, which I assume would involve winding a coil out of it. Your >>post raised a question about ultra capacitors. If you were to fabricate a >>plate of your material, and sandwitch it between a layer of high >>dielectric strength material, would it be possible to produce a ultra >>capacitor? When we had the tread about ultra capacitors, I read the pages >>of the manufactures of the existing ultra capacitors. As I recall, they >>were operating at a rather low voltage, 2 volts, I'm wondering why so low >>voltage? As I recall, the amount of energy that a capacitor can store is >>directly related to the voltage. > > At one time we looked at capacitor applications and concluded it was not > anything we could afford to do. A licensee might be able to afford it. >> >>> >>>Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., (www.magneticpowerinc.com) >>>expects to license generators widely beginning later this year, candidate >>>firms for developing the UMES are likely to emerge synergistically. >> >>Are you talking about a F E generator? Yes. However, F E is a misnomer >>as there are always capital costs. PV is an excellent example. Most >>cannot afford it. >>> >>>As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the >>>dot.com crash, has delayed what could have been in production by >>>now...had there been sufficient availability of the necessary capital. >>> >>>Mark >>> >>>>From: "RC Macaulay wrote >> >>What is a UMES? A SMES (Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage) system >>that uses our polymer, ambient tmperature, Ultraconductors. > > Mark > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 11:48:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KJlhjo015305; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:47:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KJlfH6015280; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:47:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:47:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601201947.k0KJlPLZ061420@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:47:24 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: The Fundamentals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_e874430cec04c2534a59be35812a820c" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_e874430cec04c2534a59be35812a820c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NOTE: The following post was also submitted to the Hydrino HSG group. ************************************************************* Recent conversations between Dr. Zimmerman and rvirkus2000 on modeling molecules bring to mind the vast chasm of perception that can exist in the definitions of how reality is theoretically defined. Of course, such schisms in human perceptivity are nothing new. A recent highly-entertaining if not occasionally exasperating debate conducted on Larry King Live between two conservative Christian theologians and two gay activists (one of them a former mayor) concerning the merits (or lack of) of the award winning movie "Broke Back Mountain" make that crystal clear. I had always enjoyed what I perceived as a certain level of vagueness in how SQM seems to have assembled the fundamental building blocks of nature. I think it leaves lots of wiggle room for different interpretations of both scientific and philosophical inclinations. Many aspects of SQM, that is, those aspects that I could comprehend, always appealed to the deepest recesses of my being where TAOist and eastern philosophical tendencies lurked. "Pop" physics books written for the mathematically challenged (that includes me!), titles such as "Dancing WuLi Masters", by Gary Zukav and "The TAO of Physics", by Fritjof Capra, took advantage of vagaries that probability and statistics seemed to suggest. It seemed to me that "Bell's Theorem" was a venerable gold mind allowing many a philosopher and occultist to pontificate that the universe must exist in the guise of a "multi-dimensional" creature, and that every part of the universe must simultaneously "know" what the rest of its qua! ntum twitching body is doing. Everything is "singular". We are all ONE. Oh, what a warm fuzzy feeling that gave me! Then, comes along a gadfly who has the audacity to suggest that we can replace huge chunks of a sacred century's worth of accumulated statistical curve fitting, replacing them with a number of fundamental mathematical models. And all hell breaks loose. Critics of the "new order" have been quick to retaliate, explaining what they perceive are countless flaws in the gadfly's fundamendalistic equations. According to many those alleged mathematical flaws prove that the new order attempting to explain the building blocks of reality are fatally tainted. After all, how much confidence can one put in a model of an orbitsphere that appears to be as unstable as Larry Niven's gigantic RinglWorld, where a gigantic spinning band of real estate circles a distant star and huge ram jets affixed at the edges are the only thing keeping it from careening into the sun it orbits, and in the process exterminating a gaggle of harmless (and not-so-harmless) life scuttling about on the surface. Why would I want to buy into a brand spanking new theoretical model of the universe that on the surface may turn out to be as rigid and fundamental in its interpretation of nature as listening to the two conservative Christian theologians pontificate on Larry King Live that only bad things will come to America if we don't get back to following the Divine Laws laid down in the Bible and, instead, succumb to the temptations of learning "acceptance" and giving the same fundamental rights to individuals who practice alternative life styles. I realize many SQM proponents (and perhaps some CQM proponents as well!) may detest my crass attempt associate the ongoing HSG debate with the preservation of "Family Values" versus evil "Alternative Live Styles." After all, which side of the fence am I on! Meanwhile, the gadfly has recently claimed that his band of dedicated followers are "...currently hosting third-party validators and duplicating our systems so other scientists can run the cells in their labs." There was also a recent article which stated "...calorimeter boxes [at BLP labs] are running at commercial power intensities right now, generating over 100 times the energy of combustion of hydrogen gas." Is any of this true? Will I be forced to abandon my cherished beliefs in the freedom of statistical probabilities, or the possibility of alternative universes, or being -one- with an all-knowing "singular" quantum-twitching universe? Where will I get my warm fuzzy fix? Somewhere in the Book of CQM, there also exists a grandiose explanation describing the fate of the universe, where I learn of a vast never-ending Grand Cycle. We learn of an accelerated expansion followed by a contraction phase - like the slow swinging pendulum of a grandfather clock. How long does it take this fundamentalistic universe to breath in and out? Apparently, gazillions and bazillions of years! Fortunately for me Judgment Day, if it ever comes, is a tad distant. That should give me ample time to safely continue my reverie of the advantages of statistical curve fitting and being -ONE- with the universe without fear of reprisals from the coming CQM Judgment Day. Looks like I might be able to hold on a bit longer to the warm fuzzies while wiggling my exposed toes next to the radiant heat receiveth from my K-Mart BLP space heater. Hot chocolate anyone? I'll get the marshmallows. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * With apologies to Dr. Mills & BLP, aka the gadfly. References: http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10749 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/message/63 Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_e874430cec04c2534a59be35812a820c Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NOTE: The following post was also submitted to the Hydrino HSG group.

*************************************************************

Recent conversations between Dr. Zimmerman and rvirkus2000 on modeling mole= cules bring to mind the vast chasm of perception that can exist in the defi= nitions of how reality is theoretically defined. Of course, such schisms in= human perceptivity are nothing new. A recent highly-entertaining if not oc= casionally exasperating debate conducted on Larry King Live between two con= servative Christian theologians and two gay activists (one of them a former= mayor) concerning the merits (or lack of) of the award winning movie "Brok= e Back Mountain" make that crystal clear.

I had always enjoyed what I perceived as a certain level of vagueness in ho= w SQM seems to have assembled the fundamental building blocks of nature. I = think it leaves lots of wiggle room for different interpretations of both s= cientific and philosophical inclinations. Many aspects of SQM, that is, tho= se aspects that I could comprehend, always appealed to the deepest recesses= of my being where TAOist and eastern philosophical tendencies lurked. "Pop= " physics books written for the mathematically challenged (that includes me= !), titles such as "Dancing WuLi Masters", by Gary Zukav and "The TAO of Ph= ysics", by Fritjof Capra, took advantage of vagaries that probability and s= tatistics seemed to suggest. It seemed to me that "Bell's Theorem" was a ve= nerable gold mind allowing many a philosopher and occultist to pontificate = that the universe must exist in the guise of a "multi-dimensional" creature= , and that every part of the universe must simultaneously "know" what the r= est of its quantum twitching body is doing. Everything is "singular". We ar= e all ONE. Oh, what a warm fuzzy feeling that gave me!

Then, comes along a gadfly who has the audacity to suggest that we can repl= ace huge chunks of a sacred century's worth of accumulated statistical curv= e fitting, replacing them with a number of fundamental mathematical models.= And all hell breaks loose. Critics of the "new order" have been quick to r= etaliate, explaining what they perceive are countless flaws in the gadfly's= fundamendalistic equations. According to many those alleged mathematical f= laws prove that the new order attempting to explain the building blocks of = reality are fatally tainted. After all, how much confidence can one put in = a model of an orbitsphere that appears to be as unstable as Larry Niven's g= igantic RinglWorld, where a gigantic spinning band of real estate circles a= distant star and huge ram jets affixed at the edges are the only thing kee= ping it from careening into the sun it orbits, and in the process extermina= ting a gaggle of harmless (and not-so-harmless) life scuttling about on the= surface.

Why would I want to buy into a brand spanking new theoretical model of the = universe that on the surface may turn out to be as rigid and fundamental in= its interpretation of nature as listening to the two conservative Christia= n theologians pontificate on Larry King Live that only bad things will come= to America if we don't get back to following the Divine Laws laid down in = the Bible and, instead, succumb to the temptations of learning "acceptance"= and giving the same fundamental rights to individuals who practice alterna= tive life styles. I realize many SQM proponents (and perhaps some CQM propo= nents as well!) may detest my crass attempt associate the ongoing HSG debat= e with the preservation of "Family Values" versus evil "Alternative Live St= yles." After all, which side of the fence am I on!

Meanwhile, the gadfly has recently claimed that his band of dedicated follo= wers are "...currently hosting third-party validators and duplicating our s= ystems so other scientists can run the cells in their labs." There was also= a recent article which stated "...calorimeter boxes [at BLP labs] are runn= ing at commercial power intensities right now, generating over 100 times th= e energy of combustion of hydrogen gas." Is any of this true? Will I be for= ced to abandon my cherished beliefs in the freedom of statistical probabili= ties, or the possibility of alternative universes, or being -one- with an a= ll-knowing "singular" quantum-twitching universe? Where will I get my warm = fuzzy fix?

Somewhere in the Book of CQM, there also exists a grandiose explanation des= cribing the fate of the universe, where I learn of a vast never-ending Gran= d Cycle. We learn of an accelerated expansion followed by a contraction pha= se - like the slow swinging pendulum of a grandfather clock. How long does = it take this fundamentalistic universe to breath in and out? Apparently, ga= zillions and bazillions of years! Fortunately for me Judgment Day, if it ev= er comes, is a tad distant. That should give me ample time to safely contin= ue my reverie of the advantages of statistical curve fitting and being -ONE= - with the universe without fear of reprisals from the coming CQM Judgment = Day. Looks like I might be able to hold on a bit longer to the warm fuzzies= while wiggling my exposed toes next to the radiant heat receiveth from my = K-Mart BLP space heater.

Hot chocolate anyone? I'll get the marshmallows.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

With apologies to Dr. Mills & BLP, aka the gadfly.

References:

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3D10749
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCQM/message/63


Regards

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com --=_e874430cec04c2534a59be35812a820c-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 14:14:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KMAqlk012643; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:14:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KM1jtc008809; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:01:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:01:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=LsAGGmj2FJ4DdnPMn3ZRrXU96tN4GTzfFwO3lBvVn1PfOfvIcMDvCqmi9WjnLqGR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061520135657930@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 20, 2006 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:56:57 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d820e5fe1a7b5c217c98ac4cfd9c7bfad285e0aeacdf564a64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.91.148 Resent-Message-ID: <65lpOB.A.lJC.J3V0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 1/20/2006 9:34:39 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 20, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 20 Jan 06 Washington, DC 1. SHAMIFLU: CAN THE ANTIVIRAL DRUG HALT AN EPIDEMIC OF BIRD FLU? We said earlier that there is little evidence that Tamiflu can stop a pandemic http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn112505.html A study published yesterday in the medical journal Lancet comes to the same conclusion. However, according to the Wall Street Journal, demand continues to soar as nations stockpile the drug. The Defense Department has also stockpiled Tamiflu. Among those profiting is Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, former Chairman of Gilead Sciences, which owns the rights to Tamiflu. 2. INFORMERS NEEDED: FINANCIAL HELP FOR STUDENTS WITH AN ATTITUDE A UCLA alumni group headed by a former campus Republican leader is offering students up to $100 per class to keep tabs on radical professors. It's not clear how the information is to be used. 3. RHIC: BROOKHAVEN COLLIDER WILL OPERATE ON PRIVATE DONATION. When the new budget failed to meet soaring energy costs, the lab planned to turn off the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider for 2006. That's when James Simons, who is a board member of the organization that operates Brookhaven, spearheaded an effort that raised $13M privately to keep RHIC operating. Simons happens to also be the billionaire founder of Renaissance Technologies, a private investment firm. It's nice that there are rich people willing to spend their money that way, but basic physics research shouldn't have to rely on charity. 4. THE DOVER EFFECT: 2006 IS STARTING OUT THE WAY 2005 ENDED. The Christmas Miracle in 2005 was Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn122305.html . This week, the El Tejon school system in rural California agreed to halt the course on intelligent design at Frazier Mountain High mentioned in last week's WN. The minister's wife who taught the course said it all: "This is the class that the Lord wanted me to teach." On Wednesday, the Dover decision was characterized by the official Vatican newspaper as "correct." At the Discovery Institute they may be worrying about structural unemployment. 5. NUCLEAR TERRORISM: CHIRAC WARNS OF NUCLEAR RESPONSE SORT OF. The president of France is trying to convince Iranians that he might use nuclear weapons to retaliate against terrorism. This may be a poor strategy for dealing with Iran's strange president, who is intent on building nuclear weapons of his own. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a religious looney, seems to be anxious to collect a martyr's reward in the next life. 6. NASA: SUCCESS IN SCIENCE PROGRAMS IS MET WITH CUTS AND DELAYS. Successful launch of the New Horizons spacecraft to Pluto and the return of comet dust by the brilliantly innovative Stardust space capsule coincided with warnings from Mike Griffin that hard times are coming for science. The Webb Space Telescope launch is pushed out to at least 2013, leaving us blind to the heavens. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 14:41:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KLwlO2007224; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:58:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KLwhX7007193; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:58:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D154FB.3030002@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:24:11 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: > Actually, because the planes fly at equivalent speeds > WRT the Earth, which is a rotating frame of reference, > when they get back to the geographical starting place > (which has moved), they arrive at the same "local" > time Not right. See below. > and according to Hafele's experimentally obtained > data the clocks do not agree. But that's right. The problem with the first item is that the clocks disagree by some tiny amount -- say, a millionth of a second (I'm guessing but probably close). So, one of the two planes actually arrived a microsecond before the other one. Such a small difference in arrival times of physical aircraft can't be measured!! At 500 mph the nose of the plane moves 0.009 inches in a microsecond. Using any earthly measurement system the planes will _appear_ to arrive back at their starting points simultaneously. Indeed, the imprecision in the _starting_ locations of the two aircraft is surely many orders of magnitude larger than the difference in the location at which they actually met when they came back to home base again. The only thing which _can_ be measured is the difference in their clock readings. That's straightforward by comparison -- both planes land, and you put the clocks next to each other and compare them. Or do it by radio before they land - either way it's easy. If you want to actually observe the fact that they don't arrive back at together at the starting point at the same moment, you need to use something smaller and more precise than aircraft, like light pulses, whose arrival time can be measured _precisely_. And when that's done, you do indeed observe that the arrival times, according to local clocks, are different. As I've already pointed out, that's the principle on which ring-laser gyros are based -- if it were not true they would not work. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 14:43:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0KM3Apg009398; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:03:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0KM36UV009368; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:03:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:03:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <001001c61de6$d1e50a90$49037841@xptower> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:02:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2006 22:03:00.0758 (UTC) FILETIME=[4760EB60:01C61E0D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: "RC Macaulay" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. >Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:27:41 -0600 > >Hi Mark, >In another post I mentioned an idea emerged for a better method of sealing >a rotating shaft. The present method uses a mechanical deal. An ideal seal >would not make contact ( seat with face) and provide absolute leak tight >sealing for use with exotics that cannot be released.to atmosphere, For >some years we have been doing design studies on magnetic sealing ideas. A >form of an ultraconductor may provide the missing link. So you may realize >your work may have " fallout" in other engineering disciplines.One never >knows when an idea is mentioned how that idea can provide stimulation to >another. Interesting idea. We know there must be a multitude of applications that will surprise us. This is surely a possible one. Best, Mark >. I mentioned to Steven Krivit we developed a new control valve for extreme >wide range precision metering of liquids, gasses and powders.by studying a >quirky needle valve designed years ago. We tried every idea to reduce the >length of the needle without success. One day someone suggested trying >forming the needle in a circle configuration. That was sucha dumb idea >until we considered the needle need not be a needle per se... but the >impression of a needle. My wife is a gifted artist and the idea came from >her impressionist work where something is seen by its absence. >All basic research results in cumulative knowledge gained. >Richard >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" >To: >Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:45 AM >Subject: Re: Electron flywheels etc. > > >> >From: thomas malloy >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>Subject: Re: Electron flywheels - perhaps four years in the future >>>Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:34:37 -0600 >>> >> >>>>Hello again Richard, >>>> >>>>The first task is to develop wire. That is a three year program at $6 >>>>million/year = $18 million. We expect to begin that program by the end >>>>of this quarter. >>> >>> >>>I'm glad to hear that you're getting close to fabricating a wire Mark >>> >>>> >>>>Once wire exists, a licensee is likely to focus on the energy storage >>>>application. We would expect to work with them and cross license any >>>>patents they develop. >>> >>> >>>I've heard you talk about the potential for doing things like magnetic >>>levitation, which I assume would involve winding a coil out of it. Your >>>post raised a question about ultra capacitors. If you were to fabricate a >>>plate of your material, and sandwitch it between a layer of high >>>dielectric strength material, would it be possible to produce a ultra >>>capacitor? When we had the tread about ultra capacitors, I read the pages >>>of the manufactures of the existing ultra capacitors. As I recall, they >>>were operating at a rather low voltage, 2 volts, I'm wondering why so low >>>voltage? As I recall, the amount of energy that a capacitor can store is >>>directly related to the voltage. >> >>At one time we looked at capacitor applications and concluded it was not >>anything we could afford to do. A licensee might be able to afford it. >>> >>>> >>>>Since our parent firm, Magnetic Power Inc., (www.magneticpowerinc.com) >>>>expects to license generators widely beginning later this year, >>>>candidate firms for developing the UMES are likely to emerge >>>>synergistically. >>> >>>Are you talking about a F E generator? Yes. However, F E is a misnomer >>>as there are always capital costs. PV is an excellent example. Most >>>cannot afford it. >>>> >>>>As with the energy work, the paucity of Angel investment since the >>>>dot.com crash, has delayed what could have been in production by >>>>now...had there been sufficient availability of the necessary capital. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>> >>>>>From: "RC Macaulay wrote >>> >>>What is a UMES? A SMES (Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage) system >>>that uses our polymer, ambient tmperature, Ultraconductors. >> >>Mark >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 17:22:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0L1KBvd023972; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:21:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0L0LGKv001073; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:21:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d9001c61e1a$3d3d0530$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Altered method extends bubble-fusion claim Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:35:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0D8C_01C61DF0.508974E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0D8C_01C61DF0.508974E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0D8D_01C61DF0.508974E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0D8D_01C61DF0.508974E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Altered method extends bubble-fusion claim Peter Weiss A technique that some scientists claim generates thermonuclear fusion in = a benchtop apparatus works even without its controversial neutron = trigger. So say the researchers who, since 2002, have reported that = nuclear-fusion reactions can occur in a vat of chilled solvent agitated = by ultrasound (SN: 3/6/04, p. 149: Available to subscribers at = http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040306/fob5.asp). If this method = of sparking fusion proves to be valid-a big if, critics insist-it could = lead to a remarkably simple, cheap, inexhaustible power source.=20 Fusion reactions take place in the vat because clusters of bubbles form = and then violently collapse, explains nuclear engineer and team leader = Rusi P. Taleyarkhan of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind. A = neutron or another energetic particle triggers a bubble to form in a = low-pressure trough of the ultrasound waves, he says. Then, high = pressure from the wave crushes the orb to an enormous density and = temperature that fuse some atomic nuclei of the bubble's gas.=20 Taleyarkhan and his colleagues have measured neutron emissions as a sign = of fusion reactions. Because the group had used neutron pulses to = trigger the process, other researchers have been skeptical of its = neutron readings.=20 In an upcoming Physical Review Letters, Taleyarkhan's team presents = evidence of fusion in bubbles initiated by a uranium-based trigger that = emits alpha particles instead of neutrons. "We got away from the idea of = using neutrons to produce neutrons," Taleyarkhan notes.=20 Nonetheless, the findings still face intense skepticism. Criticisms = range from doubts about experimental procedures to quarrels with = interpretations of the data. "I simply do not find the results = significant and/or believable," comments physicist Dan Shapira of Oak = Ridge (Tenn.) National Laboratory.=20 Critics note that Taleyarkhan's team admits in its report that its = experimental outcomes vary greatly, many of them producing no evidence = of fusion. Yet to D. Felipe Gaitan of Impulse Devices in Grass Valley, = Calif., the uneven outcomes are encouraging. They "could explain our = inability, and that of other researchers so far, to replicate = [Taleyarkhan's] results consistently," says Gaitan. Impulse Devices = plans to commercialize bubble fusion.=20 Lawrence A. Crum of the University of Washington in Seattle says that = the new work "increases the credibility" of bubble fusion. But "unless = it's reproduced in someone else's lab, I'm not going to believe it," he = adds.=20 Taleyarkhan claims that his team's findings were independently verified = last year by other Purdue researchers, whom he guided. Other physicists = are unconvinced.=20 A welcome consequence of the latest results, Crum adds, is that other = researchers should find the uranium-based triggering method easier to = reproduce than the neutron one. So, he says, the new work "is an = important step toward determining if the results of Rusi's experiments = are true."=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- If you have a comment on this article that you would like = considered for publication in Science News, send it to = editors@sciencenews.org. Please include your name and location. =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 To subscribe to Science News (print), go to = https://www.kable.com/pub/scnw/ subServices.asp. To sign up for the free weekly e-LETTER from Science News, go to = http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/subscribe_form.asp. References: Shapiro, D., and M. Saltmarsh. 2002. Nuclear fusion in collapsing = bubbles-is it there? An attempt to repeat the observation of nuclear = emissions from sonoluminescence. Physical Review Letters 89(Sept. = 2):104302. Abstract available at = http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v89/e104302. Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. In press. Nuclear emissions during = self-nucleated acoustic cavitation. Physical Review Letters. Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. 2004. Additional evidence of nuclear emissions = during acoustic cavitation. Physical Review E 69():036109. Abstract = available at http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevE.69.036109. Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. 2002. Evidence for nuclear emissions during = acoustic cavitation. Science 295(March 8):1868-1873. Available at = http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/295/5561/1868. Xu, Y., and A. Butt. 2005. Confirmatory experiments for nuclear = emissions during acoustic cavitation. Nuclear Engineering and Design = 235:1317-1324.=20 Further Readings: Weiss, P. 2005. Brutal bubbles: Collapsing orbs rip apart atoms. Science = News 167(March 5):147. Available at = http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050305/fob1.asp. ______. 2004. Bubble fusion: Once-maligned claim rebounds. Science News = 165(March 6):149. Available to subscribers at = http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040306/fob5.asp. ______. 2002. Violent chemistry saps sonobubble energy. Science News = 162(Aug. 24):125. Available to subscribers at = http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020824/note15.asp. ______. 2002. Star in a jar? Hints of nuclear fusion found-maybe. = Science News 161(March 9):147. Available at = http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020309/fob1.asp.=20 Sources: Lawrence A. Crum Center for Industrial and Medical Ultrasound Applied Physics Laboratory University of Washington 1013 NE 40th Street Seattle, WA 98105 D. Felipe Gaitlin Impulse Devices, Inc. Grass Valley Corporate & Research Office 13366 Grass Valley Avenue, Unit H Grass Valley, CA 95945 Dan Shapira Oak Ridge National Laboratory P.O. Box 2008 Mailstop Code 6368 Oak Ridge, TN 37831-6368 Rusi P. Taleyarkhan School of Nuclear Engineering 400 Central Drive Purdue University W. Lafayette, IN 47907-2017 http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060121/fob7.asp ------=_NextPart_001_0D8D_01C61DF0.508974E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Altered method extends = bubble-fusion=20 claim

Peter Weiss

A technique that some scientists claim generates thermonuclear fusion = in a=20 benchtop apparatus works even without its controversial neutron trigger. = So say=20 the researchers who, since 2002, have reported that nuclear-fusion = reactions can=20 occur in a vat of chilled solvent agitated by ultrasound (SN: 3/6/04, p. = 149:=20 Available to subscribers at http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20040306/fob5.asp).=20 If this method of sparking fusion proves to be valid=97a big if, critics = insist=97it=20 could lead to a remarkably simple, cheap, inexhaustible power source.=20

Fusion reactions take place in the vat because clusters of bubbles = form and=20 then violently collapse, explains nuclear engineer and team leader Rusi = P.=20 Taleyarkhan of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind. A neutron or = another=20 energetic particle triggers a bubble to form in a low-pressure trough of = the=20 ultrasound waves, he says. Then, high pressure from the wave crushes the = orb to=20 an enormous density and temperature that fuse some atomic nuclei of the = bubble's=20 gas.=20

Taleyarkhan and his colleagues have measured neutron emissions as a = sign of=20 fusion reactions. Because the group had used neutron pulses to trigger = the=20 process, other researchers have been skeptical of its neutron readings.=20

In an upcoming Physical Review Letters, Taleyarkhan's team = presents=20 evidence of fusion in bubbles initiated by a uranium-based trigger that = emits=20 alpha particles instead of neutrons. "We got away from the idea of using = neutrons to produce neutrons," Taleyarkhan notes.=20

Nonetheless, the findings still face intense skepticism. Criticisms = range=20 from doubts about experimental procedures to quarrels with = interpretations of=20 the data. "I simply do not find the results significant and/or = believable,"=20 comments physicist Dan Shapira of Oak Ridge (Tenn.) National Laboratory. =

Critics note that Taleyarkhan's team admits in its report that its=20 experimental outcomes vary greatly, many of them producing no evidence = of=20 fusion. Yet to D. Felipe Gaitan of Impulse Devices in Grass Valley, = Calif., the=20 uneven outcomes are encouraging. They "could explain our inability, and = that of=20 other researchers so far, to replicate [Taleyarkhan's] results = consistently,"=20 says Gaitan. Impulse Devices plans to commercialize bubble fusion.=20

Lawrence A. Crum of the University of Washington in Seattle says that = the new=20 work "increases the credibility" of bubble fusion. But "unless it's = reproduced=20 in someone else's lab, I'm not going to believe it," he adds.=20

Taleyarkhan claims that his team's findings were independently = verified last=20 year by other Purdue researchers, whom he guided. Other physicists are=20 unconvinced.=20

A welcome consequence of the latest results, Crum adds, is that other = researchers should find the uranium-based triggering method easier to = reproduce=20 than the neutron one. So, he says, the new work "is an important step = toward=20 determining if the results of Rusi's experiments are true."=20

If you have a comment on this = article that you=20 would like considered for publication in Science News, send = it to=20 editors@sciencenews.org.=20 Please include your name and location. =

To subscribe to Science News = (print), go to https://www.kable= .com/pub/scnw/=20 subServices.asp.

To sign up for the free weekly e-LETTER = from=20 Science News, go to http://www.s= ciencenews.org/pages/subscribe_form.asp.

References:

Shapiro, D., and M. Saltmarsh. 2002. Nuclear fusion = in=20 collapsing bubbles=97is it there? An attempt to repeat the observation = of nuclear=20 emissions from sonoluminescence. Physical Review Letters 89(Sept. = 2):104302. Abstract available at http://link.aps.org= /abstract/PRL/v89/e104302.

Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. In press. Nuclear = emissions=20 during self-nucleated acoustic cavitation. Physical Review = Letters.

Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. 2004. Additional = evidence of=20 nuclear emissions during acoustic cavitation. Physical Review E=20 69():036109. Abstract available at http://dx.doi.org/1= 0.1103/PhysRevE.69.036109.

Taleyarkhan, R.P., et al. 2002. Evidence for = nuclear=20 emissions during acoustic cavitation. Science 295(March = 8):1868-1873.=20 Available at http://= www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/295/5561/1868.

Xu, Y., and A. Butt. 2005. Confirmatory experiments = for=20 nuclear emissions during acoustic cavitation. Nuclear Engineering and = Design 235:1317-1324.

Further Readings:

Weiss, P. 2005. Brutal bubbles: Collapsing orbs rip = apart=20 atoms. Science News 167(March 5):147. Available at http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20050305/fob1.asp.

______. 2004. Bubble fusion: Once-maligned claim = rebounds.=20 Science News 165(March 6):149. Available to subscribers at http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20040306/fob5.asp.

______. 2002. Violent chemistry saps sonobubble = energy.=20 Science News 162(Aug. 24):125. Available to subscribers at http://w= ww.sciencenews.org/articles/20020824/note15.asp.

______. 2002. Star in a jar? Hints of nuclear = fusion=20 found=97maybe. Science News 161(March 9):147. Available at http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20020309/fob1.asp.=20

Sources:

Lawrence A. Crum
Center for Industrial and = Medical=20 Ultrasound
Applied Physics Laboratory
University of = Washington
1013 NE=20 40th Street
Seattle, WA 98105

D. Felipe Gaitlin
Impulse Devices, Inc.
Grass = Valley=20 Corporate & Research Office
13366 Grass Valley Avenue, Unit = H
Grass=20 Valley, CA 95945

Dan Shapira
Oak Ridge National = Laboratory
P.O. Box=20 2008
Mailstop Code 6368
Oak Ridge, TN 37831-6368

Rusi P. Taleyarkhan
School of Nuclear = Engineering
400=20 Central Drive
Purdue University
W. Lafayette, IN 47907-2017


http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20060121/fob7.asp
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Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:17:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:17:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0L2Hf4U016065 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:35:01 -0500: Hi, [snip] All op-amp's have a leakage current. How much resistance do you measure with one of the alligator clips disconnected? >After reading Bill Beaty's comments, I took another stab at it, and >actually got a result! > >With a #6B artist's pencil I drew (free-hand) two dark solid lines on a >sheet of printer paper, about 200 mm long and about 2.5 mm apart. I >checked them, and each line was electrically "intact" (#6 pencil marks >have a tendency to leave electrical gaps if one isn't careful). I >connected to the marks with alligator clips -- which were verified to >make decent contact in these conditions -- and put the paper in series >with a 10M resistor (paralleled with a 100pf capacitor), with 9 volts >across the lot. > >I read out the voltage on the resistor through an op-amp, amplified >1000x, and got a reading of about 3.5 volts, which wandered around a >lot. Breathing on the paper sent the reading off-scale; it recovered >slowly. Laying a thumb across the marks shot it off-scale as well. > >3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. > >Dividing that by the width of the strip and multiplying by the length, >that comes out to a (surface) resistivity of about 2000 gigohms for 20 >pound 100% recycled ink-jet paper. > >At some point I'll try it again with somewhat better-controlled >conditions, including trying to get connections to _both_ sides of the >paper rather than just one side -- though that shouldn't actually make >much difference. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 20 20:06:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0L3vXQu026298; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:57:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0L3vVrd026276; Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D1AF59.50502@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:49:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! References: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 > 08:35:01 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > > All op-amp's have a leakage current. How much resistance do you > measure with one of the alligator clips disconnected? Infinite. (Exactly 0, sort of ... but it wanders around a bit....) I tweaked the voltage on the inverting input on the opamp which reads the signal in order to zero it (see diagram below). The offset voltage for the opamp appears to be on the order of a millivolt, which times 1000x is on the order of a volt. Without the tweak the "null reading" was somewhere between about -1/2 and +1 volt; the exact value depended on which particular opamp I used. The voltage response _ought_ to be pretty much linear, so with the tweak in place it _ought_ to read correctly for small inputs. Or at least, I think so. Note that the voltage across the paper will be almost exactly 9 volts (<< 1 volt is dropped across R1), so a fraction of a volt offset on the opamp side of it won't make a significant difference to the current through the paper. And that current should show up as an additional voltage on resistor R1 (in diagram below). Leakage current in high-impedence circuits always confuses me but in this case I think it's just showing up as an additional "null" voltage across the 10M resistor, in which case it just looks like part of the voltage offset to me. The circuit's here (more or less): http://physicsinsights.org/images/resistance-circuit.jpg R1 = 10M R3 = 100 ohms R4 = 100K The unnumbered capacitor is 100 pf. The opamps are TL082's The power supply's actually +9/0/-9 and the opamp which splits the 18 volts isn't really there. The volt-ohm meter's an analog model from Lafayette Radio Electronics which kind of dates me, I guess :-) > > >>After reading Bill Beaty's comments, I took another stab at it, and >>actually got a result! >> >>With a #6B artist's pencil I drew (free-hand) two dark solid lines on a >>sheet of printer paper, about 200 mm long and about 2.5 mm apart. I >>checked them, and each line was electrically "intact" (#6 pencil marks >>have a tendency to leave electrical gaps if one isn't careful). I >>connected to the marks with alligator clips -- which were verified to >>make decent contact in these conditions -- and put the paper in series >>with a 10M resistor (paralleled with a 100pf capacitor), with 9 volts >>across the lot. >> >>I read out the voltage on the resistor through an op-amp, amplified >>1000x, and got a reading of about 3.5 volts, which wandered around a >>lot. Breathing on the paper sent the reading off-scale; it recovered >>slowly. Laying a thumb across the marks shot it off-scale as well. >> >>3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. >> >>Dividing that by the width of the strip and multiplying by the length, >>that comes out to a (surface) resistivity of about 2000 gigohms for 20 >>pound 100% recycled ink-jet paper. >> >>At some point I'll try it again with somewhat better-controlled >>conditions, including trying to get connections to _both_ sides of the >>paper rather than just one side -- though that shouldn't actually make >>much difference. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 04:58:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LCwJvc029704; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 04:58:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LCw65s029593; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 04:58:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 04:58:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> References: <20060118060132.CFCA2109ED5@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9D8033CE-76F6-4811-BC9B-5A8764614C42@mtaonline.net> From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Blue Anode Glow Observations Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 03:55:36 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0LCvx5s029529 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Jan 17, 2006, at 9:01 PM, Michael Foster wrote: > > I plan to do these same tests at higher voltage and with DC. > Any thoughts on this, Horace? See and , which have been updated since last posted. Some stuff on conditioning follows. A Method for Producing Free Energy The secret to creating free energy electrolytically lies in creating and sustaining an anode glow and doing so under the highest pressure possible. The useful anode glow for creating free energy can be created as described in , but it is desirable to do so under the highest pressure possible. The higher the pressure the more the free energy gained and the higher the coefficient of power (COP). Ideally, the anode glow is comparable in color to the green color of sonoluminescence, as seen in: Obtaining a high signal to noise ratio for heat production, useful for proof of principle, requires obtaining a high voltage drop through the anode interphase in proportion to the current density of the anode. It takes patience and time to reach the highest cell potential that sustains the green anode glow, and how that is obtained depends on the electrode metal, the electrolyte and the electrolyte concentration. It can take a long time to reach maximum operating voltage. A procedure useful for amateurs to create the green anode glow follows. To avoid the need for extra resistance in series with the cell adjust the electrolyte (titrate) conductivity by gradually adding more of the electrolyte acid, base, or salt to distilled water to the point a desirable current is obtained, i.e. one which is appropriate for the power supply in use. It is useful not to execeed 0.1 mA/cm^2 for initial current density. The process then is this: 1. Gradually increase the voltage to an acceptable current for your supply and then hold the voltage constant. 2. Call the initial current, I_step. Monitor the current. If the current is increasing or arc spots or electrosparks appear, reduce the voltage (and thus current I_step) and repeat this step. 3. If current is decreasing then let I_start = I_step. Give the cell some minutes decreasing current (optimize timing by feel and by patience!) and then increase the cell voltage until the the new current I_step is no more than I_start and go to step 2. When you get to the point the anode can not be further conditioned, you are there. 4. At this point, or even sooner, since cell conductivity is low, more electrolyte acid, base, or salt can be added, and the process begun over. Using a very dilute electrolyte, e.g. 0.01 g/l NaOH, with aluminum electrodes, the maximum anode glow producing cell potential can be well over 500 volts. As the electrode is conditioned the current is reduced. This is desirable for excess energy experiments not only because the voltage is maximized, but the expected signal/power is maximized. It is also desirable to reduce the cell resistance to the lowest possible value that permits sustaining cell operation. This then maximizes the percentage of potential drop across the anode interphase, and thus provides the highest signal to noise ratio, i.e. coefficient of power (COP). Obtaining maximum cell conductivity and cell life may mean operating with an electrolyte different from the one used for initial conditioning. It may be desirable to buffer the pH with a salt, for example, and to raise conductivity. It may be much easier to condition using a fixed current power supply, because that for the most part automatically handles steps 2 through 3, except for monitoring for arc spots (or orange glow). I n that case the current is set and incremented instead of the voltage. A conditioning current density of about 0.1 mA/cm^2 of a weak electrolyte like sodium metasilicate works well in various situations, but it depends on many factors what current density is best, like electrolyte makeup and concentration and electrode material used. The conditioning method provided above compensates for a wide variance of these variables. The objective of conditioning is creating a coating over the anode which prevents conduction by anions except at a high voltage drop across the anode interphase, i.e. except at a gradient sufficient to ionize H2O and OH. Such a potential drop is typically over 100 volts. The key free energy lies beyond merely creating the oxide film of a passivated anode, as described by Bockris. [J. O’M Bockris and A.K.N. Reddy, Modern Electrochemistry, Plenum Press, p.1319 ff.] The process of conditioning the anode must proceed to the point where an insulating barrier is created that permits an electrostatic field intensity sufficient to ionize an OH or H2O molecule. In other words, the surface barrier of the oxide film must be thick enough that electron tunneling to the anode only occurs at a voltage gradient exceeding about 10^11 V/m. The slow conditioning recommended above is not necessary with all electrolytes and plate combinations, but is useful because it tends to achieve a uniform conditioning. If thin or bare spots exist in the anode coating, then shorts can occur through the anode coating which include arcs in DC mode, and arcs or sparks (electrosparks) in AC mode. Such shorts, which are to be avoided, can be created by impurities in the electrodes, or by increasing the voltage to the point the coating is ruptured by sparks or arcs, and the anode then destroyed by corrosion from the resulting arcs. These shorts diminish the current passed through the green glow areas which are effective in creating the free energy, by means discussed in : Improperly conditioned electrodes have arc or spark spots and often take on a red or orange hue before eventually disintegrating due to corrosion. An example of this is explored in: I t is useful that gas evolution in a closed high pressure cell be controlled. One means of doing this is to make the (each) anode concave down, insulated on the top, and oriented so as to trap bubbles coming from the cathode. The anode interphase in glowing mode is effective at recombining the evolved gasses provided the evolution rate is not too high. Not much to it. Free energy by simply producing the right anode glow at high pressure. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 06:52:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LEoFMm014212; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:50:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LEPF6N004082; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:25:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:25:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 15:16:51 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xf" Resent-Message-ID: <-nOkBC.A.u_.KRk0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, Horace, Steve and Terry, Thank you for the most interesting posts. This gives me a lot to think about. Jack Smith --------------- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by electron level transitions. I think the change is due to Beta-atm drag. The earth drags the aether as it rotates. The resulting change in electron resonance is essentially a Doppler effect of the Beta-atm. http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock I actually recently purchased the HP 5071. The spare Cesium tube was $10k. I believe the polar flight *has* been done. I'll see if I can find a reference. Jack Smith wrote: Another interpretation of this data is that the half life increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the clocks are moved in the opposite direction. Terry aka hohlraum wrote: But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by electron level transitions. Frank Grimer wrote: I didn't think they did, Terry. I only gave that example cos if radioactive decay is affected by its environment then one would expect everything on a larger scale to be affected ... Stephen A. Lawrence (salaw@pobox.com) wrote: The mismatched readings from planes going around the world in opposite directions is a consequence of the Sagnac effect. If you want to reproduce it yourself just obtain a laser-ring gyroscope. They're common items, available commercially, used in navigation, and they depend intrinsically on the Sagnac effect. You don't need an airliner to do it, though using an airplane and a clock instead of an interferometer is admittedly far more dramatic. The effect falls out trivially from special relativity. It also falls out of "Lorentz aether theory", which uses the same math as special relativity (so of course it gets the same results). Ballistic theory is killed dead by the Sagnac effect; as far as I know there is no way to patch it up to handle this case. There are no special properties of particular elements nor nuclear transitions involved. It's just that if you want to measure the effect using a clock, rather than using an interferometer to observe wavelength shifts in light, you need to use a very, very precise clock because the effect isn't very large, and right now that means using a cesium clock. Otherwise any old clock would work just as well. The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of several months. Frank Grimer wrote: The following stuff from the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group seems to have been largely covered by other people but I may as well include if for completeness of the archive: ===================================================== fgrimer (f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk) wrote: Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:17 am Subject: The Hafele and Keating Experiments I am sorry to have to subject the readers of this B-atm. group to a chunk of relativity stuff but the point which Webster Kehr expresses so clearly will be crucial to understanding the working of servomechanisms within materials. I confess I was so impressed with the clarity of Kehr's explanation that I congratulated him by e-mail and received an acknowledgement the very next day (ain't the Net a wonderful asset for expediting research). ---------------------------------------- Webster Kehr wrote: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/files/Detection.pdf The Hafele and Keating Experiments The Hafele-Keating experiments of 1971 are among the most famous experiments in the history of physics. Their experiments were designed to test the validity of Einstein's SR and his General Theory of Relativity ("GR"). Hafele and Keating twice flew four cesium atomic clocks around the world in commercial jets, first eastbound, then westbound. Their experiments proved that "time," as measured by atomic clocks, is a function of the direction, velocity and altitude of jet airplanes. The direction and velocity of the airplanes were factors of the SR and the altitude of the jets was a factor of the GR.[8,9,10,11] I should note that "time" in this case is the "actual time" as measured by the atomic clocks. Compared to the time kept by a stationary atomic clock at the U.S. Naval Observatory ("USNO"), which stayed on the ground, the eastbound clocks measured time slower than the stationary clock and the westbound clocks measured time faster than the stationary clock. Prior to their experiments, Hafele correctly predicted that the westbound clocks would measure time faster than the stationary clock.[8,9] The Hafele-Keating experiment is considered a proof that the SR and GR are valid theories. But the H-K used a very different version of the SR than was proposed by Einstein in 1905. For example, in the "old SR" of 1905, every element in the experiment was considered, or could be considered, an "at rest" relative reference frame. This was the entire intent of the concept of "relative reference frames." For example, if there were ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions, any one of these ten airplanes could be used as the "at rest" reference frame, for the formulas of relativity, to determine the "relative time" between it and any of the other planes. ========================================= Comment by Frank: Now this assumption of "ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions" is always what I understood Special Relativity to claim - but as you can see, those slimy bastard relativists shifted the goalposts. ========================================= Webster Kehr wrote: By 1971, however, the concept of "relative reference frames" had been totally eliminated. In the "new SR," used by Hafele and Keating, none of the two sets of jet airplanes or atomic clocks in the experiment were allowed to be considered "at rest." Not even the stationary atomic clock at the USNO could be considered "at rest." In the "new SR" used in the H-K, only one "at rest" reference frame was allowed and that was "a nonrotating observer looking down on the North pole from a great distance" [9] or to put it more simply: "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole." ========================================= Comment by Frank: In other words, an absolute reference frame for rotation with respect to the stars - with respect to the non-curvature of water surface in a bucket to bring it down to the most mundane level. [Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) p. 217 "... relational mechanics predicts the appearance of a real gravitational centrifugal force exerted by the distant universe spinning around the bucket. We can then say that this centrifugal force presses the water against the wall of the bucket making the water rise on this wall until the centrifugal force is balanced by the gradient of pressure." p.259 "... the main lines ... have already been laid down: no absolute space or time; only relational quantities should be involved; all forces should come from interactions between material bodies; for point particles the force should be directed along the line joining them and should obey the principle of action and reaction; ..." p. 261 "... We have been able to eplain the coincidence of Newtonian mechanics that the universe as a whole does not rotate relative to absolute space or to any inertial frame of reference. In other words, we have explained why the kinematical rotation of the earth is identical to its dynamical rotation ... We have derived the fact that all inertial forces of Newtonian mechanics, like the centrifugal force or Coriolis forces, are real forces ... This also explains the concavity in Newton's bucket as due to a relative rotation between the water and the distant universe ..." p 159 ``In our view, the theoretical concepts of length contraction, time dilation, Lorentz invariance, Lorentz's transformations, covariant and invariant laws, Minkowski metric, four-dimensional space-time, energy-momentum tensor, Riemannian geometry applied to physics, Schwarzschild line element, tensorial algebras in four-dimensional spaces, quadrivectors, metric tensor ..., proper time, contravariant four-vectors and tensors, geodetic lines, Christoffel symbols, super strings, curvature of space, etc. have the same role as epicycles in the Ptolemaic theory.''] ========================================= Webster Kehr wrote: This "at rest" reference point was not part of the experiment, meaning there was no atomic clock at that point. The "at rest" point in the H-K was many thousands of kilometers from any of the atomic clocks that were part of the experiment! The entire concept of "relative reference frames" was that any object that was part of the experiment could be considered "at rest." No object in the experiment was ever considered "at rest" by Hafele and Keating. It is important to emphasize that the observer or point is "nonrotating." If the observer rotated with the earth, then a stationary point on the equator, for example, would be viewed as being "at rest" relative to the observer's viewpoint. However, because the observer is not rotating, then a stationary point on the equator would be moving at a velocity equal to the (angular) rotation velocity of the earth at that latitude (i.e. zero degrees north). Thus, the "stationary" clock at the USNO was considered to be in motion due to the rotation of the earth (i.e. its velocity was measured relative to the rotation velocity of the earth at its latitude) because the observer was not rotating.[9] Thus, the "stationary" clock was actually in "motion." Let's call a spade a spade. Hafele and Keating could be said to have used a "local or localized Absolute Reference Frame ("local ARF") and a local or localized Absolute Time." By "absolute" I mean that the "at rest" reference frame they chose was not part of the experiment and did not move (relative to other objects), and did not rotate, during the experiment. By "local" I mean that they did not use the URF [Universal Reference Frame?] of CMBR [Cosmic Background Radiation? which is probably due to absorption and emission by "dust" rather than due to some postulated Big Bang] (which had not been discovered by 1971), or the reference frame of the sun's barycenter (which Hafele and Keating obviously would have known about), or the galactic barycenter (which they should have known about), but instead they used a reference frame within the ionosphere, which is "local" to the earth, meaning it travels with the earth in its motions in the universe. The choice of an "at rest" reference frame thousands of kilometers from the experiment was clearly not the intent of the original SR, but was added by Einstein before or during 1920 when he started talking about the center of a rotating disc as the one and only allowable "at rest" reference point.[12] Einstein's change of mind from using "at rest" reference frames that were part of the experiment, to using a single local ARF (Absolute Reference Frame) that was thousands of kilometers from the objects in the experiment, was undoubtedly due to empirical data. Einstein was known to have been working on the Doppler effect of canal rays (a predecessor to today's atomic clocks) prior to 1908.[13] In fact, the 1919 Nobel Prize was awarded to Johannes Stark for the discovery of the Doppler effect in canal rays, which discovery was made by Stark in 1905.[14] Hafele and Keating did not invent the concept of using an "at rest" reference frame on the extended axis of the earth, they knew what they had to use before they did their experiments. The two articles written by Hafele before the experiment prove that. They knew that if they used the stationary USNO atomic clock as their "at rest" reference point the formulas of the SR would not have worked with the actual data. Even before the H-K it was known that in order to get the formulas of the SR to work it was necessary to pick a localized ARF (Absolute Reference Frame) on the extended axis of the earth. It is probable that the reason Hafele and Keating used "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole," instead of the center of the earth, is because its use made it easier to visualize and explain why the stationary USNO atomic clock had to be in motion. =================================================== Comment by Frank: As usual with "independent thinkers", Webster Kehr has a lot of nutty other ideas which I certainly don't subscribe to. But credit where credit's due - he seems to have nailed the essentials of the HK experiment firmly to the doors of relativity's cathedral - for which insight I am very grateful. On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of several months. Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin paradox, and relativity in general. SR appears to be based solely on observational differences, i.e. retardation. This is true of Jefimenko's view also, except possibly for relativistic mass changes. However, in the case of the returned twin, the two twins stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration (GR effects), and the journey consisted of only brief acceleration phases, followed by long segments of uniform motion, then it seems that the final clock difference from a long journey would be the same as that of a short journey with the same accelerations and no coasting. You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. He calculates the speed of various natural clocks. His calculations for the twelve clocks were based on "the fundamental laws of electromagnetism and mechanics with no input from relativity theory (although we shall use the longitudinal and transverse masses, which may be regarded as either experimentally obtained masses, or as relativistic concepts)" (p. 237) However, his EM equations, based on retardation, are similar to SR based equations. His view is interesting. In the twin paradox, as viewed by Jefimenko, perhaps the "young" twin may have varied aging effects, depending on the mechanics of some specific chemical interactions ... [Jack Smith writes; The following is an abbreviation of a very interesting post which I have completely archived.] On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go ... Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin paradox In the case of the returned twin, the two twins stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration ... Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: That's a useful way to think of it, at least in the sense that it's the acceleration which breaks the symmetry and resolves the apparent logical paradox: the twins are _not_ identical, and the one whose path diverged from a geodesic is the older twin. But it's not the whole story, as you also observed ... Horace Heffner wrote: You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Perhaps, but doesn't this make rather nasty hash of the principle of relativity? I.e., it suggests that physical laws change rather dramatically as a result of a change in speed, which seems peculiar. In other words, if I'm carrying two different kinds of clocks, and I take off in a spaceship, I would then see the two clocks running at different rates. This would be disturbing, particularly if the two clocks happened to be represented by two different enzyme reaction paths in my body ... So do I understand this? He is suggesting that there is an absolute stationary frame, the principle of relativity is false, and one can determine one's absolute velocity by observing various kinds of clocks? ... Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Frank Grimer wrote: I think one has to be careful what one means by speed independence here. In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. If you go towards the setting sun then it is not that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. Going round towards the rising sun slow running will be increased. But the difference in speed between planes and ships is small compared to light speed. If one projected a caesium clock at close to the speed of light relative to the absolute frame of reference for motion then its speed would slow right down since mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance around the globe clockwise is different from that around the globe widdershins. On Jan 19, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: http://www.physicsinsights.org/linear_twins.html Horace wrote: Actually I have a lot of interest but no time to really dig into this. However, I must say that it does seem to me that the issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, and such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the critical issues. The difficult math seems to me to disappear in a flash! 8^) No longer are fancy transforms and distance functions required. Further, we can look at each flash from earth as a single photon. As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the photons arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the same reason, the wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on earth appears to the traveler to slow down. However, no matter what kinds of accelerations the traveler has experienced or is experiencing, he keeps receiving his regular periodic set of photons from earth. The only thing that changes are the time increments sensed by the traveler between photons, and their colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from earth, there are always photons in route from earth to the traveler. As the traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he absorbs those photons increases, and he sees a blue shift as well, for the same reason, i.e. the wave peaks arrive faster. The earth increments its clock each time a photon is transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board "earth clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, fewer photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the traveler's on board clock was not affected by his acceleration, his "earth time" clock and local clock will come back in synchronization. Further, his earth time clock and earth's clock will be in perfect synchronization upon arrival. If not, the number of photons sent and the number received can not match, which is nonsense. The only other way for the traveler's clock to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth time" clock for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been affected by the acceleration. Frank wrote: I think one has to be careful what one means by speed independence here. Steve wrote: Here's what we mean by that: Consider a rotating disk. Select a point on the perimeter. Send two signals around the disk, starting from that point, circumnavigating the disk, and returning to that point (which has, of course, moved by the time the signals get back to it). Make sure the two signals travel at the same speed relative to the rim of the disk. The signal which went around in the same direction as the disk's rotation will arrive back at the start _after_ the signal which went the other way around. The difference in the arrival times is a function of the rotation rate of the disk, but it is _not_ a function of the speed of the signal. Fast signal, slow signal, the absolute delay between the return of the signal on the "fast" path and the return of the signal on the "slow" path is the same. As I mentioned previously, this can be demonstrated without the use of any clocks, and in fact it is demonstrated all the time. Current generation inertial navigation systems use ring-laser gyroscopes which only work as a result of this effect. In a ring-laser gyro the signal is a a light pulse carried in a fiber optic cable, and it travels at roughly 3/4 C relative to the rim of the disk. The signal speed is the same in both directions, relative to the disk (signal speed on a moving body is trivial to measure, and if it weren't invariant with respect to the motion, moving computers would not work). The arrival time difference is measured by looking at interference fringe shifts between the counter-traversing pulses, and it's used to determine the rate at which the disk is turning, which datum is used by the navigation system. It's sometimes claimed that the Sagnac effect is difficult to explain in special relativity, or that the math is a horrible mess. That's not true. The effect is actually pretty simple; in fact it can be explained in a few pictures without a (whole) lot of messy math. See here: http://physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html In a nutshell, the rotation doesn't make a difference; straighten out the path so it's just a long straight rod that's being traversed, and it becomes a lot more obvious what's going on. Frank wrote: In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. If you go towards the setting sun then it is not that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. Going round towards the rising sun slow running will be increased. But the difference in speed between planes and ships is small compared to light speed. If one projected a caesium clock at close to the speed of light relative to the absolute frame of reference for motion then its speed would slow right down since mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance around the globe clockwise is different from that around the globe widdershins. Steve wrote: Ring-laser gyros make hardly any sense, it's true. You're right. However, they exist and they work. All of special relativity has this problem: Intuitively it's absurd. But it's born out by an enormous mass of experimental data. But there's a point you may have missed in the "airplane" experiment. The two aircraft don't arrive back at the starting point at the same moment. According to each airplane's onboard clock, the time to go around the world was the same -- that doesn't depend on the direction! And so neither does the distance the airplane traveled. What changes is how long it takes in Earth-minutes for the planes to go around the world. At the point at which the planes meet -- which is _NOT_ the starting point, because they got back to the start at different times -- they really have traveled different distances, and their clocks really do show different readings. There's no contradiction and little surprise in that. The odd thing is that they don't get back to the starting point at the same time. Horace wrote: If a one dimensional photon counting clock model, as laid out just prior, makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make sense as well, assuming he has a very high Isp drive, like a ZPE drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he simply does not see any photons from earth. This does not mean he is traveling backwards in time. It only means his communication with earth is cut off (unless of course he has some spooky action at a distance communication device.) When he the traveler turns around, he eventually starts receiving the photons again, but very much blue shifted. When traveling faster than light relative to earth, his earth clock merely stops, it doesn't run backwards. His own local clock, however, keeps on ticking. Again, without some change in the traveler's clock due to acceleration, all the clocks must be in synchronization upon his return. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 12:40:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LKeEHk006613; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:40:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LKVC6m002752; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:31:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:31:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 15:29:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: microbial transmutation To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From the personal web site of Ludwik Kowalski. > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/273microbial.html > > A note on microbial transmutation > > Ludwik Kowalski (11/29/05) > > Montclair State University, Montclair, New Jersey > > One of the fields of CMNS (Condensed Matter Nuclear Science) is CT (Cold > Transmutation). And microbial induced transmutation is a small part of that > field. Last year, during the ICCF12 (12th International Conference on Cold > Fusion), I heard about Ukrainian - Russian experiments in that subfield. They > were conducted in a laboratory near Chernobyl. Scientists from the University > of Kiev and university of Moscow were able to transmute radioactive cesium - > 137Cs - into nonradioactive products. Today I learned that more recent > phenomena (in the same laboratory) confirmed the earlier report. Radioactive > salt was dissolved in water and some kind of bacteria, highly resistant to > radiation, were introduced into small (20 cc) flasks. One half of each sealed > flask was filled with the solution while the other half was air. > > Gamma rays emerging from the loaded flasks was observed for 100 days. During > that time radioactivity was reduced, typically by 30%. The half-life of 137Cs, > the most troublesome fission product, is 30 years. With the help of bacteria, > according to the A.A. Kornilova and V.I. Vysockii report, that material can be > eliminated much faster than by natural radioactive decay. Destroying 137Cs, > and other radioactive fission products, would be a tremendous boost to nuclear > electricity. The problem of storage of radioactive waste would be simplified > greatly if Cs and Sr could be destroyed. According to the report, the > reduction of radioactivity, measured by several large Ge detectors, could not > be due to changes in the counting geometry caused by progressive > redistribution of radioactivity. That was my first concern. They used several > large detectors; the total solid angle was about 2*Pi. > > After hearing the news I said that such important invention, if real, would be > a solution of our energy dilemma. Here is how that dilemma was summarized by > Dr. Akito Takahashi, the conference organizer, in the opening talk... For rest visit the url above. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 12:45:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LKiooX009428; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:44:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LKihqd009383; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:44:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:44:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:42:12 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems to me, to understand the "planes around the earth problem" quantitative data is needed. In the absence of such data, it seems reasonable to me that the differences in time can be ascribed in part to the fact the earth clock is rotating. If the earth were not rotating, and the earth had no mass, then the two traveling clocks should show the same final time upon return, and that time should be less than the earth's clock, due to the acceleration the traveling clocks experience. The fact that all three clocks differ must be due in part to the fact the clock going against the earth's rotation must experience much greater accelerations to make the trip, assuming the trips are made in about the same length of time, or assuming that they are made as orbital flights. It takes much more energy and acceleration to perform an east-to-west launch than a west-to-east launch, both on take-off and landing. In a steady state orbital situation, a coasting situation, it is interesting as to which clock might be advancing more rapidly, the earth clock, the east-to-west satellite, or the west-to-east satellite. From the satellite's perspectives, they should experience no acceleration during this interval, while the earth based clock, if in an enclosed box or not, would be, by Einstein's equivalence principle, experiencing acceleration. It thus seems that the longer the flights last, the more time the orbiting clocks should gain over the earth clock. There should not be any *final* difference between the two orbiting clocks due to this coasting part of the journey. Final here means when all three clocks are brought back together. I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 13:00:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LL0H85015311; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:00:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LL0C01015272; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:00:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060121155902.03422370@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:00:05 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: microbial transmutation In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5ROxuD.A.kuD.bDq0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am preparing the ICCF-12 paper by Kornilova and Vysockii. If anyone would like to pitch in and assist I would appreciate it, since I do not know much about this subject. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 14:00:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0LLxf6N005526; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:59:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0LLxcmq005498; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:59:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:59:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D2BAF2.1FF65DDE@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:51:30 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, What do you think of the below? Jack Smith Horace Heffner wrote: It seems to me, to understand the "planes around the earth problem" quantitative data is needed. In the absence of such data ... ------------------------ Source: David de Hilster (david@dehilster.com) ``Dr. Domina Eberle Spencer still has the raw data from the Hafele- Keating experiment (atomic clocks on planes in 1972) which she examined in 1996 and concluded that that data to prove Einstein was fabricated. She is a brilliant mathematician and has agreed to be interviewed on the subject for our documentary film. If you don't know, the Hafele-Keating experiment is the most famous experiment that supposively "proves" time dilation (time slows down) and was done in 1972. The scientists involved sent her the raw data which leaves the conclusion open to other interpretations; but in this case, the conclusion that it supported Einstein's theory is now publicly disputed by Dr. Spencer ...'' From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 16:58:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0M0t0mS012699; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:55:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M0so83012628; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:54:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D2BAF2.1FF65DDE@centurytel.net> References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <43D2BAF2.1FF65DDE@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <83A42DC0-1A5D-4FC0-A803-B6CC72E488E4@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 15:52:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <0UTlPC.A.MFD.Zft0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:51 PM, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Source: David de Hilster (david@dehilster.com) > > ``Dr. Domina Eberle Spencer still has the raw data from > the Hafele- Keating experiment (atomic clocks on planes > in 1972) which she examined in 1996 and concluded that > that data to prove Einstein was fabricated. She is a > brilliant mathematician and has agreed to be interviewed > on the subject for our documentary film. That should be an interesting film, but I doubt anything substantive would be put on film. I hope she publishes. Without the critical data, it is not possible to reach any conclusions. In fact, even with the data, the only conclusion might be there is a need for more data. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 18:19:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0M2Ict7013812; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:18:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M2IYxQ013775; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:18:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:18:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D2EB6E.7060601@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:18:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3GPjsD.A.HXD.5tu0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > It seems to me, to understand the "planes around the earth problem" > quantitative data is needed. In the absence of such data, it seems > reasonable to me that the differences in time can be ascribed in part > to the fact the earth clock is rotating. If the earth were not > rotating, and the earth had no mass, then the two traveling clocks > should show the same final time upon return, and that time should be > less than the earth's clock, due to the acceleration the traveling > clocks experience. Indeed, that's what SR predicts. If all you want is the answer, and if you're willing to assume a "Styrofoam Earth" (no gravity), then there's an easy trick to find all the time rates and final clock readings: Take the point of view of a hypothetical _stationary_ observer at the center of the Earth. Then the clock rates of all three revolving clocks can be computed trivially: they're just 1/gamma times the base rate, where "gamma" is determined by looking at their velocity as observed by the "man in the middle". In this case, gravity just adds a fudge factor which causes "lower" clocks to run slower; for aircraft flying in the atmosphere versus someone standing on the surface, a net altitude difference of about 0.1%, I suspect the "gravity correction" is dwarfed by the other effects. > > The fact that all three clocks differ must be due in part to the fact > the clock going against the earth's rotation must experience much > greater accelerations to make the trip, assuming the trips are made in > about the same length of time, or assuming that they are made as > orbital flights. > > It takes much more energy and acceleration to perform > an east-to-west launch than a west-to-east launch, both on take-off and > landing. > > In a steady state orbital situation, a coasting situation, it is > interesting as to which clock might be advancing more rapidly, the > earth clock, the east-to-west satellite, or the west-to-east > satellite. From the satellite's perspectives, they should experience > no acceleration during this interval, while the earth based clock, if > in an enclosed box or not, would be, by Einstein's equivalence > principle, experiencing acceleration. > > It thus seems that the longer > the flights last, the more time the orbiting clocks should gain over > the earth clock. There should not be any *final* difference between > the two orbiting clocks due to this coasting part of the journey. > Final here means when all three clocks are brought back together. Bang-on. Right again. No prob. But wait -- your counter-orbiting clocks are _in_ _orbit_ which means they're traveling at the same speed RELATIVE TO A FIXED OBSERVER! On the other hand, the two aircraft in the Sagnac experiment went around the Earth at fixed speed RELATIVE TO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH. From the POV of a fixed observer, the one going east was going faster than the one going west, by a non-trivial amount. If the planes had nominal airspeeds of 500 mph, then the man in the middle saw the eastbound plane going east at 1500 MPH, while the "westbound" plane was actually _also_ going EAST (flying backwards!) at about 500 MPH. Since the eastbound plane was going 3 times as fast as the westbound plane, of course its clock ran slower. Again, figure the problem from the point of view of a non-moving observer at the center of the earth, and the difference is obvious. The confusion sets in when we look at it from a frame of reference attached to the Earth's surface. > > I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. Me, too. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 21 22:56:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0M6rUME006888; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:53:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M6rQun006859; Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:53:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:53:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=U7a9PUUidg37YhfRzbx3uVFmwq1uzSX9WjyMQzXnV2EM8lpuA69YHxReFPZqff4G73+Ed/jFWeFXNa/XrZyG26I/6MMlSmg4m9bBBhkpqZpxc2cjMs6dXXsI5Rr9Tab1fJUINtOtDyRZ5LASuvr2i+cfg64rrwW2cre0vzrB9B0= ; Message-ID: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:53:18 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43D154FB.3030002@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No, The principle that ring-laser gyro's work under is that the signals are no longer in ophase when they arrive. This can be accomplished either by allowing them to arrive at different times, or by allowing them to experience a different passage of time during their travel. For Hafele's clocks to show a difference in time passing, after they are brought back together, it does not actually matter whether the planes land at different times or even traveled at different speeds, because neither of which would affect the clocks. The solution probably has to do with the difference in gravity experienced by the planes, as the one traveling with the earth's rotation experiences a decrease in gravity (due to an increased centrepetal force) while the other plane experiences the opposite. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > Merlyn wrote: > > Actually, because the planes fly at equivalent > speeds > > WRT the Earth, which is a rotating frame of > reference, > > when they get back to the geographical starting > place > > (which has moved), they arrive at the same "local" > > time > > Not right. See below. > > > and according to Hafele's experimentally obtained > > data the clocks do not agree. > > But that's right. > > The problem with the first item is that the clocks > disagree by some tiny > amount -- say, a millionth of a second (I'm guessing > but probably > close). So, one of the two planes actually arrived > a microsecond before > the other one. > > Such a small difference in arrival times of physical > aircraft can't be > measured!! At 500 mph the nose of the plane moves > 0.009 inches in a > microsecond. Using any earthly measurement system > the planes will > _appear_ to arrive back at their starting points > simultaneously. > Indeed, the imprecision in the _starting_ locations > of the two aircraft > is surely many orders of magnitude larger than the > difference in the > location at which they actually met when they came > back to home base again. > > The only thing which _can_ be measured is the > difference in their clock > readings. That's straightforward by comparison -- > both planes land, and > you put the clocks next to each other and compare > them. Or do it by > radio before they land - either way it's easy. > > If you want to actually observe the fact that they > don't arrive back at > together at the starting point at the same moment, > you need to use > something smaller and more precise than aircraft, > like light pulses, > whose arrival time can be measured _precisely_. And > when that's done, > you do indeed observe that the arrival times, > according to local clocks, > are different. As I've already pointed out, that's > the principle on > which ring-laser gyros are based -- if it were not > true they would not work. > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 00:39:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0M8dOSa023394; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:39:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M8dJPh023352; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:39:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:39:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: <6B2B74EA-BFC8-409B-BC78-C73D70B47296@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: hheffner web site CD - First Edition Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:36:50 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0M8dEak023316 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have made some CDs of my web site. It is "hheffner web site - First Edition", JAN 21, 2006. They are Mac created but readable by PC. Before burning them I added appropriate qualifiers to the web site index like: "Note - everything here is created by an unqualified amateur, and beyond that an amateur prone to making mistakes and having lapses of memory! Also, many of the “new energy “ ideas are of course lunatic fringe. Certainly no free energy things are going to be allowed for patents! No reliance should be made on the accuracy or validity of anything on this web site! Information posted here may be highly speculative!" "Warning! - No one should assume that any given method or experiment discussed on this web site or any referenced web sites or publications is safe or legal. This web site is informational only. I take no responsibility for what anyone may do with the information given here. Experiments implied or documented here, although done by an amateur physicist, require experience and training in laboratory, electrical, chemical, and construction safety procedures, and methods, as well as appropriate facilities and safety gear. Safety in all cases also requires maturity, common sense, and extreme caution. Act on this information only at your own risk!" I also added an Acknowledgment here and there, like: "The experimental work on Electrospark generation and calorimetry done in 1997-1998 was accomplished only with and as a result of the generous tutelage, encouragement, and even material assistance of EarthTech International Inc. of Austin Texas, and in particular Scott Little of EarthTech. His continued tolerance of and assistance to this amateur has been greatly appreciated." I have a limited number of copies if anyone should want them. Just send me your address by private email if you want. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 01:57:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0M9uqDx020327; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:56:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0M9unfM020304; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:56:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: <65729BA4-7AD7-437F-9CC7-06881C334A3A@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: hheffner web site CD - First Edition Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:02:49 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0M9ugEg020243 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have made some CDs of my web site. It is "hheffner web site - First Edition", JAN 21, 2006. They are Mac created but readable by PC. Before burning them I added appropriate qualifiers to the web site index like: "Note - everything here is created by an unqualified amateur, and beyond that an amateur prone to making mistakes and having lapses of memory! Also, many of the “new energy “ ideas are of course lunatic fringe. Certainly no free energy things are going to be allowed for patents! No reliance should be made on the accuracy or validity of anything on this web site! Information posted here may be highly speculative!" "Warning! - No one should assume that any given method or experiment discussed on this web site or any referenced web sites or publications is safe or legal. This web site is informational only. I take no responsibility for what anyone may do with the information given here. Experiments implied or documented here, although done by an amateur physicist, require experience and training in laboratory, electrical, chemical, and construction safety procedures, and methods, as well as appropriate facilities and safety gear. Safety in all cases also requires maturity, common sense, and extreme caution. Act on this information only at your own risk!" I also added an Acknowledgment here and there, like: "The experimental work on Electrospark generation and calorimetry done in 1997-1998 was accomplished only with and as a result of the generous tutelage, encouragement, and even material assistance of EarthTech International Inc. of Austin Texas, and in particular Scott Little of EarthTech. His continued tolerance of and assistance to this amateur has been greatly appreciated." I have a limited number of copies if anyone should want them. Just send me your address by private email if you want. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 02:26:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MAQ25e031486; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:26:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MAPx8Q031439; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:25:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 02:25:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D11EF1.18DC0AC6@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:33:37 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060119043755.00a2b198@pop.freeserve.net> <43CFAD73.1952070A@centurytel.net> <8C7EB215F50F0BC-16C0-122DC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xxc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xxc" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, Horace, Steve and Terry, Thank you for the most interesting posts. This gives me a lot to think about. Jack Smith --------------- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by electron level transitions. I think the change is due to Beta-atm drag. The earth drags the aether as it rotates. The resulting change in electron resonance is essentially a Doppler effect of the Beta-atm. http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cesium.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock I actually recently purchased the HP 5071. The spare Cesium tube was $10k. I believe the polar flight *has* been done. I'll see if I can find a reference. Jack Smith wrote: Another interpretation of this data is that the half life increases when the clocks are moved in the direction of the Earth's axial spin, and the half life decreases when the clocks are moved in the opposite direction. Terry aka hohlraum wrote: But atomic clocks do not work by radioactive decay. They work by electron level transitions. Frank Grimer wrote: I didn't think they did, Terry. I only gave that example cos if radioactive decay is affected by its environment then one would expect everything on a larger scale to be affected ... Stephen A. Lawrence (salaw@pobox.com) wrote: The mismatched readings from planes going around the world in opposite directions is a consequence of the Sagnac effect. If you want to reproduce it yourself just obtain a laser-ring gyroscope. They're common items, available commercially, used in navigation, and they depend intrinsically on the Sagnac effect. You don't need an airliner to do it, though using an airplane and a clock instead of an interferometer is admittedly far more dramatic. The effect falls out trivially from special relativity. It also falls out of "Lorentz aether theory", which uses the same math as special relativity (so of course it gets the same results). Ballistic theory is killed dead by the Sagnac effect; as far as I know there is no way to patch it up to handle this case. There are no special properties of particular elements nor nuclear transitions involved. It's just that if you want to measure the effect using a clock, rather than using an interferometer to observe wavelength shifts in light, you need to use a very, very precise clock because the effect isn't very large, and right now that means using a cesium clock. Otherwise any old clock would work just as well. The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of several months. Frank Grimer wrote: The following stuff from the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group seems to have been largely covered by other people but I may as well include if for completeness of the archive: ===================================================== fgrimer (f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk) wrote: Date: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:17 am Subject: The Hafele and Keating Experiments I am sorry to have to subject the readers of this B-atm. group to a chunk of relativity stuff but the point which Webster Kehr expresses so clearly will be crucial to understanding the working of servomechanisms within materials. I confess I was so impressed with the clarity of Kehr's explanation that I congratulated him by e-mail and received an acknowledgement the very next day (ain't the Net a wonderful asset for expediting research). ---------------------------------------- Webster Kehr wrote: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/files/Detection.pdf The Hafele and Keating Experiments The Hafele-Keating experiments of 1971 are among the most famous experiments in the history of physics. Their experiments were designed to test the validity of Einstein's SR and his General Theory of Relativity ("GR"). Hafele and Keating twice flew four cesium atomic clocks around the world in commercial jets, first eastbound, then westbound. Their experiments proved that "time," as measured by atomic clocks, is a function of the direction, velocity and altitude of jet airplanes. The direction and velocity of the airplanes were factors of the SR and the altitude of the jets was a factor of the GR.[8,9,10,11] I should note that "time" in this case is the "actual time" as measured by the atomic clocks. Compared to the time kept by a stationary atomic clock at the U.S. Naval Observatory ("USNO"), which stayed on the ground, the eastbound clocks measured time slower than the stationary clock and the westbound clocks measured time faster than the stationary clock. Prior to their experiments, Hafele correctly predicted that the westbound clocks would measure time faster than the stationary clock.[8,9] The Hafele-Keating experiment is considered a proof that the SR and GR are valid theories. But the H-K used a very different version of the SR than was proposed by Einstein in 1905. For example, in the "old SR" of 1905, every element in the experiment was considered, or could be considered, an "at rest" relative reference frame. This was the entire intent of the concept of "relative reference frames." For example, if there were ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions, any one of these ten airplanes could be used as the "at rest" reference frame, for the formulas of relativity, to determine the "relative time" between it and any of the other planes. ========================================= Comment by Frank: Now this assumption of "ten jet airplanes flying at ten different velocities in ten different directions" is always what I understood Special Relativity to claim - but as you can see, those slimy bastard relativists shifted the goalposts. ========================================= Webster Kehr wrote: By 1971, however, the concept of "relative reference frames" had been totally eliminated. In the "new SR," used by Hafele and Keating, none of the two sets of jet airplanes or atomic clocks in the experiment were allowed to be considered "at rest." Not even the stationary atomic clock at the USNO could be considered "at rest." In the "new SR" used in the H-K, only one "at rest" reference frame was allowed and that was "a nonrotating observer looking down on the North pole from a great distance" [9] or to put it more simply: "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole." ========================================= Comment by Frank: In other words, an absolute reference frame for rotation with respect to the stars - with respect to the non-curvature of water surface in a bucket to bring it down to the most mundane level. [Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) p. 217 "... relational mechanics predicts the appearance of a real gravitational centrifugal force exerted by the distant universe spinning around the bucket. We can then say that this centrifugal force presses the water against the wall of the bucket making the water rise on this wall until the centrifugal force is balanced by the gradient of pressure." p.259 "... the main lines ... have already been laid down: no absolute space or time; only relational quantities should be involved; all forces should come from interactions between material bodies; for point particles the force should be directed along the line joining them and should obey the principle of action and reaction; ..." p. 261 "... We have been able to eplain the coincidence of Newtonian mechanics that the universe as a whole does not rotate relative to absolute space or to any inertial frame of reference. In other words, we have explained why the kinematical rotation of the earth is identical to its dynamical rotation ... We have derived the fact that all inertial forces of Newtonian mechanics, like the centrifugal force or Coriolis forces, are real forces ... This also explains the concavity in Newton's bucket as due to a relative rotation between the water and the distant universe ..." p 159 ``In our view, the theoretical concepts of length contraction, time dilation, Lorentz invariance, Lorentz's transformations, covariant and invariant laws, Minkowski metric, four-dimensional space-time, energy-momentum tensor, Riemannian geometry applied to physics, Schwarzschild line element, tensorial algebras in four-dimensional spaces, quadrivectors, metric tensor ..., proper time, contravariant four-vectors and tensors, geodetic lines, Christoffel symbols, super strings, curvature of space, etc. have the same role as epicycles in the Ptolemaic theory.''] ========================================= Webster Kehr wrote: This "at rest" reference point was not part of the experiment, meaning there was no atomic clock at that point. The "at rest" point in the H-K was many thousands of kilometers from any of the atomic clocks that were part of the experiment! The entire concept of "relative reference frames" was that any object that was part of the experiment could be considered "at rest." No object in the experiment was ever considered "at rest" by Hafele and Keating. It is important to emphasize that the observer or point is "nonrotating." If the observer rotated with the earth, then a stationary point on the equator, for example, would be viewed as being "at rest" relative to the observer's viewpoint. However, because the observer is not rotating, then a stationary point on the equator would be moving at a velocity equal to the (angular) rotation velocity of the earth at that latitude (i.e. zero degrees north). Thus, the "stationary" clock at the USNO was considered to be in motion due to the rotation of the earth (i.e. its velocity was measured relative to the rotation velocity of the earth at its latitude) because the observer was not rotating.[9] Thus, the "stationary" clock was actually in "motion." Let's call a spade a spade. Hafele and Keating could be said to have used a "local or localized Absolute Reference Frame ("local ARF") and a local or localized Absolute Time." By "absolute" I mean that the "at rest" reference frame they chose was not part of the experiment and did not move (relative to other objects), and did not rotate, during the experiment. By "local" I mean that they did not use the URF [Universal Reference Frame?] of CMBR [Cosmic Background Radiation? which is probably due to absorption and emission by "dust" rather than due to some postulated Big Bang] (which had not been discovered by 1971), or the reference frame of the sun's barycenter (which Hafele and Keating obviously would have known about), or the galactic barycenter (which they should have known about), but instead they used a reference frame within the ionosphere, which is "local" to the earth, meaning it travels with the earth in its motions in the universe. The choice of an "at rest" reference frame thousands of kilometers from the experiment was clearly not the intent of the original SR, but was added by Einstein before or during 1920 when he started talking about the center of a rotating disc as the one and only allowable "at rest" reference point.[12] Einstein's change of mind from using "at rest" reference frames that were part of the experiment, to using a single local ARF (Absolute Reference Frame) that was thousands of kilometers from the objects in the experiment, was undoubtedly due to empirical data. Einstein was known to have been working on the Doppler effect of canal rays (a predecessor to today's atomic clocks) prior to 1908.[13] In fact, the 1919 Nobel Prize was awarded to Johannes Stark for the discovery of the Doppler effect in canal rays, which discovery was made by Stark in 1905.[14] Hafele and Keating did not invent the concept of using an "at rest" reference frame on the extended axis of the earth, they knew what they had to use before they did their experiments. The two articles written by Hafele before the experiment prove that. They knew that if they used the stationary USNO atomic clock as their "at rest" reference point the formulas of the SR would not have worked with the actual data. Even before the H-K it was known that in order to get the formulas of the SR to work it was necessary to pick a localized ARF (Absolute Reference Frame) on the extended axis of the earth. It is probable that the reason Hafele and Keating used "a nonrotating point high above the North Pole," instead of the center of the earth, is because its use made it easier to visualize and explain why the stationary USNO atomic clock had to be in motion. =================================================== Comment by Frank: As usual with "independent thinkers", Webster Kehr has a lot of nutty other ideas which I certainly don't subscribe to. But credit where credit's due - he seems to have nailed the essentials of the HK experiment firmly to the doors of relativity's cathedral - for which insight I am very grateful. On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go. However, in order to keep the precision with which one needs to keep time down to something manageable, it's important to go quickly. If you used a ship and retraced Magellan's route instead of using an airplane, for instance, the tiny difference in the readings would be totally lost in the accumulated inaccuracy of the clocks over a period of several months. Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin paradox, and relativity in general. SR appears to be based solely on observational differences, i.e. retardation. This is true of Jefimenko's view also, except possibly for relativistic mass changes. However, in the case of the returned twin, the two twins stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration (GR effects), and the journey consisted of only brief acceleration phases, followed by long segments of uniform motion, then it seems that the final clock difference from a long journey would be the same as that of a short journey with the same accelerations and no coasting. You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. He calculates the speed of various natural clocks. His calculations for the twelve clocks were based on "the fundamental laws of electromagnetism and mechanics with no input from relativity theory (although we shall use the longitudinal and transverse masses, which may be regarded as either experimentally obtained masses, or as relativistic concepts)" (p. 237) However, his EM equations, based on retardation, are similar to SR based equations. His view is interesting. In the twin paradox, as viewed by Jefimenko, perhaps the "young" twin may have varied aging effects, depending on the mechanics of some specific chemical interactions ... [Jack Smith writes; The following is an abbreviation of a very interesting post which I have completely archived.] On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The speed of the flights is not a factor, either -- the same time lag will be observed no matter how fast they go ... Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Reminds me of the old Jefimenko's clocks issues discussed here some years back. There is something I have not understood about the twin paradox In the case of the returned twin, the two twins stand next to each other at the end. They are in the same reference frame. If there is a difference in age between them then that difference can not be simply a result of retardation. If the "permanent" clock difference effect is due to acceleration ... Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: That's a useful way to think of it, at least in the sense that it's the acceleration which breaks the symmetry and resolves the apparent logical paradox: the twins are _not_ identical, and the one whose path diverged from a geodesic is the older twin. But it's not the whole story, as you also observed ... Horace Heffner wrote: You might find it interesting that in his book *Retardation and Relativity*, Jefimenko takes a different but interesting view of the relativistic clock paradox. He says the clock speed is a function of what kind of clock is being obeserved in motion. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Perhaps, but doesn't this make rather nasty hash of the principle of relativity? I.e., it suggests that physical laws change rather dramatically as a result of a change in speed, which seems peculiar. In other words, if I'm carrying two different kinds of clocks, and I take off in a spaceship, I would then see the two clocks running at different rates. This would be disturbing, particularly if the two clocks happened to be represented by two different enzyme reaction paths in my body ... So do I understand this? He is suggesting that there is an absolute stationary frame, the principle of relativity is false, and one can determine one's absolute velocity by observing various kinds of clocks? ... Horace Heffner wrote: Interesting about the speed independence. Frank Grimer wrote: I think one has to be careful what one means by speed independence here. In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. If you go towards the setting sun then it is not that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. Going round towards the rising sun slow running will be increased. But the difference in speed between planes and ships is small compared to light speed. If one projected a caesium clock at close to the speed of light relative to the absolute frame of reference for motion then its speed would slow right down since mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance around the globe clockwise is different from that around the globe widdershins. On Jan 19, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: http://www.physicsinsights.org/linear_twins.html Horace wrote: Actually I have a lot of interest but no time to really dig into this. However, I must say that it does seem to me that the issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, and such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the critical issues. The difficult math seems to me to disappear in a flash! 8^) No longer are fancy transforms and distance functions required. Further, we can look at each flash from earth as a single photon. As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the photons arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the same reason, the wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on earth appears to the traveler to slow down. However, no matter what kinds of accelerations the traveler has experienced or is experiencing, he keeps receiving his regular periodic set of photons from earth. The only thing that changes are the time increments sensed by the traveler between photons, and their colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from earth, there are always photons in route from earth to the traveler. As the traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he absorbs those photons increases, and he sees a blue shift as well, for the same reason, i.e. the wave peaks arrive faster. The earth increments its clock each time a photon is transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board "earth clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, fewer photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the traveler's on board clock was not affected by his acceleration, his "earth time" clock and local clock will come back in synchronization. Further, his earth time clock and earth's clock will be in perfect synchronization upon arrival. If not, the number of photons sent and the number received can not match, which is nonsense. The only other way for the traveler's clock to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth time" clock for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been affected by the acceleration. Frank wrote: I think one has to be careful what one means by speed independence here. Steve wrote: Here's what we mean by that: Consider a rotating disk. Select a point on the perimeter. Send two signals around the disk, starting from that point, circumnavigating the disk, and returning to that point (which has, of course, moved by the time the signals get back to it). Make sure the two signals travel at the same speed relative to the rim of the disk. The signal which went around in the same direction as the disk's rotation will arrive back at the start _after_ the signal which went the other way around. The difference in the arrival times is a function of the rotation rate of the disk, but it is _not_ a function of the speed of the signal. Fast signal, slow signal, the absolute delay between the return of the signal on the "fast" path and the return of the signal on the "slow" path is the same. As I mentioned previously, this can be demonstrated without the use of any clocks, and in fact it is demonstrated all the time. Current generation inertial navigation systems use ring-laser gyroscopes which only work as a result of this effect. In a ring-laser gyro the signal is a a light pulse carried in a fiber optic cable, and it travels at roughly 3/4 C relative to the rim of the disk. The signal speed is the same in both directions, relative to the disk (signal speed on a moving body is trivial to measure, and if it weren't invariant with respect to the motion, moving computers would not work). The arrival time difference is measured by looking at interference fringe shifts between the counter-traversing pulses, and it's used to determine the rate at which the disk is turning, which datum is used by the navigation system. It's sometimes claimed that the Sagnac effect is difficult to explain in special relativity, or that the math is a horrible mess. That's not true. The effect is actually pretty simple; in fact it can be explained in a few pictures without a (whole) lot of messy math. See here: http://physicsinsights.org/sagnac_1.html In a nutshell, the rotation doesn't make a difference; straighten out the path so it's just a long straight rod that's being traversed, and it becomes a lot more obvious what's going on. Frank wrote: In it's rotation the earth (and clocks on its surface) is moving in relation to the Beta-atmosphere which reduces the speed of the caesium clock. If you go towards the setting sun then it is not that the clock will speed up. It is that the slow running will be reduced to a minumum when the speed is stationary in relation to the local B-atm. Going round towards the rising sun slow running will be increased. But the difference in speed between planes and ships is small compared to light speed. If one projected a caesium clock at close to the speed of light relative to the absolute frame of reference for motion then its speed would slow right down since mass is the reciprocal of internal closed path velocity (see IHM note on Beta-atm.Yahoo site). The fact that the caesium clocks rate can be altered merely by flying it around the globe shows the utter insanity of using it to define length. If you do, then you end up with the ludicrous result that the distance around the globe clockwise is different from that around the globe widdershins. Steve wrote: Ring-laser gyros make hardly any sense, it's true. You're right. However, they exist and they work. All of special relativity has this problem: Intuitively it's absurd. But it's born out by an enormous mass of experimental data. But there's a point you may have missed in the "airplane" experiment. The two aircraft don't arrive back at the starting point at the same moment. According to each airplane's onboard clock, the time to go around the world was the same -- that doesn't depend on the direction! And so neither does the distance the airplane traveled. What changes is how long it takes in Earth-minutes for the planes to go around the world. At the point at which the planes meet -- which is _NOT_ the starting point, because they got back to the start at different times -- they really have traveled different distances, and their clocks really do show different readings. There's no contradiction and little surprise in that. The odd thing is that they don't get back to the starting point at the same time. Horace wrote: If a one dimensional photon counting clock model, as laid out just prior, makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make sense as well, assuming he has a very high Isp drive, like a ZPE drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he simply does not see any photons from earth. This does not mean he is traveling backwards in time. It only means his communication with earth is cut off (unless of course he has some spooky action at a distance communication device.) When he the traveler turns around, he eventually starts receiving the photons again, but very much blue shifted. When traveling faster than light relative to earth, his earth clock merely stops, it doesn't run backwards. His own local clock, however, keeps on ticking. Again, without some change in the traveler's clock due to acceleration, all the clocks must be in synchronization upon his return. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 04:47:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MChpBs032726; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 04:43:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MChkbS032690; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 04:43:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 04:43:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c61f51$3c7747e0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Overunity Fusion..... Fable or Fact? Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:41:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61F27.536F3360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at broadbandsupport.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61F27.536F3360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Z machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to produce = conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased the machine's = X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two years. http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Researchers at Sandia National Laboratories' Z = machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to produce = conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased the machine's = X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two years. The most recent advance resulted in an output X-ray power of about 290 = trillion watts -- for billionths of a second, about 80 times the entire = world's output of electricity. The figure represents almost a 40 percent increase over the 210 trillion = watts -- itself a world record -- reported last summer. Strangely, the power used in each trial is only enough to provide = electricity to about 100 houses for two minutes. Electricity is provided = by ordinary wall current from a local utility company. Yet particles imploded in the accelerator's tiny targets -- about the = size of a spool of thread -- reach velocities that would fly a plane = from Los Angeles to New York in a second. Z's advance in power is expected to make a major contribution to the = Department of Energy's (DOE) science-based approach to stockpile = stewardship, which must use giant computing and laboratory experiments = to provide the basis to sustain the nation's nuclear stockpile without = above- or below-ground tests. This achievement resulted from advances in = theory and experiments by a team involving DOE and Department of Defense = labs, and universities. Achieved 1.6 million degrees C In a different series of experiments, the accelerator achieved a = temperature of approximately 1.6 million degrees Celsius (140 electron = volts) in a container the size of a spool of thread. Other experiments in a still smaller volume target suggest temperatures = may eventually be achieved on Z in the range of 2.0 to 2.2 million = degrees. The now-realistic goal of reaching 2.0 million degrees is so = significant because radiation temperatures in the range of two million = to three million degrees are generally considered an essential condition = for nuclear fusion. This potential for the Z facility was demonstrated in experiments = performed by a group from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in = California and a group from Sandia in New Mexico. These small-volume experiments have thus far been limited by implosion = instabilities, but the most recent results indicate that these = instabilities can be controlled. A year and a half ago, Z could achieve = a radiation temperature of only 0.7 million degrees. Each doubling of = temperature theoretically results in a 16-fold increase in intensity of = the radiation, necessary to drive a fusion capsule. Other requirements for fusion, besides temperature, include adequate = energy and power in X-rays to symmetrically compress a capsule = containing fusion fuel until it ignites to achieve high-yield fusion. Milestones Z was expected to achieve were an X-ray energy of 1.5 = megajoules -- achieved is 2.0 megajoules. The power milestone was 150 = terawatts -- achieved, 290 terawatts. There were two milestones in = temperature: the first for weapons physics configurations was 100 eV = (1.2 million degrees). The achieved value was 140 eV (1.6 million = degrees). The second temperature milestone in a configuration suitable = for target compression experiments was 150 eV (1.7 million degrees). = Sandia has achieved 140 eV (1.6 million degrees). Close to fourth milestone "We have now met three of four milestones we set for Z, and are very = close to meeting the fourth -- a radiation temperature of 1.7 million = degrees," says Don Cook, director of Sandia's Pulsed Power Sciences = Center. These results show that X-1, a larger accelerator scheduled to = follow Z, should be able to produce 16 million joules of energy, more = than 1,000 trillion watts of power, and temperatures of more than 3 = million degrees. Because Sandia's concept for X-1 is based on the high = efficiency already demonstrated on the Z -- 15 percent from energy going = into the accelerator to energy coming out in X-rays -- the cost of X-1 = is expected to be modest. Sandia is seeking support from DOE for = embarking on the conceptual design of X-1 and plans to make a formal = request to do so this spring. If DOE approves start of a conceptual = design this year, X-1 should be able to contribute to DOE's = science-based stockpile stewardship program in a timely way. X-1 will = provide laboratory data on the physics of nuclear weapons implosions and = their effects. The data are necessary to validate the increasingly = sophisticated computational models of weapon performance, without = underground testing. An affordable approach to high yield Z relies upon wall-current electricity to charge giant capacitor banks = and upon enormous metal cables that connect to a central vacuum chamber, = 10 feet in diameter and 20 feet high. When the accelerator fires, powerful electrical pulses are delivered by = 36 transmission cables protected by insulation techniques developed over = the last 30 years. Highly synchronized laser-triggered switches allow = the stored energy to be discharged simultaneously through the 36 cables, = each as big around as a horse and 30 feet long, arranged like spokes of = a wheel and insulated by water. The enormous electrical pulse of 50 = trillion watts strikes a complex target about the size of a spool of = thread. (The machine is named Z because the current passing directly = into the target travels vertically -- a direction conventionally labeled = "z" by mathematicians and physicists to distinguish it from the x and y = directions, both horizontal.) The target consists of a metal can containing several hundred nearly = invisible tungsten wires, each much smaller in diameter than a human = hair. The metal can, called a hohlraum, functions like an oven, = confining radiation energy released when the wires first explode and = then subsequently collapse on themselves. Several variations of this = assembly are responsible for increasing the temperature and power of Z. Collisions produce intense radiation In experiments with the basic vacuum hohlraum, the discharge of energy = through the wires creates a magnetic field that compresses the exploded = wire array at a speed equivalent to traveling 3,000 miles in one second. = The vaporized particles, pushed inward by the magnetic field, collide = with each other at the magnetic axis. The collisions produce intense = radiation, enough to heat the surrounding walls of the hohlraum to 140 = eV (approximately 1.6 million degrees). The X-ray radiation emitted from = the walls is then used to study the properties of materials at high = temperatures and pressures. By placing coreless (annular) or solid cylinders inside the wire array = (an arrangement called a dynamic or internal hohlraum), even higher = temperatures can be achieved inside the rapidly compressed volume. = Researchers experimented with wire arrays imploding onto cylinders made = of plastic foam, with two-dimensional computer simulation support from = Los Alamos National Laboratory. The group has achieved 1.6 million degrees C (140 eV) in useful form -- = that is, able to drive a fusion capsule -- and 2.2 million degrees (190 = eV) as a peak temperature. Increases in "useful" and peak temperatures = are expected in upcoming experiments because better design will help = control instabilities in the interior, heated region. This is the next = challenge faced by all Z researchers. In collaborative experiments among Lawrence Livermore and Sandia = scientists, led by Arthur Toor of Lawrence Livermore, foam layers = surrounding a beryllium tube are used inside the wire array, thereby = providing a slower, more precise collapse of the imploding plasma. This = arrangement produced a hohlraum temperature of 170 eV -- 2 million = degrees -- in a configuration useful for studies of weapons physics. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61F27.536F3360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Z machine -- the former dark horse among=20 accelerators meant to produce conditions required for nuclear fusion -- = have=20 increased the machine's X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the = last two=20 years.

http://www.sandia.gov/media= /z290.htm

ALBUQUERQUE,=20 N.M. -- Researchers at Sandia National Laboratories' Z machine -- the = former=20 dark horse among accelerators meant to produce conditions required for = nuclear=20 fusion -- have increased the machine's X-ray power output by nearly 10 = times in=20 the last two years.

