From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 01:24:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k418O7IC017141; Mon, 1 May 2006 01:24:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k418O4nx017114; Mon, 1 May 2006 01:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 01:24:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UjxEqG5vHaqKemsFWABBKWOzxro7Xr9rNju8XM5ZBEOkR85WjVTPZfzMESq+9W9O; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651182349670@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 02:23:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402d37a25171421bbc3eada97bebd17ebd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.142 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6683407-description.html If there are any low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they should show up when a lamp is first lit. Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"? Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator? Which way will the orgone flow? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr:
 
 
If there are any  low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they
should show up when a lamp is first lit.
Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb
blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"?
 
Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator?
 
Which way will the orgone flow?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 02:24:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k419OYQG007989; Mon, 1 May 2006 02:24:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k419OXeZ007978; Mon, 1 May 2006 02:24:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 02:24:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=a2wd7YaUiRAVLZTLWItgNcJoCOZOFdKeYJ4HbKtGL4QfZzFZolEgcNRkInLfB8Ed; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065119241963@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 03:24:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940717f9285e6f3c7aab419c0331643e0ee350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A standard 4 foot (122 cm long) T-12 1.5 inch (3.8 cm diameter) fluorescent bulb at 5 Torr Argon pressure should contain ~ 2.46e20 Argon atoms. or ~0.025 eV /atom with a 1.0 joule energy input. pulse. About the same eV/atom at 300 degrees K ambient temperature. Sounds a bit like the PAGD doesn't it? There could be H2O vapor in the bulb already? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/1/2006 2:24:41 AM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6683407-description.html If there are any low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they should show up when a lamp is first lit. Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"? Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator? Which way will the orgone flow? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A standard 4 foot (122 cm long) T-12 1.5 inch (3.8 cm diameter) fluorescent
bulb at 5 Torr Argon pressure should contain ~ 2.46e20 Argon atoms.
or ~0.025 eV /atom with a 1.0 joule energy input. pulse.
About the same eV/atom at 300 degrees K ambient temperature.
Sounds a bit like the PAGD doesn't it?
There could be H2O vapor in the bulb already?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/2006 2:24:41 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr:
 
 
If there are any  low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they
should show up when a lamp is first lit.
Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb
blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"?
 
Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator?
 
Which way will the orgone flow?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 02:35:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k419ZcnY012612; Mon, 1 May 2006 02:35:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k419Zac1012588; Mon, 1 May 2006 02:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 02:35:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Tr7EvnPp4KFU8ftoJxyGrkudmUngwwlaJChFDKqICyKjEo2U0xPL/Jcdi9vGra+k; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065119352784@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 03:35:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c87524a14e0ea475b52a4a6607ca4ca9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.174 Resent-Message-ID: <61Lb5.A.jED.oZdVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Papp Engine vs PAGD: http://www.aetherometry.com/papp_engine.html "Both systems employ a sudden (and catastrophic) electric discharge. Papp followed the model of the internal combustion (IC) engine, with the high-pressure spark igniting the inert gas fuel. In the PAGD, the 'spark' consists of a diachronic cluster of auto-electronic emission sites that fail to sustain a vacuum-arc. The electric discharge is not accessory, as it is in the Papp technology; rather, it is constitutive of the technology by its physical characteristics, including the autogenous pulsation. It is, in fact, the method whereby the 'vacuum-state' is tapped. The PAGD discharge is a low field auto-electronic emission that directly generates the electron plasma from a cathode that can be treated as fuel [9]. This has a deep parallel with the Papp engine, where the explosion is, in our view, driven by the formation of an electron plasma emitted from the inert gas mixture - which must thus be treated as the fuel proper (see below). The basis for the presence of anomalous cathode reaction forces in the Papp combustion, stems, in our view, entirely from the (quasi-solid) conditions that permit autoelectronic emission from inert gases. " I sure backed into that one. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/1/2006 3:22:57 AM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone A standard 4 foot (122 cm long) T-12 1.5 inch (3.8 cm diameter) fluorescent bulb at 5 Torr Argon pressure should contain ~ 2.46e20 Argon atoms. or ~0.025 eV /atom with a 1.0 joule energy input. pulse. About the same eV/atom at 300 degrees K ambient temperature. Sounds a bit like the PAGD doesn't it? There could be H2O vapor in the bulb already? ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Papp Engine vs PAGD:
 
 
"Both systems employ a sudden (and catastrophic) electric discharge. Papp followed the model of the internal combustion (IC) engine, with the high-pressure spark igniting the inert gas fuel. In the PAGD, the 'spark' consists of a diachronic cluster of auto-electronic emission sites that fail to sustain a vacuum-arc. The electric discharge is not accessory, as it is in the Papp technology; rather, it is constitutive of the technology by its physical characteristics, including the autogenous pulsation. It is, in fact, the method whereby the 'vacuum-state' is tapped. The PAGD discharge is a low field auto-electronic emission that directly generates the electron plasma from a cathode that can be treated as fuel [9]. This has a deep parallel with the Papp engine, where the explosion is, in our view, driven by the formation of an electron plasma emitted from the inert gas mixture - which must thus be treated as the fuel proper (see below). The basis for the presence of anomalous cathode reaction forces in the Papp combustion, stems, in our view, entirely from the (quasi-solid) conditions that permit autoelectronic emission from inert gases. "
 
I sure backed into that one.  :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/2006 3:22:57 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

A standard 4 foot (122 cm long) T-12 1.5 inch (3.8 cm diameter) fluorescent
bulb at 5 Torr Argon pressure should contain ~ 2.46e20 Argon atoms.
or ~0.025 eV /atom with a 1.0 joule energy input. pulse.
About the same eV/atom at 300 degrees K ambient temperature.
Sounds a bit like the PAGD doesn't it?
There could be H2O vapor in the bulb already?
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 03:32:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41AWiDB002777; Mon, 1 May 2006 03:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41AWgcF002757; Mon, 1 May 2006 03:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 03:32:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EjIvKPFW4NPSKt4FgzjCF+3i7pleO4HrwNSnSV6yJYcjfX1sLsqkTVAayCfe6g6I; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006511103231451@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: PAGD Levitation? Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 04:32:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dfe73ccf4ea0b3a24e68178ea50258c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.14 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge in the Argon in a standard T-12 40 watt fluorescent bulb approaches 40,000 joules per cubic meter (negative antigravity energy here?) It sure would explain the colors, Terry described on 04-01-06: > > The color changes depending on >whether the object is slowing, > stationary, or accelerating -- red/pink, white/blue, blue/violet; respectively. > I'm sure Mach could explain that. ;-) > > Terry > Or is that just part of the power source? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge in the Argon in
a standard T-12 40 watt fluorescent bulb approaches
40,000 joules per cubic meter (negative antigravity energy here?)
 
It sure would explain the colors, Terry described on 04-01-06:
>
> The color changes depending on >whether the object is slowing,
> stationary, or accelerating -- red/pink, white/blue, blue/violet; respectively.
> I'm sure Mach could explain that. ;-)
> 
> Terry
>
Or is that just part of the power source?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 07:49:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41EnJQI001474; Mon, 1 May 2006 07:49:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41EnH0w001445; Mon, 1 May 2006 07:49:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 07:49:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=V1UtBtxUx2W1nBBDcn4BIqf6xVVBwe/MX6jDqYSlMcpAdTUVokDEvG0VzjX423W0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651114494969@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:49:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94030d5b4acce85f107cb36c4b4e98f1712350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.179 Resent-Message-ID: <0_OjzB.A.YW.s_hVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In the words of James Burke's, "Connections". The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 -90.67 F Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K Handy Conversion calculators. http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
In the words of James Burke's, "Connections".
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas                 Inversion Temp Deg K
Space                     0-3
Helium                    51
Hydrogen              205   -90.67 F
Neon                      242
Nitrogen                621     658.13 F
Argon                     723     841.73 F
Krypton                  727
Oxygen                  893     1147.73
Xenon                  1427
 
Zero Deg C  =     273 Deg K
Zero Deg F  =     255 Deg K
 
Handy Conversion calculators.
 
 
Fred
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 08:07:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41F7BVr010880; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:07:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41F79pK010852; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:07:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: "vortex-l" Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:06:52 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Message-ID: <4455F9DC.9744.78A12EC@enki.cpovo.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <410-2200651182349670@earthlink.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki@cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 01 May 2006 11:47:44 -0300 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-Lookup-Warning: HELO/EHLO lookup on 192.168.7.108 does not match 201.3.128.42 X-MDRemoteIP: 201.3.128.42 X-Return-Path: enki@cpovo.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Mon, 01 May 2006 11:47:45 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is this patent that can be related: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat3781601.pdf MJ On 1 May 2006 at 2:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr: > > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6683407-description.html > > If there are any low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they > should show up when a lamp is first lit. > Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb > blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"? > > Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator? > > Which way will the orgone flow? > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 08:12:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41FCScR013687; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:12:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41FCQMH013666; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:12:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 11:12:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC How to write spontaneously Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a quote from the John Kenneth Galbraith obit., New York Times: He continued to rise early and, despite the seeming effortlessness of his prose, revised each day's work at least five times. "It was usually on about the fourth day that I put in that note of spontaneity for which I am known," he said. Exactly right! As Churchill (I think it was) put it, one must practice and prepare meticulously for an extemporaneous speech. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:06:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41G6Ak2010884; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:06:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41G68ls010862; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:06:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:06:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=c2/NgpgV9+DyLLtFBLUq4NI9I3plhAFHytl8Dh4gAeh+HSRAUnkLzoGFSYQ9MFGf; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065111660325@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:06:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fe512a280026d8d437d441f8acace5a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.134 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Jordan wrote. > > There is this patent that can be related: > > http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat3781601.pdf > > MJ > Thanks Mark. An interesting way to boost luminous efficiency but no direct info on OU heat without running an experiment. If you compare #18 table I (22.33 watts input) and Table II lamp #18 (10.90 watts input) he is using 33.23 watts and a bunch of lamps to get that "boost". No? Fred > > On 1 May 2006 at 2:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > Fluorescent lamps have an Argon fill pressure of ~ 3 to 5 Torr: > > > > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6683407-description.html > > > > If there are any low-pressure/vacuum-induced (Casimir-ZPE) heat effects, they > > should show up when a lamp is first lit. > > Charge a capacitor to a few KV and dump it into a fluorescent bulb > > blackened with spray paint, and placed inside a water-filled PVC pipe "calorimeter"? > > > > Hooked up as the negative resistance discharge load of a relaxation oscillator? > > > > Which way will the orgone flow? > > > > Fred > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:09:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41G8jKD012253; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:08:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41G8fkD012204; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:08:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:08:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003301c66d39$80c5d4d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4455F9DC.9744.78A12EC@enki.cpovo.net> Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:08:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <2qpjPD.A.e-C.IKjVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jordan" > There is this patent that can be related: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat3781601.pdf And ... check out the rather amazing claim on page 65 of this document, 2/3 down the left column. That would be clearly overunity yet... this patent has been around for 35 years now and Imris is not exactly a houshold word - nor is the technique is general use, which it should be if it were true - and with patents expired and many companies desirous to save power on lighting.... strange. Mark has commented on this on Keeleynet but they are using the substandard eScribe server and very little will come up. But further - and on a curious (and convoluted note) the assignee: Ecotrol - is now apparently a trademark of the EcoSmart company in Tennessee, among whose many patents for pesticides are quite a few under the name of Paul Sprain, who apparently has switched his focus these days to magnetic overunity. At any rate, he seems to be quite the ecologist and creative genius - but certainly not a publicity seeker... and there is no reason to believe that there is anything other than a coincidental connection of these similar names. Jones Imris patent 3,781,601 - Inv: Pavel Imris, West Haven, Conn. Assigned to: Ecotrol, Inc. Md, Describing the circuit on page 6...the face of the electrode can be any desired shape. However, a conical point of 60 degrees has been found to be satisfactory and it is believed to have an influence on the efficiency of the generator. In addition, the type of gas selected for used in the tube 26 as well as the pressure of the gas in the tube also effect the efficiency of the generator, and, in turn, the efficiency of electrical circuit. ....Across a single fluorescent lamp, the voltage is 60 V and the current is 0.1818 A; therefore the input energy to the lamp 42 is 10.90 W. The output of the fluorescent lamp is 3,200 lumens which represent 8.8 W power of light energy. Thus, the one fluorescent lamp is operating at 80.7 percent efficiency under these conditions. ....In Fig 3, still another embodiment of the optical electrostatic generator 20b is shown. The generator is also particularly useable in a circuit including electrostatic particle precipitation in air pollution control devices, chemical synthesis in electrical discharge systems such as ozone generators, and charging means for high voltage generators of the Van de Graff type, as well as particle accelerators. ....However, when the optical generator is the same as described for Test No 18 and there are 100 fluorescent lamps in series in the circuit, the total power input is 227.7 watts for the optical generator and 1,090 watts for 100 fluorescent lamps or a total of 1,318 watts. The total power input normally required to operate the 100 fluorescent lamps in a normal circuit would be 40 watts times 100 or 4,000 watts. Thus, by using the optical generator in the circuit, about 2,680 watts of energy are saved. It was already 80% efficient, we are told and yet now the power input has been reduced to a third of the previous power indication a COP of at least 2.4 At higher pressures, the device deffinitely becomes Over Unity in the claims. For instance, with a Xenon filled tube at 5,000 torr in a series circuit with 100 40 Watt flouresent lamps (with a single wire going to each end of each lamp), the optical generator pulls 332 Watts, with each lamp pulling 9 tenths Watt (at 5 Volts) for 3,200 lumens output (8.8 Watts) per tube - giving a total for the circuit of 880 Watts output for 442 Watts input. Hmmm.... something doesn't add up here, no? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:17:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GHFJi017094; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:17:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41GHDqh017061; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:17:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:17:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:16:56 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC How to write spontaneously In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: >That's a little like: "Sincerity is a great selling tool; if you can >fake sincerity you've got it made." It is a little like that. But I think it is more like saying that a great actor can imitate any emotion, even if he does not actually feel it at the moment. A good writer gives the impression of light hearted, effortless spontaneity, even though most labor mightily to achieve that effect. Why should the reader care? Is the effect you want; it makes no difference how it came about. What harm is there to artifice? In China and Japan, many great classical ink paintings and calligraphy scrolls were probably "dashed off" in 10 or 15 minutes. Some of them consist only a few strokes. They appear to be spontaneous, and in a sense they are, but they are also the result of many years of practice and fabulous craftsmanship. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:22:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GMVh3020466; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41GME3h020316; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501121951.03ef9900@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:21:54 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC How to write spontaneously In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Is the effect you want; it makes no difference how it came about. I meant: "IT IS the effect you want . . ." Great writers did not have to put up with voice input, either, those lucky duckies. I have not heard that Joseph Conrad said he married his wife, because, he said, "she is a good typist." (He was a dour fellow, and I wouldn't put it past him.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:29:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GTKTt024309; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:29:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41GTEKe024275; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:29:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:29:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501122756.03ed8868@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:29:04 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC How NOT to write In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501121951.03ef9900@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060501121951.03ef9900@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "I have not heard that Joseph Conrad . . ." It is NOT my day . . . Sigh . . . - Jed (resorting to typing by hand) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:44:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GiRf8000569; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:44:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41GiMuL000527; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:44:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:44:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007001c66d3e$7e95bc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Don't ask, don't tell? Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:44:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html Interesting that there are about 5000 patents which have been sequestered by Uncle Sam.... most probably relate to arms and explosives... but... Wonder how many of them related to energy? Notice that DoE puts in about 3-4 orders in some years - now, just what kind of invention could be seen as a national "threat" by DoE ???? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:57:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GvM5Q007859; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:57:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41GvJj9007833; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:57:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:57:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [66.81.219.16] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <007001c66d3e$7e95bc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Don't ask, don't tell? Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 09:57:17 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2006 16:57:18.0126 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E0A24E0:01C66D40] Resent-Message-ID: <8GJZAD.A.V6B.v3jVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: During the Clinton years, I heard that almost the only inventions that were classified were related to crypto. NSA did not want advanced crypto systems public. Since this administration came to power that may have changed, possibly dramatically. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: "vortex" >Subject: Don't ask, don't tell? >Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:44:19 -0700 > >http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html > >Interesting that there are about 5000 patents which have been sequestered >by Uncle Sam.... most probably relate to arms and explosives... but... > >Wonder how many of them related to energy? Notice that DoE puts in about >3-4 orders in some years - now, just what kind of invention could be seen >as a national "threat" by DoE ???? > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 10:43:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41HgXw0000575; Mon, 1 May 2006 10:42:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41HgW9G000556; Mon, 1 May 2006 10:42:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:42:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mtJCqB9xSIS9ktHOM46Sjtwn4qsxpd+SadTx9zUJjpS530ByICRfHHQ81augqmf8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006511174220393@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 11:42:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94002f8a25d81f70ea0264d545e9cca81e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.160 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A "Remanufactured" 12 volt lead-acid battery seems like an easier/cheaper way to make a "Joe Cell". The charged 12 volt utility batteries used in lawn mowers etc usually sell for $25.00 if you don't have a trade-in. But you would have to flush out the electrolyte using baking soda to neutralize the sulfuric acid. Lead Acid Battery Recycling Info: http://www.lead-battery-recycling.com/lead-battery-recycling.html Good Pix too. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A "Remanufactured"   12 volt lead-acid battery seems like
an easier/cheaper way to make a "Joe Cell". The charged 12 volt
utility batteries used in lawn mowers etc usually sell for $25.00 if
you don't have a trade-in. But you would have to flush out
the electrolyte using baking soda to neutralize the  sulfuric acid.
 
Lead Acid Battery Recycling Info:
 
 
Good Pix too.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 12:38:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41Jc5Wh003394; Mon, 1 May 2006 12:38:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41Jc31I003371; Mon, 1 May 2006 12:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 12:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501150020.03ef9900@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501145912.03ee6268@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 15:00:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Record month at LENR-CANR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4-9_RC.A.i0.aOmVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope this indicates a trend. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#Downloads From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 13:15:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41KFaLN027612; Mon, 1 May 2006 13:15:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41KFXA2027576; Mon, 1 May 2006 13:15:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:15:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 16:15:36 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83B73249C9E0A-828-3D78@mblkn-m10.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <007001c66d3e$7e95bc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <007001c66d3e$7e95bc20$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Don't ask, don't tell? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.74 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k41KFVEX027547 Resent-Message-ID: <6mZUKC.A.wuG.lxmVEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html    Interesting that there are about 5000 patents which have been sequestered by Uncle Sam.... most probably relate to arms and explosives... but...    Wonder how many of them related to energy? Notice that DoE puts in about 3-4 orders in some years - now, just what kind of invention could be seen as a national "threat" by DoE ????   <><><><><><><> "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." -Dwight D. Eisenhower ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 08:57:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41FveAm006861; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:57:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41FvcNo006838; Mon, 1 May 2006 08:57:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:57:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=iTdZIoEnFIKQDqHnEnhQ59Y7BBms6PjT9YRUoY3xRun8wm+gH84TMOdCrYuNpcbWX+kloyLywGiJ9ULzuu9zIK4c4BYCS6SAMGh39NZAnCZwpGhoS3gD6YRcGvRZ0LfDGMWywZI5nNfsqa8VW/bIMGVd5T2jIYqpM035aVPSMv4= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 11:48:46 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC How to write spontaneously In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: That's a little like: "Sincerity is a great selling tool; if you can fake sincerity you've got it made." P. At 11:12 AM 5/1/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Here is a quote from the John Kenneth Galbraith obit., New York Times: > >He continued to rise early and, despite the seeming effortlessness of his >prose, revised each day's work at least five times. "It was usually on >about the fourth day that I put in that note of spontaneity for which I am >known," he said. > > >Exactly right! As Churchill (I think it was) put it, one must practice and >prepare meticulously for an extemporaneous speech. > >- Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 09:53:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k41GrfEh005736; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:53:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k41Grecb005724; Mon, 1 May 2006 09:53:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:53:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=mtQ0Qf+16tbgd9X2THVj2ZkYaGb6hB/qO6Sye3ulKy4KWlVA/84byJ2n2ed7y+qm7ROzsP6mB2vHeKgv7VBCmTIDziQABdKdwHRhWpC5mpRUU3HHNYdrHh467yDQn0zHujsKJK8WPuGFs5kcsl3P9j5X0309R0G0iKRbIzvBBZM= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060501123826.01db9c80@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 12:44:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC How to write spontaneously In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060501110813.03ef3be0@mindspring.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060501114731.01db5810@pop> <7.0.1.0.2.20060501115946.03ec61f8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24823921==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24823921==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jed - good points... I'm a martial arts teacher (as well as a never-ending student), and it's true that one practises and practises so that one can act spontaneously... and totally intuitively. In other words, practise is essential so that one can eliminate the need for the intellect, and thus use only the intuition. My former karate teacher told us that his job was "to make the conscious unconscious and the unconscious conscious." The oriental paintings are a case in point. Japanese paintings are created in seconds... but what leads up to them is immense training - both physical and mental - such that "it" appears on the paper, apparently effortlessly. They are spontaneous inasmuch as they require no interference from the intellect (which is relatively dull... someone will crucify me for saying that, I'm sure... :-) P. At 12:16 PM 5/1/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > >>That's a little like: "Sincerity is a great selling tool; if you can fake >>sincerity you've got it made." > >It is a little like that. But I think it is more like saying that a great >actor can imitate any emotion, even if he does not actually feel it at the >moment. > >A good writer gives the impression of light hearted, effortless >spontaneity, even though most labor mightily to achieve that effect. Why >should the reader care? Is the effect you want; it makes no difference how >it came about. What harm is there to artifice? > >In China and Japan, many great classical ink paintings and calligraphy >scrolls were probably "dashed off" in 10 or 15 minutes. Some of them >consist only a few strokes. They appear to be spontaneous, and in a sense >they are, but they are also the result of many years of practice and >fabulous craftsmanship. > >- Jed > --=====================_24823921==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jed - good points...

I'm a martial arts teacher (as well as a never-ending student), and it's true that one practises and practises so that one can act spontaneously... and totally intuitively.  In other words, practise is essential so that one can eliminate the need for the intellect, and thus use only the intuition.  My former karate teacher told us that his job was "to make the conscious unconscious and the unconscious conscious."

The oriental paintings are a case in point. Japanese paintings are created in seconds... but what leads up to them is immense training - both physical and mental - such that "it" appears on the paper, apparently effortlessly.  They are spontaneous inasmuch as they require no interference from the intellect (which is relatively dull... someone will crucify me for saying that, I'm sure... :-)

P.


At 12:16 PM 5/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Philip Winestone wrote:

That's a little like: "Sincerity is a great selling tool; if you can fake sincerity you've got it made."

It is a little like that. But I think it is more like saying that a great actor can imitate any emotion, even if he does not actually feel it at the moment.

A good writer gives the impression of light hearted, effortless spontaneity, even though most labor mightily to achieve that effect. Why should the reader care? Is the effect you want; it makes no difference how it came about. What harm is there to artifice?

In China and Japan, many great classical ink paintings and calligraphy scrolls were probably "dashed off" in 10 or 15 minutes. Some of them consist only a few strokes. They appear to be spontaneous, and in a sense they are, but they are also the result of many years of practice and fabulous craftsmanship.

- Jed


--=====================_24823921==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 17:19:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k420JALL016697; Mon, 1 May 2006 17:19:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k420J7kR016661; Mon, 1 May 2006 17:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 17:19:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fRbnQpzVwpQIddoQFgbGpSwbPReiRuxrREPRLuKeiwMc3eKXyN9i4oj9ZJFlKPNk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652201848192@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 18:18:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940226efc73b2924797a79208cffe9af830350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.60 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS. IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring. USE THIS PSYCH CHART: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 -90.67 F Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K Conversion calculators. http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine
to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling
effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and
using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE
so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS.
IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring.
 
USE THIS PSYCH CHART:
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas                 Inversion Temp Deg K
Space                     0-3
Helium                    51
Hydrogen              205   -90.67 F
Neon                      242
Nitrogen                621     658.13 F
Argon                     723     841.73 F
Krypton                  727
Oxygen                  893     1147.73
Xenon                  1427
 
Zero Deg C  =     273 Deg K
Zero Deg F  =     255 Deg K
 
Conversion calculators.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 1 18:45:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k421iitj026184; Mon, 1 May 2006 18:44:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k421igp8026176; Mon, 1 May 2006 18:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 18:44:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Nca8U9APsV75+1w6Jn77IPIY1EsPfiggWgIEHDsgtjOXb+podw6nVEls/rzpNeZT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652214429252@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:44:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407df6ed56867ad6a0017da0f1cc3b4b2b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.152 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier: > > IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring. > I meant it may not need to produce O, OH, and H, H2 or H3O, but, the electrolysis heat from the battery may provide the heat for vaporizing the water, SATURATED STEAM TABLE CALCULATOR: (and more) http://www.connel.com/cgi-bin/steam.pl Why rack your brain? :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/1/2006 6:19:57 PM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS. IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring. USE THIS PSYCH CHART: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 -90.67 F Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K Conversion calculators. http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier:
>
> IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring.
>
I meant it may not need to produce O, OH, and H, H2 or H3O,
but, the electrolysis heat from the battery may provide the heat
for vaporizing the water,
 
SATURATED STEAM TABLE CALCULATOR:  (and more)
 
 
Why rack your brain?   :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/2006 6:19:57 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine
to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling
effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and
using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE
so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS.
IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring.
 
USE THIS PSYCH CHART:
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas                 Inversion Temp Deg K
Space                     0-3
Helium                    51
Hydrogen              205   -90.67 F
Neon                      242
Nitrogen                621     658.13 F
Argon                     723     841.73 F
Krypton                  727
Oxygen                  893     1147.73
Xenon                  1427
 
Zero Deg C  =     273 Deg K
Zero Deg F  =     255 Deg K
 
Conversion calculators.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 03:27:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42ARlru020217; Tue, 2 May 2006 03:27:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42ARftZ020178; Tue, 2 May 2006 03:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 03:27:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nCrJA/FT4xGTIpcqvycfQ9wQyyuCQdS04J3t1axu0TTAXD17BWEP9Tg4FNqWxmrK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065221027237@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 04:27:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403b1a4a8e9bcc771f4f802d015acdea56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.76 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A bit of a problem mit der joe cell? :-) http://www.sdsefi.com/techtheo.htm "The '70s saw the introduction of the excellent L Jetronic system and licensed spinoffs built in other countries. Emission regulations and the energy crisis in the mid '70s caused most car manufacturers to consider the switch to EFI. Nissan, Toyota and BMW notably equipped almost all of their higher end models with the Bosch system by 1982. Many German and American car companies were slow to embrace EFI for reasons unknown. By 1985, the first digital systems were in widespread use worldwide by most manufacturers to some degree and the days of the carburetor were numbered. Today, over 95% of all cars produced are EFI equipped. EFI is certainly not new, as its roots were firmly established over 30 years ago." Basic Theory "EFI uses solenoid valves called injectors to meter fuel delivery. Most vehicles today use 1 injector per cylinder. When the solenoid is energized, fuel sprays out into the valve port. Fuel is delivered to the injector by a high pressure electric pump at around 40 psi. Fuel delivery is controlled by the injectors which are cycled by the computer. The computer produces a signal to open the injectors for a certain length of time depending on engine conditions relayed by sensors. The longer that the injector is open, the more fuel is injected. As engine load and rpm are increased, the injector open times are increased to match increasing airflow. This computer output signal is called the injector pulse width. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel is injected." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/1/2006 7:45:39 PM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Posted earlier: > > IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring. > I meant it may not need to produce O, OH, and H, H2 or H3O, but, the electrolysis heat from the battery may provide the heat for vaporizing the water, SATURATED STEAM TABLE CALCULATOR: (and more) http://www.connel.com/cgi-bin/steam.pl Why rack your brain? :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/1/2006 6:19:57 PM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS. IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring. USE THIS PSYCH CHART: http://www.linric.com/webpsysi.htm The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 -90.67 F Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K Conversion calculators. http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A bit of a problem mit der joe cell?  :-)
 
 
"The '70s saw the introduction of the excellent L Jetronic system and licensed spinoffs built in other countries. Emission regulations and the energy crisis in the mid '70s caused most car manufacturers to consider the switch to EFI. Nissan, Toyota and BMW notably equipped almost all of their higher end models with the Bosch system by 1982.
Many German and American car companies were slow to embrace EFI for reasons unknown. By 1985, the first digital systems were in widespread use worldwide by most manufacturers to some degree and the days of the carburetor were numbered. Today, over 95% of all cars produced are EFI equipped. EFI is certainly not new, as its roots were firmly established over 30 years ago."
 
Basic Theory

"EFI uses solenoid valves called injectors to meter fuel delivery. Most vehicles today use 1 injector per cylinder. When the solenoid is energized, fuel sprays out into the valve port. Fuel is delivered to the injector by a high pressure electric pump at around 40 psi. Fuel delivery is controlled by the injectors which are cycled by the computer. The computer produces a signal to open the injectors for a certain length of time depending on engine conditions relayed by sensors. The longer that the injector is open, the more fuel is injected. As engine load and rpm are increased, the injector open times are increased to match increasing airflow. This computer output signal is called the injector pulse width. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel is injected."

 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/2006 7:45:39 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

Posted earlier:
>
> IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring.
>
I meant it may not need to produce O, OH, and H, H2 or H3O,
but, the electrolysis heat from the battery may provide the heat
for vaporizing the water,
 
SATURATED STEAM TABLE CALCULATOR:  (and more)
 
 
Why rack your brain?   :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/2006 6:19:57 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

Let's find out if nature's thermodynamics allows an engine
to run on damp air created by using the evaporative cooling
effect (Venturi aspiration on water) on the incoming air, and
using the 4 cycle engine to optimize the INVERSION TEMPERATURE
so that during the power stroke the EXPANDING GAS HEATS.
IOW. The "Joe Cell" may turn out to be a Red Herring.
 
USE THIS PSYCH CHART:
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas                 Inversion Temp Deg K
Space                     0-3
Helium                    51
Hydrogen              205   -90.67 F
Neon                      242
Nitrogen                621     658.13 F
Argon                     723     841.73 F
Krypton                  727
Oxygen                  893     1147.73
Xenon                  1427
 
Zero Deg C  =     273 Deg K
Zero Deg F  =     255 Deg K
 
Conversion calculators.
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 04:32:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42BWS6x018655; Tue, 2 May 2006 04:32:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42BWQ98018633; Tue, 2 May 2006 04:32:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 04:32:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tJP3yxiNiWF+IV7dEUp007vuWXDrLjduncLew/qw62cVAacw65hFxzkj4FrdxmlZ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006522113210587@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 05:32:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c192a7251de2439964bf2b3c9e6a6f81350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.231 Resent-Message-ID: <1lDMC.A.-iE.KN0VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Making a Mountain out of a Molehill? :-) http://www.tiscover.at/at/guide/50116at,en,SCH1/objectId,ACC296274at,curr,EUR,season,at1,selectedEntry,pict/pict.html "In a mountain scenery, yet close to the Wolfgangsee lake! The Kleefeld Alpine inn is at about 2.5 km from the Wolfgangsee lake at 700 m altitude. Amidst mountain peaks, Alpine pastures and forests, located on a south-facing sheltered from the wind, you can enjoy unspoilt nature. Hikes to the lakeside or along steep ways up to the Sparber mountain, it´s your choice! " Anybody feel like Yodeling. :-) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Making a Mountain out of a Molehill?  :-)
 
 
"In a mountain scenery, yet close to the Wolfgangsee lake!
The Kleefeld Alpine inn is at about 2.5 km from the Wolfgangsee lake at 700 m altitude. Amidst mountain peaks, Alpine pastures and forests, located on a south-facing sheltered from the wind, you can enjoy unspoilt nature. Hikes to the lakeside or along steep ways up to the Sparber mountain, it´s your choice! "
 
Anybody feel like Yodeling.  :-)

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 07:33:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42EXSDO026214; Tue, 2 May 2006 07:33:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42EXPmE026184; Tue, 2 May 2006 07:33:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 07:33:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c66df5$5e3bcbb0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: Macho WIMP ? Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 07:33:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of "dark energy" coming down from the stars... Perhaps WIMPS have been manufactured on earth for some time, under a different name? EVOs as WIMPs by Ken Shoulders © 2006 EVOs appear as clusters of electrons capable of suppressing their expressed charge and mass by a measured factor of more than 1 billion below that of the same number of individual electrons. Even in their presently undeveloped state, they could qualify for what is known in astronomy as WIMPs or Weakly Interacting Massive Particles and thought by some to be one source of Dark Matter. Down to the lowest level of expressed charge measured thus far, the black or non-interactive state of EVOs can be refreshed to the white level of expressed charge and mass by application of short-term pulses of electric field. This behavior raises the hope of "awakening" the black state of an EVO from an even deeper stage of charge and mass suppression, perhaps obtained naturally as a WIMP by a long residence in the solitude of space. This remarkable behavior requires reevaluation of current notions of what charge and mass really are, especially in such a highly organized state the EVO is apparently adorned in. In any event, this state of low expressed charge provides low interactivity with normal, charged matter-a Hallmark of both EVOs and WIMPs. While considering this gross obfuscation of charge and mass by EVOs, using easily available techniques, one might also consider some cosmic-ray-like events as being the gradual dishevelment of an energetic EVO while entering our atmosphere with the ease and penetrability of a WIMP. Only simple methods of excitation have been applied so far and it is likely that awakening EVOs from a very deep state of composure will require new methods not yet envisaged. If such methods are found by following the present techniques to a much more stable level of EVO existence, then the detection and energetic utilization of the cosmic WIMPs we are bathed in becomes possible and a new and powerful energy source will be found. This extension of technology leads to more interesting and efficient interaction mechanisms by working with artificial, laboratory produced EVOs deep in a region of stability masquerading as WIMPs. Existing EVOs have very low expressed charge and mass; there are many effective electron-like structures contained within their bounds and they are very energetic when aroused. These parameters qualify them as provisional WIMPs and heralds of dark matter until the real one come along. References [1] K.R. Shoulders, EV--A Tale of Discovery, Austin, TX, 1987. A historical sketch of early EV works having: 246 pages, 153 photos and drawings, 13 references. Available from the author at: 365 Warren Dr., Ukiah, CA 95482, (707) 467-9935, e-mail at: krscfs@svn.net [2] U.S. Patents on EV technology by K. R. Shoulders. 5,018,180 (1991) - 5,054,046 (1991) 5,054,047 (1991) - 5,123,039 (1992), and 5,148,461 (1992). [3] For general references on EVO technology, downloads are available at: www.svn.net/krscfs/. > No idea-wimps here... that's for sure. But - doesn't the > reported (nearly-negative) energy profile of reputed orgone fit > the MACHO just as well? > > In astrophysics, WIMPs (weakly interacting massive particles) > are hypothetical particles serving as a possible solution to the > dark matter problem. If the astrophysicists have this kind of > leeway to invent new particles, then the more well-ground on Vo > can play that game to. > > These particles interact through the weak nuclear force and > gravity, and possibly through other interactions no stronger > than the weak force. Because they do not interact with > electromagnetism they cannot be seen directly, and because they > do not interact with the strong nuclear force they do not react > strongly with atomic nuclei. > > There seem to be two refinements that can be added to that - if > we do get some glimpse of them on earth, based on the anecdotal > details available. > > Actually nothing can fit the anecdotal details precisely, > because they are in conflict with each other. The same problems > were seen in the early days of LENR. > > The two refinements are - WIMPs are a relic of > compression/decompression where some electrical charge is > present. > > WIMPs may be transitory and on "decay" leave an implosion > effect. > > As to the large estimated mass, compared to standard particles - > the WIMP may not even be a single particle but a collective > remnant of many real particles. > > Consider it as a "shadow" or as a "relic of displacement" ... > kind of like a short-physical-memory (I can identify with that > more-and-more, every advancing year) > > Because of lack of interaction with normal matter, they would be > dark and invisible through normal electromagnetic observations. > Because of their large "former" mass, transience, and rapid > decay, they would be relatively slow moving and therefore cold. > > Other similar candidates for "cold dark (matter)" which > essentially what orgone is - in the MACHO (MAssive Compact Halo > Object). This name was deliberately chosen for contrast, > certainly by jealous astrophysicists suffering from > long-telescope envy ;-) > > Vo's... however... being real men, and this orgone being an > unreal starting point for anything serious, well ... we might as > well go macho... > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 07:54:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42EsXIT004873; Tue, 2 May 2006 07:54:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42EsVpR004847; Tue, 2 May 2006 07:54:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 07:54:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502105326.03da2de8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 10:54:22 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: BARC Studies In Cold Fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New LENR-CANR Special Collection: Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) Studies in Cold Fusion. http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/BARC.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 08:08:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42F8GOM011694; Tue, 2 May 2006 08:08:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42F8FE3011681; Tue, 2 May 2006 08:08:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:08:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <445775B8.5000207@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 10:07:36 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Chukanov updates his website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kiril Chukanov wrote: > Dear Thomas, > > Please visit my web-site: www.chukanovenergy.com > What’s new. > > Best regards, > > Kiril Chukanov > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 09:26:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42GPjal029771; Tue, 2 May 2006 09:25:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42GPidN029749; Tue, 2 May 2006 09:25:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 09:25:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502122527.03d206b0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502122334.03ec2538@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:25:33 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Paper about Schwinger and cold fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9kLHnD.A.xQH.Hg4VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://samjshah.bol.ucla.edu/Schwinger.pdf A letter from Schwinger to the Physical Review Letters is quoted: "With one possible exception, the reviewers of my Letter have come close to, but not equaled, to arrogant stupidity of an earlier PR reviewer, who wrote: 'I have not read this paper, but it must be wrong.' What, pray, in my 55 years of not unsuccessful research justified such contempt? I submit that giving anonymity to narrow minded specialists grants them a license to kill. I want no more of this. Please inform whoever might be interested that I resign as a Member and Fellow of the APS [American Physical Society]. You will, of course, return the copyright agreement that I signed; all rights now revert to me. Incidentally, the PACS entry (1987) 11.10 Mn can be deleted. There will be no further occasion to use it. Schwinger." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 10:01:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42H14Hb020904; Tue, 2 May 2006 10:01:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42H13kE020868; Tue, 2 May 2006 10:01:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:01:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:01:01 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Thread-Index: AcZuCf1cOk21xmDLSUqtmxeWIcNEIg== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2006 17:00:59.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCABDB00:01C66E09] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42H0xsS020721 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is the title of an editorial in the May 2006 copy of Evaluation Engineering magazine, page 6. Some quotes: "..... Altair Nanotechnologies, a supplier of advanced nanomaterials, has developed a lithium-ion battery that could enable an electric vehicle to perfom equally as well as a conventional car. To prove the technology, Altair is partnering with Boshart Engineering to incorporate the new battery design into a prototype electric vehicle and begin road testing by year-end" " ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes" "...the new batteries will sport three times more power and be able to be recharged 20,000 times instead of 750 for existing ones." The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change everything from global warming to Arab governments. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 10:47:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42Hks7C017537; Tue, 2 May 2006 10:46:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42Hkoqu017412; Tue, 2 May 2006 10:46:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:46:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:46:44 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Precessional Work Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a chance to poo-poo it. Thanks to Beene and Grimer for the inspiration. Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction and windage. It is anchored at the base axle. The top axle is attached to a point on the edge of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to the precession of the gyroscope. If the wheel turns another axle which turns a generator, you have just made a device which converts gravity to electricity. N'est-ce pas? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 11:11:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42IBCkP000620; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:11:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42IBAC5000592; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:11:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:11:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502135935.03e6ca60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:10:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0Ml37.A.MJ.9C6VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change >everything from global warming to Arab governments. This one may be too good! I hope it does not solve so many problems that it discourages research into cold fusion. In the history of technology, there are many examples of machines that worked so well, for so long, they ended up blocking the development of better technology. Three important modern examples are the internal combustion engine, IBM PC architecture, and Microsoft Windows. They are obsolete, but they have so much "developmental momentum" behind them, they keep improving just enough to remain commercially viable and prevent effective competition. If we were to start over from scratch today, no one would select these technologies, but you never start over from scratch. Human institutions and technology are strongly influenced by contingency and incumbency, just as biological evolution is. (This is not surprising, since our institutions and technology are a direct result of evolution; they are governed by it as much as our endocrine system is. They tend to borrow the same mechanisms and operate along the same lines.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 11:28:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42IRfZj010257; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:27:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42IRcau010229; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:27:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:27:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nHdXNa1z3Mue7oOPgp1bIWKBT1IO5HVllF0u56NWiqXa34ROIsf8dUBY9tYx94E6syhX9OewetQUe5RS3DWhYKCwlpoZFMs3gv4Tw3IH07Mw179z7+HRZq+2NaGl4/8s4b/tWsXDdayH7oFUyMaPY2O3zJ9n73/EPRF/QMkvbrw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:18:47 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Precessional Work In-Reply-To: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30365_19670204.1146593927983" References: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30365_19670204.1146593927983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline sounds great. now, where do we get a zero friction bearing? On 5/2/06, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a chance to poo-poo it. > Thanks to Beene and Grimer for the inspiration. > > Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction and windage. It is > anchored at the base axle. The top axle is attached to a point on the > edge of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to the precession of > the gyroscope. If the wheel turns another axle which turns a > generator, you have just made a device which converts gravity to > electricity. > > N'est-ce pas? > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_30365_19670204.1146593927983 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline sounds great.  now, where do we get a zero friction bearing?




--= =20
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my l= ife to make it possible for you to continue to write"  Volta= ire=20 ------=_Part_30365_19670204.1146593927983-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 11:32:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42IW73e013455; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:32:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42IW5KO013424; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:32:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:32:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c66e16$b14039b0$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060502135935.03e6ca60@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:31:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >The Really Good Battery: the one invention that will change everything >from global warming to Arab governments.>> Chris, be just a bit careful about fully believing all that Altair nanotechnologies say. They have a bit of a history of exaggerating the significance of what they are doing but they seem to be becoming a bit more respectable these days (they started out as a Canadian registered mining company - take from that what you will...) Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 11:35:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42IZTsC016670; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:35:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42IZQOF016628; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:35:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Processional Work Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:35:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Will this gyroscope do...? http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/lithos/VIP_Lithos-5.pdf Also, isn't that converting rotational potential to electricity? Gravity is not responsible for procession... yes? -john -----Original Message----- From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net [mailto:hohlrauml6d@netscape.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:47 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Precessional Work I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a chance to poo-poo it. Thanks to Beene and Grimer for the inspiration. Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction and windage. It is anchored at the base axle. The top axle is attached to a point on the edge of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to the precession of the gyroscope. If the wheel turns another axle which turns a generator, you have just made a device which converts gravity to electricity. N'est-ce pas? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 11:47:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42IkrVh023353; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:46:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42IkpR4023335; Tue, 2 May 2006 11:46:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:46:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:46:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Precessional Work In-reply-to: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-ToAIC.A.isF.bk6VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a chance to poo-poo it. > Thanks to Beene and Grimer for the inspiration. > > Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction and windage. It is > anchored at the base axle. The top axle is attached to a point on the > edge of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to the precession of > the gyroscope. If the wheel turns another axle which turns a > generator, you have just made a device which converts gravity to > electricity. > > N'est-ce pas? > > Terry It would work for a while. However, even without a source of friction anywhere in the system including the generator, the energy of precession would diminish over time since this energy is consumed as work to turn the parts of the generator. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 12:29:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42JSolO015742; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:28:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42JSnY0015720; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:28:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:28:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 15:28:50 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83C35C64C398A-28B8-9DED@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: Precessional Work Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42JSk34015676 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen sounds great.  now, where do we get a zero friction bearing? <><><><><> At the Ideal Fizzix store. The actual gedanken "precessed" from a discussion on electron spin precession. :-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 12:49:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42Jn5FK028915; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:49:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42JmwTu028815; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:48:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 15:48:58 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <8cWjJB.A.4BH.pe7VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris " ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight minutes" <><><><><><><> Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous 15,625 Amps? Buy copper futures! Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 12:49:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42JnBe0028962; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:49:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42Jn7tw028935; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060502194858495.791128800084@mwinf3014.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060502194900.00b8d050@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 20:49:00 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Precessional Work Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:46 pm 02/05/2006 -0400, Terry wrote: > I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a > chance to poo-poo it. Thanks to Beene and Grimer > for the inspiration. > > Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction > and windage. It is anchored at the base axle. > The top axle is attached to a point on the edge > of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to > the precession of the gyroscope. If the wheel > turns another axle which turns a generator, you > have just made a device which converts gravity to > electricity. > > N'est-ce pas? > > Terry The following article by Dr.Harold Aspden, http://www.energyscience.org.uk/notes/rn9712.htm is relevance to this since if some of the downward force of the gravitational wind is being bled off at right angles then there will be a reduction in the weight of the gyro. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 12:58:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42JwfOH003299; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:58:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42JwdXY003278; Tue, 2 May 2006 12:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:58:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.0 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <000801c66e22$c74bb9d0$e2027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:58:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No ! Terry, Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, The great and terrible wizard of oz can solve any problem. You just shot down a sure fire IPO. Or as the wicked witch of the west said... you destroyed my beautiful wickedness.. I hate you and your dog toto too!!. Richard > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zell, Chris > > " ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight > minutes" > > <><><><><><><> > > Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . > > 500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin > > 30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous > > 15,625 Amps? > > Buy copper futures! > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 13:09:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42K8Yrv008892; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:08:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42K8WiP008867; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:08:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060502200829807.C50251C00095@mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060502200831.00ba3494@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 21:08:31 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:48 pm 02/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Zell, Chris > > " ... Recharging the new lithium-ion battery only takes six to eight >minutes" > ><><><><><><><> > >Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . > >500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin > >30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous > >15,625 Amps? > >Buy copper futures! > >Terry Presumably one would have two battery packs. One on slow charge and one in use. In garages you would drop one pack and pick up another. A bit like using bottled gas. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 13:43:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42KP7EB021300; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:25:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42KP4Aa021254; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:25:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:25:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502161219.03d4f998@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 16:24:39 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: >Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . > >500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin > >30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous > >15,625 Amps? > >Buy copper futures! Yup. We have discussed that here before. Various solutions have been floated, such as swapping the battery pack (as Fred just mentioned) or using a large pack of batteries at the charging station. Actually, if you are going to swap a battery pack you might as well use one of today's slow charge batteries. Still, it would be a big advantage to be able to recharge at the highest amperage your house can support. As quickly as possible, in other words. Even a rapid partial recharge would be convenient. If you had to drive 5 miles round trip to the grocery store but your battery was almost dead, it would be great to quickly recharge 1/6th before setting off. I know this would be convenient based on my experience riding the electric bicycle. I think this battery would have immediate value in other ways: In hybrid vehicles, reducing the need for a capacitor. (I assume they use one?) For things like cell phones and electrically powered lawn clippers and mowers. It would be great for my electric bicycle! There are thousands of electric bicycles and scooters in Beijing, so this could be a big help. Chris has listed many other ways a good battery would help. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 13:54:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42KsPLj006999; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:54:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42KsN1l006961; Tue, 2 May 2006 13:54:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:54:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 16:54:19 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83C41B7A2D55E-28B8-A0F2@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <000801c66e22$c74bb9d0$e2027841@xptower> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <000801c66e22$c74bb9d0$e2027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.71 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42KsGnD006869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay No ! Terry, Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, The great and terrible wizard of oz can solve any problem.    You just shot down a sure fire IPO.  Or as the wicked witch of the west said... you destroyed my beautiful wickedness.. I hate you and your dog toto too!!.  <><><><><><> Okay, here's the ruby slippers. I have 100 A 240 v service into my home. It can deliver 24 kW instantaneous. Using all my capacity, I can charge a 500 kWHr bettery in a little less than 21 hours. Screw the air conditioning. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 14:04:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42L46qW012433; Tue, 2 May 2006 14:04:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42L439S012399; Tue, 2 May 2006 14:04:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:04:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Another Depolymerization Claim Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:04:00 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC192A1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Another Depolymerization Claim Thread-Index: AcZuK+8czQJUpjFLRtq7oJ/Tv0ZVIQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2006 21:04:01.0398 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFE3F160:01C66E2B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42L41ks012363 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb379366.htm The choice: risk air pollution with depoly schemes or risk water pollution by continuing to bury refuse. Still, it's a step forward. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 14:05:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42L5ZXh013640; Tue, 2 May 2006 14:05:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42L5YaK013622; Tue, 2 May 2006 14:05:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:05:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502165541.03d07828@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 17:05:17 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060502161219.03d4f998@mindspring.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060502161219.03d4f998@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Even a rapid partial recharge would be convenient. If you had to >drive 5 miles round trip to the grocery store but your battery was >almost dead, it would be great to quickly recharge 1/6th before setting off. Imagine this scenario. You hop in the car to go grocery shopping. You press the start button and a flashing red light on the dashboard tells you the battery is almost out. With a standard battery you say: "Woops. We need a partial recharge. Let us reschedule an hour from now. How annoying!" With a rapid recharge battery: "Woops. We better plug in for 5 minutes. Let's make a shopping list." As I said, I have experienced this kind of thing with the electric bicycle, which recharges much slower than it discharges. I can easily travel 4 miles in 15 minutes (16 mph), but before I leave I may need to wait an hour for an exhausted battery to charge up enough. 16 mph, by the way, is plenty fast for urban transportation. A lot of urban drivers wish they could keep up with that. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 15:15:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42MFLs8017109; Tue, 2 May 2006 15:15:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42MFK2Z017086; Tue, 2 May 2006 15:15:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:15:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 08:15:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 2 May 2006 22:15:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42MF9RS017006 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 02 May 2006 15:48:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. However an ICE probably uses on average no better than 20% of this, hence for the purposes of comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored in the bettery. At 24 kW mentioned in another post, total recharge is accomplished in 4.7 hours. IOW during the early hours of the morning while you sleep...and you start each day with a full "gas tank", which certainly isn't the case currently (no pun intended). Perhaps more to the point, since cruising requires less than 24 kW of power, one needs to recharge less hours each day than one drives. A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would be recharging time = driving time. >Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . > >500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin > >30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous > >15,625 Amps? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 15:51:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42Mo3Dx001433; Tue, 2 May 2006 15:51:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42Meq1O030034; Tue, 2 May 2006 15:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:40:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Precessional Work Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 08:40:32 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7gnf525m44i2c93fcqhti9if0fh7dtdjc7@4ax.com> References: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 2 May 2006 22:40:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k42MeakP029984 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 02 May 2006 13:46:44 -0400: Hi, I predict that the wheel at the top will not turn, and the gyro will not preces at all. This is because when a real gyro precesses in a gravitational field, it also falls to a slight extent in the field. Being, in this case, attached to a wheel at the top prevents this slight downward movement, and hence also the precession. >I posted this elsewhere; but, Vorts deserve a chance to poo-poo it. >Thanks to Beene and Grimer for the inspiration. > >Imagine a gyroscope with zero bearing friction and windage. It is >anchored at the base axle. The top axle is attached to a point on the >edge of a wheel. The wheel will rotate slowly due to the precession of >the gyroscope. If the wheel turns another axle which turns a >generator, you have just made a device which converts gravity to >electricity. > >N'est-ce pas? > >Terry >___________________________________________________ >Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >http://mail.netscape.com Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 16:13:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42NCsVM013866; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:12:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42NCnTt013819; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:12:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060502231245507.7BDD51C00083@mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060502231247.00b5bfd4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 00:12:47 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Precessional Work Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:40 am 03/05/2006 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 02 May >2006 13:46:44 -0400: >Hi, > >I predict that the wheel at the top will not turn, and the gyro >will not preces at all. This is because when a real gyro precesses >in a gravitational field, it also falls to a slight extent in the >field. Being, in this case, attached to a wheel at the top >prevents this slight downward movement, and hence also the >precession. Spoilsport. ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 16:16:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42NFdxt015292; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:15:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42NFb3V015273; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:15:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:15:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 19:15:40 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83C5576E02D36-D50-78FC@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.73 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. <><><><><><> Yeah, mate; but, that isn't an American SUV. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 16:44:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k42NiKZZ030835; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:44:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k42NiHPp030797; Tue, 2 May 2006 16:44:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:44:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 01:44:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, your calculation is right: we don't need 500 kWh stored in the battery, but only 100 kWh. Even 50kWh would be enough for most purposes (the EEstor "battery" stores 52kWh). You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is not true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at the filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. The alternative is battery swapping as was mentioned, but this may not be very practical: batteries are heavy and bulky, not necessarily easy to access, and cost a lot so one may be reluctant to swap a brand new battery pack with one in an unknown state. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 12:15 AM Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" > In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 02 May > 2006 15:48:58 -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > > My car has a 40 L gas tank (only 1500 cc engine). At 14 kWh/kg for > gasoline that equates to 420 kWh. However an ICE probably uses on > average no better than 20% of this, hence for the purposes of > comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much > more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored > in the bettery. > > At 24 kW mentioned in another post, total recharge is accomplished > in 4.7 hours. > IOW during the early hours of the morning while you sleep...and > you start each day with a full "gas tank", which certainly isn't > the case currently (no pun intended). Perhaps more to the point, > since cruising requires less than 24 kW of power, one needs to > recharge less hours each day than one drives. > A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would > be recharging time = driving time. > >>Hmmm, to deliver 500 kWhr in 8 minutes at 240 V . . . >> >>500 kWhr x 60 = 30 MWmin >> >>30 MWmin / 8 min = 3.75 MW instantaneous >> >>15,625 Amps? > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 17:10:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k430A1td012140; Tue, 2 May 2006 17:10:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43020fQ007910; Tue, 2 May 2006 17:02:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 17:02:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=RCdn96+mDwssxACmu0SIWRxksePNjd/J1kpZwamL0K85WgLhOcRBLAvGv3d1VQIY; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <31471355.1146614505476.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 20:01:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ccf8dac7433c7f495a94752a02bef4492a75963a9c2eb9467350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.50 Resent-Message-ID: <4qQlxC.A.a7B.3L_VEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes: >comparison, we get 84 kWh. Since electrical systems can be much >more efficient, let's say 75%, we would only need 112 kWh stored >in the bettery. It is 60% from power mains to "vehicle propulsion" with "current technology" circa 1990. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf I'll bet it is 70% today; see exhibit A3. Regenerative braking is a big plus. >A simple rule of thumb, taking inefficiencies into account would >be recharging time = driving time. The electric bicycle with lead-acid batteries does not meet this test. However, there are now better batteries and specially made chargers that can speed things up. A bicycle is the most efficient means of transportation on earth (better than any other machine or animal), so you can see this charger is not adequate. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 18:37:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k431b5iL024706; Tue, 2 May 2006 18:37:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k431b3V9024682; Tue, 2 May 2006 18:37:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 18:37:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QKL/lprACMWRl4zx2gvu5duklyUUoPgZj0Hd+g0WcnlJqr6tLzWD4qTfzApCENI4; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200653313655882@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:36:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d6705d20c703def96afd9904a3011bce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.60 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If the "tail wags the dog" concept of the motion of the electron cloud causing the atoms-molecules to erratically move about (which apparently is the foundation of Avogadro's Law) holds, and add that to the concept of low pressure of a soft vacuum allowing atoms-molecules to literally expand as in the Joe Cell. one might conclude that a water "Vacuum Expander" tank would replace the Joe Cell. A pool of water in a used refrigerant or propane tank with a hose to the intake manifold with some gas from a small propane torch (or ether spray) let into the air intake for a "Pilot Fuel". In the cylinder the atoms-molecules shrink normal size, giving off energy. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If the "tail wags the dog" concept of the motion
of the electron cloud causing the atoms-molecules
to erratically move about (which apparently is the foundation
of Avogadro's Law) holds, and add that to the concept of
low pressure of a soft vacuum allowing atoms-molecules
to literally expand as in the Joe Cell. one might conclude
that a water "Vacuum Expander" tank would
replace the Joe Cell.
A pool of water in a used refrigerant  or propane tank with a hose to the intake manifold
with some gas from a small propane torch (or ether spray) let into the air
intake for a "Pilot Fuel".
In the cylinder the atoms-molecules shrink normal size, giving
off energy.
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 22:00:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k434xvRo026441; Tue, 2 May 2006 21:59:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k434xoKS026364; Tue, 2 May 2006 21:59:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 21:59:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 14:59:39 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <55eg5292ed89hjjrjjat28s5ep61r795rs@4ax.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <8C83C5576E02D36-D50-78FC@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83C5576E02D36-D50-78FC@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 May 2006 04:59:39 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k434xflC026295 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 02 May 2006 19:15:40 -0400: Hi, [snip] > >Yeah, mate; but, that isn't an American SUV. SUV's are a passing fad. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 22:08:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4358GJJ030737; Tue, 2 May 2006 22:08:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4358Eq1030712; Tue, 2 May 2006 22:08:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 22:08:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 15:08:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 May 2006 05:08:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4358AHh030680 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 01:44:02 +0200: Hi, [snip] >You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is not >true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at the >filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. [snip] Keep the ICE vehicles for long trips, and use the electric vehicle for the daily commute. Most km's are traveled during the daily commute anyway, so overall the savings would still be huge. (Most US households are "two car families" (at least) anyway). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 2 22:38:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k435cbIR011208; Tue, 2 May 2006 22:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k435cWBw011166; Tue, 2 May 2006 22:38:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 22:38:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chukanov updates his website Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 15:38:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <445775B8.5000207@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <445775B8.5000207@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 May 2006 05:38:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k435cTRF011135 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 02 May 2006 10:07:36 -0500: Hi, Has anyone on the list read any of these books? >Kiril Chukanov wrote: > >> Dear Thomas, >> >> Please visit my web-site: www.chukanovenergy.com >> What’s new. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 01:19:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k438IpkT018692; Wed, 3 May 2006 01:18:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k438InH5018680; Wed, 3 May 2006 01:18:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 01:18:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until we have fast recharge. We won't have "The Really Good Battery" as Chris calls it until we have fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 01:44:02 > +0200: > Hi, > [snip] >>You're also right that a few hours recharge is fine at home, but this is >>not >>true on the road, where you will be happy not to spend several hours at >>the >>filling station, that's where fast recharge ability shines. > [snip] > Keep the ICE vehicles for long trips, and use the electric vehicle > for the daily commute. Most km's are traveled during the daily > commute anyway, so overall the savings would still be huge. > > (Most US households are "two car families" (at least) anyway). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 03:08:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43A7mB6031291; Wed, 3 May 2006 03:07:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43A7kKe031278; Wed, 3 May 2006 03:07:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 03:07:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fcG3i40A3LQSIrKASOiCOACxL9P7SKMvGqsJoqGM0Puad+G/LYft3ut0Kry41U5w; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200653310732912@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 04:07:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407ec90b50d2efdcececf8f1ea62956411350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.189 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Water powered cars/ inventors. Andriah Puharich Archie blue Bob Boyce Carl Cella Charles H. Garrett Daniel Dingel Hector Pierre Vaes Nakamatsu Yoshiro Sam Leslie Leach Stanley Meyer Steven Horvarth The Joe Cell. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/2/2006 7:38:05 PM Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone If the "tail wags the dog" concept of the motion of the electron cloud causing the atoms-molecules to erratically move about (which apparently is the foundation of Avogadro's Law) holds, and add that to the concept of low pressure of a soft vacuum allowing atoms-molecules to literally expand as in the Joe Cell. one might conclude that a water "Vacuum Expander" tank would replace the Joe Cell. A pool of water in a used refrigerant or propane tank with a hose to the intake manifold with some gas from a small propane torch (or ether spray) let into the air intake for a "Pilot Fuel". In the cylinder the atoms-molecules shrink normal size, giving off energy. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Water powered cars/ inventors.
Andriah Puharich
Archie blue
Bob Boyce
Carl Cella
Charles H. Garrett
Daniel Dingel
Hector Pierre Vaes
Nakamatsu Yoshiro
Sam Leslie Leach
Stanley Meyer
Steven Horvarth
The Joe Cell.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/2/2006 7:38:05 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrino orgone

If the "tail wags the dog" concept of the motion
of the electron cloud causing the atoms-molecules
to erratically move about (which apparently is the foundation
of Avogadro's Law) holds, and add that to the concept of
low pressure of a soft vacuum allowing atoms-molecules
to literally expand as in the Joe Cell. one might conclude
that a water "Vacuum Expander" tank would
replace the Joe Cell.
A pool of water in a used refrigerant  or propane tank with a hose to the intake manifold
with some gas from a small propane torch (or ether spray) let into the air
intake for a "Pilot Fuel".
In the cylinder the atoms-molecules shrink normal size, giving
off energy.
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 04:49:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43BnVga015294; Wed, 3 May 2006 04:49:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43BnT7r015274; Wed, 3 May 2006 04:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 04:49:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:49:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 May 2006 11:49:21 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k43BnMhS015221 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200: Hi, [snip] >My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast recharge >an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your >muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely >electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids until >we have fast recharge. > >We won't have "The Really Good Battery" as Chris calls it until we have fast >recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, >weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies, which isn't a problem, because they are dedicated, and there are proportionally not a lot of them. Private homes don't need such heavy duty facilities because one can afford to take longer to do the recharge. Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The problem you describe also existed when gasoline vehicles were first introduced, and before gas stations became ubiquitous. In fact the introduction of electric vehicles would probably be a lot less stressful than early gasoline was, because people would have the capability to recharge at home. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 05:14:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43CEMmm027389; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:14:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43CEKgg027366; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:14:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 05:14:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WXb5IqkHClHhFvERly102Xx3kfE7D8kwDG/+wq2nHPll2Rzkb0PG/58yTvboKtX6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006533121413780@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beer Powered Engines Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 06:14:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940efe6c95e3ba27f9bb64930df487a712d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.103 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A gallon jug ~half-full of beer connected with a hose to the intake manifold just below the intake butterfly valve (almost closed) should draw in enough ZPE-Cooled Brew Vapor (ZPE-CBV) to get at least coast-to-coast per can. The Ethanol in the beer beats using the battery to electrolyze water for a "pilot fuel". ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A gallon jug ~half-full of beer connected with a hose to the intake
manifold just below the intake butterfly valve (almost closed)
should draw in enough  ZPE-Cooled Brew Vapor  (ZPE-CBV) to get
at least coast-to-coast per can.
 
The Ethanol in the beer beats using the battery to
electrolyze water for a "pilot fuel".
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 05:39:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43Cd8p7011338; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:39:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43Cd5PD011289; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:39:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 05:39:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 08:39:07 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83CC5B4291757-2658-12F88@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <8C83C5576E02D36-D50-78FC@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> <55eg5292ed89hjjrjjat28s5ep61r795rs@4ax.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <55eg5292ed89hjjrjjat28s5ep61r795rs@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk SUV's are a passing fad. <><><><><> Sure are, mate. They're constantly passing me on the highway since I drive 55. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 05:40:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43Ce1B1012051; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:40:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43CagL6009941; Wed, 3 May 2006 05:36:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 05:36:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 08:36:45 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83CC55F8F493B-2658-12F78@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Fwd: Precessional Work Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Walter Faxon To: Terry Sent: Wed, 03 May 2006 00:23:45 -0400 Subject: Precessional Work Hello, Terry. Not to brag but I actually thought of this idea several years ago, though using an unanchored gyroscope. You're mistaken, though; it has nothing to do with gravity. The precession of your device converts the rotation of the earth to electricity. The gyroscope wants to maintain its orientation relative to the "fixed stars"; the earth turns underneath it and the difference in those movements, though slow, has a torque relative to the inertial mass of the gyroscope, which can be much greater than its rest mass. Some of the power generated can be fed back into your machine to keep the gyroscope spun-up. No need for impossibly friction-free bearings. I realized the scheme wasn't practical but had some good feelings about myself for awhile but then -- somehow -- I discovered that there's already a U.S. patent covering this invention! Turns out you need a lot of machinery to get the maximum energy out of the system because putting a load on the gyroscope's precession constantly alters its orientation. Somehow I've screwed up and can't post in vortex so if you want to report my brilliance you can post this yourself. If you do, thanks! -- Walter Faxon ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 06:29:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43DTc4P015070; Wed, 3 May 2006 06:29:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43DTZ2R015037; Wed, 3 May 2006 06:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 06:29:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Eh+or7IAaE7nKX3zUVpinC5wMhNnhs7xztGZLVac9s1har/InOMf/rbRfy99nTGW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006533132926458@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Beer Powered Engines Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 07:29:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f74f48e8c441db3e2298f6e09c9761ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier. > > A gallon jug ~half-full of beer connected with a hose to the intake > manifold just below the intake butterfly valve (almost closed) > should draw in enough ZPE-Cooled Brew Vapor (ZPE-CBV) to get > at least coast-to-coast per can. > > The Ethanol in the beer beats using the battery to > electrolyze water for a "pilot fuel". > This is the suumer blend. the sub-zero weather blend requires 50-50 water Ethanol. If this doesn't pan out, chug-a-lug the Vacuum-Cooled-Brew and you will be; "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier.
>
> A gallon jug ~half-full of beer connected with a hose to the intake
> manifold just below the intake butterfly valve (almost closed)
> should draw in enough  ZPE-Cooled Brew Vapor  (ZPE-CBV) to get
> at least coast-to-coast per can.
>
> The Ethanol in the beer beats using the battery to
> electrolyze water for a "pilot fuel".
>
This is the suumer blend. the sub-zero weather blend
requires 50-50 water Ethanol.
 
If this doesn't pan out, chug-a-lug  the Vacuum-Cooled-Brew
and you  will be; "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes"
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 06:39:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43DcoGX022356; Wed, 3 May 2006 06:38:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43DcnRB022344; Wed, 3 May 2006 06:38:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 06:38:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 08:38:46 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC193EC@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Thread-Index: AcZup7y3x2/i/pFgSRC+OG+IQZsQyAADq40g From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 May 2006 13:38:47.0509 (UTC) FILETIME=[E795B850:01C66EB6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k43Dck6R022302 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Guys, many of us have two ( or more ) cars in our households. So, you can buy a electric car for short trips for wifey and a gasoline or hybrid for longer distances. Better yet, just buy the hybrid and charge it overnight, saving the engine for those long trips to the relatives. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 7:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 10:18:49 +0200: Hi, [snip] >My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to fast >recharge an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source >of power (your >muscles) if your battery is empty on the street, not so for a purely >electric car, this is why the best we can have is ICE-electric hybrids >until we have fast recharge. > >We won't have "The Really Good Battery" as Chris calls it until we have >fast recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, >cost, weight and volume for the required kWh value. [snip] But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power supplies, which isn't a problem, because they are dedicated, and there are proportionally not a lot of them. Private homes don't need such heavy duty facilities because one can afford to take longer to do the recharge. Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, and save. The problem you describe also existed when gasoline vehicles were first introduced, and before gas stations became ubiquitous. In fact the introduction of electric vehicles would probably be a lot less stressful than early gasoline was, because people would have the capability to recharge at home. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 07:12:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43ECOE4010438; Wed, 3 May 2006 07:12:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43ECNmX010422; Wed, 3 May 2006 07:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 07:12:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 10:12:18 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to > fast recharge > >an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power (your > >muscles) Actually this can be challenging for older people, because electric bicycles tend to be heavy. But many things about bicycles are challenging, such as thunderstorms. > >We won't have "The Really Good Battery" as Chris calls it until we > have fast > >recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, > >weight and volume for the required kWh value. >[snip] >But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, >so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a >problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power >supplies . . . I think this would be a problem. Not because of technical limitations, but because of commercial limitations. If people can recharge cars at home conveniently at the same price (or less) than as a charging station, people will seldom use charging stations. So there will be few stations. I expect you would find only a few scattered around at shopping malls or McDonald's. You will have to pay to use them, but the stores will install them mainly as a way to attract customers. Swank office parks may have them. Some swank malls and offices already do have charging stations, in fact. A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power will be stranded. There may be charging stations along major highways, because all drivers will run out there. These cars will need a good warning system for low power conditions. Maybe it could incorporate a GPS and voice saying "you may not have enough power to reach your destination [return home] [reach your office]." I think readers here failed to understand the point I made yesterday about partial recharging. It is a little difficult to imagine how this works unless you have experience using electric vehicles. (I am one of the few people in the U.S. who does.) A 5-minute partial recharge is almost as good as a full charge for many purposes. As I said, if the low charge warning is flashing and you need to go to the grocery store, a five-minute recharge would be fine, whereas a one-hour recharge would be annoying. Many urban trips are short. After you get back from the grocery store, you can fully charge the car at your leisure. We tend to think of refueling as an all or nothing process, because it is a nuisance to go to the gas station, pay with a credit card and so on, but there is no particular need to "fill 'er up" every time with an electric vehicle. (I am assuming the power supply is conveniently located near where you park the car.) >Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely >to be at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging >over night, and save. The price would have to include a premium to cover rent, personnel and equipment. This is why there will be few dedicated charging stations. On the other hand, it would not cost McDonald's much to add one or two chargers to their parking lot. Some people who driving a long distanced in the city will go there only because they need power, and since it is likely to take 15 or 20 minutes even with a fast recharge battery, they are likely to stick around and eat something. McDonald's might limit the amperage to stretch out the visit. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 07:25:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43EPaZ6018552; Wed, 3 May 2006 07:25:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43EPA6W018201; Wed, 3 May 2006 07:25:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 07:25:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c66ebd$567c9f80$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <8C83C27834EE66E-28B8-99B6@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Precessional Work Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:24:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, you may be interested in this toy - the roller ball. I bought one from a local shop. It is a gyroscope in a transparent enclosure. Spinning it up with a string to start it, then holding it and doing a sort of twisty wrist motion, allows the thing to accelerate up to 10,000 rpm when it is very difficult to hold. I did not realise that forced precession of a gyro could "drive" it to go faster - it seems counter intuitive. http://www.invento-hq.com/rb_clas_e.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 10:14:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43HEfI2002688; Wed, 3 May 2006 10:14:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43HEdcM002671; Wed, 3 May 2006 10:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:14:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 19:14:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for the road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is already possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. > A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power > will be stranded. Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to get home or to the next "real" power station. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> >My argument holds in town too Robin. It's OK not to be able to >> fast recharge >> >an electric bicycle because you can switch to another source of power >> >(your >> >muscles) > > Actually this can be challenging for older people, because electric > bicycles tend to be heavy. But many things about bicycles are challenging, > such as thunderstorms. > > >> >We won't have "The Really Good Battery" as Chris calls it until we >> have fast >> >recharge plus other characteristics such as acceptable lifetime, cost, >> >weight and volume for the required kWh value. >>[snip] >>But the new Lithium batteries *do* have fast recharge capability, >>so a quick stopover at a roadside charging station shouldn't be a >>problem. Such charging stations *do* need to have heavy duty power >>supplies . . . > > I think this would be a problem. Not because of technical limitations, but > because of commercial limitations. If people can recharge cars at home > conveniently at the same price (or less) than as a charging station, > people will seldom use charging stations. So there will be few stations. I > expect you would find only a few scattered around at shopping malls or > McDonald's. You will have to pay to use them, but the stores will install > them mainly as a way to attract customers. Swank office parks may have > them. Some swank malls and offices already do have charging stations, in > fact. > > A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power > will be stranded. There may be charging stations along major highways, > because all drivers will run out there. > > These cars will need a good warning system for low power conditions. Maybe > it could incorporate a GPS and voice saying "you may not have enough power > to reach your destination [return home] [reach your office]." > > I think readers here failed to understand the point I made yesterday about > partial recharging. It is a little difficult to imagine how this works > unless you have experience using electric vehicles. (I am one of the few > people in the U.S. who does.) A 5-minute partial recharge is almost as > good as a full charge for many purposes. As I said, if the low charge > warning is flashing and you need to go to the grocery store, a five-minute > recharge would be fine, whereas a one-hour recharge would be annoying. > Many urban trips are short. After you get back from the grocery store, you > can fully charge the car at your leisure. > > We tend to think of refueling as an all or nothing process, because it is > a nuisance to go to the gas station, pay with a credit card and so on, but > there is no particular need to "fill 'er up" every time with an electric > vehicle. (I am assuming the power supply is conveniently located near > where you park the car.) > > >>Furthermore, with the price of energy from a roadside station likely to be >>at a premium, most people will likely opt for home charging over night, >>and save. > > The price would have to include a premium to cover rent, personnel and > equipment. This is why there will be few dedicated charging stations. On > the other hand, it would not cost McDonald's much to add one or two > chargers to their parking lot. Some people who driving a long distanced in > the city will go there only because they need power, and since it is > likely to take 15 or 20 minutes even with a fast recharge battery, they > are likely to stick around and eat something. McDonald's might limit the > amperage to stretch out the visit. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 11:37:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43IbKL3018777; Wed, 3 May 2006 11:37:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43IbIhK018753; Wed, 3 May 2006 11:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:37:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060503140959.03dff738@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 14:37:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7VAjNB.A.5kE.ehPWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >>A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out >>of power will be stranded. > >Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be >ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real >estate compared to gas stations . . . It is a little difficult to imagine how they would pay for themselves, except as a means of attracting customers to places like McDonald's, as I said. (Actually, someone else here suggested that first.) Perhaps that would suffice. I suppose if they were many of the stations at fast food restaurants, shopping mall parking lots, public libraries and the like, a person running low on power might have little trouble finding a place to stop and recharge on the way home. If they were as ubiquitous as bank automatic teller machines (ATMs) there will be little danger of being stranded. The thing is, they would not be used as frequently as ATMs are. Even if you charge a premium of several dollars to recharge at one, I doubt that a stand-alone recharging machine would ever pay for itself. Problems like this have a way of sorting themselves out. Our ancestors would be astounded at how many gas stations there are. When they first became widespread in the 1920s, magazines such as the New Yorker often made fun of the trend. Large capacity rapid-recharge stations on highways and busy urban roads would make tons of money. Perhaps there would be enough of them to avoid problems while traveling around urban areas. If there were one rapid recharge station in every major highway exit in Atlanta, I suppose I could go just about anywhere and be within a few miles of one if the car ran low. As I said, you would want a couple the system with a sophisticated GPS navigation system. Even now, the Prius GPS guidance system can tell you where the nearest gas station or hospital is. If you travel in an electric vehicle and the charge falls to dangerously low levels, the car will warn you and tell you where the nearest charging station is. Or, if you inform car beforehand where you are going, the car might tell you that you will need to recharge along the way, and suggest several alternative recharging station locations and itineraries. This would be particularly useful in the early days when there are not many public recharging stations. The Prius GPS turn-by-turn guidance system is superb, by the way. I have no sense of direction and I get nervous when I am lost (which is nearly always). But thanks to the GPS system I have successfully driven to many new places with aplomb & panache. The computer has a woman's voice. She sounds like a Midwestern schoolteacher with an attitude, who takes no guff from students -- from you, the driver, that is -- although in fact she will take any amount of guff without losing her temper. I rode in a Japanese Toyota recently, in Tokyo, which was equipped with the same kind of GPS system. It also has a woman's voice, but she sounded like a mincing bubblegum-pop high school girl, or one of these women who used to operate the automatic elevators in Japanese department stores. The American voice commands more respect and attention. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 11:57:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43Iv7Ko029847; Wed, 3 May 2006 11:57:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43Iv3e8029825; Wed, 3 May 2006 11:57:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:57:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SUwpyaI6ufyNRoyhGDvgyLEnPecMo/82jalt4Lkkm78tUgec7Qx1wRCVdcnMONLl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006533185650537@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Paschen Curves & Pseudospark Switches Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:56:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94079956a186ff71a510f9626a02b209409350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.105 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Is there something else involving pressure going on here too? http://empl.ksc.nasa.gov/CurrentResearch/Breakdown/Breakdown.htm "Paschen measurements are taken which relate the minimum potential required to spark across a gap between two electrodes. The minimum potential is plotted versus the pressure-distance value for electrodes of a given geometry. For most gases, the potential decreases as the pressure decreases. For CO2, the minimum in the curve happens to be at Mars atmospheric pressures (5-7 mm Hg) for many distances and geometries. However, a very small amount (<0.1%) of mixing gases radically changes the curve, as noted by Leach. Here, we present the first experimental results of a Paschen curve for a Mars gas mixture compared with 100% pure CO2." Thus the electrodes fixed at 0.1 cm apart provided the parallelplate geometry. The chamber was pumped down to 104 mm Hg and backfilled to ~ 50 mm Hg with the atmospheric gas. It was pumped down again to remove residual gases and contaminants. The gases that were used are 100% CO2 and a Mars gas mixture provided by Praxair Inc. that consisted of 95.5% carbon dioxide, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen and 0.07% carbon monoxide. Leach's Curves: http://empl.ksc.nasa.gov/CurrentResearch/Breakdown/Leach.htm Pseudospark Switches: http://users.tm.net/lapointe/Pseudospark_Switches.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Is there something else involving pressure going on here too?
 
 
"Paschen measurements are taken which relate the minimum potential required to spark across a gap between two electrodes. The minimum potential is plotted versus the pressure-distance value for electrodes of a given geometry. For most gases, the potential decreases as the pressure decreases. For CO2, the minimum in the curve happens to be at Mars atmospheric pressures (5-7 mm Hg) for many distances and geometries. However, a very small amount (<0.1%) of mixing gases radically changes the curve, as noted by Leach. Here, we present the first experimental results of a Paschen curve for a Mars gas mixture compared with 100% pure CO2."
 
Thus the electrodes fixed at 0.1 cm apart provided the parallelplate geometry.

The chamber was pumped down to 104 mm Hg and backfilled to ~ 50 mm Hg with the atmospheric gas. It was pumped down again to remove residual gases and contaminants. The gases that were used are 100% CO2 and a Mars gas mixture provided by Praxair Inc. that consisted of 95.5% carbon dioxide, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen and 0.07% carbon monoxide.

 
Leach's Curves:
 
 
Pseudospark Switches:
 

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 15:12:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43MC829007274; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:12:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43MC57w007256; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:12:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:12:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 08:11:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.224] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 May 2006 22:11:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k43MBwGe007194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 19:14:20 +0200: Hi, [snip] >Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for the >road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is already >possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a >lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. > >> A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of power >> will be stranded. > >Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be >ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate >compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to get >home or to the next "real" power station. They will require no real estate at all, and there will be one about every 10-20 meters. Since they will exist in almost every private home and business. IOW if you run low you won't have to go far till you find someone at home willing to make a fast buck by letting you use his private charging station for half an hour or so at an exorbitant price. (...and it will teach you to pay more attention to the fuel gage in future). ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 15:33:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43MWsuA017187; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:32:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43MWrQc017176; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:32:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:32:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <025601c66f01$85c26d80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 00:32:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <9grUCC.A.UME.V-SWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 19:14:20 > +0200: > Hi, > [snip] >>Partial recharging is OK for town use, but if we want full electric for >>the >>road too we do need full and fast recharging, which as Robin said is >>already >>possible with current Lithium batteries but a bit long: 8mn is a hell of a >>lot. 2 or 3mn as claimed by EEstor would be more like it. >> >>> A person driving a pure electric vehicle in the city who runs out of >>> power >>> will be stranded. >> >>Or maybe on the contrary unmanned slow recharging stations will be >>ubiquitous because they require very little investment and real estate >>compared to gas stations, and they will allow one to recharge enough to >>get >>home or to the next "real" power station. > > They will require no real estate at all, and there will be one > about every 10-20 meters. Since they will exist in almost every > private home and business. IOW if you run low you won't have to go > far till you find someone at home willing to make a fast buck by > letting you use his private charging station for half an hour or > so at an exorbitant price. (...and it will teach you to pay more > attention to the fuel gage in future). ;) > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 15:52:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k43MpiNx027280; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k43MpgZf027253; Wed, 3 May 2006 15:51:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:51:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=n5Tr+cKcR6fG+b2C8wnnJbvcresq2aUeWeMwOd2uMCSIm78BfRGKw/fpRvk/OGQ6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006533225137590@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Paschen Curves & Pseudospark Switches Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:51:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94025ef8e8069870cf6787feea1a8123f94350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Notice the P*D minimum for air at the pressure where the Crookes Radiometer works best, Fred http://www.duniway.com/images/pdf/pg/Paschen-Curve.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/3/2006 12:57:42 PM Subject: Re: The Paschen Curves & Pseudospark Switches Is there something else involving pressure going on here too? http://empl.ksc.nasa.gov/CurrentResearch/Breakdown/Breakdown.htm "Paschen measurements are taken which relate the minimum potential required to spark across a gap between two electrodes. The minimum potential is plotted versus the pressure-distance value for electrodes of a given geometry. For most gases, the potential decreases as the pressure decreases. For CO2, the minimum in the curve happens to be at Mars atmospheric pressures (5-7 mm Hg) for many distances and geometries. However, a very small amount (<0.1%) of mixing gases radically changes the curve, as noted by Leach. Here, ! we present the first experimental results of a Paschen curve for a Mars gas mixture compared with 100% pure CO2." Thus the electrodes fixed at 0.1 cm apart provided the parallelplate geometry. The chamber was pumped down to 104 mm Hg and backfilled to ~ 50 mm Hg with the atmospheric gas. It was pumped down again to remove residual gases and contaminants. The gases that were used are 100% CO2 and a Mars gas mixture provided by Praxair Inc. that consisted of 95.5% carbon dioxide, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen and 0.07% carbon monoxide. Leach's Curves: http://empl.ksc.nasa.gov/CurrentResearch/Breakdown/Leach.htm Pseudospark Switches: http://users.tm.net/lapointe/Pseudospark_Switches.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Notice the P*D minimum for air at the pressure where the Crookes Radiometer
works best,
 
Fred
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/3/2006 12:57:42 PM
Subject: Re: The Paschen Curves & Pseudospark Switches

Is there something else involving pressure going on here too?
 
 
"Paschen measurements are taken which relate the minimum potential required to spark across a gap between two electrodes. The minimum potential is plotted versus the pressure-distance value for electrodes of a given geometry. For most gases, the potential decreases as the pressure decreases. For CO2, the minimum in the curve happens to be at Mars atmospheric pressures (5-7 mm Hg) for many distances and geometries. However, a very small amount (<0.1%) of mixing gases radically changes the curve, as noted by Leach. Here, ! we present the first experimental results of a Paschen curve for a Mars gas mixture compared with 100% pure CO2."
 
Thus the electrodes fixed at 0.1 cm apart provided the parallelplate geometry.

The chamber was pumped down to 104 mm Hg and backfilled to ~ 50 mm Hg with the atmospheric gas. It was pumped down again to remove residual gases and contaminants. The gases that were used are 100% CO2 and a Mars gas mixture provided by Praxair Inc. that consisted of 95.5% carbon dioxide, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen and 0.07% carbon monoxide.

 
Leach's Curves:
 
 
Pseudospark Switches:
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 17:20:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k440KikZ001158; Wed, 3 May 2006 17:20:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k440KgEO001143; Wed, 3 May 2006 17:20:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:20:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 20:20:48 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83D27BA3DE1D4-1004-1137D@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <025601c66f01$85c26d80$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <025601c66f01$85c26d80$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k440KeIq001108 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :)  <><><><><> Wall outlet charging: 120 VAC x 15 A x safety factor 0.8 = 1.44 kW instantaneous. @ 15 hp/60 mph => 11.25 kW/60 mph => 0.1875 kw/mph IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take you one mile. Assuming 100% efficiency. I think. Not bad. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 18:40:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k441eaag004573; Wed, 3 May 2006 18:40:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k441eYx7004553; Wed, 3 May 2006 18:40:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 18:40:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:40:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: Study Reconciles Data in Measuring Climate Change To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Study Reconciles Data in Measuring Climate Change By Juliet Eilperin Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, May 3, 2006; Page A03 A government study released yesterday undermines one of the key arguments of climate change skeptics, concluding there is no statistically significant conflict between measures of global warming on the earth's surface and in the atmosphere. For years some global warming critics had pointed to the fact that satellite measurements had recorded very little warming in the lower atmosphere, while surface temperature readings indicated that the earth is heating up. Now the U.S. Climate Change Science Program, an interagency body, has concluded the two data sets match... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/02/AR2006050201 677.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 19:53:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k442qlGB009346; Wed, 3 May 2006 19:52:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k442qjma009319; Wed, 3 May 2006 19:52:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 19:52:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <25d.a777078.318ac677@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:52:39 EDT Subject: Re: Chukanov updates his website To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1146711159" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1146711159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 5/2/2006 11:08:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 temalloy@usfamily.net writes: Kiril Chukanov wrote: > Dear Thomas, > > Please visit my web-site: www.chukanovenergy.com=20 > What=E2=80=99s new. > > Best regards, > > Kiril Chukanov Thanks for this link and the reference to the books on Quantum mechanics:The= =20 Unveiled Secrets of the Primary Substance=20 http://www.chukanovenergy.com/index.php?section=3D35 Best Regards,=20 =20 Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,= =20 Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1146711159 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
In a message dated 5/2/2006 11:08:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy= @usfamily.net writes:
Kiril Chukanov wrote:

> Dear Thomas,=
>
> Please visit my web-site: www.chukanovenergy.com
> &= lt;http://www.chukanovenergy.com/> What=E2=80=99s new.
>
> Be= st regards,
>
> Kiril Chukanov
Thanks for this link and the reference to the books on Quantum mechanic= s:The Unveiled Secrets of the Primary Substance http://www.ch= ukanovenergy.com/index.php?section=3D35
 
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1146711159-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 3 21:39:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k444dk8o024705; Wed, 3 May 2006 21:39:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k444dj9k024697; Wed, 3 May 2006 21:39:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 21:39:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 14:39:41 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <761j5211gbmbm5b2tp88npl1d4doa1ktrp@4ax.com> References: <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <025601c66f01$85c26d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <8C83D27BA3DE1D4-1004-1137D@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83D27BA3DE1D4-1004-1137D@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.224] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 4 May 2006 04:39:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k444dgMh024650 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Wed, 03 May 2006 20:20:48 -0400: Hi, [snip] > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michel Jullian > >Or more likely all that will be needed is somebody willing to lend/rent >you a wall socket as you will probably have an emergency low power >battery charger and an extension cord in the car itself :)  > ><><><><><> > >Wall outlet charging: > >120 VAC x 15 A x safety factor 0.8 = 1.44 kW instantaneous. > >@ 15 hp/60 mph => 11.25 kW/60 mph => 0.1875 kw/mph > >IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take >you one mile. .1855 *kWh / 1.44 kW = 7.8 minutes (not seconds) :( Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 00:09:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4479hfu001342; Thu, 4 May 2006 00:09:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4479gHB001310; Thu, 4 May 2006 00:09:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 00:09:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060504070931802.C3F141C00082@mwinf3007.me.freeserve.com Reply-To: From: "Patrick Vessey" To: Subject: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:11:34 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: <84d3RD.A.SU.1iaWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, The signal/noise ratio on the various Joe Cell groups aint great at the moment, but I thought that vorts may find (some of) the following interesting. There are four files below, recently posted to the Y! JoeCells2 group by Tom Kramer. I asked Tom's permission to repost them here, which he said he'd already done. However, I've had two vort digests since then without seeing them, so who knows... I present Tom's thoughts without further comments. Rgds, Patrick --- snip --- Theories: NO, Muions and Avalanches HI Guys, This post is all about what goes on inside the combustion cylinder of an internal combustion engine running on a Joe Cell. As there is currently no scientific evidence as to what goes on inside and ICE cylinder when charged by a Joe Cell, I submit here several theories of possible reactions: 1. The NO Theory: A chemical reaction 2. The Muion Theory: A nuclear reaction 3. The Avalanche Theory: An electromagnetic reaction 4. The Everything Theory: God Knows?! The starting point is to look first at what is in the cylinder at the time of either implosion or explosion based initially on the spark setting of the distributor. In the cylinder is AIR. Air is made up of gas molecules of nitrogen (70%), oxygen (18%), some water vapor and a bunch of trace elements including inert gases (helium, etc.) and various carbon compounds (CO2, CO, CH4, etc.) all in only 2%. There is also a thin film of oil on the cylinder walls. Nothing more is in the cylinder when the reaction occurs. The cylinder sleeve is normally carbon steel inset into either a cast iron or aluminum block with either a cast iron or aluminum head. The cylinder is cooled by various designs of water jackets. The reaction is initially triggered by the distributor high-voltage DC discharge spark (16Kv-30Kv). When using a Joe Cell this spark is fired 70o-80o BTDC on the compression stroke. The compressed atmospheric gases are about 50% compressed at this stage and some compression heat is thus generated. Further compression occurs until TDC is reached (unless there is an implosion reaction). So the starting point is a steel cylinder filled with atmospheric gases under pressure and surrounded partially by water at which point a HV spark is introduced. 1. The NO Theory: This theory is covered in my first paper in the files section and is based on the possible chemical reactions that could take place in the cylinder. As the principal chemicals are Nitrogen (N2) and Oxygen (O2) gas, there is the possibility of forming the endothermic reaction to create nitrous oxide (NO) or laughing gas, which is highly explosive and could self-ignite on the power stroke. NO can be created using heat and a HV spark from air under pressure and this may result in a small implosion. Thus the chemical NO Theory has both and endothermic implosion followed by a exothermic explosion on the power stroke (which will also absorb heat as the gases expand giving a cold running engine). Is this theory realistic? Maybe, but probably not unless we can get some gas samples tested at various stages of compression and on the power stroke. 2. The Muion Theory: This was a recent post and is quite interesting as it proposes a nuclear reaction theory. I won’t go into the repeat of this post, but I will review salient points. Mu particles are extremely short-lived charged atomic particles that rapidly recombine with just about anything in their immediate environment. They are made naturally by cosmic ray (gamma ray, x-ray, etc.) radiation as these high-energy rays collide with other matter, breaking it up into charged particles that then recombine with other particles or atoms in their immediate vicinity usually within micro-seconds. These reactions can be artificially created but this usually requires very large and expensive electromagnetic accelerators. Not something you can put in your car. There is a possibility of artificial inducement using a strong negative electromagnetic field (as created by a Joe Cell) and then firing a positive charge into such a polarized field, but it is highly doubtful that this would be sufficient to set off a chain reaction of sufficient size to create the implosion needed to suck a piston up. The energy input factors do not seem to be present. 3. The Avalanche Theory: To better understand this theory it is best that you have a read about the Papp Engine (pronounced ‘pop’ in Hungarian) and the works of the Correas with their PAGD/XS technology, particularly the Correas paper comparing the two systems (Google both). Also review Blacklight LLC’s technologies. The Papp Engine runs on a mix of noble gases (primarily helium) only. There is no intake or exhaust. The engine runs based on a plasma electron avalanche that causes an implosion and then an explosion reaction within the noble gas mix. Simplified what happens is that Papp created an environment in which a strong high voltage electromagnetic discharge (a spark plug) occurred on the compression stroke which caused the outer electrons of the inert gases to be temporarily stripped off in an electron avalanche plasma type reaction. This is essentially a ‘cold’ plasma as it is just electrons rapidly fleeing from the positive HV induced spark (Papp used 40Kv in 3 timed discharges per firing). For those familiar with Terroranta’s (Tero) S1r plasma spark videos, this can be clearly seen as an electron plasma discharge that causes a bright flash and implosive very loud BANG! This was demonstrated using polarized water vapor. Papp used bigger electrode charges and inert gases. The Correas use a more subtle low voltage noble gas approach that has less radiation effects. All three approaches use a high frequency discharge as from an ignition coil (something like 60kHz) and couple the HV or LV with a high amp input (S1r’s approach). And the plasma ‘flash’ creates visible light, UV, as well as, alpha, beta, gamma and x-ray radiations. Electron avalanches are a rapid chain reaction, which will dissipate very quickly especially when the electrons reach ground (steel cylinder walls). The reaction, however, leaves the atoms that have lost electrons SMALLER and in dire need of electron replacements. Thus you have an implosive situation followed by an explosive situation (expansion) where the atoms reclaim their missing electrons from cylinder walls (now highly charged negative). This, of course, all happens in micro-seconds which is the typical time period that it takes a normal piston to cycle through compression and power strokes at any reasonable RPM. A Joe Cell may influence this avalanche reaction because of its strong negative electric effect. This would supply excessive electrons to the engine block and to the cylinder walls and even the surrounding water jacket thus allowing for a much faster reverse avalanche back to the atmospheric gases within the cylinder. Once the engine block, cylinder walls and engine water has been negatively charged (excess electrons) there may be no further need for the Joe Cell and this is seen in some cases where the cell leads are completely removed. This Avalanche Theory is the most plausible that I can think of given the conditions and energies present in the cylinder. An electron avalanche reaction will cause some radiation effects and thus is a type of nuclear reaction and should be properly shielded. Some Joe Cell experimenters have noted such radiations by using Geiger Counters near their cells too. Care should this be taken as over-exposure can lead to cancers (Papp died of colon cancer.) 4. The Everything Theory: Well, if you have a shotgun you can use it to cover a broader target. So lets say that the reaction is a chemical, nuclear and electromagnetic avalanche soup. You started with a soup mix, why not end with one? Now it is time for your comments. Tom Kramer --- snip --- Joes Cells Hi Guys, I have just been thrashing some Joe’s Cell thoughts through my head and would like to open some discussion on these ideas. First some known facts: 1. The cells use concentric 316L ss tubes having only the center tube connected to a battery as a cathode (-negative lead), but the other tubes and the outer casing are progressively charged with a positive lead on cell start-up only. This conditions the tubes to have a positive polarity facing towards the cathode and the outside of the tubes having a negative polarity (including the outer casing) (This is true if the center cathode is solid but the opposite charges if it is filled with water.) 2. When “any” but preferred mineral spring ground water is poured into the cell it must first be charged by first connecting the cathode lead and then touching each cylinder one after the other starting from the inner most to the outside casing with the positive battery lead. This is a polarizing process that apparently aligns the water molecules between the cylinders so that they form head-to-tail configurations. For some reason this conditioning process also causes the minerals or other contaminants in the water to precipitate out, either dropping to the bottom of the cell or forming a scum at the top. These precipitates have to be removed by simple flushing of the cell and re-charging the cell water several times. Once you have a cleaned and charged water, the cell is ready to work. 3. Critical to the cell functioning properly is the use of proper insulating materials, particularly substances that have no mineral metal content (even in colorings). Natural rubber products and some plastics are recommended. Any metal content will tend to short out the cell. This also applies to the cell mountings should you install one in your engine compartment or elsewhere in a car but in this case only natural insulators (wood, burlap, cotton, etc.) should encase the cell. The aluminum pipe coming out of the top of the cell should also be insulated with natural rubber tubing or material. 4. The cell when connected to a car uses a spark gap between the lead that comes off the top of the cell (that is insulated) in the connection to an engine. The spark gap is generally constructed out of a piece of plastic pipe connected on one end to the cell aluminum tube lead and the other end to just about anywhere on the engine carburetor or engine block but must have a gap between the aluminum tubing and connection point (1/2”-2” adjustable gap). This is a direct wired connection, but note that this is a NEGATIVE wire with a spark gap on it from the cell as the tap is off the OUTSIDE if the cell. (This is discussed in more detail in my next post). 5. The engine timing is them set to 70-80 degrees BTDC (35o-40o at the distributor) and if you have done everything right you should be off to the races. Now comes the discussion points: Inside the engine you have air being sucked into the cylinder and being controlled by the carburetor aperture opening based on throttle pedal positions. That is all that is going into the engine as fuel. Air is about 79% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and 2% water vapour and other trace gases. In the cylinder the air is about 50% compressed (and partially heated as a result) just before it is hit by the normal 20,000v distributor coil spark, which is a POSITIVE charge discharge. Now since you have a positive spark discharging to a negative grounded block and to a negative polarity Joe’s Cell, the spark gap appears to be the fastest way for the electric current to get back to the battery. This is provided that the current can flow through the water, which is now highly polarized. Now as described by those who have seen an engine running on a Joe’s Cell, the engine runs very cold (an endothermic reaction). The process absorbs atmospheric temperature. Since the primary things in the cylinder at the time of firing is N2 and O2 and the reaction is an implosion reaction (sucking the piston up) the only likelihood is that these two chemicals are being combined in a reaction that would form a smaller volume of gas, that is, NO or nitrous oxide (laughing gas) which is also very reactive in the reverse reaction. Perhaps what is happening in the cylinder is that there is an initial reduction in air volume (implosion) followed by the re-expansion of the gases (explosion of NO) on the down stroke. Now the question arises if anyone has tested the exhaust emissions for NO or NO2. If there is an increase in nitrous oxide levels, this will possibly indicate this type of reaction taking place. However, if there is an equalizing implosion/explosion reaction there will be a nil effect. Since electric current flows to the easiest route that it can find, Joe’s demonstration of spark gapping from just about anywhere would be a reasonable and normal response as the whole car body is GROUND for the distributor spark. Any negative lead will cause such an arcing, particularly if it is connected direct to the battery. The above NO theory would provide enough punch as nitrous oxide is the fuel booster of choice for dragsters and street racers. I can’t say at this time if this is correct, but it sounds better to me based on all the available inputs. I really don’t buy the orgone theory as the cell does not appear to be generating any additional electricity, but merely appears to be operating as a conductor or conduit for returning the HV spark to the battery. (Except when the negative lead is removed and then normal grounding channels would be followed.) Also if the NO Theory is correct, I could see why the MIB’s would want to suppress the technology…..FREE FUEL! Any motor or generator could be easily converted! FREE ELECTRICITY TOO! Comments Guys?! Tom Kramer PS: Should I start looking in my rear view mirror? --- snip --- More Joe’s Cells Hi Guys, I think that we need a few clarifications so that we are all on the same page. 1. Joe’sCell Connections: A Joe’s Cell is only electrically connected at the central cathode (-) from the battery (-). (And sometimes even this connection is disconnected if the cell is fully charged.) The other ss pipes are only briefly charged (sparked) with the positive lead to give them an initial polarizing charge, but then the positive (+) terminal is removed. From then on there is no connection to the car battery. The only exception is the possible addition of a trickle charger from a 1.5v flashlight battery (or similar choked charge from the car battery) to keep the cell properly charged for long periods of time (connecting the cathode to the outside top cylinder). I would also like to make a small correction to my last post concerning the charging polarities of the cell tubes. On re-inspection I noted that the cathode tube is water filled and the fitted bolt is connected on the inside of the tube. This may mean that the cathode tube inside wall is negative and outside wall is positive. Now with all series electrolysis cells that we are building, we know that this pattern of negative-positive alignments will follow through each succeeding cylinder right through to the outside casing which should measure POSITIVE on the OUTSIDE (and probably negative on the inside). If this is true then the aluminum tubing coming out of the top of the cell would also carry an outside positive charge and inside negative charge. Now this insulated aluminum pipe is NOT connected to the engine. There is an air gap created between the engine and the aluminum pipe by using a short piece of hose (4”). The connection to the engine is to just about any bolt-on location with another piece of aluminum pipe that may have to be drilled or machined to fit the attachment point. It is this connection that the hose is fitted to, but it is a blind connection, that is, it is not connected to any intake (carburetor) or vacuum hose. (Some builders do connect the line initially to a carburetor vacuum intake, but this is later disconnected and reconnected to a dead bolt as above.) 2. Spark Gap: The gap between the aluminum pipe and the engine pipe is set between ½” to 2” (the common recommendation is ¾”). I initially called this a ‘spark gap ’, but that is a bit of a misnomer in that a spark does not actually arc across this gap. If it ever did the cell would explode from the electrolysed gases. I should probably have called it a ‘conductance gap’ as there exists a conductance potential over the inner surface of the rubber tubing caused by highly polarized water generated by the cell adhering to the inner surface of the tubing. Now the jury is still out on the type of energy being transferred down through this pipe to or from the engine. It may be just the hv distributor discharge since the engine will only run when the coil-distributor are functioning (with or without plug wires attached). Or it may be orgone or some other energy clearly not fully understood. This connection does have an effect on the circuit though and it is a polarized effect because any grounding of the aluminum tube to the car (body, engine) will short out the cell. 3. Electrolysis: A Joe’s Cell is a very inefficient electrolysis cell. It does produce small amounts of H2 and O2 gas from normal electrolysis but this is or has to be vented off the cell. This is done either through a simple pressure valve or a loose fitting rubber hose that will allow the gases to be “burped” out. Note that highly polarized water vapor is also being generated and is coating the inside surface of the aluminum pipe and hose. A small amount of water is thus consumed by the cell during normal operation, but this is very small and is NOT burned in the engine (unless the vented gases are injected in some way). 4. Back to Eddie Crawford: Now, I would like to refer to the discussions of a couple months ago concerning Eddie Crawford’s water powered car. It was claimed that his car ran on water with a spark advance BTDC. WOW! No Joe’s Cell and the car still ran! Think about that for a minute. Here we have a spark induced implosion reaction but without orgone? Back to my NO Theory (with some possible NH and OH radicals added for safe measure) 5. Joe’s Mark I Cell: For those of you who have read Alex Shiffer’s excellent book on Joe’s Cells or seen pictures of Joe’s first cell you may recognize it as what I referred to in my book as an Aussie Cell (see Part 1 or 2). This is a 2-cylinder electrolysis cell that is connected to the vacuum intake on the intake manifold and controlled with a small needle valve to allow air into the cell. The inner cell is charged negative and the outer cell positive (and insulated from the car body and engine). This is a single cell version of an Archie Blue reactor and is meant to just add a modified H2, O2 and NO gas mix to the engine. These can increase gas mileage to over 100 mpg and can be further improved by coiling insulated wire around the cell and creating an electromagnetic field effect. Joe’s Mark I cell was one of these, however, he hooked it up wrong. Sort of back-asswards, but what do you expect from a farm boy? He thought that he was connecting it to the carburetor, but instead just hooked it up to the heat shield. So much for the Mother of invention. His mistake, of course, led to a most unusual discovery. 6. Orgone Energy: For the simplicity of standardization of terms I will discuss this new energy as “orgone” energy in respect to Wm. Reich. Alex’s coverage of other names is also very good for reference. (See his Chapter 2 & 3 in the Files section. I copy edited and copied his book into Word for Group reference.) I have read in a number of UFO accounts and futurist writings that we will discover and be able to use a new form of energy that is abundant and “free” . Orgone experiments such as those conducted by Reich, EV Gray, Papp and others clearly indicate such a force exists, but that it is a bit finicky and temperamental. Alex did a good job of trying to define orgone, but this is based on existing and past experimenter’s inefficient attempts to capture and use this force or energy. These efforts add to the confusion as differing methods have been used and each with varying degrees of success. One interesting point that I noted was that Reich referred to hexagonal collectors or concentrators to be a bit more efficient. Now does this relate to the fact that one of the most energized forms of water is when water molecules form hexagonal clusters? Should we perhaps use staggered hex tubes as a collector? Reich also noted that the orgone energy was a surface effect that traveled on the outside of a corrugated surface (threads?). Do we really need polished surfaces? Hmmm? Just some thought seeds for further discussion and experimentation. Now, is Bob Boyce’s 60 plate reactor an orgone collector? Sweet Dreams Guys. Tom Kramer --- snip --- Joe’s Water Hi Guys, This post is all about WATER. We all know that water is H2O. It is also a polarized molecule with the negative end being the Oxygen and the positive ENDS represented by the two Hydrogen atoms. That is a good starting point. What most people fail to understand is that water forms very complex macro-molecules due to the fact that the hydrogen atoms form HYDROGEN BONDS with adjacent oxygen atoms. These are supposedly WEAK bonds, however, since they are shared bonds, the bonding distance between any O-H combination can vary and shift readily based on various influences that are applied to water (heat, electricity, magnetism, etc.), that is, they can be strong or weak and shift between these states (bonding distances) very easily and quickly. It is thus better to think of water as one BIG molecule. It is more like H100O50, or H300O150, or H12O6, or any other clustered combinations that you can think of running into some very large numbers even within a drop of water. Water is also very seldom PURE. This is due to the fact that the natural polarity of water will cause other chemicals to be dissolved and essentially surrounded by either the oxygen ends or hydrogen ends of atomic ions. This situation can be altered and the ions can be precipitated out of the water if the water macro-molecules are stimulated to realign with each other thus forcing the dissolved mineral atoms to combine with each other and either drop out or float to the top (if lighter than water) of highly polarized water macro-molecules. This is generally what happens in a Joe’s Cell. Now it is also important to understand the SHAPE of water and its related hydrogen bonding. Under normal conditions the two hydrogen atoms are at about a 105o angle to each other (not 90o) due to the fact that similar charges oppose each other. This angle, however, constantly varies due to the influence of other adjacent hydrogen bonds and other outside stimulations (particularly electronic or magnetic). Remember that atoms are in constant motion and vibration so things do not remain the same.….ever. You should also imagine the hydrogen atoms bonding in a V pattern, but try to visualize the V both straight on and sideways (V and I (sideways)). Now in bonding, two V’s cannot combine as these are in opposition (< > positive-to-positive), but a O-O>O-O>O-O>O-O>O| |-O>O-O>O-O>O-O>O-O | Essentially what happens is that you form O-H polarized chains between the cathode (-) and the anode (+) terminals. If you supply enough current you will get electrolysis (water dissociation). If you do NOT supply enough current you will merely MAINTAIN POLARITY and you will not get electrolysis. This is what is happening in a Joe’s Cell. Looking at this more closely you should also note that there is hydrogen bonding BETWEEN LAYERS of these macro-molecules. This creates one very large macro-molecule with polarized orientation. That is, all the water molecules are attached to each other in an optimized and polarized manner. This creates a unique lattice structure through which energies (electrical, magnetic, orgone(?)) can be easily transmitted. Now note that any disturbances to this lattice structure will result in the immediate disruption of any polarized field effect. Simply, (1) reversing of the plate polarities or (2) the influence of strong magnetic fields (including the fact that humans are di-poles, head positive and feet grounded) or (3) resonant vibration effects or (4) excessive heat or (5) the addition of ions or other contaminants, all will cause interference in such a lattice structure and thus weaken or completely destroy the effect. This is clearly seen in the temperamental nature of Joe’s Cells. This also explains why a Joe Cell must be progressively charged and the fact that you need to use non-magnetic stainless steel. The actual charge on the cylinders are NEGATIVE (-) on the inside and POSITIVE (+) on the outside of each cylinder, but the cylinders have to be charged progressively positive outwards from the central cathode, one after the other, so that they form this (-) inside and (+) outside polarity so that the water can realign itself into the proper lattice formation. Now there is another interesting geometric pattern that water forms. Although water can take on many different macro-molecule structural formations, one of the most beneficial is a HEXAGONAL BONDING relationship. This is most often formed by spinning water in a vortex. A hexagonal shape is about as close as you can get to a round geometric shape with atoms having angular bonding. And it has been observed that Joe Cells exhibit a circular flow between the cylinders. Hmmm. And for those experienced with Hydro-Magnetic Dynamos (HMD’s) you will also see some similarities in electrical power generation. There are several possible reasons for this movement in the water. The first has to do with cell geometry. Simply the cells are round but the water molecules are angular which means that not all surface bonding is straight on and that through natural pushing and shoving of molecules, some will be displaced in a sequential lattice manner and with any particular influence (magnetic particularly), this displacement will form a wave or circular pattern in one direction (a possible dynamo effect). The second factor mentioned above is magnetic field effects. These are noted in Joe Cells as having a N-S vertical polarity on the cells. The cells are also influenced by the earth’s N-S polar alignment. Magnetic fields have a circular effect and thus are the most likely cause of such noticed water movement in the cells. This geometric shape, however, has led me to another line of thought. Movement of water within a cell certainly will cause disturbances to the lattice structure mentioned above. That will, to varying degrees, affect the efficiency of the cell. Now as I see it (and this is just conjecture theory at this stage), it would appear that a hexagonal shaped cell would more closely FIT the atomic angles of the water molecules in a lattice formation. This would prevent unnecessary water movement and considerably less disruption to the lattice form, thus being much more stable in operation. Now where are we going to find hexagonal pipes? We will have to make them from 316L plate with TIG welded joints. Pre-polish before bending and welding. You will also need a plastic or wooden hex-form for truing to size and shape. Who knows what the maximized measurements will be at this time? No body. But that is what experimentation is all about. It is an interesting concept and, if you have a proper shop, it may be worth a try. In conclusion, the water in a Joe Cell is clearly being polarized into an aligned lattice structure. This initially results in the precipitation of most of the ions in the water during the conditioning phase. Once the water has essentially purified itself, it will form interlinked geometric patterns conducive to the flow of various energies (electrical, magnetic and orgone(?)). This is seen in the initial electrolytic cell charging and later in the N-S vertical magnetic polarity developed by the cell, and also by the strange effects the cell (and aligned Joe’s water) has on engines (and people). This macro-molecule polarized lattice arrangement of water within a cell appears to have a type of capacitance effect as noted in the pulsing of an engine idling on a Joe Cell. I would be interested to know what the cycle periods are in seconds as this might relate to the Schumann Resonance Frequency of the earth’s ionosphere (7.83Hz-12Hz range) which would also be affected by day night cycles and various solar radiation effects. (Cells can sometimes go dead overnight.) However, this is not a typical capacitor effect in that there is only a negative lead connection, or at times, NO connection to an electrical power source. It is more of a polarized potential of energy or an energy collector than a typical electrical discharge capacitor. This is caused by polarized geometric alignments, but it is still unclear how these alignments create an effect on the AIR (nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor and trace elements) within an engine cylinder to cause an implosion reaction on the compression stroke. That is a topic for further discussion and postings. This should be enough food for thought for one day. I have posted this message in the files section under Kramer’s Joe’s Cell Comments together with several other postings for easier future reference by all. I appreciate all comments and constructive additions or deletions as you, from your own personal experiences, may deem to be relevant. Thank you. Tom Kramer --- Ends --- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.2/329 - Release Date: 02/05/2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 03:15:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44AFcvT027321; Thu, 4 May 2006 03:15:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44AFVFl027204; Thu, 4 May 2006 03:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 03:15:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Dzp9AUmfFYaJWrFUDJumBmXbPmf2AK4sEuV99noW6W9Ufdahoiw1crhON5/fqAu/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006544101452555@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 04:14:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a015b326454540fd8989ce50cce85048350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A bit short on accuracy there, Patrick. :-) AIR COMPOSITION: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-composition-d_212.html AIR PROPERTIES: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html >From NASA, SOME BASICS: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/compexp.html NASA'S ANIMATED, FOUR STROKE ENGINE: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/engopt.html Also Note that when CRANKING the engine with the butterfly valve CLOSED the engine acts as a 4-stroke VACUUM PUMP and can LOWER the PRESSURE in INTAKE MANIFOLD and THE JOE CELL to the vapor pressure of ICE WATER faster than the HEAT FROM the BATTERY-POWERED ELECTROLYZER can keep up. They used to call that THE CHOKE. Time was that you could manually "CHOKE" an engine by removing the air breather/oilbath cleaner, and pressing your palm against the top of the carburetor and end getting a temporary hickey. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A bit short on accuracy there, Patrick.  :-)
 
AIR COMPOSITION:
 
AIR PROPERTIES:
 
From NASA, SOME BASICS:
 
NASA'S ANIMATED, FOUR STROKE ENGINE:
 
 
Also Note that when CRANKING  the engine with the butterfly valve CLOSED
the engine acts as a 4-stroke VACUUM PUMP and can LOWER the
PRESSURE in INTAKE MANIFOLD and THE JOE CELL to the vapor pressure of ICE WATER faster
than the HEAT FROM the BATTERY-POWERED ELECTROLYZER
can keep up.
They used to call that THE CHOKE.
 
Time was that you could manually "CHOKE" an engine by removing
the air breather/oilbath cleaner, and pressing your palm against the top of the carburetor
and end getting a temporary hickey.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 04:47:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44Bl2ur011108; Thu, 4 May 2006 04:47:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44Bl0LS011081; Thu, 4 May 2006 04:47:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 04:47:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pmefktB82pnuIBGCp6dOIVaYPncz5wWqwaY0F/wUeC/E0eetAQkFZiSma2RiiqZl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006544114649237@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 05:46:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403d4f9117db3a8d2b33df643081a6cf50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.39 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Now that you have the basics, Patrick, go to the OTTO CYCLE and Plug In The Numbers. Vary , AMBIENT & COMBUSTION TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE, ONLY. As you can see at 300 K Ambient, 0.25 Atmosphere Ambient (Intake Manifold) Pressure, 500 K Combustion Temp at a 7.0 compression ratio, you can Suck Cold Air in from the Exhaust if the valves are leaky. :-) POWER CYCLE ANALYSIS CALCULATOR: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/4/2006 4:16:19 AM Subject: Joe Cell Theories A bit short on accuracy there, Patrick. :-) AIR COMPOSITION: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-composition-d_212.html AIR PROPERTIES: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html >From NASA, SOME BASICS: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/compexp.html NASA'S ANIMATED, FOUR STROKE ENGINE: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/engopt.html Also Note that when CRANKING the engine with the butterfly valve CLOSED the engine acts as a 4-stroke VACUUM PUMP and can LOWER the PRESSURE in INTAKE MANIFOLD and THE JOE CELL to the vapor pressure of ICE WATER faster than the HEAT FROM the BATTERY-POWERED ELECTROLYZER can keep up. They used to call that THE CHOKE. Time was that you could manually "CHOKE" an engine by removing the air breather/oilbath cleaner, and pressing your palm against the top of the carburetor and end up getting a temporary hickey. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Now that you have the basics, Patrick, go to the
OTTO CYCLE and Plug In The Numbers.
Vary , AMBIENT & COMBUSTION TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE, ONLY.
 
As you can see at 300 K Ambient, 0.25 Atmosphere Ambient (Intake Manifold) Pressure,
500 K Combustion Temp at a 7.0 compression ratio,  you can
Suck  Cold Air in from the Exhaust if the valves are leaky.  :-)
 
 
POWER CYCLE ANALYSIS CALCULATOR:
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/4/2006 4:16:19 AM
Subject: Joe Cell Theories

A bit short on accuracy there, Patrick.  :-)
 
AIR COMPOSITION:
 
AIR PROPERTIES:
 
From NASA, SOME BASICS:
 
NASA'S ANIMATED, FOUR STROKE ENGINE:
 
 
Also Note that when CRANKING  the engine with the butterfly valve CLOSED
the engine acts as a 4-stroke VACUUM PUMP and can LOWER the
PRESSURE in INTAKE MANIFOLD and THE JOE CELL to the vapor pressure of ICE WATER faster
than the HEAT FROM the BATTERY-POWERED ELECTROLYZER
can keep up.
They used to call that THE CHOKE.
 
Time was that you could manually "CHOKE" an engine by removing
the air breather/oilbath cleaner, and pressing your palm against the top of the carburetor
and end up getting a temporary hickey.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 05:35:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44CYvej005343; Thu, 4 May 2006 05:34:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44CYtt7005323; Thu, 4 May 2006 05:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 05:34:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=b/FBTps260CghnQIyoTmfq33I9lRzZbSkeLgzK2G9zNnh7oqfVUmsAi9hM9sHsJh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006544123444843@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 06:34:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406ed65ee6ce6d7ee13b888c055b140d60350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.73 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Using these calculators for the Otto or Diesel Cycle, see what substituting a 4 Liter (half full) Jug of Beer for the Joe Cell will do pulling a 0.25 Atmosphere Vacuum on it. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 F Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K AIR COMPOSITION: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-composition-d_212.html AIR PROPERTIES: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Using these calculators for the Otto or Diesel Cycle,
see what substituting a  4 Liter (half full) Jug of Beer for the Joe Cell
will do pulling a 0.25 Atmosphere Vacuum on it.
 
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas Inversion Temp Deg K
Space 0-3
Helium 51
 
Nitrogen 621        658.13 F
Argon 723             841.73 F
Krypton 727
Oxygen 893          1147.73 F
Xenon 1427
 
Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K
Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 05:55:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44CtFfc018546; Thu, 4 May 2006 05:55:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44CtERW018508; Thu, 4 May 2006 05:55:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 05:55:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <001e01c66f79$c4c5c860$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:53:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankPatrick Vessey/Tom Kramer wrote.. Now it is also important to understand the SHAPE of water and its = related hydrogen bonding. Under normal conditions the two hydrogen atoms are at about a 105o angle to each other (not 90o) due to the fact that similar charges oppose each other. This angle, however, constantly varies due = to the influence of other adjacent hydrogen bonds and other outside stimulations (particularly electronic or magnetic). Remember that atoms = are in constant motion and vibration so things do not remain the = same...ever. You should also imagine the hydrogen atoms bonding in a V pattern, but = try to visualize the V both straight on and sideways (V and I (sideways)). = Now in bonding, two V's cannot combine as these are in opposition (< > positive-to-positive), but a Blank
Patrick Vessey/Tom Kramer wrote..

Now it is also important to understand the SHAPE of water and its=20 related
hydrogen bonding.  Under normal conditions the two = hydrogen=20 atoms are at
about a 105o angle to each other (not 90o) due to the = fact that=20 similar
charges oppose each other.  This angle, however, = constantly=20 varies due to
the influence of other adjacent hydrogen bonds and = other=20 outside
stimulations (particularly electronic or magnetic).  = Remember=20 that atoms are
in constant motion and vibration so things do not = remain the=20 same...ever.

You should also imagine the hydrogen atoms bonding = in a V=20 pattern, but try
to visualize the V both straight on and sideways (V = and I=20 (sideways)).   Now
in bonding, two V's cannot combine as = these are=20 in opposition (< >
positive-to-positive), but a <O-O<O- = type of=20 alignment is possible.  It is a
bit difficult to show this in 2D = and=20 with text only, but I hope you get the
idea.

Howdy Patrick,

Oh! But it were that simple. Your remarks regarding the "shape" of = water=20 allow me to mention that we observe vortices being shed off a central = vortex=20 when inducing the swirl in water. This works in a vertical cylindrical = round=20 tank. In a square tank, the vortices shed off the main vortex produce a=20 combination of either vertical , diagonal or horizontal shaped vortexes = at=20 electric drive motor speeds of 3450 RPM. In a square tank, increasing = the motor=20 speed above 6500 RPM creates a water vortex with the shape of a = true=20 hurricane "eyewall" configuration. From this center eyewall is shed = a=20 separate horizontal water vortex that maintains a rather constant shape = with the=20 mouth of the shed vortex "kissing" the northwest quadrant of the square = tank. We=20 haven't tried a " hex" tank but the 105 degree angle is a thought = for =20 trying various " wedge shaped restrictors" suspended in the tank. Thanks = for the=20 idea.

The idea of a shotgun configuration is not a new concept. In Texas we = have=20 used shotguns for various purposes ever since we discovered their effect = on=20 horse thieves, stagecoach robbers and card sharps. Of course, nowadays = what with=20 political correctness, we can only turn them loose to send to DC as = politicians=20 and lobbyists.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c66f79$ac852250$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C66F4F.C3BE5C90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 06:00:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44D03HH021930; Thu, 4 May 2006 06:00:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44CQXe1000924; Thu, 4 May 2006 05:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 05:26:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 08:26:40 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83D8D21429427-1B5C-33B@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <025601c66f01$85c26d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <8C83D27BA3DE1D4-1004-1137D@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> <761j5211gbmbm5b2tp88npl1d4doa1ktrp@4ax.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <761j5211gbmbm5b2tp88npl1d4doa1ktrp@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk >IOW every .1875/1.44 minutes (7.8 seconds) of charge time will take >you one mile. .1855 *kWh / 1.44 kW = 7.8 minutes (not seconds) :( <><><><><><><> LOL! I *thought* that looked wrong! I shouldn't mess with power after a bottle of Merlot. ;-) Thanks, mate! Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 06:49:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44Dmu0o022998; Thu, 4 May 2006 06:48:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44DmtBk022966; Thu, 4 May 2006 06:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 06:48:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ruyD7pB508nrMIPTqjRQkDBPHUEjK2U7b4O1I/+GwXlCBnHIhGbEF1ECQVTz2jrK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006544134834983@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:48:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94051c39f4e646d5d5aec3debaf58292bd3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII My Theory, Patrick. When you electrolyze in the Joe Cell with the low pressure water vapor as a carrier for unrecombined OH and O Radicals from the Anode Surfaces and H3O - H Radicals from the Cathode Surfaces you get a "Brown's Gas Over-Unity" heat benefit in the engine cylinder that you don't get if these electrolysis products recombine in the cell to form H2 + O2 which then require combustion energy to break the O-O and H-H bonds in order to complete the reaction: 2 H2 + O2 ----> 2 H2O + Heat Energy IOW The Joe Cell is a` High Efficiency Brown's Gas Generator that can probably use about 250 watts from the battery to get enough gas and water vapor to get enough engine shaft energy to power the alternator that's recharging the battery, IE., 20 Amps at 12 volts = 250 watts + 250/746 = 1/3 Horsepower. Enough to "Generate" a lot of Speculation, but, Unfortunately, IMO not enough to Scare The Hell out of The Energy Interests. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/4/2006 6:35:44 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Using these calculators for the Otto or Diesel Cycle, see what substituting a 4 Liter (half full) Jug of Beer for the Joe Cell will do pulling a 0.25 Atmosphere Vacuum on it. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Nitrogen 621 658.13 F Argon 723 841.73 F Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 1147.73 F Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K AIR COMPOSITION: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-composition-d_212.html AIR PROPERTIES: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
My Theory, Patrick.
 
When you electrolyze in the Joe Cell with the low pressure water
vapor as a carrier for unrecombined OH and O Radicals
from the Anode Surfaces and H3O - H Radicals from the
Cathode Surfaces you get a "Brown's Gas Over-Unity"
heat benefit in the engine cylinder that you don't get if these
electrolysis products recombine in the cell to form H2 + O2
which then require combustion energy to break the O-O
and H-H bonds in order to complete the reaction:
 
2 H2 + O2  ----> 2 H2O  +  Heat Energy
 
IOW The Joe Cell is a` High Efficiency Brown's Gas Generator
that can probably use about 250 watts from the battery
to get enough gas and water vapor to get enough engine shaft energy
to power the alternator that's recharging the battery,
IE., 20 Amps at 12 volts = 250 watts + 250/746 = 1/3 Horsepower.
 
Enough to "Generate" a lot of Speculation, but, Unfortunately, IMO not
enough to Scare The Hell out of The Energy Interests. :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/4/2006 6:35:44 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

Using these calculators for the Otto or Diesel Cycle,
see what substituting a  4 Liter (half full) Jug of Beer for the Joe Cell
will do pulling a 0.25 Atmosphere Vacuum on it.
 
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature,
above that temperature it heats under expansion."
 
Gas Inversion Temp Deg K
Space 0-3
Helium 51
 
Nitrogen 621        658.13 F
Argon 723             841.73 F
Krypton 727
Oxygen 893          1147.73 F
Xenon 1427
 
Zero Deg C = 273 Deg K
Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 06:51:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44DoGiN024127; Thu, 4 May 2006 06:51:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44DkSQ8021453; Thu, 4 May 2006 06:46:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 06:46:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060504093832.03db75b0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 09:46:00 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: "Fully Charged in About 8 Minutes" In-Reply-To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC190C1@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <8C83C3896905C86-28B8-9E8D@mblkn-m07.sysops.aol.com> <001c01c66e42$54070180$3800a8c0@zothan> <7geg52llb30mifoadm9jsr23ihbe91vh1c@4ax.com> <01a801c66e8a$3541ba40$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20060503094402.03cf6b60@mindspring.com> <020a01c66ed5$0b36d4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >They will require no real estate at all, and there will be one about >every 10-20 meters. Since they will exist in almost every private >home and business. That's true. If I were to approach someone now with the electric bicycle or an experimental electric car and ask "would you mind letting me recharge?" they would think I am weird, or up to something. But with millions of electric vehicles, people would be used to the idea. Eventually, many people would have ~20 kW outdoor chargers for their own cars. You might limp along until you find one, and ask permission, or maybe just steal the electricity if no one is home. As you pointed out, it would take a long time to recharge from a regular 1.5 kW outlet, even if you only wanted to go a few miles to the nearest charging station. This system would take some getting used to, and there would be problems at first. For example, on an interstate highway there might be incidents in which people had to wait for hours to recharge. After that happens a few times and makes the news, gas stations, fast food restaurants and others would soon see profit potential, and fix the problem. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 07:20:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44EJiQH015288; Thu, 4 May 2006 07:19:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44EJh0a015270; Thu, 4 May 2006 07:19:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:19:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Z0+MD+8k5009B6fp8PsYSFHIsnt3YKb7cz68EQ0iHSJNcAXs1KazMu+/luefL2I7ObfxYFjZXw7dUzCLdyQbg6rCnZb8DU6VEqj6FeL3QLMrQSLeRvuoAb4cRwhHb5nyBd7KkymYD+Et7ko0TOK82kbBUeyleSYsj7GmfBOCPGs= ; Message-ID: <20060504141942.48356.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001e01c66f79$c4c5c860$0100007f@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-1918108717-1146752382=:48335" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1918108717-1146752382=:48335 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline I think it would indeed be helpful to document all of the possible theories of operation - even though, AFAIK there is no well-documented evidence that any of the many designs alternatives works in a robust way. However I have one video which looks trustworthy but it is NOT a traditional Joe_Cell. There is a 'sort of' mundane explanation - mundane to a Jules Verne mentality maybe - for a hypothetical method whereby electrolyzed water vapor can act as a fuel. It actually should be the starting point for this discussion, and one of the Aussies has apparently mentioned something similar. It is the simplest explanation, even though there is definitely ZERO orgone or hocus pocus. I will call it the exploding-plasma-capacitor theory. Everyone knows that electrolytic capacitors can explode when the applied voltage gets to be too high, everyone knows that a *plasma* can itself operate like (and be) a capacitor, of sorts, everyone knows that a charged mass of water vapor at less than atmospheric pressure can be a plasma, everyone knows that the closer the plates are forced in a variable plate capacitor - the higher the voltage. Not everyone has connected the dots, however. This explanation does NOT require full water-splitting, orgone, hydrinos or any exotic particles. The formation of molecular hydrogen H2 is actually detrimental, and will revert the capacitor effect to normal conservative electrolysis. In fact, such a setup should NOT even be called a Joe_Cell since plenty of water vapor is used, none of the hocus-pocus helps, and there is definitely no orgone, and Joe himself is a seriously deranged individual who does not deserve the name-recognition. Another person to happen onto this technique was Stanley Meyer, another seriously troubled and ultra-secretive individual. This system does require both a high current electric field and a partial vacuum, as Fred Sparber has been keen to note. The video of the clear (plastic) cell, showing the massive effect of micro-bubbling due to the vacuum of the ICE is clearly the important visual documentation of what is going on. Since real water-splitting sets in about 1.3 volts, the effective voltage must be kept below this value, but current must be available in the tens of kiloamps for even a small engine. Approximately half the output of the engine is recycled, so that with a Carnot eff. of about 25% the COP must be in the range of 8-10 for usefullness. This excess energy is supplied ultimately by ZPE - or rather by the failure of Casimir Pressure to keep the capacitor charges separated. When the beta-aether pressure is overwhelmed during the compression cycle then a capacitive breakdown occurs - an explosion follows, and net power is gained via ZPE. Obviously no current will flow under these conditions of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling. At 3000 RPM, this is 25 times per second per cylinder in a 4-cycles ICE -so there is a 40 millisecond time frame to play with. The phase change under this vacuum condition allows for a 'virtual conductivity' effect - whereby that 1 volt potential becomes a very high effective voltage gradient when the normal water structure is reformed into the micro-bubbles. Were it not for the laws of thermodynamics, this might not seem so fanciful. The problem for the mainstream is that there is a net gain and the effect is non-conservative. As mentioned the gain is initiated when a fully charged one volt variable capacitor is compressed (has its plates moved closer). At a 10-1 compression ratio, the equivalent of several hundred volts may arise in a transient state before breakdown. Alternatively the non-conservative energy gain ( COP of 8 or more), can be said to derive from a higher power law (jerk) during the capacitor breakdown phase. This would allow a squaring of the effective energy for a few milliseconds of time at TDC perhaps, after which the gas expansion reverts to normal acceleration. This can serve as a starting point for explaining the effect in only one of this type of cell. Obviously a true Joe Cell it is not - as the manifold cannot be blocked, the vacuum must come through the charged water, with massive bubbling, and the water lost must be replaced in an on-going fashion and there is no orgone or hocus pocus. However, in the only video which I saw where the effect was not clearly staged - this is what is happening. It is definitely "no-Joe," but appears to be "real-go" based solely on the exploding-plasma-capacitor effect. However the participants might have access to clear spirits, some of which augments the effect. Now if will go fetch a big mug of the only Joe I want to deal with today. Jones --0-1918108717-1146752382=:48335-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:00:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44F01dw008357; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:00:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44ExupV008307; Thu, 4 May 2006 07:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:59:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: An Electric car for Wifey Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC19A03@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: An Electric car for Wifey Thread-Index: AcZvi2dYmHaWJiK/TfGZTrZkGkv5Dg== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2006 14:59:55.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[67421880:01C66F8B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k44ExsvC008278 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When electric cars are developed, the operating costs are going to be compelling for households with two or more vehicles and businesses that operate fleets of cars locally. Even with $3 gasoline, electric vehicles are going to be much cheaper to operate per mile. The obstacle will be the initial cost of purchase but volume should bring that down. In the hilly area where I live, I can foresee a lot of regenerative braking on descents, instead of wearing out my rotors and pads. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:05:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44F4fXn012331; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:04:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44F4daU012296; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:04:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:04:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:04:46 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Joe Cell Variant? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being downunder? http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009 13288&n=2 Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:30:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44FU28k030469; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:30:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44FN3BI025757; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:23:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:23:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qqpQDwm0h8BkxCrquoXiqrt9DpGTs4Kr3yKO0/0T9AUcGet/0zGVmeWWTsJp+fP1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006544152245967@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:22:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940982cbd44eb4fd31e610b6158efdcfabe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.160 Resent-Message-ID: <6aES6B.A.WSG.WxhWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > I think it would indeed be helpful to document all of > the possible theories of operation - even though, > AFAIK there is no well-documented evidence that any of > the many designs alternatives works in a robust way. > However I have one video which looks trustworthy but > it is NOT a traditional Joe_Cell. > Sniper. > > The video of the clear (plastic) cell, > showing the massive effect of micro-bubbling due to > the vacuum of the ICE is clearly the important visual > documentation of what is going on. > > Since real water-splitting sets in about 1.3 volts, > the effective voltage must be kept below this value, > but current must be available in the tens of kiloamps > for even a small engine. Approximately half the output > of the engine is recycled, so that with a Carnot eff. > of about 25% the COP must be in the range of 8-10 for > usefullness. This excess energy is supplied ultimately > by ZPE - or rather by the failure of Casimir Pressure > to keep the capacitor charges separated. When the > beta-aether pressure is overwhelmed during the > compression cycle then a capacitive breakdown occurs - > an explosion follows, and net power is gained via ZPE. > > Obviously no current will flow under these conditions > of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable > ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial > vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling. > Do you need any current, really? > > At 3000 RPM, this is 25 times per second per cylinder > in a 4-cycles ICE -so there is a 40 millisecond time > frame to play with. The phase change under this vacuum > condition allows for a 'virtual conductivity' effect - > whereby that 1 volt potential becomes a very high > effective voltage gradient when the normal water > structure is reformed into the micro-bubbles. > I get 12.5 low pressure intakes/sec [3000/(4*60)] = 80 millisec per cylinder > > Were it not for the laws of thermodynamics, this might > not seem so fanciful. The problem for the mainstream > is that there is a net gain and the effect is > non-conservative. As mentioned the gain is initiated > when a fully charged one volt variable capacitor is > compressed (has its plates moved closer). At a 10-1 > compression ratio, the equivalent of several hundred > volts may arise in a transient state before breakdown. > Collapsing Microbubbles are Cavitation Bubbles. > > Alternatively the non-conservative energy gain ( COP > of 8 or more), can be said to derive from a higher > power law (jerk) during the capacitor breakdown phase. > This would allow a squaring of the effective energy > for a few milliseconds of time at TDC perhaps, after > which the gas expansion reverts to normal > acceleration. > > This can serve as a starting point for explaining the > effect in only one of this type of cell. Obviously a > true Joe Cell it is not - as the manifold cannot be > blocked, the vacuum must come through the charged > water, with massive bubbling, and the water lost must > be replaced in an on-going fashion and there is no > orgone or hocus pocus. > Right. > > However, in the only video which I saw where the > effect was not clearly staged - this is what is > happening. > > It is definitely "no-Joe," but appears to be "real-go" > based solely on the exploding-plasma-capacitor effect. > However the participants might have access to clear > spirits, some of which augments the effect. > Mechanically Induced Cavitation = Sonububbles. No? > > Now if will go fetch a big mug of the only Joe I want > to deal with today. > Get all you need, by all means. :-) Fred > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:30:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44FU28m030469; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44FFHLM019658; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:15:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:15:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:15:19 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83DA4B0E8446F-1B5C-842@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Joe Cell Variant? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k44FFBld019595 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being downunder?    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009   13288&n=2  http://tinyurl.com/nxnsw ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:42:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44Fgc1s007425; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:42:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44FgXdZ007357; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:42:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:42:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=e0Q6NIoaFlokDRh1xImedGWTlw/N8+1AeC9EJOOf+appys5SRBdDqKAlmjwz0qAv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200654415421924@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Joe Cell Variant? Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:42:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a299f3cc679e1ef15031633373a3a2c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.160 Resent-Message-ID: <2tWKGC.A.xyB.nDiWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Something to do with being upside down for extended periods, perhaps? :-) Fred > hohlrauml asks. > > Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being downunder? > > http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009 > 13288&n=2 > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:50:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44Foch7013584; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:50:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44FoXJZ013515; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:50:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:50:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FUjQw/groGAsNqAtD+fmJlmyhlz/PseUuVsyWpqGn5AKwFXX+TmgwTwaZop59+M95IUZx93CqDV9Z9bo+/Yej1zWoGvnXqTS/rrmnqFHcKkX19gVZhQkLpqHg2bJzesZfHVuWSg1FkOmd4VR2fcfFJ9Bx7AxuQ0qFX89mJfCmt8= ; Message-ID: <20060504154346.86891.qmail@web81109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:43:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Joe Cell Variant? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is the engine which is definitely burning crankcase oil as the fuel. There is a long version from the "60 Minutes" program with a professor being called in - who found the *real* source of energy. Test were done using the standard exhaust methods and the identical amount of carbon is being burned as if the fuel was gasoline. Ryan denies any fraud but this is clearly a case of burning crankcase oil, and they even show the machinist who did-the-deed at his lathe - presumably taking a few mils off the rings so that adequate oil can be sloshed and burned, due to the sloppy fit. This may end up being the real reason that any of them work at all, but the video with the clear cell and the massive bubbling is worth a look. The same kind of testing needs to be done on the exhaust, to see how much carbon is coming out. The stakes are too high for "guilt by association". If no carbon is coming out, and this is very easy to determine - then it will not be long before the energy crisis is solved... HA... dream on.... --- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being > downunder? > > http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009 > 13288&n=2 > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your > Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 11:05:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44I5N4w007203; Thu, 4 May 2006 11:05:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44I5Lp0007177; Thu, 4 May 2006 11:05:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:05:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060504180517953.173A21C0008B@mwinf3012.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060504180519.0099924c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 19:05:19 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: >> ... >> >> Obviously no current will flow under these conditions >> of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable >> ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial >> vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling. Fred wrote: > Do you need any current, really? I would think that you do. I see the current as putting the equivalent of a mechanical stress on the water and "cracking" it open. These cavitation cracks could be at negative pressures of up to 60,000 psi. In other words they are Beta-atmosphere vacua. It is at these enormous "negative" pressures that the exotic chemistry takes place. I think Jones has put his finger on a very important point. He has identified the meeting place of mechanical and EM stress. The electric current bring the water to a state where it is just about to "explode". The Alpha atmosphere vacuum triggers this internal explosion. Of course, to "see" it as an explosion one has to be prepared to shift ones pressure datum down to high negative values below the arbitrary external zero. Interestingly enough, Jones's insight has implications for cold fusion. ===================================================== See "Aether Vacua and Cold Fusion" - Frank J. Grimer, Infinite Energy - Issue 46, 2002, pp.28-33 But the diagrams are better on the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo group site version of the above paper. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ You will find it in the file section of the site ===================================================== Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 11:38:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44IcFTs030320; Thu, 4 May 2006 11:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44IcCKG030280; Thu, 4 May 2006 11:38:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060504183806685.A7587580008B@mwinf3114.me.freeserve.com Reply-To: From: "Patrick Vessey" To: Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:40:12 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-22006544101452555@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred/all, > A bit short on accuracy there, Patrick. :-) By posting Tom's comments, I wasn't intending to suggest my support for them. Rather, I was taking a bit of a pointy stick and pushing it into the vort nest :-) I personally have seen nothing to convince me that Joe/similar cells actually work as advertised. However, in trying to keep an open mind - and explore other possibilities - I've been getting increasingly frustrated by the disconnect of the various groups out there. On Y!, there are a few individuals discussing theory based on known science, or what might be considered reasonable extrapolations to it. On the whole, though, there's a lot of Orgone breathers (which may/may not prove valid), attempting to discuss cell theory/construction without really knowing how the thing works (assuming it does). However, on Y! you also seem to have a decent number of folks actually doing hands-on experiments. Here (vortex) we've got some very well grounded scientific expertise, with a decent amount of open mindedness. Over the last few weeks I've seen a number of plausible (and a few not so) theories evolve here as to how these, or similar, cells might function. What I've not seen here are any suggested protocols for simple experiments to work towards proving - or otherwise - any of these theories. What I'm attempting to say - admittedly in a very long winded manner - is that to move our understanding forward we really need the enthusiastic hands-on approach typified by the Y! guys to be coupled with the solid(ish!) science found in places like this. Now, I don't know if some of you have been experimenting and exchanging info off-list; if so, please direct flames to my personal mail account. My challenge: how about a few simple protocols for reproducible experiments to test some of the theories previously discussed here? Cheers, Patrick -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.2/329 - Release Date: 02/05/2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 12:21:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44JLcGV024394; Thu, 4 May 2006 12:21:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44JLaoq024374; Thu, 4 May 2006 12:21:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:21:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060504122320.02ab1008@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 12:23:50 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: but where are the nuclear ashes? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <02iFQB.A.v8F.ARlWEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.hippopress.com/060504/cover.html Cold fusion hair extensions (Offered at locations including NikkiLee & Co., 250 Commercial St., Manchester,666-HAIR) NikkiLee uses a new method called cold fusion that is more gentle on your hair and scalp. A keratin based polymer is used (rather than hot glue) to attach the extensions to the root. There is no heat used and it is suitable for fine hair. The end result is a mane that is flexible and natural looking and feeling. Price upon consultation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 14:51:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44Lp4Ke011829; Thu, 4 May 2006 14:51:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44Lp2Qo011804; Thu, 4 May 2006 14:51:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:51:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1193679502.1146779455396.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:50:55 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: but where are the nuclear ashes? Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have it on good authority that Cold Fusion exists in half the population. It's called menopause. It's 3:00 AM in the morning and my spouse in a sudden eruption of anomalous heat throws the covers off, scattering the cats to the wind and me to the floor. I think it was the humorist Dave Barry who once said that one of his aunts was capable of powering the lower 48 states when she was turned on. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ---- Philip Winestone wrote: > Frankly, I'm sceptical; very skeptical. There must be fallout. And does > she use a D2O wash? > > P. > > > > At 12:23 PM 5/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >http://www.hippopress.com/060504/cover.html > > > >Cold fusion hair extensions (Offered at locations including NikkiLee & > >Co., 250 Commercial St., Manchester,666-HAIR) NikkiLee uses a new method > >called cold fusion that is more gentle on your hair and scalp. A keratin > >based polymer is used (rather than hot glue) to attach the extensions to > >the root. There is no heat used and it is suitable for fine hair. The end > >result is a mane that is flexible and natural looking and feeling. Price > >upon consultation. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 19:10:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k452A2Wc016721; Thu, 4 May 2006 19:10:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4521Ef8011748; Thu, 4 May 2006 19:01:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:01:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 22:00:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Praise of Idleness By Bertrand Russell [1932] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like most of my generation, I was brought up on the saying: 'Satan finds some mischief for idle hands to do.' Being a highly virtuous child, I believed all that I was told, and acquired a conscience which has kept me working hard down to the present moment. But although my conscience has controlled my actions, my opinions have undergone a revolution. I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous, and that what needs to be preached in modern industrial countries is quite different from what always has been preached. Everyone knows the story of the traveler in Naples who saw twelve beggars lying in the sun (it was before the days of Mussolini), and offered a lira to the laziest of them. Eleven of them jumped up to claim it, so he gave it to the twelfth. this traveler was on the right lines. But in countries which do not enjoy Mediterranean sunshine idleness is more difficult, and a great public propaganda will be required to inaugurate it. I hope that, after reading the following pages, the leaders of the YMCA will start a campaign to induce good young men to do nothing. If so, I shall not have lived in vain. Before advancing my own arguments for laziness, I must dispose of one which I cannot accept. Whenever a person who already has enough to live on proposes to engage in some everyday kind of job, such as school-teaching or typing, he or she is told that such conduct takes the bread out of other people's mouths, and is therefore wicked. If this argument were valid, it would only be necessary for us all to be idle in order that we should all have our mouths full of bread. What people who say such things forget is that what a man earns he usually spends, and in spending he gives employment. As long as a man spends his income, he puts just as much bread into people's mouths in spending as he takes out of other people's mouths in earning. The real villain, from this point of view, is the man who saves. If he merely puts his savings in a stocking, like the proverbial French peasant, it is obvious that they do not give employment. If he invests his savings, the matter is less obvious, and different cases arise. One of the commonest things to do with savings is to lend them to some Government. In view of the fact that the bulk of the public expenditure of most civilized Governments consists in payment for past wars or preparation for future wars, the man who lends his money to a Government is in the same position as the bad men in Shakespeare who hire murderers. The net result of the man's economical habits is to increase the armed forces of the State to which he lends his savings. Obviously it would be better if he spent the money, even if he spent it in drink or gambling. But, I shall be told, the case is quite different when savings are invested in industrial enterprises. When such enterprises succeed, and produce something useful, this may be conceded. In these days, however, no one will deny that most enterprises fail. That means that a large amount of human labor, which might have been devoted to producing something that could be enjoyed, was expended on producing machines which, when produced, lay idle and did no good to anyone. The man who invests his savings in a concern that goes bankrupt is therefore injuring others as well as himself. If he spent his money, say, in giving parties for his friends, they (we may hope) would get pleasure, and so would all those upon whom he spent money, such as the butcher, the baker, and the bootlegger. But if he spends it (let us say) upon laying down rails for surface card in some place where surface cars turn out not to be wanted, he has diverted a mass of labor into channels where it gives pleasure to no one. Nevertheless, when he becomes poor through failure of his investment he will be regarded as a victim of undeserved misfortune, whereas the gay spendthrift, who has spent his money philanthropically, will be despised as a fool and a frivolous person. All this is only preliminary. I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work. First of all: what is work? Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first kind is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid. The second kind is capable of indefinite extension: there are not only those who give orders, but those who give advice as to what orders should be given. Usually two opposite kinds of advice are given simultaneously by two organized bodies of men; this is called politics. The skill required for this kind of work is not knowledge of the subjects as to which advice is given, but knowledge of the art of persuasive speaking and writing, i.e. of advertising. Throughout Europe, though not in America, there is a third class of men, more respected than either of the classes of workers. There are men who, through ownership of land, are able to make others pay for the privilege of being allowed to exist and to work. These landowners are idle, and I might therefore be expected to praise them. Unfortunately, their idleness is only rendered possible by the industry of others; indeed their desire for comfortable idleness is historically the source of the whole gospel of work. The last thing they have ever wished is that others should follow their example. >From the beginning of civilization until the Industrial Revolution, a man could, as a rule, produce by hard work little more than was required for the subsistence of himself and his family, although his wife worked at least as hard as he did, and his children added their labor as soon as they were old enough to do so. The small surplus above bare necessaries was not left to those who produced it, but was appropriated by warriors and priests. In times of famine there was no surplus; the warriors and priests, however, still secured as much as at other times, with the result that many of the workers died of hunger. This system persisted in Russia until 1917 [1], and still persists in the East; in England, in spite of the Industrial Revolution, it remained in full force throughout the Napoleonic wars, and until a hundred years ago, when the new class of manufacturers acquired power. In America, the system came to an end with the Revolution, except in the South, where it persisted until the Civil War. A system which lasted so long and ended so recently has naturally left a profound impress upon men's thoughts and opinions. Much that we take for granted about the desirability of work is derived from this system, and, being pre-industrial, is not adapted to the modern world. Modern technique has made it possible for leisure, within limits, to be not the prerogative of small privileged classes, but a right evenly distributed throughout the community. The morality of work is the morality of slaves, and the modern world has no need of slavery. It is obvious that, in primitive communities, peasants, left to themselves, would not have parted with the slender surplus upon which the warriors and priests subsisted, but would have either produced less or consumed more. At first, sheer force compelled them to produce and part with the surplus. Gradually, however, it was found possible to induce many of them to accept an ethic according to which it was their duty to work hard, although part of their work went to support others in idleness. By this means the amount of compulsion required was lessened, and the expenses of government were diminished. To this day, 99 per cent of British wage-earners would be genuinely shocked if it were proposed that the King should not have a larger income than a working man. The conception of duty, speaking historically, has been a means used by the holders of power to induce others to live for the interests of their masters rather than for their own. Of course the holders of power conceal this fact from themselves by managing to believe that their interests are identical with the larger interests of humanity. Sometimes this is true; Athenian slave-owners, for instance, employed part of their leisure in making a permanent contribution to civilization which would have been impossible under a just economic system. Leisure is essential to civilization, and in former times leisure for the few was only rendered possible by the labors of the many. But their labors were valuable, not because work is good, but because leisure is good. And with modern technique it would be possible to distribute leisure justly without injury to civilization. Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the Allies was higher than before or since. The significance of this fact was concealed by finance: borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present. But that, of course, would have been impossible; a man cannot eat a loaf of bread that does not yet exist. The war showed conclusively that, by the scientific organization of production, it is possible to keep modern populations in fair comfort on a small part of the working capacity of the modern world. If, at the end of the war, the scientific organization, which had been created in order to liberate men for fighting and munition work, had been preserved, and the hours of the week had been cut down to four, all would have been well. Instead of that the old chaos was restored, those whose work was demanded were made to work long hours, and the rest were left to starve as unemployed. Why? Because work is a duty, and a man should not receive wages in proportion to what he has produced, but in proportion to his virtue as exemplified by his industry. This is the morality of the Slave State, applied in circumstances totally unlike those in which it arose. No wonder the result has been disastrous. Let us take an illustration. Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins: pins are already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined? The idea that the poor should have leisure has always been shocking to the rich. In England, in the early nineteenth century, fifteen hours was the ordinary day's work for a man; children sometimes did as much, and very commonly did twelve hours a day. When meddlesome busybodies suggested that perhaps these hours were rather long, they were told that work kept adults from drink and children from mischief. When I was a child, shortly after urban working men had acquired the vote, certain public holidays were established by law, to the great indignation of the upper classes. I remember hearing an old Duchess say: 'What do the poor want with holidays? They ought to work.' People nowadays are less frank, but the sentiment persists, and is the source of much of our economic confusion. Let us, for a moment, consider the ethics of work frankly, without superstition. Every human being, of necessity, consumes, in the course of his life, a certain amount of the produce of human labor. Assuming, as we may, that labor is on the whole disagreeable, it is unjust that a man should consume more than he produces. Of course he may provide services rather than commodities, like a medical man, for example; but he should provide something in return for his board and lodging. to this extent, the duty of work must be admitted, but to this extent only. I shall not dwell upon the fact that, in all modern societies outside the USSR, many people escape even this minimum amount of work, namely all those who inherit money and all those who marry money. I do not think the fact that these people are allowed to be idle is nearly so harmful as the fact that wage-earners are expected to overwork or starve. If the ordinary wage-earner worked four hours a day, there would be enough for everybody and no unemployment -- assuming a certain very moderate amount of sensible organization. This idea shocks the well-to-do, because they are convinced that the poor would not know how to use so much leisure. In America men often work long hours even when they are well off; such men, naturally, are indignant at the idea of leisure for wage-earners, except as the grim punishment of unemployment; in fact, they dislike leisure even for their sons. Oddly enough, while they wish their sons to work so hard as to have no time to be civilized, they do not mind their wives and daughters having no work at all. the snobbish admiration of uselessness, which, in an aristocratic society, extends to both sexes, is, under a plutocracy, confined to women; this, however, does not make it any more in agreement with common sense. The wise use of leisure, it must be conceded, is a product of civilization and education. A man who has worked long hours all his life will become bored if he becomes suddenly idle. But without a considerable amount of leisure a man is cut off from many of the best things. There is no longer any reason why the bulk of the population should suffer this deprivation; only a foolish asceticism, usually vicarious, makes us continue to insist on work in excessive quantities now that the need no longer exists. In the new creed which controls the government of Russia, while there is much that is very different from the traditional teaching of the West, there are some things that are quite unchanged. The attitude of the governing classes, and especially of those who conduct educational propaganda, on the subject of the dignity of labor, is almost exactly that which the governing classes of the world have always preached to what were called the 'honest poor'. Industry, sobriety, willingness to work long hours for distant advantages, even submissiveness to authority, all these reappear; moreover authority still represents the will of the Ruler of the Universe, Who, however, is now called by a new name, Dialectical Materialism. The victory of the proletariat in Russia has some points in common with the victory of the feminists in some other countries. For ages, men had conceded the superior saintliness of women, and had consoled women for their inferiority by maintaining that saintliness is more desirable than power. At last the feminists decided that they would have both, since the pioneers among them believed all that the men had told them about the desirability of virtue, but not what they had told them about the worthlessness of political power. A similar thing has happened in Russia as regards manual work. For ages, the rich and their sycophants have written in praise of 'honest toil', have praised the simple life, have professed a religion which teaches that the poor are much more likely to go to heaven than the rich, and in general have tried to make manual workers believe that there is some special nobility about altering the position of matter in space, just as men tried to make women believe that they derived some special nobility from their sexual enslavement. In Russia, all this teaching about the excellence of manual work has been taken seriously, with the result that the manual worker is more honored than anyone else. What are, in essence, revivalist appeals are made, but not for the old purposes: they are made to secure shock workers for special tasks. Manual work is the ideal which is held before the young, and is the basis of all ethical teaching. For the present, possibly, this is all to the good. A large country, full of natural resources, awaits development, and has has to be developed with very little use of credit. In these circumstances, hard work is necessary, and is likely to bring a great reward. But what will happen when the point has been reached where everybody could be comfortable without working long hours? In the West, we have various ways of dealing with this problem. We have no attempt at economic justice, so that a large proportion of the total produce goes to a small minority of the population, many of whom do no work at all. Owing to the absence of any central control over production, we produce hosts of things that are not wanted. We keep a large percentage of the working population idle, because we can dispense with their labor by making the others overwork. When all these methods prove inadequate, we have a war: we cause a number of people to manufacture high explosives, and a number of others to explode them, as if we were children who had just discovered fireworks. By a combination of all these devices we manage, though with difficulty, to keep alive the notion that a great deal of severe manual work must be the lot of the average man. In Russia, owing to more economic justice and central control over production, the problem will have to be differently solved. the rational solution would be, as soon as the necessaries and elementary comforts can be provided for all, to reduce the hours of labor gradually, allowing a popular vote to decide, at each stage, whether more leisure or more goods were to be preferred. But, having taught the supreme virtue of hard work, it is difficult to see how the authorities can aim at a paradise in which there will be much leisure and little work. It seems more likely that they will find continually fresh schemes, by which present leisure is to be sacrificed to future productivity. I read recently of an ingenious plan put forward by Russian engineers, for making the White Sea and the northern coasts of Siberia warm, by putting a dam across the Kara Sea. An admirable project, but liable to postpone proletarian comfort for a generation, while the nobility of toil is being displayed amid the ice-fields and snowstorms of the Arctic Ocean. This sort of thing, if it happens, will be the result of regarding the virtue of hard work as an end in itself, rather than as a means to a state of affairs in which it is no longer needed. The fact is that moving matter about, while a certain amount of it is necessary to our existence, is emphatically not one of the ends of human life. If it were, we should have to consider every navvy superior to Shakespeare. We have been misled in this matter by two causes. One is the necessity of keeping the poor contented, which has led the rich, for thousands of years, to preach the dignity of labor, while taking care themselves to remain undignified in this respect. The other is the new pleasure in mechanism, which makes us delight in the astonishingly clever changes that we can produce on the earth's surface. Neither of these motives makes any great appeal to the actual worker. If you ask him what he thinks the best part of his life, he is not likely to say: 'I enjoy manual work because it makes me feel that I am fulfilling man's noblest task, and because I like to think how much man can transform his planet. It is true that my body demands periods of rest, which I have to fill in as best I may, but I am never so happy as when the morning comes and I can return to the toil from which my contentment springs.' I have never heard working men say this sort of thing. They consider work, as it should be considered, a necessary means to a livelihood, and it is from their leisure that they derive whatever happiness they may enjoy. It will be said that, while a little leisure is pleasant, men would not know how to fill their days if they had only four hours of work out of the twenty-four. In so far as this is true in the modern world, it is a condemnation of our civilization; it would not have been true at any earlier period. There was formerly a capacity for light-heartedness and play which has been to some extent inhibited by the cult of efficiency. The modern man thinks that everything ought to be done for the sake of something else, and never for its own sake. Serious-minded persons, for example, are continually condemning the habit of going to the cinema, and telling us that it leads the young into crime. But all the work that goes to producing a cinema is respectable, because it is work, and because it brings a money profit. The notion that the desirable activities are those that bring a profit has made everything topsy-turvy. The butcher who provides you with meat and the baker who provides you with bread are praiseworthy, because they are making money; but when you enjoy the food they have provided, you are merely frivolous, unless you eat only to get strength for your work. Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. The individual, in our society, works for profit; but the social purpose of his work lies in the consumption of what he produces. It is this divorce between the individual and the social purpose of production that makes it so difficult for men to think clearly in a world in which profit-making is the incentive to industry. We think too much of production, and too little of consumption. One result is that we attach too little importance to enjoyment and simple happiness, and that we do not judge production by the pleasure that it gives to the consumer. When I suggest that working hours should be reduced to four, I am not meaning to imply that all the remaining time should necessarily be spent in pure frivolity. I mean that four hours' work a day should entitle a man to the necessities and elementary comforts of life, and that the rest of his time should be his to use as he might see fit. It is an essential part of any such social system that education should be carried further than it usually is at present, and should aim, in part, at providing tastes which would enable a man to use leisure intelligently. I am not thinking mainly of the sort of things that would be considered 'highbrow'. Peasant dances have died out except in remote rural areas, but the impulses which caused them to be cultivated must still exist in human nature. The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in which they took an active part. In the past, there was a small leisure class and a larger working class. The leisure class enjoyed advantages for which there was no basis in social justice; this necessarily made it oppressive, limited its sympathies, and caused it to invent theories by which to justify its privileges. These facts greatly diminished its excellence, but in spite of this drawback it contributed nearly the whole of what we call civilization. It cultivated the arts and discovered the sciences; it wrote the books, invented the philosophies, and refined social relations. Even the liberation of the oppressed has usually been inaugurated from above. Without the leisure class, mankind would never have emerged from barbarism. The method of a leisure class without duties was, however, extraordinarily wasteful. None of the members of the class had to be taught to be industrious, and the class as a whole was not exceptionally intelligent. The class might produce one Darwin, but against him had to be set tens of thousands of country gentlemen who never thought of anything more intelligent than fox-hunting and punishing poachers. At present, the universities are supposed to provide, in a more systematic way, what the leisure class provided accidentally and as a by-product. This is a great improvement, but it has certain drawbacks. University life is so different from life in the world at large that men who live in academic milieu tend to be unaware of the preoccupations and problems of ordinary men and women; moreover their ways of expressing themselves are usually such as to rob their opinions of the influence that they ought to have upon the general public. Another disadvantage is that in universities studies are organized, and the man who thinks of some original line of research is likely to be discouraged. Academic institutions, therefore, useful as they are, are not adequate guardians of the interests of civilization in a world where everyone outside their walls is too busy for unutilitarian pursuits. In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, for which, when the time at last comes, they will have lost the taste and capacity. Men who, in their professional work, have become interested in some phase of economics or government, will be able to develop their ideas without the academic detachment that makes the work of university economists often seem lacking in reality. Medical men will have the time to learn about the progress of medicine, teachers will not be exasperatedly struggling to teach by routine methods things which they learnt in their youth, which may, in the interval, have been proved to be untrue. Above all, there will be happiness and joy of life, instead of frayed nerves, weariness, and dyspepsia. The work exacted will be enough to make leisure delightful, but not enough to produce exhaustion. Since men will not be tired in their spare time, they will not demand only such amusements as are passive and vapid. At least one per cent will probably devote the time not spent in professional work to pursuits of some public importance, and, since they will not depend upon these pursuits for their livelihood, their originality will be unhampered, and there will be no need to conform to the standards set by elderly pundits. But it is not only in these exceptional cases that the advantages of leisure will appear. Ordinary men and women, having the opportunity of a happy life, will become more kindly and less persecuting and less inclined to view others with suspicion. The taste for war will die out, partly for this reason, and partly because it will involve long and severe work for all. Good nature is, of all moral qualities, the one that the world needs most, and good nature is the result of ease and security, not of a life of arduous struggle. Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish forever. [1] Since then, members of the Communist Party have succeeded to this privilege of the warriors and priests. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 22:31:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k455UwMP017315; Thu, 4 May 2006 22:30:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k455Uvrr017297; Thu, 4 May 2006 22:30:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 22:30:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Second law out the window? Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:30:55 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 May 2006 05:30:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k455Usvw017273 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Read the last paragraph. :) http://www.physorg.com/news65961016.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 23:34:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k456YHPe011303; Thu, 4 May 2006 23:34:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k456YFFA011292; Thu, 4 May 2006 23:34:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 23:34:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Paschen Curves & Pseudospark Switches Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:34:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4bsl52dn8qcbuvc5t8unek1pu5u65hhmpf@4ax.com> References: <410-22006533185650537@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006533185650537@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 May 2006 06:34:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k456YDfZ011264 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Wed, 3 May 2006 12:56:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Is there something else involving pressure going on here too? > >http://empl.ksc.nasa.gov/CurrentResearch/Breakdown/Breakdown.htm I would like to have seen the results when something other than argon was added. If argon really is mostly K + Hy then it could be a special case. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 08:31:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44FU28o030469; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:30:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44FEwsV019442; Thu, 4 May 2006 08:14:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:14:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=sAitkP+TPWBRsoIDhevTnXaLUsoZT8LncqlHeEW2UzTIRnW7yQsL8bIfDHjvFlZ3eq3MUgQgyqXXAfxxFcLtvk5K8/4tjwsQJlj9p+fWjoClQA9LNxYiAaTKmbFD95/wpszWXy3IeLrJleu4c2PlcU25TpcPTkr/cyRYJFoeQiA= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060504110655.01dde960@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 11:12:40 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: An Electric car for Wifey In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC19A03@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BC19A03@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: I'm a great believer in total independence from the grid where transporation is concerned. The essence of the automobile - and this is a psychological factor - is this total independence (physically total, that is; we're still dependent on the oil companies and their nice suppliers). In addition, we won't need to build more and more generating stations. Having said that, I see the hybrid concept as the best compromise; not necessarily having a gasoline engine driving the car, but having such an engine (possibly using a substantial percentage of ethanol) used purely to maintain the charge on the battery. In that way, the car is electrically driven, and the gasoline is used as a more or less constant-speed generator, when needed. P. At 09:59 AM 5/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >When electric cars are developed, the operating costs are going to be >compelling for households with two or more vehicles and businesses that >operate >fleets of cars locally. Even with $3 gasoline, electric vehicles are >going to be much cheaper to operate per mile. The obstacle will be the >initial cost of purchase >but volume should bring that down. > In the hilly area where I live, I can foresee a lot of regenerative >braking on descents, instead of wearing out my rotors and pads. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 4 12:31:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k44JVM56030272; Thu, 4 May 2006 12:31:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k44JVJfh030233; Thu, 4 May 2006 12:31:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:31:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=uvreZv4ZPQ5/Cz0xzwqfhQsFb8oGlJ3vT7MPQ/Ftv4ivz6/Ww2y2MLCqJa0mHFZnWfp4wuZfHRASCwPOwNResQNt8QGvQ4QmLw+QPnpO4zI/BSeQXMC/MbVpebCTmS6XhYqdaMKXvaZAvNGVybxwE2CDirsMrRWNMBApd+pCBEM= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060504152753.01e502e0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 15:28:42 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: but where are the nuclear ashes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060504122320.02ab1008@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060504122320.02ab1008@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Frankly, I'm sceptical; very skeptical. There must be fallout. And does she use a D2O wash? P. At 12:23 PM 5/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: >http://www.hippopress.com/060504/cover.html > >Cold fusion hair extensions (Offered at locations including NikkiLee & >Co., 250 Commercial St., Manchester,666-HAIR) NikkiLee uses a new method >called cold fusion that is more gentle on your hair and scalp. A keratin >based polymer is used (rather than hot glue) to attach the extensions to >the root. There is no heat used and it is suitable for fine hair. The end >result is a mane that is flexible and natural looking and feeling. Price >upon consultation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 00:04:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4574heg024314; Fri, 5 May 2006 00:04:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4574fPb024288; Fri, 5 May 2006 00:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 00:04:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:04:39 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006544101452555@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 May 2006 07:04:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4574dSL024252 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Patrick Vessey's message of Thu, 4 May 2006 19:40:12 +0100: Hi, [snip] >My challenge: how about a few simple protocols for reproducible experiments >to test some of the theories previously discussed here? Here's a relatively simple test to see if hydrinos are fusing with nitrogen to create O15 in the engine. Capture some of the exhaust gas in an upside down jar full of water where the top of the jar is immersed in a tub of water. Put a couple of bricks under the jar to support the edges, and a couple on top to keep it in place. O15 decays via positron decay, and the positrons will generate plenty of 511 keV gammas as they annihilate electrons. Therefore a simple Geiger counter placed near the jar should register a count rate well above background. After the jar is nearly full of gas, start taking the count once every 20 seconds for about 5 minutes. Before starting the measurements, remove the connection to the exhaust, and keep it well away from the jar, and downwind, while the measurements are being taken. O15 has a half life of about 2 minutes, so 5 minutes worth of measurements should be enough to determine the half life from the count rate if O15 is involved. Don't move the Geiger counter around while the measurements are being made. If the Geiger counter goes nuts and gets overloaded, then simply wait till the count rate drops to an acceptable level before beginning the 5 minute measurement period. If it is involved, then Hy + N fusion in the engine is a near certainty. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 01:06:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4586WFu024158; Fri, 5 May 2006 01:06:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4586VgZ024116; Fri, 5 May 2006 01:06:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:06:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 18:06:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4c1m52dul8amfjkmjd1cqod0oc87j29g5a@4ax.com> References: <001e01c66f79$c4c5c860$0100007f@xptower> <20060504141942.48356.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060504141942.48356.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.194] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 May 2006 08:06:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4586RwH023887 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 4 May 2006 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >There is a 'sort of' mundane explanation - mundane to >a Jules Verne mentality maybe - for a hypothetical >method whereby electrolyzed water vapor can act as a >fuel. It actually should be the starting point for >this discussion, and one of the Aussies has apparently >mentioned something similar. It is the simplest >explanation, even though there is definitely ZERO >orgone or hocus pocus. > >I will call it the exploding-plasma-capacitor theory. >Everyone knows that electrolytic capacitors can >explode when the applied voltage gets to be too high, >everyone knows that a *plasma* can itself operate like >(and be) a capacitor, of sorts, everyone knows that a >charged mass of water vapor at less than atmospheric >pressure can be a plasma, everyone knows that the >closer the plates are forced in a variable plate >capacitor - the higher the voltage. Not everyone has >connected the dots, however. [snip] This leads me to wonder. Suppose that energetic particles passing through a gas knock say 4 or more electrons off lots of atoms, with sufficient energy for each free electron to have passed it's "escape" velocity. The resulting plasma will be neutral overall, however the free electrons will on average be closer to one another than to any given ion, simply due to the fact that there are more of them. The question is: Does the repulsive force they feel from one another exceed the attractive force they feel toward the ions (due to reduced distance between electrons), and would thus the neutral plasma expand? Or do the repulsive and attractive forces cancel out exactly? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 04:53:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Br0qn027880; Fri, 5 May 2006 04:53:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45BqwRY027858; Fri, 5 May 2006 04:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 04:52:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=a4Az49DmBCxM1+yBH60VEyuRnNYjQIKdTPXxikYKrOxHzVqhsw4Jt91jLICPmIMG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006555115248153@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 05:52:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d8318d6b88a1e721fc62f6244269ec6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones wrote: >> ... >> >> Obviously no current will flow under these conditions >> of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable >> ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial >> vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling. >> Here's a good place to find a table-top engine that can draw vapor from a Fleischmann-Pons electrolysis cell, since what Jones is suggesting describes the "Exploding Capacitor" action at the electrolyte-electrode interface in these cells. http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-airplane-engines.html EBay has them for around $10.00 . :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 Jones  wrote:                                                        

>> ...
>>
>> Obviously no current will flow under these conditions
>> of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable
>> ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial
>> vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling.
>>
 
Here's a good place to find a table-top engine that can draw vapor from
a Fleischmann-Pons electrolysis cell, since what Jones is suggesting
describes the "Exploding Capacitor" action at the electrolyte-electrode
interface in these cells.
 
 
EBay has them for around $10.00 .  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 05:47:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45ClVih020565; Fri, 5 May 2006 05:47:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45ClUbO020548; Fri, 5 May 2006 05:47:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 05:47:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OFWegx7/pck7uiM7XU+euXXLcGPJEqoOL11dhWlMBlEKHjp3s82cZNhq++cLIixI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006555124719817@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 06:47:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400379f0e746806d2ac7eb34ab989c5b67350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The nice thing about those model airplane engines is that you can crank them over with an electric screw-driver or drill. Putting a D.C. motor on the drive-shaft could act as both a starter, and a generator for output measurement. OTOH, I'm having a problem visualizing Ed Storms using one in his quiet neighborhood. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/5/2006 5:53:29 AM Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Jones wrote: >> ... >> >> Obviously no current will flow under these conditions >> of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable >> ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial >> vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling. >> Here's a good place to find a table-top engine that can draw vapor from a Fleischmann-Pons electrolysis cell, since what Jones is suggesting describes the "Exploding Capacitor" action at the electrolyte-electrode interface in these cells. http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-airplane-engines.html EBay has them for around $10.00 . :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The nice thing about those model airplane engines is that you
can crank them over with an electric screw-driver or drill. Putting a D.C. motor on the
drive-shaft could act as both a starter, and  a generator for output measurement.
 
OTOH, I'm having a problem visualizing Ed Storms using one
in his quiet neighborhood.  :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/5/2006 5:53:29 AM
Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories

 Jones  wrote:                                                        

>> ...
>>
>> Obviously no current will flow under these conditions
>> of around one+ volt - were it not for the remarkable
>> ability of a piston engine to draw a powerful partial
>> vacuum extremely fast, and create this micro-bubbling.
>>
 
Here's a good place to find a table-top engine that can draw vapor from
a Fleischmann-Pons electrolysis cell, since what Jones is suggesting
describes the "Exploding Capacitor" action at the electrolyte-electrode
interface in these cells.
 
 
EBay has them for around $10.00 .  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 07:49:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45En6SD032005; Fri, 5 May 2006 07:49:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45En5AM031992; Fri, 5 May 2006 07:49:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:49:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060505144902757.B90132C00088@mwinf3101.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060505144903.00b9ca4c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:49:03 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Second law out the window? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k45En3VV031942 Resent-Message-ID: <9YBqHD.A.vzH.hX2WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:30 pm 05/05/2006 +1000, Robin wrote: > Hi, > > Read the last paragraph. :) > > http://www.physorg.com/news65961016.html ... which reads: ================================================ "It may be utopian to be able to offer people access to free and inexhaustible energy by converting energy with this technology, and this will certainly not become a reality in our lifetime. Nevertheless, the Umeå scientists have shown that it is possible, though only in tiny systems." ================================================ They have demonstrated a point of principle. How can they possibly be so sure that:- ------------------------------- "this will certainly not become a reality in our lifetime". ------------------------------- Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 08:49:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Fn2va004001; Fri, 5 May 2006 08:49:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45FmxVR003953; Fri, 5 May 2006 08:48:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 08:48:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lw4bk/PO3hDjE2JqF5t7kf8eX6npM2xfdts4fLf2Ihr8iL6PeyGSZy3hkpiXyING; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006555154843489@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:48:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fa5b876bd8ae3501a258b617942c6a43350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.61 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Seeing as how there are a couple of boys (13 & 14 and me) looking for a summer hobby, I ordered these, from this outfit in Michigan. http://www.rchobbies.org/ 4 cycle: http://h1071118.hobbyshopnow.com/products/description.asp?prod=SAIE056 2 Cycle: http://h1071118.hobbyshopnow.com/products/description.asp?prod=EVOE0400 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Seeing as how there are a couple of boys (13 & 14  and me) looking
for a summer hobby, I ordered these, from this outfit in Michigan.
 
 
 
4 cycle:
 
 
2 Cycle:
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 08:50:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45FncPW004356; Fri, 5 May 2006 08:49:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Fnbx8004337; Fri, 5 May 2006 08:49:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 08:49:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Second law out the window? Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:49:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060505144903.00b9ca4c@pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Too disruptive to the current economic architecture. Like with most anything... it's not the best system that is championed, just the one that is most widely accepted or easiest to keep the ball rolling with. Look no further to corporate-land for as many examples you want; enterprise software, standards and procedures, plant operations, etc. Hell, it's the reason the space shuttle computers are still 286's... In this case, the current world economy foundation is oil. Anything that attacks or threatens that foundation will be aggressively, zealously, and irrationally attacked in kind. Hybrid engines and E85 initiatives bow to the system in that they do not completely eliminate the key ingredient that would guarantee they would get on the hit list. How about a mainstream hybrid that runs off wood pellets and a stirling? Never happen, no oil needed. How about an E100 car? They already have flexible fuel car in South America that run on any percentage of ethanol up to 100%. The engine computer monitors octane content and self tunes relative to fuel properties, why are they not immediately available here? eliminates the need for oil. Like it or not we are being slowly nudged like a cattle to the middle ground as a transition step away from oil... gas prices, hybrid cars, E85 initiatives. Anything that could stampede the herd in any direction quickly will be stomped on like a narc at a biker rally. Out on the fringes, we can have our OU motors and cold fusion... we can be easily dismissed as a bunch of nuts. Step any of those too close to mass production and you find all kinds of 'difficulties' to moving forward; financially, regulatory, logistically, etc. There is no conspiracy against change per se, just highly disruptive or quick changes. Just my perspective. Sorry, a bit grumpy and cynical this morning... -john -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second law out the window? They have demonstrated a point of principle. How can they possibly be so sure that:- ------------------------------- "this will certainly not become a reality in our lifetime". ------------------------------- Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 09:03:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45G3Pfh014843; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:03:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45G3ML2014808; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:03:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:03:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505115749.03db5e78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 12:03:14 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Second law out the window? In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20060505144903.00b9ca4c@pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Look no further to corporate-land for as many examples you want; >enterprise software, standards and procedures, plant operations, >etc. Hell, it's the reason the space shuttle computers are still 286's... They are not 286's. The Shuttle originally used an IBM computer modeled on the PL/1, with 424 kB magnetic core. In 1990 they were upgraded to model AP-101S with 1 MB of ram. When these computers were designed they were the most advanced flight control system on earth. >Hybrid engines and E85 initiatives bow to the system in that they do >not completely eliminate the key ingredient that would guarantee >they would get on the hit list. How about a mainstream hybrid that >runs off wood pellets and a stirling? Never happen, no oil needed. It would never happen because in North America such cars would burn more wood than we grow on the entire continent per year. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 09:23:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45G52eD015910; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:05:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45G4xx0015857; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:04:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:04:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aS0OQXZlIYnO4bq+yhRxyBSaTgKtCdWZubOsBj+inPyrVlHueY1jwYMMTe6sBaeoTVGAxbyzNp1xGcmokFB1eW6XS0GdZKTviASLx3/Edz3Z1M9jU2oO9p20HhHLAdrHombG4jHU7wBpZkk3keKlOV/J6J2vMjSrH8hfgN+nDVI= ; Message-ID: <20060505160453.74435.qmail@web81112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:04:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060505142837.15177.qmail@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <2xRx4D.A.s3D.pe3WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why would a water-based capacitor would store a large enough charge such that a real "aether breakdown" results? Capacitor Material Relative permittivity (dielectric constant) ===================================== Vacuum------------- 1.0000 Air ---------------- 1.0006 Teflon -------------- 2.0 Transformer oil ------ 4 Glass or Mica --------- 6 Alumina ------------- 9 Distilled water-------- 80.0 IOW distilled water is a factor of about 10 above a normal ceramic. When this water is structured as micro-bubbles - a huge low voltage charge can be stored naturally. Obviously, a version of this methodology may precede normal lightning in nature. Why might the rapid breakdown of such a (large stored) charge result in "jerk" rather than normal accleleration? (at least for a few degrees of rotation in an ICE) Frank Grimer has the answer to that one, but basically the gist is that the breakdown of beta-aether is a higher order (power law) breakdown. Lets say that you charge a certain amount of water, in the form of a plasma capacitor, with 5 joules of stored energy. If that is returned in a normal ICE you can only get about 1 joule back normally from the heat, as the Carnot eff. is low (20%). This engine will never self-power. However if the breakdown can be arranged so that it is rapid enough and at a higher power law (i.e. "jerk"), then you can get back the full 5 in the first few degrees (5^2) =25* 20% =5) and then the extra one from normal expansion - for a total of 6, and consequently self-power can be accomplished with no combustion (hypothetically). Actually the Carnot eff is higher in the first instance, so the net total available may be closer to 10, but anyway... IF ... there is a higher order aether breakdown, then the normal laws of thermodynamics are thwarted. Is that doable in practice? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 09:33:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45GWtTd002362; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:32:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45GWqxw002332; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:32:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:32:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060505163250265.40BC41C00084@mwinf3008.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060505163250.009aeab0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:32:50 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Thu, 04 May 2006 19:05:19 +0100: Hi Frank, (Grimer wrote) > I would think that you do. I see the current as putting > the equivalent of a mechanical stress on the water and > "cracking" it open. These cavitation cracks could be at > negative pressures of up to 60,000 psi. Where do you get 60,000 psi from? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk I thought you would never ask. But since you have, let me regale you with an excerpt from our Southampton Conference paper, an opus so brilliant that one of the delegates approached us at the conference dinner and said. "That paper of yours. It was a hoax, wasn't it?" We nearly wet ourselves, laughing. 8-) ================================================= GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. EXCERPT ---------------------------------------- 6.3. The Relation between Pressure and Volume of Water at Constant Temperature ---------------------------------------- In a 'solid-fluid' hierarchical system both the nth order 'solid' and 'fluid' components can be considered as materials comprised of 'solid' and 'fluid' components of the (n + 1)th order. For example, in a clay-water system the clay particle structure and the water are the quasi- 'solid' and quasi-'fluid' of the first order. Dropping a hierarchy and considering next the water, the water molecules and the van der Waals space are the solid and fluid components of the second order. If this concept is valid then the van der Waals space can be treated as a fluid in a high state of tension and the water molecules as a skeletal structure in a balancing state of compression. An external stress on the water will be added to the internal stress to give a total stress and this value of total stress will act upon the skeletal molecular structure. Since the model postulates that the behaviour of each hierarchy is essentially similar. It follows that all physical relations measured from true origins must have the same mathematical form whether they are the product of a single hierarchy or a combination of hierarchies, i.e. they must all be power laws. Therefore let us assume that the relation between total stress, P, and total volume, V, for water is of the form P = - k.V^n where P = p + i, and p = external stress and i = internal stress applied by van der Waals fluid whence, (p + i) = -k.V^n log(p + i) = -(n log V + log k) dp/(p + i) = -n(dV/V) Therefore by plotting V(dp/dV) against p it is possible to determine both n, the power of the relation, and the negative intercept i, the internal stress. This was done for water using Bridgman's data taken from the International Critical Tables (Bridgman. 1928) which gives the relation between pressure and volume for water up to pressures of 12.000 atmospheres. It was found that n = 6 and that the internal pressure was of the order of thousands of atmospheres. The relation for 60C between the total pressure (taking the internal pressure as 3750 atmospheres) and the experimental points is so good (Figure 8} that it is necessary to show the deviations between the calculated and the actual values by a subsidiary graph in which the deviations are magnified by a factor of 10. Also. the fact that the power is an integral value suggests that the underlying mechanisms are relatively simple and the analysis of the relation into simpler parts should not be too difficult. ================================================= You will find the full Monty in the File Section at, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 09:49:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45GnBsV013524; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:49:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Gn9DF013491; Fri, 5 May 2006 09:49:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:49:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9007757.1146847746367.JavaMail.root@fepweb03> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 9:49:06 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: U.S. company reveals hybrid car plans Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tale Heart Jed, Lately, I've been reading more and more articles on the advantages of plug-in hybrids. I hope the trend continues. Perhaps the rest of auto industry will wise up soon. Paying $3.00 or more for a gallon o'gas is a marvelous incentive. See: http://www.physorg.com/news66039875.html "U.S. company reveals hybrid car plans" Perhaps Mark Goldes can help speed things up a bit, assuming continued funding of MPI projects proceeds to the expected conclusions soon. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 10:00:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45H0Ux7020198; Fri, 5 May 2006 10:00:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45H0TrH020170; Fri, 5 May 2006 10:00:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:00:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060505170024356.56DC11C00086@mwinf3007.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060505170025.00bc3180@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 18:00:25 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:04 am 05/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: > Why would a water-based capacitor store a large > enough charge such that a real "aether breakdown" > results? > > Capacitor > Material Relative permittivity (dielectric > constant) > ===================================== > Vacuum------------- 1.0000 > Air ---------------- 1.0006 > Teflon -------------- 2.0 > Transformer oil ------ 4 > Glass or Mica --------- 6 > Alumina ------------- 9 > Distilled water-------- 80.0 > > IOW distilled water is a factor of about 10 above a > normal ceramic. When this water is structured as > micro-bubbles - a huge low voltage charge can be > stored naturally. Obviously, a version of this > methodology may precede normal lightning in nature. > > Why might the rapid breakdown of such a (large stored) > charge result in "jerk" rather than normal > acceleration? (at least for a few degrees of rotation > in an ICE) That's fascinating info Jones. I certainly never realised that water had such a high permittivity. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 10:53:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Hrg8W022169; Fri, 5 May 2006 10:53:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Hrenj022145; Fri, 5 May 2006 10:53:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:53:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ZTzDhawjNs/v3lUWPG7skVr5H2coKJU46GwhbQEP7A6pkttemqgoR+6A5+QFLb0gMWHhDGPSWKtL8FMQFRrHdlUsSAePtVigiX9flO0k2rM1/peh0DCXPZG6osHN5PPcDhxf13t11tO62wZ59ZG5nifqGef6c3XiHh8bN8QPeOw= ; Message-ID: <20060505175339.79737.qmail@web81103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060505170025.00bc3180@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: >> distilled water-------- 80.0 > I certainly never realised that water had such a high permittivity. The key there is "distilled" - as even ppm quatities of ions change the situation drastically - so it is not that simple in practice to pull it off [plasma ultra-capacitor]. But it is another reason why argon might be the carrier of choice, in any future implementation of a plasma-capacitor effect - since it would add so little in the way of possible ionization. BTW in previous post there was reference to a Naudin experiment - which is NOT the BingoFuel setup - but instead it was the Pantone replication - which uses 80% water 20% gasoline as a fuel. That experiment was mentioned only in reference to the unusual plumbing - channeling some of the exhaust back to the intake. It was mentioned only by way of analogy. I think the best analogy for this: the "sine qua non" of the concept - which is a higher-order breakdown of aether - is possibly to be found in nature itself - lightning. Of course, few in the mainstream have seriously suggested that lightning could be at least partly non-conservative... except on vortex, of course . If there was any real evidence for an "aether breakdown" of this kind - especially in nature - it would probably make the PappaJo concept 'fundable'... even as far out as it seems to be at first glance. It certainly goes a way towards explaining some of the arc-glow-discharge anomalies which have been reported (PAGD, etc). It might even explain why the 'plasma spark plug': http://www.lanl.gov/opportunities/techtransfer/dsp_technology.php?id=551 has been said to more than double the noamal combustion efficiency of an ICE. Even the inventor/authors of this and other similar plasma plug concepts think ithe improvement is due to "more complete combustion" when in truth the effect may not be related to combustion at all and may operate via an aether-breakdown and partial "jerk". Irony of ironies - the effect may even be hindered by gasoline combustion - and be optimized with zero chemical fuel instead of the present assumptions. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 11:23:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45IMcmn005922; Fri, 5 May 2006 11:22:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45IMaKc005896; Fri, 5 May 2006 11:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Z6K7MS9Udwx5+LO5AvthIY2A5E1cQ9LNa9wIQcOSkmrHrdxlOvI6SRXkIeoluQeGqkXm2e8P8Wuc+dfzq6r468tdliLFXJpVMPnD9XQd8lLdd4crOClNrJiSw7p4isUiNTwKGEyXInkR/8CmUsTYqy2DbaU96XEAixMo1se8YVE= ; Message-ID: <20060505182235.38462.qmail@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-22006544152245967@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > Do you need any current, really? At first, the full implications of this observation did not dawn on me. One would normally think that to charge a capacitor, electrical current of the normal EM variety is required. And I'm not sure how Fred meant it, but Robin seemed to pick up on the possibility that the stored charge could be related not to normal charge but to epo's - that is to say: positrons/electrons instead of heavier ions. This makes sense to me. The low voltage charge in the plates is not charging the water-bubbles directly but instead is causing the normal epo background to polarize temporarily. This would mean that the bubbles may somehow be extending the normal short lifetime of the positron up into the millisecond range. One lesson from this might be - you want to place the cell as close to the intake manifold as possible so that the time-denominated decay losses are less severe. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 11:26:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45IQMQ0008141; Fri, 5 May 2006 11:26:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45IQLqq008117; Fri, 5 May 2006 11:26:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:26:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505142605.03db86b8@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505135358.03e0d428@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 14:26:12 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Last straw at Wikipedia, and the new-age definition of "neutrality" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19548468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7_5stB.A.r-B.Mj5WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19548468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The "skeptics" went bananas over at the Wikipedia "Controversy" article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion_controversy They refused to allow the following: "Cold Fusion researchers feel that they subscribe to the traditional view, that experiments are the standard by which all claims must be judged. (Schwinger 1991) (Beaudette 2000) (Mallove 1999) They believe this is fundamental to the scientific method. When a phenomenon has been replicated many times at a high signal to noise ratio, that proves it does exist, and if theory predicts it cannot exist, the theory must be wrong." They claimed this is an extreme and unsupported "point of view," and that it lacks a "source." For a source, I suggested "(Bacon, 1620)" but that wasn't good enough. They also rejected "(Schwinger 1991) (Beaudette 2000) (Mallove 1999)." I decided that any forum controlled by people who will not allow Bacon or Schwinger is disreputable, and I should not participate in it. One of the people there wrote to me: "Editing wikipedia now requires much more neutrality than it used to." I told him that he and I have different notions of what constitutes neutrality. And: "This statement asserting the supremacy of experiment over theory has been the bedrock basis of the scientific method for 400 years. The fact that any of these so-called skeptics dares to question this proves that they are irrational barbarians." Dieter Britz also supports this new age definition of neutrality, which apparently means "muddled" or "will go to any extreme to avoid reaching a conclusion." Britz said that Bauer is more neutral than observers such as Beaudette or Bockris, because Bauer refuses to say whether cold fusion exists or not. I pointed out that Bauer wrote that cold fusion is "without, yet, any satisfactory reproducibility" (p. 108) and that he did not acknowledge major experiments at SRI, Mitsubishi and elsewhere. Why anyone calls this "neutral" is beyond me. I asked Britz several times why he calls this "neutral," but he did not respond. Lore Sjoberg summed up the problem with Wikipedia: The Wikipedia philosophy can be summed up thusly: "Experts are scum." For some reason people who spend 40 years learning everything they can about, say, the Peloponnesian War -- and indeed, advancing the body of human knowledge -- get all pissy when their contributions are edited away by Randy in Boise who heard somewhere that sword-wielding skeletons were involved. And they get downright irate when asked politely to engage in discourse with Randy until the sword-skeleton theory can be incorporated into the article without passing judgment. http://www.wired.com/news/columns/1,70670-0.html - Jed --=====================_19548468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The "skeptics" went bananas over at the Wikipedia "Controversy" article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion_controversy

They refused to allow the following:

"Cold Fusion researchers feel that they subscribe to the traditional view, that experiments are the standard by which all claims must be judged. (Schwinger 1991) (Beaudette 2000) (Mallove 1999) They believe this is fundamental to the scientific method. When a phenomenon has been replicated many times at a high signal to noise ratio, that proves it does exist, and if theory predicts it cannot exist, the theory must be wrong."

They claimed this is an extreme and unsupported "point of view," and that it lacks a  "source." For a source, I suggested "(Bacon, 1620)" but that wasn't good enough. They also rejected "(Schwinger 1991) (Beaudette 2000) (Mallove 1999)."

I decided that any forum controlled by people who will not allow Bacon or Schwinger is disreputable, and I should not participate in it. One of the people there wrote to me: "Editing wikipedia now requires much more neutrality than it used to." I told him that he and I have different notions of what constitutes neutrality. And:

"This statement asserting the supremacy of experiment over theory has been the bedrock basis of the scientific method for 400 years. The fact that any of these so-called skeptics dares to question this proves that they are irrational barbarians."

Dieter Britz also supports this new age definition of neutrality, which apparently means "muddled" or "will go to any extreme to avoid reaching a conclusion." Britz said that Bauer is more neutral than observers such as Beaudette or Bockris, because Bauer refuses to say whether cold fusion exists or not. I pointed out that Bauer wrote that cold fusion is "without, yet, any satisfactory reproducibility" (p. 108) and that he did not acknowledge major experiments at SRI, Mitsubishi and elsewhere. Why anyone calls this "neutral" is beyond me. I asked Britz several times why he calls this "neutral," but he did not respond.

Lore Sjoberg summed up the problem with Wikipedia:

The Wikipedia philosophy can be summed up thusly: "Experts are scum." For some reason people who spend 40 years learning everything they can about, say, the Peloponnesian War -- and indeed, advancing the body of human knowledge -- get all pissy when their contributions are edited away by Randy in Boise who heard somewhere that sword-wielding skeletons were involved. And they get downright irate when asked politely to engage in discourse with Randy until the sword-skeleton theory can be incorporated into the article without passing judgment.

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/1,70670-0.html

- Jed
--=====================_19548468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 12:19:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45JIc7G006334; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:18:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45JIYc9006283; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:18:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060505191824650.9EBB61C00086@mwinf3203.me.freeserve.com Reply-To: From: "Patrick Vessey" To: Cc: "Robin van Spaandonk" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:20:29 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin/all, > >My challenge: how about a few simple protocols for reproducible > experiments > >to test some of the theories previously discussed here? > > Here's a relatively simple test to see if hydrinos are fusing with > nitrogen to create O15 in the engine. [snip] Thanks for your input. As I said in my original post, I've no first hand experience to suggest that Joe cells actually work (so no, I've not got one in the garage!). Whilst the anecdotal evidence out there is certainly of interest, what I'd like to see happen is some genuine science done on a functioning cell. As you may be aware, there is supposed to be a Joe cell workshop occurring after the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference in Salt Lake City, July 30 this year, with Peter Stevens demonstrating (hopefully) a working device. If no working device is shown, I guess that will tell it's own story too. Sadly, I live in the sun drenched North East of Scotland, so will not be able to attend the seminar in person. However, my thoughts were that if (1) we could get together some protocols along the lines of the one that you've suggested to test various theories and (2) a working cell *is* shown at EOTC then (3) we should be able to find someone trustworthy to perform the various tests on the working cell. I haven't yet suggested this to Sterling Allan, but considering how much personal faith he seems to have invested in the truth of these cells, I can't see how he wouldn't want this sort of testing to go ahead... Incidentally, is anyone on-list planning to attend the conference? Cheers, Patrick -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 05/05/2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 12:20:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45J1ldh027336; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:01:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45J1bXF027183; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:01:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:01:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505145207.03d924e0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:01:16 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9yCCkB.A.boG.NE6WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I use external hard disks to back up my computers. The other day an old one bit the dust, so I purchased a new 120 GB unit for 175 bucks. It is a compact model powered by the computer USB, so it is a bit pricey. Here is a comparison to another 120 GB unit purchased a few years ago: Old drive: Acomdata model HD120U2E2-54, 1180 g, 20 x 15 x 4 cm New drive: Western Digital model WD1200U017, 224 g, 14 x 9 x 1.5 cm - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 12:38:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Jbti0018661; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:37:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Jbs7M018646; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:37:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:37:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505153736.03decdd0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505153126.03d19330@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:37:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Ti gas loading cold fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k45JboZ0018613 Resent-Message-ID: <7wFgGD.A.MjE.Rm6WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: People should pay more attention to this. I added two more papers about it. See Section B, here: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/BARC.htm#BARCstudies There are some interesting comments about this work in Russ George's interview of Srinivasan (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GeorgeRthecoldfus.pdf): ". . . So we made fresh [Ti] targets, and we looked at them on X-ray film— and we saw beautiful spots. And the same thing, placed in front of our germanium detector, gave us K-alpha 4.5 keV and K-beta 4.9 keV peaks, a clear signal of tritium in the material. . . . Finally, we were able to show that four out of 1000 chips had very high activity at the microcuries level. Those chips are still preserved by us — and they still give this signal. For instance, when Douglas Morrison visited us at the time around August 1990, I showed him that. The moment we loaded one of those chips into the detector, the count rate indicated a very high level of activity, giving a beautiful beta [electron energy] spectrum. I showed him this beta spectrum, and asked him to speculate as to where it could come from. I even gave him copies of the spectrum. He has never talked about it anywhere, or mentioned it in any of his writings." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 12:47:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45JlKlP024038; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:47:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45JlHWU024017; Fri, 5 May 2006 12:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:47:26 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C83E93DF160CD9-126C-35B2@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Spin Valve Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We could sure use this in Washington, DC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_valve Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 13:25:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45KPMT3010468; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:25:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45KPLAx010460; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:25:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:25:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:25:28 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83E992F21CE68-126C-36CE@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505145207.03d924e0@mindspring.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505145207.03d924e0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell I use external hard disks to back up my computers. <><><><><><> We just settled on the storage system for the new MARTA IP video network: http://tinyurl.com/8tbjq http://www.emc.com/products/systems/symmetrix/DMX_series/pdf/C1304_Symmet rix_DMX3_SS_ldv.pdf 280 Tbytes for 30 days storage of 1000 cameras using MPEG4. Power required: 30 kW. Plus 10 tons of cooling. We *were* looking at 2 Pbytes using MPEG2. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 13:30:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45KUGLR013034; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:30:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45KUDYA012993; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:30:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:30:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ge4wSZGauXnD1MvUOAVSoKwbmgeqvb45Cxdw2Ts1c7ivaMSSZThFIzTKfZEwQLmk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006555202955741@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:29:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94087dc09456d3d0255f9676ef6b681501c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.178 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The easiest way is try something simple without profound theories is to employ an insulator-spaced stack of 100 stainless steel Fender Washers (1.5 inch diameter) on a nylon rod using 120 volts rectified with a full-wave bridge placed in a horizontal water filled and capped 2.0 inch diameter PVC with the rectified voltage applied to each end washer. That should divide each "cell" to about 1.5 volts. http://www.boltdepot.com/material.aspx?cc=12&cs=63 Vapor out one end, make-up water in the other. With or without voltage applied the metal-water interface Helmholtz Double Layer is a "supercapacitor". ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The easiest way is try something simple without profound theories
is to employ an insulator-spaced stack of 100  stainless steel Fender Washers
(1.5 inch diameter) on a nylon rod using 120 volts rectified with a full-wave bridge placed in
a horizontal water filled  and capped 2.0 inch diameter PVC with the
rectified voltage applied to each end washer. That should divide
each "cell" to about 1.5 volts.
 
 
Vapor out one end, make-up water in the other.
 
With or without voltage applied the metal-water interface
Helmholtz Double Layer is a "supercapacitor".
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 13:52:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Kq6f0023256; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:52:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Kq4j2023233; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:52:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:52:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:52:09 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C83E9CE95FB2E8-126C-37F0@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Thanks for the Memories Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The new "core" memory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAM Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 13:53:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45KrS8Z024257; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:53:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45KrQk7024233; Fri, 5 May 2006 13:53:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:53:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505164837.03d4b318@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:53:11 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives In-Reply-To: <8C83E992F21CE68-126C-36CE@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505145207.03d924e0@mindspring.com> <8C83E992F21CE68-126C-36CE@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <70ZfgD.A.l6F.Gt7WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >We just settled on the storage system for the new MARTA IP video network: > >http://tinyurl.com/8tbjq > >280 Tbytes for 30 days storage of 1000 cameras using MPEG4. > >Power required: 30 kW. Plus 10 tons of cooling. That's awesome! You forget that all those video feeds are going somewhere. Imagine how much disk space and power video surveillance consumes worldwide. I suppose it must take millions of times more disk space than the entire installed base of computers circa 1970. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 14:23:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45LNVgC006503; Fri, 5 May 2006 14:23:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45LNUo5006492; Fri, 5 May 2006 14:23:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:23:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505171449.03d19330@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 17:23:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Thanks for the Memories In-Reply-To: <8C83E9CE95FB2E8-126C-37F0@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C83E9CE95FB2E8-126C-37F0@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: >The new "core" memory: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAM Another example of recurring technology. AKA the corkscrew model of industrial progress. I quoted P. Eddy on this subject: "Contrary to one standard illusion, modern technology does not advance with breathtaking speed along a predictable linear track. Progress goes hesitantly much of the time, sometimes encountering long fallow periods and often doubling back unpredictably upon its path." http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistora.pdf I mentioned magnetic RAM in this paper. This version of the paper includes a photo I took just outside my office, showing a parked airplane. The caption: "A Piaggio P180 Avanti. The company claims, "The Avanti was developed by discarding conventional aeronautical thinking!" - http://www.piaggioamerica.com/, but ironically this design is reminiscent of history's first airplanes, the 1903 - 1909 Wright Flyers, with a canard wing forward and twin pusher propellers mounted on the wings." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 15:40:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45MeZjg010400; Fri, 5 May 2006 15:40:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45MeS6x010343; Fri, 5 May 2006 15:40:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:40:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Solar cooker? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:26:22 -0700 Subject: Entry to Guestbook ------------------------------------------------------ Hi all , I head the Physics Dept.in Gov. High School Atiela and run an N.G.O. for the promotion of basic Edu and Child- centred Dev.(www.geocities.com/orescameroon).Affordable solar furnaces constructed if possible using local materials can transform the lives of my people. In Bamenda where I live energy from petroleum and electricity, being monopolies (in the hands of one corporation) are used as tools to overtax the people. The people are getting poorer and poorer by the day and are resorting more and more to wood for fuel.Deforestation and its consequencies are already visible . The paradox is sunshine is abondant .In my own little way I tried to construct a solar cooker which could be made out of local materials for the cost to be down to the level of the masses.It was challenging but very interesting.Mine didn't work because I had difficulties with the mirror. I wanted to try polished steel for the mirror;I coudn't lay hands on it. I wanted to use pieces of plane mirrors;I had difficulties mounting them. I tried the silvered side of parcelling paper. The result was impressive but fell short of being reliable.(it wrinkles easily). I have not given up yet.We have adopted the solar cooker as our project for next year in the Physics Dept.Meantime if it is possible for anyone out there to construct an effective and reliable solar cooker to cost say, $80 to $100 my organisation can purchase them and make them available to the masses.Thanks Julius shenga Email: jshenga@yahoo.com Bamenda, North West Cameroon - Friday, May 05, 2006 at 10:26:21 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 16:26:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45NQ7mr031808; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:26:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45NQ5kb031781; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:26:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:26:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=EfniCSzF7qA9tyTOJMxBh337ZNPJA0sPvubh6enpzbrzyHHjdRGctR1YkkyoBx3y; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006555232640170@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 5, 2006 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:26:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d80b2c610313963b0e9daa76b34562aa2b4e508857176a6fc1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.99.229 Resent-Message-ID: <9iF6o.A.hwH.N89WEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forward by aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] From: What's New To: Date: 5/5/2006 1:44:11 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 5, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 May 06 Washington, DC 1. THE DARWIN CODE: WILL THE "INTELLIGENT DESIGNER" BE REVEALED? Our story opens with the grisly defeat of the eight members of the Dover Area School Board who were up for reelection. Behind their demise, we now learn, is a shadowy organization called the Discovery Institute, which is sworn to suppress the secret identity of the "Intelligent Designer." Just "teach the controversy," warns the founder of the Discovery Institute, Bruce Chapman. Otherwise people might think the argument has something to do with religion instead of pure science. He blames the Dover School Board. To convince others not to reveal the identity of the designer, the Discovery Institute has rushed into print with a new book "Traipsing Into Evolution," in which their legal experts analyze the impact of Kitzmiller v. Dover. 2. THE POLYGRAPH: THE ANIMAL THAT TALKS FREQUENTLY TELLS LIES. Unfortunately, so does the polygraph. It's been 18 years since WN wrote that the polygraph "cannot tell a lie from the sex act" http://bobpark.org/WN88/wn030488.html , and Congress barred polygraph use by private employers. Twelve years later the National Academy of Sciences concurred in "The Polygraph and Lie Detection," (NAS Press, 2003). Nevertheless, the Washington Post reported Monday that the CIA, the FBI and other federal agencies are using the polygraph more than ever. It is "a pivotal tool in the CIA's effort to identify leakers after embarrassing disclosures about government anti-terrorism tactics." 3. PUBLIC ACCESS: SENATE BILL WOULD REQUIRE POSTING ON INTERNET. A year ago, a new NIH policy asked researchers on NIH grants to submit their results to a public Web site within one year of publication. A leading advocate of free access, former NIH director Harold Varmus, said he would have preferred "required" rather than "asked." In fact, only 4 percent of grant recipients bothered. But a Senate bill introduced Tuesday would indeed "require" results of federally funded research be posted on the internet http://bobpark.org/WN05/wn020405.html . The Association of American Publishers opposes it, but the public pays for it -- and for publishing it -- and should not have to pay to see it. 4. CLIMATE CHANGE: FEDERAL STUDY RESOLVES DISPUTE OVER WARMING. For more than a decade, scientists reported an apparent discrepancy between rates of warming at the surface and in the troposphere. Warming deniers argued that it cast doubt on the whole climate change picture. Now the federal Climate Change Science Program, convened by the Bush administration, concludes that there is no conflict. Moreover, there is clear evidence of human influence on the climate system. In the meantime, viral diseases, including the West Nile virus, are moving north, and malaria is climbing the mountains in Africa and South America. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 16:41:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Nf75I005331; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:41:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Nf6ad005322; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:41:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:41:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=VKrFPjwGUnfnerimD0UhEPxBaZYdXAi6RpmJc4AecXvr3uva9hIMBL6QcEg4XFDj; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <21686129.1146872464914.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:41:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: aki@ix.netcom.com, vortex-l Subject: Re: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 5, 2006 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cf8a55837b93fe24a994366430fa516ae1910d751b2e54df6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Park wrote: > But a Senate bill introduced Tuesday would indeed > "require" results of federally funded research be posted on the > internet http://bobpark.org/WN05/wn020405.html . The Association > of American Publishers opposes it, but the public pays for it -- > and for publishing it -- and should not have to pay to see it. This is is one of the rare occasions in which I agree 100% with Robert Park. Even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 16:46:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k45Nk6rq007752; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:46:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k45Nk2gG007684; Fri, 5 May 2006 16:46:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:46:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Jed's wish Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 09:45:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 May 2006 23:45:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k45Njo8w007509 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Well it looks like someone has been following Vortex, and decided to grant Jed his wish:- http://www.physorg.com/news66039875.html :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 18:49:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k461nCNq001288; Fri, 5 May 2006 18:49:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k461nA7p001280; Fri, 5 May 2006 18:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 18:49:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second law out the window? Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 11:49:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20060505144903.00b9ca4c@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060505144903.00b9ca4c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 6 May 2006 01:49:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k461n7k7001232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Fri, 05 May 2006 15:49:03 +0100: Hi, [snip] >They have demonstrated a point of principle. >How can they possibly be so sure that:- > > ------------------------------- > "this will certainly not become > a reality in our lifetime". > ------------------------------- > >Frank Grimer Indeed. Furthermore, if it is possible via one path, then there may be more paths via which it is possible, which have nothing to do with the current method. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 19:05:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4625K8e009620; Fri, 5 May 2006 19:05:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4625Ipn009600; Fri, 5 May 2006 19:05:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:05:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=duCPmbnkcWQYP0nTUM1kmC0kB0H3zfSPYdaRYMqyRNdPA9IHshyM6hsA+PZ9fAWKHduWuAdt33XX6GbHARKXlcxVIfn/wnk+Ep1SnGwSN5a7gcV/VZ+4TLCQpQKv+dupKNfEdGfa9w5MniS5cP3YriRa0daJCoAJrNd9PBMZsyc= ; Message-ID: <20060506020517.60751.qmail@web81110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:05:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Will this Wiki Wash? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Quantum_Mechanics From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 23:42:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k466fjGa020209; Fri, 5 May 2006 23:41:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k466fh6G020190; Fri, 5 May 2006 23:41:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 23:41:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 02:41:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505164837.03d4b318@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >> We just settled on the storage system for the new MARTA IP video network: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/8tbjq >> >> 280 Tbytes for 30 days storage of 1000 cameras using MPEG4. >> >> Power required: 30 kW. Plus 10 tons of cooling. > > That's awesome! > > You forget that all those video feeds are going somewhere. Imagine > how much disk space and power video surveillance consumes worldwide. > I suppose it must take millions of times more disk space than the > entire installed base of computers circa 1970. > > - Jed > > hmmmm...I wonder how many homes could be kept warm in the winter by all the heat generated by computers. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 5 19:50:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k462oB74030817; Fri, 5 May 2006 19:50:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k462oACP030795; Fri, 5 May 2006 19:50:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:50:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=FEnu9LPOns+6zrzHHgkpxK4UhDBKl5YtG6oqIdqIz4TfSo4oM3HCazqikxWCQ9DNPsqrMxaSrGeklslNMKuuD/AhXo+iaulo3jKSfnhzxSkBQsaepyRF75N5JKU5wvtPJaswlRn6M71Ii9nKGNwaVEgkV/gVkiAhioGisOQjZmA= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060505223953.01beeec0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 22:45:28 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Solar cooker? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/67998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Some time ago I was in Pakistan on a solar energy project and I was taken out to a village where they were using - among other things - a specially constructed solar reflector, to boil water for tea, which they offered to me... so it worked really well. This was around 1982. The people responsible for this and other solar projects in the village, were, as far as I remember, the World Bank and/or the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA). I've obviously been out of this field for some time, but it could be that if you somehow get in touch with the World Bank, they may be able to help you. Hope this helps. Philip. At 03:40 PM 5/5/2006 -0700, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:26:22 -0700 >Subject: Entry to Guestbook > > >------------------------------------------------------ >Hi all , I head the Physics Dept.in Gov. High School Atiela and run an >N.G.O. for the promotion of basic Edu and Child- centred >Dev.(www.geocities.com/orescameroon).Affordable solar furnaces constructed >if possible using local materials can transform the lives of my people. In >Bamenda where I live energy from petroleum and electricity, being >monopolies (in the hands of one corporation) are used as tools to overtax >the people. The people are getting poorer and poorer by the day and are >resorting more and more to wood for fuel.Deforestation and its >consequencies are already visible . The paradox is sunshine is abondant >.In my own little way I tried to construct a solar cooker which could be >made out of local materials for the cost to be down to the level of the >masses.It was challenging but very interesting.Mine didn't work because I >had difficulties with the mirror. I wanted to try polished steel for the >mirror;I coudn't lay hands on it. I wanted to use pieces of plane >mirrors;I had difficulties mounting them. I tried the silvered side of >parcelling paper. The result was impressive but fell short of being >reliable.(it wrinkles easily). I have not given up yet.We have adopted the >solar cooker as our project for next year in the Physics Dept.Meantime if >it is possible for anyone out there to construct an effective and reliable >solar cooker to cost say, $80 to $100 my organisation can purchase them >and make them available to the masses.Thanks Julius shenga Email: >jshenga@yahoo.com > >Bamenda, North West Cameroon - Friday, May 05, 2006 at 10:26:21 (PDT) >------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 02:13:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k469DVRO025308; Sat, 6 May 2006 02:13:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k469DTIH025295; Sat, 6 May 2006 02:13:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 02:13:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RZZAA4SCTC0HqAFl3AYzgAz7o2jjLxNG/82CWEf3XtMqHifnI8PZS2erLUBtx1vk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656691318836@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 03:13:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403ed90afd3620648a36041b33a96984b9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.62 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Slight problems. The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery with 1500 ohm-cm water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity) would be less than 1.0 ampere. About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them. OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much either. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Slight problems.
 
The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C.
 
With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm
seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery  with 1500 ohm-cm
water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity)  would be less
than 1.0 ampere.
About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric
cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them.
 
OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors
doesn't do much either.  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 02:53:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k469rTpY017449; Sat, 6 May 2006 02:53:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k469rQbt017419; Sat, 6 May 2006 02:53:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 02:53:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GhJx5T26uDC4b+q3UfDMi+PQ8m5YOJd5R99IAjHbtsCN48FWDTgitEb6QY9gTRAp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656695316752@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 03:53:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940084e2991afdfd8298b7e1a057f6274cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors > doesn't do much either. > Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Helmholtz Double-Layer Interface in the Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is generating Beta Aether-Casimir Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor "Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect "gases". Maybe? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/6/2006 3:14:02 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Slight problems. The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery with 1500 ohm-cm water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity) would be less than 1.0 ampere. About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them. OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much either. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
>
> OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors
> doesn't do much either. 
>
Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Helmholtz
Double-Layer Interface in the Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is
generating Beta Aether-Casimir Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor
"Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect "gases". Maybe?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/6/2006 3:14:02 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

Slight problems.
 
The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C.
 
With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm
seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery  with 1500 ohm-cm
water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity)  would be less
than 1.0 ampere.
About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric
cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them.
 
OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors
doesn't do much either.  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 05:41:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46Cf2FB009438; Sat, 6 May 2006 05:41:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46Cf1dc009425; Sat, 6 May 2006 05:41:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 05:41:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 08:41:14 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C83F217F1537B8-19F0-42C4@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1PLHoD.A.ITC.clJXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder hmmmm...I wonder how many homes could be kept warm in the winter by all the heat generated by computers. <><><><><><> Insignificant compared to the hot air generated here. ;-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 06:57:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46DvXqW015670; Sat, 6 May 2006 06:57:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46DvVeo015651; Sat, 6 May 2006 06:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 06:57:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200605061357.k46DvT4p029448@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 08:57:29 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Will this Wiki Wash? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_754fd4bac09edb310b5eb148c1e67794" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_754fd4bac09edb310b5eb148c1e67794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jone posted the following interesting Wikipedia articl on Dr. Mill's Hydrino theory. See: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Quantum_Mechanics > Will this Wiki Wash? I noticed at the bottom of the Wiki article that it is catagorized as: "Pseudophysics" How can you "wash" Pseudophysics? I wonder if that was done intentionally, or whether they had no other choice in the matter. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_754fd4bac09edb310b5eb148c1e67794 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jone posted the following interesting Wikipedia articl on Dr. Mill's Hydrin= o theory. See:

>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Quantum_Mechanics
>

Will this Wiki Wash?

I noticed at the bottom of the Wiki article that it is catagorized as:

"Pseudophysics"

How can you "wash" Pseudophysics?

I wonder if that was done intentionally, or whether they had no other choic= e in the matter.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_754fd4bac09edb310b5eb148c1e67794-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 07:53:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46ErDKi020010; Sat, 6 May 2006 07:53:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46ErC2b019990; Sat, 6 May 2006 07:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 07:53:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DBkjBmE/rZ+nYYeWnqOp93MDVVaVq/LQetxpIqQ2XYvk+/DPUoLVYFtDPZASbMrTbseQiJMO2G973jI0KGHVsL+X9SYyCrReW9EGcvJ/7U6Po0V/QO8vUT8YAE5GJAhZsgfRWZ5aioTAbhHNRCzi9wZCVJ+2WGJdxaq9pho+HiA= ; Message-ID: <20060506145310.45709.qmail@web81105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories To: vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-2200656695316752@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much either. Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Helmholtz Double-Layer Interface in the Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is generating Beta Aether-Casimir Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor "Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect "gases". Maybe? Yes. There is big conflict between using the best dielectric medium (pure water) and then getting it to charge easily and rapidly using conventional techniques at low voltage. That is why the only scenario which works for the "Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect surely must have something to do with an surface induction effect (capacitive coupling effect ?) on the aether itself (the epo field). That is: by way of polarizing positronium and the sea of virtual positronium which is known to exist (known even to mainstream physics). It would be a very temporary and transitory thing, and probably would depend on maximizing surface contact in the cell and micro-bubble formation - and then the expedient use of the plasma "capacitor". This explanatory thread is not as far out as it may seem - (as are most of the other possible Joe-Cell explanations) and furthermore this is NOT "just" idle speculation - in the sense that it is easily amenable to proof - or at least in finding the tell-tale signature of virtual Ps disruption - which would be the 6.8 eV UV emission. The 6.8 eV value is the I.P. (ionization poetnetial) of Ps; and this UV signature would be the tell-tale proof that the ZPE energy level is being cohered (disrupted) in such a putative situation. Consequently - finding that UV signature would be the key first step in putting this on a scinetific basis - but this is achievable (with minimum funding). Unfortunately, my phone has not exactly been ringing off the hook with parties interested in funding this type of thing, and all indications are that the Joe-cell is likely to remain on the far fringe of science, pending some verifiable results. It's really too bad that the "orgone" thing ever came up with this device, if it does occasionally work as claimed - as that word alone is poisonous to credibility, given the historical shenannigans of Reich. ... all of which is curious, since orgone itself may well be just another way of saying "mysterious UV emission". And given the example mentioned in the BillB essay (of the nanobe culture) there is some reason to believe that orgone and UV ( from Ps decay) may be one-and-the-same. Try convincing a mainstream physicist of that... HA! there's the rub... they buy into virtual-Ps without any argument, but just try to take that to the next step - which is "extending the interface of the virtual and the real" ... one of my favorite pastimes... Jones > Slight problems. > > The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water > runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. > > With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, > unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm > seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt > battery with 1500 ohm-cm > water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in > resistivity) would be less > than 1.0 ampere. > About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all > of the concentric > cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the > anode instead of "floating" them. > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of > cylindrical electrolytic capacitors > doesn't do much either. :-) > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 08:16:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46FGBgH001581; Sat, 6 May 2006 08:16:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46FGA11001568; Sat, 6 May 2006 08:16:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 08:16:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=saoVSuNgUA576wi/6Ut5yWMjg6dGGwIz3sPaVFO4yMpvSlq5Dw0I2rQ7S7fFAzWl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566151547388@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:15:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a903e3c3bf487a79ae85633a2fc8979e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW. That Water-Solid Interface Helmholtz Double Layer covers a lot of territory. >From the bottom of the oceans to waves washing over the sands of beaches to streams and rivers (Grand Canyon Hydrinos?) to groundwater/clays. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/6/2006 3:54:03 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors > doesn't do much either. > Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Helmholtz Double-Layer Interface in the Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is generating Beta Aether-Casimir Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor "Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect "gases". Maybe? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/6/2006 3:14:02 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Slight problems. The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery with 1500 ohm-cm water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity) would be less than 1.0 ampere. About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them. OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much either. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW. That Water-Solid Interface Helmholtz Double Layer
covers a lot of territory.
 
From the bottom of the oceans to waves washing over the sands of beaches
to streams and rivers (Grand Canyon Hydrinos?)  to groundwater/clays.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/6/2006 3:54:03 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

>
> OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors
> doesn't do much either. 
>
Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Helmholtz
Double-Layer Interface in the Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is
generating Beta Aether-Casimir Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor
"Exploding Capacitor" OU Effect "gases". Maybe?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/6/2006 3:14:02 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

Slight problems.
 
The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C.
 
With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm
seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery  with 1500 ohm-cm
water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity)  would be less
than 1.0 ampere.
About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all of the concentric
cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the anode instead of "floating" them.
 
OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of cylindrical electrolytic capacitors
doesn't do much either.  :-)
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 08:50:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46FoPIL020371; Sat, 6 May 2006 08:50:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46Fhb7R016361; Sat, 6 May 2006 08:43:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 08:43:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kkdm2YHqpvr1JSptdW+N7UZz4gB4dUeOy1KLCh/0vRcrzM0UvnsZzWF7UfdQLnsJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566154314647@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:43:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940306bc84c784eb273a9dd1300b0803314350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.142 Resent-Message-ID: <9-1Gy.A.c_D.mQMXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones > > > Yes. There is big conflict between using the best > dielectric medium (pure water) and then getting it to > charge easily and rapidly using conventional > techniques at low voltage. > The Zeta Potential for ultrapure water against glass is 0.155 eV. What is the Force? Glass Cylinder Joe Cell? The 12 volt battery puts about 3 volts on the metal surfaces. OTOH CO2 leaking in will lower the resistivity of water to less than 18 Megohm-cm. Beta-Aether Force, Frank? Fred > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex-l > Date: 5/6/2006 8:53:55 AM > Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories > > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of > cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much > either. Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter > Metal-Water Helmholtz Double-Layer Interface in the > Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is > generating Beta Aether-Casimir > Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor "Exploding Capacitor" OU > Effect "gases". Maybe? > > Yes. There is big conflict between using the best > dielectric medium (pure water) and then getting it to > charge easily and rapidly using conventional > techniques at low voltage. That is why the only > scenario which works for the "Exploding Capacitor" OU > Effect surely must have something to do with an > surface induction effect (capacitive coupling effect > ?) on the aether itself (the epo field). > > That is: by way of polarizing positronium and the sea > of virtual positronium which is known to exist (known > even to mainstream physics). It would be a very > temporary and transitory thing, and probably would > depend on maximizing surface contact in the cell and > micro-bubble formation - and then the expedient use of > the plasma "capacitor". > > This explanatory thread is not as far out as it may > seem - (as are most of the other possible Joe-Cell > explanations) and furthermore this is NOT "just" idle > speculation - in the sense that it is easily amenable > to proof - or at least in finding the tell-tale > signature of virtual Ps disruption - which would be > the 6.8 eV UV emission. > > The 6.8 eV value is the I.P. (ionization poetnetial) > of Ps; and this UV signature would be the tell-tale > proof that the ZPE energy level is being cohered > (disrupted) in such a putative situation. Consequently > - finding that UV signature would be the key first > step in putting this on a scinetific basis - but this > is achievable (with minimum funding). > > Unfortunately, my phone has not exactly been ringing > off the hook with parties interested in funding this > type of thing, and all indications are that the > Joe-cell is likely to remain on the far fringe of > science, pending some verifiable results. > > It's really too bad that the "orgone" thing ever came > up with this device, if it does occasionally work as > claimed - as that word alone is poisonous to > credibility, given the historical shenannigans of > Reich. > > ... all of which is curious, since orgone itself may > well be just another way of saying "mysterious UV > emission". And given the example mentioned in the > BillB essay (of the nanobe culture) there is some > reason to believe that orgone and UV ( from Ps decay) > may be one-and-the-same. > > Try convincing a mainstream physicist of that... HA! > there's the rub... they buy into virtual-Ps without > any argument, but just try to take that to the next > step - which is "extending the interface of the > virtual and the real" ... one of my favorite > pastimes... > > Jones > > > > Slight problems. > > > > The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water > > runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. > > > > With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, > > unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm > > seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt > > battery with 1500 ohm-cm > > water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in > > resistivity) would be less > > than 1.0 ampere. > > About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all > > of the concentric > > cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the > > anode instead of "floating" them. > > > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of > > cylindrical electrolytic capacitors > > doesn't do much either. :-) > > > > Fred > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 09:16:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46GGUuA004575; Sat, 6 May 2006 09:16:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46GGRsg004538; Sat, 6 May 2006 09:16:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:16:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EdjjJcbSkEfvLF2xDYQ1q6YKnymH14dqJrJ5WHNkN4JhJWgYGJr2AKfjhKLiSqa2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566161613159@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 10:16:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94011c6bb5db9fb3666e66bafc623f6df5c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.65 Resent-Message-ID: <2d9Xx.A.2GB.bvMXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Solve that Liquid-Solid or Gas-Solid Interface Phenomena problem Jones, and you will have the answer to Ed storms' Nuclear Active Sites, CANR-LENR effects, Fleischmann & Pons, Mizuno-Ohmori, and all the rest too. :-) Fred Frederick Sparber wrote. > > Jones > > > > > > Yes. There is big conflict between using the best > > dielectric medium (pure water) and then getting it to > > charge easily and rapidly using conventional > > techniques at low voltage. > > > The Zeta Potential for ultrapure water against glass is > 0.155 eV. What is the Force? > Glass Cylinder Joe Cell? The 12 volt battery puts about 3 volts on the metal surfaces. > > OTOH CO2 leaking in will lower the resistivity of water to > less than 18 Megohm-cm. Beta-Aether Force, Frank? > > Fred > > > > Jones Beene wrote. > > > > > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of > > cylindrical electrolytic capacitors doesn't do much > > either. Unless the approximately 0.7 square meter > > Metal-Water Helmholtz Double-Layer Interface in the > > Cell under low pressure boiling conditions is > > generating Beta Aether-Casimir > > Force-ZPE-Supercapacitor "Exploding Capacitor" OU > > Effect "gases". Maybe? > > > > Yes. There is big conflict between using the best > > dielectric medium (pure water) and then getting it to > > charge easily and rapidly using conventional > > techniques at low voltage. That is why the only > > scenario which works for the "Exploding Capacitor" OU > > Effect surely must have something to do with an > > surface induction effect (capacitive coupling effect > > ?) on the aether itself (the epo field). > >.. > > > > Jones > > > > > Slight problems. > > > > > > The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water > > > runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. > > > > > > With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, > > > unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm > > > seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt > > > battery with 1500 ohm-cm > > > water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in > > > resistivity) would be less > > > than 1.0 ampere. > > > About 2.5 amperes would be attainable by hooking all > > > of the concentric > > > cylinders surrounding the tubular cathode, to the > > > anode instead of "floating" them. > > > > > > OTOH, treating the Cell as a stacked series of > > > cylindrical electrolytic capacitors > > > doesn't do much either. :-) > > > > > > Fred > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 10:09:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46H8uwJ030681; Sat, 6 May 2006 10:08:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46H8sVD030652; Sat, 6 May 2006 10:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 10:08:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OOsy3DvAk9ybWbMowqLVijbjiO8kRzkZvBOpFvD3OmZZIPf5RFc4VOJORo8OMp0b; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656617838340@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:08:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d634386111589f8f5ef700cbafb8384350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.104 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote. > > Solve that Liquid-Solid or Gas-Solid Interface Phenomena problem > Jones, and you will have the answer to Ed storms' Nuclear Active Sites, > CANR-LENR > effects, Fleischmann & Pons, Mizuno-Ohmori, and all the rest too. :-) > > Fred I really don't care about the theory if the (~ 6 cc) 2 cycle or (~ 9.0 cc) 4 cycle model airplane engines from RC Hobbies.org will run off a plastic or glass-bottle "Joe Cell" on my kitchen table. No matter what theory fits, there is only a few practical ways to get shaft power out of nature's energy sources. If they won't, I'm in possesion of $282.97 (inc S&H) worth of experience .:-) Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 10:42:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46HgHZw012461; Sat, 6 May 2006 10:42:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46HgFkb012448; Sat, 6 May 2006 10:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 10:42:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060506174212695.A9C231C00085@mwinf3006.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060506174213.00b9d6e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 18:42:13 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Will this Wiki Wash? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:57 am 06/05/2006 -0500, Steven wrote: > How can you "wash" Pseudophysics? In a washing machine made of Pseudymium? 8-) F. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 11:08:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46I8IRw024233; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:08:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46I8HBX024218; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:08:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:08:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Qyy/mqqVewohPl+R7950lc1VQDa8iMKzlo9DhRj1qT7UYadiznfGfgC5xPx91RkL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065661883227@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 12:08:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400e71a22743028d6d079561c157126918350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote. > > I really don't care about the theory if .....etc. > > No matter what theory fits, there's only a few practical ways to > get shaft power out of nature's energy sources. > Undeterred by the early Greek philosophy that in effect said that everything can be figured out mentally, Crookes' built a "Radiometer" that was the first Light-Insolation-Solar-Powered (LISP). A 2 meter diameter (tilted axis?) Radiometer-Generator sounds attractive. Using Buckminster Fuller's Geodesic Frame with glass panels one might make a Radiometer-Generator the size of the Astrodome located in Richard's Texas province. If it don't float away,No? :-) Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 11:20:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46IKeQr030257; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:20:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46IKdgo030241; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:20:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:20:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060506182032892.D9F99B40008F@mwinf3013.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060506182033.00b8f48c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 19:20:33 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:08 pm 06/05/2006 -0600, Fred wrote: >I wrote. >> >> I really don't care about the theory if .....etc. >> >> No matter what theory fits, there's only a few practical ways to >> get shaft power out of nature's energy sources. >> >Undeterred by the early Greek philosophy that in effect said that >everything can be figured out mentally, Crookes' built a "Radiometer" >that was the first Light-Insolation-Solar-Powered (LISP). > >A 2 meter diameter (tilted axis?) Radiometer-Generator sounds attractive. > >Using Buckminster Fuller's Geodesic Frame with glass panels one >might make a Radiometer-Generator the size of the Astrodome >located in Richard's Texas province. If it don't float away,No? :-) > >Fred I've often wondered how a Crookes Radiometer would scale. You seem very fond of calculating things, Fred. How about working out the relation between size and power output? 8-) Would one be better off with one big one or lots of little ones, or even a long cylindrical one? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 11:49:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46In8gB011024; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:49:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46In7lY011004; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 14:49:19 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83F54EB119445-1DB4-517B@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200656617838340@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-2200656617838340@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <9ZU9SC.A.0rC.i-OXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber If they won't, I'm in possesion of $282.97 (inc S&H) worth of experience .:-) <><><><><><> They use glow wires in lieu of arcs, n'est-ce pas? Arks might be important. :-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 12:10:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46JA3up021991; Sat, 6 May 2006 12:10:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46J3ZZX018702; Sat, 6 May 2006 12:03:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 12:03:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XWEa3ylJvi1oAlZrNleJQFJiAzozzBmN0uITPJboBstUW85uprqUk8PUt6uGE1WP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656619325150@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:03:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940404b8d8418b013b8d05b75066c17a5a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > > Would one be better off with one big one or lots of > little ones, or even a long cylindrical one? > Are you thinking about energy, or sex, Frank? :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Grimer > To: > Date: 5/6/2006 12:21:15 PM > Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories > > At 12:08 pm 06/05/2006 -0600, Fred wrote: > >I wrote. > >> > >> I really don't care about the theory if .....etc. > >> > >> No matter what theory fits, there's only a few practical ways to > >> get shaft power out of nature's energy sources. > >> > >Undeterred by the early Greek philosophy that in effect said that > >everything can be figured out mentally, Crookes' built a "Radiometer" > >that was the first Light-Insolation-Solar-Powered (LISP). > > > >A 2 meter diameter (tilted axis?) Radiometer-Generator sounds attractive. > > > >Using Buckminster Fuller's Geodesic Frame with glass panels one > >might make a Radiometer-Generator the size of the Astrodome > >located in Richard's Texas province. If it don't float away,No? :-) > > > >Fred > > > I've often wondered how a Crookes Radiometer would scale. > > You seem very fond of calculating things, Fred. How about > working out the relation between size and power output? 8-) > > Would one be better off with one big one or lots of > little ones, or even a long cylindrical one? > > Frank > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 12:15:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46IxfvE017238; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:59:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46IxV7W017166; Sat, 6 May 2006 11:59:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:59:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZBq+JMtbxCIrkVPaeJV8V1V7OairkB7UmKr4bd4v4XNLfaOS8jMLFRXHbzcLtb0C; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566185916342@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 12:59:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940975a267b2386bb72dd6906ac3958081c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.171 Resent-Message-ID: <-PnuGD.A.AME.RIPXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > If they won't, I'm in possession of $282.97 (inc S&H) worth of experience > .:-) > > <><><><><><> > > They use glow wires in lieu of arcs, n'est-ce pas? Arks might be > important. :-) > Translation please. :-) "To speak unto them after their own capacity, and to lisp the words unto them according as the babes and children of that age might sound them again. --Tyndale." Fred > > Terry > > > > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 13:08:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46K7uhm016841; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:07:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46K7snl016792; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:07:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:07:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QMUfEMCr+xutrWoAjsQkajVFv4HtdVgH0h5iMTRWgQq3vM+4E6bymDR5SCrfD26G; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566195853101@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:58:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94019492af3b9a57aa0ba400a765c747935350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.23 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Grimer wrote. > > You seem very fond of calculating things, Fred. How about > working out the relation between size and power output? > Actually at the optimum 0.2 Torr pressure for the Radiometer the kinetic theory equation for the number of atoms-molecules striking a unit surface area per second is: 0.25 * (N/V) * v *Area At 760 torr 300 K, N/V = 2.69E25 atoms-molecules per cubic meter 1/2 mv^2 = kT, for Argon-40 v = [4.14E-21/(0.5*40*1.66E-27)]^1/2 = 353 meters/sec. At 0.2 torr N/V = 7.07E21 atoms-molecules per cubic meter. So, 0.25 * 7.07E21 * 353 = 6.24E23 molecules/meter^2 per sec. Recoil mv = 2 * 6.24E23 * 40 * 1.66E-27 * 353 = 0.083 newtons/meter^2 force Not much torque there,if I didn't goof, Frank. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Grimer wrote.
>
> You seem very fond of calculating things, Fred. How about
> working out the relation between size and power output?
>
Actually at the optimum 0.2 Torr pressure for the Radiometer
the kinetic theory equation for the number of atoms-molecules
striking a unit surface area per second is:
 
0.25 * (N/V) * v *Area
 
At 760 torr 300 K, N/V = 2.69E25 atoms-molecules per cubic meter
1/2 mv^2 = kT,  for Argon-40  v = [4.14E-21/(0.5*40*1.66E-27)]^1/2 =
353 meters/sec.
At 0.2 torr N/V = 7.07E21 atoms-molecules per cubic meter.
 
So, 0.25 * 7.07E21 * 353 = 6.24E23 molecules/meter^2 per sec.
 
Recoil mv = 2 * 6.24E23 * 40 * 1.66E-27 * 353 = 0.083 newtons/meter^2 force
 
Not much torque there,if I didn't goof,  Frank.
 
Fred
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 13:30:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46KTuaL026797; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:29:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46KTrYA026774; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:29:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:29:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060506202948962.EAF621C00083@mwinf3103.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060506202949.00b57c54@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 21:29:49 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:03 pm 06/05/2006 -0600, Fred wrote: > Grimer wrote: >> >> Would one be better off with one big one or lots of >> little ones, or even a long cylindrical one? >> > Are you thinking about energy, or sex, Frank? :-) > > Fred As the other Frank says in that popular song, # This I tell you brother You can’t have one without the other # 8-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 13:36:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46Kaa1m029862; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:36:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46KaYx2029817; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:36:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:36:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060506203631162.279E05800086@mwinf3108.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060506203631.00b54a84@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 21:36:31 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:58 pm 06/05/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Grimer wrote. >> >> You seem very fond of calculating things, Fred. How about >> working out the relation between size and power output? >> >Actually at the optimum 0.2 Torr pressure for the Radiometer >the kinetic theory equation for the number of atoms-molecules >striking a unit surface area per second is: > >0.25 * (N/V) * v *Area > >At 760 torr 300 K, N/V = 2.69E25 atoms-molecules per cubic meter >1/2 mv^2 = kT, for Argon-40 v = [4.14E-21/(0.5*40*1.66E-27)]^1/2 = >353 meters/sec. >At 0.2 torr N/V = 7.07E21 atoms-molecules per cubic meter. > >So, 0.25 * 7.07E21 * 353 = 6.24E23 molecules/meter^2 per sec. > >Recoil mv = 2 * 6.24E23 * 40 * 1.66E-27 * 353 = 0.083 newtons/meter^2 force > >Not much torque there,if I didn't goof, Frank. > >Fred I fear you might have Fred since I believe that the mechanism of operation of the radiometer is a bit different from the one you seem to be assuming. Something to do with the edges of the vanes and molecules percolating and them IIRC. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 13:52:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46KqbPQ004405; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:52:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46Kqajh004386; Sat, 6 May 2006 13:52:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 13:52:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 16:52:45 -0400 Message-Id: <8C83F66296259C7-1CF4-4E3F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-22006566185916342@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-22006566185916342@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k46KqZ0f004352 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber > They use glow wires in lieu of arcs, n'est-ce pas? Arks might be > important. :-) > Translation please. :-) <><><><><><> Those hobby engines use glow wires, similar to what is used to start diesel engines in cold weather. The Joe Cell engines use spark plugs, standard Otto cycle ICEs, ie they create a plasma in arcing. It might be the small plasma in the spark plug which triggers the "José Effect". Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 14:10:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46L9iGD013907; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:09:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46L9gHn013874; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:09:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 14:09:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gs0sc/o4Q+5YibJEK9kqef58MpwdrdC2gp/o/x2TcKII883m9OlI4WOvOc7rUkR8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656621928174@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 15:09:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940871938365a0f8eff978305e0d0b55a67350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.144 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry writes. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > > They use glow wires in lieu of arcs, n'est-ce pas? Arks might be > > important. :-) > > > Translation please. :-) > > <><><><><><> > > Those hobby engines use glow wires, similar to what is used to start > diesel engines in cold weather. The Joe Cell engines use spark plugs, > standard Otto cycle ICEs, ie they create a plasma in arcing. It might > be the small plasma in the spark plug which triggers the "José Effect". > True Terry but we don't know if anything, or what is happening in the cylinder. If the model engine compression ratio is high enough (given the small bore) the platinized glow-plug might do it. I think using air is simpler than trying to cool closed system (Papp-PAGD) too. Check out the Otto and Diesel compression temps with these here calculators: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm Fred > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 14:43:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46LhWxD027520; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46LhVuI027505; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 14:43:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gxQ41prPF0F1Zl2sew6Tiij3QJzhSMuhzd0cGTInjDr8ATuGbqIPdBB3VE5GvqFi; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006566214323727@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 15:43:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404c6d23403fc2e8ae9422bf6767bbc5dc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.36 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote. > > Fred wrote: > > >Not much torque there,if I didn't goof, Frank. > > > >Fred > > > I fear you might have Fred since I believe that the mechanism > of operation of the radiometer is a bit different from the > one you seem to be assuming. Something to do with the edges > of the vanes and molecules percolating and them IIRC. > It doesn't matter much even if you bottle the gas striking a square meter of the vanes each second (4.7E-4 kg) and it comes out of jets at the tip at ~ 360 meters per second you could get 0.17 kg-meters/sec thrust per square meter which is about 16.2 times the (0.083 newtons force per Meter^2) I came up with. Fred. > > > Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 14:45:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46LjBqN028136; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46Lj9N7028119; Sat, 6 May 2006 14:45:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 14:45:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ua07tM+xpvowDvAyQaZXVy6cKh/2az6s2g6qGmqMMxeymhxiCWDRs/bv5FRDECmZe1sxy0Zx8xhXRGwZGDwciYW7NDcajko8F0osXKPxZ0JtQlAGIadXyY9Sg4JjP7CfIp5ZKLqxGCFHG0umK2R8g27u9SVmJ/FNgFrD4AqNxXs= ; Message-ID: <20060506214508.53714.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 14:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Aught-Six Y.O.L.D. ? To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OT: Political commentary on the remainder of the year 2006 "The Year of Living Dangerously" or the NeoCon sequel, Subtitled: will Director Goss bring down the Ship-of-State? In the spirit of fairplay, let me admit up front that a previous recent prediction - that for a major calamity or natural disaster for April 2006 was totally wrong - thankfully. Consider the following to be equally authoritative - i.e. screenplay amusement, as opposed to accurate prediction. Perhaps you remember the movie - the one that made Mel (the Mel with no-Diner) a household word, East of Oz. The title of that film refers to the situation in Indonesia in 1965, just before Sukarno's fall. There is some resemblance to the present situation in D.C. The back-story premise is that in order to stay in power, the elite will stop at no lie or no injustice... and innocent folks should steer-clear when politicos decide to "live dangerously." This focus-shifting-tactic, perfected by the Nazis... can take the form of little, harmless, or overblown mistruths - like winning the war on terrorism, or an Avian Flu pandemic, or it can be a bigger lie, like WMDs, or a vastly improving economy, or tax-cuts, or a "temporary but reversible" rise in oil prices, etc- but the clear message is: at all cost, one must shift focus away from the real rotten-core problems - like a trillion bucks down the drain and 100,000 non-combatant Arabs (women and children) killed, and for what? Are we getting cheaper oil? What would a trillion dollars put into energy R&D have done over the past six years? Usually, if carefully constructed, these little lies (aka "spin") work for an extended time period - in fact the suggested half-life is eight years; sometimes they do not make it that long however (randomness being what is, and all) or else John-Q-public finally wises-up (this happens rarely)... at any rate - the house of cards collapses unexpectedly. Some of those cards were already starting to buckle - Scooter blaming Cheney, and now fingering Carl Rove, and Rove getting the big demotion (he cant' be fired outright coz he knows too much). But Director Goss could be the proverbial straw... Notice that "they" [spin doctors] scheduled this announcement for a nice spring weekend, when most folks are not paying much attention to the beltway news. Back to Y.O.L.D. : Indonesia was/is under-appreciated as a soon-to-be rich country, now and then, particularly in population but with vastly under-performing natural resources - the envy (in potential) of both East and West. It could/should have been on a par in wealth/status with Japan, for instance - based on these assets. The dictator Sukarno, in a desperate ploy to stay in power - began playing a dangerous game trying the balance the East/West lust for foreign allegiance; staging riots and so forth but internally, there was the issue of greed and disproportionate wealth- the antiquated social structure... begging for equality (as in "Red"" equality)... i.e. Billy Kwan wants elevators ... All of this in the context of Yankee interlopers in 'Nam, wasting young lives on nothing other than the nebulous "red scare" - with Mao killing off the intelligentsia of China.. not sure who was more blood-thirsty. In the end, the "dangerous year" did not pay off for the Dictator-President, and his so-called "Guided Democracy" riiiight .... despite best efforts at spin-doctoring. Indonesia has only recently recovered, having only managed to replace one tyrant with an even more repressive character - Sukarto (with US blessing of course). We always manage somehow to pick the long-term loosers, and then wonder why they hate us so much. Sukarno tried in every way to shift the focus of mounting internal problems onto external affairs and the Red-Boogie-Man. He suspected that his ouster would not be pleasant - prison or assassination (if he was lucky) and the Commie's got in. One hopes that history does not repeat in aught-six or aught-eight if indictments don't come down sooner (especially in replacing one dud with a mirror-image dud) ... but rumor has it that the World Court is repainting Milosevic's former 'chambre' in green (favorite color of a wannabe "Environmental President"). Anyway, the other big beltway gossip this weekend is the revenge factor in the Goss firing. Will he remain the team-player and go down in history as the fall-guy - or will he "get religion" at the last second and start to point fingers as only a CIA insider can? This "coming clean" often happens with failing health. Inside sources say that giving Goss the axe is the dumbest of all possible stupid moves, but who knows what is going-on unbeknownst and in secret? After all, the Director did try to clean-up the "rogue elements" and actually booted many of them - so revenge is in the air already. And speaking of in the air (or water) the Avian flu, or some such miracle of DoD/Gilead genetic-engineering, may already be lurking in the Goss Florida swimming pool... Here are some contrasting facts about Porter Goss (courtesy of Reuters et al.): -- Goss spent 10 Bond-like years until 1971 working for the "Directorate of Operations," the most clandestine arm of the CIA. These are the guys who "used to have" the 007-license-to-kill. Supposedly they don't do that anymore. What Goss did, and who he did it to - is still classified info; but Goss was based in Miami for much of that time and worked in Central America and the Caribbean, including Haiti etc. He was surely connected to the eradication of 'Che' but no one is suggesting that CIA Agent "Felix Rodriguez" who ordered Che's actual execution, after Che had surrendered, was taking orders from Goss. -- He retired from the CIA after suffering a dangerous bacteriological infection that almost killed him in 1970. Thus another bout of infection would not be as suspicious as it otherwise could be. -- Goss was elected to the House of Representatives as a Republican in 1988 to represent a congressional district in Florida. He served as chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, helped establish the House Homeland Security Committee and was a co-sponsor of the USA Patriot Act. He is as NeoCon as one can get for a fairly intelligent person, considering his educational grounding (same as Bush). -- Goss is a multi-millionaire who made his fortune in Florida real estate. That can mean that he will have less to fear (for the future of his family) IF and When he does decide to "come clean." -- Goss came to the CIA determined to improve its operations branch and to recruit more agents with the ability to penetrate Islamist groups. He was not the architect of the infamous Euro-torture-prison set-up and reportedly wanted to ditch it. This could be his trump card (among many) -- He was born in Waterbury, Connecticut, in 1938 and graduated from Yale University with a degree in Greek classics in 1960 ! Imagine that. The irony of the Greek tragedy is certainly not lost on Director Goss. if Mary O. McCarthy's middle initial had been "A" one would swear it stood for Antigone... unless it was emblazoned in scarlet. And for a lover of word play -"Antigone" is pretty descriptive of the present situation in DC. Like Jakarta forty years ago - who knows what the year end will bring....agony or 'real,real gone' ? Signed, Harry Tuttle Reformed Sigourney-Luster and Red-Baiting-Existentialist Billy Kwan: "If it's in focus, it's pornography, if it's out of focus, it's art." Trivia about" The Year of Living Dangerously" : Banned by replacement-killer and dictator Suharto for its graphic depiction of his bloody rise to power (actually 'tame' compared to reality), the film was finally shown in Indonesia in 2000, two years after he was forced from office after 32 years of autocratic rule. Much of the non-English dialog in the film is in Filipino, not Javanese. For example, when Billy visits the home of a dead child, the prayer spoken is "Our Father" in Tagalog - which is one of the weirdest of all amalgamated languages. Linda Hunt (as Billy) is the only actress ever to win an academy award playing a man, no cross dressing or gender confusion involved. Not sure anyone really knows what is going-on there. xyx or xyz ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 16:44:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k46Ni2OT008543; Sat, 6 May 2006 16:44:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k46Ni0mo008525; Sat, 6 May 2006 16:44:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:44:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 09:43:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <94dq5298uqer0j7b1bk4nu4c477h7g36a6@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060505164837.03d4b318@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 6 May 2006 23:43:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k46NhrbQ008479 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 06 May 2006 02:41:34 -0500: Hi, [snip] >hmmmm...I wonder how many homes could be kept warm in the winter by all the >heat generated by computers. [snip] That heat is already keeping them warm. It means less use of other sources of heat. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 17:02:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4702K8H015365; Sat, 6 May 2006 17:02:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4702INW015349; Sat, 6 May 2006 17:02:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 17:02:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,GAPPY_SUBJECT,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <001b01c67169$7bab81a0$21027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Aught-Six Y.O.L.D.? Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 19:01:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6713F.7B3B73D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6713F.7B3B73D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6713F.7B3B73D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6713F.7B3B73D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. OT: Political commentary on the remainder of the year 2006 "The Year of Living Dangerously" or the NeoCon sequel, Subtitled: will Director Goss bring down the Ship-of-State ? Back to Y.O.L.D. : Indonesia was/is under-appreciated as a soon-to-be rich country, now and then, particularly in population but with vastly under-performing natural resources - the envy (in potential) of both East and West. It could/should have been on a par in wealth/status with Japan, for instance - based on these assets. The dictator Sukarno, in a desperate ploy to stay in power - began playing a dangerous game trying the balance the East/West lust for foreign allegiance; staging riots and so forth but internally, there was the issue of greed and disproportionate wealth- the antiquated social structure... begging for equality (as in "Red"" equality)... i.e. Billy Kwan wants elevators ...=20 All of this in the context of Yankee interlopers.. Howdy Jones, Fred called me a Texas "provincial". I resemble that remark. Now Jones brings forth Indonesia and Sukurta and Sukarno. Hmmm! Just = my meat because it involved one our local "boys made good disquised as a = Texan". Who ,? you say? How about a Texas Petroleum maestro named = Huffington, Ariana Huffington's ex. Famed for trying to buy a California = political seat. Seems thar was "gold in dem hills" of Indonesia and our = boy was just the man with the shovel.. However, in the great game one = must remember there are players and then there are Barrett Gold players. = The gold mine turned out to be " seeded". The geologist.( I use the term = loosely) responsible for the so called seeding brought much = embarrassment both to the regime and others. He accidently fell out of = the heliocopter returning him for questioning. Texas is full of great adventure stories like the contractor involved = in the house of cards described as the "Sharpstown Bank = scandal"involving almost every politico in Texas worth his salt. He also = "suffered " an accident while hunting in west Texas. Seems he rested his = bolt action rifle against a bobwire fence while attempting to crawl thru = it. The bolt action rifle " accidently" went off THREE times which was = sufficent to kill him dead for sure. An investigation by the state = concluded it was an accidental death.Why do you suppose so many = politicos choose to begin their careers in Texas? Nowhere else but Texas.. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6713F.7B3B73D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

OT: Political commentary on the remainder of the year
2006  = "The Year=20 of Living Dangerously" or the NeoCon
sequel, Subtitled: will Director = Goss=20 bring down the
Ship-of-State ?


Back to Y.O.L.D. : Indonesia was/is under-appreciated
as a = soon-to-be=20 rich country, now and then,
particularly in population but with=20 vastly
under-performing natural resources - the envy = (in
potential) of=20 both East and West. It could/should have
been on a par in = wealth/status with=20 Japan, for
instance - based on these assets. The dictator
Sukarno, = in a=20 desperate ploy to stay in power - began
playing a dangerous game = trying the=20 balance the
East/West lust for foreign allegiance; staging = riots
and so=20 forth but internally, there was the issue of
greed and = disproportionate=20 wealth- the antiquated
social structure... begging for equality (as = in=20 "Red""
equality)... i.e. Billy Kwan wants elevators <g>... =

All=20 of this in the context of Yankee interlopers..

Howdy Jones,

Fred called me a Texas "provincial". I resemble that remark.

  Now Jones brings forth Indonesia and Sukurta and Sukarno. = Hmmm! Just=20 my meat because it involved one our local "boys made good disquised as a = Texan".=20 Who ,? you say? How about a Texas Petroleum maestro named Huffington, = Ariana=20 Huffington's ex. Famed for trying to buy a California political seat. = Seems thar=20 was "gold in dem hills" of Indonesia and our boy was just the man with = the=20 shovel.. However, in the great game one must remember there are players = and then=20 there are Barrett Gold players. The gold mine turned out to be " = seeded". The=20 geologist.( I use the term loosely) responsible for the so called = seeding=20 brought much embarrassment both to the regime and others. He accidently = fell out=20 of the heliocopter returning him for questioning.

Texas is full of great  adventure stories like the=20 contractor involved in  the house of cards described = as the=20 "Sharpstown Bank scandal"involving almost every politico in Texas worth = his=20 salt. He also "suffered " an accident while hunting in west Texas. Seems = he=20 rested his bolt action rifle against a bobwire fence while attempting to = crawl=20 thru it. The bolt action rifle " accidently" went off THREE times which = was=20 sufficent to kill him dead for sure. An investigation by the state  = concluded it was an accidental death.Why do you suppose so many = politicos choose=20 to begin their careers in Texas?

Nowhere else but Texas..

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6713F.7B3B73D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6713F.7B3B73D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001601c67169$6406cd70$21027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6713F.7B3B73D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 17:03:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47038YE015771; Sat, 6 May 2006 17:03:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k470367L015748; Sat, 6 May 2006 17:03:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 17:03:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 10:02:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8udq52hoie576q1vt93d8lagpea0dhmsp2@4ax.com> References: <410-2200656691318836@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200656691318836@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 May 2006 00:02:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47033BE015702 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 May 2006 03:13:18 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Slight problems. > >The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. > >With the cylindrical configuration of the Cell, unless it was filled with 30 ohm-cm >seawater the most current attainable using a 12 volt battery with 1500 ohm-cm >water (4 orders of magnitude reduction in resistivity) would be less >than 1.0 ampere. [snip] If a hydrino fusion reaction is producing the energy in the cylinder, then you need very few hydrinos to support it, and just 11 mA of electrolysis current would supply them, less if water splitting is enhanced by hydrino energy release in the electrolyzer. (Assuming 100 hp engine). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 19:41:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k472fk1L020817; Sat, 6 May 2006 19:41:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k472fcFr020749; Sat, 6 May 2006 19:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 19:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=t+eQbDu/5l+iX3jAK9KnensdvXs0ZE+Ow0tKEx6Cd4m+rPVxuUXuY48frNLkA+6n; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065072413156@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Theories Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:41:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fadfb5463622f89745e6fa3f4f9101eb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.75 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote. > > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 May 2006 > 03:13:18 -0600: > Hi, > [snip] > >Slight problems. > > > >The resistivity of high purity (de-ionized) water runs about 15 Megohm-cm at 26 C. > > [snip] > If a hydrino fusion reaction is producing the energy in the > cylinder, then you need very few hydrinos to support it, and just > 11 mA of electrolysis current would supply them, less if water > splitting is enhanced by hydrino energy release in the > electrolyzer. (Assuming 100 hp engine). > Yes. And if the hydrinos are forming, it is most likely at the metal-water interface in the Joe Cell. Fred > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 20:12:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k473CIAO001680; Sat, 6 May 2006 20:12:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k473CH6A001671; Sat, 6 May 2006 20:12:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:12:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EEakoYk1Rd+YShXk1gStRJWuWj+yLsGSV8Tmqvz52PzJeZK2K2nxRGWxyJPh2NiR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065073125797@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 21:12:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409de6c67b8e4f76affdfbd002bce5f03f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.154 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Let's see, Air contains ~1% Argon plus water vapor/snow when the power transmission line corona losses are highest. http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/1996-04/9.html "Corona-discharge occurs around the conductors in high tension power lines under certain weather condition. You can hear this clearly as a crackling sound. It also occurs when the local electrical field around points, drops of water etc. becomes strong enough to tear electrons away from the surface or from the negative ions that are always present in the air. The free electrons increase their speed in the electronic field and release new electrons from other gas molecules. This is how an avalanche of electrons is created, in the same way as a snow slide gets started by one single snow ball. A snow slide lasts as long the hill is steep, and an electron avalanche lasts as long as the electric field is strong enough." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Let's see, Air contains  ~1% Argon plus water vapor/snow when the
power transmission line corona losses are highest.
 
 
"Corona-discharge occurs around the conductors in high tension power lines under certain weather condition. You can hear this clearly as a crackling sound. It also occurs when the local electrical field around points, drops of water etc. becomes strong enough to tear electrons away from the surface or from the negative ions that are always present in the air. The free electrons increase their speed in the electronic field and release new electrons from other gas molecules. This is how an avalanche of electrons is created, in the same way as a snow slide gets started by one single snow ball. A snow slide lasts as long the hill is steep, and an electron avalanche lasts as long as the electric field is strong enough."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 21:02:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4741xlb019846; Sat, 6 May 2006 21:01:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4741vfD019836; Sat, 6 May 2006 21:01:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 21:01:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mh5hUfdNDIawWiqQ/RkdjGID0spx35WgJ/tBVl/hJwG6ls+FveTHVRahTXbLs0TW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065074144375@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:01:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94045b1224702ae96c6a539dcdf441c8b29350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.238 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Honeywell "Environizer" room air purifier has a fan unlike the Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze". A tea kettle steamer next to it and a hose to the intake of an ICE, Robin? Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/6/2006 9:12:54 PM Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Let's see, Air contains ~1% Argon plus water vapor/snow when the power transmission line corona losses are highest. http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/1996-04/9.html "Corona-discharge occurs around the conductors in high tension power lines under certain weather condition. You can hear this clearly as a crackling sound. It also occurs when the local electrical field around points, drops of water etc. becomes strong enough to tear electrons away from the surface or from the negative ions that are always present in the air. The free electrons increase their speed in the electronic field and release new electrons from other gas molecules. This is how an avalanche of electrons is created, in the same way as a snow slide gets started by one single snow ball. A snow slide lasts as long the hill is steep, and an electron avalanche lasts as long as the electric field is strong enough." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Honeywell "Environizer" room air purifier has a fan
unlike the Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze".
A  tea kettle steamer next to it and a hose to the intake of
an ICE, Robin?
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/6/2006 9:12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos

Let's see, Air contains  ~1% Argon plus water vapor/snow when the
power transmission line corona losses are highest.
 
 
"Corona-discharge occurs around the conductors in high tension power lines under certain weather condition. You can hear this clearly as a crackling sound. It also occurs when the local electrical field around points, drops of water etc. becomes strong enough to tear electrons away from the surface or from the negative ions that are always present in the air. The free electrons increase their speed in the electronic field and release new electrons from other gas molecules. This is how an avalanche of electrons is created, in the same way as a snow slide gets started by one single snow ball. A snow slide lasts as long the hill is steep, and an electron avalanche lasts as long as the electric field is strong enough."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 21:18:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k474HqRj024916; Sat, 6 May 2006 21:17:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k474HosZ024888; Sat, 6 May 2006 21:17:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 21:17:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:17:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0rsq52t64ufbos2iaps74juit1mlbckspg@4ax.com> References: <410-220065074144375@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220065074144375@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 May 2006 04:17:46 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k474Hlsk024848 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 May 2006 22:01:44 -0600: Hi Fred, [snip] >The Honeywell "Environizer" room air purifier has a fan >unlike the Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze". >A tea kettle steamer next to it and a hose to the intake of >an ICE, Robin? [snip] High voltage is useful if one is trying to create EVs (Shoulders), or trying to ionize O to O++ as a Mills catalyst. However if one is trying to create hydrinos, and depending on electrolysis for it, and already has one or more alternative Mills catalysts, then HV is just a waste of energy as electrolysis itself already occurs at 1.48 V, so anything beyond that is just converted to heat. Consequently whether or not to use HV depends on what you are trying to achieve, and how. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 22:46:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k475kfQc020643; Sat, 6 May 2006 22:46:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k475kdU7020631; Sat, 6 May 2006 22:46:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 22:46:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=PW5+Ex4nnBueGLV70HmORUzUR4oxVkhEDv6apqagzIHsdIaRuSzYiox6lV/3JdCYQmThtpBElIYwSzKAvnVELSnbkVxD1ZR8KFXfWz9WhK3NiuLqF/IxrfcbfiAkivTocvmW0fyVOZvY2Mf8TwKZB+I3E9+aCRSHLv5UfrrzLJg= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 01:46:38 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Test to vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_97304_23525422.1146980798241" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_97304_23525422.1146980798241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vos, Please let me know if this is operational. Thank you, HJ ------=_Part_97304_23525422.1146980798241 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vos,
 
   Please let me know if this is operational.
 
            Tha= nk you,
 
           &nbs= p;   HJ
------=_Part_97304_23525422.1146980798241-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 23:02:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4762UOW026949; Sat, 6 May 2006 23:02:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4762PGE026924; Sat, 6 May 2006 23:02:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:02:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=YTHLmDpjfFL0TynstfuE7xw28HQhTR+vvJhbs0dFqjj1X6dNK1EGJj+aKUdhk/nvIjXCif07iQQSST2sCj3FitN9lo4tnH88Wb2klSv9GZRQN9FClPziou1pJ9EY/F3yniWraoGfyET1LaEfaD3j729D1xqs708bX5D+oxrb9cE= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 02:02:20 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OOps....rsvp this works..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_97588_18397910.1146981740824" Resent-Message-ID: <1ddG2.A.okG.w1YXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_97588_18397910.1146981740824 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Folks, Please let your people know there is a celebration of the 150th Year anniversary of Nikola Tesla. Call up the web site..... WE NEED better web support..... Any college and high school students, please help out. This is a very short time line..... July 10 2006 is the date.... The only thing that can be promised ...... the effort will not be dull or boring..... unless you choose so! Light up the site= : www.nikolateslainventorsclub.com Please. Spead the word informally. POST SCRIPT IF YOU ARE AN HISTORIAN, INVENTOR, ENGINEER, STUDENT,SCHOLAR OR JUST PLAIN INTERESTED ........ COME ON OUT AND BE PART! MEDIA, COMMUNICATIONS, FILM, MUSIC, ART AND HUMANISTS ....THE DOOR IS OPEN. ------=_Part_97588_18397910.1146981740824 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Folks,
 
  Please let your people know there is a celebration of the 150th= Year anniversary of Nikola Tesla.   Call up the web site..... WE= NEED better web support.....  Any college and high school students, p= lease help out.=20
    This is a very short time line.....   Jul= y 10 2006 is the date....
 
      The only thing that can be promised ...= ...   the effort will not be dull or boring..... unless you = choose so!
 
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        Light up the site:
 
 
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Please.  Spead the word informally.
 
 
   POST SCRIPT
 
        IF YOU ARE AN HISTORIAN, IN= VENTOR, ENGINEER, STUDENT,SCHOLAR OR JUST PLAIN INTERESTED ........ CO= ME ON OUT AND BE PART!  MEDIA, COMMUNICATIONS, FILM, MUSIC, ART A= ND HUMANISTS ....THE DOOR IS OPEN. 
------=_Part_97588_18397910.1146981740824-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 6 23:04:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4763tYx027885; Sat, 6 May 2006 23:03:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4763rn2027867; Sat, 6 May 2006 23:03:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:03:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nV2+LY+96yigL0KgYtxDQrzhhL00XiIrVgKXK1FyCn0CF9OxW8kSBIngZ1E1WUZqDiqHq6FRmsnG49q891vbVGUlHfdwPlTQCKQqZ1v9d72YQifP0FmQZ6fbanSvIYV/dc1HOKMT+bNosmNTP3dieJoYcRgZwR1QV571ikT1wnQ= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 02:03:52 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: OOps....rsvp this works..... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_97600_16382884.1146981832128" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_97600_16382884.1146981832128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: john herman Date: May 7, 2006 2:02 AM Subject: OOps....rsvp this works..... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Dear Folks, Please let your people know there is a celebration of the 150th Year anniversary of Nikola Tesla. Call up the web site..... WE NEED better web support..... Any college and high school students, please help out. This is a very short time line..... July 10 2006 is the date.... The only thing that can be promised ...... the effort will not be dull or boring..... unless you choose so! Light up the site= : www.nikolateslainventorsclub.com Please. Spead the word informally. POST SCRIPT IF YOU ARE AN HISTORIAN, INVENTOR, ENGINEER, STUDENT,SCHOLAR OR JUST PLAIN INTERESTED ........ COME ON OUT AND BE PART! MEDIA, COMMUNICATIONS, FILM, MUSIC, ART AND HUMANISTS ....THE DOOR IS OPEN. ------=_Part_97600_16382884.1146981832128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: john herman <hermajohn@gmail.com>
Date: May 7, 2006 2:= 02 AM
Subject: OOps....rsvp this works.....
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Dear Folks,
 
  Please let your people know there is a celebration of the 150th= Year anniversary of Nikola Tesla.   Call up the web site..... WE= NEED better web support.....  Any college and high school students, p= lease help out.=20
    This is a very short time line.....   Jul= y 10 2006 is the date....
 
      The only thing that can be promised ...= ...   the effort will not be dull or boring..... unless you = choose so!
 
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        Light up the site:
 
 
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Please.  Spead the word informally.
 
 
   POST SCRIPT
 
        IF YOU ARE AN HISTORIAN, IN= VENTOR, ENGINEER, STUDENT,SCHOLAR OR JUST PLAIN INTERESTED ........ CO= ME ON OUT AND BE PART!  MEDIA, COMMUNICATIONS, FILM, MUSIC, ART A= ND HUMANISTS ....THE DOOR IS OPEN. 
------=_Part_97600_16382884.1146981832128-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 03:04:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47A4Hie021871; Sun, 7 May 2006 03:04:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47A4Fx6021843; Sun, 7 May 2006 03:04:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 03:04:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nRsCzLW/AGNktVaM1vlqqTMXzQk7DNTcWDlc4E3V3IQUDLvBLnkUMO3Fvg5LOKst; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065071041501@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 04:04:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c0db6718c83eff71b04e24536d5d88b5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.196 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you get more hydrinos using 120 volts AC 8 watts than using 1.48 volts DC at 10 amperes (14.8 watts) who cares? :-) http://support.radioshack.com/support_radios/doc69/69948.pdf Robin wrote: > > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 May 2006 > 22:01:44 -0600: > Hi Fred, > [snip] > >The Honeywell "Environizer" room air purifier has a fan > >unlike the Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze". > >A tea kettle steamer next to it and a hose to the intake of > >an ICE, Robin? > [snip] > High voltage is useful if one is trying to create EVs (Shoulders), > or trying to ionize O to O++ as a Mills catalyst. However if one > is trying to create hydrinos, and depending on electrolysis for > it, and already has one or more alternative Mills catalysts, then > HV is just a waste of energy as electrolysis itself already occurs > at 1.48 V, so anything beyond that is just converted to heat. > > Consequently whether or not to use HV depends on what you are > trying to achieve, and how. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 03:36:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47AZqH2000525; Sun, 7 May 2006 03:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47AZpsY000511; Sun, 7 May 2006 03:35:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 03:35:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IWK4Bg//NwFXJAya0Uv4jvwB/xDRJ2tf9pR73fGTjjJlU+LYv4wGdBkk/Fi0CoGO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006507103542965@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydroxyls (OH) Argon & Hydrinos Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 04:35:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a7bff4193eb268ff69cbbc8d43b7aea1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.162 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The neutral Argon-40 (Z = 18) attached to the hydroxyl (OH) radical (Z of O = 8, H = 1) released at the anode of an electrolysis cell may release a hydrino in the combustion cylinder of an ICE. If so, the vapor from bottled Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH drawn into the cylinder where it dissociates into 2 OH upon compression-ignition might prove interesting. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The  neutral Argon-40 (Z = 18) attached to the hydroxyl (OH) radical
(Z of O = 8, H = 1) released at the anode of an electrolysis cell may
release a hydrino in the combustion cylinder of an ICE.
If so, the vapor from bottled Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH drawn into the
cylinder where it dissociates into 2 OH upon compression-ignition might prove interesting.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 04:47:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47Ble4b030596; Sun, 7 May 2006 04:47:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47Blc1q030579; Sun, 7 May 2006 04:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 04:47:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060507114730957.E9C78580008C@mwinf3112.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060507114732.00b9df50@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 12:47:32 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:43 am 07/05/2006 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 06 May 2006 02:41:34 >-0500: >Hi, >[snip] >>hmmmm...I wonder how many homes could be kept warm in the winter by all the >>heat generated by computers. >[snip] >That heat is already keeping them warm. It means less use of other >sources of heat. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Well said Robin. :-) I'm sick a tired of pointing out to my scientifically illiterate relatives that in the winter it costs nothing to run the electrical devices in our house since thermostats automatically turn down the electric heating. Obviously, if one has an alternative much cheaper form of space heating then some savings can be made by switching off. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 07:38:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47EcfJQ007747; Sun, 7 May 2006 07:38:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47EccJu007723; Sun, 7 May 2006 07:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 07:38:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=MaBkFUt4Jo2yvFYfrcyiXTqcwZtQPPVYq44cs7J3yA59szqB+AlkXQGjfHQiP/CO; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <20352145.1147012717415.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:38:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cea7d8db638ec9fba38eef793daf109840ab065f23fdadbf7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank wrote: >I'm sick a tired of pointing out to my scientifically illiterate >relatives that in the winter it costs nothing to run the >electrical devices in our house since thermostats automatically >turn down the electric heating. Sorry to quibble, but in a house or office with only one thermostat and poorly designed ventilation, a kitchen or computer room can be uncomfortably hot. That is a waste of energy. A fan will fix the problem. > Obviously, if one has an alternative much cheaper form of space heating then some savings can be > made by switching off. Yup. Gas heating or an electric heat pump are much cheaper than resistance electric space heating. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 08:47:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47Flc3Q004092; Sun, 7 May 2006 08:47:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47FlauE004077; Sun, 7 May 2006 08:47:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 08:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c671ed$918e2e80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20352145.1147012717415.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Shrinking hard drives Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 17:47:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 4:38 PM > Yup. Gas heating or an electric heat pump are much cheaper than resistance > electric space heating. Average COP of an electric heat pump must be about 3 isn't it? If so it's 3 times cheaper than resistance heating in pure energy cost. Michel (Jed you seem to have a reply-to problem too, epidemic on Vortex?) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 09:19:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47GJjMu018218; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:19:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47GJi0s018196; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:19:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:19:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 09:22:06 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Super colliders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_88866531==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <9bnymC.A.QcE.g4hXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_88866531==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research? What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research? Fermilab says: "By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy." "By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature." Physics in America at Crossroads and in Crisis, Panel Says http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NYTPhysicsInAmerica.htm By Dennis Overbye The New York Times Thursday, April 27, 2006 "Physics in America is at a crossroads and in crisis, just as humanity stands on the verge of great discoveries about the nature of matter and the universe, a panel from the National Academy of Sciences said yesterday. The United States should be prepared to spend up to half a billion dollars in the next five years to ensure that a giant particle accelerator now being designed by a worldwide consortium of scientists can be built on American soil, the panel said. If that does not happen, particle physics, the quest for the fundamental forces and constituents of nature, will wither in this country, it said. Failure to locate the machine, known as the International Linear Collider, in the United States, the panel said, would force American particle physicists to do their research in Europe, where a major machine is to come online next year, and other places, perhaps Japan. The blow to American physics would erode the base of science and technology that has fueled innovation, provided intellectual and cultural inspiration and bolstered national security over the last century." --=====================_88866531==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research?
What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research?

Fermilab says:

"By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy."

"By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature."



Physics in America at Crossroads and in Crisis, Panel Says
 http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NYTPhysicsInAmerica.htm

By Dennis Overbye
The New York Times

Thursday, April 27, 2006

"Physics in America is at a crossroads and in crisis, just as humanity stands on the verge of great discoveries about the nature of matter and the universe, a panel from the National Academy of Sciences said yesterday.

The United States should be prepared to spend up to half a billion dollars in the next five years to ensure that a giant particle accelerator now being designed by a worldwide consortium of scientists can be built on American soil, the panel said. If that does not happen, particle physics, the quest for the fundamental forces and constituents of nature, will wither in this country, it said.

Failure to locate the machine, known as the International Linear Collider, in the United States, the panel said, would force American particle physicists to do their research in Europe, where a major machine is to come online next year, and other places, perhaps Japan.