The most recent advance resulted in an output = X-ray=20 power of about 290 trillion watts -- for billionths of a second, about = 80 times=20 the entire world's output of electricity.

The figure represents = almost a=20 40 percent increase over the 210 trillion watts -- itself a world record = --=20 reported last summer.

Strangely, the power used in each trial is = only=20 enough to provide electricity to about 100 houses for two minutes. = Electricity=20 is provided by ordinary wall current from a local utility = company.

Yet=20 particles imploded in the accelerator's tiny targets -- about the size = of a=20 spool of thread -- reach velocities that would fly a plane from Los = Angeles to=20 New York in a second.

Z's advance in power is expected to make a = major=20 contribution to the Department of Energy's (DOE) science-based approach = to=20 stockpile stewardship, which must use giant computing and laboratory = experiments=20 to provide the basis to sustain the nation's nuclear stockpile without = above- or=20 below-ground tests. This achievement resulted from advances in theory = and=20 experiments by a team involving DOE and Department of Defense labs, and=20 universities.

Achieved 1.6 million degrees C
In a different = series of=20 experiments, the accelerator achieved a temperature of approximately 1.6 = million=20 degrees Celsius (140 electron volts) in a container the size of a spool = of=20 thread.

Other experiments in a still smaller volume target = suggest=20 temperatures may eventually be achieved on Z in the range of 2.0 to 2.2 = million=20 degrees. The now-realistic goal of reaching 2.0 million degrees is so=20 significant because radiation temperatures in the range of two million = to three=20 million degrees are generally considered an essential condition for = nuclear=20 fusion.

This potential for the Z facility was demonstrated in = experiments=20 performed by a group from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in = California=20 and a group from Sandia in New Mexico.

These small-volume = experiments=20 have thus far been limited by implosion instabilities, but the most = recent=20 results indicate that these instabilities can be controlled. A year and = a half=20 ago, Z could achieve a radiation temperature of only 0.7 million = degrees. Each=20 doubling of temperature theoretically results in a 16-fold increase in = intensity=20 of the radiation, necessary to drive a fusion capsule.

Other = requirements=20 for fusion, besides temperature, include adequate energy and power in = X-rays to=20 symmetrically compress a capsule containing fusion fuel until it ignites = to=20 achieve high-yield fusion.

Milestones Z was expected to achieve = were an=20 X-ray energy of 1.5 megajoules -- achieved is 2.0 megajoules. The power=20 milestone was 150 terawatts -- achieved, 290 terawatts. There were two=20 milestones in temperature: the first for weapons physics configurations = was 100=20 eV (1.2 million degrees). The achieved value was 140 eV (1.6 million = degrees).=20 The second temperature milestone in a configuration suitable for target=20 compression experiments was 150 eV (1.7 million degrees). Sandia has = achieved=20 140 eV (1.6 million degrees).

Close to fourth milestone
"We = have now=20 met three of four milestones we set for Z, and are very close to meeting = the=20 fourth -- a radiation temperature of 1.7 million degrees," says Don = Cook,=20 director of Sandia's Pulsed Power Sciences Center. These results show = that X-1,=20 a larger accelerator scheduled to follow Z, should be able to produce 16 = million=20 joules of energy, more than 1,000 trillion watts of power, and = temperatures of=20 more than 3 million degrees. Because Sandia's concept for X-1 is based = on the=20 high efficiency already demonstrated on the Z -- 15 percent from energy = going=20 into the accelerator to energy coming out in X-rays -- the cost of X-1 = is=20 expected to be modest. Sandia is seeking support from DOE for embarking = on the=20 conceptual design of X-1 and plans to make a formal request to do so = this=20 spring. If DOE approves start of a conceptual design this year, X-1 = should be=20 able to contribute to DOE's science-based stockpile stewardship program = in a=20 timely way. X-1 will provide laboratory data on the physics of nuclear = weapons=20 implosions and their effects. The data are necessary to validate the=20 increasingly sophisticated computational models of weapon performance, = without=20 underground testing.

An affordable approach to high yield
Z = relies=20 upon wall-current electricity to charge giant capacitor banks and upon = enormous=20 metal cables that connect to a central vacuum chamber, 10 feet in = diameter and=20 20 feet high.

When the accelerator fires, powerful electrical = pulses are=20 delivered by 36 transmission cables protected by insulation techniques = developed=20 over the last 30 years. Highly synchronized laser-triggered switches = allow the=20 stored energy to be discharged simultaneously through the 36 cables, = each as big=20 around as a horse and 30 feet long, arranged like spokes of a wheel and=20 insulated by water. The enormous electrical pulse of 50 trillion watts = strikes a=20 complex target about the size of a spool of thread. (The machine is = named Z=20 because the current passing directly into the target travels vertically = -- a=20 direction conventionally labeled "z" by mathematicians and physicists to = distinguish it from the x and y directions, both horizontal.)

The = target=20 consists of a metal can containing several hundred nearly invisible = tungsten=20 wires, each much smaller in diameter than a human hair. The metal can, = called a=20 hohlraum, functions like an oven, confining radiation energy released = when the=20 wires first explode and then subsequently collapse on themselves. = Several=20 variations of this assembly are responsible for increasing the = temperature and=20 power of Z.

Collisions produce intense radiation
In = experiments with=20 the basic vacuum hohlraum, the discharge of energy through the wires = creates a=20 magnetic field that compresses the exploded wire array at a speed = equivalent to=20 traveling 3,000 miles in one second. The vaporized particles, pushed = inward by=20 the magnetic field, collide with each other at the magnetic axis. The = collisions=20 produce intense radiation, enough to heat the surrounding walls of the = hohlraum=20 to 140 eV (approximately 1.6 million degrees). The X-ray radiation = emitted from=20 the walls is then used to study the properties of materials at high = temperatures=20 and pressures.

By placing coreless (annular) or solid cylinders = inside=20 the wire array (an arrangement called a dynamic or internal hohlraum), = even=20 higher temperatures can be achieved inside the rapidly compressed = volume.=20 Researchers experimented with wire arrays imploding onto cylinders made = of=20 plastic foam, with two-dimensional computer simulation support from Los = Alamos=20 National Laboratory.

The group has achieved 1.6 million degrees C = (140=20 eV) in useful form -- that is, able to drive a fusion capsule -- and 2.2 = million=20 degrees (190 eV) as a peak temperature. Increases in "useful" and peak=20 temperatures are expected in upcoming experiments because better design = will=20 help control instabilities in the interior, heated region. This is the = next=20 challenge faced by all Z researchers.

In collaborative = experiments among=20 Lawrence Livermore and Sandia scientists, led by Arthur Toor of Lawrence = Livermore, foam layers surrounding a beryllium tube are used inside the = wire=20 array, thereby providing a slower, more precise collapse of the = imploding=20 plasma. This arrangement produced a hohlraum temperature of 170 eV -- 2 = million=20 degrees -- in a configuration useful for studies of weapons physics.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C61F27.536F3360-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 06:06:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ME6AHV003469; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:06:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ME67XE003448; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:06:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:06:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:05:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: > No, The principle that ring-laser gyro's work under is > that the signals are no longer in ophase when they > arrive. This can be accomplished either by allowing > them to arrive at different times, or by allowing them > to experience a different passage of time during their > travel. If two wave fronts aren't in phase when the arrive back at the starting point, then the crests arrived at different times. Draw a picture showing the crests in the waves, if that helps; if they're in phase the crests arrive at the same time. If the two fronts take the same time to get there then they are in phase. Wave crests don't "age" so the amount of time they experience doesn't affect the result. For problems of this sort a light ray can be viewed as a series of crests, and the events are the arrival of the crests. You can model it as a string of beads. > For Hafele's clocks to show a difference in time > passing, after they are brought back together, it does > not actually matter whether the planes land at > different times or even traveled at different speeds, > because neither of which would affect the clocks. > > The solution probably has to do with the difference in > gravity experienced by the planes, as the one > traveling with the earth's rotation experiences a > decrease in gravity (due to an increased centrepetal > force) while the other plane experiences the opposite. Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the centripetal force. Clock rates in a gravitational field are affected by the gravitational potential, not the local gravitational field strength. Horace Heffner wrote: > > I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. Me, too. In the absence of seeing it, I'm going to go out on a limb and make a rough calculation of what the data _should_ look like, according to SR. This is also a demonstration of how simple the problem really must be in SR, assuming, of course, that SR is correct and consistent. (If it's consistent then we can pick any point of view we choose, in order to simplify the problem... if it's not then we can't do that!) The Earth is about 25000 miles in circumference, and the equator is moving at about 1000 miles per hour. I'll take that as a starting point; this is a _rough_ estimate I'm working out here. (The assumptions are valid -- it's the arithmetic where I'm cutting corners.) Peel off a strip of Earth at the equator and straighten it out, but don't stop it from moving -- let it go shooting off into space. Now we have a straight rod, 25,000 miles long, traveling at 1,000 miles per hour. From the POV of a "stationary" observer, let's work out the "sync error" between clocks at the two ends. First, we need to fix the units. Convert everything to light-seconds, seconds, and fractions of C: v = 1000 mph = 0.3 miles/sec = 1.6 * 10^-6 C x = 25,000 miles / 186,000 miles/sec = 1.34 * 10^-1 light-seconds gamma = 1/sqrt(1-v^2) ~ 1 + (1/2)v^2 = 1 + 1.3*10^-12 or, for our purposes, gamma == 1 -- our accuracy is a lot less than one part in 10^12 here. Finally, at time 0 in the "stationary" frame, if time is 0 at one end of the moving "rod", then time at the other end must be t_e = gamma*(t - v*x) = -v * x = 1.6 * 10^-6 * 1.34 * 10^-1 = 2.1 * 10^-7 That's the clock synchronization error going around the world _one_ _way_. If two planes circle the Earth in opposite directions they'll _each_ encounter that error, in opposite directions. So the total error will be double that, and we have Sagnac gap time = 2 * t_e = 0.4 microseconds The "gap time" is independent of the speed of the aircraft. **************************************************************** Now if we want to know how far off _ONE_ airplane's clock will be relative to a ground-based observer upon return from a trip around the world, we _do_ need to worry about how fast the plane is traveling. There are a couple of simple ways to do it. Looking at it from a stationary observation point at Earth's center is straightforward and provides a check on the computation above. There's one slightly tricky point, which is we need to worry about the velocity of the traveler as measured by the central observer, and the velocity relative to the Earth's surface: V_earth = 1000 mph = 1.6 * 10^-6 C V_nominal = velocity of traveler relative to surface V_actual = V_nominal + V_earth Time lost by a traveler going around the Earth, from the POV of the "man in the middle", is just that traveler's gamma, minus 1, times the time the trip takes: offset = (gamma[plane] - 1) * (x/V_nominal) For low speeds (all we care about here!) we have gamma ~ 1 + (1/2)V_actual^2 so that reduces to offset = (1/2)V_actual^2 * x / (V_actual - V_earth) For 1000 MPH flights, this works out as: 1000 MPH westbound => V_actual=0 => offset = 0 1000 MPH eastbound => V_actual=2000 MPH => offset = 0.429 uSec Earth surface, during 1000 MPH flight: V_actual=1000 mph, x/v is as above, and offset = 0.107 uSec Eastbound plane clock is off by 0.429 - 0.107 = 0.322 uSec Westbond plane clock is off by 0 - 0.107 = -0.107 uSec Difference in planes' clocks is 0.429 - 0 = 0.429 uSec => gap time = 0.429 uSec For 500 MPH flights, this works out as: 500 MPH westbound => offset = 0.0536 uSec 500 MPH eastbound => offset = 0.482 uSec Stationary on ground => V_actual = 1000 mph, V_nom = 500 mph => offset = 0.214 uSec And so we have: Eastbound plane clock is off by 0.482 - 0.214 = 0.268 uSec Westbound plane clock is off by 0.0536 - 0.214 = -0.160 uSec Difference in plane's clocks is 0.482 - 0.0536 = 0.428 uSec => gap time = 0.428 uSec From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 08:18:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MGFvRM002803; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:15:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MGFrJK002773; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:15:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:15:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:15:44 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7ED863B00E9B8-14F8-2C3B@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: microbial transmutation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2d-KjC.A.Rr.5-60DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder >From the personal web site of Ludwik Kowalski. > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/273microbial.html > > A note on microbial transmutation <><><><><><> I tried to visit the web site referenced: http://www.iesiusa.com but it is password protected. I presume this was the site he meant when he spoke of the electric generator with 2MW in and 12MW out? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 08:44:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MGeEOS014437; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:41:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MGdc51013694; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:39:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:39:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:39:23 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner Final here means when all three clocks are brought back together. I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. <><><><><><><> I don't think anyone has mentioned this site: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 08:49:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MGeEOU014437; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:41:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MFncVS022717; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:49:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1d5.4ca8f14a.31050250@aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:44:16 EST Subject: conventional power start-up To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1137944656" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5022 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1137944656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been working, 70 hrs last week, on the checkout of a power plant Distributed Control System. This control system will go on to on a power plant in Morresville, NC. Things have changed since I last worked on one of these. The operator stations used to be constructed of dedicated hardware. Now the operator stations are Del PC's and the communications is handled with sun servers. The drops in the plant, were the plant equipment interfaces to the computer system, are now the only dedicated hardware. The logical control programming used to involve the writing of scripts, methods, and codes. A knowledge of UNIX and object oriented language was required. Now logic blocks (and, or, flip flop, and sequencers) are picked in an AutoCAD window and pasted into the logic scheme. With the simulation we have you can see the logic working. The lines logic activate and turn red. I can concentrate on the control of the process. I do not have to speak three letter computerize. The animation of the graphics still requires codes and scripts. I really like the Emerson Ovation Distributed Control System. I hate the long hours that I am working. I also need more money. I can't take it for much longer. I had hoped that the fundamental sources of energy would have progressed this far. Frank Z -------------------------------1137944656 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been working, 70 hrs last week, on the checkout of a power plant= =20 Distributed Control System.  This control system will go on to on=20= a=20 power plant in Morresville, NC.  Things have changed since I last worke= d on=20 one of these.  The operator stations used to be constructed of dedicate= d=20 hardware.  Now the operator stations are Del PC's and the communication= s is=20 handled with sun servers. The drops in the plant, were the plant equipment=20 interfaces to the computer system, are now the only dedicated=20 hardware. 
 
The logical control programming used to involve the writing of scripts,= =20 methods, and codes.  A knowledge of UNIX and object oriented langu= age=20 was required.  Now logic blocks (and, or, flip flop, and=20 sequencers) are picked in an AutoCAD window and pasted into the logic=20 scheme.  With the simulation we have you can see the logic=20 working.  The lines logic activate and turn red.  I can=20 concentrate on the control of the process.  I do not have to=20 speak three letter computerize.  The animation of the=20 graphics still requires codes and scripts.  I really like the Emer= son=20 Ovation Distributed Control System.  I hate the long hours that I am=20 working.  I also need more money.  I can't take it for much=20 longer.
 
 
I had hoped that the fundamental sources of energy would have=20 progressed this far.
 
 
Frank Z
 -------------------------------1137944656-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 10:00:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MI0Jke023523; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:00:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MHqF9n019084; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:52:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:46:50 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7ED92F5537119-1F28-19E11@mblkn-m03.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.67 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d I don't think anyone has mentioned this site: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html <><><><><><><> Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm or http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 11:55:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MJsBER010912; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:54:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MJs2oM010786; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:54:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:54:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060122195346572.8BA0A2400091@mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060122195347.00a15804@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:53:47 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:09 pm 22/01/2006 +0000, I wrote wrote: >At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: >> >... >> >>Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: >> >>http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm >> >>or >> >>http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm >> >>Terry > > >Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. CORRECTION - I should have credited R.Webster Kehr with the article - Flandern was merely mentioned at the top. I should have realised that someone wouldn't quote himself in that manner. The full Kehr book is at, http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/files/Detection.pdf Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 12:12:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MKASmN019495; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MJVxie001614; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060122190912495.78F4DB800082@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:09:13 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0MJVrHT001502 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: > ... > >Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: > >http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm > >or > >http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm > >Terry Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. That was very clear. I shall have some comments to make later but I would just like to make one point now. I think Flandern lets Albert off far too lightly when he merely writes, ======================================== "In the original SR there was only one type of coordinate system, the objects in the experiment, and the "at rest" reference frame was any of those objects. ========================================= The fact is that this changed the original theory of relativity completely. I'm sure that people on the periphery of physics, as I was, are still trying to understand the original theory which will do their heads in cos, frankly its a lot of */&^%$£*/. There should have been the type of recall like they have with motor cars when they prove defective and dangerous. Sometimes one needs a good book burning, eh! Error has no rights. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 12:34:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MKFtJM023064; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:15:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MKFrog023033; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:15:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:15:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D3E7EB.30000@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:15:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5WG5e.A.xnF.4f-0DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner > > Final here means when all three clocks are brought back together. > > I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. > > <><><><><><><> > > I don't think anyone has mentioned this site: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html Thanks very much, Terry! I notice that the number in my earlier post, in which I worked it out and concluded the difference should be about 400 nS, was about 40% higher than the kinematic value of 280 nS predicted by H-K. This is most likely because I assumed the trip would take place exactly on the equator and the planes would travel at uniform speed, while the planes didn't actually follow a great circle and actually traveled at a variety of speeds; the H-K prediction used the real path of the aircraft. (Either that or I blew the math somewhere.) I also notice that the gravitational effects _were_ significant over the length of the trip. I had guessed that the gravitational component would be swamped by the kinematic component ... oh, well. Note, however, that the gravitational component of the "gap" is quite small: 35 nS, versus 280 nS for the kinematic component. I'm fairly sure that "gravitational" difference is entirely due to the two planes flying at different altitudes, actually. By the way, the assertion I've made several times that the Sagnac gap is independent of the traveler's speed _assumes_ that the eastbound and westbound travelers go at exactly the same speed ... something which is difficult or impossible to arrange with real airplanes. > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 13:34:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MLXq27029725; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:33:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MLXn0a029692; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:33:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D3FA2F.2070505@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:33:35 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: > > ... > >>Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: >> >>http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm >> >>or >> >>http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm >> >>Terry > > > > Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. That was very > clear. I shall have some comments to make later but I would > just like to make one point now. I think Flandern lets Albert > off far too lightly when he merely writes, > > ======================================== > "In the original SR there was only one > type of coordinate system, the objects > in the experiment, and the "at rest" > reference frame was any of those objects. > ========================================= > > The fact is that this changed the original theory of relativity > completely. (Since the "original theory" is that outlined in Einstein's 1905 paper on the electrodynamics of moving bodies, I assume that's what you're talking about here.) When Einstein's 1905 "electrodynamics" paper was written tensor calculus as it is used today had not been invented yet. Minkowski's geometry was still years away, of course. The original paper did not deal with rotating frames and didn't deal with acceleration, and in fact it's still widely believed you can't deal with acceleration within the framework of special relativity; this isn't true. Einstein used "infinitesimals" and "infinite distances" in the 1905 paper. Those concepts were _not_ well defined and he never defined them in the paper. He used them because they got the job done and because using explicit limits everywhere would have been cumbersome or impossible, and there was not, as yet, any alternative; AFAIK it was not until the 1950's that differential geometry was finally placed on a firm theoretical footing by redefining the term "tangent vector" to make it synonymous with a path derivative. Before that everybody said tangent vectors were "infinitesimal displacements" -- but up until 1960 there was no rigorous definition of the term "infinitesimal". But what can you do? Like everybody else, physicists work with the tools they have. Einstein had a lot to do with creating the framework which is missing from the 1905 paper, but in 1905 he hadn't done it yet. (Obviously.) Minkowski's use of "i" in the geometry actually made things much worse, IMHO; current textbooks have almost universally dispensed with it. I wasted a lot of time, way back when, struggling to understand what it meant that the time axis was "imaginary", only to find out later that it isn't, after all... The "modern" approach to special relativity is much, much closer to Einstein's 1916 GR paper than it is to his 1905 electrodynamics paper -- the current "geometric" approach to SR is basically just GR with a flat metric. But even in 1916 the "geometric" approach to tensor calculus had not yet been conceived, and everything was done in terms of coordinates. That can make it all much harder to grasp. > I'm sure that people on the periphery of physics, > as I was, are still trying to understand the original theory Bad move. The 1905 paper is an interesting historical artifact. It's an awful place to begin to try to understand relativity. And any book that uses an imaginary time axis should be avoided. > which will do their heads in cos, frankly its a lot of */&^%$£*/. No, it's not wrong, it's merely incomplete. Furthermore, the paper is a translation from German, and the translator's use of mathematical English is archaic in some ways; for example, the paper confuses "speed" with "velocity", which no high school physics text would do nowadays. Einstein's derivations in that paper are very confusing and hard to follow but, except for the transverse mass derivation, they're apparently correct. > > There should have been the type of recall like they have with > motor cars when they prove defective and dangerous. Sometimes > one needs a good book burning, eh! Error has no rights. As I said, it's an interesting historical artifact. But it should have a warning label: "WARNING: Do not attempt to learn special relativity from this document!!" > > Frank Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 14:31:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MMTHx4024295; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:29:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MMTC1A024253; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:29:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:29:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:28:56 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7EDBA5DBD725D-1A40-665E@mblkn-m01.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> <43D3FA2F.2070505@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43D3FA2F.2070505@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.65 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence As I said, it's an interesting historical artifact. But it should have a warning label: "WARNING: Do not attempt to learn special relativity from this document!!" ROFL! That *is* priceless from any POV. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 14:40:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MMeLMi029518; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:40:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MMYZAB026784; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:34:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:26:50 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't > cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a > result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the > centripetal force. This can not be consistent with relativity, for the reasons I repeat below. These issues demonstrate the usefulness of Jefimenko's work. His physics is developed strictly on the basis of retardation - the affects of photon travel delays upon the observer. He shows that the effects of such delays depend on the type of clock being examined, which leads to some potential conflicts with the type SR you are applying. He also derives the laws of electromagnetics, showing the magnetic field is the result of retardation upon observations of the Coulomb field. The magnetic field can not both exist as an independent entity and as an observational effect, otherwise magnetic field intensities should be double that observed. While effects based on retardation are of great interest for predicting observational effects, like apparent clock rate changes and magnetic field strength, they can not possibly explain the twins paradox experiment. When the clocks return to be side by side in the same reference frame, if there is any difference in their times, then those differences have to be due to acceleration, or by Einstein's principle of relativity, due to gravity. They can not be due to retardation effects because there are none. THE ONE DIMENSIONAL MODEL The issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, and such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the critical issues. The difficult math seems to me to disappear in a flash! 8^) No longer are fancy transforms and distance functions required. Further, we can look at each flash from earth as a single photon. As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the photons arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the same reason, the wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on earth appears to the traveler to slow down. However, no matter what kinds of accelerations the traveler has experienced or is experiencing, he keeps receiving his regular periodic set of photons from earth. The only thing that changes are the time increments sensed by the traveler between photons, and their colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from earth, there are always photons in route from earth to the traveler. As the traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he absorbs those photons increases, and he sees a blue shift as well, for the same reason, i.e. the wave peaks arrive faster. The earth increments its clock each time a photon is transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board "earth clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, fewer photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the traveler's on board clock was not affected by his acceleration, his "earth time" clock and local clock will come back in synchronization. Further, his earth time clock and earth's clock will be in perfect synchronization upon arrival. If not, the number of photons sent and the number received can not match, which is nonsense. The only other way for the traveler's clock to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth time" clock for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been affected by the acceleration. If this makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make sense as well, assuming the traveler has an infinite Isp drive, like a ZPE drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he simply does not see any photons from earth. This does not mean he is traveling backwards in time. It only means his communication with earth is cut off (unless of course he has some spooky action at a distance communication device.) When he the traveler turns around, he eventually starts receiving the photons again, but very much blue shifted. When traveling faster than light relative to earth, his earth clock merely stops, it doesn't run backwards. His own local clock, however, keeps on ticking. Again, without some change in the traveler's clock due to acceleration, all the clocks must be in synchronization upon his return. EN-GAUGING > Clock rates in a gravitational field are affected by the > gravitational potential, not the local gravitational field strength. The gravitational potential cannot change without the gravitational strength changing. One dimensionally speaking, anything which is a function of the gravitational potential is a function of the gravitational field plus an arbitrary constant of integration. No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 15:02:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MN2JpK006867; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:02:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MN2996006780; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:02:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:02:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c61fa7$dada0ac0$79037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <1d5.4ca8f14a.31050250@aol.com> Subject: Re: conventional power start-up Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:02:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C61F75.8FB498D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C61F75.8FB498D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, Join the club. I used to think the solution to the problem was to start = my own controls company and heck with ITT. One does learn after 40 years = bucking the big boys.=20 I also like the Emerson dcs. What can I pass on ? the system will never be any better than the = attention one pays to grounding inside the plant.=20 Are you using the 3D cad ? Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: conventional power start-up I have been working, 70 hrs last week, on the checkout of a power = plant Distributed Control System. This control system will go on to on = a power plant in Morresville, NC. Things have changed since I last = worked on one of these. The operator stations used to be constructed of = dedicated hardware. Now the operator stations are Del PC's and the = communications is handled with sun servers. The drops in the plant, were = the plant equipment interfaces to the computer system, are now the only = dedicated hardware.=20 The logical control programming used to involve the writing of = scripts, methods, and codes. A knowledge of UNIX and object oriented = language was required. Now logic blocks (and, or, flip flop, and = sequencers) are picked in an AutoCAD window and pasted into the logic = scheme. With the simulation we have you can see the logic working. The = lines logic activate and turn red. I can concentrate on the control of = the process. I do not have to speak three letter computerize. The = animation of the graphics still requires codes and scripts. I really = like the Emerson Ovation Distributed Control System. I hate the long = hours that I am working. I also need more money. I can't take it for = much longer. I had hoped that the fundamental sources of energy would have = progressed this far. Frank Z ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C61F75.8FB498D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
Join the club. I used to think the solution to = the=20 problem was to start my own controls company and heck with ITT. One does = learn=20 after 40 years bucking the big boys.
I also like the Emerson dcs.
What can I pass on ?  the system will = never be any=20 better than the attention one pays to grounding inside the plant. =
Are you using the 3D cad ?
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 = 9:44=20 AM
Subject: conventional power=20 start-up

I have been working, 70 hrs last week, on the checkout of a power = plant=20 Distributed Control System.  This control system will go on = to on a=20 power plant in Morresville, NC.  Things have changed since I last = worked=20 on one of these.  The operator stations used to be constructed of = dedicated hardware.  Now the operator stations are Del PC's and = the=20 communications is handled with sun servers. The drops in the plant, = were the=20 plant equipment interfaces to the computer system, are now the only = dedicated=20 hardware. 
 
The logical control programming used to involve the writing of = scripts,=20 methods, and codes.  A knowledge of UNIX and object oriented = language was required.  Now logic blocks (and, or, flip = flop,=20 and sequencers) are picked in an AutoCAD window and pasted into = the logic=20 scheme.  With the simulation we have you can see the logic=20 working.  The lines logic activate and turn red.  I can = concentrate on the control of the process.  I do not have to=20 speak three letter computerize.  The animation of the=20 graphics still requires codes and scripts.  I really like = the=20 Emerson Ovation Distributed Control System.  I hate the long = hours that I=20 am working.  I also need more money.  I can't take it for = much=20 longer.
 
 
I had hoped that the fundamental sources of energy would = have=20 progressed this far.
 
 
Frank Z
 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C61F75.8FB498D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 15:07:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MMtNlV003961; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:55:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MMtB58003874; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:53:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Universal Time or Universal Space-Time? In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0MMt2q4003788 Resent-Message-ID: <-QGq9.A.V8.M1A1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (excuse this resend) The dynamical theory of motion known as mechanics and its subsequent revision known as relativity both require that space AND time are a-priori Universally CO-ordinated. However, I now think the universal a-priori CO-ordination of space AND time is an unrealistic demand on nature and on ourselves (since we are apart of nature). This does not mean there is no universal time, it just means we can't expect space to be universally ordered as well. Harry Grimer wrote: > At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: >> > ... >> >> Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: >> >> http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm >> >> or >> >> http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm >> >> Terry > > > Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. That was very > clear. I shall have some comments to make later but I would > just like to make one point now. I think Flandern lets Albert > off far too lightly when he merely writes, > > ======================================== > "In the original SR there was only one > type of coordinate system, the objects > in the experiment, and the "at rest" > reference frame was any of those objects. > ========================================= > > The fact is that this changed the original theory of relativity > completely. I'm sure that people on the periphery of physics, > as I was, are still trying to understand the original theory > which will do their heads in cos, frankly its a lot of */&^%$£*/. > > There should have been the type of recall like they have with > motor cars when they prove defective and dangerous. Sometimes > one needs a good book burning, eh! Error has no rights. > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 15:46:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0MNkOT4026443; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:46:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0MNkLHw026419; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:46:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:46:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:44:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Universal Time or Universal Space-Time? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0MNkIAW026393 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, I used the word universal in a way that is inconsistent with relativity theory. I should have said.... The dynamical theory of motion known as mechanics and its subsequent revision known as relativity both require that space AND time are a-priori CO-ordinated. However, I now think the a-priori CO-ordination of space AND time is an unrealistic demand on nature and on ourselves (since we are apart of nature). This does not mean there is no universal time, it just means we can't expect space to be a-priori co-ordinated as well. Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > (excuse this resend) > > The dynamical theory of motion known as mechanics and its subsequent > revision known as relativity both require that space AND time are a-priori > Universally CO-ordinated. > > However, I now think the universal a-priori CO-ordination of space AND time > is an unrealistic demand on nature and on ourselves (since we are apart of > nature). This does not mean there is no universal time, it just means we > can't expect space to be universally ordered as well. > > Harry > > > Grimer wrote: > >> At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: >>> >> ... >>> >>> Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: >>> >>> http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm >>> >>> or >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm >>> >>> Terry >> >> >> Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. That was very >> clear. I shall have some comments to make later but I would >> just like to make one point now. I think Flandern lets Albert >> off far too lightly when he merely writes, >> >> ======================================== >> "In the original SR there was only one >> type of coordinate system, the objects >> in the experiment, and the "at rest" >> reference frame was any of those objects. >> ========================================= >> >> The fact is that this changed the original theory of relativity >> completely. I'm sure that people on the periphery of physics, >> as I was, are still trying to understand the original theory >> which will do their heads in cos, frankly its a lot of */&^%$£*/. >> >> There should have been the type of recall like they have with >> motor cars when they prove defective and dangerous. Sometimes >> one needs a good book burning, eh! Error has no rights. >> >> Frank Grimer >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 16:06:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N05b9u005185; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:05:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N05XJ5005156; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:05:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:05:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060122160733.02a4a8a0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:07:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: iesi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_408776343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4PEQg.A.fQB.N3B1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_408776343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed New Energy Timestm (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. (iESi) Jan. 22, 2006 --=====================_408776343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" New Energy Timestm (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. (iESi) Jan. 22, 2006

--=====================_408776343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 16:28:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N0PVI5014087; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:25:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N0PPPi014035; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:25:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c61fb3$7b4081f0$79037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <8C7ED8989380658-14F8-2C83@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:25:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hohlraum, Been a fun trip around the world on this thread. I suggested in the past another way of looking at the same thing is to use a silvered perforated movie projector screen, position a like size mirror opposite the screen and another like size mirror behind the perforated screen. Focus a projected image on the first mirror so that the image is reflected on the movis screen. The image "bleeds" through the perforations and reflect back off the rear mirror, thus cascading into infinity.... fun stuff for the mind. With such a setup , one can enjoy the thrill of " time elapse" to one's hearts content thus proving one can perform wonders with numbers while eating cucumbers. Once saw a textbbook on calculus. Only about 30 some pages. Had a wonderful heading stating.. "calculus is made easy by those that know how to teach calculus and difficult by those that don't. When one considers how many fools on earth can calculate, its a wonder calculus is so difficult to understand by the learned." < grin> Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:39 AM Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner > > Final here means when all three clocks are brought back together. > > I have to wonder what the data actually looks like. > > <><><><><><><> > > I don't think anyone has mentioned this site: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 16:30:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N0UDTc016397; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:30:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N06nql005650; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:06:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:06:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060122160356.02a606c8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:07:21 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: iesi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_408746187==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_408746187==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed New Energy Timestm (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. (iESi) Jan. 22, 2006 --=====================_408746187==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" New Energy Timestm (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. (iESi) Jan. 22, 2006

--=====================_408746187==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 16:48:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N0i7gZ023149; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:44:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N0i5gW023134; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:44:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:44:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015e01c61fb6$17cf7a60$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060122160733.02a4a8a0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: iesi Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:43:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, not to split hairs or anything, but from the photo of the "Corporate Office" ...... one might advise potential investors to be forwarned ... less they get fleeced. ... there are many ways to get clipped these days, based on anticipating the next "cutting edge" of energy technology... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 16:48:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N0mPPp024892; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:48:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N0mMEn024868; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:48:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:48:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007201c61fb6$684b92d0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060122160356.02a606c8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: iesi Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:46:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006F_01C61F8C.7F2213A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C61F8C.7F2213A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting Steve. Keep up the good work. I look forward to reading = your report in March on iESi. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Krivit=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: iesi New Energy Timestm (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy = Solutions Inc. (iESi) Jan. 22, 2006=20 ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C61F8C.7F2213A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting Steve.  Keep up the = good=20 work.  I look forward to reading your report in March on = iESi. =20
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steve Krivit
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 = 7:07=20 PM
Subject: iesi

New Energy=20 Timestm=20 (preliminary) Special Report on Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. = (iESi) Jan.=20 22, 2006

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C61F8C.7F2213A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 17:27:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N1RLj7010927; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:27:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N1RGLA010872; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:27:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:27:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:24:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Universal Time or Universal Space-Time? In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20060122190913.00a128d0@pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0N1RCbp010818 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The dynamical theory of motion known as mechanics and its subsequent revision known as relativity both require that space AND time are a-priori Universally CO-ordinated. However, I now think the universal a-priori CO-ordination of space AND time is an unrealistic demand on nature and on ourselves (since we are apart of nature). This does not mean there is no universal time, it just means we can't expect space to be universally ordered as well. Harry Grimer wrote: > At 12:46 pm 22/01/2006 -0500, Terry wrote: >> > ... >> >> Now here is the Beta-atmosphere or Aetherial explanation in lieu of SR: >> >> http://pages.sbcglobal.net/webster.kehr/Chapters/Chapter030-H-K.htm >> >> or >> >> http://tinyurl.com/bqgwm >> >> Terry > > > Thanks for that Tom Van Flandern article Terry. That was very > clear. I shall have some comments to make later but I would > just like to make one point now. I think Flandern lets Albert > off far too lightly when he merely writes, > > ======================================== > "In the original SR there was only one > type of coordinate system, the objects > in the experiment, and the "at rest" > reference frame was any of those objects. > ========================================= > > The fact is that this changed the original theory of relativity > completely. I'm sure that people on the periphery of physics, > as I was, are still trying to understand the original theory > which will do their heads in cos, frankly its a lot of */&^%$£*/. > > There should have been the type of recall like they have with > motor cars when they prove defective and dangerous. Sometimes > one needs a good book burning, eh! Error has no rights. > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 18:23:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N2Kti8002061; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:20:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N2KqfF002032; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:20:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:20:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c61fc3$9ba2cf60$79037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: IESI Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:20:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61F91.5078C990" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61F91.5078C990 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61F91.5078C990" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61F91.5078C990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankVorts, Way back in the stone age JP-4 ( jet fuel) gave us pause during = loading, specially when the humidity was low. Loading a 8000 gallon fuel tank truck became a science before retardants = were used to reduce the static charge buildup. Standing on the top of a = tanker with an open hatch watching the fuel load at night could give a = person the "willies" watching the static charge light up the inside of = the tank like a roman candle.=20 Looking at the vids of IESI test demos at Edmunton bore a remarkable = similarity to the JP-4 experience.. hmmm. cold fusion in a tank?? or = just another of nature's oddities? Maybe a person could put an IPO = together with a barrel of JP-4 on a very dry day. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61F91.5078C990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Vorts,
Way back in the stone age  JP-4 ( jet fuel) gave us pause = during=20 loading, specially when the humidity was low.
 
Loading a 8000 gallon fuel tank truck became a science before = retardants=20 were used to reduce the static charge buildup. Standing on the top of a = tanker=20 with an open hatch watching the fuel load at night could give a person = the=20 "willies" watching the static charge light up the inside of the tank = like a=20 roman candle.
 
Looking at the vids of IESI test demos at Edmunton bore a = remarkable=20 similarity to the JP-4 experience.. hmmm. cold fusion in a tank?? or = just=20 another of nature's oddities? Maybe a person could put an IPO = together=20 with a barrel of JP-4 on a very dry day.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C61F91.5078C990-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61F91.5078C990 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c61fc3$9b0b9870$79037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C61F91.5078C990-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 18:38:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N2c6qO010079; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:38:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N2c2Uo010022; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:38:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:38:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009c01c61fc5$caae8090$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:36:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0099_01C61F9B.E12A5E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C61F9B.E12A5E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Z machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to produce = conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased the machine's = X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two years. http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Researchers at Sandia National Laboratories' Z = machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to produce = conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased the machine's = X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two years. The most recent advance resulted in an output X-ray power of about 290 = trillion watts -- for billionths of a second, about 80 times the entire = world's output of electricity. The figure represents almost a 40 percent increase over the 210 trillion = watts -- itself a world record -- reported last summer. Strangely, the power used in each trial is only enough to provide = electricity to about 100 houses for two minutes. Electricity is provided = by ordinary wall current from a local utility company. Yet particles imploded in the accelerator's tiny targets -- about the = size of a spool of thread -- reach velocities that would fly a plane = from Los Angeles to New York in a second. Z's advance in power is expected to make a major contribution to the = Department of Energy's (DOE) science-based approach to stockpile = stewardship, which must use giant computing and laboratory experiments = to provide the basis to sustain the nation's nuclear stockpile without = above- or below-ground tests. This achievement resulted from advances in = theory and experiments by a team involving DOE and Department of Defense = labs, and universities. Achieved 1.6 million degrees C In a different series of experiments, the accelerator achieved a = temperature of approximately 1.6 million degrees Celsius (140 electron = volts) in a container the size of a spool of thread. Other experiments in a still smaller volume target suggest temperatures = may eventually be achieved on Z in the range of 2.0 to 2.2 million = degrees. The now-realistic goal of reaching 2.0 million degrees is so = significant because radiation temperatures in the range of two million = to three million degrees are generally considered an essential condition = for nuclear fusion. This potential for the Z facility was demonstrated in experiments = performed by a group from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in = California and a group from Sandia in New Mexico. These small-volume experiments have thus far been limited by implosion = instabilities, but the most recent results indicate that these = instabilities can be controlled. A year and a half ago, Z could achieve = a radiation temperature of only 0.7 million degrees. Each doubling of = temperature theoretically results in a 16-fold increase in intensity of = the radiation, necessary to drive a fusion capsule. Other requirements for fusion, besides temperature, include adequate = energy and power in X-rays to symmetrically compress a capsule = containing fusion fuel until it ignites to achieve high-yield fusion. Milestones Z was expected to achieve were an X-ray energy of 1.5 = megajoules -- achieved is 2.0 megajoules. The power milestone was 150 = terawatts -- achieved, 290 terawatts. There were two milestones in = temperature: the first for weapons physics configurations was 100 eV = (1.2 million degrees). The achieved value was 140 eV (1.6 million = degrees). The second temperature milestone in a configuration suitable = for target compression experiments was 150 eV (1.7 million degrees). = Sandia has achieved 140 eV (1.6 million degrees). Close to fourth milestone "We have now met three of four milestones we set for Z, and are very = close to meeting the fourth -- a radiation temperature of 1.7 million = degrees," says Don Cook, director of Sandia's Pulsed Power Sciences = Center. These results show that X-1, a larger accelerator scheduled to = follow Z, should be able to produce 16 million joules of energy, more = than 1,000 trillion watts of power, and temperatures of more than 3 = million degrees. Because Sandia's concept for X-1 is based on the high = efficiency already demonstrated on the Z -- 15 percent from energy going = into the accelerator to energy coming out in X-rays -- the cost of X-1 = is expected to be modest. Sandia is seeking support from DOE for = embarking on the conceptual design of X-1 and plans to make a formal = request to do so this spring. If DOE approves start of a conceptual = design this year, X-1 should be able to contribute to DOE's = science-based stockpile stewardship program in a timely way. X-1 will = provide laboratory data on the physics of nuclear weapons implosions and = their effects. The data are necessary to validate the increasingly = sophisticated computational models of weapon performance, without = underground testing. An affordable approach to high yield Z relies upon wall-current electricity to charge giant capacitor banks = and upon enormous metal cables that connect to a central vacuum chamber, = 10 feet in diameter and 20 feet high. When the accelerator fires, powerful electrical pulses are delivered by = 36 transmission cables protected by insulation techniques developed over = the last 30 years. Highly synchronized laser-triggered switches allow = the stored energy to be discharged simultaneously through the 36 cables, = each as big around as a horse and 30 feet long, arranged like spokes of = a wheel and insulated by water. The enormous electrical pulse of 50 = trillion watts strikes a complex target about the size of a spool of = thread. (The machine is named Z because the current passing directly = into the target travels vertically -- a direction conventionally labeled = "z" by mathematicians and physicists to distinguish it from the x and y = directions, both horizontal.) The target consists of a metal can containing several hundred nearly = invisible tungsten wires, each much smaller in diameter than a human = hair. The metal can, called a hohlraum, functions like an oven, = confining radiation energy released when the wires first explode and = then subsequently collapse on themselves. Several variations of this = assembly are responsible for increasing the temperature and power of Z. Collisions produce intense radiation In experiments with the basic vacuum hohlraum, the discharge of energy = through the wires creates a magnetic field that compresses the exploded = wire array at a speed equivalent to traveling 3,000 miles in one second. = The vaporized particles, pushed inward by the magnetic field, collide = with each other at the magnetic axis. The collisions produce intense = radiation, enough to heat the surrounding walls of the hohlraum to 140 = eV (approximately 1.6 million degrees). The X-ray radiation emitted from = the walls is then used to study the properties of materials at high = temperatures and pressures. By placing coreless (annular) or solid cylinders inside the wire array = (an arrangement called a dynamic or internal hohlraum), even higher = temperatures can be achieved inside the rapidly compressed volume. = Researchers experimented with wire arrays imploding onto cylinders made = of plastic foam, with two-dimensional computer simulation support from = Los Alamos National Laboratory. The group has achieved 1.6 million degrees C (140 eV) in useful form -- = that is, able to drive a fusion capsule -- and 2.2 million degrees (190 = eV) as a peak temperature. Increases in "useful" and peak temperatures = are expected in upcoming experiments because better design will help = control instabilities in the interior, heated region. This is the next = challenge faced by all Z researchers. In collaborative experiments among Lawrence Livermore and Sandia = scientists, led by Arthur Toor of Lawrence Livermore, foam layers = surrounding a beryllium tube are used inside the wire array, thereby = providing a slower, more precise collapse of the imploding plasma. This = arrangement produced a hohlraum temperature of 170 eV -- 2 million = degrees -- in a configuration useful for studies of weapons physics.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C61F9B.E12A5E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Z machine --=20 the former dark horse among accelerators meant to produce conditions = required=20 for nuclear fusion -- have increased the machine's X-ray power output by = nearly=20 10 times in the last two years.

http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Researchers at = Sandia=20 National Laboratories' Z machine -- the former dark horse among = accelerators=20 meant to produce conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have = increased the=20 machine's X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two=20 years.

The most recent advance resulted in an output X-ray power = of about=20 290 trillion watts -- for billionths of a second, about 80 times the = entire=20 world's output of electricity.

The figure represents almost a 40 = percent=20 increase over the 210 trillion watts -- itself a world record -- = reported last=20 summer.

Strangely, the power used in each trial is only = enough to=20 provide electricity to about 100 houses for two minutes. Electricity is = provided=20 by ordinary wall current from a local utility = company.

Yet=20 particles imploded in the accelerator's tiny targets -- about the size = of a=20 spool of thread -- reach velocities that would fly a plane from Los = Angeles to=20 New York in a second.

Z's advance in power is expected to make a = major=20 contribution to the Department of Energy's (DOE) science-based approach = to=20 stockpile stewardship, which must use giant computing and laboratory = experiments=20 to provide the basis to sustain the nation's nuclear stockpile without = above- or=20 below-ground tests. This achievement resulted from advances in theory = and=20 experiments by a team involving DOE and Department of Defense labs, and=20 universities.

Achieved 1.6 million degrees C
In a different = series of=20 experiments, the accelerator achieved a temperature of approximately 1.6 = million=20 degrees Celsius (140 electron volts) in a container the size of a spool = of=20 thread.

Other experiments in a still smaller volume target = suggest=20 temperatures may eventually be achieved on Z in the range of 2.0 to 2.2 = million=20 degrees. The now-realistic goal of reaching 2.0 million degrees is so=20 significant because radiation temperatures in the range of two million = to three=20 million degrees are generally considered an essential condition for = nuclear=20 fusion.

This potential for the Z facility was demonstrated in = experiments=20 performed by a group from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in = California=20 and a group from Sandia in New Mexico.

These small-volume = experiments=20 have thus far been limited by implosion instabilities, but the most = recent=20 results indicate that these instabilities can be controlled. A year and = a half=20 ago, Z could achieve a radiation temperature of only 0.7 million = degrees. Each=20 doubling of temperature theoretically results in a 16-fold increase in = intensity=20 of the radiation, necessary to drive a fusion capsule.

Other = requirements=20 for fusion, besides temperature, include adequate energy and power in = X-rays to=20 symmetrically compress a capsule containing fusion fuel until it ignites = to=20 achieve high-yield fusion.

Milestones Z was expected to achieve = were an=20 X-ray energy of 1.5 megajoules -- achieved is 2.0 megajoules. The power=20 milestone was 150 terawatts -- achieved, 290 terawatts. There were two=20 milestones in temperature: the first for weapons physics configurations = was 100=20 eV (1.2 million degrees). The achieved value was 140 eV (1.6 million = degrees).=20 The second temperature milestone in a configuration suitable for target=20 compression experiments was 150 eV (1.7 million degrees). Sandia has = achieved=20 140 eV (1.6 million degrees).

Close to fourth milestone
"We = have now=20 met three of four milestones we set for Z, and are very close to meeting = the=20 fourth -- a radiation temperature of 1.7 million degrees," says Don = Cook,=20 director of Sandia's Pulsed Power Sciences Center. These results show = that X-1,=20 a larger accelerator scheduled to follow Z, should be able to produce 16 = million=20 joules of energy, more than 1,000 trillion watts of power, and = temperatures of=20 more than 3 million degrees. Because Sandia's concept for X-1 is based = on the=20 high efficiency already demonstrated on the Z -- 15 percent from energy = going=20 into the accelerator to energy coming out in X-rays -- the cost of X-1 = is=20 expected to be modest. Sandia is seeking support from DOE for embarking = on the=20 conceptual design of X-1 and plans to make a formal request to do so = this=20 spring. If DOE approves start of a conceptual design this year, X-1 = should be=20 able to contribute to DOE's science-based stockpile stewardship program = in a=20 timely way. X-1 will provide laboratory data on the physics of nuclear = weapons=20 implosions and their effects. The data are necessary to validate the=20 increasingly sophisticated computational models of weapon performance, = without=20 underground testing.

An affordable approach to high yield
Z = relies=20 upon wall-current electricity to charge giant capacitor banks and upon = enormous=20 metal cables that connect to a central vacuum chamber, 10 feet in = diameter and=20 20 feet high.

When the accelerator fires, powerful electrical = pulses are=20 delivered by 36 transmission cables protected by insulation techniques = developed=20 over the last 30 years. Highly synchronized laser-triggered switches = allow the=20 stored energy to be discharged simultaneously through the 36 cables, = each as big=20 around as a horse and 30 feet long, arranged like spokes of a wheel and=20 insulated by water. The enormous electrical pulse of 50 trillion watts = strikes a=20 complex target about the size of a spool of thread. (The machine is = named Z=20 because the current passing directly into the target travels vertically = -- a=20 direction conventionally labeled "z" by mathematicians and physicists to = distinguish it from the x and y directions, both horizontal.)

The = target=20 consists of a metal can containing several hundred nearly invisible = tungsten=20 wires, each much smaller in diameter than a human hair. The metal can, = called a=20 hohlraum, functions like an oven, confining radiation energy released = when the=20 wires first explode and then subsequently collapse on themselves. = Several=20 variations of this assembly are responsible for increasing the = temperature and=20 power of Z.

Collisions produce intense radiation
In = experiments with=20 the basic vacuum hohlraum, the discharge of energy through the wires = creates a=20 magnetic field that compresses the exploded wire array at a speed = equivalent to=20 traveling 3,000 miles in one second. The vaporized particles, pushed = inward by=20 the magnetic field, collide with each other at the magnetic axis. The = collisions=20 produce intense radiation, enough to heat the surrounding walls of the = hohlraum=20 to 140 eV (approximately 1.6 million degrees). The X-ray radiation = emitted from=20 the walls is then used to study the properties of materials at high = temperatures=20 and pressures.

By placing coreless (annular) or solid cylinders = inside=20 the wire array (an arrangement called a dynamic or internal hohlraum), = even=20 higher temperatures can be achieved inside the rapidly compressed = volume.=20 Researchers experimented with wire arrays imploding onto cylinders made = of=20 plastic foam, with two-dimensional computer simulation support from Los = Alamos=20 National Laboratory.

The group has achieved 1.6 million degrees C = (140=20 eV) in useful form -- that is, able to drive a fusion capsule -- and 2.2 = million=20 degrees (190 eV) as a peak temperature. Increases in "useful" and peak=20 temperatures are expected in upcoming experiments because better design = will=20 help control instabilities in the interior, heated region. This is the = next=20 challenge faced by all Z researchers.

In collaborative = experiments among=20 Lawrence Livermore and Sandia scientists, led by Arthur Toor of Lawrence = Livermore, foam layers surrounding a beryllium tube are used inside the = wire=20 array, thereby providing a slower, more precise collapse of the = imploding=20 plasma. This arrangement produced a hohlraum temperature of 170 eV -- 2 = million=20 degrees -- in a configuration useful for studies of weapons physics. =
 
------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C61F9B.E12A5E40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 19:18:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N3HZLd026874; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:17:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N3HT8Z026815; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:17:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:17:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Dufour et al Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:04:07 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A brief comment regarding the Dufour et al article at: I notice the Electron Induced Nuclear Reactions (EINR) model was dismissed (on page 4 top) on the basis of COE. However, COE in the form of signatures is the very issue at hand and thus not a valid reason to dismiss anything. No one seems to get the notion that if energy can be borrowed from the vacuum it can be returned. If tunneling electron catalyzed fusion occurs, the resulting nucleus has returned much of the energy to the vacuum. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 19:25:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N3PGUE031162; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:25:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N3PCmZ031125; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:25:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:25:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:25:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sigh ... There is nothing easy to _understand_ about relativity. The math of SR is relatively simple but the consequences are not. Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't cite >> references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a result >> of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the >> centripetal force. > > > This can not be consistent with relativity, But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. In SR, where it's an add-on, it's called the "Clocks hypothesis" and makes it possible to extend SR to cover accelerated frames. Either way, it's been verified a number of times because people weren't sure whether to believe it or not, and there were competing theories which differed on this point. Without the independence from acceleration, there would be no way to construct a useful locally inertial frame for a given coordinate system and a lot of the techniques (and proofs) used in GR would not work. But I see the problem: there is a piece missing. Acceleration affects _DISTANT_ clocks. This is weird. Please look here: http://physicsinsights.org/revolving_astronaut.html As you observe elsewhere, acceleration is equivalent to a uniform G-field. When you accelerate away from something that's far, far away, time on that object seems to run backwards. What happens if you replace the "acceleration field" with a real, uniform, space-filling gravitational field? How can time really run backwards? Answer: you get something called a "Rindler horizon" which appears at the distance from you where time stops, and it's just like the event horizon around a black hole. The clocks which run backwards are on the wrong side of the Rindler horizon and no information from those clocks can ever reach you unless you stop accelerating (or turn off the space-filling G field). I am not being intentionally obscure. > for the reasons I repeat > below. These issues demonstrate the usefulness of Jefimenko's work. > His physics is developed strictly on the basis of retardation - the > affects of photon travel delays upon the observer. He shows that the > effects of such delays depend on the type of clock being examined, > which leads to some potential conflicts with the type SR you are > applying. If I understand you correctly, that is a flat violation of the principle of relativity. If different types of clocks are affected differently by ones velocity, then the laws of physics are not independent of velocity. That may be true, but if so, then then theory of "relativity", both general and special, must certainly be incorrect. As of this moment, no experiment has shown different kinds of clocks to show differing degrees of time dilation, which is what I believe you are saying he claims here. If such an experiment ever shows a non-null result, the consequences will depend critically on who did it and how easy it is to replicate. If the experimenter is well known and replication is straightforward it will stand a great deal of physics on its head. If the experimenter is not well-known and the effect is hard to replicate, it will be dismissed as obviously absurd because it contradicts relativity. I believe Jefimenko may have swung enough weight to pull down relativity _if_ he had actually had the evidence to back him up, but I don't think he did. Feel free to contradict me, of course! > He also derives the laws of electromagnetics, showing the > magnetic field is the result of retardation upon observations of the > Coulomb field. I think this part of his work may now be incorporated into the standard theory, if I understand you correctly. > The magnetic field can not both exist as an independent > entity and as an observational effect, otherwise magnetic field > intensities should be double that observed. Say what? It's not independent, it's part of the EM field...? > While effects based on retardation are of great interest for predicting > observational effects, like apparent clock rate changes and magnetic > field strength, they can not possibly explain the twins paradox > experiment. When the clocks return to be side by side in the same > reference frame, if there is any difference in their times, then those > differences have to be due to acceleration, or by Einstein's principle > of relativity, due to gravity. They can not be due to retardation > effects because there are none. OK, I admit it, I'm lost here. In Einstein's relativity, the twins "paradox" is resolved by the fact that the moving twin's path deviated from a geodesic. The geodesic path represents a (locally) maximal path; any deviation results in a shorter path. Acceleration necessarily takes you off a geodesic, and results in less time passing. HOWEVER the relationship is not simple, as in "more acceleration => more dilation", and the effect is not direct. Now, let me say this again, as clearly as possible: The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the experiments which have been done. Let me say this, even more clearly: Any attempt to boil the math of relativity down to a few simple English sentences which "explain" it will fail. Any attempt to explain time dilation as a simple ratio will also fail. We can state things like the principle of relativity in English. But trying to explain "why" one twin ages by a particular amount using English is doomed to failure. "The twin ages less because of the acceleration" is a simple English sentence and necessarily gives an incomplete picture. As I mentioned in an earlier post [and earlier in this post -- I think I'm repeating myself], in this case acceleration is only HALF of the picture, because acceleration doesn't affect clocks directly. What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When YOU accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which you are accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. Clocks that are far, far away from you but "behind" you, so you're accelerating _away_ from them, seem to run slower, or even run _backwards_. If the moving twin accelerates toward Earth when far away from Earth, it appears to him that, during the acceleration, clocks on Earth whizz ahead very rapidly. If he does the same thing when adjacent to Earth, nothing much happens. The distance makes the difference, and the distance depends on how long the "coasting" phase of the trip lasted. But really, the fundamental problem is that the "rate" of a clock in relativity theory is NOT A NUMBER. The time "coordinate" for a particular frame of reference is a scalar field on a 4-dimensinoal manifold, and the "rate at which it passes" is the gradient 1-form associated with that scalar field. The rate at which you see a clock associated with a particular reference frame tick depends on the angle your worldline makes with the time coordinate gradient of that FoR. > THE ONE DIMENSIONAL MODEL > > The issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, and > such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the critical issues. > The difficult math seems to me to disappear in a flash! 8^) No longer > are fancy transforms and distance functions required. Further, we can > look at each flash from earth as a single photon. > > As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth > transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the photons > arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the same reason, the > wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on earth appears to the > traveler to slow down. However, no matter what kinds of accelerations > the traveler has experienced or is experiencing, he keeps receiving his > regular periodic set of photons from earth. The only thing that > changes are the time increments sensed by the traveler between photons, > and their colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he > accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from earth, > there are always photons in route from earth to the traveler. As the > traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he absorbs those photons > increases, and he sees a blue shift as well, for the same reason, i.e. > the wave peaks arrive faster. The earth increments its clock each time > a photon is transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board > "earth clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar > clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. > > As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, fewer > photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the traveler's on > board clock was not affected by his acceleration, his "earth time" > clock and local clock will come back in synchronization. Further, his > earth time clock and earth's clock will be in perfect synchronization > upon arrival. If not, the number of photons sent and the number > received can not match, which is nonsense. The only other way for the > traveler's clock to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth > time" clock for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been > affected by the acceleration. Yes, it is "affected" by the acceleration -- the acceleration changed the worldline of the traveler, and moved him onto a shorter path. No, the acceleration was not directly responsible for the dilation. If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll experience a lot of time skew. > > If this makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make sense > as well, assuming the traveler has an infinite Isp drive, like a ZPE > drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he simply does not > see any photons from earth. This does not mean he is traveling > backwards in time. It only means his communication with earth is cut > off (unless of course he has some spooky action at a distance > communication device.) When he the traveler turns around, he > eventually starts receiving the photons again, but very much blue > shifted. When traveling faster than light relative to earth, his earth > clock merely stops, it doesn't run backwards. His own local clock, > however, keeps on ticking. Again, without some change in the > traveler's clock due to acceleration, all the clocks must be in > synchronization upon his return. > > > EN-GAUGING > >> Clock rates in a gravitational field are affected by the >> gravitational potential, not the local gravitational field strength. > > > The gravitational potential cannot change without the gravitational > strength changing. Ho ho, I'm glad you asked me that! :-) This is a fun subject. First, there's no deep GR math here. We throw that all away, and just go back to the original Gedanken experiment which led to the conclusion that there had to be a gravitational redshift. It goes like this: Einstein stands on a ladder. Poincare is seated on the floor. Einstein drops a rock on Poincare. As the rock falls, it gains energy. Poincare catches the rock, and turns it ... all if it, _including_ the energy it gained during the fall ... into a beam of light, which he shoots back up at Einstein. Einstein catches the lightray, and turns it back into a rock. But the energy of the lightray included all the energy of the original rock _plus_ the energy gained during the fall. So, the final rock weighs more than the original rock. OOPS -- First law violation -- we've just extracted energy from a conservative field. To fix this, we must assume the light was redshifted during its trip up the ladder. To make the gravitational redshift work with the principle of relativity (which says, basically, physical laws are the same everywhere) we find that time must run more slowly for Poincare, sitting on the floor. Einstein, standing on a ladder, has a clock which ticks faster, so Poincare's light beam _looks_ redshifted to Einstein. Let me reiterate: The problem was the difference in _potential_ energy, which had to be compensated for _somehow_. Now, let's go down, down, to the very center of the Earth, and carve a spherical chamber out of the rock. Inside a hollow planet, there's NO APPARENT GRAVITY, as we all know, Edgar Rice Burroughs' book "Pellucidar" aside. Now, drill a skinny hole all the way from the surface of the earth to the chamber in the center of the earth. Put an astronaut carrying a watch into the chamber down inside, and put another one on the surface of the Earth. Whose clock runs faster? The one on the surface is experiencing 1G of acceleration, the one inside is experiencing zero g. To answer this, let the one on the surface drop a rock down the hole. It gains energy. At the bottom of the hole, turn the rock, and the energy it gained during the fall, into a light ray, and send it back to the surface. It _must_ be redshifted, else we'd have another first-law violation. And the redshift means the clocks down inside must run _slower_. The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. > One dimensionally speaking, anything which is a > function of the gravitational potential is a function of the > gravitational field plus an arbitrary constant of integration. Again, I can construct a situation where the potential increases while the field strength is constant or even drops. Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. > No > matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational > field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the > effects of acceleration (this difference at any point) then Einstein's > fundamental assumption for GR is violated and GR disappears in a > flash! 8^) > > I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod > approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem to > account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes behind the > earth in the opposite direction. You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. The "date line" is the point where we cut the ring and straighten it out. Note that the usual way to "synchronize" the clocks on the Earth involves using an external standard, like sidereal time; in reality, when "synchronized" this way, no two clocks at separate longitudes are exactly in sync in the "Earth frame". What does that mean? It means that if you take a single clock and carry it _very_ slowly to a neighboring clock which was nominally in sync with it you'll find that they don't agree. The one you moved will seem to have gone off-sync, no matter how slowly you moved it. Alternatively, if you try to radio-sync them, you'll find that the result doesn't agree with the "sidereal time synchronization", and if you try to radio-sync all of them all the way around the Earth you're back to the first situation with a "date line" someplace. > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 21:45:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N5jg2H025936; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:45:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N5jfdx025919; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:45:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino ice....? Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:45:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001c01c61a36$abb2b650$1714fea9@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001c01c61a36$abb2b650$1714fea9@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.58.169] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 23 Jan 2006 05:45:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0N5jY5P025829 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:49:12 -0800: Hi, [snip] >BTW..we do know that moon rocks contain an incredibly large >proportion of 3He *in the rock* which has always been assumed to >have a solar origin... being impregnated in the rock by the high >speed - but think about that for a minute. Why so much 3He and so >little 4He, H and D ??? H + H -> D is very rare. Almost as soon as it is formed, the reaction H + D -> He3 takes place. He3 + He3 -> He4 + 2H takes longer because it requires a heavy He3 nucleus with a double positive charge to tunnel into another nucleus with a double positive charge. Consequently He3 tends to build up, while D is relatively rapidly consumed. Result lots of H, some He3, and almost no D or He4. I would be very surprised if there were more He3 in moon rocks than H (and I would consider this a feather in Mills' cap, as He3 in the solar atmosphere should act as a hydrino catalyst, eventually catalyzing the reactions above). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 22:36:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N6VECa012677; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:31:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N6V7Ex012633; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:31:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 01:28:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus In-reply-to: <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. You can't > synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. Clock synchronization is only impossible with "dumb" clocks. "Intelligent" clocks could be designed and programmed to modulate their own clock rate to control for the effects of motion. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 22 23:50:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0N7o3Db014119; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:50:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0N7nwQx014054; Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:49:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:49:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:47:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <5wE_4.A.fbD.lqI1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 22, 2006, at 6:25 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Sigh ... There is nothing easy to _understand_ about relativity. > > The math of SR is relatively simple but the consequences are not. > > Horace Heffner wrote: >> On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't >>> cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as >>> a result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result >>> of the centripetal force. >> This can not be consistent with relativity, > > But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into relativity. If a clock does not change with acceleration then the equivalence, by definition, is broken. A clock in a centrifuge must slow down in part because it is accelerating ... or there is no time dilation due to gravity. [snip] > > As you observe elsewhere, acceleration is equivalent to a uniform G- > field. This seems to contradict what you just said above. > When you accelerate away from something that's far, far away, time > on that object seems to run backwards. Hopefully we are not going to get sidetracked talking about how things *appear* in motion. I am trying to focus on what happens when clocks can be brought back together. > What happens if you replace the "acceleration field" with a real, > uniform, space-filling gravitational field? How can time really > run backwards? Answer: you get something called a "Rindler > horizon" which appears at the distance from you where time stops, > and it's just like the event horizon around a black hole. The > clocks which run backwards are on the wrong side of the Rindler > horizon and no information from those clocks can ever reach you > unless you stop accelerating (or turn off the space-filling G field). > > I am not being intentionally obscure. I think the above above only makes the simple complex. My proposition is simple: if clocks go away and then come back together, any difference in time can not be due to any effect caused by retardation. If velocity can not affect the clocks then a difference in final time must be due to acceleration along the path. > > >> for the reasons I repeat below. These issues demonstrate the >> usefulness of Jefimenko's work. His physics is developed strictly >> on the basis of retardation - the affects of photon travel delays >> upon the observer. He shows that the effects of such delays >> depend on the type of clock being examined, which leads to some >> potential conflicts with the type SR you are applying. > > If I understand you correctly, that is a flat violation of the > principle of relativity. If different types of clocks are affected > differently by ones velocity, then the laws of physics are not > independent of velocity. Clocks of some kinds are affected by velocity as well as acceleration. Those clocks which involve mass, like muon decay rates, atomic fine structure, etc. are affected by the fact m = m0*gamma. Clocks not involving mass, like photons bouncing between mirrors, behave differently, and their behavior is a result of retardation, if I understand Jefimenko. Jefimenko shows us how far relativity can go on just retardation. Jefimenko does use m=m0*gamma in his clock calculations for clocks involving mass. I think I neglected to mention that. > > That may be true, but if so, then then theory of "relativity", both > general and special, must certainly be incorrect. The problem I think is distinguishing between types of clocks. There is a big issue as to whether m = m0*gamma is talking about a real effect. This relation was discovered before relativity. It was originally considered a real effect, and if so there was no problem accepting that clocks actually slowed down for moving objects. > > As of this moment, no experiment has shown different kinds of > clocks to show differing degrees of time dilation, which is what I > believe you are saying he claims here. Yes, I think he does. > If such an experiment ever shows a non-null result, the > consequences will depend critically on who did it and how easy it > is to replicate. If the experimenter is well known and replication > is straightforward it will stand a great deal of physics on its > head. If the experimenter is not well-known and the effect is hard > to replicate, it will be dismissed as obviously absurd because it > contradicts relativity. I don;t know of any experiments involving (a) mass free clocks and (clocks returning to the point of origin. > > I believe Jefimenko may have swung enough weight to pull down > relativity _if_ he had actually had the evidence to back him up, > but I don't think he did. Feel free to contradict me, of course! It would be tough to design the experiment I think. > > >> He also derives the laws of electromagnetics, showing the >> magnetic field is the result of retardation upon observations of >> the Coulomb field. > > I think this part of his work may now be incorporated into the > standard theory, if I understand you correctly. > > >> The magnetic field can not both exist as an independent entity >> and as an observational effect, otherwise magnetic field >> intensities should be double that observed. > > Say what? > > It's not independent, it's part of the EM field...? The point is there is no magnetic field. There are no special messenger particles for the magnetic field. The momentum exchange is purely by virtual photons. The only field is the Coulomb field. The magnetic effects are mere artifacts of retardation. > > >> While effects based on retardation are of great interest for >> predicting observational effects, like apparent clock rate >> changes and magnetic field strength, they can not possibly >> explain the twins paradox experiment. When the clocks return to >> be side by side in the same reference frame, if there is any >> difference in their times, then those differences have to be due >> to acceleration, or by Einstein's principle of relativity, due to >> gravity. They can not be due to retardation effects because >> there are none. > > OK, I admit it, I'm lost here. Retardation only explains what is *observed* between the clock separation and clock rejoining. Any effect based purely on retardation disappears upon clock rejoining. In other words it is completely undone in the process of return. Any time difference remaining is a result of actual effects upon the clock. Effects due to m=m0*gamma can not be reversed, so I would consider these actual effects as opposed to retardation effects, because they are not undone upon return. This seems to me to be a really simple concept. Some effects due to acceleration or gravity may also fall into this "real" category because they are not undone by simply leaving a gravitational field or stopping or reversing the acceleration. > > In Einstein's relativity, the twins "paradox" is resolved by the > fact that the moving twin's path deviated from a geodesic. The > geodesic path represents a (locally) maximal path; any deviation > results in a shorter path. Acceleration necessarily takes you off > a geodesic, and results in less time passing. HOWEVER the > relationship is not simple, as in "more acceleration => more > dilation", and the effect is not direct. > > Now, let me say this again, as clearly as possible: > > The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on > whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has > been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the > experiments which have been done. Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false assumption. > > Let me say this, even more clearly: > > Any attempt to boil the math of relativity That is the last thing I would want to do! I just want to distinguish between retardation effects and other effects. > down to a few simple English sentences which "explain" it will fail. I am not explaining anything, merely pointing out some inconsistencies. > Any attempt to explain time dilation as a simple ratio will also > fail. > > We can state things like the principle of relativity in English. > But trying to explain "why" one twin ages by a particular amount > using English is doomed to failure. "The twin ages less because of > the acceleration" is a simple English sentence and necessarily > gives an incomplete picture. Agreed - but only if you agree that clocks involving mass actually change due to velocity alone. In other words, if m = m0*gamma is purely due to appearances, i.e. due to retardation, then the only effect left to cause a time difference upon rejoining the clocks is acceleration. I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. > > As I mentioned in an earlier post [and earlier in this post -- I > think I'm repeating myself], in this case acceleration is only HALF > of the picture, because acceleration doesn't affect clocks directly. If acceleration does not affect clocks directly then neither does gravity. > What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When YOU > accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which you are > accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. Irrelevant. Who cares how the clocks appear during the journey. I only care what happens when they come back together in the same location in the same reference frame. Then all retardation effects have cancelled because there is no retardation remaining. > Clocks that are far, far away from you but "behind" you, so you're > accelerating _away_ from them, seem to run slower, or even run > _backwards_. If the moving twin accelerates toward Earth when far > away from Earth, it appears to him that, during the acceleration, > clocks on Earth whizz ahead very rapidly. If he does the same > thing when adjacent to Earth, nothing much happens. The distance > makes the difference, and the distance depends on how long the > "coasting" phase of the trip lasted. > > But really, the fundamental problem is that the "rate" of a clock > in relativity theory is NOT A NUMBER. The time "coordinate" for a > particular frame of reference is a scalar field on a 4-dimensinoal > manifold, and the "rate at which it passes" is the gradient 1-form > associated with that scalar field. The rate at which you see a > clock associated with a particular reference frame tick depends on > the angle your worldline makes with the time coordinate gradient of > that FoR. > > >> THE ONE DIMENSIONAL MODEL >> The issues are simplified by looking at things one dimensionally, >> and such a simplified system is sufficient to examine the >> critical issues. The difficult math seems to me to disappear in >> a flash! 8^) No longer are fancy transforms and distance >> functions required. Further, we can look at each flash from >> earth as a single photon. >> As the traveler departs in a straight line away from the earth >> transmission point, and distance from earth gets greater, the >> photons arrive further apart in time, and red shifted for the >> same reason, the wave peaks arrive slower, thus time back on >> earth appears to the traveler to slow down. However, no matter >> what kinds of accelerations the traveler has experienced or is >> experiencing, he keeps receiving his regular periodic set of >> photons from earth. The only thing that changes are the time >> increments sensed by the traveler between photons, and their >> colors. No matter where he is or how far he goes or how he >> accelerates, assuming a fast rate of photon transmission from >> earth, there are always photons in route from earth to the >> traveler. As the traveler turns about, and returns, the rate he >> absorbs those photons increases, and he sees a blue shift as >> well, for the same reason, i.e. the wave peaks arrive faster. >> The earth increments its clock each time a photon is >> transmitted. The traveler can increment his on board "earth >> clock" each time he receives a photon. He can use a similar >> clock to the earth clock to keep track of his local time. >> As the traveler closes the distance to earth on the return trip, >> fewer photons are in flight with passing time. Assuming the >> traveler's on board clock was not affected by his acceleration, >> his "earth time" clock and local clock will come back in >> synchronization. Further, his earth time clock and earth's clock >> will be in perfect synchronization upon arrival. If not, the >> number of photons sent and the number received can not match, >> which is nonsense. The only other way for the traveler's clock >> to not agree with the earth clock, or his own "earth time" clock >> for that matter, is for the traveler's clock to have been >> affected by the acceleration. > > Yes, it is "affected" by the acceleration -- the acceleration > changed the worldline of the traveler, and moved him onto a shorter > path. > > No, the acceleration was not directly responsible for the dilation. > > If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few > microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll > experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he > accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll > experience a lot of time skew. OK, but then this implies the clock is mass related, and m=m0*gamma is a real, not a retardation effect. > >> If this makes any sense, then faster than light travel can make >> sense as well, assuming the traveler has an infinite Isp drive, >> like a ZPE drive. As the traveler exceeds the speed of light, he >> simply does not see any photons from earth. This does not mean >> he is traveling backwards in time. It only means his >> communication with earth is cut off (unless of course he has some >> spooky action at a distance communication device.) When he the >> traveler turns around, he eventually starts receiving the photons >> again, but very much blue shifted. When traveling faster than >> light relative to earth, his earth clock merely stops, it doesn't >> run backwards. His own local clock, however, keeps on ticking. >> Again, without some change in the traveler's clock due to >> acceleration, all the clocks must be in synchronization upon his >> return. >> EN-GAUGING >>> Clock rates in a gravitational field are affected by the >>> gravitational potential, not the local gravitational field strength. >> The gravitational potential cannot change without the >> gravitational strength changing. > > Ho ho, I'm glad you asked me that! :-) This is a fun subject. I wish I had time for the discussion. > > First, there's no deep GR math here. We throw that all away, and > just go back to the original Gedanken experiment which led to the > conclusion that there had to be a gravitational redshift. It goes > like this: > > Einstein stands on a ladder. Poincare is seated on the floor. > Einstein drops a rock on Poincare. As the rock falls, it gains > energy. Poincare catches the rock, and turns it ... all if it, > _including_ the energy it gained during the fall ... into a beam of > light, which he shoots back up at Einstein. Einstein catches the > lightray, and turns it back into a rock. > > But the energy of the lightray included all the energy of the > original rock _plus_ the energy gained during the fall. So, the > final rock weighs more than the original rock. OOPS -- First law > violation -- we've just extracted energy from a conservative field. > > To fix this, we must assume the light was redshifted during its > trip up the ladder. > > To make the gravitational redshift work with the principle of > relativity (which says, basically, physical laws are the same > everywhere) we find that time must run more slowly for Poincare, > sitting on the floor. Einstein, standing on a ladder, has a clock > which ticks faster, so Poincare's light beam _looks_ redshifted to > Einstein. > > Let me reiterate: The problem was the difference in _potential_ > energy, which had to be compensated for _somehow_. > > Now, let's go down, down, to the very center of the Earth, and > carve a spherical chamber out of the rock. Inside a hollow planet, > there's NO APPARENT GRAVITY, as we all know, Edgar Rice Burroughs' > book "Pellucidar" aside. Now, drill a skinny hole all the way from > the surface of the earth to the chamber in the center of the > earth. Put an astronaut carrying a watch into the chamber down > inside, and put another one on the surface of the Earth. Whose > clock runs faster? The one on the surface is experiencing 1G of > acceleration, the one inside is experiencing zero g. > > To answer this, let the one on the surface drop a rock down the > hole. It gains energy. At the bottom of the hole, turn the rock, > and the energy it gained during the fall, into a light ray, and > send it back to the surface. It _must_ be redshifted, else we'd > have another first-law violation. And the redshift means the > clocks down inside must run _slower_. > > The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational > potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. I think this is not the only possible explanation. An alternative explanation is the red shift is due to the effect of gravity on the photon. Gravitons exchange momentum with photons, but not virtual photons. If this were not true black holes would not exist. In the case of a spherical shell object with a hole in it, I think the red shift would occur at the surface as light goes through the hole. It sounds like you are attributing a "real" effect to static gravitational potential that should be matched by an equivalent "real" effect from a static electromagnetic potential A. No such effect exists to my knowledge. AFAIK, The only effects that manifest as real are the result of changes in A, i.e in @a/@t. > > > > >> One dimensionally speaking, anything which is a >> function of the gravitational potential is a function of the >> gravitational field plus an arbitrary constant of integration. > > Again, I can construct a situation where the potential increases > while the field strength is constant or even drops. > > Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a > uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would > have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from the hole to the center. I think any object held in that chamber would experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, not to the gravitational potential. If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. > > >> No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of >> gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field >> differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any >> point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated >> and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) >> I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight >> rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it >> doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as >> it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. > > You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. I didn't mention synchronization. > You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, > you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out > of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for differences when clocks are brought back together. If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. Gravimagnetics, given the presence of the significant ambient gravimagentic field, should enhance the time difference on the *airplane* clocks. In other words it agrees qualitatively with the time differences, but may be too small to make any difference. It does mean the two east-west opposed orbit satellites would have their orbital parameters affected, thus their velocities, and thus their clocks. It is interesting that polar satellites should veer left going over the North pole and right going over the South pole, from the point of view of a person in the satellite oriented feet down and facing the direction of motion. Satellites going west-to-east should experience a lower g value than those going east-to-west, and the higher the velocity the lower the g value. This means the g value at the surface should be, due to gravimagnetism, slightly less at the equator than at the pole, and should cycle in value over a 24 hour period, due to the earth's axis not aligning with the ambient gravimagnetic field. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 06:50:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NEK8Do003996; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:21:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NECpVg032436; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:12:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:12:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:12:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1Ybwf.A.p6H.hRO1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just a couple brief comments. Horace Heffner wrote: >>> On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> >>>> Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't >>>> cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a >>>> result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of >>>> the centripetal force. >>> [HH] >>> This can not be consistent with relativity, >> >> [SAL] >> But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. > > [HH] > I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into relativity. The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built in, too. [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional explanation of the retardation comments] >> >> The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on >> whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has >> been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the >> experiments which have been done. > > > Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false assumption. No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. The effects are identical. You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the concept of observable properties of external things being affected by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a consequence of that. [ ... ] > Agreed - but only if you agree that clocks involving mass actually > change due to velocity alone. In other words, if m = m0*gamma is > purely due to appearances, i.e. due to retardation, then the only > effect left to cause a time difference upon rejoining the clocks is > acceleration. I don't think it is generally accepted an more that > m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. Whether an effect is "real" or not is so slippery that I don't think there's any definitive answer. IMHO the Sagnac effect proves that time dilation is "real". In the opinion of lots of other people it does not. If you spin a rigid disk it will crack due to Fitzgerald contraction. I think that proves the contraction is "real". Many other people think it does not. The trouble with m0*gamma is it's the total energy of the object, and that's frame-dependent. Your point of view determines how big it is. But does that mean it isn't "real"? I don't think so -- that's like saying kinetic energy isn't "real" because it's frame dependent. >> What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When YOU >> accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which you are >> accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. > > > Irrelevant. Who cares how the clocks appear during the journey. I > only care what happens when they come back together in the same > location in the same reference frame. Then all retardation effects > have cancelled because there is no retardation remaining. Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? By using a powerful telescope, you can actually watch the other party's clock throughout the whole trip. By looking at the _size_ of the image, and the rate at which it's changing, you can see how fast the other party is moving (relative to you) and how far away the other party is. That picture-show which you can watch _MUST_ agree with the physical effects observed when you get home again and put the clocks next to each other. If you can explain how that happens you're probably as close to "understanding" this as you can get. The weird thing is that all the "effects of retardation" do _not_ cancel when you get home, and it's very hard to draw a line between what was "real" and what was an illusion. The weirdness you apparently see comes directly from the (assumed) fact that the light signal travels at C relative to _both_ the stationary and the moving parties. * * * In the "stationary" frame you can explain it all by using time dilation -- you can, with the help of extra (stationary) observers spaced out along the route, actually observe the traveler's clock running _slow_. (Just assume time dilation is real and you're done!) In the "moving" frame you've got a much bigger problem; just exactly when does the stationary clock run _fast_? The answer is: while you are accelerating. [ ... ] >> If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few >> microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll >> experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he >> accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll >> experience a lot of time skew. > > > OK, but then this implies the clock is mass related, and m=m0*gamma is > a real, not a retardation effect. Relativistic Doppler shift includes a term for gamma. The emitter's motion changes the apparent frequency, _and_ the emitter's different time base changes the apparent frequency, and the two effects must be combined to obtain the total observed effect. The "extra" mass of a moving body is (gama-1)*m0. At relativistic speeds that's where most of the body's energy is. If that's not "real", then most of the energy isn't "real", either. >> >> The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational >> potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. > > I think this is not the only possible explanation. An alternative > explanation is the red shift is due to the effect of gravity on the > photon. Gravitons exchange momentum with photons, but not virtual > photons. If this were not true black holes would not exist. In the > case of a spherical shell object with a hole in it, I think the red > shift would occur at the surface as light goes through the hole. That would make sense. The redshift "happens" in regions where the field is non-zero, of course, which is exactly where the photons would be interacting with it. If the field is the gradient of the potential, then the places where the field is strongest are also the places where the potential, and degree of redshift, are changing most rapidly. But I'm just talking about where and when you would "observe" a red-shift. The "observed" redshift is a function of the gravitational potential, but that's not the same as saying it's "caused" by it -- I should be more careful about how I say things... > > It sounds like you are attributing a "real" effect to static > gravitational potential that should be matched by an equivalent "real" > effect from a static electromagnetic potential A. No such effect > exists to my knowledge. AFAIK, The only effects that manifest as real > are the result of changes in A, i.e in @a/@t. It seems that way but it's not. In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally different kinds of "forces". Let's see if I can dredge this out of my memory.... The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in this case. More mundanely, charge is conserved; you drop a charged rock down the hole, at the bottom of the hole it still has the same charge as it had at the top of the hole. If you turn it into a beam of light you need to figure out what to do with the charge -- you can't just throw it away. Gravitational mass is apparently _not_ conserved, not the same way; in particular, when you drop the rock down the hole, it gains gravitational mass. Oh well I'm just babbling at this point I should drop this line of reasoning until and unless I look it up again... >> Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a >> uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have >> a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. > > > It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from the > hole to the center. If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with the field of an intact planet.) > I think any object held in that chamber would > experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its > location, not to the gravitational potential. I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? If that's what you're saying, I agree. Note again that since the field strength is the gradient of the potential, that's equivalent to saying the degree of redshift varies with the potential. > If what you were saying > were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a > big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower gravitional potential at the center of the universe. And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift associated with it, too. > > >> >> >>> No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of >>> gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field >>> differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any >>> point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated >>> and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) >>> I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod >>> approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't >>> seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes >>> behind the earth in the opposite direction. >> >> >> You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. > > > I didn't mention synchronization. > >> You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, you >> find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out of >> sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. > > > > Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I just > want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for differences > when clocks are brought back together. Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the fringe shift when you rotate it? Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and is constant. > If there is no velocity effect > which does this, then what remains except acceleration? Retardation is > out of the picture. > > Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the > effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the expected > values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to do this right, > and I just do not have the time right now. > > What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully analysed > using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires quantifying > the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the Earth? > Gravimagnetics, given > the presence of the significant ambient gravimagentic field, should > enhance the time difference on the *airplane* clocks. In other words it > agrees qualitatively with the time differences, but may be too small to > make any difference. It does mean the two east-west opposed orbit > satellites would have their orbital parameters affected, thus their > velocities, and thus their clocks. > > It is interesting that polar satellites should veer left going over the > North pole and right going over the South pole, from the point of view > of a person in the satellite oriented feet down and facing the > direction of motion. Satellites going west-to-east should experience a > lower g value than those going east-to-west, and the higher the > velocity the lower the g value. This means the g value at the surface > should be, due to gravimagnetism, slightly less at the equator than at > the pole, and should cycle in value over a 24 hour period, due to the > earth's axis not aligning with the ambient gravimagnetic field. Hmmm ... Interesting. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 06:57:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NEvX4H027798; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:57:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NEvVm6027778; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:44:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6yWKOD.A.-xG.a7O1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Horace Heffner wrote: >> I don't think it is generally accepted an more that >> m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. I've also read that "m0*gamma" isn't "real" mass. I've also read that time dilation is not "real". Both statements, as written, are nonsensicle -- they are both meaningless. To make them sensible statements you first must define "real". Can you do that? If you can, then you'll also be able to say definitively whether either of those effects is "real". But if you can't define "real" then any question about whether something is "real" is meaningless. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 10:21:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NHeLq8003933; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:43:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NHChG5023630; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:12:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:12:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:10:04 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Horace Heffner wrote: > >>> I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma >>> is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. > > I've also read that "m0*gamma" isn't "real" mass. I've also read > that time dilation is not "real". Both statements, as written, are > nonsensicle -- they are both meaningless. > > To make them sensible statements you first must define "real". > > Can you do that? > > If you can, then you'll also be able to say definitively whether > either of those effects is "real". > > But if you can't define "real" then any question about whether > something is "real" is meaningless. > Effects which are "real" are effects which can not be fully accounted for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought back together are therefore real. Any change in appearance, and that includes locally observed forces as well as images, that is brought back into balance upon return to the initial condition, is due to retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 10:48:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NIk1iw007068; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:46:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NIjtAo006989; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:45:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:45:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ACipfuzHpMLPe0iNAtp/veUa4ztY+z+3SOyiCn/+r+vxTo/TShsq7eUMgevBX8AHs8jDzhl3vnEUsM/m3pzznfWxr2jG8X8RHT/h+0bU9efL3/08LzZL4+3DDU6iprWyJMZnQztpfmdJcTJqEZrJs7cPjdFblL8hiAtjlzIb9sU= ; Message-ID: <20060123181905.43427.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:19:05 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having loads of fun here Horace, your gedanken experiment involving the dropped rock neglects the fact that light carries momentum. In order for the rock to be turned into light ttraveling the opposite direction, a force must be applied to reverse its momentum. Equally, Einstein at the top of the ladder must apply a force when he catches the light to stop it and turn it into a stationary rock. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 12:18:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NK0D5R016157; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:18:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NJqKBh011802; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:52:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D53439.3070105@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:53:29 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060123181905.43427.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060123181905.43427.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6mjFQ.A.I4C.xPT1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: > Having loads of fun here > > of the previuos messages, so no quote possible> > > Horace, your gedanken experiment involving the dropped > rock neglects the fact that light carries momentum. > In order for the rock to be turned into light > ttraveling the opposite direction, a force must be > applied to reverse its momentum. Equally, Einstein at > the top of the ladder must apply a force when he > catches the light to stop it and turn it into a > stationary rock. Actually it was my gedanken, or rather my quote of Einstein's gedanken experiment. But you're right, force is necessary to change the momentum of the rock/photon. But we can deal with the momentum issue. The rock can exchange momentum with the person who catches it _without_ exchanging more than a negligible amount of energy, and it's the total energy we were concerned with. Just make the planet on which the person who catches it is sitting sufficiently massive, so that the planet's motion, and by extension the motion of the person, is negligible. We see this effect all the time in real life. Bounce a ball off a hard, solid wall. The ball's momentum reverses, which implies the wall gained momentum equal to twice what the ball had to start with, but if it's a good hard rubber ball and the wall is good and solid, the ball loses almost none of its energy. The wall gains momentum but (almost) no energy. A massive mirror, for another example, will flip the momentum vector of a beam of light very nicely while absorbing essentially none of the energy. The reason is that "net impulse" -- transfer of momentum -- depends only on the duration of the applied force, while "work" -- energy transfer -- depends on the force and the distance the body it acts on moves during the application of the force. If the body is massive and hence doesn't move more than a miniscule amount during application of the force, only a negligible amount of energy will be transfered. Finally, if you throw a _sticky_ ball at a wall, and it sticks but doesn't bounce off, _and_ if the wall is good and solid (and massive), you find that the wall gains momentum equal to what the ball had, _but_ it still gains almost no kinetic energy. Instead, the ball's kinetic energy (almost) all turns into heat. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 12:18:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NK0D5T016157; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:18:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NJwX9p015061; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:58:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:58:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D526EE.6080309@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:56:46 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> >>> Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> >>>> I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is >>>> a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. >> >> >> I've also read that "m0*gamma" isn't "real" mass. I've also read >> that time dilation is not "real". Both statements, as written, are >> nonsensicle -- they are both meaningless. >> >> To make them sensible statements you first must define "real". >> >> Can you do that? >> >> If you can, then you'll also be able to say definitively whether >> either of those effects is "real". >> >> But if you can't define "real" then any question about whether >> something is "real" is meaningless. >> > > Effects which are "real" are effects which can not be fully accounted > for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought > back together are therefore real. Any change in appearance, and that > includes locally observed forces as well as images, that is brought > back into balance upon return to the initial condition, is due to > retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real > effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do > not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Sounds good to me. (And I bet it's a lot clearer than the notion of what is "real" which was held by the authors who casually dismissed relativistic mass increase as "unreal"...) Time dilation is clearly real, then. I send a clock out to Pluto and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is slow. I do it again, and it's slower. Mass increase -- m ==> m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might disagree. I accelerate a clock to gamma=10, and let it collide with a clock which is "stationary". The energy given up by the traveling clock is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a very real "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far larger than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at the speed at which it was traveling. I put a centrifuge into a (closed!!) box, and start it going. As it spins up I weigh it. It gets heavier, which again involves local measurement of a force. Once again, m ==> m0*gamma seems to me to be quite "real". Length contraction is far more dubious. As far as I know there is no way to observe it which doesn't involve making "simultaneous" measurements at separate locations which opens us up to all kinds of problems, though the "cracking spinning disk" experiment still bothers me. Finally, just for fun, I put a resistor into a centrifuge, and spin it up, and measure its resistance using a stationary meter....... WTF?? > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 12:31:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NJsh1Y013022; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:54:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NJsdW8012963; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:54:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:54:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060123181905.43427.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060123181905.43427.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:51:58 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:19 AM, Merlyn wrote: > Having loads of fun here > > of the previuos messages, so no quote possible> > > Horace, your gedanken experiment involving the dropped > rock neglects the fact that light carries momentum. > In order for the rock to be turned into light > ttraveling the opposite direction, a force must be > applied to reverse its momentum. Equally, Einstein at > the top of the ladder must apply a force when he > catches the light to stop it and turn it into a > stationary rock. That was not my gedanken. It was Keith's. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 12:32:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NJlJUJ008962; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:47:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NJlHP2008943; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:47:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:47:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:45:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus In-reply-to: <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_09YCC.A.rLC.FLT1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The period of a pendulum clock is proportional to the square root of the length of the pendulum arm. The length of the pendulum arm will expand and contract with air temperature and alter the period accordingly. Does this mean that air temperature _really_ dilates _time_? I would say it means that air temperature really dilates the period of pendulum clocks which have been designed and built without due regard for the affects of temperature. Harry Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Horace Heffner wrote: > >>> I don't think it is generally accepted an more that >>> m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. > > I've also read that "m0*gamma" isn't "real" mass. I've also read that > time dilation is not "real". Both statements, as written, are > nonsensicle -- they are both meaningless. > > To make them sensible statements you first must define "real". > > Can you do that? > > If you can, then you'll also be able to say definitively whether either > of those effects is "real". > > But if you can't define "real" then any question about whether something > is "real" is meaningless. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 12:33:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0NJUR88031542; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:33:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NJ9u24020308; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:09:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:09:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4D71CF0D-7B04-45F3-B6A6-8374BDD372C4@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Dufour et al and the anode glow Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:07:19 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some brief comments regarding the Dufour et al article at: Of interest on page 4 is Reference 11 to an article by Dufour on the resonance he proposed (and called Hydrex) between electrons and protons that occurs at energies of 5 to 7 eV under strong attractive potential at fm distances. The problem with the concept is the probability of formation of the resonance is small. The highly structured environment as well as the high sustained field of the anode blue-green glow may provide increased and sustained opportunity for such resonances to form, especially with heavier nuclei. Lateral vibration of nuclei in the strong longitudinal electrostatic field of the interphase provide increased electron probability densities in the nucleus. Also notable is the fact the Electron Induced Nuclear Reactions (EINR) model was dismissed (on page 4 top) on the basis of conservation of energy (COE). However, COE in the form of signatures is the very experimental result at hand, and thus not a valid reason to dismiss anything. If energy can be borrowed from the vacuum it can be returned. If tunneling electron catalyzed fusion occurs, the resulting nucleus has returned much of the energy to the vacuum. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 16:15:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O0AkNI012658; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:15:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0NMC6XV014610; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:12:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:12:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060123184852205.3230BB80008D@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060123184853.00a19d24@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:48:53 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:28 am 23/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. You can't >> synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. > >Clock synchronization is only impossible with "dumb" clocks. "Intelligent" >clocks could be designed and programmed to modulate their own clock rate to >control for the effects of motion. > >Harry Good point. Grimer > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 18:55:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O2oIEH031150; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:55:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O1liZa030768; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:47:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:47:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:55:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey All, Horace writes: >That was not my gedanken. It was Keith's. Woah, that's news to me. I do real experiments, not gedanken ones (grin). A Horace hiatus indeed. Einstein throwing rocks at Poincare who turns them into energy? That's Steves department. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 22:59:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O6wkDk008819; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:58:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O6wgV8008778; Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:56:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Is relativistic mass real? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_yVHAYoPJQQKkEKhOaWb/Xw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <9bfWhD.A.EJC.iAd1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_yVHAYoPJQQKkEKhOaWb/Xw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Is relativistic mass real? An article published in the June 1989 of Physics Today addresses that question. See http://www.physicstoday.org/archives.html The Concept of Mass In the modern language of relativity theory there is only one mass, the Newtonian mass m, which does not vary with velocity; hence the famous formula E =3D mc2 has to be taken with a large grain of salt. =8B Lev B. Okun Subscription not required for download. Harry --Boundary_(ID_yVHAYoPJQQKkEKhOaWb/Xw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Is relativistic mass real?
Is relativistic mass real?
An article published in the June 1989 of Physics Today
addresses that question.