The blow to American physics would erode the base of science and technology that has fueled innovation, provided intellectual and cultural inspiration and bolstered national security over the last century."
--=====================_88866531==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 09:23:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47GNea3019866; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:23:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47GNdEn019845; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:23:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:23:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=iei4IotGiRveRhFcgLrUtsmXbtiEPENqRexV9B/6KL2maz7I3OQRskAnzYacQjwQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006507162326458@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydroxyls (OH) Argon & Hydrinos Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:23:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406fa89546f66b17450bdd72fba3283fda350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.221 Resent-Message-ID: <0ybHbD.A.91E.K8hXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 5,178,829 A method for flash sterilization with a plasma gas includes exposing an unpackaged article in a sterilizing chamber to a gas plasma flowing from a plasma generating chamber until the temperature in the sterilizing chamber rises to a preselected maximum temperature of at least 100.degree. C. The flow of the plasma gas to the sterilizing chamber is terminated until the temperature in the sterilizing chamber falls to a temperature below the preselected maximum temperature. These steps are repeated until sterilization of the article is effected. The temperature below the preselected maximum temperature when gas plasma flow is again initiated is preferably not more than 3.degree. C. below the preselected maximum temperature. The gas plasma can be generated from a mixture of gases consisting essentially of argon, helium, nitrogen or mixtures thereof; from 1 to 21 (v/v) % oxygen; and from 1 to 20 (v/v) % hydrogen; or a mixture containing from 1 to 10 (v/v) % oxygen and from 3 to 7 (v/v) % hydrogen; or a mixture containing 1 to 10 (v/v) % hydrogen and from 90 to 99 (v/v) % of argon, helium, nitrogen or mixtures thereof. Preferably the pressure in the sterilizing chamber rises to from 0.1 to 10 torr when the gas plasma is flowing into the chamber, and the pressure in the sterilizing chamber falls to a lower pressure when the gas plasma flow into the sterilizing chamber is terminated ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/7/2006 4:36:25 AM Subject: Re: Hydroxyls (OH) Argon & Hydrinos The neutral Argon-40 (Z = 18) attached to the hydroxyl (OH) radical (Z of O = 8, H = 1) released at the anode of an electrolysis cell may release a hydrino in the combustion cylinder of an ICE. If so, the vapor from bottled Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH drawn into the cylinder where it dissociates into 2 OH upon compression-ignition might prove interesting. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
5,178,829
A method for flash sterilization with a plasma gas includes exposing an unpackaged article in a sterilizing chamber to a gas plasma flowing from a plasma generating chamber until the temperature in the sterilizing chamber rises to a preselected maximum temperature of at least 100.degree. C. The flow of the plasma gas to the sterilizing chamber is terminated until the temperature in the sterilizing chamber falls to a temperature below the preselected maximum temperature. These steps are repeated until sterilization of the article is effected. The temperature below the preselected maximum temperature when gas plasma flow is again initiated is preferably not more than 3.degree. C. below the preselected maximum temperature. The gas plasma can be generated from a mixture of gases consisting essentially of argon, helium, nitrogen or mixtures thereof; from 1 to 21 (v/v) % oxygen; and from 1 to 20 (v/v) % hydrogen; or a mixture containing from 1 to 10 (v/v) % oxygen and from 3 to 7 (v/v) % hydrogen; or a mixture containing 1 to 10 (v/v) % hydrogen and from 90 to 99 (v/v) % of argon, helium, nitrogen or mixtures thereof. Preferably the pressure in the sterilizing chamber rises to from 0.1 to 10 torr when the gas plasma is flowing into the chamber, and the pressure in the sterilizing chamber falls to a lower pressure when the gas plasma flow into the sterilizing chamber is terminated
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/7/2006 4:36:25 AM
Subject: Re: Hydroxyls (OH) Argon & Hydrinos

The  neutral Argon-40 (Z = 18) attached to the hydroxyl (OH) radical
(Z of O = 8, H = 1) released at the anode of an electrolysis cell may
release a hydrino in the combustion cylinder of an ICE.
If so, the vapor from bottled Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH drawn into the
cylinder where it dissociates into 2 OH upon compression-ignition might prove interesting.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 09:35:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47GYsaq024454; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:34:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47GYqqH024413; Sun, 7 May 2006 09:34:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:34:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=chY/PRXhdBSBNRvrYLJzw7SpEfAgTr3MBJUrxMP8RuhDUYwHIlG8Bs3aWQH0biDM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006507163438875@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Super colliders Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:34:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940291a86a1d1767478ad898f121525c1ad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.112 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Haven't you heard of crash-testing "workfare" Steve? :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Krivit To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/7/2006 10:20:30 AM Subject: Super colliders Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research? What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research? Fermilab says: "By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy." "By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Haven't you heard of crash-testing "workfare" Steve?  :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/7/2006 10:20:30 AM
Subject: Super colliders

Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research?
What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research?

Fermilab says:

"By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy."

"By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:07:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47I7JJp000631; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:07:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47I7HdD000614; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:07:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:07:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060507180714879.D6AD25800082@mwinf3114.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 19:07:15 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Super colliders Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47I7FN0000589 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:21 pm 07/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: >...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision... > >By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... > >P. Doing a little research on angels and pins I came across this rather amusing tale which younger Vorts might not have seen before. ========================================================== Angels on the Head of a Pin A Modern Parable by Alexander Calandra Saturday Review, 21 Dec 1968 Some time ago I received a call from a colleague who asked if I would be the referee on the grading of an examination question. He was about to give a student a zero for his answer to a physics question, while the student claimed he should receive a perfect score and would if the system were not set up against the student: The instructor and the student agreed to submit this to an impartial arbiter, and I was selected. I went to my colleague's office and read the examination question: "Show how it is possible to determine the height of a tall building with the aid of a barometer." The student had answered: "Take a barometer to the top of the building, attach a long rope to it, lower the barometer to the street and then bring it up, measuring the length of the rope. The length of the rope is the height of the building." I pointed out that the student really had a strong case for full credit since he had answered the question completely and correctly. On the other hand, if full credit was given, it could well contribute to a high grade for the student in his physics course. A high grade is supposed to certify competence in physics, but the answer did not confirm this. I suggested that the student have another try at answering the question I was not surprised that my colleague agreed, but I was surprised that the student did. I gave the student six minutes to answer the question with the warning that the answer should show some knowledge of physics. At the end of five minutes, he had not written anything. I asked if he wished to give up, but he said no. He had many answers to this problem; he was just thinking of the best one. I excused myself for interrupting him and asked him to please go on. In the next minute he dashed off his answer which read: "Take the barometer to the top of the building and lean over the edge of the roof. Drop that barometer, timing its fall with a stopwatch. Then using the formula S = ½ a t2, calculate the height of the building. At this point I asked my colleague if he would give up. He conceded, and I gave the student almost full credit. In leaving my colleague's office, I recalled that the student had said he had many other answers to the problem, so I asked him what they were. "Oh yes," said the student. "There are a great many ways of getting the height of a tall building with a barometer. For example, you could take the barometer out on a sunny day and measure the height of the barometer and the length of its shadow, and the length of the shadow of the building and by the use of a simple proportion, determine the height of the building." "Fine," I asked. "And the others?" "Yes," said the student. "There is a very basic measurement method that you will like. In this method you take the barometer and begin to walk up the stairs. As you climb the stairs, you mark off the length of the barometer along the wall. You then count the number of marks, and this will give you the height of the building in barometer units. A very direct method." "Of course, if you want a more sophisticated method, you can tie the barometer to the end of a string, swing it as a pendulum, and determine the value of `g' at the street level and at the top of the building. From the difference of the two values of `g', the height of the building can be calculated." Finally, he concluded, there are many other ways of solving the problem. "Probably the best," he said, "is to take the barometer to the basement and knock on the superintendent's door. When the superintendent answers, you speak to him as follows: "Mr. Superintendent, here I have a fine barometer. If you tell me the height of this building, I will give you this barometer." ========================================================== Mind you - quite what the parable has to do with angels or pins rather escapes me. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:20:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IK1F6005748; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:20:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IJxGE005709; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:19:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112225.0299a548@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:22:32 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Super colliders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_96091984==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_96091984==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:34 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote: >Haven't you heard of crash-testing "workfare" Steve? :-) Workfare? Actually, no. But now I have. Seems your answer is somewhat tongue in cheek, which I actually enjoyed, but my original question was indeed literal and not rhetorical. (p.s. I don't get the "crash-testing" part.) Weakipedia: Workfare is an alternative model to conventional social welfare systems. Traditional welfare benefits are available with little required of the recipient, save their continued search for employment, if that. Under workfare, recipients have to meet certain participation requirements to continue to receive their welfare benefits. These requirements are often a combination of activities that help to improve the recipient's job prospects (such as training, rehabilitation and work experience) and those that allow them to contribute to society (such as unpaid or underpaid work). These programs, now common in the United States, Australia (under the guise of mutual obligation) and Canada have generated considerable debate and controversy. --=====================_96091984==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:34 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote:
Haven't you heard of crash-testing "workfare" Steve?  :-)

Workfare? Actually, no. But now I have.
Seems your answer is somewhat tongue in cheek, which I actually enjoyed, but my original question was indeed literal and not rhetorical.
(p.s. I don't get the "crash-testing" part.)


Weakipedia:

Workfare is an alternative model to conventional social welfare systems. Traditional welfare benefits are available with little required of the recipient, save their continued search for employment, if that. Under workfare, recipients have to meet certain participation requirements to continue to receive their welfare benefits. These requirements are often a combination of activities that help to improve the recipient's job prospects (such as training, rehabilitation and work experience) and those that allow them to contribute to society (such as unpaid or underpaid work). These programs, now common in the United States, Australia (under the guise of mutual obligation) and Canada have generated considerable debate and controversy.

--=====================_96091984==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:26:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IQhSS008605; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:26:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IQfBk008587; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:26:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:26:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112823.02a97c90@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:29:15 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060507132017.01e038f8@pop> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060507132017.01e038f8@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_96495312==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_96495312==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Oh come on now, Phillip, is no one here taking my question seriously? At 10:21 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote: >...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision... > >By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... > >P. --=====================_96495312==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Oh come on now, Phillip, is no one here taking my question seriously?  <g>

At 10:21 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote:
...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision...

By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

P.
--=====================_96495312==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:31:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IUq4N010120; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:30:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IUpaY010102; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:30:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:30:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <363080457.1147026649144.JavaMail.root@fepweb10> Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:30:49 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Super colliders Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Grimer wrote: > At 01:21 pm 07/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision... > > > >By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... > > > >P. > > Doing a little research on angels and pins I came across > this rather amusing tale which younger Vorts might not > have seen before. > ... Good anecdote, Frank, A classic example of Lateral Thinking in action. The student knew all too well what the professor wanted for an answer. Too bad the professor didn't see it that way. I think the professor was a little miffed that the student didn't ask him if HE would like the barometer instead of asking the superintendent. ;-) Sadly, I fear there probablly isn't enough Lateral Thinking going on in a lot of R&D labs. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:36:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IZo5G013262; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:35:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IZlc1013228; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112932.02a7a280@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:38:20 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dearest Grimer, thank you SO much for this insightful, truly awe-inspring answer to the valuable knowledge gained from the insights into particle physics. OTOH, I am ROFL and truly appreciate the parable. It actually reminds me of the questions which I, and many others have asked of Martin. Thanks :) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:37:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IbhEB014621; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:37:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47Ibgrk014598; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:37:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:37:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:36:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Super colliders In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112225.0299a548@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47Ibdjh014562 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > > At 09:34 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote: > Haven't you heard of crash-testing "workfare" Steve? :-) > > Workfare? Actually, no. But now I have. > Seems your answer is somewhat tongue in cheek, which I actually enjoyed, but > my original question was indeed literal and not rhetorical. > (p.s. I don't get the "crash-testing" part.) > > > Weakipedia: > > Workfare is an alternative model to conventional social welfare > systems. Traditional welfare > benefits are available with little required of the recipient, save their > continued search for employment, if that. Under workfare, recipients have to > meet certain participation requirements to continue to receive their welfare > benefits. These requirements are often a combination of activities that help > to improve the recipient's job prospects (such as training, rehabilitation and > work experience) and those that allow them to contribute to society (such as > unpaid or underpaid work). These programs, now common in the United States > , Australia > (under the guise of mutual > obligation) and Canada have generated > considerable debate and controversy. > This proposal interesting. Harry http://www.aei.org/include/pub_print.asp?pubID=24092 A Plan to Replace the Welfare State By Charles Murray Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 ARTICLES Wall Street Journal   Publication Date: March 22, 2006 ARTICLES Wall Street Journal   Publication Date: March 22, 2006 This much is certain: The welfare state as we know it cannot survive. No serious student of entitlements thinks that we can let federal spending on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid rise from its current 9% of GDP to the 28% of GDP that it will consume in 2050 if past growth rates continue. The problems facing transfer programs for the poor are less dramatic but, in the long term, no less daunting; the falling value of a strong back and the rising value of brains will eventually create a class society making a mockery of America's ideals unless we come up with something more creative than anything that the current welfare system has to offer. So major change is inevitable--and Congress seems utterly unwilling to face up to it. Witness the Social Security debate of last year, a case study in political timidity. Like it or not, we have several years to think before Congress can no longer postpone action. Let's use it to start thinking outside the narrow proposals for benefit cuts and tax increases that will be Congress's path of least resistance. The place to start is a blindingly obvious economic reality that no one seems to notice: This country is awash in money. America is so wealthy that enabling everyone to have a decent standard of living is easy. We cannot do it by fiddling with the entitlement and welfare systems--they constitute a Gordian Knot that cannot be untied. But we can cut the knot. We can scrap the structure of the welfare state. Instead of sending taxes to Washington, straining them through bureaucracies and converting what remains into a muddle of services, subsidies, in-kind support and cash hedged with restrictions and exceptions, just collect the taxes, divide them up, and send the money back in cash grants to all American adults. Make the grant large enough so that the poor won't be poor, everyone will have enough for a comfortable retirement, and everyone will be able to afford health care. We're rich enough to do it. Consider retirement. Let's say that we have a 21-year-old man before us who, for whatever reasons, will be unable to accumulate his own retirement fund. We accumulate it for him through a yearly contribution for 45 years until he retires at age 66. We can afford to contribute $2,000 a year and invest it in an index-based stock fund. What is the least he can expect to have when he retires? We are ridiculously conservative, so we first identify the worst compound average growth rate, using constant dollars, for any 45-year period in the history of the stock market (4.3% from 1887-1932). We then assume our 21-year-old will be the unluckiest investor in American history and get just a 4.0% average return. At the end of the 45-year period, he will have about $253,000, with which he could purchase an annuity worth about $20,500 a year. That's with just a $2,000 annual contribution, equivalent to the Social Security taxes the government gets for a person making only $16,129 per year. The government gets more than twice that amount from someone earning the median income, and more than five times that amount from the millions of people who pay the maximum FICA tax. Giving everyone access to a comfortable retirement income is easy for a country as rich as the U.S.--if we don't insist on doing it through the structure of the welfare state. Health care is more complicated in its details, but not in its logic. We do not wait until our 21-year-old is 65 and then start paying for his health care. Instead, we go to a health insurance company and tell it that we're prepared to start paying a constant premium now for the rest of the 21-year-old's life. Given that kind of offer, the health insurance company can sell us a health care policy that covers the essentials for somewhere around $3,000. It can be so inexpensive for the same reason that life insurance companies can sell generous life insurance cheaply if people buy it when they're young--the insurance company makes a lot of money from the annual payments before eventually having to write the big benefit checks. Providing access to basic medical care for everyone is easy for a country as rich as the U.S.--if we don't insist on doing it through the structure of the welfare state. There are many ways of turning these economic potentials into a working system. The one I have devised--I call it simply "the Plan" for want of a catchier label--makes a $10,000 annual grant to all American citizens who are not incarcerated, beginning at age 21, of which $3,000 a year must be used for health care. Everyone gets a monthly check, deposited electronically to a bank account. If we implemented the Plan tomorrow, it would cost about $355 billion more than the current system. The projected costs of the Plan cross the projected costs of the current system in 2011. By 2020, the Plan would cost about half a trillion dollars less per year than conservative projections of the cost of the current system. By 2028, that difference would be a trillion dollars per year. Many questions must be asked of a system that substitutes a direct cash grant for the current welfare state. Work disincentives, the comparative risks of market-based solutions versus government guarantees, transition costs, tradeoffs in health coverage, implications for the tax system, and effects on people too young to qualify for the grant, all require attention in deciding whether the Plan is feasible and desirable. I think all of the questions have answers, but they are not one-liners; I lay them out in my book. * * * For now, let me turn to a larger question: Assuming that the technical questions have answers, do we want a system in which the government divests itself of responsibility for the human needs that gave rise to the welfare state in the first place? I think the reasons for answering "yes" go far beyond the Plan's effects on poverty, retirement and health care. Those issues affect comparatively small minorities of the population. The more profound problem facing the world's most advanced societies is how their peoples are to live meaningful lives in an age of plenty and security. Throughout history until a few decades ago, the meaning of life for almost everyone was linked to the challenge of simple survival. Staying alive required being a contributing part of a community. Staying alive required forming a family and having children to care for you in your old age. The knowledge that sudden death could happen at any moment required attention to spiritual issues. Doing all those things provided deep satisfactions that went beyond survival. Life in an age of plenty and security requires none of those things. For the great majority of people living in advanced societies, it is easily possible to go through life accompanied by social companions and serial sex partners, having a good time, and dying in old age with no reason to think that one has done anything significant. If you believe that's all there is--that the purpose of life is to while away the time as pleasantly as possible--then it is reasonable to think that the purpose of government should be to enable people to do so with as little effort as possible. But if you agree with me that to live a human life can have transcendental meaning, then we need to think about how human existence acquires weight and consequence. For many readers of The Wall Street Journal, the focus of that search for meaning is bound up with vocation--for some, the quest to be rich and famous; for others, the quest to excel in a vocation one loves. But it is an option open to only to a lucky minority. For most people--including many older people who in their youths focused on vocation--life acquires meaning through the stuff of life: the elemental events associated with birth, death, growing up, raising children, paying the rent, dealing with adversity, comforting the bereaved, celebrating success, applauding the good and condemning the bad; coping with life as it exists around us in all its richness. The chief defect of the welfare state from this perspective is not that it is ineffectual in making good on its promises (though it is), nor even that it often exacerbates the very problems it is supposed to solve (though it does). The welfare state is pernicious ultimately because it drains too much of the life from life. The Plan returns the stuff of life to all of us in many ways, but chiefly through its effects on the core institutions of family and community. One key to thinking about how the Plan does so is the universality of the grant. What matters is not just that a lone individual has $10,000 a year, but that everyone has $10,000 a year and everyone knows that everyone else has that resource. Strategies that are not open to an individual are open to a couple; strategies that are not open to a couple are open to an extended family or, for that matter, to half a dozen friends who pool resources; strategies not open to a small group are open to a neighborhood. The aggregate shift in resources from government to people under the Plan is massive, and possibilities for dealing with human needs through family and community are multiplied exponentially. The Plan confers personal accountability whether the recipient wants it or not, producing cascading secondary and tertiary effects. A person who asks for help because he has frittered away his monthly check will find people and organizations who will help (America has a history of producing such people and organizations in abundance), but that help can come with expectations and demands that are hard to make of a person who has no income stream. Or contemplate the effects of a known income stream on the young man who impregnates his girlfriend. The first-order effect is that he cannot evade child support--the judge knows where his bank account is. The second-order effect is to create expectations that formerly didn't exist. I call it the Doolittle Effect, after Alfred Doolittle in "My Fair Lady." Recall why he had to get to the church on time. The Plan confers responsibility for dealing with human needs on all of us, whether we want it or not. Some will see this as a step backward, thinking that it is better to pay one's taxes, give responsibility to the government and be done with it. I think an alternative outlook is wiser: The Plan does not require us all to become part-time social workers. The nation can afford lots of free riders. But Aristotle was right. Virtue is a habit. Virtue does not flourish in the next generation because we tell our children to be honest, compassionate and generous in the abstract. It flourishes because our children practice honesty, compassion and generosity in the same way that they practice a musical instrument or a sport. That happens best when children grow up in a society in which human needs are not consigned to bureaucracies downtown but are part of life around us, met by people around us. Simply put, the Plan gives us back the action. Institutions and individuals alike thrive to the extent that they have important jobs to do and know that the responsibility to do them is on their heads. For decades, the welfare state has said to us, "We'll take care of that." As a result, we have watched some of our sources of life's most important satisfactions lose vitality. At the same time, we have learned how incompetent--how helpless--government is when "taking care of that" means dealing with complex human needs. The solution is not to tinker with the welfare state. The solution is to put responsibility for our lives back in our hands--ours as individuals, ours as families, and ours as communities. Charles Murray is the W. H. Brady Scholar in Culture and Freedom at AEI. He is the author of In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State (AEI Press, 2006). Related Links In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State Press Release: In Our Hands Human Accomplishment Also by Charles Murray Recent Articles A Plan to Replace the Welfare State The $10,000 Solution The Plan to Replace the Welfare State Latest Book In Our Hands A Plan to Replace the Welfare State AEI Print Index No. 19833 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:40:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IeD7i016081; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:40:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IeAo0016020; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:40:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:40:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507114150.02a60468@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:42:39 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_97299390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_97299390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Mind you - quite what the parable has to do with angels or >pins rather escapes me. 8-) Here you (and I) go: "When people want to express total pointlessness, they sometimes say a thing is as silly as "arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin." http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_132.html --=====================_97299390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Mind you - quite what the parable has to do with angels or
pins rather escapes me.  8-)

Here you (and I) go:

"When people want to express total pointlessness, they sometimes say a thing is as silly as "arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin."

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_132.html

--=====================_97299390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:41:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47Ia6QA013429; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:36:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IZv2c013312; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:35:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:35:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <001001c67205$0afcf230$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Super colliders Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:34:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C671DB.08F50650" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C671DB.08F50650 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C671DB.08F99A30" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C671DB.08F99A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteven wrote.. Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from = collider research?=20 Howdy Steven, Central Texas was to be the location of the super collider. Near = Waxahachie, the 25 mile dia underground ring was to be the answer to = everything how to get a Texan elected that got caught cheating at cards = to proof of the "big Bang"( no reference to the Lincoln bedroom). Later, after the project was started and then scrapped, and the smoke = cleared and the excavations refilled and the cost was tallied and the = markers were called in and the stiffed got stiffed.. then the blame = started. Supposedly Fermi Labs in Michigan felt they were dealt out of = the game so they backed the French program which is to be the grandaddy = of all colliders( even larger than a pileup on a Los Angeles freeway on = a foggy morning. For the poor old farmer that got pushed off his land here, the word = super collider can get a good fight started in any Waxahachie beer = joint. Super Colliders are obsolete. period!! The science gained cannot match = a Free Electron Laser (FEL). As any Duke U grad student can attest, = except ,however, they are sworn to silence by D O D and NSA.. Are there = any true secrets.. not hardly!. Duke bought their FEL including the = science team from Russia. What has the FEL program produced to date?? We = don't know because its under wraps. Rumor has it they can fry a burger = without using McDonald's recipe.. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C671DB.08F99A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steven wrote..
 
Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from = collider=20 research?
 
Howdy Steven,
 
Central Texas was to be the location of the super collider. Near=20 Waxahachie, the 25 mile dia  underground ring was to be the answer = to=20 everything how to get a Texan elected that got caught cheating at cards = to proof=20 of the "big Bang"( no reference to the Lincoln bedroom).
 Later, after the project was started and then scrapped, = and the=20 smoke cleared and the excavations refilled and the cost was tallied and = the=20 markers were called in and the stiffed got stiffed.. then the blame = started.=20 Supposedly Fermi Labs in Michigan felt they were dealt out of the game = so they=20 backed the French program which is to be the grandaddy of all colliders( = even=20 larger than a pileup on a Los Angeles freeway on a foggy morning.
 
For the poor old farmer that got pushed off his land here, the word = super=20 collider can get a good fight started in any Waxahachie beer = joint.
 
Super Colliders are obsolete. period!!  The science gained = cannot=20 match a Free Electron Laser (FEL). As any Duke U grad student can = attest, except=20 ,however, they are sworn to silence by  D O D and NSA.. Are there = any true=20 secrets.. not hardly!. Duke bought their FEL including the science team = from=20 Russia. What has the FEL program produced to date?? We don't know = because its=20 under wraps. Rumor has it they can fry a burger without using McDonald's = recipe..
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C671DB.08F99A30-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C671DB.08F50650 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c67204$f1b27d40$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C671DB.08F50650-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:44:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47Ii7CP017928; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47Ii5bq017902; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507114445.02abc420@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:46:38 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112225.0299a548@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8SU8MC.A.pXE.0_jXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >A Plan to Replace the Welfare State Struggling to bring this back on topic, let me say that I saw a particle physicist today on the offramp of the 10 freeway at Roberston with a sign, "Will work for a super collider." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:50:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47InxIB021004; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:50:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47InuZj020961; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:49:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:49:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507114850.02ac7680@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:52:27 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <001001c67205$0afcf230$0100007f@xptower> References: <001001c67205$0afcf230$0100007f@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I guess this is just another one of those silly questions that I find myself asking. So now its clear. It must be a secret antitrust initiative developed by Burger King, Wendy's and all those who stand for alternatives from McDonalds. s At 11:34 AM 5/7/2006, you wrote: >Steven wrote.. > >Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from >collider research? > >Howdy Steven, > >Central Texas was to be the location of the super collider. Near >Waxahachie, the 25 mile dia underground ring was to be the answer to >everything how to get a Texan elected that got caught cheating at cards to >proof of the "big Bang"( no reference to the Lincoln bedroom). > Later, after the project was started and then scrapped, and the smoke > cleared and the excavations refilled and the cost was tallied and the > markers were called in and the stiffed got stiffed.. then the blame > started. Supposedly Fermi Labs in Michigan felt they were dealt out of > the game so they backed the French program which is to be the grandaddy > of all colliders( even larger than a pileup on a Los Angeles freeway on a > foggy morning. > >For the poor old farmer that got pushed off his land here, the word super >collider can get a good fight started in any Waxahachie beer joint. > >Super Colliders are obsolete. period!! The science gained cannot match a >Free Electron Laser (FEL). As any Duke U grad student can attest, except >,however, they are sworn to silence by D O D and NSA.. Are there any true >secrets.. not hardly!. Duke bought their FEL including the science team >from Russia. What has the FEL program produced to date?? We don't know >because its under wraps. Rumor has it they can fry a burger without using >McDonald's recipe.. > >Richard > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 12:10:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47J9qMI032689; Sun, 7 May 2006 12:09:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47J9iWE032594; Sun, 7 May 2006 12:09:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:09:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 15:09:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Super colliders In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_vBOGcMaz7DJZBmleCPraeA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_vBOGcMaz7DJZBmleCPraeA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT One can always point to benefits. The question is whether the benefits have/will outweigh the costs. Harry Steven Krivit wrote: Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research? What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research? --Boundary_(ID_vBOGcMaz7DJZBmleCPraeA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Super colliders
One can always point to benefits.
The question is whether the benefits have/will outweigh the costs.

Harry


Steven Krivit wrote:

Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research?
What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research?

--Boundary_(ID_vBOGcMaz7DJZBmleCPraeA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 13:28:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47KRjKB000552; Sun, 7 May 2006 13:27:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47KRgXL000510; Sun, 7 May 2006 13:27:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:27:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 16:27:51 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8402BD8D15B28-19F0-5BC9@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Super colliders Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research? What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research? <><><><><><> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_collider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles and finally http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf to find out why Hotson said what he did. Terry (whose parent company, Parsons Brinckerhoff, was a engineering pardner on the SCSC) ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 14:34:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47LYaW0029919; Sun, 7 May 2006 14:34:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47LYY6c029905; Sun, 7 May 2006 14:34:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:34:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <002001c6721e$014719a0$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Super colliders Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:33:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C671F4.01BF48F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C671F4.01BF48F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C671F4.01C25630" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C671F4.01C25630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Steven, You obviously asked the magic question to provoke such a response. Took = me a while to wrap my brain completely around those responses.. from = pin headed angels to theoretical particle welfare physics where the = speed of the growth of the handout is indirectly proportional to the = work product divided by the square of the unthankfulness of the mass. In = otherwords.. it ain't never gonna fly the way it's designed. This is an outsider's view of the supercollider. Particle physics is not = a science, it's an extremely sophisicated game of marbles. At one time Los Alamos had a pretty fair to middlin' team of particle = physicists composed mostly of Russians. Why Russians at Los Alamos?? = Because the USA had a total of perhaps 6 qualified particle physicists = and they had over 100. And this was back during the peak of the cold = war. I happened to ask one of our physicist why there were Russians at = Los Alamos since they were obviously learning our secrets.. The reponse = was.. we are learning from them.. not the reverse..=20 Richard. ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C671F4.01C25630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Steven,
 
You obviously asked the magic question to provoke such a response. = Took me=20 a  while to wrap my brain completely around those responses.. from = pin=20 headed angels to theoretical particle welfare physics where the speed of = the=20 growth of the handout is indirectly proportional to the work product = divided by=20 the square of the unthankfulness of the mass. In otherwords.. it ain't = never=20 gonna fly the way it's designed.
This is an outsider's view of the supercollider. Particle physics = is not a=20 science, it's an extremely sophisicated game of marbles.
At one time Los Alamos had a pretty fair to middlin' team of = particle=20 physicists composed mostly of Russians. Why Russians at Los Alamos??=20 Because the USA had a total of perhaps 6 qualified particle = physicists=20 and they had over 100.  And this was back during the peak of the = cold war.=20 I happened to ask one of our physicist why there were Russians at Los = Alamos=20 since they were obviously learning our secrets.. The reponse was.. we = are=20 learning from them.. not the reverse..
 
Richard.

 

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C671F4.01C25630-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C671F4.01BF48F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c6721d$ea848810$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C671F4.01BF48F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 15:01:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47M1AQ3008770; Sun, 7 May 2006 15:01:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47M18Ap008749; Sun, 7 May 2006 15:01:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 15:01:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydroxyls (OH) Argon & Hydrinos Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 08:01:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <03rs52d4n2gtvbm9kgimt157clje4iopva@4ax.com> References: <410-22006507103542965@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006507103542965@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 May 2006 22:00:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47M15VF008675 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 May 2006 04:35:42 -0600: Hi Fred, [snip] >The neutral Argon-40 (Z = 18) attached to the hydroxyl (OH) radical >(Z of O = 8, H = 1) released at the anode of an electrolysis cell may >release a hydrino in the combustion cylinder of an ICE. >If so, the vapor from bottled Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH drawn into the >cylinder where it dissociates into 2 OH upon compression-ignition might prove interesting. How do you get the OH radical to attach to an Ar atom? What does OH have to do with the Hydrinos anyway? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 15:37:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47MbaoF025723; Sun, 7 May 2006 15:37:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47MbYgD025691; Sun, 7 May 2006 15:37:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 15:37:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Power Line Corona and Hydrinos Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 08:37:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220065071041501@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220065071041501@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.162] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 May 2006 22:37:31 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47MbWSr025660 Resent-Message-ID: <9SZzPD.A.XRG.uanXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 May 2006 04:04:01 -0600: Hi Fred, [snip] >If you get more hydrinos using 120 volts AC 8 watts than using >1.48 volts DC at 10 amperes (14.8 watts) who cares? :-) ...but what makes you think you *do* get more hydrinos in the first case? > >http://support.radioshack.com/support_radios/doc69/69948.pdf [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 10:29:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47HTBV3018557; Sun, 7 May 2006 10:29:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47HT9HA018534; Sun, 7 May 2006 10:29:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:29:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=Ja4iKNVijv+955xsfbskCty6r8AAsyKVNWFyYDQkhRfmpfUfV9UmPS5tBXoj4I5TffNmFF5HqNntwxvF7OSJhu0cPOLtnh4McDSHonQA55EAyNkqY454eVsXdERQitML1OANGBIBDoATsUkXcCWCxKg7BEA+iz3nLxzRSO8qYg0= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060507132017.01e038f8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 13:21:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507092135.02a17a18@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25742015==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: --=====================_25742015==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed ...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision... By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... P. At 09:22 AM 5/7/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from >collider research? >What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research? > >Fermilab says: > >"By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make >discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy." > >"By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain >insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, >in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle >accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred >particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, >scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature." > > > >Physics in America at Crossroads and in Crisis, Panel Says >http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NYTPhysicsInAmerica.htm > >By Dennis Overbye >The New York Times > >Thursday, April 27, 2006 > >"Physics in America is at a crossroads and in crisis, just as humanity >stands on the verge of great discoveries about the nature of matter and >the universe, a panel from the National Academy of Sciences said yesterday. > >The United States should be prepared to spend up to half a billion dollars >in the next five years to ensure that a giant particle accelerator now >being designed by a worldwide consortium of scientists can be built on >American soil, the panel said. If that does not happen, particle physics, >the quest for the fundamental forces and constituents of nature, will >wither in this country, it said. > >Failure to locate the machine, known as the International Linear Collider, >in the United States, the panel said, would force American particle >physicists to do their research in Europe, where a major machine is to >come online next year, and other places, perhaps Japan. > >The blow to American physics would erode the base of science and >technology that has fueled innovation, provided intellectual and cultural >inspiration and bolstered national security over the last century." --=====================_25742015==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" ...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision...

By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

P.




At 09:22 AM 5/7/2006 -0700, you wrote:
Can someone please tell me what benefits society has received from collider research?
What potential benefits to humanity may come from collider research?

Fermilab says:

"By analyzing the stored data from the detectors, physicists make discoveries about the fundamental nature of matter and energy."

"By smashing particles together at very high energy, physicists gain insight into the processes that took place during in the early universe, in the first instants after the Big Bang. Every second, particle accelerators create millions of "minibangs," producing up to a hundred particles in each collision. By studying these collision events, scientists can discover and explore the laws of nature."



Physics in America at Crossroads and in Crisis, Panel Says
http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NYTPhysicsInAmerica.htm

By Dennis Overbye
The New York Times

Thursday, April 27, 2006

"Physics in America is at a crossroads and in crisis, just as humanity stands on the verge of great discoveries about the nature of matter and the universe, a panel from the National Academy of Sciences said yesterday.

The United States should be prepared to spend up to half a billion dollars in the next five years to ensure that a giant particle accelerator now being designed by a worldwide consortium of scientists can be built on American soil, the panel said. If that does not happen, particle physics, the quest for the fundamental forces and constituents of nature, will wither in this country, it said.

Failure to locate the machine, known as the International Linear Collider, in the United States, the panel said, would force American particle physicists to do their research in Europe, where a major machine is to come online next year, and other places, perhaps Japan.

The blow to American physics would erode the base of science and technology that has fueled innovation, provided intellectual and cultural inspiration and bolstered national security over the last century."

--=====================_25742015==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 11:35:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k47IYdS8012584; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:34:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k47IYbRo012554; Sun, 7 May 2006 11:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LrJNfL6ENqWg9/fVC2ToYoDt9Wnqx8QlbySu2zpwluuMbzs7Bm6JtqS/4Rcg3+CZvvhp71Kr9lFVYV0qI/HJu9553P2yyHWH1lRqj4E1Tu/XD2Xzxtj7pbHyPy6ioBtzB27v+RHGzQLvELtkSgqBL3FkMHTK68zvtVA5XHJYN+s= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060507142536.01df2098@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:26:18 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20060507180715.00b98590@pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k47IYW8o012501 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Brilliant kid!!!! Now let me see... I bet he's become a Hollywood heartthrob... P. At 07:07 PM 5/7/2006 +0100, you wrote: >At 01:21 pm 07/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >...producing up to a hundred particles in each collision... > > > >By sheer coincidence, that's how many angels can dance on the head of a > pin... > > > >P. > >Doing a little research on angels and pins I came across >this rather amusing tale which younger Vorts might not >have seen before. > >========================================================== >Angels on the Head of a Pin > >A Modern Parable >by Alexander Calandra > >Saturday Review, 21 Dec 1968 > >Some time ago I received a call from a colleague >who asked if I would be the referee on the grading >of an examination question. He was about to give >a student a zero for his answer to a physics question, >while the student claimed he should receive a perfect >score and would if the system were not set up against >the student: The instructor and the student agreed >to submit this to an impartial arbiter, and I was >selected. > >I went to my colleague's office and read the examination >question: "Show how it is possible to determine the >height of a tall building with the aid of a barometer." > >The student had answered: "Take a barometer to the >top of the building, attach a long rope to it, lower >the barometer to the street and then bring it up, >measuring the length of the rope. The length of the >rope is the height of the building." > >I pointed out that the student really had a strong >case for full credit since he had answered the question >completely and correctly. On the other hand, if full >credit was given, it could well contribute to a high >grade for the student in his physics course. A high >grade is supposed to certify competence in physics, >but the answer did not confirm this. I suggested that >the student have another try at answering the question >I was not surprised that my colleague agreed, but I >was surprised that the student did. > >I gave the student six minutes to answer the question >with the warning that the answer should show some >knowledge of physics. At the end of five minutes, he >had not written anything. I asked if he wished to >give up, but he said no. He had many answers to this >problem; he was just thinking of the best one. >I excused myself for interrupting him and asked him >to please go on. In the next minute he dashed off his >answer which read: > >"Take the barometer to the top of the building and >lean over the edge of the roof. Drop that barometer, >timing its fall with a stopwatch. Then using the formula > S = ½ a t2, >calculate the height of the building. > >At this point I asked my colleague if he would give up. >He conceded, and I gave the student almost full credit. > >In leaving my colleague's office, I recalled that the >student had said he had many other answers to the problem, >so I asked him what they were. "Oh yes," said the student. >"There are a great many ways of getting the height of a >tall building with a barometer. For example, you could >take the barometer out on a sunny day and measure the >height of the barometer and the length of its shadow, >and the length of the shadow of the building and by the >use of a simple proportion, determine the height of the >building." > >"Fine," I asked. "And the others?" > >"Yes," said the student. "There is a very basic >measurement method that you will like. In this method >you take the barometer and begin to walk up the stairs. >As you climb the stairs, you mark off the length of >the barometer along the wall. You then count the number >of marks, and this will give you the height of the >building in barometer units. A very direct method." > >"Of course, if you want a more sophisticated method, >you can tie the barometer to the end of a string, swing >it as a pendulum, and determine the value of `g' at the >street level and at the top of the building. From the >difference of the two values of `g', the height of the >building can be calculated." > >Finally, he concluded, there are many other ways of >solving the problem. "Probably the best," he said, >"is to take the barometer to the basement and knock >on the superintendent's door. When the superintendent >answers, you speak to him as follows: "Mr. Superintendent, >here I have a fine barometer. If you tell me the height >of this building, I will give you this barometer." >========================================================== > >Mind you - quite what the parable has to do with angels or >pins rather escapes me. 8-) > >Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 7 22:48:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k485mBxN024653; Sun, 7 May 2006 22:48:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k485m7tK024629; Sun, 7 May 2006 22:48:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 22:48:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=I8jXS7Ja6VZ83yDnSzBj2+vujZCe3/WoNQrj0WWdGHbnh2JGLOzVo0YBmITeReZ6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065185483274@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electroniumized Hydrinos Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 23:48:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b445058b9c69d23ecafc75a260f68fdc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Electronium (*e-) or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses)a possible stable bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps- whose existence is most likely to be proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino". Ground state orbital velocity c/137. Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2 newtons Ground state Potential V - kq/r =73.59 volts For mass = 2.7 * electron mass r = 1.958e-11 meters Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40. Go Figure. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Electronium (*e-)  or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses)a possible stable
bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps-  whose existence is most likely to be
proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino".
 
Ground state orbital velocity c/137.
 
Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2  newtons
 
Ground state Potential  V - kq/r  =73.59  volts
 
For mass = 2.7 * electron mass   r = 1.958e-11 meters
 
Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40. 
 
Go Figure.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 00:49:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k487ncKB015542; Mon, 8 May 2006 00:49:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k487na0L015522; Mon, 8 May 2006 00:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 00:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060508004940.02c16580@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 00:52:08 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <002001c6721e$014719a0$0100007f@xptower> References: <002001c6721e$014719a0$0100007f@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Coincidentally, I saw one of these mythical accelerators firsthand (well, from the 280 freeway) a few weeks ago when I was driving by Stanford. Pretty cool looking high tech thing. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 04:59:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48Bxe13016574; Mon, 8 May 2006 04:59:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48BxXM7016536; Mon, 8 May 2006 04:59:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 04:59:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Lvj39n91uDUnitjiAke0vZGZDWnDiCxcaAIuKlsfn+GUZ1dmH89m6jetI7DulSvC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006518115919871@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium Hydride Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 05:59:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940404707d6761c69768f93cf1a17511dd9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Fills the bill for Positronium and WIMPS (Neutralinos?) too. http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/search_positronium.html "How much positronium? In the Milky Way bulge, about 15 billion (thousand million) tons of positrons are annihilated every second. That's as much mass as the electrons in tens of trillions of tons of stuff we're used to, like rocks or water; about as much as in a mid-sized asteroid, 40 km across." http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/galaxies/imagine/dark_matter.html "Neutralinos are members of another set of particles which has been proposed as part of a physics theory known as supersymmetry. This theory is one that attempts to unify all the known forces in physics. Neutralinos are massive particles (they may be 30x to 5000x the mass of the proton), but they are the lightest of the electrically neutral supersymmetric particles. Astronomers and physicists are developing ways of detecting the neutralino either underground or searching the universe for signs of their interactions." ............................................................................................................ Wikipedia Article on Mills' Hydrino: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Quantum_Mechanics Max Planck Institute on "The Negative Positronium Ion". http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/ato/psminus/ As previously stated the Electronium will most likely be in the Argon-40 (Mills' Hydrino "catalyst") the decay daughter of Potassium-40 or any water molecule (or other) that was exposed to the positron decay of the potassium-40 in potassium to Argon-40. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber Electronium (*e-) or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses) a possible stable bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps- whose existence is most likely to be proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino". Ground state orbital velocity c/137. Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2 newtons Ground state Potential V - kq/r =73.59 volts For mass = 2.7 * electron mass r = 1.958e-11 meters Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40. Go Figure. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Fills the bill for Positronium and WIMPS (Neutralinos?) too.
 
 
"How much positronium? In the Milky Way bulge, about 15 billion (thousand million) tons of positrons are annihilated every second.
That's as much mass as the electrons in tens of trillions of tons of stuff we're used to, like rocks or water; about as
much as in a mid-sized asteroid, 40 km across."
 
 
"Neutralinos are members of another set of particles which has been proposed as part of a physics theory known as supersymmetry. This theory is one that attempts to unify all the known forces in physics. Neutralinos are massive particles (they may be 30x to 5000x the mass of the proton), but they are the lightest of the electrically neutral supersymmetric particles. Astronomers and physicists are developing ways of detecting the neutralino either underground or searching the universe for signs of their interactions."
............................................................................................................
Wikipedia Article on Mills' Hydrino:
 
 
Max Planck Institute on "The Negative Positronium Ion".
 
 
As previously stated the Electronium will most likely be in the Argon-40 (Mills' Hydrino "catalyst")
the decay daughter of Potassium-40 or any water molecule (or other) that was exposed to the positron
decay of the potassium-40 in potassium to Argon-40.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber
 
Electronium (*e-) or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses) a possible stable
bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps- whose existence is most likely to be
proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino".
 
Ground state orbital velocity c/137.
 
Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2 newtons
 
Ground state Potential V - kq/r =73.59 volts
 
For mass = 2.7 * electron mass r = 1.958e-11 meters
 
Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40.
 
Go Figure.
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 05:46:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48CkVb4002920; Mon, 8 May 2006 05:46:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48CkUro002907; Mon, 8 May 2006 05:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 05:46:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nh+NuE8m2mVe2nwEJ2zGHE1/dKM9R44dzeDoeVEHXEWu1GmzLf2hIPGD/QinBk3X; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006518124616445@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium Hydride Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 06:46:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b780a7ae8ab35ddcbe3332cb0fbff21f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.104 Resent-Message-ID: <1BxRW.A.Xt.m2zXEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some info on Three-Photon Electron-Positron annihilation. http://www.am.qub.ac.uk/users/g.gribakin/papers/PRL163202.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/8/2006 6:00:22 AM Subject: Re: Electronium Hydride Fills the bill for Positronium and WIMPS (Neutralinos?) too. http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/search_positronium.html "How much positronium? In the Milky Way bulge, about 15 billion (thousand million) tons of positrons are annihilated every second. That's as much mass as the electrons in tens of trillions of tons of stuff we're used to, like rocks or water; about as much as in a mid-sized asteroid, 40 km across." http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/galaxies/imagine/dark_matter.html "Neutralinos are members of another set of particles which has been proposed as part of a physics theory known as supersymmetry. This theory is one that attempts to unify all the known forces in physics. Neutralinos are massive particles (they may be 30x to 5000x the mass of the proton), but they are the lightest of the electrically neutral supersymmetric particles. Astronomers and physicists are developing ways of detecting the neutralino either underground or searching the universe for signs of their interactions." ............................................................................................................ Wikipedia Article on Mills' Hydrino: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Quantum_Mechanics Max Planck Institute on "The Negative Positronium Ion". http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/ato/psminus/ As previously stated the Electronium will most likely be in the Argon-40 (Mills' Hydrino "catalyst") the decay daughter of Potassium-40 or any water molecule (or other) that was exposed to the positron decay of the potassium-40 in potassium to Argon-40. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber Electronium (*e-) or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses) a possible stable bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps- whose existence is most likely to be proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino". Ground state orbital velocity c/137. Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2 newtons Ground state Potential V - kq/r =73.59 volts For mass = 2.7 * electron mass r = 1.958e-11 meters Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40. Go Figure. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Some info on Three-Photon Electron-Positron annihilation.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/8/2006 6:00:22 AM
Subject: Re: Electronium Hydride

Fills the bill for Positronium and WIMPS (Neutralinos?) too.
 
 
"How much positronium? In the Milky Way bulge, about 15 billion (thousand million) tons of positrons are annihilated every second.
That's as much mass as the electrons in tens of trillions of tons of stuff we're used to, like rocks or water; about as
much as in a mid-sized asteroid, 40 km across."
 
 
"Neutralinos are members of another set of particles which has been proposed as part of a physics theory known as supersymmetry. This theory is one that attempts to unify all the known forces in physics. Neutralinos are massive particles (they may be 30x to 5000x the mass of the proton), but they are the lightest of the electrically neutral supersymmetric particles. Astronomers and physicists are developing ways of detecting the neutralino either underground or searching the universe for signs of their interactions."
............................................................................................................
Wikipedia Article on Mills' Hydrino:
 
 
Max Planck Institute on "The Negative Positronium Ion".
 
 
As previously stated the Electronium will most likely be in the Argon-40 (Mills' Hydrino "catalyst")
the decay daughter of Potassium-40 or any water molecule (or other) that was exposed to the positron
decay of the potassium-40 in potassium to Argon-40.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber
 
Electronium (*e-) or (e- e+ e-) (mass 2.5 - 2.7 electron masses) a possible stable
bound state of the known Positronium Ion Ps- whose existence is most likely to be
proven shortly fills the bill for a "fractional orbit hydrino".
 
Ground state orbital velocity c/137.
 
Balanced orbital force = mv^2/r = kq^2/r^2 newtons
 
Ground state Potential V - kq/r =73.59 volts
 
For mass = 2.7 * electron mass r = 1.958e-11 meters
 
Most likely found in Argon-40 the by-product of Positron Decay of Potassium-40.
 
Go Figure.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 05:50:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48CoNAM005302; Mon, 8 May 2006 05:50:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48CoLnA005278; Mon, 8 May 2006 05:50:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 05:50:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.0 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <000401c6729d$f073f140$6f027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <002001c6721e$014719a0$0100007f@xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20060508004940.02c16580@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: Super colliders Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:50:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Steven, Ah! Stanford, Yes ! It is housed in the huge building the size of the domed stadium. Seems they were actually working on a death ray gun and /or super rail gun rather than for the pure love of science.Funny thing is that 4 grad students duplicated the process using a series of table top pc's arranged for a FEL effect.. The report on this leaked out several years ago. They even had Boeing believing the thing would work and tried building it into a 747. Only demonstrates what a person can do with enough toys and money. They are still trying to wipe the egg off their face. Meanwhile the Russians and Isrealis have a working device that would scare the daylights out of you. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 2:52 AM Subject: Re: Super colliders > Coincidentally, I saw one of these mythical accelerators firsthand (well, > from the 280 freeway) a few weeks ago when I was driving by Stanford. > > Pretty cool looking high tech thing. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 07:38:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48EcU1Y001101; Mon, 8 May 2006 07:38:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48EcTsL001083; Mon, 8 May 2006 07:38:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:38:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Iverson" To: Subject: RE: Super colliders Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c672ad$10e9e330$6701a8c0@p4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112932.02a7a280@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve: RE: any benefits to society from collider research... Perhaps the fact that there were NO serious answers to your question, is the answer! :-) And taking the implication a little further, perhaps it's a good source of amusement! :-):-) Mark N. Iverson markiverson@charter.net -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit [mailto:steven@newenergytimes.com] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 11:38 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Super colliders Dearest Grimer, thank you SO much for this insightful, truly awe-inspring answer to the valuable knowledge gained from the insights into particle physics. OTOH, I am ROFL and truly appreciate the parable. It actually reminds me of the questions which I, and many others have asked of Martin. Thanks :) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 08:36:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48FZq9x003211; Mon, 8 May 2006 08:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48FZpip003189; Mon, 8 May 2006 08:35:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:35:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 11:35:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Super colliders In-reply-to: <8C8402BD8D15B28-19F0-5BC9@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles > Dudes...apparently there is a hypothetical particle named Oh-My-God. Like...Oh-My-God! That is like so cool and weird at the same time. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 09:22:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48GMOj1024514; Mon, 8 May 2006 09:22:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48GMMi5024489; Mon, 8 May 2006 09:22:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:22:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <20060505142837.15177.qmail@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:22:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2006 16:22:20.0329 (UTC) FILETIME=[948BF990:01C672BB] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, There was a remarkable engine developed at JPL by E.A Laumann, about 1976, that ran on Hydrogen and Argon. I'm pretty sure it was patented by NASA. As I recall, the efficiency exceeded that possible with fuel cells. It was a reinforced diesel with unusually high compression A paper was presented at the Second World Energy Hydrogen Conference, in 1978, by P.C.T. de Baer and Jean-Francois Hulet, both of Cornell. The title was Performance of a Hydrogen-Oxygen-Noble Gas Engine. A copy is in our files. You may find both of these are pertinent to your idea. Mark >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: The Pappajo engine >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:28:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Is the following Satyr, or Satire ? > >Here is a suggestion for an engine which purports to >operate somewhat in the manner of the both the Papp >engine and also the no-Joe variant (non-orgone) which >has been suggested to use an >exploding-plasma-capacitor modality. > >The plumbing is somewhat reminiscent of the Naudin >setup which he calls "BingoFuel" - insomuch as the >exhaust is recirculated... except that this one >operates without any fuel at all, and ALL of the >exhaust is recirculated, and zero new air is brought >in. Actually no air was there to begin with - only >argon gas. > >IOW the exhaust of an ICE is ported into a large >water-filled multi-plate capacitor, kept at low >voltage. One could possibly use an old auto battery >(drained) for the capacitor as does Dingel. However, >316 stainless steel seems to have some value for the >plates. The concentric design is a red herring. > >First, it should be realized that a huge variation >over anything prior is that instead of air, the only >gas in the system is argon. In this regard it has some >of the Papp modality as well, but in that engine there >was no circulation, and gases other than argon, and no >certainly physical micro-bubbling of H2O. > >In this engine argon is sucked through a capacitor and >the mix of water micro-bubbles and argon is >compressed. An actual spark may not be needed, but if >so - a plasma plug should be used. These plasma plugs >were once available from a company in Idaho. > >Is the PappaJo concept a vibrant hybrid of two >misunderstood designs- or the bastard Satyr of a >misguided imagination ? > >Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 10:47:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48HlKgS000582; Mon, 8 May 2006 10:47:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48HlJCY000572; Mon, 8 May 2006 10:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:47:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JTA1wfMxJvqev0j95EsSdm6gZqMTu1NyMbMZPIGAwbj9ZYMIOzvjQCFvFbng1LE6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651817479632@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:47:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94024c3dfdf085e3ffa9275c8de2e42f3e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.230 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII As is typical for UK websites here's an excellent article on batteries with pictures. They're not stingy with good information. :-) http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/batteries/printall.php Despite the low current attainable with 12 volts applied to the cell the approximately 0.6 square meter Metal-Water interfaces with about 3.0 volt bias on the plates it acts like the "Self Discharge" effect in storage batteries that generates H. H2, O, O2, and OH gases. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
As is typical for UK websites here's an excellent article on batteries
with pictures.   They're not stingy with good information.  :-)
 
 
Despite the low current attainable with 12 volts applied
to the cell the approximately 0.6 square meter Metal-Water
interfaces with about 3.0  volt  bias on the plates it acts like the
"Self Discharge" effect in storage batteries that generates H. H2,
O, O2, and OH gases.  
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 11:45:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48IjWZX027436; Mon, 8 May 2006 11:45:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48IjUH9027399; Mon, 8 May 2006 11:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:45:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Solar cooker? Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:45:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://solarcooking.org/ If he has a favorite design, happy to quote on it.... -john -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 5:40 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Solar cooker? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:26:22 -0700 Subject: Entry to Guestbook ------------------------------------------------------ Hi all , I head the Physics Dept.in Gov. High School Atiela and run an N.G.O. for the promotion of basic Edu and Child- centred Dev.(www.geocities.com/orescameroon).Affordable solar furnaces constructed if possible using local materials can transform the lives of my people. In Bamenda where I live energy from petroleum and electricity, being monopolies (in the hands of one corporation) are used as tools to overtax the people. The people are getting poorer and poorer by the day and are resorting more and more to wood for fuel.Deforestation and its consequencies are already visible . The paradox is sunshine is abondant .In my own little way I tried to construct a solar cooker which could be made out of local materials for the cost to be down to the level of the masses.It was challenging but very interesting.Mine didn't work because I had difficulties with the mirror. I wanted to try polished steel for the mirror;I coudn't lay hands on it. I wanted to use pieces of plane mirrors;I had difficulties mounting them. I tried the silvered side of parcelling paper. The result was impressive but fell short of being reliable.(it wrinkles easily). I have not given up yet.We have adopted the solar cooker as our project for next year in the Physics Dept.Meantime if it is possible for anyone out there to construct an effective and reliable solar cooker to cost say, $80 to $100 my organisation can purchase them and make them available to the masses.Thanks Julius shenga Email: jshenga@yahoo.com Bamenda, North West Cameroon - Friday, May 05, 2006 at 10:26:21 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 13:12:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48KBpu9001149; Mon, 8 May 2006 13:11:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48KBoWT001139; Mon, 8 May 2006 13:11:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:11:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060508131411.029235f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 13:14:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Super colliders In-Reply-To: <000401c672ad$10e9e330$6701a8c0@p4> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060507112932.02a7a280@mail.newenergytimes.com> <000401c672ad$10e9e330$6701a8c0@p4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:38 AM 5/8/2006, you wrote: >Steve: > >RE: any benefits to society from collider research... > >Perhaps the fact that there were NO serious answers to your question, is >the answer! >:-) > >And taking the implication a little further, perhaps it's a good source >of amusement! >:-):-) Anybody know a good cartoonist? s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 13:14:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48KE7Bb003068; Mon, 8 May 2006 13:14:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48KE52s003047; Mon, 8 May 2006 13:14:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:14:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060508131540.02a193a0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 13:16:44 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Super colliders In-Reply-To: References: <8C8402BD8D15B28-19F0-5BC9@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles >Dudes...apparently there is a hypothetical particle named Oh-My-God. >Like...Oh-My-God! That is like so cool and weird at the same time. ;-) > >Harry I abject disbelief, I had to look for myself. I'm at a loss for words. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 16:17:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k48NHJfe007196; Mon, 8 May 2006 16:17:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k48NHDkV007152; Mon, 8 May 2006 16:17:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:17:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:17:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060505142837.15177.qmail@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.42] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 May 2006 23:17:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k48NHBEM007095 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Mon, 08 May 2006 09:22:13 -0700: Hi Mark, [snip] I am very interested. >was Performance of a Hydrogen-Oxygen-Noble Gas Engine. A copy is in our >files. Does the paper mention the patent number? Is it a paper "paper", or in electronic form? If the latter, could you send me a copy? > >You may find both of these are pertinent to your idea. Indeed! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 8 17:03:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4903i1l026476; Mon, 8 May 2006 17:03:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4903gKv026449; Mon, 8 May 2006 17:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 17:03:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:03:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2006 00:03:41.0496 (UTC) FILETIME=[07CEDB80:01C672FC] Resent-Message-ID: <-ignk.A.NdG.ex9XEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, The paper is too large to scan, but if you provide a snail mail address, we will mail a copy. The Laumann NASA Patent is # 4,112,875. Mark >From: Robin van Spaandonk >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine >Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:17:10 +1000 > >In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Mon, 08 May 2006 09:22:13 >-0700: >Hi Mark, >[snip] > >I am very interested. > > >was Performance of a Hydrogen-Oxygen-Noble Gas Engine. A copy is in our > >files. > >Does the paper mention the patent number? Is it a paper "paper", >or in electronic form? If the latter, could you send me a copy? > > > > >You may find both of these are pertinent to your idea. > >Indeed! > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 04:02:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49B27oq029399; Tue, 9 May 2006 04:02:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49B25ZU029371; Tue, 9 May 2006 04:02:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 04:02:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Hbqx6pEsR2L18NKZMJ7mtMPyodAzZ2SUqDOe37/X1PkdLDUIJWuA/Q4Guzj+F1WV; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652911156114@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 05:01:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404dc5b14b0d598ef1b0339b5583879f4a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.206 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Frank Grimer. Although the Crookes Radiometer engine can convert the kilowatt (~ 1.3 Hp) per square meter solar insolation into work quite efficiently, it's a bit cumbersome to work with at the ~ 0.2 torr vacuum pressure. As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip of the vanes. Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too. Water from the thermal/liquid syphon pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes to 70 C (158 F) it has a vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at higher vane temperatures. OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more using mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into the serious shaft power range with only one moving part. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Frank Grimer.
Although the Crookes Radiometer engine can convert the
kilowatt (~ 1.3 Hp) per square meter solar insolation into work
quite efficiently, it's a bit cumbersome to work with at
the ~ 0.2 torr vacuum pressure.
As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that
wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it
wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated
by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip
of the vanes. Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too.
Water from the thermal/liquid syphon  pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure
of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes  to 70 C  (158 F) it has a
vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a
 Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at
higher vane temperatures.
 
OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more
using  mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into
the serious shaft power range with only one moving part.  :-) 
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 04:58:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49BwguB020946; Tue, 9 May 2006 04:58:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49BwfCt020926; Tue, 9 May 2006 04:58:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 04:58:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=t1FJHa2kOE9bjW9MN/15+I2HkRwrwACmWup3mSs7Gv60i3NzNW5qzzi6wpXqK2gx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006529115834961@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 05:58:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c233fa797433d0615bbfe50ba421072b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.40 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII US 3 801446 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3801446.PN.&OS=PN/3801446&RS=PN/3801446 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/9/2006 5:02:30 AM Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Frank Grimer. Although the Crookes Radiometer engine can convert the kilowatt (~ 1.3 Hp) per square meter solar insolation into work quite efficiently, it's a bit cumbersome to work with at the ~ 0.2 torr vacuum pressure. As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip of the vanes. Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too. Water from the thermal/liquid syphon pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes to 70 C (158 F) it has a vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at higher vane temperatures. OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more using mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into the serious shaft power range with only one moving part. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/9/2006 5:02:30 AM
Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine

Frank Grimer.
Although the Crookes Radiometer engine can convert the
kilowatt (~ 1.3 Hp) per square meter solar insolation into work
quite efficiently, it's a bit cumbersome to work with at
the ~ 0.2 torr vacuum pressure.
As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that
wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it
wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated
by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip
of the vanes. Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too.
Water from the thermal/liquid syphon  pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure
of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes  to 70 C  (158 F) it has a
vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a
 Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at
higher vane temperatures.
 
OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more
using  mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into
the serious shaft power range with only one moving part.  :-) 
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 05:04:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49C3gNm023402; Tue, 9 May 2006 05:03:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49C3eFa023394; Tue, 9 May 2006 05:03:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 05:03:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2006-03-10) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.6 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.1-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Message-ID: <001501c67360$9649c730$85027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:03:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C67336.ACEA43E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C67336.ACEA43E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C67336.ACEA43E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C67336.ACEA43E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred wrote.. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at higher vane temperatures. OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more using mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip = right up into the serious shaft power range with only one moving part. :-)=20 Howdy Fred.. Makes sense when you think about it. The drawback is safety. With the = proper luck you could blow the contraption over into the next county. = County Fairs have a popular show called the" anvil toss". We have just = the county here in Texas. Its near Texas A&M where a new military = science and tactics school has been formed. For sure the US Army could = use a few new ideas. Not even backward jungle guerrillas are using WW2 = surplus equipment anymore. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C67336.ACEA43E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred wrote..

Kerosene or JP-4 will work at

higher vane = temperatures.
 
OTOH. If you heat the pool = with a=20 radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more
using  mercury, = potassium, or=20 lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into
the serious = shaft power range=20 with only one moving part.  :-) 
 
 
Howdy Fred..
 
Makes sense when you think about it. = The=20 drawback is safety. With the proper luck you could blow the contraption = over=20 into the next county. County  Fairs have a popular show called the" = anvil=20 toss". We have just the county here in  Texas. Its near Texas = A&M where=20 a new military science and tactics school has been formed. For sure the = US Army=20 could use a few new ideas. Not even backward jungle guerrillas are using = WW2=20 surplus equipment anymore.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C67336.ACEA43E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C67336.ACEA43E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c67360$95b72420$85027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C67336.ACEA43E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 05:17:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49CGsdv030114; Tue, 9 May 2006 05:16:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49CGrp7030092; Tue, 9 May 2006 05:16:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 05:16:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=m/kV3Ngyrey2LvSNM31gbw7mNJddEwdRJO8hoK5GJPKxLqJqxXBSRhn9r+hF2SjF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22006529121646461@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 06:16:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406a5a801740d9cb57a4623439415d7632350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.40 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This one is safer to use, Richard. They work great except up in the San Louis Valley of Colorado, where the stock tanks freeze solid overnight in May. :-) Fred 3,943,889 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F3943889 ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/9/2006 6:04:24 AM Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Fred wrote.. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at higher vane temperatures. OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more using mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into the serious shaft power range with only one moving part. :-) Howdy Fred.. Makes sense when you think about it. The drawback is safety. With the proper luck you could blow the contraption over into the next county. County Fairs have a popular show called the" anvil toss". We have just the county here in Texas. Its near Texas A&M where a new military science and tactics school has been formed. For sure the US Army could use a few new ideas. Not even backward jungle guerrillas are using WW2 surplus equipment anymore. Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
This one is safer to use, Richard.  They work great except
up in the San Louis Valley of Colorado, where the stock tanks
freeze solid overnight in May.  :-)
 
Fred
 
3,943,889
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/9/2006 6:04:24 AM
Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine

Fred wrote..

Kerosene or JP-4 will work at

higher vane temperatures.
 
OTOH. If you heat the pool with a radioisotope "stove" to 1000 K or more
using  mercury, potassium, or lithium, as a working fluid you can zip right up into
the serious shaft power range with only one moving part.  :-) 
 
 
Howdy Fred..
 
Makes sense when you think about it. The drawback is safety. With the proper luck you could blow the contraption over into the next county. County  Fairs have a popular show called the" anvil toss". We have just the county here in  Texas. Its near Texas A&M where a new military science and tactics school has been formed. For sure the US Army could use a few new ideas. Not even backward jungle guerrillas are using WW2 surplus equipment anymore.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Id: <410-220065291216436871@13071999> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 07:03:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49E3R37016494; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:03:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49E3QhO016484; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:03:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=B2SKLNOeqFcITximeYyvA0xlxRHx1maDbaJwmBAvGYK0rDrEjMTgrlnAJX3O9Q/h; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652914315280@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Rotary Vane Hero Engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 08:03:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400677175f65307a9d5215335af1a8b8f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Frank. I posted earlier: > > As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that > wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it > wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated > by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip > of the vanes. > Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too. > > Water from the thermal/liquid syphon pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure > of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes to 70 C (158 F) it has a > vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a > Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at > higher vane temperatures. > If you attach an auger as a sump-pump on the bottom of the rotating tube it will fling the working fluid out through the hollow vanes where the G forces will push it out the "jets" at high velocity which means that after you get it going you don't any input for this perpetual motion power generator. Modified "Spin Cycle" on your washing machine? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Frank.
 
I posted earlier:
>
> As an alternative I propose a vertical axis heat pipe that
> wicks a working fluid from a pool at the bottom where it
> wicks out from the pipe through closely spaced-wicked plates/vanes heated
> by sunlight where the vapor exits through orifices "jets" at the tip
> of the vanes.
> Adding "centrifuge enhanced wicking" too.
>
> Water from the thermal/liquid syphon pool at 25 C (77 F) has a vapor pressure
> of about 25 Torr, but, heated by sunlight on the vanes to 70 C (158 F) it has a
> vapor pressure of 233 Torr. This offers a 208 torr pressure difference and a
> Carnot efficiency of 343-298/343 = 13%. Kerosene or JP-4 will work at
> higher vane temperatures.
>
If you attach an auger as a sump-pump on the bottom of the rotating tube
it will fling the working fluid out through the hollow vanes where the G forces will
push it out the "jets" at high velocity which means that after you get it
going you don't any input for this perpetual motion power generator.
 
Modified "Spin Cycle" on your washing machine?  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 07:15:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49EFJAu022141; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:15:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49EFH1f022103; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:15:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:15:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=YqQ2nuQVt6tW6Wvmh4t+oywp0y5ajdTW1IVFn2Q8rgfyTMwmnP0RU0ZGsfUOZjHuIZKGwJ2llPrXBDhTACspSfxE8wLTEqoAwMU1hWrbYyUu8l+sEAds15fmNeihgMtyOzxAUlS6AkfGh9HdJ7JIogeIbig32+b16SWJdNvXbVE= ; Message-ID: <20060509141516.12230.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Mark Goldes wrote: > There was a remarkable engine developed at JPL by E.A Laumann, about 1976, that ran on Hydrogen and Argon. Turns out the abstract is online: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nasa.reptV....L This adds a whole new wrinkle to many concepts ... even to solar conversion. If one were to use solar energy, as suggested, one could concievably get about double the efficieny of the present Sterling Engine, which in going into actual production (based on inferences as I haven't gotten the whole paper yet). This is due to higher electrolysis efficiency in steam (if condensation can be avoided) This could be a case of good prior research, from probably the best lab in the USA for this kind of thing, being missed in today's world of soraing oil costs - since it came out so long before the internet documented this kind of thing? Apparently the engine was built in the early seventies when gasoline was cheap. Thanks to Mark for remembering it. When I get the paper, I will try to put it into electronic form. The fascinating thing to many here is the connection to argon, and the fact that they did not even try to implement some obvious routes for improvement (assuming that the exploding capacitor effect is valid)- plus - isn't the *Feynman* "connection" a bit interesting. I haven't read the whole paper but I would bet that there is no mention of Papp - nor of the "incident" even though this experiment comes from a lab associated with R.F.'s alma mater... and was probably performed within a few miles of the Papp "explosion" ... yet ... are we to believe that there is zero relevance? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 07:19:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49EJ2cY024170; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:19:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49EJ0Gt024134; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:19:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:19:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pvppVCOKVCRWMmABjearo00ldxcfa2uCd87hTnN0N2mxwO3jG+0Hq81Vxml/TlKdrH9h2xRP/WlYm6E+vaAAp91sZlGOnjsCN3mlrJVEj16zdW3N83LiWV8pBqWOrV6Bp+KERSaNGMgI+9CxP71rIut5Aw5JKpTfE6wWGkpYYXI= ; Message-ID: <20060509141858.45797.qmail@web81112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:18:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060509141516.12230.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forgot to add that the patent is online (and expired of course): http://tinyurl.com/ru6vs > --- Mark Goldes wrote: > > > There was a remarkable engine developed at JPL by > E.A Laumann, about 1976, that ran on Hydrogen and > Argon. > > > Turns out the abstract is online: > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nasa.reptV....L > > > This adds a whole new wrinkle to many concepts ... > even to solar conversion. > > If one were to use solar energy, as suggested, one > could concievably get about double the efficieny of > the present Sterling Engine, which in going into > actual production (based on inferences as I haven't > gotten the whole paper yet). This is due to higher > electrolysis efficiency in steam (if condensation > can > be avoided) > > This could be a case of good prior research, from > probably the best lab in the USA for this kind of > thing, being missed in today's world of soraing oil > costs - since it came out so long before the > internet > documented this kind of thing? Apparently the engine > was built in the early seventies when gasoline was > cheap. > > Thanks to Mark for remembering it. When I get the > paper, I will try to put it into electronic form. > > The fascinating thing to many here is the connection > to argon, and the fact that they did not even try to > implement some obvious routes for improvement > (assuming that the exploding capacitor effect is > valid)- plus - isn't the *Feynman* "connection" a > bit > interesting. I haven't read the whole paper but I > would bet that there is no mention of Papp - nor of > the "incident" even though this experiment comes > from > a lab associated with R.F.'s alma mater... and was > probably performed within a few miles of the Papp > "explosion" ... yet ... are we to believe that there > is zero relevance? > > Jones > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 07:46:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49Ek5jc006114; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:46:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49Ek3qJ006087; Tue, 9 May 2006 07:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:46:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060509144600276.436AD580008C@mwinf3114.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060509144601.00b79f0c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:46:01 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:18 am 09/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Forgot to add that the patent is online (and expired >of course): >http://tinyurl.com/ru6vs When I clicked on the above tinyurl, that appeared to have expired likewise. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 08:06:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49F6EeX015115; Tue, 9 May 2006 08:06:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49F6BOq015066; Tue, 9 May 2006 08:06:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 08:06:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:15:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060509144601.00b79f0c@pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting idea; I like the closed loop nature of the system although carrying around the extra O2 would be a problem, yes? Oh yeah, this is how you do a document link to USPTO. You can't just copy the URL, it will expire as Frank suggests. HTML version http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=4112875 TIFF version http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=04112875&idkey=NONE I don't see much connection in this to the ideas of Papp et al, as the argon is being used as a working fluid. But if you had the engine you could perhaps test some of the ideas suggested here. I think Fred has the right idea, hobby engines would make for a good test bed. K. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:46 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine At 07:18 am 09/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Forgot to add that the patent is online (and expired >of course): >http://tinyurl.com/ru6vs When I clicked on the above tinyurl, that appeared to have expired likewise. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 08:28:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49FS30W028285; Tue, 9 May 2006 08:28:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49FS2x9028266; Tue, 9 May 2006 08:28:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 08:28:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:28:16 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C841945405522C-19F0-989C@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <20060509141516.12230.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene Turns out the abstract is online: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nasa.reptV....L <><><><><><> It's also been tested in an engine dear to you: "Keystone structures were observed for all mixtures. Mixtures with argon dilution showed much more regular structure than mixtures diluted with nitrogen. Shock and detonation polar analysis was used in the vicinity of the triple point to determine that the keystones are bounded by the reaction zones behind the incident wave and Mach stem and by the shear layer. A particularly clear example of a keystone in a hydrogen-oxygen-argon mixture at high dilution is shown. The combination of very regular detonation structure and persistent experimentation resulted in obtaining this image." http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/pde/pde.html Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 09:08:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49G8Sip014418; Tue, 9 May 2006 09:08:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49G8QRH014390; Tue, 9 May 2006 09:08:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:08:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=HNUQlbjMxnw6aywc4T4mpWD+yqSZieJoU41d8S1ZgF4A4U6hbxgGIOIfktI6KcqzTYsOIm2yPoNBcfAgsoGQ6007yhzqI1qNafClgrtOR9VsHdlhhH8MH25m+e7n+VH2dZKhE2gcWlpd0nwkPy9OkVEcy7eASTc0xyuiWEXKPwE= ; Message-ID: <20060509160825.24694.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:08:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C841945405522C-19F0-989C@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry for the mixup on the patent number as I am away from home and feel like being in a straight-jacket - trying to compose posts in one-quarter-time on a borrowed Mac (much slower than any PC) and the world's slowest Wi-Fi. Oh well, what can one expect from Star-yucks, for free? ---Terry reference the document: http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/pde/pde.html Which appears to relate to the Aurora pulse-jet engine - but also has relevance to the Aurora Borealis and Alfven waves. Hmm... The experiment which begs to be done, for more earthly use, is to compare the spectrum of radiation from a normal Alfven wave, initiated by a small flash steam explosion, to one in which the gas is mostly Argon. If there was substantially higher UV (and correspondingly higher net energy - which is my suspicion) then that outcome might suggest the almost unthinkable....(to the mainstream outside of JPL) The most advanced jet engine in the world is being fueled primarily with an inert gas ! That is beyond bizarre. To my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that Aurora may be carrying three liquid fuels - H2, O2, but mostly Ar ! ... although certainly the Ar and O2 would be a mix of mostly Ar, in order that there are only two cryo-tanks. Somebody call Jane's in for the scoop-of-the-day ... or did I just see that being picked-up by a considerate Lhasa Apso owner outside of Star-yucks... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 09:45:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49GjChq032767; Tue, 9 May 2006 09:45:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49Gj9ZH032733; Tue, 9 May 2006 09:45:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:45:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CIBNOsq/owRt7GVl6INKTL20Di6Ytd21Z/+xaHvf2zzkN7un/IMoNxEpBfH2KnsJUSP9veEQkuehegjpwKaeaz0zunKUhV4ukYR3aieCiy07lZ9qc9fxSAdy8AAQ8lTuC4eBbhU4jZlbCPCy/gusknJcFmrpgrYJTtGCcSEzbf4= ; Message-ID: <20060509164508.31648.qmail@web81109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: The Pappajo engine To: knagel@gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Interesting idea; I like the closed loop nature of the > system although carrying around the extra O2 would > be a problem, yes? For the best use, you would not need or want to carry around any extra fuel, and particularly NOT either H2 nor O2 in principle... ... as the water content of the exhaust would be split (over and over again) 'in situ' using an 'external' source of energy which could be solar, (in the fixed implementation) but also for transportation use could be a "safe" radioactive material (beta or alpha emitter) or a combination of same with substantial current drawn from the alternator. IOW if you needed 40 kWh for transportation purposes, you might be able to design an 80 kWh diesel engine with recirculation gases - H2O + Argon and then need zero other fuel ... except you would have a radio-electrolysis cell, i.e. a water-splitter using half of the engine electrical output (40 kWh) together with a unknown amount of a fairly safe alpha or beta emitter. Radioelectrolysis is kind of an ugly step-child (thank-you, Sierra Club) - but can be incredibly efficient and safe enough for some uses. If this set-up were to require say 5 kg of thorium in order to split enough H2 (in combination with the recycled electricity) - then that substantial amount would of course not be acceptable for a van owned by a soccer mom, but could conceivably be used under tighter controls to power delivery vans, trucks, post office vehicles, trains, military vehicles, maybe even cabs etc. (IOW where strict controls can be implemented) but nevertheless this could save save the corresponding amount of hydrocarbon fuel. This institutionalized transportation could be as much as 30% of net petroleum use. > I don't see much connection in this to the ideas of > Papp et al, as the argon is being used as a working fluid. Well. That would be the standard explanation, BUT is it what is really happening? Can you really achieve 65% Carnot efficiency if the Argon is "just" a working fluid? I am not so sure that the Argon is not active - in its own right. JPL in the early seventies had lots of brainpower... but... No one here believes that even JPL cannot be fooled (for a while at least). Their earlier finding could possibly have led to Aurora and it could possibly be now using active-Argon for fuel. Not likely... but getting more credible by the moment. More later as I have some new reports to check out... (the Russians are a little more open with some of their info - of late) ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 10:18:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49HI0do018533; Tue, 9 May 2006 10:18:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49HHvRZ018490; Tue, 9 May 2006 10:17:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:17:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=e3v2TRNSOQokuwMFhh+XLop662JOzxGWcCIALLvHa6cDFLzmbKPudnTx0jsjLJb0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006529171748911@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Simple Hero Type Campfire Generator Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:17:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2c4493b2d99c2984d966f3abca07b7d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Needed items. A tripod. A sealed cover 5 to 55 gallon drum, filled with water with holes at top edge and tangential diverter cups. Baling wire or cable. Two boards with a hole in them smeared with animal fat (grease thrust bearing). A generator with shaft connecting rod to top center of barrel, with cable to TV or laptop load A campfire. under the barrel. Hung from tripod top down, 1, Generator, 2, Greased-board thrust-bearing 3, Barrel. Sorry no kits available. :-) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Needed items.
A  tripod.
A  sealed cover 5 to 55 gallon drum, filled  with water
with holes at top edge and tangential diverter cups.
Baling wire or cable.
Two boards with a hole in them smeared
with animal fat (grease thrust bearing).
A generator with shaft connecting rod to top center of barrel,
with cable to TV or laptop load
A campfire. under the barrel.
 
Hung from tripod top down,
 
1, Generator, 
2, Greased-board thrust-bearing
3, Barrel.
 
Sorry no kits available.  :-)
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 10:23:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49HNXCU022637; Tue, 9 May 2006 10:23:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49HNRsA022598; Tue, 9 May 2006 10:23:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:23:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 13:23:43 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C841A47489586C-19F0-9D76@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: First PHEVs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The first 40 Dodge Sprinter PHEVs will go to Ca, Mo and NY: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060330/deth016.html?.v=46 with 5 cyl diesel or 6 cyl gas engines. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 11:21:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49IKuit026385; Tue, 9 May 2006 11:20:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49IKtRx026373; Tue, 9 May 2006 11:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:20:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060509175538294.47E7AB80008A@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 18:55:39 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: 60,000 psi Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a recent post Robin van Spaandonk questioned where this figure for the Beta-atmosphere pressure on water came from. I explained that it arose from the discovery of the PV^6 = a constant relation for water. Now I appreciate that it is very difficult to imagine that there exists such an atmosphere which holds materials together with these enormous pressures and gives them their strength. For that matter it is very difficult for a layman to appreciate that a pressure of 15 psi is acting on every square inch of his body - until perhaps an explosive decompression of his 747 sends him flying out of a window. 8-) I remember well the day that Stinks (our science master) demonstrated the effect of atmospheric pressure on a large rectangular metal can. Some water in the bottom of the can was heated to fill the can with steam and the cap was screwed on. The crunching and squealing of the metal as the can was crushed, as though by some giant invisible hand, impressed us all. It would make a nice demonstration to try the same thing on an obsolete 747 - but thinking about it, the pressure would probably be reduced prematurely by the windows and doors popping since they are designed to withstand outward, not inward pressure. It would be nice if one could arrange a similar demonstration for the Beta-atmosphere - but I can't really see how. There was one thing that occurred to me though. Imagine that water is a ball bearing type gas at STP. One gram-molecule will occupy a bit less than 22 litres. Let's say one gram mass occupies 1024 cc to make the maths easy. At 2 atmospheres we have 512 cc. 4 " " " 256 " 8 " " " 128 " 16 " " " 64 " 32 " " " 32 " 64 " " " 16 " 128 " " " 8 " 256 " " " 4 " 512 " " " 2 " 1024 " " " 1 " Now 1000 atmospheres isn't 3750 atmospheres admittedly - but its the right order of magnitude, and at STP water isn't a gas but a vapour and presumably has quite a bit of Beta-atmosphere pressure on it already. In effect this shows how the "attractive" forces which supposedly hold liquid water together can be seen as negations of the external Beta- atmosphere pressure. No doubt the argument could be refined by working at CPT (Critical Pressure and Temperature) rather than STP. Obviously, the argument is not intended as any kind of proof. It simply gives a feeling for the Gestalt switch involved in moving the active action from the inside of a material to the outside, from a photographic negative, to a photographic positive. Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 14:50:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49LoSFL020217; Tue, 9 May 2006 14:50:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49LoQdm020204; Tue, 9 May 2006 14:50:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:50:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 60,000 psi Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:50:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.42] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 9 May 2006 21:50:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k49LoOpw020180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Tue, 09 May 2006 18:55:39 +0100: Hi Frank, [snip] >There was one thing that occurred to me though. >Imagine that water is a ball bearing type gas at >STP. One gram-molecule will occupy a bit less >than 22 litres. > >Let's say one gram mass occupies 1024 cc to make >the maths easy. > >At 2 atmospheres we have 512 cc. > 4 " " " 256 " > 8 " " " 128 " > 16 " " " 64 " > 32 " " " 32 " > 64 " " " 16 " > 128 " " " 8 " > 256 " " " 4 " > 512 " " " 2 " >1024 " " " 1 " > >Now 1000 atmospheres isn't 3750 atmospheres >admittedly - but its the right order of magnitude, >and at STP water isn't a gas but a vapour and >presumably has quite a bit of Beta-atmosphere >pressure on it already. > >In effect this shows how the "attractive" forces >which supposedly hold liquid water together can >be seen as negations of the external Beta- >atmosphere pressure. No doubt the argument could >be refined by working at CPT (Critical Pressure >and Temperature) rather than STP. [snip] The latent heat of evaporation is the additional heat that needs to be added to water to overcome the "attractive" forces between the molecules, as opposed to simply raising the temperature, i.e. increasing the kinetic energy of the molecules. At the boiling point of water (at 1 atm) this is 539.8 cal/gm. If this is multiplied by the density of water i.e. 1 gm/mL then the result is energy/volume = pressure. That pressure is 22300 atm. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 16:27:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k49NR4GC017975; Tue, 9 May 2006 16:27:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k49NR2rH017961; Tue, 9 May 2006 16:27:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:27:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 19:27:16 -0400 Message-Id: <8C841D73E2E5E4D-2310-B423@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: 60,000 psi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk That pressure is 22300 atm. <><><><><><> But, still, this is the Alpha-atmosphere. Try reading: http://us.share.geocities.com/terry1094/Diphase_Concept.pdf Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 21:51:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4A4o3s3013218; Tue, 9 May 2006 21:50:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4A4ZPwh006529; Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 21:35:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:35:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060509141516.12230.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060509141516.12230.qmail@web81115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.42] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 10 May 2006 04:35:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4A4ZJOZ006469 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 9 May 2006 07:15:16 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nasa.reptV....L [snip] Note that when they recycle the Argon, they also recycle any hydrinos that were created in the engine and still happen to be loose (i.e. not bound to the water). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 9 22:43:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4A5guQT002828; Tue, 9 May 2006 22:42:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4A5gsMc002813; Tue, 9 May 2006 22:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:42:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 60,000 psi Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:42:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8mr262llr5r1d5002m5gvd3cru3ktog2cr@4ax.com> References: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> <8C841D73E2E5E4D-2310-B423@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C841D73E2E5E4D-2310-B423@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.42] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 10 May 2006 05:42:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4A5gp23002771 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hohlrauml6d@netscape.net's message of Tue, 09 May 2006 19:27:16 -0400: Hi, [snip] >From: Robin van Spaandonk > >That pressure is 22300 >atm. > ><><><><><><> > >But, still, this is the Alpha-atmosphere. I thought the alpha atmosphere was normal atmospheric pressure caused by air molecules? >Try reading: > >http://us.share.geocities.com/terry1094/Diphase_Concept.pdf Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 00:42:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4A7g9Wx014427; Wed, 10 May 2006 00:42:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4A7g4nX014398; Wed, 10 May 2006 00:42:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 00:42:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=V7n/25Xh52NJ3CQ2UDf1k817bnCgvlEdD9k5ZyygYu/Lk5YwTED0udmRObfp21Y+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531074150780@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 01:41:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940efbf8e62929e60b7f4db78eb2d59e5e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.205 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders 3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode. For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC. OTOH, the electric fields at the Metal-Water Interfaces (about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for high field emission of electrons) which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to pull electrons from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from the water Autoionization OH - Anions. This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders where compression-combustion occurs. It Burns Water. :-) Cylindrical Capacitance http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Resistivity and Conductivity: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/resis.html#c2 No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode
surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders
3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode.
 
For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders
the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance
divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC.
 
OTOH, the electric fields at  the Metal-Water Interfaces
(about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells
dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts
across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter  (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for
high field emission of electrons)
which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to  pull electrons
from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from
the water Autoionization OH - Anions.
 
This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases
at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series
cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders
where compression-combustion occurs. It  Burns Water.  :-)
 
 
Cylindrical Capacitance
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Resistivity and Conductivity:
 
 
No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:10:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4A9AJ72012382; Wed, 10 May 2006 02:10:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4A9AHMS012370; Wed, 10 May 2006 02:10:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 02:10:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PVY3L7TKbtyGH9wV1u1hZh1PPj9EhCMr9wdAobbJq5BASo148q2B9jOzn1uKwOR+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200653109101676@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 03:10:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405dda89b5958e2df0d0c56e90c35b0e3a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.36 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If I get ambitious enough to build the cell for use on the $195.00 4-cycle (0.97 cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE I ordered. Easier to use in the kitchen using an electric drill or screwdriver to crank it over, and small $2.00 Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing; www.RCHobbies.org I would mount a stack of 2 inch "shallow pan" using 316L stainless bands for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth (SS tubing) called for in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, ie., the energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would be less. A friend in Michigan got a cost estimate on the Joe Cell from a machine shop. It was a pricey $1,200.00. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/10/2006 1:42:46 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders 3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode. For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC. OTOH, the electric fields at the Metal-Water Interfaces (about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for high field emission of electrons) which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to pull electrons from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from the water Autoionization OH - Anions. This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders where compression-combustion occurs. It Burns Water. :-) Cylindrical Capacitance http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Resistivity and Conductivity: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/resis.html#c2 No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If I get ambitious enough to build the cell for use on the
$195.00 4-cycle (0.97  cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE I ordered.
Easier to use in the kitchen using an electric drill or screwdriver to crank
it over, and small $2.00 Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing;
 
 
I would mount  a stack of  2 inch "shallow pan"  using 316L stainless bands
for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth  (SS tubing) called for
in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, ie., the
energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would
be less.
 
A friend in Michigan got a cost estimate on the Joe Cell from a machine shop.
It was a pricey $1,200.00.  :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/10/2006 1:42:46 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode
surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders
3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode.
 
For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders
the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance
divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC.
 
OTOH, the electric fields at  the Metal-Water Interfaces
(about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells
dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts
across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter  (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for
high field emission of electrons)
which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to  pull electrons
from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from
the water Autoionization OH - Anions.
 
This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases
at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series
cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders
where compression-combustion occurs. It  Burns Water.  :-)
 
 
Cylindrical Capacitance
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Resistivity and Conductivity:
 
 
No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 03:22:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AAMRHv005497; Wed, 10 May 2006 03:22:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AAMPAO005485; Wed, 10 May 2006 03:22:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 03:22:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Rac/C2Lzx7A6dJXaSX27vSXdDdiyxTfM4heO1Vi9c22gQkd5Lt9pTha6IbZ/mPG3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065310102215571@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 04:22:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dbd4648dbd06073c3efa55b3ca31e14b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.124 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Following this sage advice putting a resistance divider with four 1/2 ohm (or so) resistors connected between the 12 volt anode and the cathode tied to the floating plates would lock them so 3 volts at 6 amps would be on each of the series cells. http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm "When you connect capacitors in series, any variance in values causes each one to charge at a different rate and to a different voltage. The variance can be quite large for electrolytics. On top of that, once the bank is charged, each capacitor's leakage current also causes a *different* voltage across each capacitor. " "If you charge a series bank up all the way, some caps are always undercharged and some overcharged (not good). To help them share voltage equally, you add balancing resistors. Basically they act like a big voltage divider and counteract the effects of variance in capacitance and leakage current. And if there is no leakage current, the capacitors must eventually become charged according to the voltage divider values" Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/10/2006 3:10:53 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories If I get ambitious enough to build the cell for use on the $195.00 4-cycle (0.97 cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE I ordered. Easier to use in the kitchen using an electric drill or screwdriver to crank it over, and small $2.00 Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing; www.RCHobbies.org I would mount a stack of 2 inch "shallow pan" using 316L stainless bands for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth (SS tubing) called for in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, ie., the energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would be less. A friend in Michigan got a cost estimate on the Joe Cell from a machine shop. It was a pricey $1,200.00. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/10/2006 1:42:46 AM Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders 3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode. For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC. OTOH, the electric fields at the Metal-Water Interfaces (about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for high field emission of electrons) which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to pull electrons from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from the water Autoionization OH - Anions. This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders where compression-combustion occurs. It Burns Water. :-) Cylindrical Capacitance http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Resistivity and Conductivity: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/resis.html#c2 No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Following this sage advice putting a resistance divider
with four 1/2 ohm  (or so) resistors connected between the
12 volt anode and the cathode tied to the floating plates would lock them
so 3 volts at 6 amps would be on each of the series cells.
 
 
"When you connect capacitors in series, any variance in values causes each one to charge at a different rate and to a different voltage. The variance can be quite large for electrolytics. On top of that, once the bank is charged, each capacitor's leakage current also causes a *different* voltage across each capacitor. "
 
"If you charge a series bank up all the way, some caps are always undercharged and some overcharged (not good). To help them share voltage equally, you add balancing resistors. Basically they act like a big voltage divider and counteract the effects of variance in capacitance and leakage current. And if there is no leakage current, the capacitors must eventually become charged according to the voltage divider values"
 
Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/10/2006 3:10:53 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

If I get ambitious enough to build the cell for use on the
$195.00 4-cycle (0.97  cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE I ordered.
Easier to use in the kitchen using an electric drill or screwdriver to crank
it over, and small $2.00 Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing;
 
 
I would mount  a stack of  2 inch "shallow pan"  using 316L stainless bands
for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth  (SS tubing) called for
in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, ie., the
energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would
be less.
 
A friend in Michigan got a cost estimate on the Joe Cell from a machine shop.
It was a pricey $1,200.00.  :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/10/2006 1:42:46 AM
Subject: RE: Joe Cell Theories

The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode
surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders
3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode.
 
For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders
the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-capacitance
divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC.
 
OTOH, the electric fields at  the Metal-Water Interfaces
(about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells
dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts
across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter  (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for
high field emission of electrons)
which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to  pull electrons
from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from
the water Autoionization OH - Anions.
 
This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases
at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series
cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders
where compression-combustion occurs. It  Burns Water.  :-)
 
 
Cylindrical Capacitance
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Resistivity and Conductivity:
 
 
No links found for concentric resistance calculation. ran out of gas.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 04:15:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ABF5Ge023824; Wed, 10 May 2006 04:15:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ABF3Yq023793; Wed, 10 May 2006 04:15:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 04:15:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FcW+uCAEEogkcloi8+E01Xbn/9kMcZn00t2nbosRg/t34YBkOeICXGstUS6Fxthb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065310111443630@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Joe Cell Design Summary Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 05:14:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406baec9c53cffa81ad551b70eb94566bf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.198 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Three-page PDF, Joe Cell Design Blueprints: http://pesn.com/2006/04/13/9600257_Bill_Williams_threatened/Joe_Cell_rev5_Apr14_2006.pdf Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm Putting a resistance divider with four 1/2 ohm (or so) resistors connected between the 12 volt anode and the cathode tied to the floating plates would lock them so 3 volts at ~ 6 amps would be on each of the series cells. http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm "When you connect capacitors in series, any variance in values causes each one to charge at a different rate and to a different voltage. The variance can be quite large for electrolytics. On top of that, once the bank is charged, each capacitor's leakage current also causes a *different* voltage across each capacitor. " "If you charge a series bank up all the way, some caps are always undercharged and some overcharged (not good). To help them share voltage equally, you add balancing resistors. Basically they act like a big voltage divider and counteract the effects of variance in capacitance and leakage current. And if there is no leakage current, the capacitors must eventually become charged according to the voltage divider values" Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder? 4-cycle (0.97 cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE. Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing; www.RCHobbies.org A stack of 2 inch "shallow pan cells" using 316L stainless "bands" for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth (SS tubing) called for in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, IE., the energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would be less. The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders 3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode.For water with Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance- capacitance divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC. OTOH, the electric fields at the Metal-Water Interfaces (about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for high field emission of electrons) which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to pull electrons from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from the water Autoionization OH - Anions. This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders where compression-combustion occurs. It Burns Water. :-) Cylindrical Capacitance http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Resistivity and Conductivity: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/resis.html#c2 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Three-page PDF, Joe Cell Design Blueprints:
 
 
Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles:
 
 
Putting a resistance divider with four 1/2 ohm  (or so) resistors
connected between the 12 volt anode and the cathode tied to the
floating plates would lock them so 3 volts at ~ 6 amps would be on
each of the series cells.
 
 
"When you connect capacitors in series, any variance in values causes each one to charge at a different rate and to a different voltage. The variance can be quite large for electrolytics. On top of that, once the bank is charged, each capacitor's leakage current also causes a *different* voltage across each capacitor. "
 
"If you charge a series bank up all the way, some caps are always undercharged and some overcharged (not good). To help them share voltage equally, you add balancing resistors. Basically they act like a big voltage divider and counteract the effects of variance in capacitance and leakage current. And if there is no leakage current, the capacitors must eventually become charged according to the voltage divider values"
 
Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder?
4-cycle (0.97  cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE.
Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank
it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing;
 
 
A stack of  2 inch "shallow pan cells"  using 316L stainless "bands"
for the electrolysis cells rather than the 10 inch depth  (SS tubing) called for
in the low pressure chamber so that the "Brown's Gas" yield would be greater, IE., the
energy-wasting recombination of 2 H to H2 or 2 O to O2 etc. would
be less.
 
The Joe Cell plans call for a 2 inch diameter cathode
surrounded by three concentric floating cylinders
 3 inch, 4 inch, 5 inch, surrounded by the 6 inch diameter anode.For water with
Megohm-meter resistivity (rho) between the cylinders
the resistance R = rho*spacing/Area acts as a resistance-
capacitance divider allowing small current flow at 12 to 15 volts DC.
OTOH, the electric fields at  the Metal-Water Interfaces
(about 0.7 Square Meters Area) with the 4 cells
dividing the voltage into electrolysis cells with about 3 volts
across each, approach over a Billion Volts/Meter  (1.5 volts/nanometer is used for
high field emission of electrons)
which can allow Autoionization H3O+ or H+ Cations to  pull electrons
from the metal cathode, or allow the metal anodes to pull electrons from
the water Autoionization OH - Anions.
 
This mechanism can allow copious production of O, OH, and O2 gases
at the anode surfaces and H and H2 gases at the cathodes of the four series
cells mixed with H2O vapor that can be drawn into the ICE cylinders
where compression-combustion occurs. It  Burns Water.  :-)
 
 
Cylindrical Capacitance
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Resistivity and Conductivity:
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 05:58:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ACwe8e030441; Wed, 10 May 2006 05:58:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ACwbrA030412; Wed, 10 May 2006 05:58:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 05:58:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:58:32 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84248936D8C4F-126C-C60A@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060509175539.0098f6b0@pop.freeserve.net> <8C841D73E2E5E4D-2310-B423@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> <8mr262llr5r1d5002m5gvd3cru3ktog2cr@4ax.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <8mr262llr5r1d5002m5gvd3cru3ktog2cr@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: 60,000 psi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk >But, still, this is the Alpha-atmosphere. I thought the alpha atmosphere was normal atmospheric pressure caused by air molecules? <><><><><><> But the state change energy is a function of the alpha atmosphere. Hmmm, possibly both alpha and beta are involved here. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 07:21:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AELe1J002719; Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AELckR002706; Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=EOSDjMYRy4vF7LWm3jkWPNHumuSXcKrDXiguXC083Vg7x7eONtkv+TmsKWkRZfvS96WQGU+EO3zqFPnK9Xe2yTRr/EYG9qcgRmEvTKbqTMNoE31tkHELLb0z6GwOZ4P5pLUaxFzRAqT7pi3aogGxC2FBV6klDxemvDNuEuHsIPA= ; Message-ID: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <_wFd9D.A.Mq.wbfYEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978nasa.reptV....L > Note that when they recycle the Argon, they also recycle any hydrinos that were created in the engine and still happen to be loose (i.e. not bound to the water). Yes, as I was about to say .... .... hydrinos are likely to be involved but as an "agent" for an Auger cascade methodology, and perhaps not in the way you are suggesting, based on Mills' published experiments. As mentioned in previous postings - If hydrinos are involved, and that is a strong possibility, it would seem to be more likely in the form of the hypothetical but ubiquitous metastable species 39K+Hy --> 40Ar which could be an ocean-derived primordial constituent of air... which is the result of the capture of solar hydrinos over geologic time by potassium - and is almost indistinguishable from normal argon - except for the proven "efficient radiation" phenomenon. Thankfully we have this body of hard-science results on this particualr phenomena, which are totally independent of Mills. In this situation then, the excess energy which shows up is probably not related to continuing "shrinkage" at all - so the Millsean stuff is out the window (except for the "original" solar hydrino itself)- as at any rate it would require too much energy input in the form of ionization which is simply not present in hydrogen combustion, even at the extremes of the Maxwellian energy distribution. Instead, the excess energy is related to repeatable Auger cascades, initiated by the imposed stress (or hydrogen combustion) on the primordial hyrino in the atomic k-shell (captured) - which is easily disrupted because of its enormous comparative mass - and with the Auger cascade energy being then replenished by ZPE - as would be expected to happen in the Puthoff role of ZPE sustaining electron orbitals at preferred (quantum) levels - which is its main function in nature. Following this disruption in the Argon k-shell, the hydrino is recaptured (or never really leaves) and the process is repeatable until gradually the hydrinos are lost and escape the engine, due to their small size. Argon would need to be "exchanged" periodically in such an engine with a fresh supply. Only a few ppm of Argon need to be of this metastable variety, in order for this hypothetical scenario to play out. Bottom line: IMHO what we have in this and in other active-Argon situations is a ZPE phenomenon, not a hydrogen-shrinkage phenomenon- except in the sense of a primordial species (containing a solar-hydrino) acting as an agent for an Auger cascade. Best part of this scenario - falsifiability. Argon Auger cascades have a spectral signature which is so recognizable that it cannot be denied, if demonstrated. And there is a sound (to me) theoretical basis for this whole complicated scenario, including Puthoff's ZPE role, which is absent from most of the Mills' (more controversial) assumptions. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 07:44:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AEiZhe021181; Wed, 10 May 2006 07:44:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AEiXCx021163; Wed, 10 May 2006 07:44:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:44:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,110,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1143503250:sNHT1380805246" Message-ID: <23947863.1147272271418.JavaMail.root@fepweb07> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 7:44:31 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Jones Beene wrote: ... > Best part of this scenario - falsifiability. Argon > Auger cascades have a spectral signature which is so > recognizable that it cannot be denied, if > demonstrated. And there is a sound (to me) theoretical > basis for this whole complicated scenario, including > Puthoff's ZPE role, which is absent from most of the > Mills' (more controversial) assumptions. > > Jones Gee Jones! You make it sound so plausible! ;-) So, what's holding up the dog and pony show? How difficult (technically and financially) would it be to see if this intriguing phenomena performs as advertised? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 08:34:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AFY1lx013610; Wed, 10 May 2006 08:34:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AFXxsl013592; Wed, 10 May 2006 08:33:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:33:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KH8YhslMDrn3N4HgRXGIye5GgQbew7/5i8KuavC3sMpf4pYxF74o2HC1uhsy9gz1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065310153352480@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:33:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bfc54dacdcb39263d289000aa04b0f71350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.241 Resent-Message-ID: <-AYvD.A.TUD.mfgYEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Steven Vincent Johnson wrote. > > Gee Jones! > > You make it sound so plausible! ;-) > Yes, Steven, at expense of about 4 half-lives (~ 1.25 billion years) of Potassium-40 left here mixed with Potassium-39 when the earth formed about 5 Billion years back if my memory serves. There goes Potassium-40-Argon-40 (Positron Decay of K-40) dating. Robin did an inventory of atmospheric Argon-40 based on the earth's lithosphere-hydrosphere Potassium abundance and the numbers suggest (to me) that Electronium (*e-) formed in K-40 decay (even in rocks) is in the electron cloud of Argon-40 daughter or in the electron cloud of any (O or CO2, O2) water H2O that was nearby at the time of the K-40 Positron Decay. So who you gonna believe? :-) Fred. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Steven Vincent Johnson wrote.
>
> Gee Jones!
>
> You make it sound so plausible! ;-)
>
Yes, Steven, at expense of about 4 half-lives  (~ 1.25 billion years)
of Potassium-40  left here mixed with Potassium-39 when the earth formed
about 5 Billion years back if my memory serves.
 
There goes Potassium-40-Argon-40 (Positron Decay of K-40) dating.
 
Robin did an inventory of atmospheric Argon-40 based on
the earth's lithosphere-hydrosphere Potassium abundance and the numbers
suggest (to me) that Electronium (*e-) formed in K-40 decay (even in rocks)
is in the electron cloud of Argon-40 daughter or in the electron cloud
of any (O or CO2, O2) water H2O that was nearby at the time of the K-40 Positron Decay.
 
So who you gonna believe?   :-)
 
Fred.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 08:48:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AFluEX019931; Wed, 10 May 2006 08:48:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AFlsGX019899; Wed, 10 May 2006 08:47:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:47:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44620B22.9040203@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:47:46 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.13) Gecko/20060501 Fedora/1.7.13-1.1.fc4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second law out the window? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Hi, > > Read the last paragraph. :) > > http://www.physorg.com/news65961016.html But they're "converting" brownian motion to linear motion by pumping energy in, in the form of laser light. Off hand, it doesn't _sound_ like anything in the system is even potentially OU. But, of course, one would have to read the original article in PRL with care to figure out what's really going on here... I would certainly like to know more about the "Brownian motors" they talk about cells using for protein trasport. My impression (very vague!) was that when cells transported anything it required an energy input, unless it was going down a concentration gradient. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 09:02:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AG2ZFA026192; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:02:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AG2XD9026174; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:02:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:02:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:02:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And Cornell! See: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 09:21:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AGLGGH001908; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:21:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AGLFsA001894; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:21:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:21:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=x6ahes4bsnay+RK7CLkJtYW1V3vsopfP/nFIlx6Pup7o5BvDEe7lOQzfOvUUd2NWi3LSeNf6RAOR5z9FNRlJMOaKeAL4LK962Vl8Lp6nuBAjORxkF1Hfux0Hh00QCsgH1/Mr3QdmU2WcjtyH/Pk4eh32zX6IFs4iTdWUe35cBts= ; Message-ID: <20060510162111.78502.qmail@web81103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:21:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <23947863.1147272271418.JavaMail.root@fepweb07> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: > > Best part of this scenario - falsifiability. Argon Auger cascades have a spectral signature which is so recognizable that it cannot be denied, if demonstrated. And there is a sound (to me) theoretical basis for this whole complicated scenario, including Puthoff's ZPE role, which is absent from most of the Mills' (more controversial) assumptions. > You make it sound so plausible! ;-) It has only started coming together in recent days. There is a lot of unprocessed information which is pending and might change the situation... > So, what's holding up the dog and pony show? As always, time.... and eventually it will be limited by funding availability, if and when it gets down to building an engine. But one suspects that a simple defining experiment would get the ball rolling. > How difficult (technically and financially) would it be to see if this intriguing phenomena performs as advertised? Not difficult for the *properly equipped lab* to verify a spectral signature, based on a very high-compression ignition of hydrogen oxygen and argon. The CalTech lab would be ideal, but.... they have other commitments, no doubt. Otherwise, for a lesser lab - impossible - as we are talking about containing a 5000+ psi explosion in the context of x-ray spectroscopy. Mills may have already done it (unpublished) but there is no evidence that he has looked for soft-X-rays under any circumstances, which is a bit surprising, given that they are easier to document (technically) and much more meaningful than EUV, energy-wise . Ironically this outcome (auger cascade) would probably NOT happen under vacuum conditions, his [Mills'] normal regime. And since such a finding of soft x-rays would both reinforce but also compromise parts of the CQM theory, except ironically in proving the existence of hydrinos, Mills would not want to publish a mixed-verdict, one suspects. Unfortunately labs like CalTech are manned by folks who are a bit sensitive about performing "not invented here" work, and especially "fringe" experiments - even fringe experiments which are based on mainstream data (reinterpreted). Especially if it is their own mainstream data (as the "reinterpreted" part equates with embarassing). I hope to begin looking for an independent lab soon, and funding is already being explored, pending all of the loose-ends being tied up. Of course, this work could all have been done previously - at JPL/CalTech, but not available to the public. By next week, things may change of course, as this is a house-of-cards which is all premised on a handful of real (but older) experiments which may not tie together as nicely as hoped - on closer examination. If I had to pick out one key info-resource which in need of re-examination (outside of what JPL may have tucked away) it would be work by Alfven which is available in old Journals and a hassle to dig out. Of course - it is always possible that if any of this relates to the unacknowledged "Aurora" program - then it is all lost in a black hole of intrigue... hopefully not. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 09:23:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AGNN5l002954; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:23:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AGNLjg002911; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:23:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:23:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <27139355.1147278192429.JavaMail.root@fepweb07> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 9:23:12 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: > And Cornell! See: > > http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html > > It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. > > - Jed > ...in an off-handed way. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 09:46:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AGjtOU013902; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:45:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AGjsWW013887; Wed, 10 May 2006 09:45:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:45:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <15554244.1147279550168.JavaMail.root@fepweb07> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 9:45:50 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones sez: ... > Of course, this work could all have been > done previously - at JPL/CalTech, but not > available to the public. > > By next week, things may change of course, > as this is a house-of-cards which is all > premised on a handful of real (but older) > experiments which may not tie together as > nicely as hoped - on closer examination. > As the Klingons are apt to say under the circumstances, "Good hunting!" > If I had to pick out one key info-resource > which in need of re-examination (outside of > what JPL may have tucked away) it would be > work by Alfven which is available in old > Journals and a hassle to dig out. > > Of course - it is always possible that if > any of this relates to the unacknowledged > "Aurora" program - then it is all lost in > a black hole of intrigue... hopefully not. > > Jones Speaking of "Aurora", see: http://www.orionworks.com/artgal/svj/MayEncounters_M.htm Allegedly, this scene transpired back in the mid 1980s, approximately 15 miles north west of Madison, Wisconsin. A witness commissioned me to paint what he saw. Your tax dollars at work...I hope. steve Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 10:44:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AHi73K007297; Wed, 10 May 2006 10:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AHi5Rd007270; Wed, 10 May 2006 10:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060510104356.028f8988@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:46:48 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3730187==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3730187==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wonder what Trudeau has in mind? Does he know about this, I wonder? Title: Cold fusion archive, 1989-1993. Collection Number: 4451 Quantity: 16.9 cubic ft. Forms of Material: Audio Recordings, Computer Media, Repository: Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections, Cornell University Library Abstract: The archive consists of four major types of information: original manuscript and published materials produced by principles in cold fusion; mass media articles about cold fusion, including newspapers, magazines, books, radio broadcasts, and television broadcasts and consisting of original clippings, off-the-air recordings, computer printouts, digital camera cassettes, and transcripts; taped interviews with researchers, research administrators, public information representatives, and journalists involved in cold fusion; and items of material culture. At 09:02 AM 5/10/2006, you wrote: >And Cornell! See: > >http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html > >It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. > >- Jed > > --=====================_3730187==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wonder what Trudeau has in mind?


Does he know about this, I wonder?


Title:
Cold fusion archive, 1989-1993.
Collection Number:
4451
Quantity:
16.9 cubic ft.
Forms of Material:
Audio Recordings, Computer Media,
Repository:
Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections, Cornell University Library
Abstract:
The archive consists of four major types of information: original manuscript and published materials produced by principles in cold fusion; mass media articles about cold fusion, including newspapers, magazines, books, radio broadcasts, and television broadcasts and consisting of original clippings, off-the-air recordings, computer printouts, digital camera cassettes, and transcripts; taped interviews with researchers, research administrators, public information representatives, and journalists involved in cold fusion; and items of material culture.


At 09:02 AM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
And Cornell! See:

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip.

- Jed


--=====================_3730187==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:18:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AIISOT025732; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:18:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AIIRfh025707; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:18:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:18:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510141254.03e37570@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:18:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060510104356.028f8988@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060510104356.028f8988@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12123640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12123640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >Does he know about this, I wonder? > > >Title: >Cold fusion archive, 1989-1993. >Collection Number: >4451 This is Bruce Lewenstein's collection. See: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bvl1/ - Jed --=====================_12123640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

Does he know about this, I wonder?


Title:
Cold fusion archive, 1989-1993.
Collection Number:
4451

This is Bruce Lewenstein's collection. See: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bvl1/

- Jed
--=====================_12123640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:22:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AILwFP027498; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:21:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AILvXg027478; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:31:39 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The real joke here is that both Alex and the professor are talking from textbooks and not from actual experience. No test equipment manufacturer sells an ideal current source. What you can actually build or buy, are constant current sources. Real constant current or contant voltage source can be told apart with nothing more than a RatShack multimeter. Short both, and see which one is still working after driving the dead short. Amusingly enough, you could tell from the temp rise that the _voltage_ source is the hotter one, if it doesn't fail or explode. Mistake piled on mistake. It made me laugh, that's for sure, so it's a good comic anyway. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:02 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry And Cornell! See: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:26:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AIPqOH029638; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:25:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AIPpVb029608; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:25:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:25:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=R4kI1ePdOWDEMQtT9yRiXrZgBxgX3Ldc3AiFUSEMzpPEku5hW0GYotJRxS9s3f33; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065310182539166@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:25:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b6158e41b503b3ac71dcddbf923d1953350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.195 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks WROTE: > > > Speaking of "Aurora", see: > > http://www.orionworks.com/artgal/svj/MayEncounters_M.htm > > Allegedly, this scene transpired back in the mid 1980s, approximately 15 miles north west of Madison, Wisconsin. A witness commissioned me to paint what he saw. > > Your tax dollars at work...I hope. > Great picture, Steve. Kind of like Jones hard to tell which way it's going. :-) Fred > > steve > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 11:26:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AIQU1E030087; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:26:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AIQSt3030064; Wed, 10 May 2006 11:26:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4462304C.5060408@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:26:20 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.13) Gecko/20060501 Fedora/1.7.13-1.1.fc4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510115742.03e37570@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060510104356.028f8988@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060510104356.028f8988@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > I wonder what Trudeau has in mind? Just looks like he's trying to make the girl -- Doonesbury's daughter, right? I haven't followed this in umpteen years -- look like a techno type, and provide an amusing way of judging technical schools, I'd say. I wouldn't look any deeper than that. The current-source/voltage-source puzzle is totally standard among double-E's, and comes up from time to time as a riddle. Trudeau stated it wrong, of course (or rather, stated it incompletely) and gave the wrong reason for the difference, in that _both_ boxes must contain a resistor. The difference is that the resistor in the current-source box is carrying a constant 1 amp, while the resistor in the voltage source is carrying no current. Trudeau himself is apparently no techno-whizz, though he knows some buzzwords and clearly knows people who know something about science, technology, and engineering. I still remember when Mike was buying a computer, a long long time ago, and he was asked how many "floppsies" he wanted in it (one or two). Since these strips are hand-lettered (or rather, these strips _were_ hand-lettered back then) I don't think it was a typo -- just a mistake in the name by a non-techie: everybody else calls 'em "floppies". Anyhow the "correct" form of the riddle goes more like this: There are two black boxes, each with two terminals on it. One contains an ideal 1 amp current source in parallel with a 1 ohm resistor; the other contains an ideal 1 volt voltage source in series with a 1 ohm resistor. How do you tell which is which? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 12:11:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AJB53n019982; Wed, 10 May 2006 12:11:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AJB3en019949; Wed, 10 May 2006 12:11:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:11:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:20:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4462304C.5060408@pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, You write: >There are two black boxes, each with two terminals on it. One contains >an ideal 1 amp current source in parallel with a 1 ohm resistor; the >other contains an ideal 1 volt voltage source in series with a 1 ohm >resistor. How do you tell which is which? OK, that at least fits the answer, although it's still not an experiment that can really be done in practice. I can understand this if we're talking about black holes or something, but this is electrical engineering, and we certainly ought to be able to do actual experiments to understand the subject. It's no wonder so many EE's seem to have great difficulty when confronted with an actual analog circuit. The way this stuff is taught is utterly confusing and disconnected from reality. For example, I just built a practical constant current source, using a 5000V voltage supply and a .5 meg resistor in series. Crude, but quite effective for loads under about 50Kohms. For loads over that value, now it folds over and looks more like constant voltage. Elegant? No, but sometime brute force is the best way forward. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 12:45:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AJitLU005749; Wed, 10 May 2006 12:44:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AJisY1005736; Wed, 10 May 2006 12:44:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:44:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <446242AC.3030803@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:44:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.13) Gecko/20060501 Fedora/1.7.13-1.1.fc4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > The real joke here is that both Alex and the professor > are talking from textbooks and not from actual experience. Now wait a minute. First of all, Alex is still in school. She's not going to have a lot of real world experience -- cut her some slack! Second, she's talking to a college prof, in an accademic environment, and this really is a pretty standard puzzle, used to elucidate various circuit models. So, of course he's heard of it and knows the "correct" "theoretical" answer. Finally, somebody I know conducted a casual poll of engineers around BBN a long time back, popping this question on them. The only one who _immediately_ got the "right" answer was an aging hardware engineer with lots of hands-on experience. The young guys shortly out of college who never touched anything that wasn't digital gave answers along the lines of "uuuhh -- golly, you can't, can you..." Sure, it's just a gedanken experiment, but none the less a lot of engineers have chuckled over it at one time or another. 'Course it was that same engineer who fixed the power supplies on some set of IMPs so the machines would work in Europe. When asked how to tell if a particular IMP had the fix, he said, "Just listen to it when you turn it on. If it doesn't go 'thwong' it's fine." > No test equipment manufacturer sells an ideal current source. > What you can actually build or buy, are constant current > sources. Real constant current or contant voltage > source can be told apart with nothing more than a RatShack > multimeter. Short both, and see which one is still working > after driving the dead short. Amusingly enough, you could > tell from the temp rise that the _voltage_ source is the > hotter one, if it doesn't fail or explode. Sure, but the "touch them" answer is given with the assumption that they've both just been sitting there on the lab bench for a while. > Mistake piled > on mistake. It made me laugh, that's for sure, so it's > a good comic anyway. Then there was that old story told to undergrads, of the box found in the college basement, labeled "1 amp, no matter what"... > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:02 PM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry > > > And Cornell! See: > > http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html > > It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 13:21:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AKKfdu020209; Wed, 10 May 2006 13:20:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AKKd8w020189; Wed, 10 May 2006 13:20:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:20:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:30:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <446242AC.3030803@pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, >First of all, Alex is still in school. She's not going to have a lot of >real world experience -- cut her some slack! Ahhh, I've been following the strip. She has several patents, founded a startup, and is being courted by several foreign companies for product development work. (grin) She ought to know better. >Second, she's talking to a college prof, in an accademic environment, >and this really is a pretty standard puzzle, used to elucidate various >circuit models. So, of course he's heard of it and knows the "correct" >"theoretical" answer. Yeah, as you put the problem, it has educational value in terms of circuit theory. Great for multiple choice questions, but the poor kid gets stumped when a real live power supply is needed. >'Course it was that same engineer who fixed the power supplies on some >set of IMPs so the machines would work in Europe. When asked how to >tell if a particular IMP had the fix, he said, "Just listen to it when >you turn it on. If it doesn't go 'thwong' it's fine." Definitely sounds like my kinda guy. Of course, it's just a comic. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 13:33:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AKX7bs025407; Wed, 10 May 2006 13:33:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AKX3d4025371; Wed, 10 May 2006 13:33:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060510163043.03d881a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:32:52 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry In-Reply-To: References: <446242AC.3030803@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Yeah, as you put the problem, it has educational value in terms >of circuit theory. Great for multiple choice questions, but the >poor kid gets stumped when a real live power supply is needed. She does not get stumped! The prof. at MIT got stumped by this question. She has been asking this question to evaluate the profs. See the previous cartoons at this same web site. She got a phone messages that Bill Gates called to entice her to Harvard. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 16:22:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AN08Nx017936; Wed, 10 May 2006 16:02:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ALWw2N019595; Wed, 10 May 2006 14:32:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:32:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060510172151.00ba6fb8@localhost> X-Sender: mica%pop.theworld.com@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:22:25 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on pcls4.std.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1455/Wed May 10 11:34:38 2006 on pcls4.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:02 PM 5/10/2006 -0400, you wrote: >And Cornell! See: > >http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html > >It's not often you see "Thevenin and Norton equivalences" in a comic strip. > >- Jed Actually, the Doonsbury cartoon is flawed and incorrect. Despite what the cartoon states, "since the current source (Norton equivalent) has a resistor", the fact is that BOTH Thevenin and Norton circuits have internal resistors. [Also, this internal impedance is often not considered in cold fusion circuits (as we have pointed out for quite a while). The presence of an internal equivalent resistor in the power supply (and in both equivalent circuits) can be seen in any EE or Ham radio book, or on the web, for example at http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/mastascu/eLessonsHTML/Source/Source2.html Thus, what should have been stated is that the in open circuit mode, there will be current flowing through resistor across the current source in the Norton equivalent causing it to be warmer. FWIW, the resistor is merely heating from dissipation, and that is not really calorimetry, either, which would have required calibration. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 16:22:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4AN0hLJ018187; Wed, 10 May 2006 16:03:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4AN0f5v018159; Wed, 10 May 2006 16:00:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:00:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ZRdZGn91CtlhoPn3ft4sZDNP03FIp1Fv9WioWxEBwVdzNlNrWgDHAqs5bBp0MFhlm//jPbPQw57B/cleOuCQmSypdf06PnzPKqZlv13FKKO4KemoYukTzai9kCP9NlETzGM+AeBjEqs5agCjRTMjp06PUV5Zp31m0aEh9k7jgh8= ; Message-ID: <20060510230026.29786.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: ouch!... the pinch of "Z" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Efficient argon K-shell radiation from a Z pinch at currents >15 MA" H. Sze, et al March 2001 The first observations of gaseous load implosions with over 15 MA in >110 ns on the Z generator are reported. "K-shell x-ray output reached ~274 kJ in a 15 TW peak power, 12 ns pulse. This record-high yield is consistent with the current-squared scaling predicted for the "efficient" emission regime." ©2001 American Institute of Physics. Paper not available w/o a subscription account. Well. "current-squared" scaling is an interesting concept for alternative energy advocates, no? Chances are... that kind of scaling should get you to OU eventually. At least that is an implication. Recently much higher current was reported in the Science News from Sandia, but the details of "efficent emission" were somehow left out of those more recent reports ... wonder why? ... and there are many who believe that the OU regime was seen at Sandia (they did not claim that), but without real thermonuclear effects - that would be in the more recent Z machine results. Soon to be a "black project"? ... or is the oil supply sitaution so critical now that details will be forthcoming to the public... to hopefully allow others to dosey-do in the current-square-dance ...? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 16:58:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ANwdi6009661; Wed, 10 May 2006 16:58:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ANwdfR009653; Wed, 10 May 2006 16:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:58:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060510170116.02a15518@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:01:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) MAY 10, 2006 -- Issue #16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_3986031==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3986031==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3986031==.ALT" --=====================_3986031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Emacs! Your best source for cold fusion news and information. May 10, 2006 -- Issue #16 ISSUE #16 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm EDITORIALS AND OPINION 1. From the Editor 2. To the Editor NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS 3. Pirelli Labs to Collaborate with ENEA on Cold Fusion Research 4. RCCNT&BL-14 - 14th Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation of Chemical Elements and Ball Lightning 5. Transcript of Department of Commerce Hearing Available ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES 6. A Close Look at Russ George's D2Fusion Inc. 7. The Inventor of Everything 8. D2Fusion's Details Demystified 9. $2 Million, Theoretically 10. D2Fusion Takes Cold Fusion Figurehead for a Spin 11. Experts Argue About Cold Fusion 12. Purdue University Scientist Stands By His Findings 13. PUBLICATIONS 14. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS 15. BITS AND PIECES New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. ---------- If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_3986031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Emacs!
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
May 10, 2006 -- Issue #16


 ISSUE #16 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm

 

EDITORIALS AND OPINION
 1.   From the Editor
2.   To the Editor
NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
 3.   Pirelli Labs to Collaborate with ENEA on Cold Fusion Research
4.   RCCNT&BL-14 - 14th Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation of Chemical Elements and Ball Lightning
5.   Transcript of Department of Commerce Hearing Available
ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES
 6.   A Close Look at Russ George's D2Fusion Inc.
7.   The Inventor of Everything
8.   D2Fusion's Details Demystified
9.   $2 Million, Theoretically
10. D2Fusion Takes Cold Fusion Figurehead for a Spin
11. Experts Argue About Cold Fusion
12. Purdue University Scientist Stands By His Findings
13. PUBLICATIONS
14. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS
15. BITS AND PIECES 



New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.


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X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: OT: The Mystery Tiles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No, nothing to do with Shuttle. At least, probably not: http://www.toynbee.net/ Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 17:15:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B0FUwt018361; Wed, 10 May 2006 17:15:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B0FSCl018342; Wed, 10 May 2006 17:15:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:15:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=k4Jzm47biMbsnjpIJzPVqjKzddPbmoajbUoITokAtyGrdVQWzFPx4dYFpG7CSFqD; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <1506068.1147306527461.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 20:15:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC "Doonsbury" features calorimetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c15b0792f4a3695f27bf81b362716beea676ae045857c2f36350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: <9546OB.A.ieE.gIoYEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Okay people, LIGHTEN UP. It's a comic strip. A joke. However, you are not the ones going overboard. The people at Cornell are gaga. See: http://www.news.cornell.edu/ http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/May06/Alexchooses.ws.html They even sent her a personalized bunny suit: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/doonesbury.fac.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 20:42:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B3gAZZ028954; Wed, 10 May 2006 20:42:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B3g8lE028936; Wed, 10 May 2006 20:42:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 20:42:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Cold Fusion Trend Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:52:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <99cZvB.A.EEH.PKrYEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Couldn't resist trying the new google search feature with our old friend, CF. http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22cold+fusion%22 Better bail faster Jed, the boat is sinking. (grin) OTOH, "hot fusion" gets so few hits that the trending software doesn't want to produce a graph. Perhaps google is just full of poop. Wouldn't be the first time. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 21:35:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B4Zjpx016976; Wed, 10 May 2006 21:35:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B4ZiUn016958; Wed, 10 May 2006 21:35:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 21:35:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <452.1161e8.31941917@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:35:35 EDT Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147322135" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147322135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/4/2006 10:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 eo200@freenet.carleton.ca writes: All this is only preliminary. I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work. B.F. Skinner in his book Walden II, shows us how we can all live comfortably= =20 working only part-time. If only some rich millionaires had built B.F. Skinne= rs=20 Walden II towns 50 years ago, we would all be living in them today, and=20 working part-time with plenty of leisure time.=20 I read one book on Utopian Societies, that projected that in the Future no=20 one will need to work or use money in the United Kingdom. With robotic=20 technologies, work will be less in the future, so that even part time work m= ay be a=20 luxury. In the future, we may all become artists and actors and each have o= ur=20 own TV channel and 15 minutes of fame as Any Wharhol claimed, since we may h= ave=20 nothing more to do with our time than entertain ourselves.=20 Why didn't B.F. Skinner's Walden II towns get built one may ask? Not becaus= e=20 of lack of funs, theory or inactive for sure. Such B.F. Skinner Walden II=20 town ideas could be built today in small shared cooperative apartment comple= xes=20 in every city for a mere 10 million dollars as I have proposed as posted at=20 [Secure Apartments and Condominiums] and at http://www.rhfweb.com/neighs.htm= l=20 and at the links below: Some typical self-sustaining socialistic community trust packages may includ= e: =20 Self sustaining apartment complex trust with a shared community center=20 [Secure Apartments and Condominiums] & factory trust [ Universal Multipurpos= e=20 Factories =A9 ] or entertainment center trust [Entertainment Clubs] packages= . Self-sustaining small neighborhood or small town trust [Prefabricated=20 Community Model Schematic ] [Secure Gated Community Plans and Designs ] & [U= pdated=20 Planned Community Designs, Models, and Investment Goals] with shared communi= ty=20 center and/or & factory trust [ Universal Multipurpose Factories =A9 ] or=20 entertainment center trust [Entertainment Clubs], and university trust [ Fol= k Town &=20 University Trusts =A9 Home Web Page at URL: www.rhfweb.com/ft], [Folk Town=20= &=20 Folk University Plans] packages.=20 The above proposed self-sustaining neighborhood community trust ideas are=20 posted at the following web links for further information: [Prefabricated Community Model Schematic ]=20 [ Secure & self-sustaining mini-mega pyramid communities ] [Prefabricated, automated, secure, & self sustaining community plans &=20 technologies ]=20 [ Universal Multipurpose Factories =A9 ] [Secure Private Banking =A9]=20 [Secure Motel-Transportation-Security Services =A9 ]=20 [International Law Court, Security, & Environmental Protection Agency =A9 ]=20 [Gentlemen's & Lady's Militia =A9 ]=20 [ The Starlight Entertainment Society Trust Co =A9. ]=20 [Enchanted Fairy Tale Forest Ether Force Field Energy Creation Plans] [Germanic Story Book Black Forest and Celtic Estate Plans] [Story Book Secure Self Sustaining Gated Community Plans]=20 [Underground Community Plans]=20 [ About Community Manager] [Community Virtual Reality Model and Object Data Structures] [Community Members & Managers Online Programs] ]=20 [Community Manager Main Menu Screen] =20 [Community Virtual Reality Manager Program ]=20 Best Regards,=20 =20 Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html,= =20 Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147322135 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/4/2006 10:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca writes:
All this is only preliminary. I want to say, i= n all seriousness, that a
great deal of harm is being done in the modern=20= world by belief in the
virtuousness of work, and that the road to happine= ss and prosperity lies in
an organized diminution of work.
B.F. Skinner in his book Walden II, shows us how we can all live comfor= tably working only part-time. If only some rich millionaires had built B.F.=20= Skinners Walden II towns 50 years ago, we would all be living in them today,= and working part-time with plenty of leisure time.
I read one book on Utopian Societies, that projected that in the Future=  no one will need to work or use money in the United Kingdom. = ; With robotic technologies, work will be less in the future, so that even p= art time work may be a luxury.  In the future, we may all become artist= s and actors and each have our own TV channel and 15 minutes of fame as Any=20= Wharhol claimed, since we may have nothing more to do with our time than ent= ertain ourselves.
 
Why didn't B.F. Skinner's Walden II towns get built one may ask?&n= bsp; Not because of lack of funs, theory or inactive for sure.  Su= ch B.F. Skinner Walden II town ideas could be built today in small= shared cooperative apartment complexes in every city for a mere 10 million=20= dollars as I have proposed as posted at [Secure Apartments and Condominiums] and at http://www.rhfweb.com/neighs.html and at t= he links below:
 
Some typical self-sustaining socialistic community trust packag= es may include:
 
Self sustaining apartment complex tru= st with a shared community center [Secure Apartments and Con= dominiums] & factory trust [ Universal Multipurpose Factories =A9 ] or entertainment center trust [Entertainment= Clubs] packages.
 