See
http://www.physicstoday.org/archives.html

The Concept of Mass

In the modern language of relativity theory there is only one m= ass, the
Newtonian mass m, which does not vary with velocity; hence the famous
formula E =3D mc2 has to be taken with a large grain of salt. =8B Lev B. Okun

Subscription not required for download.

Harry --Boundary_(ID_yVHAYoPJQQKkEKhOaWb/Xw)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 00:46:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O8jQuQ030603; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:45:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O8jNnU030582; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:45:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:45:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <308E4566-CE3B-4120-82C8-62CD050E67A4@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:55:51 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Just a couple brief comments. > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >>>> On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>>> >>>>> Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified >>>>> (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge >>>>> slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, >>>>> not as a result of the centripetal force. >>>> [HH] >>>> This can not be consistent with relativity, >>> >>> [SAL] >>> But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. >> [HH] >> I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into >> relativity. > > The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of > relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can > change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the > results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built > in, too. > > [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional > explanation of the retardation comments] > >>> >>> The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on >>> whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That >>> has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits >>> of the experiments which have been done. >> Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false >> assumption. > > No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are > apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the > local intensity of the gravitational _field_. From a QM point of view this is utter nonsense. Field potential is merely a calculation device. > > When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are > apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent > to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. > The effects are identical. In the case of observing the mass in a centrifuge I have no acceleration. > > You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the > concept of observable properties of external things being affected > by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a > consequence of that. Yes, you can - by looking for cumulative changes to closed systems. > > Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? Not when they finally are side by side, and that is the main issue. > > In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally > different kinds of "forces". If true, then I think this aspect of relativity is utterly a misrepresentation of reality. > Let's see if I can dredge this out of my memory.... > > The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- > a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/ > dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and > I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in > this case. > > More mundanely, charge is conserved; I don't think so. Conservation of charge is an assumption, and ultimately not a useful one. Certainly the appearance of charge can change due to retardation effects on virtual photons. Interestingly, gravity has no effect on virtual photons, yet affects photons. It remains to be shown, but I think it is obviously true that the relations are mutual, messengers (gravitons, virtual photons) do not interact. Gravitons interact with photons and vice versa. Virtual photons interact with graviphotons. Photons and graviphotons should thus also interact. This opens a wide range of research possibilities. Since the ZPF is made of virtual photons, and thus there exists an analogous graviton zero point field, interfacing with these fields for momentum exchange, as well as information exchange, can be useful. The assumptions of relativity, if they are valid and consistent, must also apply to Coulomb charge, and the interactions of Coulomb and gravitational charge (mass). Relating the two forces merely requires including the factor i, the square root of minus one, in the mass units. This is laid out in: It is the interaction of the two forces that is then really complex. > you drop a charged rock down the hole, at the bottom of the hole it > still has the same charge as it had at the top of the hole. In order to maintain field isomorphism the hole you are talking about here must be a Coulomb hole, not a gravitational hole. > If you turn it into a beam of light you need to figure out what to > do with the charge -- you can't just throw it away. Gravitational > mass is apparently _not_ conserved, not the same way; in > particular, when you drop the rock down the hole, it gains > gravitational mass. And thus more muddled thinking (not yours) that prevents bringing together the quantum and relativistic views. > > Oh well I'm just babbling at this point I should drop this line of > reasoning until and unless I look it up again... > > >>> Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a >>> uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would >>> have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. >> It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from >> the hole to the center. > > If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. > (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate > sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with > the field of an intact planet.) > >> I think any object held in that chamber would experience a >> gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, >> not to the gravitational potential. > > I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it > crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in > the chamber, right? Since the amount of red shift is a function of g, the change in red shift is a function of the change in g as movement occurs. > > If that's what you're saying, I agree. I'm not sure we even agree on the g field in the bubble being uniform. As you move across the bubble you become "outside" a larger and larger sphere of material. > Note again that since the field strength is the gradient of the > potential, that's equivalent to saying the degree of redshift > varies with the potential. I'm not sure we are using the same terminology. I'm looking at red shift as the difference between how a photon, or the energy of an atomically emitted photon, is observed in a zero gravity situation vs in the presence of a gravitational field. > > >> If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of >> the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively >> red shifted, instead of vice versa. > > Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, > pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower > gravitional potential at the center of the universe. > > And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift > associated with it, too. > >>> >>> >>>> No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of >>>> gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational >>>> field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference >>>> at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is >>>> violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) >>>> I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight >>>> rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it >>>> doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance >>>> as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. >>> >>> >>> You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. >> I didn't mention synchronization. >>> You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you >>> try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks >>> are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the >>> hiccup. >> Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I >> just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for >> differences when clocks are brought back together. > > Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the > fringe shift when you rotate it? A change in distance travelled. > > Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and > is constant. > >> If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what >> remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. >> Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the >> effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the >> expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to >> do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. >> What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully >> analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires >> quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. > > But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the > Earth? More to come on that. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 01:11:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O90EMi004817; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:01:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O8jvTb030797; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:45:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:45:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D2AF1A0-2809-43BC-81EC-2A45EF145D70@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:11:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Just a couple brief comments. > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >>>> On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>>> >>>>> Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified >>>>> (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge >>>>> slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, >>>>> not as a result of the centripetal force. >>>> [HH] >>>> This can not be consistent with relativity, >>> >>> [SAL] >>> But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. >> [HH] >> I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into >> relativity. > > The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of > relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can > change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the > results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built > in, too. > > [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional > explanation of the retardation comments] > >>> >>> The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on >>> whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That >>> has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits >>> of the experiments which have been done. >> Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false >> assumption. > > No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are > apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the > local intensity of the gravitational _field_. > > When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are > apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent > to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. > The effects are identical. > > You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the > concept of observable properties of external things being affected > by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a > consequence of that. > > [ ... ] >> Agreed - but only if you agree that clocks involving mass >> actually change due to velocity alone. In other words, if m = >> m0*gamma is purely due to appearances, i.e. due to retardation, >> then the only effect left to cause a time difference upon >> rejoining the clocks is acceleration. I don't think it is >> generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I >> definitely read that in some text. > > Whether an effect is "real" or not is so slippery that I don't > think there's any definitive answer. > > IMHO the Sagnac effect proves that time dilation is "real". In the > opinion of lots of other people it does not. If you spin a rigid > disk it will crack due to Fitzgerald contraction. I think that > proves the contraction is "real". Many other people think it does > not. > > The trouble with m0*gamma is it's the total energy of the object, > and that's frame-dependent. Your point of view determines how big > it is. But does that mean it isn't "real"? I don't think so -- > that's like saying kinetic energy isn't "real" because it's frame > dependent. > > >>> What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When >>> YOU accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which >>> you are accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. >> Irrelevant. Who cares how the clocks appear during the journey. >> I only care what happens when they come back together in the >> same location in the same reference frame. Then all retardation >> effects have cancelled because there is no retardation remaining. > > Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? > > By using a powerful telescope, you can actually watch the other > party's clock throughout the whole trip. By looking at the _size_ > of the image, and the rate at which it's changing, you can see how > fast the other party is moving (relative to you) and how far away > the other party is. That picture-show which you can watch _MUST_ > agree with the physical effects observed when you get home again > and put the clocks next to each other. If you can explain how that > happens you're probably as close to "understanding" this as you can > get. > > The weird thing is that all the "effects of retardation" do _not_ > cancel when you get home, and it's very hard to draw a line between > what was "real" and what was an illusion. > > The weirdness you apparently see comes directly from the (assumed) > fact that the light signal travels at C relative to _both_ the > stationary and the moving parties. > > * * * > > In the "stationary" frame you can explain it all by using time > dilation -- you can, with the help of extra (stationary) observers > spaced out along the route, actually observe the traveler's clock > running _slow_. (Just assume time dilation is real and you're done!) > > In the "moving" frame you've got a much bigger problem; just > exactly when does the stationary clock run _fast_? The answer is: > while you are accelerating. > > [ ... ] >>> If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few >>> microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll >>> experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he >>> accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll >>> experience a lot of time skew. >> OK, but then this implies the clock is mass related, and >> m=m0*gamma is a real, not a retardation effect. > > Relativistic Doppler shift includes a term for gamma. The > emitter's motion changes the apparent frequency, _and_ the > emitter's different time base changes the apparent frequency, and > the two effects must be combined to obtain the total observed effect. > > The "extra" mass of a moving body is (gama-1)*m0. At relativistic > speeds that's where most of the body's energy is. If that's not > "real", then most of the energy isn't "real", either. > >>> >>> The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational >>> potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. >> I think this is not the only possible explanation. An >> alternative explanation is the red shift is due to the effect of >> gravity on the photon. Gravitons exchange momentum with photons, >> but not virtual photons. If this were not true black holes would >> not exist. In the case of a spherical shell object with a hole >> in it, I think the red shift would occur at the surface as light >> goes through the hole. > > That would make sense. The redshift "happens" in regions where the > field is non-zero, of course, which is exactly where the photons > would be interacting with it. > > If the field is the gradient of the potential, then the places > where the field is strongest are also the places where the > potential, and degree of redshift, are changing most rapidly. > > But I'm just talking about where and when you would "observe" a red- > shift. The "observed" redshift is a function of the gravitational > potential, but that's not the same as saying it's "caused" by it -- > I should be more careful about how I say things... > >> It sounds like you are attributing a "real" effect to static >> gravitational potential that should be matched by an equivalent >> "real" effect from a static electromagnetic potential A. No such >> effect exists to my knowledge. AFAIK, The only effects that >> manifest as real are the result of changes in A, i.e in @a/@t. > > It seems that way but it's not. > > In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally > different kinds of "forces". Let's see if I can dredge this out of > my memory.... > > The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- > a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/ > dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and > I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in > this case. > > More mundanely, charge is conserved; you drop a charged rock down > the hole, at the bottom of the hole it still has the same charge as > it had at the top of the hole. If you turn it into a beam of light > you need to figure out what to do with the charge -- you can't just > throw it away. Gravitational mass is apparently _not_ conserved, > not the same way; in particular, when you drop the rock down the > hole, it gains gravitational mass. > > Oh well I'm just babbling at this point I should drop this line of > reasoning until and unless I look it up again... > > >>> Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a >>> uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would >>> have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. >> It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from >> the hole to the center. > > If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. > (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate > sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with > the field of an intact planet.) > >> I think any object held in that chamber would experience a >> gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, >> not to the gravitational potential. > > I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it > crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in > the chamber, right? > > If that's what you're saying, I agree. Note again that since the > field strength is the gradient of the potential, that's equivalent > to saying the degree of redshift varies with the potential. > > >> If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of >> the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively >> red shifted, instead of vice versa. > > Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, > pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower > gravitional potential at the center of the universe. > > And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift > associated with it, too. > >>> >>> >>>> No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of >>>> gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational >>>> field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference >>>> at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is >>>> violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) >>>> I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight >>>> rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it >>>> doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance >>>> as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. >>> >>> >>> You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. >> I didn't mention synchronization. >>> You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you >>> try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks >>> are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the >>> hiccup. >> Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I >> just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for >> differences when clocks are brought back together. > > Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the > fringe shift when you rotate it? > > Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and > is constant. > >> If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what >> remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. >> Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the >> effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the >> expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to >> do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. >> What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully >> analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires >> quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. > > But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the > Earth? > > >> Gravimagnetics, given the presence of the significant ambient >> gravimagentic field, should enhance the time difference on the >> *airplane* clocks. In other words it agrees qualitatively with >> the time differences, but may be too small to make any >> difference. It does mean the two east-west opposed orbit >> satellites would have their orbital parameters affected, thus >> their velocities, and thus their clocks. >> It is interesting that polar satellites should veer left going >> over the North pole and right going over the South pole, from the >> point of view of a person in the satellite oriented feet down and >> facing the direction of motion. Satellites going west-to-east >> should experience a lower g value than those going east-to-west, >> and the higher the velocity the lower the g value. This means >> the g value at the surface should be, due to gravimagnetism, >> slightly less at the equator than at the pole, and should cycle >> in value over a 24 hour period, due to the earth's axis not >> aligning with the ambient gravimagnetic field. > > Hmmm ... Interesting. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 01:42:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0O9d7ar024012; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:39:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0O9d1te023939; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:39:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:39:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D526EE.6080309@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D4EBC3.7070304@pobox.com> <43D526EE.6080309@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <033771FC-C9B7-4E19-AE54-BA90AFF65896@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:12:32 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Time dilation is clearly real, then. I send a clock out to Pluto > and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is > slow. I do it again, and it's slower. Well the time difference is the result of a real effect. hat effect is not necessarily time dilation, because time dilation (observed time differences) is at least in part due to retardation. > > Mass increase -- m ==> m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might > disagree. Yes, it seems that way to me. This effect can explain at least a portion of the "real" nature of the final time difference for the twins - depending on what kind of clock is used. If mass is used in the clock, then certainly real time differences can be expected. I am not sure there will be a real difference if the clocks used consist only of photons bouncing between mirrors. Which then brings up the "reality" of the Fitzgerald contraction. Is length contraction real? Certainly some of it is not real, because it is due at least in part to retardation. > I accelerate a clock to gamma=10, and let it collide with a clock > which is "stationary". The energy given up by the traveling clock > is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a very real > "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far larger > than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at > the speed at which it was traveling. > > I put a centrifuge into a (closed!!) box, and start it going. As > it spins up I weigh it. It gets heavier, which again involves > local measurement of a force. Once again, m ==> m0*gamma seems to > me to be quite "real". > > Length contraction is far more dubious. As far as I know there is > no way to observe it which doesn't involve making "simultaneous" > measurements at separate locations which opens us up to all kinds > of problems, though the "cracking spinning disk" experiment still > bothers me. I wonder if it is possible to make an accurate clock which doesn't depend on mass? > > Finally, just for fun, I put a resistor into a centrifuge, and spin > it up, and measure its resistance using a stationary meter....... > WTF?? Nothing like trying to iron out experimental artifacts! 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 02:10:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OAA8VR007384; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:10:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OA4oq3005043; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:04:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:04:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:04:56 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: the Patterson Cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I heard a man interviewed about on C to C AM. He commented that there was evidence of O V energy production and that it was being suppressed. He went on to mention the Patterson Cell, which had produced heat equal to 1 to 1.5 KW. I told him that AFAIK, the cell produced from 1000 - 1400 times the input energy, but the input energy was in milliwatts. The heat after death is an interesting phenomena. I told him that while LENR's and BLP produce measurable energy, there is no alternative energy source which is commercially feasible at this time. The various LENR technologies produce at best 130% of input power, but the input energy is electrical. He sent me the following URL, in which the late Eugene Mallove is interviewed. http://www.evworld.com/archives/interviews2/mallove1.html AFAIK, the amount of money that the government spent on hot fusion is $155 billion. BLP has yet to produce any useable energy. I'm sure that Eugene would been disappointed at their loosing their patent, but it's par for the course. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 05:23:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ODGqUR030093; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:16:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ODGowG030059; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:16:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:16:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4EE19280-6364-4D3A-93A8-7359A302144F@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:13:04 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I accidentally the the send button on a lot of unchanged stuff. Sorry! Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 08:03:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OFvaVT019098; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:57:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OFvWSA019062; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:57:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:57:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D64499.5080207@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:15:37 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <308E4566-CE3B-4120-82C8-62CD050E67A4@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <308E4566-CE3B-4120-82C8-62CD050E67A4@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are >> apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local >> intensity of the gravitational _field_. > > > > From a QM point of view this is utter nonsense. Field potential is > merely a calculation device. Absolutely. I agree. It's not a "field" in relativity either, and the "gravitational potential" doesn't behave like a sensible "potential". It's just a convenient way to think of it, and it works pretty well in the low-curvature (Newtonian) limit. A "field" is something that can be represented as a mathematical tensor field and in GR, gravity certainly can't be. Einstein tried hard to make that work before he abandoned it, or so I've been led to believe. [regarding that spherical hole cut in a larger uniform sphere:] [SAL] >> I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it >> crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in >> the chamber, right? > [HH] > Since the amount of red shift is a function of g, the change in red > shift is a function of the change in g as movement occurs. > >> >> If that's what you're saying, I agree. > > [HH] > I'm not sure we even agree on the g field in the bubble being uniform. > As you move across the bubble you become "outside" a larger and larger > sphere of material. :-) Yes but you're outside a larger and larger "bubble", too. It's a very cute example; I ran across it here: http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/gr/grav_cavity.htm Unfortunately it looks like the article has suffered an editing error (or six!) since the last time I saw it. It's completely illegible, at least in my browser, and the main illustration's gotten roached. Darn. (The page author's been having a rough time of it lately, I'm afraid, and hasn't had a lot of energy to worry about the state of his website.) Luckily I had stashed a copy of the (undamaged) page, to which I just referred to refresh my weak memory of the proof. The way to work this one out is to look at the field from an "intact" sphere, and _subtract_ the field due to the sphere we cut out to make the chamber. By the principle of superposition this is legit in Newtonian gravitation (doesn't quite work in GR, of course). The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of density rho is F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center of the sphere to the point where we're finding the field. For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. For the small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be R2. (Note that they point from different origins, but that's OK, all we care about are the direction and length.) Then the net field anywhere inside the small (cut-out) sphere will be F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the vector from the center of the big sphere to the center of the small sphere. So the force is also a constant, proportional to the distance between the spheres' centers, pointing along the line which connects the small sphere's center to the big sphere's center. According to GR the exact field won't be _quite_ uniform, I'm sure. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 08:28:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OGARBj026467; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:27:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OFGl8W029704; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:16:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:16:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Physics Summaries & Other Topics Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:18:47 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c620f1$17dca0a0$5c5e10ac@eDentsply.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-N9F8D.A.AQH.cTk1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.bookrags.com/sciences/physics/ Interesting site for general reference... -john From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 09:08:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OGARBl026467; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:27:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OF0A7w020798; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:00:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:00:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=t/YheFy6J5/gBhkt5R6gND9paj25kWOkkimrLxgCpaZpkzeFDFpYpOIkAM6e/8Rs; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061224142427950@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Collecting Royalties Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:24:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401f1e4a88b23b24ba78e7868e6529c9fa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Does Microsoft do this electronically? http://www.accessible.com/amcnty/PA/Crawford/Craw09.htm 1885 Agriculture Article. "Plows possessing some of Wood’s improvements were manufactured in Birmingham, near Pittsburgh, and brought to this county in considerable numbers from 1824 to 1830, and probably some were made here prior to the last named date. About this time Wood’s agents, or the assignees of the patents, were traveling over the county collecting royalties from the farmers for using their patents. This continued to be a burden upon many in this county until 1848— 49, when Hon. John W. Farrelly, an eminent lawyer of Meadville, and Member of Congress from this district, succeeded in defeating a bill introduced in the House for the extension of Wood’s patents on the plow. The manufacturers of Birmingham, Penn., to show their appreciation of Mr. Farrelly’s efforts to relieve them of this load, made and sent to him, in 1849, a plow made entirely of metal, beautifully polished. This is said to have been the first complete iron plow manufactured in this country, and was on exhibition at the store of John McFarland in Meadville for several months." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Does Microsoft do this electronically?
 
http://www.accessible.com/amcnty/PA/Crawford/Craw09.htm        1885 Agriculture Article.
 
"Plows possessing some of Wood’s improvements were manufactured in Birmingham, near Pittsburgh, and brought to this county in considerable numbers from 1824 to 1830, and probably some were made here prior to the last named date. About this time Wood’s agents, or the assignees of the patents, were traveling over the county collecting royalties from the farmers for using their patents. This continued to be a burden upon many in this county until 1848— 49, when Hon. John W. Farrelly, an eminent lawyer of Meadville, and Member of Congress from this district, succeeded in defeating a bill introduced in the House for the extension of Wood’s patents on the plow. The manufacturers of Birmingham, Penn., to show their appreciation of Mr. Farrelly’s efforts to relieve them of this load, made and sent to him, in 1849, a plow made entirely of metal, beautifully polished. This is said to have been the first complete iron plow manufactured in this country, and was on exhibition at the store of John McFarland in Meadville for several months."
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 11:55:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OJeVPX008613; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:55:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OJFAFx027394; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:15:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex Subject: Re: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! In-Reply-To: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> Message-ID: References: <43CF9585.9070107@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > 3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. I *know* it's far more conductive than plastic in humid Boston weather, since I was using paper strips as conductors when driving the pop-bottle electrostatic motor with a VandeGraaff machine. Brown paper from paper bags worked better than bond. Speaking of pencils, I found that india ink has enough carbon that it behaves as Aquadag. For home-made VandeGraaff machines, one can make the conductive sphere electrode out of papier mache, then paint it with a couple of coats of india ink. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 12:39:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OJeVPb008613; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:55:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OHnl27015337; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:49:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:49:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=q+810NQ6AcQjChkdfO9x+oMnkwcuW25rl0O1tDn+ua9EALe4M5ULDLAEJncA7BkQMOSinN8YkRcub1L/CU+PdKOoqHIWgsgCi/IP9vLxMb0/1z9D1SF5xHiOy+qF8CofcXPD46qUjxT7AlhzR7u8Vg4GRpK7fO/ugMVgNphFy7c= ; Message-ID: <20060124174936.14034.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:49:36 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: RE: The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At least I wasn't the only one who got confused. BTW Keith, your reply-to header is screwy, and sends replies only to you, not thte entire list. --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Hey All, > > Horace writes: > >That was not my gedanken. It was Keith's. > > Woah, that's news to me. I do real experiments, > not gedanken ones (grin). A Horace hiatus indeed. > > Einstein throwing rocks at Poincare who turns > them into energy? That's Steves department. > > K. > > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 12:42:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OJeVPZ008613; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:55:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OJ0693019872; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:00:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:00:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060124174008783.BF38A1C00087@mwinf3103.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060124174010.0099b8fc@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:40:10 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:53 pm 23/01/2006 -0500, Stephen wrote: > > Actually it was my gedanken, or rather my quote of Einstein's gedanken > experiment. But you're right, force is necessary to change the > momentum of the rock/photon. > > But we can deal with the momentum issue. The rock can exchange > momentum with the person who catches it _without_ exchanging more than > a negligible amount of energy, and it's the total energy we were > concerned with. Just make the planet on which the person who catches > it is sitting sufficiently massive, so that the planet's motion, and > by extension the motion of the person, is negligible. > > We see this effect all the time in real life. Bounce a ball off a > hard, solid wall. The ball's momentum reverses, which implies the > wall gained momentum equal to twice what the ball had to start with, > but if it's a good hard rubber ball and the wall is good and solid, > the ball loses almost none of its energy. > The wall gains momentum but (almost) no energy. That raises an interesting point. If we reduce everything to strain energy, in other words if we recognised that stress is really only an alias for strain, and is measured from a false datum. i.e. it is applied stress not total stress {cf. PV^6 = a constant relation for water on Prof. Chaplin site) then we would realise that the positive energy (expansion) was in fact equal to the negative energy (compression). The only reason we need the concept of energy (and force) at all, is that we measure things from false origins. We have to find the true origins, the real boundaries (maxima, minima, points of inflection, etc.). Now I don't expect anyone who is psychologically committed to the scientific status quo to take these assertions seriously, raising as they do, enormous cognitive dissonance. However, I know I'm right, I know I can prove it to any open minded philosopher, and I am therefore boldly stating it here as a kind of claim stake at Sutter's Mill. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer ========================================================= Sir Brian had a battleaxe with great big knobs on. He went among the villagers and blipped them on the head. On Wednesday and on Saturday, Especially on the latter day, He called on all the cottages and this is what he said: "I am Sir Brian!" (Ting-ling!) "I am Sir Brian!" (Rat-tat!) "I am Sir Brian," "As bold as a lion!" "Take that, and that, and that!" ========================================================= From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 12:45:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OJeVPd008613; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:55:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OHj8YL012507; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:45:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:45:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AVgTrS6zvYCMUi9UPGnKzP72EDcBH3WRnP7HgpCtGCu9KLrZv7rCcoIpH0edq1TH8xxM9lHJTFaCPIqIhu/gbs1VHqRaMNe+JczcvyWlIoTyd6cCpWb/objR6olqgb3CGNXvHZiC90MajsykITr80LClgnIEDx7meetPz8SE2ZU= ; Message-ID: <20060124174450.43330.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:44:50 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43D53439.3070105@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Exactly! Te energy must go somewhere, and conventionally is converted into heat instead of mass. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > Merlyn wrote: > > Having loads of fun here > > > > parts > > of the previuos messages, so no quote possible> > > > > Horace, your gedanken experiment involving the > dropped > > rock neglects the fact that light carries > momentum. > > In order for the rock to be turned into light > > ttraveling the opposite direction, a force must be > > applied to reverse its momentum. Equally, Einstein > at > > the top of the ladder must apply a force when he > > catches the light to stop it and turn it into a > > stationary rock. > > Actually it was my gedanken, or rather my quote of > Einstein's gedanken > experiment. But you're right, force is necessary to > change the momentum > of the rock/photon. > > But we can deal with the momentum issue. The rock > can exchange momentum > with the person who catches it _without_ exchanging > more than a > negligible amount of energy, and it's the total > energy we were concerned > with. Just make the planet on which the person who > catches it is > sitting sufficiently massive, so that the planet's > motion, and by > extension the motion of the person, is negligible. > > We see this effect all the time in real life. > Bounce a ball off a hard, > solid wall. The ball's momentum reverses, which > implies the wall gained > momentum equal to twice what the ball had to start > with, but if it's a > good hard rubber ball and the wall is good and > solid, the ball loses > almost none of its energy. The wall gains momentum > but (almost) no energy. > > A massive mirror, for another example, will flip the > momentum vector of > a beam of light very nicely while absorbing > essentially none of the energy. > > The reason is that "net impulse" -- transfer of > momentum -- depends only > on the duration of the applied force, while "work" > -- energy transfer -- > depends on the force and the distance the body it > acts on moves during > the application of the force. If the body is > massive and hence doesn't > move more than a miniscule amount during application > of the force, only > a negligible amount of energy will be transfered. > > Finally, if you throw a _sticky_ ball at a wall, and > it sticks but > doesn't bounce off, _and_ if the wall is good and > solid (and massive), > you find that the wall gains momentum equal to what > the ball had, _but_ > it still gains almost no kinetic energy. Instead, > the ball's kinetic > energy (almost) all turns into heat. > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 13:12:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OL0GXF021692; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:12:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OKUAS2005061; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:30:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:30:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:27:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Are you familiar with the basic triangular lifter? It is made with wire, some aluminium foil and balsa wood. Would it be practical to make a triangular lifter using just paper, a pencil and/or india ink? e.g. On a long rectangular piece of paper a line drawn parallel to one edge would mimic the wire part. Shading the other half of the paper would mimic the foil part. Harry William Beaty wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> 3.5 volts works out to a resistance of about 27 gigohms. > > I *know* it's far more conductive than plastic in humid Boston weather, > since I was using paper strips as conductors when driving the pop-bottle > electrostatic motor with a VandeGraaff machine. Brown paper from paper > bags worked better than bond. > > Speaking of pencils, I found that india ink has enough carbon that it > behaves as Aquadag. For home-made VandeGraaff machines, one can make the > conductive sphere electrode out of papier mache, then paint it with a > couple of coats of india ink. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 13:12:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0OL0GXH021692; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:12:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0OKUHJr005191; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:30:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:30:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:31:57 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the centripetal force. Horace Heffner wrote: This can not be consistent with relativity, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. Horace Heffner wrote: I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into relativity. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built in, too. [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional explanation of the retardation comments] Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the experiments which have been done. Horace Heffner wrote: Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false assumption. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. The effects are identical. You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the concept of observable properties of external things being affected by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a consequence of that. Horace Heffner wrote: Agreed - but only if you agree that clocks involving mass actually change due to velocity alone. In other words, if m = m0*gamma is purely due to appearances, i.e. due to retardation, then the only effect left to cause a time difference upon rejoining the clocks is acceleration. I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Whether an effect is "real" or not is so slippery that I don't think there's any definitive answer. IMHO the Sagnac effect proves that time dilation is "real". In the opinion of lots of other people it does not. If you spin a rigid disk it will crack due to Fitzgerald contraction. I think that proves the contraction is "real". Many other people think it does not. The trouble with m0*gamma is it's the total energy of the object, and that's frame-dependent. Your point of view determines how big it is. But does that mean it isn't "real"? I don't think so -- that's like saying kinetic energy isn't "real" because it's frame dependent. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When YOU accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which you are accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. Horace Heffner wrote: Irrelevant. Who cares how the clocks appear during the journey. I only care what happens when they come back together in the same location in the same reference frame. Then all retardation effects have cancelled because there is no retardation remaining. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? By using a powerful telescope, you can actually watch the other party's clock throughout the whole trip. By looking at the _size_ of the image, and the rate at which it's changing, you can see how fast the other party is moving (relative to you) and how far away the other party is. That picture-show which you can watch _MUST_ agree with the physical effects observed when you get home again and put the clocks next to each other. If you can explain how that happens you're probably as close to "understanding" this as you can get. The weird thing is that all the "effects of retardation" do _not_ cancel when you get home, and it's very hard to draw a line between what was "real" and what was an illusion. The weirdness you apparently see comes directly from the (assumed) fact that the light signal travels at C relative to _both_ the stationary and the moving parties. * * * In the "stationary" frame you can explain it all by using time dilation -- you can, with the help of extra (stationary) observers spaced out along the route, actually observe the traveler's clock running _slow_. (Just assume time dilation is real and you're done!) In the "moving" frame you've got a much bigger problem; just exactly when does the stationary clock run _fast_? The answer is: while you are accelerating. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll experience a lot of time skew. Horace Heffner wrote: OK, but then this implies the clock is mass related, and m=m0*gamma is a real, not a retardation effect. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Relativistic Doppler shift includes a term for gamma. The emitter's motion changes the apparent frequency, _and_ the emitter's different time base changes the apparent frequency, and the two effects must be combined to obtain the total observed effect. The "extra" mass of a moving body is (gama-1)*m0. At relativistic speeds that's where most of the body's energy is. If that's not "real", then most of the energy isn't "real", either. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. Horace Heffner wrote: I think this is not the only possible explanation. An alternative explanation is the red shift is due to the effect of gravity on the photon. Gravitons exchange momentum with photons, but not virtual photons. If this were not true black holes would not exist. In the case of a spherical shell object with a hole in it, I think the red shift would occur at the surface as light goes through the hole. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: That would make sense. The redshift "happens" in regions where the field is non-zero, of course, which is exactly where the photons would be interacting with it. If the field is the gradient of the potential, then the places where the field is strongest are also the places where the potential, and degree of redshift, are changing most rapidly. But I'm just talking about where and when you would "observe" a red-shift. The "observed" redshift is a function of the gravitational potential, but that's not the same as saying it's "caused" by it -- I should be more careful about how I say things... Horace Heffner wrote: It sounds like you are attributing a "real" effect to static gravitational potential that should be matched by an equivalent "real" effect from a static electromagnetic potential A. No such effect exists to my knowledge. AFAIK, The only effects that manifest as real are the result of changes in A, i.e in @a/@t. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: It seems that way but it's not. In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally different kinds of "forces". Let's see if I can dredge this out of my memory.... The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in this case. More mundanely, charge is conserved; you drop a charged rock down the hole, at the bottom of the hole it still has the same charge as it had at the top of the hole. If you turn it into a beam of light you need to figure out what to do with the charge -- you can't just throw it away. Gravitational mass is apparently _not_ conserved, not the same way; in particular, when you drop the rock down the hole, it gains gravitational mass. Oh well I'm just babbling at this point I should drop this line of reasoning until and unless I look it up again... Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. Horace Heffner wrote: It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from the hole to the center. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with the field of an intact planet.) Horace Heffner wrote: I think any object held in that chamber would experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, not to the gravitational potential. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? If that's what you're saying, I agree. Note again that since the field strength is the gradient of the potential, that's equivalent to saying the degree of redshift varies with the potential. Horace Heffner wrote: If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower gravitional potential at the center of the universe. And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift associated with it, too. Horace Heffner wrote: No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the effects of acceleration this difference at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. Horace Heffner wrote: I didn't mention synchronization. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. Horace Heffner wrote: Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for differences when clocks are brought back together. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the fringe shift when you rotate it? Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and is constant. Horace Heffner wrote: If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the Earth? Horace Heffner wrote: Gravimagnetics, given the presence of the significant ambient gravimagentic field, should enhance the time difference on the *airplane* clocks. In other words it agrees qualitatively with the time differences, but may be too small to make any difference. It does mean the two east-west opposed orbit satellites would have their orbital parameters affected, thus their velocities, and thus their clocks. It is interesting that polar satellites should veer left going over the North pole and right going over the South pole, from the point of view of a person in the satellite oriented feet down and facing the direction of motion. Satellites going west-to-east should experience a lower g value than those going east-to-west, and the higher the velocity the lower the g value. This means the g value at the surface should be, due to gravimagnetism, slightly less at the equator than at the pole, and should cycle in value over a 24 hour period, due to the earth's axis not aligning with the ambient gravimagnetic field. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Hmmm ... Interesting. Horace Heffner wrote: I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I've also read that "m0*gamma" isn't "real" mass. I've also read that time dilation is not "real". Both statements, as written, are nonsensicle -- they are both meaningless. To make them sensible statements you first must define "real". Can you do that? If you can, then you'll also be able to say definitively whether either of those effects is "real". But if you can't define "real" then any question about whether something is "real" is meaningless. Horace Heffner wrote: Effects which are "real" are effects which can not be fully accounted for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought back together are therefore real. Any change in appearance, and that includes locally observed forces as well as images, that is brought back into balance upon return to the initial condition, is due to retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Merlyn wrote: Horace, your gedanken experiment involving the dropped rock neglects the fact that light carries momentum. In order for the rock to be turned into light ttraveling the opposite direction, a force must be applied to reverse its momentum. Equally, Einstein at the top of the ladder must apply a force when he catches the light to stop it and turn it into a stationary rock. Horace wrote: Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Sounds good to me. (And I bet it's a lot clearer than the notion of what is "real" which was held by the authors who casually dismissed relativistic mass increase as "unreal"...) Time dilation is clearly real, then. I send a clock out to Pluto and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is slow. I do it again, and it's slower. Mass increase -- m ==m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might disagree. I accelerate a clock to gamma=10, and let it collide with a clock which is "stationary". The energy given up by the traveling clock is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a very real "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far larger than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at the speed at which it was traveling. I put a centrifuge into a (closed!!) box, and start it going. As it spins up I weigh it. It gets heavier, which again involves local measurement of a force. Once again, m ==m0*gamma seems to me to be quite "real". Length contraction is far more dubious. As far as I know there is no way to observe it which doesn't involve making "simultaneous" measurements at separate locations which opens us up to all kinds of problems, though the "cracking spinning disk" experiment still bothers me. Finally, just for fun, I put a resistor into a centrifuge, and spin it up, and measure its resistance using a stationary meter....... WTF?? Harry Veeder wrote: The period of a pendulum clock is proportional to the square root of the length of the pendulum arm. The length of the pendulum arm will expand and contract with air temperature and alter the period accordingly. Does this mean that air temperature _really_ dilates _time_? I would say it means that air temperature really dilates the period of pendulum clocks which have been designed and built without due regard for the affects of temperature. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Actually it was my gedanken, or rather my quote of Einstein's gedanken experiment. But you're right, force is necessary to change the momentum of the rock/photon. But we can deal with the momentum issue. The rock can exchange momentum with the person who catches it _without_ exchanging more than a negligible amount of energy, and it's the total energy we were concerned with. Just make the planet on which the person who catches it is sitting sufficiently massive, so that the planet's motion, and by extension the motion of the person, is negligible. We see this effect all the time in real life. Bounce a ball off a hard, solid wall. The ball's momentum reverses, which implies the wall gained momentum equal to twice what the ball had to start with, but if it's a good hard rubber ball and the wall is good and solid, the ball loses almost none of its energy. The wall gains momentum but (almost) no energy. A massive mirror, for another example, will flip the momentum vector of a beam of light very nicely while absorbing essentially none of the energy. The reason is that "net impulse" -- transfer of momentum -- depends only on the duration of the applied force, while "work" -- energy transfer -- depends on the force and the distance the body it acts on moves during the application of the force. If the body is massive and hence doesn't move more than a miniscule amount during application of the force, only a negligible amount of energy will be transfered. Finally, if you throw a _sticky_ ball at a wall, and it sticks but doesn't bounce off, _and_ if the wall is good and solid (and massive), you find that the wall gains momentum equal to what the ball had, _but_ it still gains almost no kinetic energy. Instead, the ball's kinetic energy (almost) all turns into heat. Harry wrote: Is relativistic mass real? An article published in the June 1989 of Physics Today addresses that question. See http://www.physicstoday.org/archives.html The Concept of Mass In the modern language of relativity theory there is only one mass, the Newtonian mass m, which does not vary with velocity; hence the famous formula E =3D mc2 has to be taken with a large grain of salt. =8B Lev B. Okun Subscription not required for download. On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the centripetal force. Horace Heffner wrote: This can not be consistent with relativity, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. Horace Heffner wrote: I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into relativity. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built in, too. [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional explanation of the retardation comments] Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the experiments which have been done. Horace Heffner wrote: Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false assumption. On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. Horace Heffner wrote: >From a QM point of view this is utter nonsense. Field potential is merely a calculation device. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. The effects are identical. Horace Heffner wrote: In the case of observing the mass in a centrifuge I have no acceleration. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the concept of observable properties of external things being affected by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a consequence of that. Horace Heffner wrote: Yes, you can - by looking for cumulative changes to closed systems. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? Horace Heffner wrote: Not when they finally are side by side, and that is the main issue. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally different kinds of "forces". Horace Heffner wrote: If true, then I think this aspect of relativity is utterly a misrepresentation of reality. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Let's see if I can dredge this out of my memory.... The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/ dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in this case. More mundanely, charge is conserved; Horace Heffner wrote: I don't think so. Conservation of charge is an assumption, and ultimately not a useful one. Certainly the appearance of charge can change due to retardation effects on virtual photons. Interestingly, gravity has no effect on virtual photons, yet affects photons. It remains to be shown, but I think it is obviously true that the relations are mutual, messengers (gravitons, virtual photons) do not interact. Gravitons interact with photons and vice versa. Virtual photons interact with graviphotons. Photons and graviphotons should thus also interact. This opens a wide range of research possibilities. Since the ZPF is made of virtual photons, and thus there exists an analogous graviton zero point field, interfacing with these fields for momentum exchange, as well as information exchange, can be useful. The assumptions of relativity, if they are valid and consistent, must also apply to Coulomb charge, and the interactions of Coulomb and gravitational charge (mass). Relating the two forces merely requires including the factor i, the square root of minus one, in the mass units. This is laid out in: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:15:02 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060124174010.0099b8fc@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060124174010.0099b8fc@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But you left out a few verses. Grimer wrote: > > That raises an interesting point. If we reduce everything > to strain energy, in other words if we recognised that > stress is really only an alias for strain, and is measured > from a false datum. i.e. it is applied stress not total > stress {cf. PV^6 = a constant relation for water on Prof. > Chaplin site) then we would realise that the positive > energy (expansion) was in fact equal to the negative > energy (compression). > > The only reason we need the concept of energy (and force) > at all, is that we measure things from false origins. > We have to find the true origins, the real boundaries > (maxima, minima, points of inflection, etc.). > > Now I don't expect anyone who is psychologically committed > to the scientific status quo to take these assertions > seriously, raising as they do, enormous cognitive dissonance. > However, I know I'm right, I know I can prove it to any > open minded philosopher, and I am therefore boldly stating > it here as a kind of claim stake at Sutter's Mill. 8-) > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > ========================================================= > Sir Brian had a battleaxe with great big knobs on. > He went among the villagers and blipped them on the head. > On Wednesday and on Saturday, > Especially on the latter day, > He called on all the cottages and this is what he said: > > "I am Sir Brian!" (Ting-ling!) > "I am Sir Brian!" (Rat-tat!) > "I am Sir Brian," > "As bold as a lion!" > "Take that, and that, and that!" > ========================================================= ..... And eventually, it ends with .... Sir Brian woke one morning, and he couldn't find his battleaxe; He walked into the village in his second pair of boots. He had gone a hundred paces, when the street was full of faces, And the villagers were round him with ironical salutes "You are Sir Brian? Indeed! You are Sir Brian? Dear, dear! You are Sir Brian, as bold as a lion? Delighted to meet you here!" Sir Brian went a journey, and he found a lot of duckweed; The pulled him out and dried him, and they blipped him on the head. They took him by the breeches, and they hurled him into ditches, and they pushed him under waterfalls, and this is what they said: "You are Sir Brian -- don't laugh. You are Sir Brian -- don't cry. You are Sir Brian, as bold as a lion -- Sir Brian, the lion, goodbye!" Sir Brian struggled home again, and chopped up his battleaxe, Sir Brian took his fighting boots, and threw them in the fire. He is quite a different person now he hasn't got his spurs on, And he goes about the village as B. Botany, Esquire. "I am Sir Brian? Oh, no! I am Sir Brian? Who's he? I haven't got any title, I'm Botany -- Plain Mr. Botany (B)." ------------- And I can't help wondering, why "Botany"? It seems like an odd name. And why does the whole thing end with "Botany B", as though there's something significant about that name? The penal colony in Australia was Botany Bay, IIRC, and it may still have existed when that was written. Did Milne have some obscure connection in mind here, or what? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 17:42:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P0KL2V031124; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:27:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P02WBO021172; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:02:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:02:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D68E3A.403F559B@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:29:46 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xr" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, The following is taken from the most interesting exchange which has been going on these last few days. I will submit that exchange in two posts (to adhere to the 40K limit) after I send the below so that context can be established. Jack Smith --------------------------- Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field ... [Jack Smith writes: For me, the field concept is only a calculational convenience. I prefer to imagine transfer of forces by means of particles. Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) p. 217 "... relational mechanics predicts the appearance of a real gravitational centrifugal force exerted by the distant universe spinning around the bucket." p. 261 "We have derived the fact that all inertial forces of Newtonian mechanics, like the centrifugal force or Coriolis forces, are real forces ... This also explains the concavity in Newton's bucket as due to a relative rotation between the water and the distant universe ..." Maybe the distant stars are emitting particles (gravitons) which we experience as gravity.] Horace Heffner wrote: Gravitons interact with photons and vice versa. [Jack Smith writes: I like to picture gravitational red shift, if there really is such a thing, as the result of gravitons interacting with photons.] Horace Heffner wrote: I think any object held in that chamber would experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, not to the gravitational potential. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? Horace Heffner wrote: If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower gravitional potential at the center of the universe. And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift associated with it, too. [Jack Smith writes: Assuming there is a "center of the universe," then there could be "a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center." Le Sage postulated gravity by a push of particles and came up with design equations that are identical (I guess) to those of Newton. If there is a large body beneath my feet absorbing gravitons coming from that direction, I will experience a net force toward the body from the unshielded gravitons impacting me. The greater the net flux of gravitons, the greater the force of gravity that I will experience, and the greater the acceleration from this force -- g -- if I should start falling toward the center of the body. Again, I like to picture gravitational red shift as the result of gravitons interacting with photons.] Horace Heffner wrote: No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated, and GR disappears in a flash! Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. Horace Heffner wrote: >From a QM point of view this is utter nonsense. Field potential is merely a calculation device. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Absolutely. I agree. It's not a "field" in relativity either, and the "gravitational potential" doesn't behave like a sensible "potential". It's just a convenient way to think of it, and it works pretty well in the low-curvature (Newtonian) limit. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [regarding that spherical hole cut in a larger uniform sphere:] I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? Horace Heffner wrote: Since the amount of red shift is a function of g, the change in red shift is a function of the change in g as movement occurs. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: It's a very cute example. [... cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet ...] I ran across it here: http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/gr/grav_cavity.htm Unfortunately it looks like the article has suffered an editing error (or six!) since the last time I saw it. It's completely illegible, at least in my browser, and the main illustration's gotten roached. Luckily I had stashed a copy of the (undamaged) page, to which I just referred to refresh my weak memory of the proof. The way to work this one out is to look at the field from an "intact" sphere, and _subtract_ the field due to the sphere we cut out to make the chamber. By the principle of superposition this is legit in Newtonian gravitation (doesn't quite work in GR, of course). The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of density rho is F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center of the sphere to the point where we're finding the field. For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. For the small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be R2. (Note that they point from different origins, but that's OK, all we care about are the direction and length.) Then the net field anywhere inside the small (cut-out) sphere will be F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the vector from the center of the big sphere to the center of the small sphere. So the force is also a constant, proportional to the distance between the spheres' centers, pointing along the line which connects the small sphere's center to the big sphere's center. [Jack Smith writes: Actually, the idea that frequencies of matter change with time, not light wavelengths with distance, as advanced by Hoyle, Arp, Tomes, and others makes more sense to me than "gravitational red shift" or the "Doppler red shift of an expanding universe." But I'm not going to open that can of worms here. What I want to ask here is how does someone distinguish between the "gravitational red shift" and the "Doppler red shift"? Supposedly, conservation of energy requires that photon frequency change with the change in gravitational potential energy (i.e. the further out of a gravitational well the photon rises, the more energy it loses as it fights against the field, hence red shift). This in turn depends on distance from the center of gravity, and has nothing to do with the size of the object in question, only on its mass, and the change in distance to the center of that mass. Assuming the following is correct: If you know the Gravitational Potential, o* : o* = -GM/R^2 where G is the gravitational constant 6.67E-11, M is the mass of the "Star" and R is it's radius ... From this the change in local light speed c: c = c0(1 + o*/c^2) or since wavelength (lambda) equals c/f, f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), ... R in the formula is in fact the distance from the center of the body, and has nothing to do with its radius. This further implies that the red shift [of sunlight] "seen" by Jupiter is greater than that seen by Earth. So here is my question: Since f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), and R is the distance to a celestial object, how does one distinguish between the red shift due to the mass and distance of the celestial object -- the gravitational red shift -- and the Doppler red shift due to the velocity at which the object is supposedly moving away from the Earth?] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 17:42:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P0KL2X031124; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:27:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P01BN4020679; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:01:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:01:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D68EED.799CDC22@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:32:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh2" Resent-Message-ID: <5HRr-D.A.DDF.G_r1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. Horace Heffner wrote: It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from the hole to the center. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with the field of an intact planet.) Horace Heffner wrote: I think any object held in that chamber would experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, not to the gravitational potential. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? Horace Heffner wrote: Since the amount of red shift is a function of g, the change in red shift is a function of the change in g as movement occurs. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If that's what you're saying, I agree. Horace Heffner wrote: I'm not sure we even agree on the g field in the bubble being uniform. As you move across the bubble you become "outside" a larger and larger sphere of material. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Note again that since the field strength is the gradient of the potential, that's equivalent to saying the degree of redshift varies with the potential. Horace Heffner wrote: I'm not sure we are using the same terminology. I'm looking at red shift as the difference between how a photon, or the energy of an atomically emitted photon, is observed in a zero gravity situation vs in the presence of a gravitational field. Horace Heffner wrote: If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower gravitional potential at the center of the universe. And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift associated with it, too. Horace Heffner wrote: No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. Horace Heffner wrote: I didn't mention synchronization. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. Horace Heffner wrote: Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for differences when clocks are brought back together. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the fringe shift when you rotate it? Horace Heffner wrote: A change in distance travelled. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and is constant. Horace Heffner wrote: If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the Earth? Horace Heffner wrote: More to come on that. On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Acceleration doesn't affect clocks. That's been verified (can't cite references, sorry). A clock in a centrifuge slows only as a result of the speed at which it's traveling, not as a result of the centripetal force. Horace Heffner wrote: This can not be consistent with relativity, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But it is. It's built into GR from the get-go. Horace Heffner wrote: I thought Einstein's equivalence principle was built into relativity. On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:12 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The equivalence principle is built in. So is the principle of relativity, and, as a consequence of the assumption that you can change to any arbitrary coordinate system without affecting the results, the lack of any local effect due to acceleration is built in, too. [snip enormous amounts, after reading -- thanks for the additional explanation of the retardation comments] Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The rate at which a clock is observed to tick does not depend on whether the clock is _currently_ undergoing acceleration. That has been both predicted and observed to be true, to the limits of the experiments which have been done. Horace Heffner wrote: Then you have conclusively proved GR is based upon a false assumption. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. When you accelerate, in SR, you find that distant clocks are apparently affected by _your_ acceleration. _THAT_ is equivalent to the GR clocks being affected by the gravitational potential. The effects are identical. You cannot separate the observations from the observer, and the concept of observable properties of external things being affected by changes within yourself (such as your acceleration) is a consequence of that. Horace Heffner wrote: Agreed - but only if you agree that clocks involving mass actually change due to velocity alone. In other words, if m = m0*gamma is purely due to appearances, i.e. due to retardation, then the only effect left to cause a time difference upon rejoining the clocks is acceleration. I don't think it is generally accepted an more that m=m0*gamma is a real effect. I definitely read that in some text. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Whether an effect is "real" or not is so slippery that I don't think there's any definitive answer. IMHO the Sagnac effect proves that time dilation is "real". In the opinion of lots of other people it does not. If you spin a rigid disk it will crack due to Fitzgerald contraction. I think that proves the contraction is "real". Many other people think it does not. The trouble with m0*gamma is it's the total energy of the object, and that's frame-dependent. Your point of view determines how big it is. But does that mean it isn't "real"? I don't think so -- that's like saying kinetic energy isn't "real" because it's frame dependent. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: What acceleration _DOES_ do is affect _DISTANT_ clocks. When YOU accelerate, clocks that are far, far away and toward which you are accelerating seem to you to run _faster_. Horace Heffner wrote: Irrelevant. Who cares how the clocks appear during the journey. I only care what happens when they come back together in the same location in the same reference frame. Then all retardation effects have cancelled because there is no retardation remaining. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Retardation explains what you see as you watch the other party, right? By using a powerful telescope, you can actually watch the other party's clock throughout the whole trip. By looking at the _size_ of the image, and the rate at which it's changing, you can see how fast the other party is moving (relative to you) and how far away the other party is. That picture-show which you can watch _MUST_ agree with the physical effects observed when you get home again and put the clocks next to each other. If you can explain how that happens you're probably as close to "understanding" this as you can get. The weird thing is that all the "effects of retardation" do _not_ cancel when you get home, and it's very hard to draw a line between what was "real" and what was an illusion. The weirdness you apparently see comes directly from the (assumed) fact that the light signal travels at C relative to _both_ the stationary and the moving parties. * * * In the "stationary" frame you can explain it all by using time dilation -- you can, with the help of extra (stationary) observers spaced out along the route, actually observe the traveler's clock running _slow_. (Just assume time dilation is real and you're done!) In the "moving" frame you've got a much bigger problem; just exactly when does the stationary clock run _fast_? The answer is: while you are accelerating. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If the traveler accelerates in a blazing flash lasting a few microseconds, and then IMMEDIATELY decelerates again, he'll experience negligible time skew. On the other hand, if he accelerates, coasts a long time, and then decelerates, he'll experience a lot of time skew. Horace Heffner wrote: OK, but then this implies the clock is mass related, and m=m0*gamma is a real, not a retardation effect. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Relativistic Doppler shift includes a term for gamma. The emitter's motion changes the apparent frequency, _and_ the emitter's different time base changes the apparent frequency, and the two effects must be combined to obtain the total observed effect. The "extra" mass of a moving body is (gama-1)*m0. At relativistic speeds that's where most of the body's energy is. If that's not "real", then most of the energy isn't "real", either. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: The gravitational time dilation is due to the gravitational potential, _not_ the local acceleration of the field. Horace Heffner wrote: I think this is not the only possible explanation. An alternative explanation is the red shift is due to the effect of gravity on the photon. Gravitons exchange momentum with photons, but not virtual photons. If this were not true black holes would not exist. In the case of a spherical shell object with a hole in it, I think the red shift would occur at the surface as light goes through the hole. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: That would make sense. The redshift "happens" in regions where the field is non-zero, of course, which is exactly where the photons would be interacting with it. If the field is the gradient of the potential, then the places where the field is strongest are also the places where the potential, and degree of redshift, are changing most rapidly. But I'm just talking about where and when you would "observe" a red- shift. The "observed" redshift is a function of the gravitational potential, but that's not the same as saying it's "caused" by it -- I should be more careful about how I say things... Horace Heffner wrote: It sounds like you are attributing a "real" effect to static gravitational potential that should be matched by an equivalent "real" effect from a static electromagnetic potential A. No such effect exists to my knowledge. AFAIK, The only effects that manifest as real are the result of changes in A, i.e in @a/@t. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: It seems that way but it's not. In relativity, the E field and the G "field" produce totally different kinds of "forces". Let's see if I can dredge this out of my memory.... The E field contains a heat-like component (heat is a force, too -- a candle increases the momentum of an object placed above it, so dP/ dt is nonzero in that case). Gravity is not a heat-like force, and I'm failing completely to recall just what difference that makes in this case. More mundanely, charge is conserved; you drop a charged rock down the hole, at the bottom of the hole it still has the same charge as it had at the top of the hole. If you turn it into a beam of light you need to figure out what to do with the charge -- you can't just throw it away. Gravitational mass is apparently _not_ conserved, not the same way; in particular, when you drop the rock down the hole, it gains gravitational mass. Oh well I'm just babbling at this point I should drop this line of reasoning until and unless I look it up again... Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Here's another cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet which was _offset_ from the center would have a _uniform_ (but non-zero) G-field inside it. It should have a g field due to the sphere having the radius from the hole to the center. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If you work it out, it's a completely uniform field. Very strange. (Easiest way to analyze it is to pretend the chamber is a separate sphere of "negative mass" and just sum its "negative" field with the field of an intact planet.) Horace Heffner wrote: I think any object held in that chamber would experience a gravitational red shift proportional to the g at its location, not to the gravitational potential. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? If that's what you're saying, I agree. Note again that since the field strength is the gradient of the potential, that's equivalent to saying the degree of redshift varies with the potential. Horace Heffner wrote: If what you were saying were true then objects in the center of the universe (assuming here a big bang) should all be massively red shifted, instead of vice versa. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Only if there's a gravitational field filling the universe, pointing to the center. That's the only way you'll get a lower gravitional potential at the center of the universe. And if there is such a field, then there must be a redshift associated with it, too. Horace Heffner wrote: No matter how you cut it, clock rate is a function of gravitational field. If the effects of the gravitational field differ from the effects of acceleration (this difference at any point) then Einstein's fundamental assumption for GR is violated and GR disappears in a flash! 8^) I also have to question the validity of the tangential straight rod approach you use. I could be missing something, but it doesn't seem to account for how we would see the clock advance as it passes behind the earth in the opposite direction. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on a rotating disk. Horace Heffner wrote: I didn't mention synchronization. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: You can't synchronize all the clocks on the Equator. If you try, you find there is a "date line" where two adjacent clocks are out of sync. It's crossing the "date line" which causes the hiccup. Horace Heffner wrote: Here again you are talking about how things appear in motion. I just want to figure out in an intuitive way what accounts for differences when clocks are brought back together. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Hmmm ... Consider again the laser-ring gyro. What causes the fringe shift when you rotate it? Signal velocity relative to the rim of the disk can be measured and is constant. Horace Heffner wrote: If there is no velocity effect which does this, then what remains except acceleration? Retardation is out of the picture. Now that I can see some real data it would be good to look at the effects of gravimagnetism, because these should modify the expected values. It is probably going to take an FEA program to do this right, and I just do not have the time right now. What I *can* see from the airplane data is it can not be fully analysed using only the earth's gravimagnetic field. It requires quantifying the solar and/or galactic gravimagnetic field. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: But would such effects not be swamped by the local influence of the Earth? Horace Heffner wrote: Gravimagnetics, given the presence of the significant ambient gravimagentic field, should enhance the time difference on the *airplane* clocks. In other words it agrees qualitatively with the time differences, but may be too small to make any difference. It does mean the two east-west opposed orbit satellites would have their orbital parameters affected, thus their velocities, and thus their clocks. It is interesting that polar satellites should veer left going over the North pole and right going over the South pole, from the point of view of a person in the satellite oriented feet down and facing the direction of motion. Satellites going west-to-east should experience a lower g value than those going east-to-west, and the higher the velocity the lower the g value. This means the g value at the surface should be, due to gravimagnetism, slightly less at the equator than at the pole, and should cycle in value over a 24 hour period, due to the earth's axis not aligning with the ambient gravimagnetic field. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Hmmm ... Interesting. On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Time dilation is clearly real, then. I send a clock out to Pluto and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is slow. I do it again, and it's slower. Horace Heffner wrote: Well the time difference is the result of a real effect. hat effect is not necessarily time dilation, because time dilation (observed time differences) is at least in part due to retardation. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Mass increase -- m == m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might disagree. Horace Heffner wrote: Yes, it seems that way to me. This effect can explain at least a portion of the "real" nature of the final time difference for the twins - depending on what kind of clock is used. If mass is used in the clock, then certainly real time differences can be expected. I am not sure there will be a real difference if the clocks used consist only of photons bouncing between mirrors. Which then brings up the "reality" of the Fitzgerald contraction. Is length contraction real? Certainly some of it is not real, because it is due at least in part to retardation. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: I accelerate a clock to gamma=10, and let it collide with a clock which is "stationary". The energy given up by the traveling clock is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a very real "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far larger than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at the speed at which it was traveling. I put a centrifuge into a (closed!!) box, and start it going. As it spins up I weigh it. It gets heavier, which again involves local measurement of a force. Once again, m == m0*gamma seems to me to be quite "real". Length contraction is far more dubious. As far as I know there is no way to observe it which doesn't involve making "simultaneous" measurements at separate locations which opens us up to all kinds of problems, though the "cracking spinning disk" experiment still bothers me. Horace Heffner wrote: I wonder if it is possible to make an accurate clock which doesn't depend on mass? Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Finally, just for fun, I put a resistor into a centrifuge, and spin it up, and measure its resistance using a stationary meter....... WTF?? Horace Heffner wrote: Nothing like trying to iron out experimental artifacts! Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: No, I haven't, because, as stated elsewhere, clocks in GR are apparently affected by gravitational _potential_ but not by the local intensity of the gravitational _field_. Horace Heffner wrote: >From a QM point of view this is utter nonsense. Field potential is merely a calculation device. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Absolutely. I agree. It's not a "field" in relativity either, and the "gravitational potential" doesn't behave like a sensible "potential". It's just a convenient way to think of it, and it works pretty well in the low-curvature (Newtonian) limit. A "field" is something that can be represented as a mathematical tensor field and in GR, gravity certainly can't be. Einstein tried hard to make that work before he abandoned it, or so I've been led to believe. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [regarding that spherical hole cut in a larger uniform sphere:] I don't know if I understand you. Light should be redshifted as it crosses the chamber, in proportion to the intensity of the field in the chamber, right? Horace Heffner wrote: Since the amount of red shift is a function of g, the change in red shift is a function of the change in g as movement occurs. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: If that's what you're saying, I agree. Horace Heffner wrote: I'm not sure we even agree on the g field in the bubble being uniform. As you move across the bubble you become "outside" a larger and larger sphere of material. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Yes but you're outside a larger and larger "bubble", too. It's a very cute example; I ran across it here: http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/gr/grav_cavity.htm Unfortunately it looks like the article has suffered an editing error (or six!) since the last time I saw it. It's completely illegible, at least in my browser, and the main illustration's gotten roached. Darn. (The page author's been having a rough time of it lately, I'm afraid, and hasn't had a lot of energy to worry about the state of his website.) Luckily I had stashed a copy of the (undamaged) page, to which I just referred to refresh my weak memory of the proof. The way to work this one out is to look at the field from an "intact" sphere, and _subtract_ the field due to the sphere we cut out to make the chamber. By the principle of superposition this is legit in Newtonian gravitation (doesn't quite work in GR, of course). The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of density rho is F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center of the sphere to the point where we're finding the field. For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. For the small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be R2. (Note that they point from different origins, but that's OK, all we care about are the direction and length.) Then the net field anywhere inside the small (cut-out) sphere will be F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the vector from the center of the big sphere to the center of the small sphere. So the force is also a constant, proportional to the distance between the spheres' centers, pointing along the line which connects the small sphere's center to the big sphere's center. According to GR the exact field won't be _quite_ uniform, I'm sure. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 20:04:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P43rqN028475; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:03:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P43mjI028420; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:03:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yow! Resistivity of printer paper: an actual value! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's something else you can do with low-current measurements: http://www.teralab.co.uk/Experiments/Ion_Chamber/ (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 20:21:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P30Ve9022871; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:08:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P0PeZr001088; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:25:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:25:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:38:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Brian Ahern attended Peter Hagelstein 's lecture on Cold Fusion Monday afternoon at MIT and gave me permission to post a synopsis of his impressions. Brian has the best 'down-to-earth' verbal grasp of these dynamics of anyone I have talked to - as well he should - since even before P&F, he had done thesis work on superconductivity in loaded palladium. Surprisingly, Brian may be moving away to some degree from the idea that some type of surrogate-superconductivity is necessary - or maybe not. Actually I meant to delve further into that but forgot. Perhaps I can get him to address that point specifically at a later date. The lecture closed PH's course on quantum mechanics for graduate EE students. Six or seven students attended as well as others. They had specifically requested a blackboard development rather than pre-conceived PowerPoint slides. Brian was quite impressed with the 2.5 hour lecture. Very encouraging that graduate EE students at MIT are still interested in getting this exposure to LENR, despite the remnant hostility to the field in much of mainstream science! "PH moved smoothly through the existing data and supporting evidence for LENR to a point where he could argue that the all CF effects occur within the first micron of the surface. In particular, the deuterons must populate vacancy sites in the near-surface lattice as diatomic molecules. These D2 molecules have a significant probability of moving to a 'compact' state." A compact state is when the two deuterium atoms in the molecule transcend the Coulomb Barrier and come within 10 Fermi's of one another. At this point the compact D-D system can oscillate back and forth with a 4He nucleus nearby in the lattice. This dual-particle, D-D & 4He can ultimately donate all of the 24 MeV of energy to the palladium lattice as heat without incurring any ionizing radiation. Brian had previously argued in his 1994 patent application that single deuterium atoms would have an average separation of 1.7 Angstroms on occasion and that this would elevate the fusion probability by about 35 orders of magnitude. "We never anticipated the possibility of 'double occupancy' of a vacancy site. This would have provided enough to increase the probability by an additional 20 orders of magnitude and made CF a plausible reality from Quantum mechanical calculations, " Brian added. PH's picture of CF reality is completely in harmony with Mitchell Swartz's data as well as that of Chuck Haldeman and the Thermacore data. It is not specific to palladium. On the contrary, many metals can produce this behavior resulting in excess heat. Hagelstein once again explained the data from Kasagi where he found unambiguous data for 3-body interactions in a deuterium experiment. It was clearly the result of a high energy deuteron interacting with Peter's D-D compact state jittering between close D-D nucleons and 4He. "This was a 'tour de force' lecture. Peter has done a great job of synthesizing all the data into a harmonious picture of reality that fits with simple quantum mechanical principles. His picture allows for excess energy production in the plasma electrolysis systems that are now being widely reported." "They could just as easily employ a liquid lattice as a metallic one. As such, heavy water near the cathode in high voltage electrolysis may provide optimal conditions for thermal energy production well beyond the Pons & Fleischmann palladium configuration. His model works equally well for light water systems as heavy." END of Brain Ahern's impressions of the Hagelstein Lecture. The last paragraph may be surprising to many observers, myself included. Perhaps more detail will be forthcoming. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 21:36:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P5UEgj016681; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:36:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P4tYVt028198; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:55:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D70478.7060100@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:54:16 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cmns@googlegroups.com, Vortex Subject: letter sent to Yale Daily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen, Below is the letter and message sent to the Yale Daily. Thanks for your support and your willingness to have your name attached. 29 people sent their names, which were too many for this letter. As a result I made an arbitrary choice. Each person whose name is attached was sent a copy at the same time so that the Editor has your address in case she wants to check on your willingness. The whole list and any additional names will be attached to a letter to Time, which I will soon send to you for your approval. This may do no good, but it is fun. Regards, Ed Editor of the Yale Daily News I'm submitting the following letter with 8 attached names of people from institutions in this country as well as in other countries who agree with the issues raised in this letter and have personal knowledge of the subject. I can provide you with many more names if you wish. I do not believe that Prof. Kevles has addressed the important issues of this subject in her response. By this letter, I would like to give her a chance to do so. Sincerely, Dr. Edmund Storms The Proper Role of Scholars in Examining Science. Recent news articles about corruption in science and recent letters to the Editor of the Yale Daily News have revealed an important difference in how corruption is viewed by people who have personal knowledge of a subject and by those who accept common knowledge. Letters provided by Dr. Storms and Prof. Kevles about “cold fusion” give a timely and important example for discussing this basic issue. The common knowledge is that "cold fusion", as first claimed by Profs. Pons and Fleischmann in 1989, is an example of bad science that was subsequently shown to be wrong. This attitude has been institutionalized in books and in articles written by uninformed people. Repeated use of the myth as an example of bad science continues to add to the false understanding, even though their basic claim has been shown to be valid and has been replicated many times. Consequently, in spite of new information, the myth grows because scholars and reporters do not re-examine the subject, instead accept what is considered to be common knowledge. This approach is especially dangerous when it is used by any professor working at a major university. It is dangerous because it inhibits new discovery and discussion of novel ideas. It is dangerous because science will not advance if new work is subjected to rejection, ridicule, and criticism just because it is not complete and consistent with established knowledge. All professors should know this because it is their job to advance knowledge, in addition to encouraging high standards. The challenge is to make these two roles work together, not be in conflict. Prof. Jean Paul Biberian Université d'Aix-Marseille II France Dr. Dan CHICEA, Associate Professor, Head of the Physics Department, University "Lucian Blaga", Sibiu, Romania Prof. Fangil A. Gareev, Joint Institute for Nuclear Research, Dubna, Moscow Region, Russia Prof. Brian Josephson Department of Physics University of Cambridge Cambridge, UK Prof. Melvin Miles Department of Chemistry University of LaVerne LaVerne, CA Research Prof. David J. Nagel The George Washington University Washington DC Dr. Edmund Storms Santa Fe, NM Los Alamos National Laboratory, retired Dr. Wu-Shou Zhang Associate Professor, Institute of Chemistry Chinese Academy of Sciences Beijing 100080, China REFERENCES B. Kevles article in Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/06/AR2006010602279.html (Registration required) Article reprinted here: http://indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=85789 (No registration needed) Storms letter in Yale Daily News: http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31250 Kevles response: http://yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31289 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 21:36:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P5UEgl016681; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:36:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P3fxeg015992; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:41:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:41:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c6215d$133c6c80$90027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:11:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6212A.C7D86AF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_90_100,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6212A.C7D86AF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6212A.C7D86AF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6212A.C7D86AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSo lets hear it from Uncle Al. Richard : http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6212A.C7D86AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
So lets hear it from Uncle Al.
 