The above proposed self-sustaining neighborhood community trust ideas a= re posted at the following web links for further information:
 
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147322135-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 10 23:55:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B6smAo006074; Wed, 10 May 2006 23:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B6sdFf005978; Wed, 10 May 2006 23:54:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:54:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=O0UdkpIesIBCSVPwGDsRPiQMkQrP9qzdoMZA9/7oWM9/PbNVHqEEoZ59lWboO1zq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200654116542494@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Brown's Gas Generators and Mills' Hydrinos? Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:54:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ad60f0273a02b2a2d4f8d3322ea1bae4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.159 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Brown's Gas Generators: http://brownsgas.com/ Randy Mills' Blacklight Power: http://www.Blacklightpower.com/ Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder? 4-cycle (0.97 cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE. Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing; www.RCHobbies.org Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Brown's Gas Generators:
 
 
Randy Mills' Blacklight Power:
 
 
Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder?
4-cycle (0.97  cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE.
Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank
it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing;
 
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles:
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 00:04:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B74hYx010987; Thu, 11 May 2006 00:04:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B74fYV010968; Thu, 11 May 2006 00:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:04:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second law out the window? Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:04:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <44620B22.9040203@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <44620B22.9040203@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 11 May 2006 07:04:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4B74cFQ010932 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 10 May 2006 11:47:46 -0400: Hi, [snip] > > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Read the last paragraph. :) >> >> http://www.physorg.com/news65961016.html > >But they're "converting" brownian motion to linear motion by pumping >energy in, in the form of laser light. > >Off hand, it doesn't _sound_ like anything in the system is even >potentially OU. Probably not unless the laser light can reflect eternally off perfectly mirrored surfaces in a loss less optical resonant cavity, which may be the reason they don't expect OU any time soon. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 01:37:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4B8b10Y008179; Thu, 11 May 2006 01:37:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4B8axCt008156; Thu, 11 May 2006 01:36:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 01:36:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=evZPS5B69sPADm2dsc/JgUMP+DpY1NBaBc17W1Fa+to/fQ6xTR2kHk69nqOR4oAR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541183657106@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Brown's Gas Generators and Mills' Hydrinos? Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:36:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940240e293ee691fc5505180497874e97d6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Getting difficult to tell the difference. :-) http://pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ Brown's Gas Generators: http://brownsgas.com/ Randy Mills' Blacklight Power: http://www.Blacklightpower.com/ Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder? 4-cycle (0.97 cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE. Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing; www.RCHobbies.org Capacitance Divider: http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/theory/capacitors2.htm Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Getting difficult to tell the difference.  :-)
 
 

Brown's Gas Generators:
 
 
Randy Mills' Blacklight Power:
 
 
Argon catalyzed Hydrino Formation in the ICE combustion cylinder?
4-cycle (0.97  cubic inch) Remote Control (RC) model ICE.
Easier to use with an electric drill or screwdriver to crank
it over, and small Radioshack DC motors as generators for load testing;
 
 
 
Capacitance Divider:
 
 
Power Cycle Analysis Online Calculator :Otto and Diesel Cycles:
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 06:48:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BDm180003684; Thu, 11 May 2006 06:48:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BDlxmj003659; Thu, 11 May 2006 06:47:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:47:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511094441.03dedc08@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:47:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22cold+fusion%22 > >Better bail faster Jed, the boat is sinking. (grin) That is a weird graph. There is nothing on Y-axis. The 2005 blip may be the effect of the DoE Review, and I will bet the 2006 blip was caused by Taleyarkhan. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 06:54:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BDsMBi006974; Thu, 11 May 2006 06:54:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BDsKQx006942; Thu, 11 May 2006 06:54:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:54:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c67502$65ae8b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511094441.03dedc08@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:54:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <8lngxB.A.asB.MI0YEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And how much of it relates to the software package? The encouraging bit is that them main city for downloads seems to be Washington. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend > Keith Nagel wrote: > >>http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22cold+fusion%22 >> >>Better bail faster Jed, the boat is sinking. (grin) > > That is a weird graph. There is nothing on Y-axis. > > The 2005 blip may be the effect of the DoE Review, and I will > bet the 2006 blip was caused by Taleyarkhan. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 07:37:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BEb5H2028539; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:37:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BEb2CE028504; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:37:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:37:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:36:44 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BD3B6AD@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. Thread-Index: AcZ1CFMJQaUkIUqDQWSU4TAjQ43URA== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2006 14:36:44.0466 (UTC) FILETIME=[53514120:01C67508] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4BEaiX5028256 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 Given the cost premium over a regular vehicle, it's likely that hybrids are actually wasting more energy thru their entire lifespan, beginning with construction at the factory. On the other hand, they may permit an easier transition to at least part time electric cars. Se la vie. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 07:50:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BEoaPG002837; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:50:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BEoYTG002820; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:50:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cold Fusion Trend Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:00:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002201c67502$65ae8b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, Yeah, I mentioned the CF software to Robin as well. OTOH, if the software package was dominating the results we might expect more "left" coast action. Washington not being known for it's web2.0 acumen. But I wouldn't take the results very seriously. I was going to ask Jed about the spikes and I see he's already considered them without prompting. The lack of a y axis calibration is very annoying but google is pretty cheap with their quantitative data. One might do better to use their advertizing tools to get more detailed data. Here's one that the Bush admin claims is a national security issue for which they are trying to get all google search queries. Gotta protect those innocent babes. Sure thing, fellas. http://www.google.com/trends?q=porn&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all Looking at the regional information, Frank you dirty dog, what's in your search history (grin). This next one is the real deal, and you can see exactly how Washington was searching for them furiously... They've got to be _somewhere_, why not try google? http://www.google.com/trends?q=wmd&ctab=0&date=all&geo=all K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend And how much of it relates to the software package? The encouraging bit is that them main city for downloads seems to be Washington. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend > Keith Nagel wrote: > >>http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22cold+fusion%22 >> >>Better bail faster Jed, the boat is sinking. (grin) > > That is a weird graph. There is nothing on Y-axis. > > The 2005 blip may be the effect of the DoE Review, and I will > bet the 2006 blip was caused by Taleyarkhan. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 07:57:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BEvDI6006301; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:57:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BEvA2X006278; Thu, 11 May 2006 07:57:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:57:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003301c6750b$2c928e10$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: 'Fire from Ice' the prequel Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:57:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of "Fire from ice" and a possible *primordial* solar hydrino population (part of what is known as 'dark matter') .... the following astronomical observations can give an alternate explanation for the putative excess heat (in the form of EUV) seen by Mills/BLP... not to mention, expose a possible serious error by mainstream cosmologists (one of many). Comet Hyakutake - A decade ago - first observation of an X-RAY and EUV emitting COMET... totally unexpected. http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/rosat/hyakutake.html next came Hale-Bopp... same thing. Many more since then, thanks to Chandra (the x-ray telescope) - now we can get pretty good spectral information- so what gives? The strength of the EUV and X-ray emission from Comet Hyakutake took astronomers by surprise, at least 100 times stronger than theory based on a solar wind interaction - but they did not have the captured solar-hydrino in that theory. There are many other theories for this unusual source of high energy radiation - and obviously the x-rays and EUV are "triggered" by our sun's own captured emissions in the comet - but unfortunately that is not 'end-of-story'... Some comets show 1000 times more emitted energy than solar wind could possibly ever provide. ... and there are no clear lines, to prove a hydrino source of the EUV either- so Mills' original accounting cannot be verified ... and most importantly the space craft which we have sent into space show no surprises in capturing high energy radiation from the sun, such as could cause this well-documented 100x or greater anomaly. That is "no" as in zero, nada, zip and it is being emphasized because mainstream astronomers (with blinders firmly attached) want you to believe that this unusual cometary EUV and soft x-ray emission is coming mainly from the sun - not the comet itself. Baloney. The spectrum is fit by a thermal bremsstrahlung model of kT = 0.36 keV - and needless to say, any of our lunar missions would have melted in space if this were intercepted solar energy... and how could they be immune while comets capture it? .... but even so, that average energy is misleading, as the total 0.10-2.0-keV luminosity is 6 x 10^16 erg/s. Plus, this implies that if pure hydrino lines are present, their total luminosity must be "washed out" to < 10 percent of the continuum luminosity. IOW there are probably no hydrinos *being formed* to cause this huge anomaly in emitted radiation - but that does not mean that there are none there ! No, but it does imply that Mills could have gotten the hydrino part correct and totally 'blown-it' on how the excess energy is realized. And that failure can also relate to his earthbound experiments. The interesting point is this - what if primordial hydrinos are present in the comet-ice and "dirt" (beginning in the Oort cloud where they are born) but these highly shrunken hydrinos are buried in the inner orbitals of carbon and oxygen - two of the major heavier elements found in comets? Ans: This scenario can explain everything elegantly - as the energy which is seen and documented looks like Auger cascades from these elements. If these hydrinos (shrunken to maximum enthalpy) are forced out of their host atoms by a "trigger" (solar wind) - would not an Auger cascade result in a jumble of higher ionization lines with particular ratios, just as is seen? Later comets have shown emission lines at 320, 400, 490, 560, 600, and 670 eV. These can be fit into a number of possible ion species as Auger cascades - but aren't good fits for hydrinos. Not to mention, back on earth - have you noticed how sparse the spectroscopy data for EUV lines is - coming from BLP ??? We should have mounds of these charts, showing very pronounced lines - instead everything presented from them shows the same "wash-out" of lines... (unless the carts have been doctored by the well-known means)... while at the same time this same "washout" could definitely relate to Auger cascades of host catalysts - when the captured hydrinos are jostled about in inner orbitals ... IOW... it is the "catalysts" themselves which are giving us most of the excess energy (not all), independent of new formation of hydrinos in the Mills experiments ... and NOT the result of ongoing hydrino formation as his theory professes (although that ongoing formation may occur at lower levels, giving 10% or so of what is witnessed). The whole scenario is clouded by the fact that some new hydrinos may indeed be forming at the same time - and with effort you can distinguish these lines but they are NOT a major constituent of the spectrum. This problem has been rationalized by Mills in the past as a 'downshifting' due to absorption/re-emission. That is only partly true and in fact it is often more like an upshift in expected spectra. Instead of Mills explanation, consider for a moment that most of the excess energy could be coming from primordial hydrinos captured in the inner orbitals of the "catalysts" ! All the more reason to focus on the importance of language - and the fact that the real 'catalyst' in Mills' experiments may be hydrogen and the real agent for excess-energy may be what he is now calling the catalyst... yet... and this is somewhat serendipitous for Mills, as the real catalyst works only because it already contains a real hydrino (primordial and highly shrunken - usually in the k-shell). Now let me see... this is all a bit strange... how do I get back into that "box" this morning, and rejoin the consensual hallucination of matrix reality .... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 08:02:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BF29Kp009434; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:02:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BF28Vs009410; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:02:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:02:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511105937.03cbe248@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:02:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Trend In-Reply-To: <002201c67502$65ae8b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511094441.03dedc08@mindspring.com> <002201c67502$65ae8b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2kvPFC.A.-SC.wH1YEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:54 AM 5/11/2006, Jones Beene wrote: >And how much of it relates to the software package? I think that is usually listed as one word, "ColdFusion." When you search for "cold fusion" with Google, it asks if you mean "coldfusion." No doubt there is some crossover. My speculation about the causes of those blips was based on traffic at LENR-CANR.org. However, I was only guessing. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 08:45:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BFiwva029866; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:44:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BFit0J029839; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:44:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:44:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511110218.040c78a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:44:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BD3B6AD@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BD3B6AD@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8770671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3MvpiD.A.CSH.2v1YEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8770671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Zell, Chris wrote: >Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA >says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. > >http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 But they are the best in mileage! According to the Consumer Reports list on this page! It is obvious why there is such a large difference between actual and measured performance with hybrid cars. They are more sensitive to driving conditions and the driver's skill than regular cars. I usually get 45 to 50 mpg, which is 10 or 15 mpg below the EPA city driving estimate of 60 mpg. However, I have gone for hours at a time getting 75 mpg. The record is 110 mpg for a full tank. No ordinary car will have that range of performance. >Given the cost premium over a regular vehicle, it's likely that >hybrids are actually wasting more energy thru their entire lifespan, >beginning with construction at the factory. The construction at the factory does not take any more energy for a hybrid than any other car. Actually, since hybrid production lines are the newest and best, it probably takes considerably less energy. The other numbers depend upon how much you drive. Assume that Consumer Reports are correct and the Prius gets 45 mpg (which is actually the bare minimum in my experience). The best non-hybrid is the Volkswagen, which gets 34 mpg. None of the others come close. Compare the Volkswagen to the Prius. The average US driver goes ~12,000 miles per year, and it true that at that rate the Prius will not pay for itself compared to the VW. But for anyone who drives a lot more, it will pay. Some numbers: Prius list price: $21,725 VW Jetta: $17,900 Difference: $3,825 Gasoline savings per year at 12,000 miles: 85 gallons, $256 (at $3 per gallon). Payback time: 15 years Payback time if you drive 24,000 miles: 7 years. Look at a Honda Accord, starting MSRP $18,224, 25 mpg (Consumer Reports) Payback time if you drive a Honda Accord 24,000 miles: 2.7 years How about a Ford Crown Victoria LX? MSRP $24,510, 16 mpg. You lose going in, and at 24,000 miles per year every year you pay an extra $2,901. After 7.5 years you have lost enough to pay the entire cost of a Prius! You could have had a free automobile with the money you have wasted on fuel. There may be some smaller, cheaper cars that get 34 mpg like the Volkswagen Jetta. My Geo Metro probably does, and the little bitty cars in Japan do. However, compared to a Jetta or a Prius, the Geo Metro is -- not to put too fine a point on it -- a death trap. It has very light construction and virtually no safety features except for seatbelts. The tires slip on a wet pavement as easily as bicycle tires do. On a level pavement, it will not go about 65 mph with the gas pedal fully depressed, and even at that speed it rattles and shakes like a Model T Ford. It also carries far less baggage, and the people in the back are crammed in. These limitations are not a problem for me, because the Geo Metro is far safer than a motorcycle or bicycle, and I seldom go over 45 mph with it. As for those little bitty Japanese cars, years ago when a friend of mine accidentally dropped the rear wheel off the road into a ditch, he and I picked up the car and put it back. As I said they are much better than motorcycles but you would be crazy to drive one on a US Highway. - Jed --=====================_8770671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Zell, Chris wrote:

Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA
says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460

But they are the best in mileage! According to the Consumer Reports list on this page!

It is obvious why there is such a large difference between actual and measured performance with hybrid cars. They are more sensitive to driving conditions and the driver's skill than regular cars. I usually get 45 to 50 mpg, which is 10 or 15 mpg below the EPA city driving estimate of 60 mpg. However, I have gone for hours at a time getting 75 mpg. The record is 110 mpg for a full tank. No ordinary car will have that range of performance.


Given the cost premium over a regular vehicle,  it's likely that hybrids are actually wasting more energy thru their entire lifespan, beginning with construction at the factory.

The construction at the factory does not take any more energy for a hybrid than any other car. Actually, since hybrid production lines are the newest and best, it probably takes considerably less energy.

The other numbers depend upon how much you drive. Assume that Consumer Reports are correct and the Prius gets 45 mpg (which is actually the bare minimum in my experience). The best non-hybrid is the Volkswagen, which gets 34 mpg. None of the others come close. Compare the Volkswagen to the Prius. The average US driver goes ~12,000 miles per year, and it true that at that rate the Prius will not pay for itself compared to the VW. But for anyone who drives a lot more, it will pay. Some numbers:

Prius list price: $21,725
VW Jetta: $17,900
Difference: $3,825

Gasoline savings per year at 12,000 miles: 85 gallons, $256 (at $3 per gallon).
Payback time: 15 years
Payback time if you drive 24,000 miles: 7 years.

Look at a Honda Accord, starting MSRP $18,224, 25 mpg (Consumer Reports)
Payback time if you drive a Honda Accord 24,000 miles: 2.7 years

How about a Ford Crown Victoria LX? MSRP $24,510, 16 mpg. You lose going in, and at 24,000 miles per year every year you pay an extra $2,901. After 7.5 years you have lost enough to pay the entire cost of a Prius! You could have had a free automobile with the money you have wasted on fuel.

There may be some smaller, cheaper cars that get 34 mpg like the Volkswagen Jetta. My Geo Metro probably does, and the little bitty cars in Japan do. However, compared to a Jetta or a Prius, the Geo Metro is -- not to put too fine a point on it -- a death trap. It has very light construction and virtually no safety features except for seatbelts. The tires slip on a wet pavement as easily as bicycle tires do. On a level pavement, it will not go about 65 mph with the gas pedal fully depressed, and even at that speed it rattles and shakes like a Model T Ford. It also carries far less baggage, and the people in the back are crammed in. These limitations are not a problem for me, because the Geo Metro is far safer than a motorcycle or bicycle, and I seldom go over 45 mph with it.

As for those little bitty Japanese cars, years ago when a friend of mine accidentally dropped the rear wheel off the road into a ditch, he and I picked up the car and put it back. As I said they are much better than motorcycles but you would be crazy to drive one on a US Highway.

- Jed
--=====================_8770671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 08:54:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BFshBa001959; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:54:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BFsgk7001937; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:54:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:54:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,116,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="119858257:sNHT19089990" Message-ID: <21922869.1147362879313.JavaMail.root@fepweb06> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 8:54:39 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68129 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From ThomasClark123 ... > B.F. Skinner in his book Walden II, shows us how we can > all live comfortably working only part-time. If only some rich > millionaires had built B.F. Skinners Walden II towns 50 years > ago, we would all be living in them today, and working > part-time with plenty of leisure time. Hi Thomas, While it would be nice I don't know how realistic the prediction of working part-time will turn out to be, particularly within my lifetime. Here's a related topic you might enjoy reading: Google: "cohousing" The modern day village concept is alive and well. From what I have read living in a cohousing environment makes a lot of practical sense. One of the best aspects of living within a cohousing environment is that the community, on a regularly chosen schedule, eats together within a large community building. Chores are shared among the community. Not everyone HAS to own their own lawn mower! Every family continues to maintain their own separate homes either in clustered apartment buildings or clustered free-standing independent homes. Privacy is maintained. However, the entire "village" is deliberately designed so that community members have easy access to a centralized communal building where everyone regularly gets together to eat and socialize. I believe Dennmark was one of the pioneering countries to begin constructing entire communities around this concept. Cohousing has caught on in a few places in the U.S. as well. I believe there is an African saying: "It take a village to raise a child." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 10:20:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BHKNMF008348; Thu, 11 May 2006 10:20:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BHKLam008321; Thu, 11 May 2006 10:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:20:18 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C843364F207125-634-3B0@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: 60,000 psi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You can tell when someone like Grimer is getting close to the truth . . . his emails get "lost" in transit. Posted for Frank: <><><><><><><> I suppose I should really change the name of this thread to a quarter of a million psi - but I rather like the, now historical, sixty thousand. It has overtones of Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea - or even of that heroic folly characteristic of my countrymen's courage and incompetence, ============================= "Forward, the Light Brigade!" Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the soldier knew Someone had blunder'd: Their's not to make reply, Their's not to reason why, Their's but to do and die: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred." ============================ And now on with the business of explaining PV^6 = a constant in a way that even my grandchildren will be able to understand it - well, perhaps not all fifty . In the traditional exposition of Boyle's Law for gasses one is presented with a image of a lot of little hard perfectly elastic tiny spherical particles bouncing around inside a container and exerting a pressure on the walls. Halve the volume and double the pressure. Halve it again and it doubles again and so on and so forth which leads inexorably to one of the first bits of physics schoolboys encounter. pressure x volume = a constant Mind you, when I think about it I have grave doubts how many men in the street could answer the question: "What is Boyle's Law" though I am confident every member of this discussion group can. 8-) [I asked my youngest daughter who's a philosophy graduate and she didn't have a clue 8-( ] Now one thing that is never referred to is the aether space between the particles. This is completely ignored and treated as nothingness. As Wiki tells us, "today the aether is considered to be an obsolete scientific theory". What about Casimir? - Well, what about it. In most of the references I have looked up on Casimir they go to extraordinary lengths to refer to it in terms of an internal tension which is pulling the plates together. They religiously avoid in viewing it as an external pressure. That would be scien-tically incorrect since it would imply that space had an atmospheric type property of being able to exert a pressure - a very thin end of a very fat wedge - and the engineers amongst us will all know what one can do with wedges - (which reminds me of a funny story - but I've got to the age where one is never sure if one has told that story before - so I've stuck it on the end.) ;-) Where was I. Ah yes, space. Well, the reality is that space ain't empty at all. It's stuffed full of Beta-atmosphere (inter alia) which is under a humongous pressure. When the particles (the Solid Phase) are far apart the inside and outside B-atm. (the Fluid Phase pressures) balance and can be ignored It is differential Solid Phase pressure which is governs the volume. As the particles get closer together the internal B-atm. is increasingly shielded from the external B-atm. and its pressure drops. In other words the datum for the compression on the Solid Phase is dropping as the internal Fluid Phase expands. In the case of Bridgman's water results, dp = - 6 dv This is because the Fluid Phase is expanding six times faster than the solid phase is contracting. Most of the energy involved in compressing the water is coming from the expansion of the internal Beta-atmosphere. It's a classic servo-mechanism situation. 8-) How can I be so sure this interpretation is correct. Because the very first piece of way-out research (LN 167/FJG/1962) I undertook involved measuring the strength of clays and clays stabilized with cement (inter alia). These gave the same power relations for pressure versus volume as water. In the case of clays however one can measure the negative pressures of the Fluid Phase (pore water) directly and doesn't have to infer them as Robin has done so helpfully. Interestingly enough the research was so far ranging and intruded on so many other people's patches at the Road Research Lab that my director, Sir William Glanville, ordained that NOT FOR PUBLICATION was printed in caps on the cover. That's when I knew it must be good stuff. 8-) Well, it's been, err.... 44 years since that note came out - but at least I now really understand its significance. Truth certainly does grind exceedingly slow. I'll have to scan the note in and put it on the Beta-atmosphere group site - a bit of a pain cos it's on foolscap sized pages - what the Lab used before we went over to A4 Cheers, Frank Grimer ****************************************** Our mechanical engineering lecturer had a strong German accent and one day he was at the board talking about the action of a wedge which he kept pronouncing vedge. Soto voce someone pipes up from the back of the class, "Two veg?" which brings the response "No. Only vun vedge." followed by peals of uncontrolled mirth from the students. Unfamiliar as he was with the British expression "meat and two veg" I'm sure the poor man never understood the class reaction. ****************************************** ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 11:40:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BIdepZ009381; Thu, 11 May 2006 11:39:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BIddd2009353; Thu, 11 May 2006 11:39:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:39:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511141955.03ccdcb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:39:29 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8Qc5zC.A.FSC.qT4YEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree with Russell for the most part, but this is a serious error: >Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the >amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for >everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the >men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the >production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, >war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were >withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general >level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the >Allies was higher than before or since. That's completely wrong. In the U.K. the general level of well-being was maintained at a high standard because the British were being supported by the efforts of American workers. Their food, tractors, railroad equipment, building equipment, gasoline and much else came from the US. (At first it was paid for out of British reserves, and later it came under lend lease.) Given the fraction of the British population that was diverted into the war effort, if it had not been for the tremendous mountains of material goods coming from the US, the British people would have starved in large numbers, and they would have been living in dire poverty, and freezing to death in winter. The convoys leaving the U.S. were full, and they came back empty. This was the most unbalanced trade in history. Furthermore, the British prolonged the use of many material goods in ways that could not have continued indefinitely. For example they established large clothing exchanges, so that adults and especially small children wore hand-me-downs for the duration. You can stop manufacturing clothing for 5 or 10 years, but eventually clothing will be reduced or rags and people will be naked. The British also ran automobiles and other equipment ragged, and they postponed maintenance. Another five years and there would not have been any working civilian automobiles, refrigerators, or hot water heaters left in the country. Meanwhile, back in the US, the general level of well-being and material prosperity was greatly reduced. Automobile sales, for example, ended abruptly a few weeks after Pearl Harbor. Not a single automobile was sold to any civilian until late 1945. The entire stock of completed automobiles available in January 1942 was held for use by the military. Many other goods and commodities were rationed, such as cigarettes and beef, or they were completely unavailable to civilians, such as zippers and automobile tires. Of course this was entirely justified, but my point is that Russell's arithmetic is wrong. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 11:40:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BIe6FS009700; Thu, 11 May 2006 11:40:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BIaRrm008177; Thu, 11 May 2006 11:36:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:36:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <42a.b0f9bd.3194de0b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:35:55 EDT Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147372555" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147372555 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/2006 11:55:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionworks@charter.net writes: > B.F. Skinner in his book Walden II, shows us how we can > all live comfortably working only part-time. If only some rich > millionaires had built B.F. Skinners Walden II towns 50 years > ago, we would all be living in them today, and working > part-time with plenty of leisure time. Hi Thomas, While it would be nice I don't know how realistic the prediction of working part-time will turn out to be, particularly within my lifetime. Here's a related topic you might enjoy reading: Google: "cohousing" The modern day village concept is alive and well. From what I have read living in a cohousing environment makes a lot of practical sense. One of the best aspects of living within a cohousing environment is that the community, on a regularly chosen schedule, eats together within a large community building. Chores are shared among the community. Not everyone HAS to own their own lawn mower! Every family continues to maintain their own separate homes either in clustered apartment buildings or clustered free-standing independent homes. Privacy is maintained. However, the entire "village" is deliberately designed so that community members have easy access to a centralized communal building where everyone regularly gets together to eat and socialize. I believe Dennmark was one of the pioneering countries to begin constructing entire communities around this concept. Cohousing has caught on in a few places in the U.S. as well. I believe there is an African saying: "It take a village to raise a child." Thanks for the above information. I am glad that others are allowed to get those communities started. The US government will not allow me to get such shared communities started in the US, since I am not part of their third world ape clan, and they target me to prevent me from getting them started. People from Denmark are related to the Lion/Angelic(Bird) clans from the planet Venus according to the royal crest of Denmark being a Cat/Angel crest as Mel Gibson's movie Hamlet depicts, who are not Black African Ape Clans, though some would have us think otherwise. Just like Shakespeare's Hamlet, many of us are being quietly genocided and replaced by communist ape clan impostors from the third world pretending to be Hamlet's father. Most of the Angelic clans and cultures in the United Kingdom that B.F. Skinner belonged to, have been quietly genocided since World War II, since those that won World War II were not Angelic clans but the non-Angelic communist Ape and other Tolkien like Mordor Orcish third world clans. This may be why B.F. Skinner could not get such communities started for his people, though Communist China and African Ape clans could. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147372555 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/11/2006 11:55:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, orionwo= rks@charter.net writes:

> B.F. Skinner in his book Walden II, s= hows us how we can
> all live comfortably working only part-time. If o= nly some rich
> millionaires had built B.F. Skinners Walden II towns 5= 0 years
> ago, we would all be living in them today, and working
&= gt; part-time with plenty of leisure time.

Hi Thomas,

While i= t would be nice I don't know how realistic the prediction of working part-ti= me will turn out to be, particularly within my lifetime. Here's a related to= pic you might enjoy reading:

Google: "cohousing"

The modern da= y village concept is alive and well. From what I have read living in a cohou= sing environment makes a lot of practical sense. One of the best aspects of=20= living within a cohousing environment is that the community, on a regularly=20= chosen schedule, eats together within a large community building. Chores are= shared among the community. Not everyone HAS to own their own lawn mower! E= very family continues to maintain their own separate homes either in cluster= ed apartment buildings or clustered free-standing independent homes. Privacy= is maintained. However, the entire "village" is deliberately designed so th= at community members have easy access to a centralized communal building whe= re everyone regularly gets together to eat and socialize. I believe Dennmark= was one of the pioneering countries to begin constructing entire communitie= s around this concept. Cohousing has caught on in a few places in the U.S. a= s well.

I believe there is an African saying: "It take a village to r= aise a child."
Thanks for the above information. I am glad that others are allowed to=20= get those communities started.  The US government will not allow me to=20= get such shared communities started in the US, since I am not part of their=20= third world ape clan, and they target me to prevent me from getting them sta= rted.
 
People from Denmark are related to the Lion/Angelic(Bird) clans from th= e planet Venus according to the royal crest of Denmark being a Cat/Angel cre= st as Mel Gibson's movie Hamlet depicts, who are not Black African Ape Clans= , though some would have us think otherwise.  Just like Shakespeare's H= amlet, many of us are being quietly genocided and replaced by communist ape=20= clan impostors from the third world pretending to be Hamlet's father. =20=
 
Most of the Angelic clans and cultures in the United Kingdom that B.F.=20= Skinner belonged to, have been quietly genocided since World War II, since t= hose that won World War II were not Angelic clans but the non-Angelic commun= ist Ape and other Tolkien like Mordor Orcish third world clans.  T= his may be why B.F. Skinner could not get such communities started for his p= eople, though Communist China and African Ape clans could.
<= /DIV>
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147372555-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 12:10:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BJALES024122; Thu, 11 May 2006 12:10:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BJAJpx024100; Thu, 11 May 2006 12:10:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:10:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <3d9.2666c02.3194e612@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:10:10 EDT Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147374610" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147374610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/2006 10:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lloyd_miller@comcast.net writes: [Lloyd Miller Sez:] Skinner was TOTALITARIAN SCUM! Totally opposed by his own explicit words to freedom and dignity. [Lloyd said] [Lloyd Miller Sez:] Bertrand Russell was environmentalist extremist, anti-industrialist. . . thought the British Empire could be preserved or replaced with World Government through his idiotic ideas. [Lloyd said] B.F. Skinner does debate the totalitarian idea in his Walden II book, where the creator of Walden II, named Frazier, was compared to a fascist totalitarian like Hitler, since he claimed that only a strong willed individual fascist leader could get such small socialistic communities started and keep them running. B.F. Skinner was the professor in Walden II who at first strongly opposed Walden II, and the totalitarian Frasier but in the end decided to leave the University for Walden II. B.F. Skinner is a genius of the best sort since he criticizes his own ideas, and even hints that he is aware of some of their faults. I got the impression from reading Walden II, that B.F. Skinner was not at all like the ruthless scientist that he is portrayed as publicly in many biographies about him, but rather a very kind hearted person who would rather live in a world where people care about each other. Without B.F. Skinner's Walden II book, there would be not formal theoretical and academically supported text book on such ideas as are presented in the book. I can quote a famous psychologist like B.F. Skinner to support new shared community ideas. I will have to read Russell's ideas on world government. I would hope they are much better than the United Nations. I developed world governmental ideas which are not centralized nor nationalized to protect only one majority preferred elite culture, but localized to protect each local minority culture and each individual world wide and to end needless nationalized wars. Much like B.F. Skinner, Bertrand Russell also was a revolutionary genius, who as a perfect example of Plato's Philosopher King should encourage a world government that would end needless nationalistic world wars, and yet protect each minority culture and each individual world wide form the mass majority culture which presently is a communistic third and criminal underworld world culture promoted by the United Nations. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147374610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/11/2006 10:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lloyd_m= iller@comcast.net writes:

[Lloyd Miller Sez:] Skinner was TOTALITARIAN SCUM! =20= Totally opposed by his own explicit words to freedom and dignity. [Lloyd sai= d]<= /P>

 

[Lloyd Miller Sez:] Bertrand Russell was environmentalis= t extremist, anti-industrialist. . .  thought the British Empire could be preserved or replaced with World Gover= nment through his idiotic ideas.  [Lloyd said]

B.F. Skinner does debate the totalitarian idea in his Walden II book, w= here the creator of Walden II, named Frazier, was compared to a fascist= totalitarian like Hitler, since he claimed that only a strong willed i= ndividual fascist leader could get such small socialistic communities starte= d and keep them running.   B.F. Skinner was the professor in=20= Walden II who at first strongly opposed Walden II, and the totalitarian Fras= ier but in the end decided to leave the University for Walden II.  B.F.= Skinner is a genius of the best sort since he criticizes his own ideas, and= even hints that he is aware of some of their faults.  I got the impres= sion from reading Walden II, that B.F. Skinner was not at all like the ruthl= ess scientist that he is portrayed as publicly in many biographies= about him, but rather a very kind hearted person who would rather live in a= world where people care about each other.  
 
Without B.F. Skinner's Walden II book, there would be not formal theore= tical and academically supported text book on such ideas as are present= ed in the book.  I can quote a famous psychologist like B.F. Skinner to= support new shared community ideas.
 
I will have to read Russell's ideas on world government. I would hope t= hey are much better than the United Nations.  I developed world go= vernmental ideas which are not centralized nor nationalized&n= bsp;to protect only one majority preferred elite culture, but localized to p= rotect each local minority culture and each individual world wide and t= o end needless nationalized wars.  
 
Much like B.F. Skinner, Bertrand Russell also was a revolutionary geniu= s, who as a perfect example of Plato's Philosopher King should encourag= e a world government that would end needless nationalistic world wars, and y= et protect each minority culture and each individual world wide fo= rm the mass majority culture which presently is a communistic third and crim= inal underworld world culture promoted by the United Nations.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
 
-------------------------------1147374610-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 12:43:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BJhH5n005389; Thu, 11 May 2006 12:43:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BJhCjs005357; Thu, 11 May 2006 12:43:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:43:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:42:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511141955.03ccdcb0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The essay is dated 1932 (at the top), so Russell is referring world war 1. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > I agree with Russell for the most part, but this is a serious error: > >> Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the >> amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for >> everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the >> men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the >> production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, >> war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were >> withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general >> level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the >> Allies was higher than before or since. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 13:50:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BKoQnj029523; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:50:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BKoPHv029505; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:50:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:50:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:49:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: the political economy of energy distribution To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the 24th century there is no need for money in Gene Roddenberry's world of Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades before Star Trek first appeared on television... http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 14:13:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BLDYgc005198; Thu, 11 May 2006 14:13:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BLDWoD005180; Thu, 11 May 2006 14:13:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:13:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511170714.040ea778@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:13:24 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511141955.03ccdcb0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >The essay is dated 1932 (at the top), so Russell is referring world war 1. Goodness! I sure missed that one. However, it was true of World War I, albeit to a lesser extent. The British economy was dependent upon US food and weapons production from 1916 to 1918, and they did cut back on essential civilian production such as clothing. As I said, you can stop things like that for a while, but not for decades. The British were also heavily dependent upon exploiting their colonies. It was not slavery, but Englishmen were living off of the work of Africans and Indian people. I think by the 1930s the colonies were no longer economically beneficial, but in World War II they went back to heavy exploitation for the war effort and millions of Indian people starved to death. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 14:22:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4BLMKhm008665; Thu, 11 May 2006 14:22:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4BLMIpu008634; Thu, 11 May 2006 14:22:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:22:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: the political economy of energy distribution Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BD3BA2B@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: the political economy of energy distribution Thread-Index: AcZ1PJz/qUtziNZZTsGyOsBuauekRQABBEwg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2006 21:22:13.0995 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8D8C3B0:01C67540] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4BLMFBA008611 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At the risk of being classified as a Startrek nerd, they did use something called "gold pressed latinum" on Startrek Deep Space Nine. The Ferengis were always after it. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:50 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: OT: the political economy of energy distribution In the 24th century there is no need for money in Gene Roddenberry's world of Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades before Star Trek first appeared on television... http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 17:36:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C0aTn3011755; Thu, 11 May 2006 17:36:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C0aM0T011693; Thu, 11 May 2006 17:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:36:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,117,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="306964456:sNHT268421912" Message-ID: <1231845208.1147394179128.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:36:18 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: the political economy of energy distribution Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <-9DldB.A.l2C.Fi9YEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- "Zell wrote: > At the risk of being classified as a Startrek nerd, they did use > something called "gold pressed latinum" on Startrek Deep Space Nine. > The Ferengis were > always after it. The energy certificate concept is interesting, particularly with computer technology in mind. Take heart Chris. You could be labeled something far worse than a Star Trek Nerd. A Republican. >From your friendly commie pinko bleeding heart liberal democrat Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could > function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades > before Star Trek first appeared on television... > > http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 20:44:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C3iJpL022201; Thu, 11 May 2006 20:44:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C3iHCn022187; Thu, 11 May 2006 20:44:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:44:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:44:13 -0400 From: Pteranodon Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-reply-to: <3d9.2666c02.3194e612@aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakeside1.net Message-id: <200605122344.14021.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <3d9.2666c02.3194e612@aol.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 11 May 2006 15:10, ThomasClark123@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/11/2006 10:43:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > lloyd_miller@comcast.net writes: > [Lloyd Miller Sez:] Skinner was TOTALITARIAN SCUM! Totally opposed by his > own explicit words to freedom and dignity. [Lloyd said] > > [Lloyd Miller Sez:] Bertrand Russell was environmentalist extremist, > anti-industrialist. . . thought the British Empire could be preserved or > replaced with World Government through his idiotic ideas. [Lloyd said] > B.F. Skinner does debate the totalitarian idea in his Walden II book, where > the creator of Walden II, named Frazier, was compared to a fascist > totalitarian like Hitler, since he claimed that only a strong willed > individual fascist leader could get such small socialistic communities > started and keep them running. B.F. Skinner was the professor in Walden > II who at first strongly opposed Walden II, and the totalitarian Frasier > but in the end decided to leave the University for Walden II. B.F. Skinner > is a genius of the best sort since he criticizes his own ideas, and even > hints that he is aware of some of their faults. I got the impression from > reading Walden II, that B.F. Skinner was not at all like the ruthless > scientist that he is portrayed as publicly in many biographies about him, > but rather a very kind hearted person who would rather live in a world > where people care about each other. > > Without B.F. Skinner's Walden II book, there would be not formal > theoretical and academically supported text book on such ideas as are > presented in the book. I can quote a famous psychologist like B.F. Skinner > to support new shared community ideas. > > I will have to read Russell's ideas on world government. I would hope they > are much better than the United Nations. I developed world governmental > ideas which are not centralized nor nationalized to protect only one > majority preferred elite culture, but localized to protect each local > minority culture and each individual world wide and to end needless > nationalized wars. > > Much like B.F. Skinner, Bertrand Russell also was a revolutionary genius, > who as a perfect example of Plato's Philosopher King should encourage a > world government that would end needless nationalistic world wars, and yet > protect each minority culture and each individual world wide form the mass > majority culture which presently is a communistic third and criminal > underworld world culture promoted by the United Nations. > > Best Regards, > > Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron > President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: > http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: > http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html > Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae > Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ > Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron > > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others All of which is largely academic inasmuch as we are breeding ourselves into an inevitable 'Easter Island Earth' scenario. Efforts to control our population growth has all ended as dismal failures at the hands of religion, failure of social safety nets or suspicion of the same, and 'tradition'. People want security, and know that only their own families will more likely provide them that! Governments who try to care for needy people eventually breed 'economists' and/or 'efficiency experts', you supply the name, but the end result is also the same. The nets become targets of unscrupulous opportunists about as soon as they become effective; and are taken down like in the United States and in Russia and now, it seems, China. On the other extreme they are overwhelmed as in the case of India, a place that went from four hundred millions who could barely feed themselves in the early 1950's to over a billion in the present who still barely feed themselves. And would not were it not for some discoveries in agriculture in the latter part of the twentieth century. Birth control would have alleviated China and India's problems. It was seriousely tried and failed, just like it has always failed. People cheat on these schemes using the 'shepherd's philosophy' where a few cheaters in a system depending on honesty for fairness tend of become economic winners simply because they are crooks. Hide the child. He/she grows up....result... one more chance that family's older members will be better cared for in their old age. Conversely....obey the law. Your few children leave or get swallowed up by some war or other calamity and you are left on the mercy of a state with a failed or soon to fail safety net and die in abject poverty...or OF abject poverty. Like if you were black and lived in the 'lower ninth ward' of New Orleans after Katrina. It matters little the politics that humanity use now. No 'ism' in the world will save a population at cross purposes with themselves. There are plenty 'cross purposes' to go around. Iranians have bred themselves silly to be ready for a 'war with the west' that may never arrive. In their case, no war would be a greater disaster than a war, as then that population would have to be fed instead of being consumed in a meatgrinder that some wars become. Many of the world's nations are population time bombs running into Malthus head on. These will become dangerous as they become hungrier. China will look first for water. Russia has this. Then for land for new agriculture. Viet-Nam has this. Many other examples abound all over the world. The Muslims think the west is their enemy. They think that all 'crusades' come from the 'west'. They are wrong. They forgot about Hulagu Khan the avenging Nestorian Christian that almost wiped Islam from the face of the planet. They look guardedly at the West and ignore the East. When India grows desparate enough for energy, the road through Pakistan, Baluchistan, lower Iran, Iraq, Syria, and the Saudi lands will be all to open and irresistably inviting. With tens of millions of troops, what middle eastern army would have a chance against them. It took India all of three days to finish off a huge army in East Pakistan in the troubles before the Bangladeshi revolution. . The American president wants to guarantee this scenario as it is the only way a petrochemical monopoly can continue to make windfall profits on the misery of the rest of the world. The mechanism for this is to deny the world the benefits of nuclear energy on the specious grounds of 'proliferation'. That this policy of supporting a foreign monopoly with American lives is a sure guarantee of a future debacle of bibical proportions never seems to occur to short sighted cabal of soul-less bureaucrats and faceless financiers. All know this as the visage of wars over vital life resourses begin to stalk a dying world. The future of human society, if we have a future, is in nuclear power or fusion power and in space. For there is where we have to go if we are to preserve our species. We are outgrowing our home and need to make and find new ones. No politics, religions, or financial schemes can alter this inexorable fact. Pteranodon From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:16:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C4Gdrv032634; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:16:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C4Gbax032622; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:16:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:16:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:16:33 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 12 May 2006 04:16:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4C4GYPc032583 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:33 -0700 (PDT): Hi Jones, [snip] >Yes, as I was about to say .... .... hydrinos are >likely to be involved but as an "agent" for an Auger >cascade methodology, and perhaps not in the way you >are suggesting, based on Mills' published experiments. [snip] Negative muons orbit at the Bohr radius (BR) * electron mass / muon mass. Hence hydrinohydride should try to do the same, i.e. BR * electron mass / hydrino mass, however this works out to a distance from the nucleus of only about 29 F. Problem # 1: According to Mills, the lowest level at which hydrino hydride can exist is p=24 (?). At which level it has a radius of BR / 24 = 2205 F according to Mills, and BR/(24^2) = 91.8 F according to me. Either way, it is larger than the distance at which it should orbit. This leaves several possible scenarios:- 1) It sits snug against the nucleus at it's own radius. 2) It shares it's shrunken electrons with the other nucleus in a covalent bond at very small radius (don't know how big), but it would have to be smaller than it's own radius or there wouldn't be any energy benefit in forming the bond. 3) It loses it's shrunken electrons to the heavier nucleus altogether, and is expelled from the heavier atom with extreme prejudice (possibly stealing a normal electron on the way out in revenge). 4) Is welcomed into the nucleus in a fusion reaction. BTW for the Auger scenario to play out, it would seem to me that one would have to put as much energy into the compound atom to dislodge the hydrino hydride as was initially released when it entered. This would have to be more energy than the Auger cascade frees, because those electrons were initially pushed up a level when the hydrino hydride entered in the first place (reverse Auger cascade), which wouldn't have happened unless the hydrinohydride bonding energy with the K nucleus were greater than the energy of the reverse Auger cascade. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:19:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C4JWeN001547; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:19:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C4JUwk001527; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:19:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:19:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 00:19:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution In-reply-to: <1231845208.1147394179128.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The article does not say this, but I suspect something like capitalism will still be required. A percentage of energy tokens may go unused because many people may be happy to consume less than their alloted share. The job of capitalists will be to compete for these surplus tokens ensuring the energy supply is not wasted and that society as a _whole_ remains "energised". Harry OrionWorks wrote: > ---- "Zell wrote: >> At the risk of being classified as a Startrek nerd, they did use >> something called "gold pressed latinum" on Startrek Deep Space Nine. >> The Ferengis were >> always after it. > > The energy certificate concept is interesting, particularly with computer > technology in mind. > > Take heart Chris. You could be labeled something far worse than a Star Trek > Nerd. > > A Republican. > > From your friendly commie pinko bleeding heart liberal democrat > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > >> >> Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could >> function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades >> before Star Trek first appeared on television... >> >> http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution >> >> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:29:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C4TLgK005446; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:29:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C4TJoH005411; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:29:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:29:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Pappajo engine Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:29:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220065310153352480@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220065310153352480@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 12 May 2006 04:29:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4C4TH6c005359 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Wed, 10 May 2006 09:33:52 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Robin did an inventory of atmospheric Argon-40 based on >the earth's lithosphere-hydrosphere Potassium abundance and the numbers >suggest (to me) that Electronium (*e-) formed in K-40 decay (even in rocks) >is in the electron cloud of Argon-40 daughter or in the electron cloud >of any (O or CO2, O2) water H2O that was nearby at the time of the K-40 Positron Decay. [snip] Actually, I just used Jones' number for K concentration in the ocean to calculate the total K in the oceans, and compared it to the total Ar in the atmosphere. IOW I didn't take K in the lithosphere into account at all. I reasoned that a continual exchange between the ocean and the atmosphere was possible[1] while K in the lithosphere tends to be locked up (until it dissolves and washes into the ocean). [1] Hydrinohydride binding with K in the ocean would form gaseous Ar which would rise to the surface and mix with the air. Ar in the air which was exposed to cosmic rays would lose it's bound hydrinohydride becoming K again, and would soon dissolve in rain water and end up back in the ocean. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 21:39:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C4dOe9009402; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:39:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C4dM9s009389; Thu, 11 May 2006 21:39:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:39:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:39:19 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <1231845208.1147394179128.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 12 May 2006 04:39:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4C4dJEK009365 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 00:19:02 -0500: Hi, [snip] > >The article does not say this, but I suspect something like capitalism will >still be required. A percentage of energy tokens may go unused because >many people may be happy to consume less than their alloted share. Energy is going to be almost "too cheap to meter". The only eternally valid unit of exchange is the "hour of work", since this is the only resource which we all value about equally. (The communists did get something right). Even in Star Trek they exchange "shifts". [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 23:10:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C69uZx005706; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:09:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C69sp3005680; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:09:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:09:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 02:08:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 00:19:02 > -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> The article does not say this, but I suspect something like capitalism will >> still be required. A percentage of energy tokens may go unused because >> many people may be happy to consume less than their alloted share. > > Energy is going to be almost "too cheap to meter". The only > eternally valid unit of exchange is the "hour of work", since this > is the only resource which we all value about equally. (The > communists did get something right). Even in Star Trek they > exchange "shifts". > IMO, as long as work, money, and energy consumption, are culturally linked the "too cheap to meter" dream will never be realised. Even if energy becomes 100 times less expensive, we, as individuals, will find ourselves consuming 100 times more energy. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 23:42:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C6gL7O016764; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:42:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C6gJx5016743; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:42:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:42:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:42:04 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3gb862hltmmnk9bncodtueu1rh6jnh6sr6@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 12 May 2006 06:42:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4C6g5fB016656 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 02:08:47 -0500: Hi, [snip] >IMO, as long as work, money, and energy consumption, are culturally linked >the "too cheap to meter" dream will never be realised. >Even if energy becomes 100 times less expensive, we, as individuals, >will find ourselves consuming 100 times more energy. [snip] That's why it's important that we learn to appreciate the value of efficiency before energy becomes too cheap to meter. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 11 23:51:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C6pN8k020016; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:51:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C6pMJL019998; Thu, 11 May 2006 23:51:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:51:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060512065118951.E86075800082@mwinf3112.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060512065119.00b233b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:51:19 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:08 am 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >IMO, as long as work, money, and energy consumption, are culturally linked >the "too cheap to meter" dream will never be realised. >Even if energy becomes 100 times less expensive, we, as individuals, >will find ourselves consuming 100 times more energy. > >Harry Not so Harry. There are limits to the amount one can consume, whether it be food, drink or entertainment. Water is "too cheap to meter", in Britain at any rate. I have a free bus pass for the whole of Greater London but the maximum I could use it would be 24 hours a day. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 01:15:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C8FJPI013244; Fri, 12 May 2006 01:15:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C8FIwU013233; Fri, 12 May 2006 01:15:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 01:15:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=r2V2Fxrwd3BRWpyB7WOW0Qb0uXxYheR0TeJA7F8af6+kBonaqzf4QsE0G7BGGeN6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200655128151276@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stacked Washer Electrolyzer Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 02:15:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aaab489309b476a906be706e665bd689350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The 1.5 inch OD, 1/4 inch I.D. Fender Washers have 10 square cm of surface area each side when placed over a 1/4 inch rod with 1/2 inch diameter spacers. About 100 Kohm resistance and about 65 Picofarad capacitance between 1.0 cm-spaced washers with 1.0 Megohm-cm water. Five Fenders spaced on a stick, a 12 volt AC-DC adaptor, a clear plastic pop bottle, and Wallah Water. Ergo ~ 3 volt per cell Brown's Gas etc? http://www.barnhillbolt.com/ All Thread Nylon & Fiberglass Rod & Nuts: http://www.barnhillbolt.com/index.php?root=menu&level=&menu=101&catid=-1&custid=748308167 Fender Washers: http://www.barnhillbolt.com/specs/WasherFlatFender.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The 1.5 inch OD, 1/4 inch I.D. Fender Washers have 10 square cm
of surface area each side when placed over a 1/4 inch rod with
1/2 inch diameter spacers.
 
About 100 Kohm resistance and about 65 Picofarad capacitance
between 1.0 cm-spaced washers with 1.0 Megohm-cm
water.
 
Five Fenders spaced on a stick, a 12 volt AC-DC adaptor, a
clear plastic pop bottle, and Wallah Water.
Ergo ~ 3 volt per cell Brown's Gas etc?
 
 
All Thread Nylon & Fiberglass Rod & Nuts:
 
 
Fender Washers:
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 01:57:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4C8vDMQ027132; Fri, 12 May 2006 01:57:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4C8vBol027116; Fri, 12 May 2006 01:57:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 01:57:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Fuj4x3APsWH+bYCLubWNmImcf9pNSLL/wa0RQbm9MuvMVP+hw5QwPOZjGnzl2n+Q; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200655128572606@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Stacked Washer Electrolyzer Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 02:57:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94080553365906a38385ec8f2997a48d717350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.142 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW, The Saito F-56 engine arrived yesterday. A real jewel of quality. With 2 inch OD Fenders the area doubles to 20 square cm per side. Since you're not trying to electroplate H2O, why not use AC? http://www.horizonhobby.com/Search/Default.aspx?BrandId=SAI ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To Sent: 5/12/2006 2:16:04 AM Subject: Re: Stacked Washer Electrolyzer The 1.5 inch OD, 1/4 inch I.D. Fender Washers have 10 square cm of surface area each side when placed over a 1/4 inch rod with 1/2 inch diameter spacers. About 100 Kohm resistance and about 65 Picofarad capacitance between 1.0 cm-spaced washers with 1.0 Megohm-cm water. Five Fenders spaced on a stick, a 12 volt AC-DC adaptor, a clear plastic pop bottle, and Wallah Water. Ergo ~ 3 volt per cell Brown's Gas etc? http://www.barnhillbolt.com/ All Thread Nylon & Fiberglass Rod & Nuts: http://www.barnhillbolt.com/index.php?root=menu&level=&menu=101&catid=-1&custid=748308167 Fender Washers: http://www.barnhillbolt.com/specs/WasherFlatFender.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW, The Saito F-56 engine arrived yesterday.
 
A real jewel of quality. With 2 inch OD Fenders the
area doubles to 20 square cm per side.
 
Since you're not trying to electroplate H2O, why not use AC?
 
----- Original Message -----
To
Sent: 5/12/2006 2:16:04 AM
Subject: Re: Stacked Washer Electrolyzer

The 1.5 inch OD, 1/4 inch I.D. Fender Washers have 10 square cm
of surface area each side when placed over a 1/4 inch rod with
1/2 inch diameter spacers.
 
About 100 Kohm resistance and about 65 Picofarad capacitance
between 1.0 cm-spaced washers with 1.0 Megohm-cm
water.
 
Five Fenders spaced on a stick, a 12 volt AC-DC adaptor, a
clear plastic pop bottle, and Wallah Water.
Ergo ~ 3 volt per cell Brown's Gas etc?
 
 
All Thread Nylon & Fiberglass Rod & Nuts:
 
 
Fender Washers:
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 08:25:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CFPfV0009833; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:25:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CFPbIC009780; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:25:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:25:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,122,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1626674238:sNHT18474392" Message-ID: <1600066196.1147447533205.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 8:25:33 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Xss Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is for anyone who's ever struggled through a physics lab: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~kovar/hall.html I love the graphic. Especially the line drawn through the data points. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 08:39:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CFdUas015541; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:39:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CFdT3C015516; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:39:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:39:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4464AC28.4040005@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:39:20 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BD3B6AD@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060511110218.040c78a0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060511110218.040c78a0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_4gelC.A.YyD.xwKZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > >> Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the EPA >> says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. >> >> http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 > > But they are the best in mileage! According to the Consumer Reports list > on this page! I think it's also worth noting that CU admits that they made a *mistake* in their comparison of hybrids with other cars. The added the extra depreciation _and_ the extra initial purchase cost to the cost of owning a hybrid, and so concluded that overall the hybrid was more expensive. In a response to a letter in a recent issue they stated that by erroneously double-counting the higher price they skewed it toward conventional vehicles; without the double-counting, the hybrids came out cheaper. I don't have the details but I might be able to find the issue if anyone cares. (And if I actually saw this in someone else's letter to Vortex, rather than in CU itself, then I will apologize and will feel intense embarrassment as penance.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 08:51:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CFox4l020850; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:51:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CFotm2020810; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:50:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:50:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c675db$d8e19d70$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:50:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ... subtitled, "where's the 'blip'? " A "blip" being defined as a presumed insignificant phenomenon, especially a brief departure from the normal trend or curve - especially in statistical analysis and charting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Negative muons orbit at the Bohr radius (BR) * electron mass / > muon mass. Hence hydrinohydride should try to do the same, Not necessarily, Robin. There is some evidence that leptons experience inertia (and gravity) differently than fermions. Mills even buys into that one. The point being that this is not an apples-to-apples comparison as the Bohr radius applies specifically to leptons. > Either way, it is larger than the distance at which it should > orbit. This leaves several possible scenarios:- > 1) It sits snug against the nucleus at it's own radius. This can probably be ruled out because of the strong force... > 2) It shares it's shrunken electrons with the other nucleus in a > covalent bond at very small radius (don't know how big), but it > would have to be smaller than it's own radius or there wouldn't > be > any energy benefit in forming the bond. This is more likely, especially with the "very small radius" being internal to normal "smear" of the argon - that is, if you accept a different kind of covalent bond - perhaps even one where the "new" k-shell itself comes from one electron and one hydrino hydride instead of the normal 2 electrons (or else the displacement of the other k-shell electron results in a see-saw reciprocating fashion, and this is what is favored in that particular atom. And the situation for the hydrino hydride involved in this particular situation may be such that it is NOT "maximal shrinkage" as you seem to be reverting to. Perhaps the shrinkage is either n=1/16 or 1/17 ... in the range of the maximum enthalpy. IOW maximum enthalpy instead of maximum shrinkage. Perhaps these are also the only ones which can easily escape - in the solar corona - that is: the hydrinos which are favored to be expelled in a solar-genesis situation, over geologic time. Lets see - at 1/16 the radius of the hydrino is a factor of 32,000 times reduced over the Bohr radius. Of course there are many other problems with this whole scenario - to wit: Mills has apparently collected gram-sized supplies of tightly bound K-Hy- (images on his web site) and we can assume from that situation that he has proven in so doing that the excess charge is nullified by the strong covalence (ionic --> covalent bonding), meaning that 20 total electrons remain in the compound; but can that be "confused" (in "inertness") with the net 18 electrons of argon? i.e. instead of 20 of a normal hydride. The scenario we are getting at would be easier to pull-off starting with chlorine. For this to work out chemically with potassium, the 20 electrons must "look like" the 18 of Argon, no? That might be the expected outcome of an extremely tight bonding scenario... ...plus it provides another route to falsifiability - in that in a normal tank of Argon, where there are three stable isotopes: 36, 38, and 40 and with 40Ar accounting for 99.6% of the total - THEN - of that 99.6, the "special-K" component should have an extra mass of 2 electrons, compared with the "real" argon, no? Even with a ppm population of this heavier "argon" of special-K, there should be a "blip" on the mass-spec chart. We must also assume that the Hy- shrinkage in those samples Mills has collected is near the minimum (i.e they are much larger in radius - one or two steps of shrinkage) than the tiny size needed to "gasify" the atom into "special-K" which would be the Argon substitute. Bizarro! The real problem in the whole scenario seems to be to get a molecule to bond so tightly that it "looks like" a monatomic noble gas, correct? It is no wonder that NO mainstream scientist would touch this line of reasoning "with a ten-foot pole" ... until, that is, someone produces a mass-spec chart from a tank of argon showing that little "blip" of extra mass (about an MeV+ in total) ... and then of course, they [mainstream nay-sayers] will be back-peddling and claiming to associates: "told you so"... If you look at the actual geometry of the so-called "orbitals" of potassium and argon, then it might be possible to get a clue as to why K could possibly have this strong affinity for a hydrino hydride, and especially one of the optimum size (whether it be 16 or 24 or whatever steps). This whole quantum orbital image situation might even be amenable to modeling with some of the newer software packages which are out there. There is probably something about the symmetry of potassium that strongly favors the capture of this particular species based on the constraints of size and charge - and correspondingly there is probably something in the solar corona environment that favors the creation of this same species. If ... that is [the required caveat] there is any validity to the speculation at all. All of this being premised, of course, on some proof that this oceanic turnover of primordial Hy- together with potassium is really happening on a continuous basis. The fact that such a revolving system would elegantly explain the "potassium ocean deficit" is not enough (by a long shot) in itself, nor is "efficient radiation," which is a proven phenomenon of Argon, nor is the results from the Z-machine. However, that little "blip" mentioned above - the putative one on the mass-spec charts, previously ignored or dismissed as a "relic" of the instrumentation - yes ! ... that would be enough. But is it there? > BTW for the Auger scenario to play out, it would seem to me that > one would have to put as much energy into the compound atom to > dislodge the hydrino hydride as was initially released when it > entered. Here again, this is a logical assumption based on what happens with leptons. The assumption might NOT be valid for species whose charge to mass ratio is massively different. Not to mention, the Hy- may not become totally dislodged itself - but due to its much lower mass (compared to the K nucleus). If it is severely jostled about, under circumstance which go beyond normal acceleration into "jerk" then we could have the Auger cascade with ZPE stepping-in later to restore some normalcy to the situation. Now... where's the "blip"? Jones [side note] For those who are not older Americans, this phrase would be much more meaningful, if you had this mental image of an older lady, a grandmother perhaps (Clara Peeler), standing in line at a Wendy's-competitors hamburger joint, yelling "where's the beef?" BION, that soon-to-be-nauseating expert-on-everything: Wiki - does have an entry for now for "where's the beef?" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 08:56:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CFuhwt024581; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:56:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CFufGi024553; Fri, 12 May 2006 08:56:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:56:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4464B031.7010408@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:56:33 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Xss References: <1600066196.1147447533205.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> In-Reply-To: <1600066196.1147447533205.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-O_o3D.A.g_F.4ALZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: > This is for anyone who's ever struggled through a physics lab: > > http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~kovar/hall.html > > I love the graphic. Especially the line drawn through the data points. First-rate, front to back! I loved this quote: > This is how they treat undergrads around here: they give you broken > tools and then don't understand why you don't get any results. It was explained to me, back when I was in college, that the biggest barrier to a physics degree was the "junior physics lab", which one took in one's junior year. In that lab, one did things like demonstrate the Hall effect (non-trivial!), using nothing but outdated, obsolete, and/or broken equipment. The reason wasn't any lack of money (not at _that_ school). The reason, I was told, was that there were Too Many Physics Majors and Not Enough Physics Jobs. In consequence, the undergraduate physics program was made intentionally distasteful. And if, by some miracle, you got through the first two years without getting the message, you ran smack into the horrible h*** of the Junior Physics Lab, and if you got through _THAT_, then by golly you were *dedicated* and were eligible to be one of the chosen few. Me, personally, I wasn't, and I didn't... I gave it up as a bad deal halfway through the undergrad quantum course, which was awful. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:12:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CGCVCv032115; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:12:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CGCTC4032094; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:12:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:12:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <660777206.1147450346431.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 9:12:26 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Cc: orionworks@charter.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Jones Beene sez: ... > [side note] For those who are not older Americans, > this phrase would be much more meaningful, if you had > this mental image of an older lady, a grandmother > perhaps (Clara Peeler), standing in line at a > Wendy's-competitors hamburger joint, yelling "where's the > beef?" > > BION, that soon-to-be-nauseating expert-on-everything: Wiki - does > have an entry for now for "where's the beef?" I couldn't resist. With apologies to Mr. Beene. See: http://www.orionworks.com/artgal/svj/wheres_beef_m.htm Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:30:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CGUbpi007445; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CGUar7007427; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:30:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:30:32 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC646@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. Thread-Index: AcZ12lhE0BbxFL8JRSKBQTFHWRJHHAAA6Cwg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 May 2006 16:30:33.0132 (UTC) FILETIME=[63EEBEC0:01C675E1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4CGUXgL007405 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At present, even defenders of hybrids seem to admit that over all cost savings from higher gas mileage - and apart from subsidies - mean you have to run them for 15 years or rack up an extreme amount of odometer mileage. Maintenance costs on such a new technology are likely to high , as well. - although constant speed gas engine might do very well as to lifetime between rebuilds. For God's sake, somebody throw a diesel in here! ( given the extreme longevity of some truck engines) The premium over the price of a regular car is a problem. I sincerely hope that it follows the path of VCRs - which dropped from $2000+ ( Cartivision from Sears) down to the present $80-90 at Walmart. If it doesn't drop, we've got a problem. When I see more "energy" used in the manufacture of hybrids, I mean all the costs of manufacture from raw materials upward , into finished parts - and I don't trust any academic estimates in this - only free markets can tell us the answer. ( Old Soviet joke: Gorbachev said that when Communism takes over the world, they will have to leave New Zealand alone, to get some idea of what prices should be!) What do we "save" in hybrid manufacture? No mechanical powertrain. What extra do we pay for? More batteries, more complex controls ( Asian factories can bring the cost down) , a big electric motor ( possibly combined with some braking generation). You still need an engine big enough to power the car up long hills, after the batteries give out. ( if this is not provided, I expect to see stalled hybrids on the shoulders of highways around Scranton, Pennsylvania - any one remember "30,000 lbs. Of Bananas" by Harry Chapin?) If anyone can make this work ( $ -wise), I think Toyota can. Good Lord, is copper $4 a pound today? Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > >> Consumer Reports claims hybrid gas mileage is 19 mpg lower than the >> EPA says and are among the worst in mileage exaggeration. >> >> http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 > > But they are the best in mileage! According to the Consumer Reports > list on this page! I think it's also worth noting that CU admits that they made a *mistake* in their comparison of hybrids with other cars. The added the extra depreciation _and_ the extra initial purchase cost to the cost of owning a hybrid, and so concluded that overall the hybrid was more expensive. In a response to a letter in a recent issue they stated that by erroneously double-counting the higher price they skewed it toward conventional vehicles; without the double-counting, the hybrids came out cheaper. I don't have the details but I might be able to find the issue if anyone cares. (And if I actually saw this in someone else's letter to Vortex, rather than in CU itself, then I will apologize and will feel intense embarrassment as penance.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:33:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CGXMns009256; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:33:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CGXKIf009233; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:33:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:33:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Xss Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:43:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4464B031.7010408@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4CGXC0o009167 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, that was very funny, thanks. It sounded like Alex Doonsebury selected this college, and after a steady diet of ideal current sources and gedanken wankin' has just been tasked with making a real measurement. Ouch. I remember taking a biology course as an undergrad; we had to dissect something and all I could discern was a blob of undifferentiated muck. My lab partner had a nice collection of little organs on his tray. I then proceeded to take all the old creature parts laying about the lab and build up my own new creature, at which point I realized I was really better suited to some kind of engineering than the life sciences. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electron Band Structure In Germanium, My Xss OrionWorks wrote: > This is for anyone who's ever struggled through a physics lab: > > http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~kovar/hall.html > > I love the graphic. Especially the line drawn through the data points. First-rate, front to back! I loved this quote: > This is how they treat undergrads around here: they give you broken > tools and then don't understand why you don't get any results. It was explained to me, back when I was in college, that the biggest barrier to a physics degree was the "junior physics lab", which one took in one's junior year. In that lab, one did things like demonstrate the Hall effect (non-trivial!), using nothing but outdated, obsolete, and/or broken equipment. The reason wasn't any lack of money (not at _that_ school). The reason, I was told, was that there were Too Many Physics Majors and Not Enough Physics Jobs. In consequence, the undergraduate physics program was made intentionally distasteful. And if, by some miracle, you got through the first two years without getting the message, you ran smack into the horrible h*** of the Junior Physics Lab, and if you got through _THAT_, then by golly you were *dedicated* and were eligible to be one of the chosen few. Me, personally, I wasn't, and I didn't... I gave it up as a bad deal halfway through the undergrad quantum course, which was awful. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.Zazzle.com/orionworks > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 09:57:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CGun2P019294; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:56:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CGulRs019276; Fri, 12 May 2006 09:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:56:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:56:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20060512065119.00b233b0@pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6J5zmD.A.ItE.P5LZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: > At 02:08 am 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> IMO, as long as work, money, and energy consumption, are culturally linked >> the "too cheap to meter" dream will never be realised. >> Even if energy becomes 100 times less expensive, we, as individuals, >> will find ourselves consuming 100 times more energy. >> >> Harry > > Not so Harry. There are limits to the amount one can consume, whether > it be food, drink or entertainment. Water is "too cheap to meter", in > Britain at any rate. I have a free bus pass for the whole of Greater > London but the maximum I could use it would be 24 hours a day. > > Frank > Certainly consumption of food and drink is limited, but you are overlooking advances in technology, which allow one to travel faster and faster, move more and more rock, build higher and higher, etc... "We wanted our wedding to be very special. So we had it on Mars, in a full size replica of the Taj Mahal which we built ourselves." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 10:24:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CHOklC031066; Fri, 12 May 2006 10:24:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CHOjQg031053; Fri, 12 May 2006 10:24:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:24:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:24:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> At 02:08 am 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> IMO, as long as work, money, and energy consumption, are culturally linked >>> the "too cheap to meter" dream will never be realised. >>> Even if energy becomes 100 times less expensive, we, as individuals, >>> will find ourselves consuming 100 times more energy. >>> >>> Harry >> >> Not so Harry. There are limits to the amount one can consume, whether >> it be food, drink or entertainment. Water is "too cheap to meter", in >> Britain at any rate. I have a free bus pass for the whole of Greater >> London but the maximum I could use it would be 24 hours a day. >> >> Frank >> > > > Certainly consumption of food and drink is limited, but you are overlooking > advances in technology, which allow one to travel faster and faster, move > more and more rock, build higher and higher, etc... > > "We wanted our wedding to be very special. So we had it on Mars, in a full > size replica of the Taj Mahal which we built ourselves." > > Harry > For related imagery see: http://www.canadianarchitect.com/asf/enclosure_detailing/detailing_basics/de tailing_basics.htm Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 10:51:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CHpW4x010094; Fri, 12 May 2006 10:51:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CHpR0I010062; Fri, 12 May 2006 10:51:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:51:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:51:24 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84403D23D0751-634-2CFC@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC646@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC646@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Hybrids Not The Answer - Yet. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris If anyone can make this work ( $ -wise), I think Toyota can. <><><><><><> Toyota had better watch their back: http://vvcars.com/ Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:13:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CIDHYB019457; Fri, 12 May 2006 11:13:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CIDD7H019417; Fri, 12 May 2006 11:13:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:13:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:13:03 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C84406D89114D7-634-2DB4@mblkn-m16.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: the political economy of energy distribution Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.134 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <79sRWC.A.SvE.4ANZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry VeederFor related imagery see: http://www.canadianarchitect.com/asf/enclosure_detailing/detailing_basics /de tailing_basics.htm <><><><><><><> http://tinyurl.com/nt96n One image caption: "Pipe fitting robots at work ? notice the pleasant absence of plumber?s butt." :-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 11:56:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CIu57B004965; Fri, 12 May 2006 11:56:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CIu3nh004938; Fri, 12 May 2006 11:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:55:59 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C8440CD7D2F616-2164-2621@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Betteries Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <7Tkx2D.A.FNB.CpNZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Betteries everywhere! http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html "Electric car of General Motors, EV 1 uses 736kg batteries giving max. range 145 km without recharge. A battery of 60 kg made with Europositron technology allows EV 1 max. range 870 km without recharge." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:13:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CKCufU004097; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:12:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CKCtCa004084; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:12:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:12:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011801c67600$7f7d8d50$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Betteries Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:13:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0115_01C675DE.F83C51D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net X-Spam-Status: No Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C675DE.F83C51D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except = a European a stock scam? Right on their front page they are asking = people to buy shares. I would be very skeptical of fantastic claims = like these, especially when they are clearly promoting stock sales. = Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be great. But are = these people playing straight? If it sounds too good to be true, then = .......... Stock scams usually rotate into hot sectors. Back in the 1990s most = scams were internet companies. After 9/11 a lot of scams were homeland = security related. Now with energy making headlines, get ready for an = old stock market scam, wildly exaggerated or blatantly fraudulent energy = claims. Energy is one of the favorites of scamsters, because the = implications for a new energy device that takes the world by storm are = enormous. ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C675DE.F83C51D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds interesting.  But is there = any proof=20 that this is anything except a European a stock scam?  Right on = their front=20 page they are asking people to buy shares.  I would be very = skeptical of=20 fantastic claims like these, especially when they are clearly promoting = stock=20 sales.  Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be=20 great.  But are these people playing straight?  If it sounds = too good=20 to be true, then ..........
 
Stock scams usually rotate into hot = sectors. =20 Back in the 1990s most scams were internet companies.  After 9/11 a = lot of=20 scams were homeland security related.  Now with energy making = headlines,=20 get ready for an old stock market scam, wildly exaggerated or blatantly=20 fraudulent energy claims.  Energy is one of the favorites of = scamsters,=20 because the implications for a new energy device that takes the world by = storm=20 are enormous.
------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C675DE.F83C51D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:15:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CKEon7005205; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:14:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CKEmvn005174; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:14:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:14:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:14:42 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C84417D6EEED8B-CFC-5016@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Lunar FE? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.thothweb.com/article-3001--0-0.html ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 13:46:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CKjwgs017526; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:45:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CKjuQA017511; Fri, 12 May 2006 13:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:45:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C67605.1004A756" Subject: RE: Betteries Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:45:53 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC816@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Betteries Thread-Index: AcZ2AKUY7n7bA5nkT6qP4J9+CsOJXgAA86pw From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 May 2006 20:45:54.0657 (UTC) FILETIME=[1045ED10:01C67605] Resent-Message-ID: <3tp0cB.A.jRE.EQPZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C67605.1004A756 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? Right on their front page they are asking people to buy shares. I would be very skeptical of fantastic claims like these, especially when they are clearly promoting stock sales. Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be great. But are these people playing straight? If it sounds too good to be true, then .........=20 =20 I think the fine print on this battery tells you that it may be only 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it. Maybe the waste heat could go to a greenhouse or something.=20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C67605.1004A756 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


 
Sounds interesting.  But is = there any=20 proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam?  Right = on their=20 front page they are asking people to buy shares.  I would be very = skeptical=20 of fantastic claims like these, especially when they are clearly = promoting stock=20 sales.  Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be=20 great.  But are these people playing straight?  If it sounds = too good=20 to be true, then ......... 
 
I think the fine print on this battery tells you = that it may=20 be only 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it.  Maybe the = waste=20 heat could go to a greenhouse
or something. 
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C67605.1004A756-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 14:04:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CL4JDH025740; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:04:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CL4HLg025720; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:04:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:04:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <013901c67607$aef6db20$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC816@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:04:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0136_01C675E6.27AC02B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net X-Spam-Status: No Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C675E6.27AC02B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 20% efficient is fine if it gets 500 miles per charge. The problem with = this battery claim is that it is so much better than current technology, = about 2 to 4 times better, that you have to be suspicious of such a = fantastic claim. I was also suspicious of the fact that they are openly = selling stock on their website (red flag). I'll have to read up on this = new battery claim. I reserve judgement. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Betteries =20 Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything = except a European a stock scam? Right on their front page they are = asking people to buy shares. I would be very skeptical of fantastic = claims like these, especially when they are clearly promoting stock = sales. Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be great. = But are these people playing straight? If it sounds too good to be = true, then .........=20 I think the fine print on this battery tells you that it may be only = 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it. Maybe the waste heat could = go to a greenhouse or something.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C675E6.27AC02B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
20% efficient is fine if it gets 500 = miles per=20 charge.  The problem with this battery claim is that it is so much = better=20 than current technology, about 2 to 4 times better, that you have to be=20 suspicious of such a fantastic claim.  I was also suspicious of the = fact=20 that they are openly selling stock on their website (red flag).  = I'll have=20 to read up on this new battery claim.  I reserve = judgement.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:45 = PM
Subject: RE: Betteries



 
Sounds interesting.  But = is there any=20 proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam?  = Right on=20 their front page they are asking people to buy shares.  I would = be very=20 skeptical of fantastic claims like these, especially when they are = clearly=20 promoting stock sales.  Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum = battery=20 would be great.  But are these people playing straight?  If = it=20 sounds too good to be true, then ......... 
 
I think the fine print on this battery tells you = that it=20 may be only 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it.  = Maybe the=20 waste heat could go to = a greenhouse
or something. 
 
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C675E6.27AC02B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 14:36:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CLZqQx007578; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:35:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CLZovN007558; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:35:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:35:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=KwO1p6zOG1ZhVIPm+T/KWXZ2u1TyPy6Ci8QISLQXeXluCoNOYD809PQBRiAce4hU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065512213636480@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 12, 2006 Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:36:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8fa4ab8c53a7653078657d0d382bb904f666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.108.76 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forward by aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 5/12/2006 1:29:22 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 12, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 May 06 Washington, DC 1. PRAY FOR CONGRESS: IN EVERY WAR, BOTH SIDES PRAY FOR VICTORY. Yesterday, the House passed a $513B defense authorization bill. The bill included language allowing military chaplains to pray "according to the dictates of the chaplain's own conscience." Current rules call for nonsectarian prayers, or a moment of silence, at mandatory public gatherings. Focus on the Family, The Christian Coalition, and other evangelical Christian groups had urged the President to issue an executive order guaranteeing the right of chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus. When Bush failed to act, Republicans on Armed Services added the provision to the defense authorization bill. An amendment offered in committee by Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY), calling on chaplains to show "sensitivity, respect and tolerance for all faiths," was defeated on a party-line vote. Rules did not allow floor debate. 2. PREYING ON THE VOTERS: FLAW FOUND IN TOUCH-SCREEN MACHINES. The most severe security flaw ever found in a voting system has been discovered by a Finnish expert working for a non-profit group. A professor of computer science at Johns Hopkins told the NY Times that he, "almost had a heart attack," when he learned of the problem. This was not some innocent design error that wasn't caught. Diebold, the company that makes the machines, built in a secret "back door" to "update the software." It could be opened in minutes if someone knows the code. Don't worry, the code is a proprietary secret of Diebold. Of course, there was that 2003 fund-raising letter to Ohio Republicans from the Diebold CEO that said, "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its votes to the President" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN03/wn121203.html . 3. SPACE: THE ONLY THING IN NASA THAT STILL GOES UP IS THE COST. Michael Griffin told his science advisory committee this week that he could not keep the commitment he made a year ago not to shift money from science to human space flight. I wasn't on the committee, but I tried to imagine how it might have gone if I had been. MG: The problem is the ISS. RP: What problem? MG: We have to finish it by 2010. RP: Why is that a problem? MG: Because the shuttle doesn't work. RP: If we fix the shuttle and finish the ISS, what do we do next? MG: We drop the ISS in the ocean. RP: Why don't we do that now? MG: Because we must honor our commitment to our ISS partners first. RP: But what about your commitment to space science? MG: That will have to wait until we get back from Mars. RP: We're going to Mars? MG: When we get back from the moon. RP: We're going to the moon? MG: Just as soon as we build a new spacecraft. RP: What's holding that up? MG: The problem is the ISS. 4. BIGFOOT RENDEZVOUS: THERE IS NOT A LOT TO DO IN POCATELLO. But we are told that "Bigfoot aficionados" from across the country will be there June 16-18. The press release came from the University Relations Office at Utah State University. Can we get extra credit for this? THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 15:20:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CMJw1V023449; Fri, 12 May 2006 15:19:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CMJvi9023435; Fri, 12 May 2006 15:19:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:19:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EC9yGvnBWVOd04F5fG/QL16XlbCIOrxOoXGyVK7zP1Ag8vUnS5bgrMyh4BngE2xz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006551222195417@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:19:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a06eb98168505d61878e38a1009e5215350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.252 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and the Helmholtz Double-Layer Reduction-Oxidation Effect of High Purity Water on a sufficient large anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path. 2 H2O <---> OH - + H3O+ Cathode H3O + + e- -----> H2O + H (gas) Anode OH - - e- ------> OH (gas) ICE Combustion H + OH -----> H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole = 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and  the Helmholtz Double-Layer
Reduction-Oxidation Effect  of  High Purity Water on a sufficient large
anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path.
 
2 H2O <---> OH -   +   H3O+
 
Cathode H3O +  + e-   ----->  H2O +  H   (gas)
 
Anode OH -  -  e-   ------>    OH  (gas)
 
ICE Combustion H + OH ----->   H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole
 
= 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 15:41:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4CMfimK031940; Fri, 12 May 2006 15:41:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4CMfcbg031896; Fri, 12 May 2006 15:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:41:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC816@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC816@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 12 May 2006 22:41:34 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4CMfZjD031866 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 15:45:53 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I think the fine print on this battery tells you that it may be only >20+% efficient, unless they've improved it. Maybe the waste heat could >go to a greenhouse >or something. [snip] Where did you find the "fine print"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 17:12:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D0C3HF032113; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:12:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D0Bqbu032037; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:11:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:11:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:11:49 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84438F6D3979F-1D68-38EA@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-220065512213636480@ix.netcom.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-220065512213636480@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 12, 2006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: aki@ix.netcom.com 3. SPACE: THE ONLY THING IN NASA THAT STILL GOES UP IS THE COST. Michael Griffin told his science advisory committee this week that he could not keep the commitment he made a year ago not to shift money from science to human space flight. I wasn't on the committee, but I tried to imagine how it might have gone if I had been. MG: The problem is the ISS. RP: What problem? MG: We have to finish it by 2010. RP: Why is that a problem? MG: Because the shuttle doesn't work. RP: If we fix the shuttle and finish the ISS, what do we do next? MG: We drop the ISS in the ocean. RP: Why don't we do that now? MG: Because we must honor our commitment to our ISS partners first. RP: But what about your commitment to space science? MG: That will have to wait until we get back from Mars. RP: We're going to Mars? MG: When we get back from the moon. RP: We're going to the moon? MG: Just as soon as we build a new spacecraft. RP: What's holding that up? MG: The problem is the ISS. <><><><><><> It really pi$$es me off when Parks makes sense. ;-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 17:36:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D0Zwwi007343; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:35:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D0ZuWm007325; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:35:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:35:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:35:52 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8443C52C2F41F-1D68-3967@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <011801c67600$7f7d8d50$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <011801c67600$7f7d8d50$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Betteries Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4D0ZsJU007288 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello Sounds interesting.  But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? <><><><><><><> http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 18:05:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D15jeX015921; Fri, 12 May 2006 18:05:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D15hpd015907; Fri, 12 May 2006 18:05:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:05:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Yvu+hdNNqplQoYJi1pX3ZEf0Oj2+ivnWVIrkeYesJK873X/UB9AeiLWf1haevsrk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656131538602@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:05:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408e8101c738bb09361bf095070074d1e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.222 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it, will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the re-circulated H2O. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and the Helmholtz Double-Layer Reduction-Oxidation Effect of High Purity Water on a sufficient large anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path. 2 H2O <---> OH - + H3O+ Cathode H3O + + e- -----> H2O + H (gas) Anode OH - - e- ------> OH (gas) ICE Combustion H + OH -----> H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole = 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) 
operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it,
will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface
surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis
of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the
re-circulated H2O.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM
Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie

No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and  the Helmholtz Double-Layer
Reduction-Oxidation Effect  of  High Purity Water on a sufficient large
anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path.
 
2 H2O <---> OH -   +   H3O+
 
Cathode H3O +  + e-   ----->  H2O +  H   (gas)
 
Anode OH -  -  e-   ------>    OH  (gas)
 
ICE Combustion H + OH ----->   H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole
 
= 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 19:52:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D2pptN014557; Fri, 12 May 2006 19:51:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D2pnkT014537; Fri, 12 May 2006 19:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:51:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c67633$f7e3a9e0$bf037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <011801c67600$7f7d8d50$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <8C8443C52C2F41F-1D68-3967@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:21:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. .If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Betteries > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Coviello > > Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a > European a stock scam? > > <><><><><><><> > > http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 21:23:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D4NEWW014354; Fri, 12 May 2006 21:23:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D4NDmU014341; Fri, 12 May 2006 21:23:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:23:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=esBNs60+0xvhBhpbQE6mWY3H9QaS8p2iBMKlQACXuhy30rYhNjthmsnYR3yHqG4S; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065613423538@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:23:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94065a0293555c64e5c901db96d67ea2654350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.33 Resent-Message-ID: <39wgLB.A._fD.w8VZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII FWIW, department. The 4.6 eV work function of Nickel is close to the 4.52 eV work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2 is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten. OTOH, with a Helmholtz Double Layer Zeta Potential of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable to a Boltzman temperature of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV. IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential (about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts). ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/12/2006 7:06:58 PM Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it, will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the re-circulated H2O. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and the Helmholtz Double-Layer Reduction-Oxidation Effect of High Purity Water on a sufficient large anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path. 2 H2O <---> OH - + H3O+ Cathode H3O + + e- -----> H2O + H (gas) Anode OH - - e- ------> OH (gas) ICE Combustion H + OH -----> H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole = 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
FWIW, department.
The  4.6 eV work function of Nickel  is close to the 4.52 eV
work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2
is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten.
OTOH, with a Helmholtz  Double Layer Zeta Potential
of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable
to a Boltzman temperature  of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV.
IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold
electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is
possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron
to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if
the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential
(about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts).
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/12/2006 7:06:58 PM
Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie

Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) 
operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it,
will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface
surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis
of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the
re-circulated H2O.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM
Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie

No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and  the Helmholtz Double-Layer
Reduction-Oxidation Effect  of  High Purity Water on a sufficient large
anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path.
 
2 H2O <---> OH -   +   H3O+
 
Cathode H3O +  + e-   ----->  H2O +  H   (gas)
 
Anode OH -  -  e-   ------>    OH  (gas)
 
ICE Combustion H + OH ----->   H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole
 
= 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 23:06:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D66Jwe015216; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:06:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D66HLT015201; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:06:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:06:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060513060614921.E0E82B800082@mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060513060614.009b22e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:06:14 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Betteries Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4D66F4H015178 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Coviello > >Sounds interesting.  But is there any proof that this is anything >except a European a stock scam? > ><><><><><><><> > >http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 Mmm....Interesting. Proof enough for me. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 23:15:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D6FKA3018455; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:15:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D6FHJh018429; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:15:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:15:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060513061513589.8FD91C400083@mwinf3216.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060513061513.00bbf31c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:15:13 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Betteries Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if >a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to >learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will >hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally >more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. >.If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before >the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. > >I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and >Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. >Richard I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 12 23:21:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4D6KttF020825; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:20:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4D6KrjK020809; Fri, 12 May 2006 23:20:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:20:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060513062052272.427101C00083@mwinf3202.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060513062052.00bc2754@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:20:52 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Betteries Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4D6KpLW020792 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:06 am 13/05/2006 +0100, you wrote: >At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Coviello >> >>Sounds interesting.  But is there any proof that this is anything >>except a European a stock scam? >> >><><><><><><><> >> >>http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 > > >Mmm....Interesting. >Proof enough for me. 8-) > >Frank Grimer But having read Richard's post and remembering my own experience with GRC I think that John is right to be suspicious. What do they say - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. ;-) Time will tell. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 04:11:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DBBLWB017259; Sat, 13 May 2006 04:11:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DBBJMB017244; Sat, 13 May 2006 04:11:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 04:11:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dp7aUVyoGnvR7/96oSzOOD7oCSivhAUAp/+vdd+jOxUk4VHRlsFfMycHKNDfSTSP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006561311112942@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 05:11:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cfa629d48e4d49bf18301a444c0d77c7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.229 Resent-Message-ID: <53BauB.A.XNE.W7bZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted Earlier: > > The 4.6 eV work function of Nickel is close to the 4.52 eV > work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2 > is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten. > OTOH, with a Helmholtz Double Layer Zeta Potential > of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable > to a Boltzman temperature of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV. > IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold > electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is > possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron > to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if > the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential > (about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts). > According to the Dushman equation J = Ao*T^2*e^- bo/T For Nickel Ao = 3.0E5 amp/meter^2/deg^2 , bo = 58000 = 11,600 * Ew (work function eV) With a 0.125 volt Zeta Potential T = 0.125*11600 = 1450 deg K Hence the current density J = 3.0E5* 1450^2 * e^ - 58000/1450 = 2.68E-3 amperes per square meter. OTOH. increasing the Zeta Potential to 0.150 volts increases current density J to 3.0 amperes per square meter, at a Zeta Potential of 0.2 volts J increases to 22,000 amperes per square meter. More than you need in the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Interface area in the JOE CELL. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted Earlier:
>
> The  4.6 eV work function of Nickel  is close to the 4.52 eV
> work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2
> is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten.
> OTOH, with a Helmholtz  Double Layer Zeta Potential
> of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable
> to a Boltzman temperature  of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV.
> IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold
> electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is
> possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron
> to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if
> the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential
> (about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts).
>
 
According to the Dushman equation J = Ao*T^2*e^- bo/T
 
For Nickel Ao = 3.0E5 amp/meter^2/deg^2 ,
 
bo = 58000 = 11,600 * Ew (work function eV)
 
With a 0.125 volt Zeta Potential T = 0.125*11600 = 1450 deg K
 
Hence the current density J = 3.0E5* 1450^2 *  e^ - 58000/1450
 
= 2.68E-3 amperes per square meter.
 
OTOH. increasing the Zeta Potential to 0.150 volts increases
current density J to 3.0  amperes per square meter,
at a Zeta Potential of 0.2 volts J increases to 22,000 amperes
per square meter. 
 
More than you need in the approximately 0.7 square
meter Metal-Water Interface area in the JOE CELL.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 05:29:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DCT2r5011008; Sat, 13 May 2006 05:29:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DCSxX1010965; Sat, 13 May 2006 05:28:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 05:28:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017f01c67688$d8cef730$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <2.2.32.20060513061513.00bbf31c@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:29:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net X-Spam-Status: No Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:15 AM Subject: Re: Betteries > At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn >>if >>a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to >>learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will >>hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally >>more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. >>.If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before >>the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. >> >>I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and >>Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. >>Richard > > > I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like > Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four > sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced > Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain > capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous > schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) > > Frank > Expert testimony can not be relied on. There are way too many examples of expert testimony being fraudulent due to monetary or other interests to rely on such "proofs", unless the proof is overwhelming and verified in many quarters. Certainly one expert claiming a technology works as promised is not suitable verification. Seen any Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq lately? The "experts" told us they were there, and the nation went to war over it, but amazingly all those "experts" were dead wrong. I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 05:45:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DCj0ct016847; Sat, 13 May 2006 05:45:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DCixbP016825; Sat, 13 May 2006 05:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 05:44:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012e01c6768b$0b517fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <2.2.32.20060513061513.00bbf31c@pop.freeserve.net> <017f01c67688$d8cef730$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 14:44:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <4FOCE.A.wGE.KTdZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Quite right John, we all know what expert testimony is worth. On your second point I disagree that because aluminum is cheap a nanotechnology device based on aluminum will be cheap. In many areas raw material cost is irrelevant, e.g. the sand from which expensive silicon computer chips are made is dirt cheap (literally ;) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Coviello" To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Betteries > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Grimer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:15 AM > Subject: Re: Betteries > > >> At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>>It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn >>>if >>>a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed >>>to >>>learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will >>>hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally >>>more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. >>>.If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before >>>the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real >>>world. >>> >>>I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and >>>Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. >>>Richard >> >> >> I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like >> Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four >> sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced >> Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain >> capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous >> schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) >> >> Frank >> > > Expert testimony can not be relied on. There are way too many examples of > expert testimony being fraudulent due to monetary or other interests to > rely on such "proofs", unless the proof is overwhelming and verified in > many quarters. Certainly one expert claiming a technology works as > promised is not suitable verification. Seen any Weapons of Mass > Destruction in Iraq lately? The "experts" told us they were there, and > the nation went to war over it, but amazingly all those "experts" were > dead wrong. > > I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of > capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very > warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume > that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. > We'll see if anything comes of this. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 06:37:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DDbdfq003398; Sat, 13 May 2006 06:37:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DDbbNL003377; Sat, 13 May 2006 06:37:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:37:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:37:33 -0400 Message-Id: <8C844A9864F65FB-CFC-616E@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <2.2.32.20060513061513.00bbf31c@pop.freeserve.net> <017f01c67688$d8cef730$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <017f01c67688$d8cef730$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Betteries Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4DDbZHE003358 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Coviello I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this.  <><><><><><> As I look into the archives, I see Chris Zell originally posted on this Al bettery some time ago. US patent 6,482,548 describes a similar technology with almost as great an energy density: "EXAMPLE V Yet another cell embodiment of the present invention was prepared, along with a comparative single-cation Li.sup.+ cell, comprising negative and separator members of the foregoing examples with a positive electrode member comprising a MoS.sub.x active material prepared by thermal decomposition of ammonium tetrathiomolybdate. The cells were activated respectively with 1.0 M Li(CF.sub.3 SO.sub.3) and 0.5 M Al(CF.sub.3 SO.sub.3).sub.3 electrolyte solutions in EC:DMC and tested through extended charge-discharge cycles at a rate of 7 ma/g. The plots of data obtained in these tests depict initial discharge capacity in FIG. 6 and long-term cycling characteristics of the cells in FIG. 7. The extraordinary increase in initial discharge capacity exhibited, at Al.sup.3+, by the cell of the present invention over that, at Li.sup.+, of the prior art cell is clearly evident in FIG. 6. The remarkable aspect of the performance of the present dual cation cell is seen in FIG. 7 where the Al.sup.3+ cell maintains after extensive cycling a 50% greater specific capacity calculated to be about 525 mAh/g. " It is assigned to Telcordia Technologies in Morristown NJ. Terry     ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 06:43:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DDgmOq006094; Sat, 13 May 2006 06:42:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DDgl4S006075; Sat, 13 May 2006 06:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 06:42:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c67693$17c0cfe0$b1037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: New Energy Times- Steve Krivit May 10, 2006 online magazine Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:42:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67669.2E48BB80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67669.2E48BB80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C67669.2E4A4220" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C67669.2E4A4220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, After reading Steven's May issue I sense a season of common sense = present in the cold fusion community. Tell it like it is, hold nothing = back and lets facts be submitted to a candid world.=20 The sooner the CF phase of new energy focus responds to the " cleansing = action of the tide of facts", the better. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C67669.2E4A4220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
After reading Steven's May issue I sense a season of common sense = present=20 in the cold fusion community. Tell it like it is, hold nothing back and = lets=20 facts be submitted to a candid world.
The sooner the CF phase of new energy focus responds to the " = cleansing=20 action of the tide of facts", the better.
 
Richard
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C67669.2E4A4220-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67669.2E48BB80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c67693$171107e0$b1037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67669.2E48BB80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 07:32:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DEVsOM032540; Sat, 13 May 2006 07:31:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DEVoB7032505; Sat, 13 May 2006 07:31:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:31:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WSqW63pF89eKzigrpaGQ1vsI9Cq2DT9cp/fUH4q2rkCtREwc4nRG6hderkrF2bkz; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <15703285.1147530707105.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:31:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: New Energy Times- Steve Krivit May 10, 2006 online magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c3193ec2cb167f2b0324355a13f162d7118bcfccd46e16a59350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4DEVkrr032453 Resent-Message-ID: <2Ng2hB.A.w7H.V3eZEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >After reading Steven's May issue I sense a season of common sense present in the cold fusion community. Tell it like it is, hold nothing back and lets facts be submitted to a candid world. >The sooner the CF phase of new energy focus responds to the " cleansing action of the tide of facts", the better. I kind of agree but then again . . . Krivit's comments seem kind of somewhat mean spirited, and for the most part he described ordinary human foibles. I would not have written most of it, because it is inconsequential. For example, I might have written one sentence summarizing a large chunk of the report: "George’s co-workers often complain that he takes too much credit for his contributions." That’s true but it is hardly unusual or scandalous. This personality trait is annoying at first, but after you get to know Russ George well it is almost endearing. George's biggest problem, it seems to me, is that he has no talent for lying. If you are going to take credit for other people’s work, don’t do in a way that anyone can discover. If you are going to claim a 1-kW reactor, don't do it on a web page in a public corporation where people will demand proof. George is not hurting anyone as far as I know. If he has no experimental proof of the 1-kW claim, he is making a fool of himself. But in that case no one will invest and no harm will be done. I know him and his co-workers well and I am sure they are not involved in anything like a perpetual motion machine scam. On the other hand, I must admit, it does look like they are scamming , and that makes the field look disreputable, doesn't it? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 08:03:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DF2o9A015121; Sat, 13 May 2006 08:02:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DF2nxM015109; Sat, 13 May 2006 08:02:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:02:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GWHq6dlHRlNzcMcGocVXukEi5+USUoq/M+H69b0tn0BoAGgT56OHUjT7mUT1EY+W; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006561315237144@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:02:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f02dc2328fdca787d352aee53aabdeda350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.218 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII These people seem to stay more focused on relevant matters. http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 Worry about storing the energy after figuring out how to get it on the cheap. Posted Earlier: > > The 4.6 eV work function of Nickel is close to the 4.52 eV > work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2 > is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten. > OTOH, with a Helmholtz Double Layer Zeta Potential > of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable > to a Boltzman temperature of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV. > IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold > electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is > possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron > to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if > the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential > (about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts). > = 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB According to the Dushman equation J = Ao*T^2*e^- bo/T For Nickel Ao = 3.0E5 amp/meter^2/deg^2 , bo = 58000 = 11,600 * Ew (work function eV) With a 0.125 volt Zeta Potential T = 0.125*11600 = 1450 deg K Hence the current density J = 3.0E5* 1450^2 * e^ - 58000/1450 = 2.68E-3 amperes per square meter. OTOH. increasing the Zeta Potential to 0.150 volts increases current density J to 3.0 amperes per square meter, at a Zeta Potential of 0.2 volts J increases to 22,000 amperes per square meter. More than you need in the approximately 0.7 square meter Metal-Water Interface area in the JOE CELL. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/12/2006 7:06:58 PM Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it, will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the re-circulated H2O. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and the Helmholtz Double-Layer Reduction-Oxidation Effect of High Purity Water on a sufficient large anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path. 2 H2O <---> OH - + H3O+ Cathode H3O + + e- -----> H2O + H (gas) Anode OH - - e- ------> OH (gas) ICE Combustion H + OH -----> H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
These people seem to stay more focused on relevant matters.
 
 
Worry about storing the energy after figuring out how to get it on the cheap.
Posted Earlier:
>
> The  4.6 eV work function of Nickel  is close to the 4.52 eV
> work function of Tungsten, but the Amp/Meter^2/Deg^2
> is half the 6.0E5 for Tungsten.
> OTOH, with a Helmholtz  Double Layer Zeta Potential
> of 0.125 volts at the Water-Nickel Interface. which is comparable
> to a Boltzman temperature  of 1450 K based 11600 K/eV.
> IOW with the right surface conditions of the metal "cold
> electron donation" of the metal to the H3O+ or H+ is
> possible. Likewise for the donation of the OH- electron
> to the image charge on the Nickel Anode especially if
> the electrodes are "pre-biased" using Contact Potential
> (about 0.21 volts for Iron-Nickel or Copper-Nickel 0.3 volts).
>
= 12,555 joule/gram = 12 BTU/gram = 5,500BTU/LB
 
 
 
According to the Dushman equation J = Ao*T^2*e^- bo/T
 
For Nickel Ao = 3.0E5 amp/meter^2/deg^2 ,
 
bo = 58000 = 11,600 * Ew (work function eV)
 
With a 0.125 volt Zeta Potential T = 0.125*11600 = 1450 deg K
 
Hence the current density J = 3.0E5* 1450^2 *  e^ - 58000/1450
 
= 2.68E-3 amperes per square meter.
 
OTOH. increasing the Zeta Potential to 0.150 volts increases
current density J to 3.0  amperes per square meter,
at a Zeta Potential of 0.2 volts J increases to 22,000 amperes
per square meter. 
 
More than you need in the approximately 0.7 square
meter Metal-Water Interface area in the JOE CELL.   :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/12/2006 7:06:58 PM
Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie

Quite obviously a high compression engine (spark or diesel ignition) 
operated closed-cycle using Argon in the manner that Caltech used it,
will work as well as theirs except that the low pressure high Metal-Water Interface
surface area and a higher Ion Product Constant Autoionization Self Electrolysis
of warmer water ( low current battery bias) will negate the need for electrolyzing the
re-circulated H2O.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/12/2006 4:28:58 PM
Subject: Re: Burning Water, 5,500 BTU/LB Freebie

No magic ingredients, just Autoionization and  the Helmholtz Double-Layer
Reduction-Oxidation Effect  of  High Purity Water on a sufficient large
anode-cathode metal surface area with a current return path.
 
2 H2O <---> OH -   +   H3O+
 
Cathode H3O +  + e-   ----->  H2O +  H   (gas)
 
Anode OH -  -  e-   ------>    OH  (gas)
 
ICE Combustion H + OH ----->   H2O + 226,000 joule/gram-mole
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 10:40:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DHe8sH008642; Sat, 13 May 2006 10:40:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DHe66q008622; Sat, 13 May 2006 10:40:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:40:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c676b4$3e69cdb0$b1037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: New Energy Times- Steve Krivit May 10, 2006 online magazine Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 12:39:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6768A.550122A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6768A.550122A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6768A.5502A940" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6768A.5502A940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jed wrote.. >On the other hand, I must admit, it does look like they are scamming , = and that makes the field look disreputable, doesn't it? Howdy Jed, The CF community enjoys the benefits of critique. Like a tidal action = within an estuary has a cleansing action. It's hard and difficult work = building sand castles on the beach, only to have the tide come and wash = them away. CF is no game for a blind man and it has its own ways of = keeping honest people honest. It is not the winners that win, it's the = ones that refuse to lose. That is the spirit behind cold fusion.=20 Too bad the hot fusion programs lack such.. Betcha that if they had a = Steve Krivit loose with a mop and Jed Rothwell with a printer... wow! = Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6768A.5502A940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 
Jed wrote..
>On the other hand, I must admit, it does look like they are = scamming ,=20 and that makes the field look disreputable, doesn't it?

Howdy Jed,

The CF community enjoys the benefits of critique. Like a tidal action = within=20 an estuary has a cleansing action. It's hard and difficult work building = sand=20 castles on the beach, only to have the tide come and wash them away. CF = is no=20 game for a blind man and  it has its own ways of keeping = honest people=20 honest. It is not the winners that win, it's the ones that refuse to = lose. That=20 is the spirit behind cold fusion.

Too bad the hot fusion programs lack such.. Betcha that if they = had=20  a Steve Krivit loose with a mop and Jed Rothwell with a printer... = wow!=20 <grin>

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6768A.5502A940-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6768A.550122A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c676b4$3dce02e0$b1037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6768A.550122A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 16:38:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4DNcT3T003467; Sat, 13 May 2006 16:38:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4DNcRHR003450; Sat, 13 May 2006 16:38:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 16:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01dc01c676e6$7d762c10$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: References: <2.2.32.20060513061513.00bbf31c@pop.freeserve.net> <017f01c67688$d8cef730$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> <8C844A9864F65FB-CFC-616E@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:39:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net X-Spam-Status: No Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's the run down on Betteries and Europositron. This below index has all the relevant links. There is quite a lot on the Internet about this company and technology. The company was founded in 1989. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Europositron_Rechargeable_Aluminum_Batteries From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 18:23:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4E1NRCJ031776; Sat, 13 May 2006 18:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4E1NQTT031767; Sat, 13 May 2006 18:23:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:23:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.4] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: FW: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:23:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_e50_240_67b4" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2006 01:23:24.0362 (UTC) FILETIME=[FEAF0AA0:01C676F4] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_e50_240_67b4 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Mark Goldes >To: Mark Goldes >Subject: Fwd: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine >Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:20:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Note: forwarded message attached. ------=_NextPart_000_e50_240_67b4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Apparently-To: overtone03@yahoo.com via 206.190.48.67; Fri, 12 May 2006 12:48:40 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.163.187.202] Authentication-Results: mta216.mail.re2.yahoo.com from=comcast.net; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 66.163.187.202 (HELO n11c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.202) by mta216.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 12:48:40 -0700 Received: from [66.163.187.123] by n11.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by t4.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.99] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 6815653-m131 X-Sender: tventura6@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24713 invoked from network); 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rwcrmhc13.comcast.net) (216.148.227.153) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from pentagon (c-71-231-182-24.hsd1.or.comcast.net[71.231.182.24]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20060512184507m1300fbvhde>; Fri, 12 May 2006 18:45:07 +0000 To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcZ19C7qBMnkoR6OQFudACaWi+wbng== X-Originating-IP: 216.148.227.153 From: "Tim Ventura" X-Yahoo-Profile: tventura6 Sender: americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com; contact americanantigravity-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:45:04 -0700 Subject: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine Reply-To: americanantigravity-owner@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="mkTf-69N7BeXtiroR9GQM2QWBlnDXoz3QqAIPk0" Content-Length: 1403 X-Apparently-To: overtone03@yahoo.com via 206.190.48.67; Fri, 12 May 2006 12:48:40 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [66.163.187.202] Authentication-Results: mta216.mail.re2.yahoo.com from=comcast.net; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 66.163.187.202 (HELO n11c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.202) by mta216.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 12:48:40 -0700 Received: from [66.163.187.123] by n11.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by t4.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.99] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 May 2006 19:46:44 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 6815653-m131 X-Sender: tventura6@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24713 invoked from network); 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rwcrmhc13.comcast.net) (216.148.227.153) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2006 19:46:41 -0000 Received: from pentagon (c-71-231-182-24.hsd1.or.comcast.net[71.231.182.24]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20060512184507m1300fbvhde>; Fri, 12 May 2006 18:45:07 +0000 To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcZ19C7qBMnkoR6OQFudACaWi+wbng== X-Originating-IP: 216.148.227.153 From: "Tim Ventura" X-Yahoo-Profile: tventura6 Sender: americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com; contact americanantigravity-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:45:04 -0700 Subject: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine Reply-To: americanantigravity-owner@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="mkTf-69N7BeXtiroR9GQM2QWBlnDXoz3QqAIPk0" Content-Length: 1403 --mkTf-69N7BeXtiroR9GQM2QWBlnDXoz3QqAIPk0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The MYT engine is the result of a $4 million dollar R&D project undertaken by Angel Labs LLC to build the ultimate internal combusion engine. Inspired by drag racing, inventor Raphial Morgado designed the engine with a focus on power, torque, and fuel-efficiency to meet the hefty demands of the today's automotive applications in a lightweight package. The result was a revolutionary design with a power-to-weight ratio up to 40 to 1, over 3,000 ft/lbs of torque, and a diesel-mode mileage in excess of 150 mpg! Our exclusive PDF Interview: http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/541/1/ Streaming Video Presentation & Demo Footage: http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/540/1/ Sincerely; Timothy M. Ventura American Antigravity, Inc http://www.americanantigravity.com tventura6@comcast.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --mkTf-69N7BeXtiroR9GQM2QWBlnDXoz3QqAIPk0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yahoo! Groups My Groups | americanantigravity Main Page

The MYT engine is the result of a $4 million dollar R&D project undertaken
by Angel Labs LLC to build the ultimate internal combusion engine. Inspired
by drag racing, inventor Raphial Morgado designed the engine with a focus on
power, torque, and fuel-efficiency to meet the hefty demands of the today's
automotive applications in a lightweight package. The result was a
revolutionary design with a power-to-weight ratio up to 40 to 1, over 3,000
ft/lbs of torque, and a diesel-mode mileage in excess of 150 mpg!

Our exclusive PDF Interview:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/541/1/

Streaming Video Presentation & Demo Footage:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/540/1/

Sincerely;

Timothy M. Ventura
American Antigravity, Inc
http://www.americanantigravity.com <http://www.americanantigravity.com/>
tventura6@comcast.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



--mkTf-69N7BeXtiroR9GQM2QWBlnDXoz3QqAIPk0-- ------=_NextPart_000_e50_240_67b4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 13 19:19:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4E2Jird015781; Sat, 13 May 2006 19:19:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4E2JhCN015765; Sat, 13 May 2006 19:19:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 19:19:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:19:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004501c675db$d8e19d70$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <004501c675db$d8e19d70$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 14 May 2006 02:19:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4E2Jb1u015737 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 08:50:50 -0700: Hi, [snip] >> Negative muons orbit at the Bohr radius (BR) * electron mass / >> muon mass. Hence hydrinohydride should try to do the same, > >Not necessarily, Robin. There is some evidence that leptons >experience inertia (and gravity) differently than fermions. Mills >even buys into that one. The point being that this is not an >apples-to-apples comparison as the Bohr radius applies >specifically to leptons. This is an excellent point. The only thing IMO that determines an electron orbit is the fact that it orbits at radii where it's De Broglie wave is self reinforcing. However for a self-contained and stable entity such as hydrinohydride this isn't necessary at all, so that any radius ought to be possible. OTOH since it is a charged particle orbiting in a magnetic field (K nucleus has a magnetic moment), it should radiate and spiral into the nucleus, or at least as close as it's own radius will allow. > >> Either way, it is larger than the distance at which it should >> orbit. This leaves several possible scenarios:- > >> 1) It sits snug against the nucleus at it's own radius. > >This can probably be ruled out because of the strong force... That depends on the distance, and the charge on the nucleus. Both are parameters in the exponent of "e" which determines the half life, so even small changes in either, can result in huge changes to the half life of the fusion reaction. [snip] >Perhaps the shrinkage is either n=1/16 or 1/17 ... in the range of >the maximum enthalpy. IOW maximum enthalpy instead of maximum Also true. At n=1/16, the radius of the hydrino is either BR/16 = 3300 F (according to Mills), or BR/16^2 = 206 F (according to me). For Potassium, I get a K shell electron radius of either 2785 F (ab initio) or 7583 F (based on X-ray absorption). I must be doing something wrong! :) >shrinkage. Perhaps these are also the only ones which can easily >escape - in the solar corona - that is: the hydrinos which are >favored to be expelled in a solar-genesis situation, over geologic >time. Lets see - at 1/16 the radius of the hydrino is a factor of >32,000 times reduced over the Bohr radius. Not sure where you get 32000 from. >Of course there are >many other problems with this whole scenario - to wit: > >Mills has apparently collected gram-sized supplies of tightly >bound K-Hy- (images on his web site) and we can assume from that >situation that he has proven in so doing that the excess charge is >nullified by the strong covalence (ionic --> covalent bonding), >meaning that 20 total electrons remain in the compound; but can >that be "confused" (in "inertness") with the net 18 electrons of >argon? i.e. instead of 20 of a normal hydride. The scenario we are >getting at would be easier to pull-off starting with chlorine. For >this to work out chemically with potassium, the 20 electrons must >"look like" the 18 of Argon, no? That might be the expected >outcome of an extremely tight bonding scenario... Think of the Hy- as a negative proton. It adds the mass of a proton, but reduces the central charge by 1. Hence K39 becomes Ar40. As far as the electrons are concerned, they think they are orbiting an Argon nucleus, and will arrange themselves accordingly. > >...plus it provides another route to falsifiability - in that in a >normal tank of Argon, where there are three stable isotopes: 36, >38, and 40 and with 40Ar accounting for 99.6% of the total - >THEN - of that 99.6, the "special-K" component should have an >extra mass of 2 electrons, compared with the "real" argon, no? Well no. It should weigh in at about 8.5 MeV more than real Argon, due to the "free" proton. (When protons fuse with other nuclei there is a mass/energy conversion. Since this hasn't taken place in special-K, the excess mass is still present). >Even with a ppm population of this heavier "argon" of special-K, >there should be a "blip" on the mass-spec chart. Yes, unless of course *all* Ar40 is actually special-K, in which case there wouldn't be any difference between the currently measured value of Ar40 and K+H. However there is a difference, 8.5 MeV. From which we may conclude that certainly not all Ar40 is special K (and probably none of it ;). > >We must also assume that the Hy- shrinkage in those samples Mills >has collected is near the minimum (i.e they are much larger in >radius - one or two steps of shrinkage) than the tiny size needed >to "gasify" the atom into "special-K" which would be the Argon >substitute. Yes. > >Bizarro! The real problem in the whole scenario seems to be to get >a molecule to bond so tightly that it "looks like" a monatomic >noble gas, correct? It is no wonder that NO mainstream scientist >would touch this line of reasoning "with a ten-foot pole" Actually there may be another example. Some Deuterium may actually be "Hy- + proton" nucleus with an electron circling this "nucleus" just as though it were a true Deuterium nucleus. This "molecular" nucleus would split at relatively low energies (keV iso MeV), which might give rise to some of the Phillips-Oppenheimer reactions. (Though there isn't any real neutron present, so it would have to be reactions where a proton is absorbed into the other nucleus, or else a proton absorbtion combined with a near instantaneous electron capture reaction enhanced by the close proximity of the shrunken electron.) One might then wonder why the faux deuterium nucleus hadn't already fused into a real deuterium nucleus? This might be explained by the greater nergy release available from fusion with another nucleus compared to deuterium formation (perhaps nuclear reactions tend to happen more readily, the larger the energy involved). IOW the half-life of deuterium formation could be long enough to ensure that there is always a population of faux deuterium. [snip] >However, that little "blip" mentioned above - the putative one on >the mass-spec charts, previously ignored or dismissed as a "relic" >of the instrumentation - yes ! ... that would be enough. But is it >there? The $64000 question! :) > >> BTW for the Auger scenario to play out, it would seem to me that >> one would have to put as much energy into the compound atom to >> dislodge the hydrino hydride as was initially released when it >> entered. > >Here again, this is a logical assumption based on what happens >with leptons. No, it's really just based on conservation of energy. >The assumption might NOT be valid for species whose >charge to mass ratio is massively different. Not to mention, the >Hy- may not become totally dislodged itself - but due to its much >lower mass (compared to the K nucleus). If it is severely jostled >about, under circumstance which go beyond normal acceleration into >"jerk" then we could have the Auger cascade with ZPE stepping-in >later to restore some normalcy to the situation. Assuming there is a ZPE. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 02:51:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4E9pVSe004220; Sun, 14 May 2006 02:51:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4E9pTZA004210; Sun, 14 May 2006 02:51:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 02:51:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=llW4vTOhrS6OrmemhqDJO8YS75MGgOorVUci335W8UCCJjoNYDY2FWcOoXLPiJh383wHDMUj/mSpK1W02mB19swGIaZg7lNsHjMv2/cYAyE1AbWwcDx5VMme/NjvqDchsg8XlAB92e/ZuRo7nOAYTBs6LA/1fW25zv2ogQt7+u0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:51:28 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_43114_12675914.1147600288157" References: <20060510142133.48107.qmail@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004501c675db$d8e19d70$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_43114_12675914.1147600288157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vos, My general understanding .... with respect to Vortex.... [1] One does not clog up BW with repeat of repeat;;; [2] This contributor would be greatly heartened should contributors augment experimental physics.... [3] Please On 5/13/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: ------=_Part_43114_12675914.1147600288157 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vos,
 
 
   My general understanding .... with respect to Vortex....<= /div>
 
   [1]  One does not clog up BW with repeat of repeat;;= ;
 
  [2]  This contributor would be greatly heartened should co= ntributors augment experimental physics....
 
   [3]  Please

 
On 5/13/06, = Robin van Spaandonk <rvan= spaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
------=_Part_43114_12675914.1147600288157-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 02:58:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4E9wHa4007158; Sun, 14 May 2006 02:58:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4E9wFtL007136; Sun, 14 May 2006 02:58:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 02:58:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=f94Cmz9X8akq76z8PbCoTky9qWh3wkbayFNQDNmqLI2rB32OiaNSE7+tkb1MzKrwS+DmCuewPHiaSXbkhhwUqpnSTRn5ZHOWwU781YM5kCgr4HCJVwpmrG3XwhFhWlp8H/t+rM8w+109S5Jeho7R8xz6FewbCRlXAiPv497V1E0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:58:14 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FW: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_43162_18121393.1147600694143" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_43162_18121393.1147600694143 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Contributor, I am new to this forum. I am unsure who is contributing what. I would be very happy to understand real reductions to practice. I hav= e read many contributions which describe theory. Are there any reductions to practice which can be described or verified by real world metric? Thank you, HJ On 5/13/06, Mark Goldes wrote: > > > > > >From: Mark Goldes > >To: Mark Goldes > >Subject: Fwd: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine > >Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:20:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > >Note: forwarded message attached. > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Tim Ventura" > To: > Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:45:04 -0700 > Subject: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny Engine > > [image: Yahoo! Groups] My Groups| americanantigravity > Main Page > > The MYT engine is the result of a $4 million dollar R&D project undertake= n > by Angel Labs LLC to build the ultimate internal combusion engine. > Inspired > by drag racing, inventor Raphial Morgado designed the engine with a focus > on > power, torque, and fuel-efficiency to meet the hefty demands of the > today's > automotive applications in a lightweight package. The result was a > revolutionary design with a power-to-weight ratio up to 40 to 1, over > 3,000 > ft/lbs of torque, and a diesel-mode mileage in excess of 150 mpg! > > Our exclusive PDF Interview: > http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/541/1/ > > Streaming Video Presentation & Demo Footage: > http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/540/1/ > > Sincerely; > > Timothy M. Ventura > American Antigravity, Inc > http://www.americanantigravity.com > tventura6@comcast.net > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > - Visit your group "americanantigravity" > on the web. > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > americanantigravity-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------=_Part_43162_18121393.1147600694143 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Dear  Contributor,
 
   I am new to this forum.  I am unsure who is contribu= ting what.
 
    I would be very happy to understand real reductions= to practice.  I have read many contributions which describe theory.
 
           &nbs= p; Are there any reductions to practice which can be described or verified = by real world metric?
 
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Thank you,
 
           &nbs= p;        HJ

 
On 5/13/06, = Mark Goldes <mgoldes@msn.com&= gt; wrote:



>From: Mark Goldes <overtone03@yahoo.com>
>To: Mark Goldes < mgoldes@msn.com>
>Subject: Fwd: [americanantigravity] The Mass= ive Yet Tiny Engine
>Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
&= gt;
>
>
>Note: forwarded message attached.


 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: &= quot;Tim Ventura" <tventur= a6@comcast.net>
To: < americanantigravity@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 = 11:45:04 -0700
Subject: [americanantigravity] The Massive Yet Tiny = Engine

My Groups | americanantigravity Main Page

The MYT engine is the result of a $4 million dollar R&D project unde= rtaken
by Angel Labs LLC to build the ultimate internal combusion engine= . Inspired
by drag racing, inventor Raphial Morgado designed the engine = with a focus on
power, torque, and fuel-efficiency to meet the hefty demands of the tod= ay's
automotive applications in a lightweight package. The result was a<= br>revolutionary design with a power-to-weight ratio up to 40 to 1, over 3,= 000
ft/lbs of torque, and a diesel-mode mileage in excess of 150 mpg!
Our exclusive PDF Interview:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/541/1/

Streaming Vid= eo Presentation & Demo Footage:
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/540/1/

Sincerely;
Timothy M. Ventura
American Antigravity, Inc
http://www.americanantigravity.com <http://www.americanantigravity.com/>
tventura6@comcast.net



[Non-text portions of this message= have been removed]


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




------=_Part_43162_18121393.1147600694143-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 03:01:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EA11SF008302; Sun, 14 May 2006 03:01:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EA10jW008276; Sun, 14 May 2006 03:01:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 03:01:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KnSZzHFQqNijoh2wDvbDocJhBm58sC6qpRlrfgoeMLYSPalIzcjakgU/smribPzRVqiCbvcXfALHS/84RHPbO24yLeXE5mon2qtOG797swRAQ95PxMjInn0McNLWVS4MaHmgJ7r7TV6DElyan2czVmZI7l3ZByHnbDAScT5tq+k= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 06:00:59 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Betteries In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060513062052.00bc2754@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_43170_10506978.1147600859418" References: <2.2.32.20060513062052.00bc2754@pop.freeserve.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_43170_10506978.1147600859418 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline What is ""GRC""??? On 5/13/06, Grimer wrote: > > At 07:06 am 13/05/2006 +0100, you wrote: > >At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: John Coviello > >> > >>Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything > >>except a European a stock scam? > >> > >><><><><><><><> > >> > >>http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=3D34239544 > > > > > >Mmm....Interesting. > >Proof enough for me. 8-) > > > >Frank Grimer > > > But having read Richard's post and remembering my own > experience with GRC I think that John is right to be > suspicious. What do they say - if it seems too good > to be true, it probably is. ;-) > > Time will tell. > > Frank > > > ------=_Part_43170_10506978.1147600859418 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

 What is ""GRC""???
 

 
On 5/13/06, = Grimer <f.grimer= @grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
At 07:06 am 13/05/2006 +0100, yo= u wrote:
>At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>= ;>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John Coviello
&g= t;>
>>Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is a= nything
>>except a European a stock scam?
>>
>>&= lt;><><><><><><>
>>
>>http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-relea= se.pag?docid=3D34239544
>
>
>Mmm....Interesting.
&= gt;Proof enough for me.  8-)
>
>Frank Grimer


But having read Richard's post and = remembering my own
experience with GRC I think that John is right to be<= br>suspicious. What do they say - if it seems too good
to be true, it pr= obably is.  ;-)

Time will tell.

Frank



------=_Part_43170_10506978.1147600859418-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 05:00:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EC0JX8022367; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:00:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EC0I8o022357; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:00:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:00:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060514120015397.610E4900008C@mwinf3207.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060514120016.00b9583c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 13:00:16 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Betteries Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:00 am 14/05/2006 -0400, John Herman wrote: > What is ""GRC""??? "Glass fibre reinforced cement, generally referred to as GRC is a combination of alkali resistant drawn glass fibre (ARG) and a cement based matrix." http://www.abbeystoneproducts.co.uk/grc.htm FG From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 05:13:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ECCo2i027178; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:12:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ECCi5W027120; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:12:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c6774f$ad5999d0$a4037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: John Herman Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 07:12:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67725.C3580A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67725.C3580A20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C67725.C3580A20" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C67725.C3580A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy John,=20 Pour yourself a cup of coffee, have a seat and welcome to the = conversation. GRC is glass reinforced concrete but Grimer can explain = the idea sorta crumbled. Pappajo engines evolved from the time when = kids were searching for something better than rubber bands. Hydrinos are = sorta like the story of the crazy aunt where one can make up their own = scenario of what or who is actually in the basement making strange = noises. Our esteemed leader-moderator has apparently grown fond of his = collection of "persons" that populate the Vorts section of the asylum. = Warning however, some are very good at playing poker with a pinocle = deck. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C67725.C3580A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy John,
 
Pour yourself a cup of coffee, have a seat and welcome to the = conversation.=20 GRC is glass reinforced concrete but Grimer can explain the idea sorta = crumbled.=20 Pappajo engines evolved from the time  when kids were searching for = something better than rubber bands. Hydrinos are sorta like the story of = the=20 crazy aunt where one can make up their own scenario of what or who is = actually=20 in the basement making strange noises.
Our esteemed leader-moderator has apparently grown fond of his = collection=20 of "persons" that populate the Vorts section of the asylum. Warning = however,=20 some are very good at playing poker with a pinocle deck.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C67725.C3580A20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67725.C3580A20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c6774f$ac1273d0$a4037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67725.C3580A20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 05:25:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ECPeKW031696; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:25:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ECPddN031681; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:25:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:25:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IiSFqKw1NPHLP0Clx9YRht1qUOD+1R66Y778ppqput9DD5WFAiOYqXeFf7nPrDLQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006501412253394@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 06:25:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400bc63bab862b76c274f46bf37a63f7dd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Robin and Jones. There's a SNAP Generator with potassium and argon filled heat pipes sitting on the Moon, also in Pioneer-10, Voyagers 1 & 2 and other long term space probes. The potassium I used for testing the heat pipes came in steel containers sealed under Argon pressure. Also, I used Argon as a cover gas for life-testing the heat pipes in a sealed glass-covered box at RCA Lancaster (next to Thermacore-Mills environs) and in the lab, but, I didn't think to look for Heavy Argon, even though Potassium-Argonide compounds were discussed ca.1967-70. I gather that Mills is running Potassium-Argon (hydrogen) discharges? Feel free to retrieve them if you wish. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Robin and Jones.
 
There's a SNAP Generator with potassium and argon filled heat pipes sitting
on the Moon, also in Pioneer-10, Voyagers 1 & 2 and other long term
space probes.
The potassium I used for testing the heat pipes came in steel
containers sealed under Argon pressure.
 
Also, I used Argon as a cover gas for life-testing the heat pipes in a sealed
glass-covered box at RCA Lancaster (next to Thermacore-Mills environs)
and in the lab, but, I didn't think to look for Heavy Argon, even though
Potassium-Argonide compounds were discussed ca.1967-70. 
 
I gather that Mills is running Potassium-Argon (hydrogen) discharges?
 
Feel free to retrieve them if you wish.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 05:42:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ECgZB2006571; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:42:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ECgYiI006560; Sun, 14 May 2006 05:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 05:42:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=knlUdNlQ7wiAGaFueG6UbnbRIVgbkWZHrtCMrL0uM7vF4Dd/Jpds0muldew8q2hf; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006501412422569@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 06:42:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bedb96ebcae3a7521eacadb90eeea527350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some SNAP-27 Info: http://www.nasm.si.edu/GALLERIES/ATTM/nojs/la.s27.1.html "The SNAP-27 Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG) converted the heat energy from radioactive decay to electrical energy. Five such RTGs provided electric power for the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Packages (ALSEP) left on the Moon by Apollos 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17. These stations transmitted information about moonquakes and meteor impacts, lunar magnetic and gravitational fields, the Moon's internal temperature, and the Moon's atmosphere for several years after the missions. After ten years, a SNAP-27 still produces more than 90% of its initial output of 70 Watts." After ~ 30 years at 12 Light-Hours distance Pioneer-10 power output was "within 15% o launch power". ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/14/2006 6:26:11 AM Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine Robin and Jones. There's a SNAP Generator with potassium and argon filled heat pipes sitting on the Moon, also in Pioneer-10, Voyagers 1 & 2 and other long term space probes. The potassium I used for testing the heat pipes came in steel containers sealed under Argon pressure. Also, I used Argon as a cover gas for life-testing the heat pipes in a sealed glass-covered box at RCA Lancaster (next to Thermacore-Mills environs) and in the lab, but, I didn't think to look for Heavy Argon, even though Potassium-Argonide compounds were discussed ca.1967-70. I gather that Mills is running Potassium-Argon (hydrogen) discharges? Feel free to retrieve them if you wish. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Some SNAP-27 Info:
 
 
"The SNAP-27 Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG) converted the heat energy from radioactive decay to electrical energy. Five such RTGs provided electric power for the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Packages (ALSEP) left on the Moon by Apollos 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17. These stations transmitted information about moonquakes and meteor impacts, lunar magnetic and gravitational fields, the Moon's internal temperature, and the Moon's atmosphere for several years after the missions. After ten years, a SNAP-27 still produces more than 90% of its initial output of 70 Watts."
 
After ~ 30 years at 12 Light-Hours distance Pioneer-10 power
output was "within 15% o launch power".
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/14/2006 6:26:11 AM
Subject: Re: Heavy Argon, was: The Pappajo engine

Robin and Jones.
 
There's a SNAP Generator with potassium and argon filled heat pipes sitting
on the Moon, also in Pioneer-10, Voyagers 1 & 2 and other long term
space probes.
The potassium I used for testing the heat pipes came in steel
containers sealed under Argon pressure.
 
Also, I used Argon as a cover gas for life-testing the heat pipes in a sealed
glass-covered box at RCA Lancaster (next to Thermacore-Mills environs)
and in the lab, but, I didn't think to look for Heavy Argon, even though
Potassium-Argonide compounds were discussed ca.1967-70. 
 
I gather that Mills is running Potassium-Argon (hydrogen) discharges?
 
Feel free to retrieve them if you wish.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 06:10:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EDA1EE016392; Sun, 14 May 2006 06:10:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ED78VP014987; Sun, 14 May 2006 06:07:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 06:07:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EDulYH8puQxVSIzQR+9+1IdTnD4y1QBY+g69/lcICPWblqoXJGd6VW/yRzYJBu8D; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006501413656405@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Space Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 07:06:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940146acaaec64a50e011e578de46016a3b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Lots of good information here. With Pix and diagrams too. http://www.nuc.umr.edu/nuclear_facts/spacepower/spacepower.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Lots of good information here.
 
With Pix and diagrams too.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 08:52:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EFqjgm024161; Sun, 14 May 2006 08:52:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EFqPGL024056; Sun, 14 May 2006 08:52:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 08:52:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01c6776e$63ca0650$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The Call of the Wild Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 08:52:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: TOSSIN' AND TURNIN' ...w/ apologies to Ritchie Adams and Malou Rene ...this song goes out, special request, to Pam and Jack, as in P.A.M. Dirac and Jack London I couldn't sleep at all last night Just a-thinkin' 'bout tha' overcharge Sol-baby, things aren't right 'Cause ya' got too much-plus Tossin' and turnin', turnin' and tossin' Tossin' and turnin', tossin' and turnin' all night AS MasterCharge might opine: 4 protons ---> penny apiece 2 alphas ----> 2-bits mo' 2 neutrinos ---> free 4-tha-taking 2 positrons ---> huh? is that priceless gravity, or what? Conservation of charge is a funny thing, even on Ole Sol. He's the one with reciprocal plastic, so to speak... Think about it for a moment (or an eternity) - What could possibly be more volatile - in the solar corona - than those pesky electrons... especially if the damn things don't feel gravity ? Look at what we have to invent, just to balance the books. ... or else... maybe Dirac had it half-right ... in that the big Sea - you know - the imaginary one hidden from view but composed of negative-energy-electrons - is out there... yes - and touching us all (in a surprising way) but this sea takes the form of what can be identified as a "reciprocal-space" balance-sheet, and with an (enfolded) but direct vector back to Sol... (and beyond, "tortoises" all the way down) Dirac, the greatest genius in the short & shaky history of human-endeavor, came up with both ideas: "reciprocal space" and the "Sea" but did he ever envision them linked in this way? Maybe the "bleed" (i.e. the interface) from reciprocal space back into our three-space is called "gravity." Maybe Sol is a much smaller object - all puffed-up because of all those charged positrons, begging for Dirac electrons... which can only get back there in "another" space - i.e. reciprocal space. Maybe one of Jack London's fine books (and finer Zins, from Kenwood) will do that to a good nights sleep... Jones Relevant sayings of Jack to White Fang (self-"resembled" by the quoter): "A bone to the dog is not charity. Charity is the bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog." "I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet." "The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." "You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 09:17:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EGH77Z001134; Sun, 14 May 2006 09:17:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EGH4Ej001107; Sun, 14 May 2006 09:17:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:17:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BeblUl2owUfUuNgj4UGFj/8x72cSInwJ8xJ6JZP8x+Jp0sgrizRSu2nWv57p6m6o; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065014161646962@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:16:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403b176d4e4a33700e0dc6a6bf034b3976350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Speaking of Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddy in Call of The Wild, Jones. :-) Electrons are supposed to repel gravity. No? This works good when reinforced with Aerogel or Beta-Aether. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F3751869 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Speaking of Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddy in
Call of The Wild, Jones.  :-)
 
Electrons are supposed to repel gravity. No?
 
This works good when reinforced with Aerogel or Beta-Aether.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 09:22:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EGMNf7003832; Sun, 14 May 2006 09:22:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EGML8L003811; Sun, 14 May 2006 09:22:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:22:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c67772$9194c120$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220065014161646962@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:22:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C67737.E4A20D90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C67737.E4A20D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blast from the past. Now, don't tell me that Jeanette was Johnnie F's = wife ? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 9:16 AM Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Speaking of Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddy in Call of The Wild, Jones. :-) Electrons are supposed to repel gravity. No? This works good when reinforced with Aerogel or Beta-Aether. = http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=3DPTO1&Sect2=3DHITOFF&p=3D= 1&u=3D%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3D1&f=3DG&l=3D50&d=3DPALL&= RefSrch=3Dyes&Query=3DPN%2F3751869 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C67737.E4A20D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Blast from the past. Now, don't tell me = that=20 Jeanette was Johnnie F's wife <g>?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 9:16 = AM
Subject: Re: US 3,751,869

Speaking of Jeanette = McDonald and=20 Nelson Eddy in
Call of The Wild, = Jones. =20 :-)
 
Electrons are supposed to = repel=20 gravity. No?
 
This works good when = reinforced with=20 Aerogel or Beta-Aether.
 
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=3DPTO1&Sect2=3D= HITOFF&p=3D1&u=3D%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3D1= &f=3DG&l=3D50&d=3DPALL&RefSrch=3Dyes&Query=3DPN%2F375= 1869
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C67737.E4A20D90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 14 10:01:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4EH0tiV016819; Sun, 14 May 2006 10:00:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4EH0rfu016802; Sun, 14 May 2006 10:00:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:00:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pJMKr+yRDiCXB2ne8n3jKTmiiBa06qp4Fb5jy6MwYLVBbBssHjSphySWRoC3aOek; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006501417042462@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 11:00:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402d7bd422efac42811dbbba2c2f8d2335350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nope. Johnnie F's wifey is a bit younger. A later-similar design concept of the panel has been employed in two-story houses built in Albuquerque,though. They put up the panels, weld them together, spray on stucco-concrete and go. Our patent US 3,170,270 (1965) show how we proposed to connect drywall to the wires on the panel. Since I was employed by AEC-ATT at the time, they had to release their first-dibs option. Johnnie F works with his architect son building homes that start out in the $500K - $5Megabuck price range. We built the first prototype panel out of soldered welding rod in about 1963. Later resistance welded half-width panels were load tested by supporting the ends on saw horses and stacking on bricks. With a three foot high stack of bricks in the middle of a 6 foot span t the saw horses failed and when the bricks-panel hit the cement floor, the stack of bricks was intact, but, the panel failed the impact test. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: 5/14/2006 10:22:53 AM Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Blast from the past. Now, don't tell me that Jeanette was Johnnie F's wife ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 9:16 AM Subject: Re: US 3,751,869 Speaking of Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddy in Call of The Wild, Jones. :-) Electrons are supposed to repel gravity. No? This works good when reinforced with Aerogel or Beta-Aether. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F3751869 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nope. Johnnie F's wifey is a bit younger.
 
A later-similar design concept of the panel has been  employed in two-story
houses  built in Albuquerque,though.
They put up the panels, weld them together, spray on stucco-concrete
and go.
 
Our patent US 3,170,270   (1965) show how we proposed to
connect drywall to the wires on the panel.
Since I was employed by AEC-ATT at the time, they
had to release their first-dibs option. 
 
Johnnie F  works with his architect son building homes
that start out in the $500K - $5Megabuck price range.
We built the first prototype panel out of soldered
welding rod in about 1963.
Later resistance welded half-width panels were load tested
by supporting the ends on saw horses and stacking on bricks.
 
With a three foot high stack of bricks in the middle of a 6 foot span t
the saw horses failed and when the bricks-panel hit the cement
floor, the stack of bricks was intact, but, the panel failed the impact test.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/14/2006 10:22:53 AM
Subject: Re: US 3,751,869

Blast from the past. Now, don't tell me that Jeanette was Johnnie F's wife <g>?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: US 3,751,869

Speaking of Jeanette McDonald and Nelson Eddy in
Call of The Wild, Jones.  :-)
 
Electrons are supposed to repel gravity. No?
 
This works good when reinforced with Aerogel or Beta-Aether.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 00:32:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F7WesL000837; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:32:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F7WdDg000829; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:32:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 00:32:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44682E7E.1070905@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 02:32:14 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: glass reinforced concrete Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer posted I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. I'm curious about the failure of the GRC Frank. Why did it fail? and how did you estimate the time before failure? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 00:45:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F7jLPS006929; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:45:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F7jKuN006912; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:45:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 00:45:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ANnN7HKnMClozSg8qOC+2P81auVh2BP5Ls0vFTZjCkbPUHPnb0o/h2J7VYeTsX8b; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651157458402@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 01:45:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408277db3f6c1b2708e772afe19965fbda350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it? http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/e/l/electromotive%20series/source.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis
becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it?
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 01:08:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F880jL016492; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F87x8Q016487; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:07:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 01:07:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NGyrm9zeEwTfkX2XoNagzuChsY4XV0+1X8byTJyIPGFcpdrGUnFGQqbrY/eRiFGb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651158750330@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 02:07:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94031f31580bdea72b7148d130e142b3c75350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII More good advice. Galvanizing. :-) http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/15/2006 1:45:51 AM Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it? http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/e/l/electromotive%20series/source.html ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
More good advice. Galvanizing.  :-)
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/15/2006 1:45:51 AM
Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface

The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis
becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it?
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 01:25:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F8P9Zp023526; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:25:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F8P7cJ023511; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 01:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,128,1146412800"; d="scan'208"; a="760432738:sNHT56442428" Message-ID: <44683AE2.6080901@iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:25:06 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Variant? References: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-FmKzC.A.TvF.jrDaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being downunder? > > http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009 > 13288&n=2 > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > Its defiantly not joecell the fuel in a joecell is a cold plasma not liquids. the extra energy in a joecell is because the plasma is H+ and O+, no outer electrons so it wont burn until the plasma can steal electrons from some thing in the carbuater. Ryans fuel could be methanol: tasteless, colorless and looks like water. If his device is a chemical cell producing hydrogen then reacting that hydrogen with the correct catalyst and carbon source in the cell will produce methanol. An Electrolytic driven converter would amount to the tapping of a corrosion process to drive the conversion of carbon and water into methanol. Did anyone spot Steve Ryans web address when his web site was flashed up on the screen? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 01:34:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F8YeVr028129; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:34:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F8YcJ4028104; Mon, 15 May 2006 01:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 01:34:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,128,1146412800"; d="scan'208"; a="781437696:sNHT12906328" Message-ID: <44683D1A.6000506@iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:34:34 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Variant? References: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > Steve Ryan's water fuel. What is it about being downunder? > > http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=7009 > 13288&n=2 > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > Ryans url http://www.biosmeanslife.com/benefits.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 02:31:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4F9VD2d021229; Mon, 15 May 2006 02:31:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4F9VCCt021214; Mon, 15 May 2006 02:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 02:31:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X/SJfeGi4xuFDHcSq8SLuJaq/oSRH5v6/W3+0HLMzMOXT3Ui1tNQLYpbbGaZ7bUQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651159310836@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:31:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407f3526dada392029383e13579d8bdefc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII By the end of chapter 3 it starts to sink in. :-) http://www.tu-darmstadt.de/fb/ms/student/fs/german/lab/w10/mse10-0.htm 10.1 Electrochemical Reactions 10.2 Cell Potentials and the EMF Series 10.3 Galvanic Corrosion > > The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it? > > http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/e/l/electromotive%20series/source.html > > http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 03:20:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FAKeOE013677; Mon, 15 May 2006 03:20:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FAKc3q013651; Mon, 15 May 2006 03:20:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:20:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hHwzErnFB+ZC3u01zRY3eHuWiODREg80LJLy4Vc1wc9n5nyGE1gN/pjRBNR1bzR1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065115102021443@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 04:20:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e00df1684e773247e8da0d5ea058f563350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Going back to mine original contention that the Free Energy of Autoionization in water or the Ion Product and The Helmholtz Metral-Water Interface Phenomena (Zeta Potential) will allow Free Energy Dissociation of the water into O,OH , O2 and H, H2 gases in a cell with stable/passive electrodes if a Contact Potential "Bias" (in lieu of a battery) on the electrodes provides a current path. http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm By the end of chapter 3 it starts to sink in. :-) http://www.tu-darmstadt.de/fb/ms/student/fs/german/lab/w10/mse10-0.htm 10.1 Electrochemical Reactions 10.2 Cell Potentials and the EMF Series 10.3 Galvanic Corrosion > > The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it? > > http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/e/l/electromotive%20series/source.html > > http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Going back to mine original contention that  the Free Energy of
Autoionization in water or the Ion Product  and The Helmholtz
Metral-Water Interface Phenomena (Zeta Potential) will allow
Free Energy Dissociation of the water into O,OH , O2 and H, H2  
gases in a cell with stable/passive electrodes if a Contact Potential "Bias"
(in lieu of a battery) on the electrodes provides a current path.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 06:38:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FDc6PF030930; Mon, 15 May 2006 06:38:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FDbekO030663; Mon, 15 May 2006 06:37:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 06:37:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: Betteries Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:37:30 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC9B6@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Betteries Thread-Index: AcZ2koIOgFwzgNQbRJSjw242FwpabwBkd0KA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2006 13:37:32.0333 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7BBC5D0:01C67824] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4FDbVJn030547 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The thing to analyze is the efficiency. 20% for the Euro device is a bit painful. As I look into the archives, I see Chris Zell originally posted on this Al bettery some time ago. US patent 6,482,548 describes a similar technology with almost as great an energy density:     ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 07:18:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FEI1Ck020774; Mon, 15 May 2006 07:18:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FEHrF3020705; Mon, 15 May 2006 07:17:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:17:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.46] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Running on water? Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 07:17:45 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2006 14:17:48.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[579A08F0:01C6782A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From ZPEnergy.com 100 miles on 4 ounces of water? Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 @ 23:09:41 PDT by rob Science Anonymous writes: From KeelyNet news; 05/13/06 - 1994 Ford Escort gets 100 miles from 4 oz water Denny Klein just patented his process of converting H2O to HHO, producing a gas that combines the atomic power of hydrogen with the chemical stability of water. "it turns right back to water. In fact, you can see the h20 running off the sheet metal." Klein originally designed his water-burning engine for cutting metal. He thought his invention could replace acetylene in welding factories. Then one day as he drove to his laboratory in Clearwater, he thought of another way to burn his HHO gas. "On a 100 mile trip, we use about four ounces of water." Klein says his prototype 1994 Ford Escort can travel exclusively on water, though he currently has it rigged to run as a water and gasoline hybrid. 2005 Article - Working in a small, two-room shop at the Airport Business Center, Klein, 63, said he has developed a gas that speeds welding and fusing times and improves automobile fuel efficiency 30 percent. Flipping a switch on his H2O 1500, Klein picks up a hose with a metal tip, creates a spark, and instantly a blue and white glowing stream shoots out of the metal tip. He holds the tip with his fingers to prove how cool it is to the touch, unlike such a tip when oxy-acetylene is burned for welding. But the instant he sets the flame on a charcoal briquette, it glows bright orange. Then, within seconds, he burns a hole through a brick, cuts steel and melts Tungsten. The temperature of the flame is 259 degrees Fahrenheit. But it instantaneously rises to the melting temperature of whatever it touches, Klein said. Those temperatures can exceed 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. "You can't do this with any other gas," he said. Klein also has outfitted a 1994 Ford Escort station wagon with a smaller electrolyzer that injects his HHO into the gasoline in the car's engine. He said he has increased his mileage per gallon by 30 percent. / He doesn't yet have a patent, only this 40 page application and it is, I think, bustable by several 'prior art' (Rhodes) patents and Yull Brown public claims/demos for many years before - Patent Application - 20060075683 - April 13, 2006 - An electrolyzer which decomposes distilled water into a new fuel composed of hydrogen, oxygen and their molecular and magnecular bonds, called HHO. The electrolyzer can be used to provide the new combustible gas as an additive to combustion engine fuels or in flame or other generating equipment such as torches and welders. It will be soon evident that, despite a number of similarities, the HHO gas is dramatically different than the Brown gas or other gases produced by pre-existing electrolyzers. In fact, the latter is a combination of conventional hydrogen and conventional oxygen gases, that is, gases possessing the conventional "molecular" structure, having the exact stochiometric ratio of 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen. As we shall see, the HHO gas does not have such an exact stochiometric ratio but instead has basically a structure having a "magnecular" characteristic, including the presence of clusters in macroscopic percentages that cannot be explained via the usual valence bond. As a consequence, the constituents clusters of the Brown Gas and the HHO gas are dramatically different both in percentages as well as in chemical composition, as shown below. With the use of only 4 Kwh, an electrolyzer rapidly converts water into 55 standard cubic feet (scf) of HHO gas at 35 pounds per square inch (psi). By using the average daily cost of electricity at the rate of $0.08/Kwh, the above efficiency implies the direct cost of the HHO gas of $0.007/scf. It then follows that the HHO gas is cost competitive with respect to existing fuels. (Great name for the gas...Rhodes was first, Brown copied him, now Klein copies Brown though he says not...so how about just HHO gas! - JWD) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:05:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FF4pXl020302; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:04:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FF4opQ020274; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:04:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: John Herman Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:04:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C67806.FF0F5690" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <001401c6774f$ad5999d0$a4037841@xptower> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C67806.FF0F5690 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002F_01C67806.FF141180" ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C67806.FF141180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlankCynic... hee hee hee. -j -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net] Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:12 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: John Herman Howdy John, Pour yourself a cup of coffee, have a seat and welcome to the conversation. GRC is glass reinforced concrete but Grimer can explain the idea sorta crumbled. Pappajo engines evolved from the time when kids were searching for something better than rubber bands. Hydrinos are sorta like the story of the crazy aunt where one can make up their own scenario of what or who is actually in the basement making strange noises. Our esteemed leader-moderator has apparently grown fond of his collection of "persons" that populate the Vorts section of the asylum. Warning however, some are very good at playing poker with a pinocle deck. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C67806.FF141180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Cynic...  hee hee = hee.
 
-j
 
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Macaulay=20 [mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:12=20 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: John=20 Herman

Howdy John,
 
Pour yourself a cup of coffee, have a seat and welcome to the = conversation.=20 GRC is glass reinforced concrete but Grimer can explain the idea sorta = crumbled.=20 Pappajo engines evolved from the time  when kids were searching for = something better than rubber bands. Hydrinos are sorta like the story of = the=20 crazy aunt where one can make up their own scenario of what or who is = actually=20 in the basement making strange noises.
Our esteemed leader-moderator has apparently grown fond of his = collection=20 of "persons" that populate the Vorts section of the asylum. Warning = however,=20 some are very good at playing poker with a pinocle deck.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C67806.FF141180-- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C67806.FF0F5690 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <019240415@15052006-06ef> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C67806.FF0F5690-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:10:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FFAGOV023844; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:10:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FFAF1L023826; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:10:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:10:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: Home Power Hybrid Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:10:12 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Home Power Hybrid Thread-Index: AcZ4Man/8MZIkhF+SIefA4Nx1Kl9cA== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2006 15:10:13.0558 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA7B5D60:01C67831] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4FFADsB023797 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Home Power magazine ( June 06) did a nice analysis of a Ford hybrid vs non hybrid. The guy intends to keep it for ten years @ 20K miles a year. He projects coming out well ahead - and throws in a battery change in year 6. I'd still like to hear more evidence about superior gas mileage on highway driving , however. It's hard to understand the improvement in efficiency over a regular car in high gear and cruising. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:35:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FFZCWO007342; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:35:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FFZAqR007316; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:35:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:35:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c67833$ae9392d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Running on water? Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:24:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark, et al. This looks like "Magnegas, the sequel"... The Klein patent application is online: http://tinyurl.com/z6f6p or http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Klein.IN.&s2=water.AB.&OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water&RS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water First "red-flag" that pops-up pretty quickly is the co-inventor is Ruggero Santilli - of "Magnegas" fame - or infamy (depending on whether you are a previous investor, or target of his countersuits, or not). And, hey, aren't they the ones who had the big explosion - trying to prove you could store the gas? R. Santilli has been pushing this theme for many years, and maybe his new "partner" or whatever... has worked out some of the "bugs" of Magnegas ... ... or not. At least the timing is more opportune for an alternative. Klein and his new crop of investors probably did not want to advertise those little past problems and history, as apparently there are a few legal issues pending. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:44:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FFSaCh002912; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:28:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FFSPnY002802; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:28:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:28:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c67834$28c3c930$53037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Marketing realities Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:28:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6780A.3F6A6060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6780A.3F6A6060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6780A.3F6A6060" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6780A.3F6A6060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, One of the realities of marketing is that you can build almost anything = you can sell but you cannot always sell what you can build.=20 Story of the " world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a = convention for their entire worldwide organization. The leader addressed = the audience with the statements.. we make the best dog food, use the = choice ingredients, have the best can and label, spend the most on = advertizing, pay the best salaries..... my question is WHY DON'T IT = SELL??? Nobody would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid from Texas = sitting in the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make something the = dogs will eat and we can sell it without the fancy. The adage about building a better mousetrap and people will beat a = path to your door is hot air talking.=20 Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can build anything you = can sell. There may be ways to run engines on water but it will sit in the garage = until somebody can sell the idea. That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some = and somebody will build some. Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper Industries started back in the = Spindletop days early 1900's. A oil driller sent his hand into Houston = to get a blacksmith shop to build something he had sketched on a paper = bag. He told his hand not to come back without it . Cameron built it and = later had the blowout preventor that led the industry. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6780A.3F6A6060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
One of the realities of marketing is that you can build almost = anything you=20 can sell but you cannot always sell what you can build.
Story of the " world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a = convention=20 for their entire worldwide organization. The leader addressed the = audience with=20 the statements.. we make the best dog food, use the choice ingredients, = have the=20 best can and label, spend the most on advertizing, pay the best = salaries..... my=20 question is  WHY DON'T IT SELL???
 Nobody would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid = from=20 Texas sitting in the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make = something the=20 dogs will eat and we can sell it without the fancy.
 
  The adage about building a better mousetrap and people will = beat a=20 path to your door is hot air talking.
Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can build anything = you can=20 sell.

There may be ways to run engines on water but it will sit in the = garage until=20 somebody can sell the idea.

That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell = some and=20 somebody will build some.

Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper Industries started back in the = Spindletop=20 days early 1900's. A oil driller sent his hand into Houston to get a = blacksmith=20 shop to build something he had sketched on a paper bag. He told his hand = not to=20 come back without it . Cameron built it and later had the blowout = preventor that=20 led the industry.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6780A.3F6A6060-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6780A.3F6A6060 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c67834$2835ba00$53037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6780A.3F6A6060-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 08:56:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FFfPRO011968; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:41:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FFfLHK011897; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:41:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:41:09 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8464D1EE08294-126C-179E3@mblkn-m12.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Running on water? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.130 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4FFfGnF011791 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mark Goldes >From ZPEnergy.com    100 miles on 4 ounces of water?  Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 @ 23:09:41 PDT by rob    Science Anonymous writes: From KeelyNet news; 05/13/06 - 1994 Ford Escort gets 100 miles from 4 oz water  Denny Klein just patented his process of converting H2O to HHO, producing a gas that combines the atomic power of hydrogen with the chemical stability of water. <><><><><><> Here's his patent: http://geocities.com/terry1094/Klein_Electrolysis_Patent.pdf looks like plain old electrolysis to me. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 09:10:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FGARDD028943; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:10:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FG0HtY022741; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:00:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:00:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CEqv1X5001FtFe4nBcjjWeqZNmkrqE6Kuzi/s4k0h8CEqJCmjYONer7YgCWV14bi; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065115155959706@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Running on water? Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:59:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406fd533898cf2c37b658a1675a5e15d98350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.107 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Electrolyzer Design described looks almost identical to a Joe Cell. :-) > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: > Date: 5/15/2006 9:45:34 AM > Subject: Re: Running on water? > > Mark, et al. > > This looks like "Magnegas, the sequel"... > > The Klein patent application is online: > > http://tinyurl.com/z6f6p > > or > > http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2F netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Klein.IN.&s 2=water.AB.&OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water&RS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water > > First "red-flag" that pops-up pretty quickly is the co-inventor is > Ruggero Santilli - of "Magnegas" fame - or infamy (depending on > whether you are a previous investor, or target of his > countersuits, or not). And, hey, aren't they the ones who had the > big explosion - trying to prove you could store the gas? > > R. Santilli has been pushing this theme for many years, and maybe > his new "partner" or whatever... has worked out some of the "bugs" > of Magnegas ... > > ... or not. At least the timing is more opportune for an > alternative. Klein and his new crop of investors probably did not > want to advertise those little past problems and history, as > apparently there are a few legal issues pending. > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 09:16:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FGFhbf032116; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:15:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FGFeKt032080; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:24:02 -0400 From: Pteranodon Subject: Re: Lunar FE? In-reply-to: <8C84417D6EEED8B-CFC-5016@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakeside1.net Message-id: <200605171624.02293.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <8C84417D6EEED8B-CFC-5016@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 12 May 2006 16:14, hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > http://www.thothweb.com/article-3001--0-0.html Yep! Read that! Just loved that part in his article claiming that 'those little boxes that hang off of power poles everywhere...are capacitors'?! Hate to bust his bubble, but those are line transformers that break down the 7500 or so volts to 20,000 volts highlines to subscriber usable 220 and 110 volts in residential areas. Transformers are good for that as they don't consume signifigant power compared to other methods of lowering voltage of highlines to that usable for ordinary householders. Pteranodon ps, I know somebody will make a comment about unavoidable voltage drops in the windings, especially under loads greater than design, and that all transformers are rated at certain temperature rises for so much percentage of full load..... I really wanted to hear about usage of the solar power there being used to break down rocks for captured oxygen, hydrides, etc, but what seemed to come out was a pedantic mush known to every mean kid that ever fried ants on the sidewalk outside his house with a magnifying glass. And he DID say the Chinese ARE going there, so therefore we should also. An old flight similator ascribed an old fighter pilot's dictum to his students about situational awareness in a dogfight: "Don't become so concerned with winning the fight that you know you are in that you lose the fight that you do not know you are in!" We ARE in a fight with China over the Moon, and it is high time we admitted it or we will LOSE our place in the world, with all the penalties that go with it. Countries that lose their place in the world never regain it......Egypt.....Phoenicia.....Greece....Rome....Spain....England........... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 09:38:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FGc38A013473; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:38:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FGc0j6013430; Mon, 15 May 2006 09:38:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:38:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060515113331.03cd7d50@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:44:00 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >I'd still like to hear more evidence about superior gas mileage on >highway driving , however. It's hard to understand the improvement >in efficiency over a regular car in high gear and cruising. I do not know about the Ford hybrid. With the Prius, it depends upon speed. The other day I drove 40 miles on Atlanta highways when there was some congestion and speed was limited to 55 - 60 mph. My average came out at about 70 mpg, well above the 50 mpg highway rating. That seems to be ideal highway speed. The only better conditions are 35 - 45 nonstop country roads, where you can maintain 75 to 100 mpg for extended periods. At 75 mph or higher, gas mileage falls to 45 to 50 mpg, and the car is noisy. My guess is that the main savings on the highway compared to a regular car are from: 1. The regenerative "braking" going downhill. It is not really braking, just constant speed, but you can clearly see the battery recharge. 2. The incredibly efficient transmission design. 3. Like most modern cars, the Prius is aerodynamic and it is light but strong, especially compared to cars 30 years ago. However, the Prius exceeds today's standard. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 10:13:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FHDZjA002406; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:13:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FHDWoa002359; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:13:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:13:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060515171325998.F3B65B000086@mwinf3213.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060515171326.00b8ae20@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:13:26 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Lunar FE? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:24 pm 17/05/2006 -0400, Pteranodon wrote: > Countries that lose their place in the world never regain > it......Egypt.....Phoenicia.....Greece....Rome....Spain....England........... # There'll always be an England, While there's a country lane. Wherever there's a cottage small Beside a field of grain There'll always be an England While there's a busy street. Wherever there's a turning wheel A million marching feet. There'll always be an England And England shall be free If England means as much to you As England means to me. # Unfortunately, your point is proved, rather, by the pious hope I left out 8-( # Red, white and blue What does it mean to you? Surely you're proud Shout it loud Britons awake! The Empire too We can depend on you. Freedom remains These are the chains Nothing can break. # Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 10:25:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FHOsdq009324; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:24:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FHOqHh009298; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:24:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:24:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060515172448753.B7E231C0008B@mwinf3204.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060515172449.009bbf70@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:24:49 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: glass reinforced concrete Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:32 am 15/05/2006 -0500, Thomas wrote: > Frank Grimer posted >> I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like >> Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four >> sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced >> Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain >> capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous >> schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. > I'm curious about the failure of the GRC Frank. Why did it fail? > and how did you estimate the time before failure? It failed because it lost all its ductility by the end of 5 years and became as brittle as the unreinforced cement matrix. We knew the time to failure because we had done tests of 5 years duration and more. Basically the alkaline cement attacks the glass The chemists at BRS had developed a zirconium glass which was 10 times as resistant to attack as the traditional E glass used for plastics. But E glass GRC becomes brittle within 6 months. Why did the manufacturers go ahead when they knew the material would become brittle? - You just try and persuade a GLASS manufacturer that brittleness is not a good idea. Why didn't the BRS chemists abort? Well it was their baby and what do chemists know about the dangers of brittleness? Eventually it was the wetting and drying differential shrinkage which did the business. 8-) But you yanks know all about the danger of brittleness, eh! It's not for nothing NASA is known as "Need Another Seven Astronauts". As for the consultants, four lots were hired to tell them what they wanted to hear cos I refused the imprimatur of the BRS Structural Engineering Division - At a crisis meeting held on neutral territory half way between BRS and PB, the PB chairman screamed at me "I'll hound you Grimer - I'll hound you, I'll hound you..." when I wouldn't buckle - and then promptly broke down in tears). My Deputy Director, Cornelius said "I can't have you speaking to my staff like that Dr.B" and Dr.Evans suggested we adjourned. Apparently Dr.B asked our head chemist if I was a communist (I was wearing an astrakhan hat that winter). Gutt said, "On the contrary - he hates communism - he's a catholic." A new committee was formed a month later and much to my relief I was not invited. And so you can well understand my feelings of schadenfreude when 5 years later it all went up the Swannee. Fortunately PB were never allowed to make any structural members because years earlier I has spoken out of turn at a visit of the Director General of all the government environmental research labs and told him that we were in for a repeat of the high alumina cement debacle with GRC. Lyons wanted to close the whole thing down but was persuaded to allow non-structural members such as claddings. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 10:19:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FHJTE5006234; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:19:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FHJRVO006208; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:19:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=HyfxnoKrmnoqYHJY8FNyLPId93fblTF2TaMVmNJ5D3elI8r2NJ0qgjUt8I7YwGzKilHJy1Kdjh3VwhP7CbZog8lMeJZRKCA6zD30C7hyUXcRFchZcbzXpx30TGgdX5jut7f3p539CKZuxgx6c7+qVvvNPmNG6q7/JoAAeCvscB8= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060515130448.01e1c2e8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:11:13 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Marketing realities In-Reply-To: <000e01c67834$28c3c930$53037841@xptower> References: <000e01c67834$28c3c930$53037841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23575093==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_23575093==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some and somebody will build some. Well... Not quite. You have to "Make something the dogs will eat - at least a little..." and sell them. Then somebody will build some more. And more "dogs will eat". Then somebody will build some more. Then somebody will build some more... etc., etc. Look at the automobile industry. The biggest hurdle is to get cold fusion out of the talk-talk-fuss-fuss, stage and into the sell-sell stage. But there has to be "something the dogs will eat." (Not being insulting; it's simply a good metaphor.) P. At 10:28 AM 5/15/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Howdy Vorts, > >One of the realities of marketing is that you can build almost anything >you can sell but you cannot always sell what you can build. >Story of the " world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a convention >for their entire worldwide organization. The leader addressed the audience >with the statements.. we make the best dog food, use the choice >ingredients, have the best can and label, spend the most on advertizing, >pay the best salaries..... my question is WHY DON'T IT SELL??? > Nobody would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid from Texas > sitting in the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make something the > dogs will eat and we can sell it without the fancy. > > The adage about building a better mousetrap and people will beat a path > to your door is hot air talking. >Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can build anything you can >sell. > >There may be ways to run engines on water but it will sit in the garage >until somebody can sell the idea. > >That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some >and somebody will build some. > >Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper Industries started back in the >Spindletop days early 1900's. A oil driller sent his hand into Houston to >get a blacksmith shop to build something he had sketched on a paper bag. >He told his hand not to come back without it . Cameron built it and later >had the blowout preventor that led the industry. > >Richard > --=====================_23575093==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some and somebody will build some.

Well... Not quite.  You have to "Make something the dogs will eat - at least a little..." and sell them.  Then somebody will build some more.  And more "dogs will eat". Then somebody will build some more.  Then somebody will build some more... etc., etc.  Look at the automobile industry.

The biggest hurdle is to get cold fusion out of the talk-talk-fuss-fuss, stage and into the sell-sell stage.  But there has to be "something the dogs will eat."  (Not being insulting; it's simply a good metaphor.)

P.




At 10:28 AM 5/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:
Howdy Vorts,
 
One of the realities of marketing is that you can build almost anything you can sell but you cannot always sell what you can build.
Story of the " world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a convention for their entire worldwide organization. The leader addressed the audience with the statements.. we make the best dog food, use the choice ingredients, have the best can and label, spend the most on advertizing, pay the best salaries..... my question is  WHY DON'T IT SELL???
 Nobody would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid from Texas sitting in the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make something the dogs will eat and we can sell it without the fancy.
 
  The adage about building a better mousetrap and people will beat a path to your door is hot air talking.
Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can build anything you can sell.

There may be ways to run engines on water but it will sit in the garage until somebody can sell the idea.

That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some and somebody will build some.

Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper Industries started back in the Spindletop days early 1900's. A oil driller sent his hand into Houston to get a blacksmith shop to build something he had sketched on a paper bag. He told his hand not to come back without it . Cameron built it and later had the blowout preventor that led the industry.

Richard


--=====================_23575093==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 12:45:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FJjIxh025863; Mon, 15 May 2006 12:45:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FJjGfI025851; Mon, 15 May 2006 12:45:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:45:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c67858$1010cef0$53037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <000e01c67834$28c3c930$53037841@xptower> <6.1.1.1.1.20060515130448.01e1c2e8@pop> Subject: Re: Marketing realities Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6782E.269D4E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <_NkvuC.A.1TG.LpNaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6782E.269D4E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yum!! Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Philip Winestone=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Marketing realities That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell = some and somebody will build some. Well... Not quite. You have to "Make something the dogs will eat - at = least a little..." and sell them. Then somebody will build some more. = And more "dogs will eat". Then somebody will build some more. Then = somebody will build some more... etc., etc. Look at the automobile = industry. The biggest hurdle is to get cold fusion out of the = talk-talk-fuss-fuss, stage and into the sell-sell stage. But there has = to be "something the dogs will eat." (Not being insulting; it's simply = a good metaphor.) P. At 10:28 AM 5/15/2006 -0500, you wrote: Howdy Vorts, =20 One of the realities of marketing is that you can build almost = anything you can sell but you cannot always sell what you can build.=20 Story of the " world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a = convention for their entire worldwide organization. The leader addressed = the audience with the statements.. we make the best dog food, use the = choice ingredients, have the best can and label, spend the most on = advertizing, pay the best salaries..... my question is WHY DON'T IT = SELL??? Nobody would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid from = Texas sitting in the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make = something the dogs will eat and we can sell it without the fancy. =20 The adage about building a better mousetrap and people will beat a = path to your door is hot air talking.=20 Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can build anything = you can sell. There may be ways to run engines on water but it will sit in the = garage until somebody can sell the idea. That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell = some and somebody will build some. Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper Industries started back in the = Spindletop days early 1900's. A oil driller sent his hand into Houston = to get a blacksmith shop to build something he had sketched on a paper = bag. He told his hand not to come back without it . Cameron built it and = later had the blowout preventor that led the industry. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6782E.269D4E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yum!!
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Philip Winestone =
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 = 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Marketing = realities


That folks , is the real problem hindering the = advance=20 of CF.. sell some and somebody will build some.

Well... Not = quite.  You have to "Make something the dogs will eat - at least = a=20 little..." and sell them.  Then somebody will build some = more.  And=20 more "dogs will eat". Then somebody will build some more.  Then = somebody=20 will build some more... etc., etc.  Look at the automobile=20 industry.

The biggest hurdle is to get cold fusion out of the=20 talk-talk-fuss-fuss, stage and into the sell-sell stage.  But = there has=20 to be "something the dogs will eat."  (Not being insulting; it's = simply a=20 good metaphor.)

P.




At 10:28 AM 5/15/2006 = -0500, you=20 wrote:
Howdy = Vorts,
 
One of=20 the realities of marketing is that you can build almost anything you = can=20 sell but you cannot always sell what you can build.
Story of the = "=20 world's best dog food manufacturer". They held a convention for = their entire=20 worldwide organization. The leader addressed the audience with the=20 statements.. we make the best dog food, use the choice ingredients, = have the=20 best can and label, spend the most on advertizing, pay the best=20 salaries..... my question is  WHY DON'T IT = SELL???
 Nobody=20 would speak up even under prompting... finally a kid from Texas = sitting in=20 the back shouted.. THE DOGS WONT EAT IT!!. Make something the dogs = will eat=20 and we can sell it without the fancy.
 
  The adage = about=20 building a better mousetrap and people will beat a path to your door = is hot=20 air talking.
Show me a person that can sell mousetraps and I can = build=20 anything you can sell.

There may be ways to run engines on = water but=20 it will sit in the garage until somebody can sell the = idea.

That=20 folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of CF.. sell some = and=20 somebody will build some.

Cameron Iron Works div. of Cooper=20 Industries started back in the Spindletop days early 1900's. A oil = driller=20 sent his hand into Houston to get a blacksmith shop to build = something he=20 had sketched on a paper bag. He told his hand not to come back = without it .=20 Cameron built it and later had the blowout preventor that led the=20 = industry.

Richard


------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6782E.269D4E70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:15:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FKFhd6009200; Mon, 15 May 2006 13:15:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FKFgMP009183; Mon, 15 May 2006 13:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:15:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,130,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1105785474:sNHT17382344" Message-ID: <1445101878.1147724138195.JavaMail.root@fepweb01> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:15:38 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: (doo doo / vu du) - Formally: Marketing realities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip sez: >> That folks , is the real problem hindering the advance of >> CF.. sell some and somebody will build some. > > Well... Not quite. You have to "Make something the dogs > will eat - at least a little..." and sell them. Then > somebody will build some more. And more "dogs will eat". ... I dunno about the market strategies of CF, but on the subject of good and not-so-good dawg food. If Fido becomes hungry enough he'll eat anything. I wouldn't recommend holding out on K9 however, especially if he knows your intentionally attempting to perform behavior mod on his eating preferences. They are more than capable of leaving political statements, and guess who gets to clean up the fallout. Oh...me make naughty doo-doo pun. Bad, boy! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 13:24:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FKORO7014670; Mon, 15 May 2006 13:24:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FKOQ6Y014645; Mon, 15 May 2006 13:24:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:24:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Lunar FE? Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:24:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67833.A1D47B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67833.A1D47B40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01C67833.A1D47B40" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C67833.A1D47B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Pteranondon, Shucks, telling the difference between a line transformer and a line = capacitor is easy. Just disconnect them and touch your tongue to the one = you suspect is a capacitor. You will become enlightened. England, Merry ole England! They get the blame for upgrading the Greek = language to a modern form useful in politics, Shakespearian dramas, law, = science and cussing. insurance, banking, world trade, computing and = aviation just to name a few. First language spoken on the moon was English. If the world is gonna = play catchup, they better learn English.=20 How did so few accomplish so much ? Answer.. a moral code of ethics. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C67833.A1D47B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Pteranondon,
 
Shucks, telling the difference between a line transformer and = a  line=20 capacitor is easy. Just disconnect them and touch your tongue to the one = you=20 suspect is a capacitor. You will become enlightened.
 
England, Merry ole England! They get the blame for upgrading the = Greek=20 language to a modern form useful in politics, Shakespearian dramas, law, = science=20 and cussing. insurance, banking, world trade, computing and aviation = just to=20 name a few.
 
 First language spoken on the moon was English. If the world = is gonna=20 play catchup, they better learn English.
How did so few accomplish so much ? Answer.. a moral code of = ethics.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C67833.A1D47B40-- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67833.A1D47B40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001c01c6785d$8aa2e220$53037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C67833.A1D47B40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:24:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FLOKEG013784; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:24:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FLOHWW013741; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008001c67865$e9d02480$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: Poli-Sci 101 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:24:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <8PAYTB.A.nWD.AGPaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Most of this post went out yesterday, a day of moral reckoning, so-to-speak, but must have gotten lost in Sunday-cyber-space. Apologies if it turns up at a latter date... ...perhaps it was a carnivore-canapé.... I probably would not even have realized it didn't get posted to Vo (yes it's that earth-shaking) except for reading Richard's comment about morality just now. Actually that comment was more like a reminiscence of better days - as the USA/England have - in the last 5 years - managed to totally eradicate any evidence for a moral superiority over the rest of the world (if indeed we have enjoyed it all since 1945). Even Germany managed to take the high-road in the Middle East, when we succumbed to blood-lust; and the worst part is that most of our abject-immorality in carrying out a brain-dead oil-war (under false pretenses) was aided and abetted by the Religious Right (many of the very same hypocrites who once called themselves the moral majority). These Bible-thumpers now have the blood of thousands of innocent non-combatants on their hands. To their credit, many of them have belatedly realized how they were duped by the Neo-Cons, and many will hopefully stay out of the political arena next time around. This week's lesson in Poli-Sci 101 is not that kind of finger-pointing recrimination - exactly - but a closer look at "excuses" in general and "computer simulations" (aka "Sims) as they relate to phoney-baloney trial-runs. Spin Doctors, PACs and Ambulance-chasers alike, are keeping a close watch on unfolding events in Houston this week, as the final results of that lying-contest may be the key to many things relating to morality in the USA ... and to at least some very large future legal fees, if the verdict indicates a viable tactic for the upcoming case - you know, the one before the World Court (The International Court of Justice). Ken Lay is betting his future accommodations on the "Doofus Defense" and if it works, as experts say it that it "just might" for this homie-hero, then it's a "slam dunk" that an old-pal (who says he 'hardly knew Ken') will be emboldened to do the same in the Hague (Netherlands) in '09 or sooner - when his turn comes up. "Heck" says W, "I've known - oops - make that 'heard-about' Ken since my days in Austin (flashing a hook-'em-horns hand-sign), and he's a lot smarter than me." Dick is not buying the defense, however, as he is just way too pragmatic for that. The trusty quail-hunting pump-action is more likely to be in his future, if it gets that far. And he won't miss this time. Ken Lay, with a totally straight face, told the Jury that he didn't believe the Wall Street Journal when it sent a list of detailed specific questions about the crooked partnerships and hidden corporations - to his attention at Enron in 2001. Those questions, by the way, were sent from the WSJ at the request of Enron's B.of D. At the time, Lay told other Enron executives that he believed the paper had a "hate-on" for Enron... OK, actually he used a different "H" word, but he doesn't want to further enflame any of the female jurors... As... one can never be sure that those large cash payments from Berne (for the "jury consultant") got into the open-hands which they were supposed to. The old Gene Hackman ploy. As a result of the mountain of circumstantial evidence against him, Lay claims that he couldn't possibly have put the pieces of the puzzle together, since they were out to get him, and "I had no real reason to believe that anyone at Enron was involved in anything inappropriate," he beams to half-asleep "peers"... Ah, yes, the vaunted Doofus Defense. The bigger the lie, the better - as it only shows how Doofus you really are. And there is no lie any bigger than WMDs (except maybe the avian flu pandemic). The company (or Nation) is falling apart before one's eyes, amid allegations of executive perks and croneys profiting from secret side deals, or semi-official leaks (Plame-gate)... not to mention disaster funds converted into Euros going into Swiss accounts (for safekeeping) - but there'd be no reason... really... for the chief executive to ask any probing questions. After all, the interior decorator is coming by this afternoon to discus the remodel of the Aspen mansion, the Crawford billiard room, or whatever. On the off-chance that the Doofus-Defense doesn't work out, however ... what's a poor country boy to do? Spin Doctors everywhere want-to-know, and a big consulting fee for the right answer is probably available.... Lots of from the Nawlins pork-barrel-pickins are yet to be allotted. To that end, I am forwarding to Karl's attention - the next best Roving defense on the planet, for these assorted damning facts, which is to be called, with nary-a-grin, the "faulty sim" defense. In that giant computer on Valis, as it were, it looks as if the Cheney/Rummy avatars got corrupted by some sneaky Trojan malware applet - which was piggy-backing on the old Nazi downloaded documents (worse than porn for 'bugs') That's how it happened, honest. Is this faulty-sim defense a slam-dunk-tenet, or what? And don't forget, this is all on the Q-T - a need-to-know, and zero-leak, basis; but for the matrix-maniacs amongst us, the back-story can be found here: http://www.simulation-argument.com/ Signed, Harry Tuttle official C.S. programmer and reformed Trojan-planter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:48:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FLmKRL026616; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:48:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FLmJ4m026593; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:48:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:48:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:47:43 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: the aluminium batery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7A9mdD.A.ZfG.icPaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Coviello posted; I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this. I read the company's prospectus. It's not just that the aluminum is light and cheap, according to their graph, the proposed battery stores way more energy per kilogram-. Another consideration is how many cycles the battery can go through before it needs to be re manufactured. IMHO, it is this factor which economically kills a hybrid. I don't recall this matter being addressed --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:49:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FLn7n7027108; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FLn4Wu027055; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4468F732.6040408@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:48:34 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: physics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Don Weigel posted American military was pursuing new types of exotic bombs -- including a new class of isomeric gamma ray weapons. Unlike conventional atomic and hydrogen bombs, the new weapons would trigger the release of energy by absorbing radiation, and respond by re-emitting a far more powerful radiation. In this potential category of gamma-ray weapons, a nuclear isomer absorbs x-rays and re-emits higher frequency gamma rays. The emitted gamma radiation has been reported to release 60 times the energy of the x-rays that trigger the effect. A 60 times greater energy out than in sounds like F E to me, it also sounds too good to be true. Perhaps what is meant is that the photons produced have 60 times the energy of the photons that produced them, does anybody know? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:49:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FLnL1J027254; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FLnJPo027220; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060515174506.03e49710@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:49:10 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Lunar FE? In-Reply-To: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> References: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > First language spoken on the moon was English. If the world is > gonna play catchup, they better learn English. I presume you mean "play ketchup" (or "catsup") -- a reference to English (or "British") cooking, no doubt. This would resemble the late Steve Allen's classic skit in which he "played meat" more or less the way other people play bongo drums. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 15:26:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FMQ60n013353; Mon, 15 May 2006 15:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FMQ3rV013321; Mon, 15 May 2006 15:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060515222600418.663056400081@mwinf3109.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060515222600.00b91658@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:26:00 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OT: Poli-Sci 101 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:24 pm 15/05/2006 -0700, Jones Chamberlain Beene wrote (inter alia): > I probably would not even have realized it didn't get posted to Vo > (yes it's that earth-shaking) except for reading Richard's comment > about morality just now. Actually that comment was more like a > reminiscence of better days - as the USA/England have - in the > last 5 years - managed to totally eradicate any evidence for a > moral superiority over the rest of the world (if indeed we have > enjoyed it all since 1945). I wish we'd had Blair in 1938 instead of your namesake who came back from Germany waving his little piece of paper and proclaiming: ============================================ "My good friends this is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honor. I believe it is peace in our time." ============================================ I venture to suggest that if you'd suffered the London Blitz (as I did) then you might think that a pre-emptive strike against that evil bastard, Saddam Hussein, was a jolly good idea. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 15:35:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FMZ0bV018020; Mon, 15 May 2006 15:35:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FMYwYZ017986; Mon, 15 May 2006 15:34:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:34:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <033f01c6786f$f5343460$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Hybrid Car Idea Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:36:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_033C_01C6784E.6DF542D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupport.net-MailScanner-From: johnwc@patmedia.net X-Spam-Status: No Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_033C_01C6784E.6DF542D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had an idea for a hybrid car today. How about putting one of those = comact wind turbines on the roof of a car, not the big ones with blades, = the one with a rotating wind turbine that looks like a cone. Then as = the car moves along it can generate electricity from the wind to charge = the batteries. I know it would not be a net energy generator or = anything like that, but it could extend battery range pretty = significantly. Has anyone tried this? ------=_NextPart_000_033C_01C6784E.6DF542D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had an idea for a hybrid car = today.  How=20 about putting one of those comact wind turbines on the roof of a car, = not the=20 big ones with blades, the one with a rotating wind turbine that looks = like a=20 cone.  Then as the car moves along it can generate electricity from = the=20 wind to charge the batteries.  I know it would not be a net energy=20 generator or anything like that, but it could extend battery range = pretty=20 significantly.  Has anyone tried this?
------=_NextPart_000_033C_01C6784E.6DF542D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 19:24:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G2OXZD004265; Mon, 15 May 2006 19:24:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G2OUFm004204; Mon, 15 May 2006 19:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:24:34 -0400 From: Pteranodon Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Idea In-reply-to: <033f01c6786f$f5343460$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakeside1.net Message-id: <200605152224.34534.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <033f01c6786f$f5343460$a4b1e118@D54BYG11> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <8aEKZD.A.eBB.dfTaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 15 May 2006 18:36, John Coviello wrote: > I had an idea for a hybrid car today. How about putting one of those > comact wind turbines on the roof of a car, not the big ones with blades, > the one with a rotating wind turbine that looks like a cone. Then as the > car moves along it can generate electricity from the wind to charge the > batteries. I know it would not be a net energy generator or anything like > that, but it could extend battery range pretty significantly. Has anyone > tried this? Outside of becoming known in your area as a 'conehead', you will gain little or no benefit from your enterprise. What little energy you gained from the generator would be more than compensated for in static and kinematic fluid friction and drag losses as you travelled 'down the road', not to mention electrodynamic inefficiencies and old fashioned mechanical friction. But some of us have the dream of running down the road with propellers on our heads hoping to fly. Even this writer had the same dream. As a six year old, I imagined that I could take the family bathtub and put it into a lake and travel all over simply by connecting the tub drain to the overflow drain hole from the front with a funnel out the back for the 'thrusting water to gush out driving me forward'. The idea of water seeking its static level sometimes does'nt come natural to a six year old with dreams of perpetual motion machines. Clearly the best idea is to use nuclear power extensively, like France. Nuclear power can desalinate water, solving water supply problems. Nuclear power can separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. Release the oxygen into the air and sell the hydrogen as fuel........everywhere. Just burning the hydrogen in a 'fresh air Otto cycle internal combustion engine would be a horrendous waste, but a fuel cell based on hydrogen would work beautiful as a power source for personal automobile transportation. Pteranodon From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 20:18:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G3ICPh001649; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:18:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G3IA2U001628; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:18:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:18:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c67897$56c56650$96027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:OT: Poli-Sci 101 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:18:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6786D.6D551A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6786D.6D551A20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C6786D.6D56A0C0" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C6786D.6D56A0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote... >Spin Doctors, PACs and Ambulance-chasers alike, are keeping a=20 >close watch on unfolding events in Houston this week, as the final=20 >results of that lying-contest may be the key to many things=20 >relating to morality in the USA .. Howdy Jones.. Welcome to Houston where politics and lawyering at the courthouse = outdraw the opera at Jones Hall. It has got to the point where I get the = playrights mixed and the plots confused.=20 Seems as there once was a very well run gas distribution company taken = over by a guy . During the Savings and Loan ups and downs during the = Reagan years a new form of 7 card poker was invented where everybody = won hands down. Looting an S&L was considered a fun sport as long as = you had a fall guy to take the dive. One of our future mayors that knew = how the game was played and dumped the S&L on the Gas company and the = guy running the Gas company dumped on the next guy after raking in the = next pot. The last guy got the donkey's tail pinned on his backside but = being among other things a lawyer, knew how the game was played. It took = him 12 some years battling the Feds to finally rake in the pot. You may = recognize some of the poker players in the game... Ken Lay, Bob Lanier, = Horwitz. Horwitz went on to greater things like Kaiser Corp and Pacific = Redwoods .. Now he is running the local racetrack. How a company with = the assets of Enron could lose money baffles me. You could steal the = thing blind and still make money. Ken Lay is like the guy that got 7 = chances to hit the floor with his hat and missed all 7. The worse = punishment would be to laugh him out of town. These guys cut their teeth in Houston and the courthouse is their = stage... watch 'em walk .. if not this round , the next. Nowhere but Texas.. Where is Sam Rayburn and Cactus Jack Garner when we = need 'em? There is one product of Houston that has always been my hero.. Jesse = Jones.. Rose to greatness. Character and integrity were his attributes. = Roosevelt called him to Washington during the depression to save the = nation's financial system. Read the story of this remarkable man. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C6786D.6D56A0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote...
 
>Spin Doctors, PACs and Ambulance-chasers alike, are keeping a=20
>close watch on unfolding events in Houston this week, as the = final=20
>results of that lying-contest may be the key to many things=20
>relating to morality in the USA ..
 
Howdy Jones..
 
Welcome to Houston where  politics and lawyering at the = courthouse=20 outdraw the opera at Jones Hall. It has got to the point where I get the = playrights mixed and the plots confused.
Seems as there once was a very well run gas distribution = company taken=20 over by a guy . During the Savings and Loan ups and downs during = the Reagan=20 years a new form of  7 card poker was invented where everybody won = hands=20 down.  Looting an S&L was considered a fun sport as long as you = had a=20 fall guy to take the dive. One of our future mayors that knew how the = game was=20 played and dumped the S&L on the Gas company and the guy running the = Gas=20 company dumped on the next guy after raking in the next pot. The last = guy got=20 the donkey's tail pinned on his backside but being among other things a = lawyer,=20 knew how the game was played. It took him 12 some years battling the = Feds to=20 finally rake in the pot. You may recognize some of the poker players in = the=20 game... Ken Lay, Bob Lanier, Horwitz. Horwitz went on to greater things = like=20 Kaiser Corp and Pacific Redwoods .. Now he is running the local = racetrack. How a=20 company with the assets of Enron could lose money baffles me. You could = steal=20 the thing blind and still make money. Ken Lay is like the guy that got 7 = chances=20 to hit the floor with his hat and missed all 7. The worse punishment = would be to=20 laugh him out of town.
 
These guys cut their teeth in Houston and the courthouse is their = stage...=20 watch 'em walk .. if not this round , the next.
 
Nowhere but Texas.. Where is Sam Rayburn and Cactus Jack Garner = when we=20 need 'em?
 
There is one product of Houston that has always been my hero.. = Jesse=20 Jones.. Rose to greatness. Character and integrity were his = attributes.=20 Roosevelt  called him to Washington during the depression to save = the=20 nation's financial system. Read the story of this remarkable man.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C6786D.6D56A0C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6786D.6D551A20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c67897$5601c830$96027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6786D.6D551A20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 20:38:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G3cAO4013186; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:38:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G3c8fM013176; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:38:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:38:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <47ii62t0mipmrgfa2g1pu04e6somkct61m@4ax.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC9B6@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCC9B6@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 03:38:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G3c3NB013125 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 08:37:30 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > > > > >The thing to analyze is the efficiency. 20% for the Euro device is a bit painful. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also "a bit painful", but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 20:47:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G3lHES018089; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:47:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G3lF9Y018067; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:47:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:47:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Cell Variant? Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:47:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0mii6291uf99p8trpdeduht10ltvfs9gvr@4ax.com> References: <8C83DA33764262F-1B5C-7DC@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> <44683AE2.6080901@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <44683AE2.6080901@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 03:47:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G3lAUA017994 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 18:25:06 +1000: Hi, [snip] >Its defiantly not joecell the fuel in a joecell is a cold plasma not >liquids. the extra energy in a joecell is because the plasma is H+ and >O+, no outer electrons so it wont burn until the plasma can steal >electrons from some thing in the carbuater. [snip] There are plenty of electrons available from any metal surface, so this explanation is extremely unlikely. (The Joe cell itself being made of metal). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 20:54:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G3sIZv021964; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:54:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G3sFwf021909; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:54:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Running on water? Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:54:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7qii62d87vfugpmavj5m7kddeh13b929io@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 03:54:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G3sA5n021818 Resent-Message-ID: <_OLyIB.A.AWF.mzUaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 07:17:45 -0700: Hi, [snip] >unlike such a tip when oxy-acetylene is burned for welding. But the instant >he sets the flame on a charcoal briquette, it glows bright orange. Then, >within seconds, he burns a hole through a brick, cuts steel and melts >Tungsten. It does NOT melt tungsten. It causes the oxide to sublimate. When the so called "melting" takes place, no droplet of liquid metal forms. The metal simply disappears as it "evaporates". >The temperature of the flame is 259 degrees Fahrenheit. ...and just how was that measured? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:21:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G4LXJR001961; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:21:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G4LVb0001942; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:21:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lunar FE? Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:21:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 04:21:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G4LRN7001916 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 15:24:17 -0500: Hi, [snip] >How did so few accomplish so much ? Answer.. a moral code of ethics. [snip] No, by conquest. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:44:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G4ifJu011298; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:44:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G4ie5E011279; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:44:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:44:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: physics Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:44:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4468F732.6040408@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4468F732.6040408@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 04:44:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G4ib4h011255 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 16:48:34 -0500: Hi, [snip] >A 60 times greater energy out than in sounds like F E to me, it also >sounds too good to be true. Perhaps what is meant is that the photons >produced have 60 times the energy of the photons that produced them, >does anybody know? [snip] The latter was supposed to be the case, the isotope is Hf-178. However AFAIK it hasn't been replicated, so is likely not true anyway. It is supposed to work by absorbing an x-ray that lifted the nucleus from the initial energy level to a higher level. Decay from the initial level is forbidden, but not from the higher level. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:46:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G4kaES012026; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:46:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G4kYCE012001; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:46:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the aluminium batery Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:46:32 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 04:46:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G4kVM0011965 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 16:47:43 -0500: Hi, [snip] >way more energy per kilogram-. Another consideration is how many cycles >the battery can go through before it needs to be re manufactured. IMHO, >it is this factor which economically kills a hybrid. I don't recall this >matter being addressed [snip] Indeed. According to their web site the theoretical number of recharge cycles is 3000, but that clearly remains to be seen, considering that they haven't yet built a prototype. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 21:53:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G4rDo6015258; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:53:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G4rA3E015229; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:53:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Electromotive Series & The Metal-Water Interface Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:53:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1jmi62hmtojd3kpve1vpnuaht5i4ehs2gr@4ax.com> References: <410-2200651157458402@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200651157458402@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 May 2006 04:53:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4G4r3oG015167 Resent-Message-ID: <-l0w-C.A.vtD.2qVaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 01:45:08 -0600: Hi, [snip] >The Autoionization of Water and the Joe Cell self-electrolysis >becomes less of a miracle, doesn't it? > >http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/e/l/electromotive%20series/source.html This still doesn't explain how the active agent can pass through Al to enter the carburetor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 23:45:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G6jFxG029055; Mon, 15 May 2006 23:45:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G6jDZZ029032; Mon, 15 May 2006 23:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:45:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=D3qfpHHzyijXfXMglZfmRV0paUjeYGvhMCz38Lxnu6h1bSHma86dTS8puJAoogYxZZgkGoYeISyesaMlkiKhDlOK7s5/ihkRHAQQlIvh8hDMRftqlX2Ow1i2isegXsju2ciGsInLalvLL1gpRm5PckjmmdDKwfGdbRiKncgGbjY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 02:45:12 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the aluminium batery In-Reply-To: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_68062_10081881.1147761912009" References: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_68062_10081881.1147761912009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline NB: [1] aluminum is a great example of a light metal alkali. [2] as exhausted the result will be aluminum oxide [3] to reduce the oxide to the active metal will require work .hence... aluminum appears to be viable candidate... if reduction to metal can be made cost effective. Q: can any Vo let us know how much energy in the form of heat and electric current is needed to reduce aluminum? Presume the Hall process is used, please. Q: More specifically how much energy as Electric current ...AND how muc= h as HEAT is required with the Hall fused salts aluminum process? You are gracious persons to consider the question. Herma On 5/15/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > John Coviello posted; > > I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of > capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very > warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume > that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. > We'll see if anything comes of this. > > I read the company's prospectus. It's not just that the aluminum is > light and cheap, according to their graph, the proposed battery stores > way more energy per kilogram-. Another consideration is how many cycles > the battery can go through before it needs to be re manufactured. IMHO, > it is this factor which economically kills a hybrid. I don't recall this > matter being addressed > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_68062_10081881.1147761912009 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
NB:
 
[1]  aluminum is a great example of a light metal alkali.
[2]&= nbsp; as exhausted the result will be aluminum oxide
[3]  to reduce the oxide to the active metal will require work
      .hence...
  aluminum appears to be viable candidate... if reduction to meta= l can be made cost effective.
 
  Q:  can any Vo let us know how much energy in the form of = heat and electric current is needed to reduce aluminum?
 
    Presume the Hall process is used, please.
 
   Q:  More specifically how much energy as Electric cu= rrent ...AND how much as HEAT is required with the Hall fused salts aluminu= m process?
 
      You are gracious persons to consider th= e question.
 
           &nbs= p; Herma
 
On 5/15/06, = thomas malloy <temalloy@usf= amily.net> wrote:
John Coviello posted;

I'l= l have to read up on this company and technology.  The claims of<= br>capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very
warranted.  If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I w= ould assume
that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rathe= r cheap.
We'll see if anything comes of this.

I read the company'= s prospectus. It's not just that the aluminum is
light and cheap, according to their graph, the proposed battery stores<= br>way more energy per kilogram-. Another consideration is how many cycles<= br>the battery can go through before it needs to be re manufactured. IMHO,
it is this factor which economically kills a hybrid. I don't recall thi= s
matter being addressed



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

<= /div>
------=_Part_68062_10081881.1147761912009-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 01:49:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4G8mr3T019176; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:48:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G8mkdt019150; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:48:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09b301c678c5$89bf8bc0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <4468F6FF.7010807@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: the aluminium batery Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:48:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 2 Al2O3(c,alumina,alpha) -> 3 O2(g) + 4 Al(c) - 3351.4 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. Equilibrium at about 5073°C. I copy-pasted the above from the output of a spreadsheet I have made to work out any thermochemistry problem (maybe our host would consider uploading it to his website, I tried to post it to the list it didn't make it, probably because the list doesn't like attachments) Thats' 31 kJ per g of Al. The kind of energy used (thermal, electrical) doesn't matter for energy balance of the reaction itself (enthalpy is a state variable) but of course you must take into account efficiency of power supply etc for particular process, which I wouldn't know. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "john herman" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:45 AM Subject: Re: the aluminium batery NB: [1] aluminum is a great example of a light metal alkali. [2] as exhausted the result will be aluminum oxide [3] to reduce the oxide to the active metal will require work .hence... aluminum appears to be viable candidate... if reduction to metal can be made cost effective. Q: can any Vo let us know how much energy in the form of heat and electric current is needed to reduce aluminum? Presume the Hall process is used, please. Q: More specifically how much energy as Electric current ...AND how much as HEAT is required with the Hall fused salts aluminum process? You are gracious persons to consider the question. Herma On 5/15/06, thomas malloy wrote: > > John Coviello posted; > > I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of > capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very > warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume > that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. > We'll see if anything comes of this. > > I read the company's prospectus. It's not just that the aluminum is > light and cheap, according to their graph, the proposed battery stores > way more energy per kilogram-. Another consideration is how many cycles > the battery can go through before it needs to be re manufactured. IMHO, > it is this factor which economically kills a hybrid. I don't recall this > matter being addressed > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 04:59:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GBx4HI004306; Tue, 16 May 2006 04:59:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GBx2Tm004287; Tue, 16 May 2006 04:59:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 04:59:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DC6jEaplgD7KwoR/XI9L/sbipYi1DoSb9/7+yMMqtoiMx/jjWvIqIt3dRmmJu54G; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065216115851480@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 05:58:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403351c653b920339d1f1d6675c794f6cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.4 Resent-Message-ID: <6ePi1B.A.7CB.F6baEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water interface is 500 million volts per meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation " The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current. For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E "The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence" Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission: http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html "Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface" Surface dipole "In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential" "The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can increase or decrease the work function." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water
interface is 500 million volts per meter.
 
 
" The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current.
 

For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density :

J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E

"The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence"

Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission:

http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html

http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html

"Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface"

Surface dipole

"In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency).  The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer.  This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential" 

"The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations.   The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid.  The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps.   Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the crystal.  For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively.  The work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added during adsorption of gases on the surface.   These additional dipoles can increase or decrease the work function."

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 05:57:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GCvm59003792; Tue, 16 May 2006 05:57:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GCvlaf003773; Tue, 16 May 2006 05:57:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 05:57:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c678e8$4fe1ed30$d1027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface... Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:57:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C678BE.6626B550"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C678BE.6626B550 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C678BE.66283BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C678BE.66283BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Fred.. An example of the effect can be seen by rubbing a piece of amber over = wool. Or, in Odessa Texas where it is dry, dry, one can walk across a = wool carpet in leather shoes and touch a metal doorknob. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C678BE.66283BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Fred..
 
An example of the effect can be seen by rubbing a piece of amber = over wool.=20 Or, in Odessa Texas where it is dry, dry, one can walk across a wool = carpet in=20 leather shoes and touch a metal doorknob.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C678BE.66283BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C678BE.6626B550 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c678e8$4eebf470$d1027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C678BE.6626B550-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 06:13:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GDDbIH012555; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:13:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GDDa6E012549; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:13:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 06:13:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d6601c678ea$8b1fb830$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <000a01c678e8$4fe1ed30$d1027841@xptower> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface... Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:13:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Electric shock to revive the mosquito trapped in the amber Richard ? ;) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "RC Macaulay" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface... BlankHowdy Fred.. An example of the effect can be seen by rubbing a piece of amber over wool. Or, in Odessa Texas where it is dry, dry, one can walk across a wool carpet in leather shoes and touch a metal doorknob. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 06:24:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GDNxEW018196; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GDNvn6018175; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 06:23:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: Betteries Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:23:52 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCF9C@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Betteries Thread-Index: AcZ4mjj93AxK4S54SVCpmYsRr9iPvwAUV1qA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2006 13:23:55.0326 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB2C25E0:01C678EB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4GDNseb018132 Resent-Message-ID: <98rHIB.A.2bE.sJdaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: True, but in this case we are storing the best form of energy, electricity as opposed to a car engine. You might need cheaper electricity to make this gadget more than a marginal improvement over what we're stuck with now. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also "a bit painful", but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 06:32:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GDWPma022640; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:32:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GDWNos022600; Tue, 16 May 2006 06:32:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 06:32:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d7b01c678ed$2aef0e90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220065216115851480@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:32:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the quotes are interesting! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc >A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water > interface is 500 million volts per meter. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation > > " The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, > work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two > parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for > total current. > > For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : > J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E > "The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared > multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the > second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third > factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence" > Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for > Thermionic Emission: > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html > "Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid > (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this > jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the > electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes > refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a > uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface" > Surface dipole > "In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the > surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite > wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron > density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries > to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a > maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the > electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a > deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. > This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the > surface and produces a step in the surface potential" > "The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the > electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density > (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by > electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential > evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic > potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness > of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. > Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi > energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the > crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV > and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The > work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added > during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can > increase or decrease the work function." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 07:55:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GEsmTn010607; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GEskfe010593; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:54:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Jl1Va3L/ODGGqlFbNo78btIynohy/0bDTMXxc1nJ3hxpnPcuoZmW7h1jATdTaHCf; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065216145431952@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:54:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94025770000c49890bebe910daf0f7e77a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.40 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can > do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the > quotes are interesting! > I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O <---> H3O+ + OH -) plus the Added Free Energy of Redox Reactions of H3O+ + e- ---> H plus H2O at the Cathode to form H atoms and the OH - electron donation to the Anode to form OH due to the Helmholtz "Zeta Potential" to generate copious amounts of an H and OH gas for combustion in the cylinders of an ICE. Watch the Swiss movie: :-) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm I think this what Klein is now calling his "Unique HHO gas" in his recent patent application 20060075683 that covers all of the "burning water" prior art posted on the Internet, Brown's Gas, George Wiseman's Eagle Research products, http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 , Daniel Dingal's water powered car, The Joe Cell, and on and on. :-) http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2F netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Klein.IN.&s 2=water.AB.&OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water&RS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water Fred > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > > >A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water > > interface is 500 million volts per meter. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation > > > > " The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, > > work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two > > parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for > > total current. > > > > For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : > > J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E > > "The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared > > multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the > > second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third > > factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence" > > Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for > > Thermionic Emission: > > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html > > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html > > "Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid > > (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this > > jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the > > electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes > > refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a > > uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface" > > Surface dipole > > "In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the > > surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite > > wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron > > density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries > > to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a > > maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the > > electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a > > deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. > > This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the > > surface and produces a step in the surface potential" > > "The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the > > electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density > > (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by > > electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential > > evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic > > potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness > > of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. > > Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi > > energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the > > crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV > > and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The > > work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added > > during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can > > increase or decrease the work function." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 07:55:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GEtgHI011177; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:55:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GEteu4011146; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:55:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:55:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c678f8$c9a23070$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Converting "efficient radiation" Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:55:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <2OA6oD.A.CuC.sfeaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is an impressive but little known body of evidence (most of it coming from laser-ICF research and the "Z machine" data) showing that the element Argon, when it is subject to very large inputs of energy, gives off progressively larger discharges in the "soft" x-ray spectrum. This spectrum would be 3700 eV and less, with the bulk of the energy between 300 and 600 eV. The energy spectrum is characteristic of an Auger cascade. The presumed proximate cause of this anomalous energy is a "metastability" of some kind, found in Argon. No one knows if it is a one-time thing or if the gas can be reused. Metastability (and conservative-metastability at that) is the "official" (mainstream) explanation. There is also the (alternative) possibility that some proportion of natural Argon contains solar-derived highly shrunken hydrinos, as previous posting on this subject have suggested. Other explanations, such as the lepton triad "electronium" are also possible. If solar-derived hydrinos are there "naturally", then the possibility exists that atmospheric Argon can be enriched and then used as a fuel. However, ZPE would likely be the "real" ultimate source of energy. ZPE can be harnessed by their repeated disruption in the k-shell of Argon, and then the (enriched) gas can be reused over-and-over, as the solar derived hydino is stable itself at this level of shrinkage. This is the main role of ZPE anyway- maintaining electron orbital stability. The hydrino is a "natural" fit for ZPE extraction, a fit made in heaven so-to-speak (actually made in the solar corona). There is an implication, from the demonstrated "current squared" model of input-vs-output energy, that at some point, the energy output in the soft x-ray spectrum can exceed the net energy input - IF one can manage to get sufficient energy density deposited quickly enough. In order to get into this ultra-fast time-frame, the energy input at these levels can only be accomplished with a *coherent* input source, such as a very high powered "chirped laser" (or perhaps with very fast switched capacitors, or even better- both) Given that most excimer (non-solid-state) lasers are only 1-3% efficient in converting electrical input into light - this creates a (previously) hopeless situation for using this methodology - the Argon "efficient radiation" anomaly, or metastability, as an alternative energy source. Enter the semiconductor UV laser. It is an expensive laboratory reality now, and will be subject to Moore's law over the coming years. Once alternative energy researchers have access to approximately one-kW level (continuous) of focused UV laser light, then the pulsed light can reach enormous time-delineated density levels, and if produced with an efficiency of 40-50% then the Argon powered ICE engine, like a derivative of the Laumann engine (of NASA) may be a possibility. This should happen by 2008, or before, if the UV laser development is accelerated as a light source for the next generation of lithography machines (probable). James Burke would love it. That is, we are approaching a "cusp" in this advancement-process but on several disparate fronts ... and unless "efficient radiation" is now already part of a secret program, such as the "Aurora" advanced aircraft - in which case, high level efforts may be applied to keep the information secret, then things might come together "just in time" ... as when oil prices fly thorough the roof. There is NO real indication of this secret program now, other than idle speculation. At any rate, there seems to be no problem with continuing with this line of "thought experimentation" on a public forum, and the next posting in this thread will focus on the kind of ICE (in the Laumann tradition) which can use such a large focused laser array - more or less operating as sophisticated "spark plug" in order to force Argon into metastability on a continuous closed-cycle. Curiously... in the tradition of "nothing new under the sun"... all of this might be a present-day reality had not Richard Feynmann "pulled the plug" on Papp in 1968. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle.html Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 09:07:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GG7CEw019283; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:07:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GG6iFe019063; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:06:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,134,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1642203851:sNHT17386140" Message-ID: <28672174.1147795600972.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 9:06:40 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Converting "efficient radiation" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <5_uVRB.A.qpE.UifaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jones Beene: ... > At any rate, there seems to be no problem with > continuing with this line of "thought experimentation" > on a public forum, and the next posting in this thread > will focus on the kind of ICE (in the Laumann > tradition) which can use such a large focused laser > array - more or less operating as sophisticated "spark > plug" in order to force Argon into metastability on a > continuous closed-cycle. ... Speaking of ICE designs, if this "thought experiment" should begin to bare promising fruit I would love to see if it could be applied to the innovative toroidal design as revealed out at Angel Labs, brought to our attention from a recent post to Vortex by Mark Goldes. http://www.angellabsllc.com There's a decent animation showing how the pistons operate out at: http://www.angellabsllc.com/animation.html I love this. A real outside-the-box design. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 09:20:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GGK6eJ027468; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:20:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GGCoJK022789; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:12:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516121228.03d37ce8@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516120859.03e7ae20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:12:33 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The "skeptical" imagination at work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been watching with some amusement as the skeptics gradually devour the Cold Fusion Controversy article in Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion_controversy) Every day they delete a little more. It is like watching insects devour a dead animal. Naturally they are determined to erase all trace of the cold fusion researcher's claims and point of view. They insist that the article must reflect their party line only. But what surprises me is that there equally eager to erase other skeptics' ideas. One of the first things they gutted was Huizenga's claim that we know all cold fusion experimental results are wrong a priori. I suppose they would be proud of that, since they all seem to agree. In the burden of proof argument section, they kept only this part: "Many skeptics have said that the burden of proof is on cold fusion researchers to prove their point. . . ." Naturally, they erased this: "Cold fusion researchers feel they have met this burden. Cold fusion experiments are based upon traditional instruments and techniques, such as calorimeters (most of them developed between the 1780 and 1840), autoradiographs (circa 1890), and conventional tritium detection and mass spectroscopy. Calorimetry is based upon the laws of thermodynamics. Since most skeptics agree that autoradiographs, the laws of thermodynamics and so on are valid, cold fusion advocates argue that the skeptics should agree that cold fusion experiments are valid, and that the burden of proof is on those who say these techniques and laws are inoperative." No opposition or disputation will be allowed, especially not in an article about a controversy! I find it astounding that in the talk section a cold fusion supporter, Pierre Carbonnelle, said that the present modus operendi: ". . . is what made Wikipedia successful." I asked him: "If this is success, what would be failure? What you are seeing is a quintessential example of mob rule, distortion, bias, and rigid adherence to an ignorant, paranoid, and totally unscientific point of view." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 10:00:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GGxwwY016426; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:59:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GGxvP0016398; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:59:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c6790a$27ef8400$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <28672174.1147795600972.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Subject: Re: Converting "efficient radiation" Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:59:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven, > Speaking of ICE designs, if this "thought experiment" should > begin to bare promising fruit I would love to see if it could be > applied to the innovative toroidal design as revealed out at > Angel Labs... http://www.angellabsllc.com Hmmm... how innovative is this "Angel" design really ? Isn't it little more than a spiffy version of the 40 year old Kauertz Engine (without much in the way of proper attribution, one might add) ?http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/rotaryIC/rotaryIC.htm#kau Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 15 14:03:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FL03ve032082; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:03:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4FKhlam024049; Mon, 15 May 2006 13:43:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:43:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=t9YN1NqwNgWXX5eOkWO3Piw2qbuMuJ4OxhPRv0kBkI7UVYZTE9CKiPpFIzm8OGSoebFT+2c51UC8VApZvL7wL2yCaROzlTwau3q//970fBxXe+Iflca6mH8GZQSsgLqb++Q9cClY/wnUKA6PBm+SqyvJIYsqqnV75GdbQuKvOz0= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060515163339.01e3e6d0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:35:11 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Lunar FE? In-Reply-To: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> References: <002101c6785d$8b3425a0$53037841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: With the exception of the Shakespearian dramas, all the rest - and much more (including the art of exaggeration) - were invented by the Scots. P. At 03:24 PM 5/15/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Howdy Pteranondon, > >Shucks, telling the difference between a line transformer and a line >capacitor is easy. Just disconnect them and touch your tongue to the one >you suspect is a capacitor. You will become enlightened. > >England, Merry ole England! They get the blame for upgrading the Greek >language to a modern form useful in politics, Shakespearian dramas, law, >science and cussing. insurance, banking, world trade, computing and >aviation just to name a few. > > First language spoken on the moon was English. If the world is gonna > play catchup, they better learn English. >How did so few accomplish so much ? Answer.. a moral code of ethics. > >Richard > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 10:17:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GHGhX4026318; Tue, 16 May 2006 10:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GHGfCm026301; Tue, 16 May 2006 10:16:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:16:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:15:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The "skeptical" imagination at work In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516121228.03d37ce8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4GHGd6K026274 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See these essays for a psycho-social theory of pathological scepticism. http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/16.1_leiter.pdf Quote: <> follow up: http://www.ScientificExploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/18.4_leiter.pdf Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > I have been watching with some amusement as the skeptics gradually > devour the Cold Fusion Controversy article in Wikipedia. > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion_controversy) Every day they > delete a little more. It is like watching insects devour a dead animal. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 11:46:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GIkD2i009335; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:46:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GIkAJ8009301; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:46:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:46:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060516184605643.9D295480009B@mwinf3107.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060516184606.00bb5464@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 19:46:06 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The "skeptical" imagination at work Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:15 pm 16/05/2006 -0500, Harry wrote: >See these essays for a psycho-social theory of pathological scepticism. > >http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/16.1_leiter.pdf > >http://www.ScientificExploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/18.4_leiter.pdf I found those essays so fascinating, Harry, that I'd like to post this further excerpt. ===================================================== A person who has been duped frequently in everyday life might learn by bitter experience to be cautious and wary. The reaction of those who have joined PhACT is however more dysfunctional. They have been wounded at a deeper level, to the extent that what was purported to be a valid philosophy of life, and in which they were heavily involved, turns out to be empty and useless, even damaging, in their eyes. Thus, they gravitate to what appears to them to be the ultimate non-faith-based philosophy, Science. Unfortunately, while they loudly proclaim their righteousness, based on their professed adherence to “hard science”, they do so with the one thing no true scientist can afford to possess, a closed mind. Instead of becoming scientifically minded, they become adherents of scientism, the belief system in which science and only science has all the answers to everything. This regrettable condition acts to preclude their unbiased consideration of phenomena on the cutting edge of science, which is not how a true scientist should behave. In fact, many “Skeptics” will not even read significantly into the literature on the subjects about which they are most skeptical. I have direct experience with this specific behavior on the part of a number of PhACT members. Initially, I attributed that behavior to just plain laziness, but lately I’ve begun to suspect that those individuals may actually have a phobia about reading material that is contrary to their own views. It seems entirely possible that they fear “contamination” from that exposure will eventually lead to (Gasp!) acceptance of the opposition’s position. Such scientifically inclined, but psychologically scarred people tend to join Skeptics’ organizations much as one might join any other support group, say, Alcoholics Anonymous. There they find comfort, consolation, and support amongst their own kind. ===================================================== Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 11:47:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GIl15V009872; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:47:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GIl0RO009856; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:47:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:47:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,134,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="255216505:sNHT19528798" Message-ID: <1561246691.1147805218288.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:46:58 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Converting "efficient radiation" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jones: > Hmmm... how innovative is this "Angel" design really ? > Isn't it little more than a spiffy version of the 40 > year old Kauertz Engine (without much in the way of > proper attribution, one might add)? > http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/rotaryIC/rotaryIC.htm#kau Take a closer look. I don't think they are the same animal. For example, The Kauertz engine states: "The primary vane or pistons rotate at a steady speed, while the secondary vane rotates at a varying speed, opening and closing the spaces between them." Then, look at the video animation, out at Angel Labs: http://www.angellabsllc.com/animation.html You can see that both piston configurations vary their speed depending on where they are in the intake / outtake phase. I suspect the MYT Engine more closely resembles the Virmel engine, as briefly mentioned immediately below the Kauertz. It's often the case that "innovative" designs appear to be derived from configurations hatched from earlier R&D spawns sharing (at least on the surface) similar characteristics. However, in this case, it would appear that the MYT engine has managed simplify a number of key components Here are some of the MYT Engine claims that obviously need to be independently verified: * A pump/compressor that exceeds existing pumps/compressors in providing massive pressure, volume, and flow, all in one unit. * 40 times higher power to weight ratio. * Low parts count . The claim traditional engines contain 3000 parts. The MYT engine, on the other hand: Only 50. (I wonder if there may be some creative accounting going on here, but still...) Look Ma! No valves! * Low maintenance * High mechanical efficiency * Low pollution, likes using Soybean Oil as fuel. * Can be applied to airplane, big ship, 18 wheeler, SUV, passenger car, even down to carry on power generator applications. I would just like to see this potential design get a fair shake at the table. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 11:54:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GIsIch014091; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GIsFhw014055; Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,134,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1123956511:sNHT30486832" Message-ID: <1067481018.1147805652002.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:54:11 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "skeptical" imagination at work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jed: ... > "If this is success, what would be failure? What you > are seeing is a quintessential example of mob rule, > distortion, bias, and rigid adherence to an ignorant, > paranoid, and totally unscientific point of view." Don't mince words, Jed. Tell us how you really feel about this issue. ;-) Do you think it's worth your time to do a little restorative surgery? Oh well. If wikipedia at least keeps the lenr-canr.org web site link available curious readers can forge ahead and find the important information themselves. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 12:43:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GJhAKk008472; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:43:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GJh8av008452; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:43:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:43:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516150503.03cd8c40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:42:57 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "skeptical" imagination at work In-Reply-To: <1067481018.1147805652002.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> References: <1067481018.1147805652002.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9TTS3C.A.AEC.MtiaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >Do you think it's worth your time to do a little restorative surgery? No. They will instantly undo any changes I make. I have sworn off of Wikipedia. It is a bad habit. The procedures there do not allow a minority view of a controversial subject such as cold fusion. It works reasonably well for subjects such as the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts (selected at random): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Museum_of_Fine_Arts Or the Japanese comic book series "Maison Ikkoku" (of which I am a big fan, I am ashamed to admit): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_Ikkoku I thought about the problems that Wikipedia and I proposed an alternative architecture based on political parties in a deliberative body such as the Congress. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion_controversy#Creating_controversial_articles It seems to me we should make use of traditional methods that have evolved to deal with conflict, politics and differences of opinion. The people at Wikipedia rejected this idea for four reasons: 1. They thought it would require manual intervention. Actually, the plan could easily be automated, which is one of its advantages. 2. They do not recognize that there can be a legitimate difference of opinion. They have an almost charming naivete regarding authoritative sources, journals such as Nature, and the notion that there is one single right answer, or "a neutral point of view" and we should all agree about things. See the example below. 3. Apparently, they prefer to think that people are not political. Especially, they think that they themselves are not political animals. They are wrong; all primates are political. (The modern notion that a person can transcend politics, or that politics are distasteful, resembles the Victorian attitude toward sexuality. A normal, healthy person cannot be apolitical or asexual. You wouldn't want to be either of these things even if you could, because that would make you less than human.) 4. They see no problem with the present Wikipedia structure & procedures. Carbonnelle wrote: "I agree that Jed's proposal is not in line with what made Wikipedia successful. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum." Naivete on Display at Wikipedia Someone named Jeffire wrote: "It is not for me nor you to judge whether the papers were sound as this falls under 'original research'. Rather this is a question of whether the journals in question are rejecting papers out of hand even when they are sound. What is needed is a verifiable proof that of this." To no avail, I explained: "Verifiable proof [that papers have been rejected] is that the papers are missing. Whether they are sound and deserve to be published or not is a matter of opinion. The editors at Nature say no, the researchers say yes. Also, the editors at JJAP and several other journals say yes. If you wish to determine which side is right, and whether the papers are sound or not, you will have to read them and think for yourself. There is no magic touchstone that can reveal merit in a scientific paper." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_7 - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 13:27:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GKRQ4f001821; Tue, 16 May 2006 13:27:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GKROpP001796; Tue, 16 May 2006 13:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:27:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bZXTes+728f8GDCPTJh2j0pgSqORbuU53R6bExyWH14mEVGa2pb4olARZlzN3/64; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065216202715107@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:27:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94056bafabe90e3fb2527b2fdd55327deff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.223 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" it using a battery supply only. Fred > >The "free energy" associated with free (uncommitted) electrons (e*) reacting > with the Na+ (and other cations) in the ocean: > 1, 2 Na+ + 2 (e*) ----> 2 (Na*) > 2, 2 (Na*) + 2 H2O ----> 2 Na+ 2 OH + 2 (H*) > 3, 2 OH ----> H2O2 ----> H2O + O > 4, 2 (H*) + O ----> H2O + 2 (e*) + Free Energy > This frees up the original (e*) electrons to repeat the cycle. > The "Free Energy Density" is limited by the local (e*) concentration. It is conjectured that a vehicle equipped with a Van de Graaff type generator, dragging a collector shoe "static chain" on a grounded rail or aerial cable can collect enough (uncommitted) electrons from earth ground to run a 10 kilowatt-thermal (10,000 joule/sec) "engine" based on the above equations using a salt spray chamber/boiler. The average 5 passenger vehicle with good tires in dry weather should be able to get up to 200,000 volts wrt ground, thus "storing about 10^13 (uncommitted electrons". If each of these "catalyst" electrons can effect about 100,000 reactions per second, you are home free on water. But, don't forget to discharge the vehicle before exiting it. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of
an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005.
 
One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying
the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating"
it using a battery supply only.
 
Fred
>
>The "free energy" associated with free (uncommitted) electrons  (e*) reacting
> with the Na+ (and other cations) in the ocean:
 
> 1,  2 Na+ + 2 (e*) ----> 2  (Na*)
 
> 2, 2 (Na*) + 2 H2O ----> 2 Na+ 2 OH +  2 (H*)
 
> 3, 2 OH ---->   H2O2 ---->   H2O +  O
 
> 4,  2  (H*)  + O   ----> H2O   +  2 (e*)  +  Free Energy
 
> This frees up the original (e*) electrons to repeat the cycle.
 
> The "Free Energy Density" is limited by the local (e*) concentration.
 
It is conjectured that a vehicle equipped with a Van de Graaff type generator, dragging
a collector shoe "static chain" on a grounded rail or aerial cable can collect enough
(uncommitted) electrons from earth ground to run a 10 kilowatt-thermal (10,000 joule/sec)
"engine" based on the above equations using a salt spray chamber/boiler.
 
The average 5 passenger vehicle with good tires in dry weather should be able
to get up to 200,000 volts wrt ground, thus "storing about 10^13 (uncommitted electrons".
If each of these "catalyst" electrons can effect about 100,000 reactions per second,
you are home free on water. 
 
But, don't forget to discharge the vehicle before exiting it.
Frederick
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 14:41:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4GLfXJ6006565; Tue, 16 May 2006 14:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4GLfVLG006544; Tue, 16 May 2006 14:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:41:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516170832.03e7ae20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:41:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_30672156==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_30672156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Josephson describing the PowerPoint slides he uploaded earlier. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JosephsonBabstractfo.pdf This document comes from the web site for the lecture series Meetings of Nobel Laureates in Lindau. See: http://www.lindau-nobel.de/content/view/19/32/ This introduces Josephson's talk delivered in 2004. The PowerPoint slides from that presentation are here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JosephsonBpathologic.pdf Incidently, Josephson's abstract links to a paper about the late Marcello Truzzi: http://www.anomalist.com/milestones/truzzi.html This points out that Truzzi came up with the notion that "extraordinary claims require bla, bla, bla . . ." I thought Carl Sagan invented that. Anyway, Truzzi later disavowed the notion. "In recent years Marcello had come to conclude that the phrase was a non sequitur, meaningless and question-begging, and he intended to write a debunking of his own words." Darn right. As Chris Tinsley used to say, 'extraordinary claims call for the most ordinary proof we can come up with.' Truzzi also recommended replacing the word for extreme skeptics. These are often called "debunkers." He thought that "scoffer" was more accurate. I agree. Anyway this Leiter paper -- which I enjoyed very much -- points to yet another article by Truzzi where he lays out the "extraordinary" rule: "In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof. . . ." That is twice annoying! Not only is the "extraordinary" test meaningless, but I think it is ridiculous to say that a person who refuses to make up his mind gets off scot-free. What is so admirable or intellectually pure about being muddled? About not seeing the obvious true? Or not knowing basic physics? Or worse, pretending you do not know them! Dieter Britz drives me crazy with this act. He recommended the Bauer book to me. He said that is suitably "neutral" about cold fusion. I told him Bauer has some good things to say but in the end he intellectually dishonest and evasive, and frankly that goes twice for Britz himself. I told him: "Bauer . . . is inventing reasons to deny cold fusion, such as the absurd claim there is no 'satisfactory reproducibility' after Mitsubishi reproduced it 100% of the time for six years. What could possibly be 'unsatisfactory' about that? What would satisfy him, if 100% reproducibility is not good enough? His assertion is senseless." You have no leave to say -- as Britz does -- "I don't know, I can't decide" when you are a professional electrochemist and facts are irrefutable. Another author who tried to pull this annoying stunt was the editor of Accountability in Research: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ShamooAEeditorial.pdf "The process of educating myself about the [cold fusion] controversy lead me to reading the three major books about the subject, a large number of newspaper reports, and, most importantly, over sixty original papers on the subject. I do not claim that I follow the logic of the physics and mathematics in all the papers. However, I can follow the fundamentals. I am originally a physicist. I am still not making any judgement concerning the validity of the cold fusion claims." That's outrageous. How can anyone who was originally a physicist not reach a firm conclusion after reading three books and 60 papers in the year 2000!?! I suppose he might have been confused or unwilling to reach a conclusion in 1990. What books did Shamoo read, and what papers? Taubes and Morrison? The calorimetry and mass spectroscopy of cold fusion experiments are not that difficult. To pretend that you cannot reach a conclusion after reading 60 papers is ridiculous. It is evasive and irresponsible. The evidence in favor of cold fusion is overwhelming. I would not put it too strongly to say that this resembles a historian who claims that the Holocaust may or may not have happened. The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a horrendous impact on the real world. - Jed --=====================_30672156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Josephson describing the PowerPoint slides he uploaded earlier. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JosephsonBabstractfo.pdf

This document comes from the web site for the lecture series Meetings of Nobel Laureates in Lindau. See: http://www.lindau-nobel.de/content/view/19/32/

This introduces Josephson’s talk delivered in 2004. The PowerPoint slides from that presentation are here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JosephsonBpathologic.pdf

Incidently, Josephson's abstract links to a paper about the late Marcello Truzzi:

http://www.anomalist.com/milestones/truzzi.html

This points out that Truzzi came up with the notion that "extraordinary claims require bla, bla, bla . . ." I thought Carl Sagan invented that. Anyway, Truzzi later disavowed the notion. "In recent years Marcello had come to conclude that the phrase was a non sequitur, meaningless and question-begging, and he intended to write a debunking of his own words." Darn right. As Chris Tinsley used to say, 'extraordinary claims call for the most ordinary proof we can come up with.'

Truzzi also recommended replacing the word for extreme skeptics. These are often  called "debunkers." He thought that "scoffer" was more accurate. I agree.

Anyway this Leiter paper -- which I enjoyed very much -- points to yet another article by Truzzi where he lays out the "extraordinary" rule:

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual.
that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a
seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a
burden of proof. . . ."

That is twice annoying! Not only is the "extraordinary" test meaningless, but I think it is ridiculous to say that a person who refuses to make up his mind gets off scot-free. What is so admirable or intellectually pure about being muddled? About not seeing the obvious true? Or not knowing basic physics? Or worse, pretending you do not know them! Dieter Britz drives me crazy with this act. He recommended the Bauer book to me. He said that is suitably "neutral" about cold fusion. I told him Bauer has some good things to say but in the end he intellectually dishonest and evasive, and frankly that goes twice for Britz himself. I told him:

"Bauer . . . is inventing reasons to deny cold fusion, such as the absurd claim there is no 'satisfactory reproducibility' after Mitsubishi reproduced it 100% of the time for six years. What could possibly be 'unsatisfactory' about that? What would satisfy him, if 100% reproducibility is not good enough? His assertion is senseless."

You have no leave to say -- as Britz does -- "I don't know, I can't decide" when you are a professional electrochemist and facts are irrefutable.

Another author who tried to pull this annoying stunt was the editor of Accountability in Research:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ShamooAEeditorial.pdf

"The process of educating myself about the [cold fusion] controversy lead me to reading the three major books about the subject, a large number of newspaper reports, and, most importantly, over sixty original papers on the subject. I do not claim that I follow the logic of the physics and mathematics in all the papers. However, I can follow the fundamentals. I am originally a physicist. I am still not making any judgement concerning the validity of the cold fusion claims."

That's outrageous. How can anyone who was originally a physicist not reach a firm conclusion after reading three books and 60 papers in the year 2000!?! I suppose he might have been confused or unwilling to reach a conclusion in 1990. What books did Shamoo read, and what papers? Taubes and Morrison? The calorimetry and mass spectroscopy of cold fusion experiments are not that difficult. To pretend that you cannot reach a conclusion after reading 60 papers is ridiculous. It is evasive and irresponsible. The evidence in favor of cold fusion is overwhelming. I would not put it too strongly to say that this resembles a historian who claims that the Holocaust may or may not have happened. The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a horrendous impact on the real world.

- Jed
--=====================_30672156==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 23:14:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H6DvNR009484; Tue, 16 May 2006 23:13:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H6Dt7R009463; Tue, 16 May 2006 23:13:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:13:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,135,1146412800"; d="scan'208"; a="737340666:sNHT16385676" Message-ID: <446ABF22.2040209@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:13:54 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Running on water?- what the??? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good call Mark but every thing known about the bonds and bond energies and chemistry tells us that this kind of thing is impossible with only one exception a cold plasma. Hydrogen stripped of its electron and oxygen + stripped of one of its 6 outer electrons can mix without burning and holds extra energy because of the missing electron. Such a plasma would have all the properties of browns gas etc including a tendency to implode on contact with a conductive surface that is not positive, i.e. anything that is earthed. Being a plasma it should have significantly more energy pro mole the H2 and O2. The "Gas", plasma, being all positively charged should be almost incompressible, non-combustible if contained properly, and may have some of the exotic properties of both cooper pairs or a bose condensate. I.e. any field that causes the plasma to move at one point should be relayed instantly without loss to any other point in the plasma. The plasma may also have the effect of lensing ZPF with significant force anomalies possible as a result. More work must be done there. However if your focusing ZPF then you could get very big differences in apparent energy output relative to measured energy input. Without, mind you, doing any violence to the laws of thermodynamics. The other application of browns gas and its sisters such as HHO is its cutting ability. Being a positive plasma it can be propelled by field effects deep into rock, metal or brick. There it steals electrons smashing the bonds, both chemical and ionic. Then it reacts with the available atoms in the normal chemical manner. The heat and steam produced melts and shatters even refractory brick. I have handled the Iranian-Australia version of browns invention and it cut refractory bricks like butter.The mining implications are huge yet totally unexploited. There are twice as many "browns gas" inventors in the world than the 'books' show. I know of a man, [the Iranian-Australia] here in Canberra that is stranded for want of a theory. Oh what I could do with a laboratory. My kingdom for a lab bench! Mark Goldes wrote: >> From ZPEnergy.com > > > 100 miles on 4 ounces of water? > Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 @ 23:09:41 PDT by rob > > Science Anonymous writes: From KeelyNet news; 05/13/06 - 1994 Ford > Escort gets 100 miles from 4 oz water > Denny Klein just patented his process of converting H2O to HHO, > producing a gas that combines the atomic power of hydrogen with the > chemical stability of water. "it turns right back to water. In fact, > you can see the h20 running off the sheet metal." Klein originally > designed his water-burning engine for cutting metal. He thought his > invention could replace acetylene in welding factories. Then one day > as he drove to his laboratory in Clearwater, he thought of another way > to burn his HHO gas. "On a 100 mile trip, we use about four ounces of > water." Klein says his prototype 1994 Ford Escort can travel > exclusively on water, though he currently has it rigged to run as a > water and gasoline hybrid. > > 2005 Article - Working in a small, two-room shop at the Airport > Business Center, Klein, 63, said he has developed a gas that speeds > welding and fusing times and improves automobile fuel efficiency 30 > percent. Flipping a switch on his H2O 1500, Klein picks up a hose with > a metal tip, creates a spark, and instantly a blue and white glowing > stream shoots out of the metal tip. He holds the tip with his fingers > to prove how cool it is to the touch, unlike such a tip when > oxy-acetylene is burned for welding. But the instant he sets the flame > on a charcoal briquette, it glows bright orange. Then, within seconds, > he burns a hole through a brick, cuts steel and melts Tungsten. The > temperature of the flame is 259 degrees Fahrenheit. But it > instantaneously rises to the melting temperature of whatever it > touches, Klein said. Those temperatures can exceed 10,000 degrees > Fahrenheit. "You can't do this with any other gas," he said. Klein > also has outfitted a 1994 Ford Escort station wagon with a smaller > electrolyzer that injects his HHO into the gasoline in the car's > engine. He said he has increased his mileage per gallon by 30 percent. > / He doesn't yet have a patent, only this 40 page application and it > is, I think, bustable by several 'prior art' (Rhodes) patents and Yull > Brown public claims/demos for many years before - Patent Application - > 20060075683 - April 13, 2006 - An electrolyzer which decomposes > distilled water into a new fuel composed of hydrogen, oxygen and their > molecular and magnecular bonds, called HHO. The electrolyzer can be > used to provide the new combustible gas as an additive to combustion > engine fuels or in flame or other generating equipment such as torches > and welders. It will be soon evident that, despite a number of > similarities, the HHO gas is dramatically different than the Brown gas > or other gases produced by pre-existing electrolyzers. In fact, the > latter is a combination of conventional hydrogen and conventional > oxygen gases, that is, gases possessing the conventional "molecular" > structure, having the exact stochiometric ratio of 2/3 hydrogen and > 1/3 oxygen. As we shall see, the HHO gas does not have such an exact > stochiometric ratio but instead has basically a structure having a > "magnecular" characteristic, including the presence of clusters in > macroscopic percentages that cannot be explained via the usual valence > bond. As a consequence, the constituents clusters of the Brown Gas and > the HHO gas are dramatically different both in percentages as well as > in chemical composition, as shown below. With the use of only 4 Kwh, > an electrolyzer rapidly converts water into 55 standard cubic feet > (scf) of HHO gas at 35 pounds per square inch (psi). By using the > average daily cost of electricity at the rate of $0.08/Kwh, the above > efficiency implies the direct cost of the HHO gas of $0.007/scf. It > then follows that the HHO gas is cost competitive with respect to > existing fuels. (Great name for the gas...Rhodes was first, Brown > copied him, now Klein copies Brown though he says not...so how about > just HHO gas! - JWD) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 16 23:36:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H6aiYM019266; Tue, 16 May 2006 23:36:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H6ai28019261; Tue, 16 May 2006 23:36:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:36:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <109801c6797c$3f70cae0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220065216145431952@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:36:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I >> can >> do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the >> quotes are interesting! >> > I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the > Autoionization of Water > ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O <---> H3O+ + OH -) Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) --------- H2O(l) -> OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. --------- If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) > plus the Added Free > Energy of > Redox Reactions of H3O+ + e- ---> H plus H2O at the Cathode to form H > atoms and > the OH - electron donation to the Anode to form OH due to the > Helmholtz "Zeta Potential" to generate copious amounts of an H and OH gas > for combustion in the cylinders of an ICE. Combustion into H2O vapor I suppose? So the net reaction is H2O(l) -> H2O(g) right? Again this doesn't produce any net energy, on the contrary it absorbs about 40 kJ/mol I am afraid. Michel > > Watch the Swiss movie: :-) > > http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm > > I think this what Klein is now calling his "Unique HHO gas" in his recent > patent application > 20060075683 that covers all of the "burning water" prior art posted on the > Internet, Brown's Gas, > George Wiseman's Eagle Research products, > http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 > , Daniel Dingal's water powered car, The Joe Cell, and on and on. :-) > > http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2F > netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Klein.IN.&s > 2=water.AB.&OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water&RS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water > > Fred > >> >> Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc >> >> >> >A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water >> > interface is 500 million volts per meter. >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation >> > >> > " The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, >> > work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has > two >> > parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation > for >> > total current. >> > >> > For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : >> > J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E >> > "The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared >> > multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the >> > second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third >> > factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence" >> > Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for >> > Thermionic Emission: >> > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html >> > http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html >> > "Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid >> > (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this >> > jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the >> > electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes >> > refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that > a >> > uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface" >> > Surface dipole >> > "In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at > the >> > surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The > finite >> > wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron >> > density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one > tries >> > to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a >> > maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the >> > electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) > produces a >> > deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess > outside. >> > This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the >> > surface and produces a step in the surface potential" >> > "The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the >> > electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density >> > (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by >> > electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential >> > evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic >> > potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the > roughness >> > of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. >> > Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi >> > energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the >> > crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 > eV >> > and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The >> > work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are > added >> > during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles > can >> > increase or decrease the work function." > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 00:19:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H7IvWt007426; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:18:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H7IsRm007408; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:18:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:18:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 03:18:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516170832.03e7ae20@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1rW-2D.A.pzB.e5saEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a horrendous > impact on the real world. "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a horrendous impact on the real world." Fill in the blank and take a number... ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 00:34:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H7YO8E014474; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:34:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H7YM1W014458; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:34:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:34:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lHoEt36uSQ/v1zVP1+0+Fb3jh3bPNUAw+XQqxq/Tyld9SkptyL5i78WVltshleN3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531773411592@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re:Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:34:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a559c02c38ae55f5a7d6f563cbeae062350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.43 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Using 12 SS plates stacked similar to this setup: http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 The 12 plates (11 cells) were slipped over plastic rod with ~ 1.0 cm spacing. Immersed in distilled water in a container evacuated to 5 inches Hg pressure. The current with 12 volts DC applied was 2.0E-3 amperes. According to Faraday's laws there was 11*2.0E-3*6.25E18 = 1.375E17 H-OH bonds broken with 12*2.0E-3 = 2.4E-2 joule input. But, H-OH bond energy is 4.53 EV upon recombination, hence 1.375E17*4.53*1.16E-19 = 9.96E-2 Joule, implying a C.O.P. of 9.96E-2/2.4E-2 = 4.15. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Using  12 SS plates stacked similar to this setup:
 
 
The 12 plates (11 cells) were slipped over plastic rod
with ~ 1.0 cm spacing. Immersed in distilled water in
a container evacuated to 5 inches Hg pressure.
 
The current with 12 volts DC applied was 2.0E-3 amperes.
 
According to Faraday's laws there was 11*2.0E-3*6.25E18
= 1.375E17  H-OH bonds broken with 12*2.0E-3 = 2.4E-2
joule input.
But, H-OH  bond energy is 4.53 EV upon recombination,
hence 1.375E17*4.53*1.16E-19 = 9.96E-2 Joule, implying
a C.O.P. of 9.96E-2/2.4E-2 = 4.15.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 00:46:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H7kCbi020661; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:46:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H7kCfR020654; Wed, 17 May 2006 00:46:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:46:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lNMmmI8yaaQ2hrmBUOyv49p7oFAWUOO7x1PnmzqWxU3xV2Pi+/T8BcoTikK1u2Ch; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200653177462995@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:46:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94071c97904853a5f2215f1fe195d617ba6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.43 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:54 PM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I > >> can > >> do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the > >> quotes are interesting! > >> > > I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the > > Autoionization of Water > > ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O <---> H3O+ + OH -) > > Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? > My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) > --------- > H2O(l) -> OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) > Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. >-------- > If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only > occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) > http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm "2 H2O <---> H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole" In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert electrodes the values stay constant, Michel. :-) Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 01:00:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H80QSS028897; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:00:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H80MD7028856; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:00:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:00:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ecEAiO1bqqqcI6EOfXvQa6IkATRqZGShJxpGI2LMBSzYLbTpR/YKKPuGdBjseMVE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200653178010334@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re:Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:00:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c6339a02907177aeafbec3d5b2410404350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.43 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders in the Joe Cell. the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged (two) holes in the plates. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 1:34:56 AM Subject: Re:Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Using 12 SS plates stacked similar to this setup: http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 The 12 plates (11 cells) were slipped over plastic rod with ~ 1.0 cm spacing. Immersed in distilled water in a container evacuated to 5 inches Hg pressure. The current with 12 volts DC applied was 2.0E-3 amperes. According to Faraday's laws there was 11*2.0E-3*6.25E18 = 1.375E17 H-OH bonds broken with 12*2.0E-3 = 2.4E-2 joule input. But, H-OH bond energy is 4.53 EV upon recombination, hence 1.375E17*4.53*1.16E-19 = 9.96E-2 Joule, implying a C.O.P. of 9.96E-2/2.4E-2 = 4.15. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only
the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders
in the Joe Cell.  the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves
over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged
(two) holes in the plates.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/17/2006 1:34:56 AM
Subject: Re:Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment

Using  12 SS plates stacked similar to this setup:
 
 
The 12 plates (11 cells) were slipped over plastic rod
with ~ 1.0 cm spacing. Immersed in distilled water in
a container evacuated to 5 inches Hg pressure.
 
The current with 12 volts DC applied was 2.0E-3 amperes.
 
According to Faraday's laws there was 11*2.0E-3*6.25E18
= 1.375E17  H-OH bonds broken with 12*2.0E-3 = 2.4E-2
joule input.
But, H-OH  bond energy is 4.53 EV upon recombination,
hence 1.375E17*4.53*1.16E-19 = 9.96E-2 Joule, implying
a C.O.P. of 9.96E-2/2.4E-2 = 4.15.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 01:08:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H888AF000529; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:08:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H887Qe000500; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:08:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:08:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 04:07:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc In-reply-to: <410-220065216202715107@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Zw6iM8BBL+WxYUf3BmJ1iA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <3IRx0.A.oH.mntaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Zw6iM8BBL+WxYUf3BmJ1iA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" it using a battery supply only. Fred --Boundary_(ID_Zw6iM8BBL+WxYUf3BmJ1iA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Of related interest.
Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor:
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp

Harry


Frederick Sparber wrote:

Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of
an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005.

One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying
the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating"
it using a battery supply only.

Fred
--Boundary_(ID_Zw6iM8BBL+WxYUf3BmJ1iA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 01:50:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H8ofD6018985; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:50:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H8oYpr018935; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:50:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10f501c6798e$f2456970$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200653177462995@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:50:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:46 AM >> > I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the >> > Autoionization of Water >> > ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O <---> H3O+ + OH -) >> >> Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't > it? >> My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) >> --------- >> H2O(l) -> OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) >> Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. >>-------- >> If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only >> occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) >> > http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm > > "2 H2O <---> H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole" Oh you meant the Gibbs free energy change Fred? My spreadsheet agrees: it finds dG=79.87 kJ/mol for the reaction as I have written it, so it's obviously the same reaction. But dG has nothing to do with produced energy, which is -dH (minus the _enthalpy_ change), which in the present case is negative (-56kJ/mol as shown above i.e. the reaction absorbs energy). dG is about spontaneity and dynamics, not about net energy. If you're interested in the thermochemistry calculator spreadsheet which can work out this kind of stuff (enthalpies, entropies, Gibbs, and more) for any reaction you specify, I'll send it to you by private email. Michel > > In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert > electrodes > the values stay constant, Michel. :-) > > Fred > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 01:53:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H8qoTI019966; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:52:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H8qnwi019942; Wed, 17 May 2006 01:52:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:52:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fVk8LDEe63RZ6Hpj5vsB29rCwUP65zB9YUKOLtx9JiyzlRqCh3/3P+9swgs/Doyj; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531785241214@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:52:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e97271fc27ebbb6474c5c163221c07dc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.183 Resent-Message-ID: <66brYD.A.e3E.gRuaEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze water for you. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" it using a battery supply only. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry.
 
OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode
to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the
cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from
Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze
water for you.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc


Of related interest.
Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor:
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp

Harry


Frederick Sparber wrote:

Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of
an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005.

One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying
the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating"
it using a battery supply only.

Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 02:23:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H9NMWo001864; Wed, 17 May 2006 02:23:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H9NKCE001848; Wed, 17 May 2006 02:23:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:23:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mAMgrdDHD2A1d6vePoBUTRkVVtXuL8dzjWVI/ywG/irY33FHcEepopnfHqSIzpP2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065317923891@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 03:23:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bfd16655b0da50401e5ebf7aa3507aad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.183 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:46 AM > > >> > I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the > >> > Autoionization of Water > >> > ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O <---> H3O+ + OH -) > >> > >> Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't > > it? > >> My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) > >> --------- > >> H2O(l) -> OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) > >> Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. > >>-------- > >> If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only > >> occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) > >> > > http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm > > > > "2 H2O <---> H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole" > > Oh you meant the Gibbs free energy change Fred? My spreadsheet agrees: it > finds dG=79.87 kJ/mol for the reaction as I have written it, so it's > obviously the same reaction. > Right, and if it wasn't "Free" by 0.83 eV per H3O+ and OH- pair continuouly produced from high purity water you would have to add acids-bases or salts (or atmospheric acid gases-molecules) to get the 18 Megohm-cm (or less) resistivity. > > But dG has nothing to do with produced energy, which is -dH (minus the > _enthalpy_ change), which in the present case is negative (-56kJ/mol as > shown above i.e. the reaction absorbs energy). dG is about spontaneity and > dynamics, not about net energy. > Yes it does, Michel. Try electolyzing Anhydrous Methanol or Ethanol or glycols and motor oil, not to mention ice.. :-) > > If you're interested in the thermochemistry > calculator spreadsheet which can work out this kind of stuff (enthalpies, > entropies, Gibbs, and more) for any reaction you specify, I'll send it to > you by private email. > Thanks for the offer. I'll let my lackey(1800 miles away) finish running the stainlees steel Joe Cell type plate-stack experiment where present power in/power.out is 4.0 but,the energy from that lump of coal used in charging the battery is probaly going to give an energy in/energy out ratio of 0.75. Free energy does fall off apple trees though. Isaac Newton probably figured that out.. Fred > > Michel > > > > > In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert > > electrodes > > the values stay constant, Michel. :-) > > > > Fred > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 02:40:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4H9e2ru008772; Wed, 17 May 2006 02:40:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4H9e06x008726; Wed, 17 May 2006 02:40:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:40:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <111801c67995$d9ab7ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006531785241214@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:39:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. > > OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode > to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the > cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from > Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to > electrolyze > water for you. :-) Quite right Fred! I am told that some people living close to the Eiffel tower (which bears powerful TV emitters) heat their flats this way. Michel > > Fred > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Harry Veeder > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > > > Of related interest. > Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: > http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp > > Harry > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of > an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. > > One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying > the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" > it using a battery supply only. > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 06:26:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HDQ63i007106; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HDQ35e007041; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 06:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:25:47 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060516170832.03e7ae20@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a > horrendous > > impact on the real world. > >"The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a >horrendous impact on the real world." > >Fill in the blank and take a number... Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 06:34:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HDY8dx012290; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:34:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HDY7kB012269; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:34:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 06:34:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:34:00 -0400 Message-Id: <8C847CDB094B836-2164-CD0F@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200653178010334@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-2200653178010334@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4HDY6dF012252 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders in the Joe Cell.  the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged (two) holes in the plates. <><><><><> That's not the way I see it. It looks like every other plate is of opposite polarity. Did you watch the video? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 06:39:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HDdF9k015723; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:39:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HDdDNH015686; Wed, 17 May 2006 06:39:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 06:39:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:39:08 -0400 Message-Id: <8C847CE6811F2B2-2164-CD3E@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-2200653178010334@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-2200653178010334@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4HDdAsd015658 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders in the Joe Cell.  the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged (two) holes in the plates. <><><><><><> If you read Bryan's comments below you will see that he's pulse width modulating the 12 V to a 3.75 VRMS input. Also every other plate has opposite polarity: "Mach all thread rod is nutted to every other plate. In other words two positive plates have a negative plate between them. The plates alternate between positive and negative. The only reason they don't touch each other is because of the larger hole drilled in the plate wont allow the opposite polarity plate to make any contact through the nut. Then I used magnet tape to keep the plates uniform. And it seems to me that the magnet tape has benefits in the production oh h2. The magnetic tape is not conductive. .. I hope this helps you out. I really need to make a drawing, I know it is a little confusing with the way I word thing. If you need any more help just keep doing what you are doing and I will help you all I can. " He also uses MAGNETS . . . a direct violation of the Joe Cell concept. This is a very dangerous device since the gas emitted is H2 and O2. One little spark and . . . Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 07:04:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HE41CG003512; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:04:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HE3x4i003468; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:03:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:03:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tRK1vlRXC3aCYhC4UtJlal8nQl1Sx5Z8BkF5T0nv9VOwX4CW++98iS+1qJ2rfDWK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:00:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94077c0f06c89c4bfab967f0689bd74e837350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.58 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only > the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders > in the Joe Cell.  the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves > over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged > (two) holes in the plates. > You're right Terry, he's putting the 12 volts or more across each cell spaced less than 1/4 inch with ~ 75 cm^2 plate area! With about 50,000 ohm-cm water (about what our cell is running) there is about 144 ohms between plates at 83 milliampere current. The "cell" should produce about 2.0E19 H, OH pairs per second. Ours is like the Joe Cell, or now Klein's patent application. Fred > <><><><><> > > That's not the way I see it. It looks like every other plate is of > opposite polarity. Did you watch the video? > > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 07:21:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HELR14015186; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:21:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HELOWP015130; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:21:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:21:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c679bd$2b925cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:21:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > Ours is like the Joe Cell, or now Klein's patent application. There seems to be no good reason that the electrode geometry needs to be cylindrical (except that Meyer and Joe both chose it) - OTOH electrode "surface area" (as opposed to geometry) does seem to be important. Are you roughing up or etching the plates to increase surface area? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 07:26:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HEPoe1018726; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:25:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HEPnTg018707; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ppfu+TD62OUk5RDAWGVVcQW0VgmgH22KOP4r4L+npcfm5NiYG65gxHYcCeGkm5fR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065317142540979@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:25:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94049941a84b96b19a7047425743e991197350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.25 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't do PCMs. But it would reduce the current to about 20 milliamperes peak. > > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 5/17/2006 7:39:58 AM > Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > BTW the 12 Volts is applied to each of the end plates only > the other 10 plates "float" just like the concentric cylinders > in the Joe Cell.  the Plates are spaced with 1 cm sleeves > over the insulating rods passing through the enlarged > (two) holes in the plates. > > <><><><><><> > > If you read Bryan's comments below you will see that he's pulse width > modulating the 12 V to a 3.75 VRMS input. Also every other plate has > opposite polarity: > > "Mach all thread rod is nutted to every other plate. > In other words two positive plates have a negative plate between them. > The plates alternate between positive and negative. The only reason > they don't touch each other is because of the larger hole drilled in > the plate wont allow the opposite polarity plate to make any contact > through the nut. Then I used magnet tape to keep the plates uniform. > And it seems to me that the magnet tape has benefits in the production > oh h2. The magnetic tape is not conductive. .. I hope this helps you > out. I really need to make a drawing, I know it is a little confusing > with the way I word thing. > If you need any more help just keep doing what you are doing and I will > help you all I can. " > > He also uses MAGNETS . . . a direct violation of the Joe Cell concept. > > This is a very dangerous device since the gas emitted is H2 and O2. > One little spark and . . . > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 07:43:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HEhMR4029961; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:43:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HEhI4u029923; Wed, 17 May 2006 07:43:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:43:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DP3/0Oqxg4zrc21zfcV/DICKTPW+djDmoYqzr5Q956T0sNVuRI7RKbRswsLLtNxb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531714431251@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:43:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94073d8206124f4038a5aa16b896fae00f1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.25 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's easier to do Rectangular plates for making the cell, but harder to pressure-vacuum package than circular concentric cells. Ours is rectangular. built in a heavy wall hexagonal gallon size glass jug and assembled like building "a ship in a bottle". My "colleague", 1800 miles to the east, was anxious to get started bottling free energy. After a $61.25 gift credit card fill-up at the gas pump for my daughter's Dodge Durango (I sold it to her for a $1.00 for commuting on I-25 and I-40 Albuquerque "freeways") to her elementary school teaching job, who wouldn't be? :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: > Date: 5/17/2006 8:22:28 AM > Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cover Plate Experiment > > Fred, > > > Ours is like the Joe Cell, or now Klein's patent application. > > There seems to be no good reason that the electrode geometry needs > to be cylindrical (except that Meyer and Joe both chose it) - OTOH > electrode "surface area" (as opposed to geometry) does seem to be > important. > > Are you roughing up or etching the plates to increase surface > area? > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 08:53:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HFfrvV004080; Wed, 17 May 2006 08:41:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HFflPq004019; Wed, 17 May 2006 08:41:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:41:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c679c8$61f6c460$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> <006401c679bd$2b925cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:41:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope that Fred's Hemholtz-optimized cell works to self-power an ICE, or at least can increase the efficiency of gasoline combustion. The simple addition of some hydrogen should increase the efficiency of combustion in any ICE, since the flame speed of hydrogen is so high - and if a lower voltage electrolysis results in some peroxides - all the better. As I understand the situation, Fred's thinking on the underlying modality of this experiment is that the lower effective voltage and surface interaction across the many plates does not produce H2 and O2 but instead produces hydronium and mixed hydroxyl based oxidizers. This would imply a short "window of opportunity" before recombination - so the mix must be used PDQ, no? If total self-power is the goal, and this lower voltage Hemholtz-layer system does not accomplish that lofty aim - then there are a range of combination-type experimental alternatives - all of which are much more expensive to attempt. IMHO, the options of highest probability for sucess (depending on whose logic you employ) - that is, which would be moving towards the next logical step of "zero" fossil fuel, using both an optimized Hemholtz-layer type of low-voltage electrolysis cell - which has gotten close to the goal - but not to total self-power. If cost were no obejct: 1) closed-cycle with argon gas as the medium (combination: Laumann/Papp/Joe/Klein) or if Bill Gates comes along with his checkbook: 2) closed-cycle, as above, with argon as a medium but fired by a high-powered UV laser in order to get the Argon into the maximum "efficient radiation" regime. This is a big improvement over the basic Laumann idea ... if ... indeed there does exist in nature, a small proportion of "active-argon," which is being called "special-K". If it is there, then it exists because solar hydrinos are converting potassium in the oceans of earth into an erstaz-argon - and this has been going on for billions of years. ...or if 'Sam' comes along, the generous Uncle offering the resources of a national lab, and given that the experiments above are partially successful, then we: 3) attempt to "enrich" the Argon in the active component, special-K. This would be done by "Calutron" type methods if nothing else comes along. The Ford hydrogen powered ICE has shown that you can get from 25% Carnot efficiency to ~45% by just a simple fuel substitution. It is mind-boggling to me that the Laumann engine has been lost and forgotten - given that it can possibly squeeze out 40% more energy from hydrogen than even the Ford Focus. Even so, that is a long way from self-power ... unless that is, there is "something" very special about special-K Jones BTW, on the Wiki entry for the Calutron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calutron ....there is a picture of women operating the machines at Y-12 during the war. There are many anecdotal stories about this situation in the folklore of East Tennessee, but one of the more interesting ones is that - due to the need for copper during the war (for ammuntion) - the coils of the Calutrons could not be made of that commodity - as no one was sure that the machine would work as claimed - but we damn-well knew that bullets worked... ...consequently - almost the entire National supply of pure Silver bullion from Ft. Knox and elsewhere - was "borrowed" by the "Clinton Engineering Works" (false front) and then extruded and drawn into magnet-wire to be used in the giant coils of the Calutrons. - these machines were just glorified mass-specs-on steroids, which went from blueprint to actual model with no protoype, and one can imagine that the rural workers, mostly Tobacco farmers too old for combat, who were intalling them - must have thought that the world of science was a very mysterious and magical place. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 09:40:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HGeJKb006838; Wed, 17 May 2006 09:40:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HGeFdT006744; Wed, 17 May 2006 09:40:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:39:56 -0400 Message-Id: <8C847E7AA880D70-2164-D476@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> <006401c679bd$2b925cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007801c679c8$61f6c460$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <007801c679c8$61f6c460$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4HGe37B006610 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene ...consequently - almost the entire National supply of pure Silver bullion from Ft. Knox and elsewhere - was "borrowed" by the "Clinton Engineering Works" (false front) and then extruded and drawn into magnet-wire to be used in the giant coils of the Calutrons.  <><><><><><> Also, TVA was under construction at the time and many power lines had the same Cu substitution. They kept it quite quiet to keep the hillbillies from "harvesting" the Ag before the lines could be replaced. :-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 09:52:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HGpiCr014304; Wed, 17 May 2006 09:51:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HGpdYg014268; Wed, 17 May 2006 09:51:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:51:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=q/FxcXVnWQMjxtwy0eJTr+lBwkwL1Pvonx8iwPmq+adlhd5XDZKGRxKmVXXY5661; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065317165127212@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:51:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940866ac418832d90be8526ce6a7504254d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.118 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With a P-out/P-in of 4.0 for the Helmholtz/Joe Cell, the 54% Otto Cycle or 64% Diesel Cycle can allow "Self-Sustained" shaft power output without major tooling Jones. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm BTW. There was a restaurant in Clinton ran by a little old lady where Don Ernst (RCA then Thermacore) and I really enjoyed the homespun atmosphere and cooking, while we dissected Potassium-Argon filled Nickel heat pipes in 1969-70. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: > Date: 5/17/2006 9:42:54 AM > Subject: Towards an Ar-ICE ... > > I hope that Fred's Helmholtz-optimized cell works to self-power an > ICE, or at least can increase the efficiency of gasoline > combustion. The simple addition of some hydrogen should increase > the efficiency of combustion in any ICE, since the flame speed of > hydrogen is so high - and if a lower voltage electrolysis results > in some peroxides - all the better. > > As I understand the situation, Fred's thinking on the underlying > modality of this experiment is that the lower effective voltage > and surface interaction across the many plates does not produce H2 > and O2 but instead produces hydronium and mixed hydroxyl based > oxidizers. This would imply a short "window of opportunity" before > recombination - so the mix must be used PDQ, no? > > If total self-power is the goal, and this lower voltage > Helmholtz-layer system does not accomplish that lofty aim - then > there are a range of combination-type experimental alternatives - > all of which are much more expensive to attempt. > > IMHO, the options of highest probability for success (depending on > whose logic you employ) - that is, which would be moving towards > the next logical step of "zero" fossil fuel, using both an > optimized Helmholtz-layer type of low-voltage electrolysis cell - > which has gotten close to the goal - but not to total self-power. > > If cost were no object: > > 1) closed-cycle with argon gas as the medium (combination: > Laumann/Papp/Joe/Klein) > > or if Bill Gates comes along with his checkbook: > > 2) closed-cycle, as above, with argon as a medium but fired by a > high-powered UV laser in order to get the Argon into the maximum > "efficient radiation" regime. > > This is a big improvement over the basic Laumann idea ... if ... > indeed there does exist in nature, a small proportion of > "active-argon," which is being called "special-K". If it is there, > then it exists because solar hydrinos are converting potassium in > the oceans of earth into an erstaz-argon - and this has been going > on for billions of years. > > ...or if 'Sam' comes along, the generous Uncle offering the > resources of a national lab, and given that the experiments above > are partially successful, then we: > > 3) attempt to "enrich" the Argon in the active component, > special-K. > > This would be done by "Calutron" type methods if nothing else > comes along. > > The Ford hydrogen powered ICE has shown that you can get from 25% > Carnot efficiency to ~45% by just a simple fuel substitution. It > is mind-boggling to me that the Laumann engine has been lost and > forgotten - given that it can possibly squeeze out 40% more energy > from hydrogen than even the Ford Focus. > > Even so, that is a long way from self-power ... unless that is, > there is "something" very special about special-K > > Jones > > BTW, on the Wiki entry for the Calutron: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calutron > > ....there is a picture of women operating the machines at Y-12 > during the war. There are many anecdotal stories about this > situation in the folklore of East Tennessee, but one of the more > interesting ones is that - due to the need for copper during the > war (for ammunition) - the coils of the Calutrons could not be made > of that commodity - as no one was sure that the machine would work > as claimed - but we damn-well knew that bullets worked... > > ...consequently - almost the entire National supply of pure Silver > bullion from Ft. Knox and elsewhere - was "borrowed" by the > "Clinton Engineering Works" (false front) and then extruded and > drawn into magnet-wire to be used in the giant coils of the > Calutrons. > > - these machines were just glorified mass-specs-on steroids, which > went from blueprint to actual model with no prototype, and one can > imagine that the rural workers, mostly Tobacco farmers too old for > combat, who were installing them - must have thought that the world > of science was a very mysterious and magical place. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 10:18:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HHI97a025826; Wed, 17 May 2006 10:18:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HHI5iK025767; Wed, 17 May 2006 10:18:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:18:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a401c679d5$d8b20c60$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> <006401c679bd$2b925cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007801c679c8$61f6c460$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C847E7AA880D70-2164-D476@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:17:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry & Fred, > Also, TVA was under construction at the time and many power > lines had the same Cu substitution. They kept it quite quiet to > keep the hillbillies from "harvesting" the Ag before the lines > could be replaced. :-) Yup, and only 20 miles away, via "thunder road" from Clinton/Oak Ridge where Fred was sipping clear spirits, mixed with muddy coffee, was another TVA follow-on under construction, where the aluminum power line wire was eventually was to be made. Then it was the largest factory in the world (Y-12 being the second largest) not to mention - the local town was named after it: Alcoa. They even owned their own Dam, which TVA did not appreciate. Not bad ... rural Appalachia going from less-than-nothing to near-respectability in a decade - thank you very kindly, FDR. To be fair to the hillbillies, they would only "harvest" metals which were useful for certain "plumbing" tasks, and copper was the condensation coil of choice for the local cash-crop essence, which one suspects Fred took a few Mason Jars worth back to impress the folks in "Cosmopolitan" New Mexico. Matter of fact ... it would be a safe bet that some of the more ambitious locals will likely be dusting off Gramp's old 'still in the coming months, now that gasoline will be pushing $4 bucks this summer.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 10:54:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HHsg2I015659; Wed, 17 May 2006 10:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HHsbPP015598; Wed, 17 May 2006 10:54:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:54:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:54:33 -0400 Message-Id: <8C847F216874AF4-2164-D785@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-22006531714037307@earthlink.net> <006401c679bd$2b925cf0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <007801c679c8$61f6c460$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C847E7AA880D70-2164-D476@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> <00a401c679d5$d8b20c60$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00a401c679d5$d8b20c60$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene To be fair to the hillbillies, they would only "harvest" metals which were useful for certain "plumbing" tasks <><><><><><> I once assisted my great-uncle in construction of a total Cu distillery. He even used silver solder since he was a patron of the client. ;-) As far as fuel goes, my dad ran such a facility for another person. One day, he and his brother ran out of gas on the way out of the woods with a load of "the product". Dad sat on the fender of the old truck pouring the white fuel into the carb while my uncle steered the truck. They actually made two types of product: one for sellin' and one for drinkin'. The latter came from the first "run" of the ingredients. I guess today you could use the former for the fuel. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 11:26:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HIPv7M001583; Wed, 17 May 2006 11:25:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HIPtng001557; Wed, 17 May 2006 11:25:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:25:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:25:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <00D4pD.A.RY.zq2aEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a >> horrendous >>> impact on the real world. >> >> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a >> horrendous impact on the real world." >> >> Fill in the blank and take a number... > > Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made > into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery > in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, > agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. > > - Jed > > Sure, but there have been costs too. Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental impact studies are now required by law. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 11:37:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HIbGDQ008509; Wed, 17 May 2006 11:37:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HIbD0w008450; Wed, 17 May 2006 11:37:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:37:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:36:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc In-reply-to: <410-22006531785241214@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_FiiSE0SaAI1Ru5/CV6c+4w)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_FiiSE0SaAI1Ru5/CV6c+4w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT But it can also function as a motor. (Maybe nanoscale motors work this way.) What I was wondering is whether the friction of motion could be used to replenish the static charges and keep the motor turning. Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze water for you. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" it using a battery supply only. Fred --Boundary_(ID_FiiSE0SaAI1Ru5/CV6c+4w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
But it can also function as a motor. (Maybe nanoscale motors work this way.)

What I was wondering is whether the friction of motion could
be used to replenish the static charges and keep the motor turning.

Harry

Frederick Sparber wrote:

They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry.

OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode
to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the
cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from
Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze
water for you.  :-)

Fred


----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Veeder <mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>  
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc


Of related interest.
Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor:
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp

Harry


Frederick Sparber wrote:

Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of
an "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005.

One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying
the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating"
it using a battery supply only.

Fred


--Boundary_(ID_FiiSE0SaAI1Ru5/CV6c+4w)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 12:20:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HJKDN5031925; Wed, 17 May 2006 12:20:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HJKCMj031911; Wed, 17 May 2006 12:20:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:20:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X/ThNCnnNTtroZYtw+jC8zbvlYJZ/YYR8o6ZOw0wgu889bZzcNiqykdk+wB3DIhJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065317191958690@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:19:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407dab11987d7591a7b956f3e8e36dc8de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems to me that substituting a 5 gallon propane tank for the Joe Cell would allow low-pressure on-board distillation of the squeezins "product". if you draw some heat from the cooling system heater hose loop. That way Terry doesn't have to ride on the front fender obstructing Jones' view of the passing scenery. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 5/17/2006 11:55:32 AM > Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene > > To be fair to the hillbillies, they would only "harvest" metals which > were useful for certain "plumbing" tasks > > <><><><><><> > > I once assisted my great-uncle in construction of a total Cu > distillery. He even used silver solder since he was a patron of the > client. ;-) > > As far as fuel goes, my dad ran such a facility for another person. > One day, he and his brother ran out of gas on the way out of the woods > with a load of "the product". Dad sat on the fender of the old truck > pouring the white fuel into the carb while my uncle steered the truck. > > They actually made two types of product: one for sellin' and one for > drinkin'. The latter came from the first "run" of the ingredients. I > guess today you could use the former for the fuel. > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 12:31:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HJVcJS005559; Wed, 17 May 2006 12:31:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HJVYwW005523; Wed, 17 May 2006 12:31:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:31:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:30:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: History of Electrostatic motors In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1-ymh.A.KWB.Wo3aEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This link has more on the history of electrostatic motors. Includes several illustrations. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 13:44:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HKe5oa009840; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:43:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HKKjkH032417; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:20:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:20:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YIciqKwiWrMEvq3VMAsyvl9OVmRDOlZOG+4LzS/3/WWTVpgUeSg5V3GWAZA+5RV3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065317202027268@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:20:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400291913888c47d2b2e6e60500ed83335350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.90 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Geez`Terry. A pickup truck with a camper shell is ideal for hauling a few sacks of corn, a cooker and a roughing still heated off the engine exhaust with the moving air condenser coil. The "mobility product" portion is fed to the propane tank low pressure distillation chamber for the engine. Lets see, there was you, your dad, your uncle, and your Great Uncle. What a cool way to bridge the Co-Generation Gap. I don't know if ATF has any statutes to cover moving violations. Fred , ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Geez`Terry.
A pickup truck with a camper shell is ideal for
hauling a few sacks of corn, a cooker and a roughing still
heated off the engine exhaust with the moving air condenser coil.
The "mobility product" portion is fed to the propane tank low pressure
distillation chamber for the engine.
Lets see, there was you, your dad, your uncle, and your Great Uncle.
 
What a cool way to bridge the Co-Generation Gap.
 
I don't know if ATF has any statutes to cover moving violations.
 
Fred
,
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 13:50:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HKoCgq015630; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:50:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HKoATX015606; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:50:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:50:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ftZ376RASGTnSQ4tXE5lWfFzBRoXOF7TbUcXRIZmo0SACiNqLIL9ldNgjHpmsReF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006531720504914@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:50:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b3ab494a891d432a0e269daab2a22bfd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.90 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII That is interesting Harry. But why use the feeble electrostatic motors when you can use the helium balloon tethered fair weather field collector voltage-current to make OH and H gas to run a ICE? You can also store the fair weather field energy in a capacitor or storage battery then dump it into a motor. I suppose you could use up to a 13.5 foot whip antenna on your car to pick up the Electronic Smog too. and feed it to your Joe Cell with cathode at chassis ground. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html Maybe Reich's Faraday Shield type Orgone Boxes shut out the outside world for therapy? ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
That is interesting Harry.
But why use the feeble electrostatic motors
when you can use the helium balloon tethered
fair weather field collector voltage-current to make
OH and H gas to run a ICE?
 
You can also store the fair weather field energy in a capacitor
or storage battery then dump it into a motor.
 
I suppose you could use up to a 13.5 foot whip antenna on
your car to pick up the Electronic Smog too. and feed it to your
Joe Cell with cathode at chassis ground.
 
 
 
Maybe Reich's Faraday Shield type Orgone Boxes shut out
the outside world for therapy?
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 14:08:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HL8FsN025355; Wed, 17 May 2006 14:08:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HL8DCB025337; Wed, 17 May 2006 14:08:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:08:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517165304.03e13c90@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:08:02 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The social impact of cold fusion is up to us to decide In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Sure, but there have been costs too. > >Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental impact >studies are now required by law. That is impossible, even in principle. The social impact of cold fusion, or any other technology, is always a matter of choice. We decide what the impact will be. Any technology can be used for good or evil. Of course some disruption is inevitable, and jobs will be lost, but that can easily be balanced by social improvements and new jobs. But we have to decide that is how things will be. We have to make decisions, set policies and allocate money. When the U.S. built railroads, highways, computers, modern agriculture, the Internet and most other major technology with a society-wide impact, the projects were planned by and paid for mainly by Uncle Sam. So the public had a direct and decisive role in planning the outcome. When the price of gasoline rose in the 1970s, nations in Europe and Japan decided to make changes. They raised gasoline taxes so that fuel cost about $6 per gallon. They improved efficiency. That is why countries like Italy are roughly twice as energy efficient as the US, and why the record high price of oil will have little impact on their economy. I believe Norway and Sweden intend to phase out the use of oil completely in the next 10 or 20 years. They can do this because they deliberately set out to change their society 30 years ago. We could have done the same but we chose not to. If we had joined Italy, France and the others, the U.S. would now be a member of OPEC. We would be exporting oil and we would be delighted that the price has reached $72 per barrel. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 14:34:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HLYgUS003631; Wed, 17 May 2006 14:34:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HLYeMK003614; Wed, 17 May 2006 14:34:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:34:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: Butanol Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:34:36 -0500 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BE6D4B3@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Butanol Thread-Index: AcZ5+bIXgYQirtfmRCyTRWxA2QNjaA== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2006 21:34:38.0392 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3053B80:01C679F9] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4HLYccu003591 Resent-Message-ID: <_W4ScB.A.a4.wb5aEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I must confess I've never heard of this. It sounds somewhat astonishing. http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol A gasoline substitute that's cheap and fully equal in BTU energy From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 16:03:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HN3oRG005749; Wed, 17 May 2006 16:03:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HN3lgU005724; Wed, 17 May 2006 16:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:03:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:03:39 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8481D44CF1340-1C18-49B6@mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-220065317202027268@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-220065317202027268@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Towards an Ar-ICE ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.131 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber Geez`Terry. A pickup truck with a camper shell is ideal for hauling a few sacks of corn, <><><><><> Yeah, but this was when my dad was a mere teen and I was not even a twinkle. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 17:23:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I0N131002674; Wed, 17 May 2006 17:23:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I0N0KT002636; Wed, 17 May 2006 17:23:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:23:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060518002257528.80FC15C00082@mwinf3113.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060518002258.00bcae0c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 01:22:58 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Butanol Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:34 pm 17/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: >I must confess I've never heard of this. It sounds somewhat >astonishing. > >http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol > >A gasoline substitute that's cheap and fully equal in BTU energy Sounds good to me. One learns something everyday on Vortex. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 13:47:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4HKl8rQ013787; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:47:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4HKl77L013765; Wed, 17 May 2006 13:47:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:47:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=0kVHJVkvKMcD9V63T9VKx0O+c5KWn3S+dG2CKyq53TveuwHI5aT4wx4IVV5g5ptRQssoqWYAXsfb11hYEEpdRsPZMaDmlsvcAu1sv4fA4+/DH449Oqc8nf3DcDKmodnms9zlEpnAFCATmu1P7VFKD4JQ1AENyPakpeL78RfcLGs= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060517161725.01dec070@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:18:41 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: The efficacy of legally sanctioned social impact studies went all the way downhill when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital. P. At 02:25 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a > >> horrendous > >>> impact on the real world. > >> > >> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a > >> horrendous impact on the real world." > >> > >> Fill in the blank and take a number... > > > > Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made > > into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery > > in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, > > agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. > > > > - Jed > > > > > >Sure, but there have been costs too. > >Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental impact >studies are now required by law. > >Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 19:28:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I2RjqD017359; Wed, 17 May 2006 19:27:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I2RgVr017337; Wed, 17 May 2006 19:27:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:27:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Betteries Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:27:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCF9C@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCF9C@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 18 May 2006 02:27:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4I2Rdm8017301 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Tue, 16 May 2006 08:23:52 -0500: Hi, [snip] >True, but in this case we are storing the best form of energy, >electricity as opposed to a car engine. You might need cheaper >electricity to make this >gadget more than a marginal improvement over what we're stuck with now. It may not be an improvement AFA energy is concerned, but it would be quieter and produce no smog, both points in its favor. Furthermore, the electricity can be produced from renewable sources, and hence need not rely on fossil fuels, thus mitigating the greenhouse effect. > > >20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also "a bit >painful", but we use them anyway. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:09:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I398f6032508; Wed, 17 May 2006 20:09:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I39619032489; Wed, 17 May 2006 20:09:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:09:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Converting "efficient radiation" Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:09:04 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7von62l1lut94gp76qqjm0pbdar9ggfsq2@4ax.com> References: <1561246691.1147805218288.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> In-Reply-To: <1561246691.1147805218288.JavaMail.root@fepweb11> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.55.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 18 May 2006 03:09:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4I393jO032459 Resent-Message-ID: <2yXpIC.A.l7H.SV-aEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Tue, 16 May 2006 11:46:58 -0700: Hi, [snip] >* 40 times higher power to weight ratio. [snip] >* Can be applied to airplane, big ship, 18 wheeler, SUV, passenger car, even down to carry on power generator applications. [snip] >I would just like to see this potential design get a fair shake at the table. I agree. If it really does have a 40 fold better ptwr, then especially light aircraft would seem like a natural application to start with. Besides these tend to be more carefully monitored and maintained than automobiles, so any potential problems such as stress related failure are more likely to be noticed before causing problems. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 17 20:42:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I3ftan011093; Wed, 17 May 2006 20:41:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I3fsBV011078; Wed, 17 May 2006 20:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:40:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060517161725.01dec070@pop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Marx was a social theorist rather than a social engineer. The problem with earlier social engineering projects is that the social engineer had acquired political power, which meant they could not be held legally and financially liable for their failures. We are comfortable with the idea of physical engineering because mechanical, structural and electrical engineers are held to account financially and legally for the harm they may cause. Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > The efficacy of legally sanctioned social impact studies went all the way > downhill when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital. > > P. > > > > At 02:25 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> Jed Rothwell wrote: >> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> >>>>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a >>>> horrendous >>>>> impact on the real world. >>>> >>>> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a >>>> horrendous impact on the real world." >>>> >>>> Fill in the blank and take a number... >>> >>> Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made >>> into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery >>> in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, >>> agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. >>> >>> - Jed >>> >>> >> >> Sure, but there have been costs too. >> >> Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental impact >> studies are now required by law. >> >> Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 00:51:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I7p5mI026287; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:51:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I7p3Ru026272; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:51:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JQV2kkr/UWJGfjt49my6iFvvvcROUK0d8Ei4Uu+i7Z4NDgtuikmm2Fhnv3Oc6mdK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541875052261@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 01:50:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f5ad997481a61157499c6ba6e7e4e63b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interfacial Energy Etc. Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension Effect of NaOH (raises surface tension of water) Detergents lower surface tension. Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Interfacial Energy Etc.
 
Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the
Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface.
 
 
Effect of NaOH (raises  surface tension of water)
 
Detergents lower surface tension.
 
Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 01:43:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I8hjP1010845; Thu, 18 May 2006 01:43:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I8hh9o010829; Thu, 18 May 2006 01:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 01:43:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qR8ZwHbzLUJDIDRCAV3/11vuceF8yO7GHtj7mDckTc/3yKMTSY0quYZ+W1pmfSt3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541884336521@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 02:43:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94028512c4bda3650497c1105f618983b2c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy Surface energy quantifies the disruption of chemical bonds that occurs when a surface is created. In the physics of solids, surfaces must be intrinsically less energetically favourable than the bulk of a material; otherwise there would be a driving force for surfaces to be created, and surface is all there would be" Beta-Aether Overpressure Flat Space, Frank? :-) "If the cutting is done reversibly (see reversible), then conservation of energy means that the energy consumed by the cutting process will be equal to the energy inherent in the two new surfaces created." Good. How much energy does it take to "atomize" a cubic centimeter of water down to 1.0 micron diameter spheres? How much "Free Energy" comes from the spread of a milliliter (1.0E-6 cubic meter) of water over a 2,000 square meter Water-Metal or Water-Metal Oxide Interface? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/18/2006 1:50:33 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Interfacial Energy Etc. Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension Effect of NaOH (raises surface tension of water) Detergents lower surface tension. Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
Surface energy quantifies the disruption of chemical bonds that occurs when a surface is created. In the physics of solids, surfaces must be intrinsically less energetically favourable than the bulk of a material; otherwise there would be a driving force for surfaces to be created, and surface is all there would be"
 
Beta-Aether Overpressure Flat Space, Frank?  :-)
 
"If the cutting is done reversibly (see reversible), then conservation of energy means that the energy consumed by the cutting process will be equal to the energy inherent in the two new surfaces created."
Good.
 
How much energy does it take to "atomize" a cubic centimeter
of water down to 1.0 micron diameter spheres?
How much "Free Energy" comes from the spread of a milliliter
(1.0E-6 cubic meter) of water over a 2,000 square meter Water-Metal
or Water-Metal Oxide Interface?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/18/2006 1:50:33 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

Interfacial Energy Etc.
 
Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the
Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface.
 
 
Effect of NaOH (raises  surface tension of water)
 
Detergents lower surface tension.
 
Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 02:30:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4I9Uep6026120; Thu, 18 May 2006 02:30:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4I9Ucm2026079; Thu, 18 May 2006 02:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 02:30:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=b6OmSTdsa4K3qJgjN1mNb2s3c5HKfIVRVMsStWJIzd7U0kFwscK2hXNkCiuu1Gs/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541893026242@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Butanol Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 03:30:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c5c808ad6806acafa295db8dea4078b8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.87 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol "In this process, biomass feedstock is first fed to the bacteria Clostridium tyrobutyricum, where a large percentage is converted into butyric acid and hydrogen. In the second process, the butyric acid is fed to the bacteria Clostridium acetobutylicum, where it is converted into butanol. Ramey has claimed a 42% butanol yield from this process." Cows make Butyric Acid in their rumens, but it's hard to pipe it out. http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/dlc-me/zoo/zacmain.html "The rumen stinks. This is because microbes in the rumen produce stinky organic acids. The billions of microbes in the rumen quickly use up all the oxygen. Because there is no oxygen, the rumen is anaerobic. When oxygen is lacking, microbes must get their energy from anaerobic respiration or from fermentation. In anaerobic respiration, microbes breathe compounds other than oxygen for energy. Fermentation is the breaking down of organic molecules into smaller molecules such as organic acids like butyric acid and valeric acid that stink." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid "Butyric acid, IUPAC name n-Butanoic acid, or normal butyric acid, is a carboxylic acid with structural formula CH3CH2CH2-COOH. It is notably found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
"In this process, biomass feedstock is first fed to the bacteria Clostridium tyrobutyricum, where a large percentage is converted into butyric acid and hydrogen. In the second process, the butyric acid is fed to the bacteria Clostridium acetobutylicum, where it is converted into butanol. Ramey has claimed a 42% butanol yield from this process."
 
Cows make Butyric Acid in their rumens, but it's hard to pipe it out.
 
 
"The rumen stinks. This is because microbes in the rumen produce stinky organic acids. The billions of microbes in the rumen quickly use up all the oxygen. Because there is no oxygen, the rumen is anaerobic. When oxygen is lacking, microbes must get their energy from anaerobic respiration or from fermentation. In anaerobic respiration, microbes breathe compounds other than oxygen for energy. Fermentation is the breaking down of organic molecules into smaller molecules such as organic acids like butyric acid and valeric acid that stink."
 