Richard

: http://www.mazepath.c= om/uncleal/eotvos.htm

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6212A.C7D86AF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6212A.C7D86AF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6215d$1258c340$90027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6212A.C7D86AF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 23:31:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P7VCh5027949; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:31:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P7V666027879; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:31:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:31:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <28855828-E72E-4D83-AAC5-C6EF661AB635@mtaonline.net> Cc: "Taylor J. Smith" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:28:39 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is *still* not making it to vortex. I am sending this copied to Jack Smith in the hopes he can get it through. Horace On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:31 AM, Taylor J. Smith wrote: [snip huge amount of stuff] I see some material I posted never made it to vortex. Oh well. Sorry for typing "Keith" when I meant "Stephen A. Lawrence"! I hope *this* makes it through! I would like to sum up some things I said. Jefimenko's work has much value because he shows how much of relativity can be explained through retardation alone. However, some things cannot be explained by retardation. One example is the twins paradox, because the clocks of the twins can differ when they return together, and thus all retardation effects are removed. Effects called "real" here are effects which can not be fully accounted for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought back together are therefore real. Any changes in appearance, and that includes locally observed forces, and thus momenta, and energy, as well as images, that are brought back into balance upon return to the initial condition, are due to retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Gravitational time dilation and time dilation due to acceleration are indistinguishable according to Einstein's principle of equivalence. If we drop a clock down a gravitational well and let it sit there, the clock slows down. When we bring it back up and compare it to a twin clock, the times do not match. Gravitational time dilation is therefore a real effect. By the principle of equivalence, acceleration time dilation is a real effect. These effects can not account for all the "real" changes observed in the twins experiment. Some of the time dilation is due to coasting for long periods, i.e. might be said to be due to translating frames of reference. However, we know that relativistic effects due to translating frames of reference can be explained by retardation, thus these can not be the explanation for the real residual time difference at the conclusion of the twins experiment. Mass is involved in all clocks currently in use. Mass experimentally appears to change according to the relativistic rule m = m0 * gamma. Such a change in mass can also explain real translational time dilation due to the effect of mass on real clocks. It therefore seems reasonable to consider such a change real. This is not consistent with modern thinking regarding relativity, which translates units via "metrics" for purposes of computational convenience. Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. (see page 246-251 of *Spacetime Physics* by Taylor and Wheeler.) From this computational convenience flows a host of nonintuitive and seemingly nonsensical physical notions about what is real and what is not. The laws of gravity and electromagnetism can be united into an isomorphism (but permanently disunited as forces) simply by using including a factor i = sqrt(-1) in the unit of mass charge, and making a consistent selection of corresponding values for epsilon_0 and mu_0 as shown in Table 1 below. Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The derivation of this is described in . All the laws and entities of EM under this isomorphism now have a one to one correspondence with the laws of gravity, including magnetism, relativistic effects, and quantum effects. Utilizing the isomorphism, however, with the greatest consistency, apparently requires some paradigm changes in modes of thinking and assumptions regarding reality. For example, this isomorphism predicts, requires, a new class of "real" relativistic effects, namely change of apparent charge with velocity, and Coulombic time dilation. How is it then that mass or time or any other "real" variable can vary from one inertial frame to another and yet still be real? I think the answer is that the values measured in an observers reference frame are real to him, real in that frame, except for those values observed in other frames and thus distorted by retardation. What is real in one reference frame A is not real in another reference frame B, but that does not prevent the observer in reference frame B from excluding from his observations any retardation effects and thus predicting what the real differences would be in frasme A, or after moving from frame A to B or frame B back to frame A. The availability of "real" energy and momenta can vary between reference frames, and the ability to move between frames in a cyclical fashion can permit use of this fact. Real energy available in frame A but not Frame B, can be utilized for state changes in Frame A, e.g. manufacturing structures, and translating to Frame B where the energy for the state changes is not available. This can result in a permanent and thus real change in state in frame B. Any change in state that can be repeated, like clock differences, can be accumulated by cyclical action. This includes then the possibility of accumulation of real momentum or real energy by cyclical actions. The twin problem then, gives us a meaningful look at what is real and what is not, both in physical law and in potentialities. It provides an opportunity to question existing paradigms of thought and convention. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 23:39:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P7KL7E021936; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:23:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P76HKF012283; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:06:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:06:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <009c01c61fc5$caae8090$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> References: <009c01c61fc5$caae8090$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8D90C6FB-8DDF-4E13-8680-82864ACF323A@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:00:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This has not made it to vortex in days and several tries so here goes yet again: On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:36 PM, John Coviello wrote: > Z machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to > produce conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased > the machine's X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two > years. > > http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm Thanks for posting. This is astounding progress. All I can say is Bravo Z Team! The Z approach may be on the way to obsoleting tokamak and thus ITER. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 00:32:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P8U9pN028382; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:31:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P8IFU4022746; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:18:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:18:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field Near Earth - draft Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:15:37 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The ambient gravimagnetic field in Earth's vicinity is much smaller than I had thought. Stephan A Lawrence was right on that point. I previously had a calculation error, but at least I found it. This discussion has taken WAY more time that I expected! 8^) Ambient Gravimagnetic Field Near Earth BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2 = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. The gravicurrent is (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s. Note that i here is the imaginary number (-1)^(1/2). The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON MAGNET IN UNIFORM FIELD A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q for 90 deg precession: Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_earth = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_earth = 3.40x10^21 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg angle of precession. Knowing Q_earth = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q * sin(23.45 deg.) = Q * 0.398 Q_earth = (3.40x10^21 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g * mu_0 X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * mu_0 * K * sin(23.45 deg.) K_ambient = Q_g/(mu_g * mu_0 * 0.398) K_ambient = (1.353x10^21 N m) /((5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s) * (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)*0.398) K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k_earth: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 01:06:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0P91JWh014700; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0P91BOI014613; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:01:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:01:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060125090019512.7D20E1C00083@mwinf3011.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060125090020.00a1c20c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:00:20 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Resent-Message-ID: <6jPWKB.A.9jD.U5z1DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:15 pm 24/01/2006 -0500, you wrote: >But you left out a few verses. Yep. I was hoping someone wouldn't be able to resist latching on to that one. ... > "I am Sir Brian? Oh, no! > I am Sir Brian? Who's he? > I haven't got any title, I'm Botany -- > Plain Mr. Botany (B)." > >------------- > >And I can't help wondering, why "Botany"? It seems like an odd name. >And why does the whole thing end with "Botany B", as though there's >something significant about that name? The penal colony in Australia >was Botany Bay, IIRC, and it may still have existed when that was >written. Did Milne have some obscure connection in mind here, or what? Well spotted Stephen. That is just the kind of alertness to coincidences which may not be - and curiosity about them that a good research scientist needs. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 04:18:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PC1sqN007748; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:01:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PC1mrt007674; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:01:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:01:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:18:02 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:31 AM, Taylor J. Smith wrote: [snip huge amount of stuff] I see some material I posted never made it to vortex. Oh well. Sorry for typing "Keith" when I meant "Stephen A. Lawrence"! I hope *this* makes it through! I would like to sum up some things I said. Jefimenko's work has much value because he shows how much of relativity can be explained through retardation alone. However, some things cannot be explained by retardation. One example is the twins paradox, because the clocks of the twins can differ when they return together, and thus all retardation effects are removed. Effects called "real" here are effects which can not be fully accounted for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought back together are therefore real. Any changes in appearance, and that includes locally observed forces, and thus momenta, and energy, as well as images, that are brought back into balance upon return to the initial condition, are due to retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Gravitational time dilation and time dilation due to acceleration are indistinguishable according to Einstein's principle of equivalence. If we drop a clock down a gravitational well and let it sit there, the clock slows down. When we bring it back up and compare it to a twin clock, the times do not match. Gravitational time dilation is therefore a real effect. By the principle of equivalence, acceleration time dilation is a real effect. These effects can not account for all the "real" changes observed in the twins experiment. Some of the time dilation is due to coasting for long periods, i.e. might be said to be due to translating frames of reference. However, we know that relativistic effects due to translating frames of reference can be explained by retardation, thus these can not be the explanation for the real residual time difference at the conclusion of the twins experiment. Mass is involved in all clocks currently in use. Mass experimentally appears to change according to the relativistic rule m = m0 * gamma. Such a change in mass can also explain real translational time dilation due to the effect of mass on real clocks. It therefore seems reasonable to consider such a change real. This is not consistent with modern thinking regarding relativity, which translates units via "metrics" for purposes of computational convenience. Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. (see page 246-251 of *Spacetime Physics* by Taylor and Wheeler.) From this computational convenience flows a host of nonintuitive and seemingly nonsensical physical notions about what is real and what is not. The laws of gravity and electromagnetism can be united into an isomorphism (but permanently disunited as forces) simply by using including a factor i = sqrt(-1) in the unit of mass charge, and making a consistent selection of corresponding values for epsilon_0 and mu_0 as shown in Table 1 below. Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The derivation of this is described in . All the laws and entities of EM under this isomorphism now have a one to one correspondence with the laws of gravity, including magnetism, relativistic effects, and quantum effects. Utilizing the isomorphism, however, with the greatest consistency, apparently requires some paradigm changes in modes of thinking and assumptions regarding reality. For example, this isomorphism predicts, requires, a new class of "real" relativistic effects, namely change of apparent charge with velocity, and Coulombic time dilation. How is it then that mass or time or any other "real" variable can vary from one inertial frame to another and yet still be real? I think the answer is that the values measured in an observers reference frame are real to him, real in that frame, except for those values observed in other frames and thus distorted by retardation. What is real in one reference frame A is not real in another reference frame B, but that does not prevent the observer in reference frame B from excluding from his observations any retardation effects and thus predicting what the real differences would be in frasme A, or after moving from frame A to B or frame B back to frame A. The availability of "real" energy and momenta can vary between reference frames, and the ability to move between frames in a cyclical fashion can permit use of this fact. Real energy available in frame A but not Frame B, can be utilized for state changes in Frame A, e.g. manufacturing structures, and translating to Frame B where the energy for the state changes is not available. This can result in a permanent and thus real change in state in frame B. Any change in state that can be repeated, like clock differences, can be accumulated by cyclical action. This includes then the possibility of accumulation of real momentum or real energy by cyclical actions. The twin problem then, gives us a meaningful look at what is real and what is not, both in physical law and in potentialities. It provides an opportunity to question existing paradigms of thought and convention. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 04:54:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PCo6pn031216; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:54:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PCnLEL030773; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:49:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:49:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D77F99.51AE9C4E@centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:39:37 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: the Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20051229203025.00a0ee98@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, 1-25-06 I'm forwarding to Vortex the enclosed below at Horace's request. Jack Smith -------------- Horace wrote: This is *still* not making it to vortex. I am sending this copied to Jack Smith in the hopes he can get it through. Horace forwarded to Jack Smith on 1-25-06: I see some material I posted never made it to vortex. Oh well. Sorry for typing "Keith" when I meant "Stephen A. Lawrence"! I hope *this* makes it through! I would like to sum up some things I said. Jefimenko's work has much value because he shows how much of relativity can be explained through retardation alone. However, some things cannot be explained by retardation. One example is the twins paradox, because the clocks of the twins can differ when they return together, and thus all retardation effects are removed. Effects called "real" here are effects which can not be fully accounted for by retardation. The effects which remain when clocks are brought back together are therefore real. Any changes in appearance, and that includes locally observed forces, and thus momenta, and energy, as well as images, that are brought back into balance upon return to the initial condition, are due to retardation effects, delays in the communication of conditions. Real effects are cumulative upon cyclical motion. Retardation effects do not accumulate upon cyclical motion. Gravitational time dilation and time dilation due to acceleration are indistinguishable according to Einstein's principle of equivalence. If we drop a clock down a gravitational well and let it sit there, the clock slows down. When we bring it back up and compare it to a twin clock, the times do not match. Gravitational time dilation is therefore a real effect. By the principle of equivalence, acceleration time dilation is a real effect. These effects can not account for all the "real" changes observed in the twins experiment. Some of the time dilation is due to coasting for long periods, i.e. might be said to be due to translating frames of reference. However, we know that relativistic effects due to translating frames of reference can be explained by retardation, thus these can not be the explanation for the real residual time difference at the conclusion of the twins experiment. Mass is involved in all clocks currently in use. Mass experimentally appears to change according to the relativistic rule m = m0 * gamma. Such a change in mass can also explain real translational time dilation due to the effect of mass on real clocks. It therefore seems reasonable to consider such a change real. This is not consistent with modern thinking regarding relativity, which translates units via "metrics" for purposes of computational convenience. Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. (see page 246-251 of *Spacetime Physics* by Taylor and Wheeler.) From this computational convenience flows a host of nonintuitive and seemingly nonsensical physical notions about what is real and what is not. The laws of gravity and electromagnetism can be united into an isomorphism (but permanently disunited as forces) simply by using including a factor i = sqrt(-1) in the unit of mass charge, and making a consistent selection of corresponding values for epsilon_0 and mu_0 as shown in Table 1 below. Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The derivation of this is described in . All the laws and entities of EM under this isomorphism now have a one to one correspondence with the laws of gravity, including magnetism, relativistic effects, and quantum effects. Utilizing the isomorphism, however, with the greatest consistency, apparently requires some paradigm changes in modes of thinking and assumptions regarding reality. For example, this isomorphism predicts, requires, a new class of "real" relativistic effects, namely change of apparent charge with velocity, and Coulombic time dilation. How is it then that mass or time or any other "real" variable can vary from one inertial frame to another and yet still be real? I think the answer is that the values measured in an observers reference frame are real to him, real in that frame, except for those values observed in other frames and thus distorted by retardation. What is real in one reference frame A is not real in another reference frame B, but that does not prevent the observer in reference frame B from excluding from his observations any retardation effects and thus predicting what the real differences would be in frasme A, or after moving from frame A to B or frame B back to frame A. The availability of "real" energy and momenta can vary between reference frames, and the ability to move between frames in a cyclical fashion can permit use of this fact. Real energy available in frame A but not Frame B, can be utilized for state changes in Frame A, e.g. manufacturing structures, and translating to Frame B where the energy for the state changes is not available. This can result in a permanent and thus real change in state in frame B. Any change in state that can be repeated, like clock differences, can be accumulated by cyclical action. This includes then the possibility of accumulation of real momentum or real energy by cyclical actions. The twin problem then, gives us a meaningful look at what is real and what is not, both in physical law and in potentialities. It provides an opportunity to question existing paradigms of thought and convention. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 07:25:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PFN6QE020742; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:23:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PFMwRj020663; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:22:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:22:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:22:34 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for the summary. I had one comment (really just one, this time!) Horace Heffner wrote: > > > Mass in the > conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. There's a semantic problem here. "An invariant" is a well-defined mathematical concept. However, it's just that -- a mathematical concept. Saying "this is an _invariant_" doesn't mean it's some simple physical property which always has the same value. In this case, the square of the rest mass is the (negative) squared magnitude of the 4-momentum, and so it is "an invariant"; no matter what frame of reference is used, the squared magnitude of the 4-momentum is still the square of the rest mass. (Math given below...) But can you weigh it on a scale? No, not necessarily; that's not what it means. Here's another "invariant": The quantity m0*gamma for a particular object, as measured by a particular observer. It's the inner product of the observer's 4-velocity with the object's 4-momentum. The inner product of two 4-vectors is an invariant, and so this value -- commonly called the "relativisitic mass" seen by a particular observer -- is also an invariant. It's currently not in style to use the term "relativistic mass" and in fact you can sometimes start an argument going in a group of relativityists (and get called a lot of names) just by pointing out that relativistic mass as viewed by a particular observer is an invariant. People don't seem to like that -- perhaps it makes it too obvious that the property of invariance is a mathematical, not physical, property. People like to believe that they know what's real and what's just an illusion or artifact, and pointing out that the lines between the two are fuzzy tends to upset them. It's easy to forget that relativity theory says _nothing_ about what is "real" and what is not. ALL it can do is predict what will be observed in various situations. Anything more than that requires some additional theory (or philosophy). * * * Justifications for what I just said: 4-momentum of an object: m * gamma * (1, vx, vy, vz) Squared magnitude of 4-momentum: m^2 * gamma^2 * (v^2 - 1) = -m^2 * (1 - v^2) / (1 - v^2) = -m^2 So, the rest mass is "an invariant". Now, let's say an object of rest mass M is viewed by an observer moving at velocity V relative to the object. Plugging in values for an arbitrary frame leads to a mess, but we can evaluate it trivially in the observer's rest frame. In that case the object's 3-velocity is -V, and for the inner product of the object's 4-momentum with the observer's 4-velocity, we have: = M * gamma * (-1 - V*0) = -M * gamma If you transform both 4-vectors to any other frame of reference, their inner product doesn't change. So, relativistic mass as seen by a particular observer is "an invariant", too. With all that said, when someone refers to the "invariant mass" they mean the rest mass. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 09:58:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PHKS6L020929; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:22:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PGeiPO032089; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:40:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:40:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:42:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > "They could just as easily employ a liquid lattice as a metallic > one. As such, heavy water near the cathode in high voltage > electrolysis may provide optimal conditions for thermal energy > production well beyond the Pons & Fleischmann palladium > configuration. His model works equally well for light water systems > as heavy." A field in water at the cathode is not different from a field in water at the anode - except for the fact the anode field can be orders of magnitude more intense, and the water structure better organized. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 12:30:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PKKW1j022501; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PKDpJX017981; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:13:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:13:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:27:47 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: question for Bill Beaty Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm looking for a post that I made in late August. I hit the Vortex archives and attempted to use the search feature, which didn't work. Then I started paging back. When I got to late September the previous page link stopped working. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 12:30:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PKKW1l022501; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PJ3gtr011461; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:03:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:03:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:03:27 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: questions about Horacs's paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is the bend and symmetrical stretch frequencies of water? I assume that the bend angle is the angle between the hydrogen atoms and the oxygen, and that the stretch has to do with the length of the H-O bond. What is negative resistance? is it the same as conductance or suceptance? The energetic free proton effects are happening in the blue-green glow creating interphase. What is interphase? The zinc can be passivated in a weak electrolyte, what does passivated mean? The black hole absorbing the energy of the reaction is very interesting. I've heard this story before, IMHO, if you're producing a reaction, and not detecting the energy, then you have a problem, and you might as well drop what ever else you're doing and figure it out. The part about the invisible photons interests me too. Isn't that an oxymoron? How do these invisible photons figure into the missing energy? In table 5 of the Heisenberg Traps, oxygen stands out as having an energy even higher than Al. Given the significance that you attach to this energy, I'm wondering about the significance of this. Given the necessity of electricity in power all of the LENR schemes that I'm aware of,, I'm fascinated by your mention of using semiconducting materials in the lattice. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 12:30:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PKKW1n022501; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PJ1D6v010169; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:01:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c301c621dd$f5b114f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:34:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > A field in water at the cathode is not different from a field in > water at the anode - except for the fact the anode field can be > orders of magnitude more intense, and the water structure better > > organized. I think that it has to do with that first micron of interface - only this time that interface would be in the liquid, not the electrode metal. Perhaps a "colloid" is a better term than "liquid" since the implication is quite different. A colloid would have nanoparticles, most of which came off the anode originally - each roughly spherical of perhaps 20-100 bound metal atoms, a slight positive change, and acting as an "exciton". And I am a bit surprised that you are in apparent disagreement - as this mechanism would seem favor your idea for the "electron-pair" which is leaving the cathode - to catalyze fusion at that interface, as it is being attracted - would it not? ... or does the pair never leave the electrode in the paired configuration ? At the cathode, in general, you would have some free protons (deuterons) being attracted at the same time as positive metal ions, or colloidal excitons - whereas at the anode it would be a different story and only electrons and negative deuteron molecular ions would be attracted. Or so it would seem. Since the local fields at the micron geometry can be very intense in either situation, this seems to favor the cathode. This is just my guess. It would be good to get several expert opinions on this. If we can frame it as a very specific question, I will ask Brian for his opinion. If Ed Storms is tuned-in, maybe he would like to comment on Haglestein's viewpoint and his own. Do you disagree with the above generalizations? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 15:42:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PLeF7a003156; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:43:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PKmvB4006842; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:48:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:48:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:43:38 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F00727315E53-A50-CB61@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0PKmpxQ006688 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene   "This was a 'tour de force' lecture. Peter has done a great job of synthesizing all the data into a harmonious picture of reality that fits with simple quantum mechanical principles. His picture allows for excess energy production in the plasma electrolysis systems that are now being widely reported."    "They could just as easily employ a liquid lattice as a metallic one. As such, heavy water near the cathode in high voltage electrolysis may provide optimal conditions for thermal energy production well beyond the Pons & Fleischmann palladium configuration. His model works equally well for light water systems as heavy."  <><><><><><><> My, my, my. Have you posted this to the hydrino list yet? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 15:43:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0PKKW1p022501; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:30:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PI3wYi013028; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:03:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4/fUHnxaACSiZKOxvl33Y5vfqNnOtwiMiG4lVroBPGQzuvE1KD1ILcGcCI79dhHi03b+p8Iak2wqzCBLRjw5MC8452IN91cL7DYrM6wJaHN0XEnkzYBF9gSuxdDxgTevsYMbP4I3G44D61Ccz4ySkUyguOExeqQeDG7Hy+qw86w= ; Message-ID: <20060125175703.18575.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:57:03 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re The Horace Hiatus To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: It's a very cute example. [... cute example: A spherical chamber cut out of a uniformly dense planet ...] I ran across it here: http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/gr/grav_cavity.htm The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of density rho is F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center of the sphere to the point where we're finding the field. For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. For the small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be R2. (Note that they point from different origins, but that's OK, all we care about are the direction and length.) Then the net field anywhere inside the small (cut-out) sphere will be F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the vector from the center of the big sphere to the center of the small sphere. So the force is also a constant, proportional to the distance between the spheres' centers, pointing along the line which connects the small sphere's center to the big sphere's center. ----------------------------------- Not so. R1 and R2 are NOT the actual radii of the spheres, but the radii to the point of measurement. This is because any spherical shell of constant density has no net gravitational effect on an object within it, so you only need the mass of the spherical volume with radius equal to your distance from the center of mass. Thus I can measure the gravitational field strength along a constant radius from the center of the large sphere (R1 constant) but at different locations within the volume of the small sphere (R2 variable) and achieve different results. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 16:17:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q0AMcU018865; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:17:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PNC5oo019717; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:12:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:12:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." To: Subject: RE: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:34:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8D90C6FB-8DDF-4E13-8680-82864ACF323A@mtaonline.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <1pI2SC.A.B0E.FXA2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bizarre story about time traveler John Titor that predicted Z-Machine and claims his time machine needed that technology. http://www.johntitor.com Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US (27oC now :-) ) http://members.cox.net/hoyt-stearns -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:00 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven This has not made it to vortex in days and several tries so here goes yet again: On Jan 22, 2006, at 5:36 PM, John Coviello wrote: > Z machine -- the former dark horse among accelerators meant to > produce conditions required for nuclear fusion -- have increased > the machine's X-ray power output by nearly 10 times in the last two > years. > > http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm Thanks for posting. This is astounding progress. All I can say is Bravo Z Team! The Z approach may be on the way to obsoleting tokamak and thus ITER. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 16:17:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q0AMcW018865; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:17:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PN79xJ016612; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:07:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:07:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=K8xERaCMnDs/znRlcLPLLJDWV0MPzsTBwrWsn9VpeadErNsVlAE/oQs+ZUJXYf24n5kKSd2Le70+mKwFwu1zYLdan8uhTNNlT37PZOhSP97LJpBFBBI+uePLGU/D57GWy/+MF3PIZyXjeUZf497UDIwvHldjMIDdnG8gVDwUSws= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:32:50 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: question for Bill Beaty In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39795_7326436.1138221170155" References: Resent-Message-ID: <_zIitD.A.XDE.aSA2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_39795_7326436.1138221170155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline what was the body? ive got the list on gmail, so ive got it all archived and searchable. On 1/25/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > I'm looking for a post that I made in late August. I hit the Vortex > archives and attempted to use the search feature, which didn't work. > Then I started paging back. When I got to late September the previous > page link stopped working. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_39795_7326436.1138221170155 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline what was the body?  ive got the list on gmail, so ive got it all archi= ved and searchable.

On 1/25/06, = thomas malloy <temalloy@usf= amily.net> wrote:
I'm looking for a post that I ma= de in late August. I hit the Vortex
archives and attempted to use the se= arch feature, which didn't work.
Then I started paging back. When I got to late September the previouspage link stopped working.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

<= /div>


--
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest wha= t you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to contin= ue to write"  Voltaire=20 ------=_Part_39795_7326436.1138221170155-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 16:17:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q0AMcY018865; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:17:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0PMaLL7032568; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:36:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:36:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:35:59 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7F016D97C71F3-A50-CFA2@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Puthoff/Sarfatti Casimir Argument Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This might turn into one of those formatting nightmares. If so, you can read the message at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SarfattiScienceSeminars/message/8996 Grimer might enjoy it since it discusses the three dimensional Casimir effect. BTW, I think /\ means gradient? <><><><><><> From: Jack Sarfatti Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:45 pm Subject: Fwd: Hal Puthoff's Misunderstanding of the Zero Point Energy & Gravity > > Memorandum for the Record > > Note that an undersecretary of National Directorate of Intelligence > under John Negroponte is arranging with Kit Green for a debate on > this very issue between me and Hal Puthoff. Hal's insistence on > this wrong physics is putting our national defense planning in > great jeapardy in my opinion. Therefore, it is vital to get this > point understood by the decision makers in The Pentagon and the USG > Intelligence Community where Hal Puthoff has significant influence > because of his previous secret work. Indeed Hal held the same > security clearances as Kit Green when Kit was a top officer in the > CIA in the 70's & 80's - maybe even into the 90's? > > No Hal is raising a complete Red Herring and completely > misunderstands the physics of zero point energy. As a matter of > fact everything I have said is completely consistent with Bryce > DeWitt's formula. Indeed it is the same equation 12.29 p. 122 in > Matt Visser's book "Lorentzian Wormholes." Hal below is throwing > sand in everyone's face with those fancy quotes that are true but > that are completely irrelevant to the problem. > > Hal does not conceptualize the difference between the relative > quantum electrodynamical influence of zero point energy in contrast > to its qualitatively very different absolute gravitational > influence imposed by Einstein's equivalence principle. Hal's PV > theory is wrong because it is incompatible with the equivalence > principle. Ask Matt Visser and Bill Unruh about that. Furthermore, > the conception of zero point energy in the theory of Hal with > Bernie Haisch is wrong for the same reason. > > Hal's misunderstanding of this key point is highlighted by his > claim that UNIFORM ZERO POINT ENERGY DENSITY has NO GRAVITY EFFECT. > If you read Lenny Susskind's "Cosmic Landscape" you will see why > Hal is wrong - proved wrong by observation since the essentially > UNIFORM positive cosmological constant (Dark Zero Point Energy > Density) is causing the expansion of the space of the universe not > to slow down but to speed up! If Hal was correct this would be > impossible. > > The basic effect is at the scale of 300 Megaparsecs or more (from > Type 1a Supernovae data of Saul Permutter at UCB) > > V(zpf) = -(1/2)c^2/\(a(t)r)^2 > > Where a(t) is the Hubble scale factor and "r" is the coordinate > distance between 2 galaxies for example, > > The UNIVERSAL zero point energy induced cosmic field g-acceleration > is then > > g = - dV(zpf)/dr = + c^2/\a(t)^2r > > When /\ > 0 this is an anti-gravity repulsive universal "inertial" > force per unit test mass PROPORTIONAL to the separation of the > galaxies EXACTLY as written by Stanford University's Physics > Professor Leonard Susskind in his book "Cosmic Landscape" that Hal > needs to read cover to cover ASAP. I have given the simple > equations that Lenny explains with ordinary English e.g. his > chapter "The Mother of All Physics Problems". You can think of /\ > as the "height" of the cosmic landscape of the actual infinity of > parallel pocket universes in Super Cosmos AKA "Megaverse". > > Now as to Hal's "shell game" below, if you go to Matt Visser's book > p. 122 everything Hal cites below is explained. > > The basic point is that, the Casimir plate ZPF stress energy tensor > including everything Hal cites below is eq. 12.30 > > tuv(Casimir) ~ (pi^2/720)(hcbar/a^4)Matrix > > a is the separation of the plates > > The QED computed Matrix M is 4x4 diagonal with the nonvanishing > diagonal elements > > M00 = -1 > M11 = +1 > M22 = +1 > M33 = -3 > > All the off-diagonal elements like M23 & M01 = 0 > > O is the time direction, 1 & 2 are the 2 transverse directions > parallel to the plates > > 3 is the longitudinal direction perpendicular to the plates! > > The - 3 means that the longitudinal pressure along direction 3 > perpendicular to the plates is NEGATIVE and is 3x larger than the > POSITIVE transverse pressures along directions 1 & 2. This assumes > POSITIVE virtual photon zero point vacuum energy density that is > required by the Bose-Einstein quantum statistics (commutators of > creation and destruction photon operator rather than the Fermi- > Dirac anticommutators). > > OK, then, the ordinary electrically induced effective pressure on > the plates is > > -3(pi^2/720)(hcbar/a^4) > > Therefore the TOTAL QED attractive force on the plates is simply > > -3(pi^2/720)(hcbar/a^4)A > > where A is the area of the plates. > > If you made this into a closed cavity, the transverse pressures are > positive causing a repulsive transverse QED force on the plates > perpendicular to the 1 & 2 directions. Therefore, we have a > longitudinal SQUEEZE transverse STRETCH QED effect on the box > cavity from the above tensor. Above I simply work out in detail > what Hal is pointing to in general in his remarks below. > > However, and this is the point Hal & Co do not understand, the > direct gravity effect is OPPOSITE to the QED effect. Of course, in > this experiment this direct gravity effect is relative small and > ignorable to first approximation. > > The DIRECT GRAVITY EFFECT of even UNIFORM ZERO POINT energy density > that Hal denies comes from the different equation > > Guv + (8piG/c^4)tuv(Casimir) = 0 > > That Hal never writes down in the proper context in relation to the > problem. This is what Hal is missing and it is a completely > independent effect from the above mathematics that give the QED > forces. > > In summary > > 1. Uniform zero point energy directly bends space-time and can do > so strongly compared to ordinary matter. > > 2. The universal g-inertial forces generated by zero point energy > are opposite to the electrical forces generated by this same zero > point energy. > > 3. The trick for practical metric engineering the fabric of space- > time is to get the gravity effect larger than the electrical effect. > > 4. Positive zero point energy density anti-gravitates with > repulsive inertial forces on non-geodesic worldlines. Negative zero > point energy density gravitates with attractive inertial forces on > non-geodesic world lines. Of course all inertial forces vanish on > geodesic worldlines by the equivalence principle that Hal & Co > inconsistently ignores in reaching his wrong conclusions - in my > opinion. > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:21 AM, Puthoff@... wrote: > >> Jack often attempts to draw a line in the sand between his model >> of, e.g., charge cluster containment by a "dark energy" mechanism >> vs. models of mine and others involving the Casimir Effect. >> Presumably this is because his understanding of the Casimir Effect >> is very narrow, e.g., that it concerns only a weak force >> attracting neutral conducting plates. Therefore, for the sake of >> setting the record straight with regard to the underlying physics, >> I quote from a paper by Bryce DeWitt , "The Casimir Effect in >> Field Theory," in Physics in the Making, ed. A. Sarlemijn and M. >> J. Sparnaay, pp. 247-272, NHPL, Amsterdam (1989). There, the >> broadened understanding of just what the Casimir effect pertains >> to in a curved space-time is presented. >> >> <
> >> A mathematical description that effectively embodies Einstein's >> proposal that the vacuum be viewed as a textured "ether" was given >> years ago by Schwinger (1951). In the presence of an external >> source, a quantized field initially in the vacuum state need not >> stay in that state. Schwinger showed that all physical properties >> of the field can be derived from a knowledge of how the vacuum >> persistence amplitude varies as the source is changed. The ether >> thus contains a complete blueprint for the field dynamics. >> >> The ether may be probed by other means than sources. One may vary >> boundary conditions... or one may vary external fields. For >> example, the vacuum-to-vacuum matrix element of the stress tensor >> is given by the functional derivative >> >> = -2i (&/&g-uv). (& >> denotes partial derivatives) >> >> Here, |in,vac> and |out,vac> are initial and final "vacuum" >> states, respectively, is the vacuum persistence >> amplitude, and g_uv is an external metric field, frequently >> referred to as a background field. In principle, the "vacuum" >> states can be defined in terms of any complete sets of creation >> and annihilation operators constructed out of the field >> variables. In practice, they are based on Killing-vector fields >> that are assumed to exist in the "in" and "out" regions. Any >> combination of fields may contribute to the stress tensor >> appearing in the above expression, including the quantized >> gravitational field. When the gravitational field is included, >> the g_uv appearing in the above expression plays the role of an >> arbitrary zero point for the gravitational field fluctuation, and | >> in,vac> and |out,vac> can be shown to be coherent states. >> Coherent states of this kind can be viewed as relative vacuum >> states, i.e., vacuum states relative to the given background. >> Note that the choice of a given background assumes a choice of >> topology for the space-time manifold. >> >> Other fields besides the gravitational field can serve as >> background fields. For example, in quantum electrodynamics the >> equation analogous to the above expression is >> >> = -1(&/&A_u). >> >> Here j^u is the charge current 4-vector and A_u is the vector >> potential either for an externally imposed electromagnetic field >> or for a classical field serving as an arbitrary zero point for >> electromagnetic field fluctuations. The above expression is >> generally nonvanishing whenever the background field is >> nonvanishing - a phenomenon known as vacuum polarization. >> Similarly, the above expression is generally different from zero >> whenever the background geometry is curved. That is to say, >> curvature induces nonvanishing stress energy in the vacuum. We >> have already seen that nontrivial spatial topology, or neutral >> conducting surfaces, can induce nonvanishing stress-energy. This >> is just the Casimir effect. Curvature simply adds more to it. >> One may say that the first expression above embodies the most >> general statement of the Casimir effect. Nowadays any form of >> vacuum-induced energy is referred to as Casimir energy.>> >> >> Hal Puthoff > > Again, what Hal cites above is CORRECT but is completely IRRELEVANT > to the point. It's simply misdirection, fancy dazzle obscuring a > very simple point with arcane math that few on this list can > understand. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 20:09:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q3oHlT011120; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:50:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q3oAPY011051; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:50:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:50:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:47:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:22 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Thank you for the summary. I had one comment (really just one, > this time!) > > Horace Heffner wrote: >> Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. > > There's a semantic problem here. "An invariant" is a well-defined > mathematical concept. However, it's just that -- a mathematical > concept. Saying "this is an _invariant_" doesn't mean it's some > simple physical property which always has the same value. > Wheeler and Taylor say the mass of any isolated system is invariant. In other words: m^2 = E^2 + p^2 in one frame then m^2 = (E')^2 - (p')^2 in another for that isolated subsystem. Problem is, no subsystem of mass is isolated. Stuff comes in and out of the vacuum constantly. A significant portion of the magnetic field of the proton comes from strange quark pairs popping in and out of the vacuum, for example. Acceleration affects how things pop in and out of the vacuum and how long they stick around. > It's easy to forget that relativity theory says _nothing_ about > what is "real" and what is not. Who's relativity? Certainly not mine! You make it sound like there is only one version! 8^) > > With all that said, when someone refers to the "invariant mass" > they mean the rest mass. Not Wheeler and Taylor. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 20:09:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q3o6vD011012; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:50:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q3SRPf030649; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:28:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:28:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D841C6.3050800@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:28:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re The Horace Hiatus References: <20060125175703.18575.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060125175703.18575.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of > density > rho is > > F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R > > where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center of > the > sphere to the point where we're finding the field. > > For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. For > the > small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be R2. > (Note that they point from different origins, but > that's > OK, all we care about are the direction and length.) > Then the net field anywhere inside the small (cut-out) > sphere will be > > F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) > > But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the vector > from the center of the big sphere to the center of the > small sphere. > > So the force is also a constant, proportional to the > distance between the spheres' centers, pointing along > the > line which connects the small sphere's center to the > big > sphere's center. > ----------------------------------- > > Not so. > R1 and R2 are NOT the actual radii of the spheres, but > the radii to the point of measurement. Exactly. Outside the sphere, the field goes as 1/R^2. Inside the sphere it goes as R. On the surface of a uniform sphere of radius R the field strength is (4/3)G*pi*rho*R. Here's why: The mass is (4/3)*pi*rho*R^3 (just the volume times the density) The field behaves as though all the mass is concentrated at the center, at on point, and the field strength goes as G*M/R^2 Plugging in the value for the mass, this is (4/3)*G*pi*(R^3/R^2) = (4/3)*G*pi*R > This is > because any spherical shell of constant density has no > net gravitational effect on an object within it, Right, which is why the field strength at any point _inside_ a uniformly dense sphere at a distance "Rc" from the center is the same as the field strength on the surface of an equally dense sphere of radius "Rc". Or, in other words, _inside_ the sphere, the field goes as (4/3)*G*pi*rho*R where R is the distance from the center of the sphere to the point where we're measuring the field (_not_ the distance to the surface of the sphere). Since the field points directly toward the center of the sphere, if we replace the distance to the center with the vector "[R]" which points from the center to the point where we're measuring the field, then the actual field at each point will be -(4/3)*G*pi*rho*[R] and I seriously wish I had overbars to make this look more readable. > so > you only need the mass of the spherical volume with > radius equal to your distance from the center of mass. > Thus I can measure the gravitational field strength > along a constant radius from the center of the large > sphere (R1 constant) but at different locations within > the volume of the small sphere (R2 variable) and > achieve different results. It seems that way, doesn't it? But keep in mind that R1 and R2 are vectors, so neither one is constant in this case -- R1 has constant _magnitude_ but its direction is varying. You need to draw a fairly careful picture here to get an idea of what's going on. Draw a circle around the big sphere's center, such that the circle passes through the small sphere's center. At the center of the small sphere, the gravity is "normal" for the big sphere -- the small sphere contributes nothing. As we move off along the circle, the small sphere starts to contribute something. But at the same time, the big sphere's _angle_ of pull changes. Initially, the contribution of the small sphere is (nearly) perpendicular to the big sphere's pull, and it just cancels the angle change in the big sphere's pull. As we get farther and farther from the little sphere's center, the small sphere's "push" is no longer perpendicular to the big sphere's "pull". It's actually contributing to the force along the line between their centers, at the same time that it's cancelling the pull perpendicular to that line. After thinking about it for a while I decided it at least _seemed_ possible, and I stopped looking for a flaw in the math... :-) > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 20:44:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q4UDJv001773; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:30:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q4HnIo026300; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:17:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:17:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <1C9EFD5C-F01C-4270-A090-C707405A8AE8@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-19-1027922251 From: Horace Heffner Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:15:12 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <9O1ZZB.A.laG.s1E2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --Apple-Mail-19-1027922251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The original message was received at Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:43 -0900 (AKST) ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 451 4.4.1 reply: read error from ultra6.eskimo.com. ... Deferred: Connection refused by ultra5.eskimo.com. Message could not be delivered for 12 hours Message will be deleted from queue Reporting-MTA: dns; eng-prv.mtaonline.net Arrival-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:43 -0900 (AKST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; ultra5.eskimo.com Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:51:32 -0900 (AKST) From: Horace Heffner Date: January 23, 2006 6:44:18 PM AKST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Trying to send this again: On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Time dilation is clearly real, then. I send a clock out to Pluto > and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is > slow. I do it again, and it's slower. Well the time difference is the result of a real effect. That effect is not necessarily time dilation, because time dilation (observed time differences) is at least in part due to retardation. > > Mass increase -- m ==> m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might > disagree. Yes, it seems that way to me. This effect can explain at least a portion of the "real" nature of the final time difference for the twins - depending on what kind of clock is used. If mass is used in the clock, then certainly real time differences can be expected. I am not sure there will be a real difference if the clocks used consist only of photons bouncing between mirrors. Which then brings up the "reality" of the Fitzgerald contraction. Is length contraction real? Certainly some of it is not real, because it is due at least in part to retardation. > I accelerate a clock to gamma=10, and let it collide with a clock > which is "stationary". The energy given up by the traveling clock > is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a very real > "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far larger > than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at > the speed at which it was traveling. > > I put a centrifuge into a (closed!!) box, and start it going. As > it spins up I weigh it. It gets heavier, which again involves > local measurement of a force. Once again, m ==> m0*gamma seems to > me to be quite "real". > > Length contraction is far more dubious. As far as I know there is > no way to observe it which doesn't involve making "simultaneous" > measurements at separate locations which opens us up to all kinds > of problems, though the "cracking spinning disk" experiment still > bothers me. I wonder if it is possible to make an accurate clock which doesn't depend on mass? > > Finally, just for fun, I put a resistor into a centrifuge, and spin > it up, and measure its resistance using a stationary meter....... > WTF?? Nothing like trying to iron out experimental artifacts! 8^) Horace Heffner --Apple-Mail-19-1027922251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
The original = message was received at Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:43 -0900 (AKST)


=A0=A0 ----- The following = addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

=A0=A0 ----- Transcript of = session follows -----
451 4.4.1 reply: read error = from ultra6.eskimo.com.
<vortex-l@eskimo.com>... = Deferred: Connection refused by ultra5.eskimo.com.
Message could not be delivered for 12 = hours
Message will be deleted from = queue
Reporting-MTA: dns; = eng-prv.mtaonline.net
Arrival-Date: = Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:46:43 -0900 (AKST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Action: failed
Status: = 4.4.7
Remote-MTA: DNS; = ultra5.eskimo.com
Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:51:32 -0900 = (AKST)

From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Date: January 23, 2006 6:44:18 PM = AKST
Subject: Re: The Horace = Hiatus


Trying = to send this again:
On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:56 AM, = Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:


=
Time dilation is clearly real, = then.=A0 I send a clock out = to Pluto and back via a fast rocket, and check its time, and now it is = slow.=A0 I do it again, and = it's slower.

Well the time difference is the = result of a real effect.=A0 = That effect is not necessarily time dilation, because time = dilation (observed time differences) is at least in part due to = retardation.

=
Mass increase -- m =3D=3D> = m0*gamma -- seems real too, though you might disagree.
=

Yes, it seems that way to me.=A0 This effect can explain at = least a portion of the "real" nature of the final time difference for = the twins - depending on what kind of clock is used.=A0 If mass is used in the clock, = then certainly real time differences can be expected. I am not sure = there will be a real difference if the clocks used consist only of = photons bouncing between mirrors.=A0= Which then brings up the "reality" of the Fitzgerald = contraction.=A0 Is length = contraction real?=A0 = Certainly some of it is not real, because it is due at least in = part to retardation.

=
I accelerate a clock to = gamma=3D10, and let it collide with a clock which is "stationary".=A0 The energy given up by the = traveling clock is consistent with its mass being m0*gamma; it makes a = very real "bang", which involves locally observed forces that are far = larger than those we would have observed had its mass been merely m0, at = the speed at which it was traveling.

I put a centrifuge into a = (closed!!) box, and start it going.=A0= As it spins up I weigh it.=A0= It gets heavier, which again involves local measurement of a = force.=A0 Once again, m = =3D=3D> m0*gamma seems to me to be quite "real".

Length = contraction is far more dubious.=A0 = As far as I know there is no way to observe it which doesn't = involve making "simultaneous" measurements at separate locations which = opens us up to all kinds of problems, though the "cracking spinning = disk" experiment still bothers me.

I wonder = if it is possible to make an accurate clock which doesn't depend on = mass?

=
Finally, just for fun, I put a = resistor into a centrifuge, and spin it up, and measure its resistance = using a stationary meter.......=A0 = WTF??

Nothing like trying to iron out = experimental artifacts!=A0 = 8^)

Horace Heffner



= --Apple-Mail-19-1027922251-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 21:44:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q5iBFt008581; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:44:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q5i8QG008560; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:44:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <00c301c621dd$f5b114f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> <00c301c621dd$f5b114f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <81CE36F0-978C-40A7-8861-8EF4E6C1E192@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:48:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know what I can do better to post on vortex. I guess I'll just keep sending them and not worry about duplicates. I've spent all the spare time I have anyway, so I think I'll just take a break a while. Here goes this one again. On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > >> A field in water at the cathode is not different from a field in >> water at the anode - except for the fact the anode field can be >> orders of magnitude more intense, and the water structure better >> > organized. > > > I think that it has to do with that first micron of interface - > only this time that interface would be in the liquid, not the > electrode metal. Perhaps a "colloid" is a better term than "liquid" > since the implication is quite different. A colloid would have > nanoparticles, most of which came off the anode originally - each > roughly spherical of perhaps 20-100 bound metal atoms, a slight > positive change, and acting as an "exciton". > > And I am a bit surprised that you are in apparent disagreement I am not in disagreement, but merely pointing out that based on the principle stated: "They could just as easily employ a liquid lattice as a metallic one...", the *anode* is the vicinity to engineer for effect. At any rate, I think data will soon determine if anything of use is happening at high voltage cell anodes. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 22:07:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q60Hc9017681; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:00:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q5uJLb015470; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:56:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:56:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c6223d$2f37e6e0$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7F00727315E53-A50-CB61@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:55:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > <><><><><><><> > > My, my, my. Have you posted this to the hydrino list yet? grin> Nah... Like the other kibitzers, I am awaiting Mills' next move - reported to be imminent ... ...methinks to appease his supporters, he has now put himself in the proverbial Zugswang, however. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 23:20:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q7KExJ023257; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:20:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q7HV4Z021632; Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:08:56 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: response to leaking pen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <-H9gWC.A.8RF.KeH2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I posted; And Leaking Pen responded what was the body? ive got the list on gmail, so ive got it all archived and searchable. Thanks Leaking. In late August I posted a message about LENR's in which I raised some questions about it applicability to energy generation and radionuclide remediation. I believe that I mentioned BLP too. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 01:15:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q9EpxZ022831; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:14:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q9Elsj022772; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:14:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7A5CBE0F-0885-4ACD-B2C0-DFE799ACA67D@mtaonline.net> From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: questions about Horacs's paper Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:12:14 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0Q9EhEe022716 Resent-Message-ID: <0rBSR.A.qjF.GMJ2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 25, 2006, at 10:03 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > What is the bend and symmetrical stretch frequencies of water? I > assume that the bend angle is the angle between the hydrogen atoms > and the oxygen, and that the stretch has to do with the length of > the H-O bond. The bend frequency is the frequency the water molecule resonates at when pushed or pulled apart like a wishbone. The symmetrical stretch is like the stretch you do when yo pull back a slingshot. > > What is negative resistance? is it the same as conductance or > suceptance? In real life it is negative *incremental* resistance - an incremental decrease in voltage results in an incremental increase in current. This can be used to generate an oscillation. This is all nicely described for the amateur on the web site I referenced: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/ > > The energetic free proton effects are happening in the blue-green > glow creating interphase. What is interphase? It is a transitional *volume* of electrolyte near the anode - about 10-20 molecules thick. This was described in detail in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf > > The zinc can be passivated in a weak electrolyte, what does > passivated mean? This was all described in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf Here it is again: PASSIVATION This conducting oxide layer is well known, though the reason it conducts is not conclusive. [3 ] The process of forming this layer, earlier called “conditioning”, is formally called passivation. Passivation of an oxide forming electrode occurs when a sufficient current density is passed for a sufficient time through the electrode when it is used as an anode. Either DC or AC can be used, provided the necessary current density is achieved. If insufficient voltage is used, then no oxide layer forms, and ordinary anode corrosion results. After a sufficient passivation time interval and current density, the oxide layer, though initially insulating, begins to be conductive. As the layer becomes conductive it begins to absorb incident photons, i.e. becomes black as opposed to reflective, at least in the case of Ni anodes. [4] When the oxide layer is conductive, the electrode is protected from corrosion, and is thus passivated. The oxide film which forms just prior to this is called a precursor or prepassive film. Passivation time is reduced by increasing the passivation voltage and thus current density. > > The black hole absorbing the energy of the reaction is very > interesting. I've heard this story before, IMHO, if you're > producing a reaction, and not detecting the energy, then you have a > problem, and you might as well drop what ever else you're doing and > figure it out. The part about the invisible photons interests me too. What invisible photons? Do you have a reference? I'll assume you are talking about the absorbed photon of a photon pair created by electron-hole annihilation. The photons go opposite directions. One goes through the transparent cover (e.g. electrolyte) and the other hits solid material and is absorbed. > Isn't that an oxymoron? Photons that are absorbed are then not visible. > How do these invisible photons figure into the missing energy? Which missing energy? The missing CF signature energy? They don't. The two aren't related. > > In table 5 of the Heisenberg Traps, oxygen stands out as having an > energy even higher than Al. Given the significance that you attach > to this energy, I'm wondering about the significance of this. Well I thought I made it crystal clear in: "Oxygen, best of all in the table, provides a prospective nucleus for interaction in the plasma-liquid environment of the anode glow." Oxygen is the most prominent heavy element in water. It has the highest projected temperature. This is *why* I put it in the table. Its hot and it is ubiquitous in the anode interphase. This is a no brainer. The only other element always present in water is hydrogen, and extracting uncertainty energy may mean interacting down at the quark level - which is not realistic or practical. Deuterons may be a possibility though. > > Given the necessity of electricity in power all of the LENR schemes > that I'm aware of,, I'm fascinated by your mention of using > semiconducting materials in the lattice. Actually it is the surface film that is semiconductive, or which provides a tunneling barrier. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 01:36:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0Q9aIR2002412; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:36:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0Q9aD6n002371; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:36:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:36:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2FB3535B-5461-4F5C-AE48-61B990D115A6@mtaonline.net> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: questions about Horacs's paper Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:33:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 25, 2006, at 10:03 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > What is the bend and symmetrical stretch frequencies of water? I > assume that the bend angle is the angle between the hydrogen atoms > and the oxygen, and that the stretch has to do with the length of > the H-O bond. Here is a nice visual reference: http://www.shodor.org/chemistry/watervibCS.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 02:36:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QAa0x6001995; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:36:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QAZwaT001943; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:35:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:35:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Nuclear remediation using passivated layer or interphase Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:32:30 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Iwamura et al found evidence of transmutations associated with a CaO phase change boundary in D2 loaded Pd. When operated in high voltage AC conditions a passivation layer deposited on a metal or alloy of a metal requiring nuclear remediation, my provide such remediation in a D2O electrolyte. The mechanism is similar, only the location of the active layer is simply moved to interface directly the electrolyte. The use of AC sustains the passivated layer in anode mode of the cycle while providing the transmuting configuration on/in the cathode part of the cycle. Alternatively, it may be possible to remediate elements, especially nonmetalic elements, directly in the electrolyte in the HV anode interphase. Just some more things for experimentation. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 04:41:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QCfU2B030863; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 04:41:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QCfTqU030853; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 04:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 04:41:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <43D8CF90.6EDE6786@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:33:04 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: response to leaking pen References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xmal" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xmal" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Thomas, Is the post one of the below? There is one referencing BLP. Jack Smith ------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:29:55 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Aluminium Battery Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:09:39 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Why are the oil companies making such huge profits Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:56 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: spiral periodic table Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:56 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: spiral periodic table Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:59:16 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: space elevator Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:45:30 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Space Elevator Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:44:28 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: vaporware batteries Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:23:07 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: d2fusion Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:31:33 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: map of the universe Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: secrets of sonoluminescence Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Cold Electricity Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:41:30 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Cold Fusion in Israel Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:31:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Cold Electricity Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:39:49 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Israeli research into Cold Fusion Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:06:29 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: OFF topic but important Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Sarfati's comment Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:34:19 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: OFF topic but important Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:26:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Beta-Atmosphere Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:45:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: BLP on the IOP website Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:45:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The Aluminium Battery Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:40:39 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: The Aluminium Battery Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:32:41 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Placebo effect Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:20:16 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The New Republic article Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:56:42 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: New Republic article From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 05:02:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QD1uIv011728; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:01:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QD1sgF011710; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:01:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:01:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c62278$bd03ca80$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Fw: (off topic) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:02:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C6224E.D2256F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C6224E.D2256F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Joseph L. Mendez Jr. Project Manager/ Estimator E.C. Bones Inc. Construction =20 =20 ----- In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, = this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not = funny, it's intended to get you thinking. (I sent it to everyone on my = list. Will you?)=20 Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane = Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" = (regarding Katrina)=20 Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She = said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for = years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of = our government and to get out of our lives.=20 And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How = can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we = demand He leave us alone?"=20 In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I = think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her = body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, = and we said OK.=20 Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible = says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor = as yourself. And we said OK.=20 Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they = misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we = might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We = said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.=20 Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they = don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill = strangers, their classmates, and themselves.=20 Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it = out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."=20 Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the = world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but = question what the Bible says=20 Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like = wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people = think twice about sharing.=20 Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through = cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and = workplace. =20 Are you laughing?=20 Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on = your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what = they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried = about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.=20 Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no = one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't = sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.=20 "Good friends are like stars.........You don't always see them, but you = know they are always there=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C6224E.D2256F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 
 

Joseph=20 L. Mendez Jr.

Project=20 Manager/ Estimator

E.C.=20 Bones Inc. Construction

 

 

----- = In=20 light=20 of=20 the many jokes we=20 send=20 to=20 one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not = intended to be=20 a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get = you=20 thinking.=20 (I=20 sent it to everyone on my list. Will you?)




Billy=20 Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson = asked her=20 "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding=20 Katrina)=20



Anne=20 Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I = believe=20 God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been = telling=20 God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get = out of=20 our lives.=20



And=20 being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can = we expect=20 God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us=20 alone?"=20



In=20 light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I = think it=20 started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found = recently)=20 complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said=20 OK.=20



Then=20 someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says = thou shalt=20 not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And = we said=20 OK.=20



Then=20 Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they = misbehave=20 because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage = their=20 self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert = should know=20 what he's talking about. And we said OK.=20



Now=20 we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they = don't know=20 right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, = their=20 classmates, and themselves.=20



Probably,=20 if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think = it has=20 a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."=20



Funny=20 how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's = going=20 to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what = the=20 Bible says=20



Funny=20 how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire = but when=20 you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about=20 sharing.=20



Funny=20 how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through = cyberspace, but=20 public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and=20 workplace.=20  =20



Are=20 you laughing?=20



Funny=20 how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your = address=20 list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think = of you=20 for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people = think=20 of us than what God thinks of us.=20



Pass=20 it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one = will know=20 you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and = complain=20 about what bad shape the world is in.=20



"Good=20 friends are like stars.........You don't always see them, but you know = they are=20 always there=20





------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C6224E.D2256F60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 05:16:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QDFw9h019378; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:15:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QDFtv7019336; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:15:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:15:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060126131526397.6100A1C002E2@mwinf3003.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:15:47 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:55 pm 25/01/2006 -0800, Jones wrote: > > ...methinks to appease his supporters, he has now put > himself in the proverbial Zugswang, however. Zugzwang. That's a useful word. I'll have to put it in my German box along with Schadenfreude and Gestalt. Oh! and by the way Jones, it has 2 zeds - or zees as you yanks call them - which always irritates me when I'm reading a Dr Seuss book to my grandchildren and I get to the line which doesn't rhyme with zed. fg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 06:33:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QEWWRe001443; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:32:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QEWTmc001418; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:32:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:32:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D8DAF2.7060108@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:21:38 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:22 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Thank you for the summary. I had one comment (really just one, this >> time!) >> >> Horace Heffner wrote: >> >>> Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. >> >> >> There's a semantic problem here. "An invariant" is a well-defined >> mathematical concept. However, it's just that -- a mathematical >> concept. Saying "this is an _invariant_" doesn't mean it's some >> simple physical property which always has the same value. >> > > Wheeler and Taylor say the mass of any isolated system is invariant. In > other words: > > m^2 = E^2 + p^2 > > in one frame then > > m^2 = (E')^2 - (p')^2 > > in another for that isolated subsystem. Right. I think that's similar to what I said. I was talking about a single body, but it's the same thing, really. If we put the whole system in a box, then the squared magnitude of the 4-momentum of the box is m^2 * gamma^2 * (v^2 - 1) which is, rearranging terms, (m^2 * gamma^2 * v^2) - (m^2 * gamma^2) or in more familiar terms, p^2 - E^2 But it also is equal to -m^2, since the gamma^2 and the (v^2-1) terms cancel. Either way it's a mathematical invariant. And the inner product of the 4-velocity of an observer with the 4-momentum of an isolated system is _another_ invariant, and it gives the relativistic mass of the system, which is more often referred to as the energy these days. > Problem is, no subsystem of > mass is isolated. Stuff comes in and out of the vacuum constantly. A > significant portion of the magnetic field of the proton comes from > strange quark pairs popping in and out of the vacuum, for example. > Acceleration affects how things pop in and out of the vacuum and how > long they stick around. > > >> It's easy to forget that relativity theory says _nothing_ about what >> is "real" and what is not. > > > Who's relativity? Certainly not mine! You make it sound like there > is only one version! 8^) Oh, I just meant the kind that Einstein worked on. It consists of a mathematical model, and a bunch of points of contact with reality, which are called "events". That theory can predict what measurements can be made by particular observers at particular "events" but what goes on between "events" is open to speculation, and the question of "why" anything happens is also left open. >> With all that said, when someone refers to the "invariant mass" they >> mean the rest mass. > > > Not Wheeler and Taylor. Really? Not everybody uses the term at all. But if they use it, _and_ they use it to refer to something else, that's a surprise. Try googling "invariant/mass" -- it's on an awful lot of websites and as far as I can tell it's used to mean the mass of an object in its own rest frame. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 06:38:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QEcQDR006439; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:38:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QEcNuq006399; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:38:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:37:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, No more confusing than our tiny towns of Fayette and surrounding counties in Texas. Walhalla is west of me within rock chunking distance but mostly English, not German. Behind me is Waldeck, thats German, Next is Nechanitz, the Czech side of near Polish, Rutersville was supposed to be a Baptist college. Weimar is a good German name for the Austrians that settled near, Dubina was and remains Czech . Praha was Czech but now German. New Ulm is a mix and Industry was the first German settlement in Texas, Cat Spring is German and Round Top has gone Houston chic. LaGrange was supposed to be French but is going Hispanic. The Afro side of the nearby old La Bahia Trail could care less who anybody was. So our culture may be confusing with Texan and several other languages spoken. We do have the best variety of sausages in the world which is the only important thing when you stop to think about it. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture > At 09:55 pm 25/01/2006 -0800, Jones wrote: >> > >> ...methinks to appease his supporters, he has now put >> himself in the proverbial Zugswang, however. > > > Zugzwang. That's a useful word. I'll have to put it in my German > box along with Schadenfreude and Gestalt. Oh! and by the way > Jones, it has 2 zeds - or zees as you yanks call them - which > always irritates me when I'm reading a Dr Seuss book to my > grandchildren and I get to the line which doesn't rhyme with zed. > > fg > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 06:40:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QEeLnH008087; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:40:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QEeJLT008059; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:40:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:40:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601261440.k0QEeDeE075532@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:40:12 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Fw: (off topic) - and discarded Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_bba2b5960f2fc5195f60248e891869b7" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <-z0x_.A.29B.T9N2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_bba2b5960f2fc5195f60248e891869b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why, such big letters you're using, Grandma! All the more to bludgeon you to death with my message, my little morsel! The message says at the end to pass if on if I believe it has any merit. It doesn't. I didn't. And FWIW, I do believe in a Power that is Greater than me. ...With apologies to some great atheists I've had the privilege of knowing. Regards, --- Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_bba2b5960f2fc5195f60248e891869b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why, such big letters you're using, Grandma!

All the more to bludgeon you to death with my message, my little morsel!
The message says at the end to pass if on if I believe it has any merit. It= doesn't. I didn't.

And FWIW, I do believe in a Power that is Greater than me.

...With apologies to some great atheists I've had the privilege of knowing.=

Regards,

---
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com --=_bba2b5960f2fc5195f60248e891869b7-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 06:58:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QEuaTB019455; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:56:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QEuZZM019424; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601261456.k0QEuPQl083306@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:56:25 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: A refreshing Change, article mentions CF favorably Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_23a45d9c4958497627b26adba2257507" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_23a45d9c4958497627b26adba2257507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A refreshing change. A favorable article. See: http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/01/25/66825 From: The Minnesota Daily by: Darren Benard A favorable depiction of CF, however brief it might be. We might want to complement the author's accuracy on the matter. The last part of his article: ********************************************************* Despite the passage of the much-touted 2005 Energy Policy Act, the situation in Iran shows just how hopelessly dependent the United States still is on foreign oil. The Bush administration could launch an urgent national mission to make the United States energy-independent by 2025 - go to www.ei2025.org to see how it can be done. The development of clean coal, cold fusion and other power-generating technologies could turn into expensive exports to foreign governments. And a cross-country system of bullet or maglev trains would create cheap, fast and safe transportation technologies for generations to come, not to mention drastically reduce fossil fuel emissions. In short, there are plenty of ambitious domestic projects the president could use to rekindle a sense of national unity and protect U.S. economic and technological superiority. If presented as a coherent set of policies designed to keep America relevant in the 21st century, the initiatives would do well to save the president's domestic legacy. The only real question is whether Bush would rather go down in history as a firefighter or an architect of America's future. ********************************************************* Darren Bernard welcomes comments at dbernard@mndaily.com. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_23a45d9c4958497627b26adba2257507 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A refreshing change. A favorable article.

See: http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/01/25/66825

From: The Minnesota Daily
by: Darren Benard

A favorable depiction of CF, however brief it might be. We might want to co= mplement the author's accuracy on the matter.


The last part of his article:

*********************************************************

Despite the passage of the much-touted 2005 Energy Policy Act, the situatio= n in Iran shows just how hopelessly dependent the United States still is on= foreign oil. The Bush administration could launch an urgent national missi= on to make the United States energy-independent by 2025 - go to www.ei2025.= org to see how it can be done. The development of clean coal, cold fusion a= nd other power-generating technologies could turn into expensive exports to= foreign governments. And a cross-country system of bullet or maglev trains= would create cheap, fast and safe transportation technologies for generati= ons to come, not to mention drastically reduce fossil fuel emissions.

In short, there are plenty of ambitious domestic projects the president cou= ld use to rekindle a sense of national unity and protect U.S. economic and = technological superiority.

If presented as a coherent set of policies designed to keep America relevan= t in the 21st century, the initiatives would do well to save the president'= s domestic legacy. The only real question is whether Bush would rather go d= own in history as a firefighter or an architect of America's future.

*********************************************************

Darren Bernard welcomes comments at dbernard@mndaily.com.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_23a45d9c4958497627b26adba2257507-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 07:25:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QFK568001902; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:20:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QFC4AK029147; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:12:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000201c6228a$d2196a30$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Russians to mine Helium 3 on moon Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:11:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6228A.CDC57960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6228A.CDC57960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russia_Plans_Mine_On_The_Moon_By_2020.h= tml ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6228A.CDC57960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russia_Plans_Mine_On_The_M= oon_By_2020.html
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C6228A.CDC57960-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 07:38:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QFcCgi015999; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:38:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QFcAX8015973; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:38:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126101132.03410f00@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:21:46 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: (off topic) In-Reply-To: <003601c62278$bd03ca80$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> References: <003601c62278$bd03ca80$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Revtec wrote: >Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when >they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped >and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). That is incorrect. His grandson committed suicide because he suffered from severe mental illness. Mental illness is not caused by parents who do not spank their children, although in some cases it is caused by parents who *do* spank or otherwise abuse their children. Also, Spock advocated, and practiced, discipline and structured child rearing. The notion that he favored allowing children to misbehave is absurd, as anyone who has read his books knows. The other assertions in this message that the world is going to hell in a handbasket -- that crime is increasing or people in the U.S. are becoming less religious -- have no basis in objectively measured fact. These are urban myths. I wish that people would become less religious, but the trend in the U.S. and in the Moslem countries is in the other direction. Since this is a science-based discussion group I wish that Revtec would do a little fact checking before posting messages -- even off topic ones -- that have gross factual errors. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 07:56:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QFtrUI028063; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:55:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QFtojW028038; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:55:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:55:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> Subject: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:55:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/65999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "RC Macaulay" > We do have the best variety of sausages in the world which is > the only important thing when you stop to think about it. Ha! Richard, Every town with a significant German-extracted population likes to brag about its sausages.... except, alas, nowadays ... in the Bay Area, the "Sausage King" saga is over and we are left with fewer good ones to choose from. But... Hey , if you really care about health, you wouldn't eat the damn things anyway. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10618237/ SAN FRANCISCO - Self-proclaimed "sausage king" Stuart Alexander died Tuesday at San Quentin Prison while on death row for killing three meat inspectors. You had to be here to understand that one. He had a "Falling Down" kind of day on the job. (probably from tasting tainted road-kill) There was a great show on the History Channel a few weeks ago called the "German Americans." Since I did the "John Prine number" on my boob-tube several years back, I was invited to watch it by some German neighbors. It is amazing that we don't speak the mother-tongue here in the States - since if you were to count the Scots and Irish separately from the English (and you damn well better) then the largest ethic population in the USA is German - not English. Almost as many here as over there, but the 'Schmidt's are often 'Smiths' and the 'Steins' are 'Stones,' etc. thanks to Ellis Island and old prejudices ! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 08:07:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QG7Rri001946; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:07:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QG7Ph8001925; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:07:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:07:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126110155.034b3470@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:06:54 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture In-Reply-To: <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Hagelstein is close to his German roots in many ways. For example, he does an uncanny imitation of Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was with him on a bus one day when he did the "I'll be back" routine. Several startled passengers jerked around too look at us. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 08:33:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QGUEQe016962; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:30:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QGUDmk016936; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:30:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:30:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008e01c62295$c0aad350$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.0.16.2.20060126110155.034b3470@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:29:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > I was with him on a bus one day when he did the "I'll be back" > routine. Several startled passengers jerked around too look at > us. Not to mention the poetic intent of that sound-byte WRT the whole field of LENR- i.e. in the context of "down but not out" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 08:51:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QGoFEE030430; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:50:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QGlsHs028727; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:47:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:47:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:47:38 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F0AF5998DEE3-A80-3ACC@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <000201c6228a$d2196a30$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <000201c6228a$d2196a30$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Russians to mine Helium 3 on moon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All the 3He in the universe won't help them if they can't squeeze it together. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer To: Vortex-L Sent: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:11:37 -0000 Subject: Russians to mine Helium 3 on moon http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russia_Plans_Mine_On_The_Moon_By_2020.h tml ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 08:55:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QGssOX002819; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:54:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QGspNp002789; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:54:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:54:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060126165443.DE8299200E@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:54:43 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > It is amazing that we don't speak the mother-tongue here in the > States - since if you were to count the Scots and Irish separately > from the English (and you damn well better) then the largest ethic > population in the USA is German - not English. Almost as many here > as over there, but the 'Schmidt's are often 'Smiths' and the > 'Steins' are 'Stones,' etc. thanks to Ellis Island and old > prejudices ! Not so amazing. WWI engendered so much anti-German feeling in both the U.S. and Britain that people in both countries anglicized their names and stopped speaking German even at home. For example, the British royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windsor. In my case, the Schulzes became the Fosters. Kind of strange, if you think about it, since Ben Franklin suggested that German become the official language of the United States and the U.S. and the rest of the world would have been much better off with no American participation in WWI. Just some irrelevant historical musings. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 09:06:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QH64jP012256; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:06:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QH5x6Z012183; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:05:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:05:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:05:50 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F0B1E4A29001-A80-3B7C@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Since I did the "John Prine number" on my boob-tube several years back, <><><><><><><> LOL! "boob-tube". "Well, I sat there at the table and I acted real naive For I knew that topless lady had something up her sleeve" ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 09:45:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QHiiTf008339; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:44:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QHifRg008294; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:44:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:44:28 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7F0B74A597759-A50-E7C0@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: PHEV Partners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Go sign their petition: http://www.pluginpartners.org/ You might mention Chevron's control of the NiMH technology in the comments section. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 10:00:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QI0h6M020320; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:00:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QI0d9W020253; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:00:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D90BCB.7090608@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:50:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: (off topic) References: <003601c62278$bd03ca80$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <7.0.0.16.2.20060126101132.03410f00@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126101132.03410f00@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Revtec wrote: > >> Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they >> misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we >> might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). > > > That is incorrect. His grandson committed suicide because he suffered > from severe mental illness. Mental illness is not caused by parents who > do not spank their children, although in some cases it is caused by > parents who *do* spank or otherwise abuse their children. Indeed. We're already pretty far off topic here; let's go a little farther. Check out http://nospank.net/ for a bit more on the consequences of spanking and abuse. It's a large site, with a lot of information, though it can be little hard to find stuff on it. Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein were abused as children. If we want more people like them, then child abuse is good. One could reasonably argue that the Holocaust would not have taken place had it not been for two generations of child abuse in Hitler's family. Alice Miller has written a fair amount on this general topic; one essay of hers can be found here: http://nospank.net/miller2.htm Spanking and whipping are profitable in the United States. Check out http://stoptherod.net/ for some info on the folks who make the tools to do it. Of course, fundamentalist Christians in this group may find the above sites offensive, since, while the assertion that "God is love" is something we teach to children, the "Christian" approach to child-rearing is all too often based on the book of Proverbs, or a few narrowly selected passages from the Pauline letters, rather than the words of Jesus. One of my favorite "amazing phrases" that comes from the milieu of "Christian parenting" is "Biblical spanking", it brings to mind such a remarkable image... "You behave yo'self, Joe, or I'll git the Bible an' whup you good with it!" > Also, Spock advocated, and practiced, discipline and structured child > rearing. The notion that he favored allowing children to misbehave is > absurd, as anyone who has read his books knows. > > The other assertions in this message that the world is going to hell in > a handbasket -- that crime is increasing or people in the U.S. are > becoming less religious -- have no basis in objectively measured fact. > These are urban myths. I wish that people would become less religious, > but the trend in the U.S. and in the Moslem countries is in the other > direction. > > Since this is a science-based discussion group I wish that Revtec would > do a little fact checking before posting messages -- even off topic ones > -- that have gross factual errors. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 10:11:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QIAJVp027407; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:10:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QHtJYJ015904; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:55:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:55:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0FB5E83A-A132-4495-82E0-08218A98B957@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: response to leaking pen Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:37:22 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <3MbJtC.A.Z4D.F0Q2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 25, 2006, at 10:08 PM, thomas malloy wrote: > I posted; > > And Leaking Pen responded > > > what was the body? ive got the list on gmail, so ive got it all > archived and searchable. > > Thanks Leaking. > > In late August I posted a message about LENR's in which I raised > some questions about it applicability to energy generation and > radionuclide remediation. I believe that I mentioned BLP too. On Aug 29, 2005, at 9:20 PM, thomas malloy wrote: > Jed posted on an article published in the New Republic putting down > cold fusion. The article is available by subscription only, however > he posted the following URL http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/ > common/story_page/0,5744,16414974%5E28737,00.html I pulled up the > article and I didn't see any mention of CF, > > Has anyone read the article? Did you read a review Jed? Maybe I'll > see if the library has NR. I noticed the email of editor@the NR. > His name is Peter Binart. He is a regular guest on the Hugh Hewitt > Show. If the article is as off base as Jed makes out, I'll mention > it to Hugh. It's like me writing an article on Constitutional Law > and making some outrageous, and false comments. I may be able to > get some publicity for the LENR site. > > I met Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty., yesterday at the Minnesota > State Fair. I mentioned my interest in the subject of alternative > energy sources. With regards to CF, I mentioned the missing energy, > and that we, believed that it was being carried off by neutrinos. I > told him, dude, where's my energy, which he found amusing. > > He recounted his visit to the neutrino detector built in an > underground iron mine in northern Minnesota. They fired neutrinos > from Chicago, and they showed up in the detector. > > I asked him if he would like to discuss the matter further, and he > gave me his card. The two things that I have in mind are steam > injection with ethanol fuels, and the nuclear battery. Both are > proven technologies. Minnesota is long on both corn and spent > reactor waste. I mentioned BLP, but added that it was proprietary. > If anyone has any suggestions, additions, comments, let me know. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 10:16:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QIFlaW031525; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:15:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QIFfna031465; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:15:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:15:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e101c622a4$71bab440$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7F0B1E4A29001-A80-3B7C@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Even further OT: Blow up your TV Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:15:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > Since I did the "John Prine number" on my boob-tube several > years back, > <><><><><><><> > LOL! "boob-tube". My! aren't you perceptive today... did you stay at Holiday Inn last night ? FWIW and... Since this is totally way OFF TOPIC anyway, and apropos of nothing really, other than how to improve your life immeasureably... here is the relevent poetry (or whatever it is) "Blow Up Your TV" aka "Rotten Peaches" by John Prine (definitely on that self-same road) She was a level headed dancer on the road to alchohol And I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal Well, she pressed her chest against me, about the time the juke box broke She give me a peck on the neck [sic] and these are the words she spoke Chorus Blow up your TV, throw away your paper Go to the country and build you a home Plant a little garden, eat a lotta peaches Try and find Jesus, on your own I sat there at the table and I acted real naive Cause I knew that topless lady, she had something up her sleve She danced around the room awhile and she did the hoochy-coo And sang a song all night long, telling me what to do Chorus Blow up your TV, throw away your paper Go to the country and build you a home... ... ad nauseum (at least when John Denver covers it). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 10:27:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QIQx4E008222; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:27:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QIQucT008174; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:26:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:26:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=T11T6sebL7/jpPX79XmU5M/YrajZbQipocqQwCcItyGu7TDxyQsaZHssdU/KM+DtYRL6R6+Mm3iFj73ip2GmD6k+QCT2aROHC+mShgEBQO1s/Zt1X1c1QfMq2yykXXkVxaGmvIYV3ROHIgiBNN+tgHcbSyCz6nfuml/V8QLulu8= ; Message-ID: <20060126182648.49591.qmail@web32214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:26:48 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Re The Horace Hiatus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <43D841C6.3050800@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Huh, You're right. Picturing it more clearly now, The vectors do always add up to equal the same as the pull at the center of the small sphere. So the g field is a constant inside a spherical hollow in a sphere with constant density. That being said, next time this comes up, you might want to summarize a little bit differently, because what threw me off was it appeared you were taking R1 and R2 to be constants, instead of taking the vector sum to be constant. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > Merlyn wrote: > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > > > The field at any point inside a uniform sphere of > > density > > rho is > > > > F = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*R > > > > where "R" is the _radius vector_ from the center > of > > the > > sphere to the point where we're finding the field. > > > > For the big sphere, let the radius vector be R1. > For > > the > > small (cut-out) sphere let the radius vector be > R2. > > (Note that they point from different origins, but > > that's > > OK, all we care about are the direction and > length.) > > Then the net field anywhere inside the small > (cut-out) > > sphere will be > > > > F(total) = -(4/3)*pi*G*rho*(R1 - R2) > > > > But (R1 - R2) is a _constant_, and is just the > vector > > from the center of the big sphere to the center of > the > > small sphere. > > > > So the force is also a constant, proportional to > the > > distance between the spheres' centers, pointing > along > > the > > line which connects the small sphere's center to > the > > big > > sphere's center. > > ----------------------------------- > > > > Not so. > > R1 and R2 are NOT the actual radii of the spheres, > but > > the radii to the point of measurement. > > Exactly. Outside the sphere, the field goes as > 1/R^2. > > Inside the sphere it goes as R. > > On the surface of a uniform sphere of radius R the > field strength is > (4/3)G*pi*rho*R. Here's why: > > The mass is (4/3)*pi*rho*R^3 (just the volume > times the density) > > The field behaves as though all the mass is > concentrated at the center, > at on point, and the field strength goes as > > G*M/R^2 > > Plugging in the value for the mass, this is > > (4/3)*G*pi*(R^3/R^2) = (4/3)*G*pi*R > > > This is > > because any spherical shell of constant density > has no > > net gravitational effect on an object within it, > > Right, which is why the field strength at any point > _inside_ a uniformly > dense sphere at a distance "Rc" from the center is > the same as the field > strength on the surface of an equally dense sphere > of radius "Rc". > > Or, in other words, _inside_ the sphere, the field > goes as > > (4/3)*G*pi*rho*R > > where R is the distance from the center of the > sphere to the point where > we're measuring the field (_not_ the distance to the > surface of the sphere). > > Since the field points directly toward the center of > the sphere, if we > replace the distance to the center with the vector > "[R]" which points > from the center to the point where we're measuring > the field, then the > actual field at each point will be > > -(4/3)*G*pi*rho*[R] > > and I seriously wish I had overbars to make this > look more readable. > > > so > > you only need the mass of the spherical volume > with > > radius equal to your distance from the center of > mass. > > Thus I can measure the gravitational field > strength > > along a constant radius from the center of the > large > > sphere (R1 constant) but at different locations > within > > the volume of the small sphere (R2 variable) and > > achieve different results. > > It seems that way, doesn't it? But keep in mind > that R1 and R2 are > vectors, so neither one is constant in this case -- > R1 has constant > _magnitude_ but its direction is varying. > > You need to draw a fairly careful picture here to > get an idea of what's > going on. > > Draw a circle around the big sphere's center, such > that the circle > passes through the small sphere's center. > > At the center of the small sphere, the gravity is > "normal" for the big > sphere -- the small sphere contributes nothing. > > As we move off along the circle, the small sphere > starts to contribute > something. But at the same time, the big sphere's > _angle_ of pull > changes. Initially, the contribution of the small > sphere is (nearly) > perpendicular to the big sphere's pull, and it just > cancels the angle > change in the big sphere's pull. > > As we get farther and farther from the little > sphere's center, the small > sphere's "push" is no longer perpendicular to the > big sphere's "pull". > It's actually contributing to the force along the > line between their > centers, at the same time that it's cancelling the > pull perpendicular to > that line. > > After thinking about it for a while I decided it at > least _seemed_ > possible, and I stopped looking for a flaw in the > math... :-) > > > > > Merlyn > > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 10:29:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QI3hqB022628; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:03:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QI3dMR022588; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:03:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:03:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fw: (off topic) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:11:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126101132.03410f00@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Writes: >Since this is a science-based discussion group I wish that Revtec >would do a little fact checking before posting messages -- even off >topic ones -- that have gross factual errors. Talk about gross factual errors! Jed, this list is _not_ a science based discussion list. I used to be under the same impression, until I tool the time to actually read Bill's mission statement. Here's the link, for your perusal. http://www.amasci.com/weird/vmore.html The document starts as so.. ************************************************************** To put it bluntly, Vortex-L is a forum for "true believers." ************************************************************** Regarding your comments about revtecs statement, consider this passage. *************************************************************** So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the disbelieving attitude of those who believe in the stereotypical "scientific method." *************************************************************** Nowhere in the document do I find language which clearly states that this is a science oriented discussion list. What I do find are specific passages such as **************************************************************** Vortex-L is for those who see great value in removing their usual mental filters by provisionally accepting the validity of "impossible" phenomena in order to test them. So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the disbelieving attitude of those who believe in the stereotypical "scientific method." While this does leave us open to the great personal embarrassment of falling for hoaxes and delusional thinking, we tolerate this problem in our quest to consider ideas and phenomena which would otherwise be rejected out of hand without a fair hearing. ****************************************************************** If I'm off base here, perhaps the moderator needs to clarify some things. But his writings here seem pretty clear to me. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 11:21:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QJKoXS008349; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:20:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QJKiZe008306; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:20:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:20:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:20:34 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F0C4B710D810-A80-4079@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060126131547.00a216d4@pop.freeserve.net> <001e01c62286$27e44070$d7027841@xptower> <000e01c62290$f57db890$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C7F0B1E4A29001-A80-3B7C@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <00e101c622a4$71bab440$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00e101c622a4$71bab440$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Even further OT: Blow up your TV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene My! aren't you perceptive today... did you stay at Holiday Inn last night ? <><><><><><><> "today"? Express, BTW. ;-) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 11:29:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QJTWWh013203; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:29:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QJTTAB013170; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:29:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:29:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <1ff.10fbf7dd.310a7be0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:24:16 EST Subject: Quotes From Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity & Water that rises uphill To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138303456" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138303456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quotes From Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity & Water that rises uphill "Every action is accomanied by an equivalent reaction and the effects of the latter are directly opposite to those of the former. Supposing that the bodies act upon the surrounding space causing curvature of the same, it appears to my simple mind that the curved spaces must react on the bodies and producing the opposite effects, straighten out the curves. Since action and reaction are co-existant it follows that the curvature of space is entirely impossible- however even if it existed it would not explain the motions of the bodies as observed. Only the existence of a field of force can account for them and its assumption dispenses with space curvature. Quoted From Pg 75 to 76, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" "In his article , Man's Greates Achievement, Tesla outlined his Dynamic Theory of Gravity by saying that the luminiferous ether fills all space. The ether is acted upon by a life-giving creative force and is thrown into infitesimal whirls (micro helicals) at near the speed of light, becomming ponderable matter. When the force subsides and motion ceases, matter reverts to ether (a form of atomic decay). Quoted from Pg 75, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" "Tesla Lecture prepared for Institute of Immigrant Welfare, May 12, 1938 dealt with dynamic theory of gravity. 1.Dynamic Theory of Gravity - which assumed a field of force which accounts for motions in bodies, assumption of this field of force dispenses with the concept of space curvature, (ala Einstein), the ether has an indespensable function in the phenomena, (of universal gravity, inertia, momentum, and movement of heavenly bodies, as well as all atomic and molecular matter. ) 2.Environmental Energy - the Discovery of a new physical Truth: there is no energy in matter other than that recieved from the environment. (Which goes against Einstens E=mc^2). The usual Tesla birthday announcement on his 79th birthday (1935), Tesla made a brief reference, to the theory saying it applies to molecules and atoms as well as to the largest heavenly bodies and to "...all matter in any phase in existence from its very formation to its ultimate disintegration. Quoted From Pg 74, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" "Modern theory about gravity suggests that when a heavey object moves it emits gravitation waves that radiate at the speed of light. 1980 -A study of energy loss in a double neutron star pulsar called PSR 1913 proved that gravity waves exist. Tesla's idea that gravity is a field effect is now taken more seriously. Quoted From Pg 76. The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com " "To Tesla socalled atomic energy was in fact the result of environmental energy emanating from the cosmos, and made known to us via radioactive matter- this matter had the peculiar property of resonating and reacting with ubiquitous cocmic radiation. ... Today we call this zero point radiation from higher frequencies to lower. This radiation is of such a high frequency that it normally passes through space, the earth, and our bodies withouth harm or incident, in constant equilibrium, because its short wavelengths do not normally react or resonate with the atoms of most matter. It is radioactive matter, according to Tesla, which has a peculiar atomic structure which reacts with this radiation to produce readioactivity. Atomic energy, to Tesla, comes from the ZPR , not atoms. ... The relativists, with whom Tesla vehemently disagreed, believe that naturally radioactive elements spontaneously lose mass in the process of such decay, so that the energy released as radioactivity, is equivalent to the lost mass according to Einstein's equation, E = mc^2. Quoted From Pg 88 to 89. The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" "Since electrical processes are reversable, Tesla's methode consisted of using Hall MHD methode to cause a flow of current between a stationary system (relative to Earth) and the ether - as if there were a dynamic system- since it mimicked the currents of a moving system, and created a disturbance in the ether which could only be rectified by movment of the system. Once the current commenced to flow, the mangetic fields thus created, imparted the rotary forces which created the microhelical tubes of force drilled thier way around the irrotatoinal ether cores, and synthesized the momentum which propelled the system through the ether. Quoted From Pg 61, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It By William Lyne" "Those imbued with relativist theory often refer to pure energy in some form but there is not such thing, since energy is an abstract ability, which is always in the future. Quoted From Pg. 68, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It By William Lyne" "If the term energy is only a convenient abstraction the it does not exist in physical form and really describes the potential to perform work as a by-product of matter and electromagnetic in perpetual motion, some of the force of which has been diverted through a path where it performs the desired work, as it goes on its merry way through the universe. Quoted From Pg. 68, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It By William Lyne" "Every change of form of either matter or radiation involves the work which induces the change or the work which is induced by the change. Without work there is not change, but all work is ultimately the product of the universe in perpetual motion, self sustaining motion, as a rule and not an exception. Quoted >From Pg 68, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It By William Lyne" "Subquantum kinetics - gravity potential can adopt two polarities, instead of one. Not only can gravity field exists in the form of a matter -attracting potantial well, as standard physics teaches, but it can also exist in the form of a matter repelling gravity potential hill. These gravity polarities should be directly matched with electrical polarity, positively charge particles such as protons generating gravity wells, and negatively charged particles such as electrons generating gravity hills. Electron produces a matter repelling gravity field. Electrical neutral matter remains gravitationally attractive becuase of the proton's 'G-well marginally dominates the electrons G-hill. Subquantum kinetics predicts that the negative ion cloud behind Brown's disc should form a matter repelling gravity hill, while the positive ion clould ahead of the disc should form a matter attracting gravity well. As increasing voltage is applied to the disc, the gravity potential hill and well become increasing prominent and the gravity potential gradient between them increasing steep. Since gravity force is known to increase in accordance with the steepness of a such a gravity potential slope, increased voltage would induce an increasingly strong gravity force on the disc and would act in the direction of the positive ion cloud. The disc would behave as if it was being tugged by a very strong graviational field emmenating from an invisible planet sizec mass positioned behind its positive pole. Quoted From Pg. 80 to 81, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" " The B2 Strealth Bomber - Black Projects Research Since 1954 uses eectrogravatics - an exotic auxiliary mode of propoulsioun - Positive ions emitted from its wing leading edge would produce a positively charged parabolic ion sheath ahead of the craft while negative ions injected into its exhaust stream would set up a trailing negative space charge with a potential difference in excess of 15 millioin volts. According to Tesla and Townsend Brown such a differential space charge would set up an artificial gravity field that would induce a reactionaless force on the aircraft in the direction of the positive pole. Quoted from Pg 84, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com" Since gravity is compressed magnetism, then by changing the polarity of the magnetism as stated in the precending quote above in subquantum kinetics, water can be made to flow uphill rather than down hill, so that a magnetic pump will simply pump water uphill by simply changing the mangetic polarity of the water as is claimed in the pdf document at the link http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/master.pdf under the Magnetic Water Pump Pg. 30 article. -------------------------------1138303456 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quotes From Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity & Water t= hat rises uphill

"Every action is accomanied by an equivalent reaction and the effec= ts of the latter are directly opposite to those of the former. Supposing tha= t the bodies act upon the surrounding space causing curvature of the same, i= t appears to my simple mind that the curved spaces must react on the bodies=20= and producing the opposite effects, straighten out the curves. Since action=20= and reaction are co-existant it follows that the curvature of space is entir= ely impossible- however even if it existed it would not explain the motions=20= of the bodies as observed.  Only the existence of a field of force can=20= account for them and its assumption dispenses with space curvature. = Quoted From Pg 75 to 76, The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrail= s and the Secret of Alternative 4  Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins con= spiracyjournal.com"
 
"In his article , Man's Greates Achievement, Tesla outlined his Dynamic= Theory of Gravity by saying that the luminiferous ether fills all space.&nb= sp; The ether is acted upon by a life-giving creative force and is thrown in= to infitesimal whirls (micro helicals) at near the speed of light, becomming= ponderable matter.  When the force subsides and motion ceases, matter=20= reverts to ether (a form of atomic decay). Quoted from Pg 75, The Lo= st Journals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative= 4  Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"Tesla Lecture prepared for Institute of Immigrant Welfare, May 12, 193= 8 dealt with dynamic theory of gravity.
 
1.Dynamic Theory of Gravity - which assumed a field of force which acco= unts for motions in bodies, assumption of this field of force dispenses with= the concept of space curvature, (ala Einstein), the ether has an indespensa= ble function in the phenomena, (of universal gravity, inertia, momentum, and= movement of heavenly bodies, as well as all atomic and molecular matter. )<= /DIV>
 
2.Environmental Energy - the Discovery of a new physical Truth: there i= s no energy in matter other than that recieved from the environment. (Which=20= goes against Einstens E=3Dmc^2).  The usual Tesla birthday announcement= on his 79th birthday (1935), Tesla made a brief reference, to the theory sa= ying it applies to molecules and atoms as well as to the largest heavenly bo= dies and to "...all matter in any phase in existence from its very formation= to its ultimate disintegration. Quoted From Pg 74, The Lost Journal= s of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4  T= im Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"Modern theory about gravity suggests that when a heavey object moves i= t emits gravitation waves that radiate at the speed of light.  1980 -A=20= study of energy loss in a double neutron star pulsar called PSR 1913 proved=20= that gravity waves exist. Tesla's idea that gravity is a field effect is now= taken more seriously. Quoted From  Pg 76. The Lost Journals of= Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4  Tim S= wartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com "
 
"To Tesla socalled atomic energy was in fact the result of environmenta= l energy emanating from the cosmos, and made known to us via radioactive mat= ter- this matter had the peculiar property of resonating and reacting with u= biquitous cocmic radiation. ... Today we call this zero point radiation from= higher frequencies to lower.  This radiation is of such a high frequen= cy that it normally passes through space, the earth, and our bodies withouth= harm or incident, in constant equilibrium, because its short wavelengths do= not normally react or resonate with the atoms of most matter.  It is r= adioactive matter, according to Tesla, which has a peculiar atomic structure= which reacts with this radiation to produce readioactivity. Atomic energy,=20= to Tesla,  comes from the ZPR , not atoms.  ... The relativists, w= ith whom Tesla vehemently disagreed, believe that naturally radioactive elem= ents spontaneously lose mass in the process of such decay, so that the energ= y released as radioactivity, is equivalent to the lost mass according to Ein= stein's equation, E =3D mc^2. Quoted From Pg 88 to 89. The Lost Jour= nals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4 = ; Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"Since electrical processes are reversable, Tesla's methode consisted o= f using Hall MHD methode to cause a flow of current between a stationary sys= tem (relative to Earth) and the ether - as if there were a dynamic system- s= ince it mimicked the currents of a moving system, and created a disturbance=20= in the ether  which could only be rectified by movment of the system.&n= bsp; Once the current commenced to flow, the mangetic fields thus created, i= mparted the rotary forces which created the microhelical tubes of force dril= led thier way around the irrotatoinal ether cores, and synthesized the momen= tum which propelled the system through the ether.  Quoted From=20= Pg 61,
Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and th= e Conspiracy to Conceal It  By William Lyne"
 
"Those imbued with relativist theory often refer to pure energy in some= form but there is not such thing, since energy is an abstract ability, whic= h is always in the future. Quoted From Pg. 68, Occult Ether Physics=20= Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It = By William Lyne"
 
"If the term energy is only a convenient abstraction the it does not ex= ist in physical form and really describes the potential to perform work as a= by-product of matter and electromagnetic in perpetual motion, some of the f= orce of which has been diverted through a path where it performs the desired= work, as it goes on its merry way through the universe.  Quote= d From Pg. 68, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Space Propulsion System an= d the Conspiracy to Conceal It  By William Lyne"
 

"Every change of form of either matter or radiation involves the wo= rk which induces the change or the work which is induced by the change. With= out work there is not change, but all work is ultimately the product of the=20= universe in perpetual motion, self sustaining motion, as a rule and not an e= xception. Quoted From Pg 68, Occult Ether Physics Teslas Hidden Spac= e Propulsion System and the Conspiracy to Conceal It  By William Lyne"<= /STRONG>
 

"Subquantum kinetics - gravity potential can adopt two polarities,=20= instead of one.  Not only can gravity field exists in the form of a mat= ter -attracting potantial well, as standard physics teaches, but it can also= exist in the form of a matter repelling gravity potential hill.  These= gravity polarities should be directly matched with electrical polarity, pos= itively charge particles such as protons generating gravity wells, and negat= ively charged particles such as electrons generating gravity hills.  El= ectron produces a matter repelling gravity field.  Electrical neutral m= atter remains gravitationally attractive becuase of the proton's 'G-well mar= ginally dominates the electrons G-hill. Subquantum kinetics predicts that th= e negative ion cloud behind  Brown's disc should form a matter repellin= g gravity hill, while the positive ion clould ahead of the disc should form=20= a matter attracting gravity well. As increasing voltage is applied to the di= sc, the gravity potential hill and well become increasing prominent and the=20= gravity potential gradient between them increasing steep.  Since gravit= y force is known to increase in accordance with the steepness of a such a gr= avity potential slope, increased voltage would induce an increasingly strong= gravity force on the disc and would act in the direction of the positive io= n cloud.  The disc would behave as if it was being tugged by a very str= ong graviational field emmenating from an invisible planet sizec mass positi= oned behind its positive pole. Quoted From Pg. 80 to 81, The Lost Jo= urnals of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4&nb= sp; Tim Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com"
 

" The B2 Strealth Bomber - Black Projects Research Since 1954 uses=20= eectrogravatics - an exotic auxiliary mode of propoulsioun - Positive ions e= mitted from its wing leading edge would produce a positively charged parabol= ic ion sheath ahead of the craft while negative ions injected into its exhau= st stream would set up a trailing negative space charge with a potential dif= ference in excess of 15 millioin volts.  According to Tesla and Townsen= d Brown such a differential space charge would set up an artificial gravity=20= field that would induce a reactionaless force on the aircraft in the directi= on of the positive pole.  Quoted from Pg 84, The Lost Journals=20= of Nikola Tesla Harrp-- Chemtrails and the Secret of Alternative 4  Tim= Swartz Global Communicatoins conspiracyjournal.com"
 
S= ince gravity is compressed magnetism, then by changing the polarity of the m= agnetism as stated in the precending quote above in subquantum kinetics, wat= er can be made to flow uphill rather than down hill, so that a magnetic pump= will simply pump water uphill by simply changing the mangetic polarity of t= he water as is claimed in the pdf document at the link http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/master.pdf under the Magnetic Wa= ter Pump Pg. 30 article.
-------------------------------1138303456-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 11:30:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QJU4sD013680; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:30:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QJPwKf011150; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:25:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:25:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126142421.034d7468@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:25:32 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A refreshing Change, article mentions CF favorably In-Reply-To: <200601261456.k0QEuPQl083306@mail2.mx.voyager.net> References: <200601261456.k0QEuPQl083306@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I contacted the author to say thanks. Here is an interesting response. I wonder who those professors are? Hi Jed, Thanks for your letter; I appreciate all the links. I was unaware of the storm of controversy surrounding cold fusion. The idea has always been represented positively by my chemistry and physics professors. Keep fighting the good fight with Time. Journalists tend to be hopelessly ignorant of two subjects: physics/chemistry and economics. They also love debate, so why the magazine would be so hesitant to provide another look at cold fusion is beyond me. Time seems to be a troubled publication. Again, thanks for the email! Best, Darren Bernard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 11:52:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QJo9xD025571; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:52:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QJcuKr018578; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:38:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:38:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:36:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: (off topic) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps Vortex-L is a formative-science based discussion group. ;-) Harry google --> define: formative *Research done to help create or improve a process or product. Contrasts with summative and process evaluation. www.audiencedialogue.org/gloss-eval.html *susceptible to alteration by development and experience; "formative years" *forming or capable of forming or molding or fashioning; "a formative influence"; "a formative experience" wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Keith Nagel wrote: > Jed Writes: >> Since this is a science-based discussion group I wish that Revtec >> would do a little fact checking before posting messages -- even off >> topic ones -- that have gross factual errors. > > Talk about gross factual errors! Jed, this list is _not_ a science > based discussion list. I used to be under the same impression, until > I tool the time to actually read Bill's mission statement. Here's > the link, for your perusal. > > http://www.amasci.com/weird/vmore.html > > The document starts as so.. > > ************************************************************** > To put it bluntly, Vortex-L is a forum for "true believers." > ************************************************************** > > Regarding your comments about revtecs statement, consider this passage. > > *************************************************************** > So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the disbelieving attitude of > those who believe in the stereotypical "scientific method." > *************************************************************** > > Nowhere in the document do I find language which clearly states > that this is a science oriented discussion list. What I do find > are specific passages such as > > **************************************************************** > Vortex-L is for those who see great value in removing their usual mental > filters by provisionally accepting the validity of "impossible" phenomena > in order to test them. > > So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the disbelieving attitude of > those who believe in the stereotypical "scientific method." While this > does leave us open to the great personal embarrassment of falling for > hoaxes and delusional thinking, we tolerate this problem in our quest to > consider ideas and phenomena which would otherwise be rejected out of hand > without a fair hearing. > ****************************************************************** > > If I'm off base here, perhaps the moderator needs to clarify some things. > But his writings here seem pretty clear to me. > > K. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 12:16:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QK0Lio001148; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:01:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QJuKKS030542; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:56:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:56:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <258.5c574fd.310a7bda@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:24:10 EST Subject: OT: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138303450" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-AOL-IP: 172.18.157.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138303450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quotes below from Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com "Beam Weapons and the New World Order. 1990 to 1992 , Sandista National Labratories Project Aries, the Advanced Research Electromagnetic Pulse Simulator Site, where a two block long device was built for the Defense Nuclear Agency By Edgerton, Germhuasen, & Greer (EG &G). The Emp weapon consists of 1 1/2 block-long barrel horizontially supported on a wooden (nonconductive tressle) 25 feet high, connected to a two -story tower building, connected in turn to an immense electrical aparatus with huge arms and massive connecting cables that look like a giant Van de Graf generator. ...Using fusion power and engineered to 100 trillion volt bursts, it could arguably overpower even the most exotic extraterestrial UFO technology. Quoted from Pg 71, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "1993 - Russian Technology- A plasmoid is an extremely high-energy concentrated force field that can tear anything apart. This increadible system directs two very powerfull energy beams: one consists of electromagnetic energy in the microwave range, the other consists of intense laser energy. These beams converge in space at a designated target - something like a minature hydrogen bomp inside the super dome. Quoted from Pg 71-72, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "A high frequency laser gun pulsating 10 jewels of beam power 100 times per second will incinerate a human eye, which uses a compact solid-state power generator. Quoted From Pg. 72-73 Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "Mazer - Low Power Microwave directed energy weapons capable of cuasing the projection of auditory effects (hearing voices or subliminal suggestion) into the occipital cortex. Very low frequency VLF sound and ulstrasonics - pulses of 7-12 Hz are bounced off the 8 Hz ionospheric envelope around the Earth. - Many Federal Agencies(FBI,NSA,NRO, CIA, Army Intelligence, Navy Intelligence, Department of Energy, Defense Investigative Services, DIA, Justice Department, Department of Treasury, BATF, and others, and the Secret UN(NWO) Government use psychotronics, masers, nonlethal weapons, and beam weapon technologies. Quoted from Pg 87 Quoted From Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "By 1960's remote control of brain was well underway of being realized. RHIC-EDOM (Radio-Hypnotic Intra-Cerebral Control-Electronic Dissolution of Memory). (Cyborgs) - Altered and controlled humans - which were used to assinate JFK. Quoted From Pg 97, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com." "All major desicions are made by the military, and NSA and the CIA is just a figurehead and scapegoat. There is a group of about 18 or 20 people running this country. They have not been elected. The elected people are only figureheads for these guys who have a lot more power than the President. Quoted From Pg 102, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com." " -------------------------------1138303450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quotes below from Incredible Technologies of the New World Orde= r UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Commu= nications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com
 
"Beam Weapons and the New World Order.
1990 to 1992 , Sandista Natio= nal Labratories
 
Project Aries, the Advanced Research Electromagnetic Pulse Simulator Si= te, where a two block long device was built for the Defense Nuclear Agency B= y Edgerton, Germhuasen, & Greer (EG &G).  The Emp weapon consis= ts of 1 1/2 block-long barrel horizontially supported on a wooden (nonconduc= tive tressle) 25 feet high, connected to a two -story tower building, connec= ted in turn to an immense electrical aparatus with huge arms and massive con= necting cables that look like a giant Van de Graf generator.  ...Using=20= fusion power and engineered to 100 trillion volt bursts, it could arguably o= verpower even the most exotic extraterestrial UFO technology. Quoted= from Pg 71, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area= 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brun= swick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"1993 - Russian Technology- A plasmoid is an extremely  high-energ= y concentrated force field that can tear anything apart. This increadible sy= stem directs two very powerfull energy beams: one consists of electromagneti= c energy in the microwave range, the other consists of intense laser energy.= These beams converge in space at a designated target - something like a min= ature hydrogen bomp inside the super dome. Quoted from Pg 71-72, Inc= redible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander= X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspi= racyjournal.com"
 
"A high frequency laser gun pulsating 10 jewels of beam power 100 times= per second will incinerate a human eye, which uses a compact solid-state po= wer generator.  Quoted From Pg. 72-73 Incredible Technologies o= f the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions= Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"Mazer - Low Power Microwave directed energy weapons capable of cuasing= the projection of auditory effects (hearing voices or subliminal suggestion= ) into the occipital cortex.  Very low frequency VLF sound and ulstraso= nics - pulses of 7-12 Hz are bounced off the 8 Hz ionospheric envelope aroun= d the Earth. - Many Federal Agencies(FBI,NSA,NRO, CIA, Army Intelligence, Na= vy Intelligence, Department of Energy, Defense Investigative Services, DIA,=20= Justice Department, Department of Treasury, BATF, and others, and the Secret= UN(NWO) Government use psychotronics, masers, nonlethal weapons, and beam w= eapon technologies. Quoted from  Pg 87 Quoted From Incredible T= echnologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelar= d Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjourn= al.com"
 
"By 1960's remote control of brain was well underway of being realized.= RHIC-EDOM (Radio-Hypnotic Intra-Cerebral Control-Electronic Dissolution of=20= Memory). (Cyborgs) - Altered and controlled humans - which were used to assi= nate JFK. Quoted From Pg 97, Incredible Technologies of the New Worl= d Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global= Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com."
 
"All major desicions are made by the military, and NSA and the CIA is j= ust a figurehead and scapegoat.
There is a group of about 18 or 20 people= running this country. They have not been elected. The elected people are on= ly figureheads for these guys who have a lot more power than the President.=20= Quoted From   Pg 102, Incredible Technologies of the New W= orld Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Glo= bal Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com."
"
 
-------------------------------1138303450-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 12:36:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QKaNBc025368; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:36:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QKPE53017815; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:25:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126151435.034d7468@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:24:50 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Fw: (off topic) In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126101132.03410f00@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Talk about gross factual errors! Jed, this list is _not_ a science >based discussion list. There is a WORLD of difference between suspending disbelief and ignoring facts. I am always ready to "consider ideas and phenomena," but that is not the same as pretending that Benjamin Spock said things he did not say. "Suspending disbelief" would include entertaining the notion that spanking is actually good for children. That is plausible. It would not include inventing statistics to show that crime is increasing when it is actually decreasing. >If I'm off base here . . . Way off base. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 12:42:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QKaNBe025368; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:36:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QKKhC6015261; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:20:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c622b5$f279c790$f6027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <258.5c574fd.310a7bda@aol.com> Subject: Re: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:20:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C62283.A75D5650" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.1 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_22,J_CHICKENPOX_83,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4WpPFB.A.LuD.Y8S2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C62283.A75D5650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fortunately, as demonstrated by the response by all areas of government = to hurricane Katrina, we are protected from the socalled government = intelligencia and their band of conspiracy buffs. The Second Baptist = Church of Houston had the only organized response team on the ground = ready to go after Katrina and Rita.. FEMA et.al. did what it was = designed to do.. make excuses and point fingers. Relax, we are safe. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ThomasClark123@aol.com=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: OT: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's Quotes below from Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's = Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global = Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com "Beam Weapons and the New World Order. 1990 to 1992 , Sandista National Labratories Project Aries, the Advanced Research Electromagnetic Pulse Simulator = Site, where a two block long device was built for the Defense Nuclear = Agency By Edgerton, Germhuasen, & Greer (EG &G). The Emp weapon = consists of 1 1/2 block-long barrel horizontially supported on a wooden = (nonconductive tressle) 25 feet high, connected to a two -story tower = building, connected in turn to an immense electrical aparatus with huge = arms and massive connecting cables that look like a giant Van de Graf = generator. ...Using fusion power and engineered to 100 trillion volt = bursts, it could arguably overpower even the most exotic extraterestrial = UFO technology. Quoted from Pg 71, Incredible Technologies of the New = World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. = , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "1993 - Russian Technology- A plasmoid is an extremely high-energy = concentrated force field that can tear anything apart. This increadible = system directs two very powerfull energy beams: one consists of = electromagnetic energy in the microwave range, the other consists of = intense laser energy. These beams converge in space at a designated = target - something like a minature hydrogen bomp inside the super dome. = Quoted from Pg 71-72, Incredible Technologies of the New World Order = UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global = Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "A high frequency laser gun pulsating 10 jewels of beam power 100 = times per second will incinerate a human eye, which uses a compact = solid-state power generator. Quoted From Pg. 72-73 Incredible = Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X = Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, = conspiracyjournal.com" "Mazer - Low Power Microwave directed energy weapons capable of = cuasing the projection of auditory effects (hearing voices or subliminal = suggestion) into the occipital cortex. Very low frequency VLF sound and = ulstrasonics - pulses of 7-12 Hz are bounced off the 8 Hz ionospheric = envelope around the Earth. - Many Federal Agencies(FBI,NSA,NRO, CIA, = Army Intelligence, Navy Intelligence, Department of Energy, Defense = Investigative Services, DIA, Justice Department, Department of Treasury, = BATF, and others, and the Secret UN(NWO) Government use psychotronics, = masers, nonlethal weapons, and beam weapon technologies. Quoted from Pg = 87 Quoted From Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's = Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global = Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" "By 1960's remote control of brain was well underway of being = realized. RHIC-EDOM (Radio-Hypnotic Intra-Cerebral Control-Electronic = Dissolution of Memory). (Cyborgs) - Altered and controlled humans - = which were used to assinate JFK. Quoted From Pg 97, Incredible = Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X = Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, = conspiracyjournal.com." "All major desicions are made by the military, and NSA and the CIA is = just a figurehead and scapegoat. There is a group of about 18 or 20 people running this country. They = have not been elected. The elected people are only figureheads for these = guys who have a lot more power than the President. Quoted From Pg 102, = Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by = Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New = Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com." " ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C62283.A75D5650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fortunately, as demonstrated by the response = by all=20 areas of government to hurricane Katrina, we are protected from the = socalled=20 government intelligencia and their band of conspiracy buffs. The Second = Baptist=20 Church of Houston had the only organized response team on the ground = ready to go=20 after Katrina and Rita.. FEMA et.al. did what it was designed to do.. = make=20 excuses and point fingers.
Relax, we are safe.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ThomasClark123@aol.com =
Sent: Thursday, January 26, = 2006 1:24=20 PM
Subject: OT: Incredible = Technologies of=20 the New World Order & UFO's

Quotes below from Incredible Technologies of the New = World Order=20 UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global=20 Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com
 
"Beam Weapons and the New World Order.
1990 to 1992 , Sandista = National Labratories
 
Project Aries, the Advanced Research Electromagnetic Pulse = Simulator=20 Site, where a two block long device was built for the Defense Nuclear = Agency=20 By Edgerton, Germhuasen, & Greer (EG &G).  The Emp weapon = consists of 1 1/2 block-long barrel horizontially supported on a = wooden=20 (nonconductive tressle) 25 feet high, connected to a two -story tower=20 building, connected in turn to an immense electrical aparatus with = huge arms=20 and massive connecting cables that look like a giant Van de Graf=20 generator.  ...Using fusion power and engineered to 100 trillion = volt=20 bursts, it could arguably overpower even the most exotic = extraterestrial UFO=20 technology. Quoted from Pg 71, Incredible Technologies of the = New=20 World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions = Inc. ,=20 Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, = conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"1993 - Russian Technology- A plasmoid is an extremely  = high-energy=20 concentrated force field that can tear anything apart. This = increadible system=20 directs two very powerfull energy beams: one consists of = electromagnetic=20 energy in the microwave range, the other consists of intense laser = energy.=20 These beams converge in space at a designated target - something like = a=20 minature hydrogen bomp inside the super dome. Quoted from Pg = 71-72,=20 Incredible Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by=20 Commander X Abelard Productions Inc. , Global Communications New = Brunswick NJ,=20 conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"A high frequency laser gun pulsating 10 jewels of beam power 100 = times=20 per second will incinerate a human eye, which uses a compact = solid-state power=20 generator.  Quoted From Pg. 72-73 Incredible Technologies = of the=20 New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions = Inc. ,=20 Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, = conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"Mazer - Low Power Microwave directed energy weapons capable of = cuasing=20 the projection of auditory effects (hearing voices or subliminal = suggestion)=20 into the occipital cortex.  Very low frequency VLF sound and = ulstrasonics=20 - pulses of 7-12 Hz are bounced off the 8 Hz ionospheric envelope = around the=20 Earth. - Many Federal Agencies(FBI,NSA,NRO, CIA, Army Intelligence, = Navy=20 Intelligence, Department of Energy, Defense Investigative Services, = DIA,=20 Justice Department, Department of Treasury, BATF, and others, and the = Secret=20 UN(NWO) Government use psychotronics, masers, nonlethal weapons, and = beam=20 weapon technologies. Quoted from  Pg 87 Quoted From = Incredible=20 Technologies of the New World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X = Abelard=20 Productions Inc. , Global Communications New Brunswick NJ,=20 conspiracyjournal.com"
 
"By 1960's remote control of brain was well underway of being = realized.=20 RHIC-EDOM (Radio-Hypnotic Intra-Cerebral Control-Electronic = Dissolution of=20 Memory). (Cyborgs) - Altered and controlled humans - which were used = to=20 assinate JFK. Quoted From Pg 97, Incredible Technologies of = the New=20 World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions = Inc. ,=20 Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, = conspiracyjournal.com."
 
"All major desicions are made by the military, and NSA and the = CIA is=20 just a figurehead and scapegoat.
There is a group of about 18 or 20 = people=20 running this country. They have not been elected. The elected people = are only=20 figureheads for these guys who have a lot more power than the = President.=20 Quoted From   Pg 102, Incredible Technologies of the = New=20 World Order UFO's Tesla Area 51 by Commander X Abelard Productions = Inc. ,=20 Global Communications New Brunswick NJ,=20 conspiracyjournal.com."
"
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C62283.A75D5650-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 12:50:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QKerrs028534; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:40:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QKemJ8028484; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:40:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:40:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:38:06 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0QKegGn028386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2 = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. The gravicurrent is i_g_earth = (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s. Note that i in the units here is the imaginary number (-1)^ (1/2). The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON MAGNET IN UNIFORM FIELD A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q for 90 deg precession: Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_earth = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_earth = 3.40x10^21 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg angle of precession. Knowing Q_earth = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q * sin(23.45 deg.) = Q * 0.398 Q_earth = (3.40x10^21 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 * K * sin(23.45 deg.) K_ambient = Q_g/(mu_g * mu_g_0 * 0.398) K_ambient = i (1.353x10^21 N m) /((5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s) * (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)*0.398) K_ambient = i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k_earth: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s) SOME CONSEQUENCES Given EM Lorentz: F = q (v x B) We have the gK equivalent: F_g = m (v x mu_0 * K) Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s))) F_g = -5.61x10^-21 N = 5.72x10^-22 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field is only 5.72x10^-22 g’s. Insignificant. EARTH GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD The field intensity in the center a conducting ring radius R and current I_ring is B = mu_0 I_ring/ (2 R) Using earth simulating ring radius 1780 km, and gravicurrent i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s We have the field K_g_earth = (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)/ (2* 178 km) = 1.452x10^23 i kg/(m s) which is 18 orders of magnitude larger than the ambient magnetic field i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s). Gravimagnetic intensity: B_g_earth = mu_g_0 * K_g_earth = (9.329597x10^-27 m/kg) * (1.452x10^23 kg/(m s)) = 1.355x10^-3 Hz Interesting! Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(1.452x10^23 i kg/(m s))) F_g = 1.090 N = 0.1112 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the local earth gravimagnetic field is 0.111 g. Significant! So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the local earth gravimagnetic field at the center of earth is 0.111 g. Significant! Huge! It should not differ more than a factor of an order of magnitude at earth orbit altitude. The gravimagnetic force should be very observable. Further since at distance it is a 1/r^3 force, the tidal effects should be very observable in orbit. This may provide some wrinkles for long space tethers and space elevator construction! In the center of earth, by the right hand rule, the gravimagnetic field is directed at the North Pole, and the lines of force exit the earth’s surface in the Northern Hemisphere. However, the gravimagnetic field is oriented Southwards in space above the equator, and due to the majority of mass being in the core, it is oriented that direction even under the surface of the earth at the equator. Since mass has positive charge, but both the gravimagnetic field and charge have a factor of i, the force has a negative sign. This means, at the equator, the direction of the Lorentz gravimagnetic force is away from the earth for an object traveling west-to-east, but toward the earth for an object traveling east-to-west. The orbital velocity, V = (G M/r)^0.5, is reduced when the apparent gravity field g M is reduced. For the same altitude satellites (r fixed), the west-to-east satellite will move slower than the east-to-west satellite, because its apparent value of G M is reduced. This implies that for circular orbits, for the same speed satellites (V fixed), the earth orbit radius will be lower for a west-to-east satellite than for an east-to- west satellite. Space tethers oriented radially in space above the equator will experience seemingly inexplicable stretching tidal forces, while those oriented east-west will experience none. Directly above the poles things are different. Space tethers experience a strong tidal force when oriented broadside to the direction of travel, but not when oriented radially. At the North Pole, the satellite is diverted to the left, contrary to the earth’s spin, while at the South Pole it is diverted in the opposite direction. Between the poles the orientations gradually shift. I hope I got all that right! 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 13:00:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QL0518009632; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:00:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QKi0mG030750; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:44:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:44:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <21f.6e4f5a2.310a8e77@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:43:35 EST Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138308215" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138308215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/2006 11:55:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, michael.foster@excite.com writes: Not so amazing. WWI engendered so much anti-German feeling in both the U.S. and Britain that people in both countries anglicized their names and stopped speaking German even at home. For example, the British royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windsor. In my case, the Schulzes became the Fosters. Kind of strange, if you think about it, since Ben Franklin suggested that German become the official language of the United States and the U.S. and the rest of the world would have been much better off with no American participation in WWI. My mother was born in Eisenach Germany, where Johan Sebastian Bach and Martin Luther once lived and my mother may be distantly related to them. Many Germans fled Prussian Militarism in the 1800 to found a settlement in Lansing, Michigan. Then my mother came to the USA after World War II, since my grandfather being a German Soldier died in the war (1941 in Poland), and my grandmother married another person who brought them to Lansing, Michigan. In Michigan, there was once a large population of Germans. There is the Frankenmuth and many other German towns besides Lansing. I had sent a letter to the German Embassy a few years ago, asking for asylum due to persecution in the USA by the southern US government targeting Germans with beam weapons and other types of harassment. The German government kindly responded and was very sympathetic, and stated that the United Nations does not recognize the US as a dangerous place to live yet and hence no asylum can be granted, even though the United Nations is itself targeting Germans in the USA with beam weapons. I then received emails from persons claiming to be working for the German Intelligence informing me that Germany was at war secretly with Texas which controls the US government presently, and the United Nations controlled by Texan oil well politics and Texan space based weapons systems. I then noticed and was informed by telephone from government agents sent to me claiming to be from the FBI and Congress, that the Texas Mafia, and the US military from the South using the space based weapons run by the space centers in Florida and Texas, was not only targeting my person for being German, but many other Germans, Canadians, Norse, and English persons as well as Professors in Northern Universities in Michigan with beam weapons. I was once a programming teacher at a trade school, and was studying to become a professor in Philosophy and Logic but due to beam weapons attacks I had to postpone that career. The other parts of my ancestry on my father's side is English, Norse, Scottish, Irish, French and Canadian some of whom are royalists perhaps distantly related to Prince Albert according to my official ancestry research. I then later discovered that the Nazi's of Germany and Rome, were created by Texan, Mexican, Mafia, and Third World time travelers, who traveled back in time starting around 1994 to 1997, to create Rome, and Nazi Germany as means to take over Germany, and Europe with Texan's, Indians, and Mexicans from the Third World. The end result of World War II, was that Rome (Mafia like Third World Nazi's) had gained a few more fiefs in Germany. Most of the Nazi scientists after World War II fled to Texas, New Mexico, and Florida to become part of the secret US government, since this secret US government created them by means of time travel. I received emails from white Nazi's, some who claimed to be the son of Hitler, who were friendly and sympathetic to my cause, who claimed that Mexican Nazi's using beam weapons, were targeting and genociding white Nazi's, Germans, Norse, and rich whites in California. There is a movie by Jackie Chan which shows the Mexican time travelers living in secret underground bases in deserts, coming from the partially controlled Mexican US government of today, as being the creators and controllers of Nazi Germany used primarily to genocide white cultures in Europe and the USA. Supposedly, some Nordic E.T.'s and others will aid and protect the white cultures in the near future so that the future will become controlled primarily by white cultures, and hence the nonwhite cultures and some whites who are not Nordic, are presently attempting to genocide all whites on Earth especially in the North, where most the Nordic's live. Since the whites and white Nordic's win out in the near future, the rest of the third world nonwhites, and whites that are allied with them travel back in time to create the fallen empires of Rome, and Nazi Germany. Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. -------------------------------1138308215 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/26/2006 11:55:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, michael= .foster@excite.com writes:
Not so amazing.  WWI engendered so much a= nti-German feeling in
both the U.S. and Britain that people in both count= ries anglicized
their names and stopped speaking German even at home.&nbs= p; For
example, the British royal family changed their name from Saxe-Cob= urg
to Windsor.  In my case, the Schulzes became the Fosters.
Kind of strange, if you think about it, since Ben Franklin suggested
tha= t German become the official language of the United States and
the U.S.=20= and the rest of the world would have been much better off
with no America= n participation in WWI.
My mother was born in Eisenach Germany, where Johan Sebastian Bach = ;and Martin Luther once lived and my mother may be distantly related to them= .  Many Germans fled Prussian Militarism in the 1800 to found a settlem= ent in Lansing, Michigan.  Then my mother came to the USA after World W= ar II, since my grandfather being a German Soldier died in the war (1941 in=20= Poland), and my grandmother married another person who brought them to Lansi= ng, Michigan.   In Michigan, there was once a large population of=20= Germans.  There is the Frankenmuth and many other German towns besides=20= Lansing.  
 
I had sent a letter to the German Embassy a few years ago, asking for a= sylum due to persecution in the USA by the southern US government targeting=20= Germans with beam weapons and other types of harassment.  The German go= vernment kindly responded and was very sympathetic, and stated that the Unit= ed Nations does not recognize the US as a dangerous place to live yet a= nd hence no asylum can be granted, even though the United Nations is itself=20= targeting Germans in the USA with beam weapons.    I then received= emails from persons claiming to be working for the German Intelligence info= rming me that Germany was at war secretly with Texas which controls the US g= overnment presently, and the United Nations controlled by Texan oil well pol= itics and Texan space based weapons systems.  
 
I then noticed and was informed by telephone from government agent= s sent to me claiming to be from the FBI and Congress, that the Texas Mafia,= and the US military from the South using the space based weapons run b= y the space centers in Florida and Texas, was not only targeting my per= son for being German, but many other Germans, Canadians, Norse, and English=20= persons as well as Professors in Northern Universities in Michigan with= beam weapons.  I was once a programming teacher at a trade school, and= was studying to become a professor in Philosophy and Logic but due to beam=20= weapons attacks I had to postpone that career.   The other parts o= f my ancestry on my father's side is English, Norse, Scottish, Irish, F= rench and Canadian some of whom are royalists perhaps distantly related= to Prince Albert according to my official ancestry research.  
 
I then later discovered that the Nazi's of Germany and Rome, were creat= ed by Texan, Mexican, Mafia, and Third World time travelers, who travel= ed back in time starting around 1994 to 1997, to create Rome, and Nazi Germa= ny as means to take over Germany, and Europe with Texan's, Indians= , and Mexicans from the Third World.  The end result of World War II, w= as that Rome (Mafia like Third World Nazi's) had gained a few more fiefs in=20= Germany.  Most of the Nazi scientists after World War II fled to Texas,= New Mexico, and Florida to become part of the secret US government, since t= his secret US government created them by means of time travel.  I recei= ved emails from white Nazi's, some who claimed to be the son of Hitler, who=20= were friendly and sympathetic to my cause, who claimed that Mexican Nazi's u= sing beam weapons, were targeting and genociding white Nazi's, Germans, Nors= e, and rich whites in California.  There is a movie by Jackie Chan= which shows the Mexican time travelers living in secret underground bases i= n deserts, coming from the partially controlled Mexican US government of tod= ay, as being the creators and controllers of Nazi Germany used primarily to=20= genocide white cultures in Europe and the USA.  Supposedly, some Nordic= E.T.'s and others will aid and protect the white cultures in the near=20= future so that the future will become controlled primarily by white cultures= , and hence the nonwhite cultures and some whites who are not Nordic, are pr= esently attempting to genocide all whites on Earth especially in the North,=20= where most the Nordic's live.   Since the whites and white Nordic'= s win out in the near future, the rest of the third world nonwhites, and whi= tes that are allied with them travel back in time to create the fallen empir= es of Rome, and Nazi Germany.
 
Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,= Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,
Pers= onal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productio= n's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Star Haven Community Service= s, at = http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb= .com/

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others.
 
-------------------------------1138308215-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 13:04:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QL4aVT013231; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:04:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QL4XnP013183; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:04:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:04:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <46.793e587e.310a9358@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:04:24 EST Subject: Re: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138309464" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2ebP8.A.6ND.glT2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138309464 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/2006 3:42:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, walhalla@cvtv.net writes: we are protected from the socalled government intelligencia and their band of conspiracy buffs. The Second Baptist Church of Houston had the only organized response team on the ground ready to go after Katrina and Rita.. FEMA et.al. did what it was designed to do.. make excuses and point fingers. Relax, we are safe. Richard I am glad to hear that there are some friendly groups in Texas such as the Church protecting people from the government. I had been lead to believe that part of Texas and part of the US government controlled by Mexican Drug Lords, had been taken over by third world Mexicans, Indians and others, who were not very friendly to US citizens. I once admired Texas, especially Frank Shorter whom I met and who was my role model in high school, when I was a long distance runner. But I then started having problems with Mexicans, Mafia persons, and persons claiming to be from Texas, who were stalking me, causing me a lot of problems and claiming to be secretly taking over Michigan by means of beam weapons warfare, since Michigan has a lot of fresh water supply which the South will need in the future, and since there is a lot of oil in Michigan and Canada. Hence the bad guys in the US government and in Texas must be the oil well powers, while the good guys in Texas must be anti-oil well groups. -------------------------------1138309464 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/26/2006 3:42:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, walhalla= @cvtv.net writes:
we are protected from the socalled govern= ment intelligencia and their band of conspiracy buffs. The Second Baptist Ch= urch of Houston had the only organized response team on the ground ready to=20= go after Katrina and Rita.. FEMA et.al. did what it was designed to do.. mak= e excuses and point fingers.
Relax, we are safe.
Richard
I am glad to hear that there are some friendly groups in Texas such as=20= the Church protecting people from the government. 
 
I had been lead to believe that part of Texas and part of the US g= overnment controlled by Mexican Drug Lords, had been taken over by thir= d world Mexicans, Indians and others, who were not very friendly to US=20= citizens.  I once admired Texas, especially Frank Shorter whom I met an= d who was my role model in high school, when I was a long distance runner.&n= bsp; But I then started having problems with Mexicans, Mafia persons, and pe= rsons claiming to be from Texas, who were stalking me, causing me a lot of p= roblems and claiming to be secretly taking over Michigan by means of be= am weapons warfare, since Michigan has a lot of fresh water supply which the= South will need in the future, and since there is a lot of oil in Michigan=20= and Canada.  Hence the bad guys in the US government and in Texas must=20= be the oil well powers, while the good guys in Texas must be anti-oil well g= roups.
-------------------------------1138309464-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 13:25:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QLPJTD027691; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:25:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QLPC5d027618; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:25:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:25:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:19:47 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F0D55EC63D80-14F8-C112@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <258.5c574fd.310a7bda@aol.com> <000a01c622b5$f279c790$f6027841@xptower> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <000a01c622b5$f279c790$f6027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay Relax, we are safe. <><><><><><><><> Not if you are near Texas City: http://www.arcticbeacon.com/ Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 14:05:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QLkFSi007701; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:46:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QLk9PW007652; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:46:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:46:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2B0C8C4D-F3DA-4E2D-B3E2-B3678276B9EA@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: (off topic) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:43:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 26, 2006, at 9:11 AM, Keith Nagel wrote: > Nowhere in the document do I find language which clearly states > that this is a science oriented discussion list. In http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#rules: "The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Currently it has evolved into a discussion on "taboo" physics reports and research. SKEPTICS BEWARE, the topics wander from Cold Fusion, to reports of excess energy in Free Energy devices, gravity generation and detection, reports of theoretically impossible phenomena, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Before you subscribe, please see the rules below. This is a public, lightly- moderated smartlist list. There is no charge, but donations towards expenses are recommended." > What I do find > are specific passages such as > > **************************************************************** > Vortex-L is for those who see great value in removing their usual > mental > filters by provisionally accepting the validity of "impossible" > phenomena > in order to test them. Testing implies use of scientific method. What is avoided is the *stereotypical* scientific method that depends on an authoritative approach. Limiting scope to existing authoritative sources is a sure way to not make the kinds of advances in energy that are so clearly needed. The main theme of this list has always been science anomalies, especially in the energy field, starting with the Potapov device and CF. Given all the publications at LENR-CANR.org, it is getting so CF is barely in the anomaly category, so maybe it should be dropped. 8^) It seems to me that if there is a problem it is the lack of people actually doing any real experimentation or even basic theory. Or... maybe it is just the inability to refrain from comment on off topic things. However, *we* have the right to complain about OT stuff, and get it booted off, so it is we who are responsible for letting it get out of hand. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 14:08:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QM82ht021105; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:08:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QM7vXG021036; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:07:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <74442752-5A53-4C49-AB84-5578BAA4A11A@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: (off topic) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:00:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 26, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Horace, > > Firstly, the statement you excerpt is largely descriptive, not > prescriptive as my selected statements. But that aside, it > would seem to me that the notion that some white guy with > a beard who lives in the sky is personally responsible for the sinking > of a major American city Sounds like a topic that will be thrashed for days. > falls pretty squarely under the > "crackpot claim" clause and as such not OT for Vo. The moderator > must agree, because this stuff makes up at least 50% of > Vo. traffic and is not moderated. > > you write: >> Testing implies use of scientific method. What is avoided is the >> *stereotypical* scientific method that depends on an authoritative >> approach. Limiting scope to existing authoritative sources is a sure >> way to not make the kinds of advances in energy that are so clearly >> needed. > > The first and third statements are certainly true. The second doesn't > make any sense to me at all. Well, you have to have to be coming from the perspective of having no credentials at all to appreciate this issue. 8^) > It would be like saying "the stereotypical > Atheist concerns himself with the teachings of Christ". I think its more like saying the stereotypical priest concerns himself with the views of the vatican. Dang this analogy is just getting wayyyy off topic... 8^) > That's > a believer, and should be characterized as such. The stereotypical > scientific method is just that, test and measure, and experiment > trumps theory. The stereotypical believer is just that, taking > authority over experience and test. That's science from an individual experimentalist perspective. "Real science", however, is carried out as a social phenomenon, and only the high priests of publication sit in final judgement. New ideas had to wait for them to die off or be replaced. At least that's the way it used to be. > >> The main theme of this list has always been science >> anomalies, especially in the energy field, starting with the Potapov >> device and CF. Given all the publications at LENR-CANR.org, it is >> getting so CF is barely in the anomaly category, so maybe it should >> be dropped. 8^) > > Heh. Maybe it should, it is after all a science and not a crackpot > idea. I've certainly never felt differently about it, have you? > (grin). Well, I've certainly done nothing but push it in the other direction. 8^) Still, I'm impressed with how steadily progress has been made. I just hope the old guys making the progress get there before they all die off. > >> It seems to me that if there is a problem it is the lack of people >> actually doing any real experimentation or even basic theory. Or... > > Yes, but "true believers" DON'T DO EXPERIMENTS, OR EVEN MUCH > THEORIZING. Yeah, I guess so. Why go to all that trouble if it won't make any difference anyway. 8^) > >> However, *we* have the right to complain about OT stuff, and >> get it booted off, so it is we who are responsible for letting it get >> out of hand. > > Well, I complained for a long time to the moderator about this stuff, > until I "saw the light". It takes a collective public effort to toss junk off the list. At least we don't currently have any money grubbing frauds pushing their wares, and vortex has been effective along those lines, but, it is just a matter of time before another one surfaces. > > Oh yes, I don't know if you intend this to be a private discussion, > if not, you can repost my reply publically. Done. I accidentally responded to you privately because you have your "reply to" set to yourself. I hope tis makes it to vortex because some of my posts are hitting a bit bucket somewhere. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 14:29:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QMTIJH002270; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:29:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QMTGcF002224; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:29:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:29:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43D8DAF2.7060108@pobox.com> References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> <43D8DAF2.7060108@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:26:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 26, 2006, at 5:21 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Horace Heffner wrote: >> On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:22 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> Thank you for the summary. I had one comment (really just one, >>> this time!) >>> >>> Horace Heffner wrote: >>> >>>> Mass in the conventional spacetime metric is considered invariant. >>> >>> >>> There's a semantic problem here. "An invariant" is a well- >>> defined mathematical concept. However, it's just that -- a >>> mathematical concept. Saying "this is an _invariant_" doesn't >>> mean it's some simple physical property which always has the >>> same value. >>> >> Wheeler and Taylor say the mass of any isolated system is >> invariant. In other words: >> m^2 = E^2 + p^2 >> in one frame then >> m^2 = (E')^2 - (p')^2 >> in another for that isolated subsystem. > > Right. I think that's similar to what I said. I was talking about > a single body, but it's the same thing, really. If we put the > whole system in a box, then the squared magnitude of the 4-momentum > of the box is > > m^2 * gamma^2 * (v^2 - 1) > > which is, rearranging terms, > > (m^2 * gamma^2 * v^2) - (m^2 * gamma^2) > > or in more familiar terms, > > p^2 - E^2 > > But it also is equal to -m^2, since the gamma^2 and the (v^2-1) > terms cancel. > > Either way it's a mathematical invariant. > > And the inner product of the 4-velocity of an observer with the 4- > momentum of an isolated system is _another_ invariant, and it gives > the relativistic mass of the system, which is more often referred > to as the energy these days. Taylor and Wheeler are careful to distinguish that the mass of identical types of individual particles having the same (rest) mass is a concept completely separate from the principle that mass of an isolated system is invariant. Mass of a system is the same in whatever freefloat frame it is computed. The invariance of the 4- vector interaction is an invariance of the products before and after an interaction. In the Taylor and Wheeler view mass is conserved in isolated systems, while momenergy is not. > > >> Problem is, no subsystem of mass is isolated. Stuff comes in and >> out of the vacuum constantly. A significant portion of the >> magnetic field of the proton comes from strange quark pairs >> popping in and out of the vacuum, for example. Acceleration >> affects how things pop in and out of the vacuum and how long they >> stick around. >>> It's easy to forget that relativity theory says _nothing_ about >>> what is "real" and what is not. >> Who's relativity? Certainly not mine! You make it sound like >> there is only one version! 8^) > > Oh, I just meant the kind that Einstein worked on. It consists of > a mathematical model, and a bunch of points of contact with > reality, which are called "events". That theory can predict what > measurements can be made by particular observers at particular > "events" but what goes on between "events" is open to speculation, > and the question of "why" anything happens is also left open. You make it sound like there is only one of those. There is plenty of controversy about relativity, both SR and GR. That's my point. There is not single view though I assume there is common agreement about how to calculate most things until the quantum realm is reached. I only had the audacity to mention "mine" because that proves the existence of at least two points of view. > > >>> With all that said, when someone refers to the "invariant mass" >>> they mean the rest mass. >> Not Wheeler and Taylor. > > Really? Not everybody uses the term at all. But if they use it, > _and_ they use it to refer to something else, that's a surprise. > > Try googling "invariant/mass" -- it's on an awful lot of websites > and as far as I can tell it's used to mean the mass of an object in > its own rest frame. Yes. Still, I have good reason to doubt the invariance of mass but can not go into it now. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 14:33:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QMX276004654; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:33:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QMWtPj004599; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:32:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:32:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126142421.034d7468@mindspring.com> References: <200601261456.k0QEuPQl083306@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.0.16.2.20060126142421.034d7468@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: A refreshing Change, article mentions CF favorably Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:30:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 26, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Thanks for your letter; I appreciate all the links. I was unaware > of the storm of controversy surrounding cold fusion. The idea has > always been represented positively by my chemistry and physics > professors. OK, it's looking pretty bad guys! CF is just about an off topic subject here. Too mundane! 8^) > Keep fighting the good fight with Time. Journalists tend to be > hopelessly ignorant of two subjects: physics/chemistry and > economics. They also love debate, so why the magazine would be so > hesitant to provide another look at cold fusion is beyond me. Time > seems to be a troubled publication. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 15:11:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QNADje028878; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:11:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QN0YsI022190; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:00:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:00:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ba01c622cc$49387f70$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: "On the Splitting of Water" Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:00:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hope this is not Off-Topic, as it does carry non-partisan political overtones. This post is really about the 'missed opportunity' we have had form many years to be well on our way into the "hydrogen age" or at least to have subdollar per gallon methanol. Of course, we are still delaying the inevitable, even today. 22 years ago, this fantastic article (url below) first appeared in the "Int. J of Hydrogen." Even then John O'M. Bockris was considered to be among the top electrochemists around. Sadly his reputation may have diminished somewhat in the eyes of the mainstream, due to his subsequent quick acceptance of LENR, when it came along - but he had the integrity to "follow the facts" even if it went contrary to textbook liturgy. Matter of fact, he wrote a few of those textbooks. This seminal article of Bockris is now posted to the net, and contains this great section - almost as relevant today as then - about the prospect of using *coal slurries* to cheaply obtain hydrogen and eliminate all the non-volatile pollutants from coal. This will work for methanol as well as hydrogen. And it gets rid of the sulfur and other noxious pollutants. As everyone knows, the USA is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and for every ton of high grade coal, we have 4 tons of subgrade, which is unsuitable for power plants or steel making, and is currently unused - as it has half the BTUs and triple the pollutants - BUT which is ideal for making hydrogen cheaply with no impact on the price of coal for other uses. AND - get this with less net pollution air than with high grade coal or natural gas. This end of the coal business is different - it is basically a "transportation business" and not an energy-business - as almost the entire cost of strip mining subgrade coal is in moving dirt and replacing dirt after the coal is taken. This demands an on-site conversion plant. The resultant land is actually improved for cattle grazing after this has been done - so it is not the "rape" of the land so bemoaned in Appalachia... which BTW is absolutely true - but that was for high grade coal needed for steel - and with no laws in place for returning the land to its former quality. Too bad about Paradise and the Green River. Most of the subgrade coal is in 5 US Western states, and is under prairie land now - land used for minimal cattle grazing and supporting only one or two cows per acre. Even though it involves improving poor land in the long run - that does not mean that the Sierra Club will not take oil dollars to oppose any such projects. Here is the Bockris article, of which a description of this coal technology is only a part and much has been learned since them relative to subgrade coal. http://71.197.200.191/egas/files/bockris.pdf The point is this. We could have already been well into the hydrogen age, using coal to make hydrogen - had we just had one thing in place - the national will-power to do this when OPEC started getting difficult and playing hardball with oil supplies. But little did we know that to the petrocracy - this Oil Cartel was an opportunity to fleece consumers even more - and not as a problem. They actually have made far more money because of OPEC... and not despite OPEC - leading many to suspect some kind of collusion. This national will-power would have only demanded one thing - getting Big-Oil completely out of government. Ha. Big Oil out of government - dream on ! Big-Oil IS government. Even in the wake of Enron, that national resolve to dump Big-Oil and its progeny never happened; and probably never will - at least until the Ship-of-State starts to sink at a more rapid rate. Trillion dollar wars will do that. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 15:44:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0QNP9fx006696; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:25:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0QNOw6X006561; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:24:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:24:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fw: (off topic) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:32:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126151435.034d7468@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jed, The man of many words is being awfully brief here. I'm not asking you to defend your position. I'm asking that you look at the charter of the list, and see if it matches your _idea_ of what the list is. Let me quote it again. http://www.amasci.com/weird/vmore.html ********************************************************** Vortex-L is intended to be a discussion area for researchers who practice extreme openmindedness and who will "accept falsehoods in order to avoid rejecting truths". This forum is for those with a low tolerance for consensus-think and a high tolerance for "crazy ideas." *********************************************************** As such, it seems perfectly within the bounds of the list to make statements about Ben Spock, MM OHare and God being personally responsible for the destruction of an American city. OTOH, cold fusion is now more or less being accepted as science, and as such, does not at all meet the criteria expressed in the charter and should (now) be considered OT. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:25 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Fw: (off topic) Keith Nagel wrote: >Talk about gross factual errors! Jed, this list is _not_ a science >based discussion list. There is a WORLD of difference between suspending disbelief and ignoring facts. I am always ready to "consider ideas and phenomena," but that is not the same as pretending that Benjamin Spock said things he did not say. "Suspending disbelief" would include entertaining the notion that spanking is actually good for children. That is plausible. It would not include inventing statistics to show that crime is increasing when it is actually decreasing. >If I'm off base here . . . Way off base. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 16:40:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R0dVCP023964; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:39:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R0dT9B023927; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:39:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:39:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <00c301c621dd$f5b114f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <039e01c62136$f066fe30$6401a8c0@NuDell> <00c301c621dd$f5b114f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Hagelstein Lecture Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:06:31 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > >> A field in water at the cathode is not different from a field in >> water at the anode - except for the fact the anode field can be >> orders of magnitude more intense, and the water structure better >> > organized. > > > I think that it has to do with that first micron of interface - > only this time that interface would be in the liquid, not the > electrode metal. Perhaps a "colloid" is a better term than "liquid" > since the implication is quite different. A colloid would have > nanoparticles, most of which came off the anode originally - each > roughly spherical of perhaps 20-100 bound metal atoms, a slight > positive change, and acting as an "exciton". > > And I am a bit surprised that you are in apparent disagreement I am not in disagreement, but merely pointing out that based on the principle stated: "They could just as easily employ a liquid lattice as a metallic one...", the *anode* is the vicinity to engineer for effect. At any rate, I think data will soon determine if anything of use is happening at high voltage cell anodes. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 17:02:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R1087m006108; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:01:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R0cU8c023361; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:38:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:38:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126184742.035b00e8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:18:40 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Fw: (off topic) In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126151435.034d7468@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >As such, it seems perfectly within the bounds of the list >to make statements about Ben Spock, MM OHare and God being personally >responsible for the destruction of an American city. It is indeed within the bounds of the list to make these statements! No problem-o. There are, however, two limitations. They apply to matters of fact, and to hypotheses. 1. Matters of fact should be correct. That means you should fact-check something that sounds like an urban myth. It is a fact that Spock's grandson, not his son, committed suicide. The cause was insanity, not his upbringing. This is not debatable. 2. Hypotheses should be falsifiable, or they are not scientific. Revtec asserted, among other things, that spanking children is good for them. That seems highly unlikely to me, but at least in principle you could test it, and prove it true or false. So I was not objecting to that. That's the kind of weird, off-the-wall assertion we should welcome . . . I suppose. Some of Revtec's other statements were clearly not intended to be taken as facts or hypotheses. Lyrical statements such as "Good friends are like stars . . ." have no scientific content. People do not resemble high temperature hydrogen plasma, and Revtec is not suggesting this might explain spontaneous human combustion. However, the message was clearly marked "off topic" so I have no objection to this aspect of it. As far as I am concerned, any statement of a religious nature can only be taken as a non-falsifiable lyrical or emotive outburst, without scientific content, sort of like a joke about sex or breaking wind (or breaking wind while having sex). It is the sort of thing an extraterrestrial visitor with different biology would never understand, relate to, or laugh at. Such things are off-topic by definition, but harmless. Anyway, enough silliness. I am preparing a paper by Mizuno that will be off-the-wall enough for everyone here. I hope it will be ready tomorrow. It is about his January 2005 explosion. Analysis of the computer data has revealed that it liberated about 800 times more energy than the total electrochemical energy input before the experiment. So I guess that rules out a chemical explosion, doesn't it? If anyone other than Mizuno made this claim, I would dismiss it, but he is the most honest person I have ever known, and this time, he has computer data and photos. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 17:54:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R1sJIG003429; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:54:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R1sHWE003414; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:54:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:54:05 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F0FBB07F7148-FF8-2D40B@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <01ba01c622cc$49387f70$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <01ba01c622cc$49387f70$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "On the Splitting of Water" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex Sent: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:00:21 -0800 Subject: "On the Splitting of Water" Hope this is not Off-Topic, as it does carry non-partisan political overtones. http://71.197.200.191/egas/files/bockris.pdf I could not get this link to work. The IP address indicates it is a Comcast web site. Possibly a personal site which has exceeded it's allocation for the day? Terry "Bi-partisan: Larger than the usual conspiracy." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 18:52:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R2qErD005055; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:52:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R2qCFm005003; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:52:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:52:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAA+k= Message-ID: <18565263.1138328672539.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 18:24:31 -0800 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, I think the witch doctor within me could do a better job of commenting. Therefore I shall, don the proper headgear and speak in different tongues: *********************************************** Thomas, Have you seen the film: "A Beautiful Mind"? We are sure you can rent the DVD. It's about a mathematician who managed to win the Nobel Prize despite certain hardships he had to endure in his life. Here's a trailer on the film: http://www.abeautifulmind.com/main.html You have a beautiful mind as well. It is your gift. It can also be your demon. What we mean by that is with the power of imagination comes the responsibility of learning how to harness the creation within you. What goes hand-in-hand with the power of creation is learning the responsibilities of discernment. The personal responsibility of discernment is one of the major life-tasks you have taken on this time around. If you don't learn discernment this time around. You eventually will later on. Your Inner Essence will see to that. You are experiencing the power creation and how it colors your perception of reality. Without learning the skills discernment the creativity within you runs without guidance, on autopilot making its own decisions on how it chooses to manifest within your frame of reference. Without conscious discernment your creativity will throw back at you a never-ending collection of dragons of every form, color and shape imaginable. You state that you asked the German Embassy a few years ago to grant you asylum from persecution by elements of the southern US government that are targeting Germans with beam weapons, along with other types of harassment. Your request for asylum was denied. Had your request been granted and you had gone to Germany in your attempt to escape persecution you would have eventually learned, and probably rather quickly, that you would still be feeling persecuted. And then what would you do? Would you flee to another country? How many more countries would you need to escape to before realizing that the persecution you sensed was actually being generated by the power of your own creativity, and not by the "southern US government" or their "beam weapons." Creativity comes in the guise of many faces. It can surprise us, transporting us to unexpected landscapes. Some of those landscapes are beautiful beyond description. It can also be terrifying, and particularly for those who are unaware of or refuse to accept that the well of creativity always comes from within and not from some outside source. This is your link with Creation, with the TAO, with Infinity, with All-That-Is. Creation never promised you a Rose Garden. Creation, instead, gave you the tools to grown your own Garden. Creation gave you the tools to remove the weeds, to grow your rose bushes for all to admire. It is your responsibility to make the garden you create another corner in the Greater Forest that all may walk through and take solace in its shade. Sooner or later you must face your demons. You do not have to face them alone or without assistance. ************************************************ Regards, Dr. Mubatta Nicku Johnson www.OrionWorks.com PS: The bill is in the mail. ---- ThomasClark123@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/26/2006 11:55:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, > michael.foster@excite.com writes: > Not so amazing. WWI engendered so much anti-German feeling in > both the U.S. and Britain that people in both countries anglicized > their names and stopped speaking German even at home. For > example, the British royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg > to Windsor. In my case, the Schulzes became the Fosters. > > Kind of strange, if you think about it, since Ben Franklin suggested > that German become the official language of the United States and > the U.S. and the rest of the world would have been much better off > with no American participation in WWI. > My mother was born in Eisenach Germany, where Johan Sebastian Bach and Martin > Luther once lived and my mother may be distantly related to them. Many > Germans fled Prussian Militarism in the 1800 to found a settlement in Lansing, > Michigan. Then my mother came to the USA after World War II, since my grandfather > being a German Soldier died in the war (1941 in Poland), and my grandmother > married another person who brought them to Lansing, Michigan. In Michigan, > there was once a large population of Germans. There is the Frankenmuth and many > other German towns besides Lansing. > > I had sent a letter to the German Embassy a few years ago, asking for asylum > due to persecution in the USA by the southern US government targeting Germans > with beam weapons and other types of harassment. The German government kindly > responded and was very sympathetic, and stated that the United Nations does > not recognize the US as a dangerous place to live yet and hence no asylum can > be granted, even though the United Nations is itself targeting Germans in the > USA with beam weapons. I then received emails from persons claiming to be > working for the German Intelligence informing me that Germany was at war > secretly with Texas which controls the US government presently, and the United > Nations controlled by Texan oil well politics and Texan space based weapons systems. > > > I then noticed and was informed by telephone from government agents sent to > me claiming to be from the FBI and Congress, that the Texas Mafia, and the US > military from the South using the space based weapons run by the space centers > in Florida and Texas, was not only targeting my person for being German, but > many other Germans, Canadians, Norse, and English persons as well as Professors > in Northern Universities in Michigan with beam weapons. I was once a > programming teacher at a trade school, and was studying to become a professor in > Philosophy and Logic but due to beam weapons attacks I had to postpone that > career. The other parts of my ancestry on my father's side is English, Norse, > Scottish, Irish, French and Canadian some of whom are royalists perhaps distantly > related to Prince Albert according to my official ancestry research. > > I then later discovered that the Nazi's of Germany and Rome, were created by > Texan, Mexican, Mafia, and Third World time travelers, who traveled back in > time starting around 1994 to 1997, to create Rome, and Nazi Germany as means to > take over Germany, and Europe with Texan's, Indians, and Mexicans from the > Third World. The end result of World War II, was that Rome (Mafia like Third > World Nazi's) had gained a few more fiefs in Germany. Most of the Nazi > scientists after World War II fled to Texas, New Mexico, and Florida to become part of > the secret US government, since this secret US government created them by > means of time travel. I received emails from white Nazi's, some who claimed to be > the son of Hitler, who were friendly and sympathetic to my cause, who claimed > that Mexican Nazi's using beam weapons, were targeting and genociding white > Nazi's, Germans, Norse, and rich whites in California. There is a movie by > Jackie Chan which shows the Mexican time travelers living in secret underground > bases in deserts, coming from the partially controlled Mexican US government of > today, as being the creators and controllers of Nazi Germany used primarily > to genocide white cultures in Europe and the USA. Supposedly, some Nordic > E.T.'s and others will aid and protect the white cultures in the near future so > that the future will become controlled primarily by white cultures, and hence > the nonwhite cultures and some whites who are not Nordic, are presently > attempting to genocide all whites on Earth especially in the North, where most the > Nordic's live. Since the whites and white Nordic's win out in the near future, > the rest of the third world nonwhites, and whites that are allied with them > travel back in time to create the fallen empires of Rome, and Nazi Germany. > > Baron Von Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron, Email: > http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html > President Thomas D. Clark, Email: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, > Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal > New Age Production's Inc., http://www.rhfweb.com/newage > Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ > > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 19:18:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R3Ig7c020964; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:18:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R3IePf020947; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:18:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:18:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D99104.1020800@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:18:28 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: (off topic) References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126151435.034d7468@mindspring.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060126184742.035b00e8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060126184742.035b00e8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2psoNB.A.MHF.QEZ2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Anyway, enough silliness. I am preparing a paper by Mizuno that will be > off-the-wall enough for everyone here. I hope it will be ready tomorrow. > It is about his January 2005 explosion. Analysis of the computer data > has revealed that it liberated about 800 times more energy than the > total electrochemical energy input before the experiment. So I guess > that rules out a chemical explosion, doesn't it? If anyone other than > Mizuno made this claim, I would dismiss it, but he is the most honest > person I have ever known, and this time, he has computer data and photos. I am reminded again of something I ran across while digging around on Scott Little's website. In the course of attempting to replicate Mizuno's experiment, Little collected H and O in the headspace of the cell in what I would suppose must have been stoichiometric proportions. On more than one occasion, he accidentally detonated the cell via the action of an overheated catalyst in the recombiner -- the flame ran back up the exhaust tube into the cell, and *boom*. After that he installed a flame arrester (or I should say he installed a more effective flame arrester), and subsequently detonated smaller amounts of the gas within the recombiner many times without even significantly damaging the recombiner. These results were far, far less dramatic than what happened with Mizuno's explosion. Yet Little's explosions were obviously exactly what I saw proposed for the mechanism of the Mizuno explosion: Catastrophic recombination of H and O in the headspace of the cell. And the result was clearly very different from Mizuno's result -- no value judgement or fancy test equipment needed to detect this difference! That really made me wonder about what actually blew up in Mizuno's cell. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 19:51:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R3pC9T003447; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:51:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R3pANt003421; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:51:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:51:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43D998A4.9080102@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:51:00 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060122065319.18870.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D39146.3080200@pobox.com> <43D44C8F.5070903@pobox.com> <9FD38E08-15D7-4813-BD42-F73B112D6173@mtaonline.net> <43D4E463.8050803@pobox.com> <43D68EBD.5F39B463@centurytel.net> <43D797BA.2040906@pobox.com> <43D8DAF2.7060108@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > > On Jan 26, 2006, at 5:21 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> Right. I think that's similar to what I said. > > Taylor and Wheeler are careful to distinguish that the mass of > identical types of individual particles having the same (rest) mass is > a concept completely separate from the principle that mass of an > isolated system is invariant. OK, I'm being sloppy, you're right, this is a bit different. > Mass of a system is the same in whatever > freefloat frame it is computed. But none the less "invariance" means the same thing: It's the same in any frame in which it's computed -- that means it's the same in any Lorentz coordinates, which means it's a scalar on the manifold. Scalar fields are "invariant", other things aren't. First they needed to prove the 4-momentum of the _system_ of particles was conserved. Once they had that, then they take the squared magnitude of the momentum of the system of particles, and once again it works out to something which is equal to the mass of the system in the center of mass frame for the system. Right? I think? > The invariance of the 4- vector > interaction is an invariance of the products before and after an > interaction. Um ... this sounds more like a statement of conservation than a statement of invariance. > In the Taylor and Wheeler view mass is conserved in isolated systems, > while momenergy is not. What?? Am I failing to understand you here? Do I know what you mean by "momenergy"? Maybe not. I would guess it means 4-momentum. But ... 4-momentum of an isolated system is not conserved?? No way! Um ... Do we have an issue with the terms "invariant" and "conserved"? As I understand it, the two terms are unrelated. "Invariant" means it has the same value in all coordinate systems. The term "conserved" means its value is independent of time. But you know that, right? That can't be the point where we're disconnecting. Horace, are you going to force me to buy Spacetime Physics? It's supposed to be a very good book, but I've already got too many relativity texts :-( Schutz says 4-momentum is conserved. I sure _thought_ it was conserved. If 4-momentum isn't conserved then all bets are off. If it is conserved, then again, dotting it with the 4-velocity of an arbitrary observer will give you a value which corresponds to the relativistic mass of the system in that observer's rest frame, which to me means that relativistic mass is just as much a first-class citizen as rest mass. But I'm swimming against the tide here, I know. >> >>> Problem is, no subsystem of mass is isolated. Stuff comes in and >>> out of the vacuum constantly. A significant portion of the >>> magnetic field of the proton comes from strange quark pairs popping >>> in and out of the vacuum, for example. Acceleration affects how >>> things pop in and out of the vacuum and how long they stick around. >>> >>>> It's easy to forget that relativity theory says _nothing_ about >>>> what is "real" and what is not. >>> >>> Who's relativity? Certainly not mine! You make it sound like >>> there is only one version! 8^) >> >> >> Oh, I just meant the kind that Einstein worked on. It consists of a >> mathematical model, and a bunch of points of contact with reality, >> which are called "events". That theory can predict what measurements >> can be made by particular observers at particular "events" but what >> goes on between "events" is open to speculation, and the question of >> "why" anything happens is also left open. > > > > You make it sound like there is only one of those. I'm no expert. I only learned one kind, and that not terribly well. But every text I've seen on it only discusses events, and things that happen at events, and whatever "reality" does between times is not part of it. Similarly, the term "real" is hardly ever defined or used. > There is plenty of > controversy about relativity, both SR and GR. That's my point. There > is not single view though I assume there is common agreement about how > to calculate most things until the quantum realm is reached. I only > had the audacity to mention "mine" because that proves the existence of > at least two points of view. > > > >> >> >>>> With all that said, when someone refers to the "invariant mass" >>>> they mean the rest mass. >>> >>> Not Wheeler and Taylor. >> >> >> Really? Not everybody uses the term at all. But if they use it, >> _and_ they use it to refer to something else, that's a surprise. >> >> Try googling "invariant/mass" -- it's on an awful lot of websites and >> as far as I can tell it's used to mean the mass of an object in its >> own rest frame. > > > Yes. Still, I have good reason to doubt the invariance of mass but can > not go into it now. Do you mean conservation of mass? All I was trying to clarify is what is generally meant by the term "invariant". My point, such as it was, was that saying rest mass is "invariant" means less than it sounds like it means, and doesn't have much to do with how "real" it is versus any other kind of mass. > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 26 20:09:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R49bOZ011664; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:09:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R49ao0011653; Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:09:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:09:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BMDyV3dHEWxJHDHSRgHNOsiM0ZM1IrXYsaCq289kU1zgxroWP7zCyGspnV93WG4W3no2mapWH3CWql3ylk4mvHzWUVtAjxcCYNm8OOuMTzcYk8Btex6mt8AcwftzSsQ+OqUnwksO2WQVuygdCtUR4u3H73deTEB+9cAwDaH7esA= ; Message-ID: <20060127040930.89103.qmail@web81110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:09:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: "On the Splitting of Water" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C7F0FBB07F7148-FF8-2D40B@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > I could not get this link to work Try this one: http://tinyurl.com/8a9yv From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 01:49:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0R9muNf025226; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 01:48:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0R9mkJ4025118; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 01:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 01:48:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:49:43 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt Stearns posted; >Bizarre story about time traveler John Titor that predicted Z-Machine and >claims his time machine needed that technology. > >http://www.johntitor.com > I listened to a man who has studied the Titor matter on C to C AM, and IMHO, this is science fiction Hoyt. Frank Meyer told me that time is a continium, not a dimension. IMHO, time goes one way, from start to finish. I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd travel back in time and kick my 20 year old self in the ass. But I'm not going to hold my breath. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 02:19:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RA5Tkk031061; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:05:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RA5NGe031027; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:05:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:05:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:53:46 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Mueller Motor Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <8L3fmD.A.ukH.jBf2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pat Bailey sent me this URL http://www.magnetricity.com/NeoG/NeoGen_Dynamo.php The webmaster is apparently attempting to see how big a webpage they can put together. It crashed the Mac's browser. The PC opened it, but it took a long time to load with a dial up modem, even after loading for 7 hours, some of the graphics remained as icons. The proposed motor is an updated version of the Adams Motor with Ne Fe B magnets. The controller is based on MOSFET's. The coils are stepped cones, in the tradition of Walter Russell, The winding are bifilar. Given the track record of the above inventors, I wouldn't want to gamble any money that I didn't want to lose on it. I talked to the Late Mr. Mueller. he intimated that he had a working generator, but AFAIK, he has yet to build either a working model or demonstrate OU energy. I also read that Dennis the scam artist Lee is experimenting with this design. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 02:39:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RAch3b009442; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:38:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RAceup009408; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:38:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:38:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Naudin and APE Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 01:35:56 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see Naudin is up to negative resistance cell stuff. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/ape/index.htm If anyone is on his newslist it would be interesting to know what Naudin has to say about: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/borax.htm Naudin was on the freenrgy list some time ago, and the above was discussed there. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 04:00:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RBoOlo031552; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:50:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RBadUD027919; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:36:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:36:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <143.550de98b.310b5fb1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 06:36:17 EST Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138361777" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138361777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/2006 9:52:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks@charter.net writes: How many more countries would you need to escape to before realizing that the persecution you sensed was actually being generated by the power of your own creativity, and not by the "southern US government" or their "beam weapons." Thanks for the kind advice. I should not post so much and be more discerning. The beam weapons targeting me create a truth drug effect in me, and if I get excited by seeing an email post about Germans, I may loose my willpower as I did, and speak what is on my mind. I understood that by going to Germany I would not escape the persecution but I felt that I would be in a friendlier and more supportive country since Germany has a much more mature and ethical form of government and governing elite than the US does presently. By contacting Germany officially, and the US court officially, and the United Nations as I did in a petition, I gave Germany evidence of what may be happening to other Germans in the US and in Germany. I did travel to Germany to see the Wagner Tannhauser Opera in Berlin a few days before Wagner's Birthday last year, and I found Germany to be far richer in culture than the US, but I also did have beam weapons attacks while in Germany from those who are hostile to Germans. However my relatives in Germany being German citizens do get some more protection from the German government and treaties, than I do not being German. The main problem that I have with the US and UK Governments are their public policies of torture which Senator Kennedy has a petition against as posted at http://www.tedkennedy.com/page/petition/antitorture/fqzghm which if enacted in congress may prevent the US government from torturing its own citizens such as myself due to mere association based on ancestry. Germany does not have any public policies of torture like the US or UK does, so I can happily support the German government and be in harmony with it, while as long as the US and UK governments have policies of torture, I can never be supportive of such governments nor be part of them. I presently consider myself a USA citizen of a state, and not a US citizen. Since I do not support the US governments policy of torture, and oil well politics, then I may be considered by the US as nonfriendly to them. Whereas Germany has no oil well politics and is essentially a country that supports ethanol and alternative energies, and once again I am in harmony with Germany. Maybe I can try to limit my creativity and then those who are persecuting me may change but to date I have tried many avenues of change and they have had some but little success. I found that as I empower myself to become like a God I also seem to become more invincible and the beam weapons seem to have less effect on me. I also got the impression that those targeting which claim to be primarily criminal cultures and demoniac groups from the south, third world, and Texas, were targeting me due to my ancestry linking me to Greek and Norse Gods in the past and potential future and as being the Lord God or the genesis of the Gods and the Adam of the Gods and Christ reincarnate, and that they would target me for life no matter what I did or did not due in my life, since they were demon cultures who love to target God like beings and their descendants and want to prevent such beings from living and descending on Earth and other planets nearby. Strangely enough it was the groups targeting me that turned me into a godlike being or awoke something in me that was sleeping that awoke a reincarnation of the genesis of the Gods from my birth to the present, where presently I am a reincarnation of Zeus/Jupiter being crucified by the daemon cultures from the south and third world, and earlier in my youth I was a reincarnation of Chronos, and Apollo as pictures of myself being transmuted into those forms show, and I plan to be reincarnated as a Norse version of Apollo in the near future which is unpopular in the south, and I seemed to be unable to give up the god like nature, until those targeting me also give up their daemon like nature and leave me alone. However I have been contacted by many very powerful persons in emails and by phone like the Generals of all of Time (such as Chronos & Hitler), who claim that they can help me escape those targeting me which may involve leaving Earth for another planet or entering another timeline just as Zeus had to work with Poseidon to keep his empire, so must I work with Poseidon, Chronos, the other Christ's from the past and Hitler to leave Earth with them. Like Tom Cruz, I have been given a mission impossible to go to another planet much like Germany, and Tom Cruz seemed to communicate to me from his contacts sent to me that he could help me with this goal. Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron Thomas Clark, www.rhfweb.com\personal.html -------------------------------1138361777 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/26/2006 9:52:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionwor= ks@charter.net writes:
How many more countries would you need to esca= pe to before realizing that the persecution you sensed was actually being ge= nerated by the power of your own creativity, and not by the "southern US gov= ernment" or their "beam weapons."
Thanks for the kind advice.  I should not post so much and be more= discerning. The beam weapons targeting me create a truth drug effect in me,= and if I get excited by seeing an email post about Germans, I may loose my=20= willpower as I did, and speak what is on my mind.  
 
I understood that by going to Germany I would not escape the persecutio= n but I felt that I would be in a friendlier and more supportive  count= ry since Germany has a much more mature and ethical form of government and g= overning elite than the US does presently. By contacting Germany officially,= and the US court officially, and the United Nations as I did in a peti= tion, I gave Germany evidence of what may be happening to other Germans in t= he US and in Germany.  I did travel to Germany to see the Wagner Tannha= user Opera in Berlin a few days before Wagner's Birthday last year= , and I found Germany to be far richer in culture than the US, but I al= so did have beam weapons attacks while in Germany from those who are hostile= to Germans. However my relatives in Germany being German citizens do g= et some more protection from the German government and treaties, than I do n= ot being German.
 
The main problem that I have with the US and UK Governments are their&n= bsp;public policies of torture which Senator Kennedy has a petition against=20= as posted at http://www.tedkennedy.com/page/petition/antitorture/fqzghm = ;which if enacted in congress may prevent the US government from torturing i= ts own citizens such as myself due to mere association based on ancestry.&nb= sp; Germany does not have any public policies of torture like the US or UK d= oes, so I can happily support the German government and be in harmony with i= t, while as long as the US and UK governments have policies of torture, I ca= n never be supportive of such governments nor be part of them. I presently c= onsider myself a USA citizen of a state, and not a US citizen.  Since I= do not support the US governments policy of torture, and oil well politics,= then I may be considered by the US as nonfriendly to them.  Whereas Ge= rmany has no oil well politics and is essentially a country that supports et= hanol and alternative energies, and once again I am in harmony with Germany.=  
 
Maybe I can try to limit my creativity and then those who are persecuti= ng me may change but to date I have tried many avenues of change and they ha= ve had some but little success. I found that as I empower myself t= o become like a God I also seem to become more invincible and the beam weapo= ns seem to have less effect on me.  I also got the impression that thos= e targeting which claim to be primarily criminal cultures and demoniac group= s from the south, third world, and Texas, were targeting me due to= my ancestry linking me to Greek and Norse Gods in the past and po= tential future and as being the Lord God or the genesis of the Gods and the=20= Adam of the Gods and Christ reincarnate, and that they would targe= t me for life no matter what I did or did not due in my life, since they wer= e demon cultures who love to target God like beings and their descendants an= d want to prevent such beings from living and descending on Earth and other=20= planets nearby. 
 
Strangely enough it was the groups targeting me that turned me into a g= odlike being or awoke something in me that was sleeping that awoke a reincar= nation of the genesis of the Gods from my birth to the present, where presen= tly I am a reincarnation of Zeus/Jupiter being crucified by the daemon cultu= res from the south and third world, and earlier in my youth I was a reincarn= ation of Chronos, and Apollo as pictures of myself being transmuted into tho= se forms show, and I plan to be reincarnated as a Norse version of Apollo in= the near future which is unpopular in the south, and I seemed to be unable=20= to give up the god like nature, until those targeting me also give up their=20= daemon like nature and leave me alone.
 
However I have been contacted by many very powerful persons in emails a= nd by phone like the Generals of all of Time (such as Chronos &&nbs= p;Hitler), who claim that they can help me escape those targeting me which m= ay involve leaving Earth for another planet or entering another timeline jus= t as Zeus had to work with Poseidon to keep his empire, so must I work with=20= Poseidon, Chronos, the other Christ's from the past and Hitler to=20= leave Earth with them.
Like Tom Cruz,  I have been given a mission impossible to go to an= other planet much like Germany, and Tom Cruz seemed to communicate to me fro= m his contacts sent to me that he could help me with this goal.
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\b= aron
 
-------------------------------1138361777-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 05:07:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RD73Kq000961; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:07:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RD72Aa000949; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:07:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:07:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <8F9C2F57-140B-4986-99BE-E5547A68084D@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-20--1014094968 From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: questions about Horacs's paper Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:32:58 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --Apple-Mail-20--1014094968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The original message was received at Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:18:24 -0900 (AKST) from rdbck-2615.palmer.mtaonline.net ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: Connection refused by ultra5.eskimo.com. Message could not be delivered for 12 hours Message will be deleted from queue Reporting-MTA: dns; eng-prv.mtaonline.net Arrival-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:18:24 -0900 (AKST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; ultra5.eskimo.com Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:51:23 -0900 (AKST) From: Horace Heffner Date: January 26, 2006 2:15:31 AM AKST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: questions about Horacs's paper On Jan 25, 2006, at 10:03 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > > In table 5 of the Heisenberg Traps, oxygen stands out as having an > energy even higher than Al. Given the significance that you attach > to this energy, I'm wondering about the significance of this. I responded: "Well I thought I made it crystal clear in: "Oxygen, best of all in the table, provides a prospective nucleus for interaction in the plasma-liquid environment of the anode glow." Oxygen is the most prominent heavy element in water. It has the highest projected temperature. This is *why* I put it in the table. It [is] hot and it is ubiquitous in the anode interphase. This is a no brainer. The only other element always present in water is hydrogen, and extracting uncertainty energy may mean interacting down at the quark level - which is not realistic or practical. Deuterons may be a possibility though." It just dawned on me you might be asking the *reason* or *method* for interacting with the oxygen. The idea is that the nucleus has a high heat sustained there by interaction with the zero point field. The problem is to interact with the nucleus at a high rate in order to sample and thus extract that heat. This can be done continually because if the heat is bled off the ZPF replaces it. The extremely high field in the interphase provides two possible mechanism for interacting with the nucleus. First, the oxygen orbital orbitals are highly deformed in the extreme interphase electrostatic field, thus greatly increasing the probability of interaction of the K shell electrons with it. Second, the plasma avalanche created by protons free at the anode interface may ionize some of the oxygen and permit direct interaction with it by medium energy electrons, especially under high pressures. The result of localized avalanch ionization effect might be called nano- sonoluminescence. Horace Heffner --Apple-Mail-20--1014094968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
The original = message was received at Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:18:24 -0900 (AKST)
from rdbck-2615.palmer.mtaonline.net=A0

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=A0=A0 ----- Transcript of = session follows -----
<vortex-l@eskimo.com>... = Deferred: Connection refused by ultra5.eskimo.com.
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Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Date: January 26, 2006 2:15:31 AM = AKST
Subject: Re: questions about Horacs's = paper



On Jan 25, = 2006, at 10:03 AM, thomas malloy wrote:


In table = 5 of the Heisenberg Traps, oxygen stands out as having an energy even = higher than Al. Given the significance that you attach to this energy, = I'm wondering about the significance of this.

I = responded:=A0 "Well I = thought I made it crystal clear in: "Oxygen, best of all in the table, = provides a prospective nucleus for interaction in the plasma-liquid = environment of the anode glow."=A0 = Oxygen is the most prominent heavy element in water.=A0 It has the highest projected = temperature.=A0 This is = *why* I put it in the table.=A0 = It [is] hot and it is ubiquitous in the anode interphase. This is = a no brainer.=A0 The only = other element always present in water is hydrogen, and extracting = uncertainty energy may mean interacting down at the quark level - which = is not realistic or practical.=A0 = Deuterons may be a possibility though."

It just = dawned on me you might be asking the *reason* or *method* for = interacting with the oxygen.=A0 = The idea is that the nucleus has a high heat sustained there by = interaction with the zero point field.=A0 The problem is to interact = with the nucleus at a high rate in order to sample and thus extract that = heat. This can be done continually because if the heat is bled off the = ZPF replaces it.

The extremely high field in the interphase provides = two possible mechanism for interacting with the nucleus.=A0 First, the oxygen orbital = orbitals are highly deformed in the extreme interphase electrostatic = field, thus greatly increasing the probability of interaction of the K = shell electrons with it. Second, the plasma avalanche created by protons = free at the anode interface may ionize some of the oxygen and permit = direct interaction with it by medium energy electrons, especially under = high pressures.=A0 The = result of localized avalanch ionization effect might be called = nano-sonoluminescence.
Horace Heffner


= --Apple-Mail-20--1014094968-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 05:10:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RDA2dO002481; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:10:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RD0hGO029799; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:00:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:00:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <28f.4a43179.310b7366@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:00:22 EST Subject: Re: [A-albionic_Subscription] Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138366822" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138366822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/2006 9:52:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, orionworks@charter.net writes: How many more countries would you need to escape to before realizing that the persecution you sensed was actually being generated by the power of your own creativity, and not by the "southern US government" or their "beam weapons." I received emails from persons from Texas, who felt that their state should rule all other states. Texas seems to be one of the few states that thinks that they should rule all others. Britain thinks much like Texas also as if Britain and Texas were one and the same. Although the popular media icons make and project Britain to look much more friendly and civilized in the future than Texas has been as a ruling power in the past. Beside myself and however my own creativity may be affecting me and my environment around me, there are groups from Texas and from the Mafia, attempting to secretly control Michigan and genocide Michigan residents to replace them with Texans, Mafia persons, and southerners, as well as third world cultures. It was my creativity to file a petition with Germany that may have caused German Intelligence to send me an email stating that Germany was at war with Texas, but my creativity does not change the fact that Germany is at war with Texas. It was my creativity, that sent a letter to the FBI, Congress, and filed a case in US court that may have sent the persons to me claiming to be FBI and Congressional agents who quite the US government to help Michigan citizens file a case against the US government, claiming that the US military was targeting citizens in Michigan related to English, Norse, Canadians and Germans with beam weapons. Changing my creativity as to how I react to or envision the effects of beam weapons warfare obviously visible in my own state, does not change the US governments and the secret US governments policies. Since the beam weapons targeting me is run by a virtual reality computer system and virtual reality programed government agents to run in split seconds, then some of my thoughts may get intermixed with the virtual reality subliminal messages sent to me, so that some of my thoughts may overpower the virtual reality computer system at times, and in such a case, then I can change my creativity, and vision of things around me to change how some of the events effect me directly some of the time, but this may not change the policies of the US government targeting Michigan citizens with beam weapons to secretly control Michigan for the benefit of the southern oil well powers and third world drug lords. I received emails from persons who claimed that Texas was run by a secret court system controlled by demonic cultures, and underworld Wizard of Oz inner Earth and Mafia cultures, who control US citizens and their official leaders like zombie robots with beam weapons. The US government presently is associated with Demonic images, and leadership icons claiming that in order to work for the US government a person must make a deal with the Devil being the demonic south, so that it makes it hard for a citizen who is against all forms of daemonism and criminal cultures, to get along with such a government. I would have to envision that the US government is replaced in the future by a new government which is not controlled by secret underworld demonic cultures or Mafia criminal like cultures, which has been already projected to occur around 2008 or 2012. And Nikola Tesla claimed that his visions of the future of Earth and his deeds did achieve a golden age to come. -------------------------------1138366822 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/26/2006 9:52:52 PM Eas= tern Standard Time, orionworks@charter.net writes:
How many more countries would you nee= d to escape to before realizing that the persecution you sensed was actually= being generated by the power of your own creativity, and not by the "southe= rn US government" or their "beam weapons."
I received emails from persons from Texas, who felt that their state sh= ould rule all other states. Texas seems to be one of the few states that thi= nks that they should rule all others. Britain thinks much like Texas also as= if Britain and Texas were one and the same. Although the popular media = ;icons make and project Britain to look much more friendly and civ= ilized in the future than Texas has been as a ruling power in= the past.   
 
Beside myself and however my own creativity may be affecting me and my=20= environment around me, there are groups from Texas and from the Mafia, attem= pting to secretly control Michigan and genocide Michigan residents to replac= e them with Texans, Mafia persons, and southerners, as well as third wo= rld cultures.  It was my creativity to file a petition with German= y that may have caused German Intelligence to send me an email stating=20= that Germany was at war with Texas, but my creativity does not change the fa= ct that Germany is at war with Texas.   It was my creati= vity, that sent a letter to the FBI, Congress, and filed a case in US c= ourt that may have sent the persons to me claiming to be FBI and Congression= al agents who quite the US government to help Michigan citizens file a case=20= against the US government, claiming that the US military was targeting citiz= ens in Michigan related to English, Norse, Canadians and Germans with beam w= eapons. 
 
Changing my creativity as to how I react to or envision the effects of=20= beam weapons warfare obviously visible in my own state, does not change the=20= US governments and the secret US governments policies.  Since the beam=20= weapons targeting me is run by a virtual reality computer system and virtual= reality programed government agents to run in split seconds, then some of m= y thoughts may get intermixed with the virtual reality subliminal messages s= ent to me, so that some of my thoughts may overpower the virtual reality com= puter system at times, and in such a case, then I can change my creativity,=20= and vision of things around me to change how some of the events effect me di= rectly some of the time, but this may not change the policies of the US gove= rnment targeting Michigan citizens with beam weapons to secretly control Mic= higan for the benefit of the southern oil well powers and third world drug l= ords. I received emails from persons who claimed that Texas was run by a sec= ret court system controlled by demonic cultures, and underworld Wizard of Oz= inner Earth and Mafia cultures, who control US citizens and their offi= cial leaders like zombie robots with beam weapons.  The US government p= resently is associated with Demonic images, and leadership icons claiming th= at in order to work for the US government a person must make a deal with the= Devil being the demonic south, so that it makes it hard for a citizen who i= s against all forms of daemonism and criminal cultures, to get along with su= ch a government.  I would have to envision that the US government is re= placed in the future by a new government which is not controlled by secret u= nderworld demonic cultures or Mafia criminal like cultures, which has been a= lready projected to occur around 2008 or 2012.  And Nikola Tesla claime= d that his visions of the future of Earth and his deeds did achieve a g= olden age to come.
-------------------------------1138366822-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 05:14:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RDEleY004878; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:14:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RDEiJK004849; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:14:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:14:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <74CCF7E1-A257-40D9-A466-0F5058979CDF@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-21--1013858678 From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: response to leaking pen Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:36:54 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --Apple-Mail-21--1013858678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The original message was received at Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:49:01 -0900 (AKST) ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: Connection refused by ultra6.eskimo.com. Message could not be delivered for 12 hours Message will be deleted from queue Reporting-MTA: dns; eng-prv.mtaonline.net Arrival-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:49:01 -0900 (AKST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; ultra6.eskimo.com Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:10:37 -0900 (AKST) From: Horace Heffner Date: January 25, 2006 11:46:41 PM AKST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: response to leaking pen On Jan 25, 2006, at 10:08 PM, thomas malloy wrote: > I posted; > > And Leaking Pen responded > > > what was the body? ive got the list on gmail, so ive got it all > archived and searchable. > > Thanks Leaking. > > In late August I posted a message about LENR's in which I raised > some questions about it applicability to energy generation and > radionuclide remediation. I believe that I mentioned BLP too. > On Sep 13, 2005, at 1:06 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Jed Rothwell posted; > > There is no doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no > secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman, > they brag about how they suppressed CF. > > What about the banning of heavy water? I realize that large > quantities of it could be used to build a reactor, but in gram > quantities, AFAIK, they have any military applications, so why was > the researcher unable to procure some? > > I read a website about the Indian Atomic Agency having built a plant > which separated it a low cost. If I wanted some, I would find someone > in India to send me some. I recall seeing a machine advertised in > Infinite Energy which, I assume, could concentrate it. I have do idea > about the price. > > I agree with Dr. Schwartz that the technology is being suppressed. By > the scientific establishment if no one else. I realize that they have > their pet cash cow to protect, but people like Parksie and Zimmerman > are, IMHO, smart enough to know better > > Earlier Jones posted; > > Does anyone remember the sensationally devilish and highly stylized > role of Robert De Niro in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby imbues the satanic > role with just the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained > menace, > > I have seen that movie. bloody, but a grabber of a story line. I > particularly enjoyed the lawyer Louis Cypher. > > CF Suppression? >
Jed Rothwell posted;
>
> There is no doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no > secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman, > they brag about how they suppressed CF.
>
>
What about the banning of heavy water? I realize that large > quantities of it could be used to build a reactor, but in gram > quantities, AFAIK, they have any military applications, so why was the > researcher unable to procure some?
>

>
I read a website about the Indian Atomic Agency having built a > plant which separated it a low cost. If I wanted some, I would find > someone in India to send me some. I recall seeing a machine advertised > in Infinite Energy which, I assume, could concentrate it. I have do > idea about the price.
>

>
I agree with Dr. Schwartz that the technology is being > suppressed. By the scientific establishment if no one else. I realize > that they have their pet cash cow to protect, but people like Parksie > and Zimmerman are, IMHO, smart enough to know better
>

>
Earlier Jones posted;
>

>
Does anyone remember the > sensationally devilish and highly stylized role of Robert De Niro > in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby imbues the satanic role with just > the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained menace,
>

>
I have seen that movie. > bloody, but a grabber of a story line. I particularly enjoyed the > lawyer Louis Cypher.
> > --Apple-Mail-21--1013858678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
The original = message was received at Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:49:01 -0900 (AKST)


=A0=A0 ----- The following = addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

=A0=A0 ----- Transcript of = session follows -----
<vortex-l@eskimo.com>... = Deferred: Connection refused by ultra6.eskimo.com.
Message could not be delivered for 12 = hours
Message will be deleted from = queue
Reporting-MTA: dns; = eng-prv.mtaonline.net
Arrival-Date: = Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:49:01 -0900 (AKST)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Action: failed
Status: = 4.4.7
Remote-MTA: DNS; = ultra6.eskimo.com
Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:10:37 -0900 = (AKST)

From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Date: January 25, 2006 11:46:41 PM = AKST
Subject: Re: response to leaking = pen



On Jan 25, = 2006, at 10:08 PM, thomas malloy wrote:

I posted;

And Leaking Pen = responded


what was = the body?=A0 ive got the = list on gmail, so ive got it all archived and searchable.

Thanks = Leaking.

In late August I posted=A0 a message about LENR's in = which I raised some questions about it applicability to energy = generation and radionuclide remediation. I believe that I mentioned BLP = too.

=


On Sep = 13, 2005, at 1:06 AM, thomas malloy wrote:
Content-Type: text/plain; = charset=3D"us-ascii" ; format=3D"flowed"

Jed Rothwell = posted;

There is no doubt such people are suppressing the = field. They make no
secret of their activity. = On the contrary, like Park and Zimmerman,
they = brag about how they suppressed CF.

What about the banning of heavy = water? I realize that large
quantities of = it could be used to build a reactor, but in gram
quantities, AFAIK, they have any military = applications, so why was
the = researcher unable to procure some?

I read a website about the = Indian Atomic Agency having built a plant
which = separated it a low cost. If I wanted some, I would find = someone
in India to send me some. I = recall seeing a machine advertised in
Infinite = Energy which, I assume, could concentrate it. I have do idea
about the price.