 
"Butyric acid, IUPAC name n-Butanoic acid, or normal butyric acid, is a carboxylic acid with structural formula CH3CH2CH2-COOH. It is notably found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)."
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 03:26:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IAQRP7012294; Thu, 18 May 2006 03:26:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IAQN5V012263; Thu, 18 May 2006 03:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 03:26:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=epw256rLSZun1txL+OgCI73L0yLhkcGKsfbeUTOROLXpEE2umeBeNN6GxzyyFt1b; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541810267427@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Butanol Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 04:26:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940074f8857b8a52ab7a59d044a06adfb96350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.172 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I think Liposuction or microwaving fat from overfed hogs to get Stearic Acid, then cracking it to Decanol-Biodiesel would be more cost effective. FDA approved methodology, of course. http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/liposuction/what.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid "Stearic acid, also called octadecanoic acid, is one of the useful types of saturated fatty acids that comes from many animal and vegetable fats and oils. It is a waxy solid, and its chemical formula is CH3(CH2)16COOH. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-decanol "1-Decanol is a straight chain fatty alcohol with ten carbon atoms and the molecular formula CH3(CH2)9OH. It is a colorless viscous liquid that is insoluble " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/18/2006 3:31:16 AM Subject: Re: Butanol > http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol "In this process, biomass feedstock is first fed to the bacteria Clostridium tyrobutyricum, where a large percentage is converted into butyric acid and hydrogen. In the second process, the butyric acid is fed to the bacteria Clostridium acetobutylicum, where it is converted into butanol. Ramey has claimed a 42% butanol yield from this process." Cows make Butyric Acid in their rumens, but it's hard to pipe it out. http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/dlc-me/zoo/zacmain.html "The rumen stinks. This is because microbes in the rumen produce stinky organic acids. The billions of microbes in the rumen quickly use up all the oxygen. Because there is no oxygen, the rumen is anaerobic. When oxygen is lacking, microbes must get their energy from anaerobic respiration or from fermentation. In anaerobic respiration, microbes breathe compounds other than oxygen for energy. Fermentation is the breaking down of organic molecules into smaller molecules such as organic acids like butyric acid and valeric acid that stink." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid "Butyric acid, IUPAC name n-Butanoic acid, or normal butyric acid, is a carboxylic acid with structural formula CH3CH2CH2-COOH. It is notably found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I think Liposuction or microwaving fat from overfed hogs
to get Stearic Acid, then cracking it to Decanol-Biodiesel would be
more cost effective. 
 
FDA approved methodology, of course.
 
 
 
"Stearic acid, also called octadecanoic acid, is one of the useful types of saturated fatty acids that comes from many animal and vegetable fats and oils. It is a waxy solid, and its chemical formula is CH3(CH2)16COOH. "
 
 
"1-Decanol is a straight chain fatty alcohol with ten carbon atoms and the molecular formula CH3(CH2)9OH. It is a colorless viscous liquid that is insoluble "
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/18/2006 3:31:16 AM
Subject: Re: Butanol

 
"In this process, biomass feedstock is first fed to the bacteria Clostridium tyrobutyricum, where a large percentage is converted into butyric acid and hydrogen. In the second process, the butyric acid is fed to the bacteria Clostridium acetobutylicum, where it is converted into butanol. Ramey has claimed a 42% butanol yield from this process."
 
Cows make Butyric Acid in their rumens, but it's hard to pipe it out.
 
 
"The rumen stinks. This is because microbes in the rumen produce stinky organic acids. The billions of microbes in the rumen quickly use up all the oxygen. Because there is no oxygen, the rumen is anaerobic. When oxygen is lacking, microbes must get their energy from anaerobic respiration or from fermentation. In anaerobic respiration, microbes breathe compounds other than oxygen for energy. Fermentation is the breaking down of organic molecules into smaller molecules such as organic acids like butyric acid and valeric acid that stink."
 
 
"Butyric acid, IUPAC name n-Butanoic acid, or normal butyric acid, is a carboxylic acid with structural formula CH3CH2CH2-COOH. It is notably found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether)."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 03:28:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IASdhw013420; Thu, 18 May 2006 03:28:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IASciQ013404; Thu, 18 May 2006 03:28:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 03:28:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=jQlqZ4895XEw6vohPcI4WoVv4Rv98GBFvd0es28glKbaiTaLlQ6bKM3RL9pHlAWp/+ZzvYKwUy3uO1kg5W5uiwPtAf1OgiHGgGHFxFo4mxBhy3G1IZtS/tsfLIB9PpVZ86yS+0JskG6XhJ7MZQs5NIWVbUB+Jk5oxoH1L76mL54= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060518062302.00ba6ed0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:26:21 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060517161725.01dec070@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Yes - but one other thing... With engineering we more or less know what we're dealing with; the interactions of materials are quite predictable. Can't say the same for "society" - which is another name for a mass of unpredictable people... despite our ability to use statistics as a tool. P. At 11:40 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Marx was a social theorist rather than a social engineer. The problem with >earlier social engineering projects is that the social engineer had acquired >political power, which meant they could not be held legally and financially >liable for their failures. We are comfortable with the idea of physical >engineering because mechanical, structural and electrical engineers are >held to account financially and legally for the harm they may cause. > >Harry > >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > The efficacy of legally sanctioned social impact studies went all the way > > downhill when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital. > > > > P. > > > > > > > > At 02:25 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> > >>> Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> > >>>>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a > >>>> horrendous > >>>>> impact on the real world. > >>>> > >>>> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a > >>>> horrendous impact on the real world." > >>>> > >>>> Fill in the blank and take a number... > >>> > >>> Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made > >>> into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery > >>> in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, > >>> agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. > >>> > >>> - Jed > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Sure, but there have been costs too. > >> > >> Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental > impact > >> studies are now required by law. > >> > >> Harry > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 07:48:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IEmKmZ025490; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:48:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IEmIUN025472; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:48:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=p7EdrN1qGL+93J1VVW6M/gpQQiaiMKh9zYe1l5pQ3JZMf9HfxaSEIQB2ZM95ksd0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006541814488752@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:48:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940377f0ceebbaa73439022207ae38733b4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.222 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Home recipes for dishwashers suggests a 50-50 mix of Borax and Baking Soda. In the electrolysis cell might this aid the interfacial Water-Metal or Water-Metal Oxide "wetting" or will it act in a deleterious effect? With our cell adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Home recipes for dishwashers suggests a 50-50 mix
of Borax and Baking Soda.
In the electrolysis cell might this aid the interfacial
Water-Metal or Water-Metal Oxide "wetting" or
will it act in a deleterious effect?
With our cell adding a very small amount of baking
soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up
to 21 milliamperes.
Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that
pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 09:19:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IGJ5xs012535; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:19:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IGJ3T5012517; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:19:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:19:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=actei9fRZX4fysmsX+OpC4WphDU4RjtovRjj2iifZy1ihxknvwEogEqgqMSFd2F+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065418161852944@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cornsene Diesel-Biodiesel Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:18:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eb3758b485b5915d0d3d2261d4fc75cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.115 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII One hot summer night in 1955 I decided to see what would happen if I cooked Cornstarch with motor oil. When it hit the ~ 60 deg C gelatinization temperature of the starch it swelled into a gelatinous mess, that looks like it could be stirred into a good motor fuel. Cornaline "oxygenated gasoline" from cornmeal without the energy intensive ethanol production too? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
One hot summer night in 1955 I decided to see what would
happen if I cooked Cornstarch with motor oil.
When it hit the ~ 60 deg C gelatinization temperature
of the starch it  swelled into a gelatinous mess, that looks like
it could be stirred into a good motor fuel. 
Cornaline "oxygenated gasoline" from cornmeal without the
energy intensive ethanol production too?  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 09:31:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IGVM0j018181; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:31:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IGVKgL018153; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:31:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:31:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=evyKW13AFEMo+2hGOQeRsjTqy0apj6Exef3JoMQV2AujgiJQ29pPt23hmG4XHPJF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065418163113288@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cornsene Diesel-Biodiesel Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:31:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401ff89a1d084dbcf7effdb16d4d890526350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.115 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Not recommended for Grits, Terry. Try Peanut oil instead. :-) Sent: 5/18/2006 10:20:33 AM Subject: Re: Cornsene Diesel-Biodiesel One hot summer night in 1955 I decided to see what would happen if I cooked Cornstarch with motor oil. When it hit the ~ 60 deg C gelatinization temperature of the starch it swelled into a gelatinous mess, that looks like it could be stirred into a good motor fuel. Cornaline "oxygenated gasoline" from cornmeal without the energy intensive ethanol production too? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Not recommended for Grits, Terry.  Try Peanut oil instead.  :-)
Sent: 5/18/2006 10:20:33 AM
Subject: Re: Cornsene Diesel-Biodiesel

One hot summer night in 1955 I decided to see what would
happen if I cooked Cornstarch with motor oil.
When it hit the ~ 60 deg C gelatinization temperature
of the starch it  swelled into a gelatinous mess, that looks like
it could be stirred into a good motor fuel. 
Cornaline "oxygenated gasoline" from cornmeal without the
energy intensive ethanol production too?  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 09:49:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IGmufY025960; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:48:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IGmtj5025932; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:48:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060518123029.03d36638@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:48:49 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The social impact of cold fusion is up to us to decide In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517165304.03e13c90@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060517165304.03e13c90@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Of course some disruption is inevitable, and jobs will be lost, but >that can easily be balanced by social improvements and new jobs. But >we have to decide that is how things will be. We have to make >decisions, set policies and allocate money. I realize that such decisions and policies sometimes interfere with the mechanisms of pure free-market capitalism, and this reduces efficiency. If economic theory is correct, cold fusion technology would be propagated at the fastest possible rate if we allow Ayn Rand style capitalism a free hand to destroy jobs and disrupt society. This might also bring in the most monetary profit. Capitalism is essential, after all. But it is not the only essential institution, and society is not one-dimensional. If we must slow down the commercialization of cold fusion slightly, and reduce profit somewhat in order to preserve a measure of social stability and happiness, we should. It is worth the trade-off. Anyway, at this stage, capitalism has done nothing to develop cold fusion, so it is not the be-all end-all solution to all problems. So far, all progress in cold fusion has been made by academic professors who are is far removed from capitalist competitive pressure as anyone can be. Many other essential breakthroughs have come from outside the economic system. The Wrights, for example, gave no thought to profit when they invented the airplane. They thought it would never pay. They acted purely out of curiosity and the love of learning. The people have developed the Internet had no thought of profit, and they never made one extra dollar from their work. They were all government employed programmers, doing their job at published government salary levels. These salaries are generous but they include no extra incentive payment, even though the Internet is one of the most important technologies in history. The laws of economics are constraints, similar to the laws that govern structural engineering. If you ignore the laws of structural engineering, your buildings will collapse. But within the constraints these laws define, you can create an enormous variety of different structures. Some structures, such as an airplane hangar, will make extraordinarily efficient use of the materials to cover the largest possible area. Other structures, such as a Victorian house, will waste a lot of materials to produce a charming effect. Some economic structures produce fantastic profits in a short time, such as WallMart superstores. Others are inefficient and wasteful, such as Japanese mom-and-pop retail stores. But these small stores take care of many people and they enliven neighborhoods and make life more pleasant. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 09:53:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IGqmhT028029; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:52:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IGqkjV028002; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:52:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:52:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:51:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060518062302.00ba6ed0@pop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7NOAsC.A.X1G.eZKbEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: People are apparently unpredictable because we spend too much time trying to eliminate people's "warts" as conceived by this or that religion. People become more predictable when we look beyond their "warts" to what really motivates them to be good to others and to themselves. Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > Yes - but one other thing... With engineering we more or less know what > we're dealing with; the interactions of materials are quite > predictable. Can't say the same for "society" - which is another name for > a mass of unpredictable people... despite our ability to use statistics as > a tool. > > P. > > > > At 11:40 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> Marx was a social theorist rather than a social engineer. The problem with >> earlier social engineering projects is that the social engineer had acquired >> political power, which meant they could not be held legally and financially >> liable for their failures. We are comfortable with the idea of physical >> engineering because mechanical, structural and electrical engineers are >> held to account financially and legally for the harm they may cause. >> >> Harry >> >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> The efficacy of legally sanctioned social impact studies went all the way >>> downhill when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital. >>> >>> P. >>> >>> >>> >>> At 02:25 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>>> Jed Rothwell wrote: >>>> >>>>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a >>>>>> horrendous >>>>>>> impact on the real world. >>>>>> >>>>>> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a >>>>>> horrendous impact on the real world." >>>>>> >>>>>> Fill in the blank and take a number... >>>>> >>>>> Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made >>>>> into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery >>>>> in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, >>>>> agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. >>>>> >>>>> - Jed >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sure, but there have been costs too. >>>> >>>> Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental >> impact >>>> studies are now required by law. >>>> >>>> Harry >>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 11:42:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IIgPsp018163; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:42:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IIgMqq018136; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:42:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:42:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <318.46c7072.319e1a09@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:42:17 EDT Subject: Re: OT: the political economy of energy distribution To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147977737" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: YES Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147977737 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/2006 4:51:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@freenet.carleton.ca writes: In the 24th century there is no need for money in Gene Roddenberry's world of Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades before Star Trek first appeared on television... http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution Harry Thanks for the above link. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147977737 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/11/2006 4:51:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca writes:

In the 24th century there is no need for m= oney in Gene Roddenberry's
world of Star Trek.

Gene Roddenberry ne= ver really explained how such a society could function
without money, but= a possible system was outlined decades before Star Trek
first appeared o= n television...

http://www.technocracy.org/?p=3D/documents/pamphlets/= energy-distribution

Harry
Thanks for the above link.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147977737-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 11:59:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IIwqkY032018; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:58:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IIwmDp031974; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:58:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:58:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <462.bcbc4b.319e1de1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:58:41 EDT Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147978721" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: YES Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147978721 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/2006 11:44:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rockcastle@lakeside1.net writes: The Muslims think the west is their enemy. They think that all 'crusades' come from the 'west'. They are wrong. They forgot about Hulagu Khan the avenging Nestorian Christian that almost wiped Islam from the face of the planet. They look guardedly at the West and ignore the East. When India grows desparate enough for energy, the road through Pakistan, Baluchistan, lower Iran, Iraq, Syria, and the Saudi lands will be all to open and irresistably inviting. With tens of millions of troops, what middle eastern army would have a chance against them. It took India all of three days to finish off a huge army in East Pakistan in the troubles before the Bangladeshi revolution. . Thanks for the above information. Even though birth control has not worked, I still encourage it as the best alternative to solve overpopulation problems. If just one generation of Third World citizens can reduce the number of children in half, then they have reduced their population in half later on. With high technology we should be able to offer better if not perfect birth control options for free in the Third world and offer incentives and rewards such as better jobs for those who have fewer children. Others have sent me emails hinting that high tech viral warfare may reduce the overpopulation in the Third World. Unfortunately, in the West mind control and beam weapons slavery systems have been used secretly by the Third World and the US government and other governments to reduce the birth rate of the minority white cultures, while the majority nonwhites overpopulate and are not targeted by their own beam weapons systems to reduce their populations also. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147978721 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/11/2006 11:44:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rockcas= tle@lakeside1.net writes:
The Muslims think the west is their enemy.&nbs= p; They think that all
'crusades' come from the 'west'.  They are w= rong.  They forgot about
Hulagu Khan the avenging Nestorian Christia= n that almost wiped Islam from
the face of the planet.  They look gu= ardedly at the West and ignore the East. 
When India grows desparat= e enough for energy, the road through Pakistan,
Baluchistan, lower Iran,=20= Iraq, Syria, and the Saudi lands will be all to open
and irresistably in= viting.  With tens of millions of troops, what middle
eastern army=20= would have a chance against them.  It took India all of three
days t= o finish off a huge army in East Pakistan in the troubles before the
Bang= ladeshi revolution. .
Thanks for the above information.  Even though birth control has n= ot worked, I still encourage it as the best alternative to solve overpopulat= ion problems.  If just one generation of Third World citizens can reduc= e the number of children in half, then they have reduced their population in= half later on.  With high technology we should be able to offer better= if not perfect birth control options for free in the Third world and offer=20= incentives and rewards such as better jobs for those who have fewer children= . 
 
Others have sent me emails hinting that high tech viral warfare may red= uce the overpopulation in the Third World.  Unfortunately, in the West=20= mind control and beam weapons slavery systems have been used secretly by the= Third World and the US government and other governments to reduce the birth= rate of the minority white cultures, while the majority nonwhites overpopul= ate and are not targeted by their own beam weapons systems to reduce their p= opulations also.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147978721-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 12:16:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IJFvNf011905; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:16:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IJFtQf011880; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:15:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:15:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060518150401.03f16338@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:15:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness In-Reply-To: <462.bcbc4b.319e1de1@aol.com> References: <462.bcbc4b.319e1de1@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <343Vy.A.f5C.rfMbEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ThomasClark123@aol.com wrote: >Thanks for the above information. Even though birth control has not >worked . . . This is complete nonsense, by the way. Birth control has worked magnificently in every part of the world. It is one of the greatest triumphs of medical technology and public health in history. Without modern contraceptives, the population would have spiralled wildly out of control after 1850, and billions of people would have starved to death. The situation is bad now, with 2 billion people living in dire poverty. But without contraceptives the numbers would be far higher, and millions would die every day in unthinkable squalor. That is not happening. And the contrary, living conditions in China and India are gradually improving. Only in Africa are things going rapidly downhill, and this is mainly caused by genocidal wars which are deliberate policy. Population is growing much too quickly in the Third World. The absolute number of new mouths to feed is still growing at record levels in most Third World countries. But the rate of population growth in every nation has fallen drastically, and this would not have happened without the widespread use of contraceptives. Population growth in Europe, the US and Japan has stabilized. In Japan the population last year declined for the first time in modern history. (Some Japanese leaders are upset about this but I think the country would be a lot more comfortable with about half the present population.) If the rest of the world shared our prosperity and good medical care, population everywhere would be stable, and pollution and pressure on the ecosystem would soon be greatly reduced. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 12:44:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IJi8hK026226; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:44:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IJi7UE026201; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:44:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:44:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,142,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1175925023:sNHT20697092" Message-ID: <82251547.1147981442875.JavaMail.root@fepweb05> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:44:02 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Emergence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4IJi39w026138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Recently stated: "The laws of economics are constraints, similar to the laws that govern structural engineering. If you ignore the laws of structural engineering, your buildings will collapse. But within the constraints these laws define, you can create an enormous variety of different structures. Some structures, such as an airplane hangar, will make extraordinarily efficient use of the materials to cover the largest possible area. Other structures, such as a Victorian house, will waste a lot of materials to produce a charming effect. Some economic structures produce fantastic profits in a short time, such as WallMart superstores. Others are inefficient and wasteful, such as Japanese mom-and-pop retail stores. But these small stores take care of many people and they enliven neighborhoods and make life more pleasant." - Jed Jed's thoughts on this matter brings to mind something I've been pondered on and off in my life for years, a concept called "Emergence." Theories of Emergent behavior help explain why dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores thrive. It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our cities deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, as compared to being torn down and replaced with another ill thought out housing project, and with disastrous consequences. First, humor me a second while I fill in some hopefully entertaining background. On a recent family recent trip to Portland, Oregon, to deposit my father's ashes in the Pacific Ocean (his spawning grounds), we visited Powell's Books, one of the most well known used bookstores in the country. Browsing through one of the long corridors in the science section my eyes scanned past an off-color light gray-blue book. It was of an average size, not very impressive looking book at first glance. The title said "Emergence." It continued with, "The Connected lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software." I was intrigued. It might help to understand that in my youth I, too, had studied the social behavior of ants. A kindred spirit! During a younger and more inquisitive time in my life I maintained several full-fledged ant colonies which included the queen. I had been fascinated by the complex organizational structure these tiny creatures exhibited. How is it, I often wondered, that such seemingly mindless little creatures with brains the size of, well, the size of an ant, were capable of organizing their living conditions into highly complex social structures as if the entire colony was behaving like a single-minded organism? I read on. "THIS BOOK IS ABOUT THE MYSTERY OF WHY THE WHOLE IS SOMETIMES SMARTER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS" What did the author mean by the term "Emergence?" I happened to notice the author's name, and that's when I got the biggest surprise of all. There, in capital letters was the name: "STEVEN JOHNSON" (No relation!) Not only were the author's ideas on emergence personally compelling he possessed my name. Out of the entire bookstore how did I manage to, almost as if I was an ant, ambling endlessly through a labyrinth of bookshelves find my way to this particular isle in the science section, and how did my eyes manage to focus on this particular nondescript book out of the thousands of others littering the shelves. It was an eerie kind of synchronicity, one that I had not personally experienced to that degree of conscious awareness in decades. Of course, I bought the book. I finished it over the following days absorbing as much as my mind could take in. The characteristics of Emergence, I discovered, exists in a surprising number of seemingly unrelated manifestations. It helps explain the formation of neighborhoods, both the highly successful and not so successful ghetto habitats that have emerged from our cities. It helps explain the occasionally unpredictable idiosyncrasies of economic models, like capitalism. Emergence helps explain the surprising robust evolution and success of a high-tech phenomenon called "public domain software." It helps explain why our brains, while physically hardwired as a jumble of excruciatingly slow carbon-based biological networks can, nevertheless, easily exceed the cognitive power of the fastest silicon-based super computers currently in existence. The rules of emergence help explain why there is a surprising lack of control news networks must now contend with as they vainly try to choose what is "newsworthy". For those who might be interested in designing their own Emergent data models (and play God for a while!) I would highly recommend downloading a free public domain software package called StarLogo. You can find the package at: http://education.mit.edu/starlogo/starterpage.html Some of you old farts might remember this programming language was once called "Logo". It was one of the first programming languages developed with children in mind. The original intention was to interest tiny tykes in the joys of learning the basic rules of programming languages on personal computers. It would appear that the Logo language has evolved just a tad over the decades. I has now become a robust data modeling "parallel" programming language. It is capable of modeling anything from traffic patterns, slime mold, the spread of plagues, population growth patterns, and quantum physics. I downloaded the Starlogo programming package about two months ago and gave it a spin around the block. It has been a very entertaining and educational experience. It was fun playing God. I also discovered, it's not easy assuming the responsibilities of God! Most of my universes didn't far out so well! Lots of surprises. Lots of duds. I dare say it might be possible, assuming one is ambitious enough, to model the behavior or hydrinos as they go through their various incarnations using this programming language, just to see what might happen. However, I'll leave that assignment to others, as I already have a very full dinner plate. I have some final thoughts to share concerning my profound synchronistic-like experience of locating Steven Johnson's book on Emergence. I realize there continues to be protracted debates on whether synchronicity truly exists. In my own case, the only intelligible thing I can say is that if "God does not play with dice", as Einstein once blurted out in one of the most memorable quotes in the annals of scientific history it would seem to suggest that, at least in my universe, I occasionally experience events as a series of improbabilities. Perhaps its simply the fact that if the TAO is to be held responsible for creating all of the Emergent rules of random happenstance, it would make a form of wry sense to me to occasionally leave in a few flaws here and there in the Grand Scheme of Things - just to see what happens. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 12:53:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IJr52X032663; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:53:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IJr2dp032603; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:53:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:53:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Re: OT: the political economy of energy distribution Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:52:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67A8A.B9CB1ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <318.46c7072.319e1a09@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67A8A.B9CB1ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yikes! Even with grand illustrations of failure why is it not recognized that the prime survival instinct in every living thing runs contrary to communistic ideology? The romance of homogenous equality goes right out the window as soon as the have-nots become haves. Isn't "Animal Farm" on the required reading list in schools anymore? For the latest example look no further than Zimbabwe and their accelerating 1000%+ inflation from Mugabe's Orwellian-style redistribution of land resources. Tuesday, January 1, 2002 ...1 US Dollar = 57.34300 Zimbabwe Dollar Wednesday, January 1, 2003 ... 1 US Dollar = 57.14500 Zimbabwe Dollar Thursday, January 1, 2004 ... 1 US Dollar = 818.520 Zimbabwe Dollar Saturday, January 1, 2005 ... 1 US Dollar = 5,600.10 Zimbabwe Dollar Sunday, January 1, 2006 ... 1 US Dollar = 82,902.0 Zimbabwe Dollar Thursday, May 18, 2006 ... 1 US Dollar = 101,874 Zimbabwe Dollar Perhaps just a cynical viewpoint, but humanity organized >>anything<< is the few looking to control the many for the benefit of the self appointed elite; religion, politics, sex, work, play, etc. -john -----Original Message----- From: ThomasClark123@aol.com [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 1:42 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: ThomasClark123@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: the political economy of energy distribution In a message dated 5/11/2006 4:51:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@freenet.carleton.ca writes: In the 24th century there is no need for money in Gene Roddenberry's world of Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry never really explained how such a society could function without money, but a possible system was outlined decades before Star Trek first appeared on television... http://www.technocracy.org/?p=/documents/pamphlets/energy-distribution Harry Thanks for the above link. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67A8A.B9CB1ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yikes!  Even with grand illustrations of failure why = is it not=20 recognized that the prime survival instinct in every living thing runs = contrary=20 to communistic ideology?  The romance of homogenous equality goes = right out=20 the window as soon as the have-nots become haves.  Isn't "Animal = Farm" on=20 the required reading list in schools anymore?  For the latest=20 example look no further than Zimbabwe and their accelerating = 1000%+=20 inflation from Mugabe's Orwellian-style redistribution of land=20 resources.
 
Tuesday, January 1, 2002 ...1 US Dollar =3D 57.34300 Zimbabwe = Dollar
Wednesday, January 1, 2003 ... = 1 US=20 Dollar =3D 57.14500 Zimbabwe Dollar

Thursday, January 1, 2004 ... 1 US Dollar =3D 818.520 = Zimbabwe Dollar=20

Saturday, January 1, = 2005 ... 1 US Dollar =3D 5,600.10 = Zimbabwe=20 Dollar
Sunday, January 1, 2006=20 ... 1 US Dollar =3D 82,902.0 Zimbabwe Dollar
Thursday, May 18, 2006 ... 1 US Dollar =3D 101,874 Zimbabwe = Dollar=20
 
Perhaps just a cynical viewpoint, = but=20 humanity organized  >>anything<<  is the few = looking to=20 control the many for the benefit of the self appointed elite; religion,=20 politics, sex, work, play, etc.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = ThomasClark123@aol.com=20 [mailto:ThomasClark123@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 = 1:42=20 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc:=20 ThomasClark123@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: the political economy = of=20 energy distribution

In a message dated 5/11/2006 4:51:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 eo200@freenet.carleton.ca writes:

In the 24th century there is no need for money in Gene=20 Roddenberry's
world of Star Trek.

Gene Roddenberry never = really=20 explained how such a society could function
without money, but a = possible=20 system was outlined decades before Star Trek
first appeared on=20 = television...

http://www.technocracy.org/?p=3D/documents/pamphlets= /energy-distribution

Harry
Thanks for the above link.
 
Best = Regards,=20
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Presiden= t Thomas=20 D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/email= form.html,=20
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/person= al.html
Architectural=20 Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
Star = Haven=20 Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiati= on Health=20 Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron = Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Making=20 a difference one person at a time
Get informed. Inform=20 others
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C67A8A.B9CB1ED0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:07:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IK7UmX006728; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:07:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IK7Smn006703; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:07:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:07:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <2a7.439b573.319e2df2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:07:14 EDT Subject: Re: OT: Bertrand Russell- In Praise of Idleness To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147982834" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147982834 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/18/2006 3:16:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JedRothwell@mindspring.com writes: Birth control has worked magnificently in every part of the world. It is one of the greatest triumphs of medical technology and public health in history. Thanks for this information. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147982834 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/18/2006 3:16:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JedRothw= ell@mindspring.com writes:
Birth control has worked
magnificently in=20= every part of the world. It is one of the greatest
triumphs of medical t= echnology and public health in history.
Thanks for this information.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147982834-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:26:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IKQ3Q6017544; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:26:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IKQ2ve017527; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:26:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:26:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123@aol.com Message-ID: <43d.101b6bf.319e324f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:25:51 EDT Subject: Re: History of Electrostatic motors To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147983951" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1147983951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/17/2006 3:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@freenet.carleton.ca writes: This link has more on the history of electrostatic motors. Includes several illustrations. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html Harry Thanks for the above link. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1147983951 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/17/2006 3:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eo200@fr= eenet.carleton.ca writes:
This link has more on the history of electrost= atic motors.
Includes several illustrations.

http://f3wm.free.fr/s= ciences/jefimenko.html

Harry
Thanks for the above link.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1147983951-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 13:35:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IKZASU022215; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:35:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IKZ8f6022184; Thu, 18 May 2006 13:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:34:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Emergence In-reply-to: <82251547.1147981442875.JavaMail.root@fepweb05> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: > > Jed's thoughts on this matter brings to mind something I've been pondered on > and off in my life for years, a concept called "Emergence." Theories of > Emergent behavior help explain why dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores > thrive. It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our cities > deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, as compared to being torn > down and replaced with another ill thought out housing project, and with > disastrous consequences. I hope you don't mean such neighborhoods deserve to be left run-down. Personally, I think cities should actively develop mixed income neighborhoods. There is no reason why poor and rich can't live in the same neighbourhoods. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 14:20:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ILK4tj010257; Thu, 18 May 2006 14:20:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ILEkL9008063; Thu, 18 May 2006 14:14:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:14:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060518170604.03e7d3f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:14:36 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Emergence In-Reply-To: References: <82251547.1147981442875.JavaMail.root@fepweb05> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores > > thrive. It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our cities > > deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, as compared > to being torn > > down and replaced with another ill thought out housing project, and with > > disastrous consequences. > >I hope you don't mean such neighborhoods deserve to be left run-down. It is surprising, but often they do! That is what the famous urban activist Jane Jacobs said. (She died in April 2006 -- read her obits.) Japanese cities in the 1970s were dilapidated by U.S. standards, especially the collegetowns I used to live in. I used to live in a Meiji-era "nagaya" apartment building with no sanitation and a crowd of eccentrics who made the "Maison Ikkoku" comic book characters look normal in comparison. These places have been "cleaned up" since then. They are now lifeless and soulless. Run-down is okay, as long as there are many people around who are enjoying themselves doing legal activities. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 15:05:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IM55Cd005144; Thu, 18 May 2006 15:05:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IM53n5005119; Thu, 18 May 2006 15:05:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:05:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Butanol Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:04:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7rrp62td7gjkihfreilompppflfmjt1s0k@4ax.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BE6D4B3@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BE6D4B3@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.61] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 18 May 2006 22:04:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4IM4xPe005066 Resent-Message-ID: <16xP6C.A.7PB.P-ObEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Wed, 17 May 2006 16:34:36 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I must confess I've never heard of this. It sounds somewhat >astonishing. > >http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Butanol > >A gasoline substitute that's cheap and fully equal in BTU energy However it may be too toxic to use as a gasoline substitute. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 15:23:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IMNQAq015940; Thu, 18 May 2006 15:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IMNPKm015930; Thu, 18 May 2006 15:23:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:23:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:22:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Emergence In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060518170604.03e7d3f8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores >>> thrive. It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our cities >>> deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, as compared >> to being torn >>> down and replaced with another ill thought out housing project, and with >>> disastrous consequences. >> >> I hope you don't mean such neighborhoods deserve to be left run-down. > > It is surprising, but often they do! That is what the famous urban > activist Jane Jacobs said. (She died in April 2006 -- read her obits.) You are jumping to conclusions. I am not suggesting they be bulldozed. > Japanese cities in the 1970s were dilapidated by U.S. standards, > especially the collegetowns I used to live in. I used to live in a > Meiji-era "nagaya" apartment building with no sanitation and a crowd > of eccentrics who made the "Maison Ikkoku" comic book characters look > normal in comparison. These places have been "cleaned up" since then. > They are now lifeless and soulless. Run-down is okay, as long as > there are many people around who are enjoying themselves doing legal > activities. > > - Jed They probably went over board cleaning up the neighbourhood, but then again not all low income people wish to live like stereotypical bohemians. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 16:03:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IN3QSR002008; Thu, 18 May 2006 16:03:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IN3Pil001996; Thu, 18 May 2006 16:03:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:03:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:02:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The social impact of cold fusion is up to us to decide In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517165304.03e13c90@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Sure, but there have been costs too. >> >> Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental impact >> studies are now required by law. > > That is impossible, even in principle. The social impact of cold > fusion, or any other technology, is always a matter of choice. We > decide what the impact will be. > > Any technology can be used for good > or evil. Yes, but I think we also need to be a little more circumspect of new technology. The new way is not necessarily the better way. > Of course some disruption is inevitable, and jobs will be > lost, but that can easily be balanced by social improvements and new > jobs. But we have to decide that is how things will be. We have to > make decisions, set policies and allocate money. When the U.S. built > railroads, highways, computers, modern agriculture, the Internet and > most other major technology with a society-wide impact, the projects > were planned by and paid for mainly by Uncle Sam. So the public had a > direct and decisive role in planning the outcome. > > When the price of gasoline rose in the 1970s, nations in Europe and > Japan decided to make changes. They raised gasoline taxes so that > fuel cost about $6 per gallon. They improved efficiency. That is why > countries like Italy are roughly twice as energy efficient as the US, > and why the record high price of oil will have little impact on their > economy. I believe Norway and Sweden intend to phase out the use of > oil completely in the next 10 or 20 years. They can do this because > they deliberately set out to change their society 30 years ago. We > could have done the same but we chose not to. If we had joined Italy, > France and the others, the U.S. would now be a member of OPEC. We > would be exporting oil and we would be delighted that the price has > reached $72 per barrel. > > - Jed > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 12:05:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4IJ5WW1004971; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:05:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4IJ5Uxc004948; Thu, 18 May 2006 12:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:05:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=TWhONQmWjzt+BNcqgP2HfYQ8HXXkEJ/LLHizY7P/g6vux+AXr7kfbAh864QQt2LEOQ7JCOyYKLCeinLrWeTp3fy4TR6NabnijSq9RD3x8QyswCW022y2XIm1LZs1sSNrcFZRX4eEdlv8/9NMCtpCjpwbgdLd+Ta01W01cFs0pGE= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060518145816.01e7a488@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:02:45 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Abstract from Josephson, annoying statements by Truzzi In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060518062302.00ba6ed0@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: An interesting way of looking at it. Without going into it too deeply, I've been a "seeker" for many years now (still seeking) and my conclusion is that people have their "warts" with or without religion. A belief system is a belief system no matter what its nature. In fact, the "seeking" path involves an effort to divest oneself of - by observing - one's socially conditioned "robotic" behaviour and become LESS predictable. P. At 12:51 PM 5/18/2006 -0500, you wrote: >People are apparently unpredictable because we spend too much time trying to >eliminate people's "warts" as conceived by this or that religion. People >become more predictable when we look beyond their "warts" to what really >motivates them to be good to others and to themselves. > >Harry > > > >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > Yes - but one other thing... With engineering we more or less know what > > we're dealing with; the interactions of materials are quite > > predictable. Can't say the same for "society" - which is another name for > > a mass of unpredictable people... despite our ability to use statistics as > > a tool. > > > > P. > > > > > > > > At 11:40 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > > >> Marx was a social theorist rather than a social engineer. The problem with > >> earlier social engineering projects is that the social engineer had > acquired > >> political power, which meant they could not be held legally and > financially > >> liable for their failures. We are comfortable with the idea of physical > >> engineering because mechanical, structural and electrical engineers are > >> held to account financially and legally for the harm they may cause. > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> Philip Winestone wrote: > >> > >>> The efficacy of legally sanctioned social impact studies went all the way > >>> downhill when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital. > >>> > >>> P. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> At 02:25 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>>> Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Harry Veeder wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> The consequences of denying the reality of cold fusion have had a > >>>>>> horrendous > >>>>>>> impact on the real world. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "The consequences of denying the reality of ___________ have had a > >>>>>> horrendous impact on the real world." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Fill in the blank and take a number... > >>>>> > >>>>> Some things matter much more than others. If cold fusion can be made > >>>>> into a practical source of energy, it is the most important discovery > >>>>> in recorded history. Only prehistoric discoveries such as fire, > >>>>> agriculture or language have had a greater impact or more benefits. > >>>>> > >>>>> - Jed > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sure, but there have been costs too. > >>>> > >>>> Social impact studies should be required by law just as environmental > >> impact > >>>> studies are now required by law. > >>>> > >>>> Harry > >>> > >>> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 19:36:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4J2ab94022246; Thu, 18 May 2006 19:36:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4J2aaFK022234; Thu, 18 May 2006 19:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:35:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc In-reply-to: <410-22006531720504914@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > That is interesting Harry. > But why use the feeble electrostatic motors Aesthetics. I like how charge is directly converted into kinetic motion. Anyway, with ultracapacitors couldn't you make them more powerful? > > when you can use the helium balloon tethered > fair weather field collector voltage-current to make > OH and H gas to run a ICE? > > You can also store the fair weather field energy in a capacitor > or storage battery then dump it into a motor. > > I suppose you could use up to a 13.5 foot whip antenna on > your car to pick up the Electronic Smog too. and feed it to your > Joe Cell with cathode at chassis ground. > > > http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html > > Maybe Reich's Faraday Shield type Orgone Boxes shut out > the outside world for therapy? Your last remark went over my head. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 18 19:58:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4J2w1Tx001180; Thu, 18 May 2006 19:58:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4J2vxH5001137; Thu, 18 May 2006 19:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:57:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <005501c67af0$03c946a0$4e037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Emergence Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:57:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C67AC6.1A66B610"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C67AC6.1A66B610 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0052_01C67AC6.1A66B610" ------=_NextPart_001_0052_01C67AC6.1A66B610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Steven V.J., Interesting views presented. You must have been stimulated by the book. = The analogies you use are thought provoking. It gave me pause for thought. We actually exist in "ordered chaos". = Creation as we seek to understand it screams out that it is hopelessly = flawed. What is interesting to read is the book of Ephesians in the new = testament that confirms chaos was by design before creation. = Perfection by definition cannot be part imperfection once perfection is = achieved. It can only be perfect perfection and chaos cannot emerge. = However, perfection can come from imperfection. This is the hope given = man through faith in Jesus Christ. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0052_01C67AC6.1A66B610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Steven V.J.,
 
Interesting views presented. You must have been stimulated by the = book. The=20 analogies you use are thought provoking.
 
It gave me pause for thought. We actually exist in "ordered=20 chaos". Creation as we seek to understand it screams out that it is = hopelessly flawed. What is interesting to read is the book of Ephesians = in the=20 new testament that confirms   chaos was by  design  = before=20 creation. Perfection by definition cannot be part imperfection once = perfection=20 is achieved. It can only be perfect perfection and chaos cannot emerge. = However,=20 perfection can come from imperfection. This is the hope given man = through faith=20 in Jesus Christ.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0052_01C67AC6.1A66B610-- ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C67AC6.1A66B610 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005001c67af0$0336a390$4e037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C67AC6.1A66B610-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 07:23:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JENDU2025511; Fri, 19 May 2006 07:23:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JENBRj025486; Fri, 19 May 2006 07:23:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:23:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Fuel of the Future - HaHa Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:23:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Don't laugh yet but "get-wind" of this new-and-improved eco-scheme: Yup - nitrous oxide - is a potential fuel with some unusual benefits, especially if combined with wind energy into a total package. Certainly, among the most attractive of those benefits is that the raw materials are free... Free-is-good... unless, that is, you are in the oil-patch. First and foremost, there may be no other scheme on the planet which is as ecologically sound as this one (in theory). Why ? Air-2-Air-2-Air using air-power is the basic manufacturing and conversion situation ! How cool is that? At room temperature, N2O is unreactive with most substances, including alkali metals, halogens, and even ozone. IOW is safer to store than gasoline and easily liquefied. It is therefore widely used as a propellant in aerosol cans in place of the CFCs which can damage the ozone layer. When heated sufficiently, however, N2O decomposes exothermically to N2 and O2. If this reaction occurs in the combustion chamber of an automobile, 3 moles of gas would be produced from 2 moles, providing an extra psi boost to the piston, more torque - as well as liberating more heat. It also has a number of other benefits including the oxygen content which provides more efficient combustion of fuel, and the latent heat of vaporization of the N2O reduces the intake temperature allowing a higher compression ratio. It is win-win (except for $$) and therefore N2O is injected into the intake manifolds of racing cars and dragsters to give more power and unsurpassed acceleration. Because of low demand, however, N2O has never been mass-produced in the quantities that would make it attractive price-wise, as a prime fuel... but then again, gasoline was never pushing $4/gallon before. Plus the vehicle would need to carry quite a lot of N2O even liquefied - but that is just an issue of spatial-utilization which pales in comparison to the beneficial ecological issues. The $64 question is: can modern catalysts, combined with computer control and perhaps sono-chemistry (and/or ... all of the other modern advancements of organic chemistry) provide a way to make N2O from "just" compressed air (and wind energy). Without getting too much into "echo-ecology" (as in repeating oneself) - let me reiterate that in past postings (if anyone reads them), I have related this persistent vision of a fleet of offshore, drift-floating, large catamaran wind-farms (of the ladder-mill or improved Winged-Ferris-wheel variety) which use wind energy to make liquid air (or preferably O2-enriched liquid air, where the O2 content is 40% or more, of the end-product). In this scheme, this liquid fuel/oxidizer would be picked up periodically from the floating wind farms by cryo-tankers, and transported onshore - to be used in regular gas-fired electric plants - to increase the efficiency of combustion and reduce hydrocarbons by as much as 1/3 for the same kWh. There is still too much CO2 in this scheme for the Sierra Club- but much of the energy usage has now been shifted one small step toward an ideal wind-only situation. At least in the short-term, a wind-only energy basis, even in a windy area, is logistically impossible as a practical matter. IOW this is just another alternative way to store and convert wind energy - from the physical location where the available wind-energy is far and away the most robust (offshore) ... but in a situation where anchored wind farms are impractical, due to water depth. One huge advantage of this concept is that the farms are not permanently anchored, and the second is that the energy is stored using the giant heat-sink of the ocean and the Linde liquefaction process (which has a COP of at least 4) so that there is a net gain at the gas-fired-plant from "just" the expansion of the liquid - not even counting the oxygen. Catamaran hulls made from ferro-cement will not add significantly to the overhead of this kind of wind-farm, as they also serve as the place to store the manufactured product of the wind and provide a stable platform in high winds. That "manufacture product" may - as of today- have a shifting self-identity... even though the "ore" is still the air, and the power to convert it is still the moving air. That is to say: if liquid N2O can be produced - instead of oxy-enriched air - for not much more in overhead - then the economics of the scheme could be enhanced considerably - and the gas-fired plant itself - even eliminated in most cases. N2O is itself a potential transportation fuel... (and don't laugh at that one ! at least not until you think about the many advantages, and few disadvantages) ... Jones The real humor in all of this nitrous-talk is the "painless" part of dentistry, at least according to my laugh-consultant - the inimitable "Painless Potter" (RIP- Bob) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 08:50:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JFo33E024210; Fri, 19 May 2006 08:50:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JFNnUJ014554; Fri, 19 May 2006 08:23:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:23:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:08:13 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C8496D2F27E173-578-BAD4@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: 200 mpg Bike Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's all in the wheel: www.revopower.com Reserve yours now, $50 down, $350 on delivery in 2007. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 08:51:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JFo33G024210; Fri, 19 May 2006 08:50:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JF4ijZ010065; Fri, 19 May 2006 08:04:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:04:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KzxjhntNB6F1h9Uw/nfoEImDaD8T3Ta0IPZFHtJofYvcZsQ5EZVnjnqJ3MqYTgFtGobxPZbAzTwURyqRwp6Qb5MrlQdRyMpuq+LOI7Bb+knSGzBWDynsp+EatAoXGj7ySiSG9FdIiuBir+K3uaiSjYrcdkS2+lly3I5r5X3/FuA= Message-ID: <357653710605190804k367b26bbhaedd7920c779b1fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:04:39 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: History of Electrostatic motors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_139281_5189336.1148051079428" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_139281_5189336.1148051079428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Interesting. What about including applications where the rotor (not necessarily rotating= ) is air? This is what the so called lifter is, right? Since even vacuum can have fields I think it would even be possible to have the rotor in vacuum. David ------=_Part_139281_5189336.1148051079428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi

Interesting.

What about including applications where the rotor (not necessarily rotating) is air? This is what the so called lifter is, right?

Since even vacuum can have fields I think it would even be possible to have= the rotor in vacuum.

David


------=_Part_139281_5189336.1148051079428-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 09:21:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JGKrxp007263; Fri, 19 May 2006 09:20:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JGKpb9007222; Fri, 19 May 2006 09:20:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:20:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:20:40 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C849774DCD1F13-578-BEA3@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: PHEV News Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.greencarcongress.com/batteries/index.html Lots of news on batteries and betteries. ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 09:58:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JGvYh9028468; Fri, 19 May 2006 09:57:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JGvW3Z028431; Fri, 19 May 2006 09:57:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:57:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <446DF8F1.40408@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:57:21 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel of the Future - HaHa References: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Don't laugh yet but "get-wind" of this new-and-improved eco-scheme: > > Yup - nitrous oxide - is a potential fuel with some unusual benefits, > especially if combined with wind energy into a total package. Certainly, > among the most attractive of those benefits is that the raw materials > are free... > > Free-is-good... unless, that is, you are in the oil-patch. > > First and foremost, there may be no other scheme on the planet which is > as ecologically sound as this one (in theory). Why ? Air-2-Air-2-Air > using air-power is the basic manufacturing and conversion situation ! > How cool is that? > > At room temperature, N2O is unreactive with most substances, including > alkali metals, halogens, and even ozone. IOW is safer to store than > gasoline and easily liquefied. > > It is therefore widely used as a propellant in aerosol cans in place of > the CFCs which can damage the ozone layer. When heated sufficiently, > however, N2O decomposes exothermically to N2 and O2. > > If this reaction occurs in the combustion chamber of an automobile, 3 > moles of gas would be produced from 2 moles, providing an extra psi > boost to the piston, more torque - as well as liberating more heat. It > also has a number of other benefits including the oxygen content which > provides more efficient combustion of fuel, and the latent heat of > vaporization of the N2O reduces the intake temperature allowing a higher > compression ratio. It is win-win (except for $$) and therefore N2O is > injected into the intake manifolds of racing cars and dragsters to give > more power and unsurpassed acceleration. One question that comes immediately to mind is how much NO comes out the exhaust pipe? I seem to recall that's one of the pollutants folks are concerned about -- contributes to acid rain, maybe? -- and it seems like a likely successor to N2O in this scheme, assuming the dissociation process isn't perfect. > > Without getting too much into "echo-ecology" (as in repeating oneself) - > let me reiterate that in past postings (if anyone reads them), I have > related this persistent vision of a fleet of offshore, drift-floating, > large catamaran wind-farms (of the ladder-mill or improved > Winged-Ferris-wheel variety) which use wind energy to make liquid air > (or preferably O2-enriched liquid air, where the O2 content is 40% or > more, of the end-product). > > In this scheme, this liquid fuel/oxidizer would be picked up > periodically from the floating wind farms by cryo-tankers, and > transported onshore - to be used in regular gas-fired electric plants - > to increase the efficiency of combustion and reduce hydrocarbons by as > much as 1/3 for the same kWh. There is still too much CO2 in this scheme > for the Sierra Club- Actually I don't see how this reduces the CO2 emissions at all. In fact, if it improves the efficiency of the combustion process, it might increase CO2 emissions, by making combustion more complete and replacing some CO which would otherwise be produced with more CO2. Off hand I'd guess that CO, being highly reactive and hence less long-lived, is less destructive to the environment than CO2 (or maybe it's about the same, if it tends to turn into CO2 -- whatever). > ... so that there is a net gain at the gas-fired-plant > from "just" the expansion of the liquid In global-warming terms, is this not the primary gain, if not the only gain? Certainly for reducing CO2 emissions it seems like this is the only positive effect. The rest of the energy in the turbines is still just coming from combustion. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 10:03:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JH3YTd032044; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:03:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JH3Wku032022; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:03:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <446DFA43.90904@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:02:59 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Social Engineering References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > have-nots become haves. Isn't "Animal Farm" on the required reading > list in schools anymore? For the latest example look no further > than Zimbabwe and their accelerating 1000%+ inflation from Mugabe's > Orwellian-style redistribution of land resources. I don't think that Robert Mugabe would appreciate Animal Farm, no one likes to see themselves as a pig. > > Sunday, January 1, 2006 ... 1 US Dollar = 82,902.0 Zimbabwe Dollar > Thursday, May 18, 2006 ... 1 US Dollar = 101,874 Zimbabwe Dollar > > Perhaps just a cynical viewpoint, but humanity organized >>anything<< > is the few looking to control the many for the benefit of the self > appointed elite; religion, politics, sex, work, play, etc. Zimbabwe is social engineering at it's finest! Cox and Forkum, www.coxandforkum.com did a cartoon. It showed President Mugabe sitting on a broken tractor, a white farmer is lying on the ground with the tractor's steering wheel impaled into his back. The most humane systems are those which are unplanned, and each individual looks out for their own best interests. The failure of leftists to recognize the failure of planned economies every time they have been tried, is, IMHO, an indication of a psychosis. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 10:25:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JHPY9p011232; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:25:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JHPYhh011224; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:25:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:25:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519131147.03c5efa8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:25:31 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Social Engineering In-Reply-To: <446DFA43.90904@usfamily.net> References: <446DFA43.90904@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >The most humane systems are those which are unplanned, and each >individual looks out for their own best interests. The failure of >leftists to recognize the failure of planned economies every time >they have been tried, is, IMHO, an indication of a psychosis. Large parts of the U.S., EU and Japanese economies have been planned, and this has been true ever since the Erie canal was constructed in 1825. Add to this: railroads, sewers and public health, the electric power distribution, airports, aircraft and the air traffic control system, the highway system, computers and the Internet. All of these were planned in detail before they were built, and nearly all of the capital and expertise came from the Federal government. Social engineering not only works, it has brought about nearly all large-scale infrastructure and all public health improvements, which are the main cause of improved longevity and good health. (Hospitals and doctors seldom make a difference. This is why the U.S. is dead last in developed-world infant mortality, disease, obesity and other health indicators, even though we spend 2 to 3 times more than other first-world nations such as the UK and Japan. We are far behind Cuba, for goodness sake.) The US has had a hybrid public/private and planned/unplanned economy since the colonial era. To say that it has all been private, and to assert that planning does not work is as absurd as the left-wing claim that capitalism does not work. Both systems work, and both are vital to a modern economy. They serve different roles at different stages. At this stage, it is extremely unlikely that private sector capitalism will do fundamental research into cold fusion. Virtually none has been done, outside of Mitsubishi and the aborted program at Toyota. If we must depend on capitalism, cold fusion will probably never emerge. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 10:59:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JHxa4E029698; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:59:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JHxY0H029677; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:59:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:59:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005301c67b6d$fac935a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> <446DF8F1.40408@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Fuel of the Future - HaHa Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:59:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen > One question that comes immediately to mind is how much NO comes > out the exhaust pipe? Without access to catalytic converters, this could be a concern. The percentage would probably be easy to determine even in small protoptype, as the NOx pollution control monitoring equipment - used for auto emissions in most staes, is almost commonplace these days. Catalytic converters generally do a decent job of controlling NOx. Plus, in the power-plant setting, unlike in the auto, the catalyst can be periodically revitalized after it begins to degrade. I would guess that this is a non-issue for those reasons. >> In this scheme, this liquid fuel/oxidizer would be picked up >> periodically from the floating wind farms by cryo-tankers, and >> transported onshore - to be used in regular gas-fired electric >> plants - to increase the efficiency of combustion and reduce >> hydrocarbons by as much as 1/3 for the same kWh. There is still >> too much CO2 in this scheme for the Sierra Club- > > Actually I don't see how this reduces the CO2 emissions at all. Ah, Stephen, as a dedicated environmentalist, you need to put on the 'thinking cap' every once in a while - unless you were just trying to provide me with a convenient segue to better explain the details of this scheme . The 1/3 savings estimate in reduced carbon is probably on the low side. There is a huge benefit to be derived from expanding any volatile liquid through a tubine, especially using using waste heat to gassify it. That expansion uses no CO2 at all. It is merely a return of the stored wind energy. The liquid (air or otherwise) is at the equivalent pressure of 3000 psi, when it arrives. When it is expanded (i.e. gassified due to the 800-to-one difference in volume) the return of the *stored wind energy* is immediate and very efficient. And that does not even include the Carnot boost to the normal turbine, due to the increase Carnot spread. And the extra boost if you use the resultant gas as the oxidizer. Nor does it include increased combustion efficiency. There is a double or triple synergy here! and that is part of the beauty of the integrated scheme. In the case of liquid air, even if none of it were used to enhance combustion, the efficiency return is enormous, due to the high COP of the initial liquifaction, using the ocean heat sink. The Linde process has a COP of greater than 4 (this is a slightly different meaning for COP than what we use for overunity calculations). Nevertheless, considering that it changes (improves) the Carnot calculations for the regular gas-fired process by 200 degrees K, just the boost in Carnot efficiency would give a significant gain. Then - if liquid N2O were to be substituted for Liquid air, there is an additional exotherm there. Of all the possible ways to store wind energy this is the most efficient (possible exception: superconductive storage rings). Compared to converting wind energy to electricity and then to hydrogen, and then liquifying the H2, the net efficiency is at least double. Actually the only valid environmental objection to this scheme that I am aware of, is slight "thermal pollution" in that by using that ocean heat sink for liquefaction, one is very slightly contributing to ocean warming that way. But that is nothing compared to using ocean water to cool a nuclear reactor, for instance, where for every 1 gigawatt of electricity produced 3.5 gigawatts of waste heat are generated and then dumped directly into the ocean. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 11:27:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JIJn75007734; Fri, 19 May 2006 11:19:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JIJeJx007564; Fri, 19 May 2006 11:19:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:19:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519141817.03dcb868@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:19:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fuel of the Future - HaHa In-Reply-To: <005301c67b6d$fac935a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> <446DF8F1.40408@pobox.com> <005301c67b6d$fac935a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >But that is nothing compared to using ocean water to cool a nuclear >reactor, for instance, where for every 1 gigawatt of electricity >produced 3.5 gigawatts of waste heat are generated and then dumped >directly into the ocean. You mean: for every 1 GW of electricity produced 2 GW of waste heat are generated. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 11:49:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JIn8RH024843; Fri, 19 May 2006 11:49:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JIn4nV024794; Fri, 19 May 2006 11:49:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:49:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c67b74$e4b09b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001e01c67b4f$c0a1a650$6401a8c0@NuDell> <446DF8F1.40408@pobox.com> <005301c67b6d$fac935a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060519141817.03dcb868@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Fuel of the Future - HaHa Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:48:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > You mean: for every 1 GW of electricity produced 2 GW of waste > heat are generated. Yes, that would be an efficiency of 33+ % for nuclear - which is pretty close to the average, it seems. The 1-3.5 ratio mentioned is the approximate waste heat ratio of automobiles. Newer cars may reach 30-35% eff. but the older ones are in the 20% range so the average for waste heat compared to usable energy is that higher ratio. Sorry for the error. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:23:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJNS7M008034; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:23:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJNPDD008006; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:23:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:23:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060519192315591.0E6451C00083@mwinf3006.me.freeserve.com Reply-To: From: "Patrick Vessey" To: Subject: RE: Emergence Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:25:35 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <82251547.1147981442875.JavaMail.root@fepweb05> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4JJNG2C007958 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > SVJ recently wrote: > I happened to notice the author's name, and that's when I got the > biggest surprise of all. There, in capital letters was the name: > "STEVEN JOHNSON" (No relation!) This same synchronicity plays a part in the novel 'White Light' by Rudy Rucker. If you don't know anything about Georg Cantor's work, this novel might encourage you to find out more. [Well, I enjoyed it 20+ years ago!] Patrick -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/342 - Release Date: 17/05/2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:29:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJTKIo011279; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:29:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJTIuS011253; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:29:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:29:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:28:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: the concept of waste heat In-reply-to: <006601c67b74$e4b09b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What criteria is used to distinguish between unwanted heat and waste heat? e.g. If a home is cooled by a heat pump in the summer is it producing waste heat? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:31:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJVOMd012793; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:31:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJVNIg012771; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:31:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:31:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=T5A4FqFSObZZ0xPcxTGkuWMXb+hUTs0zcyNukmGwricQMn9JonYzJ0js8h9+0Lqr7NPAp4a2J+7UoDs3MxlQ0S5rAEV8ftnki4rLoCstXBdjlkvHsrngcdyqA4M12D9Tut7SrZoiDHQSbLSSF17Pcup3lqyYbpTvkvUb+YOQbCg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:31:22 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the concept of waste heat In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_608_33203622.1148067082435" References: <006601c67b74$e4b09b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_608_33203622.1148067082435 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline waste heat is any heat that is caused by a proccess that is not used furthe= r along. so in your example, yes, unless you hook up a sterling to reconvert it to electricity. On 5/19/06, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > What criteria is used to distinguish between unwanted heat and waste heat= ? > > e.g. If a home is cooled by a heat pump in the summer is it producing > waste > heat? > > Harry > > --=20 "Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to ma= ke it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire ------=_Part_608_33203622.1148067082435 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline waste heat is any heat that is caused by a proccess that is not used furthe= r along.  so in your example, yes, unless you hook up a sterling to re= convert it to electricity.

On 5/19/06, = Harry Veeder <eo200@fre= enet.carleton.ca> wrote:


What criteria is used to= distinguish between unwanted heat and waste heat?

e.g. If a home is= cooled by a heat pump in the summer is it producing waste
heat?

Harry




= --
"Monsieur l'abb=E9, I detest what you write, but I would give m= y life to make it possible for you to continue to write"  Vo= ltaire=20 ------=_Part_608_33203622.1148067082435-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:41:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJewtE016523; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:40:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJevcb016498; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519153826.03e41aa8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:40:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: the concept of waste heat In-Reply-To: References: <006601c67b74$e4b09b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8VM-4D.A.uBE.I9hbEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From my book, Appendix A., p. 179-180: Waste Heat Strictly speaking, this is: "heat energy produced in an energy conversion or transfer process that is lost during conversion or transfer and is not available for useful purposes" (as defined by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory). For example, a typical automobile engine is 20% efficient, meaning that 80% of the heat from the burning gasoline goes out of the exhaust system, and 20% converts to vehicle propulsion. . . . However, the 80% of the waste heat from an automobile engine is not all necessarily wasted in the literal sense. In wintertime, you move a lever to open a baffle, directing a stream of fresh air across the hot engine block into the passenger compartment. In other words, you use waste heat to keep yourself warm. At a typical electric power plant, 66% of the heat is wasted, producing billowing clouds of steam from the cooling towers. This leftover heat is not hot enough to generate electricity with conventional turbines, but it can be used for space heating and other purposes. See: Cogeneration. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:50:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJodro021423; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:50:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJoclE021405; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:50:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:50:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519154128.03e465a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:50:31 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060515113331.03cd7d50@mindspring.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060515113331.03cd7d50@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9ElgeC.A.XOF.OGibEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >2. The incredibly efficient transmission design. By the way, this transmission would not work without the electric motor. It depends upon the high torque produced by electric motors at low speed. I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That design would do away with the need for a transmission and differential. You would have to trust the computer to keep the car on the straight and narrow! Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? I believe they operate through the full range of speeds on electric railroads without gears. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 12:56:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JJu5V9024135; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:56:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JJu3X2024098; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OuMph+PpOBPaElNAjncNgEO1/FSA5rB8IfO0NhQnebTSyF1OyOlN97IJxRQJ3j6r; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065519195555889@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:55:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401e545e9b1ce6ccd80ac88c87d0a893c0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.209 Resent-Message-ID: <5WFvzD.A.e4F.SLibEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Jones is laughingly hacking and coughing on the Nitric-Nitrous Acid pollution from burning N2O in his ICE, I'm checking the performance efficiency increase using a semi-closed Argon Hydrogen Peroxide ICE at 7:1 and 10;1 compression ratios using this engine calculator that I keep stored in my documents folder. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm At a compression ratio of 7:1 the 1.6 gamma for Argon increases the efficiency from 54.08% to 68.89%. And at 10:1 compression ratio of most engines in use the efficiency increases from 60.19% to 74.88% over the 1.4 gamma for air. The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce Megatonnage of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used for the Electrolysis step. In the ICE; 2 HO-OH (68 grams) ----> 2 H2O + 210,000 joule or 1.4 megajoule (~ 1,323 BTU) per pound. The 35% H2O2 solution is readily available. Throwing in some Ethanol will keep the farmers happy, but a CO2 absorbent will be required. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
While Jones is laughingly hacking and coughing on the Nitric-Nitrous Acid
pollution from burning N2O in his ICE, I'm checking the performance
efficiency increase using a semi-closed Argon Hydrogen Peroxide
ICE at 7:1 and 10;1 compression ratios using this engine calculator
that I keep stored in my documents folder.
 
 
At  a compression ratio of 7:1 the 1.6 gamma for Argon increases
the efficiency from 54.08% to 68.89%. And at 10:1 compression ratio
of most engines in use the efficiency increases from 60.19% to 74.88%
over the 1.4 gamma for air.
 
The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen Peroxide
HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce Megatonnage
of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used for the Electrolysis
step.
 
In the ICE; 2 HO-OH (68 grams) ---->  2 H2O + 210,000 joule or 1.4 megajoule (~ 1,323 BTU) per pound.
 
 
The 35% H2O2 solution is readily available.
 
Throwing in some Ethanol will keep the farmers happy, but a CO2 absorbent
will be required.
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:01:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JK0jN0026915; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:00:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JK0h9p026883; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:00:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:00:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <159a01c67b7e$e83aa110$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060515113331.03cd7d50@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060519154128.03e465a0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 22:00:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. It may have been done already actually. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >I wrote: > >>2. The incredibly efficient transmission design. > > By the way, this transmission would not work without the electric motor. > It depends upon the high torque produced by electric motors at low speed. > > I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors > coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That design > would do away with the need for a transmission and differential. You would > have to trust the computer to keep the car on the straight and narrow! > > Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? > I believe they operate through the full range of speeds on electric > railroads without gears. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:24:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JKNseI005367; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:23:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JKNq1r005352; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:23:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:23:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:23:46 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84999441B94F3-578-C7C3@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C50BDCCACF@CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060515113331.03cd7d50@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060519154128.03e465a0@mindspring.com> <159a01c67b7e$e83aa110$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <159a01c67b7e$e83aa110$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4JKNoHb005329 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian > Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they?    Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. It may have been done already actually.  <><><><><><> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:29:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JKTbgZ008649; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JKTSX6008570; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:29:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:29:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Bax+YMQxVN+AWDtOs/8t01PVrSUcUp3yBLPkM00s9nL6Kjn6V0fUKQ4mdr2r0XbF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065519202913501@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:29:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d332b401d708ba93e5f6f86489c0b687350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oops, left out the O2, 2 HO-OH -----> 2 H2O + O2 + 210,000 joule Need that for the Ethanol (2 C2H6O) + 7 O2 ----> 4 CO2 + 6 H2O burning for V2-like rocketing from traffic stops. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/19/2006 1:56:41 PM Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE While Jones is laughingly hacking and coughing on the Nitric-Nitrous Acid pollution from burning N2O in his ICE, I'm checking the performance efficiency increase using a semi-closed Argon Hydrogen Peroxide ICE at 7:1 and 10;1 compression ratios using this engine calculator that I keep stored in my documents folder. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm At a compression ratio of 7:1 the 1.6 gamma for Argon increases the efficiency from 54.08% to 68.89%. And at 10:1 compression ratio of most engines in use the efficiency increases from 60.19% to 74.88% over the 1.4 gamma for air. The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce Megatonnage of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used for the Electrolysis step. In the ICE; 2 HO-OH (68 grams) ----> 2 H2O + 210,000 joule or 1.4 megajoule (~ 1,323 BTU) per pound. The 35% H2O2 solution is readily available. Throwing in some Ethanol will keep the farmers happy, but a CO2 absorbent will be required. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Oops, left out the O2, 2 HO-OH -----> 2 H2O + O2 + 210,000 joule
 
Need that for the Ethanol (2 C2H6O) + 7 O2 ----> 4 CO2 + 6 H2O burning for
V2-like rocketing from traffic stops.  :-)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/19/2006 1:56:41 PM
Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE

While Jones is laughingly hacking and coughing on the Nitric-Nitrous Acid
pollution from burning N2O in his ICE, I'm checking the performance
efficiency increase using a semi-closed Argon Hydrogen Peroxide
ICE at 7:1 and 10;1 compression ratios using this engine calculator
that I keep stored in my documents folder.
 
 
At  a compression ratio of 7:1 the 1.6 gamma for Argon increases
the efficiency from 54.08% to 68.89%. And at 10:1 compression ratio
of most engines in use the efficiency increases from 60.19% to 74.88%
over the 1.4 gamma for air.
 
The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen Peroxide
HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce Megatonnage
of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used for the Electrolysis
step.
 
In the ICE; 2 HO-OH (68 grams) ---->  2 H2O + 210,000 joule or 1.4 megajoule (~ 1,323 BTU) per pound.
 
 
The 35% H2O2 solution is readily available.
 
Throwing in some Ethanol will keep the farmers happy, but a CO2 absorbent
will be required.
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:35:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JKYo8v012562; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:34:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JKYmea012537; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:34:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:34:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008f01c67b83$aaebcc30$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <006601c67b74$e4b09b80$6401a8c0@NuDell> <7.0.1.0.2.20060519153826.03e41aa8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: the concept of waste heat Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:34:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, et al. > At a typical electric power plant, 66% of the heat is wasted, > producing billowing clouds of steam from the cooling towers. That would be the typical nuclear plant. Newer gas-fired plants do better, but there is still plenty of room for improvement - and perhaps that "improvement" is the best way to implement wind energy in the short term - as instead of competing with the "Cons" of the energy world (i.e. Con-Ed) you are actually working with them. Let's start with a gas turbine electric power plant, and use rounded-off approximations and a very simple verbalization of what can be accomplished in a compound system, using a "bottoming cycle" of liquid air - which has been produced by an offshore wind farm. A typical modern high compression gas-turbine is 40% efficient in converting the heat content of methane into electricity. This is a Brayton cycle heat engine - Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle and like the Carnot cycle, it is determined by a temperature "spread" and then the efficiency within the "spread". The Wiki entry for Carnot is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine At any rate there is a high temperature, in the combustor, and there is a low temperature at the exhaust, giving the "spread". In theory, you can increase the net efficiency by either raising the high end or lowering the low end - as the efficiency within the spread has already been maximized by the design of the turbine. The high end however - has for many years already been maximized by the demands of metallurgy. At the low end, then - you find the only chance for getting more electricity out of your wasted heat - and you can use "reheat" and "regeneration" to get some increase by utilizing the waste heat again together with some lesser "new" heat. The waste heat is usually limited to about 150 degrees C. over ambient, but this represents 60% of the total original heat. If one has a ready source of a very cold liquid, which becomes volatile at less than ambient temperatures, then two things can be accomplished by using this waste heat. First it can be used to expand the liquid which is then passed through another (much cheaper) turbine, and then secondly - just doing this, the operator can widen the original "spread" of the gas-fired plant. This low end manipulation can even be done with water - by adding a steam bottoming cycle to a gas turbine... which will result in capturing an additional 15-20% of formerly wasted energy, as the Carnot spread is only going to 150 degrees plus the added new heat. It gets more complicated than that, since reheat is used, but for these purposes generalization is more important than precision. If, instead of water/steam, you are able to use a cold liquid at 150 degrees below ambient, not requiring addition new heat, then essentially you can double the available "spread" at the low end and garner another 10-15% more than before - but even that nice bump is not the end-of story. By using a liquid below ambient you have at the same time been able to increase the "spread" in the first case - somewhat, so instead of the improved 40+15 =55% efficiency, which results from using a steam bottoming cycle, you can get something like 42+30 = 72% efficiency - which high figure ignores the wind energy put into achieving the cold liquid state - so it is not apples-to-apples. At any rate there is a very desirable niche for this kind of optimized system in a world of rising methane prices. In this idealized case, it can be seen that using liquid air gives a significant net increase in efficiency, which would directly result in a decrease in methane usage, and the added capital cost of a cold bottoming cycle is actually less than for a steam bottoming cycle (which is, in effect a steam plant) - except of course that this comparison excludes the capital cost of the wind farm, making the liquid air. It is a complicated situation - involving competing special interests, and that is probably why you have not seen this presented in this way before. Wind energy has previously been adversarial to natural gas - when in truth, there is a middle ground, benefiting all concerned. All and all... this must be an integrated package - planned from the start - which looks, at first blush, like the best way to use wind energy since it combines the needed storage capability with the present day distribution infrastructure - while at the same time allowing the power company to reduce its methane purchases and reduce its carbon releases. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:48:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JKm5Y1018932; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:48:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JKm4dE018907; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:48:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:48:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c601c67b85$84f6ee40$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-220065519202913501@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:47:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen > Peroxide HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce Megatonnage of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used for the Electrolysis step. I'm getting confused trying to "mulit-task" but I thought you were going to accomplish this HO-OH step with your Helmholtz cell? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 13:50:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JKnuat020564; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:49:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JKnsuH020545; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:49:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:49:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:44:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the concept of waste heat In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519153826.03e41aa8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is this sufficient? Shouldn't the financial costs be included the definition of "waste heat"? Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > From my book, Appendix A., p. 179-180: > > Waste Heat > > Strictly speaking, this is: "heat energy produced in an energy > conversion or transfer process that is lost during conversion or > transfer and is not available for useful purposes" (as defined by > Pacific Northwest National Laboratory). For example, a typical > automobile engine is 20% efficient, meaning that 80% of the heat from > the burning gasoline goes out of the exhaust system, and 20% converts > to vehicle propulsion. . . . > > However, the 80% of the waste heat from an automobile engine is not > all necessarily wasted in the literal sense. In wintertime, you move > a lever to open a baffle, directing a stream of fresh air across the > hot engine block into the passenger compartment. In other words, you > use waste heat to keep yourself warm. At a typical electric power > plant, 66% of the heat is wasted, producing billowing clouds of steam > from the cooling towers. This leftover heat is not hot enough to > generate electricity with conventional turbines, but it can be used > for space heating and other purposes. See: Cogeneration. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 14:35:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JLYp8K007522; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:34:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JLYfCp007411; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060519141552.02b0c1a8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:36:16 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Proper Scientific Refutations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: V - I was havin' a chat will fellow CF author the other day about proper scientific refutations. He brought to my attention that a valid refutation of a claim is one which identifies a specific "error of procedure" in an experiment, such as a specific error pertaining to calorimetry, interpretation etc. The distinction we discussed focused on the point, subtle perhaps, of distinguishing specific "errors of procedure" from speculative or hypothetical errors. The discussion arose from my review of the numerous speculative refutations of F&P given at the APS Baltimore meeting on May 1, 1989. I'd like to explore this topic further here, if anybody would care to engage in such. -S From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 14:42:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JLekbN011930; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:42:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JLZLU1007849; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZqdYK/BRYzZTj/aSCP4INALOCmrSTDKI7M45tXm2xDKWTr/ZKQH3fiGN/jkxOdA1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006551921752693@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:07:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cbb454c0ea67ad1c2ba7c4ea5ef4ef1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.118 Resent-Message-ID: <1oa3ID.A.c6B.XojbEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote. > > Fred, > > > The concurrent Electrolysis H2SO4, NH4SO4 or KHSO4 Hydrogen > > Peroxide > HO-OH + H2 Process and the Anthraquinone-H2 Process can produce > Megatonnage > of HO-OH with present production capability if wind power is used > for the Electrolysis > step. > > I'm getting confused trying to "multi-task" but I thought you were > going to accomplish this HO-OH step with your Helmholtz cell? > I am I think Jones, but, the Borax Na2B4O7.10 H2O is peculiar in that hydrolysis of the anion B4O7= + 7 H2O <---> 4 H3BO3 2 + OH - has me undecided whether the two OH radicals are coming off as gas or staying in the electrolyte as HO-OH. The cell is holding at about 18 milliamperes with 12 volts across the 12 plates (11 ~ 1.0 volt cells in series). It takes hours to get enough gases to inflate the balloon on the fill tube. Fred > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 14:50:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JLo4FO018233; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:50:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JLgSSG012735; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:42:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:42:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:40:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: the concept of waste heat In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519153826.03e41aa8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > From my book, Appendix A., p. 179-180: > > Waste Heat > > Strictly speaking, this is: "heat energy produced in an energy > conversion or transfer process that is lost during conversion or > transfer and is not available for useful purposes" (as defined by > Pacific Northwest National Laboratory). For example, a typical > automobile engine is 20% efficient, meaning that 80% of the heat from > the burning gasoline goes out of the exhaust system, and 20% converts > to vehicle propulsion. . . . What is a "useful purpose". If it is does not lead to a profit does that make it waste heat? > However, the 80% of the waste heat from an automobile engine is not > all necessarily wasted in the literal sense. In wintertime, you move > a lever to open a baffle, directing a stream of fresh air across the > hot engine block into the passenger compartment. In other words, you > use waste heat to keep yourself warm. At a typical electric power > plant, 66% of the heat is wasted, producing billowing clouds of steam > from the cooling towers. This leftover heat is not hot enough to > generate electricity with conventional turbines, but it can be used > for space heating and other purposes. See: Cogeneration. > > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 14:55:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JLtZdL021590; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:55:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JLtYTi021570; Fri, 19 May 2006 14:55:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:55:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Emergence Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:56:05 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <82251547.1147981442875.JavaMail.root@fepweb05> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 18 May 2006 16:34:18 -0500, you wrote: >OrionWorks wrote: > >> >> Jed's thoughts on this matter brings to mind something I've been pondered on >> and off in my life for years, a concept called "Emergence." Theories of >> Emergent behavior help explain why dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores >> thrive. It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our cities >> deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, as compared to being torn >> down and replaced with another ill thought out housing project, and with >> disastrous consequences. > >I hope you don't mean such neighborhoods deserve to be left run-down. > >Personally, I think cities should actively develop mixed income >neighborhoods. There is no reason why poor and rich can't live in the same >neighbourhoods. --- Sure there is. The rich wouldn't do it. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 15:21:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JML6oh001490; Fri, 19 May 2006 15:21:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JML4WU001457; Fri, 19 May 2006 15:21:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:21:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,149,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="26131895:sNHT88508124" Message-ID: <1245717990.1148077261752.JavaMail.root@fepweb13> Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:21:01 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Emergence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > John Fields wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2006 16:34:18 -0500, you wrote: > > >OrionWorks wrote: > > > >> > >> Jed's thoughts on this matter brings to mind something I've > >> been pondered on and off in my life for years, a concept > >> called "Emergence." Theories of Emergent behavior help > >> explain why dilapidated Mom-and-Pop retail stores thrive. > >> It helps explain why certain run-down neighborhoods in our > >> cities deserve to stay pretty much intact the way they are, > >> as compared to being torn down and replaced with another > >> ill thought out housing project, and with disastrous > >>consequences. > > > >I hope you don't mean such neighborhoods deserve to be left run-down. > > > >Personally, I think cities should actively develop mixed income > >neighborhoods. There is no reason why poor and rich can't live in the same > >neighbourhoods. > > --- > Sure there is. The rich wouldn't do it. > -- > John Fields Just to be clear on this point, due to bad editing there are now follow-up statements being attributed to me that I never personally made. I have, in fact, made no follow-ups, until now. I'll only say here that Jed's recent comments and personal experiences of having lived in Japan in a seemingly run-down neighborhood accurately reflect what Steven Johnson's book on "Emergence" had to say on the subject. Emergent behavior helps explain the reasons why we should tread very carefully when the subject of "improving" a neighborhood comes up in city planning. There have been disastrous results, all in the name of "improving" seemingly dilapidated run-down neighborhoods. The soul of the neighborhood can be killed, and any reason to live there. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 15:32:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4JMVuDF008538; Fri, 19 May 2006 15:31:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4JMVteg008521; Fri, 19 May 2006 15:31:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:31:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:31:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-reply-to: <8C84999441B94F3-578-C7C3@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4JMVrPk008504 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. or no? Harry hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian > >> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they?  >   > Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. It may > have been done already actually.  > > <><><><><><> > > http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 18:10:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K1AI1X030513; Fri, 19 May 2006 18:10:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K1AGQ5030493; Fri, 19 May 2006 18:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:10:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: letters@theage.com.au Subject: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:10:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 20 May 2006 01:10:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4K1AEO9030470 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Prime Minister, As well as having Uranium resources among the largest in the World, Australia has about a million square kilometers of desert admirably suited to the collection of solar energy, and pretty much useless for anything else. In fact we could more than supply the entire planet with solar based energy, giving us a new export industry greater than any we currently have. Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses, with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface" technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently is (guesstimate). That would not just make it competitive with all existing technologies, it would make it cheaper than anything else. Furthermore modular construction can be used for a solar installation, with small segments being brought "on line" as they are completed, whereas a nuclear plant doesn't start producing power until the whole thing is completed. The expertise already exists in Australian universities, particularly UNSW. To top it off, it would vastly improve Australia's "green" image in the World. R. van Spaandonk Upper Ferntree Gully Vic. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 20:05:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K35R6n003822; Fri, 19 May 2006 20:05:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K35P3A003809; Fri, 19 May 2006 20:05:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:05:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=uFGe8lYWTgybKRAL5U4wcjTYvbxKALH5BBYlXt6yaECtdU2uN9I4HfTNM8JPkvZ8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656203512496@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Closed Cylcle Argon-Hydrogen Peroxide ICE Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:05:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ed81d419bcc57e5edbe3ca8bfc62238c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.122 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This doesn't take into account that the electrolysis process can produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH plus 2 lbs of H2 at 50 KW-Hr ($5.00) at about $0.15/lb while the electrolysis H2 can be used in the Anthraquinone Process to produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH. Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ----> 2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency. 3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon. $10.20 for Electricity & Processing-Shipping HO-OH vs $9.30 for gasoline? http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#5 "How much does H2O2 cost? It depends on the specifics of the requirement (e.g., H2O2 strength and grade, volume per year, packaging and delivery volumes, and location/proximity to production plant or terminal, etc.). Within the continental U.S., the list price for 50% Technical Grade (standard industrial grade), delivered in full tank trucks (40,000 lbs), and freight equalized from the nearest production plant, is as follows. "Product: $0.345 per lb-50% (FOB Houston, TX) Freight: $3.50 per mile (regardless of delivery volume) Taxes, tariffs and duties: ?" ............................................................................................................................. Anthraquinone Process: "The manufacturing process involves the catalysis of the reaction of H2 with atmospheric O2 to give H2O2. Anthraquinone (Q) is used as a H2 carrier." "Step1 - Hydrogenation Palladium catalyses the reaction between H2 and anthraquinone to create anthrahydroquinone (H2Q): Q + H2 . H2Q Step 2 - Filtration The palladium catalyst is filtered out of the solution. Step 3 - Oxidation The solution is oxidised by blowing air through the solution, forming the H2O2: H2Q + O2 . Q + H2O2 Step 4 - H2O2 Extraction The hydrogen peroxide is removed in a liquid-liquid extraction column and concentrated by vacuum distillation." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This doesn't take into account that the electrolysis process can produce

another 34 lbs of HO-OH plus 2 lbs of H2 at 50 KW-Hr ($5.00) at about $0.15/lb

while the electrolysis H2 can be used in the Anthraquinone Process to produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH.

Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ---->  2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency.

3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon.

$10.20 for Electricity & Processing-Shipping HO-OH vs  $9.30 for gasoline?

http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#5

"How much does H2O2 cost?

It depends on the specifics of the requirement (e.g., H2O2 strength and grade, volume per year, packaging and delivery volumes,

and location/proximity to production plant or terminal, etc.).

Within the continental U.S., the list price for 50% Technical Grade (standard industrial grade),

delivered in full tank trucks (40,000 lbs), and freight equalized from the nearest production plant, is as follows.

"Product: $0.345 per lb-50% (FOB Houston, TX)
Freight: $3.50 per mile (regardless of delivery volume)
Taxes, tariffs and duties: ?"

.............................................................................................................................

Anthraquinone Process:

"The manufacturing process involves the catalysis of the reaction of H2

with atmospheric O2 to give H2O2. Anthraquinone (Q) is used as a H2 carrier."

"Step1 - Hydrogenation

Palladium catalyses the reaction between H2 and anthraquinone to create

anthrahydroquinone (H2Q):

Q + H2 . H2Q

Step 2 - Filtration

The palladium catalyst is filtered out of the solution.

Step 3 - Oxidation

The solution is oxidised by blowing air through the solution, forming the H2O2:

H2Q + O2 . Q + H2O2

Step 4 - H2O2 Extraction

The hydrogen peroxide is removed in a liquid-liquid extraction column and

concentrated by vacuum distillation."

 

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 20:07:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K37411005252; Fri, 19 May 2006 20:07:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K373q0005236; Fri, 19 May 2006 20:07:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:07:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:07:31 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Equivalence (oldie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 19 May 2006 23:07:37 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 19 May 2006 23:07:37 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d wrote: ----- Most of us know that 'equivalence' refers to the comparison of an inertial reference frame and gravity. In other words, there's no difference between gravity and inertia. ----- On the earth the gravitational field through me is slightly convex. (If that's hard to visualize, think of the field through the Pacific Ocean, say.) Can you guys think up any accelerated frame that could have a similar geometry? If not, that's at least one "simple" test for gravity v. inertia. Note that in a spinning torus designed to simulate gravity in space the effective field is approximately concave, which of course also differs. - Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 21:02:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K42NQW026329; Fri, 19 May 2006 21:02:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K42Mvr026311; Fri, 19 May 2006 21:02:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:02:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=hPpEL1/FgzZcZdkv7JgKaGNZjgnK2UUyTeWHLkoEutJ04VbOEXpIax8VhzDFWAOc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200656204310420@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 19, 2006 Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:03:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d840f7928e9050bbf6a3f61c40a4acdfbf3122699149cfe979350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.111.97 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 5/19/2006 1:36:40 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 19, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 19 May 06 Washington, DC 1. DA VINCI CODE: CARDINALS COMPLAIN THAT THE NOVEL IS FICTION. Aren't they always? Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, expressed shock this week at the Da Vinci Code promotion: "It had nothing to do with the truth." Like "transubstantiation" is the truth? Another powerful Cardinal, Francis Arinze, is urging legal action. Members of Opus Dei seem particularly upset at the shot of Silas with blood running down his leg from a cilice. Opus Dei says their members do not do this. Mother Teresa maybe. Ironically, you may recall that just two months ago, Random House, publisher of the Da Vinci Code, was being sued in the UK because the underlying theme was lifted from a 1982 best-selling history book, Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Scientists understand how the church and the historians feel. After all, science-fiction writers have been stealing our themes for years, and portraying us as Dr. Strangeloves. And if we're the good guys, they get the physics wrong, like in Chain Reaction, where cold fusion works. 2. BROWN'S GAS: AN "ENERGY SOLUTION" THAT JUST WON'T GO AWAY. Several people this week sent us video clips of a "breakthrough" in energy research. A Florida company is calling it "Aquygen," (Patent Pending). New name, but it's just "Brown's Gas" http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm . It's been scamming people since the '80s. Dennis Lee, the notorious free-electricity hustler, has had it as part of his sales tour for at least a decade. It's produced by the electrolysis of water. Gas is collected from both electrodes, giving you a stoichiometric mixture, 2H2+O2. If ignited, it's completely converted back to water. It still takes more energy to produce than you get back. 3. BREAKTHROUGH PROPULSION: MOVING THE ROCKET'S CENTER OF MASS. It was the goal of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Institute, http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN97/wn081597.html . Propulsion without a propellant. BPI never quite made it. It was some problem with Newton's Laws of Motion I think -- the center of mass just wouldn't budge. Maybe they gave up too soon. A history professor at California State U., Fullerton, James Woodward, unveiled his research into "Mach-Lorentz thrusters" at the Future in Review conference in Coronado, CA on Wednesday. It's like the impulse engines in Star Trek. "They put out thrust without blowing stuff out the tailpipe," Woodward said. 4. PAT ROBERTSON: CHIEF WEATHER FORECASTER PREDICTS A TSUNAMI. Well, a tornado hasn't struck Dover, PA as he hoped, but give it time http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn010606.html . After all, it took several years after he called for a hurricane to hit Florida before Rita struck. Now, however, he says he has just spoken with God: both coasts will be lashed by storms this year, and a Tsunami may hit the Pacific Northwest. God said, "may"? THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 21:17:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K4HCn1031252; Fri, 19 May 2006 21:17:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K4HBeX031242; Fri, 19 May 2006 21:17:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 21:17:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060520041708471.732551C00082@mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060520041708.00b9a884@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 05:17:08 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Equivalence (oldie) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:07 pm 19/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: >hohlrauml6d wrote: > >----- >Most of us know that 'equivalence' refers to the comparison of an inertial >reference frame and gravity. In other words, there's no difference >between gravity and inertia. >----- > >On the earth the gravitational field through me is slightly convex. (If >that's hard to visualize, think of the field through the Pacific Ocean, >say.) Can you guys think up any accelerated frame that could have a >similar geometry? > >If not, that's at least one "simple" test for gravity v. inertia. > >Note that in a spinning torus designed to simulate gravity in space the >effective field is approximately concave, which of course also differs. > >- Walter Well put. Which is suggestive of action and reaction; gravity being an external action of the [nu]th atmosphere and inertia being the reaction of the [nu(+or-)1]th atmosphere. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 23:11:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K6B5Tc009234; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:11:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K6B3Fm009216; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:11:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:11:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060520061058956.E96D52C00083@mwinf3101.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060520061058.0098fb4c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 07:10:58 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...upon the clouds of heaven... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:33 am 07/08/2004 -0700, Jones wrote: [snip] > "I wonder what would happen if one subjected water > to the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex tube treatment. > Could one separate out the 4-8-12 phases I wonder." [snip] > Jones Had I not been such a stupid bastard I would have realised much earlier than this, that the 12th power vapour was indeed little chunks of three dimensional ice, cos: ======================================================== http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/sublimation.html -------------------------------------------------------- Huh? Didn't we just say water expands when it freezes? Initially, yes. But frozen water can do something else as well: it can sublimate. To sublimate is to go from one state to another without passing through the usual intermediary state. By adding heat, ice can be melted into liquid water, which can be evaporated. That's three states: solid, liquid, gas. But given enough time, ice can also turn into a gas without melting first! When your ice cubes seem to have shrunk, it's because they are sublimating: the frozen water is slowly evaporating off the cubes, without ever actually melting. ======================================================== That's right - Ice sublimates - It ejects little chunks and it is these that form the 12th power vapour the 3D Casimir particles. So what about the 8th power? What about the liquid water "vapour" ? Well if ice vapour is chunks and steam vapour is drops then water vapour simply has to be flakes, don't it. 8-) And there is a nice word for shedding flakes of stuff. Foliation. Liquid water foliates. It sheds little flakes of water. And what could be neater, what could be more reasonable than that? We have a skin. We shed flakes of our skin to be gobbled up by our tiny pets, the dust mites. Water has a skin, too, and evidently it also sheds tiny flakes from its skin. It is these 2D flakes that give rise to the 8th power Casimir Law. Cheers, Frank Grimer ====================================== The falling leaves drift by the window The autumn leaves of red and gold I see your lips, the summer kisses The sun-burned hands I used to hold Since you went away the days grow long And soon Ill hear old winter's song But I miss you most of all my darling When autumn leaves begin to fall ====================================== From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 23:28:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K6S82c024069; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:28:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K6S51P024032; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:28:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:28:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 02:28:37 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Proper Scientific Refutations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Sat, 20 May 2006 02:28:42 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Sat, 20 May 2006 02:28:42 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: ----- V - I was havin' a chat will fellow CF author the other day about proper scientific refutations. He brought to my attention that a valid refutation of a claim is one which identifies a specific "error of procedure" in an experiment, such as a specific error pertaining to calorimetry, interpretation etc. The distinction we discussed focused on the point, subtle perhaps, of distinguishing specific "errors of procedure" from speculative or hypothetical errors. The discussion arose from my review of the numerous speculative refutations of F&P given at the APS Baltimore meeting on May 1, 1989. I'd like to explore this topic further here, if anybody would care to engage in such. -S ----- Hello, Mr. Krivit. I fear that "proper scientific refutations" will be few and far between. These require detailed examination of the original experimental records, photographs, etc.; maybe examination of the original equipment, questioning of the researchers; possibly even an attempt to exactly duplicate the original experiment. Almost nobody has time for such endeavors. You will note that exact experimental duplications are almost never done anywhere in science except for the most important results. In a study to see if such examinations were possible, one social scientist asked for copies of the laboratory records associated with recently-published papers from a number of researchers in the physical sciences. The positive response rate was _extremely_ low. Most responders claimed that the relevant records were "lost". Researchers also often want to keep records confidential with the idea that further analysis could serve as the basis for additional papers. IIRC the Japanese consortium that did the studies on neutrino oscillations wrote specifically in one of their papers that their raw data would not be made available to other researchers. Of course this data was originally generated at extremely high cost, but surely there should be a time limit on such restrictions! If you are of the opinion that the published work itself is always an adequate guide as to the details of an experiment, may I direct your attention to a wonderful little book, "Artificial Experts: Social Knowledge and Intelligent Machines" by Harry Collins (MIT Press, 1990). Collins became a "knowledge engineer" in the field of growing crystals by reading the work of and doing detailed interviewing of the experts in this field, watching their laboratory work, etc. The idea was to produce a computer program to aid non-experts in growing crystals. But among the other problems he encountered was the fact that extremely tiny and often critically-important details of the lab work were never documented in the writings of the experts or in his interviews of them. For the experts these details were "obvious" or just unimportant eccentricities. But without knowing these details -- or being an expert oneself -- one couldn't grow the crystals. Taubes' book "Bad Science" noted a recurring complaint regarding Fleischmann and Pons' pre-cold fusion work: Industrial technicians could not duplicate some of their contracted lab results. In one case this was true even when F&P's lab work was videotaped. Does this prove that before cold fusion Fleischmann and Pons were already conscious frauds? Or maybe instead that tiny but important details of their lab work were being overlooked, even with close examination? Jed Rothwell notes that to duplicate F&P's original experiment requires one to have a Ph.D. in electrochemistry followed by several months of preparation. I also remember reading somewhere that everyone thinks electrochemistry is easy -- except electrochemists, who whenever possible try to avoid doing doing it. Clearly the editors of general science journals do not themselves have the expertise to directly criticize the methodology of most CF papers. It's much simpler to rely on their previous conclusions. In the absence of a "proper scientific refutation", critics/skeptics/scoffers can always fall back on what I'm now calling "The UFO explanation". If you debunk 1000 UFOs with a dozen different explanations, additional UFO reports can be safely ignored. With cold fusion some early "replications" were clearly and admittedly wrong. Other results were just believed to be wrong. That plus the theoretical bias that would require "too many miracles" for CF to work, meant that CF must be wrong. And, just as you can ignore the second 1000 UFO reports, you can ignore 1000 later cold fusion papers, first one by one if need be, then collectively. Believer in cold fusion == believer in UFOs == crank. Simple, really. I do not wish to denigrate the work of all CF critics. In a recent thread on usenet's sci.physics.fusion group ('Wikipedia "Cold fusion controversy"') several scientists repeated their criticism of both the calorimetry and mass-spectography in some CF papers. Some of the references made it to Wikipedia for a time. In my opinion cold fusion researchers need to closely examine and respond to these criticisms. Good luck with your research, Mr. Krivit. - Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 19 23:35:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K6ZJvj027890; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:35:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K6ZHDp027874; Fri, 19 May 2006 23:35:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 23:35:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060520063511517.0C9D32C00083@mwinf3101.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060520063510.00b9bcb0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 07:35:10 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: What's New Friday May 19, 2006 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:03 pm 19/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > >> [Original Message] >> From: What's New > To: > Date: 5/19/2006 1:36:40 PM > Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 19, 2006 > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 19 May 06 Washington, DC > > 1. DA VINCI CODE: CARDINALS COMPLAIN THAT THE NOVEL IS FICTION. > Aren't they always? Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical > Council for Culture, expressed shock this week at the Da Vinci > Code promotion: "It had nothing to do with the truth." Like > "transubstantiation" is the truth? ... That's right Porkie. Transubstantiation is the Truth. 8-) =============================================================== Down the centuries there have been over 100 miracles confirming the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. One of the most stupendous is the permanent miracle of Lanciano, Italy, detailed in our October 1999 number. In that case, a Host consecrated during an eighth century Mass turned into the flesh and blood of Christ which remain incorrupt and on display to this very day for the veneration of pilgrims. Proven by the most rigorous investigation of forensic science still to contain, after thirteen centuries, the properties of fresh blood (the same rare type as on the Shroud of Turin) and flesh of the muscular tissue from the heart, it has even been declared a "unique" and inexplicable wonder by the godless United Nations! Clearly, the history which follows is not as meticulously documented and verifiable as that of Lanciano and many other Eucharistic miracles officially recognised by the Church. Nonetheless, it is a most compelling and uplifting testimony in its own right which we offer for the edification of readers, not to say Bishop Bagobiri. Thanks to Christ to the World, No. 3, 2005, in which it appeared. Miracle of the Desecrated Host FR. PIUS RETTOB, MSC On Sunday, 25th October 1955, there was an important and historical event at Bunya Station, in the Diocese of Tanjung Selor, Indonesia. A Muslim man named Saleh cut a Holy Host and blood issued forth from that Host. For a long time that event was only a story and unsupported by any documentation. Saleh, who eventually converted, consented to tell the story to Fr. Rettob on November 28th, 2002. We are sorry that the other eyewitnesses had died so that we could not gather supporting data from them. However, we thought that, although the data was incomplete, better to have Saleh’s data written in this article than not to have anything for future records. Antonius Yohannes Saleh: The man who cut the Host at Bunya Station - Tarakan Parish Diocese of Tanjung Selor, Indonesia. Family background: Saleh is an only child. He was born on 1 October 1918 at Kulon Proga, Yogyakarta. His father is Kasan Prawiro, also from Kulon Proga, Yogyakarta and his mother is Marsioa from Blitar. His father and mother were farmers. >From childhood Saleh had been a follower of Islam because his parents and his family were Muslims. He was educated and formed in the tradition and practices of Islam. When he was five years old, he and his parents moved from Kulon Proga to Malan. In February 1953, he was married to Sumi. They had two children. Sayuti and Syani. However Sayuti died when she was 45 days old and shortly thereafter Sumi, his wife, also died. -------------------------- To Bunu seeking employment -------------------------- In December 1953, Saleh left Malang and went to Bunyu to seek employment. At Bunyu he was offered employment as a house servant by Mr Macma and Mrs Diny, a Dutch family, with a monthly wage of 150 Rupiahs, fifteen kilograms of rice and a carton of cigarettes, in addition to free accommodation at his master’s house which also included free food and drink. Saleh immediately accepted this offer. In 1955 his master returned to the Netherlands. Saleh was given a separation pay of 350 Rupiahs. With this money and the wages that he had saved for two years Saleh bought a plot of land at 400 Rupiahs and then built a house on that piece of land. Meanwhile he looked for emplyment to support his life. Not too long after, he received an offer as a building contractor from a Chinese descendant named Ham Lam. The monthly wage was 125 Rupiahs. He worked for Ham Lam for a year. ------------------------ Drawn to a Catholic girl ------------------------ There was a Catholic girl who was diligent in attending the Liturgy of the Church. Each time she went to the church she passed by Saleh’s home. Saleh always saw this beautiful girl. On one occasion, Saleh’s heart was drawn to the girl. He was determined to greet and befriend this beautiful girl. One day, when the girl returned from the church and passed by the house, Saleh greeted her kindly. She stopped and looked at Saleh. Saleh approached and shook hands while introducing himself to the girl. The girl kindly returned Saleh’s greeting. She introduced herself: "My name is Martha Suntrsih from Doplang, Cepu, Central Java. My parents died at Doplang and my younger brother, Warso, also died in Tawau. I am an orphan and I work at Bunyu for Mr Remuat from Manado as his maid. My monthly wage is 100 Rupiahs." Then Saleh asked Martha where she was going and why she always passed in front of Saleh’s house. Martha answered, "I have come from the church and I am going home. I always attend the religious service at the church and pass this way." Saleh asked her about her religion. Martha answered, "I am a Catholic." Then Martha said goodbye and continued on her way home. Saleh’s interest in Martha grew. Every day Saleh met and greeted Martha who passed in front of his house. After several meetings and becoming more acquainted, Saleh opened his heart to Martha about his desire to betroth Martha and make her his wife. Martha asked for several days to think about her answer. Each day Saleh pressed Martha to give confirmation as soon as possible. After several days Martha accepted Saleh’s proposal. ---------------------- Hatred of Christianity ---------------------- >From his childhood Saleh hated Christianity, including Catholicism. Saleh’s hatred was marked by his opinion that Christianity is the religion of the colonists, who at the time were Dutch. His hatred towards colonists made him also hate Christianity; hence Saleh always looked for ways to hinder this religion. At every opportunity, Saleh gathered small rocks which would be used to throw at a church building, while a congregation prayed. Quite often Saleh threw rocks at the Catholic church of Maria Renya Rosari Bunyu, where Martha was always praying. ------------------------ To be Muslim or Catholic ------------------------ Saleh and Martha began a new stage in their life, which was courtship. One interesting topic that was discussed together was religion. Saleh pressed Martha to follow him and to become a Muslim. On the other side, Martha defended her opinion that she would marry Saleh, only if Saleh became a Catholic. Each one defended his/her belief; no one was willing to give up. Meanwhile, Saleh was faithful, accompanying Martha everywhere, including bringing her to the Catholic church for religious services, especially to attend the Holy Mass. ----------------------------- "This is the Body of My Lord" ----------------------------- After several times of accompanying Martha to attend Holy Mass at the church, Saleh paid special attention during Holy Communion when Martha received the Holy Host. Saleh asked her about something that was white and appeared like paper which was received and eaten by Martha in the Church. With confidence Martha answered, "This is the Body of my Lord." Martha continued, "That is called the Holy Host, something that is most Holy and revered by Catholics." Saleh was surprised to hear that answer and sought ways to acquire the Holy Host. ----------------- The Bleeding Host ----------------- On Sunday 25th October 1955 there was a celebration of the Holy Mass at the church. Martha attended it and was accompanied by Saleh. After arriving at the Church, Saleh waited, watching from outside. Before Martha went to church, Saleh had asked Martha to bring a Holy Host home and then give it to him. If Martha did not fulfill this request then their relationship would be ended. Martha went to the church and attended Mass as usual. During Communion, Martha went forward with the other faithful people to receive the Holy Host. At that time the custom was that Catholics were to receive Holy Communion in their mouths. When Martha received the Holy Host from the priest, she did not immediately swallow it. Walking back to her seat she took the Holy Host out of her mouth and then she wrapped the Host and brought it home. She did this under duress and out of fear. Upon arriving home Martha handed the Host to Saleh at the house of Mr. Suro Tempe. Saleh received the Host and put it in his pocket. At that time, there were many people preparing a thanksgiving feast for the wedding anniversary of Mr Suro Tempe. There were some people cooking in the kitchen; others were playing cards and so on. While many people gathered at Mr Suro Tempe’s house, Saleh thought that this was the right moment to show everybody that what Martha believed was a lie or a vanity. Saleh asked for a knife from Martha and he cut the Holy Host in front of everyone, especially before his friends who were playing cards. However, what happened? From that Host issued much blood and spurted on everyone present. Many people’s clothing including Saleh’s was stained by the blood. Saleh was bewildered and afraid. He was paralyzed with fear and did not move from his seat. The same thing happened with his friends and all present. The news of this event was spread to people nearby. Many people gathered around. Some people, who were not present to see what Saleh had done, presumed that a murder had been committed and that the offender was Saleh. They reported the "murder" to the security agency. Soon, four policemen, who were Mr Payong, a Catholic from Flores, Mr Stephen, a Protestant from Ambon, Maluku, and two others who were Muslims had arrived at Mr Suro Tempe’s house. They were astounded and in awe to see so much blood. Without questioning and finding out what happened, the policemen put Saleh’s hands in shackles. Saleh was confused and afraid because he was aware that he did not kill anyone. Meanwhile blood still issued forth from the Holy Host. The policemen were also afraid and were confused about it. Mr Stephen, the policeman, had the initiative to call the priest from the church. The distance was one and a half kilometers. Coincidentally, Father Wilhelmus Yosephus Leeferink, MSF, was at the Bunyu church, and not too long afterwards, the priest arrived at the house of Mr Suro Tempe. The priest asked what happened but none answered. He repeated the same question but they were still silent. When the priest looked at the Holy Host which was issuing blood, he immediately knelt down and prayed with raised hands and then blessed the Holy Host. After the priest finished the blessing, the Holy Host stopped issuing blood. With fear and trembling, Saleh approached the priest and begged mercy and forgiveness for what he did. Once more the priest raised his hands and prayed and blessed Saleh. Impulse to convert During the day Saleh was filled with fear and confusion. During the night he could not sleep soundly. A conviction to become a Catholic slowly grew stronger in his heart. The next day, early in the morning, Saleh woke up from his sleep and went to the church. His intention was to meet with the priest and to declare his heart’s desire to become a Catholic and be catechized. When he arrived at the church nobody except the priest was present: Fr. Wilhelmus Yosephus Leeferink, MSF. Saleh expressed his heart’s desire to the priest. The priest kindly received Saleh’s intention. He suggested that Saleh should return to his home to meditate about the Bleeding Host and his decision. Meanwhile the priest would find a catechist to tutor and teach Saleh. A confirmation of this would be conveyed by the priest to Saleh. Saleh said goodbye to the priest and returned home. He immediately met Martha to express his desire to become a Catholic and to study the Faith. Martha received Saleh’s good intention. A few days later in 1956 they were married in a civil ceremony at Banyu Island. Because of the incident of the desecration of the Host, many people from other religions, especially from Islam, declared their desire to become Catholics. This caused many parties to threaten to kill Saleh. ------------------------------ Threats from local authorities ------------------------------ A few days later some people from the local authorities heard the news about the Bleeding Host. They were Muslims. Saleh and others who were present during the event were summoned by the local authorities. They strongly forbade them to speak about the incident to anyone, especially to Muslims. Every person, and especially Saleh, had their lives threatened if they spoke of this event to anyone. The incident therefore remained a secret from anyone else. -------------------------- Persecution and relocation -------------------------- Saleh was not at peace and was insecure living in Bunyu because of the persecution from the local authorities and the community who were mostly Muslims. Saleh and Martha decided to move to Tarakan. Saleh used this chance to study the Catholic faith at Tarakan for two weeks with Fr. A. van de Graff, MSF, who was from the Netherlands. Saleh was determined to learn Catholicism and be baptized as soon as possible. However, the people from Banyu followed Saleh. His life was once again threatened. They then moved to Tanjung Selor. However, even there the persecution continued for 1 year. Finally they moved to Berau and stayed there. ------------- Life in Berau ------------- To live safely, Saleh and Martha stayed a little further at Tanjung Redeb, Berau. On arriving at Tanjung Redeb they stayed at the house of Mr Lusy Mado, a retired soldier from Flores who was a Catholic. In Tanjung Redeb, Berau, circumstances allowed Saleh and Martha to live safely and peacefully so they decided to live there. On the 26th October 1966, Saleh was baptised with the name "Atonius Yohannes Saleh", and also received the sacrament of marriage with Martha on the same day from Fr. A. van de Graff, MSF, at Tanjung Redeb. The baptismal godparents and marriage witnesses were: Aloysius T. Sudibo and Margaretha Tjuoc Mei Lin. Anton Saleh, his new nickname, started his new life as a Catholic. He continued to deepen his faith with catechism lessons and strove to become a good Catholic. He proved his growing faith by assiduous prayer and liturgical worship, and was helpful towards others who also sought to become Catholics and generously helped needy and poor people. Anton Saleh’s lifestyle was fully supported by his wife, Martha. The lives of Antonius Saleh, together with his wife, were examples for other people and many were attracted to the Catholic faith. However, this couple were childless. They kept the Bleeding Host event as a secret for a few years. Around the 1970’s and 80’s when the situation in Bunyu was at risk, the marvellous incident slowly began to be heard at several places and spread everywhere. -------- Healings -------- After baptism in 1966 Antonius Saleh felt something strange about himself. He had a special healing charism. By using the water which was blessed by Fr. A. van der Graff, MSF, and Fr. Carlo Beriolini Yalai, OMI, or the Holy Water from Lourdes, France, or the Holy Water from the Marian Grotto in Sendangsono, Indonesia, with prayers, the water given to the sick to drink or to dab on the affected area of their bodies, resulted in many of the sick being healed, the crippled walked, the blind saw, the deaf heard and so on. Similar healings are stilled performed by Antonius Saleh, although now he has become old. He gives much thanksgiving for the graces that God has given him, especially the healing charism. ----------------------- Giving witness at Bunyu ----------------------- On Sunday 4th June 2000, coincidentally with the first Holy Communion of seven children, Saleh was invited by Fr. Dino Tessari, OMI, to give witness about the event of the Bleeding Host and to show the location where Mr. Suro Tempe’s house was; where Saleh cut the Holy Host. Unfortunately at that time Anton Saleh was not accompanied by his wife. She had died at Tanjung Redeb, Berau, three months before. After Antonius Saleh gave witness, he, with F. Dino Tessari, OMI, and several leaders from Bunyu searched for the residence of Mr. Suro Tempe. With the assistance of Mr and Mrs Djoui who knew the exact location of the house they found the correct location. However, the house is not there anymore, only a field of grass remains. The event and, above all, the witness of Anton Saleh himself have strengthened and fortified the faith of the people of Bunyu. During a recent homily a priest told an interesting story of Pope John Paul’s visit to the Baltimore area in 1995: The Pope was scheduled for a quick trip by the local seminary. But even though it was not scheduled, he wanted to go in and pray at their chapel. So a security team and German Shepherd canine unit that was specially trained to find human beings - using their superior sense of smell, like the ones used after the September 11 attack to find people in the rubble - were sent to search for people hiding in the various rooms. They searched the halls and rooms and found nothing, and then were sent into the chapel where the Pope intended to pray. They sniffed in all the aisles and then came to the tabernacle which held the consecrated Hosts. The dogs sniffed and pointed, indicating that they sensed a human being present in the holy tabernacle, and would not leave until their handlers called them off. This was witnessed by over ten security people. ======================================================== ..."And if we're the good guys, they get the physics wrong, like in Chain Reaction, where cold fusion works." Cold Fusion does work. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 00:12:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K7CJ5a008162; Sat, 20 May 2006 00:12:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K7CGSb008131; Sat, 20 May 2006 00:12:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 00:12:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <160001c67bdc$b2e87c40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 09:12:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the right thing to do in a purely electric vehicle. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel > and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. > > or no? > > Harry > > > hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michel Jullian >> >>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? >> >> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. It may >> have been done already actually. >> >> <><><><><><> >> >> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ >> ___________________________________________________ >> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >> http://mail.netscape.com >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 00:28:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K7SJLE013644; Sat, 20 May 2006 00:28:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K7SHuR013618; Sat, 20 May 2006 00:28:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 00:28:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,149,1146412800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="312809696:sNHT37115292" Message-ID: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 17:28:08 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010903010104020008050704" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010903010104020008050704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Prime Minister, > >As well as having Uranium resources among the largest in the >World, Australia has about a million square kilometers of desert >admirably suited to the collection of solar energy, and pretty >much useless for anything else. In fact we could more than supply >the entire planet with solar based energy, giving us a new export >industry greater than any we currently have. >Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses, >with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring >no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface" >technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently >is (guesstimate). That would not just make it competitive with all >existing technologies, it would make it cheaper than anything >else. >Furthermore modular construction can be used for a solar >installation, with small segments being brought "on line" as they >are completed, whereas a nuclear plant doesn't start producing >power until the whole thing is completed. > >The expertise already exists in Australian universities, >particularly UNSW. > >To top it off, it would vastly improve Australia's "green" image >in the World. > >R. van Spaandonk >Upper Ferntree Gully >Vic. > > > The problem that needs to be dealt with is not cheep generation of energy. We have that in spades, wave power could power the planet twice over, wind could power half the world. Roof top solar could power the average city if solar cells replaced tiles on the sunward side of the roof. We don't have a shortage of energy technologies we have a delivery problem. Wind, waves, solar, etc are not continuous but key market driving demands are continuous. So you need to get the energy to market when and where it is needed. That means energy transport and storage! Central Australia, the wild wave battered coasts of Tasmania, or the tidal power resources of the Kimberly coast are all abundant energy sources but their all in the wrong place. We need energy where we live; where our cities stand high. We need to be able to store and ship the stuff. Superconductors where the dream answer of the 1990's but the power density has failed to emerge. Yes superconductors are loss free in theory but to commercialize a 5 thousand mile line from the outback to Asia you must have a system that is cheap relative to the power density and requires little or no refrigeration. The energy of the refrigeration becomes a significant loss if your doing large superconductor systems. Thus in reality its not loss free. The great irony is that we have had a solution to both large scale shipping and storage of energy since the 1800's its *compressed air*. Modern studies have not been made but a compressed air line across Australia would be possible. Compressors are over 90% efficient. 2 meter diameter steel lined concrete Pipes can be made largely leak free. Workable pressures would be 50 atmospheres. A gale in a pile. Pipelines under the sea are not impossible particularly if your crossing shallow seas [ The Arafura and Banda sea are not that deep. The sea bed from Bali to Malaysia is only a few tens of meters deep and in places a path only 50 meters deep can be mapped.] You must ballast the pipe properly. Yes pneumatic systems have frictional losses but at a few percent per hundred kilometres its better than the losses in high voltage and superconductors. Its also a storage system. The air in the line goes in by day and may be drawn out at night with only a small drop in pressure. Large volumes of air can be diverted into former gas baring strata and just as the gas was retained in the past at several atmospheres the air will be today. One power storage plant using compressed air pushed down an old gas well already exists and is commercial. For some strange reason the world has chosen to ignore the relatively simple physics of pneumatic solutions in favour of other more exotic and expensive system that may promise solutions on some distant day. Plasma fusion, superconductors and magnetic levitation trains are all dreams that have blocked simpler solutions. The electric tracked hovercraft [also called airfilm trains] is a transport solution that would and could deliver 400 kph trains in the 1970's. It was thought that magnetic systems would be silent and hovercraft aren't, so research stopped on the latter but with refrigeration and sonic booms the 'mag levs' are just as loud as airfilm.Yet we still await more expensive magnetic levitation trains. --------------010903010104020008050704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin van Spaandonk wrote: 
Prime Minister,

As well as having Uranium resources among the largest in the
World, Australia has about a million square kilometers of desert
admirably suited to the collection of solar energy, and pretty
much useless for anything else. In fact we could more than supply
the entire planet with solar based energy, giving us a new export
industry greater than any we currently have.
Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses,
with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring
no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface"
technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently
is (guesstimate). That would not just make it competitive with all
existing technologies, it would make it cheaper than anything
else.
Furthermore modular construction can be used for a solar
installation, with small segments being brought "on line" as they
are completed, whereas a nuclear plant doesn't start producing
power until the whole thing is completed.

The expertise already exists in Australian universities,
particularly UNSW.

To top it off, it would vastly improve Australia's "green" image
in the World.

R. van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
Upper Ferntree Gully
Vic.
The problem that needs to be dealt with is not cheep generation of energy. We have that in spades, wave power could power the planet twice over, wind could power half the world. Roof top solar could power the average city if solar cells replaced tiles on the sunward side of the roof.
We don't have a shortage of energy technologies we have a delivery problem. Wind, waves, solar, etc are not continuous but key market driving demands are continuous. So you need to get the energy to market when and where it is needed. That means energy transport and storage!
Central Australia, the wild wave battered coasts of Tasmania, or the tidal power resources of the Kimberly coast are all abundant energy sources but their all in the wrong place. We need energy where we live; where our cities stand high. We need to be able to store and ship the stuff.
    Superconductors where the dream answer of the 1990's but the power density has failed to emerge. Yes superconductors are loss free in theory but to commercialize a 5 thousand mile line from the outback to Asia you must have a system that is cheap relative to the power density and requires little or no refrigeration. The energy of the refrigeration becomes a significant loss if your doing large superconductor systems. Thus in reality its not loss free.
    The great irony is that we have had a solution to both large scale shipping and storage of energy since the 1800's its compressed air. Modern studies have not been made but a compressed air line across Australia would be possible. Compressors are over 90% efficient. 2 meter diameter steel lined concrete Pipes can be made largely leak free. Workable pressures would be 50 atmospheres. A gale in a pile.  Pipelines under the sea are not impossible particularly if your crossing shallow seas [ The Arafura and Banda sea are not that deep. The sea bed from Bali to Malaysia is only a few tens of meters deep and in places a path only 50 meters deep can be mapped.] You must ballast the pipe properly.
    Yes pneumatic systems have frictional losses but at a few percent per hundred kilometres its better than the losses in high voltage and superconductors. Its also a storage system. The air in the line goes in by day and may be drawn out at night with only a small drop in pressure. Large volumes of air can be diverted into former gas baring strata and just as the gas was retained in the past  at several atmospheres the air will be today. One power storage plant using compressed air pushed down an old gas well already exists and is commercial.
    For some strange reason the world has chosen to ignore the relatively simple physics of pneumatic solutions in favour of other more exotic and expensive system that may promise solutions on some distant day. Plasma fusion, superconductors and magnetic levitation trains are all dreams that have blocked simpler solutions.
The electric tracked hovercraft [also called airfilm trains] is a transport solution that would and could deliver 400 kph trains in the 1970's. It was thought that magnetic systems would be silent and hovercraft aren't, so research stopped on the latter but with refrigeration and sonic booms the 'mag levs' are just as loud as airfilm.Yet we still await more expensive magnetic levitation trains. --------------010903010104020008050704-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 01:45:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4K8inFc005699; Sat, 20 May 2006 01:44:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4K8igw8005647; Sat, 20 May 2006 01:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 01:44:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <162c01c67be9$a1f6f2b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <160001c67bdc$b2e87c40$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:44:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <0WX8ZB.A.HYB.6btbEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry let me explain. Energy has to come from outside the system, e.g. from a filling station or from the electric mains socket. Tapping ambient EM radiations would work. If you aren't lucky enough to live at the foot of the Eiffel tower or similar powerful radioemitter you could have photovoltaic panels embedded in the car's body which would tap the ambient light in daytime (plus the streetlight's light in nighttime if you don't have a garage but that's negligible compared to the sun's 1kW/m2 :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) > > Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the right thing to > do in a purely electric vehicle. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > >> hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel >> and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. >> >> or no? >> >> Harry >> >> >> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michel Jullian >>> >>>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? >>> >>> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. It may >>> have been done already actually. >>> >>> <><><><><><> >>> >>> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ >>> ___________________________________________________ >>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>> http://mail.netscape.com >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 04:00:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KB03Vb019042; Sat, 20 May 2006 04:00:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KAnBaF013202; Sat, 20 May 2006 03:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 03:49:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=sdMAvwdKS1woiAHLIMWDjZ6nots2F0GoMNBxZdDhSTfJk21xCnvxnzm+KqcBuWLP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065620104840987@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 04:48:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94092842e09fbe78aa7ce980ca810ce91e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 5,112,702 May 1992 "This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/19/2006 9:06:07 PM This doesn't take into account that the electrolysis process can produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH plus 2 lbs of H2 at 50 KW-Hr ($5.00) at about $0.15/lb while the electrolysis H2 can be used in the Anthraquinone Process to produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH. Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ----> 2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency. 3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
5,112,702     May 1992  

"This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations. "

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/19/2006 9:06:07 PM

This doesn't take into account that the electrolysis process can produce

another 34 lbs of HO-OH plus 2 lbs of H2 at 50 KW-Hr ($5.00) at about $0.15/lb

while the electrolysis H2 can be used in the Anthraquinone Process to produce another 34 lbs of HO-OH.

Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ---->  2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency.

3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 04:12:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KBCdFb023593; Sat, 20 May 2006 04:12:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KBCcbX023574; Sat, 20 May 2006 04:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 04:12:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ee7uVcx/Tse6ESwEUIuYl2ScmMYTnunjF4gZI3f+l3aVqQCaLDiKvq4GSWWalLkB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <417-220065620111220848@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 05:12:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94026fbd8ca4f854fbba579a92afc484421350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 16,712,949Electrochemical synthesis of hydrogen peroxide 26,592,840Highly pure aqueous hydrogen peroxide solutions, method for producing same and their use 36,368,488Modified platinum substrates for oxygen reduction 46,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition 55,645,700Polymer membrane based electrolytic cell and process for the direct generation of hydrogen peroxide in liquid streams 65,378,436Method and apparatus for producing hydrogen peroxide 75,112,702Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/20/2006 4:49:57 AM Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE 5,112,702 May 1992 "This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/19/2006 9:06:07 PM of HO-OH. Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ----> 2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency. 3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/20/2006 4:49:57 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE

5,112,702     May 1992  

"This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations. "

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/19/2006 9:06:07 PM
 of HO-OH.

Then 2 HO-OH (68 Lbs) ---->  2 H2O + O2 + 3.6E8 Joules = 70KW-Hrs at 70% ICE efficiency.

3.6E8 joules is equivalent to 3 gallons of gasoline at 115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule/gallon.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <410-2200656201112441@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <184671-2200656201112442@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <63342-2200656201112443@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <265003-2200656201112444@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <191694-2200656201112445@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <157245-2200656201112446@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <114786-2200656201112447@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 06:15:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KDFp5R008604; Sat, 20 May 2006 06:15:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KDFiq5008564; Sat, 20 May 2006 06:15:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 06:15:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hreByxkJqUUXvgrFuZpnlzb72Xz8kRe4UvqLa9sxTzYZcMWulpVF5FS8iW2xio8I; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <417-220065620131535315@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 07:15:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c635c4dce1f5cb55bc913cfc88ad1238350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.235 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To sweeten the pot so to speak, a simultaneous injection of 50% HO-OH and 50% Ethanol (Pilot Fuel) looks interesting. The 10% ethanol "beer" can upgraded to 50% or more onboard using engine coolant or exhaust heat. Same for HO-OH. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~sncherne/formalreport.html " In the next 48 hours the mash is mixed in a fermenter before entering the distiller. After the mash is removed from the fermenter, approximately 10 percent of it becomes ethanol." Bottom Line. Electrolysis-produced Hydrogen Peroxide is a viable means of Hydrogen Production, Storage, and Transport. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/20/2006 5:13:25 AM Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE 16,712,949Electrochemical synthesis of hydrogen peroxide 26,592,840Highly pure aqueous hydrogen peroxide solutions, method for producing same and their use 36,368,488Modified platinum substrates for oxygen reduction 46,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition 55,645,700Polymer membrane based electrolytic cell and process for the direct generation of hydrogen peroxide in liquid streams 65,378,436Method and apparatus for producing hydrogen peroxide 75,112,702Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
To sweeten the pot so to speak, a simultaneous injection
of  50% HO-OH   and  50% Ethanol (Pilot Fuel) looks interesting.
 
The 10% ethanol  "beer" can upgraded to 50% or more onboard
using engine coolant or exhaust heat.  Same for HO-OH.
 
 
" In the next 48 hours the mash is mixed in a fermenter before entering the distiller. 
After the mash is removed from the fermenter, approximately 10 percent of it becomes ethanol."
 
Bottom Line. Electrolysis-produced Hydrogen Peroxide is a viable means of Hydrogen Production,
Storage, and Transport.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/20/2006 5:13:25 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext.gif Content-Id: <410-220065620131520634274@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(1).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(1).gif Content-Id: <184671-220065620131520634275@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(2).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(2).gif Content-Id: <63342-220065620131520634276@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(3).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(3).gif Content-Id: <265003-220065620131520634277@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(4).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(4).gif Content-Id: <191694-220065620131520634278@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(5).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(5).gif Content-Id: <157245-220065620131520634279@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="ftext(6).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ftext(6).gif Content-Id: <114786-220065620131520634280@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:25:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KHPASZ001822; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:25:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KHP2fY001772; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:25:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:25:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c67c32$3fe159a0$28027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:24:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67C08.567A0E20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67C08.567A0E20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C67C08.567B94C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C67C08.567B94C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Robin and Wesley, Australia has the interesting opportunity to perform in the world. For = sure, we will return to a simplier way of life if for no other reason = than we can't afford the luxury of any more advances in civilization = . The advances in battery technology can provide the solution to powering = vehicles. Vehicles must become more simple like a 3 wheel battery = operated bicycle for transportation and light hauling. Roof top solar = powered battery chargers make sense whne you think about it. Presently, crude petroleum is in abundent supply with a forecast of = increased production. The devil in the details is the cost of production = and the politics. Add the proposed shift by OPEC nations to use Euros = in lieu of US dollars as the exchange media and a new twist emerges = because recognition of the Euro as the currency means the dollar is cast = adrift to float like the Peso. China recognizes this reality. When, not = if , this change in currency of choice happens, the US has few options. = This eventuality has stymied US energy planning and has and will lead to = all sorts of mischief . Australia has the choice to go Nuclear but common sense screams out NO!. = A present design Nuke plant has a half life of 50 years at the most and = then must be buried in a concrete tomb for 250,000 years because of the = steel piping fatigue. There is no practical way to " service" a super = radioactive plant from the inside. Every Nuke plant in the US is aging = and faces shutdown and burying. Someday our grandchildren will wonder = about us and our so called JFK " man on the moon" insanity. Australia has the choice and chance to make some intelligent moves = while the opportunity presents itself. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C67C08.567B94C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Robin and Wesley,
 
Australia has the interesting opportunity to perform in the world. = For=20 sure, we will return to a simplier way of life if for no other reason = than we=20 can't afford the luxury of any more advances in civilization = <grin>.
 
The advances in battery technology can provide the solution to = powering=20 vehicles. Vehicles must become more simple like a 3 wheel battery = operated=20 bicycle for transportation and light hauling. Roof top solar powered = battery=20 chargers make sense whne you think about it.
 
Presently, crude petroleum is in abundent supply with a forecast of = increased production. The devil in the details is the cost of production = and the=20 politics. Add the proposed shift  by OPEC nations to use Euros in = lieu of=20 US dollars as the exchange media and a new twist emerges because = recognition of=20 the Euro as the currency means the dollar is cast adrift to float like = the Peso.=20 China recognizes this reality. When, not if , this change in currency of = choice=20 happens, the US has few options. This eventuality has stymied US energy = planning=20 and has and will lead to all sorts of mischief .
 
Australia has the choice to go Nuclear but common sense screams out = NO!. A=20 present design Nuke plant has a half life of 50 years at the most and = then must=20 be buried in a concrete tomb for 250,000 years because of the steel = piping=20 fatigue. There is no practical way to " service" a super radioactive = plant from=20 the inside. Every Nuke plant in the US is aging and faces shutdown and = burying.=20 Someday our grandchildren will wonder about us and our so = called  JFK=20 " man on the moon" insanity.
 
Australia  has the choice and chance to make some intelligent = moves=20 while the opportunity presents itself.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C67C08.567B94C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67C08.567A0E20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c67c32$3ed2cfd0$28027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67C08.567A0E20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:37:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KHbiYx006851; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:37:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KHbhmg006831; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:37:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:37:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001901c67c33$a4ac9d30$28027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Proper Scientific Refutations Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:34:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67C09.BB500010" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67C09.BB500010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67C09.BB500010" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67C09.BB500010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWalter Faxon wrote.. > Clearly the editors of general science journals do not themselves have the expertise to directly criticize the methodology of most CF papers. It's much simpler to rely on their previous conclusions. Howdy Walter.. Oh! Were it that simple. I mentioned to Steven Krivit that we are also = caught up in a Fraternity feud that makes the Duke U episode kid stuff.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67C09.BB500010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Walter Faxon wrote..

> Clearly the editors of general science
journals do not=20 themselves have the expertise to directly criticize the
methodology = of most=20 CF papers.  It's much simpler to rely on their
previous=20 conclusions.

Howdy Walter..

Oh! Were it that simple. I mentioned to Steven Krivit that we are = also caught=20 up in a Fraternity feud that makes the Duke U episode kid stuff.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67C09.BB500010-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67C09.BB500010 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c67c33$a422fad0$28027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67C09.BB500010-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 10:49:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KHnTOc018204; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:49:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KHnSTe018181; Sat, 20 May 2006 10:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:49:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: A Nuclear future for Australia? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060520174925.DC2F92F5AC@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 13:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <4cSPED.A.BcE.oa1bEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses, > with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring > no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface" > technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently > is (guesstimate). That would not just make it competitive with all > existing technologies, it would make it cheaper than anything > else. You just let me know when someone actually wants to buy miles and miles of "dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical fresnel lenses". I stand ready to make more than anyone could possibly use. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 15:23:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KMNId5019454; Sat, 20 May 2006 15:23:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KMNFRe019438; Sat, 20 May 2006 15:23:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 15:23:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 18:23:13 -0400 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <17837301786a39.1786a391783730@ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An initial push would be required (perhaps from a batery), but once the car was up to speed the power to maintain the speed would be supplied electrostatically rather than electromagnetically. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel Jullian Date: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:44 am Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > Harry let me explain. Energy has to come from outside the system, > e.g. from > a filling station or from the electric mains socket. > > Tapping ambient EM radiations would work. If you aren't lucky > enough to live > at the foot of the Eiffel tower or similar powerful radioemitter > you could > have photovoltaic panels embedded in the car's body which would > tap the > ambient light in daytime (plus the streetlight's light in > nighttime if you > don't have a garage but that's negligible compared to the sun's > 1kW/m2 :) > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > > > No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) > > > > Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the > right thing to > > do in a purely electric vehicle. > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Harry Veeder" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM > > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > > > > >> hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel > >> and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. > >> > >> or no? > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> > >> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Michel Jullian > >>> > >>>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? > >>> > >>> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. > It may > >>> have been done already actually. > >>> > >>> <><><><><><> > >>> > >>> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ > >>> ___________________________________________________ > >>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > >>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > >>> http://mail.netscape.com > >>> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 16:28:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KNSBhi014769; Sat, 20 May 2006 16:28:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4KNSA81014747; Sat, 20 May 2006 16:28:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 16:28:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <175601c67c65$0d68a220$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <17837301786a39.1786a391783730@ncf.ca> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:28:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <1dEc1.A.XmD.JY6bEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No I am afraid it wouldn't work, even with an initial push :) This would only work if the car expended no power to maintain it's speed (which is not the case), and if all efficiencies in the system were 100% (which is not the case), otherwise each time you go round the closed power loop you loose power, perpetual motion just doesn't work you know :/ Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:23 AM Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > > An initial push would be required (perhaps from a batery), but once > the car was up to speed the power to maintain the speed would be > supplied electrostatically rather than electromagnetically. > > Harry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michel Jullian > Date: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:44 am > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > >> Harry let me explain. Energy has to come from outside the system, >> e.g. from >> a filling station or from the electric mains socket. >> >> Tapping ambient EM radiations would work. If you aren't lucky >> enough to live >> at the foot of the Eiffel tower or similar powerful radioemitter >> you could >> have photovoltaic panels embedded in the car's body which would >> tap the >> ambient light in daytime (plus the streetlight's light in >> nighttime if you >> don't have a garage but that's negligible compared to the sun's >> 1kW/m2 :) >> >> Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:12 AM >> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >> >> >> > No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) >> > >> > Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the >> right thing to >> > do in a purely electric vehicle. >> > >> > Michel >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Harry Veeder" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM >> > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >> > >> > >> >> hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel >> >> and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. >> >> >> >> or no? >> >> >> >> Harry >> >> >> >> >> >> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Michel Jullian >> >>> >> >>>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? >> >>> >> >>> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. >> It may >> >>> have been done already actually. >> >>> >> >>> <><><><><><> >> >>> >> >>> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ >> >>> ___________________________________________________ >> >>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >> >>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >> >>> http://mail.netscape.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 22:49:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L5nNDu011759; Sat, 20 May 2006 22:49:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L5nGfv011688; Sat, 20 May 2006 22:49:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 22:49:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <446FFF3D.20106@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 00:48:45 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Transubstantiation References: <2.2.32.20060520063510.00b9bcb0@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060520063510.00b9bcb0@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer wrote: >At 09:03 pm 19/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > >>Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) >> >> >> >>>[Original Message] >>>From: What's New >>>1. DA VINCI CODE: CARDINALS COMPLAIN THAT THE NOVEL IS FICTION. >>>Aren't they always? Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical >>>Council for Culture, expressed shock this week at the Da Vinci >>>Code promotion: "It had nothing to do with the truth." Like >>>"transubstantiation" is the truth? ... >>> >>> > >That's right Porkie. Transubstantiation is the Truth. 8-) > > Excellent post Frank! I've been watching Fr. John Corappi on EWTN, I just ignore my differences with Catholicism and focus on what we agree on, the inerrorancy of the Bible. Porkie, eh, I thought Parksie was humorous, but you've done me one better. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 23:44:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L6iCRS007343; Sat, 20 May 2006 23:44:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L6iBc1007330; Sat, 20 May 2006 23:44:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 23:44:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X6QyEX1JFnRnju2PMfTs5gSytMQ2OcH1WHbLhrwmnEHn8e7F1ljF8Wefa+kcOaMP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006502164156609@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HO-OH Boy, Choices Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 00:41:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d7dbf687c4abc9f41b472efbdc48e0ad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.62 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 2 H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) + energy <-----> 2 HO-OH (liquid) HO-OH (liquid) + energy <-----> 2 OH (gas) 2 H2O <----> H3O + + OH- (Freebie) H3O+ + O2 + OH - <-----> 2 HO-OH (Almost Freebie?) HOO - H Boy. :-) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
2 H2O (liquid) + O2  (gas) +  energy <----->  2 HO-OH (liquid)
 
HO-OH  (liquid) + energy <----->  2   OH (gas)
 
2 H2O <---->  H3O +   +    OH-  (Freebie)
 
H3O+  +  O2  +  OH -    <----->    2  HO-OH   (Almost Freebie?)
 
HOO - H   Boy.  :-)
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 20 23:54:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L6sUwK011655; Sat, 20 May 2006 23:54:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L6sTeQ011639; Sat, 20 May 2006 23:54:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 23:54:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino - orgone again Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 16:54:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3qvv62t0hm3inn2c304s08srloh15imoup@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 21 May 2006 06:54:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4L6sQRU011611 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, According to Mills, the ionization energy of H[n=1/23] is 19.26 eV. For H[n=1/24] this is only 0.6945 eV, and for H[n=1/25] there is no longer a hydride possible. Now suppose that as Jones has suggested, hydrinos shrink in the Solar atmosphere over geologic time, and get carried to the Earth on the Solar wind. hydrinohydride being a negative ion might be loosely attached to the positive end of a polar water molecule high in the atmosphere, and come down as rain water. Because the ionization energy of H[n=1/24] is less than that of water, it could be electrolyzed at a lower voltage than water, and hence extracted as pure H[n=1/24], without any other hydrinos (or even H2 or O2) being mixed in (hence the claims that "this is not electrolysis"). Also, because of the low ionization energy it would probably pass easily through metals, picking up and losing an electron continually, just as happens to metal atoms themselves. However because it is extremely small, it could easily wander through the interstitial spaces in a metal lattice during the moments that it is in its neutral state. Even hydrogen atoms can manage this with some metals, and H[n=1/24]hydride is both smaller and more easily ionized than H. Once H[n=1/24] ends up in a car engine, and comes in contact with either Ar+ or O++ in the plasma created by the spark, it can be catalyzed to H[n=1/25] or H[n=1/26] releasing 8485 eV or 9178 eV respectively during the very first shrinkage reaction. The released energy serves to ionize more Ar and O creating more catalyst ions, further catalyzing shrinkage. Because the electrolysis process actually absorbs energy with little or no hydrino shrinkage taking place, energy is not liberated in the electrolysis cell at all, and the soft vacuum causes it to cool. These well shrunken hydrinos don't last long in the environment, and so are best "harvested" directly from a rain storm during and shortly after the Solar wind from Solar flares or CMEs has impinged on the Earth's atmosphere. (Hence the various anecdotal claims that "it's the water that matters"). This also explains the source of purported excess power reported by the Graneau's. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 00:52:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L7qI6s001380; Sun, 21 May 2006 00:52:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L7qHwl001366; Sun, 21 May 2006 00:52:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 00:52:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=f3uzwgCn1Fydq9rl6iPqmwmI3yR6er58RE9zM+dcyXX/aQPcTuQKLDN2L/HjKntL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200650217524698@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: HO-OH Boy, Choices Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:52:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940361da677730d8e6a33e7d21f0cfdb01e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII OTOH. HO-OH <----> H-OH + O + 105,000 joule/mole = ~ 1.1 eV/molecule The H-OH bond is published as being 4.53 eV. The O-H bond in OH is 5.22 eV. 2 H-OH + electrolysis + O2 (gas -air) ----> 2 H + 2 OH + O2 ----> 2 HO-OH (liquid) or 4 OH (gas-air) Easier in the Low Pressure-Low Temperature , ~ 5,000 cm^2 surface area Helmholtz Layer Interface Catalyzed "Joe Cell"? In the Combustion Cylinder: 4 OH (gas-air) -----> 2 H2O (gas-air) + O2 (gas-air) + Heat ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/21/2006 12:44:56 AM Subject: Re: HO-OH Boy, Choices 2 H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) + energy <-----> 2 HO-OH (liquid) HO-OH (liquid) + energy <-----> 2 OH (gas) 2 H2O <----> H3O + + OH- (Freebie) H3O+ + O2 + OH - <-----> 2 HO-OH (Almost Freebie?) HOO - H Boy. :-) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
OTOH.
 
HO-OH <----> H-OH + O + 105,000 joule/mole = ~ 1.1 eV/molecule
 
The H-OH bond is published as being 4.53 eV.  The O-H bond in OH is 5.22 eV.
 
2 H-OH  + electrolysis + O2 (gas -air) ----> 2 H + 2 OH + O2 ----> 2 HO-OH  (liquid)
or 4 OH (gas-air)
 
Easier in the Low Pressure-Low Temperature , ~ 5,000 cm^2 surface area
Helmholtz Layer Interface Catalyzed "Joe Cell"?
 
In the Combustion Cylinder: 4 OH (gas-air) -----> 2 H2O (gas-air) + O2 (gas-air) + Heat
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/21/2006 12:44:56 AM
Subject: Re: HO-OH Boy, Choices

2 H2O (liquid) + O2  (gas) +  energy <----->  2 HO-OH (liquid)
 
HO-OH  (liquid) + energy <----->  2   OH (gas)
 
2 H2O <---->  H3O +   +    OH-  (Freebie)
 
H3O+  +  O2  +  OH -    <----->    2  HO-OH   (Almost Freebie?)
 
HOO - H   Boy.  :-)
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 01:03:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L83gtN006570; Sun, 21 May 2006 01:03:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L83flj006544; Sun, 21 May 2006 01:03:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:03:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gLEY0oY25dJPESbft30WwvSZBH8s3szubMC1WpNqtAs8vK/62FvjQmMXoGW7bO3A; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065021833551@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Hydrino - orgone again Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 02:03:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401d4187789a0386c4730b36c04907ce83350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Get the same results with Ubiquitous Electronium (mass 2x Electron) (*e-) especially in Argon-40 and rainwater, Robin. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Robin van Spaandonk > To: > Date: 5/21/2006 12:55:15 AM > Subject: Hydrino - orgone again > > Hi, > > According to Mills, the ionization energy of H[n=1/23] is 19.26 > eV. For H[n=1/24] this is only 0.6945 eV, and for H[n=1/25] there > is no longer a hydride possible. Now suppose that as Jones has > suggested, hydrinos shrink in the Solar atmosphere over geologic > time, and get carried to the Earth on the Solar wind. > hydrinohydride being a negative ion might be loosely attached to > the positive end of a polar water molecule high in the atmosphere, > and come down as rain water. Because the ionization energy of > H[n=1/24] is less than that of water, it could be electrolyzed at > a lower voltage than water, and hence extracted as pure H[n=1/24], > without any other hydrinos (or even H2 or O2) being mixed in > (hence the claims that "this is not electrolysis"). Also, because > of the low ionization energy it would probably pass easily through > metals, picking up and losing an electron continually, just as > happens to metal atoms themselves. However because it is extremely > small, it could easily wander through the interstitial spaces in a > metal lattice during the moments that it is in its neutral state. > Even hydrogen atoms can manage this with some metals, and > H[n=1/24]hydride is both smaller and more easily ionized than H. > > Once H[n=1/24] ends up in a car engine, and comes in contact with > either Ar+ or O++ in the plasma created by the spark, it can be > catalyzed to H[n=1/25] or H[n=1/26] releasing 8485 eV or 9178 eV > respectively during the very first shrinkage reaction. The > released energy serves to ionize more Ar and O creating more > catalyst ions, further catalyzing shrinkage. > > Because the electrolysis process actually absorbs energy with > little or no hydrino shrinkage taking place, energy is not > liberated in the electrolysis cell at all, and the soft vacuum > causes it to cool. > > These well shrunken hydrinos don't last long in the environment, > and so are best "harvested" directly from a rain storm during and > shortly after the Solar wind from Solar flares or CMEs has > impinged on the Earth's atmosphere. (Hence the various anecdotal > claims that "it's the water that matters"). > > This also explains the source of purported excess power reported > by the Graneau's. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 01:17:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4L8HKDc011981; Sun, 21 May 2006 01:17:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4L8HJGn011965; Sun, 21 May 2006 01:17:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:17:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:17:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <657072ludvcbjdee8ufe3un7jt9qi6qljc@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 21 May 2006 08:17:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4L8HHLW011910 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Oops! - H[n=1/24]hydride is an even better "alkali metal" than the real alkali metals, so it isn't just going to sit quietly in a water molecule, it's going to reduce the hydrogen, and very quickly at that! Consequently, this whole scenario doesn't work. To compound the error, the energies I calculated were total shrinkage energies, not just for the next step. They should have been 666 eV for Ar+ and 1360 eV for O++. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 07:27:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LERPaZ017799; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:27:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LERNIa017780; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:27:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 07:27:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002b01c67ce2$aba49160$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <657072ludvcbjdee8ufe3un7jt9qi6qljc@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Hydrino - orgone - or Special-K? Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 07:27:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <9IcM2.A.vVE.LjHcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin > They should have been 666 eV for Ar+ and 1360 eV for O++. These energies are in the range seen in "efficient radiation" but the total fit into the Chandra data - is better for an Auger Cascade involving C/O/Fe atoms, wherein there are known "steps" of radiation, and at definite ratios coming from the primary heavy elements which we know to be in comets. In trying to tailor the earthbound scenario into Mill's CQM methodology of further shrinkage, and ignoring the possibility that the energy is really coming from ZPE via the hydrino (as an *inactive* intermediary, or agent), one can avoid the negative baggage of ZPE... and Puthoff's work ... which Mills' has admitted to dislike. But Mills stubbornness may lead down the path which is not the one where the (minuscule amount of good) evidence is now pointing us. He has chosen the all-or-none route. However, the alternative viewpoint becomes this bastard, anti-Ockham "jump" - which suggests that neither of these two controversial theorists is fully correct, but neither are incorrect either, and Mill's got the hydrino part right and Puthoff got the ZPE-electron-orbital part correct, and that the two explanations (as disparate and anti-mainstream as they may sound at first) are a match made in ... well, if not in heaven, then at least in the Valis supercomputer . It is two bad that these two modern day geniuses, Mills and Puthoff, absolutely detest each other's work, theory and logic - as the best answer to solving the riddle, may lie in an amalgamation of the two theories (with a little help from their friends). I take it from your past posts, Robin, that you also lean heavily against Puthoff and ZPE... and in truth, it is difficult to make that necessary leap of combining two controversial layers (of unproven assumptions) in a situation where either one gets its full share of scorn from the mainstream. OTOH, the contrarian might say that in this case, the more scorn the better, as the mainstream has totally ignored two half-truths, despite the evidence... and (very rarely) it is only in combining half-truths that leads us down the true path (not to get too Taoistic). It seems to me that to make the earthbound OU process viable, wherein the hydrino is potentially a "player" (and given that there is such a primordial population of solar-derived hydrinos) we need to be dealing with only those hydrinos near the maximum enthalpy, maximum inertness, and maximum compatibility with the "host". In the case of heavy-Argon - as a host - this must mean that the IP of the hydrinohydride matches the IP of a k-shell electron which it is to replace. When in the comet, where there is little Argon, this hydrino species may be in a transitory "fit" where it is not in resonance, whereas when it reaches the oceans of earth, and encounters the potassium molecule, it finds such a resonance and "home". The result: "Special-K" an ersatz heavy-Argon, of apparent molecular weight of just over 40 (two extra electrons in total but the outer shell still has the normal 8). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 07:37:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LEaktl023020; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:36:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LEaiM9022994; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:36:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 07:36:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c67ce3$fa503a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Which Mass? Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 07:36:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Appropraite for a Sunday-choice ... when in in Rome or in the Mall, if the movie-house in the Mall is your epistemological choice for "breaking the code" ... A new essay by Ken Shoulders entitled "Which Mass?" can be downloaded from: www.svn.net/krscfs/ The key point is almost bibilical, and as heretical as DVC: "This implies something so fundamental as charge and mass being identically the same with the stated difference being only a convenient definition conjured up by previous physicists and not total reality." Which Mass? by Ken Shoulders ©2006 When confronted daily with the ability of an EVO to reduce both expressed charge and mass and also faced with the incessant chant or chorus of, E = mc2, one must ask the question of which mass should we be concerned with as it slides over a range of at least several billion. The answer implied is that we must use one and only one single particle to accurately apply the law. Still, considering the incredible profusion of the effect of charge clustering, we should know how to cover the questions this effect raises, as the energy laws are supposedly too fundamental to lightly toss them about. The intended outcome of such a quest is to devise new ways for deriving useful energy from the mass variation effect associated with EVO action. Although I have investigated several such means, I strongly believe I have found neither all nor the best of them. An allied mystery with the mass reduction effect is how the charge tracks the mass reduction so accurately over such an enormous range. At this point, this tracking is measured as having a range of at least a billion to one. This implies something so fundamental as charge and mass being identically the same with the stated difference being only a convenient definition conjured up by previous physicists and not total reality. We are at the gateway of answering these fundamental questions but I suspect any new answers will be drowned out by the orthodoxy of the Church of Past Science. A consensus is not really needed here, as mass will do what mass does, but it would be nice to at least have a new agreement between vanguard science workers. Which mass should we use as we move forward? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 07:51:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LEoujI030645; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:50:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LEos8k030620; Sun, 21 May 2006 07:50:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 07:50:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SF2JRqnzqe8rEeTcsVrXdUS1DpKHMAk4q0nG4jGBbT8vxAQ2u4AkamTO+anCqMJK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065021145042547@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 08:50:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b512e204a528f30c19aca24535f2c385350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.101 Resent-Message-ID: <0kUc-.A.YeH.N5HcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cheer up, Robin. ElectrOpium to the rescue. :-) (*e-) mass = 2* 9.1e-31 kg First orbit (v = c/137) R = 0.5 * 5.29e-11 1st = -27.2 eV 2nd = - 109 eV 3rd = -245 eV 4th = -436 eV 5th = -681 eV 6th = -981 eV 7th = -1335 eV 8th = -1744 eV 9th = - 2207 eV 10th = - 2725 eV naturally 100th = - 272,575 eV super-naturally or poppycock? Fred Robin wrote: > > Hi, > > Oops! - H[n=1/24]hydride is an even better "alkali metal" than the > real alkali metals, so it isn't just going to sit quietly in a > water molecule, it's going to reduce the hydrogen, and very > quickly at that! > > Consequently, this whole scenario doesn't work. To compound the > error, the energies I calculated were total shrinkage energies, > not just for the next step. They should have been 666 eV for Ar+ > and 1360 eV for O++. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 08:15:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LFFhGx011972; Sun, 21 May 2006 08:15:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LFFgS8011965; Sun, 21 May 2006 08:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 08:15:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BtDlN/yu4ZMXdTFaL4okfxJbhdaux46zmT2V+KQrgti8Y3Zqo0rYG5wiFPw6C6ke; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065021151529545@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:15:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94009bd2b6966809e71ed9e437630c646ac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.23 Resent-Message-ID: <8ffhh.A.26C.eQIcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ElectrOpium to the rescue. :-) Or as they would say down Texas way: ElectRopium to the rescue. Right Richard? 137th = 1737^2 * 27.2 = - 0.511 MeV too. > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 5/21/2006 8:51:45 AM > Subject: RE: Hydrino - orgone again :( > > Cheer up, Robin. > ElectrOpium to the rescue. :-) > > (*e-) mass = 2* 9.1e-31 kg > First orbit (v = c/137) R = 0.5 * 5.29e-11 > 1st = -27.2 eV > 2nd = - 109 eV > 3rd = -245 eV > 4th = -436 eV > 5th = -681 eV > 6th = -981 eV > 7th = -1335 eV > 8th = -1744 eV > 9th = - 2207 eV > 10th = - 2725 eV naturally > 100th = - 272,575 eV super-naturally or poppycock? > > Fred > > Robin wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Oops! - H[n=1/24]hydride is an even better "alkali metal" than the > > real alkali metals, so it isn't just going to sit quietly in a > > water molecule, it's going to reduce the hydrogen, and very > > quickly at that! > > > > Consequently, this whole scenario doesn't work. To compound the > > error, the energies I calculated were total shrinkage energies, > > not just for the next step. They should have been 666 eV for Ar+ > > and 1360 eV for O++. > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 09:05:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LG506g005561; Sun, 21 May 2006 09:05:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LG4wIF005547; Sun, 21 May 2006 09:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X7fz0VqbbNKsrcAYeN0vsVPKgES7bTxu3nXQ8liukwrAxvCi0Q4zPcUTIPA6UjC3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006502116442728@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:04:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400c3976ad5b2ed08a89bc678b0e0f0664350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.36 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Relativistic Effects: Relativistic Gamma = E(kin)/Eo + 1 = 1/[1- (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 At 137th, 137^2 * 27.2 = .511 MeV Gamma = [.511E6/1.0E6] + 1 = 1.5 At 100th (-272,575 eV) Gamma = [272,575/1.0E6] + 1 = 1.2725 At 24th "Fractional Orbit" Gamma = [69,696/1.0E6] + 1 = 1.0697 About Maximum? > > > > (*e-) mass = 2* 9.1e-31 kg > > First orbit (v = c/137) R = 0.5 * 5.29e-11 > > 1st = -27.2 eV > > 2nd = - 109 eV > > 3rd = -245 eV > > 4th = -436 eV > > 5th = -681 eV > > 6th = -981 eV > > 7th = -1335 eV > > 8th = -1744 eV > > 9th = - 2207 eV > > 10th = - 2725 eV naturally > > 100th = - 272,575 eV super-naturally or poppycock? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 09:24:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LGOZvK015836; Sun, 21 May 2006 09:24:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LGOZIK015824; Sun, 21 May 2006 09:24:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:24:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060521162431547.859CF5800092@mwinf3112.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060521162432.00b60694@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 17:24:32 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Which Mass? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:36 am 21/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: > Appropriate for a Sunday-choice ... when in Rome or in the > Mall, if the movie-house in the Mall is your epistemological > choice for "breaking the code" ... > > A new essay by Ken Shoulders entitled "Which Mass?" can be > downloaded from: www.svn.net/krscfs/ > > > The key point is almost biblical, and as heretical as DVC: But surprising topical, Jones, in view the controversy which rages over the Tridentine Mass and the nervous ordo. 8-) I haven't yet read Ken's essay so I can offer my completely uncontaminated opinion. Since both charge and mass (inertia) have to be manifestation of stuff in motion, how's about charge being algebraic motion and mass being arithmetic motion. The size of the proton arises from the fact that the positive charge and negative charges don't quite balance cos one is above space ambient motion and one is below. I think Aspden sees the proton as being made up of electrons and positrons ([c + delta]^2 - [c]^2) <> ([c]^2 -[c - delta]^2) Add the positive and negative charges together and eventually n.([c + delta]^2 - [c]^2) = (n + 1).([c]^2 -[c - delta]^2) and they do balance which accounts for the stability of the proton. Add one more to get the neutron and we are slightly out of balance again which accounts for the instability of the neutron. Mind you, I've always though the neutron scored very well in the instability stakes. An average of 14 minutes or so seem bloody miraculous for an unstable fundamental particle. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 10:54:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LHsgLJ019953; Sun, 21 May 2006 10:54:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LHsdir019929; Sun, 21 May 2006 10:54:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:54:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060521104956.02aa5940@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 10:56:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Proper Scientific Refutations In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you so much Walter for your in-depth and thoughtful reply. It may take me some time to process what you've written. >If you are of the opinion that the published work itself is always an >adequate guide as to the details of an experiment, may I direct your >attention to a wonderful little book Thanks for your suggestion about this book. When I spoke with Mike Melich a few years ago, I was fascinated by his determination to travel the U.S. and the U.K. to interview folks who were, or had attempted CF. He said, "You can't learn anything meaningful from reading a paper." Basically, he echoed what you said. And your example of the video of F&P is a good point. McKubre also has a similar experience with Case. They couldn't get their replication of his cell to work until they stood next to him and literally observed what he did and how he did it. After that, it was cake. Fascinating insights into -real- science and the real aspects of replication. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 11:39:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LIcojv005892; Sun, 21 May 2006 11:38:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LIcn0h005850; Sun, 21 May 2006 11:38:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 11:38:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060521183846788.C08AF1C00084@mwinf3206.me.freeserve.com Reply-To: From: "Patrick Vessey" To: Subject: New Joe Cell Website Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 19:41:09 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: <-5u9mD.A.SbB.5OLcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: More for the Joe Cell melting pot: ---snip--- From: "Hamish Robertson" hamishcrobertson@yahoo.com.au Date: Sat May 20, 2006 8:55pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Electrostatics, the Joe Cell and unpowered Hydrogen generation For those that are interested in the role of electrostatics and the joe cell, please checkout my website http://www.thejoecell.com I have outlined my basic theory there. There is also a large amount of support material contained in the reference section. regards, Hamish ---ends--- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 19/05/2006 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 12:20:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LJKWP5024523; Sun, 21 May 2006 12:20:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LJKUos024506; Sun, 21 May 2006 12:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 12:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060521192023790.C0E3C1C00082@mwinf3203.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060521192024.00b9f858@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 20:20:24 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: New Joe Cell Website Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:41 pm 21/05/2006 +0100, Patrick wrote: > >More for the Joe Cell melting pot: > >---snip--- > From: "Hamish Robertson" hamishcrobertson@yahoo.com.au > Date: Sat May 20, 2006 8:55pm(PDT) >Subject: Re: Electrostatics, the Joe Cell and unpowered Hydrogen generation > >For those that are interested in the role of electrostatics and the joe >cell, please checkout my website http://www.thejoecell.com > >I have outlined my basic theory there. There is also a large amount of >support material contained in the reference section. > >regards, > >Hamish >---ends--- Thanks for that, Patrick. I found it a very interesting paper with many useful references. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 15:27:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4LMRAW2000733; Sun, 21 May 2006 15:27:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4LMR8Rt000719; Sun, 21 May 2006 15:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 15:27:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000701c67d25$a83c64b0$f0027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <003201c67ce3$fa503a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: Which Mass? Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 17:26:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Jones, Mass can only be measured differentially, meaning it must be measured against a mass. Since we do not know how to identiify the second mass we remain in guess mode. Consider the exact meter length. There are several of these " exact" samples each considered to be a perfect meter length. Well.. errr.. until the bunch are measured (differential) against each other .. and.. well.. they differ... so which one perfect? We don't need to know. We only need to know the difference which is what Shoulders said to start with Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 9:36 AM Subject: Which Mass? > Appropraite for a Sunday-choice ... when in in Rome or in the Mall, if > the movie-house in the Mall is your epistemological choice for "breaking > the code" ... > > A new essay by Ken Shoulders entitled "Which Mass?" can be downloaded > from: www.svn.net/krscfs/ > > > The key point is almost bibilical, and as heretical as DVC: > > "This implies something so fundamental as charge and mass being > identically the same with the stated difference being only a convenient > definition conjured up by previous physicists and not total reality." > > > > > Which Mass? > > by Ken Shoulders ©2006 > > When confronted daily with the ability of an EVO to reduce both expressed > charge and mass and also faced with the incessant chant or chorus of, E = > mc2, one must ask the question of which mass should we be concerned with > as it slides over a range of at least several billion. > > The answer implied is that we must use one and only one single particle to > accurately apply the law. Still, considering the incredible profusion of > the effect of charge clustering, we should know how to cover the > questions this effect raises, as the energy laws are supposedly too > fundamental to lightly toss them about. > > The intended outcome of such a quest is to devise new ways for deriving > useful energy from the mass variation effect associated with EVO action. > Although I have investigated several such means, I strongly believe I > have found neither all nor the best of them. > > An allied mystery with the mass reduction effect is how the charge tracks > the mass reduction so accurately over such an enormous range. At this > point, this tracking is measured as having a range of at least a billion > to one. This implies something so fundamental as charge and mass being > identically the same with the stated difference being only a convenient > definition conjured up by previous physicists and not total reality. > > We are at the gateway of answering these fundamental questions but I > suspect any new answers will be drowned out by the orthodoxy of the > Church of Past Science. A consensus is not really needed here, as mass > will do what mass does, but it would be nice to at least have a new > agreement between vanguard science workers. > > Which mass should we use as we move forward? > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 20:49:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M3nYcA018682; Sun, 21 May 2006 20:49:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M3nWAb018665; Sun, 21 May 2006 20:49:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 20:49:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: New Joe Cell Website Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:49:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 03:49:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4M3nMcq018618 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Patrick Vessey's message of Sun, 21 May 2006 19:41:09 +0100: Hi, [snip] > >More for the Joe Cell melting pot: > >---snip--- > From: "Hamish Robertson" hamishcrobertson@yahoo.com.au > Date: Sat May 20, 2006 8:55pm(PDT) >Subject: Re: Electrostatics, the Joe Cell and unpowered Hydrogen generation > [snip] A Google search on Quantum Electrodynamic Cavitation yielded exactly 1 hit. You can guess where it was. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:12:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M4CHbK027480; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:12:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M4CET1027428; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:12:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:12:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ae01c67d55$e045c9c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: New Joe Cell Website Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:11:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <7bG6vC.A.UsG.boTcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin > A Google search on Quantum Electrodynamic Cavitation yielded > exactly 1 hit. You can guess where it was. He mis-worded it a little (among the many problems with the details on the site - which is severely lacking in data and proper attribution). The correct name is "cavity quantum electrodynamics" or CQED. It is one and the same as the newer name: sonoluminescence. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:22:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M46i1O025164; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:06:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M46fIX025128; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:06:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:06:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Which Mass? Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:06:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003201c67ce3$fa503a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003201c67ce3$fa503a20$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 04:06:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4M46U8U025035 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 21 May 2006 07:36:41 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Which Mass? > > by Ken Shoulders ©2006 > >When confronted daily with the ability of an EVO to reduce both >expressed charge and mass and also faced with the incessant chant >or chorus of, E = mc2, one must ask the question of which mass >should we be concerned with as it slides over a range of at least >several billion. [snip] Sounds as though Ken has discovered that by bundling electrons together, one destroys both charge and inertia, though not intrinsic energy. Perhaps all that is really happening is that the outer shell of electrons is shielding those on the inside from the ZPE? Pions anyone? :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:35:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M4YpD6003578; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:34:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M4YoqQ003562; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:34:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:34:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:34:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 04:34:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4M4YlPS003540 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 20 May 2006 17:28:08 +1000: Hi, [snip] >The problem that needs to be dealt with is not cheep generation of >energy. We have that in spades, Not quite true. Wind is still slightly more expensive than coal or gas, Solar thermal more expensive than wind. Photovoltaic considerably more expensive. Solar thermal is more expensive primarily because people insist on using heavy metal structures to support the mirrors. The system I described would only use rigid light plastic supports for the lenses, and these could be turned out in massive quantities at very low cost. >wave power could power the planet twice >over, wind could power half the world. Roof top solar could power the >average city if solar cells replaced tiles on the sunward side of the roof. Yes, but expensively. >We don't have a shortage of energy technologies we have a delivery >problem. We have both. Believe you me, if Solar were cheaper than coal or gas, there would no holding the utilities back. :) [snip] > The great irony is that we have had a solution to both large scale >shipping and storage of energy since the 1800's its *compressed air*. >Modern studies have not been made but a compressed air line across >Australia would be possible. Compressors are over 90% efficient. Does this imply isothermal expansion such that heat lost to the environment during compression is reabsorbed during expansion? >2 meter >diameter steel lined concrete Pipes can be made largely leak free. >Workable pressures would be 50 atmospheres. A gale in a pile. Pipelines >under the sea are not impossible particularly if your crossing shallow >seas [ The Arafura and Banda sea are not that deep. The sea bed from >Bali to Malaysia is only a few tens of meters deep and in places a path >only 50 meters deep can be mapped.] You must ballast the pipe properly. > Yes pneumatic systems have frictional losses but at a few percent >per hundred kilometres its better than the losses in high voltage and >superconductors. Its also a storage system. The air in the line goes in >by day and may be drawn out at night with only a small drop in pressure. ...agreed, the more so the longer the pipe. >Large volumes of air can be diverted into former gas baring strata and >just as the gas was retained in the past at several atmospheres the air >will be today. One power storage plant using compressed air pushed down >an old gas well already exists and is commercial. > For some strange reason the world has chosen to ignore the >relatively simple physics of pneumatic solutions in favour of other more >exotic and expensive system that may promise solutions on some distant >day. Underground storage solutions are not available everywhere. A more generally applicable solution might be chemical storage. Even hydrocarbon manufacture from airborne CO2 is not out of the question, if a sufficiently cheap, but intermittent, source of power is available. In fact it might be possible to combine it with your compressed air system. Once compressed, the air could be passed through Ca(OH)2 before entering the pipe. This would scrub any CO2 from the air producing CaCO3, which can then be heated (solar thermal) to remove the CO2 in pure form and pass it to the chemical plant where it is converted to more useful chemicals using once again power from the Solar plant. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:36:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M4K9rJ030958; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:22:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M49KYL026325; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:09:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:09:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:09:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220065021145042547@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220065021145042547@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 04:09:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4M49Cu3026297 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 21 May 2006 08:50:42 -0600: Hi Fred, >Cheer up, Robin. >ElectrOpium to the rescue. :-) I thought that in the real world, they had already determined that ElectrOpium only had a lifetime of nanoseconds? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 21:51:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M4pHXC012755; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:51:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M4pFi8012727; Sun, 21 May 2006 21:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 21:51:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino - orgone - or Special-K? Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:51:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <657072ludvcbjdee8ufe3un7jt9qi6qljc@4ax.com> <002b01c67ce2$aba49160$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002b01c67ce2$aba49160$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.73] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 04:51:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4M4p82P012615 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 21 May 2006 07:27:19 -0700: Hi, [snip] >I take it from your past posts, Robin, that you also lean heavily >against Puthoff and ZPE... No, I think that is a too negative representation. I'm looking for something that is both self consistent, and consistent with observed phenomena. I can't yet say that I have found it in anyone's theory (including my own). :( One of my main complaints about Hal's theory is, as I said to him years ago, that if the Universe is full of energetic photons up to 1E43 Hz, then why aren't at least half of all atoms constantly ionized? (Most of the energy resides in the high end photons, so the average is way higher than the energy required to ionize an atom). It's as though the "photons" don't act like normal photons. Which is what led me to ask him if they could be standing (stationary if you prefer) waves ( a la Beardon). He replied at the time that the equations would all be the same if they were. (Beardon talks about pairs of waves going in opposite directions, which IMO is the same thing as stationary waves). BTW Ross Tessien also seems to be into stationary waves (or was at one time anyway). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 21 23:16:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M6G0VI008922; Sun, 21 May 2006 23:16:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M6Fp1q008857; Sun, 21 May 2006 23:15:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 23:15:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZKlTc+99nRj/rYq+OMPKjVfxWtZc9F+lIo1KuWDzexa0+uHtM+R1lup4lSEqEkHH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512261530467@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino - orgone again :( Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:15:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94089d69387942714895ef2a8d944a084a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.202 Resent-Message-ID: <_hytF.A.JKC.UcVcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote. > > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 21 May 2006 > 08:50:42 -0600: > Hi Fred, > >Cheer up, Robin. > >ElectrOpium to the rescue. :-) > > I thought that in the real world, they had already determined that > ElectrOpium only had a lifetime of nanoseconds? > "They" have only detected the radiation from those that annihilate or the radiation could be from the "settling in" binding energy of the (*e-) mass 2 to 2.7 electron mass particle which is a bit tricky to detect. Both Allen Mills of UCR and the researchers at Max Planck institute (and others) have been informed of this possibility. No adverse responses there.Hence the jury is still out until Ps- experiments are refined for (*e-) detection. Fred. Snip [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 00:26:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M7QhDZ009164; Mon, 22 May 2006 00:26:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M7QcL2009125; Mon, 22 May 2006 00:26:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 00:26:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OSEiW0Echt5Wano8WnAO8CbBWuDELE77s3cgxSpdW+ZGwOOHK1insdrx6+qpzGiO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512272624185@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 01:26:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402709beffc8357a7e958006e0305bdda9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.58 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted earlier. > > With our cell adding a very small amount of baking > soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up > to 21 milliamperes. > Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that > pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. > At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell _____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia ______________________________ 4.25 inch dia _________________________ 3.25 inch dia ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Posted earlier.
>
> With our cell adding a very small amount of baking
> soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up
> to 21 milliamperes.
> Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that
> pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled.
>
At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small
gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12
volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series).
More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which
increased the current to 500 milliamperes.  (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell)
The balloon inflated post haste.  :-)
Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms
Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm
 
This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell"
(with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2)
Total Resistance ~ 10,000  ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. 
Series Capacitance ~2.8 to  ~5.6 nanofarads/cell
 
_____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode.
     ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia
     ______________________________   4.25 inch dia
         _________________________ 3.25 inch dia
               ___________________ 2.0 inch dia  Cathode
        
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 01:28:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M8Ru74010656; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:27:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M8RtAp010645; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:27:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 01:27:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,155,1146412800"; d="scan'208"; a="789732690:sNHT71265340" Message-ID: <447174CA.9080904@iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:22:34 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transubstantiation References: <2.2.32.20060520063510.00b9bcb0@pop.freeserve.net> <446FFF3D.20106@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <446FFF3D.20106@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Grimer wrote: > >> At 09:03 pm 19/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>> Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) >>> >>> >>> >>>> [Original Message] >>>> From: What's New >>>> 1. DA VINCI CODE: CARDINALS COMPLAIN THAT THE NOVEL IS FICTION. >>>> Aren't they always? Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical >>>> Council for Culture, expressed shock this week at the Da Vinci >>>> Code promotion: "It had nothing to do with the truth." Like >>>> "transubstantiation" is the truth? ... >>>> >>> >> >> That's right Porkie. Transubstantiation is the Truth. 8-) >> >> > Excellent post Frank! I've been watching Fr. John Corappi on EWTN, I > just ignore my differences with Catholicism and focus on what we agree > on, the inerrorancy of the Bible. Porkie, eh, I thought Parksie was > humorous, but you've done me one better. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > The best on da Vinci is this link; its a lark. http://www.ericmetaxas.com/audio/PlayAudio.html Screwtape is a very funny Demon. Screwtape was created by C S Lewis of Nania fame but this is a modern reworking by Eric on Da Vinci. http://www.ericmetaxas.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 01:28:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M8Sl6l011346; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:28:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M8Sjo3011328; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:28:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 01:28:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FSHlvnQBOVrsxHtOKJdYetVvcfKqlH0ebKrHAx/4ygwDC11MakvU83AS3etJKbtH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22006512282826722@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:28:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e58c801c696ddef7c4d3ce946b3261f8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since The US Navy agrees with me...... :-) 6,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition "Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion. Although filters or converters are used on vehicles, and scrubbers are commonly installed on board vessels, safety hazards remain problematic with these fuels. Efficiencies have increased with conventional fuels, however, with the large number of carriers in use today, even minimal amounts of an emitted toxicant becomes cumulatively handful. In addition to environmental contamination, fossil fuels such as gasoline present other problems. Fuels need to be transported to distribution centers. Several types of fossil fuels are used, which add to the logistical complexity. There is also a global limitation of the fossil fuels available which may be refined into a power source." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Since The US Navy agrees with me......  :-)
 
"Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion. Although filters or converters are used on vehicles, and scrubbers are commonly installed on board vessels, safety hazards remain problematic with these fuels. Efficiencies have increased with conventional fuels, however, with the large number of carriers in use today, even minimal amounts of an emitted toxicant becomes cumulatively handful. In addition to environmental contamination, fossil fuels such as gasoline present other problems. Fuels need to be transported to distribution centers. Several types of fossil fuels are used, which add to the logistical complexity. There is also a global limitation of the fossil fuels available which may be refined into a power source."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif Content-Id: <410-220065122828103381@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 01:39:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M8cmd1016087; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:38:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M8clDa016063; Mon, 22 May 2006 01:38:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 01:38:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OrtdfHKKaN2nwzQjYJ9odxEzTMve4TvJm2FL5998ZH2fs5okfwk6rGZXsYxNMVq5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512283840625@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Orgone-Argon Lightbulb Glow Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:38:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94083a1b01c6e9aa2791091cadda8c2de75350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII That new 40 watt light bulb that I tested some time back keeps rejuvenating itself and really glows orange to white in less than ten seconds on the first 800 watt microwave hit then white to blue blue-green in less than 4 seconds on the 2nd hit.. Something of interest diffusing into it, Robin? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
That new 40 watt light bulb that I tested some time back
keeps rejuvenating itself and really glows orange to white
in less than ten seconds on the first 800 watt microwave hit
then white to blue blue-green in less than 4 seconds on the 2nd hit..
Something of interest diffusing into it, Robin?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 02:35:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M9Yfd8007831; Mon, 22 May 2006 02:34:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M9YcPS007797; Mon, 22 May 2006 02:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:34:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060522093435579.8D79A1C00095@mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060522093435.00b9e50c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:34:35 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Transubstantiation Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:22 pm 22/05/2006 +1000, you wrote: >thomas malloy wrote: > >> Grimer wrote: >> >>> At 09:03 pm 19/05/2006 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> [Original Message] >>>>> From: What's New >>>>> 1. DA VINCI CODE: CARDINALS COMPLAIN THAT THE NOVEL IS FICTION. >>>>> Aren't they always? Cardinal Poupard, head of the Pontifical >>>>> Council for Culture, expressed shock this week at the Da Vinci >>>>> Code promotion: "It had nothing to do with the truth." Like >>>>> "transubstantiation" is the truth? ... >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> That's right Porkie. Transubstantiation is the Truth. 8-) >>> >>> >> Excellent post Frank! I've been watching Fr. John Corappi on EWTN, I >> just ignore my differences with Catholicism and focus on what we agree >> on, the inerrancy of the Bible. Porkie, eh, I thought Parksie was >> humorous, but you've done me one better.inerrancy > The best on da Vinci is this link; its a lark. > http://www.ericmetaxas.com/audio/PlayAudio.html > Screwtape is a very funny Demon. Screwtape was > created by C S Lewis of > Nania fame but this is a modern reworking by > Eric on Da Vinci. >http://www.ericmetaxas.com/ Very telling. 8-) Or as Chesterton's inimitable Father Brown put it, ======================================= It's the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense. ["The Oracle of the Dog"] You hard-shelled materialists were all balanced on the very edge of belief - of belief in almost anything. ["The Miracle of Moon Crescent"] ======================================= Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 02:45:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4M9itJ2014252; Mon, 22 May 2006 02:44:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4M9irii014226; Mon, 22 May 2006 02:44:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:44:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CbeeqT2gTlv7do46L0zXT+QTKq9GGh1ucl8z3TlboMat+NWvg5Innx/1m3zXJX+N; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-22006512294440353@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 03:44:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401673e4c087581963eecff0e048012c07350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This looks fairly easy to do on a small scale, using wind or photovoltaic power and a pressure swing absorption O2 concentrator. BTW, Jones, N2O has the same molecular weight and number of electrons as CO2 and close to the same storage transport pressures. Lots of it used around hospitals. OTOH, there was an incident where it was fed into the contractor-crossed O2 plumbing of a new hospital a few years ago. It really wasn't a laughing matter. Fred du Pont 1992: 5,112,702Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 2:29:23 AM Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE Since The US Navy agrees with me...... :-) 6,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition "Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion. Although filters or converters are used on vehicles, and scrubbers are commonly installed on board vessels, safety hazards remain problematic with these fuels. Efficiencies have increased with conventional fuels, however, with the large number of carriers in use today, even minimal amounts of an emitted toxicant becomes cumulatively handful. In addition to environmental contamination, fossil fuels such as gasoline present other problems. Fuels need to be transported to distribution centers. Several types of fossil fuels are used, which add to the logistical complexity. There is also a ! global limitation of the fossil fuels available which may be refined into a power source." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This looks fairly easy to do on a small scale, using wind or photovoltaic power
and a pressure swing absorption O2 concentrator.
 
BTW, Jones, N2O has the same molecular weight and number of electrons as CO2
and close to the same storage transport pressures. Lots of it used around hospitals.
OTOH, there was an incident where it was fed into the contractor-crossed O2 plumbing
of a new hospital a few years ago. It really wasn't  a laughing matter.
 
Fred
 
du Pont 1992:
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/22/2006 2:29:23 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE

Since The US Navy agrees with me......  :-)
 
"Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion. Although filters or converters are used on vehicles, and scrubbers are commonly installed on board vessels, safety hazards remain problematic with these fuels. Efficiencies have increased with conventional fuels, however, with the large number of carriers in use today, even minimal amounts of an emitted toxicant becomes cumulatively handful. In addition to environmental contamination, fossil fuels such as gasoline present other problems. Fuels need to be transported to distribution centers. Several types of fossil fuels are used, which add to the logistical complexity. There is also a ! global limitation of the fossil fuels available which may be refined into a power source."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifFy2tM8kZXC.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifFy2tM8kZXC.gif Content-Id: <410-220065122944255512@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif Content-Id: <184671-220065122944255513@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 03:16:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MAGJ6C027911; Mon, 22 May 2006 03:16:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MAGH2l027885; Mon, 22 May 2006 03:16:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 03:16:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ex64BSA+TXGTpdQlArRsjOQPK8yhTbsKrn3x1qUxzZj9BecZBT0bW1Y1ep/uoW5R; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651221016299@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 04:16:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b5948a5343495d1efd6dc5d9f70b8a32350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.103 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For those not really interested in OFF TOPIC Horse Puckey. > > This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" > (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) > Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. > Series Capacitance > _____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia ____________________________ 4.25 inch dia _________________________ 3.25 inch dia ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html "the capacitance per unit length is defined as" 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 1:27:24 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Posted earlier. > > With our cell adding a very small amount of baking > soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up > to 21 milliamperes. > Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that > pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. > At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell _____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia ______________________________ 4.25 inch dia _________________________ 3.25 inch dia ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
For those not really interested in OFF TOPIC Horse Puckey.
>
> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell"
> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2)
> Total Resistance ~ 10,000  ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. 
> Series Capacitance
>
 
_____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode.
     ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia
         ____________________________ 4.25 inch dia
         _________________________ 3.25 inch dia
               ___________________ 2.0 inch dia  Cathode
 
For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance:
 
 
"the capacitance per unit length is defined as"
 
  2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a]
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/22/2006 1:27:24 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

Posted earlier.
>
> With our cell adding a very small amount of baking
> soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up
> to 21 milliamperes.
> Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that
> pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled.
>
At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small
gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12
volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series).
More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which
increased the current to 500 milliamperes.  (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell)
The balloon inflated post haste.  :-)
Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms
Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm
 
This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell"
(with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2)
Total Resistance ~ 10,000  ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. 
Series Capacitance ~2.8 to  ~5.6 nanofarads/cell
 
_____________________________________ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode.
     ________________________________ 5.25 inch dia
     ______________________________   4.25 inch dia
         _________________________ 3.25 inch dia
               ___________________ 2.0 inch dia  Cathode
        
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 04:21:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MBL57Z022118; Mon, 22 May 2006 04:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MBL1Ia022082; Mon, 22 May 2006 04:21:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 04:21:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GLuG5oj+X0uPmMKpa68pUSeB9Vf7PuZRhj/Mft3H+5ulkFyayC84OOup1lkDVhZb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065122112039748@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 05:20:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cb35b1f49346e4a7f52f55609a8a4709350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This is the backbone of "Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor" Technology. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm "Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was extended to model the separation of "electronic" charges residing at the metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to as the "potential of zero charge"." General: http://www.thejoecell.com/index.html Plans: http://www.thejoecell.com/Plans.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" > (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) > Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. > Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell > Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes: _____________________________________ 6.00 inch dia Anode. ________________________________ 5.00inch dia ___________________________ 4.00 inch dia _______________________3.00inch dia ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html "the capacitance per unit length is defined as" C/L = 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] Posted earlier. > > With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking > soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up > to 21 milliamperes. > Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that > pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. > At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75 x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm > > This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" > (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) > Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. > Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This is the backbone of "Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor" Technology.
 
 
"Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was extended to model the separation of "electronic" charges residing at the metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to as the "potential of zero charge"."
 
General:
 
Plans:
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
>
> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell"
> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2)
> Total Resistance ~ 10,000  ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. 
> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to  ~5.6 nanofarads/cell
>
Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes:
_____________________________________ 6.00 inch dia Anode.
     ________________________________ 5.00inch dia
         ___________________________ 4.00 inch dia
            _______________________3.00inch dia
               ___________________ 2.0 inch dia  Cathode
 
For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance:
 
 
"the capacitance per unit length is defined as"
 
  C/L =   2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] 
Posted earlier.
>
> With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking
> soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up
> to 21 milliamperes.
> Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that
> pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled.
>
At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small
gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75  x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm)
with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series).
More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which
increased the current to 500 milliamperes.  (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell)
The balloon inflated post haste.  :-)
Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms
Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm 
>
> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell"
> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2)
> Total Resistance ~ 10,000  ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. 
> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to  ~5.6 nanofarads/cell     
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 04:32:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MBWeJ5029470; Mon, 22 May 2006 04:32:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MBWW1T029372; Mon, 22 May 2006 04:32:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 04:32:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20b201c67d93$66530860$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220065122112039748@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:32:25 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re the "potential of zero charge", I imagine an equal and opposite potential must exist at the other electrode to null the inter-electrode voltage, otherwise I don't see how the charge of the capacitor Q=C*V could be zero. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > This is the backbone of "Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor" Technology. > > http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm > > "Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic > charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. > For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was > extended to model the separation of "electronic" charges residing at the > metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge > densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte > solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive > polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential > difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the > electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to > as the "potential of zero charge"." > > General: > http://www.thejoecell.com/index.html > > Plans: > > http://www.thejoecell.com/Plans.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > To: vortex-l > Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc >> >> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" >> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) >> Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. >> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell >> > Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes: > _____________________________________ 6.00 inch dia Anode. > ________________________________ 5.00inch dia > ___________________________ 4.00 inch dia > _______________________3.00inch dia > ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode > > For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html > > "the capacitance per unit length is defined as" > > C/L = 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] > Posted earlier. >> >> With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking >> soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up >> to 21 milliamperes. >> Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that >> pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. >> > At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small > gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75 x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 > spaced 1.0 cm) > with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). > More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which > increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) > The balloon inflated post haste. :-) > Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms > Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm >> >> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" >> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) >> Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. >> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 05:08:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MC7xeH014874; Mon, 22 May 2006 05:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MC7wGQ014843; Mon, 22 May 2006 05:07:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 05:07:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lUp0jsdV/8r2lEYQmfMeyvkb+CgFtUKkn2ihUPovQdD8R1fnMwvr50uUuumC3P64; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512212743789@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 06:07:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e7a218a1689540ed3f39365d6d3e04f7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.139 Resent-Message-ID: <_T2YQD.A.3nD.dmacEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Re the "potential of zero charge", I imagine an equal and opposite potential > must exist at the other electrode to null the inter-electrode voltage, > otherwise I don't see how the charge of the capacitor Q=C*V could be zero. > If there is a "Bias Voltage" on the plates on a floated-plate cell or the concentric cylinders of the Joe Cell the OH- on one side can lose it's electron and come off as a gas, almost at the same time the H+ or H3O+ gets an electron from the other side of the same floated-plate and comes off as H gas too. Cathode - +- +- +- + Anode | | | | | The Joe Cell has about a half square meter of wetted electrode area. Giving off "Free O, O2, OH, and H and H2 gas? Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > > > This is the backbone of "Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor" Technology. > > > > http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm > > > > "Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic > > charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. > > For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was > > extended to model the separation of "electronic" charges residing at the > > metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge > > densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte > > solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive > > polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential > > difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the > > electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to > > as the "potential of zero charge"." > > > > General: > > http://www.thejoecell.com/index.html > > > > Plans: > > > > http://www.thejoecell.com/Plans.html > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Frederick Sparber > > To: vortex-l > > Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM > > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > >> > >> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" > >> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) > >> Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. > >> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell > >> > > Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes: > > _____________________________________ 6.00 inch dia Anode. > > ________________________________ 5.00inch dia > > ___________________________ 4.00 inch dia > > _______________________3.00inch dia > > ___________________ 2.0 inch dia Cathode > > > > For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: > > > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html > > > > "the capacitance per unit length is defined as" > > > > C/L = 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] > > Posted earlier. > >> > >> With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking > >> soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up > >> to 21 milliamperes. > >> Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that > >> pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. > >> > > At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small > > gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75 x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 > > spaced 1.0 cm) > > with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). > > More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which > > increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) > > The balloon inflated post haste. :-) > > Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms > > Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm > >> > >> This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" > >> (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) > >> Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. > >> Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 07:04:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ME4ebY015931; Mon, 22 May 2006 07:04:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ME4cFf015912; Mon, 22 May 2006 07:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 07:04:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060522094448.03ce74a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:55:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? In-Reply-To: References: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Not quite true. Wind is still slightly more expensive than coal or >gas, Solar thermal more expensive than wind. Only when you ignore the social cost of pollution and mining. If U.S. electric power companies were forced to pay the normal compensation that any other company would pay for killing 20,000 people per year and destroying property, the cost of coal would be far higher than wind or solar thermal. Also, LUZ was forced to build solar thermal plants on a small scale, reducing efficiency and driving up cost. Regulators teamed up with fossil fuel companies to force LUZ into a corner and put them out of business. If regulators had allowed 100+ MW scale plants instead of holding them back at ~10 MW per project, LUZ would still be in business and they would be producing the cheapest electricity on earth in Southern California. >Photovoltaic considerably more expensive. At least an order of magnitude more expensive, and the cost of other methods is dropping faster than PV. >We have both. Believe you me, if Solar were cheaper than coal or >gas, there would no holding the utilities back. :) I disagree. History shows that the utility companies were happy to join regulators and coal companies to drive LUZ out of business. If the cost of electricity falls to a penny or less per KWH, the utility companies will make a lot less money. Efficiency and progress is not their best interest. If cold fusion emerges, you can darn sure they will fight it tooth and nail, until the day it bankrupts them. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 08:51:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MFonxT002507; Mon, 22 May 2006 08:50:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MFolkt002480; Mon, 22 May 2006 08:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 08:50:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nH/HHLdXJ4gdE96P2MjVAr7E6WKFja3P6JlTbMdWVuix4CUIrLsjj9D7OZyCDhnk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065122155041797@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Klein's Water Energy Fox News Clip Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:50:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406c54d58fe0ec6ced91b158c7f6fad391350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A friend sent me a video clip of a Fox News TV broadcast of Klein's HHO demo. He has" Automakers, Congress and the Military" on alert. Doing a thing on the Hummer too. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A friend sent me a video clip of a Fox News TV broadcast
of Klein's HHO demo. He has" Automakers, Congress and
the Military" on alert. Doing a thing on the Hummer too.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 08:54:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MFsg2f006306; Mon, 22 May 2006 08:54:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MFsd5E006263; Mon, 22 May 2006 08:54:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 08:54:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007401c67db7$a8fa4920$6517563f@y4w5a4> From: "lgarrett" To: References: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:51:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: air hybrid engine http://www.scuderigroup.com other off topic links steam engine http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/mbsteam.htm fuel cell batteries http://www.ultracellpower.com biodiesel hydrogen http://www.tekkie.com > The great irony is that we have had a solution to both large scale > >shipping and storage of energy since the 1800's its *compressed air*. > >Modern studies have not been made but a compressed air line across > >Australia would be possible. Compressors are over 90% efficient. > > Does this imply isothermal expansion such that heat lost to the > environment during compression is reabsorbed during expansion? > > >2 meter > >diameter steel lined concrete Pipes can be made largely leak free. > >Workable pressures would be 50 atmospheres. A gale in a pile. Pipelines > >under the sea are not impossible particularly if your crossing shallow > >seas [ The Arafura and Banda sea are not that deep. The sea bed from > >Bali to Malaysia is only a few tens of meters deep and in places a path > >only 50 meters deep can be mapped.] You must ballast the pipe properly. > > Yes pneumatic systems have frictional losses but at a few percent > >per hundred kilometres its better than the losses in high voltage and > >superconductors. Its also a storage system. The air in the line goes in > >by day and may be drawn out at night with only a small drop in pressure. > > ...agreed, the more so the longer the pipe. > > >Large volumes of air can be diverted into former gas baring strata and > >just as the gas was retained in the past at several atmospheres the air > >will be today. One power storage plant using compressed air pushed down > >an old gas well already exists and is commercial. > > For some strange reason the world has chosen to ignore the > >relatively simple physics of pneumatic solutions in favour of other more > >exotic and expensive system that may promise solutions on some distant > >day. > > Underground storage solutions are not available everywhere. > > A more generally applicable solution might be chemical storage. > Even hydrocarbon manufacture from airborne CO2 is not out of the > question, if a sufficiently cheap, but intermittent, source of > power is available. > > In fact it might be possible to combine it with your compressed > air system. Once compressed, the air could be passed through > Ca(OH)2 before entering the pipe. This would scrub any CO2 from > the air producing CaCO3, which can then be heated (solar thermal) > to remove the CO2 in pure form and pass it to the chemical plant > where it is converted to more useful chemicals using once again > power from the Solar plant. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 09:36:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MGZmST030771; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:35:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MGZk1n030736; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:35:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:35:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522093633.029c7df0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:37:12 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_119870968==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_119870968==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3877480.html May 21, 2006, 12:00AM Energy secretary says coal, oil will power U.S. for decades Samuel Bodman makes the remarks in speech to South Texas College of Law graduates Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle Oil and coal will continue to power the U.S. economy for many years, even as more emphasis is put on developing alternative sources of energy, U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said Saturday in Houston. "Fossil fuels will continue to dominate ... for several decades at least," Bodman said during a commencement address to about 350 members of the South Texas College of Law 2006 graduating class at the George R. Brown Convention Center. Bodman, who was sworn in as energy secretary in February 2005, said alternative forms of energy such as wind and ethanol fuel made from corn would contribute to the country's energy future. But one of the most important sources of energy will be nuclear power, along with the means of safely operating the plants and disposing of nuclear waste, he said. President Bush's administration goal is to replace 75 percent of the United States' Middle East oil imports with alternative fuels by 2025. Bodman has told Congress that part of the solution will come from increased research on hydrogen, solar and biological fuels, and fusion, a nuclear reaction that produces no radioactive waste. The linchpin to the administration's energy policy is the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership, a plan for developing new technologies in partnership with other countries that will make conventional nuclear power safer. --=====================_119870968==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3877480.html

May 21, 2006, 12:00AM
Energy secretary says coal, oil will power U.S. for decades
Samuel Bodman makes the remarks in speech to South Texas College of Law graduates

Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Oil and coal will continue to power the U.S. economy for many years, even as more emphasis is put on developing alternative sources of energy, U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said Saturday in Houston.

"Fossil fuels will continue to dominate ... for several decades at least," Bodman said during a commencement address to about 350 members of the South Texas College of Law 2006 graduating class at the George R. Brown Convention Center.

Bodman, who was sworn in as energy secretary in February 2005, said alternative forms of energy such as wind and ethanol fuel made from corn would contribute to the country's energy future.

But one of the most important sources of energy will be nuclear power, along with the means of safely operating the plants and disposing of nuclear waste, he said.

President Bush's administration goal is to replace 75 percent of the United States' Middle East oil imports with alternative fuels by 2025.

Bodman has told Congress that part of the solution will come from increased research on hydrogen, solar and biological fuels, and fusion, a nuclear reaction that produces no radioactive waste.

The linchpin to the administration's energy policy is the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership, a plan for developing new technologies in partnership with other countries that will make conventional nuclear power safer.
--=====================_119870968==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 09:48:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MGm3ix005743; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:48:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MGm3OP005733; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:48:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:48:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jpm60Ux2nqSvNrD+O8UBgPF/q5xrTeTbUUK+fSbPcozAfBXbq2H2ZOUifAROE15a; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065122164756424@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:47:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940db1f38101f9aecff4af78123fcad3d0c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.117 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII And I say if the Joe Cell or Klein's clone of it keeps going at the present rate there won't be any need for HOT or COLD FUSION,,Mills' Hydrino or much Coal, and Natural Gas either. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Krivit To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/22/2006 10:36:33 AM Subject: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3877480.html May 21, 2006, 12:00AM Energy secretary says coal, oil will power U.S. for decades Samuel Bodman makes the remarks in speech to South Texas College of Law graduates ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
And I say if the Joe Cell or Klein's clone of
it keeps going at the present rate there won't
be any need for HOT or COLD FUSION,,Mills' Hydrino or
much Coal, and Natural Gas  either.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/22/2006 10:36:33 AM
Subject: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3877480.html

May 21, 2006, 12:00AM
Energy secretary says coal, oil will power U.S. for decades
Samuel Bodman makes the remarks in speech to South Texas College of Law graduates

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 09:49:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MGnJCk006373; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:49:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MGnHJe006349; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:49:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:49:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:59:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522093633.029c7df0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steve, from the story you quote: >President Bush's administration goal is to replace 75 percent of > the United States' Middle East oil imports with alternative fuels by 2025. So what does that mean to you? Anyone else here care to comment? K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 09:53:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MGrEv5009094; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:53:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MGrCmk009066; Mon, 22 May 2006 09:53:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:53:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060522125301.03f906f8@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060522125050.03f53958@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:53:07 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CMNS: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12121421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12121421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >Oil and coal will continue to power the U.S. economy for many years, >even as more emphasis is put on developing alternative sources of >energy, U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said Saturday in Houston. That is what these people always say. Quoting myself: "Oil and electric company executives and energy experts on television often say the transition away from fossil fuel will take 50 to 70 years. They never discuss cold fusion in public, but when I have brought up the subject with them in private, they say it would be no different from conventional alternatives such as wind turbines or next-generation fission reactors. What they mean is, it would take them 70 years, because they would prefer to wait until their generators wear out and their oil wells run dry, and they would like the rest of us to operate on their schedule." Cold Fusion and the Future, chapter 13 - Jed --=====================_12121421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

Oil and coal will continue to power the U.S. economy for many years, even as more emphasis is put on developing alternative sources of energy, U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said Saturday in Houston.

That is what these people always say. Quoting myself:

"Oil and electric company executives and energy experts on television often say the transition away from fossil fuel will take 50 to 70 years. They never discuss cold fusion in public, but when I have brought up the subject with them in private, they say it would be no different from conventional alternatives such as wind turbines or next-generation fission reactors. What they mean is, it would take them 70 years, because they would prefer to wait until their generators wear out and their oil wells run dry, and they would like the rest of us to operate on their schedule."

Cold Fusion and the Future, chapter 13

- Jed
--=====================_12121421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 11:45:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MIjL1O002939; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:45:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MIjF2F002896; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:45:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:45:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060522184511564.89AFB1C00086@mwinf3206.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060522184512.00afbff0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:45:12 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:47 am 22/05/2006 -0600, you wrote: > And I say if the Joe Cell or Klein's clone of > it keeps going at the present rate there won't > be any need for HOT or COLD FUSION,,Mills' Hydrino or > much Coal, and Natural Gas either. > > Fred You sound as though you have confidence that it will, Fred. How long do you think it will be before a Vortexian can get one and give testimony to the rest of us that it works. Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 12:22:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MJK61q020096; Mon, 22 May 2006 12:22:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MJFeEs017788; Mon, 22 May 2006 12:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a801c67dd4$18897c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:15:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. But not funded through the traditional and wasteful cost-plus system, much-loved by our military ... Instead, the best ideas are rewarded by a very large cash prize - and only for success. IOW The X-Prize on steroids, part deux. Bump the value up to $50 million and stand back. If I should win a big National lottery, that is where the proceeds will go: the "Tuttle Hot-Air Prize" The goal would be to cut fossil fuel consumption in half in the near term (as fast as the infrastructure permits). This prize incentive makes sense, especially when it comes to advancing alternative energy, and it does serve to toss a lot of inbred power-industry conservatism and special interests out the window- from day one - as only good results count. Let's say that the imaginary donor - let's called it the X-Prize Foundation, or the (Ford, Microsoft, GE, IBM, 3M etc) X-Prize - if a corporate donor emerges... is able to offer three or four open-ended prizes in round-one - $50 million dollar cash prizes - for the demonstration (to independent experts) of any of the following. Here are my suggestions: 1) Any totally self-powered motor which managed to spin a mass of 1 kg at 500 RPM for one day using only magnetic or ZPE energy (no fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc.) or alternatively any solid state unit (ZPE or otherwise) which produces a full kilowatt hour of ongoing OU electrical power, for a day. 2) Any LENR (or hydrino) heat engine managing to produce a steady 5 kW per hour on average, of thermal heat using no more than 1 kWh of electrical input on average, for one day. This would make grid power competitive with natural gas for heating. As to why it is so seemingly severe - the newer heat pumps now provide a maximum COP of 4-1 (in practice and average of 3-1) and LENR needs to have at least the possibility of displacing the home heat pump. 3) Any home refueling solution that could provide the lowest renewable yearly transportation fuel cost for one typical vehicle - being $1000 or less - including amortization of the investment (not including the basic car itself - just the upgrades like batteries). This would be for the equivalent of 15,000 miles a year. The cost of gasoline will be set at $4 even though it may be more. This works out to 60 mpg or better at that price. Let's add that the prize claimant can use biofuel substitutions, so long as all costs are considered - or grid power and batteries in which the amortized cost of batteries was considered. This prize *highly favors* using grid power - or grid power plus some crop-fuel - which is probably a wise thing to aim for in the USA for the near term. About 20 million Americans are in a position to put some biomass to use - if a turnkey package were available. In rural communities, this could take the form of a "subdivision co-op. And grid power, despite its problems is a "sunk cost" having been paid for already by consumers for about 50 years - so it too can be considered and as a "resource" with a definite cost attached - to weight against gasoline. The last proviso means that the simplest solution - present-day batteries will not be adequate, even using nighttime charging, unless the battery cost for total plug-in capability - can be drastically lowered (a factor of ~3) - from over the $10,000 minimum for enough lithium cells to get the Prius to "full plug-in capability" or 65 mph for two hours on the freeway. I have, of course, carefully worded this last X-Prize proviso so that it will possibly accommodate one my two favorite alternative-energy-projects - the first one involves liquid air - enriched in O2. This has many advantages over the recent and simpler suggestions of compressed air. Why "just compress" when the liquid has some any advantages? However, the answer is obvious as to why liquid air hybrids would be delayed over compressed air hybrids - it is so complex that much help from Detroit (and the National Labs) is required. Though it is more complicated (especially in infrastructure) than other possibilities, it is not necessarily more speculative. It is probably the only solution which has a chance to make a "big" difference in net fuel costs, but even then requires a partnering auto maker to provide (at the standard markup) the necessary (very small !500 cc) diesel engine plus the heat-exchanger/turbine, in order for the car to expand liquid air, and this as a standard option. Not to mention a largish cryo-tank. These are basically the same parts used for a turbocharger except in this case the compressor is removed and a high speed generator added. The expanded oxy-enriched air is then burned in the diesel In mass production it should add no cost over a turbo-diesel and is potentially less costly than the Prius with plug-in level of batteries. It might seem crazy, at first blush, to consider making and carrying all the oxidizer that the car needs, but the preliminary figures indicate that it is the most economical way to get to a 100 plus MPG vehicle (more like 150) and ... compared to the bettery (better battery) for the plug-in - the net cost is less - even in summer - and in winter the cost is far less - almost free(cogeneration of home heat). Details to follow... Jones . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 14:22:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MLMIAV015824; Mon, 22 May 2006 14:22:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MLMGbw015793; Mon, 22 May 2006 14:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:22:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Free Electricity Pending Patent Applications Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:22:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2006 21:22:10.0038 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9083960:01C67DE5] Resent-Message-ID: <-BOJT.A.o2D.HuicEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, Family list 5 family members for: WO2004019476 Derived from 2 applications. 1 FREE ELECTRICITY THROUGH VIRTUAL AND SEQUENTIAL TRANSFER OF MASS BY MUCH REDUCED NET FORCE AND APPLICATION OF NEW CONCEPTS IN SCIENCE in my patents list Publication info: AU2003249445 A1 - 2004-03-11 AU2003249445 A8 - 2004-03-11 2 FREE ELECTRICITY THROUGH VIRTUAL AND SEQUENTIAL TRANSFER OF MASS BY MUCH REDUCED NET FORCE AND APPLICATION OF NEW CONCEPTS IN SCIENCE in my patents list Publication info: WO2004019476 A2 - 2004-03-04 WO2004019476 A3 - 2004-07-22 WO2004019476 A8 - 2004-04-22 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 15:44:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MMiBwx020090; Mon, 22 May 2006 15:44:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MMi9S9020076; Mon, 22 May 2006 15:44:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 15:44:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017a01c67df1$389cd370$98df163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:43:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > from the story you quote: >>President Bush's administration goal is to replace 75 percent of >> the United States' Middle East oil imports with alternative fuels by >> 2025. > > So what does that mean to you? Anyone else here care to comment? Well, I'll answer that, sarcastically as always of course. My faith in anything that El Presidente Bush has to say has dwindled to a record low, as has his popularity amongst most Americans, it seems. I also find the statement "75 percent of...Middle East oil imports" a bit fishy. AFAIK, we import most of our oil from other regions than the middle east....can anyone comment on this? If that is indeed the case, then it would amount to cutting 75 percent of XX percent of our total imports of oil. So what does that help? Not a damned thing, in my opinion. 1. We will still be burning oil without seriously looking into something else. 2. The supply of oil will remain (relatively) constant, insofar as if we import only from say South American fields, the Middle Easterners will just sell to someone else. Doesn't really do much to combat the amounts of money flowing to terrorism from oil exports, does it? So I am very skeptical of this. And just about anything else the Bush (or any other recent) administration has to say. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 15:56:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MMtq4E024776; Mon, 22 May 2006 15:55:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MMto7V024756; Mon, 22 May 2006 15:55:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 15:55:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: letters@theage.com.au Subject: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:55:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.39] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 22:55:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4MMtmHZ024734 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Prime Minister, As well as having Uranium resources among the largest in the World, Australia has about a million square kilometers of desert admirably suited to the collection of solar energy, and pretty much useless for anything else. In fact we could more than supply the entire planet with solar based energy, giving us a new export industry greater than any we currently have. Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses, with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface" technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently is (guesstimate). That would make it cheaper than all existing technologies. Furthermore modular construction can be used for a solar installation, with small segments being brought "on line" as they are completed, whereas a nuclear plant doesn't start producing power until the whole thing is completed. The expertise already exists in Australian universities, particularly UNSW. To top it off, it would vastly improve Australia's "green" image in the World. R. van Spaandonk 5/11 Forest View Lane Upper Ferntree Gully Vic. (03)97560123 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 16:04:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MN3qNe027981; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:03:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MN3oiL027964; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:03:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:03:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Andreas Luzzi Subject: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:03:41 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.39] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 23:03:40 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4MN3g5F027905 Resent-Message-ID: <9nSMeD.A.00G.WNkcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Andreas, This is a copy of a letter sent to the letters pages of major Australian newspapers (which they don't appear inclined to print), and copied to the PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Prime Minister, As well as having Uranium resources among the largest in the World, Australia has about a million square kilometers of desert admirably suited to the collection of solar energy, and pretty much useless for anything else. In fact we could more than supply the entire planet with solar based energy, giving us a new export industry greater than any we currently have. Using dirt cheap paper thin plastic cylindrical Fresnel lenses, with the actual plumbing lying on the surface, and hence requiring no supporting structure, combined with "selective surface" technology, solar could be 10-100 times cheaper than it currently is (guesstimate). That would make it cheaper than all existing technologies. Furthermore modular construction can be used for a solar installation, with small segments being brought "on line" as they are completed, whereas a nuclear plant doesn't start producing power until the whole thing is completed. The expertise already exists in Australian universities, particularly UNSW. To top it off, it would vastly improve Australia's "green" image in the World. R. van Spaandonk 5/11 Forest View Lane Upper Ferntree Gully Vic. (03)97560123 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 16:19:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MNJ1HH001271; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:19:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MNIvoZ001234; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:18:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:18:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Nuclear future for Australia? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:18:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <446EC508.5000504@iinet.net.au> <7.0.1.0.2.20060522094448.03ce74a0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060522094448.03ce74a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.39] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 23:18:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4MNIrfj001190 Resent-Message-ID: <2Q7wxC.A.MT.hbkcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 22 May 2006 09:55:20 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Not quite true. Wind is still slightly more expensive than coal or >>gas, Solar thermal more expensive than wind. > >Only when you ignore the social cost of pollution and mining. While true, that's exactly how it's calculated. Those costs to society *are* ignored, not just by government, but by society itself. Solar needs to be cheaper than the *current* cost of fossil fuel based power. Then, and only then, will it see widespread use. [snip] >>We have both. Believe you me, if Solar were cheaper than coal or >>gas, there would no holding the utilities back. :) > >I disagree. History shows that the utility companies were happy to >join regulators and coal companies to drive LUZ out of business. That's because they weren't doing it themselves. >If >the cost of electricity falls to a penny or less per KWH, the utility >companies will make a lot less money. Yes they would. However that isn't what I said. What I propose would drive down the cost of energy *to the utility companies*, not necessarily the cost of electricity to the consumer. Eventually due to competition, that would fall too, but initially the utilities would walk away with windfall profits. >Efficiency and progress is not >their best interest. If cold fusion emerges, you can darn sure they >will fight it tooth and nail, until the day it bankrupts them. It isn't going to bankrupt them if they are the ones making the profit. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 16:25:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MNPWw3004353; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:25:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4MNPUfV004324; Mon, 22 May 2006 16:25:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:25:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:25:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522093633.029c7df0@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522093633.029c7df0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.39] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 May 2006 23:25:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4MNPPQP004284 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Mon, 22 May 2006 09:37:12 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Bodman has told Congress that part of the solution will come from increased >research on hydrogen, solar and biological fuels, and fusion, a nuclear >reaction that produces no radioactive waste. Perhaps someone should tell him that the only form of fusion that produces no radioactive waste is Cold Fusion. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 21:11:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N4Abco018130; Mon, 22 May 2006 21:11:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4N3s4qq012538; Mon, 22 May 2006 20:54:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:54:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522205259.02c29230@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:54:58 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060522093633.029c7df0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_KgGqD.A.sDD.adocEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, ain't that a kick? First prize for the Australian team. >Perhaps someone should tell him that the only form of fusion that >produces no radioactive waste is Cold Fusion. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 21:32:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N4W2Kp030179; Mon, 22 May 2006 21:32:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4N4W28B030165; Mon, 22 May 2006 21:32:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:32:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Orgone-Argon Lightbulb Glow Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:31:55 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006512283840625@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006512283840625@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.39] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 May 2006 04:31:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4N4VxXn030126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 22 May 2006 02:38:40 -0600: Hi Fred, [snip] >That new 40 watt light bulb that I tested some time back >keeps rejuvenating itself and really glows orange to white >in less than ten seconds on the first 800 watt microwave hit >then white to blue blue-green in less than 4 seconds on the 2nd hit.. >Something of interest diffusing into it, Robin? > >Fred What about the third and subsequent "hits"? (Perhaps something is being driven out by the first hit?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 22 21:52:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N4qbhg005196; Mon, 22 May 2006 21:52:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4N4qZUM005175; Mon, 22 May 2006 21:52:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:52:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060523045230498.79BC58800081@mwinf3014.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060523045231.0093c09c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 05:52:31 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...upon the clouds of heaven... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4N4qXN1005158 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Trying to find out more about the increase in pressure on water droplets as their size decrease I googled ["surface tension" parachor] and stumbled on a rather interesting review of Einstein's first paper. The bit relating to the Parachor comes at the end. ======================================================== http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/(a0ntxpzxcdx5vcaqwtrf hdvs)/app/home/content.asp?referrer=contribution&format= 3&page=1&pagecount=6 -------------------------------------------------------- CONNECTION TO THE PARACHOR The paper is very difficult to understand, not least because of the large number of obvious misprints; from its lack of clarity we can only assume that it had not been independently refereed. We could well imagine Ostwald depositing it in the bin when the paper was received from Einstein’s father. Yet it was an extraordinarily advanced paper for a recent graduate who was receiving no independent scientific advice. The idea behind a stoichiometric analysis of surface tension goes back to the work of R. Schiff, and this was well discussed in Ostwald’s book, but to suppose that one could obtain some information about inter- molecular potentials by such an analysis is probably Einstein’s own idea. It is interesting that the stoichiometric analysis of surface tension and its interpretation through molecular structure became very popular from the work on the parachor, a quantity introduced by Sugden[7] and others in the 1920s. The parachor is equal to the fourth root of the surface tension 94 John N. Murrell and Nicole Grobert divided by the difference between the liquid and gas densities, and multiplied by the molecular mass, and is a quantity that is largely independent of temperature. The parachor was subjected to a large number of analyses and interpretations in subsequent years, but the subject died a rapid death in the 1940s. ========================================================= (Mmm...They dropped the baton in favour of the "nuculus"). Now these fourth power laws keep cropping up. So far we have Temperature, Casimir, Vapour Pressure and now the Parachor. We also have a rather more subtle one, Jerk, if Jerk is looked at not from the velocity datum but from the more fundamental static datum, displacement. So what's with all these fourth power laws? Where do they all come from? The big hint is given by the fact that they turn up in the context of surface tension. Surfaces involve a square law. So two surfaces involve a fourth power law. But what are these two surfaces? They are the Solid Phase and the Fluid Phase. One is expanding (negative strain energy) whilst the other is contracting (positive strain energy). In effect, the Fluid Phase is the datum for measuring the change in the Solid Phase. It's a bit like the Tardis. If you're a Doctor Who fan you'll soon get the idea. Fortunately, I tackled the problem of the Nature of Spaces many years ago in: NOTE NO IN 55/70 A HIERARCHICAL DIPHASE MODEL OF MATERIAL BEHAVIOUR so I was able to recognise the answer when I saw it. For the benefit of Vortexians who don't have access the Files Section of the Beta-atmosphere Group I have copied the relevant excerpt below. ======================================================= MULTIPLICITY OF SPACES Just as there is a multiplicity of hierarchical fluids or particle fields, so there is a multiplicity of corresponding spaces. Any real object, since it is a hierarchical body, exists in a multitude of different spaces. Consequently it can be moving at one speed in a particular direction in one hierarchical space and quite another speed in the opposite direction in a complementary hierarchical space . A good example of this is provided by a cork floating on water. The two complementary spaces in which the cork exists are the air and the water. These spaces are particularly useful for explanatory purposes because they are separated and not intermingled as are hierarchical spaces in general. Usually the two hierarchical spaces, the air and the water, will be moving relative to one another. If we use one space as a frame of reference, the water say, the cork will be moving at a speed Vw in a direction theta deg. through that space. If on the other hand we use the air as a frame of reference then the cork will be moving at a speed v[a] in a direction (180 + theta)deg through the air space. The numerical sum of the relative speeds in the air and water spaces will equal the speed of the two spaces relative to each other. The movement of the cork through the two spaces in opposite directions will set up two drag forces, fw in direction (180 + theta deg.) in the water space and fa acting in direction theta deg. in the air space. The ratio va/vw will be governed by the requirement fw = fa. In the above example two particular hierarchical spaces were considered and these spaces were complementary, i.e. they were taken as comprising the totality of spaces in which the object existed. The spaces were defined as air and water space for ease of explanation but they could have been defined more precisely as water and not water space; this definition makes the totality of the space more apparent. The general principles which apply to two complementary hierarchical spaces can be extended to n complementary hierarchical spaces which can be separate as in the case of air and water or co-extensive as in the case of air and a cloud of gnats, say. In general a body will be moving at a different speed and in a different direction in every hierarchical space in which it exists. The relative speeds will be those for which the algebraic sum of the drag vectors is zero. At this point it is pertinent to ask the question, what is the relationship between a hierarchical space and Cartesian space? This question is best answered by drawing a comparison between Cartesian space and the interval between zero and one. In a unit of Cartesian space the number of points is unlimited. In a hierarchical space however the number of points is limited and can be specified numerically. Thus a particular hierarchical space corresponds to a particular class of fractions, 1/1000ths say. A different hierarchical space will correspond to a different set of fractions, 1/999 ths say. It can be seen therefore that we can carve an unlimited number of hierarchical spaces out of Cartesian space. The objection to the Cartesian concept of continuous space is that it involves unlimited numbers and these cannot be specified numerically nor grasped conceptually whereas the concept of hierarchical space can because of its discontinuous nature. This problem of continuity has occurred many times before. The classic example is of course the conflict between the wave and particle behaviour of electromagnetic radiation; a more revealing but less well known example is the one given by communication theory where it is only by treating a varying signal as a discontinuous process that problems of information content and coding become tractable(6) (12). EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL SPACES For every identifiable level of an object there will be an external and an internal hierarchical space. The internal space comprises the external space of the object at the next identifiable level down. The existence of the object at any level is the manifestation of the difference between the external and the internal space. For a hierarchical space where the difference between these two spaces is negligible, the existence of this space may be neglected in considering the properties of the object. If existence at any level is defined as the manifestation of a difference between the object and its environment at that level then for hierarchies where the difference between the internal and the external environments are negligibly small the existence in these hierarchies can in practice be neglected. The surface of an object is the boundary between its internal and external environment. Where there is a sharp discontinuity between internal and external environment there will be a sharp boundary; where the discontinuity between internal and external environment is more gradual the boundary surface will be correspondingly diffuse. Since an object exists in a hierarchical set of spaces it should have a corresponding hierarchical set of surfaces. It will be readily recognised that this is indeed so. Moreover, an object is only a single object at its highest hierarchical level of existence. At lower hierarchical levels it is a collection of objects. This raises the problem of the one and the many, the simple and the complex which will be dealt with in a later section. Just as an object is in equilibrium in relation to all the forces generated by existence in and movement through the external hierarchical spaces, so an element of the surface is in equilibrium between the external and internal environments. HIERARCHICAL SURFACES Consideration of internal and external spaces has focussed attention on the fact that a body has many different hierarchical surfaces. We normally consider the surface of an object to be the surface detectable by sight. In general this surface will also coincide with the surface detectable by touching the object with another object but many exceptions to this rule occur. An obvious example is that of a plate glass door under the right lighting conditions. A less obvious example is a pair of magnets the like poles of which are brought together; in this case the magnetic surface is exterior and much less sharp than the visual surface and we do not recognise its surface characteristic. Recognition of the existence of different hierarchical surfaces leads to the realisation that all repulsive forces between objects are manifestations of the deformation of a hierarchical surface. In other words, repulsive forces commence when the two hierarchical surfaces touch. This is shown in Fig 3 in relation to the Condon-Morse curve by dividing the force distance diagram into three separate regions. When the atoms are separated then the distance of the atomic surface from the atomic centre is d2. When the atoms are at their lowest potential energy position, i.e. total force F = 0 then the distance of the surface from the atomic centre is d1. The zone between d1 and d2 constitutes the surface zone, in other words the surface. This example draws attention to the importance of time and volume in relation to the concept of surface. The importance of time can be illustrated by a simple example. Suppose we have an aeroplane propeller rotating at high speed. If a goose flies into the propeller it will soon find that the surface of the propeller is defined by the swept volume of the static propeller. We may describe this surface as the dynamic propeller surface (an interesting example of dynamic volumes of this type is given by the Bènard cells formed by convection currents in a thin layer of fluid uniformly heated; see Fig 4). However for a bullet fired at the propeller the surface of the propeller is essentially the same as the surface of the static propeller. It can be seen that just as different hierarchical surfaces of an object become manifest as the spacial scale of scrutiny is altered so also different hierarchical surfaces become manifest as the temporal scale of scrutiny is altered. The importance of volume in relation to the concept of surface is that it gives it reality. A surface must not be though of as a geometric abstraction, as a two dimensional concept with no physical reality, but as a real entity, dependent on the antecedent existence of the object and the environment but quite distinct from them. Examples of this interaction term can be given for every system. The child is an example of the interaction term in the sociological field. It is dependent on the antecedent existence of its parents but it is quite distinct from them. In a biological context the surface or interaction term constitutes a skin or membrane which is a physical entity in its own right having a definite though usually small thickness. In terms of political geography the surface or interaction term comprises a border zone which will generally be found to constitute a small but distinct region in comparison with the two parent countries. In communications the surface term corresponds to the communication channel between the sender and the receiver, a physical entity distinct from either the sender or the receiver. In sentence structure the surface term corresponds to the verb which relates the subject to the object. In mathematics the surface or interaction term is the combinatorial sign between the two numbers. This combinatorial sign has a conceptual reality equal to the conceptual reality of the number concepts. ======================================================= You see how easy the answer can be when you adopt a top down strategy rather that a bottom up strategy. 8-) The whole is more than the sum of its parts. Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 02:44:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N9iWWa008464; Tue, 23 May 2006 02:44:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4N9iUX9008447; Tue, 23 May 2006 02:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 02:44:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZRegzonJXJaj3S0Erq4ofyZvoZRefwxIMp+DtsrPQFNKlf5CNZva7/dM0pMmzSFX; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652239442614@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 03:44:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94076bd9832f59f79b83d78476120ca3ead350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.250 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided by the floating plates F across the 4 cells. 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water collected at the floating plate interface allows the the electron of the OH - to go through the floated plates to neutralize the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The Cathode ( - ) and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. The Battery sees the small current through the cell. But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the floated plates. IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and Metal-Water Interface Effects. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm B - F F f B+ Cathode - |+ -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ Anode ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII  
1, The battery voltage B - and B+  is divided by the floating plates F across the 4 cells.
 
2, The naturally formed H3O +  (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water collected at the floating
plate interface allows the the electron of the OH - to go through the floated plates to neutralize
the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The Cathode ( - )
and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there.
 
The Battery sees the small current through the cell.
But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the floated plates.
 
IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and Metal-Water Interface Effects.
 
 
                   B -     F       F        f        B+
Cathode - |+    -|+    -|+    -|+    -|+ Anode
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 05:50:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NCoPOQ009300; Tue, 23 May 2006 05:50:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NCoJR8009245; Tue, 23 May 2006 05:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 05:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c67e67$672be8e0$ec027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: ..upon the clouds of heaven Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:49:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67E3D.7D2A5930" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67E3D.7D2A5930 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C67E3D.7D2EED10" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C67E3D.7D2EED10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Grimer wrote.. > The big hint is given by the fact that they turn up in the context of surface tension. Surfaces involve a square law. So two surfaces involve a fourth power law. But what are these two surfaces? They are the Solid Phase and the Fluid Phase. One is expanding (negative strain energy) whilst the other is contracting (positive strain energy). In effect, the Fluid Phase is the datum for measuring the change in the Solid Phase. It's a bit like the Tardis. If you're a Doctor Who fan you'll soon get the idea. Howdy Frank.. My !, what big eyes you have grandma.. or so said little red riding hood = < grin>=20 As the water exits the drain in my sink, the vortex formed describes a = spiral with a hollow tube in the center. Should I interrupt the rotation = by sticking my finger in the hollow tube, the exiting flow rate is = reduced. How can this be ?? The cross sectional area of the water phase is = increased by removing the hollow tube . right? Yes !.. BUT..( that English word again.. but) Thats not the half of it.. = a keen observation of the spiral reveals that not only a downward flow = is happening while the vortex is allowed to work its magic.. an upward, = counter rotational flow is happening. Wait a minute , you say!!.. wouldn't the flow rate be greater by = interruption of the spiral since that would prevent the "upward counter = rotational flow that takes place in a vortex? NO!!.. Well. why not? = Because I said so and if you dont believe it go back and read Grimers = post in the " Beta Chronicles" ,, sure beats reading " Alice in = Wonderland" . Lewis Carroll admitted he didn't know what magic was = either. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C67E3D.7D2EED10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 

 

Grimer wrote..

> The big hint is given
by the fact that they turn up in = the=20 context of
surface tension.

Surfaces involve a square law. So = two=20 surfaces
involve a fourth power law.

But what are these two=20 surfaces?

They are the Solid Phase and the Fluid Phase.
One is = expanding (negative strain energy) whilst the
other is contracting = (positive=20 strain energy).
In effect, the Fluid Phase is the datum for = measuring
the=20 change in the Solid Phase.

It's a bit like the Tardis. If you're=20 a
Doctor Who fan you'll soon get the idea.

Howdy Frank..

My !, what big eyes you have grandma.. or so said little red riding = hood <=20 grin>

As the water exits the drain in my sink, the vortex formed describes = a spiral=20 with a hollow tube in the center. Should I interrupt the rotation by = sticking my=20 finger in the hollow tube, the exiting flow rate is reduced.

How can this be ?? The cross sectional area of the water phase is = increased=20 by removing the hollow tube . right?

Yes !.. BUT..( that English word again.. but) Thats not the half of = it.. a=20 keen observation of the spiral reveals that not only a downward flow is=20 happening while the vortex is allowed to work its magic.. an upward, = counter=20 rotational flow is happening.

Wait a minute , you say!!.. wouldn't the flow rate be greater by = interruption=20 of the spiral since that would prevent the "upward counter rotational = flow that=20 takes place in a vortex? NO!!.. Well. why not? Because I said so and if = you dont=20 believe it go back and read Grimers post in the " Beta Chronicles" = ,, sure=20 beats reading " Alice in Wonderland" . Lewis Carroll admitted he didn't = know=20 what magic was either.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C67E3D.7D2EED10-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67E3D.7D2A5930 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c67e67$65e1b5a0$ec027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C67E3D.7D2A5930-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 06:40:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NDe6Fe008782; Tue, 23 May 2006 06:40:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NDUgYl002599; Tue, 23 May 2006 06:30:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 06:30:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005001c67e6d$10bdff60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200652239442614@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:30:32 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Resent-Message-ID: <-dKIhC.A.fo._5wcEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, here are two interesting related articles. They are right on topic and make the link between the Gibbs Free Energy change we were discussing the other day and equilibrium concentrations of reactants and products: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_constant "Dissociation constant of water As a frequently used special case, the dissociation constant of water is often expressed as Kw: Kw = [H + ][OH ? ] (The concentration of water [H2O] is not included in the definition of kw, for reasons described in equilibrium constant.)" Water dissociation constant is nothing but the H2O autoionization reaction's equilibrium constant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_constant "The equilibrium constant is related to the Gibbs free energy through a Boltzmann distribution as: K=e^(-dG0/RT) Where dG0 is the energy difference between reactants and products, R is the gas constant and T the absolute temperature." Haven't time to look up the figure nor do the calculation but if one plugs the Gibbs Free Energy change found the other day for water dissociation into the second equation with temperature T=273+25=298K and gas constant R = 8.31 J · K-1 · mol, and then plugs the result K into the first (Kw=K of water dissoc.), one should recover the well-known [H + ][OH ? ] =~ 10^(-14) at 25°C. Hopefully. Cheers, Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > 1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided by the floating plates F > across the 4 cells. > > 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water > collected at the floating > plate interface allows the the electron of the OH - to go through the > floated plates to neutralize > the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The > Cathode ( - ) > and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. > > The Battery sees the small current through the cell. > But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the > floated plates. > > IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and > Metal-Water Interface Effects. > > http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm > > B - F F f B+ > Cathode - |+ -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ Anode From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 08:12:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NFC08j026947; Tue, 23 May 2006 08:12:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NFBweC026915; Tue, 23 May 2006 08:11:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:11:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=e2TJ0s1AKtTEbfNnief/3L5O5iYMgIPozMX4HxpQe+7Lcnqbng5lyP5g2dQ4fMi3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065223151144743@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:11:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400ca8922a4fa65dc451487034c13c2dd6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.173 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Fred, here are two interesting related articles. They are right on topic and > make the link between the Gibbs Free Energy change we were discussing the > other day and equilibrium concentrations of reactants and products: > That part is easy Michel, there are lots of data on Autoionization of Water, most of the good stuff on the Adsorption-Desorption Energy of Water on Metals that pertains to the Interface Effects is tied up in pay per view web sites. My experience with the tenacity of water on glass or metals was in high vacuum work where long-time pumping and bake-out were required. Never quantified it though. . Here's one on Glass/Silica: http://www.oetg.at/website/wtc2001cd/html/M-00-04-489-SCHERGE.pdf OTOH. Catalyst properties are germane. And if you can journey through this one for Uncharged Metal Surfaces. http://arxiv.org/html/cond-mat/0001076/paper.html "The adsorption of water on metal surfaces is complex [18]. The data in Table 1 refer to the relative adsorption energy of an H2O molecule in a periodic array for a quarter of a monolayer. The calculated absolute value of the adsorption energy for such a molecule is 8 kcal/mol. The equilibrium adsorption position of the oxygen atom within the molecule changes from that of atomic oxygen, in contrast to the case of formation of hydroxyl radicals from adsorbed O and H where the equilibrium adsorption position remains in the fcc-hollow site. No difference in adsorption energy was found if the position of the two H atoms in the water molecule was rotated by 90 degrees, indicating that the two H atoms of the adsorbed water molecule may rotate freely around the surface normal. However, it is well known that water does not adsorb as isolated molecules at temperatures at which the molecules are sufficiently mobile, but tends to form clusters in which water molecules are connected by hydrogen bonds. The value of those hydrogen bonds (typically 4 to 6 kcal/mol [18]) is of the same order of magnitude as the water adsorption energy. On Rh(111) water forms an ice bilayer which has long-range order on the surface [18]. We found only small changes in their structural parameters. We have optimized the adsorption geometry for a bilayer of water starting from the structure suggested in the review of Thiel and Madey [18]. The bilayer was calculated to be 10 kcal/mol more stable than molecules at a coverage of 0.25 monolayer. Given their rapid diffusion, the water molecules will form such ice layers even at low temperatures." Snip: > > > > 1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided by the floating plates F > > across the 4 cells. > > > > 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water > > collected at the floating > > plate interface allows the electron of the OH - to go through the > > floated plates to neutralize > > the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The > > Cathode ( - ) > > and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. > > > > The Battery sees the small current through the cell. > > But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the > > floated plates. > > > > IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and > > Metal-Water Interface Effects. > > > > http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm > > > > B - F F F B+ > > Cathode - |+ -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ Anode > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 09:22:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NGM1Om004326; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:22:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NGLv5m004279; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lT6btfOTD0ZLi2UpFiWCzhvb8BLzURfzvb7RFqTuRJVq7W4K8KVRojY6ItEMRzyQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065223162128104@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:21:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406a1f3850f55e963bc060486c7c597502350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here it is. All 175 Pages :-) P A Thiel, T E Madey / The interaction of water with solid surfaces: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey _SSR_1987_T.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 09:28:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NGRq4B008490; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:27:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NGRlfD008432; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:27:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:27:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c67e85$cf6e4ba0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: (Hy-) An Alternative viewpoint Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:27:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mills has been investigating the hydrino for 17 years now, and it is somewhat presumptuous to try to second-guess him on any of those details -as no one publishes "all" they know. And Mills is a recognized genius who must know more than what he divulges - but in CQM, he may have made many remarkable advances, together with a few errors. He may have more data stashed away, but from what he has released publicly there are strong alternatives to a few of his conclusions, even alternative which fit into the base-CQM theory - sort-of.... And having never been restrained in the past from being an old-fool who is presumptuous enough to spit-in-the-eye of the recognized authorities, when there are obviously in error ... here goes another foray into creating a minority-of-minorities viewpoint. Damn the torpedoes.... In the last few years, it appears that Mills has taken a fancy to the hydrino hydride (especially as his marketing-salvation in the eyes of investors, since he cannot publicly demonstrate robust OU) which will be designated as (Hy-) , and particularly to the (Hy-)compounds - the HHCs. These would indeed be very valuable - for batteries, for instance - if they were not already free (and you knew where to look). According to Mills, this (Hy-) is a stable ion (in most cases more stable than any atom) which, crazy as it sounds, has an extra electron dangling onto it. I do not like this image - and am almost certain that it is incorrect. Electrons have a very strong propensity - almost an ultimatum in nature - to be *paired* as equals. I think he got this model of unequal pairing very wrong, and that this basic error has poisoned his entire HHC thinking. Here is what he says: (along with a pic of the HHCs if you want to see something tangible) http://www.blacklightpower.com/applications.shtml "The lower-energy atomic hydrogen product of the BlackLight Process reacts with an electron to form a hydride ion, which further reacts with elements other than hydrogen to form novel proprietary compounds called hydrino hydride compounds (HHCs). BlackLight is developing the vast class of proprietary chemical compounds formed via the BlackLight Process. Test results indicate that the properties of HHCs are rich in diversity due to their extraordinary binding energy (i.e., the energy required to remove an electron which determines the chemical reactivity and properties). " At any rate, the "alternative viewpoint" presented herein - is aimed mainly only that segment of hydrinos which is primordial, solar-derived, and of very large "shrinkage". - i.e. these are solar (cosmic) hydrinos of mated paired electrons, in very compact orbitals. This accounts for probably 99.99+ % of all hydrinos in the big picture, and this "alternative viewpoint" has advantages - none of which has been, or can be, anticipated by Mills - since he is wed to this indefensible viewpoint of unequal pairing. I say "solar" in derivation to differentiate the highly shrunken variety from the kind which Mills produces in experiments. This kind of hydrino may have been created in the big-bang, or an Arp sequential little-bang, or wherever... but the main point is that creation of them require massive energy together with massive gravity, and at the same instant in formative time, in order to create and stabilize in this highly shrunken state. All but impossible to do on earth. BLP cannot, under any circumstances except using the fiction of "auto-catalysis", produce these highly shrunken variety in a vacuum, as it takes way too much energy input+pressure ... yet Mills may have seen them, as they are ubiquitous, and he thinks they came from his experiment. Forgivable error, except for the secondary invention of "auto-catalysis" to shoehorn everything together. The compact variety did not derive from any earthly experiment. They are primordial, and the whole idea of "auto-catalysis" is a fabulous-fable, so to speak. Consider instead that these highly shrunken (Hy-) are created cosmologically and ARE the major part of what we call "dark matter" and are ubiquitous. Just how "ubiquitous" remains to be seen. The question on every careful observer's lips then is: How can they NOT express a negative charge, naturally ? That should be quite obvious to anyone who has studied Hotson's work and is willing to extend that basic idea of the BEC-epo field to include the interfacial layer of the aether. The (Hy-) is polarizing the epo field at the interface (to reciprocal space), which is effectively neutralizing the negative charge in our 3-space. This particular level of aether interface is purely a matter of geometry - and exists at the far-sub-angstrom. In Frank Grimer's hierarchy, it would be called the gamma-aether, most likely. The negative charge is there - just hidden - and it is always derived initially from equally paired electrons in very tight orbitals (n greater than 1/8 or so). Only at a certain tiny dimension will the neutralizing effect of epo polarization set in - so the slightly shrunken variety which Mills makes in his lab are charged ions - but not the cosmic variety. This viewpoint can explain, among other things, how this species gets into atoms undetected, and why it stays there. Note that for purposes of IP, these atoms with the "neutralized" solar hydrinos (Hy-Psx) are not HHCs as Mills defines them. BTW in this tentative designation of: (Hy-Psx) - the hydrinohydride with paired electrons and of approximately n=1/8 down to 1/17 shrinkage- the Ps is positronium in the form of a neutralizing cage - most likely a tetrahedron of 4 "interfacial" Ps, which are not quite virtual and not quite real. In actuality it could be a "cage" of 12, or twenty, or 60 or more formerly "virtual" Ps atoms, quien sabe? Since the epo in a BEC state normally, the effective number is infinite - or just one (depending on semantics) Now back to the issue of "Special-K" and the possibility of a heavy Argon species, which is basically 39-potassium gasified by the capture of a solar (Hy-Psx) in which the hydrino is a resonant "fit" and stays put. In a previous posting, the opinion was expressed that the electron complement is 20 (and Robin v S. sees this differently, for different reasons) but with eight in the outer orbital- the (Hy-Psx) modifying the entire k-shell and "deflating" the former-K-atom, so that the 8+8 outer electrons are now in identical orbits as if it were an argon atom with a very strange interior. This creates secondary problems, but that is why the wild-hairs on vortex, like the Energizer wild-hare, "keep-going-and-going". OK admittedly not there yet... but there is some small satisfaction from another foray into formulating a coherent minority-of-minorities viewpoint, where a few things fit more elegantly than in the minority-prototype, which is CQM - let's just say that it is a meme with a half-life of at least a few hours. This calls for a cafe-latte-grande. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 10:08:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NH8Lm0029015; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:08:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NH8KtM028981; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:08:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:08:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=prnOzMInsbgRsbWu4zvu3YMtxxbbZvHkDihpJ7C5nKebTSD1xj+AwSNbRJHCYwr7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200652231789672@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:08:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94066dd92c45b9e98757e223316b124ff67350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: P A Thiel, T E Madey / The interaction of water with solid surfaces: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey _SSR_1987_T.pdf "Finally, the magnitude of the chemical bond which water forms with metal surfaces is typically on the order of 40 to 65 kJ/mol (10 to 15 kcal/mol, or 0.4 to 0.7 ev). The experimental basis for thts number is discussed in detail in section 4.2. The strengths of bonds to other types of well-defined surfaces are less-known; heats of adsorption on oxide powders also range from about 40 to 60 kJ/mol [22], which is addressed in section 7.1. Thus, compared with adsorbates such as CO or O,, H,O is a weakly chermsorbed species, on the borderline of physisorption. It is this weak interaction with the surface whtch makes intermolecular hydrogen bonding energetically favorable. As mentioned in section 2.2.2, hydrogen bond strengths in ice and water are typically 15 to 25 kJ/mol(4 to 6 kcal/mol or 0.2 to 0.3 eV). There is abundant evidence that water forms ice-like clusters on surfaces, similar to those shown m fig. 12 (p. 228) m which some water molecules form direct bonds to the surface and others are only held via hydrogen bonds to the first-layer molecules, forming a three-dimen- sional network. A possible cluster is shown m fig. 17. It is clear that a molecule which only forms two hydrogen bonds is bound by an energy at least comparable in magnitude to the chemisorption bond energy, so that formation of such clusters is certainly plausible. The tendency of water to form hydro- gen-bonded, three-dimensional islands at surfaces is a characteristic property which will recur in many aspects of our discussion. Evidence exists for the formation of hydrogen-bonded clusters on very many substrates, yet most theoretical models of surfaces to date treat isolated adsorbed H,O molecules. (The model of Paul and Rosen is an exception [64].) Intermolecular interaction is clearly very important, and so direct comparison between theoretical and expenmental work can, as yet, be made only m rare cases. Hydrogen bonding may be less prevalent for H,O on iomc surfaces, where the adsorption energy at specific sites is in some cases high enough to prevent clustermg (see section 7)." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 12:33:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NJXBZp030806; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:33:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NJX8SS030784; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:33:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:33:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:31:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-reply-to: <175601c67c65$0d68a220$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It works more like a sailing ship except the "wind" (in this case a charge difference) is always blowing in the direction you want to go. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > No I am afraid it wouldn't work, even with an initial push :) This would > only work if the car expended no power to maintain it's speed (which is not > the case), and if all efficiencies in the system were 100% (which is not the > case), otherwise each time you go round the closed power loop you loose > power, perpetual motion just doesn't work you know :/ > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:23 AM > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > >> >> >> An initial push would be required (perhaps from a batery), but once >> the car was up to speed the power to maintain the speed would be >> supplied electrostatically rather than electromagnetically. >> >> Harry >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Michel Jullian >> Date: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:44 am >> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >> >>> Harry let me explain. Energy has to come from outside the system, >>> e.g. from >>> a filling station or from the electric mains socket. >>> >>> Tapping ambient EM radiations would work. If you aren't lucky >>> enough to live >>> at the foot of the Eiffel tower or similar powerful radioemitter >>> you could >>> have photovoltaic panels embedded in the car's body which would >>> tap the >>> ambient light in daytime (plus the streetlight's light in >>> nighttime if you >>> don't have a garage but that's negligible compared to the sun's >>> 1kW/m2 :) >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michel Jullian" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >>> >>> >>>> No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) >>>> >>>> Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the >>> right thing to >>>> do in a purely electric vehicle. >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Harry Veeder" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >>>> >>>> >>>>> hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel >>>>> and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. >>>>> >>>>> or no? >>>>> >>>>> Harry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Michel Jullian >>>>>> >>>>>>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. >>> It may >>>>>> have been done already actually. >>>>>> >>>>>> <><><><><><> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ >>>>>> ___________________________________________________ >>>>>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>>>>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>>>>> http://mail.netscape.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 13:12:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NKBf2q016521; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:11:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4NKBddj016498; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:11:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:11:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:10:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-reply-to: <175601c67c65$0d68a220$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <12QtTC.A.tBE.6x2cEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It works more like a sailing ship except the "wind" (in this case a charge difference) is always blowing in the direction you want to go. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > No I am afraid it wouldn't work, even with an initial push :) This would > only work if the car expended no power to maintain it's speed (which is not > the case), and if all efficiencies in the system were 100% (which is not the > case), otherwise each time you go round the closed power loop you loose > power, perpetual motion just doesn't work you know :/ > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:23 AM > Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid > > >> >> >> An initial push would be required (perhaps from a batery), but once >> the car was up to speed the power to maintain the speed would be >> supplied electrostatically rather than electromagnetically. >> >> Harry >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Michel Jullian >> Date: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:44 am >> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >> >>> Harry let me explain. Energy has to come from outside the system, >>> e.g. from >>> a filling station or from the electric mains socket. >>> >>> Tapping ambient EM radiations would work. If you aren't lucky >>> enough to live >>> at the foot of the Eiffel tower or similar powerful radioemitter >>> you could >>> have photovoltaic panels embedded in the car's body which would >>> tap the >>> ambient light in daytime (plus the streetlight's light in >>> nighttime if you >>> don't have a garage but that's negligible compared to the sun's >>> 1kW/m2 :) >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michel Jullian" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >>> >>> >>>> No :)) You seem very keen on perpetual motion systems Harry :) >>>> >>>> Good link, Terry. These motorized wheels definitely are the >>> right thing to >>>> do in a purely electric vehicle. >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Harry Veeder" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:31 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid >>>> >>>> >>>>> hmmmm....you could put an electrostatic motor in a wheel >>>>> and keep it charged by dragging a chain as the car moves. >>>>> >>>>> or no? >>>>> >>>>> Harry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Michel Jullian >>>>>> >>>>>>> Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and I believe they can even be located inside the wheels. >>> It may >>>>>> have been done already actually. >>>>>> >>>>>> <><><><><><> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ >>>>>> ___________________________________________________ >>>>>> Try the New Netscape Mail Today! >>>>>> Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List >>>>>> http://mail.netscape.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 19:37:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4O2b8Lx013513; Tue, 23 May 2006 19:37:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4O2b5Zn013484; Tue, 23 May 2006 19:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:37:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:36:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? In-reply-to: <00a801c67dd4$18897c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great idea. After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for alternative energy R&D? Harry Jones Beene wrote: > There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental > initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint > public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of > several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. But not > funded through the traditional and wasteful cost-plus system, > much-loved by our military ... Instead, the best ideas are > rewarded by a very large cash prize - and only for success. IOW > The X-Prize on steroids, part deux. Bump the value up to $50 > million and stand back. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 23 19:43:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4O2hG6n016401; Tue, 23 May 2006 19:43:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4O2hCgx016349; Tue, 23 May 2006 19:43:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:43:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:42:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is another idea.... A government could sell Alternative Energy Bonds to help finance alternative energy research and development. Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > Great idea. > > After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama > is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for > alternative energy R&D? > > Harry > > Jones Beene wrote: > >> There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental >> initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint >> public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of >> several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. But not >> funded through the traditional and wasteful cost-plus system, >> much-loved by our military ... Instead, the best ideas are >> rewarded by a very large cash prize - and only for success. IOW >> The X-Prize on steroids, part deux. Bump the value up to $50 >> million and stand back. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 00:40:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4O7duOE025331; Wed, 24 May 2006 00:39:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4O7dqYw025309; Wed, 24 May 2006 00:39:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:39:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060524073949200.30F5B8800083@mwinf3014.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060524073949.009a2b38@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:39:49 +0100 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4O7doL3025284 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:36 pm 23/05/2006 -0500, Harry wrote: >Great idea. > >After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama >is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for >alternative energy R&D? > >Harry > >Jones Beene wrote: > >> There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental >> initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint >> public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of >> several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. But not >> funded through the traditional and wasteful cost-plus system, >> much-loved by our military ... Instead, the best ideas are >> rewarded by a very large cash prize - and only for success. IOW >> The X-Prize on steroids, part deux. Bump the value up to $50 >> million and stand back. > That'll be a big incentive to work out the detailed thermodynamics of the "Spit on the Stove" OU engine. Trouble is the devil is in the detail and teacher wont give me marks until I show the workings of how I got to the right answer. She suspects I've been peeking at the answer book. 8-( Interestingly enough there's is a precedent for such a prize. ========================================================= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1864737.stm --------------------------------------------------------- Harrison radically re-thought his design and produced H4, a timekeeper that resembled a large pocket watch. It was a revelation. In six weeks, it was out by just five seconds; an accuracy three times better than that required to win the £20,000 prize. ========================================================= Interestingly enough for DV nuts, Harrison's O shaped watch suggest H2O - though it would have been more convincing if it had the H2 instead of the H4. Unfortunately, the H2 wasn't circular http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.355/setPaginate/No Cheers, Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 03:33:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OAX8Ln020932; Wed, 24 May 2006 03:33:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OAX6HS020899; Wed, 24 May 2006 03:33:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 03:33:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nCiWdQxEYCChubVeDRPR4fAm1kmOQdbIUmHOdmFnoT7KzO+2Hx2N4t0t0/ughOHR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006532410325210@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 04:32:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cacfd9cf74d5355e9da05d41b1ac2ef2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.68 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Grimer wrote> At 10:36 pm 23/05/2006 -0500, Harry wrote: >Great idea. > >After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama >is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for >alternative energy R&D? > >Harry > Instead of Bull try This. http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir/NEWWEB/Introduction.htm A 1982 study found that small businesses had 2.5 times as many innovations per employee as large businesses, while large businesses were nearly three times as likely to receive government assistance. As a result, the SBIR Program was established to provide funding to stimulate technological innovation in small businesses to meet federal agency research and development needs. After more than a decade, the STTR program was launched. The major difference is that STTR projects must involve substantial (at least 30%) cooperative research collaboration between the small business and a non-profit research institution. What are SBIR and STTR? Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) and Small Business Technology Transfer (STTR) are U.S. Government programs in which federal agencies with large research and development (R&D) budgets set aside a small fraction of their funding for competitions among small businesses only. Small businesses that win awards in these programs keep the rights to any technology developed and are encouraged to commercialize the technology. How much money is set aside? Each year, the federal agencies that participate in SBIR and STTR set aside 2.5% and 0.3%, respectively, of their extramural R&D budgets. For the DOE in FY 2005, these set-asides correspond to $102 million and $12 million, respectively. How do these programs work at DOE? Each year (typically around the beginning of October), DOE issues a solicitation inviting small businesses to apply for SBIR/STTR Phase I grants. It contains technical topics in such research areas as energy production (Fossil, Nuclear, Renewable, and Fusion Energy), Energy Use (in buildings, vehicles, and industry), fundamental energy sciences (materials, life, environmental, and computational sciences, and nuclear and high energy physics), Environmental Management, and Nuclear Nonproliferation. Grant applications submitted by small businesses MUST respond to a specific topic and subtopic during an open solicitation ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Grimer wrote>
 
At 10:36 pm 23/05/2006 -0500, Harry wrote:
>Great idea.
>
>After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama
>is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for
>alternative energy R&D?
>
>Harry
>
Instead of Bull try This.
 
 
A 1982 study found that small businesses had 2.5 times as many innovations per employee as large businesses, while large businesses were nearly three times as likely to receive government assistance.  As a result, the SBIR Program was established to provide funding to stimulate technological innovation in small businesses to meet federal agency research and development needs.  After more than a decade, the STTR program was launched.  The major difference is that STTR projects must involve substantial (at least 30%) cooperative research collaboration between the small business and a non-profit research institution.

What are SBIR and STTR?  Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) and Small Business Technology Transfer (STTR) are U.S. Government programs in which federal agencies with large research and development (R&D) budgets set aside a small fraction of their funding for competitions among small businesses only.  Small businesses that win awards in these programs keep the rights to any technology developed and are encouraged to commercialize the technology.

How much money is set aside?  Each year, the federal agencies that participate in SBIR and STTR set aside 2.5% and 0.3%, respectively, of their extramural R&D budgets.  For the DOE in FY 2005, these set-asides correspond to $102 million and $12 million, respectively.

How do these programs work at DOE?  Each year (typically around the beginning of October), DOE issues a solicitation inviting small businesses to apply for SBIR/STTR Phase I grants.  It contains technical topics in such research areas as energy production (Fossil, Nuclear, Renewable, and Fusion Energy), Energy Use (in buildings, vehicles, and industry), fundamental energy sciences (materials, life, environmental, and computational sciences, and nuclear and high energy physics), Environmental Management, and Nuclear Nonproliferation.  Grant applications submitted by small businesses MUST respond to a specific topic and subtopic during an open solicitation

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 04:36:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OBaGoO015064; Wed, 24 May 2006 04:36:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OBaEtV015045; Wed, 24 May 2006 04:36:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 04:36:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BM3k6tkdd29WTJObQgcJaKOAUIAqF1ueqVi8U8jV3kh7kXYhdMW9dPCm9Q/oKhln; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006532411368257@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 05:36:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d6f2f68037e5c957647919c50067541b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.88 Resent-Message-ID: <_Mpr0.A.BrD.uUEdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir/awards_abstracts/sbirsttr/cycle24/phase1/p1_award.htm FY 2006 PHASE I AWARDS BY TOPIC ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
FY 2006 PHASE I  AWARDS BY TOPIC
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 05:24:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OCOFcL003451; Wed, 24 May 2006 05:24:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OCOEKX003433; Wed, 24 May 2006 05:24:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 05:24:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jcCDuN1KV/Nn2OubiuMqF2uC3M21Hm0bYPouhOAYTeKNZGU/HDvAY9lm34gThlUc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006532412249630@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:24:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940874661d5de9431165e134a46031c6e0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.239 Resent-Message-ID: <9zz1lC.A.g1.tBFdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Pre-Solicitation Topics List: Is Vortex List Inc. going to submit a proposal? Team up with Clever Fellows Innovation Consortium Inc., or Wheels of Zeus, Inc. (wOz) and submit?? :-) http://www.zyn.com/sbir/doe06-topics.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/24/2006 5:36:05 AM Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir/awards_abstracts/sbirsttr/cycle24/phase1/p1_award.htm FY 2006 PHASE I AWARDS BY TOPIC ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Pre-Solicitation Topics List:
 
Is Vortex List Inc. going to submit a proposal?
 
Team up with Clever Fellows Innovation Consortium Inc.,
or Wheels of Zeus, Inc. (wOz) and submit??   :-)
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/24/2006 5:36:05 AM
Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ?

 
FY 2006 PHASE I  AWARDS BY TOPIC
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 06:24:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ODOJxv002616; Wed, 24 May 2006 06:24:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ODOGsY002573; Wed, 24 May 2006 06:24:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:24:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c67f35$50e3f9f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: diesel efficiency Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:23:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.greendieselcorp.com/page03.html This diesel fuel injector is claimed to reduce fuel consumption substantially. Frank Grimer might suspect that there are some beta-aether effects due to the applied pressure - 160 psi which is actually above the safe level for most steels. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 06:39:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ODcpw4010512; Wed, 24 May 2006 06:38:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ODcoRL010494; Wed, 24 May 2006 06:38:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:38:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014e01c67f37$600e0c20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <003001c67f35$50e3f9f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: diesel efficiency Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:38:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4ODclda010460 Resent-Message-ID: <3uyUBD.A.2jC.pHGdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, ordinary SCUBA tanks are made of run-of-the-mill steel AFAIK, and they safely stand 3000 psi. I guess thickness matters too. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: diesel efficiency > http://www.greendieselcorp.com/page03.html > > This diesel fuel injector is claimed to reduce fuel consumption > substantially. > > Frank Grimer might suspect that there are some beta-aether effects > due to the applied pressure - 160 psi which is actually above the > safe level for most steels. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 07:56:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OEteux018436; Wed, 24 May 2006 07:55:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OEtcai018411; Wed, 24 May 2006 07:55:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 07:55:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=oNuZOCYTGXkpRVbuLVk2sc3mRO5w4GdH8shOFCRF5HfvcbkRzVlCndJO7w4dcHcG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006532414552134@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:55:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94056ac7713a0653131ea61ea028f0dda02350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.78 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some basics on Nickel-Chromium oxidation covered here(50 page pdf) http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/Teaching/mat1b/courseB/BH1-BH9.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Some basics on Nickel-Chromium oxidation covered here(50 page pdf)
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 08:23:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OFNJ8R002741; Wed, 24 May 2006 08:23:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OFNHRF002713; Wed, 24 May 2006 08:23:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:23:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060524112219.03f623c8@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060524110945.03ce5978@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:22:56 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: An actual cold fusion recipe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Skeptics and others have long called for a cold fusion recipe, which I suppose would resemble a kitchen recipe: a short list of explicit instructions & ingredients. It should be noted that there is no short recipe for tokamak plasma fusion reactors or Boeing 747s. Be that as it may, yesterday I was preparing the ICCF-1 paper by Storms & Talcott, and in Table VII I came across an actual cookbook recipe, in the electrolyte ingredients. Several electrolyte variations were tested. Note the last one on this list: thio = thiourea added to electrolyte pe = current was passed through electrolyte using a Pt dummy electrode before Pd was used All cells after #70 contained stainless hypodermic needles Hg = mercury metal in electrolyte U = uranium metal in electrolyte WF = Whole wheat flour added The text explains: "The cathode in cell #98 was not pre-treated although 3.4 mg of wheat flour was placed in the electrolyte. Such large molecules are thought to inhibit the growth of surface dendrites. Indeed, the tritium production rate was decreased, production lasted for a longer time, and there were no bursts. However, attempts to duplicate this effect using other cells containing various amounts of wheat flour have failed." This paper will be available in the library soon. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:30:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OGU3Fo011886; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OGS7Ik010086; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:28:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:28:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c67f4e$fca7f480$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20060524073949.009a2b38@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: "Flash Steam" was: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:27:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Grimer" > That'll be a big incentive to work out the detailed > thermodynamics > of the "Spit on the Stove" OU engine. Trouble is the devil is in > the detail and teacher wont give me marks until I show the > workings > of how I got to the right answer. She suspects I've been peeking > at the answer book. FLASH!! Hot off the Stove-Press... OK. Here is an (almost mainstream) answer to how that "Spit on the Stove" (i.e. flash steam) engine can work, and nobody will suggest that it is cheating, since it is technically not OU ... but, dare I say "novel" ... perhaps so novel as to be fiction, even. But it sounds good on paper, and if it works for the enterprising vortexian - then I intend to claim a share of that big (but so-far: imaginary) prize ! 1) Start out with a very efficient, multi-fuel, low capacity 1000 psi steam boiler, preferably one that is fueled by ground up ag-waste or wood pellets. 2) Use a heat exchanger to heat incoming air from the exhaust, and a catalytic combustor to give a complete fuel-burn, and plenty of thermal insulation - and then, there should not be significant loss on that end (steam). You get a modest amount of 1000 psi steam, very efficiently, and still release some CO2 - but hopefully, if you can increase the net efficiency (using the flash technique below) from 25-30% to over 66% (which is doable in theory without OU being invoked, then there is a huge net reduction in carbon - compared to the ICE. [note] It could well be true that ZPE/Casimir is playing a significant role in this technique, but we need not broadcast that fact. For the record, let's just say we are going for highest possible hybrid combustion/conversion efficiency. The big downside for steam, traditionally, has been the need to carry lots of water - or else a gigantic condenser, if you want to recycle the water. By doubling the efficiency, which is accomplished by using the extra "jerk" inherent in flash steam (and this is arguably a ZPE/Casimir-enhanced advantage) and by downsizing the output - then heat-rejection is much less a problem, and the standard automotive radiator suffices. You can probably not expect more than at 10-20 kWh of electrical output however, with a single injector and Sterling resonator. Consequently the hybrid auto - with some level of batteries needs to be employed, but since you are getting more gain out of combustion than even the large power plant of the grid, you want to recharge those batteries using on-board energy !! and not off the grid. 3) The key to the next all-important step involves four overlapping [but proven] technologies for converting flash steam into electricity. Flash steam hasn't been used in this way in the past because we have been tied exclusively to this concept of using "pressure" instead of "speed." First off, as to what makes steam "flash" (this is a term of art) - it is the sonic boom excursion, at a nozzle, into supersonic-speed. This "flash" (which is extraordinarily loud and disruptive, and very stressful to metal) explains why flash-steam is limited to being a small-output method, which does not scale-up well. It has advantages at the several kilowatt level, but not at the megawatt level. Metallurgy just cannot stand up to demands of high output continuous flashing. Here is the general idea: a) flash steam, with some argon carrier gas, is pulse injected at ultrasonic frequency, into a thermoacoustic resonator. http://www.flashsteam.com/Basics.htm b) thermoacoustic conversion of that kinetic energy in a Sterling-type thermoacoustic chamber (35 % efficient) gives most of the output. c) at the point of injection, the center pin of the injector is given a high current electric pulse to coincide with the pressure pulse (at ultrasonic frequency). This gives the Armstrong Steam Electricity effect. http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/article.htm d) The resonator diaphragm of the thermoacoustic device is a two electrode affair, using two separated "multipactor" disk electrodes which convert the steam-carried-charge into AC at the RF frequency of the ultrasound. This is expected to give an additional 25% net efficiency (some of the power is recycled). Bottom line total efficiency of 60% (or hopefully more)... IF... In going from a stationary voltage of about 12 volts, at the injector, to a "ballistic" voltage, there is the expected inherent (but normally conservative) gain, usually up to about 60 volts, and usually at the expense of current - using the transformer analogy. However, in this case, since the steam velocity 9and jerk) is providing the "alternative EMF" to lower the cathode potential, there could "conceivably" be what seems like a non-conservative voltage gain, but in the overall picture, the net gain is conservative, but high efficiency. Let me explain. Admittedly the last part of this complicated hybrid system is what needs to be tested. We know anecdotally that there is this so-called "ballistic" gain with cathode electrons when the space charge is eliminated from the vicinity of a thermionic cathode (often accomplished in radio triode tubes via a charged grid) ... but we know that this feature is normally conservative (actually inefficient, as it usually demands a heated cathode plus grid losses) but when the heat at the cathode is already "sunk" [being accounted for] on the thermoacoustic side, and when the "shear" of kinetic steam acts just like a triode grid except the losses become gains [in eliminating the space charge and in increased acceleration]- then the second stage of the process is effectively "free" of additional energy input... yet very gainful. That is, for the purpose of providing an alternative EMF to push the electrons into a ballistic mode - the steam cost - has already been sunk into the first stage conversion 9thermoacoustic-sterling), plus there is some actual ionization which may help. Plus the argon may play a role 9as it does in sonofusion). All-in-all, this is a concept 'begging' for the Alt-NRG X-prize, so that a visionary gambler or VC will take at shot at investing in it. It is admittedly high risk and complicated. Not to mention that the author of the concept has a withheld a few details and enhancements, pending that Prize being announced ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:43:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OGJCYB002552; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:19:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OGJ8iD002471; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:19:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:19:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060524161904373.5B4161C000B7@mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060524161905.00b050ac@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:19:05 +0100 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:32 am 24/05/2006 -0600, Fred wrote: >Grimer wrote> > >At 10:36 pm 23/05/2006 -0500, Harry wrote: >>Great idea. >> >>After all if the US government can place a $25 million bounty on Osama >>is it unreasonable to have the US government offer a $50 million prize for >>alternative energy R&D? >> >>Harry (Grimer's reply snipped) > Instead of Bull try This. But, Fred, I like "Bull". I was brought up on it. 8-) It's not for nothing that, in France, the English are called Rost-Biff. Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 09:51:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OGogwF024246; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:50:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OGoelD024213; Wed, 24 May 2006 09:50:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:50:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060524124903.03d47ae0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:50:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: An actual cold fusion recipe In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060524112219.03f623c8@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060524112219.03f623c8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7756718==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_7756718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The paper is here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEastudyofel.pdf Storms, E. and C.L. Talcott. A Study of Electrolytic Tritium Production. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. Please contact me directly if you have difficulty displaying or printing Table VII. - Jed --=====================_7756718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The paper is here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEastudyofel.pdf

Storms, E. and C.L. Talcott. A Study of Electrolytic Tritium Production. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.

Please contact me directly if you have difficulty displaying or printing Table VII.

- Jed
--=====================_7756718==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 11:09:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OI8wHr030528; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:08:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OI8u86030508; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:08:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:08:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:08:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 19, 2006 In-reply-to: <410-2200656204310420@ix.netcom.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Forward from aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > >> [Original Message] >> From: What's New > To: > Date: 5/19/2006 1:36:40 PM > Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 19, 2006 > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 19 May 06 Washington, DC > 3. BREAKTHROUGH PROPULSION: MOVING THE ROCKET'S CENTER OF MASS. > It was the goal of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Institute, > http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN97/wn081597.html . Propulsion > without a propellant. BPI never quite made it. It was some > problem with Newton's Laws of Motion I think -- the center of > mass just wouldn't budge. Maybe they gave up too soon. A > history professor at California State U., Fullerton, James > Woodward, unveiled his research into "Mach-Lorentz thrusters" at > the Future in Review conference in Coronado, CA on Wednesday. > It's like the impulse engines in Star Trek. "They put out thrust > without blowing stuff out the tailpipe," Woodward said. IMO, it is more sensible to regard natural forces as a kind of propellantless-acceleration, rather than as action-at-a-distance. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 11:14:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OIDrXq001042; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:13:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OIDqZ1001023; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:13:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:13:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:13:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060519154128.03e465a0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> 2. The incredibly efficient transmission design. > > By the way, this transmission would not work without the electric > motor. It depends upon the high torque produced by electric motors at > low speed. > > I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors > coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That > design would do away with the need for a transmission and > differential. You would have to trust the computer to keep the car on > the straight and narrow! > > Electric motors can be coupled directly to wheels, can't they? I > believe they operate through the full range of speeds on electric > railroads without gears. > > - Jed > > I think the Martian rovers Spirit and Opportunity have such wheels. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:21:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OJLeY8001050; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:21:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OJLbW9001016; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:21:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:21:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4474B234.7030405@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:21:24 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The social impact of cold fusion is up to us to decide References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060517092334.03cdad80@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060517165304.03e13c90@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060518123029.03d36638@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060518123029.03d36638@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> Of course some disruption is inevitable, and jobs will be lost, but >> that can easily be balanced by social improvements and new jobs. But >> we have to decide that is how things will be. We have to make >> decisions, set policies and allocate money. > > I realize that such decisions and policies sometimes interfere with the > mechanisms of pure free-market capitalism, and this reduces efficiency. > If economic theory is correct, cold fusion technology would be > propagated at the fastest possible rate if we allow Ayn Rand style > capitalism a free hand to destroy jobs and disrupt society. I disagree with this assessment. Monopolies are a natural consequence of unbridled capitalism and they can have every bit as strong a restraining influence on progress and dissemination of new ideas as any government. Economic theory of monopolies also includes cartels and everybody's favorite, the Trade Unions. Neither of these tends to push for rapid progress on all fronts, and yet neither is the result of government intervention, either. They're both just the result of "natural" economic forces. And when businesses band together to resist the trade unions, they're attempting to exercise monopsony power, which, depending on how it's used, can also cause problems with economic development. Everybody knows that Ayn Rand's notions fail to provide a sensible plan for providing lighthouses (the classic example of a public good for which one can't easily charge a toll). However, there are a number of far less obvious issues which are left out of libertarianism, too. Healthy competition and rapid propagation of new ideas both seem to require a little input from an Uberorganization ... i.e., a government ... which doesn't have a big vested interest in continuing to do things the Way We Already Do. Monopolies, which can happen naturally, can't fill that roll. > This might > also bring in the most monetary profit. Capitalism is essential, after > all. But it is not the only essential institution, and society is not > one-dimensional. If we must slow down the commercialization of cold > fusion slightly, and reduce profit somewhat in order to preserve a > measure of social stability and happiness, we should. It is worth the > trade-off. > > Anyway, at this stage, capitalism has done nothing to develop cold > fusion, so it is not the be-all end-all solution to all problems. So > far, all progress in cold fusion has been made by academic professors > who are is far removed from capitalist competitive pressure as anyone > can be. Many other essential breakthroughs have come from outside the > economic system. The Wrights, for example, gave no thought to profit > when they invented the airplane. They thought it would never pay. They > acted purely out of curiosity and the love of learning. > > The people have developed the Internet had no thought of profit, and > they never made one extra dollar from their work. They were all > government employed programmers, doing their job at published government > salary levels. These salaries are generous but they include no extra > incentive payment, even though the Internet is one of the most important > technologies in history. > > The laws of economics are constraints, similar to the laws that govern > structural engineering. If you ignore the laws of structural > engineering, your buildings will collapse. But within the constraints > these laws define, you can create an enormous variety of different > structures. Some structures, such as an airplane hangar, will make > extraordinarily efficient use of the materials to cover the largest > possible area. Other structures, such as a Victorian house, will waste a > lot of materials to produce a charming effect. Some economic structures > produce fantastic profits in a short time, such as WallMart superstores. > Others are inefficient and wasteful, such as Japanese mom-and-pop retail > stores. But these small stores take care of many people and they enliven > neighborhoods and make life more pleasant. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:43:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OJgwww011496; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:42:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OJguSt011468; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:42:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:42:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4474B735.5060006@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:42:45 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution References: <017a01c67df1$389cd370$98df163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <017a01c67df1$389cd370$98df163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >> from the story you quote: >>> President Bush's administration goal is to replace 75 percent of >>> the United States' Middle East oil imports with alternative fuels by >>> 2025. >> >> So what does that mean to you? Anyone else here care to comment? > > Well, I'll answer that, sarcastically as always of course. My faith in > anything that El Presidente Bush has to say has dwindled to a record > low, as has his popularity amongst most Americans, it seems. I also find > the statement "75 percent of...Middle East oil imports" a bit fishy. > AFAIK, we import most of our oil from other regions than the middle > east....can anyone comment on this? If that is indeed the case, then it > would amount to cutting 75 percent of XX percent of our total imports of > oil. So what does that help? Not a damned thing, in my opinion. > > 1. We will still be burning oil without seriously looking into something > else. > 2. The supply of oil will remain (relatively) constant, insofar as if we > import only from say South American fields, In case nobody's noticed, things are hotting up in South America too. Morale's nationalization of Bolivia's oil fields is surely just the opening gambit. I dare say the rulers of Central and South America are quite familiar with the notion of Peak Oil... > the Middle Easterners will > just sell to someone else. Doesn't really do much to combat the amounts > of money flowing to terrorism from oil exports, does it? > > So I am very skeptical of this. And just about anything else the Bush > (or any other recent) administration has to say. > > --Kyle > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 12:47:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OJlOsC013599; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:47:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OJlLDQ013577; Wed, 24 May 2006 12:47:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:47:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HPoTlhUU+V/SkycrWtOmhnmJCzCAkXI3tCghMDl3qPl/vrYOImSTrLyQJRIQF8on; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006532419477110@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: FLASH Pyrolysis was..... Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:47:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403d7b31fcdbb28656b3114919494dd424350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.163 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This was done by Jim Diebold at SERI (now NREL) in the 80s. His dad was a local farmer and USDA regional chief. This can be done by dragging a toothpick or matchstick across a red hot surface. Mostly Ethylene gas comes off leaving the liquid as a trail on the heated plate. Or you can shoot corn kernals into a heated cylinder so they whiz around the inside periphery. Argon gas is is used for dilution to prevent polyethylene formation. We did it with dry Cow Dung too. Picture that. :-) Fred http://public.cranfield.ac.uk/soe/c4372/Daniels%20Kleesons%20CD/Articles/Fuel%20Oil%20Quality%20of%20Biomass%20Pyrolysis%20Oils-State%20of%20the%20Art%20.pdf "Fuel Oil Quality of Biomass Pyrolysis Oils State of the Art for the End Users" (5) Diebold, J.; Scahill, J. Production of Primary Pyrolysis Oils in a Vortex reactor. In Pyrolysis Oils from Biomass: Producing, Analyzing, and Upgrading; Soltes, E. J, Milne, T. A., Eds.; ACS Symposium Series 376, ACS, Washington, D. C. 1988; pp 31-40. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This was done by Jim Diebold at SERI (now NREL) in the 80s.
His dad was a local farmer and USDA regional chief.
This can be done by dragging a toothpick or matchstick across
a red hot surface.
Mostly Ethylene gas comes off leaving the liquid as a trail on the heated plate.
Or you can shoot corn kernals into a heated cylinder so they whiz around
the inside periphery.
 
Argon gas is is used for dilution to prevent polyethylene formation.
 
We did it with dry Cow Dung too. Picture that.   :-)
 
Fred
 
 

"Fuel Oil Quality of Biomass Pyrolysis Oils State of the Art for the End Users"

(5) Diebold, J.; Scahill, J. Production of Primary Pyrolysis Oils in a

Vortex reactor. In Pyrolysis Oils from Biomass: Producing, Analyzing,

and Upgrading; Soltes, E. J, Milne, T. A., Eds.; ACS Symposium Series

376, ACS, Washington, D. C. 1988; pp 31-40.

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 15:26:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OMQQbv025035; Wed, 24 May 2006 15:26:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OMQNgR025012; Wed, 24 May 2006 15:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:26:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003901c67f81$104fc5d0$68ca163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <017a01c67df1$389cd370$98df163f@DFBGQZ91> <4474B735.5060006@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:26:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > In case nobody's noticed, things are hotting up in South America too. > Morale's nationalization of Bolivia's oil fields is surely just the > opening gambit. > > I dare say the rulers of Central and South America are quite familiar with > the notion of Peak Oil... True. Just to clarify when I said the oil will remain "relatively constant" I didn't mean as far as what is left in the ground, which is obviously finite. I just meant that all cutting some fraction of middle eastern imports will likely do under Bush's plan is just shift that percentage towards oil imported from somewhere else, that is, our import remains relatively constant. In short, I don't trust what he is saying. But that's just me. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 15:30:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OMU3Mq026972; Wed, 24 May 2006 15:30:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OMLcY5022719; Wed, 24 May 2006 15:21:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:21:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c67f80$64175530$68ca163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:21:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors >> coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That >> design would do away with the need for a transmission and >> differential. You would have to trust the computer to keep the car on >> the straight and narrow! I for one believe that a law should forbid using computer-controlled individual motors driving each wheel. Drawing from experience of faulty ABS systems locking or rapid-fading brakes at highway speeds makes me shudder at the thought of what an independant-motor system could do should the ECU become confused. And ECU's are ALWAYS getting confused, especially in areas with climactic extremes (i.e., western New York). According to statistics I read, newer computer controlled cars are more reliable and easier to maintain than older, mechanically controlled vehicles. As a mechanic, who actually has to deal with this every day for 8 1/2 hours, I can tell you this is not true. Believe what you want, but I am telling you how it actually is. Side note, we replaced a headlight bulb for a BMW 325i today. Bulb price alone, $120+. For a LIGHT BULB. Why? It auto-dims for 'safety.' With each day that goes by that I see "state of the art" automotive technology, my faith in the current auto-trend is shaken a bit more. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 18:01:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P10rOx021330; Wed, 24 May 2006 18:00:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P10p6N021313; Wed, 24 May 2006 18:00:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:00:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001901c67f96$a5ac9210$0d037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Pulsars animation view double vortex emissions Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:00:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67F6C.BC563680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67F6C.BC563680 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67F6C.BC563680" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67F6C.BC563680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts.. Interesting artists conceptual view and animation of a pulsar " eating " = a meal. Perhaps ESA has a better grasp of vortex phenomena than NASA. = hmmm http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMWSAA5QCE_index_0.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67F6C.BC563680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts..
 
Interesting artists conceptual view and animation of a pulsar " = eating " a=20 meal. Perhaps ESA has a better grasp of  vortex phenomena than = NASA. =20 hmmm
 
http://www.esa= .int/esaCP/SEMWSAA5QCE_index_0.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C67F6C.BC563680-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67F6C.BC563680 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c67f96$a5290a30$0d037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C67F6C.BC563680-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 18:20:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P1KAXl028319; Wed, 24 May 2006 18:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P1K9Sx028297; Wed, 24 May 2006 18:20:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:20:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002a01c67f99$58cb4c40$0d037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Energy Secretary Sees Fusion as Part of Solution Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 20:19:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C67F6F.57F96F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C67F6F.57F96F60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C67F6F.57F96F60" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C67F6F.57F96F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStephen wrote.. In case nobody's noticed, things are hotting up in South America too.=20 > Morale's nationalization of Bolivia's oil fields is surely just the=20 > opening gambit. > > I dare say the rulers of Central and South America are quite familiar = with=20 > the notion of Peak Oil... Howdy Stephen, The natural gas reserves of Bolivia are huge, the largest in South = America. Brazil needs the gas. Venezuela is fishing in troubled waters. = Stir up with a brand of South American politics, add the US state dept, = the CIA and a few disgruntled major oil companies that feel they were " = stiffed" and a very unsettling scenario can unfold. Supposedly cool = heads in Brazil are working to keep a calm because it benefits South = America. Unfortunately, it doesn't benefit " big oil" because they cannot control = this gas market. The game of big oil is profit. Nothing else matters. Should the US Energy Secretary so choose, he could make mention of the = promise of Cold Fusion and it would instantly change the world playing = field. This is why he is not going to mention CF. It will finally leak = out , perhaps by the French. The " scramble" begins thereafter. I see a insane feeding frenzy when the CF event bursts upon the world = scene. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C67F6F.57F96F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Stephen wrote..
 
 In case nobody's noticed, things are hotting up in South = America too.=20
> Morale's nationalization of Bolivia's oil fields is surely just = the=20
> opening gambit.
>
> I dare say the rulers of = Central and=20 South America are quite familiar with
> the notion of Peak=20 Oil...

Howdy Stephen,
 
The natural gas reserves of Bolivia are huge, the largest in South=20 America.  Brazil needs the gas. Venezuela is fishing in troubled = waters.=20 Stir up with a brand of South American politics, add the US state dept, = the CIA=20 and a few disgruntled major oil companies that feel they were " stiffed" = and a=20 very unsettling scenario can unfold. Supposedly cool heads in Brazil are = working=20 to keep a calm because it benefits South America.
Unfortunately, it doesn't benefit " big oil" because they cannot = control=20 this gas market. The game of big oil is profit. Nothing else = matters.
 
Should the US Energy Secretary so choose, he could make mention of = the=20 promise of Cold Fusion and it would instantly change the world playing = field.=20 This is why he is not going to mention CF. It will finally leak out , = perhaps by=20 the French. The " scramble" begins thereafter.
 