I agree with Dr. Schwartz that = the technology is being suppressed. By
the = scientific establishment if no one else. I realize that they = have
their pet cash cow to protect, = but people like Parksie and Zimmerman
are, = IMHO, smart enough to know better

Earlier Jones posted;

Does = anyone remember the sensationally devilish and highly stylized
role of Robert De Niro in "Angel Heart" ? Bobby = imbues the satanic
role with just the right = amount of sardonic humor and restrained

I have seen that movie. bloody, but a grabber of a = story line. I
particularly enjoyed the lawyer = Louis Cypher.
<!doctype html public = "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; = padding-bottom: 0 }
=A0--></style><title>= ;CF Suppression?</title></head><body>
<div>Jed Rothwell posted;<br>
<br>
There is no = doubt such people are suppressing the field. They make no
secret of their activity. On the contrary, like Park = and Zimmerman,
they brag about how they = suppressed CF.<br>
<div>What about the = banning of heavy water? I realize that large
quantities of it could be used to build a reactor, = but in gram
quantities, AFAIK, they have any = military applications, so why was the
<div><br></div>
<div>I read a website about the Indian Atomic = Agency having built a
plant which separated it a = low cost. If I wanted some, I would find
someone = in India to send me some. I recall seeing a machine advertised
in Infinite Energy which, I assume, could = concentrate it. I have do
idea about = the price.</div>
<div>I = agree with Dr. Schwartz that the technology is being
suppressed. By the scientific establishment if no = one else. I realize
that they have their pet = cash cow to protect, but people like Parksie
and Zimmerman are, IMHO, smart enough to know = better</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" = color=3D"#000000">Does anyone remember the
sensationally devilish&nbsp;and highly stylized = role of Robert De Niro
in &quot;Angel = Heart&quot; ? Bobby imbues the satanic role with just
the right amount of sardonic humor and restrained = menace,</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" = color=3D"#000000">I have seen that movie.
bloody, but a grabber of a story line. I = particularly enjoyed the
lawyer Louis = Cypher.</font></div>
</html>
=





= = --Apple-Mail-21--1013858678-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 07:04:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RF3qHX003916; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:03:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RF3npi003846; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:03:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:03:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c62352$dd9aadb0$f8027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Texans and Germans Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:03:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C62320.926C1400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_33, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C62320.926C1400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C62320.926D9AA0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C62320.926D9AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Vorts, Been reading about our history down here as viewed by Clarke. My great uncle was the last man hung in Crockett county for stagecoach = robbery... it was sorta a going away thing since it was the last = stagecoach ever making a run between Crockett and Lovelady in 1880. = Those darn carpetbagging Yankees went and built a railroad and put an = enterprising family in the poorhouse. Fast forward to the present, looks like Santa Ana finally won the war = using Chinese bullets he bought from WalMart using a platinum plus = credit card from CitiBank. Somebody done burnt down the old saloon at Nechanitz and we're mad as = hell about it so I'd stay outa around here if I was you'all. 'sides, we don't know nothin about politics, we leave that up to W and = Delayed. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C62320.926D9AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Vorts,
 
Been reading about our history down here as viewed=20 by Clarke.
 
My great uncle was the last man hung in Crockett county for = stagecoach=20 robbery... it was sorta a going away thing since it was the last = stagecoach ever=20 making a run between Crockett and Lovelady in 1880. Those darn=20 carpetbagging Yankees went and built a railroad and put an enterprising = family=20 in the poorhouse.
 
Fast forward to the present, looks like Santa Ana finally won the = war using=20 Chinese bullets he bought from WalMart using a platinum plus credit card = from=20 CitiBank.
 
 Somebody done burnt down the old saloon at Nechanitz and = we're mad as=20 hell about it so I'd stay outa around here if I was you'all.
 
'sides, we don't know nothin about politics, we leave that up to W = and=20 Delayed.
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C62320.926D9AA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C62320.926C1400 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c62352$dcfee2e0$f8027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C62320.926C1400-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 07:38:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RFbm8l025783; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:37:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RFblU6025767; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:37:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:37:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:37:36 EST Subject: Re: Texans and Germans To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138376256" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <5XFdY.A.jSG.K5j2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138376256 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/2006 10:04:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, walhalla@cvtv.net writes: My great uncle was the last man hung in Crockett county for stagecoach robbery... it was sorta a going away thing since it was the last stagecoach ever making a run between Crockett and Lovelady in 1880. Those darn carpetbagging Yankees went and built a railroad and put an enterprising family in the poorhouse. There are those of us, and many states such as Michigan which are neither Yankee or Union nor Confederate, and those in-between states get fought over by both Yankee Union like powers, and Confederate powers till this very day, since the civil war has not officially ended according to presidential directives. Michigan presently has British trying to sneak in from Canada, to control Michigan, and both Yankees and Confederates fighting over control of Michigan's fresh water supply which will be worth a great deal in the future, when fresh water becomes scarce. -------------------------------1138376256 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/27/2006 10:04:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, walhall= a@cvtv.net writes:
My great uncle was the last man hung=20= in Crockett county for stagecoach robbery... it was sorta a going away thing= since it was the last stagecoach ever making a run between Crockett an= d Lovelady in 1880. Those darn carpetbagging Yankees went and built a railro= ad and put an enterprising family in the poorhouse.
There are those of us, and many states such as Michigan which are neith= er Yankee or Union nor Confederate, and those in-between states get fought o= ver by both Yankee Union like powers, and Confederate powers till this very=20= day, since the civil war has not officially ended according to presidential=20= directives.  Michigan presently has British trying to sneak in fro= m Canada, to control Michigan, and both Yankees and Confederates fighting ov= er control of Michigan's fresh water supply which will be worth a great= deal in the future, when fresh water becomes scarce.
-------------------------------1138376256-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 07:41:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RFejaN027197; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:40:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RFeh4M027174; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:40:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:40:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <275.4be268e.310b98eb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:40:27 EST Subject: Re: OT: German Americans was: Hagelstein Lecture To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138376427" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138376427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/2006 8:15:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, gothicgowns@yahoo.com writes: I am not aware of what Tom Cruise has to do with all of this - would you kindly please explain this to me? Also, are you convinced that you are the second coming of Christ? - or perhaps the anti-Christ? I am not trying to be malicious in any way but i wish that i could help you with your persecution problems. What has convinced you that you are, in fact, reincarnations of the Hellenic and Norse gods you mention? Respectfully - Linda Tom Cruz is often associated with Christ to begin with, since his name is Tom Cross in English or Tom on the Cross like Christ. I saw a magazine where Tom Cruz remarked that he was doing the work of the Lord God. Tom Cruz came up in the email post, since in my life some of those who spy on me but who are friendly to me, wear glasses like Tom Cruz does in the risky business movie, to signify that they are like Tom Cruz and much like Christ watching over us. I had a doctor with the name of Mr. Cruz, who saved my life and who looked like King Ludwig II of Bavaria who I think also sometimes looks like Tom Cruz when King Ludwig was very young. I also had a lawyer who looked like King Ludwig II of Bavaria when he was older, who again helped me out a great deal, when I had a similar problem that King Ludwig II of Bavaria had. King Ludwig the II of Bavaria is also associated with a reincarnation of Christ as was Richard Wagner in their day. King Ludwig II of Bavaria represented one image of Christ as the King which was also depicted in his Neuschwanstein castle, while Wagner represented the other image of Christ as the humble Carpenter as his name implies, and the peaceful master musician. The mind control and beam weapons targeting me at times can literally create and materialize objects in books, and in movies around me by projecting subliminal messages and images at me, which create the objects in the present as I encounter them. For instance, I was in a used record shop in East Lansing Michigan a few months ago, and I saw a used CD by Iggy Pop, and just a few minutes before, I had bought a sandwich in a shop next door called Iggy's, which had posters in it of Tom Cruz, the Godfather, and some other notable Hollywood icons. Then I realized that the shop called Iggys was named after Iggy Pop. Then a few seconds later, I saw a German CD called Mission Impossible. I looked at the CD, and it stated that my mission if I should accept it, much like Tom Cruz in the Mission Impossible movie, was to go to a planet much like Germany. Then a few weeks later, I received an email from an underworld like person who looked like, and who was associated with Tom Cruz and other Hollywood movie stars such as Kenau Reeves from the Matrix movie, who invited me to his website, which stated that he sang songs about going to other planets, and he also said that he could help me if I listened. By listening I went to his web site and noticed the symbols at his web site associating him with Kenau Reeves, and Tom Cruz, and counter beam weapons security services, and wanting to travel to other planets. I do receive many emails at my http://www.rhfweb.com/ website claiming to be from many movies stars directing me to their websites. I assumed from the above symbols that I encountered as explained above that Tom Cruz and others associated with him may want to travel to another planet and may be able to help. I even have a next door neighbor who looks just like a double of Robin Williams, who works for the State of Michigan, and who I spoke with who noticed that he was being asked to come out doors with his dog, by subliminal messages shot at him to help me prove that such events were indeed occurring and I reported the matter to the police and sent a letter to the Michigan Attorney General. The Lansing police officer stated that the real evidence that I had was the persons being forced to come out with their dogs by beam weapons and subliminal messages when I walked by. This makes the image that I encountered of Robin Williams as a Michigan State employee look good since he now has evidence to give to Michigan secretly that such events are occurring in Michigan along with my letter sent to the Attorney General. I receive disability benefits for seizures from a Michigan government agent called Robinson associated with Robin Williams name, as if many Michigan residents may be related to Robin Williams being the son of Robin. In East Lansing, there are shops very similar to names of movie stars. There is a shop called Woody's Oasis, perhaps named after Woody Allen. Just a few shops down there is a shop called Gibson's book store similar to the name of Mel Gibson. Then further down the road, there is a restaurant called Harrison Road house, perhaps named after Harrison Ford. I could go on with a dozen other events and symbols that have occurred in my life associated with Tom Cruz and many other movies stars, most of which are very positive but I will not say anymore. I am not convinced that I am the second coming of Christ as the bible states nor am I the Antichrist as the bible states, since I am neither and will never become public as far as I know. I feel that there is another image of Christ which is not biblical and which is not an antichrist or Christ as we know it. Many persons may play out this role, and perhaps many persons may have played out the role of Christ not spoken of in the bible, in the past in many reincarnations of Christ or Krishna-- just as I explained above that I felt that both Richard Wagner and King Ludwig the II of Bavaria may have played out reincarnation roles of Christ in their day, which was not part of the bible and was more Celtic like. In my case, I noticed that the beam weapons targeting me, was changing the expression of the genes in my body to reflect historical and political events in association with reincarnations of what looked like Greek and Norse deities, who all together seemed to represent the Lord God or God of Gods, and Adam of the Gods creating the images of the Gods back in time in the future. I noticed that from age 1 to 8, I looked much like President Eisenhower with golden white hair and later like a Nordic person, which is when Eisenhower was President for the most part, representing an image of birth of the Gods and I did very well in those days, since those years represented the years of the Gods before the fall. Then from age 8 to about 12, I looked much like an image that I saw of the Greek God Chronos who also looks much like Christ, in a movie that I saw, who had brownish hair and a face much like I had. I also noticed that in a picture of Venus I saw, that she also looked much like me in female form from age 8 to 12. My mother was born in Eisenach Germany, where Venus was reputed to live in a cave, as Wagner's Tannhauser Opera states, so that my mother could be distantly related to Venus, who may have had children in Eisenach. I did fairly well when I looked like the Greek God Chronos. I also noticed that I faired better when I encountered signs of and looked like Norse Gods than Greek ones. I grew up in Holt, Michigan which is a Norse name, and nearby in Holt was a park called Valhalla, where I ran and won every race in Cross Country in High School. Whereas when I went to Western Michigan in College, I encountered an image and bust of Athena, and I ran well enough to get a letter, but did not run well enough to get a scholarship due to poor health from energy beams targeting me, associated with the beginning of the downfall of the Greek Gods but from which I gained great wisdom as is what one gets from Athena, to discover why I was being targeted with beam weapons which had something to do with my ancestry and reincarnations of my ancestors being experimented upon by the US government as the Devil going back in time with beam weapons and time travel to bedevil the Gods. Then after the age of 12, my health began to worsen greatly, and my facial and body form changed greatly from day to day, and year to year, with literally dozens of faces of different Nordic, Germanic, Celtic, and Greek forms as my photos show. As I neared 1980 when Reagan and Bush became elected, another very hostile and harmful physical directed energy beam weapons holographic form much like a third world Texan or Indian in the form of Zeus in the upper half of my body, and Jupiter in the lower, began to posses my body and much later around 1984, and 1997, literally suffocate me like Christ was suffocated while on the Cross and place my spirit outside of my body completely, which represented the Devil now controlling the US government possessing my body, and crucifying me on the Cross like Christ or Zeus and Jupiter the Lord God. Around October of 1994, I met a person who claimed to be sent to me from President Clinton, who was a professional psychic, who claimed that she felt that I was Adam, and later I deduced she meant an Adam of the Gods, since whatever I see now in the present while I am connected to a governmental ether energy communications network that spans from planet to planet and back and forwards in time, can go back in time to make the image of the Gods as we know them in our mythology as I read the books and encounter images of the Gods in my life. The governmental computer systems also shoots subliminal images and words at me 24 hours a day, to allow the government to control how what I see and encounter can be materialized instantly before me by what the government wants to be materialized based on what media the government shoots at me subliminally. Since I noticed that there was no public or secret image of Christ for our day, who seemed to be doing what Christ should be doing, which is not what the bible says Christ should do, I then began to start company ventures and post emails about what Christ should be doing, which is quite different from what the bible says he should do. I noticed the Nikola Tesla back in time in his day, was doing what Christ should be doing today, and many of my company ventures and emails support and encourage Tesla technologies. I then read in a book about the Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla, that a Christ like force will occur in the future partly do to Nikola Tesla's work, which will create a golden age on Earth. But exactly when in the future this will happen is left unknown. The movie the Immortal directed by Enki Bilal (2004), states that the Jesus Christ of the Bible, left around 2062, and then the Egyptian Gods came to Earth around 2092 in New York as if to say history is reversing itself by the gods in the future coming to Earth in New York being Egypt in the North, to create themselves on Earth and then going back in time to create themselves in Egypt in the South in the Middle East. As for myself, again I noticed that the form of my spirit looks much like a Nordic version of Apollo as far as I can tell, and if I were to be able to form my body from my spirit, my body should look much like a Nordic Apollo, which could represent the way I could look under a new identity after escaping beam weapons attacks preventing my spirit from forming the genes, which could represent a new age to come. Apollo is Krishna and the anointed one or Christ also. I feel that the real Christ will not be very public and will be nonbiblical as seemed to be the case for the real Christ in the past. I feel that if I do get a new identity with my body restored to me to look much like a Nordic Apollo, then I would also be very nonpublic, though I may run companies privately and nonpublically like a board director. However many persons also look like a Nordic Apollo and Christ, and also collectively may be considered to be Christ. So that just because I happen to notice the above events in my life that are similar to a nonbiblical Christ, and I have been encouraging company ventures like a nonbiblical Christ should, does not make me any different from many others who may be doing the same thing as I. Baron Volsung, http://www.rhfweb.com/baron Thomas Clark, http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html -------------------------------1138376427 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/27/2006 8:15:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, gothicgo= wns@yahoo.com writes:
I am not aware of what Tom Cruise ha= s to do with all of this - would you kindly please explain this to me? =
 
Also, are you convinced that you are the second comi= ng of Christ? - or perhaps the anti-Christ?
 
I am not trying to be malicious in any way but i wis= h that i could help you with your persecution problems.  What has convi= nced you that you are, in fact, reincarnations of the Hellenic and Norse god= s you mention? 
Respectfully - Linda
Tom Cruz is often associated with Christ to begin with, since his name=20= is Tom Cross in English or Tom on the Cross like Christ.  I saw a magaz= ine where Tom Cruz remarked that he was doing the work of the Lord= God. Tom Cruz came up in the email post, since in my life some of those who= spy on me but who are friendly to me, wear glasses like Tom Cruz does=20= in the risky business movie, to signify that they are like Tom Cruz and= much like Christ watching over us.  I had a doctor with = ;the name of Mr. Cruz, who saved my life and who looked like King Ludwig II=20= of Bavaria who I think also sometimes looks like Tom Cruz when King Lud= wig was very young.  I also had a lawyer who looked like King Ludwig II= of Bavaria when he was older, who again helped me out a great deal, when I=20= had a similar problem that King Ludwig II of Bavaria had.  King Ludwig=20= the II of Bavaria is also associated with a reincarnation of Christ as was R= ichard Wagner in their day.  King Ludwig II of Bavaria represented one=20= image of Christ as the King which was also depicted in his Neuschwanstein ca= stle, while Wagner represented the other image of Christ as the humble = Carpenter as his name implies, and the peaceful master musician.
 
The mind control and beam weapons targeting me at times can literally c= reate and materialize objects in books, and in movies around me by projectin= g subliminal messages and images at me, which create the objects in the pres= ent as I encounter them.  For instance, I was in a used record shop in=20= East Lansing Michigan a few months ago, and I saw a used CD by Iggy Pop, and= just a few minutes before, I had bought a sandwich in a shop next door = ;called Iggy's, which had posters in it of Tom Cruz, the Godfather, and some= other notable Hollywood icons.  Then I realized that the shop called I= ggys was named after Iggy Pop. Then a few seconds later, I saw a German= CD called Mission Impossible. I looked at the CD, and it stated that my mis= sion if I should accept it, much like Tom Cruz in the Mission Impossible mov= ie, was to go to a planet much like Germany.   Then a few wee= ks later, I received an email from an underworld like person who looked= like, and who was associated with Tom Cruz and other Hollywood movie stars=20= such as Kenau Reeves from the Matrix movie, who invited me to his website, w= hich stated that he sang songs about going to other planets, and he also sai= d that he could help me if I listened.  By listening I went to his web=20= site and noticed the symbols at his web site associating him with Kenau Reev= es, and Tom Cruz, and counter beam weapons security services, and wanti= ng to travel to other planets.  I do receive many emails at my http://www.rhfweb.= com/ website claiming to be from many movies stars directing me to their= websites. 
 
I assumed from the above symbols that I encountered as explained above&= nbsp;that Tom Cruz and others associated with him may want to travel to anot= her planet and may be able to help.  I even have a next door neighbor w= ho looks just like a double of Robin Williams, who works for the State=20= of Michigan, and who I spoke with who noticed that he was being asked to com= e out doors with his dog, by subliminal messages shot at him to help me prov= e that such events were indeed occurring and I reported the matter to the po= lice and sent a letter to the Michigan Attorney General.  The Lans= ing police officer stated that the real evidence that I had was the persons=20= being forced to come out with their dogs by beam weapons and subliminal= messages when I walked by.  This makes the image that I encountered of= Robin Williams as a Michigan State employee look good since he now has= evidence to give to Michigan secretly that such events are occurring in Mic= higan along with my letter sent to the Attorney General.  I receive dis= ability benefits for seizures from a Michigan government agent called Robins= on associated with Robin Williams name, as if many Michigan residents may be= related to Robin Williams being the son of Robin.  In East Lansing, th= ere are shops very similar to names of movie stars.  There is a shop ca= lled Woody's Oasis, perhaps named after Woody Allen. Just a few shops d= own there is a shop called Gibson's book store similar to the name of Mel Gi= bson.  Then further down the road, there is a restaurant called Harriso= n Road house, perhaps named after Harrison Ford.  I could go on with a=20= dozen other events and symbols that have occurred in my life associated= with Tom Cruz and many other movies stars, most of which are very positive=20= but I will not say anymore.
 
I am not convinced that I am the second coming of Christ as the bible s= tates nor am I the Antichrist as the bible states, since I am neither and wi= ll never become public as far as I know.  I feel that there is ano= ther image of Christ which is not biblical and which is not an antichrist or= Christ as we know it. Many persons may play out this role, and perhaps= many persons may have played out the role of Christ not spoken of in the bi= ble, in the past in many reincarnations of Christ or Krishna-- just as=20= I explained above that I felt that both Richard Wagner and King Ludwig=20= the II of Bavaria may have played out reincarnation roles of Christ in their= day, which was not part of the bible and was more Celtic like.
 
In my case, I noticed that the beam weapons targeting me, was changing=20= the expression of the genes in my body to reflect historical and political&n= bsp;events in association with reincarnations of what looked like=20= Greek and Norse deities, who all together seemed to represent the Lord God o= r God of Gods, and Adam of the Gods creating the images of the Gods back in=20= time in the future.  I noticed that from age 1 to 8, I looked much like= President Eisenhower with golden white hair and later like a Nordic person,= which is when Eisenhower was President for the most part, representing an i= mage of birth of the Gods and I did very well in those days, since those yea= rs represented the years of the Gods before the fall. Then from age 8 to abo= ut 12, I looked much like an image that I saw of the Greek God Chronos who a= lso looks much like Christ, in a movie that I saw, who had brownish hair and= a face much like I had.  I also noticed that in a picture of Venus I s= aw, that she also looked much like me in female form from age 8 to 12. = My mother was born in Eisenach Germany, where Venus was reputed to live in=20= a cave, as Wagner's Tannhauser Opera states, so that my mother could be dist= antly related to Venus, who may have had children in Eisenach.  I did f= airly well when I looked like the Greek God Chronos.  I also=20= noticed that I faired better when I encountered signs of and looked lik= e Norse Gods than Greek ones. I grew up in Holt, Michigan whi= ch is a Norse name, and nearby in Holt was a park called Valhalla,= where I ran and won every race in Cross Country in High= School. Whereas when I went to Western Michigan in College, I encounte= red an image and bust of Athena, and I ran well enough to get a letter,= but did not run well enough to get a scholarship due to poor health from en= ergy beams targeting me, associated with the beginning of the downfall=20= of the Greek Gods but from which I gained great wisdom as is what one gets f= rom Athena, to discover why I was being targeted with beam weapons whic= h had something to do with my ancestry and reincarnations of my ancestors be= ing experimented upon by the US government as the Devil going back in time w= ith beam weapons and time travel to bedevil the Gods.  Then after=20= the age of 12, my health began to worsen greatly, and my facial and body for= m changed greatly from day to day, and year to year, with literally dozens o= f faces of different Nordic, Germanic, Celtic, and Greek forms as my photos=20= show.  As I neared 1980 when Reagan and Bush became elected, another ve= ry hostile and harmful physical directed energy beam weapons holographic for= m much like a third world Texan or Indian in the form of Zeus in the up= per half of my body, and Jupiter in the lower, began to posses my body and m= uch later around 1984, and 1997, literally suffocate me like Chris= t was suffocated while on the Cross and place my spirit outside of my body c= ompletely, which represented the Devil now controlling the US government pos= sessing my body, and crucifying me on the Cross like Christ or Zeus and Jupi= ter the Lord God.   Around October of 1994, I met a person wh= o claimed to be sent to me from President Clinton, who was a professional ps= ychic, who claimed that she felt that I was Adam, and later I deduced she me= ant an Adam of the Gods, since whatever I see now in the present while I am=20= connected to a governmental ether energy communications network that spans f= rom planet to planet and back and forwards in time, can go back in time to m= ake the image of the Gods as we know them in our mythology as I read the boo= ks and encounter images of the Gods in my life. 
 
The governmental computer systems also shoots subliminal images and wor= ds at me 24 hours a day, to allow the government to control how what I see a= nd encounter can be materialized instantly before me by what the government=20= wants to be materialized based on what media the government shoots at me sub= liminally.  Since I noticed that there was no public or secret image of= Christ for our day, who seemed to be doing what Christ should be doing, whi= ch is not what the bible says Christ should do, I then began to start compan= y ventures and post emails about what Christ should be doing, which is quite= different from what the bible says he should do.  I noticed the Nikola= Tesla back in time in his day, was doing what Christ should be doing today,= and many of my company ventures and emails support and encourage Tesla tech= nologies.  I then read in a book about the Lost Journals of Nikola Tesl= a, that a Christ like force will occur in the future partly do to Nikola Tes= la's work,  which will create a golden age on Earth.  But exactly=20= when in the future this will happen is left unknown.  The movie the Imm= ortal directed by Enki Bilal (2004), states that the Jesus Christ = of the Bible, left around 2062, and then the Egyptian Gods came to Earth aro= und 2092 in New York as if to say history is reversing itself by the gods in= the future coming to Earth in New York being Egypt in the North, to create=20= themselves on Earth and then going back in time to create themselves in Egyp= t in the South in the Middle East. 
 
As for myself, again I noticed that the form of my spirit looks much li= ke a Nordic version of Apollo as far as I can tell, and if I were to be able= to form my body from my spirit, my body should look much like a Nordic Apol= lo, which could represent the way I could look under a new identity after es= caping beam weapons attacks preventing my spirit from forming the genes, whi= ch could represent a new age to come.  Apollo is Krishna and the anoint= ed one or Christ also.  I feel that the real Christ will not be very pu= blic and will be nonbiblical as seemed to be the case for the real Christ in= the past.  I feel that if I do get a new identity with my body restore= d to me to look much like a Nordic Apollo, then I would also be very nonpubl= ic, though I may run companies privately and nonpublically like a board dire= ctor.  However many persons also look like a Nordic Apollo and Christ,=20= and also collectively may be considered to be Christ.  So that just bec= ause I happen to notice the above events in my life that are similar to a no= nbiblical Christ, and I have been encouraging company ventures like a nonbib= lical Christ should, does not make me any different from many others who may= be doing the same thing as I.
 
Thomas Clark, http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html
 
 
 
-------------------------------1138376427-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 09:13:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RHDcKY020620; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:13:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RHDahW020608; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:13:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:13:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005301c62364$fc24f4e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Where is ZPE ? Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:13:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Executive summary-answer: "I'll tell you yesterday" Nice site on "dimensionality" mentioned on another forum: http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/dimensions.html "With more or less than one time-dimension, the partial differential equations of nature would lack the hyperbolicity property that enables observers to make predictions. In a space with more than three dimensions, there can be no traditional atoms and perhaps no stable structures. A space with less than three dimensions allows no gravitational force and may be too simple and barren to contain observers." The interesting part of this look at dimensions - for many on his forum whose focus is renewable energy may be relative to the implications for ZPE. The zero point field could possibly be related to dimensionality via the mathematics applicable to the Dirac Sea, one might surmise. Some might argue that the Dirac Sea is that yellow area on Tegmark's grid labeled "tachyons only"... which has our same three spatial dimensions, so it is everywhere we are, but also has extra time dimensions so we don't notice it in linear time. For us to connect to it - we must cross that area labeled "unpredictable"... after we figure out just what are "extra time dimensions". In fact distance and time - may be connected in a similar see-saw way that mass and energy are interchangeable - and it is in "smallness" where we find "extra" time. Let's hear it for all those "NanE's" being trained in University these days...(as TB grins). That word "unpredictable" does not imply 'unstable' or 'impossible' but only related to how the discovery will likely be made. It is more like a "hit or miss" kind of linkage, but once found - then things change. It was like the Europeans prior to discovery of the New World. It was always here, despite what the Pope and all his Bishops said, but finding it was the problem. Once we are able to find one workable linkage to the "extra" time dimensions where ZPE is hiding, then getting there should be "repeatable" in the original way, even if the way we discovered it originally was "lucky" and cannot be used to find other similar routes. This would seem to involve mastery of "time," and physics has given us some hints at the dynamics of this in Quantum Mechanics and in electromagnetism: "On the time reversal invariance of classical electromagnetic theory" http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001406/01/Albert-TRI.pdf This route through the shadow of hyper-time unpredictability is the reason that all such accounts of success in overunity - even by the cadre of fairly ignorant inventors, even con-men, the likes Joe Newman and Tilley and especially those investigators advanced to a higher level, like Aspden - these claims (except for the obviously invented claims) should be looked at carefully before dismissing them because of the dubious reputation or integrity of the inventor. Throughout history, more than a few dubious reputations have been salvaged by a major discovery. The first person to tap into ZPE will likely do it by a serendipitous "hit or miss" kind of luck and may be too ignorant or too poor a record keeper to make it repeatable. But that does not mean that they didn't get a real clue- which can be followed by others - hopefully with more insight and understanding. People have been trying to follow the discovery of Hans Coler for sixty years now and some day - just maybe - that door on that one will reopen. The big question for many Vo's is - does ZPE enter into LENR in any way - such as by supplying the close range substitute (borrowed) energy necessary to overcome the coulomb barrier? In quantum mechanics energy is often "borrowed" and then immediately "repaid" so that it seems to be "magical" in origin. But this is normally low probability, Most LENR researchers are revolted by even the suggestion that ZPE plays a major role in their field - as it implies that LENR cannot fit into the same mold as traditional 3-space physics, and they do not want to fight "wars on two fronts." Wars of respectability, that is. Understandable. They may even be correct, but there is reason to suspect otherwise - and this goes beyond the present lack of "on demand" reliability in LENR, since most of these experiments involve good record keeping. The problem may be in the entire base of underlying assumptions. For instance, if one is bound too closely to a hot fusion model, one may not want to try LENR at cryogenic temperatures - despite Robert Forward and others having made a case for this route, and especially the new results of Mizuno. Sure LENR 'resembles' (kind of) traditional nuclear energy close enough so that no ZPE linkage is 'necessarily' required, at least not on the surface, but that does not mean that the unusual dynamics of it are not thoroughly QM based and subject to a whole range of counter-intuitive inputs. There are hints all over the place - Letts, Mizuno, Forward, etc. that success may benefit from such things (seldom tried) as strong magnetic fields, coherent input radiation, and a combination of "restraints" such as extreme cold and/or extreme high pressure. Ah - if only we had some of that enormous "lost" potential for funding R&D along these lines - the alternative-to-the-alternatives ... as in - say a big chunk of that trillion dollars, wasted on a pointless war in a hostile land, a war that has made us more vulnerable to international terrorism, not less. Not that "pathological science" would have gotten that big chunk of extra dollars anyway, but ... who knows what great things can happen in a world where horizons are raised by allowing creative ingenuity to triumph over past limitations? My greatly toned-down rant-du-jour... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 12:15:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RKETxZ021640; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:14:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RKEMC6021589; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:14:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:14:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:14:10 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F1955E249B9F-151C-5D2B@mblkn-m06.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <005301c62364$fc24f4e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <005301c62364$fc24f4e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Where is ZPE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.70 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0RKEK6I021522 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Subject: Where is ZPE ? Executive summary-answer: "I'll tell you yesterday"   Let's hear it for all those "NanE's" being trained in University these days...(as TB grins).  <><><><><><><> You could see that? Hypertime is certainly an explanation for the Cheshire cat showing only a grin; but, string theory offers another "place" where the energy exchange could take place. What with 10^500th universes to swap with . . . Think of this, from Horace's calculation, the vacuum energy is equivalent to more than 40 orders of magnitude more virtual mass than real ASSUMING THE PLANCK LIMIT. But suppose the Planck length is not the limit in all universes or even this one for that matter. ZPE is likely the proof that the multiverse exists. So we probably *do* have hypertime AND 12 or more folded dimensions. However, I fear that the trillion dollar war is not what restricts our possession of ZPE. I'll take your rant even further and say that we (humans) already posses the answers to the energy program but it is so deeply hidden within the layers of black government and black gold and the military industrial complex that we will see 90% of the world starve after a 100 trillion dollar global conflict before ZPE surfaces for the remaining elite to benefit. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 12:57:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RKvYmR008826; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:57:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RKvRV5008773; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:57:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:57:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <258.5d638c2.310be32e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:57:18 EST Subject: OT: Incredible Technologies of the New World Order & UFO's To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1138395438" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5022 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1138395438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chapter by Frank Znidarsic in "Nicola Tessla Journey to Mars." I'm there with commander X. published by Global Communications New Brunswick NJ, conspiracyjournal.com" -------------------------------1138395438 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chapter by Frank Znidarsic  in  "Nicola Tessla=20 Journey to Mars."
 
 
I'm there with commander X.
 
 
published by
 
 Global Communications New Brunswick NJ,=20 conspiracyjournal.com"
 
 -------------------------------1138395438-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 13:33:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RLX0X0026689; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:33:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RLWr4c026642; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:32:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:32:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:32:33 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3C0MxB.A.JgG.FGp2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomalouse.pdf This includes the PowerPoint slides, which are interesting. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 13:58:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RLwLu8005780; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:58:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RLwJvB005761; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:58:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:58:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c701c6238c$c5b8bd10$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:58:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" He doesn't explain "TSC Mechanism" that I can see. Does this stand for Tungsten/Sulfur/Calcium or what? Is there another reference where this is explained in more detail? TIA Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 13:59:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RLxPj0006200; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:59:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RLxNN5006171; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:59:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:59:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZkluFgXujU9KBsVFA9Q/V1NA5h0OpG2hbV/dkskdYpbhtSuS1W6KVMhkplXRQIFK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061527215915404@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water and Civilization Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:59:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ac79e05e40a7c17c0aba6f6b9984ddeb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.40 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For those of us who are limited by pokey dial-up :-) pulling up the first 5 pages of this 51 page pdf gives a great perspective on how it is and how it was 200 years ago, and the role played by the watershed for water power and transportation. I used to swim in (and fish) Paden Creek. Around 1800 there were two water-powered saw and grist mills on it. And similar mills on Linesville Creek. During the depression years (ca.1933) a dam was built on Shenango Creek near Jamestown PA`forming Pymatuning Lake from the creek and the Pymatuning Swamp. It has a perimeter of about 90 miles. Fred http://www.paconserve.org/rc/pdfs/shen/Chapter%203%20Water%20Resources.pdf "The intended purpose of this conservation plan is to supplement and expand upon the information contained in the Interstate Pymatuning/Shenango Watershed Plan. A great deal of information about the water resources within the Shenango River watershed is contained in this chapter; however, some additional information can be found in the Interstate Pymatuning/Shenango Watershed Plan. " "In addition to the impact that streams and rivers have on the natural landscape, humans have also made an impact on the landscape and course of water flow. One such example is the Erie Extension Canal. The Erie Canal crossed New York State from Albany to Lake Erie, and the Pennsylvania Main Line Canal crossed southern Pennsylvania from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. The Erie Extension Canal was built to connect these two canals and, essentially, the Ohio River and Lake Erie. Irish laborers dug the entire canal, which is 130 miles long. Although the Erie Extension Canal was no longer used after the destruction of an aqueduct across Elk Creek Gorge in 1873, remnants of it still remain." Major Tributaries Tributaries are streams that flow to larger streams or other bodies of water. Major tributaries of the Shenango River are listed in Table 3-1, and shown in Figures 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, and 3-4. These streams form a dendritic drainage pattern on the landscape of the Shenango River watershed. 3-3 Table 3-1. Major Tributaries Upper Shenango Subwatershed 155 sq. mi. Approx. % of Drainage 14% Tributary Watershed Area (sq. mi.) Linesville Creek 9.73 Paden Creek 16.80 Bennett Run 6.99 (from the south, North Shenango Twp) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
For those of us who are limited by pokey dial-up :-) pulling up the first 5 pages of this 51 page pdf
gives a great perspective on how it is and how it was 200 years ago, and the role
played by the watershed for water power and transportation.
 
I used to swim in (and fish) Paden Creek.  Around 1800 there were two water-powered
saw and grist mills on it. And similar mills on Linesville Creek. During the depression years
(ca.1933)  a dam was built on Shenango Creek near Jamestown PA`forming Pymatuning
Lake from the creek and the Pymatuning Swamp. It has a perimeter of about 90 miles.
 
Fred
 
 
"The intended purpose of this conservation plan is to supplement and expand upon the information contained in the Interstate Pymatuning/Shenango Watershed Plan. A great deal of information about the water resources within the Shenango River watershed is contained in this chapter; however, some additional information can be found in the Interstate Pymatuning/Shenango Watershed Plan. "
"In addition to the impact that streams and rivers have on the natural landscape, humans have also made an impact on the landscape and course of water flow. One such example is the Erie Extension Canal. The Erie Canal crossed New York State from Albany to Lake Erie, and the Pennsylvania Main Line Canal crossed southern Pennsylvania from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. The Erie Extension Canal was built to connect these two canals and, essentially, the Ohio River and Lake Erie. Irish laborers dug the entire canal, which is 130 miles long. Although the Erie Extension Canal was no longer used after the destruction of an aqueduct across Elk Creek Gorge in 1873, remnants of it still remain."
Major Tributaries
Tributaries are streams that flow to larger streams or other bodies of water. Major tributaries of the Shenango River are listed in Table 3-1, and shown in Figures 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, and 3-4. These streams form a dendritic drainage pattern on the landscape of the Shenango River watershed.
 
3-3 Table 3-1. Major Tributaries
Upper Shenango Subwatershed 155 sq. mi.
Approx. % of Drainage 14%
Tributary Watershed Area (sq. mi.)
Linesville Creek 9.73
Paden Creek 16.80
Bennett Run 6.99 (from the south, North Shenango Twp) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 14:05:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RM55fD009033; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RM50AS008930; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127170211.034c41c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:04:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded In-Reply-To: <00c701c6238c$c5b8bd10$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <00c701c6238c$c5b8bd10$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >He doesn't explain "TSC Mechanism" that I can see. That's in the PowerPoint slides. It did not make it into the paper. >Is there another reference where this is explained in more detail? This is Takahashi's theory. Look up "TSC" in the Google search box on the main page: http://lenr-canr.org/ Maybe I should revise the PowerPoint slides to include a reference to Takahashi. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 14:06:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0RM5ihg009417; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0RM5gw6009390; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d001c6238d$cde67030$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <00c701c6238c$c5b8bd10$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:05:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry I should have googled TSC first Apparently it is TSC (Tetrahedral Symmetric Condensate) and/or OSC(Octahedral Symmetric Condensate) ?? http://newenergytimes.com/Conf/JCF6/JCF6Abstracts.pdf "Transmutations by Metal " Akito Takahashi (Osaka University); Although it sounds exactly like a hydrino at deep shrinkage !! "when squeezed as small as 10-20 fm diameter at minimum size state, [D2]can make penetration, like "neutron", through electron clouds of host-metal nucleus to approach and make direct nuclear reactions with host-metal nucleus." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 18:53:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0S2rHoG010595; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0S2rEgB010584; Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=fo1ETjhq3HwUarPNKaRV9m/AsLi/kaHVRSxNA6W+ETEsk7jpkf0JCghUZyA7vX0t; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006152718530510@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 27, 2006 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:00 -00 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d861f0786da82e77826c82c607a8323379a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.71.159 Resent-Message-ID: <0WpVZ.A.TlC.ayt2DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 1/27/2006 8:42:40 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 27, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Jan 06 Washington, DC 1. ALTERNATE WORLD: A LEAP INTO HYPERDRIVE? OR MAYBE JUST HYPE? New Horizons, which is on its way to Pluto, is the fastest spacecraft ever built. Even so, the trip will take nine years. At the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics meeting last year, an award was given for a paper about a new propulsion system that could do it in a day. So why are we doing it the old-fashioned way? Because it works. There are two worlds. There is the world that sends robots to explore Mars, finds a vaccine for cervical cancer, unravels the structure of DNA, invents Global Positioning, etc. And then there is an alternate world that discovers cold fusion, homeopathy, the Podkletnov gravity shield, hydrinos, and the Heim space drive. Inhabitants of both worlds speak similar languages, look alike, even have identical DNA. It's not just that things don't work in the alternate world, that can happen even in the real world. But in the alternate world it doesn't seem to make any difference. 2. EARTH IS GETTING WARMER: LAST YEAR WAS WARMEST IN A CENTURY. NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies reports the highest annual average surface temperature since instrument recordings began. 1998 was about as warm, but for the two warmest years to be that close together is even more troubling. Warming is no longer the question. What is causing the increase? Is it simply natural solar variation, as the polluters prefer to believe, or a build up of greenhouse gases? The administration would rather not know http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn010606.html . The Deep Space Climate observatory, already built and waiting five years for launch, would provide an unambiguous answer. This clearly puts the administration in the "alternate world." 3. THE HYDROGEN CAR: TRANSPORTATION IN THE ALTERNATE WORLD. Huge gaps in virtually every field of science would have to be overcome for a hydrogen car to be feasible. The goal is for hydrogen vehicles to be in showrooms by 2020, 12 years after Bush leaves office. Energy Secretary Bodman kicked off the Washington Auto Show on Tuesday with the announcement of $119M in funding and a "Research Roadmap." It's a roadmap of the alternate world. 4. MAP OF CANADA: A SUDDEN COLD FRONT BLOWS IN FROM THE NORTH. Stephen Harper, a Conservative, elected as Canada's prime minister on Monday, informed the U.S. today that the Northwest Passage is Canadian water. Changing ice conditions due to global warming are opening the waters for the first time in history. 5. UCLA INFORMERS: CONSERVATIVE ALUMNUS WITHDRAWS MONEY OFFER. Last week, WN reported that a former campus Republican leader was offering cash to students to keep tabs on radical professors. UCLA officials said this would violate school policy. Andrew Jones shrugged that students would volunteer anyway. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 09:04:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SH3gJE012795; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:03:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SH3Zke012714; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:03:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:03:24 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7F243E23882D7-25BC-9C08@mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: It's All Right (Was: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW]) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.69 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Jan 06 Washington, DC And then there is an alternate world that discovers cold fusion, homeopathy, the Podkletnov gravity shield, hydrinos, and the Heim space drive. <><><><><><><> Whew! I was beginning to think Bob was losing his religion. "The year's at the spring And day's at the morn; Morning's at seven; The hill-side's dew-pearled The lark's on the wing; The snail's on the thorn; God's in his Heaven - All's right with the world!" Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 11:17:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SJHDor009696; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:17:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SJHBdi009681; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:17:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <8C7F243E23882D7-25BC-9C08@mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7F243E23882D7-25BC-9C08@mblkn-m05.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: It's All Right (Was: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW]) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:14:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 28, 2006, at 8:03 AM, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Jan 06 Washington, DC > > And then there is an alternate world that discovers cold fusion, > homeopathy, the Podkletnov gravity shield, hydrinos, and the Heim > space drive. > This a sure sign he has been tasting the evil fruit! 8^) How else would he know of such sinful things. > <><><><><><><> > > Whew! I was beginning to think Bob was losing his religion. > > "The year's at the spring > And day's at the morn; > Morning's at seven; > The hill-side's dew-pearled > The lark's on the wing; > The snail's on the thorn; > God's in his Heaven - > All's right with the world!" > > Terry Waxing poetic with Robert Browning. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 12:32:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SKWTeD008423; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:32:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SKWRgG008397; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:32:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:32:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ab01c62449$ef45cf20$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> Subject: "Recalescence" was: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:32:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is not a typical JB dyslexic misspelling. "Recalescence" is a most deadly phenomenon. It may have relevance to the Mizuno explosion and certainly to the P&F "runaway" anomaly - which gouged out a pit in a concrete floor. I have had a chance to go over this report with some experts who are not convince that this is anything other than recalescence - while leaving open the possibility that a closer isotopic analysis might prove otherwise. Ref: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. "Recalescence" SYLLABICATION:re·ca·les·cence NOUN:A sudden glowing in a cooling metal caused by liberation of the latent heat of transformation. ETYMOLOGY:From Latin present participle of recalscere, to grow warm again : re-, re- + calscere, to become warm, inchoative of calre, to be warm; More to the point, this is a very rapid heating phenomenon associated with simulatnaeous phase-change in metals, especially metals near a phase transition tmeperature. With "loaded metals" the problem can be magnified greatly. The energy is in the range of chemical but the time frame for dumping it is so short that it can possibly either cause secondary nuclear reactions (due to accelerations of ions) or be mistaken for more violent than it is. IF - that is, recalescence is what happened in the Mizuno situation - either alone or as a pre-cursor event - which is still unclear since most of the elements he finds on his cathode could have been dissolved from the pyrex and deposited on the electrode during the explosion - then greater care should be taken by everyone when doing this type of work. The death toll in steel mills - due to recalescence over the centuries is likely to be in the thousands. Yet how many of you have ever even heard the term? I had not - even though on talking to an inlaw, I have discovered that his brother probably died in the this type of accident in the infamous Gary, Indiana USS plant. But ... speaking of the confusing homonym for "recalescence" - which is "recollection" - here is Brian Ahern's recollection of a related, but even more tragic event - and one which he had tried in vain to call-in a warning only days before it happened.... "It is my firm belief that recalescence is the process that killed Andrew Riley back in 1993-94. The shift in energy from the tetrahedral sites back to octahedral is amplified by an order of magnitude by the energy stored in the anharmonic oscillations of the hydrogen nuclei. It is not merely a structural rearrangement; it is a significant source of latent heat that is little known. I observed it several times in my crystal growth of Indium Phosphide when the molten semiconductor melt would cool about 300 degrees centigrade below it melting point without solidifying. The melt was surrounded by molten boric oxide and this prevented nucleation of the solid phase when conditions were free of foreign impurities. Recalescence in the metal hydride system is something quite different. Frustration of the anharmonic modes back to harmonic modes for the hydrogen sublattice inevitable induces a rapid increase in temperature of the host metal. This in turn, causes the hydrogen to exit the lattice where it recombines as H2. This recombination releases 9 eV per molecule! That is slightly more energy than is released by combining hydrogen with oxygen. The total energy release is equivalent in energy density to a plastic explosive. I do not believe that this is the mechanism for Mizuno's system since he had only about 0.2 grams of W activated. His EDX analysis is open to interpretation since the Pyrex vessel contains ample amounts of calcium and silicon that could have transported to the surface of the tungsten and formed a thin layer there. The EDX technique only samples a depth of about 30 Angstroms, so it only requires micrograms of impurities to look like substantial transmutation." END Also it should be noted that the EDX technique, used by Mizuno, cannot determine isotope shifts --- and any such assertion in the Mizuno document were "interpretations" and not actual isotope shifts. It is still an open case as to whether this was nuclear at all. If it had been nuclear, Mizuno should have been killed instantly from the gamma radiation (unless of course this is the Hallmark gamma-less radiation of LENR. Very mysterious indeed. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 12:58:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SKwZ9c021034; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:58:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SKwXML021012; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:58:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:58:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <11962389.1138481911566.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:58:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is not related to cold fusion, but Jones has contributed to the field, so perhaps it will interest the readers here: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635179751,00.html QUOTE: "BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lying about 9/11 Last fall, Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones made headlines when he charged that the World Trade Center collapsed because of "pre-positioned explosives." Now, along with a group that calls itself "Scholars for 9/11 Truth," he's upping the ante. . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 14:49:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SMnHPi000997; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:49:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SMnBj0000954; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:49:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601282249.k0SMnA67025463@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:49:09 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Message for Thomas Clark Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_1dc3e1d8b9fb44f122f6861690cdb941" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_1dc3e1d8b9fb44f122f6861690cdb941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas, I looked at some of those web sites. IMHO, I urge you to seek a second opinion. In my last Vortex-l comment I symbolically donned my "witchdoctor's' hat and spoke in metaphorical "tongues". I did so because I hoped that speaking to you in that altered guise might get through to you more effectively. Unfortunately, I suspect my headgear and the incantations I may have uttered were only partially successful in reaching you. Nobody ever bats at 100% Let me speak to you in plain simple talk, as person to person who wishes to comment on your recent shared experiences. I speak to you simply as a person who is concerned about you and your wellbeing. It is my opinion, based on what you have described, that you have yet to fully recognize the never-ending collection of "dragons" you are creating. You have yet to discern those dragons for what they are as they parade in front of you. The key phrase I'm trying to convey to you is that these dragons are being created from within you. They are NOT originating from outside of you. For example: The "beam weapons targeting [you]", Being "contacted by many powerful persons in emails and by phone like the Generals of all Time (such as Chronos & Hitler)", ...and many other expressed thoughts... These are the internal dragons I am speaking of. These are the dragons generated from within you. They are the dragons you have yet to discern for what they are: As nothing more than extremely annoying and bothersome phantoms that occasionally distract, and sometimes terrify you. They may truly feel real to you, but they aren't. They come in many different forms, colors and shapes. They do not originate externally, from outside of you with the specific goal of meddling with your life, or to haunt you. The phantom dragons you are experiencing are most likely the result of a chemical imbalance occurring within your biological makeup. In fact, what you have described are classic symptoms of a chemical imbalance. This chemical imbalance is nothing to be ashamed of. It is not your fault. For better or worse, it simply happens to certain individuals. It's likely to run in the family. Search your lineage. It is likely that you may discover relatives who also have had similar issues in their own lives where some may have even required hospitalization. Never the less, in the 21st century there are now medications available that can be prescribed by the medical profession. The medications can help stabilize these chemical imbalances. They can help you banish your phantom dragons so that they will cease meddling in your life. You stated that you were once a programming teacher at a trade school, that you were studying to become a professor in Philosophy and Logic. But then "beam weapon attacks" forced you to postpone your career goals. The source of that "beam weapon" did not originate from some sinister outside force even though I'm sure that's how it must have truly felt to you. The "beam weapon" was the result of a chemical imbalance that was beginning to color your perception of reality. Said more bluntly, a chemical imbalance that was brewing within you was beginning to mess with your perception of reality. You owe it to your self and to your beautiful mind to regain your balance again, to reclaim those original noble goals in your life, to get back to your true life's work and destiny. You do not have to fight all those internal dragons alone and isolated, or without assistance. It's likely that certain medications may be of immense help. There are also self-help groups available who lend support to each other, particularly in times of crisis. It is likely that you will discover that many individuals in these self-help groups are highly gifted and creative, just as you are. I suspect most of them, you would discover, are anything but mundane. You are also likely to discover that the dragons you are experiencing are not all that different than the dragons they have experienced as well. Those internal phantom dragons can begin to lose their grip on you when you begin to cross referencing your perceptions with others you trust who can help you discern their phantom-like nature. It is a choice that you must be willing to make however: (1) To get better, or (2) to continue to live in uncertainty, of not knowing when the next "attack" will occur in your life. As annoying or terrifying as these phantom dragons may be I suspect they are also exciting and intriguing. No doubt they spin a never-ending web of drama in front of you. There are likely to be aspects within you that doesn't really want to consider the possibility that your phantom dragons aren't real. To admit such would imply that maybe your life might actually be a lot more mundane than what those scary chemically induced phantom dragons are suggesting. I can only suggest to you that life experienced in a more chemically balanced way is anything but mundane. I also doubt that life, as you will continue to experience it, will ever feel mundane, even when those chemically induced phantom dragons have been vanquished to distant corner where they will bother you less. See the dragons for what they are, and reclaim your life, Thomas. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com PS: No charge. --=_1dc3e1d8b9fb44f122f6861690cdb941 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas,

I looked at some of those web sites.

IMHO, I urge you to seek a second opinion.

In my last Vortex-l comment I symbolically donned my "witchdoctor's' hat an= d spoke in metaphorical "tongues". I did so because I hoped that speaking t= o you in that altered guise might get through to you more effectively. Unfo= rtunately, I suspect my headgear and the incantations I may have uttered we= re only partially successful in reaching you. Nobody ever bats at 100%

Let me speak to you in plain simple talk, as person to person who wishes to= comment on your recent shared experiences. I speak to you simply as a pers= on who is concerned about you and your wellbeing.

It is my opinion, based on what you have described, that you have yet to fu= lly recognize the never-ending collection of "dragons" you are creating. Yo= u have yet to discern those dragons for what they are as they parade in fro= nt of you. The key phrase I'm trying to convey to you is that these dragons= are being created from within you. They are NOT originating from outside o= f you.

For example:

The "beam weapons targeting [you]",

Being "contacted by many powerful persons in emails and by phone like the G= enerals of all Time (such as Chronos & Hitler)",

...and many other expressed thoughts... These are the internal dragons I am= speaking of. These are the dragons generated from within you. They are the= dragons you have yet to discern for what they are: As nothing more than ex= tremely annoying and bothersome phantoms that occasionally distract, and so= metimes terrify you. They may truly feel real to you, but they aren't. They= come in many different forms, colors and shapes. They do not originate ext= ernally, from outside of you with the specific goal of meddling with your l= ife, or to haunt you.

The phantom dragons you are experiencing are most likely the result of a ch= emical imbalance occurring within your biological makeup. In fact, what you= have described are classic symptoms of a chemical imbalance. This chemical= imbalance is nothing to be ashamed of. It is not your fault. For better or= worse, it simply happens to certain individuals. It's likely to run in the= family. Search your lineage. It is likely that you may discover relatives = who also have had similar issues in their own lives where some may have eve= n required hospitalization. Never the less, in the 21st century there are n= ow medications available that can be prescribed by the medical profession. = The medications can help stabilize these chemical imbalances. They can help= you banish your phantom dragons so that they will cease meddling in your l= ife.

You stated that you were once a programming teacher at a trade school, that= you were studying to become a professor in Philosophy and Logic. But then = "beam weapon attacks" forced you to postpone your career goals. The source = of that "beam weapon" did not originate from some sinister outside force ev= en though I'm sure that's how it must have truly felt to you. The "beam wea= pon" was the result of a chemical imbalance that was beginning to color you= r perception of reality. Said more bluntly, a chemical imbalance that was b= rewing within you was beginning to mess with your perception of reality. Yo= u owe it to your self and to your beautiful mind to regain your balance aga= in, to reclaim those original noble goals in your life, to get back to your= true life's work and destiny.

You do not have to fight all those internal dragons alone and isolated, or = without assistance. It's likely that certain medications may be of immense = help. There are also self-help groups available who lend support to each ot= her, particularly in times of crisis. It is likely that you will discover t= hat many individuals in these self-help groups are highly gifted and creati= ve, just as you are. I suspect most of them, you would discover, are anythi= ng but mundane. You are also likely to discover that the dragons you are ex= periencing are not all that different than the dragons they have experience= d as well. Those internal phantom dragons can begin to lose their grip on y= ou when you begin to cross referencing your perceptions with others you tru= st who can help you discern their phantom-like nature.

It is a choice that you must be willing to make however: (1) To get better,= or (2) to continue to live in uncertainty, of not knowing when the next "a= ttack" will occur in your life. As annoying or terrifying as these phantom = dragons may be I suspect they are also exciting and intriguing. No doubt th= ey spin a never-ending web of drama in front of you. There are likely to be= aspects within you that doesn't really want to consider the possibility th= at your phantom dragons aren't real. To admit such would imply that maybe y= our life might actually be a lot more mundane than what those scary chemica= lly induced phantom dragons are suggesting.

I can only suggest to you that life experienced in a more chemically balanc= ed way is anything but mundane. I also doubt that life, as you will continu= e to experience it, will ever feel mundane, even when those chemically indu= ced phantom dragons have been vanquished to distant corner where they will = bother you less.

See the dragons for what they are, and reclaim your life, Thomas.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

PS: No charge.
--=_1dc3e1d8b9fb44f122f6861690cdb941-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 15:04:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0SN4kuG006664; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:04:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0SN4iG5006647; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:04:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c6245f$38355470$10037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <11962389.1138481911566.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:04:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, With all debris removed from the WT site, no proof of anything remains. While we were sleeping the internet slowed down. Would anyone care to speculate on the reason? Did anyone notice a NEW name emerged in the world of finance called " Coast Acquisitions Corp" co-owned by the Carlyle Group and Zodiac SA of France. Making big bucks on defense contracts.. I thought the US and France were on the outs? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > This is not related to cold fusion, but Jones has contributed to the > field, so perhaps it will interest the readers here: > > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635179751,00.html > > QUOTE: > > "BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lying about 9/11 > > Last fall, Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones made > headlines when he charged that the World Trade Center collapsed because of > "pre-positioned explosives." Now, along with a group that calls itself > "Scholars for 9/11 Truth," he's upping the ante. . . . > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 18:25:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T2P9bG019151; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:25:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T2P6KK019137; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:25:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:25:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:24:55 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F2925422D9A8-FF8-30B1E@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <00ab01c62449$ef45cf20$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00ab01c62449$ef45cf20$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Recalescence" was: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene The death toll in steel mills - due to recalescence over the centuries is likely to be in the thousands. Yet how many of you have ever even heard the term? <><><><><><><> Yes, in one of the most bizarre cases of synchronocity I have experienced lately. The term was used in a TV program I was watching yesterday about how 24 tons of the WTC steel was recast for the bow of a Navy amphibious ship, the USS New York. http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/september11/advance/091003_ steel.html or http://tinyurl.com/8ntt2 I remember thinking that I would have to look that up because it involved detection of impurities in the molten steel including hydrogen. Then I come here and see two posts, one about recalescence and another from Richard about removal of the debris from the WTC site. Terry "Is it in my head?" The Who, "Quadrophenia" ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 19:38:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T3cCS0016116; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:38:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T3cAAH016106; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:38:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5967632.1138505889333.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay writes: >With all debris removed from the WT site, no proof of anything remains. That's incorrect. Thousands of tons were put aside for the investigation, and have been preserved. Samples of the damaged steel and other materials have been extensively tested by many independent labs. If there had anything like what Jones suggested, hundreds of experts would have spotted it easily, and it would have been impossible to keep secret. Jones also denounced cold fusion in this newspaper article. This is the first time I have seen an attack on cold fusion and breathed a sigh of relief. I would not want the field to be associated with -- or endorsed by -- nutcakes who think the Towers were destroyed with explosives. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 20:22:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T4MiDQ001206; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:22:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T4MgZx001184; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:22:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:22:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Bdjnh1dpKFmGov2GDWSs528ZIiR+nBwB390imzIgKa+sLtBoQBaI7/Fm/l6YgaNY; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:User-Agent:References:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Disposition:Message-Id:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Z machine - Close to Fusion Breakeven Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:27:11 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200601282327.11058.rockcast@earthlink.net> X-ELNK-Trace: 161777525297e62b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec793be43057002b250ccef70ca8682102e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 71.115.188.143 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 27 January 2006 04:49, thomas malloy wrote: > Hoyt Stearns posted; > > >Bizarre story about time traveler John Titor that predicted Z-Machine and > >claims his time machine needed that technology. > > > >http://www.johntitor.com > > I listened to a man who has studied the Titor matter on C to C AM, > and IMHO, this is science fiction Hoyt. > > Frank Meyer told me that time is a continium, not a dimension. IMHO, > time goes one way, from start to finish. I'd love to be proven wrong. > I'd travel back in time and kick my 20 year old self in the ass. But > I'm not going to hold my breath. > > Just a thought. Time may not only be a dimension, but several. Quantum mechanics demand time travel or at least some say it does. Now suppose there are deterministic rules to time travel and that time is traversed not only in one dimension but in at least three. This means that for every event there are an infinite number of pasts, but only one of those would be excluded from you. YOU CANT 'GO HOME' AGAIN! So your twenty year old self whose ass you kick when you go back will not be from YOUR timeline but from another. Some OTHER Tom will kick your butt when he travels, but that 'pleasure' will be forbidden to you by some future discovered temporal 'Pauli exclusion principle'. Comments? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 21:06:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T55qm5018935; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:05:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T55pQ2018917; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:05:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:05:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:06:23 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: hyperdimensionality and the ZPE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlraum posted; Hypertime is certainly an explanation for the Cheshire cat showing only a grin; Do you think that was what Carol was talking about? but, string theory offers another "place" where the energy exchange could take place. I've often thought that since the string is vibrating if we could figure out how to pull energy out of it. What with 10^500th universes to swap with . How about a 23 dimensional universe to swap with? .. . Think of this, from Horace's calculation, the vacuum energy is equivalent to more than 40 orders of magnitude more virtual mass than real ASSUMING THE PLANCK LIMIT. What does Plank's limit have to do with this? However, I fear that the trillion dollar war is not what restricts our possession of ZPE. How about the fact, AFAIK, no one has been able to extract watt one out of it. I'll take your rant even further and say that we (humans) already posses the answers to the energy program but it is so deeply hidden within the layers of black government and black gold and the military industrial complex Given the money generated by oil, It wouldn't surprise me if the conspriatorialists were right. However, the bureaucrats are quite good at taxing most everything. Automobiles for instance, have odometers. that we will see 90% of the world starve after a 100 trillion dollar global conflict I realize that war is the greatest booster of the growth of the security state. However, this is clearly a civilizational conflict, where the Moslems declared Jihad against us. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 22:28:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T6RiuI013027; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:27:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T6RgQV013005; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:27:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:27:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:25:08 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 27, 2006, at 12:32 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomalouse.pdf > > This includes the PowerPoint slides, which are interesting. > > - Jed Note the plexaglass front door of the 1L-6 incubator appears to still be intact in http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG This is an indication the door was opened by the blast prior to the glass shards hitting it. The shards came through with enough energy to cause widespread injuries. This is only consistent with the primary energy of the blast being in the 1L-6 incubator, not the flask. I think Mizuno had it right when he said: "The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. There 2 ~ 3 cc of hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas in the headspace." (See accident report appended below.) The accident report states: "The event occurred in the early stage of the experiment before a plasma normally forms." However the Chart in Fig. 6 in: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomalouse.pdf shows a run time of over 10,000 seconds before the explosion. That's almost 3 hours. The beaker cap used in the explosion was black and both thin and thinly tapered compared to the white cap shown in the "before" photos. It is possible there was a leak in the cap or other leak in the system, or that hydrogen had accumulated in the 1L-6 incubator during prior runs. On Jan 27, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mizuno reports that the inverted glass funnel was not in use in the > latest series of experiments, so there was a stoichiometric mix of > hydrogen and oxygen in the headspace of the cell. After further > investigation, he concluded that the explosion was probably > triggered by the platinum mesh anode. I will revise the accident > report to include his latest comments, and I will upload a version > of it in a few days. > > The outlet tube leading to the mass spectrometer was definitely not > blocked or impeded, so the gas in the headspace was at 1 atm. > > One of the glass shards struck Mizuno's neck next to the carotid > artery and penetrated about 1 cm. I'll bet that put the fear of God > in him! He has been rather slack about safety up to now, in my > opinion. > > There is a great deal of opposition to cold fusion in Japan and at > the university, so I feared that the university might step in and > tell him he can no longer perform these experiments. But > apparently, he is already back at work starting the experiments > again, despite the trauma. Mizuno has guts. All cold fusion > researchers have guts. They are an ornery bunch, but you have to > admire them. > > - Jed On Jan 31, 2005, at 12:40 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > > It appears the explosion may well have been ignited in the flask, > but the > main energy from the explosion came from the top interior of the > Yamato > 1L-6 incubator. It looks like the explosive force was primarily > downward, > and the overpressure on the conical cap on the flask blew the flask > apart > in radial directions, leaving the base cracked but in leaving it > place. It > looks like the base of the flask may be stuck (by prior heating) to > the > polypropylene insulation underneath it. > > Assuming the plastic door was not blown to pieces, the overpressure > was > clearly enough to blow open the plastic door before the glass > shards went > through the open door. This indicates the overpressure hit the > door before > the flask pieces. The source of the blast pressure that opened the > plastic > door was therefore not inside the flask, but rather probably coming > from > the top of the 1L-6 downward. > > One has to wonder if there was a long run at a somewhat earlier > time, but > not more than a few days prior to starting the demonstration for the > visitor. From the pdf experiment description it appears the > hydrogen from > the flask is ultimately dumped into the interior of the 1L-6, even > if/when > the generated gas volume is being measured. There are clearly various > spaces in the 1L-6 that could trap an H2-O2 mixture, even if the > door were > opened for a while for access to the experiment. Upon closing the > plastic > door and leaving the experiment sit, any residual H2 in semi-confined > spaces (e.g. cloth, instrument boxes, etc.) in the 1L-6 would > eventually > tend to diffuse toward the top of the 1L-6. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:22 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > [I will upload an Acrobat version of this report that includes > photographs.] > > Accident Report > > Tadahiko Mizuno > Division of Quantum Energy Engineering, > Research group of Nuclear System Engineering > Hokkaido University > E-mail: mizuno@qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp > > On January 24, 2005 at around 4:00 p.m. an explosion occurred > during a plasma electrolysis experiment being performed by Mizuno > in the Quantum Energy Engineering Section. > > The cell was a 1000 cc Pyrex glass vessel which has been in use for > about 5 years. It contained 700 cc of 0.2M K2CO3 electrolyte; a > platinum mesh anode; and a tungsten cathode wire 1.5 mm in > diameter, 29 cm long, with 3 cm exposed to the electrolyte. > Electrolyte temperature was 20 deg C. The cell was placed inside a > constant temperature air-cooled incubator (Yamato 1L-6) with the > outer door open, and the inner Plexiglas safety door closed. The > experimental setup is described in Ref. 1. The event occurred in > the early stage of the experiment before a plasma normally forms. > Soon after ordinary electrolysis began, voltage was increased to 20 > V and current to 1.5 A. 5 or 6 seconds later, a bright white flash > was seen on the lower portion of the cathode. The light expanded > and at the same instant the cell exploded. > > The explosion blew open the Plexiglas safety door and spread shards > of Pyrex glass and electrolyte up to 5 ~ 6 m into the surrounding > area. > > When the explosion occurred, Mizuno and a guest visiting the > laboratory (who wishes to remain anonymous) were observing the cell > about 1 m from the incubator. They were wounded in the face, neck, > arms and chest by shards of glass 1 ~ 5 cm long. Fortunately, there > were no injuries to their eyes. The injuries are light, and they > are expected to recover in a week. However, the explosion made such > a tremendous noise both victims were temporarily rendered > completely deaf. It is not known whether this will have any after- > effects. > > > Possible Causes > > The vessel was old and may have had a scratch on the inner surface. > > The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. > There 2 ~ 3 cc of hydrogen at the time, although this is an open > cell so only minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. > > It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to > the gas in the headspace. > > > Recommendations > > Researchers performing similar glow discharge experiments are > advised to make an experimental setup that can undergo an explosion > without endangering personnel. Care should be taken not only to > protect against shards and fragments, but also to avoid exposure to > the extreme noise of an explosion. > > Voltage, current and electrolyte temperature were below the levels > needed to form a glow discharge, so it is unclear what might have > caused the explosion. > > > Countermeasures > > Here are some basic protective steps that should be taken in all > experiments of this nature: > > Perform experiments under remote control, with power supplies and > meters placed a safe distance from the cell. > > Use an explosion-proof cell vessel and equipment chamber. > > Do not use glass cells. (We are now investigating alternative > materials.) > > All glass and plastic vessels should be wrapped with filament tape > to prevent fragmentation. > > Prevent mixing and recombination of effluent hydrogen and oxygen. > However, it would be impossible to prevent mixing during the glow > discharge phase when both gasses are generated at the cathode. > > Use nontoxic or reduced toxicity electrolyte solutions. > > Always use safety glasses, helmets, faceguards and an acrylic blast > screen. > > While we have not concluded this incident was caused by a cold > fusion reaction, be aware that cold fusion is still poorly > understood and difficult to control. > > Be aware that in normal operation these systems often produce > intense ultra-violet rays that can damage unprotected eyes; and > they can produce intense magnetic fields and possibly x-rays and > neutrons. Take steps to protect yourself from these as well. > > References > > 1. Mizuno, T., T. Ohmori, and T. Akimoto. Generation of Heat and > Products During Plasma Electrolysis. in Tenth International > Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA: LENR-CANR.org. > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 22:56:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0T6u0EQ022243; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:56:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0T6twAx022215; Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:55:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@mail.usfamily.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:56:31 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted; And Standing Bear replied; > Frank Meyer told me that time is a continium, not a dimension. IMHO, > time goes one way, from start to finish. I'd love to be proven wrong. > I'd travel back in time and kick my 20 year old self in the ass. But > I'm not going to hold my breath. > > Just a thought. Time may not only be a dimension, but several. Quantum mechanics demand time travel or at least some say it does. Randall Mills says that quantum mechanics is all wrong. Also, AFAIK, if subatomic particles do appear to travel in time, the key word is particles. are an infinite number of pasts, but only one of those would be excluded from I don't believe in multiverses either. I've listened to a number of physicists, and have concluded that there are two types of physicists, theoretical and applied. Applied physicists have one foot on the ground. OTOH, theoretical physicists don't have either foot on the ground. you. YOU CANT 'GO HOME' AGAIN! So your twenty year old self whose ass you kick when you go back will not be from YOUR timeline As I said, I don't believe that it is possible. Comments? Standing Bear --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 05:20:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TDKIHn029840; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:20:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TDKFBc029823; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:20:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:20:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c624d6$b61ec930$88027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <5967632.1138505889333.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:20:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Like I said, no proof of anything remains.. thats Texan for.. I dunno. Granted we have A&M where agriculture and cattle are equal to engineering and a BS degree is however you choose to interpret it, but it's hard to sell us sawdust for soap more than twice. One tower imploding.. ok , I'll buy that, two towers become a stretch, but when three implode symetrically.. Hey ! come on, that soap is beginning to feel like sawdust. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > RC Macaulay writes: > >>With all debris removed from the WT site, no proof of anything remains. > > That's incorrect. Thousands of tons were put aside for the investigation, > and have been preserved. Samples of the damaged steel and other materials > have been extensively tested by many independent labs. If there had > anything like what Jones suggested, hundreds of experts would have spotted > it easily, and it would have been impossible to keep secret. > > Jones also denounced cold fusion in this newspaper article. This is the > first time I have seen an attack on cold fusion and breathed a sigh of > relief. I would not want the field to be associated with -- or endorsed > by -- nutcakes who think the Towers were destroyed with explosives. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 05:44:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TDhqun006649; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:43:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TDhpLt006638; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:43:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:43:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ff01c624d9$d70f5fd0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Jed Rothwell" , References: <5967632.1138505889333.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:42:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:38 PM Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > RC Macaulay writes: > >>With all debris removed from the WT site, no proof of anything remains. > > That's incorrect. Thousands of tons were put aside for the investigation, > and have been preserved. Samples of the damaged steel and other materials > have been extensively tested by many independent labs. If there had > anything like what Jones suggested, hundreds of experts would have spotted > it easily, and it would have been impossible to keep secret. > > Jones also denounced cold fusion in this newspaper article. This is the > first time I have seen an attack on cold fusion and breathed a sigh of > relief. I would not want the field to be associated with -- or endorsed > by -- nutcakes who think the Towers were destroyed with explosives. > > - Jed Actually, the collapse of the three WTC towers on 9/11/01 does require further examination, for one simple reason, steel framed building had never previously or since collapsed due to fire. A building in Madrid, Spain burned for 30 hours in 2005, a raging inferno that engulfed the entire building and it still stood at the end of it all. Some will argue that WTC-1 and 2 were hit with planes, thus that contributed to their collapse. Perhaps, but WTC-7 was not hit with any plane and it only had two minor fires, there is no logical reason for why WTC-7 collapsed on the afternoon of 9/11/01. I would think that an unprecedented building failure like the WTC on 9/11/01 would result in an extrodinary investigation by government and building engineers to determine why and how the buildings failed. But that investigation seems muted and underwhelming to say the least (I believe most of the steel from the WTC was actually promptly shipped off the Asia and melted). I think it is fair to entertain alternative explanations, because the official explanation for the WTC collapses just doesn't add up. Even on the day of 9/11/01 I remember reports saying that it appears as if there had been a detonation of some sort when the buildings came down. Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require alternative explanations, IMO. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 07:02:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TF2Yc1008368; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:02:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TF2Wpp008350; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:02:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:02:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <21005011.1138546947625.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:02:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > . . .It is possible that the tungsten cathode >may have been exposed to the gas in the headspace." (See accident >report appended below.) He meant the headspace of the cell, not the incubator. The incubator is well ventilated, and the gas tubes go outside it in any case. >The accident report states: "The event occurred in the early stage of >the experiment before a plasma normally forms." However the Chart in >Fig. 6 in: >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomalouse.pdf >shows a run time of over 10,000 seconds before the explosion. That's >almost 3 hours. That graph can't be labeled right. The experiment had barely begun when this happened. Graphs 7 and 8 show only 40 seconds elapsed. Perhaps he did not reset the timer for the gas flowmeter. > It is possible there was a leak in the cap or other leak in >the system, or that hydrogen had accumulated in the 1L-6 incubator >during prior runs. I think that is impossible. Even if it happened the gas would not reach a high enough concentration to explode. The heat that drove the explosion was generated in the cell, underwater. That is why the electrolyte temperature went up from 25 to 80 deg C so quickly. That heating alone required far more energy than was input into the system. It is a first-class mystery, unlike any other cold fusion event ever reported, as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 09:00:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TH045K010727; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:00:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TGwcV5010226; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:58:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:58:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DCF402.9040306@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:57:38 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cmns@googlegroups.com, Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Article Tracking: Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all, Finally, the erroneous ideas of Dr. Shanahan have been answered and the paper is now in the literature. Regards, Ed -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Article Tracking: Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:43:37 +0000 (GMT+00:00) From: Author Gateway To: storms2@ix.netcom.com Author Gateway article tracking service from Elsevier Article title: Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion Reference: TCA74152 Journal title: Thermochimica Acta Corresponding author: Dr. E. Storms First author: Dr. E. Storms Received at Elsevier: 16-NOV-2005 DOI information: 10.1016/j.tca.2005.11.028 We would like to inform you that your article is now published online via ScienceDirect: http://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S004060310500571X To access the full-text of this paper online, your institute will need to have a subscription to this journal on ScienceDirect. If your institute does not subscribe to this journal, you will only have access to the abstract. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 09:18:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0THICBY017581; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:18:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0THI8vY017551; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:18:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c624f7$f2b1d2e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Recalescence of Bacon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:17:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C624B4.E3C8AAD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C624B4.E3C8AAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ready to chew the fat with another recalescence recollection ? Heat amplification is a strange phenomenon - intimately associated with = the quest for "free-energy". For instance if we could amplify ambient = heat of the environment of ~300 K efficiently (this doesn't work for = Horace and other Arctic denizens) to 600 K, and do it cheaply and = efficiently, then the world would have fewer future concerns over oil = supplies or pollution, because that differential of hot-cold of even 300 = degrees is usable even if inefficient. "Heat pumps" operating at mush = less "spread" are also efficient for using the environmental 'heat sink' = to amplify heat - and are overunity in the sense of a high COP for heat = -->heat but because of Carnot limitations - have no chance for = heat-to-electrical overunity. The combination of wind+solar, at the same site - has a possible synergy = during those times when both are usable. To wit: The Ranque Hilsch vortex tube is one of the few simple heat = amplification devices in physics. It has the main characteristic of = Maxwell's demon - which is selective separation, but is not yet even a = near-demon. Separating a stream of gas into its higher and lower = temperature components - albeit inefficiently, is NOT enough - but that = is only because compressing a gas is very lossy. The vortex tube could = provide an increased conversion-efficiency, or even 'Maxwell's = Demon-type' overunity potential if "pumping costs" were not so = excessive, which they usually are. Wind energy can provide 'free' = pumping - but is there enough synergy, combined with solar heating, to = push this beyond driving a generator directly? Maybe. Or, is a 'liquid phase' equivalent to the R-H tube possible - or even a = slurry or mixed phase device benefiting from recalescence? ? Or is there = a way to use solar to impart both high pressure AND high temperature to = a gas at the same time with no added pumping? If so then a R-H vortex = tube can roughly increase by half-again the highest absolute = temperature, without actually adding any extra net heat. Another even simpler example of a potential physical effect which could = be useful in the near-future - for higher efficiency conversion of lower = grade heat, is as close as your kitchen. I bring this up because it is = the most easily accessible form of "recalescence" which I can think of. Take a cast-iron skillet and place it on the stove, turn on the heat and = then hold the handle of the skillet until it gets to be uncomfortably = hot- following this immediately remove the iron pan and place it under a = cold water faucet. If you are foolish enough to do this without reading = on, you will be in need of burn medication. Iron has dozens of phase changes. The "heat compression" or recalescence = effect of phase-change will give you a visceral appreciation for the = Mallove's title "Fire from Ice"... unless as an alternative pain, you = have a working spouse and must indulge in the occasional microwaved TV = dinner which was not prepared in accordance with the instructions. The = point is - with recalescence you may get a net caloric gain along with = temperature amplification. This is a reversible and conservative gain, = but a gain nevertheless - which is capable of pushing the Carnot spread. It turns out that Francis Bacon (1561-1626) in "Novum Organum" was the = first observer that I can find that referenced this kind of = heat-compression effect, an effect in which temperature is raised by = instantaneous proximity to cold due to rapid shifting of phase-change = energy.=20 That is, by restricting or directing normal phonon motion with a heat = sink, one can actually raise the maximum temperature far above the = previous average (and occasionally raise the net caloric content in a = reversible way). And after 400 + years there is still precious little = about this phenomenon on the internet, despite the love in the USA for = cast iron skillets and bacon However, a closer look at the Sterling engine and its surprising = efficiency at lower Carnot spreads seems to indicate that some correlate = of the heat-compression and/or recalescence effect might be involved in = the mechanics of this engine... but I have never seen this mentioned in = the literature.=20 BTW, another factoid that is hardly ever referenced in automobile engine = thermodynamics is the "shockwave" effect, where a certain amount of = normal gas expansion (on ignition) has been converted past the stage of = 'acceleration' and into the next higher power law regime - often termed = as "jerk". Presumably the kinetic energy transfer to the piston has been = thereby increased to some degree by the shockwave... and thus the = slightly higher efficiency of the diesel (one of many explanations). This diesel analogy is a good one for a solid state correlate. You can = look at the whole recalescence phenomenon as related to a "shock wave" = phenomenon occurring in the metal due to rapid phase change. Too bad it = is conservative - unless of course, we can figure out a way to get uncle = Casimir involved. To close out this speculation on potential cracks in the wall of = thermodynamic-laws - I'll throw out at least five potential ways that = one might use low grade heat more efficiently... to at least approach or = exceed the Carnot limitation. Overunity will await the first NanE who = can get Casimir to reverse the phase change for "free." First and foremost is electrochemistry (and its subset, ionization/ = recombination). Fuel cells provide power through electrochemical = oxidation of a fuel but as electrical devices, rather than heat engines, = fuel cells are not restricted by Carnot limitations (to the same degree = at least) and can in theory be closer to 100% efficient.=20 A second approach is in the shockwave effect (power law), and a third is = in the heat compression effect, or recalescence effect, both mentioned = above.=20 But neither of these seems immediately applicable to extremely low-grade = heat. The fourth is the Ettinghouse effect. When an electric current = flows across the lines of force of a magnetic field, an electromotive = force is observed which is at right angles to both the primary current = and the magnetic field. A temperature gradient is observed which has the = opposite direction to the Hall voltage. The last and very similar is the = Nernst Effect. When heat alone flows across lines of magnetic force, = there is observed an electromotive force in the mutually perpendicular = direction. We know that MHD works, and using the Ettinghouse or Nernst effect = "should" work as well - but whereas MHD requires ionization = temperatures, the other two do not. What about a magnetized vortex tube = containing a slurry at lower temperature? If we are looking for synergy = - then what about using an already ionized slurry (acid or base) in = which the phase-change in the metal slurry is engineered to occur around = 300 K, and the whole recirculating device is set spinning? Aspden has observed: "I am mindful that the use of magnets as a catalyst = to deflect charged ions from a heated gaseous flow so as to generate = electrical output does comply with the Carnot efficiency limitations" - = but this is to the extent that is gas molecules enter at a high = temperature and leave through an exhaust at lower temperature -which is = only a requirement of mass transport in that situation.=20 MHD, the magneto-hydrodynamic technology which had its heyday in the = 1960s but never went anywhere for this reason. Aspen's reservation = applies to a situation where a gaseous medium is recirculated with the = necessity of a temperature drop. But by using recalescence combined with = vortex separation at ambient temperatures, it is arguable that an = adiabatic process can become a positive feature of an experiment, rather = than a negative. Here you must set the whole R-H tube spinning and have = all the necessary plumbing on-board. You can use your magnetic field in = a sealed environment and not worry about the necessity of a heat-sink. In addition, if there is any net power it will come with a big bonus for = summer-time use - a cooling (air conditioning) effect. Let's hear it for = summer. Jones .... with help from Harry Tuttle on the spinning vortex-tube w/ onboard = ductwork plumbing idea. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C624B4.E3C8AAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ready to chew the fat with another = recalescence recollection ?
 
Heat amplification is a strange = phenomenon -=20 intimately associated with the quest for "free-energy". For instance if = we could=20 amplify ambient heat of the environment of ~300 K efficiently (this = doesn't=20 work for Horace and other Arctic denizens) to 600 K, and do it cheaply = and=20 efficiently, then the world would have fewer future concerns = over oil=20 supplies or pollution, because that differential of hot-cold of = even 300=20 degrees is usable even if inefficient. "Heat pumps" operating at = mush less=20 "spread" are also efficient for using the environmental 'heat = sink' to=20 amplify heat - and are overunity in the sense of a high COP for heat=20 -->heat  but because of Carnot limitations - have no = chance for=20 heat-to-electrical overunity.
 
The combination of wind+solar, at the = same site -=20 has a possible synergy during those times when both are usable. To = wit:

The Ranque Hilsch vortex tube is one of the few simple heat=20 amplification devices in physics. It has the main characteristic of = Maxwell's=20 demon - which is selective separation, but is not yet even a near-demon. = Separating a stream of gas into its higher and lower temperature = components -=20 albeit inefficiently, is NOT enough - but that = is only because=20 compressing a gas is very lossy. The vortex tube could provide = an=20 increased conversion-efficiency, or even 'Maxwell's = Demon-type' overunity=20 potential if "pumping costs" were not so excessive, which they usually = are. Wind=20 energy can provide 'free' pumping - but is there enough synergy, = combined with=20 solar heating, to push this beyond driving a generator directly?=20 Maybe.
 
Or, is a 'liquid phase' equivalent to = the R-H tube=20 possible - or even a slurry or mixed phase device benefiting from = recalescence?=20 ? Or is there a way to use solar to impart both high pressure AND high=20 temperature to a gas at the same time with no added pumping? If so then = a R-H=20 vortex tube can roughly increase by half-again the highest absolute = temperature,=20 without actually adding any extra net heat.

Another even simpler example of a potential physical = effect which=20 could be useful in the near-future - for higher efficiency conversion of = lower=20 grade heat, is as close as your kitchen. I bring this up because it is = the most=20 easily accessible form of "recalescence" which I can think = of.

Take a=20 cast-iron skillet and place it on the stove, turn on the heat and then = hold the=20 handle of the skillet until it gets to be uncomfortably hot- following = this=20 immediately remove the iron pan and place it under a cold water faucet. = If you=20 are foolish enough to do this without reading on, you will be in need of = burn=20 medication.
 
Iron has dozens of phase changes. The "heat compression" or = recalescence=20 effect of phase-change will give you a visceral appreciation for the = Mallove's=20 title "Fire from Ice"... unless as an alternative pain, you have a = working=20 spouse and must indulge in the occasional microwaved TV dinner = which was=20 not prepared in accordance with the instructions. The point is - with=20 recalescence you may get a net caloric gain along with temperature=20 amplification. This is a reversible and conservative gain, but a gain=20 nevertheless - which is capable of pushing the Carnot spread.

It = turns=20 out that Francis Bacon (1561-1626) in "Novum Organum"  was the = first=20 observer that I can find that referenced this kind = of heat-compression=20 effect, an effect in which temperature is raised by instantaneous = proximity to=20 cold due to rapid shifting of phase-change energy.
 
That is, by restricting or directing = normal phonon=20 motion with a heat sink, one can actually raise the maximum temperature = far=20 above the previous average (and occasionally raise the net caloric = content=20 in a reversible way). And after 400 + years there is still precious = little about=20 this phenomenon on the internet, despite the love in the USA for cast = iron=20 skillets and bacon <G>
 
However, a closer look at the Sterling = engine and=20 its surprising efficiency at lower Carnot spreads seems to indicate that = some=20 correlate of the heat-compression and/or recalescence effect might be = involved=20 in the mechanics of this engine... but I have never seen this mentioned = in the=20 literature.
 
BTW, another factoid that is hardly = ever referenced=20 in automobile engine thermodynamics is the "shockwave" effect, where a = certain=20 amount of normal gas expansion (on ignition) has been converted past the = stage=20 of 'acceleration' and into the next higher power law regime - often = termed=20 as "jerk". Presumably the kinetic energy transfer to the = piston has=20 been thereby increased to some degree by the shockwave... and thus the = slightly=20 higher efficiency of the diesel (one of many explanations).
 
This diesel analogy is a good one for a = solid state=20 correlate. You can look at the whole recalescence phenomenon as related = to a=20 "shock wave" phenomenon occurring in the metal due to rapid phase = change. Too=20 bad it is conservative - unless of course, we can figure out a way to = get uncle=20 Casimir involved.

To close out this speculation on = potential=20 cracks in the wall of thermodynamic-laws - I'll throw out at least = five=20 potential ways that one might use low grade heat more efficiently... to = at least=20 approach or exceed the Carnot limitation. Overunity will await the first = NanE=20 who can get Casimir to reverse the phase change for "free."
 
First and foremost is electrochemistry = (and its=20 subset, ionization/ recombination). Fuel cells provide power through=20 electrochemical oxidation of a fuel but as electrical devices, rather = than heat=20 engines, fuel cells are not restricted by Carnot limitations (to the = same degree=20 at least) and can in theory be closer to 100% efficient.
 
A second approach is in the shockwave = effect (power=20 law), and a third is in the heat compression effect, or recalescence = effect,=20 both mentioned above.
 
But neither of these seems immediately = applicable=20 to extremely low-grade heat. The fourth is the Ettinghouse effect. When = an=20 electric current flows across the lines of force of a magnetic field, an = electromotive force is observed which is at right angles to both the = primary=20 current and the magnetic field. A temperature gradient is observed which = has the=20 opposite direction to the Hall voltage. The last and very similar is the = Nernst=20 Effect. When heat alone flows across lines of magnetic force, there is = observed=20 an electromotive force in the mutually perpendicular = direction.
 
We know that MHD works, and using the = Ettinghouse=20 or Nernst effect "should" work as well - but whereas MHD requires=20 ionization temperatures, the other two do not. What about a magnetized = vortex=20 tube containing a slurry at lower temperature? If we are looking = for=20 synergy - then what about using an already ionized slurry (acid or base) = in=20 which the phase-change in the metal slurry is engineered to occur around = 300 K,=20 and the whole recirculating device is set spinning?

Aspden has observed: "I am mindful that the use of magnets as a = catalyst to deflect charged ions from a heated gaseous flow so as to = generate=20 electrical output does comply with the Carnot efficiency limitations" - = but this=20 is to the extent that is gas molecules enter at a high temperature and = leave=20 through an exhaust at lower temperature -which is only a requirement of = mass=20 transport in that situation.
 
MHD, the magneto-hydrodynamic technology which had its heyday in = the 1960s=20 but never went anywhere for this reason. Aspen's reservation applies to = a=20 situation where a gaseous medium is recirculated with the necessity of a = temperature drop. But by using recalescence combined with vortex = separation at=20 ambient temperatures,  it is arguable that an adiabatic process can = become=20 a positive feature of an experiment, rather than a negative. Here you = must set=20 the whole R-H tube spinning and have all the necessary plumbing = on-board. You=20 can use your magnetic field in a sealed environment and not worry about = the=20 necessity of a heat-sink.
 
In addition, if there is any net power it will come with a big = bonus for=20 summer-time use - a cooling (air conditioning) effect. Let's hear it for = summer.

Jones
.... with help from Harry Tuttle on the spinning vortex-tube w/=20 onboard ductwork plumbing idea.
 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C624B4.E3C8AAD0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 11:48:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TJmJv1000869; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:48:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TJmGY4000843; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:48:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:48:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:48:05 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F3240E79E6C9-173C-19005@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C7F0B74A597759-A50-E7C0@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C7F0B74A597759-A50-E7C0@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: PHEV Partners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml Go sign their petition: http://www.pluginpartners.org/ <><><><><><><> Since noone here seems to be paying attention: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113815056026555394-RLaBU5vdlo0pz9s XnAnKC0V0Ln0_20070124.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top or http://tinyurl.com/bdhlt The Wall Street Urinal seems to be interested. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 12:58:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TKw4ru028689; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:58:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TKw2JX028648; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:58:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:58:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:54:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-reply-to: <00ff01c624d9$d70f5fd0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: > Do buildings > that suffer structural failure collapse so quickly and cleanly? If not, > then the events of 9/11 require alternative explanations, IMO. > Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. Disposable architecture brought to you by the throw-away society. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 13:00:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TL0WVa030720; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:00:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TL0QAh030684; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:00:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:00:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:00:15 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7F32E23910910-173C-19150@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Who Killed the EV? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Soon to a DVD near you: http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ and the Sundance Festival. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 14:38:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TMci4s007348; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:38:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TMcfIv007319; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:38:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:38:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:38:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: >> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so >> quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require >> alternative explanations.. > Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed part of it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are too many of those floating around - such that it becomes a big distraction away from the ONE salient fact mentioned by Harry and many others. Steve Jones, a t least in this endeavor, is a giant leap more diligent (and brave) then people are giving him credit for. In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in controlled demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result of pure coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER gone down from fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other points - one scientific validate that suspicion. One key question is had an actual "demolition permit" "from the City of New York already been granted a few years earlier (to the previous owner). That's one of many claims on the 'conspiracy sites' which need to be looked into. I have even seen it on one of the sites, but it did not look official. It might indicate that someone had legitimately actually proceed to rig it earlier, and then a new owner came along who just would not remove that prior work. In which case that new owner should be pushed off the tallest remaining WTC building by the relatives of the deceased. PLUS take a stop watch and run back one of the numerous videos of the collapse at normal speed. This is very enlightening. There is no bending or buckling - as should happen when steel softens - plus get out your stop watch. According to the normal computation of gravity free-fall, the time it takes for any object (such as the top floor of WTC) to fall a given distance is given by the Kinematic Equations and Free Fall... available from such sites as: http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/1DKin/U1L6c.html Such an object will experience a downward acceleration of 9.8 m/s/s (which is often approximated to 10 m/s/s). Like any moving object, the motion of an object in free fall can be described by these equations. The height of WTC building was 420 meters, and plugging this all in and we get ~9 seconds. The News reports are in agreement with what you can time yourself - that once the collapse started, it went down in 10 seconds flat !! IOW this is ALMOST unimpeded free fall ! Think about that for a minute. This top floors of the structure went down almost as fast as if there was nothing underneath - because in effect - there was nothing. It is as if the top floor fell straight down through thin air with only minor impediment, which arguably just could not happen in that short time frame without something else going-on. In the case of WTC 7 the time is almost identical to free fall - as if the solid structure below which had not been harmed in any significant way (like a jet crash) except for fire of a temperature which all agree will not only soften steel after many hours - the fire was just not that hot. Almost every demolition expert not on government payroll says that what we would expect - timewise - and the neatness of the end product debris - is identical to there being a controlled demolition - perhaps a 10% longer time span than free fall - and straight down with no leaning. You will have unavoidable lateral movement unless you keep it to free fall range. This is what controlled demolition is designed to prevent - lateral movement. All anyone is saying is bring in the independent prosecutor and let him have at it. If Monica is worth the distration of one - aren't the families of 3000 deceased, entitled to the same consideration? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 14:55:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0TMtbHB013523; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0TMtZJ2013500; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001c01c62527$15dff970$eb027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Recalescence of Bacon Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:55:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C624F4.CA9461E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <8V_DrD.A.4SD.mfU3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C624F4.CA9461E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C624F4.CA9461E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C624F4.CA9461E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Jones, You must be reading my mind on the thought of spinning the R-H.=20 When we study a vid of the forming of a tornado, it seems impossible for = the apparent forces available to accelerate into something so awesome = and powerful. The clue is better understanding the ability to generate = may lie in studying the rapid collapse of the event rather than the = formation. In our inventory of experiments, will be the test of an independent = rotation of the magnetic piping.. The thought came to us as we observed = the turbulent water in the cube type test tank ( less the piping) and = the thought of " what if" there was an inner cylindrical shape housing = the vortex, which in turn led to the "what if" we accelerated the = cylindrical shape and finally.." waht if" the cylindrical shape was a = magnet. hmmmm!! Richard Jones wrote.. But neither of these seems immediately applicable to extremely low-grade = heat. The fourth is the Ettinghouse effect. When an electric current = flows across the lines of force of a magnetic field, an electromotive = force is observed which is at right angles to both the primary current = and the magnetic field. A temperature gradient is observed which has the = opposite direction to the Hall voltage. The last and very similar is the = Nernst Effect. When heat alone flows across lines of magnetic force, = there is observed an electromotive force in the mutually perpendicular = direction. We know that MHD works, and using the Ettinghouse or Nernst effect = "should" work as well - but whereas MHD requires ionization = temperatures, the other two do not. What about a magnetized vortex tube = containing a slurry at lower temperature? If we are looking for synergy = - then what about using an already ionized slurry (acid or base) in = which the phase-change in the metal slurry is engineered to occur around = 300 K, and the whole recirculating device is set spinning? Aspden has observed: "I am mindful that the use of magnets as a catalyst = to deflect charged ions from a heated gaseous flow so as to generate = electrical output does comply with the Carnot efficiency limitations" - = but this is to the extent that is gas molecules enter at a high = temperature and leave through an exhaust at lower temperature -which is = only a requirement of mass transport in that situation.=20 MHD, the magneto-hydrodynamic technology which had its heyday in the = 1960s but never went anywhere for this reason. Aspen's reservation = applies to a situation where a gaseous medium is recirculated with the = necessity of a temperature drop. But by using recalescence combined with = vortex separation at ambient temperatures, it is arguable that an = adiabatic process can become a positive feature of an experiment, rather = than a negative. Here you must set the whole R-H tube spinning and have = all the necessary plumbing on-board. You can use your magnetic field in = a sealed environment and not worry about the necessity of a heat-sink. In addition, if there is any net power it will come with a big bonus for = summer-time use - a cooling (air conditioning) effect. Let's hear it for = summer. Jones ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C624F4.CA9461E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Jones,
You must be reading my mind on the thought of spinning the R-H. =
When we study a vid of the forming of a tornado, it seems = impossible for=20 the apparent forces available to accelerate into something so awesome = and=20 powerful. The clue is better understanding the ability to generate may = lie in=20 studying the rapid collapse of the event rather than the = formation.
 
 In our inventory of experiments, will be the test of=20 an independent rotation of the magnetic piping.. The thought came = to us as=20 we observed the turbulent water in the cube type test tank ( less the = piping)=20 and the thought of " what if" there was an inner cylindrical shape = housing=20 the vortex, which in turn led to the "what if" we accelerated the=20 cylindrical shape and finally.." waht if" the cylindrical shape was = a=20 magnet.  hmmmm!!
 
Richard
 
Jones wrote..
 
But neither of these seems immediately = applicable=20 to extremely low-grade heat. The fourth is the Ettinghouse effect. When = an=20 electric current flows across the lines of force of a magnetic field, an = electromotive force is observed which is at right angles to both the = primary=20 current and the magnetic field. A temperature gradient is observed which = has the=20 opposite direction to the Hall voltage. The last and very similar is the = Nernst=20 Effect. When heat alone flows across lines of magnetic force, there is = observed=20 an electromotive force in the mutually perpendicular = direction.
 
We know that MHD works, and using the = Ettinghouse=20 or Nernst effect "should" work as well - but whereas MHD requires=20 ionization temperatures, the other two do not. What about a magnetized = vortex=20 tube containing a slurry at lower temperature? If we are looking = for=20 synergy - then what about using an already ionized slurry (acid or base) = in=20 which the phase-change in the metal slurry is engineered to occur around = 300 K,=20 and the whole recirculating device is set spinning?

Aspden has observed: "I am mindful that the use of magnets as a = catalyst to deflect charged ions from a heated gaseous flow so as to = generate=20 electrical output does comply with the Carnot efficiency limitations" - = but this=20 is to the extent that is gas molecules enter at a high temperature and = leave=20 through an exhaust at lower temperature -which is only a requirement of = mass=20 transport in that situation.
 
MHD, the magneto-hydrodynamic technology which had its heyday in = the 1960s=20 but never went anywhere for this reason. Aspen's reservation applies to = a=20 situation where a gaseous medium is recirculated with the necessity of a = temperature drop. But by using recalescence combined with vortex = separation at=20 ambient temperatures,  it is arguable that an adiabatic process can = become=20 a positive feature of an experiment, rather than a negative. Here you = must set=20 the whole R-H tube spinning and have all the necessary plumbing = on-board. You=20 can use your magnetic field in a sealed environment and not worry about = the=20 necessity of a heat-sink.
 
In addition, if there is any net power it will come with a big = bonus for=20 summer-time use - a cooling (air conditioning) effect. Let's hear it for = summer.

Jones

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C624F4.CA9461E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C624F4.CA9461E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c62527$152bc4a0$eb027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C624F4.CA9461E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 16:48:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U0lwfG021096; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:47:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U0lvPr021060; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:47:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:47:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c62536$48971380$b0037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:44:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4ZMmPD.A.yIF.7IW3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, Interesting that we have never heard from the original team of structural engineers that designed and supervised construction of the Towers. They may be willing to pay fifty bucks to the demolition team to find out how they did it. They put some real high grade steel in the job that must have been 300% overdesign considering the pics of the erection. Oh well, I kinda put the whole thing in the category of a mean little kid kicking over somebody's sand castle on the beach. The destruction, for what ever reason or whoever can never touch the pride of achievement of the team that built the towers.. However, that act of malice cannot match the self destruction of the industrial base of our nation. That should be our concern. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:38 PM Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > John Coviello wrote: > >>> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so quickly and >>> cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require alternative >>> explanations.. > >> Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. > > Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, > necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed part of > it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are too many of those > floating around - such that it becomes a big distraction away from the ONE > salient fact mentioned by Harry and many others. Steve Jones, a t least in > this endeavor, is a giant leap more diligent (and brave) then people are > giving him credit for. > > In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in controlled > demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result of pure > coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER gone down from > fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other points - one scientific > validate that suspicion. > > One key question is had an actual "demolition permit" "from the City of > New York already been granted a few years earlier (to the previous owner). > That's one of many claims on the 'conspiracy sites' which need to be > looked into. I have even seen it on one of the sites, but it did not look > official. It might indicate that someone had legitimately actually proceed > to rig it earlier, and then a new owner came along who just would not > remove that prior work. > > In which case that new owner should be pushed off the tallest remaining > WTC building by the relatives of the deceased. > > PLUS take a stop watch and run back one of the numerous videos of the > collapse at normal speed. This is very enlightening. > > There is no bending or buckling - as should happen when steel softens - > plus get out your stop watch. > > According to the normal computation of gravity free-fall, the time it > takes for any object (such as the top floor of WTC) to fall a given > distance is given by the Kinematic Equations and Free Fall... available > from such sites as: > http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/1DKin/U1L6c.html > > Such an object will experience a downward acceleration of 9.8 m/s/s (which > is often approximated to 10 m/s/s). Like any moving object, the motion of > an object in free fall can be described by these equations. The height of > WTC building was 420 meters, and plugging this all in and we get ~9 > seconds. > > The News reports are in agreement with what you can time yourself - that > once the collapse started, it went down in 10 seconds flat !! IOW this is > ALMOST unimpeded free fall ! > > Think about that for a minute. This top floors of the structure went down > almost as fast as if there was nothing underneath - because in effect - > there was nothing. > > It is as if the top floor fell straight down through thin air with only > minor impediment, which arguably just could not happen in that short time > frame without something else going-on. In the case of WTC 7 the time is > almost identical to free fall - as if the solid structure below which had > not been harmed in any significant way (like a jet crash) except for fire > of a temperature which all agree will not only soften steel after many > hours - the fire was just not that hot. > > Almost every demolition expert not on government payroll says that what we > would expect - timewise - and the neatness of the end product debris - is > identical to there being a controlled demolition - perhaps a 10% longer > time span than free fall - and straight down with no leaning. You will > have unavoidable lateral movement unless you keep it to free fall range. > This is what controlled demolition is designed to prevent - lateral > movement. > > All anyone is saying is bring in the independent prosecutor and let him > have at it. If Monica is worth the distration of one - aren't the families > of 3000 deceased, entitled to the same consideration? > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 17:05:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U15Vm2026662; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:05:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U15T6A026634; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:05:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:05:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060129170838.028c23b0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:08:55 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Article Tracking: Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Apparently the editor of Thermochemica Acta, Lee Hansen, allowed Shanahan a chance to prepare a rebuttal to Storms' rebuttal before Storms' rebuttal published. I suppose this is fair game, I don't know. I do know the perspective of editor Hansen on this matter. I interviewed him on Dec. 2, 2003 after being referred to him by his Brigham Young University colleague, Steve Jones. Here is Hansen's quote from my book: "The fact of the matter is Pons & Fleischmann's experiment never did demonstrate any excess heat. ... It was nothing more than experimental error." s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 17:58:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U1wLRl003352; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:58:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U1wIuG003328; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:58:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:58:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014501c62540$6c9b0070$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <8C7F32E23910910-173C-19150@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:56:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very interesting. Too bad there is no trailer available on the site (link is dead). There is definitely a conspiracy of some sort surrounding the silent dismissal of the EV. I mean, who wouldn't want a car that costs 1/4 the cost of driving a petroleum powered vehicle and is less costly to maintain as well? People loved their EVs and GM just crushed them anyway. The oil/auto industries, which surely are in collusion at some level, know the EV is the one technology that could kill the whole oil gravy train in short order. I think that is why they are literally giving EVs the cold shoulder. Plug-in hybrids are the first step to full EVs, and even those are getting no support from the auto industry. Plug-in hybrids will reduce oil consumption by 50% to 80%, EVs will once fully implemented reduce oil consumption by 100%. The oil/auto industries know this, is it really suprising that they are crushing EVs instead of developing them? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:00 PM Subject: Who Killed the EV? > Soon to a DVD near you: > > http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ > > and the Sundance Festival. > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 18:00:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U20I6N004127; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:00:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U20Bbd004054; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:57:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-reply-to: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > John Coviello wrote: > >>> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so >>> quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require >>> alternative explanations.. > >> Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. You switched me with John Coviello. ;-) > Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, > necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed > part of it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are > too many of those floating around - such that it becomes a big > distraction away from the ONE salient fact mentioned by Harry and > many others. Steve Jones, a t least in this endeavor, is a giant > leap more diligent (and brave) then people are giving him credit > for. > > In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in > controlled demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result > of pure coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER > gone down from fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other > points - one scientific validate that suspicion. A documentary on TV said the WTC twin towers were designed differently from other tall steel boxes. The outer walls formed a square tube-like structure. It may be no other buildings quite like the twin towers has ever suffered a fire. > One key question is had an actual "demolition permit" "from the > City of New York already been granted a few years earlier (to the > previous owner). That's one of many claims on the 'conspiracy > sites' which need to be looked into. I have even seen it on one of > the sites, but it did not look official. It might indicate that > someone had legitimately actually proceed to rig it earlier, and > then a new owner came along who just would not remove that prior > work. > > In which case that new owner should be pushed off the tallest > remaining WTC building by the relatives of the deceased. > > PLUS take a stop watch and run back one of the numerous videos of > the collapse at normal speed. This is very enlightening. > > There is no bending or buckling - as should happen when steel > softens - plus get out your stop watch. > > According to the normal computation of gravity free-fall, the time > it takes for any object (such as the top floor of WTC) to fall a > given distance is given by the Kinematic Equations and Free > Fall... available from such sites as: > http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/1DKin/U1L6c.html > > Such an object will experience a downward acceleration of 9.8 > m/s/s (which is often approximated to 10 m/s/s). Like any moving > object, the motion of an object in free fall can be described by > these equations. The height of WTC building was 420 meters, and > plugging this all in and we get ~9 seconds. > > The News reports are in agreement with what you can time > yourself - that once the collapse started, it went down in 10 > seconds flat !! IOW this is ALMOST unimpeded free fall ! > > Think about that for a minute. This top floors of the structure > went down almost as fast as if there was nothing underneath - > because in effect - there was nothing. > > It is as if the top floor fell straight down through thin air with > only minor impediment, which arguably just could not happen in > that short time frame without something else going-on. In the case > of WTC 7 the time is almost identical to free fall - as if the > solid structure below which had not been harmed in any significant > way (like a jet crash) except for fire of a temperature which all > agree will not only soften steel after many hours - the fire was > just not that hot. > > Almost every demolition expert not on government payroll says that > what we would expect - timewise - and the neatness of the end > product debris - is identical to there being a controlled > demolition - perhaps a 10% longer time span than free fall - and > straight down with no leaning. You will have unavoidable lateral > movement unless you keep it to free fall range. This is what > controlled demolition is designed to prevent - lateral movement. Think of collapse of top floors like a hammer from the sky. The impulsive force is transmitted down through the remaining tower faster than the speed of sound so key structures are broken before the hammer passes through them. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 18:22:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U2MMLU014604; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:22:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U2MJ7d014577; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:22:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:22:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:18:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-reply-to: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > John Coviello wrote: > >>> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so >>> quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require >>> alternative explanations.. > >> Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. You switched me with John Coviello. ;-) > Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, > necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed > part of it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are > too many of those floating around - such that it becomes a big > distraction away from the ONE salient fact mentioned by Harry and > many others. Steve Jones, a t least in this endeavor, is a giant > leap more diligent (and brave) then people are giving him credit > for. > > In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in > controlled demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result > of pure coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER > gone down from fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other > points - one scientific validate that suspicion. A documentary on TV said the WTC twin towers were designed differently from other tall steel boxes. The outer walls formed a square tube-like structure. It may be no other buildings quite like the twin towers has ever suffered a fire. > One key question is had an actual "demolition permit" "from the > City of New York already been granted a few years earlier (to the > previous owner). That's one of many claims on the 'conspiracy > sites' which need to be looked into. I have even seen it on one of > the sites, but it did not look official. It might indicate that > someone had legitimately actually proceed to rig it earlier, and > then a new owner came along who just would not remove that prior > work. > > In which case that new owner should be pushed off the tallest > remaining WTC building by the relatives of the deceased. > > PLUS take a stop watch and run back one of the numerous videos of > the collapse at normal speed. This is very enlightening. > > There is no bending or buckling - as should happen when steel > softens - plus get out your stop watch. > > According to the normal computation of gravity free-fall, the time > it takes for any object (such as the top floor of WTC) to fall a > given distance is given by the Kinematic Equations and Free > Fall... available from such sites as: > http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/1DKin/U1L6c.html > > Such an object will experience a downward acceleration of 9.8 > m/s/s (which is often approximated to 10 m/s/s). Like any moving > object, the motion of an object in free fall can be described by > these equations. The height of WTC building was 420 meters, and > plugging this all in and we get ~9 seconds. > > The News reports are in agreement with what you can time > yourself - that once the collapse started, it went down in 10 > seconds flat !! IOW this is ALMOST unimpeded free fall ! > > Think about that for a minute. This top floors of the structure > went down almost as fast as if there was nothing underneath - > because in effect - there was nothing. > > It is as if the top floor fell straight down through thin air with > only minor impediment, which arguably just could not happen in > that short time frame without something else going-on. In the case > of WTC 7 the time is almost identical to free fall - as if the > solid structure below which had not been harmed in any significant > way (like a jet crash) except for fire of a temperature which all > agree will not only soften steel after many hours - the fire was > just not that hot. > > Almost every demolition expert not on government payroll says that > what we would expect - timewise - and the neatness of the end > product debris - is identical to there being a controlled > demolition - perhaps a 10% longer time span than free fall - and > straight down with no leaning. You will have unavoidable lateral > movement unless you keep it to free fall range. This is what > controlled demolition is designed to prevent - lateral movement. Think of collapse of top floors like a hammer from the sky. The impulsive force is transmitted down through the remaining tower faster than the speed of sound so key structures are broken before the hammer passes through them. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 18:37:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U2b3P2020161; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:37:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U2b1lj020127; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:37:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:37:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DD7BBC.6080004@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:36:44 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded References: <21005011.1138546947625.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <21005011.1138546947625.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Horace Heffner writes: [ ... ] > >>It is possible there was a leak in the cap or other leak in >>the system, or that hydrogen had accumulated in the 1L-6 incubator >>during prior runs. > > > I think that is impossible. Even if it happened the gas would not > reach a high enough concentration to explode. > > The heat that drove the explosion was generated in the cell, > underwater. That is why the electrolyte temperature went up from 25 > to 80 deg C so quickly. That heating alone required far more energy > than was input into the system. > > It is a first-class mystery, unlike any other cold fusion event ever > reported, as far as I know. And, as I already observed in another recent thread, it was very different from the "accidental explosion tests" Scott Little ran, when he exploded two Mizuno-type cold fusion cells. Those certainly _were_ H/O explosions, they _were_ caused by the dissociated hydrogen and oxygen (in stoichiometric ratio) igniting, and they were apparently far less violent than Mizuno's disaster. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 29 21:14:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U5EeSf028113; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:14:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U5Ebms028078; Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:14:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:14:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43DD7BBC.6080004@pobox.com> References: <21005011.1138546947625.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43DD7BBC.6080004@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7788C6E6-9F84-4406-A047-77723FB51EF8@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:12:07 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 29, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > The heat that drove the explosion was generated in the cell, > > underwater. That is why the electrolyte temperature went up from 25 > > to 80 deg C so quickly. That heating alone required far more energy > > than was input into the system. So, the cell began to boil and popped the top off - igniting the gas in the 1L-6 incubator. The sudden heat output may be an anomaly, but the explosion does not appear to be one. > > > > It is a first-class mystery, unlike any other cold fusion event ever > > reported, as far as I know. > > And, as I already observed in another recent thread, it was very > different from the "accidental explosion tests" Scott Little ran, when > he exploded two Mizuno-type cold fusion cells. Those certainly _were_ > H/O explosions, they _were_ caused by the dissociated hydrogen and > oxygen (in stoichiometric ratio) igniting, and they were apparently > far less violent than Mizuno's disaster. > Yes - all very good evidence that the explosion was from a *lot* of gas that accumulated in the 1L-6 incubator. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 00:23:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0U8NPur023088; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:23:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0U8NNmb023070; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:23:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:23:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: <31F09FCB-B140-4A2A-AA2A-225C749FE5EE@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:20:44 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0U8NKlW023038 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I made a bunch is calculation errors on the previous posts in this thread, which was typical of me, but things are now looking about right. Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2 = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. The gravicurrent is i_g_earth = (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s. Note that i in the units here is the imaginary number (-1)^ (1/2). The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON MAGNET IN UNIFORM FIELD A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q for 90 deg precession: Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_earth = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_earth = 3.40x10^21 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg angle of precession. Knowing Q_earth = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q * sin(23.45 deg.) = Q * 0.398 Q_earth = (3.40x10^21 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * mu_g_0 * K * sin(23.45 deg.) K_ambient = Q_g/(mu_g * mu_g_0 * 0.398) K_ambient = i (1.353x10^21 N m) /((5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s) * (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)*0.398) K_ambient = i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s) SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_k_earth: mu_k_earth = 5.15x10^42 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 1.353x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s) SOME CONSEQUENCES Given EM Lorentz: F = q (v x B) We have the gK equivalent: F_g = m (v x mu_0 * K) Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(7.07x10^4 i kg/(m s))) F_g = -5.61x10^-21 N = 5.72x10^-22 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field is only 5.72x10^-22 g’s. Insignificant. EARTH GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD The field intensity in the center a conducting ring radius R and current I_ring is B = mu_0 I_ring/ (2 R) Using earth simulating ring radius 1780 km, and gravicurrent i_g_earth = 5.171x10^29 i kg/s We have the field K_g_earth = (5.171x10^29 i kg/s)/ (2* 178 km) = 1.452x10^23 i kg/(m s) which is 18 orders of magnitude larger than the ambient magnetic field i 7.07x10^4 kg/(m s). Gravimagnetic intensity: B_g_earth = mu_g_0 * K_g_earth = (9.329597x10^-27 m/kg) * (1.452x10^23 kg/(m s)) = 1.355x10^-3 Hz Interesting! Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(1.452x10^23 i kg/(m s))) F_g = 1.090 N = 0.1112 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the local earth gravimagnetic field is 0.111 g. Significant! So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the local earth gravimagnetic field at the center of earth is 0.111 g. Significant! Huge! It should not differ more than a factor of an order of magnitude at earth orbit altitude. The gravimagnetic force should be very observable. Further since at distance it is a 1/r^3 force, the tidal effects should be very observable in orbit. This may provide some wrinkles for long space tethers and space elevator construction! In the center of earth, by the right hand rule, the gravimagnetic field is directed at the North Pole, and the lines of force exit the earth’s surface in the Northern Hemisphere. However, the gravimagnetic field is oriented Southwards in space above the equator, and due to the majority of mass being in the core, it is oriented that direction even under the surface of the earth at the equator. Since mass has positive charge, but both the gravimagnetic field and charge have a factor of i, the force has a negative sign. This means, at the equator, the direction of the Lorentz gravimagnetic force is away from the earth for an object traveling west-to-east, but toward the earth for an object traveling east-to-west. The orbital velocity, V = (G M/r)^0.5, is reduced when the apparent gravity field g M is reduced. For the same altitude satellites (r fixed), the west-to-east satellite will move slower than the east-to-west satellite, because its apparent value of G M is reduced. This implies that for circular orbits, for the same speed satellites (V fixed), the earth orbit radius will be lower for a west-to-east satellite than for an east-to- west satellite. Space tethers oriented radially in space above the equator will experience seemingly inexplicable stretching tidal forces, while those oriented east-west will experience none. Directly above the poles things are different. Space tethers experience a strong tidal force when oriented broadside to the direction of travel, but not when oriented radially. At the North Pole, the satellite is diverted to the left, contrary to the earth’s spin, while at the South Pole it is diverted in the opposite direction. Between the poles the orientations gradually shift. I hope I got all that right! 8^) Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 03:37:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UBbPhd031396; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:37:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UBbMDJ031372; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:37:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014c01c62591$5233cd10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:35:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > Jones Beene wrote: > >> John Coviello wrote: >> >>>> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so >>>> quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require >>>> alternative explanations.. >> >>> Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. > > > You switched me with John Coviello. ;-) > > > >> Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, >> necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed >> part of it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are >> too many of those floating around - such that it becomes a big >> distraction away from the ONE salient fact mentioned by Harry and >> many others. Steve Jones, a t least in this endeavor, is a giant >> leap more diligent (and brave) then people are giving him credit >> for. >> >> In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in >> controlled demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result >> of pure coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER >> gone down from fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other >> points - one scientific validate that suspicion. > > > A documentary on TV said the WTC twin towers were designed differently > from other tall steel boxes. The outer walls formed a square tube-like > structure. It may be no other buildings quite like the twin towers has > ever > suffered a fire. > The statement above applies only to WTC-1 and WTC-2, both of which were hit by planes and obviously suffered some structural damage (even if there are questions about if the fires were actually hot enough to melt steel and cause the buildings to fall). However, the statement above does not apply to WTC-7, which was not hit by any planes, was not designed differently from other tall steel boxes (it was just a regular building), and did not have raging fires (even though fire has never brought down a steel framed building anyway). So, what caused WTC-7 to collapse on the afternoon of 9/11/01 remains a myster, and I believe it is fair to entertain alternative explanations. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 05:37:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UDbBN6027658; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:37:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UDb8oM027627; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:37:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:37:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DE1678.5000005@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:36:56 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Coviello CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack References: <014c01c62591$5233cd10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> In-Reply-To: <014c01c62591$5233cd10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack > > >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >>> John Coviello wrote: >>> >>>>> H.V: Do buildings that suffer structural failure collapse so >>>>> quickly and cleanly? If not, then the events of 9/11 require >>>>> alternative explanations.. >>> >>> >>>> Yes...if the buildings had been designed to be demolished. >> >> >> >> You switched me with John Coviello. ;-) >> >> >> >>> Yes, but of course it does not *have to be* part of the design, >>> necessarily, but it would be interesting to hear if it was indeed >>> part of it. That may end up being a red herring - and there are >>> too many of those floating around - such that it becomes a big >>> distraction away from the ONE salient fact mentioned by Harry and >>> many others. Steve Jones, a t least in this endeavor, is a giant >>> leap more diligent (and brave) then people are giving him credit >>> for. >>> >>> In the end this was almost a "free fall" - such as happens in >>> controlled demolition and that cannot be presumed to be the result >>> of pure coincidence, since no other building of this type has EVER >>> gone down from fire, or in a similar fashion. But two other >>> points - one scientific validate that suspicion. >> >> >> >> A documentary on TV said the WTC twin towers were designed differently >> from other tall steel boxes. The outer walls formed a square tube-like >> structure. It may be no other buildings quite like the twin towers has >> ever >> suffered a fire. >> > > The statement above applies only to WTC-1 and WTC-2, both of which were > hit by planes and obviously suffered some structural damage (even if > there are questions about if the fires were actually hot enough to melt > steel and cause the buildings to fall). Steel has a great reputation, and it always _sounds_ strong ("steel belted radials -- almost as good as fiberglass!"). But, here's something that may have been mentioned before in this group -- can't recall: On a smaller scale than skyscrapers, where one finds both wood frame and steel frame buildings of roughly similar size and shape, in a good hot fire, and all else being equal, a wood-frame building will typically stand _longer_ than a steel-frame building before collapsing. Wood doesn't melt. Wood beams must burn through from the outside, and retain a lot of their strength until much of the wood has burned away. Steel, on the other hand, heats clear through immediately by conduction, and loses most of its strength long before it actually melts. Cold-forging iron is a lot more difficult than hot-forging, even though the typical blacksmith's forge is a lot cooler than the melting point of iron. The issue of whether the fire was hot enough to _melt_ the steel beams may be another red herring -- it just had to be hot enough to soften them enough so that the already damaged supports for one floor broke. > However, the statement above > does not apply to WTC-7, which was not hit by any planes, was not > designed differently from other tall steel boxes (it was just a regular > building), and did not have raging fires (even though fire has never > brought down a steel framed building anyway). So, what caused WTC-7 to > collapse on the afternoon of 9/11/01 remains a myster, and I believe it > is fair to entertain alternative explanations. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 06:37:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UEbFO4027803; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:37:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UEbDUl027783; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:37:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:37:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:37:04 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8B9E1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYlQMkMyYx5tBuiSKGTArOhtlxvUAAaNr6g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 14:37:05.0874 (UTC) FILETIME=[A45B1B20:01C625AA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UEbA6n027710 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't see any need for any conspiracy to kill off electric cars at all. The range is awful, they take time to recharge, the battery life sucks and they are small - especially when compared to the profitable SUV's that US manufacturers produce. They suck. I wondered why car companies bothered to waste money on them in the first place, but I assume that was because of politics Now, that said IF THEY CAN DEVELOP A REALLY GOOD BATTERY, EV's will crush oil powered vehicles, no doubt. Since such batteries don't exist, my question is Why doesn't "Detroit" build a good diesel hybrid - that has mileage and acceleration - and beat the Japanese? -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc@patmedia.net] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:57 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Very interesting. Too bad there is no trailer available on the site (link is dead). There is definitely a conspiracy of some sort surrounding the silent dismissal of the EV. I mean, who wouldn't want a car that costs 1/4 the cost of driving a petroleum powered vehicle and is less costly to maintain as well? People loved their EVs and GM just crushed them anyway. The oil/auto industries, which surely are in collusion at some level, know the EV is the one technology that could kill the whole oil gravy train in short order. I think that is why they are literally giving EVs the cold shoulder. Plug-in hybrids are the first step to full EVs, and even those are getting no support from the auto industry. Plug-in hybrids will reduce oil consumption by 50% to 80%, EVs will once fully implemented reduce oil consumption by 100%. The oil/auto industries know this, is it really suprising that they are crushing EVs instead of developing them? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:00 PM Subject: Who Killed the EV? > Soon to a DVD near you: > > http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ > > and the Sundance Festival. > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 06:38:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UEcTjB028529; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:38:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UEcR8J028507; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:38:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:38:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F3C1F18C681C-21EC-39C0@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <014c01c62591$5233cd10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <43DE1678.5000005@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43DE1678.5000005@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UEcPWW028476 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence   The issue of whether the fire was hot enough to _melt_ the steel beams may be another red herring -- it just had to be hot enough to soften them enough so that the already damaged supports for one floor broke.  <><><><><><><><><> The National Institute of Standards and Technology issued their final analysis: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Fina l.pdf or http://tinyurl.com/cft59 stating that the likely cause of the collapse was *both* debris and fire. Most conspiracy videos do not show the collapse of the east penthouse, a structure added to the building after its construction. The penthouse structural failure preceeded the the global collapse of the building by 8.2 seconds. See slide 26 for the failure timeline. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 06:53:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UEqbCu002461; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:52:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UEqZes002436; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:52:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:52:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601301452.k0UEqUvu030851@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:52:25 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: CNNMoney.com: Beat High Cost of Gasoline. Forever! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_c339a8c9005085c18e6d83ca6907f363" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_c339a8c9005085c18e6d83ca6907f363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI See: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/8367959/index.htm?cnn=yes or http://tinyurl.com/cvb9s There is a fairly extensive CnnMoney.com article on the claimed advantages of converting to Ethanol. They talk about Brazil's success along with other factors as well. The article discusses the advantages of modifying cars so that they can easily switch between petroleum and ethanol. (That part makes a lot of sense to me.) However, I wonder how much hidden energy may be used in the form of expensive fertilizer just to grow the crops that ultimately make the ethanol. From what I have heard, when those hidden factors are weighed in the sudden panacea suddenly can suddenly evaporate, sometimes actually going into the negative. I'm curious what other Vorts may have to say about this article. Let the debate begin! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_c339a8c9005085c18e6d83ca6907f363 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI See:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/8367959/i= ndex.htm?cnn=3Dyes
or
http://tinyurl.com/cvb9s

There is a fairly extensive CnnMoney.com article on the claimed advantages = of converting to Ethanol. They talk about Brazil's success along with other= factors as well. The article discusses the advantages of modifying cars so= that they can easily switch between petroleum and ethanol. (That part make= s a lot of sense to me.)

However, I wonder how much hidden energy may be used in the form of expensi= ve fertilizer just to grow the crops that ultimately make the ethanol. From= what I have heard, when those hidden factors are weighed in the sudden pan= acea suddenly can suddenly evaporate, sometimes actually going into the neg= ative.

I'm curious what other Vorts may have to say about this article.

Let the debate begin!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_c339a8c9005085c18e6d83ca6907f363-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 07:05:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UF5V9B009699; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:05:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UF5Rcp009658; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:05:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:05:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:05:17 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F3C5B6EC650E-21EC-3ABD@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8B9E1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8B9E1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1uwmVB.A.2WC.3si3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris I wondered why car companies bothered to waste money on them in the first place, but I assume that was because of politics <><><><><><><> See the summary below. Most owners of the EV-1 loved the vehicle. http://dontcrush.com/ Terry "It was among the fastest, most efficient production car ever built. It ran on electricity, produced no emissions and catapulted American technology to the forefront of the automotive industry. The lucky few who drove it never wanted to give it up. So why did General Motors crush its fleet of EV-1 electric vehicles in the Arizona desert? "Who Killed the Electric Car?" chronicles the life and mysterious death of the EV-1; examining the cultural and economic ripple effects caused by its conception and how they reverberated through the halls of government and big business. The year is 1990. California is in a pollution crisis. The smog is so bad that the state is on the verge of returning to the haze days of the 1970's brown outs. Desperate for a solution, the California Air Recourses Board (CARB) targets the source of its problem: Car exhaust. Inspired by a recent announcement from General Motors about an electric vehicle prototype, the Zero Emissions Mandate (ZEV) is born. It requires 2% of California's vehicles to be emission free by 1998, 10% by 2003. It is the most radical smog fighting mandate since the catalytic converter. Eager to satisfy the largest car consuming market in the world, GM's EV-1 electric vehicle is launched in 1997 with great fanfare from California consumers. It was the first perfect car of the modern age, requiring no gas, no oil, no mufflers, and no brake changes (a billion dollar industry unto itself.) A typical maintenance checkup for the EV-1 consisted of replenishing the windshield washer fluid and a tire rotation. Fast forward to 6 years later... The fleet is dead. EV charging stations dot the California landscape like tombstones, collecting dust and spider webs. How could this happen? Did anyone bother to examine the bodies? Yes, in fact, someone did. And it was murder. The EV-1 threatened the status quo; the truth behind its murder closely resembling the climactic outcome of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express. Multiple suspects, each taking their turn with the knife. Automakers, legislators, engineers, consumers and car enthusiasts from Los Angeles to Detroit work through the motives, alibis and fallout to piece the complex puzzle together. "Who Killed the Electric Car?" is not just about the EV-1. It's about how this allegory for today's oil prices and air quality can also be a shining symbol of society's desire to better itself and the world around it. For a brief moment in time, we were closer to that dream than we'd ever been before, and while that knowledge may have been crushed, it has not been forgotten." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 07:22:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UFLoNk017342; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:21:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UFLmYa017325; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:21:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:21:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130101921.034d17c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:21:35 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: <8C7F3C5B6EC650E-21EC-3ABD@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8B9E1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C7F3C5B6EC650E-21EC-3ABD@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3a7l9B.A.pOE.M8i3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >. . . GM's EV-1 electric vehicle is launched in 1997 with great >fanfare from California consumers. It was the first perfect car of >the modern age, requiring no gas, no oil, no mufflers, and no brake >changes (a billion dollar industry unto itself.) Why would there be no brake changes? Electric and hybrid cars have regenerative braking but they also have ordinary brakes as well. I suppose it would be less wear and tear on the brakes but eventually they would need service. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 07:30:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UFTtC5020650; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:29:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UFTrgv020632; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:29:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:29:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:29:28 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: CNNMoney.com: Beat High Cost of Gasoline. Forever! Message-ID: <43DE14B8.30322.4C41856@enki.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200601301452.k0UEqUvu030851@mail2.mx.voyager.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki@cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:42:07 -0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.102.200.90 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.102.200.90 X-Return-Path: enki@cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:42:11 -0200 Resent-Message-ID: <6_9zP.A.UCF.xDj3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 Jan 2006 at 8:52, OrionWorks wrote: > > FYI See: > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/836795 > 9/index.htm?cnn=yes > or > http://tinyurl.com/cvb9s > > There is a fairly extensive CnnMoney.com article on the claimed > advantages of converting to Ethanol. They talk about Brazil's success > along with other factors as well. The article discusses the advantages > of modifying cars so that they can easily switch between petroleum and > ethanol. (That part makes a lot of sense to me.) > Here in Brazil you can buy a new car equiped with a "FlexPower" motor that runs on gasoline AND/OR Ethanol, your choice, no switches to turn. Every major car brand make them: GM, VW, Fiat,... Mark Jordan From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 07:49:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UFmvt6029778; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:48:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UFmkPg029692; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:48:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601301548.k0UFmi35065442@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:48:38 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: CNNMoney.com: Beat High Cost of Gasoline. Forever! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_cda539d0b4e38482d903f8b3b5a062e3" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_cda539d0b4e38482d903f8b3b5a062e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Mark Jordan > >> FYI See: >> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/836795 >> 9/index.htm?cnn=yes >> or >> http://tinyurl.com/cvb9s >> >> There is a fairly extensive CnnMoney.com article on the claimed >> advantages of converting to Ethanol. They talk about Brazil's success >> along with other factors as well. The article discusses the advantages >> of modifying cars so that they can easily switch between petroleum and >> ethanol. (That part makes a lot of sense to me.) Here in Brazil you can buy a new car equiped with a "FlexPower" motor that runs on gasoline AND/OR Ethanol, your choice, no switches to turn. Every major car brand make them: GM, VW, Fiat,... Mark Jordan Mark, What's your impression on whether they actually save Brazil energy. It would seem that they most certainly DO. I seem to recall, however, that others on Vortex-l have debated quite convincingly that the opposite could happen when one weighs in the less obvious factors such as the amount energy consumed (often in the guise of imported foreign oil) as fertilizer just to grow the ethanol crops. Never the less, it would seem that Brazil has managed it rather well since I gather they no longer import foreign oil. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_cda539d0b4e38482d903f8b3b5a062e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: Mark Jordan
>
>> FYI See:
>> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/836795=
>> 9/index.htm?cnn=3Dyes
>> or
>> http://tinyurl.com/cvb9s
>>
>> There is a fairly extensive CnnMoney.com article on the claimed
>> advantages of converting to Ethanol. They talk about Brazil's success >> along with other factors as well. The article discusses the advantages <= br /> >> of modifying cars so that they can easily switch between petroleum and <= br /> >> ethanol. (That part makes a lot of sense to me.)

Here in Brazil you can buy a new car equiped with a "FlexPower" motor
that runs on gasoline AND/OR Ethanol, your choice, no switches to turn.
Every major car brand make them: GM, VW, Fiat,...

Mark Jordan

Mark,

What's your impression on whether they actually save Brazil energy. It woul= d seem that they most certainly DO.

I seem to recall, however, that others on Vortex-l have debated quite convi= ncingly that the opposite could happen when one weighs in the less obvious = factors such as the amount energy consumed (often in the guise of imported = foreign oil) as fertilizer just to grow the ethanol crops.

Never the less, it would seem that Brazil has managed it rather well since = I gather they no longer import foreign oil.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_cda539d0b4e38482d903f8b3b5a062e3-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 07:59:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UFwtT4003269; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:58:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UFwrJ1003246; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:58:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DE37D7.5050206@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:59:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <43D2BAF2.1FF65DDE@centurytel.net> <83A42DC0-1A5D-4FC0-A803-B6CC72E488E4@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <83A42DC0-1A5D-4FC0-A803-B6CC72E488E4@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:51 PM, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >> >> Source: David de Hilster (david@dehilster.com) >> >> ``Dr. Domina Eberle Spencer still has the raw data from >> the Hafele- Keating experiment (atomic clocks on planes >> in 1972) which she examined in 1996 and concluded that >> that data to prove Einstein was fabricated. She is a >> brilliant mathematician and has agreed to be interviewed >> on the subject for our documentary film. > > > That should be an interesting film, but I doubt anything substantive > would be put on film. I hope she publishes. Without the critical > data, it is not possible to reach any conclusions. In fact, even with > the data, the only conclusion might be there is a need for more data. Since last posting to this thread, I've read one paper deconstructing the H-K experiment and read a bit more about the topic in general. It appears to me that the H-K experiment was indeed BOGUS. It wasn't supposed to be that way -- the intent of the researchers was apparently pure -- but in the end it suffered from "Not Enough Rats" syndrome. This problem is common in biology and the social sciences but unusual in a physics experiment. Here's a sketch of how it happens in a biology lab: A researcher whom we'll call Bob wants to determine the effect of diet on the neurotransmitter Poodlecatamousitine. He understands statistics well enough to analyze his results with no difficulty, but is none the less a little shaky on the use of statistics during the experimental design phase (this is all too common, don't say it doesn't happen!). But he _guesses_ that 20 rats in each of his two experimental groups and 20 more in the control group should produce a clear enough result. But rats are expensive, grant money's tight, and he decides he can make do with just 10 rats in each group. But three of the rats get Rat Flue and check out before the end of the experiment, there's an air conditioner failure and two more shuffle off this mortal coil, ALF raiders get several more, and one of the "male" rats gets pregnant and is disqualified. Two others refuse to eat the special diet and are also disqualified. They get to the end of the experiment, and it's time to gather data. But the only way to get good readings on Poodlecatamousitine levels is to sacrifice the rats in total darkness, by beheading them while they sleep, and then take brain slices (don't laugh; I knew someone who had to do exactly this in a rat experiment). Unfortunately the grad students find this difficult to carry out. One gets bitten and yells, waking up several rats; they're disqualified. Two rats get mixed up in the dark, and so they're out, too. And one of the "brain slices" turns out to contain almost nothing but human finger tissue, and so it's no good. In the end Bob has data for 4 test rats in group A, 5 in group B, and just three control rats. The "large effect" he hoped to obtain turns out to be a difference of just 2% in the levels, and it's ... **Not Statistically Significant**. Oops. But this represents months of work, so maybe Bob publishes anyway. Back to the H-K experiment... H-K flew 4 clocks around the world, but it appears that they should have used several times that number. It seems that portable cesium clocks are not the paragons of reliability I had thought they were and the clock drift rates -- and rates of change in the drift rates! -- were erratic and large compared with the effect being measured. All but one of the clocks they used showed large (and obvious) changes in drift rates, and the last clock, which didn't _obviously_ have a large change in drift rate (but may none the less have changed drift rate more than once during the flights), didn't show the Sagnac effect. I don't know if it's possible to do a good stat test on their results but the discussion I read made it sound like their results would not have gotten over the bar had they been properly analyzed. H-K apparently chose to publish anyway, and in fact, they supposedly didn't release their raw data until a very long time after the paper was published. That's always a red flag, of course -- if there's nothing to hide, there's no reason not to release the raw data. In this case it appears to me that the experiment really proved nothing either way except to show that, if we want to test this effect using that method, either better clocks or more clocks are needed, or they need to use much faster aircraft (the magnitude of the predicted effect doesn't change if you go faster, but the noise level would be reduced). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:00:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UFxxs8003750; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:59:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UFxuR9003721; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:59:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:59:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130105205.034e31d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:59:42 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-Reply-To: <43DE1678.5000005@pobox.com> References: <014c01c62591$5233cd10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <43DE1678.5000005@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >On a smaller scale than skyscrapers, where one finds both wood frame >and steel frame buildings of roughly similar size and shape, in a >good hot fire, and all else being equal, a wood-frame building will >typically stand _longer_ than a steel-frame building before collapsing. This was discovered in the 1960s and 70s at the National Bureau of Standards. They sent experts to look at burned warehouses and other buildings, and they constructed a huge laboratory to burn houses and other structures indoors at their Gaithersburg, MD campus. My father worked there at the time and I went out to see it. Based on this research, construction standards were revised and steel is now enclosed in concrete. However, I believe that even now some wooden structures have survived fire better than steel does. When the twin towers were struck by airplanes, leading experts knew right away they would soon collapse the way they did -- straight down. One of these experts try to contact officials in New York to warn them to evacuate the building, but he could not get through. He said the only surprise was that the buildings held up as long as they did. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:10:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UGAHsZ010320; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:10:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UG4SKq006260; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:04:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:04:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:04:01 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYlrrBpSjmSumTgSqSxZWywBOs3UAABoAaQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 16:04:02.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9C982A0:01C625B6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UG4Gjm006148 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your "Startrek Syndrome" evidence changes nothing. Electric cars suck. Allow me to explain: You have a small, vocal group of enthusiasts who protest loudly about some product they think is wonderful ( "Please don't cancel Startrek/Buffy!") A large company realizes that the product is a joke that will bring them no real profit in a mass market, despite the loud screams of fixated Fanatics. Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over night Toys. The lack of a Really Good Battery killed electric cars and no conspiracy is necessary. Find a miracle battery - and , yes, YOU WILL KILL THE OIL COMPANIES. -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:05 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris I wondered why car companies bothered to waste money on them in the first place, but I assume that was because of politics <><><><><><><> See the summary below. Most owners of the EV-1 loved the vehicle. http://dontcrush.com/ Terry "It was among the fastest, m Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:15:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UGF9mw013462; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:15:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UGF8ew013437; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:15:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:14:53 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: CNNMoney.com: Beat High Cost of Gasoline. Forever! Message-ID: <43DE1F5D.18379.4EDAEAD@enki.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200601301548.k0UFmi35065442@mail2.mx.voyager.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31) Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-11344.82685613" X-Authenticated-Sender: enki@cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:27:15 -0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 200.102.200.90 X-MDRemoteIP: 200.102.200.90 X-Return-Path: enki@cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:27:17 -0200 Resent-Message-ID: <1dFDdB.A.5RD.Luj3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --Alt-Boundary-11344.82685613 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body On 30 Jan 2006 at 9:48, OrionWorks wrote: > Here in Brazil you can buy a new car equiped with a "FlexPower" motor > that runs on gasoline AND/OR Ethanol, your choice, no switches to turn. > Every major car brand make them: GM, VW, Fiat,... > > Mark Jordan > > Mark, > > What's your impression on whether they actually save Brazil energy. It > would seem that they most certainly DO. > I seem to recall, however, that others on Vortex-l have debated quite > convincingly that the opposite could happen when one weighs in the less > obvious factors such as the amount energy consumed (often in the guise > of imported foreign oil) as fertilizer just to grow the ethanol crops. I have mixed feeling here. The government subsidizes the Ethanol industry to lower the prices. And to the final user the cost/km is almost the same as using gasoline. Sometimes a bit higher. Ten years ago the government reduced the Ethanol industry subsidy and the price at the pump got very high, making the Ethanol cars almost disappear due to the cost/km. So they decided to mix Ethanol to the gasoline. Now our gasoline is almost 25% Ethanol. The car industry had to make engine adjustments to run with the new fuel. > Never the less, it would seem that Brazil has managed it rather well > since I gather they no longer import foreign oil. I'm not completelly sure about that, but I think we import foreign oil and export, too. Mark Jordan --Alt-Boundary-11344.82685613 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body
On 30 Jan 2006 at 9:48, OrionWorks wrote:

> Here in Brazil you can buy a new car equiped with a "FlexPower" motor
> that runs on gasoline AND/OR Ethanol, your choice, no switches to turn.
> Every major car brand make them: GM, VW, Fiat,...
>
> Mark Jordan
>
> Mark,
>
> What's your impression on whether they actually save Brazil energy. It
> would seem that they most certainly DO.
> I seem to recall, however, that others on Vortex-l have debated quite
> convincingly that the opposite could happen when one weighs in the less
> obvious factors such as the amount energy consumed (often in the guise
> of imported foreign oil) as fertilizer just to grow the ethanol crops.

     I have mixed feeling here. The government subsidizes the Ethanol
industry to lower the prices. And to the final user the cost/km is
almost the same as using gasoline. Sometimes a bit higher. 
     Ten years ago the government reduced the Ethanol industry subsidy
and the price at the pump got very high, making the Ethanol cars almost disappear due to the cost/km.
     So they decided to mix Ethanol to the gasoline. Now our gasoline
is almost 25% Ethanol. The car industry had to make engine adjustments
to run with the new fuel.

> Never the less, it would seem that Brazil has managed it rather well
> since I gather they no longer import foreign oil.

     I'm not completelly sure about that, but I think we import foreign
oil and export, too.

     Mark Jordan
--Alt-Boundary-11344.82685613-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:22:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UGMTVP018352; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:22:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UGMJQ0018256; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:22:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:22:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Why Good Cars Get Crushed Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:19:45 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BAF2@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Why Good Cars Get Crushed Thread-Index: AcYluPuxf70CxJiVRxqGZcaDqYeQjQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 16:19:45.0779 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBF20430:01C625B8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UGMDbS018175 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A True story: I was visiting a local junkyard several years ago and noticed a number of late model Nissan vans in the lot. I asked how much they were and was told "Not for sale". It seems that a few of this model had engine fires and Nissan couldn't find an immediate reason why, so they paid people off and destroyed them. Car companies do this to avoid liability and warranties and hassles. It's just easier and simpler. You'll also notice that perfectly good useable buildings are invariably torn down to build new buildings ( Walmart comes to mind, in my locale). It's just simpler and quicker. Confront a major car company with a group of emotional electric car fanatics - who will bother and annoy them and claim warranties and demand service and demand parts supplies for years to come ... And what happens? They crush the vehicles. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:27:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UGR6tu020924; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:27:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UGR4Ms020875; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:27:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:27:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:24:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130101921.034d17c0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >> . . . GM's EV-1 electric vehicle is launched in 1997 with great >> fanfare from California consumers. It was the first perfect car of >> the modern age, requiring no gas, no oil, no mufflers, and no brake >> changes (a billion dollar industry unto itself.) > > Why would there be no brake changes? Electric and hybrid cars have > regenerative braking but they also have ordinary brakes as well. I > suppose it would be less wear and tear on the brakes but eventually > they would need service. > > - Jed > > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? A frictionless breaking system based on electromagnetic forces would be possible but it would not be practical since it would consume electrical energy rather than generate it. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 08:37:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UGaiU2028742; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:36:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UGafbl028711; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:36:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:36:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130112305.0349db18@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:36:21 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, >gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over >night Toys. I think you are wrong about that. Millions of people would love to have an electric car with a 75-mile range if it costs about as much as a comparable gasoline model. I would love to have one! I seldom drive the Geo Metro more than 10 miles per day, and it does not go over 55 mph (except maybe downhill). (My wife drives the Prius.) Hundreds of millions of people may prefer gasoline vehicles, but a vehicle with a 75-mile range would be a strong niche product with more than enough people to support profitable production. A lot stronger than motorcycles, I think. Clayton Christensen wrote an interesting chapter about this in the book The Innovator's Dilemma. He said, among other things, that parents with teenage children might want to buy underpowered limited range electric cars precisely because they cannot go 120 mph or 100 miles away from home. Most American families already have a gasoline car, so this would be a second car for urban dwellers. As such, it is a lot more practical, safer and faster than a bicycle, motorcycle or taxicab. Millions of people live in cities after all. These cars have advantages besides eco-friendliness. As noted in the article they cost less to run and to maintain. They are simple and long-lasting. Traditional lead acid batteries may not last long but they can be recycled. If GM had engineered and marketed their EV properly they would be selling 100,000 a year by now. However, the hybrid gasoline car makes pure EVs obsolete, and the plug-in hybrid makes all other vehicles obsolete and not worth considering -- and that includes ethanol fueled vehicles. The only reasonable alternative to a gasoline plug-in hybrid is a diesel plug-in hybrid. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 09:13:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UHCwLj019859; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:12:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UHCZAA019672; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:12:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:12:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DE492C.6040400@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:13:16 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus References: <2.2.32.20060120081814.00a1974c@pop.freeserve.net> <43D0E779.3000305@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <43D0E779.3000305@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [ snip stuff on Sagnac effect] > > As I mentioned previously, this can be demonstrated without the use of > any clocks, and in fact it is demonstrated all the time. Current > generation inertial navigation systems use ring-laser gyroscopes which > only work as a result of this effect. In a ring-laser gyro the signal > is a a light pulse carried in a fiber optic cable, and it travels at > roughly 3/4 C relative to the rim of the disk. The signal speed is the > same in both directions, relative to the disk (signal speed on a moving > body is trivial to measure, and if it weren't invariant with respect to > the motion, moving computers would not work). The arrival time > difference is measured by looking at interference fringe shifts between > the counter-traversing pulses, and it's used to determine the rate at > which the disk is turning, which datum is used by the navigation system. Well, well. I did a little more reading on this, and the thing I'm describing here is not a "ring-laser gyroscope" at all. A ring-laser gyro is a very weird beast which apparently uses a laser tube in the shape of a ring, and uses some very strange properties of standing waves in order to operate. Quite different from this. The thing I was describing is apparently called an "IFOG", which stands for "Interferometric Fiber-Optic Gyro". Real devices use very long fiber optic coils, with perhaps 1000 turns in the coil; 1000 turns results in 1000x the phase change which would result from a single loop. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 09:38:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UHc9W7001456; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:38:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UHc8gp001430; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:38:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:38:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130113648.034a2b18@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:42:53 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130101921.034d17c0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <09B58.A.RW._7k3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > Why would there be no brake changes? Electric and hybrid cars have > > regenerative braking but they also have ordinary brakes as well. >Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? No, I mean they use the electric motor as a generator, and this puts a load on the wheels. The electric power it generates is stored in the battery. This slows the car down, but to stop rapidly the car also needs ordinary brakes. (I suppose it also needs them in case the motor fails.) >A frictionless breaking system based on electromagnetic forces >would be possible but it would not be practical since it would consume >electrical energy rather than generate it. As far as I know it would have to generate electricity. The energy has to go somewhere. With ordinary brakes, all of the energy turns into waste heat. I saw a dramatic demonstration of that the other day driving behind a beat-up bread delivery truck down a steep mountain in Virginia. By the time we reached the valley, stinking white smoke was pouring out of the brakes. The driver did not even slow down. I get a feeling he makes that delivery every day. One of these days he is not going to stop at end of the road. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 09:57:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UHvL6X012443; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UHvIa8012409; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:52:03 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F3DD034E19DC-21EC-4049@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <20060120164427.13700.qmail@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43D25063.43D715D8@centurytel.net> <43D2BAF2.1FF65DDE@centurytel.net> <83A42DC0-1A5D-4FC0-A803-B6CC72E488E4@mtaonline.net> <43DE37D7.5050206@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43DE37D7.5050206@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: The Horace Hiatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence H-K flew 4 clocks around the world, but it appears that they should have used several times that number. <><><><><><><><> Interesting thing is, no atomic clock will ever be perfect although the Bhor model would lead one to believe it could be. The ironic thing is that it is the bound electron's interaction with virtual particles (aka vacuum, aether, Beta-atm) which is the reason according to Nobel Laureate Robert B. Laughlin: http://nobelprize.org/physics/laureates/1998/laughlin-autobio.html (I can't seem to find the specific quote at the moment.) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 09:58:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UHvekc012572; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UHvWma012510; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:57:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DE4576.1010707@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:57:26 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060130112305.0349db18@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130112305.0349db18@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > >> Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, >> gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over >> night Toys. > > > I think you are wrong about that. Millions of people would love to have > an electric car with a 75-mile range if it costs about as much as a > comparable gasoline model. I would love to have one! I seldom drive the > Geo Metro more than 10 miles per day, and it does not go over 55 mph > (except maybe downhill). (My wife drives the Prius.) Hundreds of > millions of people may prefer gasoline vehicles, but a vehicle with a > 75-mile range would be a strong niche product with more than enough > people to support profitable production. A lot stronger than > motorcycles, I think. One reason GM is in such trouble is that they can't make money selling niche products. They can't make money on a model unless they sell a major giant-sized boatload of them (I don't recall the actual numbers off hand unfortunately). If Nissan (which also has its problems) had been selling them they might have thought the sales numbers were great, but Nissan has a long history of selling into niche markets in Japan. A number of Japanese manufacturers have figured out how to sell low-volume models at a profit -- but not GM. > Clayton Christensen wrote an interesting chapter about this in the book > The Innovator's Dilemma. He said, among other things, that parents with > teenage children might want to buy underpowered limited range electric > cars precisely because they cannot go 120 mph or 100 miles away from > home. Most American families already have a gasoline car, so this would > be a second car for urban dwellers. As such, it is a lot more practical, > safer and faster than a bicycle, motorcycle or taxicab. Millions of > people live in cities after all. > > These cars have advantages besides eco-friendliness. As noted in the > article they cost less to run and to maintain. They are simple and > long-lasting. Traditional lead acid batteries may not last long but they > can be recycled. If GM had engineered and marketed their EV properly > they would be selling 100,000 a year by now. And maybe that would be enough for GM to make an adequate profit on them, or maybe it wouldn't. The folks who make the Excalibur would faint at the thought of such numbers, and before being bought by Ford I dare say Mazda would have been happy with quantities like that too. But the Elephant of Michigan needs real volume to be happy with a model. > However, the hybrid > gasoline car makes pure EVs obsolete, and the plug-in hybrid makes all > other vehicles obsolete and not worth considering -- and that includes > ethanol fueled vehicles. The only reasonable alternative to a gasoline > plug-in hybrid is a diesel plug-in hybrid. Is this really true? A pure EV car would be lighter, simpler, and cheaper than a hybrid. The only place it falls down on is range. For decades people have been saying there's a niche market there for cheap and efficient range-limited vehicles, and I don't see how the presence of hybrids changes that. But regardless, General Motors won't be one of the companies making them. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 10:03:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UI3Q45016340; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:03:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UI3MM4016307; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:03:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:03:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:03:11 -0500 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C7F3DE9146E77A-21EC-40C0@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <4eqPCC.A.r-D.qTl3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? <><><><><><><> It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 specs: http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h tm or http://tinyurl.com/ckaju ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 10:33:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UIWpMe001061; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:32:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UIWngv001037; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:32:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:32:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: The Coming Rebirth of the EV Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:32:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 18:32:47.0658 (UTC) FILETIME=[918418A0:01C625CB] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Progress in our labs continues and suggests that with sufficient financial support, now a high probability, we will meet the goal of a 1kW Magnetic Power Module(tm) pre-manufacturing prototype by the end of this year. The most likely unit is a transformer conversion. If this proves practical, as now seems to me a good bet, it will be about the size and weight of a large microwave oven. While the target market for such generators is homes, etc., -- removing the need for a plug-in hybrid to plug-in should be possible in about a year. The wall socket in projected Prius conversions of this type provides 1 kW. That provides 60 miles of driving using an augmented battery pack. As a harbinger of the future, we will modify a plug-in hybrid so that the recharge comes from the Module. A few sheets on our website: www.magneticpowerinc.com may prove of interest. A year ago this month, we filed a Provisional Patent Application on a very different Module. The Utility Patent Application has now been filed on this invention. If it performs as anticipated from a rough test on a very small prototype, it may provide 50 kW in the same space as the engine of a Prius. By the end of next year perhaps we can replace a hybrid engine and demonstrate the potential for all new cars produced following 2010 to be electric. They will have no need to recharge conventionally. Burning fossil fuel may never have been necessary. See the Chronology in the first item on the website for an explanation. The surprisingly rapid melting of the permafrost indicates a planetary emergency is at hand. Replacing all power systems that produce heat as rapidly as is possible may prove necessary for human survival. Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 11:02:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UJ2HqI014897; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:02:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UJ2ER6014862; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:02:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:02:01 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BD01@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYlxsTPgKhp5W8hRWuIjccVygxYjAABq5JQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 19:02:02.0222 (UTC) FILETIME=[A75150E0:01C625CF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UJ27jI014685 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > >> Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants >> wasteful, gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", >> recharge - over night Toys. > > US car manufacturers can't make money on small cars - worse yet, GM is having trouble making money on any vehicle sold. Much of their profit has been made on the financing arm. If you really think that "millions" want one of these toys, then successful niche builders like the Japanese should be making them. If they aren't, then they likely have concluded it's a bad deal. Maybe Subaru will come out with a lithium based one in 2010, but we'll see. It's the battery - that's the key. Everything else is in place for an explosion of electric vehicles to emerge IF you can find a Really Good Battery. In summary, there are too many sinister explanations for things that are easily explained by pedestrian economics. Alternative energy has never gotten mainstream because businesses know that their plans could collapse anytime the Saudis ( the swing producers) OPEN UP A VALVE and pump $20 a barrel oil. ..............but that may soon change ( Thank God) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 11:30:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UJThMj002858; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:29:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UJTeX5002808; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:29:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:29:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130141737.0351e148@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:22:27 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BD01@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BD01@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >If you really think that "millions" want one of these toys, then >successful niche builders like the Japanese should be making them. Yes. I think millions want them and the Japanese should be making them. But up until this year, they did not think so! Now they are introducing some pure EVs. They should sell in Japan, China and S. E. Asia, but I doubt they can compete with hybrids in North America. Our driving distances are too long. >Alternative energy has never gotten mainstream because businesses >know that their plans could collapse anytime the Saudis ( the swing >producers) OPEN UP A VALVE and pump $20 a barrel oil. That's true, but it is no longer the case. Production is probably maxed out. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 11:44:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UJi25P013465; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:44:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UJi0wF013427; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:44:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:44:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130142324.03498060@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:43:38 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: <43DE4576.1010707@pobox.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060130112305.0349db18@mindspring.com> <43DE4576.1010707@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>The only reasonable alternative to a gasoline plug-in hybrid is a >>diesel plug-in hybrid. > >Is this really true? A pure EV car would be lighter, simpler, and >cheaper than a hybrid. The only place it falls down on is range. I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling, having driven a hybrid. I as told Chris Zell, an EV might work in Japan or China, but not the U.S. Here are some reasons. People do drive long distances in the US. Plus, even if you normally drive only short distances, there are bound to be times when you need to go farther. Suppose you drive 30 miles on Monday and you plan to drive 40 on Tuesday but you forget to plug the thing in overnight. Or suppose you are moving to another town, or you have a temporary job assignment that calls for a much longer commute than normal. Or your gasoline car is in the shop. Hybrids seem to have a head start. I expect the premium for the hybrid ICE motor is smaller than it was at first, and it will continue to decrease. A pure EV requires many more batteries which are expensive. (A plug-in hybrid will not need as many batteries as a pure EV.) Once the technology comes along that answers a need, or fills a niche market, it becomes more difficult for a second technology to displace it, even when the second one has some advantages. >For decades people have been saying there's a niche market there for >cheap and efficient range-limited vehicles, and I don't see how the >presence of hybrids changes that. Well, hybrids are reasonably cheap and getting cheaper, and they are efficient. The plug-in variety will have nearly every advantage of the EV. The only added complexity in them will be the ICE and the gas tank. The transmission does not seem expensive, and it is rugged and simple. The software used to control this complex combination of motors and transmission probably cost hundreds of millions of dollars to develop, but it's paid for, and I doubt the cost comes to much per vehicle. In other words, if hybrids did not exist yet and you had to create one from scratch at the same time others were developing EV, it would be more difficult to compete, but they have bloomed in the absence of EVs. They have the advantages of "contingency and incumbency" as Gould put it. (See my book, chapter 7, section 2.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 11:51:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UJoDPi016748; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:51:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UJWX3n004915; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:32:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:32:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DE6A05.4080501@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:33:25 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack References: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <000e01c62536$48971380$b0037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <000e01c62536$48971380$b0037841@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Hi Jones, > Interesting that we have never heard from the original team of > structural engineers that designed and supervised construction of the > Towers. We certainly have! The chief designer gave a presentation on it shortly after the collapse. IIRC, he explained exactly what had happened, how it came down, how the floors pancaked once one of them let go, and said that it had been built to withstand _almost_ what it was subjected to but that the fully-fueled aircraft which hit it where larger than what it could handle. As I recall, he was said to have finished by sobbing, "I wish they'd stayed up a little longer!" I didn't see it, I just read excerpts after the fact. Don't recall where it was or who the live audience was. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 12:17:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UKHHda031130; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UKHG4e031109; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130150059.0351e148@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:16:54 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-Reply-To: <43DE6A05.4080501@pobox.com> References: <005401c62524$bc4337d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <000e01c62536$48971380$b0037841@xptower> <43DE6A05.4080501@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >We certainly have! The chief designer gave a presentation on it >shortly after the collapse. IIRC, he explained exactly what had >happened, how it came down, how the floors pancaked . . . > >As I recall, he was said to have finished by sobbing, "I wish they'd >stayed up a little longer!" I think I remember seeing something like that on the Discovery Channel. Several experts were interviewed. The guy I recall, who said he tried to contact the authorities in New York, was a leading British structural engineer. In other words, many different experts independently predicted the collapse before it occurred, and many others examined the steel and other components from the building to confirm the sequence of events. There were no surprises and no major unanswered questions. There is no need -- or room -- for the kinds of doubts and conspiracy theories and urban myths that Jones is peddling. To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton, Jones shows that when a man stops believing in experiments, he will believe in anything. Several of the experts interviewed said they were amazed the buildings stayed up as long as they did, and it was a credit to the designers. They said they did not think any other building then standing would have held up better. In light of these events, some skyscrapers built after 9/11 have been reinforced more, and they might survive better. The buildings were designed to withstand an accidental impact from the largest airplanes in service when they were built. Unfortunately, airplanes are now bigger, and they carry more fuel. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 12:20:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UKK8EN032544; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UKHh2d031483; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.01,235,1136178000"; d="scan'208"; a="774434593:sNHT16920824" Message-ID: <23383499.1138652241196.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:17:21 -0800 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > > > Zell, Chris wrote: > >Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, > >gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over >> night Toys. > I think you are wrong about that. Millions of people would love to > have an electric car with a 75-mile range if it costs about as much > as a comparable gasoline model. I would love to have one! I seldom > drive the Geo Metro more than 10 miles per day, and it does not go > over 55 mph (except maybe downhill). (My wife drives the Prius.) > Hundreds of millions of people may prefer gasoline vehicles, but a > vehicle with a 75-mile range would be a strong niche product with > more than enough people to support profitable production. A lot > stronger than motorcycles, I think. > > Clayton Christensen wrote an interesting chapter about this in the > book The Innovator's Dilemma. He said, among other things, that > parents with teenage children might want to buy underpowered limited > range electric cars precisely because they cannot go 120 mph or 100 > miles away from home. Most American families already have a gasoline > car, so this would be a second car for urban dwellers. As such, it is > a lot more practical, safer and faster than a bicycle, motorcycle or > taxicab. Millions of people live in cities after all. > > These cars have advantages besides eco-friendliness. As noted in the > article they cost less to run and to maintain. They are simple and > long-lasting. Traditional lead acid batteries may not last long but > they can be recycled. If GM had engineered and marketed their EV > properly they would be selling 100,000 a year by now. However, the > hybrid gasoline car makes pure EVs obsolete, and the plug-in hybrid > makes all other vehicles obsolete and not worth considering -- and > that includes ethanol fueled vehicles. The only reasonable > alternative to a gasoline plug-in hybrid is a diesel plug-in hybrid. > - Jed I agree with much of what Jed has to say on this topic. In the meantime I'm also crossing my fingers that MPI may be able to pull a magic rabbit or two out of the hat. But for now, based on what is selling in showrooms today, it seems to me that the biggest problem may have more to do with the fact that autos are often considered strong virility symbols, especially when testosterone is added into the equation. Therefore, the bigger and stronger my auto is... I think it would likely require take a very long and protracted reeducation program to make major portions of a testosterone-handicapped society rethink its absurd love affair with the gas guzzler. As much as they may hate the cost of rising gas, feeling neutered while puttering around in a wimpy EV is even more terrifying. If magnetic power modules don't pan out as quickly as we hope they might, another dilemma may turn out to be the fact that many one-car owners may be forced to purchase two cars - a short range and a long ranger. The latter, obviously being more of a gas hog. It's true for me that approximately 90% of my driving can be accomplished well within a 5 or 10 mile range. Another 5% in perhaps 30 - 40 miles, which is still well within the range of EVs on the market today. I suspect less than 5% of my driving requires getting on the interstate and traveling from Madison to Chicago or Milwaukee. It make me wonder if it might actually turn out to be more economical to simply RENT a long-ranger for those planned inter-city trips. Rent one for the weekend trip, or whatever. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 12:38:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UKc7WR009990; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:38:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UKc4Wg009945; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:38:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:38:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:37:55 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BE4D@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYl2rVFKwmSYKfWR66KUFrYk02/cQAAN0nA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jan 2006 20:37:56.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D52FB20:01C625DD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0UKbwx8009883 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:17 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: orionworks@charter.net Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > From: Jed Rothwell > > > Zell, Chris wrote: > >Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants > >wasteful, gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", > >recharge - over >> night Toys. Testosterone related vehicles? Whenever my wife sees some old guy in a hot sports car, she yells "Sorry about your penis!" GM should develop a diesel hybrid quickly. You would get the fuel economy of the diesel together with decent acceleration provided by batteries or ultracaps. Sounds win-win especially if we start producing biodiesel commercially. The Indonesians are seriously looking at Palm oil. If I was an oil company conspirator, I would help fund every whining, ceaselessly complaining enviro-group around ( but isn't that most of them?) Wind turbines kill birds, biodiesel starves the poor, new power plants ( and everything else) causes cancer and if that fails, just do the NIMBY mantra. It's amazing that the human race has come this far............. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 13:44:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0ULi8Eu012619; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:44:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0ULi7XY012605; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:44:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:44:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:41:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130113648.034a2b18@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> Why would there be no brake changes? Electric and hybrid cars have >>> regenerative braking but they also have ordinary brakes as well. > >> Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? > > No, I mean they use the electric motor as a generator, and this puts > a load on the wheels. The electric power it generates is stored in > the battery. This slows the car down, but to stop rapidly the car > also needs ordinary brakes. (I suppose it also needs them in case the > motor fails.) So the life of the break pads is greatly extended? > >> A frictionless breaking system based on electromagnetic forces >> would be possible but it would not be practical since it would consume >> electrical energy rather than generate it. > > As far as I know it would have to generate electricity. The energy > has to go somewhere. With ordinary brakes, all of the energy turns > into waste heat. I saw a dramatic demonstration of that the other day > driving behind a beat-up bread delivery truck down a steep mountain > in Virginia. By the time we reached the valley, stinking white smoke > was pouring out of the brakes. The driver did not even slow down. I > get a feeling he makes that delivery every day. One of these days he > is not going to stop at end of the road. > > - Jed > > Yes you are right. With strong enough magnets it might even be possible to do away with friction completely, while the separation of opposing magnetic poles could be controlled hydraulically. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 14:11:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UMBKYA025061; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:11:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UMBImD025024; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:11:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:11:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4DB363A7-EEC9-45B9-8FAC-E38E461B6F9C@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: The Coming Rebirth of the EV Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:08:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 30, 2006, at 9:32 AM, Mark Goldes wrote: > > > A few sheets on our website: www.magneticpowerinc.com may prove of > interest. > In you say: "2005 Over- unity is achieved in a rotary system. It opens a path to a future self-powered Demonstration Device. Outside validation is invited. The process of verification begins." Is any outside source doing a validation yet? Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 14:32:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UMWhCr002644; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:32:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UMWgba002635; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:32:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:32:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130172030.034bd7f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:32:29 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130113648.034a2b18@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >So the life of the break pads is greatly extended? That's my guess, as I said in the first message. Not only does it save money, it reduces pollution from dust and fragments of brake pads along highways and roads. Summarizing my feelings about a typical U.S. EV customer, I think most people in the U.S. would be willing to pay an extra $3,000 for a vehicle with a 600 mile range. Even rabid environmentalists like me appreciate the convenience of having the ICE when we need it, so we would pay extra for a plug-in hybrid rather than a pure EV. I would not know about Europe. Regarding diesel versus gasoline plug-in hybrids, the difference is not worth worrying about. For the average commuter with a plug-in hybrid, the annual cost of fuel would be trivial, even if gasoline hits $5 per gallon. The diesel would save you maybe $20 a year. With an ordinary hybrid, $5 gasoline it would start to hurt. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 14:50:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UMo1cx010012; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:50:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UMkc0R008519; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:46:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:46:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:43:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130150059.0351e148@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I doubt the Empire State Building would have collapsed if a jet liner crashed into it. If the twin towers were built like clipper ships, the Empire State building was built like a battle ship. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> We certainly have! The chief designer gave a presentation on it >> shortly after the collapse. IIRC, he explained exactly what had >> happened, how it came down, how the floors pancaked . . . >> >> As I recall, he was said to have finished by sobbing, "I wish they'd >> stayed up a little longer!" > > I think I remember seeing something like that on the Discovery > Channel. Several experts were interviewed. The guy I recall, who said > he tried to contact the authorities in New York, was a leading > British structural engineer. In other words, many different experts > independently predicted the collapse before it occurred, and many > others examined the steel and other components from the building to > confirm the sequence of events. There were no surprises and no major > unanswered questions. There is no need -- or room -- for the kinds of > doubts and conspiracy theories and urban myths that Jones is > peddling. To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton, Jones shows that when a man > stops believing in experiments, he will believe in anything. > > Several of the experts interviewed said they were amazed the > buildings stayed up as long as they did, and it was a credit to the > designers. They said they did not think any other building then > standing would have held up better. In light of these events, some > skyscrapers built after 9/11 have been reinforced more, and they > might survive better. > > The buildings were designed to withstand an accidental impact from > the largest airplanes in service when they were built. Unfortunately, > airplanes are now bigger, and they carry more fuel. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 14:58:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UMwcfe013776; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:58:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UMwaNa013747; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:58:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:58:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130175344.0355ebb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:58:25 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130150059.0351e148@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >I doubt the Empire State Building would have collapsed if a jet liner >crashed into it. The Pentagon was built around the same time as the Empire State Building, using similar materials and techniques. It shattered when the airplane smashed into it. I believe experts have said the Empire State Building would have fallen sooner and more catastrophically than the Twin Towers did. The Empire State Building was struck by an airplane in 1945, but it was a B-25 bomber, which was far smaller than today's commercial jetliners. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 15:32:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UNVqhb027567; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:31:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UNVowP027525; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:31:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:29:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: <8C7F3DE9146E77A-21EC-40C0@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If room temperature superconductors can be made they would also boost the performance of electric vehicles. If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as one of the promises of high temperature superconductors. Harry hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder > > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? > > <><><><><><><> > > It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 specs: > > http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h > tm > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/ckaju > > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 15:45:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0UNipxJ000617; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:44:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0UNio1c000607; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:44:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:44:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:42:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: S. Jones makes claims about 9/11 attack In-reply-to: <7.0.0.16.2.20060130175344.0355ebb0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I still doubt it. ;-) Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> I doubt the Empire State Building would have collapsed if a jet liner >> crashed into it. > > The Pentagon was built around the same time as the Empire State > Building, using similar materials and techniques. It shattered when > the airplane smashed into it. > > I believe experts have said the Empire State Building would have > fallen sooner and more catastrophically than the Twin Towers did. > > The Empire State Building was struck by an airplane in 1945, but it > was a B-25 bomber, which was far smaller than today's commercial jetliners. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 16:13:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V0DSu0012983; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:13:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V0DO9g012953; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:13:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:13:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:10:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...and here it is from May 11, 1987: http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101870511,00.html Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 > showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as one of the > promises of high temperature superconductors. > > Harry > > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Harry Veeder >> >> Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? >> >> <><><><><><><> >> >> It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 specs: >> >> http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h >> tm >> >> or >> >> http://tinyurl.com/ckaju From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 16:39:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V0OrOf017327; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:24:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V0OdXe017240; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:24:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:24:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room Temperature Superconductors and EVs Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:24:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 00:24:29.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2F86F50:01C625FC] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry, They can be made, but not yet in wire form. Thin films containing Ultraconductors 1 or 2 microns in diameter (1/50th the diameter of a human hair) can always carry 50 Amperes. The Ultraconductors run through the film in the thin direction, (i.e. normal to the film). Wire is 3 years and $18 million in front of us. Once available as wire, electron flywheels can begin to replace batteries. Ultraconducting Magnetic Energy Storage systems are expected to prove practical. Electric motors made with Ultraconducting wire can be much smaller and lighter, and may require no iron. Alll plastic motors may therefore prove practical. Superconducting motors require no iron. We suspect the same will be true of Ultraconductors. Mark >From: Harry Veeder >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:29:14 -0500 > >If room temperature superconductors can be made they would also >boost the performance of electric vehicles. >If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 >showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as one of the >promises of high temperature superconductors. > >Harry > >hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Harry Veeder > > > > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? > > > > <><><><><><><> > > > > It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 specs: > > > > >http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h > > tm > > > > or > > > > http://tinyurl.com/ckaju > > > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > > http://mail.netscape.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 16:47:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V0lA7T026569; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:47:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V0l6wZ026535; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ab01c625fd$5361a6a0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8B9E1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:28:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at broadbandsupport.net Resent-Message-ID: <1eMjtD.A.beG.JOr3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? >I don't see any need for any conspiracy to kill off electric cars at > all. The range is awful, they take time to recharge, the battery life > sucks and they are small > - especially when compared to the profitable SUV's that US manufacturers > produce. They suck. It's a chicken and egg thing. Sure, there isn't much "demand" for electric vehicles at the moment. But that is mainly because the auto companies have no interest in developing them or marketing them. People just don't know about EVs and their advantages, especially for people who don't drive very far. I'm sure with gasoline prices more than double from where they stood when the EV as introduced in 1997, a lot more people would be interested in EVs that cost only 1/4 to operate than petrol cars. The auto companies certainly aren't showing any interest in developing EVs. Sure there are range limitations and other issues. But how they going to improve the technology when no development effort is put into improving it? A natural step towards EVs would be plug-in hybrids. There is no reason why plug-in hybrids couldn't be used to provide short driving ranges on electricity and longer driving ranges on gasoline. As battery technology improves, such as longer life and faster charge lithium-ion batteries, plug-in hybrids can slowly by shifted more towards batteries and less towards petroleum. I think the disinterest is a natural business inclination by auto/oil companies not to invest in and promote technologies that would hurt them in the long run. They know the sucessful introduction of plug-in hybrids and EVs would hurt their industries terribly. A lot less cars would require maintence and spare parts and perhaps would last longer with electric engines. Oil would esstentially cease to be used for automotive purposes, and would become a niche commodity used for lubricants and petrochemicals. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 17:19:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V1IqP2009966; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:18:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V1IpoD009956; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:18:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:18:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:16:00 -0900 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0V1Imqd009938 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hesitate to post this, but if it is correct it is really amazing. As usual I am homing in on a correct calculation by a "method of successive errors". (Not a Newtonian method!) There is just a lot of manual calculation here, so this is expected. I've been over everything several times now, but will continue to check it. HERE'S THE AMAZING THING: the ambient gravimagnetic flux density is about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth’s gravimagnetic flux. density If correct, this should have profound implications for the Gravity Probe B experiment underway. It has other huge implications, but more to follow on that. Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field BACKGROUND Only an object which is solid can sustain torque free precession. Therefor the earth, and even the earth-moon system, can not sustain torque free precession. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) If we assume the precession of the earth is due to torque on the earth by the ambient gravimagnetic field, then, using the precession rate, we can compute the field strength of that ambient field. GYROS Let: a = angular acceleration (a vector) I = moment of inertia L = angular momentum (a vector) omega = angular velocity of precession (a vector) t = time Tp = period for one precession rotation Ts = period for one gyro spin rotation Q = torque (a vector) Q_earth = torque on earth from gravimagnetism w = angular velocity of gyro (a vector) So: Q = dL/dt = d(I w)/dt = I a Q = omega x L (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) PRECESSION TIME Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession) EARTH Precession Period: Tp = 25,800 years = 8.142x10^11 sec. Precession Angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes Mass: 5.985x10^24 kg Radius: 6378 m. Rotation period: Ts = 86164 sec. BASIC GRAVIMAGNETIC VARIABLES Electric Gravitational q m * i E g B K J J_g epsilon_0 epsilon_g_0 = 1.192602x10^9 kg s^2/m^3 mu_0 mu_g_0 = 9.329597x10^-27 m/kg c c_g = c Table 1: Gravity-electromagnetism Isomorphism Correspondence Table The mass of the earth is m_t_earth = 5.985x10^24 kg. The radius of earth is 6371 km. The moment of inertia for a sphere of radius r and mass M is (2/5) M r. For estimating purposes, considering the iron core out to 3500 m, we might assume, by weighed value, the mass is located in a ring of radius 1780 km, rotating once every day, i.e. at 2*Pi*1780 km/day = 129 m/s. The moment of inertia of the earth I is then I = m r^2 = (5.985x10^24 kg)(1780 km)^2, so: I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. EARTH’S GRAVICURRENT The gravicurrent is: i_g_earth = (5.985x10^24 i kg)/day i_g_earth = 6.927x10^19 i kg/s. Note that i in the units here is the imaginary number (-1)^(1/2). GRAVIMAGNETIC DIPOLE MOMENT OF EARTH The magnetic dipole moment is given by: mu = i_amps * A The gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_g of the earth's gravicurrent is thus the gravicurrent times the area of the current loop, or (6.927x10^19 i kg/s)(Pi*(1780 km)^2) gives: mu_g_earth = 6.90x10^32 i kg m^2/s TORQUE ON GRAVIMAGNET IN UNIFORM GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Torque on current loop in uniform magnetic field: A = area of current loop mu = i_amp A = magnetic moment Q = mu x B = torque The gravitational equivalent: A = area of gravicurrent loop i_g = gravicurrent mu_g = i_g A = gravimagnetic moment Q_g = mu_g X K = torque TORQUE FROM PRECESSION TIME Given Q the precession (for 90 deg. torque): Tp = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Q Ts) so solving for Q we have: Q = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Where, from above: Tp = 8.142x10^11 sec. Ts = 86164 sec. I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2. Q_90 = (4 Pi^2 I)/(Tp Ts) Q_90 = (4 Pi^2 (1.90x10^37 kg m^2))/ ((8.142x10^11 s) (86164 s)) Q_90 = 1.069x10^22 N m However, the above assumes a 90 deg. angle of precession. Knowing Q = I * (w x omega) and that the angle between w and omega is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes, we get Q_earth = Q_90 * sin(23.45 deg..) = Q_90 * 0.398 Q_earth = (1.069x10^22 N m) * 0.398 Q_earth = 4.26x10^21 N m AMBIENT GRAVIMAGNETIC FIELD Given: mu_g = mu_g_earth = 6.90x10^32 i kg m^2/s Q_g = Q_earth = 4.26x10^21 N m and knowing the angle between mu_g and gravimagnetic field K is the precession angular radius: 23 degrees 27 minutes: Q_g = mu_g X K we have scalar quantities: Q_g = mu_g * K * sin(23.45 deg..) so solving for K: K_ambient = Q_g /(mu_g * 0.398) K_ambient = (4.26x10^21 N m) /((6.90x10^32 i kg m^2/s) * 0.398) K_ambient = 1.551 x 10^-11 (i Hz) AMBIENT GRAVITATIONAL LORENTZ FORCE ON ORBITAL SPEED OBJECT Given EM Lorentz: F = q (v x B) We have the gK equivalent: F_g = m (v x K) Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = (1 kg i) ((8050 m/s) x (1.55 x 10^-11 (i Hz))) F_g = -1.248x10^-7 N = 1.272x10^-8 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field is: a_amb = 1.272x10^-8 g’s. Note that this is merely a net value. It has not been established the translational speed of the earth with respect to the ambient gravimagnetic field. This value is concealed by the fact the earth and moon system are laterally accelerated at the same rate. It is useful for calculating effects on circular motion, however. EARTH GRAVIMAGNETIC FLUX (K) IN CENTER OF EARTH The field intensity in the center a conducting ring radius R and current i_ring is B = mu_0 * i_ring/ (2 R) Using earth simulating ring radius 1780 km, and gravicurrent i_g_earth = 6.927x10^19 i kg/s We have the field K_g_earth = (9.33x10^-27 m/kg)(6.927x10^19 i kg/s)/ (2 * 1780 km) = 1.815x10^-13 (i Hz) which is only 2 orders of magnitude less than the ambient gravimagnetic field 1.551 x 10^-11 (i Hz)! GRAVIMAGNETIC INTENSITY (H_g) IN CENTER OF EARTH H_g_earth = K_g_earth / mu_g_0 H_g_earth = (1.815x10^-13 (i Hz))/(9.33x10^-27 m/kg) H_g_earth = 1.945x10^13 i kg/(m s) The gravimagnetic intensity at orbital altitudes at the equator is within an order of magnitude of this value, but reduced. EARTH GRAVITATIONAL LORENTZ FORCE ON ORBITAL SPEED OBJECT Given: m = 1 kg v = 8050 m/s (18,000 mi/hr) Then: F_g = m (v x K) F_g = (1 kg i) (8050 m/s) x (1.815x10^-13 (i Hz)) F_g = -1.461x10^-9 N = -1.49x10^-10 kgf So the lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through Earth’s gravimagnetic field is a_earth = 1.49x10^-10 g, or less depending on location. Note, however, the Earth’s gravimagnetic field rotates with the earth. It thus has no influence on geosynchronous satellites, for example. The Earth’s rotation speed must be subtracted from satellite velocities going west to east, but added to satellite velocities going east to west. This is somewhat irrelevant since the ambient gravimagnetic field dwarfs the Earth’s. The gravimagnetic force is not very observable. Only precise measurements or long term measurements can detect it. In the center of earth, by the right hand rule, the gravimagnetic field is directed at the North Pole, and the lines of force exit the earth’s surface in the Northern Hemisphere. However, the gravimagnetic field is oriented Southwards in space above the equator, and due to the majority of mass being in the core, it is oriented that direction even under the surface of the earth at the equator. Since mass has positive charge, but both the gravimagnetic field and gravimagnetic charge have a factor of i, the force has a negative sign. This means, at the equator, the direction of the Lorentz gravimagnetic force is away from the earth for an object traveling west-to-east, but toward the earth for an object traveling east-to-west. The orbital velocity, V = (G M/r)^0.5, is reduced when the apparent gravity field G M is reduced by the gravimagnetic Lorentz force. For the same altitude satellites (r fixed), the west-to-east satellite will move slower than the east-to-west satellite, because its apparent value of G M is reduced. This implies that for circular orbits, for the same speed satellites (V fixed), the earth orbit radius will be lower for a west-to-east satellite than for an east-to- west satellite. Space tethers oriented radially in space above the equator will experience seemingly inexplicable stretching tidal forces, while those oriented east-west will experience none. Directly above the poles things are different. Space tethers experience a tidal force when oriented horizontally and broadside to the direction of travel, but not when oriented radially. At the North Pole, the satellite is diverted to the left, as viewed feet down, contrary to the earth’s spin. At the South Pole it is diverted to the right, the opposite direction. Between the poles the orientations of forces gradually shift. SUMMARY OF COMPUTED VALUES Moment of inertia of earth I = 1.90x10^37 kg m^2 Gravicurrent of earth: i_g_earth = 6.927x10^19 i kg/s Gravimagnetic dipole moment mu_g_earth: mu_g_earth = 6.90x10^32 i kg m^2/s Torque on earth: Q_earth = 4.26x10^21 N m Ambient gravimagnetic field: K_ambient = 1.551 x 10^-11 (i Hz) K_ambient = 1.551 x 10^-11 (i N s/(kg m)) Gravimagnetic field (K=B_g) in Center of Earth K_g_earth = 1.815x10^-13 (i Hz) Gravimagnetic Field Intensity (H_g) in Center of Earth H_g_earth = 1.945x10^13 i kg/(m s) Lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the ambient gravimagnetic field in normal (perpendicular) direction: a_amb = 1.272x10^-8 g’s. Lateral acceleration due to moving at orbital speed through the polar ambient gravimagnetic field in normal (perpendicular) direction: a_polar = 1.49x10^-10 g (dwarfed by ambient gK acceleration) SUMMARY OF FINDINGS The surprising finding, if not due to calculation error, is that the ambient gravimagnetic field is about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth’s gravimagnetic field. If correct, this should have profound implications for the Gravity Probe B experiment underway. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 17:58:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V1w0bv025957; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:58:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V1vwjJ025936; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:57:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:57:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <020701c62609$9177da70$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BD01@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:56:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 2:02 PM Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > In summary, there are too many sinister explanations for things that are > easily explained by pedestrian economics. Alternative energy has never > gotten mainstream because businesses know that their plans could > collapse anytime the Saudis ( the swing producers) OPEN UP A VALVE > and pump $20 a barrel oil. > > ..............but that may soon change ( Thank God) That day is changing very quickly as we speak. Many oil analysts said oil was heading quickly back to $35 a barrel last year. They couldn't have been more wrong. The fact is oil demand is oustripping supply and the easiest way to see that reality is the fact that the price of a barrel of oil keeps rising: pedestrian economics. Supply/Demand. I agree that alternative energy has been hurt by cheap oil and the government's efforts to keep oil cheap and plentiful by protecting the oil trade militarily has helped skew the markets in oil's favor and hurt alternative energy. That is not pedestrian economics, that is called government meddling and social engineering. Well, now even the government can't keep the price of oil down where they and industry want's it, so people are going to start taking alternative more seriously. I'm sure many people who drive around town would love to have the option of doing so for 1/4 the cost in an electric vehicle (EV) if only that option were available. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 18:04:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V23xSv029145; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:04:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V23uAj029110; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:03:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:03:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <020c01c6260a$64e7f750$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BACA@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:02:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > > Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, > gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over > night > Toys. The lack of a Really Good Battery killed electric cars and no > conspiracy is necessary. > > Find a miracle battery - and , yes, YOU WILL KILL THE OIL COMPANIES. That miracle battery is on it's way finally! Lithium ion batteries have sufficient power densities to deliver 300 mile per charge and can actually recharge in 5 to 10 minutes. You know what that means? People can pull in and recharge their EVs on the go, just like filling up the old gas tank. That day is coming and it will kill oil when people realize how cheap electricity is in comparisson. When the EV-1 was introduced in 1997, wholesale gasoline was trading at 50 cents a gallon, retailing for around $1.00. Now, wholesale gasoline is trading at $1.80 a gallon, retailing for around $2.30. See: http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?vol=Y&jav=adv&grid=Y&divd=Y&org=stk&sym=HUH6&data=H&code=BSTK&evnt=adv Oh yes, economics are on the side of development of better EVs, if only there were auto companies willing to show the way. Japan probably hasn't led the way to EVs because electricity costs about 3 to 4 times as much as electricity in the U.S., around 28 cents per kWH in Japan. That gives the Japanese no incentive to develop an EV. A small indy American autocompany will probably bring the first commercially available generation of EVs to market, especially if gasoline keeps getting more expensive. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 18:31:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V2VMLx011411; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:31:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V2VFW0011340; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:31:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018501c6260d$74230400$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT Fact stranger than fiction? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:24:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another missive from Harry, who is hiding out in some S. American country... "The Lone Gunmen" is/was the name of a TV pilot episode, conceived and shot in 2000 and aired six months before the tragic events of Sept. 11, 2001 which involved the hijacking of a commercial airliner with the intent of crashing it into the World Trade Center. You can order the DVD online. Here is more detail: http://killtown.911review.org/lonegunmen.html Although the episode was centered on hi-tech instead of suicide, the eerie coincidence sent shockwaves through cast and roducers - mostly of "X-files extraction." so nobody accused them of being the terrorists link to the weak underbelly of American complacency. "I'll never forget that," says the producer "That was such a disturbing thing. It was very upsetting. As I say in the DVD, you write something like that, and you assume that if you can think of it, being a Hollywood writer, then somebody in the government has thought about it already" ... or had they? Speaking of 9/11 coincidence - in this case, a 30 year-old one: there is one Timothy McNiven. Tim is a 30-year U.S. Defense Department operative, who says he is still under contract with the government. Why he hasn't been fired yet is anybody's guess. Maybe they can keep him from going on the full-time lecture circuit this way. He has been openly preaching to anyone who will listen that his military unit in 1976 devised a mock terrorist attack of the Twin Towers almost exactly like what occurred on 9/11. He claims his unit was created the "perfect terrorist plan" for the times using commercial airliners as weapons and the then 3 year old Twin Towers as their target. It was the most expensive building ever built. They even suggested that the terrorist villains would use boxcutters. The study, commissioned to C-Battery 2/81st Field Artillery, U.S. Army, stationed in Strassburg, Germany in 1976, specifically devised the scenario of the Twin Towers being leveled by Middle Eastern terrorists. This was a CIA project with congressional approval, according to McNiven. I guess it should surprise no one to learn the identity of the head of CIA at that time, not to mention the Secretary of Defense... Curiously ... artist/photog Richard Avedon has a new offering of fine photos out just now, entitled: Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Washington D.C., May 7, 1976 but speaking of the Mayberry Machiavellians, here is a Trifecta that you probably don't know about. A single company provided top level security at the World Trade Center, Washington D.C.'s Dulles International Airport, and to both United Airlines and American Airlines between 1995 and 2001. Hmm... and this private company whose records are not open to full public disclosure, was backed by another private Kuwaiti-American investment firm, and with hidden records three layers deep in the Mid-East, but a clever investigative journalist has learned the name of the main kingpin for its US activities, including all of this (so-called) security. More like insecurity if you are related to any of the victims. Marvin P. Bush, younger brother of President George W. Bush, was director and principal US liaison in the company for seven years from 1993 to 2000, when most of the work on the big projects was done. But none of the White House responses to 9/11 have publicly disclosed the company's part in providing security to any of the named facilities. Marvin wisely got out of the arrangement a few months before 9/11. Probably just a lucky coincidence for him Public records indicate that the firm, formerly named Securacom, had Bush on its board of directors but that is all they are required to divulge. The firm, which is now named Stratesec, Inc., is located in Sterling, Va., a D.C. suburb, and emphasizes federal clients. Marvin Bush is no longer on the board and refuses to be interviewed. The American Stock Exchange delisted Stratesec's stock in October 2002. Believe it or not, this foreign financed security firm - Securacom also had a exclusive contract to provide security at the top secret Los Alamos National Laboratories ! one might opine that this lab is a bit notorious for its numerous security breaches but who woulda guessed a foreign-backed security firm could have gotten that contract? According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down." Yet instead of being investigated, the company and companies involved with it have benefited from legislation pushed by the White House and rubber-stamped by Congress. Stratesec, its backer KuwAm, and their corporate officers stand to benefit from limitations on liability and national-security protections from investigation provided in bills since 9/11. Un-frigging-believable... Signed, Harry Tuttle - Ductwork engineer and aspiring investigative journalist. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 19:06:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V35xTB025800; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:06:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V35voE025764; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:05:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:05:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <24311978.1138676448697.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:00:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello writes: >Japan probably hasn't >led the way to EVs because electricity costs about 3 to 4 times as much as >electricity in the U.S., around 28 cents per kWH in Japan. Yes, but gasoline costs $5 per gallon, so it works out roughly the same. Japanese companies have announced electric cars will be on the market this year and next. It was featured in the national news in December. The cars are small but not tiny, like some European ones. They are the size of many urban Japanese cars. I do not recall the range but it sounded reasonable; 100 km or more. The Japanese and Chinese governments see the writing on the wall. They understand that oil supplies have peaked, and they must take action. They are not like the U.S. government, with its head in the sand. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 19:25:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V3HYcE032657; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:17:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V3HU2s032601; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:17:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:17:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:07:18 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F42A94817CFF-188-1083@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.132 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <88DUUC.A.P9H.Jbt3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner HERE'S THE AMAZING THING: the ambient gravimagnetic flux density is about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth?s gravimagnetic flux. density <><><><><> Dr. Ning Li said the same. However, I think it was much more than 2 orders. I'lll send you her unpublished paper. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 19:57:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V3unNN022079; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:56:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V3ukAX022053; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024501c6261a$2737eea0$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Are Big Oil Conspiracies Really Off-Base? Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:55:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0242_01C625F0.3E001790" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0242_01C625F0.3E001790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ExxonMobil just reported record quarterly profits, over $10 Billion just = this quarter. Has there ever been a business in the history of mankind = that has even come close to the profits that the oil business has = enjoyed, especially in recent years? Does anyone really need a further = explanation for why the U.S. government lavishes the oil industry with = approximately=20 $100 Billion in military protection each year and gives energy = conservation and alternative energy so little attention and funding? = Oil is king of the economic world. The U.S. government knows the deal with peak oil, probably better than = anyone. It is the main reason we are in Iraq at the moment. Oil plays = the central role of our foreign policy, especially since Communism fell. = Remember how Dick Chenney said in 2001 that energy efficiency did not = matter? I just saw him last week explaining on network television that = the=20 reason our economy is not in recession due to the current high oil = prices is because we use oil twice as efficiently as we did in 1980 when = we had a serious economic recession due to oil. Talk about speaking out = of both sides of your mouth. Slick Dick! For those out there who belittle big oil conspiracy theories as = poppycock, I suggest you investigate the diamond trade. Diamonds would = be essentially worthless if they were allowed to trade freely. I was = surprised to learn this myself a few years ago. Yes, there is actually = an international cartel that tightly controls the diamond supply to = ensure that diamonds remain a=20 valuable commodity. A company called DeBeers actually has warehouses = full of diamonds in Europe, keeping millions of stones off the market, = to ensure they remain scarce and valuable. 60 Minutes did a story on = this fact a few years ago. Not only do they keep diamonds embargoed, = they also are heavily involved in the mining trade and control the = production side as well. Well, if such far flung efforts have been carried out successfully for = decades to ensure diamonds remain valuable, why is it so hard to believe = that there are also powerful forces that manipulate energy markets. = Energy is the most valuable commodity known to man at the moment, and = oil is the prime energy commodity. Their is ample reason to manipulate = the price of=20 oil. I believe we see this manipulation every year as the U.S. = government routinely spends $100 Billion or more to ensure the free flow = of oil, also ensuring huge profits for the ExxonMobils of the world, and = having the side-effect of retarding alternative energy competitiors who = have to compete against a subsidized commodity like oil. ------=_NextPart_000_0242_01C625F0.3E001790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ExxonMobil just=20 reported record quarterly profits, over $10 Billion just this = quarter.  Has=20 there ever been a business in the history of mankind that has even come = close to=20 the profits that the oil business has enjoyed, especially in recent = years? =20 Does anyone really need a further explanation for why the U.S. = government=20 lavishes the oil industry with approximately
$100 Billion in = military=20 protection each year and gives energy conservation and alternative = energy so=20 little attention and funding?  Oil is king of the economic=20 world.

The U.S. government knows the deal with peak oil, probably = better=20 than anyone.  It is the main reason we are in Iraq at the=20 moment.  Oil plays the central role of our foreign policy, = especially=20 since Communism fell.  Remember how Dick Chenney said in 2001 that = energy=20 efficiency did not matter?  I just saw him last week = explaining on=20 network television that the
reason our economy is not in recession = due to=20 the current high oil prices is because we use oil twice as = efficiently as=20 we did in 1980 when we had a serious economic recession due to = oil.  Talk=20 about speaking out of both sides of your mouth.  Slick = Dick!

For=20 those out there who belittle big oil conspiracy theories as poppycock, I = suggest=20 you investigate the diamond trade.  Diamonds would be essentially = worthless=20 if they were allowed to trade freely.  I was surprised to learn = this myself=20 a few years ago.  Yes, there is actually an international cartel = that=20 tightly controls the diamond supply to ensure that diamonds remain a=20
valuable commodity.  A company called DeBeers actually has = warehouses=20 full of diamonds in Europe, keeping millions of stones off the market, = to ensure=20 they remain scarce and valuable.  60 Minutes did a story on this = fact a few=20 years ago.  Not only do they keep diamonds embargoed, they also are = heavily=20 involved in the mining trade and control the production side as=20 well.

Well, if such far flung efforts have been carried out = successfully=20 for decades to ensure diamonds remain valuable, why is it so hard = to=20 believe that there are also powerful forces that manipulate energy=20 markets.  Energy is the most valuable commodity known to man at the = moment,=20 and oil is the prime energy commodity.  Their is ample reason to = manipulate=20 the price of
oil.  I believe we see this manipulation every = year as the=20 U.S. government routinely spends $100 Billion or more to ensure the free = flow of=20 oil, also ensuring huge profits for the ExxonMobils of the world, and = having the=20 side-effect of retarding alternative energy competitiors who have to = compete=20 against a subsidized commodity like=20 oil.

------=_NextPart_000_0242_01C625F0.3E001790-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 20:13:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V4DGc8029521; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:13:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V4DEqY029491; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:13:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.19] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <43DEDE6D.9010901@comcast.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightweight Ultraconducting Energy Storage Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:13:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 04:13:11.0644 (UTC) FILETIME=[A63AA9C0:01C6261C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Los Alamos National Laboratory patented a lightweight containment system using Kevlar. While the Patent was in force, our firm had rights for use with our polymers. Now that their Patent has expired we still expect to use that lightweight system of containment for UMES electron flywheels. Carbon fiber may prove to be an even better alternative and we are watching wire development progress with that extremely light material many times stronger than steel. Mark >From: Bob Fickle >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Room Temperature Superconductors and EVs >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:50:05 -0600 > >Much as I'd like to have some ultraconductor wire to play with, I'm not >convinced that Ultrqaconducting Magnetic Energy Storage will replace >batteries. Magnetic fields create a pressure equal to the energy density- >and therefore require a strong (read "heavy" and "expensive") mechanical >container. > >Mark Goldes wrote: > >>Harry, >> >>They can be made, but not yet in wire form. >> >>Thin films containing Ultraconductors 1 or 2 microns in diameter (1/50th >>the diameter of a human hair) can always carry 50 Amperes. The >>Ultraconductors run through the film in the thin direction, (i.e. normal >>to the film). >> >>Wire is 3 years and $18 million in front of us. >> >>Once available as wire, electron flywheels can begin to replace batteries. >> Ultraconducting Magnetic Energy Storage systems are expected to prove >>practical. >> >>Electric motors made with Ultraconducting wire can be much smaller and >>lighter, and may require no iron. Alll plastic motors may therefore prove >>practical. Superconducting motors require no iron. We suspect the same >>will be true of Ultraconductors. >> >>Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: Harry Veeder >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? >>>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:29:14 -0500 >>> >>>If room temperature superconductors can be made they would also >>>boost the performance of electric vehicles. >>>If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 >>>showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as one of >>>the >>>promises of high temperature superconductors. >>> >>>Harry >>> >>>hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Harry Veeder >>> > >>> > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? >>> > >>> > <><><><><><><> >>> > >>> > It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 >>>specs: >>> > >>> > >>>http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h >>> >>> > tm >>> > >>> > or >>> > >>> > http://tinyurl.com/ckaju >>> > >>> > >>> > ___________________________________________________ >>> > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>> > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>> > http://mail.netscape.com >>> > >>> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 20:22:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V4MjkX001599; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:22:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V4Mh1o001568; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:22:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:22:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:19:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0V4MGbi001408 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wonder if there is a connection between Gravimagnetism and dowsing and ley lines... Harry Horace Heffner wrote: > > HERE'S THE AMAZING THING: the ambient gravimagnetic flux density is > about 2 orders of magnitude larger than the Earth¹s gravimagnetic > flux. density If correct, this should have profound implications for > the Gravity Probe B experiment underway. It has other huge > implications, but more to follow on that. > > > Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 20:33:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V4XdwO006077; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:33:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V4XbOQ006057; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:33:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:31:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8BE4D@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <855srC.A.leB.hiu3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:17 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: orionworks@charter.net > Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > >> From: Jed Rothwell >> >>> Zell, Chris wrote: > >>> Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants >>> wasteful, gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", >>> recharge - over >>> night Toys. > > Testosterone related vehicles? Whenever my wife sees some old guy in a > hot sports car, she yells "Sorry about your penis!" ...but do real men drive dinky electric cars? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 30 21:48:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0V5mVVY008091; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:48:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0V5mTAK008073; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:48:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:48:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:48:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Horace Heffner" > This is an indication the door was opened by the blast prior to > the glass shards hitting it. The shards came through with > enough energy to cause widespread injuries. This is only > consistent with the primary energy of the blast being in the > 1L-6 incubator, not the flask. > I think Mizuno had it right when he said: "The effluent hydrogen > and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. There 2 ~ 3 cc of > hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only > minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. It is possible > that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas in > the headspace." Even so - you neglect the major point Mizuno is making about the rise in water temperature - captured by his temp. probe and data logging. If we accept this as accurate: There was 700 grams of H2O which was heated for only ten seconds. Mizuno was not using much power, but the heating rate of 700 grams of water in figure on page 31 shows a rise in water temperature of 60 C in about 10 seconds. This would constitute an energy input of 176,400 Joules! Page 14 describes the input parameters - 15 volts and 1.5 Amps. This is a power input of 22.5 watts for 10 seconds but the power apparently accepted by the water was (DeltaT) (Mass of water) (1 calorie/gram)(4.2Joules/calorie) /10seconds = 60(700grams) (4.2)/10 = 17,640 watts. That is a gain of 780 for power output versus power input. Elsewhere he calculates the gain in that same range. This explosion was NOT due to "just" a few cc of hydrogen in the headspace, nor even to that combined with much more outside the headspeace. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 02:21:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VALdQd022755; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:21:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VALb1p022736; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:21:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:21:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:18:44 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <8DE9eD.A.MjF.woz3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 30, 2006, at 8:48 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > From: "Horace Heffner" > >> This is an indication the door was opened by the blast prior to >> the glass shards hitting it. The shards came through with enough >> energy to cause widespread injuries. This is only consistent with >> the primary energy of the blast being in the 1L-6 incubator, not >> the flask. > >> I think Mizuno had it right when he said: "The effluent hydrogen >> and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. There 2 ~ 3 cc of >> hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only >> minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. It is possible >> that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas in the >> headspace." > > Even so - you neglect the major point Mizuno is making Not at all. In fact in the last post I said: "The sudden heat output may be an anomaly, but the explosion does not appear to be one." > about the rise in water temperature - captured by his temp. probe > and data logging. If we accept this as accurate: > > There was 700 grams of H2O which was heated for only ten seconds. > Mizuno was not using much power, but the heating rate of 700 grams > of water in figure on page 31 shows a rise in water temperature of > 60 C in about 10 seconds. This would constitute an energy input of > 176,400 Joules! > > Page 14 describes the input parameters - 15 volts and 1.5 Amps. > This is a power input of 22.5 watts for 10 seconds but the power > apparently accepted by the water was (DeltaT) (Mass of water) (1 > calorie/gram)(4.2Joules/calorie) /10seconds = 60(700grams) (4.2)/10 > = 17,640 watts. > > That is a gain of 780 for power output versus power input. > Elsewhere he calculates the gain in that same range. > > This explosion was NOT due to "just" a few cc of hydrogen in the > headspace, Of course not, but that few cc, ignited, is plenty to pop the rubber top and ignite the large volume in the 1L-6 incubator. Or, even just a sudden boil off is probably enough to expose the electrodes and cause an ignition. > nor even to that combined with much more outside the headspeace. The Chart in Fig. 6 in: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomalouse.pdf shows a run time of over 10,000 seconds before the explosion. That's almost 3 hours. The beaker cap used in the explosion was black and both thin and thinly tapered compared to the white cap shown in the "before" photos. It is possible there was a leak in the cap or other leak in the system, or that hydrogen had accumulated in the 1L-6 incubator during prior runs. I vaguely recall talk about the recombiner being removed. Maybe the "plumbing" wasn't put back just right and there was a leak into the incubator. The plastic tubing in the post explosion photo http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG looks to be in too good a condition to have been exposed to so much energy in so little volume. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 02:28:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VARo05025305; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:27:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VARhCg025247; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:27:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:27:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <845D9A09-7A89-4CD3-B3B7-8CE5832C72AD@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Ambient Gravimagnetic Field and the Earth Field Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:24:50 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 30, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > I wonder if there is a connection between Gravimagnetism and > dowsing and ley > lines... I'm clueless on that one. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 06:39:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VEdjYm020762; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:39:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VEdgI9020725; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:39:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:39:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:39:34 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8C17D@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYmCqloHU2Zm3YbTJy7Ut3zA1JUQwAaSNBg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 14:39:35.0504 (UTC) FILETIME=[27F49500:01C62674] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0VEdZoC020670 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc@patmedia.net] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > > Cold weather makes electric cars even worse. The public wants wasteful, > gas sucking monster SUV's , not dinky, "75 mile range", recharge - over > night > Toys. The lack of a Really Good Battery killed electric cars and no > conspiracy is necessary. > > Find a miracle battery - and , yes, YOU WILL KILL THE OIL COMPANIES. That miracle battery is on it's way finally! If so, Hallelujah! If it won't work in Japan, they could still export them for here...... But I'm not sure about cycle life and battery price. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 06:55:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VEsh1C028004; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:54:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VEsgOd027990; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:54:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:54:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601311454.k0VEse7W002487@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:54:40 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_9ddf43c6fd807383da54f0c791b4471f" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_9ddf43c6fd807383da54f0c791b4471f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Coviello ... > That miracle battery is on it's way finally! Lithium ion > batteries have sufficient power densities to deliver 300 > mile per charge and can actually recharge in 5 to 10 minutes. > You know what that means? People can pull in and recharge > their EVs on the go, just like filling up the old gas tank. > That day is coming and it will kill oil when people realize > how cheap electricity is in comparisson. While I also look forward to the day when EV or equivalent non-petroleum based vehicles dominate our hi-ways I seem to recall that pushing that much juice through electrical cable to recharge car batteries may turn out to be hazardous to one's health! I don't know how much actual concentrated amperage would be involved to charge a battery within 5 - 10 minutes, but I'm sure it's substantial. I'm sure there are a few EEs in this group who are more than capable of doing the math. I seem to recall Mike Carrell once warning the readership that there is the danger of "vaporizing" the battery or nearby components. I can believe this. I purchased one of those 15 minute rechargers at a local battery store last year. It's a marvel. Works as advertised. Of course, you have to buy THEIR special brand of batteries in order to take advantage of the quick charge. Fortunately the device will recharge regular rechargeable batteries as well, but within a more traditional length of time: 4 - 6 hours. When the recharger is performing a 15 minute charge a very noisy fan turns on to keep the electronic components from melting down. Almost sounds like a mini-turbine turning on at full blast. Without a doubt, it's the loudest recharger I've ever heard. I'm surprised I don't smell ozone pouring out of the thing. And now, they can do this in less than 5 minutes? That means the amperage would have to be three times the volume than my already fast 15 minute charger. The device would be screaming! Still, I love watching the contraption. Not sure I would say the same thing if I was attempting to recharge my EV with equivalent technology. You want ME to to connect the cable to that anode??? All the more reason to hope that Mark Goldes' room temperature superconductive cable may make it to market within the near future. Otherwise, wear rubber boots. ...and stop sweating. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_9ddf43c6fd807383da54f0c791b4471f Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: John Coviello

...

> That miracle battery is on it's way finally! Lithium ion
> batteries have sufficient power densities to deliver 300
> mile per charge and can actually recharge in 5 to 10 minutes.
> You know what that means? People can pull in and recharge
> their EVs on the go, just like filling up the old gas tank.
> That day is coming and it will kill oil when people realize
> how cheap electricity is in comparisson.

While I also look forward to the day when EV or equivalent non-petroleum ba= sed vehicles dominate our hi-ways I seem to recall that pushing that much j= uice through electrical cable to recharge car batteries may turn out to be = hazardous to one's health! I don't know how much actual concentrated ampera= ge would be involved to charge a battery within 5 - 10 minutes, but I'm sur= e it's substantial. I'm sure there are a few EEs in this group who are more= than capable of doing the math. I seem to recall Mike Carrell once warning= the readership that there is the danger of "vaporizing" the battery or nea= rby components.

I can believe this. I purchased one of those 15 minute rechargers at a loca= l battery store last year. It's a marvel. Works as advertised. Of course, y= ou have to buy THEIR special brand of batteries in order to take advantage = of the quick charge. Fortunately the device will recharge regular rechargea= ble batteries as well, but within a more traditional length of time: 4 - 6 = hours. When the recharger is performing a 15 minute charge a very noisy fan= turns on to keep the electronic components from melting down. Almost sound= s like a mini-turbine turning on at full blast. Without a doubt, it's the l= oudest recharger I've ever heard. I'm surprised I don't smell ozone pouring= out of the thing. And now, they can do this in less than 5 minutes? That m= eans the amperage would have to be three times the volume than my already f= ast 15 minute charger. The device would be screaming!

Still, I love watching the contraption. Not sure I would say the same thing= if I was attempting to recharge my EV with equivalent technology. You want= ME to to connect the cable to that anode??? All the more reason to hope th= at Mark Goldes' room temperature superconductive cable may make it to marke= t within the near future.

Otherwise, wear rubber boots. ...and stop sweating.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_9ddf43c6fd807383da54f0c791b4471f-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 07:10:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VFA44w004941; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:10:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VF0BIc031324; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:59:57 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8C1B2@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYl/+/xSEPFOlakSTSXfGRQkIWlJgAdY2cQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 14:59:58.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[00A0F4F0:01C62677] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0VF08Lk031113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc@patmedia.net] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? ---- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? >I don't see any need for any conspiracy to kill off electric cars at > all. The range is awful, they take time to recharge, the battery life > sucks and they are small > - especially when compared to the profitable SUV's that US manufacturers > produce. They suck. It's a chicken and egg thing. I spent many an hour reading about battery research in libraries at Cornell. There just wasn't anything worthwhile out there - and lithum ion is a maybe. The Don Quixote Car Company that built this stuff would also need a charging station infrastructure, trained repairmen, a parts dept, And ---- possibly have to deal with liability issues from firemen and shade tree mechanics ( or their widows) who got zapped by the power pack. That's a pretty tall order from a company like GM or Ford, losing billions a quarter and draining market share, year after year. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 07:35:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VFZBN1016943; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:35:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VFZ9Cg016914; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:35:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:35:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner" >> There was 700 grams of H2O which was heated for only ten >> seconds. Mizuno was not using much power, but the heating rate >> of 700 grams of water in figure on page 31 shows a rise in >> water temperature of 60 C in about 10 seconds. This would >> constitute an energy input of 176,400 Joules! >> >> Page 14 describes the input parameters - 15 volts and 1.5 Amps. >> This is a power input of 22.5 watts for 10 seconds but the >> power apparently accepted by the water was (DeltaT) (Mass of >> water) (1 calorie/gram)(4.2Joules/calorie) /10seconds = >> 60(700grams) (4.2)/10 = 17,640 watts. >> >> That is a gain of 780 for power output versus power input. >> Elsewhere he calculates the gain in that same range. >> >> This explosion was NOT due to "just" a few cc of hydrogen in >> the headspace, > > Of course not, but that few cc, ignited, is plenty to pop the > rubber top and ignite the large volume in the 1L-6 incubator. > Or, even just a sudden boil off is probably enough to expose > the electrodes and cause an ignition. The previous run provides the "active" setting but it cannot be presummed that there was significant residual hydrogen in the hood - such as if the exhaust fan totally failed - and even if there was this is totaly unnecssary and moreover inconsistent with this kind of sudden power increase in the cell. If we are to accept everything Mizuno says, the explosion actually could NOT have been casued by hydrogen at all ! That's right, a hydrogen explosion it totally inconsistent with this situation - as it would have casued an explosion long before the 10 seconds, and the water in the cell COULD NOT have attained that temperature. At only 3-4 seconds the surface temperature of the cathode, down to a micron or so was already near its melting point. If hydrogen had been there, it would have exploded then - ending the episode and not allowing further heat-up of the water. The Stephan-Boltzmann law defines the maximum power per unit area that a perfect emitter of radiation (blackbody) can sustain. The total cathode area exposed to the electrolyte is a length of 1.5 cm. The cathode diameter is 0.1 cm. The maximum area exposed to the electrolyte is 0.47cm2. The power is 17,640 watts, so the power per unit area is 374,000 watts/cm2. (In reality, only about 10% of this cathode surface area is heated, so these calculations below (from Brian Ahern) are truly conservative. Power/area = sigma T ^ 4 Where s = sigma = 5.7 x 10-8 W/m^2/degreeK = 5.7 x 10^-12 W/cm2/degreeK T^4 = 374,000/5.7 x 10^-12 = 6.6 x 10^+16 T = ~ 16,0000K IOW if we are to believe Mizuno the cause of the explsoion was rapid heating and sublimation of the surface of the cathode (a few mils of tungsten blown off, resulting in the pitted appearance) probably caused by nuclear reactions - together with the flash steam that this cathode surface-boil-off would have created. A hydrogen explosion, or residual hydrogen left over from the previous run would have ended this episode long before the 10 seconds - so that possibility is eliminated. Given this, personally I am suspicious of Mizuno figures or at least wishing that an isoptic analysis of the metal surface had been made, since that is the only way to prove a real nuclear reaction. BTW - the most active part of the surface area could not have been tested as it must have alreadu boiled off. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 07:38:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VFcFBp018224; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:38:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VFcCW5018183; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:38:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:38:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131102253.034e9af0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:30:32 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8C1B2@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8C1B2@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >I spent many an hour reading about battery research in libraries at >Cornell. There just wasn't anything worthwhile out there - and lithum ion >is a maybe. . . . >The Don Quixote Car Company that built this stuff would also need a >charging station infrastructure, trained repairmen, a parts dept, >And ---- possibly have to deal with liability issues from firemen >and shade tree mechanics . . . Valid points, all. These are other reasons why the plug-in hybrid is the ideal compromise for present-day circumstances. It can be recharged slowly, overnight, with household current. If you forget to recharge, or if you do not have time to recharge before setting out on another trip, it does not matter. You use of gasoline instead of electricity. You pay more for transportation that day. Suppose gasoline cost $5 dollars per gallon, but you only use it exclusively 10 or 20 days per year (on days when you forget to recharge or you travel long distances). The cost would not be a burden. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 08:56:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VGtuUM001783; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:55:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VGts9L001763; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:55:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:55:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:55:40 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50B008CDD@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYmfHhlUzqcI9wESNePnjnGmIh3LgACgmQQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 16:55:41.0994 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B9010A0:01C62687] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0VGtl1u001610 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:31 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Zell, Chris wrote: >I spent many an hour reading about battery research in libraries at >Cornell. There just wasn't anything worthwhile out there - and >lithum ion is a maybe. . . . >The Don Quixote Car Company that built this stuff would also need a >charging station infrastructure, trained repairmen, a parts dept, And >---- possibly have to deal with liability issues from firemen and shade >tree mechanics . . . Valid points, all. These are other reasons why the plug-in hybrid is the ideal compromise for present-day circumstances. I agree. While we all would like to see a huge jump in tech evolution, we may have to settle for baby steps, for now. The most wonderful aspect of this is the full development of an electric car by major companies, under the title "hybrid". Get the Miracle Battery invented ....... And POOF! The whole world changes for the better. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 08:57:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VGvh1G002696; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:57:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VGvdSs002643; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:57:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:57:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DF9313.10408@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:40:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? References: <200601311454.k0VEse7W002487@mail1.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: <200601311454.k0VEse7W002487@mail1.mx.voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's an interesting question: Is it possible to design a ground-fault interrupter which can carry -- and safely break -- a 1000 amp current going into a 1000 volt load? OrionWorks wrote: > From: John Coviello > > ... > > > That miracle battery is on it's way finally! Lithium ion > > batteries have sufficient power densities to deliver 300 > > mile per charge and can actually recharge in 5 to 10 minutes. > > You know what that means? People can pull in and recharge > > their EVs on the go, just like filling up the old gas tank. > > That day is coming and it will kill oil when people realize > > how cheap electricity is in comparisson. > > While I also look forward to the day when EV or equivalent non-petroleum > based vehicles dominate our hi-ways I seem to recall that pushing that > much juice through electrical cable to recharge car batteries may turn > out to be hazardous to one's health! I don't know how much actual > concentrated amperage would be involved to charge a battery within 5 - > 10 minutes, but I'm sure it's substantial. I'm sure there are a few EEs > in this group who are more than capable of doing the math. I seem to > recall Mike Carrell once warning the readership that there is the danger > of "vaporizing" the battery or nearby components. I'm no EE but maybe we can estimate it anyway. Say that 300 mile range involves an average output of 10 HP. (That's probably within a factor of 2 of the real number, which I seem to recall is ~ 15 to 20 HP for current cars without regenerative braking; the real range for an efficient electric car is probably somewhere between 5 HP and 20 HP.) 300 miles at 40 MPH = 7.5 hours 10 HP ~ 8 kW => 60 kW hours for 7.5 hours 5 minutes is about 0.1 hours. To push 60 kWh into the batteries in 0.1 hour, we need to run about 600 kW into the batteries. That's as much as a small generating station produces -- you don't pull that out of an ordinary outlet. (I suppose the charging station must be using batteries or supercaps to store the charge, and they fill them up during the night.) Now, if the battery pack puts out 400 volts (wild guess), then 600 kW would go in at a current of 1,500 amps. That's a lot of current, but it's not an impossible amount. Just the same it probably indicates that the battery pack should be more like a kilovolt than 400 volts; that would bring the current down to a far more manageable 600 amps. At that point, we're looking at a number which is in the same ballpark as the starting current for cars today -- and it's most likely _lower_ than the starting current for the old 6 volt cars from the days of my youth. It's clearly do-able, at least from a current standpoint. But, in any case, you'll want to use very hefty cables, maybe some silver, and you'll want to be very, very careful of the connector design, to avoid having the plug melt or burn. And, if the wires are long enough to have noticeable inductance, you don't want to be standing next to them if one of them breaks (or the plug pops out). > I can believe this. I purchased one of those 15 minute rechargers at a > local battery store last year. It's a marvel. Works as advertised. Of > course, you have to buy THEIR special brand of batteries in order to > take advantage of the quick charge. Fortunately the device will recharge > regular rechargeable batteries as well, but within a more traditional > length of time: 4 - 6 hours. When the recharger is performing a 15 > minute charge a very noisy fan turns on to keep the electronic > components from melting down. Almost sounds like a mini-turbine turning > on at full blast. Without a doubt, it's the loudest recharger I've ever > heard. I'm surprised I don't smell ozone pouring out of the thing. And > now, they can do this in less than 5 minutes? That means the amperage > would have to be three times the volume than my already fast 15 minute > charger. The device would be screaming! Maybe, maybe not. Just because it handles more current doesn't mean the electronics must dump more heat. Classic example is a linear power supply versus a switching power supply. A well-regulated high-current high-voltage linear supply typically needs substantial heat sinks; a well-regulated high-current high-voltage switching supply typically doesn't. The difference is that the linear supply runs the electricity through what is, essentialy, a variable resistor in order to drop the voltage to the regulated value. The resistor (actually a power transistor) basically just throws away a fraction of the output power equal to the difference between the bulk supply voltage and the regulated voltage, divided by the bulk voltage. The switcher, on the other hand, uses a switching transistor which is always either fully on or fully off, and in principle, it doesn't need to throw away any of the input power as heat. So, the point is just that a better/fancier/more-expensive design could potentially produce more current to the battery without producing more heat in the charger. > > Still, I love watching the contraption. Not sure I would say the same > thing if I was attempting to recharge my EV with equivalent technology. > You want ME to to connect the cable to that anode??? All the more reason > to hope that Mark Goldes' room temperature superconductive cable may > make it to market within the near future. You still have the problem of the connector, which may be the biggest issue to start with -- hard to make it low enough resistance to keep it from burning up. And you have the problem of broken wires in spades, if his ultraconductors are anything like other HT superconductors: they're a lot more fragile than a stranded copper or silver cable, which you couldn't break without using an axe on it. > > Otherwise, wear rubber boots. ...and stop sweating. That's going to be an issue no matter what's inside the cable. Any time you've got hundreds of volts at essentially unlimited potential current, you've got a major hazard. One nice thing about DC (assuming the charger is DC!) is that it doesn't tend to permanently stop your heart, short of cooking it. Your skin resistance starts out pretty high. However, once you punch through the skin and run some current through a person, that resistance drops a lot; I don't know how far, unfortunately. At 1 kOhm (wild guess), and 1 kV, a person would be absorbing 1 kW, which is about what's inside a microwave oven. You'd most likely get severe burns on your hands and feet but wouldn't be instantly killed. Electric chairs, in contrast, are specially designed to cause unconsciousness, stop the heart, and then dump an incredible amount of energy into the body just to be sure the effect is permanent, by using carefully placed electrodes and a sequence of at least two different voltages. > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 09:02:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VH1xRA005109; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:02:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VH1vx7005085; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:01:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:01:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:01:52 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50B008CEB@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Who Killed the EV? Thread-Index: AcYmh4Q4KcXPm+O1REW8fNzmg5jwawAAEInQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2006 17:01:52.0715 (UTC) FILETIME=[088799B0:01C62688] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k0VH1ttN005050 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Here's an interesting question: Is it possible to design a ground-fault interrupter which can carry -- and safely break -- a 1000 amp current going into a 1000 volt load? Peaks of a megawatt in my car? Defrosting the windows should be pretty easy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 09:05:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VH4sKM007063; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:04:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VH4qdB007037; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:04:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:04:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2710D55E-C7FD-4103-A71A-41DDBC30AA82@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:01:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 31, 2006, at 6:35 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > > The previous run provides the "active" setting but it cannot be > presummed that there was significant residual hydrogen in the hood Neither can it be assumed that there was no hydrogen in the incubator. The blast effects do not indicate the energy came from within the cell. > - such as if the exhaust fan totally failed - and even if there was > this is totaly unnecssary and moreover inconsistent with this kind > of sudden power increase in the cell. A high volume low energy density blast makes sense of the blast effects. The explosion and the excess heat can have separate causes and separate energy sources. There is no inconsistency between this hypothesis and the evidence given. The necessity for the hypothesis is that any hypothesis is valid until ruled out by the evidence. Occam's Razor does not apply to anecdotes of single events. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 09:29:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VHTbW3020094; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:29:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VHTZZk020074; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:29:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:29:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131121318.034e9af0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:29:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded In-Reply-To: <2710D55E-C7FD-4103-A71A-41DDBC30AA82@mtaonline.net> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <2710D55E-C7FD-4103-A71A-41DDBC30AA82@mtaonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Neither can it be assumed that there was no hydrogen in the incubator. I doubt there was any. They usually open the incubator between runs, to make adjustments. Also, with the outer door open the incubator is not a bit airtight. (It is not at a constant temperature either, with the door open.) The effluent gas was vented from the cell through Tygon tubes out of the incubator where a sample of it was diverted into the mass spectrometer. He confirmed after the experiment that these tubes were not plugged up. The time was around 4:00 p.m. so they may have done other runs that day, but I think it is unlikely there would be any gas left in the incubator. I will ask if they did a previous run that day. Anyway, this discussion is irrelevant, in a sense, because there is no question there was a huge burst of anomalous energy underwater before the explosion, so even if the explosion was caused by recombination of gas in the incubator, that does not begin to explain the anomalous heat in the cell. >The blast effects do not indicate the energy came from within the cell. I do not see how that could be. Why would the cell shatter in all directions if the explosion was outside of it? Those cells are made of heavy-duty glass. >A high volume low energy density blast makes sense of the blast >effects. The explosion and the excess heat can have separate causes >and separate energy sources. It seems unlikely to me. As Bockris and Mizuno have pointed out, recombination explosions are common during electrochemistry experiments. They usually amount to a small pop that breaks the emergency valve. In Mizuno's case, this "valve" is usually an ordinary plastic drinking straw bent into a "V" shape and plugged into two holes at the top of the cell, like a cork. It it offers little resistance. I do not think he had a valve in this case, but anyway, that is the extent of an ordinary explosion. I have not yet had a chance to ask Mizuno about the x-axis label in Fig. 6. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 09:31:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VHUdAQ020661; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:30:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VHUbWM020633; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:30:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43DF9EB3.6080307@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:30:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050923 Fedora/1.7.12-1.5.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50B008CEB@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50B008CEB@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:41 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? > > Here's an interesting question: > > Is it possible to design a ground-fault interrupter which can carry -- > and safely break -- a 1000 amp current going into a 1000 volt load? > > Peaks of a megawatt in my car? Defrosting the windows should be pretty > easy. Eh, that wasn't exactly what I was thinking. Rather, a roadside fast-charging station needs to be able to source 1000 kV at 1000 amp; how can we make that safe? But I also wasn't thinking clearly about that, either -- the volts from the charging station would have to be isolated from ground, so the only way to get a shock from it would be across the two leads. And a GFI won't help with that anyway. Something along the lines of a GFI might still be useful to detect insulation faults in the station itself which could accidentally ground one side. As to your car peaking at a megawatt, if the battery pack is high-capacity and fast-charging, then yes, it would very likely be able to put out a megawatt without any trouble. It could very probably put out a lot more than that, actually, and if you dropped a wrench across the main battery terminals you'd most likely get an explosion. On the other hand, on the balance it's probably a lot safer than driving around with a half-full tank of gasoline in the back of the car, which we almost never give a second thought to, partly because we're used to it and partly because the manufacturers have had decades to figure out how to package the "bomb in the back" reasonably safely and inexpensively. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 10:11:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VIA2ub009475; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:10:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VI42ux006415; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:04:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:04:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131121318.034e9af0@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <2710D55E-C7FD-4103-A71A-41DDBC30AA82@mtaonline.net> <7.0.0.16.2.20060131121318.034e9af0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:00:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <5jgMaC.A.xjB.Oa63DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 31, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Anyway, this discussion is irrelevant, in a sense, because there is > no question there was a huge burst of anomalous energy underwater > before the explosion, so even if the explosion was caused by > recombination of gas in the incubator, that does not begin to > explain the anomalous heat in the cell. I made no attempt to explain the heat in the cell, only to explain the blast effects. These are separate issues. > > >> The blast effects do not indicate the energy came from within the >> cell. > > I do not see how that could be. Why would the cell shatter in all > directions if the explosion was outside of it? Those cells are made > of heavy-duty glass. As I explained earlier. The black top is conical, tapered on the sides. An overpressure would have driven that downward and forced the top glass sides outward. The shards remaining in place at the bottom indicate an overpressure explosion. Had the force been internal to the cell the bottom pieces and the material below would have been pulled apart. The fact the Tygon tubing remains intact is another indication the main explosion was not internal to the cell. The fact the glass shards made it out of the incubator while leaving the door intact indicates the door was opened prior to their arrival, which is fully consistent with an overpressure explanation, but not with the source of the blast energy being within the cell. > > >> A high volume low energy density blast makes sense of the blast >> effects. The explosion and the excess heat can have separate causes >> and separate energy sources. > > It seems unlikely to me. As Bockris and Mizuno have pointed out, > recombination explosions are common during electrochemistry > experiments. They usually amount to a small pop that breaks the > emergency valve. In Mizuno's case, this "valve" is usually an > ordinary plastic drinking straw bent into a "V" shape and plugged > into two holes at the top of the cell, like a cork. It it offers > little resistance. I do not think he had a valve in this case, but > anyway, that is the extent of an ordinary explosion. Exactly. This is even more evidence the majority of the blast energy originated outside the cell - assuming the blast is hydrogen fueled, a possibility that is not ruled out by an excess heat excursion in the cell. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 10:47:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VIlaGX031990; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:47:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VIlYwN031965; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:47:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:47:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:47:24 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7F4ADE8D307E0-20FC-1DB2@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50B008CEB@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <43DF9EB3.6080307@pobox.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <43DF9EB3.6080307@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence But I also wasn't thinking clearly about that, either -- the volts from the charging station would have to be isolated from ground, so the only way to get a shock from it would be across the two leads. <><><><><><><> EV-1 used inductive charging. No way to get shocked: http://home.earthlink.net/~bdewey/EV_charging.html Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 10:50:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VIoYwD001154; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:50:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VIoWln001127; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:50:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:47:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? In-reply-to: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50AF8C1B2@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Coviello [mailto:johnwc@patmedia.net] > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:29 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Zell, Chris" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:37 AM > Subject: RE: Who Killed the EV? > > >> I don't see any need for any conspiracy to kill off electric cars at >> all. The range is awful, they take time to recharge, the battery > life >> sucks and they are small >> - especially when compared to the profitable SUV's that US > manufacturers >> produce. They suck. > > It's a chicken and egg thing. > > I spent many an hour reading about battery research in libraries at > Cornell. There just wasn't anything worthwhile out there - and lithum > ion > is a maybe. The Don Quixote Car Company that built this stuff would > also need a charging station infrastructure, trained repairmen, a parts > dept, > And ---- possibly have to deal with liability issues from firemen and > shade tree mechanics ( or their widows) who got zapped by the power > pack. > > That's a pretty tall order from a company like GM or Ford, losing > billions a quarter and draining market share, year after year. > Well tax money built most roads, why can't tax money be used to build a charging infrastructure?? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 11:02:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VJ2BYp007993; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:02:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VJ24Hi007930; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:02:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:02:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=m6td+m+4jfikiQ+Kqy6+0EAFL966CAgFFMsyJTQgiJJINnLprXBUl3nfSyh+WmBzGHMKqZWrGzU7hW9HiEl1MLNJB8dHvrd12LSFaIs++089Ajds5Vdq6P1uEnshUcWzHj6w3OPXWAokdJsIdrLQpdFthRfXlVNsL2xaeXRN4NI= ; Message-ID: <20060131190158.39108.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:01:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-CK4MD.A.27B.sQ73DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > On Jan 31, 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Anyway, this discussion is irrelevant, in a sense, because there is no question there was a huge burst of anomalous energy underwater before the explosion, so even if the explosion was caused by recombination of gas in the incubator, that does not begin to explain the anomalous heat in the cell. Wait a minute. You guys are not listening. This is not irrelevant because the anomalous energy itself is what disproves a hydrogen explosion. This is the most relevant item of all. > I made no attempt to explain the heat in the cell, only to explain the blast effects. These are separate issues. No. Once again. A temperature rise of 17,000 degrees in 10 seconds in the cathode is proof postive that there could have been NO preexisting hydogen in the headspace (unless oxygen was totally absent). No prexisting hydrogen in the headspace indicates that there was none in the hood. Had there been any significant remnant hydrogen in either place, the explosion would have occured much sooner than the ten seconds and we could not possibly have seen the 60 degrees delta T in the remaining water. As to the damage, this is consistent with a few micrograms of sublimated tungsten at 17,000 degrees transfering heat to the water so that there was a flash steam explosion. The very small mass of accelerating material at high kinetic energy could not have damaged a much larger mass of tubing or other parts (million to one mass difference). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 11:44:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VJhp5v028252; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:43:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VJhnu9028232; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:43:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601311943.k0VJhi5h061408@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:43:43 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_d1ad6b8f0636441d188d8b0b8ab5baa0" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_d1ad6b8f0636441d188d8b0b8ab5baa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jones Beene ... > As to the damage, this is consistent with a few > micrograms of sublimated tungsten at 17,000 degrees > transfering heat to the water so that there was a > flash steam explosion. The very small mass of > accelerating material at high kinetic energy could not > have damaged a much larger mass of tubing or other > parts (million to one mass difference). > > Jones This brings to mind a conversion I think we had over a year ago where you did you best to explain the power of statistics and its relationship with the density ratio of loaded hydrogen in a metal lattice. It was easy for me to grasp the concept that while CF heat is typically nowhere near as high as what goes on in a hot fusion reactor the density ratio of H loaded in the metal lattice is on the order of several magnitudes more dense than hot plasma. That was easy to grasp! Therefore, statistically speaking, the probability of there being a combination may be just as possible, if not more. Did I get this right, Jones? Asimov in one of his puckish essays on the laws of probability and statistics discussed the chances of all the molecules in a room suddenly finding themselves all bunched up in a corner. It's not likely, but statistically speaking, it could happen in a zillion gazillion years. It makes me wonder if something similar might have happened in Mizuno's experiment where statistically speaking a sufficient amount of bunching of hydrogen may have occurred, in some little corner (or corners) of the metal lattice. Perhaps in another decade or two historians will look back at these historic events and shudder, amazed that more people weren't blown to smithereens as they tried to figure out what the hell was happening with there little glass jars. They did what??? Where they crazy??? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_d1ad6b8f0636441d188d8b0b8ab5baa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: Jones Beene

...

> As to the damage, this is consistent with a few
> micrograms of sublimated tungsten at 17,000 degrees
> transfering heat to the water so that there was a
> flash steam explosion. The very small mass of
> accelerating material at high kinetic energy could not
> have damaged a much larger mass of tubing or other
> parts (million to one mass difference).
>
> Jones

This brings to mind a conversion I think we had over a year ago where you d= id you best to explain the power of statistics and its relationship with th= e density ratio of loaded hydrogen in a metal lattice. It was easy for me t= o grasp the concept that while CF heat is typically nowhere near as high as= what goes on in a hot fusion reactor the density ratio of H loaded in the = metal lattice is on the order of several magnitudes more dense than hot pla= sma. That was easy to grasp! Therefore, statistically speaking, the probabi= lity of there being a combination may be just as possible, if not more.

Did I get this right, Jones?

Asimov in one of his puckish essays on the laws of probability and statisti= cs discussed the chances of all the molecules in a room suddenly finding th= emselves all bunched up in a corner. It's not likely, but statistically spe= aking, it could happen in a zillion gazillion years.

It makes me wonder if something similar might have happened in Mizuno's exp= eriment where statistically speaking a sufficient amount of bunching of hyd= rogen may have occurred, in some little corner (or corners) of the metal la= ttice. Perhaps in another decade or two historians will look back at these = historic events and shudder, amazed that more people weren't blown to smith= ereens as they tried to figure out what the hell was happening with there l= ittle glass jars. They did what??? Where they crazy???

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_d1ad6b8f0636441d188d8b0b8ab5baa0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 11:48:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VJmEJA030390; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VJmAhv030323; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131143827.03506ad8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:47:36 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded In-Reply-To: <20060131190158.39108.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060131190158.39108.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >No. Once again. A temperature rise of 17,000 degrees in 10 seconds >in the cathode is proof postive that there could have been NO >preexisting hydogen in the headspace (unless oxygen was totally absent). Yes, I was going to say I agree with that too -- and your previous message. Actually, the event was about 15 or 20 seconds, not 10. Anyway, a heat release on that scale lasting even a fraction of a second would have triggered a conventional recombination explosion in the headspace, although not in the incubator I suppose. Mizuno reported that the glow began underwater, as shown in the drawings recreating the event from memory. It remained underwater for an appreciable length of time -- enough for him to take note of it. >The very small mass of accelerating material at high kinetic energy could not >have damaged a much larger mass of tubing or other parts (million to >one mass difference). The Tygon tubes were reportedly undamaged. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 12:18:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VKHr3h013808; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:17:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VKHpQq013800; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:17:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OnSJbJbge5URf9iU1FCkbMpmakTkjixN9k05AXhxW/hTFmKmbqJRiYCejWDSCVxlGlFci0YPrCwZly8ePXu1dk6JAvW2xAKtPo71vauVPRYctglhJTk04TVSudXn+sPpkUk8EDcXdQ4iggjiI65Yd5b4aAs2xrpMhxeg+1AjuL8= ; Message-ID: <20060131201745.20432.qmail@web81103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:17:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <200601311943.k0VJhi5h061408@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: > Asimov in one of his puckish essays on the laws of > probability and statistics discussed the chances of > all the molecules in a room suddenly finding > themselves all bunched up in a corner. This is presumably not that kind of situation, Steven. In a tungsten cathode you get actual hydriding - so there is no need to resort to statistical sleight of hand. Plus ! there is something very unique about tungsten hydriding. W has 6 oxidation states and is the only metal in the periodic table in which the hydride can exist in 5 different bonding states of various energy. When these states are rapidly altered or oscillated, then, *recalescence* will be poised to occur. This normally gives only say 1/100 th of an eV of gain per atom. However, IF, the Casimir force intervenes, as it should at these geometric dimensions, then one does not need to resort to LENR to explain this. Unless of course the temperature gain of recalescence is what triggers the LENR. I actually like the Casimir/ZPE explanation better, in terms of Ockham and especialy since Mizuno has seen this kind of gain with plain vanilla hydrogen. What the Casimir/ZPE explanation would amount to is that because the tungsten lattice is vibrating in the terahertz range, in any period of only one second, it might arguably be possible to cohere several eV of net energy from ZPE per proton/deuteron IF the different phase changes are additive, due to Casimir (beta-aether) pressure being able to punch the expansion back down. Notice that this is somewhat similar to Horace's AEH, and the two concepts may have overlap. Since HH did not mention this, perhaps he does not think AEH is applicable. But I believe that Casimir/ZPE provides the best explanation for the range of Mizuno's experiments with tungsten going back many years. All I can say is that NO WAY is this only a hydrogen-only explosion - IF Dr. Mizuno has supplied us with accurate information. Hydrogen in the headspace would have exploded in less than 3 seconds at this rate of temperature gain - and the water would never have had the chance to heat up. There is zero doubt about that (given accurate inforamtion) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 12:26:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VKQ07w017941; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:26:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VKPvUR017909; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:25:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:25:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c626a4$8721d030$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: LIghtweight Ultraconducting E S Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:25:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C62672.3C0251B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2005-06-05) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C62672.3C0251B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C62672.3C0251B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C62672.3C0251B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHi Mark, Somewhere I read about advances in polymer research that promises even = better materials. I have tried to search but I can't find it. Will keep = looking .. I recall it had something to do with carbon nanos with = magnetic properties.Russian Academy of Sciences ?? Richard Mark wrote.. Los Alamos National Laboratory patented a lightweight containment system = using Kevlar. While the Patent was in force, our firm had rights for = use=20 with our polymers. Now that their Patent has expired we still expect to = use=20 that lightweight system of containment for UMES electron flywheels. Carbon fiber may prove to be an even better alternative and we are = watching=20 wire development progress with that extremely light material many times=20 stronger than steel. ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C62672.3C0251B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hi Mark,
Somewhere I  read about advances in polymer research that = promises=20 even better materials. I have tried to search but I can't find it. Will = keep=20 looking .. I recall it had something to do with carbon nanos with = magnetic=20 properties.Russian Academy of Sciences ??
 
Richard
 
 
Mark wrote..

Los Alamos National Laboratory patented a lightweight containment = system=20
using Kevlar.  While the Patent was in force, our firm had = rights for=20 use
with our polymers.  Now that their Patent has expired we = still=20 expect to use
that lightweight system of containment for UMES = electron=20 flywheels.

Carbon fiber may prove to be an even better = alternative and we=20 are watching
wire development progress with that extremely light = material=20 many times
stronger than steel.

------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C62672.3C0251B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C62672.3C0251B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002701c626a4$869b3b10$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C62672.3C0251B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 14:53:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VMrlcG019878; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:53:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VMriMB019861; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:53:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:53:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060127163153.034f8c80@mindspring.com> <000801c62629$f3832290$1714fea9@NuDell> <002101c6267b$e651c7f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:50:51 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <4jHvuB.A.R2E.4p-3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 31, 2006, at 6:35 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > > The previous run provides the "active" setting but it cannot be > presummed that there was significant residual hydrogen in the hood > - such as if the exhaust fan totally failed - and even if there was > this is totaly unnecssary and moreover inconsistent with this kind > of sudden power increase in the cell. There is no indication of a "previuos run" other than the fact the electrolysis was shut down briefly. > > If we are to accept everything Mizuno says, the explosion actually > could NOT have been casued by hydrogen at all ! He is assuming it could not have been caused by hydrogen in the cell, and that is most propbably correct. > That's right, a hydrogen explosion it totally inconsistent with > this situation - as it would have casued an explosion long before > the 10 seconds, and the water in the cell COULD NOT have attained > that temperature. It merely took 10 seconds to reach the conditions for the incubator hydrogen to be ignited by the exposed cell. > > At only 3-4 seconds the surface temperature of the cathode, down to > a micron or so was already near its melting point. If hydrogen had > been there, it would have exploded then - ending the episode and > not allowing further heat-up of the water. It is not the hydrogen in the cell that made the big bang, it is the hydrogen in the incubator. > > The Stephan-Boltzmann law defines the maximum power per unit area > that a perfect emitter of radiation (blackbody) can sustain. Nonsense. The Stephan-Boltzmann law refers only to photon radiation. It has little to do with heat transfer by direct contact. [snip irrelevant calculation] > A hydrogen explosion, or residual hydrogen left over from the > previous run would have ended this episode long before the 10 > seconds - so that possibility is eliminated. Only when the cell reaches a state where the external hydrogen can be ignited does the bang occur, and clearly that took about 10 seconds. > > Given this, personally I am suspicious of Mizuno figures or at > least wishing that an isoptic analysis of the metal surface had > been made, since that is the only way to prove a real nuclear > reaction. BTW - the most active part of the surface area could not > have been tested as it must have alreadu boiled off. The excess heat part of the event is indeed anomalous, and at least needs some looking at. My point is simply that there is not a *necessary* connection between the blast and the excess heat event other than the ignition. A high volume low energy density blast in the incubator makes sense of the blast effects. The black top is conical, tapered on the sides. An overpressure would have driven that downward and forced the top glass sides outward. The shards remaining in place at the bottom indicate an overpressure explosion. Had the force been internal to the cell the bottom pieces and the material below would have been pulled apart. The fact the Tygon tubing around the cathode remains intact, not even rearranged, is another indication the main explosion was not internal to the cell, and certainly not internal to the Tygon coil. The fact the glass shards made it out of the incubator while leaving the door intact indicates the door was opened prior to their arrival, which is fully consistent with an overpressure explanation, but not with the source of the blast energy being within the cell. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 15:04:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VN4b42025619; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:04:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VN4VRf025574; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:04:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:04:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131143827.03506ad8@mindspring.com> References: <20060131190158.39108.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060131143827.03506ad8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1B091066-A0D3-4F82-B766-589421C308D3@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:01:38 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: <3QSPX.A.iPG.-z-3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 31, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> No. Once again. A temperature rise of 17,000 degrees in 10 seconds >> in the cathode is proof postive that there could have been NO >> preexisting hydogen in the headspace (unless oxygen was totally >> absent). This is completely out of touch with physical reality. > > Yes, I was going to say I agree with that too -- and your previous > message. Actually, the event was about 15 or 20 seconds, not 10. > Anyway, a heat release on that scale lasting even a fraction of a > second would have triggered a conventional recombination explosion > in the headspace, although not in the incubator I suppose. What scale? What is the evidence such a heat release actually took place? > > Mizuno reported that the glow began underwater, as shown in the > drawings recreating the event from memory. It remained underwater > for an appreciable length of time -- enough for him to take note of > it. > > >> The very small mass of accelerating material at high kinetic >> energy could not >> have damaged a much larger mass of tubing or other parts (million >> to one mass difference). Utter nonsense! > > The Tygon tubes were reportedly undamaged. Yes, not even rearranged. Yet the explosion pressure wave, the origin of which is perportedly the cathode nestled inside the Tygon tubes, was sufficient to blow apart the cell, and blow open the incubator door prior to the arrival of the glass shards. Quite a bunch of miracles! You don't need a report. The evidence is at: http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 15:29:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VNTAkJ004082; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:29:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VNT8Sn004057; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:29:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:29:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.0.16.2.20060131181501.03497ba0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:28:56 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded In-Reply-To: <1B091066-A0D3-4F82-B766-589421C308D3@mtaonline.net> References: <20060131190158.39108.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060131143827.03506ad8@mindspring.com> <1B091066-A0D3-4F82-B766-589421C308D3@mtaonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >What scale? What is the evidence such a heat release actually took >place? I do not know how Jones Beene computed a 17,000 deg C temperature rise (presumably in a small area on the cathode). The energy release that is clear is 132,000 joules in 15 seconds, based on the three RTD readings in the electrolyte. This works out to 8,800 W average power. Concentrated in the area of the cathode that would cause a high temperature. The cathode was incandescent -- white in the visual range. Actually, 8,800 W is a large underestimation for two reasons: 1. Much of the heat went directly into pyrolysis, which does not raise the water temperature. 2. Every indication is that the heat continued to increase rapidly after the last data point was taken. We do not know how many seconds elapsed from the time of the last data point until the explosion. It could not have been more than five seconds. In any case, there was a rapid upward trend, so there must have been thousands more joules of heat released. In the last few seconds, a pronounced thermal gradient appeared. This means there was an extremely concentrated point source of heat in the water, because the water was rapidly and thoroughly mixed by the magnetic stirrer, and normally you do not see a large gradient, even during an intense glow discharge reaction. (You would if the RTDs were placed close to the cathode, but they aren't.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 15:48:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VNm1qg016689; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:48:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VNlxQm016670; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:47:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200601312347.k0VNlxR7033412@mail0.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:47:58 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_f02fbdf5a118b2e92ec54cc23cd2d25f" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <776yKD.A.ZEE.vc_3DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_f02fbdf5a118b2e92ec54cc23cd2d25f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Jones Beene ... > What the Casimir/ZPE explanation would amount to is > that because the tungsten lattice is vibrating in the > terahertz range, in any period of only one second, it > might arguably be possible to cohere several eV of net > energy from ZPE per proton/deuteron IF the different > phase changes are additive, due to Casimir > (beta-aether) pressure being able to punch the > expansion back down. Notice that this is somewhat > similar to Horace's AEH, and the two concepts may have > overlap. Since HH did not mention this, perhaps he > does not think AEH is applicable. But I believe that > Casimir/ZPE provides the best explanation for the > range of Mizuno's experiments with tungsten going back > many years. > > All I can say is that NO WAY is this only a > hydrogen-only explosion - IF Dr. Mizuno has supplied > us with accurate information. > > Hydrogen in the headspace would have exploded in less > than 3 seconds at this rate of temperature gain - and > the water would never have had the chance to heat up. > There is zero doubt about that (given accurate > inforamtion) > > Jones Two things come to mind. I've often wondered if (1) a unique combination of EM frequencies and (2) carefully constructed topological surfaces might enhance the effect. I'm was thinking of frequencies that resonated with the surrounding tungsten atoms within the lattice. I don't remember the details offhand but I seem to recall another series of intriguing CF experiments where a laser light was added to the experiment. The result created additional heat. It makes me think of the marching soldiers effect that are crossing the bridge. As the saying goes, it's advisable to break formation while crossing a bridge least the garrison bring the structure down with everyone marching in step. I wonder if portions of the tungsten lattice in Mizuno's jar were, to a certain extent, "brought down" by a similar resonating effect, an effect that ultimately resulted a chain reaction. I wonder if there might be a practical way to apply external EM frequencies that are tuned to the same terahertz frequency range as is suspected to be occurring within the tungsten lattice. I also wonder if a carefully constructed surface topology applied to the tungsten lattice would be of some additional benefit as well. A visual analogy would be row upon row of nano-scaled grooves, similar to what one would see at typical Japanese rock garden. What I'm speculating on is whether supplied EM frequencies that have been specifically tuned to the desired terahertz range of the lattice structures were allowed to bounce around within a carefully constructed lattice structure (the rock garden) - whether the combination of these two factors might boost the amount of energy generated in a more predictable manner. I wonder if it might be possible to generate a collection of EM interference patterns as dictated by the surface topology that might, in turn, become magnified in desirable ways, and that could be taken advantage of in driving the tungsten to generate additional heat in a predictable manner. I would imagine one of the major problems with the current effect (besides its unpredictability) is the fact that it seems to be extremely destructive! Gotta figure out a way to make it reusable. I would also imagine that by today's technological standards to attempt the construction of such a nano-scaled "rock garden" surface topology to the tungsten lattice structure would be a pretty damned difficult feat in itself. Very sophisticated nanotechnology would be involved. Needless to say, this is all uninhibited pie in-the-sky-speculation on my part. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_f02fbdf5a118b2e92ec54cc23cd2d25f Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Jones Beene

...

> What the Casimir/ZPE explanation would amount to is
> that because the tungsten lattice is vibrating in the
> terahertz range, in any period of only one second, it
> might arguably be possible to cohere several eV of net
> energy from ZPE per proton/deuteron IF the different
> phase changes are additive, due to Casimir
> (beta-aether) pressure being able to punch the
> expansion back down. Notice that this is somewhat
> similar to Horace's AEH, and the two concepts may have
> overlap. Since HH did not mention this, perhaps he
> does not think AEH is applicable. But I believe that
> Casimir/ZPE provides the best explanation for the
> range of Mizuno's experiments with tungsten going back
> many years.
>
> All I can say is that NO WAY is this only a
> hydrogen-only explosion - IF Dr. Mizuno has supplied
> us with accurate information.
>
> Hydrogen in the headspace would have exploded in less
> than 3 seconds at this rate of temperature gain - and
> the water would never have had the chance to heat up.
> There is zero doubt about that (given accurate
> inforamtion)
>
> Jones

Two things come to mind.

I've often wondered if (1) a unique combination of EM frequencies and (2) c= arefully constructed topological surfaces might enhance the effect. I'm was= thinking of frequencies that resonated with the surrounding tungsten atoms= within the lattice. I don't remember the details offhand but I seem to rec= all another series of intriguing CF experiments where a laser light was add= ed to the experiment. The result created additional heat.

It makes me think of the marching soldiers effect that are crossing the bri= dge. As the saying goes, it's advisable to break formation while crossing a= bridge least the garrison bring the structure down with everyone marching = in step. I wonder if portions of the tungsten lattice in Mizuno's jar were,= to a certain extent, "brought down" by a similar resonating effect, an eff= ect that ultimately resulted a chain reaction. I wonder if there might be a= practical way to apply external EM frequencies that are tuned to the same = terahertz frequency range as is suspected to be occurring within the tungst= en lattice.

I also wonder if a carefully constructed surface topology applied to the tu= ngsten lattice would be of some additional benefit as well. A visual analog= y would be row upon row of nano-scaled grooves, similar to what one would s= ee at typical Japanese rock garden. What I'm speculating on is whether supp= lied EM frequencies that have been specifically tuned to the desired terahe= rtz range of the lattice structures were allowed to bounce around within a = carefully constructed lattice structure (the rock garden) - whether the com= bination of these two factors might boost the amount of energy generated in= a more predictable manner. I wonder if it might be possible to generate a = collection of EM interference patterns as dictated by the surface topology = that might, in turn, become magnified in desirable ways, and that could be = taken advantage of in driving the tungsten to generate additional heat in a= predictable manner.

I would imagine one of the major problems with the current effect (besides = its unpredictability) is the fact that it seems to be extremely destructive= ! Gotta figure out a way to make it reusable.

I would also imagine that by today's technological standards to attempt the= construction of such a nano-scaled "rock garden" surface topology to the t= ungsten lattice structure would be a pretty damned difficult feat in itself= . Very sophisticated nanotechnology would be involved.

Needless to say, this is all uninhibited pie in-the-sky-speculation on my p= art.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_f02fbdf5a118b2e92ec54cc23cd2d25f-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 15:54:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k0VNrvpu019287; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k0VNrnAt019213; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <026a01c626c1$52411b60$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:51:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0267_01C62697.6321BB30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net Subject: Using Sound Waves To Induce Nuclear Fusion Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C62697.6321BB30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another bubble/sonofusion replication. I am surprised nobody posted = this already. Using Sound Waves To Induce Nuclear Fusion With No External Neutron = Source A team of researchers from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Purdue = University, and the Russian Academy of Sciences has used sound waves to = induce nuclear fusion without the need for an external neutron source, = according to a paper in the Jan. 27 issue of Physical Review Letters. = The results address one of the most prominent questions raised after = publication of the team's earlier results in 2004, suggesting that = "sonofusion" may be a viable approach to producing neutrons for a = variety of applications.=20 By bombarding a special mixture of acetone and benzene with oscillating = sound waves, the researchers caused bubbles in the mixture to expand and = then violently collapse. This technique, which has been dubbed = "sonofusion," produces a shock wave that has the potential to fuse = nuclei together, according to the team.=20 The telltale sign that fusion has occurred is the production of = neutrons. Earlier experiments were criticized because the researchers = used an external neutron source to produce the bubbles, and some have = suggested that the neutrons detected as evidence of fusion might have = been left over from this external source.=20 "To address the concern about the use of an external neutron source, we = found a different way to run the experiment," says Richard T. Lahey Jr., = the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer and coauthor = of the paper. "The main difference here is that we are not using an = external neutron source to kick the whole thing off."=20 In the new setup, the researchers dissolved natural uranium in the = solution, which produces bubbles through radioactive decay. "This = completely obviates the need to use an external neutron source, = resolving any lingering confusion associated with the possible influence = of external neutrons," says Robert Block, professor emeritus of nuclear = engineering at Rensselaer and also an author of the paper.=20 The experiment was specifically designed to address a fundamental = research question, not to make a device that would be capable of = producing energy, Block says. At this stage the new device uses much = more energy than it releases, but it could prove to be an inexpensive = and portable source of neutrons for sensing and imaging applications.=20 To verify the presence of fusion, the researchers used three independent = neutron detectors and one gamma ray detector. All four detectors = produced the same results: a statistically significant increase in the = amount of nuclear emissions due to sonofusion when compared to = background levels.=20 As a cross-check, the experiments were repeated with the detectors at = twice the original distance from the device, where the amount of = neutrons decreased by a factor of about four. These results are in = keeping with what would be predicted by the "inverse square law," which = provides further evidence that fusion neutrons were in fact produced = inside the device, according to the researchers.=20 The sonofusion debate began in 2002 when the team published a paper in = Science indicating that they had detected neutron emissions from the = implosion of cavitation bubbles of deuterated-acetone vapor. These data = were questioned because it was suggested that the researchers used = inadequate instrumentation, so the team replicated the experiment with = an upgraded instrumentation system that allowed data acquisition over a = much longer time. This led to a 2004 paper published in Physical Review = E, which was subsequently criticized because the researchers still used = an external neutron source to produce the bubbles, leading to the = current paper in Physical Review Letters.=20 The latest experiment was conducted at Purdue University. At Rensselaer = and in Russia, Lahey and Robert I. Nigmatulin performed the theoretical = analysis of the bubble dynamics and predicted the shock-induced = pressures, temperatures, and densities in the imploding bubbles. Block = helped to design, set up, and calibrate a state-of-the-art neutron and = gamma ray detection system for the new experiments.=20 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060130155542.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C62697.6321BB30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another bubble/sonofusion replication.  I am = surprised=20 nobody posted this already.

Using Sound Waves To Induce Nuclear Fusion With No External Neutron=20 Source

A team of researchers from Rensselaer Polytechnic = Institute,=20 Purdue University, and the Russian Academy of Sciences=20 has used sound waves to induce nuclear=20 fusion without the need for an external neutron=20 source, according to a paper in the Jan. 27 issue of Physical Review = Letters.=20 The results address one of the most prominent questions raised after = publication=20 of the team's earlier results in 2004, suggesting that "sonofusion" may = be a=20 viable approach to producing neutrons for a variety of applications. =

By bombarding a special mixture of acetone=20 and benzene with oscillating sound waves, the researchers caused bubbles = in the=20 mixture to expand and then violently collapse. This technique, which has = been=20 dubbed "sonofusion," produces a shock wave that has the potential to = fuse nuclei=20 together, according to the team.

The telltale sign that fusion has occurred is the production of = neutrons.=20 Earlier experiments were criticized because the researchers used an = external=20 neutron source to produce the bubbles, and some have suggested that the = neutrons=20 detected as evidence of fusion might have been left over from this = external=20 source.

"To address the concern about the use of an external neutron source, = we found=20 a different way to run the experiment," says Richard T. Lahey Jr., the = Edward E.=20 Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer and coauthor of the paper. = "The main=20 difference here is that we are not using an external neutron source to = kick the=20 whole thing off."

In the new setup, the researchers dissolved natural uranium in the = solution,=20 which produces bubbles through radioactive decay. "This completely = obviates the=20 need to use an external neutron source, resolving any lingering = confusion=20 associated with the possible influence of external neutrons," says = Robert Block,=20 professor emeritus of nuclear engineering at Rensselaer and also an = author of=20 the paper.

The experiment was specifically designed to address a fundamental = research=20 question, not to make a device that would be capable of producing energy,=20 Block says. At this stage the new device uses much more energy than it = releases,=20 but it could prove to be an inexpensive and portable source of neutrons = for=20 sensing and imaging applications.

To verify the presence of fusion, the researchers used three = independent=20 neutron detectors and one gamma ray detector. All four detectors = produced the=20 same results: a statistically significant increase in the amount of = nuclear emissions=20 due to sonofusion when compared to background levels.

As a cross-check, the experiments were repeated with the detectors at = twice=20 the original distance from the device, where the amount of neutrons = decreased by=20 a factor of about four. These results are in keeping with what would be=20 predicted by the "inverse square law," which provides further evidence = that=20 fusion neutrons were in fact produced inside the device, according to = the=20 researchers.

The sonofusion debate began in 2002 when the team published a paper = in=20 Science indicating that they had detected neutron emissions from the = implosion=20 of cavitation bubbles of deuterated-acetone vapor. These data were = questioned=20 because it was suggested that the researchers used inadequate = instrumentation,=20 so the team replicated the experiment with an upgraded instrumentation = system=20 that allowed data acquisition over a much longer time. This led to a = 2004 paper=20 published in Physical Review E, which was subsequently criticized = because the=20 researchers still used an external neutron source to produce the = bubbles,=20 leading to the current paper in Physical Review Letters.

The latest experiment was conducted at Purdue University. At = Rensselaer and=20 in Russia, Lahey and Robert I. Nigmatulin performed the theoretical = analysis of=20 the bubble dynamics and predicted the shock-induced pressures, = temperatures, and=20 densities in the imploding bubbles. Block helped to design, set up, and=20 calibrate a state-of-the-art neutron and gamma ray detection system for = the new=20 experiments.

ht= tp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060130155542.htm

 
------=_NextPart_000_0267_01C62697.6321BB30-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 17:32:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k111W3ig027026; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:32:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k111W0Mj026989; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:32:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:32:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RNvQ7oIbiFSYKHmF9iMboukODTVmcv+6/mbRV3u1Hn+yee6O5rkUrg0kVjd39NGulYHaYn2uyQr4V3tHwEdN/sw/iMl/bY6Fuhskj2+M08kCZA3mCJCfQmDEirHdqtBOUQeexrzr6jrkpjpKuL2KqYoeABdy4kwSD7eXPaHqnQs= ; Message-ID: <20060201013154.24479.qmail@web81109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:31:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <200601312347.k0VNlxR7033412@mail0.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <1t6XCD.A.ilG.Q-A4DB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: > I've often wondered if (1) a unique combination of > EM frequencies and (2) carefully constructed > topological surfaces might enhance the effect. I'm > was thinking of frequencies that resonated with the > surrounding tungsten atoms within the lattice. I > don't remember the details offhand but I seem to > recall another series of intriguing CF experiments > where a laser light was added to the experiment. The > result created additional heat. > > It makes me think of the marching soldiers effect > that are crossing the bridge. Yes. The laser addition is being championed by Letts/ Cravens - it is near the top of my list of "best bets" for significant LENR enhancement in 2006 - perhaps pushing past the "tipping point"- but the Israeli "superwave" stuff... intriguing in theory, but with many more negatives, in actuality. Jones Check out Steve Krivit's past posting on Letts' trip from Austin to SRI.... poignant to the extent of being worthy of a song or poem, if it turns out in the near future to be a direct Burkesian step towards the ultimate goal... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 19:58:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k113vlnX024086; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:57:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k113vdle024038; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:57:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:57:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.38] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <43E02B6F.3030502@comcast.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightweight Ultraconducting Energy Storage Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:57:26 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2006 03:57:27.0484 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DE107C0:01C626E3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It has been some time since I reviewed the energy density of electron flywheels, but as I recall, it was double that of mechanical ones. Incidenlty, the latter are being developed for a hybrid by at least one flywheel manufacturer. Mark >From: Bob Fickle >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Lightweight Ultraconducting Energy Storage >Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:30:55 -0600 > >True, lightweight high-strength containment materials may make such a >system practical, although they tend to be expensive. But there's no need >to wait. Both mechanical flywheels and compressed-air energy storage share >the same characteristics in this regard: stored energy scales directly >with the strength and size (and thus mass) of the container. Both will >have the same energy capacity as a superconducting storage system; so why >wait for ultraconductors? If Kevlar is practical, go ahead and build >flywheels into electric cars! > >Mark Goldes wrote: > >>Los Alamos National Laboratory patented a lightweight containment system >>using Kevlar. While the Patent was in force, our firm had rights for use >>with our polymers. Now that their Patent has expired we still expect to >>use that lightweight system of containment for UMES electron flywheels. >> >>Carbon fiber may prove to be an even better alternative and we are >>watching wire development progress with that extremely light material many >>times stronger than steel. >> >>Mark >> >> >>>From: Bob Fickle >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>Subject: Re: Room Temperature Superconductors and EVs >>>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:50:05 -0600 >>> >>>Much as I'd like to have some ultraconductor wire to play with, I'm not >>>convinced that Ultrqaconducting Magnetic Energy Storage will replace >>>batteries. Magnetic fields create a pressure equal to the energy >>>density- and therefore require a strong (read "heavy" and "expensive") >>>mechanical container. >>> >>>Mark Goldes wrote: >>> >>>>Harry, >>>> >>>>They can be made, but not yet in wire form. >>>> >>>>Thin films containing Ultraconductors 1 or 2 microns in diameter (1/50th >>>>the diameter of a human hair) can always carry 50 Amperes. The >>>>Ultraconductors run through the film in the thin direction, (i.e. normal >>>>to the film). >>>> >>>>Wire is 3 years and $18 million in front of us. >>>> >>>>Once available as wire, electron flywheels can begin to replace >>>>batteries. Ultraconducting Magnetic Energy Storage systems are expected >>>>to prove practical. >>>> >>>>Electric motors made with Ultraconducting wire can be much smaller and >>>>lighter, and may require no iron. Alll plastic motors may therefore >>>>prove practical. Superconducting motors require no iron. We suspect >>>>the same will be true of Ultraconductors. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: Harry Veeder >>>>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>>>Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? >>>>>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:29:14 -0500 >>>>> >>>>>If room temperature superconductors can be made they would also >>>>>boost the performance of electric vehicles. >>>>>If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 >>>>>showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as one of >>>>>the >>>>>promises of high temperature superconductors. >>>>> >>>>>Harry >>>>> >>>>>hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: Harry Veeder >>>>> > >>>>> > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? >>>>> > >>>>> > <><><><><><><> >>>>> > >>>>> > It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 >>>>>specs: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > tm >>>>> > >>>>> > or >>>>> > >>>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ckaju >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ___________________________________________________ >>>>> > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>>>> > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>>>> > http://mail.netscape.com >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 20:19:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k114IXSK000826; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:18:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k114IChv000672; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:18:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:18:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20060131201745.20432.qmail@web81103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060131201745.20432.qmail@web81103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: Mizuno paper about explosion uploaded Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:15:12 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Jan 31, 2006, at 11:17 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > > All I can say is that NO WAY is this only a > hydrogen-only explosion - IF Dr. Mizuno has supplied > us with accurate information. There is no evidence that prevents the possibility of the explosion being solely hydrogen fueled, especially fueled by hydrogen in the incubator. That is not to say the cell heating was hydrogen fueled. Nobody has said that. The cell heating and the explosion likely had differing energy sources. There is no indication the explosion occurred inside the Tygon coils, thus no indication the explosion itself or the energy for the explosion was linked directly to the cathode or anode. > > Hydrogen in the headspace would have exploded in less > than 3 seconds at this rate of temperature gain Please explain how you came up with this number. It sounds like an arbitrary guess, based on erroneous assumptions. The mechanism of the heating and even the source of heat is not nailed down. Second, the explosion and the cell heating are not even linked except that one may have triggered the other. > - and > the water would never have had the chance to heat up. This depends on the mechanism for heating the water. > There is zero doubt about that (given accurate > inforamtion) There is only zero doubt that we don't have all the needed information to draw certain conclusions. Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 19:31:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k113V8vx010261; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:31:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k113V6Hi010241; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:31:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:31:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <43E02B6F.3030502@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:30:55 -0600 From: Bob Fickle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightweight Ultraconducting Energy Storage References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: True, lightweight high-strength containment materials may make such a system practical, although they tend to be expensive. But there's no need to wait. Both mechanical flywheels and compressed-air energy storage share the same characteristics in this regard: stored energy scales directly with the strength and size (and thus mass) of the container. Both will have the same energy capacity as a superconducting storage system; so why wait for ultraconductors? If Kevlar is practical, go ahead and build flywheels into electric cars! Mark Goldes wrote: > Los Alamos National Laboratory patented a lightweight containment > system using Kevlar. While the Patent was in force, our firm had > rights for use with our polymers. Now that their Patent has expired > we still expect to use that lightweight system of containment for UMES > electron flywheels. > > Carbon fiber may prove to be an even better alternative and we are > watching wire development progress with that extremely light material > many times stronger than steel. > > Mark > > >> From: Bob Fickle >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: Room Temperature Superconductors and EVs >> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:50:05 -0600 >> >> Much as I'd like to have some ultraconductor wire to play with, I'm >> not convinced that Ultrqaconducting Magnetic Energy Storage will >> replace batteries. Magnetic fields create a pressure equal to the >> energy density- and therefore require a strong (read "heavy" and >> "expensive") mechanical container. >> >> Mark Goldes wrote: >> >>> Harry, >>> >>> They can be made, but not yet in wire form. >>> >>> Thin films containing Ultraconductors 1 or 2 microns in diameter >>> (1/50th the diameter of a human hair) can always carry 50 Amperes. >>> The Ultraconductors run through the film in the thin direction, >>> (i.e. normal to the film). >>> >>> Wire is 3 years and $18 million in front of us. >>> >>> Once available as wire, electron flywheels can begin to replace >>> batteries. Ultraconducting Magnetic Energy Storage systems are >>> expected to prove practical. >>> >>> Electric motors made with Ultraconducting wire can be much smaller >>> and lighter, and may require no iron. Alll plastic motors may >>> therefore prove practical. Superconducting motors require no iron. >>> We suspect the same will be true of Ultraconductors. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: Harry Veeder >>>> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> Subject: Re: Who Killed the EV? >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:29:14 -0500 >>>> >>>> If room temperature superconductors can be made they would also >>>> boost the performance of electric vehicles. >>>> If I remember correctly, a Time magazine cover from around '86 or '87 >>>> showed an artist's rendering of a futuristic electric vehicle as >>>> one of the >>>> promises of high temperature superconductors. >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Harry Veeder >>>> > >>>> > Do they mean the braking system did not use friction? >>>> > >>>> > <><><><><><><> >>>> > >>>> > It used both: disc in front, electric in rear. Here are the EV-1 >>>> specs: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/specs/specs_specs_top.h >>>> >>>> >>>> > tm >>>> > >>>> > or >>>> > >>>> > http://tinyurl.com/ckaju >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ___________________________________________________ >>>> > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>>> > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>>> > http://mail.netscape.com >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 22:01:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k1161JAh021555; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k1161HuE021538; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:01:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:01:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 00:58:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Turbulence research news To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Turbulence yields secrets to 73-year-old experiment http://www.physorg.com/news10409.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 31 23:24:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k117OkYa027839; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:24:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.4/8.12.10/Submit) id k117Oil0027822; Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:24:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:24:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060131232727.0294ee48@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:27:49 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: iesi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/66166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://diyduediligence.blogspot.com