I see a insane feeding frenzy when the CF  event bursts upon = the world=20 scene.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C67F6F.57F96F60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C67F6F.57F96F60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c67f99$40cc6a20$0d037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C67F6F.57F96F60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 11:40:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4OIeT5X013480; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:40:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4OIeSEO013470; Wed, 24 May 2006 11:40:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 11:40:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c67f61$7e03c790$0202a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> Reply-To: From: To: References: <410-22006532411368257@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 12:40:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: Google: High Energy Density Physics http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&c2coff=1&q=High+Energy+Density+Physics&btnG=Search TOPIC: HIGH ENERGY DENSITY PHYSICS FOR INERTIAL FUSION ENERGY High energy density physics (HEDP) has been identified by the Department of Energy as a primary area of research in fusion energy. Computer simulation is a main tool for studying HEDP, but all current codes lack either some physics required for complete modeling or computational techniques necessary for high-performance computing. This project will improve an existing parallel code framework by implementing the necessary physical models into it, so that numerical investigations can be performed leading to a better understanding of HEDP. = = = Everywhere you look .. There are potential solutions to many of the Technical problems facing the World today. Selected Topics from "Alt-NRG X Prizes = = = STTR Project RBR@Vision Research Institute: 28 Lake Ridge Club Drive Gas Technology Institute (GTI) Burr Ridge, IL 60527-7937 Project: H2 Production from Coal, Using Syn-Gas Depolarized Steam Membranes This project will develop a membrane technology that could reduce the cost of making hydrogen from coal by 25%. Lowering the cost of hydrogen should accelerate its use as a source of energy and thereby reduce U.S. dependence on imported oil, and environmental pollution. = = = TOPIC: ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES AND MATERIALS FOR FUSION ENERGY SYSTEMS HyPerComp, Inc. Development of a Virtual Simulation 31255 Cedar Valley Drive Environment for Test Blanket Modules Suite 327 Westlake Village, CA 91362-7140 The development of a virtual computing environment will cut down dramatically the huge risk and expense involved in laboratory testing of power extraction equipment for proposed fusion reactor concepts. It holds critical enabling potential for efficient thermal management of fusion energy systems, and paves the way for their safe, reliable, economic, and environmentally benign operation. Plasma Processes, Inc. Tungsten Alloy Divertor Concept With Helium 4914 Moores Mill Road Jet Cooling Huntsville, AL 35811 Advanced helium cooled tungsten alloy heat exchangers will be developed for use in fusion energy reactors. SupraMagnetics, Inc. Novel Low-Cost Method of Manufacturing 125 South End Road Nb3Sn Multifilamentary Superconductors Southington, CT 06489-3959 With Multiple-Tin-Tube Sources A new economical superconductor will be developed for high field magnets utilized in high energy physics research, fusion machines, and magnetic resonance imaging and nuclear magnetic resonance instruments for the general benefit of the public. = = = TOPIC: ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES FOR NUCLEAR ENERGY Analysis and Measurement Services On-Line Monitoring of Accuracy and Corporation Reliability of Instrumentation and Health of AMS 9111 Cross Park Driver Nuclear Power Plants Building A-100 Knoxville, TN 37923-4506 This project will yield technologies to optimize the operational safety and economy of nuclear power plants. It will also provide the foundation for new technology to be used in the design of process instrumentation systems for the next generation of reactors. Archimedes Technology Group Advanced Technologies for Nuclear Energy Holdings, LLC 5660 Eastgate Drive San Diego, CA 92121-2816 The proprietary plasma mass separator technology is the result of eight years and $100 million of private sector research and development. The Phase I plan is to use an existing full-scale plasma mass separator to test non-radioactive waste surrogates in order to evaluate the feasibility for mass separation of the UREX raffinate and solids materials. The results of this evaluation could point to optimization or re-configuration of the existing massseparator. The technology represents a significant opportunity for cost savings and reduced environmental impact for spent nuclear fuel reprocessing and cleanup of Department of Energy defense wastes. Luna Innovations Incorporated Real-Time Fiber Optic Neutron Spectrometer 2851 Commerce Street Blacksburg, VA 24060-6657 The proposed technology will provide real-time health monitoring of nuclear reactors, thereby improving reactor safety, lowering operational costs, and minimizing down time. The need for nuclear power is expected to increase as electric vehicles demand more power generation, and dependence on foreign oil and environmentally-destructive fuels become more undesirable. = = = TechDrive, Inc. Rational Design and Synthesis of Novel 3255 S. Dearborn Street Microporous Materials for Hydrogen Storage Suite 320 Chicago, IL 60616-3793 This project will develop advanced sorption materials that can be used to store hydrogen in fuel cells for powering vehicles, ships, and portable industrial machinery fomerly powered by fossil fuels. Benefits include reduced air pollution and lower U.S. dependence on foreign oil. = = = Wright Materials Research Company High-Temperature High-Pressure Seals Made 1187 Richfield Center from a Novel Polymer System Beavercreek, OH 45430-1120 The development of geothermal energy is aimed toward deeper wells and industrial processing equipment operated at higher temperatures. New sealing materials are needed to operate machines at these increased temperature and pressure conditions. This project will develop high-temperature high-pressure seals to satisfy the needs. = = = AIL Research, Inc. Solar Desalination Technology for Mid-Sized P.O. Box 3662 Applications 50 Washington Road Princeton, NJ 08543-3662 To meet the growing demand for freshwater, communities are increasingly relying on large-scale desalination plants. Unfortunately, the source of energy to run these plants is almost always fossil fuels. The proposed work will apply low-cost plastic heat exchangers to develop a desalination technology that can be economically competitive with fossil-fuel based system, but which runs primarily on solar energy. = = = AIL Research, Inc. A Low-Energy Low-Cost Process for P.O. Box 3662 Stripping Carbon Dioxide from 50 Washington Road Absorbents Princeton, NJ 08543-3662 If CO2 could be scrubbed from the flue gas of power plants and safely sequestered, the country's most important source of electricity-fossil-fired power plants-could operate without emitting significant amounts of greenhouse gases. The proposed work will make CO2 scrubbers a much more affordable technology than they are today.= = = STTR Project GreenWood Resources, Inc. Research Institute: 121 SW Salmon Street Washington State University Suite 1020 Portland, OR 97204 Project: Improved Carbon Sequestration with Biofuels Production in Managed Hyrbid Poplar Farms Hybrid poplar is the fastest growing tree in the temperate zone that is uniquely suited to providing a multiplicity of environmental benefits, energy feedstock, and forest products. This research will develop the technology to breed a new class of elite hybrids that sequester increased amounts of carbon under the sustainable management of poplar farms for energy feedstock and traditional wood products. = = = ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir/awards_abstracts/sbirsttr/cycle24/phase1/p1_award.htm FY 2006 PHASE I AWARDS BY TOPIC From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 19:21:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P2LCs5020604; Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P2LAuZ020588; Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 19:21:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=l1jeHa/aDj4ZIyNdoi5HqzFme5cLWElVnBvq1V4t7qZpy9B3LVOHXdigltNJ4bOz5FgbCFfQXvPqdwQT/dubVvHw30t8x7CJzzcZ3t5I0kfNpYIclq5bwfCcIjyNyICZAt/7HoPwtRQuaVEBCkwI5Aj7laqFbWdbol0hduq5sUQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 22:21:06 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Home Power Hybrid In-Reply-To: <002801c67f80$64175530$68ca163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50209_13518702.1148523666452" References: <002801c67f80$64175530$68ca163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_50209_13518702.1148523666452 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline please forgive my dyslexia and lack or correct spelling and grammar--- General reply: (A) ABS can be realized via centrifugal systems. [1] Please let me know where this cannot be realized. ==================== (B) Many mechanical systems have flaws. Hard metals and correct lubrication and appropriate mechanical systems have survived in many if not all """crude"" systems. (C) There are many eaxmples that will and.... later MAY .... server humans .... in and of many venues (to be polite}---> We wish to please know of persons or small groups and/or entities not well described -----> Z) In general ""free NRG:"" may obtain..... Thermal differentials all are free. Energy from "not well known" although extant sources are adequate" Hmmm............? On 5/24/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > >> I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors > >> coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That > >> design would do away with the need for a transmission and > >> differential. You would have to trust the computer to keep the car on > >> the straight and narrow! > > I for one believe that a law should forbid using computer-controlled > individual motors driving each wheel. Drawing from experience of faulty > ABS > systems locking or rapid-fading brakes at highway speeds makes me shudder > at > the thought of what an independant-motor system could do should the ECU > become confused. And ECU's are ALWAYS getting confused, especially in > areas > with climactic extremes (i.e., western New York). According to statistics > I > read, newer computer controlled cars are more reliable and easier to > maintain than older, mechanically controlled vehicles. As a mechanic, who > actually has to deal with this every day for 8 1/2 hours, I can tell you > this is not true. Believe what you want, but I am telling you how it > actually is. > > Side note, we replaced a headlight bulb for a BMW 325i today. Bulb price > alone, $120+. For a LIGHT BULB. Why? It auto-dims for 'safety.' With each > day that goes by that I see "state of the art" automotive technology, my > faith in the current auto-trend is shaken a bit more. > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_50209_13518702.1148523666452 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
please forgive my dyslexia and lack or correct spelling and grammar---
 
General reply:
 
(A)   ABS can be realized via centrifugal systems.
 
   [1]  Please let me know where this cannot be realized.
 
 
====================
 
 
 (B)
 
    Many mechanical systems have flaws.    Hard metals and correct lubrication and appropriate mechanical systems have survived in many if not all """crude""  systems.   
 
 (C)
 
     There are many eaxmples that will and.... later MAY .... server humans   ....  in and of many venues  (to be polite}--->
 
        We wish to please know of persons or small groups and/or entities not well described ----->
 
        Z) 
 
      In general ""free NRG:""  may obtain.....
      Thermal differentials all are free.
      Energy from   "not well known"  although extant sources are adequate"
 
         Hmmm............?
 
 
 
 


 
On 5/24/06, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
>> I suppose that a fully electric vehicle with four independent motors
>> coupled directly to the wheels might be even more efficient. That
>> design would do away with the need for a transmission and
>> differential. You would have to trust the computer to keep the car on
>> the straight and narrow!

I for one believe that a law should forbid using computer-controlled
individual motors driving each wheel. Drawing from experience of faulty ABS
systems locking or rapid-fading brakes at highway speeds makes me shudder at
the thought of what an independant-motor system could do should the ECU
become confused. And ECU's are ALWAYS getting confused, especially in areas
with climactic extremes (i.e., western New York). According to statistics I
read, newer computer controlled cars are more reliable and easier to
maintain than older, mechanically controlled vehicles. As a mechanic, who
actually has to deal with this every day for 8 1/2 hours, I can tell you
this is not true. Believe what you want, but I am telling you how it
actually is.

Side note, we replaced a headlight bulb for a BMW 325i today. Bulb price
alone, $120+. For a LIGHT BULB. Why? It auto-dims for 'safety.' With each
day that goes by that I see "state of the art" automotive technology, my
faith in the current auto-trend is shaken a bit more.

--Kyle


------=_Part_50209_13518702.1148523666452-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 21:21:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P4KmYN007799; Wed, 24 May 2006 21:20:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P4KkCI007783; Wed, 24 May 2006 21:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:20:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 00:20:57 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Here's one. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Thu, 25 May 2006 00:21:11 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Thu, 25 May 2006 00:21:14 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Here's one. Jones Beene wrote somewhere, sometime: > There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental > initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint > public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of > several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. But not > funded through the traditional and wasteful cost-plus system, > much-loved by our military ... Instead, the best ideas are > rewarded by a very large cash prize - and only for success. IOW > The X-Prize on steroids, part deux. Bump the value up to $50 > million and stand back. ... The $10 million Ansari X Prize was primarily a publicity gimmick for the winner (Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites) since it neither paid for the development of the launch system nor did the vehicle itself get within a fraction of Earth orbit (minimum 200 km altitude at 8 km/s; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Earth_orbit). Instead it got up to just over 100 kilometers; the so-called "boundary of space". Getting their vehicle to orbit would have required 30 times more energy. All this using variations on known technology. BUT!! If you are looking for a prize for new energy developments -- or anything -- based on new physics, may I suggest the James Randi Educational Foundation's One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. When I queried JREF about the eligibility of "cold fusion"-type phenomena, Mr. Randi himself responded in the affirmative. "Perpetual motion" machines have also long been accepted. No challenger has even made it to formal testing. The nice thing about this is: You don't even have to have a practical device. Just show with some experiment that you are clearly violating accepted physics -- probably harder than you think! -- and the prize and glory are yours. Of course, convincing yourself and your witnesses (see the Challenge rules) as well as Mr. Randi's representatives that you really have something isn't scientific proof of anything. But the publicity would certainly attract industrial backing for further exploration and development. (Or you might find that you had simply fooled yourself and some other people for a while. Either way the scoffers would have an opportunity to work themselves up into a high dudgeon; always fun.) Link for the Challenge: http://www.randi.org/research/ Email queries: challenge@randi.org Some critiques of the Challenge are noted at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation Please read the Challenge rules carefully before you contact JREF. -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 24 23:03:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P62oLM021222; Wed, 24 May 2006 23:02:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P62lxZ021189; Wed, 24 May 2006 23:02:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 23:02:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 02:02:59 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Here's one. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Thu, 25 May 2006 02:03:21 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Thu, 25 May 2006 02:03:21 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Email queries: challenge AT randi DOT org "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies." -- Oliver Goldsmith, Irish playwright 1728-1774 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 01:03:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4P83Zm0004641; Thu, 25 May 2006 01:03:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4P83XZj004625; Thu, 25 May 2006 01:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 01:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A1qiH9TCyPYZ1VTbMeJHAYaDL1rLttOEbWUIQxGgKXlFBiTLXXaKdD1t7Ps20jC8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200654258324542@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 02:03:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940333bfd4eff6391c87282f329490ed9de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.226 Resent-Message-ID: <2gy7nC.A.NIB.VTWdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES: FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf 5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals 5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table 5 2 Kmetlc bamers 5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces 5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon Electrochemical Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors): http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Joe Cell: http://www.thejoecell.com/ ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES:

FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS

 
5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals

5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table

5 2 Kmetlc bamers

5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces

5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon

 

Electrochemical  Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors):

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm

Otto and Diesel Cycles:

http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm

The Joe Cell:

http://www.thejoecell.com/

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 04:24:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PBOI2q021651; Thu, 25 May 2006 04:24:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PBOH48021640; Thu, 25 May 2006 04:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 04:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mxYTYQaNiPdbMOBfo32Eic8SHtHDgsAvs525ypUbuFCP5CJ2U4pbCaDvHbM82RI1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006542511249424@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 05:24:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ab3e9efd23689157ed1b40a0c17df43d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to Klein's fans, he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of water". Figuring 25 miles/gallon running on gasoline only, his modified vehicle was getting the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline (~115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule) per ounce of water. The best water electrolyzers require 25 Kilowatt-hours/LB or 25/16 = 1.56 Kilowatt-hours per Ounce. Assuming regular electrolysis energy input, recombination of one ounce 454/16 =28.37 grams of H2O from H and OH should yield 1.56 Kw-hr (5.6E6 joule). IOW. a Free Energy benefit of 1.2E8/5.6E6 = 21.5 from somewhere? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/25/2006 2:04:12 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES: FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf 5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals 5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table 5 2 Kmetlc bamers 5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces 5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon Electrochemical Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors): http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Joe Cell: http://www.thejoecell.com/ ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
According to Klein's fans, he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of water".
Figuring 25 miles/gallon running on gasoline only, his modified vehicle
was getting the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline (~115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule) per ounce of water.
 
The best water electrolyzers require 25 Kilowatt-hours/LB
or 25/16 = 1.56 Kilowatt-hours per Ounce.
Assuming regular electrolysis energy input, recombination of  one
ounce 454/16 =28.37 grams of H2O from H and OH should
yield  1.56 Kw-hr  (5.6E6 joule).
 
IOW. a Free Energy benefit of 1.2E8/5.6E6 = 21.5 from somewhere?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/25/2006 2:04:12 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES:

FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS

 
5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals

5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table

5 2 Kmetlc bamers

5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces

5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon

 

Electrochemical  Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors):

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm

Otto and Diesel Cycles:

http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm

The Joe Cell:

http://www.thejoecell.com/

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 06:49:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PDnNae022825; Thu, 25 May 2006 06:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PDnLCB022805; Thu, 25 May 2006 06:49:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 06:49:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aVR8jWBTjOU5ku8r2u6NF4C5Tdnc9h3Rs14aSemt6rHolO/4lJFm/16gwCC8owep; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065425134914289@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:49:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b117926093c68e5230dcbf2da177d459350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.70 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent in a 2 hour (7200 second) "50 mph 100 mile trip" it begs the question of how much free "auto-electrolysis" would be occurring in the 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine combustion process. 4.8E8/[7200*4.0E-19] = 1.66E23/6.25E18 = 26,666 ampere-seconds 26,666/4000 =6.66 amperes per square centimeter with 12 volts at 1.0 ampere Joe Cell "pilot current". Not bad if the "auto-electrolysis" is occurring on the 316 stainless steel electrode surfaces. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/25/2006 5:24:49 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc According to Klein's fans, he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of water". Figuring 25 miles/gallon running on gasoline only, his modified vehicle was getting the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline (~115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule) per ounce of water. The best water electrolyzers require 25 Kilowatt-hours/LB or 25/16 = 1.56 Kilowatt-hours per Ounce. Assuming regular electrolysis energy input, recombination of one ounce 454/16 =28.37 grams of H2O from H and OH should yield 1.56 Kw-hr (5.6E6 joule). IOW. a Free Energy benefit of 1.2E8/5.6E6 = 21.5 from somewhere? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/25/2006 2:04:12 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES: FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf 5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals 5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table 5 2 Kmetlc bamers 5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces 5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon Electrochemical Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors): http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Joe Cell: http://www.thejoecell.com/ ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process
is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent
in a 2 hour (7200 second) "50 mph 100 mile trip" it begs the question
of how much free "auto-electrolysis" would be occurring in the
4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring
2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine
combustion process.
 
4.8E8/[7200*4.0E-19] = 1.66E23/6.25E18 = 26,666 ampere-seconds
 
26,666/4000 =6.66 amperes per square centimeter with
12 volts at 1.0 ampere Joe Cell "pilot current".
 
Not bad if the "auto-electrolysis" is occurring on the 316 stainless steel electrode
surfaces.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/25/2006 5:24:49 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

According to Klein's fans, he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of water".
Figuring 25 miles/gallon running on gasoline only, his modified vehicle
was getting the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline (~115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule) per ounce of water.
 
The best water electrolyzers require 25 Kilowatt-hours/LB
or 25/16 = 1.56 Kilowatt-hours per Ounce.
Assuming regular electrolysis energy input, recombination of  one
ounce 454/16 =28.37 grams of H2O from H and OH should
yield  1.56 Kw-hr  (5.6E6 joule).
 
IOW. a Free Energy benefit of 1.2E8/5.6E6 = 21.5 from somewhere?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/25/2006 2:04:12 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

THE INTERACI’ION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES:

FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS

 
5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals

5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table

5 2 Kmetlc bamers

5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces

5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon

 

Electrochemical  Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors):

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm

Otto and Diesel Cycles:

http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm

The Joe Cell:

http://www.thejoecell.com/

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 07:14:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PEESB1002540; Thu, 25 May 2006 07:14:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PEER3k002532; Thu, 25 May 2006 07:14:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:14:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c68005$8735ce40$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-22006542511249424@earthlink.net> Subject: Klein-NOT! was: Helmholtz Layer, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:14:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > According to Klein's fans, he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of > water". But did he burn 3 quarts of crankcase oil, in addition? After all, this was done in a 12 year old Ford Escort, which starts buring as much oil after the first 100k miles as gasoline. Klein goes on to say in the same paragraph of the press release that his invention increases the mileage per gallon of gasoline by 30%. Does that sound like a claim for self-power from the Brown's gas alone ? OK, ++please++ do not misinterpret that comment as relating to Fred's insight and R&D efforts. Lest that assessment of Klein sound too skeptical, let me add that those efforts are definitely on the right track with the Helmholtz-layer capacitor explanation for the mechanics. Right on. This diatribe is directed soley towards Mr. Klein and the latest incarnation of the Florida watercar scam. Klein is long overdue getting the kind of negative comments which he deserves, instead of the glowing inanity from those who should know-better ... I am constantly amazed at the seeming gullibility of many good-intentioned lay-people, so-to-speak (and the state of Florida seems to have most of them) when the magic word 'hydrgogen' or 'water-fuel' is mentioned in print - with gradiose claims attached. Klein's prior and ongoing asssociation with Santilli, and the joint patent application, and the whole stink of this announcement - and the hudreds of disgruntled Florida investors (mostly retirees) would make me NOT want to mention anything Klein/Santilli has supposedly accomplished, as it may only induce more people to invest with him. Here we have another Dennis Lee borderline scam, but this time without the Bible, apparently. Maybe he has a Bible ready too, in case the potential investor gets cold feet. Not to mention the whole episode reads more like a PR stunt than the work of a serious scientist. What I am seeing here is the typical Florida-based (as in 'snow-bird' retirees) pump-and-dump scam, perfected by Santilli over 15 years, but now with a new name attached. How can you repatent "Bown's gas" anyway? But it is a bit less than any real scam becasue there is some truth to it! It is the perfect vehicle to stay "inside-the-law" by attaching the typical boilerplate caveat. Having said that, the really sad part of the whole scenario is that there is an almost 100% certainty that the addition of self-generated Brown's gas to an ICE will result in an improved burn and a significant reduction in gasoline usage, even when you balance that against the extra energy used from the alternator to produce the gas. But Klein is only the latest of several dozen inventors (maybe hundreds if you throw in the Joe-Cel) to see this very real phenomenon at work. You can even buy the electroyzers on the the internet nowadays! Why invest with a copy cat? The problem is - we have known about this improvemnt for a long time, as there was someone before Brown, even - and yet Detroit has yet to take notice of it - in the form of a professionally engineered engine. Now that is the real problem, as there will always be scams and gullible Floridians ... After all, look who they elected as governor. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 07:49:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PEnI0P017911; Thu, 25 May 2006 07:49:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PEnGOX017891; Thu, 25 May 2006 07:49:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:49:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:49:10 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84E21845FADC9-CF0-930F@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <410-220065425134914289@earthlink.net> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <410-220065425134914289@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <2c0no.A.fXE.sPcdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent in a 2 hour (7200 second) "50 mph 100 mile trip" it begs the question of how much free "auto-electrolysis" would be occurring in the 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine combustion process. <><><><><> Are you talking about Klein? The test involved combining H2 + O2 gas WITH gasoline: http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOStest-102103.htm T'aint nothin' new here. JPL did this in 1974: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 08:32:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PFVoKA004560; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:31:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PFVnni004538; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:31:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:31:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004d01c68010$564f2fa0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The Genesis of Deceit Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:31:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of another recent scam, this one finally gone-south (from Idaho) ... and lest "history repeat" itself with Klein... a "word" to the wise: Here is the PESN write-up of Genesis [now in definite need of revision] http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Hydrogen/Genesis/index.html As most everyone who follows alternative-energy knows by now, this was one of the most carefully crafted free-energy "promotions" (formerly a dramatic scientific breakthrough !!) in many years: GWE or Genesis-Technology has not only gone-Kaput, but this time, the visionary inventor has been "iced" shall we say ... This elaborate scam fooled many because they managed to build this brilliant mock-up of the machine, and had an impressive sounding spiel (to some), The prototype looked way-too-real to be a fake. Dennis Lee reportedly has some great looking stuff as well... if you don't look close enough. One genius - named Patrick Timothy Kelly - invented the Genesis machine, and many gullible investors, including a few who now manage a nice website dedicated to ZPE - thought that Genesis was the real thing. Many of the early investors were very vocal in defense of this product, based on almost no evidence - but based solely on the web images of the fake-machine and the unsupported claims. They were convinced that they were onto "the next big thing"... It was faked. Most everyone on vortex picked-up on the numerous red-flags which Genesis could not hide - from day one, and the archives prove that. This alone shows that the vortex readership - if any of them were later to be Genesis investors - is not overly trusting of the self-professed expertise in these matters, demonstrated almost daily . Kelly, the GWE inventor, fled after the ;implosion' but was eventually found and arrested - but that is not the end-of-story. When he was ready to be transported from Idaho - where the scam originated (and the hundreds of GW "visionary engineers" supposedly lived - yes they claimed to have hundreds - not just a few) it was discovered... well...wow this should be made into a screenplay ! Not to keep you in suspense too long, but below is a post from an original GWE investor, named "Baldy" - who often posted glowing PR to the ZPE forum about the company, up to the end. He defended GWE with great vigor, despite everyone's warnings. As you will see in the message - he has now found a new miracle-technology and sure-thing "investment"... This ends-up being a study in the psychology of some kind of pathology, but I'm not sure what to call it yet... >From the ZPE site: "When the Feds agreed to transport Kelly under their JPAT program, "Justice prisoners alien transport" training program, they found that Kelley had been in the system before: AKA Peter O'Malley, inmate # 03938-112 male cauc 50yrs old - not 55, as the alias Patrick Timothy Kelly in AdaCounty jail. The feds assured me there was no question that Kelly is O'Malley. No Federal charges are pending they are acting as a taxi-service since they already had a plane hauling other prisoners east they put Kelly on to save NJ the trip. I also had a trashy response from the Genesis team that they didn't have any record of me as a pre approved licensee, as NS took all the computer records when she left. A most preposterous claim as they had the hard drive with ALL the records there. I was mad as hell! I dashed off a surly response which pointed out that the letter was poorly composed indicating an apparent foreigner. The caption was "Who the hell are these guys" the so called Team. I never sent the response but still have a copy recounting the actual facts in an appropriate factual time frame. Fortunately I found the VIBE Machine through Dr Thomas Valone PHD, did my due diligence and bought one and am now a practitioner. for more on this go onto any web browser and input V.I.B.E. Machine and Gene Koonce the inventor in Greeley Co. 31 months ago. Now there are 97 machines in Co. and 45 states and 13 foreign countries and a patent for the VIBE was issued on the 23 of Aug. 2005 and many FDA clinical tests are under way. The Pickle ['Chipotle Pickle' a dedicated nay-sayer from the start, who can surely take claim for saving some borderline folks some dough] was absolutely right it appears. I am told I will get a visit before Christmas with more info. I will believe it when it happens. Until more positive hands on proof I confess I was duped or at least badly mislead and wasted 35 months of my life. The VIBE however was worth waiting for. Baldy End of message [from the ZPE forum] ... what is that famous aphorism and word-to-the-wise: something like "once bitten, twice shy"? Does that tell you anything about why this guy - Baldy - will probably invest with Klein, if he still has anything left to invest? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 08:41:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PFf4IZ009238; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:41:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PFf3Sh009207; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:41:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:41:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rvLgSXdkwXmnje884oKD+qs183fWjl1Hp8RIjuTop44lMYV3og93e50tPTAIN8Kz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065425154057685@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:40:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e2a755561d72d054259f45f2f6a062f1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber > > In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process > is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent > in a 2 hour (7200 second) "50 mph 100 mile trip" it begs the question > of how much free "auto-electrolysis" would be occurring in the > 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring > 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine > combustion process. > > <><><><><> > > Are you talking about Klein? The test involved combining H2 + O2 gas > WITH gasoline: Yep, Klein's"it ain't Brown's gas" and the Joe Cell. :-) > > http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOStest-102103.htm > > T'aint nothin' new here. JPL did this in 1974: > I'm not to impressed with JPL's 1970s Hydrogen "Expertise" after they came to the rescue of farmers near Pecos Texas when Natural Gas prices skyrocketed overnight they built an electricity powered hydrogen plant that was going to produce cheap fuel at several times the cost of the inflated natural gas price. Unfortunately it exploded. The bank that was sweating ending up with empty farmland heard of our biomass work where 40 acres of "biocrop" would support the energy required for 640 acres contacted us. At the time our figures showed that switching to Diesel was the best near term option until the Texas Bush Dynasty finished opening up the Midland-Odessa oil-gas fields down the road. :-) It seems that there is a cycle where all of the energy self sufficiency problems are solved then put on the back burned until a new generation or two of engineers come along and solve the problem all over again. Fred > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection > > Terry > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 08:48:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PFllVZ012793; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:47:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4PFlkD0012770; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:47:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:47:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060525114703.03cfde08@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060525113241.03ceafb8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:47:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: LENR-CANR down but not out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LENR-CANR was down from 6 until 8 am, U.S. Eastern Time. That does not happen often. The ISP, Jumpline.com, is quite reliable. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 25 21:23:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4Q4NT72016241; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:23:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4Q4NQX1016222; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:23:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:23:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:22:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: OT: the freedom to differ In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order." -- Former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson on freedom of speech, akin to academic freedom of speech/publication From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 06:38:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QDcIB3021745; Fri, 26 May 2006 06:38:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QDcCNo021693; Fri, 26 May 2006 06:38:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 06:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:38:07 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C84EE0C19F919A-A6C-22E53@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Canadian ZPE Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <0j169B.A.0SF.DTwdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=CA2275807&F=0&QPN=CA2275807 http://tinyurl.com/rlsoz ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 07:29:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QESdIk014579; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:28:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QESYNr014518; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:28:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:28:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c680d0$a27f6a50$fb027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Canadian ZPE Patent Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:28:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C680A6.B8A73490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C680A6.B8A73490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C680A6.B8A73490" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C680A6.B8A73490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Hohlhoss, While the US scientific community pursues the US Gov't research grants = tied to the US University good old boy fraternity system, the rest of = the world translates the cumulative research knowledge base into action. Conclusion: Defense research grants have been totally corrupted by this = fraternity in concert with the Washington politics. The US Patent office = has become obsolete and an entirely new vehicle is required to address = the new world of science and discovery. Read Tom Friedman's take on the matter. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=3Dhttp://select.nytimes.com/20= 06/05/24/opinion/24friedman.html&OQ=3D_rQ3D1Q26nQ3DTopQ252fOpinionQ252fEd= itorialsQ2520andQ2520OpQ252dEdQ252fOpQ252dEdQ252fColumnistsQ252fThomasQ25= 20LQ2520Friedman&OP=3D66507390Q2FUjt3UQ5DQ7B(K Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C680A6.B8A73490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Hohlhoss,
 
While the US scientific community pursues the US Gov't research = grants tied=20 to the US University good old boy fraternity system, the rest of the = world=20 translates the cumulative research knowledge base into action.
 
Conclusion: Defense research grants have been totally corrupted by = this=20 fraternity in concert with the Washington politics. The US Patent office = has=20 become obsolete and an entirely new vehicle is required to address the = new world=20 of science and discovery.
 
Read Tom Friedman's take on the matter.

http://se= lect.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=3Dhttp://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/= opinion/24friedman.html&OQ=3D_rQ3D1Q26nQ3DTopQ252fOpinionQ252fEditori= alsQ2520andQ2520OpQ252dEdQ252fOpQ252dEdQ252fColumnistsQ252fThomasQ2520LQ2= 520Friedman&OP=3D66507390Q2FUjt3UQ5DQ7B(K

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C680A6.B8A73490-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C680A6.B8A73490 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c680d0$a16f59e0$fb027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C680A6.B8A73490-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 07:34:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QEYDLK018318; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:34:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QEYCiu018294; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=C6VlxJZwY9y55HYa0eN+GYIN9D4+59CrTj1v4eUElvgVvjircuOXFWJ+K6bpjOnQSJkcgmFA8wgZeym91Q5JQBMUDD5+tS60dE4C8trgJDPHakIE49ueSutaKt8fMPSTGD6gCH6x120ATgJW5DJOnN/9DCrURFTB49/+PfzgpOY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:33:35 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Giggle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_67252_17917596.1148654015608" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_67252_17917596.1148654015608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Anyone seen this sucker? http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-TESLA-SHIELD-radionics-psionics-rife-orgone-magick_= W0QQitemZ9522360679QQcategoryZ1523QQcmdZViewItem among other things, it incorporates the measurement of the cubit... isnt a cubit from your shoulder to your pointing index finger? ------=_Part_67252_17917596.1148654015608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Anyone seen this sucker?
 
 
among other things, it incorporates the measurement of the cubit...&nb= sp; isnt a cubit from your shoulder to your pointing index finger?
------=_Part_67252_17917596.1148654015608-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 08:21:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QFKcx7007468; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QFKWMd007432; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:20:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:20:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:20:19 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84EEF08CE834E-A6C-2330B@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <001e01c680d0$a27f6a50$fb027841@xptower> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <001e01c680d0$a27f6a50$fb027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Canadian ZPE Patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <39DJSB.A.2zB.9yxdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay Read Tom Friedman's take on the matter. <><><><><><> That's not a free service and I'll be damned if I send any money to the NYT. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 09:01:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QG0pJI027939; Fri, 26 May 2006 09:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QG0mfg027902; Fri, 26 May 2006 09:00:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:00:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:00:40 -0400 Message-Id: <8C84EF4AB83C6AD-A6C-2351D@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <00a801c67dd4$18897c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <00a801c67dd4$18897c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.136 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <-JA7aD.A.6zG.vYydEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene There has been talk recently (wishful thinking?) of a governmental initiative, or preferably a private foundation (or joint public/private) initiative to jump-start the development of several forward-thinking alternative energy technologies. <><><><><><> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/tech/main1615295.shtml ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 08:44:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QFiYUQ020764; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:44:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QFiWJ1020721; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:44:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:44:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c680db$15072220$0202a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> Reply-To: "DonW" From: "DonW" To: References: Subject: Re: Giggle Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:42:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C680A8.C524EB70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C680A8.C524EB70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.lifetechnology.org/teslashield.htm http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3DTHE+TESLA+SHIELD+radionics+psion= ics+rife+orgone+magick&btnG=3DGoogle+Search ----- Original Message -----=20 From: leaking pen=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:33 AM Subject: Giggle Anyone seen this sucker? = http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-TESLA-SHIELD-radionics-psionics-rife-orgone-magic= k_W0QQitemZ9522360679QQcategoryZ1523QQcmdZViewItem=20 among other things, it incorporates the measurement of the cubit... = isnt a cubit from your shoulder to your pointing index finger? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/348 - Release Date: = 5/25/2006 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C680A8.C524EB70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.lifetec= hnology.org/teslashield.htm
 
http://www.g= oogle.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3DTHE+TESLA+SHIELD+radionics+psionics+rife= +orgone+magick&btnG=3DGoogle+Search
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 leaking pen=20
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:33 = AM
Subject: Giggle

Anyone seen this sucker?
 
To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:22:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94020ca34842a3bba5db2813ddc02781153350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.134 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/tech/main1615295.shtml "250 mpg car?" I'm on it Terry. Closed Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67 12 to 1 compression ratio) using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy. :-) 81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air. I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
"250 mpg car?"
 
I'm on it Terry.
 
Closed  Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67  12 to 1 compression ratio)
using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. 
 
If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy.  :-)
 
81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air.  
 
I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 10:23:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QHN4Nw000929; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:23:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QHN2mv000874; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:23:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:23:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060526130813.03f8e568@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:22:51 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? In-Reply-To: <8C84EF4AB83C6AD-A6C-2351D@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> References: <00a801c67dd4$18897c40$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8C84EF4AB83C6AD-A6C-2351D@mblkn-m18.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7rDU6B.A.iN.2lzdEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I cannot decide whether X-prize idea is interesting or silly. On one hand, I would love to see the CalCars initiative be awarded $10 million. On the other hand, any automobile company could easily do what they are doing, and if automobile companies will not take part in this R&D effort nothing will come of it. $10 million is nothing to an auto company; the initial $10 million down-payment is not what is stopping the development of plug-in hybrids. Any company other than Toyota or Honda would have to pay hundreds of millions if not billions to begin manufacturing real hybrid cars (plug-in or gasoline only). I think direct grants of $10 million to many researchers working on plug-in hybrids and cold fusion would be better than a single prize. If we insist on a prize that you get only after you succeed, cold fusion will probably never emerge from the laboratory. It seems unlikely to me that a single researcher will develop cold fusion into a practical source of energy at this stage. What we need are many different researchers each pushing the development along in different ways. Progress, not perfection. Incidentally, people are not buying fake hybrids. People are smarter than automobile execs think they are. See: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/05/25/BUGK8J1JK11.DTL Quotes: Honda sold 2,023 Accord Hybrids in April 2005 and only 614 in April 2006, according to Rosten. The Toyota Highlander Hybrid sport utility vehicle met a similar fate. It gets 22 mpg on average, compared to 19 mpg for the standard Toyota Highlander, according to Consumer Reports. Yet the sticker price on the hybrid version is $39,895 compared with $32,465 for the non-hybrid Highlander. . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 10:46:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QHkJFS013606; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:46:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QHkHe9013589; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:46:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:46:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060526132620.03e30c98@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:46:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Lack of funding is not the real problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We all know that there is no funding for cold fusion research. Not millions, not even a few hundred thousand dollars, not $10,000. In the future, people may wonder why. It is not because we lack money or skilled researchers. The US has a tremendous federal budget shortage and a trade deficit, but these are a matter of choice. They are the result of policies set by leaders who feel that deficits are not a serious problem. The U.S. has plenty of money in other parts of the economy. The GDP is approximately $13 trillion. (http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrelarchive/2006/gdp106p.pdf) Many corporate CEOs nowadays earn millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars per year. We could easily spare a few million for cold fusion research. Hostility and fear are preventing research, not any fundamental lack of resources. There is such enormous opposition to cold fusion that it would be career suicide for any mainstream researcher to study it, or even talk about it. Until we break through this wall of opposition, there is no point to discussing $10 million X-prizes for cold fusion. (The situation is quite different for conventional breakthroughs for things like plug-in hybrids. An X-prize might work for that, although I would prefer research grants, as I said.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 10:47:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QHl4tB013943; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QHl32e013915; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gNGRgMppqhrJXWxWzS1+pfKQNjMt9C5d3vrD00aJZrwfvywu9hE8lGmSqFMzVOF1; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-220065526174654866@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:46:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fef39f32ba6aa1c6036a7ef131f1d5f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.195 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Jed is expounding on how it can't be done. (Without his Cold Fusion Fantasy). 6,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition 5,112,702Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/26/2006 11:23:29 AM Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/tech/main1615295.shtml "250 mpg car?" I'm on it Terry. Closed Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67 12 to 1 compression ratio) using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy. :-) 81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air. I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
While Jed is expounding on how it can't be done. (Without his Cold Fusion Fantasy).
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/26/2006 11:23:29 AM
Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ?

 
"250 mpg car?"
 
I'm on it Terry.
 
Closed  Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67  12 to 1 compression ratio)
using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. 
 
If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy.  :-)
 
81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air.  
 
I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder.
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gif9fwhWceL0r.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gif9fwhWceL0r.gif Content-Id: <410-2200655261746465241@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifEmUyFKHDXR.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifEmUyFKHDXR.gif Content-Id: <184671-2200655261746465242@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 10:47:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QHlLbS014096; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QHlJww014059; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:47:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:47:09 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C84F038BD0A210-578-1CCB5@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Where Protons Go Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.138 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As Jones pointed out, sometimes protons simply aren't there. Maybe they go here: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/du-sph052506.php One braneworld theorist mentioned here is Lisa Randall. Ahhhhh, Lisa . . . http://physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 11:28:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QIS9LA003098; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:28:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QIS7OJ003068; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:28:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:28:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060526135338.03da2668@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:27:52 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? In-Reply-To: <412-220065526174654866@earthlink.net> References: <412-220065526174654866@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >While Jed is expounding on how it can't be done. (Without his Cold >Fusion Fantasy). I said nothing about the 250 mpg automobile. Anyone can see how that can be built. Any automobile maker could have produced a 250 mpg plug-in car 30 years ago. Strictly from a technical perspective, it resembles the development of the Internet: it is a straightforward, predictable, incremental improvement to existing technology. Advanced automobiles have not been developed because of opposition from automobile executives, fossil fuel companies and government leaders, and because the public has never demanded them. Contrary to some modern mythology, the Internet was not a major breakthrough. The people who invented it were brilliant, but not geniuses. They eschewed originality. Like the IBM engineers who first assembled the PC, they selected off-the-shelf equipment that could be reprogrammed cheaply. (Of course that was brilliant, and just the right thing to do.) Any Telcom engineer in the 1970s could understand what they were up to, even though very few could have done such a good job. Actually, one of the most outstanding and inspired aspects of the Internet was in the political leadership. A small number of legislators and government officials, led by Al Gore, saw to it that the project was funded and carried out. Gore was widely ridiculed for saying that he "invented the Internet." There were two problems with this ridicule: 1. He never said "invent." he said: ""During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." 2. That statement is completely correct in every respect. He played a leading role in the development, just as highway commissioner plays a leading role in designing and pushing through funds for a new bridge. If any politician ever pushes through funding for cold fusion, he will have every right to say "I took the initiative in creating cold fusion." In a sense, his role will be as vital as the researchers' roles, although of course they will do more work and they will be irreplaceable, whereas any politician can step into this role. You need at least one politician (or corporate CEO, or philanthropist) plus ~100 researchers to develop cold fusion. Any politician with power and guts will do, but it matters a great deal which group of 100 researchers you select. In a sense, the politician would an "accidental hero" like a bystander who notices a fire and calls 911. Anyone could call 911, and most people would, but the person who actually notices and makes the call gets the credit. The politician's role also resembles my role as librarian at LENR-CANR.org, Any fool could do what I do, but I happen to be the only fool available. (The actual work is not a bit difficult; any intelligent high school kid could do it. My kids helped when they were in high school.) Insofar as LENR-CANR performs a vital service, I get the credit for it. If it ever helps to trigger widespread interest in the field, and funding, I get the credit for that. For jobs like this, as Woody Allen put it, "80 percent of success is just showing up." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 11:31:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QIVEDe005213; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:31:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QIVC0K005155; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:31:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:31:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "List - Vortex" Subject: RE: Giggle Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C680C8.A1ED8430" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <002d01c680db$15072220$0202a8c0@DONWDESKTOP> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <2OxwRD.A.LQB.ul0dEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C680C8.A1ED8430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, and here I've spent my career trying to make products that actually do things. No wonder I haven't made big bucks yet. http://www.randi.org/jr/060305be.html#11 You too can market to the pathological gullible too... http://www.logopoeia.com/wisdom/ Reload the page as many time as you like for hours of fun. Sadly, I think I recognize a few past threads on Vortex in there.... 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: DonW [mailto:dwiegel@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:43 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Giggle http://www.lifetechnology.org/teslashield.htm http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=THE+TESLA+SHIELD+radionics+psionics+rif e+orgone+magick&btnG=Google+Search ----- Original Message ----- From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:33 AM Subject: Giggle Anyone seen this sucker? http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-TESLA-SHIELD-radionics-psionics-rife-orgone-magick _W0QQitemZ9522360679QQcategoryZ1523QQcmdZViewItem among other things, it incorporates the measurement of the cubit... isnt a cubit from your shoulder to your pointing index finger? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/348 - Release Date: 5/25/2006 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C680C8.A1ED8430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow,=20 and here I've spent my career trying to make products that actually do=20 things.  No wonder I haven't made big bucks yet.  http://www.randi.org/jr= /060305be.html#11
 
You=20 too can market to the pathological gullible too...
http://www.logopoeia.com/wisdom= /
 
Reload=20 the page as many time as you like for hours of fun.  Sadly, I think = I=20 recognize a few past threads on Vortex in there.... = 8^)
 
-john
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DonW=20 [mailto:dwiegel@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:43=20 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:=20 Giggle

http://www.lifetec= hnology.org/teslashield.htm
 
http://www.g= oogle.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3DTHE+TESLA+SHIELD+radionics+psionics+rife= +orgone+magick&btnG=3DGoogle+Search
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 leaking pen=20
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:33 = AM
Subject: Giggle

Anyone seen this sucker?
 
To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:12:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402109f6947ba1c9b7adf6fec44df0933e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.163 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Almost forgot. Need to carry on-board H2 to use that O2 from the Hydrogen Peroxide reaction: 2 HO-OH + 2 H2 -----> 4 H2O The Electrolytic Hydrogen Peroxide Processes can provide the H2. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/26/2006 11:23:29 AM Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/tech/main1615295.shtml "250 mpg car?" I'm on it Terry. Closed Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67 12 to 1 compression ratio) using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy. :-) 81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air. I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder. http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Almost forgot.
 
Need to carry on-board H2 to use that O2 from the Hydrogen Peroxide reaction:
 
2 HO-OH + 2 H2 ----->  4 H2O
 
The  Electrolytic Hydrogen Peroxide Processes can provide the H2.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/26/2006 11:23:29 AM
Subject: Re: Alt-NRG X Prizes ?

 
"250 mpg car?"
 
I'm on it Terry.
 
Closed  Otto Cycle Engine (Argon , gamma 1.67  12 to 1 compression ratio)
using hydrogen peroxide (HO-OH) fuel. 
 
If HO-OH powered engines are good enough for the US Navy.  :-)
 
81% thermal efficiency vs 65% efficiency for a 17 to 1 Diesel open-cycle on air.  
 
I keep this engine calculator stored in my documents folder.
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 16:45:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QNirak014352; Fri, 26 May 2006 16:44:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4QNiodZ014327; Fri, 26 May 2006 16:44:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 16:44:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: (fwd) PhysOrg Newsletter Thursday, May 25 Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 09:44:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2k4f72hoao8csej561ol9vtsou4c9dv92t@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.111] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 26 May 2006 23:44:46 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4QNikYb014294 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Interesting juxtaposition of articles. :) >NUKE PLANT MUST CLEAN UP RADIOACTIVE WATER, May 25 >Officials at Illinois' Braidwood nuclear plant have reportedly been ordered to begin cleaning up groundwater contaminated with radioactive tritium. >Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news67779769.html > >NUCLEAR POWER: SAFE, INEXPENSIVE AND ENVIRONMENTALLY-FRIENDLY, SAYS BUSH, May 25 >President George W. Bush touted nuclear power as a safe, inexpensive and environmentally-friendly way to meet America's growing energy needs. >Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news67761153.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 19:10:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4R2A222005357; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:10:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4R23nmj002463; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:03:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:03:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=CUKSyacWE0W4tthNaDAtc7P2ANnx7uJeHrSFoI+/mxJ0Y6VTAfKOm8jtV0HKilCJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065627233150@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 26, 2006 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:03:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f8e45db4e3a38f7f485b6998ccf07786350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.92.224 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forward by aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 5/26/2006 10:59:57 AM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday May 26, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 26 May 06 Washington, DC 1. CHIEF DOMESTIC ADVISOR: MARVEL COMICS AND THE WAR IN IRAQ. President Bush on Wednesday named Karl Zinsmeister as his chief domestic policy advisor. The position had been vacant since February when Claude Allen resigned the position "to spend more time with his family." During visiting hours? Allen was caught stealing from Target department stores in a fake return scheme. It's hardly Ken Lay stuff, but it's still criminal. Allen's replacement, Karl Zinsmeister, was editor of The American Enterprise, the magazine of the American Enterprise Institute. In 2003, he was embedded as a military reporter with the 82nd Airborne in Iraq. His Iraq experience is chronicled in Combat Zone: True Tales of GI's in Iraq, which Zinsmeister wrote for Marvel Comics - a perfect background for the Bush White House. 2. FDA COMMISSIONER: PLAN B AND THE GOING-AWAY PARTY AT NCI. President Bush in March nominated the director of the National Cancer Institute, Andrew von Eschenbach, a Bush family friend, to head the Food and Drug Administration. His qualifications? Like the last two FDA commissioners picked by Bush, von Eschenbach opposes Plan B, the emergency contraceptive or "morning-after" pill http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn090205.html , and for that matter, anything else that might reduce the incentive for abstinence, such as human papilloma virus vaccine. His move to FDA was cause for a celebration at NCI. A Washington newsletter, The Cancer Letter, ran a copy of the invitation: "$25 per person. Gift contributions also welcome." The party has been postponed (something about the law), but people at NCI seemed willing to pay just about anything to see the last of von Eschenbach. 3. IMAGINARY WEAPONS: WHY THE PENTAGON KEEPS THIS STUFF SECRET. The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA), one of the countless independent, nonprofit, public policy research institutes in Washington, reported last week that the Pentagon will spend $30 billion on classified programs in FY 2007. Why? In a new book, Imaginary Weapon: A Journey Through the Pentagon's Scientific Underworld, Sharon Weinberger peeks behind the curtain at hafnium bombs, "remote viewing," telepathy and all the rest and concludes secrecy is mostly to avoid rational oversight. 4. GLOBAL WARMING: SPREADING THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT CARBON DIOXIDE. The libertarian Competitive Enterprise Institute, another of the nonprofit public policy organizations based in Washington, has been airing two 60-second television spots in 14 cities across the nation this week. "Nonprofit" does not mean they don't keep cash in the freezer. Most of CEI's $3 million budget comes from oil companies, particularly ExxonMobil. CEI argues that we all have a responsibility to make as much CO2 as possible. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 26 19:48:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4R2ltxc021667; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:47:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4R2lrM9021652; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:47:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001301c68137$ef18eb90$0c027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Lack of funding is not the real problem Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:47:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6810E.05BDFC20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6810E.05BDFC20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6810E.05BDFC20" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6810E.05BDFC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed wrote.. >The US has a tremendous federal budget shortage and a trade deficit,=20 but these are a matter of choice. They are the result of policies set=20 by leaders who feel that deficits are not a serious problem. The U.S.=20 has plenty of money in other parts of the economy. The GDP is=20 approximately $13 trillion.=20 Howdy Jed.. Scott Burns wrote an op-ed piece in the Houston Chronicle May 15th. = Quoting his figures.. US Fed deficit 2005 318 billion for a total federal gross debt of = over 8 TRILLION This is peanuts compared to what happened in Social security, medicare, = medicaid and drugs... ready for the numbers ???????? The unfunded = mandate increased in ONE YEAR $ 3 TRILLION DOLLARS to a total of $ = 32.1 TRILLION Dollars. This is why Donald Rummie stated that .. " = deficits no longer matter" They dont!! This is almost 3 times the gross national product of the US. It is the = absolute worlds largest pyramid scheme. Enron Execs were convicted of = what the politicians practice daily with a straight face. Richard =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6810E.05BDFC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed wrote..

>The US has a tremendous federal budget shortage and a trade = deficit,=20
but these are a matter of choice. They are the result of policies = set
by=20 leaders who feel that deficits are not a serious problem. The U.S. =
has=20 plenty of money in other parts of the  economy. The GDP is=20
approximately $13 trillion.

Howdy Jed..

Scott Burns wrote an op-ed piece in the Houston Chronicle May 15th. = Quoting=20 his figures..

US Fed deficit 2005   = 318 billion    for a=20 total federal gross debt of over 8 TRILLION

This is peanuts compared to what happened in Social security, = medicare,=20 medicaid and drugs... ready for the  numbers ????????   = The=20 unfunded mandate increased in ONE YEAR  $ 3 TRILLION DOLLARS to a = total=20 of   $ 32.1 TRILLION Dollars. This is why Donald Rummie = stated=20 that .. " deficits no longer matter" They dont!!

This is almost 3 times the gross national product of the US. It is = the=20 absolute worlds largest pyramid scheme. Enron Execs were convicted of = what the=20 politicians practice daily  with a straight face.

Richard          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;        =20

------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C6810E.05BDFC20-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6810E.05BDFC20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000e01c68137$ee8adc60$0c027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C6810E.05BDFC20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 09:45:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4RGjDqT025383; Sat, 27 May 2006 09:45:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4RGjBI1025358; Sat, 27 May 2006 09:45:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 09:45:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sQTfdR3PlXysw1oPLrD/jKbNIvmVoKY0GnUR3APbOghhkBQvOzuktq/bi60mZk2LJ60PSujpweECbiDuq7pTWxGlrp6VfWZ1JClA/ZMpO+K22nNApOoIhIBlrxQoAWRMwmxN8q/aIl0zJ5H3bCbVnsAtER2TZ9LLeOqkoE30DwU= ; Message-ID: <20060527164511.13152.qmail@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Where Protons Go To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8C84F038BD0A210-578-1CCB5@mblkn-m20.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > As Jones pointed out, sometimes protons simply > aren't there. Maybe they go here: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/du-sph052506.php This model is interesting and worthy of more study, but it is both less and more than the more useful concept of 4-space which I have been trying to get a handle on for at least two decades, since getting hooked on the basics by Rudy Rucker's books - and then Dirac. Perhaps all these ideas needs to be studied more - and then integrated into the 'brane' viewpoint at that 'big end' of the spectrum, as it has some features for cosmology which are good - but that view overlooks the other end of the spectrum, comparatively. The other end is where so-called free-energy (ZPE) will be extracted - if it can be. Often a few observers (present company included) have (mis)used and expanded (co-opted) Dirac's term "reciprocal space" in a slightly off-beat way in order to grasp and expound on this concept of 4-space as an aether - especially at the sub-angstrom end of the spectrum. Unfortunately several other branches of science have begun to use the same term - reciprocal space - but in the limited context of whatever they are doing and trying to understand (like crystallography or topography) - and consequently there is no general consensus on the broader common-denominator definition AFAIK - except that the Fourier transform is a key feature. BTW - there is nothing that says that this 'reciprocal space' cannot itself have more than one inherent dimension - and it probably has the same three - giving six total dimensions. This coincides with Grimer's hierarchy to a degree although his alpha-aether is apparently in our three space - unlike the others. [side note] the thought just crossed my mind that 'virtual positronium' the quantum 'foam' which is more-or-less a proven reality is in fact an electron still in 3-space bound to a Fourier-transformed electron (positron) in reciprocal space - and that is why the two particles seldom "annihilate" but rather exhibit a strong natural preference of reciprocality in one-dimension - which is the aether interface 1-space. I think the most general way of thinking about reciprocal space is as the Fourier transform of real space, not only at each dimension and fractal (fractional dimension) but also the at the group level- i.e. at the 'brane' level - which is a way of achieving an integrated model that might unfold from one-space into the 'brane' in kind of a circular fashion. A common feature of many views of 4-space (with definite theological overtone) is this interconnectivity of the large and the small. But all this is too mind-boggling to tackle today. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 27 13:04:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4RK3vq4011130; Sat, 27 May 2006 13:03:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4RK3t5M011107; Sat, 27 May 2006 13:03:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:03:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:03:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: 2006 TMSC Tesla Conference (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 6-8 Tesla conference in Long Island NY I don't recall seeing this announcement earlier... (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci First Tesla Museum and Science Center Conference on NIKOLA TESLA October 6-8, 2006, Long Island, New York, United States of America On the occasion of the 150th anniversary of Nikola Tesla's birth Brookhaven, Farmingville, N.Y. 11738 Re: First Announcement and Call for Papers Dear Colleague, We invite you and your associates to participate in a conference dedicated to Nikola Tesla that will be held on Long Island, New York from October 6 through the 8th, 2006. The deadline for abstract submission is June 1, 2006. Submission instructions can be viewed at http://www.ntmsc.org/conferences/submission.htm . Author Guidelines can be viewed at http://www.ntmsc.org/conferences/author_guidelines.htm . For additional details please refer to www.ntmsc.org . Sincerely, Joint Conference Organizing Committee Friends of Science East P.O. Box 552 Shoreham, NY 11786 (631) 744-0010 (Fax) teslamuseum@hotmail.com www.teslasciencecenter.org Tesla Wardenclyffe Project, Inc. P.O. Box 8041 Breckenridge, CO 80424-8041 (970) 453-9293 (Phone) (970) 453-6692 (Fax) info@teslascience.org www.teslascience.org From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 05:00:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4SC03ru003382; Sun, 28 May 2006 05:00:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4SC01ga003296; Sun, 28 May 2006 05:00:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 05:00:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nIaTqaZcooCZsBUHR6QzELC0tTqev6/Jb6gZxewuFbTbPZXyPD+YXx4tKGKI3WTo; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065028115944749@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 05:59:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401c1ff33f76f58d3f1553eff1fde227aa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.113 Resent-Message-ID: <2aSrBC.A.Xz.ADZeEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII delta G, Gibbs Free Energy from CRC tables. H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 E = 35.31 And if this correct blame it on Chocolate. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
delta G,  Gibbs Free Energy from CRC tables.
 
H-OH     - 56.687
OH          + 8.18
HO-OH   - 28.78
H               +48.58
H2              0.00
O               + 55.39
O2              0.00
 
H + OH + E  =  H-OH
                   E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073
 
2 H-OH + O2 +  E =  4 OH  
                              E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18)
                               E = 113.374 + 32.72
                               E = 146.094
 
4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH
               E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18)
               E = - 24.84
 
2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2
                      E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78)
                      E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78
                      E = - 55.814
 
OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been
exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound
O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy)
 and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH.
 
See around pages 305 and up:
 
 
Then 2 H-OH + 2 O  =  4 OH
 
2 H-OH + 2 O + E =  4 OH
                              E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 
                              E = 35.31
 
And if this correct blame it on Chocolate.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
                     
        
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 07:39:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4SEdb9t009490; Sun, 28 May 2006 07:39:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4SEdYul009456; Sun, 28 May 2006 07:39:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 07:39:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SSkve4rVaSu2OpMIMqghqR5PlkUo2MyoNrlx6lpi+KhiiaARbjlfgT4t5nh+aJoSFxt45/hAkYoJToonZybiRkjbF91NDykMkT0yKsNsF5wbxMmPaUyZ6i4bjosSFXR6zuHVvbkd73RBwNOHt9MnbpD+Zgv+1MINIx17CyLaZow= ; Message-ID: <20060528143250.55800.qmail@web82711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 07:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Helmholtz Layer electrode To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-220065028115944749@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you have been talking about is a surface effect - why would you not maximize the surface area? such as by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of tubes or plates - you should be able to get an order of magnitude (or several) more surface area for the same weight of stainless.... perhaps by forming two layers of SS-foil into a double "jelly-roll" spiral? http://www.outokumpu.com/pages/Page____5668.aspx From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 08:23:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4SFMoZ4028671; Sun, 28 May 2006 08:22:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4SFMmql028657; Sun, 28 May 2006 08:22:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 08:22:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mz6ApWaYnSnVco0SK2eyEM1hH4XJCJFsfuWSOoKa6gLwocVtBjXlfNAA0wrU65OU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065028152237478@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:22:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fd573367bb255a36214d96ffe8ddf122350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.37 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote. > > Fred, > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you > have been talking about is a surface effect - why > would you not maximize the surface area? such as by > switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of tubes > or plates - you should be able to get an order of > magnitude (or several) more surface area for the same > weight of stainless.... perhaps by forming two layers > of SS-foil into a double "jelly-roll" spiral? > Sure thing Jones.But the spacing may be a significant factor for getting OH gas as opposed to the HO-OH liquid or O2 or H2 instead of H formed at the anode or cathode metal-water interface. The Joe Cell has about 4,000 square cm of floating/"neutral" plate area plus the 2"dia x 10 inch cathode surface and the 6"dia x ~ 12" anode-shell. Autoionization puts about 1.0E8 OH-/cm^2 on one side and 1.0E8 H3O+/cm^2 on the other side of a plate or foil that can neutralize by electron exchange through the plate or foil without showing up in the battery circuit that is measuring the current through the series grouping of cells. So, in the Joe Cell at 12 volts @ 1.0 ampere electrolysis current is augmented by Free Energy through-the-plate discharge and Metal-Water Interface AutoDissociation Effects. Helmholtz didn't take the biased plate backside layer or the back streaming of O2 onto the plate surfaces to get AutoDissociation of water into account. :-) Fred > http://www.outokumpu.com/pages/Page____5668.aspx From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 09:34:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4SGYcix032670; Sun, 28 May 2006 09:34:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4SGYVje032593; Sun, 28 May 2006 09:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:34:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FSKOmgqkeN/JrrqItLc5h6AWqdRLYvMZvNW6/BM2+Kan+2QXkCjQE+gp4KASI4EQO5A+pjIk4bVQdOxljumPSUawmOK2LqSCYZjp+yLXbM8gqGcHx+88/c9wAUucSdXrtBTRDXjkoMJndTt4/j7Dx43NgIMUyq4vmqyUptz+WEM= ; Message-ID: <20060528163429.28317.qmail@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-220065028152237478@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of tubes > > or plates - > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a significant factor Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only working "on occassion" which appears to be the case. Keep the spacing between the electrode layers nearly the same as before - and use a porous diffuser plate underneath the 'jelly roll' so that air must be drawn accoss the massive surface area of electrodes from bottom to top - that has been my suggestion to an associate in OZ, who may have some results to share on this revised verion of 'super-size-it' cell soon - perhaps to be called the CoHLEC or Common-manifold Helmholtz Layer Electrolysis Cell, pronounced 'collect' ... So what if the SS foil costs $200 or more wholesale - you make that back in the first month (first week in Europe) in savings ... and did you notice how the Petro-Mafia bumped up the fuel-price for the holiday weekend - $ 3.85 at Chevron in Cal. for high-grade. It will only get worse when Iran tests its first nuke in August I have put in a 'collect' call to the CEO of Chevron to remind him of what the artifically high, 'gouging' to be exact - US price and the Ken-Lay-type-greed of obscene profits can get you... and its 15-20... (years not billions) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 16:23:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4SNNVAx010449; Sun, 28 May 2006 16:23:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4SNNJZb010376; Sun, 28 May 2006 16:23:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 16:23:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SmZtOhxKct10tgUpRNU9/jT02MT0Spb4f/iQf6SUr6lr8dQFb2qZ7dYzsAdScrcg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006502823231917@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:23:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403aa3a725d0dde82cc44c431bb6c89596350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you > > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why > > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as > > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of > tubes > > > or plates - > > > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a > significant factor > > Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the > current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the > Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going > larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a > 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe > 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer > results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only > working "on occasion" which appears to be the case. > You're pitting your recent experience against years of experience gained by trial and error and "80 cars running on the Joe Cell" when less than a month ago you said it was crap? The shallow depth concentric cylinder Capacitance-Resisistance Divider in the Joe Cell can only be duplicated by using shallow series Capacitance-Resistance Divider stacked plates even if you have to roll thin concentric barrel hoops and place them in circular Anode pans stacked with adequate vapor space on a Cathode pole in vapor chimney. Fred Snip the Sidewalk Superintendent lecture. :-) > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 28 23:43:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T6hS7u012250; Sun, 28 May 2006 23:43:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T6hPUx012228; Sun, 28 May 2006 23:43:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:43:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Where are they hyding? Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 16:43:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.54.23] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 29 May 2006 06:43:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4T6hMlM012194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Hydrinos forming in the Solar atmosphere, can readily acquire a free proton to form a hydrino molecular ion. Unlike hydrinohydride, molecular ions can form at any level of shrinkage, and thereafter appear to all intents and purposes to be almost equivalent to a deuteron. They should also be able to acquire an orbital electron and behave just like normal ground state hydrogen (or more properly deuterium). That includes the ability to undergo the same normal chemical reactions that hydrogen undergoes. Upon reaching the Earth's atmosphere they can bind with Oxygen to form "heavy" water, and rain down. If this water is electrolyzed, faux deuterium forms, and will pass through metals with the same ease as normal hydrogen, or alternatively, the faux deuterium nucleus, actually a severely shrunken positively charged molecular ion, may also acquire an electron converting it into a neutral molecule which would be so small as to easily pass through the interstitial spaces in any metal. When this substance is struck hard enough by an electron accelerated by the high voltage in the spark gap, it gets broken into varies pieces, sometimes resulting in only one hydrino, sometimes in two. These then can be further shrunk due to catalysis by O++, releasing energy, and also making it more likely that N14 will fuse with the further shrunken hydrino resulting in O15 + lots of energy. All in all this nearly explains the Joe cell. Small quantities of existing hydrinos in the water are liberated (but not created) in the electrolysis system, and these release lots of energy when they undergo further shrinkage (possibly with fusion reactions) in the cylinder. It does not explain why the engine runs cold. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:08:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T87kYb019915; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:07:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T87jCs019898; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:07:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c682f6$f6359430$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006502823231917@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:07:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4T87gNH019878 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible BTW. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:23 AM Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode > Jones Beene wrote: >> >> --- Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you >> > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why >> > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as >> > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of >> tubes >> > > or plates - >> >> > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a >> significant factor >> >> Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the >> current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the >> Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going >> larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a >> 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe >> 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer >> results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only >> working "on occasion" which appears to be the case. >> > You're pitting your recent experience against years of experience > gained by trial and error and "80 cars running on the Joe Cell" > when less than a month ago you said it was crap? > > The shallow depth concentric cylinder Capacitance-Resisistance Divider in > the Joe Cell can > only be duplicated by using shallow series Capacitance-Resistance Divider > stacked plates > even if you have to roll thin concentric barrel hoops and place them in > circular Anode pans stacked with adequate > vapor space on a Cathode pole in vapor chimney. > > Fred > > Snip the Sidewalk Superintendent lecture. :-) > > >> Jones >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:10:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T8A6vp021413; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T86c7O017068; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:06:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:06:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=suyFiYb6yXyzu2qdrW/bc7RFoF26WOOOMCYbquHCy4QugBJ7dFDVANIdq39E4LQk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065129868161@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:06:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408a4824884f901a45374d6247bbd0b979350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.136 Resent-Message-ID: <51u1VD.A.gJE.LuqeEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been > exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound > O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) > and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. > Typically Raney Nickel has a surface area of 100 Square Meters per Gram. A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked with hot water heated off the engine with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed should make an interesting water burner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 E = 35.31 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
>
> OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been
> exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound
> O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy)
> and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH.
>
Typically Raney Nickel has  a surface area of 100 Square Meters
per Gram.
 
A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a 
nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked with hot water heated off the engine
with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed
should make an interesting water burner.
 
 
 
H-OH     - 56.687
OH          + 8.18
HO-OH   - 28.78
H               +48.58
H2              0.00
O               + 55.39
O2              0.00
 
H + OH + E  =  H-OH
                   E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073
 
2 H-OH + O2 +  E =  4 OH  
                              E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18)
                               E = 113.374 + 32.72
                               E = 146.094
 
4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH
               E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18)
               E = - 24.84
 
2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2
                      E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78)
                      E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78
                      E = - 55.814
 
OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been
exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound
O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy)
 and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH.
 
See around pages 305 and up:
 
 
Then 2 H-OH + 2 O  =  4 OH
 
2 H-OH + 2 O + E =  4 OH
                              E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 
                              E = 35.31
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:18:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T8I1S8025431; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:18:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T8Hu05025379; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:17:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:17:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Nsni6dHYzTL85uiwYZBjIUg4WN51QKOqmQnrjRYua3T8ZcbIwvfAtKFPtERk5NQu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512981746956@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:17:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94078c14257bfb6abfbb82bc1635af05fbd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible BTW. > Joe Cell Seminar July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on vehicles for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, and 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and knows off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line disconnected." Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:23 AM > Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > >> > >> --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> > >> > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you > >> > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why > >> > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as > >> > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of > >> tubes > >> > > or plates - > >> > >> > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a > >> significant factor > >> > >> Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the > >> current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the > >> Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going > >> larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a > >> 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe > >> 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer > >> results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only > >> working "on occasion" which appears to be the case. > >> > > You're pitting your recent experience against years of experience > > gained by trial and error and "80 cars running on the Joe Cell" > > when less than a month ago you said it was crap? > > > > The shallow depth concentric cylinder Capacitance-Resisistance Divider in > > the Joe Cell can > > only be duplicated by using shallow series Capacitance-Resistance Divider > > stacked plates > > even if you have to roll thin concentric barrel hoops and place them in > > circular Anode pans stacked with adequate > > vapor space on a Cathode pole in vapor chimney. > > > > Fred > > > > Snip the Sidewalk Superintendent lecture. :-) > > > > >> Jones > >> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:30:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T8TiWN030966; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:29:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T8TgeS030937; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:29:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:29:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c682fa$078c06d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006512981746956@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:29:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4T8TcQj030896 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was asking about your _own_ experience Fred :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your > own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away > wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only > a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible > BTW. >> > Joe Cell Seminar > July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference > 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm > > http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ > > "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on vehicles > for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed > around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, and > 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them > improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and knows > off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line > disconnected." > > Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) > > Fred >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:23 AM >> Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> >> > Jones Beene wrote: >> >> >> >> --- Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> >> >> > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you >> >> > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why >> >> > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as >> >> > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of >> >> tubes >> >> > > or plates - >> >> >> >> > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a >> >> significant factor >> >> >> >> Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the >> >> current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the >> >> Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going >> >> larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a >> >> 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe >> >> 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer >> >> results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only >> >> working "on occasion" which appears to be the case. >> >> >> > You're pitting your recent experience against years of experience >> > gained by trial and error and "80 cars running on the Joe Cell" >> > when less than a month ago you said it was crap? >> > >> > The shallow depth concentric cylinder Capacitance-Resisistance Divider > in >> > the Joe Cell can >> > only be duplicated by using shallow series Capacitance-Resistance > Divider >> > stacked plates >> > even if you have to roll thin concentric barrel hoops and place them in >> > circular Anode pans stacked with adequate >> > vapor space on a Cathode pole in vapor chimney. >> > >> > Fred >> > >> > Snip the Sidewalk Superintendent lecture. :-) >> > > >> >> Jones >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 01:44:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T8i7oL004368; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T8i6xG004347; Mon, 29 May 2006 01:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 01:44:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nqR6ti3mKi3d8EIor6JviXx0M6ZW2vXtxWapY6fT/+rP6I5uXi0yZcXxQt67HFH9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512984357685@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:43:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405fa458e14efe2ad8275137125fedd5a0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) with NaHCO3-Borax "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. He found it a lifting experience. Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people floating on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law points for him. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > > > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your > own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away > wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only > a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible > BTW. > > > Joe Cell Seminar > July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference > 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm > > http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ > > "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on vehicles > for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed > around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, and > 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them > improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and knows > off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line > disconnected." > > Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) > > Fred > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:23 AM > > Subject: RE: Helmholtz Layer electrode > > > > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > >> > > >> --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >> > > >> > > Given that this kind of efficient electrolysis you > > >> > > have been talking about is a surface effect - why > > >> > > would you not maximize the surface area? such as > > >> > > by switching to a stainless steel foil, instead of > > >> tubes > > >> > > or plates - > > >> > > >> > Sure thing Jones. But the spacing may be a > > >> significant factor > > >> > > >> Yes, precisely. In fact the small size (volume) of the > > >> current Joe-Cell is fairly ridiculous, given that the > > >> Helmholtz parameters can only get better by going > > >> larger. For even a small ICE, it would seem that a > > >> 10-20 gallon shallow container - minimum- with maybe > > >> 100,000 cm^2 of SS foil electrodes might show clearer > > >> results, whereas the much smaller size of Joe is only > > >> working "on occasion" which appears to be the case. > > >> > > > You're pitting your recent experience against years of experience > > > gained by trial and error and "80 cars running on the Joe Cell" > > > when less than a month ago you said it was crap? > > > > > > The shallow depth concentric cylinder Capacitance-Resisistance Divider > in > > > the Joe Cell can > > > only be duplicated by using shallow series Capacitance-Resistance > Divider > > > stacked plates > > > even if you have to roll thin concentric barrel hoops and place them in > > > circular Anode pans stacked with adequate > > > vapor space on a Cathode pole in vapor chimney. > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > Snip the Sidewalk Superintendent lecture. :-) > > > > > > >> Jones > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 02:06:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T95nrs014120; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:05:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T95lL5014098; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:05:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:05:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c682ff$1193d450$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006512984357685@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:05:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4T95hqW014068 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: About calorimetry on the gas, I was wondering, could it be as simple as slow-burning it underwater as it is produced, in a torch whose tip is deeply immersed in a calorimetered bucket of water? Er BTW if haven't done any calorimetry on the gas, what was the Eout in the Ein/Eout=4 ratio you told us about? Michel P.S. About the salt lake lifting experiment, I guess it could be tried in one's bath tub to see how it feels, the good old Archimedes way ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) > with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) with > NaHCO3-Borax > "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we > haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. > > As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on > a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) > left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. > He found it a lifting experience. > Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people floating > on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law points > for him. :-) > > Fred > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Frederick Sparber >> To: >> Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> > >> > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your >> own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away >> wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only >> a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible >> BTW. >> > >> Joe Cell Seminar >> July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA >> Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference >> 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm >> >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ >> >> "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on > vehicles >> for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed >> around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, and >> 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them >> improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and > knows >> off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line >> disconnected." >> >> Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) >> >> Fred >> > >> > Michel snip From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 02:24:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T9ONID022690; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:24:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T9ODlI022568; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:24:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:24:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=h96F5io+vwP2/3DdfthFrie2/LN4OntL0J5qAB/+7KrrhhirYUKR9uP0uxdM6yzM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651299242523@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:24:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94033572c037b5481707744f43d3ee73723350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian w3rote: > > About calorimetry on the gas, I was wondering, could it be as simple as slow-burning it underwater as it is produced, in a torch whose tip is deeply immersed in a calorimetered bucket of water? > My "lackey" is pushing 82 and wants to try it on an engine "without all of that science stuff". :-) > > Er BTW if haven't done any calorimetry on the gas, what was the Eout in the Ein/Eout=4 ratio you told us about? > I didn't say anything along those lines, did I? Only that adding bicab of soda and borax upped the current from 2.0 milliamperes to over 800. > > Michel > > P.S. About the salt lake lifting experiment, I guess it could be tried in one's bath tub to see how it feels, the good old Archemedes way ;) > Nah. not enough variety of minerals, Michel, and son-in-law said walking on soft crystals along the shore was therapeutic for his feet, which are large enough that he doesn't need water skis. :-) Fred > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > > > > BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) > > with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) with > > NaHCO3-Borax > > "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we > > haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. > > > > As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on > > a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) > > left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. > > He found it a lifting experience. > > Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people floating > > on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law points > > for him. :-) > > > > Fred > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Frederick Sparber > >> To: > >> Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM > >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > > >> > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in your > >> own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away > >> wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being only > >> a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is possible > >> BTW. > >> > > >> Joe Cell Seminar > >> July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > >> Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference > >> 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm > >> > >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ > >> > >> "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on > > vehicles > >> for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed > >> around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, and > >> 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them > >> improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and > > knows > >> off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line > >> disconnected." > >> > >> Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) > >> > >> Fred > >> > > >> > Michel > > snip From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 02:46:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4T9keKO032399; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:46:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4T9kcB4032363; Mon, 29 May 2006 02:46:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:46:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <053601c68304$c65b7c30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200651299242523@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:46:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4T9kaj2032236 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > Michel Jullian w3rote: >> >> About calorimetry on the gas, I was wondering, could it be as simple as > slow-burning it underwater as it is produced, in a torch whose tip is > deeply immersed in a calorimetered bucket of water? >> > My "lackey" is pushing 82 and wants to try it on an engine "without all > of that science stuff". :-) I see :) Measuring temperature rise of a bucketful of water is not excessively "science stuff" though. BTW do you really mean "lackey"? The term is quite pejorative isn't it? (I guess he must not be listening to this list, but still...) >> >> Er BTW if haven't done any calorimetry on the gas, what was the Eout in > the Ein/Eout=4 ratio you told us about? >> > I didn't say anything along those lines, did I? You made me doubt so I searched for "energy out" in your past posts and dug it out for you (17 May): "I'll let my lackey(1800 miles away) finish running the stainlees steel Joe Cell type plate-stack experiment where present power in/power.out is 4.0" Michel > Only that adding bicab of > soda and borax upped the current > from 2.0 milliamperes to over 800. >> >> Michel >> >> P.S. About the salt lake lifting experiment, I guess it could be tried in > one's bath tub to see how it feels, the good old Archemedes way ;) >> > Nah. not enough variety of minerals, Michel, and son-in-law said walking > on soft crystals along the shore was therapeutic for his feet, which are > large > enough that he doesn't need water skis. :-) > > Fred >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: "vortex-l" >> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:43 AM >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> >> > BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) >> > with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) with >> > NaHCO3-Borax >> > "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we >> > haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. >> > >> > As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on >> > a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) >> > left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. >> > He found it a lifting experience. >> > Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people floating >> > on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law > points >> > for him. :-) >> > >> > Fred >> > >> > >> >> [Original Message] >> >> From: Frederick Sparber >> >> To: >> >> Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM >> >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > >> >> > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in > your >> >> own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away >> >> wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being > only >> >> a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is > possible >> >> BTW. >> >> > >> >> Joe Cell Seminar >> >> July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA >> >> Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference >> >> 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm >> >> >> >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ >> >> >> >> "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on >> > vehicles >> >> for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed >> >> around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, > and >> >> 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them >> >> improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and >> > knows >> >> off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line >> >> disconnected." >> >> >> >> Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) >> >> >> >> Fred >> >> > >> >> > Michel >> >> snip > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 03:59:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TAwuvw030845; Mon, 29 May 2006 03:58:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TAwr09030799; Mon, 29 May 2006 03:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:58:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jmO9pDhW6i42v9iaHA3J6g82G4DEtCRFp6d9SsEczqD4azaDCtz5f0gv+sxZdZGF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065129105837436@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 04:58:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400eb83f0ffdec98123963e6dfb689ec55350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.91 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> About calorimetry on the gas, I was wondering, could it be as simple as > > slow-burning it underwater as it is produced, in a torch whose tip is > > deeply immersed in a calorimetered bucket of water? > >> > > My "lackey" is pushing 82 and wants to try it on an engine "without all > > of that science stuff". :-) > > I see :) Measuring temperature rise of a bucketful of water is not excessively "science stuff" though. BTW do you really mean "lackey"? The term is quite pejorative isn't it? (I guess he must not be listening to this list, but still...) > We will be venting the gas from a balloon inflated from the pressurized electrolysis chamber into a water-detergent filled pan and lighting the bubbles. I suppose the calorimetry could be worked into. "Lackey" is my way of teasing a close friend of 55 years. He was an Air Force staff sergeant (Africa-France campaign WW II) while I was a lowly Army Private First Class while we were stationed next to Sandia Labs keeping the communications between weapons sites up and running. BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high surface area electrodes. We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes. http://www.metalfoam.net/papers/paserin2004.pdf Fred > >> > >> Er BTW if haven't done any calorimetry on the gas, what was the Eout in > > the Ein/Eout=4 ratio you told us about? > >> > > I didn't say anything along those lines, did I? > > You made me doubt so I searched for "energy out" in your past posts and dug it out for you (17 May): > "I'll let my lackey(1800 miles away) finish running > the stainlees steel Joe Cell type plate-stack experiment where present > power in/power.out is 4.0" > > Michel > > > Only that adding bicab of > > soda and borax upped the current > > from 2.0 milliamperes to over 800. > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> P.S. About the salt lake lifting experiment, I guess it could be tried in > > one's bath tub to see how it feels, the good old Archemedes way ;) > >> > > Nah. not enough variety of minerals, Michel, and son-in-law said walking > > on soft crystals along the shore was therapeutic for his feet, which are > > large > > enough that he doesn't need water skis. :-) > > > > Fred > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> To: "vortex-l" > >> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:43 AM > >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > >> > >> > >> > BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) > >> > with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) with > >> > NaHCO3-Borax > >> > "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we > >> > haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. > >> > > >> > As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on > >> > a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) > >> > left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. > >> > He found it a lifting experience. > >> > Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people floating > >> > on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law > > points > >> > for him. :-) > >> > > >> > Fred > >> > > >> > > >> >> [Original Message] > >> >> From: Frederick Sparber > >> >> To: > >> >> Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > >> >> > >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they in > > your > >> >> own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles away > >> >> wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out being > > only > >> >> a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is > > possible > >> >> BTW. > >> >> > > >> >> Joe Cell Seminar > >> >> July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > >> >> Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference > >> >> 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm > >> >> > >> >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ > >> >> > >> >> "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on > >> > vehicles > >> >> for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has installed > >> >> around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe cell, > > and > >> >> 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them > >> >> improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with and > >> > knows > >> >> off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line > >> >> disconnected." > >> >> > >> >> Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) > >> >> > >> >> Fred > >> >> > > >> >> > Michel > >> > >> snip > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 04:29:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TBTQwM013340; Mon, 29 May 2006 04:29:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TBTNw0013312; Mon, 29 May 2006 04:29:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 04:29:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:29:55 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 07:30:01 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 07:30:02 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up. Below I referenced the James Randi Educational Foundation "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge". Surely after 17 years of research there should now be a way to produce an absolutely bulletproof demonstration of cold fusion for these guys. Or some other experiment showing nuclear effects at chemical energies, the hallmark of CF. Never mind the technical complications. Every problem can be worked out if you're willing to actually do the work, in consultation with Randi's reps. If you are convinced you can demonstrate cold fusion you can then take a loan on your house for equipment with the certain knowledge that the prize money will cover it all, even after taxes. With a little left over for a vacation to escape the press. Cold fusion needs a hero. Instead of complaining that "Nature" won't consider your paper, take THEIR hero Randi's million bucks! I may hear some excuses on this list. But I'm betting I'll instead hear nothing. -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 04:49:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TBnDuD022267; Mon, 29 May 2006 04:49:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TBn7QS022222; Mon, 29 May 2006 04:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 04:49:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KVyoh35iGFU2SobswKO64EM1oxDa01nSqFJvnzerYryYchIQv1L6XzCo3mFc1ae8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065129114849524@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:48:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94034e0215584f8de5daac50df0c01513a6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.2 Resent-Message-ID: <7_X0fC.A.EbF.y-teEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If I could only stay ahead of the Jones the Cheshire Cat of Vortex. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_cat "The Cheshire Cat is a fictional cat appearing in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland. It appears and disappears at will, engaging Alice in amusing but sometimes vexing conversation. The cat often points out philosophical points that annoy Alice." BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high surface area electrodes. We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes. http://www.metalfoam.net/papers/paserin2004.pdf Regards. "Alice" ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/29/2006 2:14:00 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc > > OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been > exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound > O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) > and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. > Typically Raney Nickel has a surface area of 100 Square Meters per Gram. A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked with hot water heated off the engine with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed should make an interesting water burner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 E = 35.31 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If I could only stay ahead of the Jones the Cheshire Cat of Vortex.  :-)
 
 
"The Cheshire Cat is a fictional cat appearing in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland. It appears and disappears at will, engaging Alice in amusing but sometimes vexing conversation. The cat often points out philosophical points that annoy Alice."
 
BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high
surface area electrodes.
We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes.
 
 
Regards.
 
"Alice"   
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/29/2006 2:14:00 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc

>
> OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been
> exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound
> O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy)
> and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH.
>
Typically Raney Nickel has  a surface area of 100 Square Meters
per Gram.
 
A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a 
nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked with hot water heated off the engine
with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed
should make an interesting water burner.
 
 
 
H-OH     - 56.687
OH          + 8.18
HO-OH   - 28.78
H               +48.58
H2              0.00
O               + 55.39
O2              0.00
 
H + OH + E  =  H-OH
                   E = - 56.69 + 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073
 
2 H-OH + O2 +  E =  4 OH  
                              E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18)
                               E = 113.374 + 32.72
                               E = 146.094
 
4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH
               E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18)
               E = - 24.84
 
2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2
                      E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78)
                      E = - 113.374 + 28.78 + 28.78
                      E = - 55.814
 
OTOH, on Nickel and/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been
exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound
O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy)
 and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH.
 
See around pages 305 and up:
 
 
Then 2 H-OH + 2 O  =  4 OH
 
2 H-OH + 2 O + E =  4 OH
                              E = 113.37 - 110.78 +32.72 
                              E = 35.31
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 05:21:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TCLesX007043; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:21:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TCLcqr007031; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:21:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:21:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <057101c6831a$6ec80b30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220065129105837436@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:21:37 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> >> > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> >> About calorimetry on the gas, I was wondering, could it be as simple >> >> as >> > slow-burning it underwater as it is produced, in a torch whose tip is >> > deeply immersed in a calorimetered bucket of water? >> >> >> > My "lackey" is pushing 82 and wants to try it on an engine "without all >> > of that science stuff". :-) >> >> I see :) Measuring temperature rise of a bucketful of water is not > excessively "science stuff" though. BTW do you really mean "lackey"? The > term is quite pejorative isn't it? (I guess he must not be listening to > this list, but still...) >> > We will be venting the gas from a balloon inflated from the pressurized > electrolysis > chamber into a water-detergent filled pan and lighting the bubbles. Should make splendid pops :) > I suppose the calorimetry could be worked into. Should be easy since the flame will burn nicely underwater. Maybe the flame could heat an immersed heat sink from underneath to spread out the heat. Evaporated mass calorimetry (1g = 2260J at 1 atmosphere) would be even better than delta-T calorimetry, as it would allow long runs and wouldn't require more than a thermos bottle and a kitchen scale (no "science stuff" ;) > "Lackey" is my way of teasing a close friend of 55 years. If that's ok with him... > He was an Air > Force > staff sergeant (Africa-France campaign WW II) while I was a lowly Army > Private First > Class while we were stationed next to Sandia Labs keeping the > communications > between weapons sites up and running. > > BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high > surface area electrodes. > We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes. The pb is, foam would retain the bubbles. Michel > > http://www.metalfoam.net/papers/paserin2004.pdf > > Fred >> >> >> >> Er BTW if haven't done any calorimetry on the gas, what was the Eout >> >> in >> > the Ein/Eout=4 ratio you told us about? >> >> >> > I didn't say anything along those lines, did I? >> >> You made me doubt so I searched for "energy out" in your past posts and > dug it out for you (17 May): >> "I'll let my lackey(1800 miles away) finish running >> the stainlees steel Joe Cell type plate-stack experiment where present >> power in/power.out is 4.0" >> >> Michel >> >> > Only that adding bicab of >> > soda and borax upped the current >> > from 2.0 milliamperes to over 800. >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> P.S. About the salt lake lifting experiment, I guess it could be tried > in >> > one's bath tub to see how it feels, the good old Archemedes way ;) >> >> >> > Nah. not enough variety of minerals, Michel, and son-in-law said >> > walking >> > on soft crystals along the shore was therapeutic for his feet, which >> > are >> > large >> > enough that he doesn't need water skis. :-) >> > >> > Fred >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> To: "vortex-l" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:43 AM >> >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> >> >> >> >> > BTW, Michel, our flat plate (12 SS plates about 70 cm^2 spaced 1 cm) >> >> > with ~12 volts on the end plates (11 series cells at ~ 1.0 volts) > with >> >> > NaHCO3-Borax >> >> > "catalyst" draws ~ 0.8 amps and produces copious gas, but we >> >> > haven't done calorimetry on the gas yet. >> >> > >> >> > As an aside, on a recent swing through Salt Lake city on >> >> > a corporate business trip my son-in-law (still a kid at 50) >> >> > left a day ahead so he could try a swim in the Great Salt Lake. >> >> > He found it a lifting experience. >> >> > Ever since the 5th grade (1943) when I saw a picture of people > floating >> >> > on top of the lake I've wanted to try that. Chalk up many son-in-law >> > points >> >> > for him. :-) >> >> > >> >> > Fred >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> [Original Message] >> >> >> From: Frederick Sparber >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Date: 5/29/2006 2:18:27 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode >> >> >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > You guys are talking about Joe Cells as if they worked, do they >> >> >> > in >> > your >> >> >> own experience? Last news we had from your experiment 1800 miles > away >> >> >> wasn't encouraging IIRC was it Fred? Something about energy out > being >> > only >> >> >> a quarter of energy in, which I don't quite understand how it is >> > possible >> >> >> BTW. >> >> >> > >> >> >> Joe Cell Seminar >> >> >> July 30, 2006; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA >> >> >> Immediately Following the ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference >> >> >> 12:30 pm - 5:30 pm >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/ >> >> >> >> >> >> "Peter Stevens, of NSW Australia, has been installing Joe cells on >> >> > vehicles >> >> >> for about 14 years. In that time, he estimates that he has > installed >> >> >> around 80 cells, 40-50 of which are exclusively running on a Joe > cell, >> > and >> >> >> 30-40 of which were installed to assist diesel engines, giving them >> >> >> improved efficiency of as much as 50%. He has kept in touch with > and >> >> > knows >> >> >> off the top of his head of about 15 cars running with fuel line >> >> >> disconnected." >> >> >> >> >> >> Taken with a gram of table salt, Michel. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Fred >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Michel >> >> >> >> snip >> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 05:26:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TCQd2Z010292; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:26:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TCQbf1010263; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:26:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:26:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <057801c6831b$21369a20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 14:26:36 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Would CF qualify as "paranormal"? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Faxon" To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 1:29 PM Subject: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up > Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up. > > Below I referenced the James Randi Educational Foundation "One Million > Dollar Paranormal Challenge". Surely after 17 years of research there > should now be a way to produce an absolutely bulletproof demonstration of > cold fusion for these guys. Or some other experiment showing nuclear > effects at chemical energies, the hallmark of CF. > > Never mind the technical complications. Every problem can be worked out > if you're willing to actually do the work, in consultation with Randi's > reps. If you are convinced you can demonstrate cold fusion you can then > take a loan on your house for equipment with the certain knowledge that > the prize money will cover it all, even after taxes. With a little left > over for a vacation to escape the press. > > Cold fusion needs a hero. Instead of complaining that "Nature" won't > consider your paper, take THEIR hero Randi's million bucks! > > I may hear some excuses on this list. But I'm betting I'll instead hear > nothing. > > -Walter > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 05:37:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TCbIWi014924; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:37:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TCbHTL014910; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:37:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:37:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XLJ23rYVaOkTb2Miw2Guo7XSrezSrRcjxa47/Jk7XL9zbaD5NL7rawn9nj4tqEeU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200651291237420@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 06:37:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940668af96528e87751dce1bea5020c2a5c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > Would CF qualify as "paranormal"? > Probably not, but, it's advocates might. :-) Fred > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 05:52:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TCq92O021583; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:52:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TCq7Ue021561; Mon, 29 May 2006 05:52:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:52:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fQskjLAINtNXPM/DGZrNIP/odA7tM8FfAwoG9ksOsdkujL3vMem/kt3tNRaQ5otI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065129125159968@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 06:51:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94073be94f70f3a1472461384c3a597c398350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 12:58 PM > Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode > > > We will be venting the gas from a balloon inflated from the pressurized > > electrolysis > > chamber into a water-detergent filled pan and lighting the bubbles. > > Should make splendid pops :) > > > I suppose the calorimetry could be worked into. > > Should be easy since the flame will burn nicely underwater. Maybe the flame > could heat an immersed heat sink from underneath to spread out the heat. > Evaporated mass calorimetry (1g = 2260J at 1 atmosphere) would be even > better than delta-T calorimetry, as it would allow long runs and wouldn't > require more than a thermos bottle and a kitchen scale (no "science stuff" > ;) > I'll give that more thought. > > > > > BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high > > surface area electrodes > > > > http://www.metalfoam.net/papers/paserin2004.pdf > > > > We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes. > > The pb is, foam would retain the bubbles. > Perhaps not near the surface where the action is, with the nickel foam at the electrode potential: F F F (F = floated plates) Cathode of Ni Foam Plate -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ Anode of Ni Foam Plate Fred > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 06:09:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TD9GDV029455; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:09:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TD9Bul029419; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:09:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 06:09:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:09:40 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 09:09:48 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 09:09:50 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You didn't go down the page and read my prior message, did you? How much research would that have taken? Here is the link to it: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13591.html And here is my email exchange with Mr. Randi: ---------- From: Walter Faxon Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 3:42 PM To: challenge@randi.org Subject: Quick question Hello. Just a quick question: For the purposes of the "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge", does "cold fusion" or related phenomena such as low-energy "transmutation" fall under the category of "paranormal"? Mr. Randi has numerous times asked for inventors of perpetual motion machines to apply to take the Challenge and such machines would also violate accepted physical law, like "cold fusion". I acknowledge that a response to this inquiry in no way binds JREF to anything. Thank you. Walter Faxon ---------- From: "James Randi" To: "Walter Faxon" Date: 05/23/2006 03:38 PM Subject: RE: Quick question Yes, it would qualify, since it would be paranormal by definition. I've said this numerous times to those who accept "cold fusion," including Pons, and they have ignored the offer... That says much, I believe. James Randi. ---------- END From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 06:32:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TDVqqX007636; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:31:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TDVoJs007619; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:31:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 06:31:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200605291331.k4TDVngU052058@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:31:49 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_71c3014ff0875ce2d13957b62585aa23" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_71c3014ff0875ce2d13957b62585aa23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Walter Faxon > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 3:42 PM > To: challenge@randi.org > Subject: Quick question > > Hello. Just a quick question: > > For the purposes of the "One Million Dollar Paranormal > Challenge", does "cold fusion" or related phenomena such > as low-energy "transmutation" fall under the category of > "paranormal"? Mr. Randi has numerous times asked for > inventors of perpetual motion machines to apply to take > the Challenge and such machines would also violate > accepted physical law, like "cold fusion". > > I acknowledge that a response to this inquiry in no way > binds JREF to anything. > > Thank you. > > Walter Faxon > > ---------- > From: "James Randi" > To: "Walter Faxon" > Date: 05/23/2006 03:38 PM > Subject: RE: Quick question > > Yes, it would qualify, since it would be paranormal by > definition. I've said this numerous times to those who > accept "cold fusion," including Pons, and they have > ignored the offer... That says much, I believe. > > James Randi. > > ---------- > END For a starter, I think Mitsubishi should collect their million dollar check from Randi for their definitive work in collecting convincing evidence of transmutation. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_71c3014ff0875ce2d13957b62585aa23 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From: Walter Faxon
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 3:42 PM
> To: challenge@randi.org
> Subject: Quick question
>
> Hello. Just a quick question:
>
> For the purposes of the "One Million Dollar Paranormal
> Challenge", does "cold fusion" or related phenomena such
> as low-energy "transmutation" fall under the category of
> "paranormal"? Mr. Randi has numerous times asked for
> inventors of perpetual motion machines to apply to take
> the Challenge and such machines would also violate
> accepted physical law, like "cold fusion".
>
> I acknowledge that a response to this inquiry in no way
> binds JREF to anything.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Walter Faxon
>
> ----------
> From: "James Randi"
> To: "Walter Faxon"
> Date: 05/23/2006 03:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Quick question
>
> Yes, it would qualify, since it would be paranormal by
> definition. I've said this numerous times to those who
> accept "cold fusion," including Pons, and they have
> ignored the offer... That says much, I believe.
>
> James Randi.
>
> ----------
> END

For a starter, I think Mitsubishi should collect their million dollar check= from Randi for their definitive work in collecting convincing evidence of = transmutation.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_71c3014ff0875ce2d13957b62585aa23-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 06:32:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TDWelY008000; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:32:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TDWcCB007980; Mon, 29 May 2006 06:32:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 06:32:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060529092302.01fd9d58@localhost> X-Sender: mica%pop.theworld.com@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:31:59 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=10.0 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ALL_TRUSTED, AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on pcls2.std.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1495/Mon May 29 03:10:34 2006 on pcls2.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4TDWZtc007950 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:29 AM 5/29/2006 -0400, Walter Faxxon wrote: "Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up. Below I referenced the James Randi Educational Foundation "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge". Surely after 17 years of research there should now be a way to produce an absolutely bulletproof demonstration of cold fusion for these guys. Or some other experiment showing nuclear effects at chemical energies, the hallmark of CF. Never mind the technical complications. Every problem can be worked out if you're willing to actually do the work, in consultation with Randi's reps. If you are convinced you can demonstrate cold fusion you can then take a loan on your house for equipment with the certain knowledge that the prize money will cover it all, even after taxes. With a little left over for a vacation to escape the press. Cold fusion needs a hero. Instead of complaining that "Nature" won't consider your paper, take THEIR hero Randi's million bucks! I may hear some excuses on this list. But I'm betting I'll instead hear nothing. -Walter" First, Cold Fusion researchers have been putting up with vicious unsubstantiated attacks for 17 years from the likes of Randi, Park and the Editor of Nature. And even in that light these cold fusion researchers have developed highly improved systems, many of which have been reported at the COLD FUSION TIMES web-site (1) and elsewhere. Second, Randi is an apparent magician, from a profession that uses tricks to fool people. By contrast, cold fusion is a science, where experiments test hypotheses. Scientists and engineers should never lower themselves to the level of a magician or trickster. Third, the so-called challenge is for a test of the "paranormal", and as stated above, real scientists know that cold fusion is science and engineering, and not "paranormal by definition" as your recent missive states, Randi the magician declares. This difference of science vs. paranormal would be used by Randi as an excuse not to pay up. Most importantly, Randi "the magician" uses his web-site to demean Dr. Mallove, even after his murder. Using quotes from the unhinged Bob Park (2), Randi's website states (3), "COLD FUSION: J... The Department of Energy (DOE) recently announced that cold fusion research will be reviewed, and believers imagined they'd been vindicated. Wilson says Eugene Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine assured him that the experimental evidence for cold fusion is too compelling for DOE to ignore. Mallove couldn't be reached for comment." Couldn't be reached for comment? This was written after the brutal murder of Dr. Mallove two years ago, which was widely publicized, and which both Randi and Park knew about when this odious statement that "Mallove couldn't be reached for comment" was written, three months after Dr. Mallove murder (4). Therefore, both Randi and Park, by using such a low level attack on a murdered individual --whom they knew was murdered-- owe Dr. Mallove's family and the entire cold fusion community, apologies for each which should be forthcoming before anyone of conscience has anything to do with either of them. =========================================================== 1) COLD FUSION TIMES website http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html 2) Tom Valone's 6-year, cold fusion, IRI and COFE-centered, arbitration battle with the USPTO and others who have worked to destroy the development of cold fusion in the United States led to a decision [obtainable at the COLD FUSION TIMES web-site]. From the Decision: "What there is evidence of is "harassment, or bad faith, malice or provocation on the part of others involved in the matter," and it came in bundles. The activities and motives of Park and Zimmerman have been extensively recounted and explained, and with regard to the cancellation of grievant's State Department, Secretary's Open Forum presentation, deplorable. The malice shown by Park in his solely economic driven campaign to block any of the nontraditional scientists from receiving recognition by any government agency as having an idea worthy of a slice of government R&D funding may be a point of pride within the APS. But to an outsider who champions free and open exploration of any scientific thought, no matter how far out on the fringe, his conduct is outrageous. The worth of a new idea is to be determined in the democratic and open arena of competing thoughts, and not blocked from the arena by the greedy economic self-interest of those already in the limelight." "Seemingly lost on those with control over slicing the government pie who are persuaded by the relentless drumbeat of the Parks and Zimmermans, is that those questing for "free energy," whether through cold fusion or by way of some other "emerging technology," may be similar to the alchemists of centuries back who never turned base metals into gold, but were the forerun­ners of modern chemistry, got the Periodic Table of Elements off to a start, and among all things, discovered how to duplicate Asian porcelain which at the time was worth more than its weight in gold.. So too, those in pursuit of "free energy" could well spinoff useful advances in knowledge while failing to achieve their "holy grail." .... " 3) http://www.randi.org/jr/081304permit.html 4) http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn080604.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:13:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEDS5F031001; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:13:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEDR0Y030983; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:13:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:13:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:13:21 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C851412CE08645-CF0-1102D@mblkn-m11.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Still Another Bettery? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.129 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news67796415.html "Russian scientists have invented a battery that can capture energy not only from the sun, but also from the stars, the head of a research institute at the Dubna Nuclear Institute, near Moscow, said. "The scientists have successfully created a new substance," Valentin Samoilov announced, "thanks to which this battery can work on earth, independently of meteorological conditions, using solar and stellar energy. "This is a battery like no other," Samoilov, who head's the Institute's center for applied research, told the Itar-Tass news agency, explaining that it could function 24 hours a day and was twice as effective as an ordinary solar panel at converting light into electricity. Moreover, Samoilov declared, the new battery was cheaper than a solar panel. <><><><><><> Okay, another Ruskie hoax? Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:15:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEFQ2p032013; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:15:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEFLp5031971; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:15:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:15:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529100558.03cf1330@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:15:22 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2R8lZ.A.ezH.4HweEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: >Surely after 17 years of research there should now be a way to >produce an absolutely bulletproof demonstration of cold fusion for these guys. There are several ways, but I doubt they would believe any of them, because it takes some expertise to understand what is going on in a cold fusion experiment. For example, hypothetically they might go to the Spring8 facility to watch an Iwamura experiment, but it does not look like much and the results show up in the data days or months later. >Never mind the technical complications. Every problem can be worked >out if you're willing to actually do the work . . . If that were true, we would have plasma fusion power reactors by now. Roughly $100 billion has been spent on that research. We would also have Josephson-junction computers, practical artificial intelligence, and a cure for AIDS. >. . . in consultation with Randi's reps. I doubt these people are qualified. If they are not already convinced by the published results, they are definitely not qualified. >If you are convinced you can demonstrate cold fusion you can then >take a loan on your house for equipment with the certain knowledge that >the prize money will cover it all, even after taxes. I do not believe for one second that these people would actually pay any prize money. If they would, they should have paid it years ago to Mizuno, Storms, McKubre, Miles or any of 200 others who have demonstrated the cold fusion effect beyond any rational doubt. Frankly, anyone who does not believe the results published in the peer-reviewed literature is not a scientist and will probably not be convinced by anything short of a commercial product. It is a waste of time trying to convince such people. I think it is best to ignore them. >Cold fusion needs a hero. Instead of complaining that "Nature" >won't consider your paper, take THEIR hero Randi's million bucks! Cold fusion has hundreds of heros already, including many people who sacrificed their careers and hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own money to conduct research. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:30:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEUMff006787; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:30:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEUB8A006603; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:30:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:30:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529102338.03f6c630@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:30:03 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <553VHC.A.2mB.yVweEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: >Surely after 17 years of research there should now be a way to >produce an absolutely bulletproof demonstration of cold fusion for these guys. Actually, if you are looking for simple, undeniable, bulletproof evidence that cold fusion is real, you need look no further than here: http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#AutoradiographsMSrinivasan Srinivasan's autoradiograph constitutes undeniable proof that a nuclear reaction took place. Either that, or several dozen of India's top scientists, including the former Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, are engaged in an incredible conspiracy to commit fraud for no conceivable reason. (People who go with the "conspiracy " hypothesis will believe any damn thing rather than the truth.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:37:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEbWH5010386; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:37:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEbUQ8010367; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:37:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:37:56 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 10:38:08 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Mon, 29 May 2006 10:38:10 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: > For a starter, I think Mitsubishi should collect their > million dollar check from Randi for their definitive work > in collecting convincing evidence of transmutation. Really! Where in the Challenge rules do you see that? Part of Rule 2 reads: "Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered." http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html ---------- Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Scientists and engineers should never lower themselves to > the level of a magician or trickster. ...etc...etc...etc... Yay! I was right! I'm hearing excuses! Excuses just like the TV psychics use! Please consider cooling off, reading the Challenge rules and doing some thinking about how to show Randi up. Fulminating here won't impress many people. -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:49:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEnQFR019817; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:49:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEnNs4019788; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:49:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060529104801.01f259e8@localhost> X-Sender: mica%pop.theworld.com@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:49:26 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on pcls2.std.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1496/Mon May 29 06:43:13 2006 on pcls2.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:37 AM 5/29/2006 -0400, Walter Faxxon wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > Scientists and engineers should never lower themselves to > > the level of a magician or trickster. >...etc...etc...etc... > >Yay! I was right! I'm hearing excuses! Excuses just like the TV >psychics use! > >Please consider cooling off, reading the Challenge rules and doing some >thinking about how to show Randi up. Fulminating here won't impress many >people. > >-Walter We gave an open demonstration at MIT of cold fusion for a week during ICCF-10 in August 2003. Apparently the pathologic skeptics, like yourself, were either afraid, or too busy, to show up. http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html The rest of my comments stand, albeit ignored by you. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:50:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEoJl4020336; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:50:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEoGDd020303; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:50:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=U+vWT1w0IBil4y99UBg7yJcQ/dCXB9pc08lf9VzfvQqCSa4Lc5sRmqSUwrM4r+rL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065129144959998@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Still Another Bettery? Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:49:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cdbb7bf2483ecde39a7cd040aa5caf7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote: > > http://www.physorg.com/news67796415.html > Should work great on moonshine too. > > "Russian scientists have invented a battery that can capture energy not > only from the sun, but also from the stars, the head of a research > institute at the Dubna Nuclear Institute, near Moscow, said. > > "The scientists have successfully created a new substance," Valentin > Samoilov announced, "thanks to which this battery can work on earth, > independently of meteorological conditions, using solar and stellar > energy. > > "This is a battery like no other," Samoilov, who head's the Institute's > center for applied research, told the Itar-Tass news agency, explaining > that it could function 24 hours a day and was twice as effective as an > ordinary solar panel at converting light into electricity. > > Moreover, Samoilov declared, the new battery was cheaper than a solar > panel. > > <><><><><><> > > Okay, another Ruskie hoax? > > Terry > > ___________________________________________________ > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 07:54:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TEsDCl023255; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:54:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TEsArg023219; Mon, 29 May 2006 07:54:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:54:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529104128.03e8ee68@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:54:10 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3515671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3515671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Walter Faxon wrote: > > For a starter, I think Mitsubishi should collect their > > million dollar check from Randi for their definitive work > > in collecting convincing evidence of transmutation. > >Really! Where in the Challenge rules do you see that? Part of Rule 2 reads: > >"Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered." A peer-reviewed paper published in Japan's most prestigious journal of physics is not anecdotal evidence. It is the best scientific evidence you can ask for. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf If you do not believe this, or you reject it as "anecdotal" then you would not believe an actual live demonstration, either, because a live demonstration is essentially no different from reading a paper. In both cases you have to understand some basic physics and you have to interpret instrument readings to reach a conclusion. This is true of all cold fusion results, even massive excess heat. In all experiments other than Mizuno's heat after death event and the 8 explosions, the researcher might have added the heat with the internal joule heater or with electrolysis. Even if you watched the experiment under way you would not know for certain it was not fake unless you use your own instruments, and that is not an option in most cases. You cannot start disassembling the calorimeters used by McKubre or Mizuno midway through an experiment. The autoradiograph I referenced could also be fake, for that matter. It would not be difficult to expose x-ray film to an ordinary irradiated sample and claim that it was a cold fusion cathode. The only way to prove that all experiments are not fake is to ask yourself why on earth hundreds of professional scientists worldwide -- including some of the most distinguished on earth -- would engage in fake research for 17 years. If you cannot think of any reason why then you should dismiss the hypothesis. Frankly, I think it is about as plausible as the notion that the US government engineered the 9/11 attacks (which I do not for 1 nanosecond believe). Perhaps Randi believes such things, but I do not. - Jed --=====================_3515671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Walter Faxon wrote:

> For a starter, I think Mitsubishi should collect their
> million dollar check from Randi for their definitive work
> in collecting convincing evidence of transmutation.

Really!  Where in the Challenge rules do you see that?  Part of Rule 2 reads:

"Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered."

A peer-reviewed paper published in Japan's most prestigious journal of physics is not anecdotal evidence. It is the best scientific evidence you can ask for. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf

If you do not believe this, or you reject it as "anecdotal" then you would not believe an actual live demonstration, either, because a live demonstration is essentially no different from reading a paper. In both cases you have to understand some basic physics and you have to interpret instrument readings to reach a conclusion. This is true of all cold fusion results, even massive excess heat. In all experiments other than Mizuno's heat after death event and the 8 explosions, the researcher might have added the heat with the internal joule heater or with electrolysis. Even if you watched the experiment under way you would not know for certain it was not fake unless you use your own instruments, and that is not an option in most cases.  You cannot start disassembling the calorimeters used by McKubre or Mizuno midway through an experiment.

The autoradiograph I referenced could also be fake, for that matter. It would not be difficult to expose x-ray film to an ordinary irradiated sample and claim that it was a cold fusion cathode. The only way to prove that all experiments are not fake is to ask yourself why on earth hundreds of professional scientists worldwide -- including some of the most distinguished on earth -- would engage in fake research for 17 years. If you cannot think of any reason why then you should dismiss the hypothesis. Frankly, I think it is about as plausible as the notion that the US government engineered the 9/11 attacks (which I do not for 1 nanosecond believe). Perhaps Randi believes such things, but I do not.

- Jed
--=====================_3515671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 08:10:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TFADlR002094; Mon, 29 May 2006 08:10:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TFACAN002080; Mon, 29 May 2006 08:10:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:10:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=TXdVqF6TGA66TiOaJZ4GrfthwkQo5zwig1dxtbscFwbhp84qMrCLVblMV1o4XNaWvqz3fwxlhFNqNxYYtH/MDhVhXhZCT4fw+lp1NBUZgHKngDhh+iFNjctPd4ydG51KtT7+u9mf3kmI+NdOtJ4VfBbtjNsb2EzT/fMciAxErXQ= ; Message-ID: <20060529151011.52815.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-220065129105837436@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lots of messages today on belief & skepticism in alternative energy. To be expected: after all, the 'cutting edge' and the 'bleeding edge' are the objective and subjective ways of looking at the same delicate interface. This inherent level of doubt is inevitable in the early stages of any breakthrough field: LENR, hydrinos, ZPE conversion, or ultra-efficient electrolysis - all of which have some level of ingrained truth and some level of self-deception and misdirection attached. And curiously - all of these sub-fields may have an overlap in the plethora of seemingly disparate investigations - particularly 'ultra-efficient electrolysis.' It is 'new physics' plain and simple - and we must abandon not only mainstream guidance, but also the 'one who brung you' so to speak of the crudeness of prior art. One does not necessarily need to believe in the present objective proof of a crude device like the Joe-Cell to further investigate what is going on. It is called 'suspension of disbelief'. In fact, personally I do not believe that any such Cell has ever powered an ICE without getting most of the energy from a replinished surface layer hydrocarbons, such as crankcase oil. That is the beauty of hydrogen as a fuel - it is so 'mobile' in this kind of high compression combustion situation (ICE) that it allows the very efficient burning of any available hydrocarbon, including lubrication oil. If any crude device can be understood as evidence of ultra-efficient electrolysis (and there is zero real proof of that for now) - then even the secondary ability to produce enough hydrogen to burn-off a layer of surface oil becomes important in a hybrid scheme. The fact that a particular device, like a few of these cells, has gotten that close to a real anomaly - i.e. to some level of success, often indicates that there is much room for improvement over the primitive level of design being used previously... and this fact of much 'room for improvement' is despite the irrelevant fact that some joker has made 80 or 80,000 of them in a certain incorrect way. They might as well be mojo bags, for all that prior art is worth - except for the serendipitous discovery of 'something novel' ... which has been completely overlooked by the practioneers due their lack of knowledge of physics and focus on 'orgone' or related hocus-pocus. Certainly very little science, and much superstition, has been involved in those most (not all) of those past efforts - which nevertheless may yet serve to point the way, serendipitously, but should not be copied as if they were the product of directed R&D, and certainly not considered to be evidence of years of 'trial and error' HA! nor should they be endorsed by anyone who wants to achieve real success - just because they may have pointed the way towards what is 'really' going on. There is the possibility of achieving something valuable and unique here, in this sub-field which can be termed as 'eltra-efficient electrolysis' and it may be drivaive and based roughly on these crude early designs, but the end product will surely be very different from any of them. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 09:42:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TGgY1s020074; Mon, 29 May 2006 09:42:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TGgP4j019964; Mon, 29 May 2006 09:42:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:42:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529123653.03e8ee68@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:38:44 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates . . . to be continued In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529104128.03e8ee68@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529104128.03e8ee68@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Walter Faxon contacted me to say that his main ISP is down, so he cannot post messages to Vortex. He will continue this conversation tomorrow. I think he is partially playing the devil's advocate, which is welcome. I cleaned up some of the messages I wrote here, combined them together, and sent them off to Randi. I do not have ESP but I have a strong premonition that Randi will not respond, and that Randi knows nothing about calorimetry, chemistry or physics. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 09:51:31 2006 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TGpP3s002317; Mon, 29 May 2006 09:51:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TGpOQb002299; Mon, 29 May 2006 09:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:51:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: Willie Message-ID: <90393098.20060529112415@eskimo.com> From: Willie To: Subject: Spring Action! 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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 10:04:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TH3eLk030820; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:03:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TH3bGC030795; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:03:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:03:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529130206.03e3f2f0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529124538.03f7ac50@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:03:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Randi's response Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4TH3Txq030737 Resent-Message-ID: <6f1C6D.A.9gH.olyeEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My ESP failed me. Randi did respond. See attached. - JR - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "James Randi" To: Subject: Jed, the JREF has the American Physical Society – founded in 1899, and now at 43,000 members worldwide – who would supervise any test of “cold fusion.” Is that authority not enough for you…? We at the JREF never assumed any expertise in this matter; as always, we refer to authoritative experts. Don’t put false claims in our mouth, please. James Randi. James Randi Educational Foundation 201 S.E. 12th Street Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA 33316-1815 phone: 954-467-1112 fax phone: 954-467-1660 web page: www.randi.org e-mail: randi@randi.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - You wrote: >Jed, the JREF has the American Physical Society >– founded in 1899, and now at 43,000 members >worldwide – who would supervise any test of >“cold fusion.” Is that authority not enough for you…? How about the Physical Society of Japan? It was founded in 1877, and it publishes the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (JJAP) -- their flagship journal. JJAP, as I mentioned, published the Iwamura paper and many others about cold fusion, including a special issue devoted to the subject. Is that not authority enough for you? If not, why not? Have you or your experts read and critiqued the JJAP papers? Did they find any technical errors? There are roughly 1,000 other peer-reviewed cold fusion papers in other leading journals, such as J. Electroanal. Chem. and Naturwiss. How many of them have your experts reviewed, and how of these reviews were published in the peer-reviewed literature? If you know of any members of the APS who have written critiques of cold fusion, please point them out to me. I have read hundreds of papers and books, including probably every skeptical paper. I do not know of any from the APS. In fact, I know of only three that passed peer-review. I do not think these papers have any merit, but I can give you a list and you can judge for yourself. A critique of a peer-reviewed paper must be held to the same standard of rigor as the paper. Disbelief does not get a free pass. Many skeptics have said that the burden of proof is on cold fusion researchers to prove their point. As the editor of the Scientific American put it: "But it is not up to mainstream physicists to disprove LENR-CANR [cold fusion]; it is up to LENR-CANR's physicists to come up with convincing proofs. The burden of evidence is on those who wish to establish a new proposition." Cold fusion researchers feel they have met this burden. Cold fusion experiments are based upon traditional instruments and techniques, such as calorimeters (most of them developed between the 1780 and 1840), autoradiographs (circa 1890), and conventional tritium detection and mass spectroscopy. Calorimetry is based upon the laws of thermodynamics. Since most skeptics agree that autoradiographs, the laws of thermodynamics and so on are valid, cold fusion researchers argue that the skeptics should agree that cold fusion experiments are valid, and that the burden of proof is on those who say these techniques and laws are inoperative. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 10:07:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TH7DrB000711; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:07:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TH7Bnd000688; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:07:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:07:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=uHX49CRFRweoKVGbquqAw3PKyxi3dAnd9nLb8fW6EJJdSuBl3PJtdyyRLs5wwbXC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006512917652410@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:06:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d8be47bc6cd3bae269c5bc4588674cec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.225 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > > One does not necessarily need to believe in the > present objective proof of a crude device like the > Joe-Cell to further investigate what is going on. > Agreed. > > There is the possibility of achieving something > valuable and unique here, in this sub-field which can > be termed as 'eltra-efficient electrolysis' and it may > be drivaive and based roughly on these crude early > designs, but the end product will surely be very > different from any of them. > Hear, Hear. We've seen that already using a series stack of 12 2.75" x 4.5" "magnetic stainless steel" wall plate electrical outlet covers with 1.0 cm spacing (11 cells with 10 floating/neutral plates) up to 0.5 amperes with 9 volts applied to the two end plates giving 0.82 volts per cell. Lots of gas production with 9.0 * 0.5 = 4.5 watts input. Ideal Electrolysis: Hydrogen production 1.0362E-5 grams per ampere-second. Oxygen Production 8.29E-5 grams per ampere-second. Typical Commercial Electrolyzers: The Electrolabs Cell: 600 amperes at 2.5 volts 34 x 47 x 8.5 inches, 4.8 ft^3 oxygen and 8.9 ft^3 hydrogen per hour. The Knowles Cell: 4 ft long x 2.5 ft wide x 2.5 ft deep 3,000 amperes at 2.25 volts produces 24.2 ft^3 oxygen and 48.4 ft^3 hydrogen per hour. High Pressure Electrolyzer (Germany): 10 ft^3 Hydrogen per kilowatt-hour. (5.57E-3 lb per ft^3) = 18 KW-Hr/LB. Fred > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 10:59:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4THxCNM029231; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:59:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4THx8Mt029201; Mon, 29 May 2006 10:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:59:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529135700.03e88118@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529134325.03fa6900@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:59:01 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: No "Eureka" moment likely Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14617031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14617031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here is a messsage I sent to Walter Faxon and Randi. The point I am trying to make here is that you cannot expect a "Eureka" moment while watching a cold fusion experiment. Apologies to Walter, who cannot respond here. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Walter Faxon wrote: >"If you do not believe this [peer-reviewed paper], or you reject it >as "anecdotal" then you would not believe an actual live >demonstration, either, because a live demonstration is essentially no >different from reading a paper." >Untrue. At least one Nobel winner faked results that passed peer >review. If I'm wagering $1M I want to see the instruments. There are always strange people in the world, and liars, and cheats. As a practical matter, given the nature of these experiments, you could not judge the existence of cold fusion by watching one experiment, one time. It does not work that way. You have to read dozens of papers, attend conferences, read books, discuss the issue with experts, and -- if possible -- watch many experiments. Actually, watching the experiments is the least important act, and the least convincing. If you are looking for a convincing "Eureka moment" you will not find it, unless one of the cells happens to explode while you are watching, and even then you have to understand how much energy it takes to cause an explosion versus how much can be input or stored. Judging the reality of cold fusion is not something you can do in a day or week. I think it would take any reasonable expert months to reach a firm conclusion. [Regarding explosions, see: http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#PhotosAccidents] >I have seen many cold fusion experiments actually underway. They are >not inherently convincing to people who do not understand the science. >I presume Randi will acquire expert help for this Challenge. The >exact parameters of exactly what constitutes a "paranormal" result >will be determined beforehand. Yes, that's what he told me. >I presume again that it can be predetermined beforehand exactly what >would constitute "excess" heat. Also tritium appearing in the >electrodes would be an obvious marker for a cold fusion phenomenon. It was predetermined back in 1848 when J. P. Joule invented modern calorimetry. If the people observing the experiments do not agree with the conventional definition, they will not be convinced. Actually, there is little likelihood that there will be excess heat the moment they visit the experiment. At best all they can do is absorb many lessons about calorimetry and the expertise (or lack of expertise) of the researchers they visit. I would recommend they see four or five people and spend three of four months. An investigation less rigorous than this would be a stunt or parlor game, not a serious scientific evaluation. Tritium is rarely seen, and it vanishes. The best physical evidence of cold fusion are the transmutations observed by Iwamura. They are permanent and they can be evaluated time after time by various nondestructive methods of mass spectroscopy. They have been confirmed by Tokyo University, the Spring8 National Synchrotron Laboratory, by leading corporate laboratories and by the world's best mass spectroscopy laboratory in France. If that kind of rigorous, repeated testing does not convince reviewers, it is hard for me to imagine what would convince them. - Jed --=====================_14617031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here is a messsage I sent to  Walter Faxon and Randi. The point I am trying to make here is that you cannot expect a "Eureka" moment while watching a cold fusion experiment. Apologies to Walter, who cannot respond here.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Walter Faxon wrote:

"If you do not believe this [peer-reviewed paper], or you reject it
as "anecdotal" then you would not believe an actual live
demonstration, either, because a live demonstration is essentially no
different from reading a paper."
Untrue.  At least one Nobel winner faked results that passed peer review.  If I'm wagering $1M I want to see the instruments.

There are always strange people in the world, and liars, and cheats.

As a practical matter, given the nature of these experiments, you could not judge the existence of cold fusion by watching one experiment, one time. It does not work that way. You have to read dozens of papers, attend conferences, read books, discuss the issue with experts, and -- if possible -- watch many experiments. Actually, watching the experiments is the least important act, and the least convincing. If you are looking for a convincing "Eureka moment" you will not find it, unless one of the cells happens to explode while you are watching, and even then you have to understand how much energy it takes to cause an explosion versus how much can be input or stored.

Judging the reality of cold fusion is not something you can do in a day or week. I think it would take any reasonable expert months to reach a firm conclusion.

[Regarding explosions, see: http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#PhotosAccidents]

I have seen many cold fusion experiments actually underway. They are
not inherently convincing to people who do not understand the science.
I presume Randi will acquire expert help for this Challenge.  The exact parameters of exactly what constitutes a "paranormal" result will be determined beforehand.
Yes, that's what he told me.

I presume again that it can be predetermined beforehand exactly what would constitute "excess" heat.  Also tritium appearing in the electrodes would be an obvious marker for a cold fusion phenomenon.
It was predetermined back in 1848 when J. P. Joule invented modern calorimetry. If the people observing the experiments do not agree with the conventional definition, they will not be convinced. Actually, there is little likelihood that there will be excess heat the moment they visit the experiment. At best all they can do is absorb many lessons about calorimetry and the expertise (or lack of expertise) of the researchers they visit. I would recommend they see four or five people and spend three of four months. An investigation less rigorous than this would be a stunt or parlor game, not a serious scientific evaluation.

Tritium is rarely seen, and it vanishes. The best physical evidence of cold fusion are the transmutations observed by Iwamura. They are permanent and they can be evaluated time after time by various nondestructive methods of mass spectroscopy. They have been confirmed by Tokyo University, the Spring8 National Synchrotron Laboratory, by leading corporate laboratories and by the world's best mass spectroscopy laboratory in France. If that kind of rigorous, repeated testing does not convince reviewers, it is hard for me to imagine what would convince them.

- Jed
--=====================_14617031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 13:42:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4TKgORL011323; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:42:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4TKgLNV011300; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:42:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:42:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:44:21 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_739464031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_739464031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello Walter, Putting aside the hostile tone of your subject line for the moment, may I kindly ask you why they should do so? Also, so I may consider you and your comment seriously, would you care to disclose any of your related background or current involvement with science? For myself, I do not have a background in science, however, I have been reporting on and investigating the subject matter for 6 years. Thank you, Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. NEW ENERGY TIMES Your best source for "cold fusion" news and information. 11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 www.newenergytimes.com Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 --=====================_739464031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello Walter,

Putting aside the hostile tone of your subject line for the moment, may I kindly ask you why they should do so?

Also, so I may consider you and your comment seriously, would you care to disclose any of your related background or current involvement with science?

For myself, I do not have a background in science, however, I have been reporting on and investigating the subject matter for 6 years.

Thank you,


Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
NEW ENERGY TIMES
Your best source for "cold fusion" news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189

--=====================_739464031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 19:56:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U2u0T5032607; Mon, 29 May 2006 19:56:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U2tp2o032551; Mon, 29 May 2006 19:55:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:55:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:55:46 -0400 Message-Id: <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit Hello Walter, Putting aside the hostile tone of your subject line for the moment, may I kindly ask you why they should do so? <><><><><><> If I may answer for Walter in his absence . . . it would be the greatest publicity stunt in history. It would seal CF. One must read the challenge carefully. We need a lawyer to write the contract. Jones is at the bar! But, if it could be pulled off . . .! Who's our best bet? I bet Dennis Cravens would opt in. But we need one we know will work. Would Fleishmann agree to share the secret to the alloy? Helluva kickass idea, IMO. Best bet to take JR's money, too. I'll invest. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 20:03:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U33EFo003583; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:03:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U33DkS003557; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:03:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:03:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529200350.029548f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:05:24 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Terry, No, you may not answer for Walter. I'll explain when I've completed my dialogue with him. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 20:08:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U37gK0005879; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:07:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U37bDh005841; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:07:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:07:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:07:26 -0400 Message-Id: <8C851AD501F0851-14E0-7326@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060529200350.029548f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529200350.029548f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4U37Vf1005802 Resent-Message-ID: <9jKAPC.A.EbB.3b7eEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit   No, you may not answer for Walter.     I'll explain when I've completed my dialogue with him.  <><><><><> I look forward to it. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 20:51:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U3pKde028765; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:51:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U3pJdC028744; Mon, 29 May 2006 20:51:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:51:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Randi's response Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:51:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <90gn72tn82uhmpndrm05vldhdp4d39605q@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529130206.03e3f2f0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060529124538.03f7ac50@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060529130206.03e3f2f0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060529124538.03f7ac50@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.6] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 30 May 2006 03:51:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4U3pHfW028719 Resent-Message-ID: <5__X2D.A.EBH.3E8eEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 29 May 2006 13:03:25 -0400: Hi, [snip] >From: "James Randi" >To: >Subject: > >Jed, the JREF has the American Physical Society – >founded in 1899, and now at 43,000 members >worldwide – who would supervise any test of “cold >fusion.” Is that authority not enough for you…? Reading between the lines I would say he is referring to Bob & Peter. It might good for a laugh to see them wiggle out of observing a real demonstration. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 21:48:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U4lsnE022568; Mon, 29 May 2006 21:47:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U4lrDN022551; Mon, 29 May 2006 21:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 21:47:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:48:25 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 00:48:30 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 00:48:33 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > We gave an open demonstration at MIT of cold fusion for > a week during ICCF-10 in August 2003. Apparently the > pathologic skeptics, like yourself, were either afraid, > or too busy, to show up. > http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html > > The rest of my comments stand, albeit ignored by you. > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz So, right now, today, you have an experiment ready that could win the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge but you are too bullheaded to apply? Pardon this "pathologic skeptic" for urging you to try. Dr. Swartz, I realize now that you don't have the temperament to deal with real skeptics. But perhaps one of your associates does. Please consider referring him or her to this thread. In any event, if demonstrating cold fusion is as easy as you imply the Challenge should be won in a few months anyway. -Walter (Delayed due to ISP problems) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 29 23:20:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U6K3Zv027580; Mon, 29 May 2006 23:20:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U6EKdX025197; Mon, 29 May 2006 23:14:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:14:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 02:07:44 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 02:07:50 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 02:07:50 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Hello Walter, > > Putting aside the hostile tone of your subject line for the > moment, may I kindly ask you why they should do so? > > Also, so I may consider you and your comment seriously, would > you care to disclose any of your related background or current > involvement with science? > > For myself, I do not have a background in science, however, I > have been reporting on and investigating the subject matter > for 6 years. > > Thank you, > > > Steven B. Krivit > Editor, New Energy Times > Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc Hello again, Steven. You ask why cold fusion advocates should try to win the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. Terry of course has the right answer but let me elaborate on it slightly. Let's step back and look at the state of cold fusion in the West today; ground you've plowed multiple times by now. First, publicly: Cold fusion is in general disrepute. The summary of the DOE's 2004 review said "nothing new". (Inaccurate of course but that's what people remember.) Every now and again CF gets a feature article in some paper or magazine under the general heading, "Cold Fusion: Not Dead Yet". The subject remains as a bit of history to be used in categorizing other scientific controversies ("pathological science" or worse). And in the government it is considered just fine to ridicule CF proponents and threaten their jobs. Second, privately: In the West I don't know if any major players are still involved in research. If any are, their secrecy is probably causing them to lose time and money duplicating and relearning stuff already done years ago. To the extent that some of the "old hands" are hanging on they are doing so with reduced budget, staff, even office space. Finally, the two small companies that are being touted as the coming saviors of the field are clearly disreputable, even borderline fraudulent. (I'm sure you'll understand why I don't name names here.) Why any CF "names" remain involved with them I don't know, except that there don't seem to be any alternatives -- which would imply that yes, no major Western corporation has any active CF projects. So maybe scientists in Japan (or Italy or Russia, or ...) will in a few years finally solve cold fusion, which would be a little annoying but OK, but that assumption leaves out one little problem: The science of cold fusion is a mess. What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice without radiation (just two or three miracles) now has "transmutations" occurring everywhere, with energy appearing and disappearing from apparently nowhere, still almost completely without tell-tale radiation. And experimentally still largely hit-or-miss. This sort of problem will not be solved without the involvement of the entire worldwide physics community. Which is why it is vital that cold fusion be rehabilitated in the West, which is why, as a short-cut, we need to short-circuit the skeptics who, using ridicule alone (!), are holding open-minded scientists and science-funding officials in thrall. Winning Randi's prize will do that. --- You ask about my science background. I have none. Nor have I ever been involved with doing science. I am but a humble computer programmer. I've learned most of what I know of cold fusion from sources like you. Any knowledgeable skeptics should feel free to dismiss me and my opinions instantly. Fortunately I'm not talking to them here. Regards, Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 00:22:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U7MMlM026484; Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U7MGnP026421; Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c683b9$c1c10a40$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:22:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter, Cold Fusion is not paranormal - it is either an extension of known physics a la Julian Schwinger, or a demonstration that some of current physics is wrong. How could it win a prize for showing a paranormal effect? Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 00:22:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U7MYR9026576; Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U7MU2w026541; Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:22:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 03:23:01 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Cold fusion advocates should ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 03:23:06 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 30 May 2006 03:23:08 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vorts (of a sort), Not enough energy to catch up with the prolific Jed, but here is an idea for another path to Challenge victory: According to A STUDENT'S GUIDE TO COLD FUSION, by Edmund Storms http://www.lenr-canr.org/StudentsGuide.htm ----- Evidence for iron production during arcing between carbon electrodes under H2O has been reported [16, 165-167]. This method seems to be easily reproduced. Palladium and gold cathodes also showed excessive iron after electrolysis in light water [168, 169]. [16] Sundaresan, R. and J. Bockris, Anomalous Reactions During Arcing Between Carbon Rods in Water. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26: p. 261. [168] Ohmori, T. and M. Enyo, Iron Formation in Gold and Palladium Cathodes. J. New Energy, 1996. 1(1): p. 15. ----- My assumption (!) or hope is that transmutation using the arcing method is much faster than any results that occur via electrolysis. But I'm also assuming (ass u me) that the transmutation researchers simply tested their resulting "iron" magnetically by waving a permanent magnet over the residue to see if anything therein responded ferromagnetically (though nickel and cobalt also exhibit ferromagnetism). That's what I seem to recall from an old issue of "Infinite Energy". BUT! -- Just to show how problematic that test is, here is an not-so-recent science news item: ----- More Magnets, Please Only metals can become magnetic, right? Introducing buckyballs that may undo our thinking on yet another scientific principle By Robert Kunzig DISCOVER Vol. 23 No. 12 | December 2002 Tatiana Makarova makes are tiny black cylinders, a tenth of an inch long. If they weren't so small, you might mistake them for ordinary refrigerator magnets. But the stuff they are made from is not ordinary iron: It costs $100 a gram. In fact, Makarova handles that precious black powder in a transparent "glove box"—the kind of thing a biologist might use to contain a virus—precisely because she doesn't want it getting contaminated by some speck of iron-laden dust in her lab. Magnetic iron would not be news. What Makarova has discovered is magnetic carbon. Only four elements in the periodic table—iron, cobalt, nickel, and gadolinium—are naturally ferromagnetic at room temperature, meaning they can be permanently magnetized by exposure to a magnetic field. But the search for nonmetallic magnets—which could be light, cheap, maybe even transparent—has lately become something of a cottage industry. A decade ago, a Japanese lab isolated a metal-free organic compound that became permanently magnetized at a fraction of a degree above absolute zero. Makarova, a Russian physicist working at Umeå University in Sweden, has now found a way to make magnets of pure carbon—to be precise, of buckyballs, the soccer-ball-shaped molecules that consist of 60 carbon atoms each. Her magnets are extremely weak -— "They won't stick to your refrigerator," she says —- but they do work at room temperature. That's an essential quality if they are ever going to have any practical applications. http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-02/features/featmagnet/ ----- As vortians are no doubt aware, fullerenes (originally known as buckminsterfullerenes; the buckyball, the third known natural form of pure carbon after diamond and graphite) is one of the components of soot, soot from burning carbon like from candles -- or from carbon arc lamps. Maybe if the cold fusioneers weren't looking so hard for transmutations they would have discovered Makarova's magnetic carbon years before she did. At least they can produce a version more easily: Makarova has to process her buckyballs into a polymer using pressure of a million pounds per square inch at a temperature of more than 1,300 degrees Fahrenheit (forgive the non-SI units). So if your "iron" instead turns out to be magnetic buckyballs you've got yourself a potentially useful patent right there. At any rate, instead assuming actual iron, for our purposes I recommend that the residue be tested for the presence of iron, tested using multiple sensitive "iron-clad" chemical tests. No need to bring in a mass spectrometer unless JREF insists. Unfortunately -- as I explained to Jed in a private email -- any evidence of "transmutation" introduces a problem: The counter-claim that the new elements were already somewhere present in the experimental apparatus before the experiment started. So we have to introduce additional control experimental set-ups that can be examined, and to have a reasonable number of experiments and controls we have to prepare at least six experimental set-ups beforehand, choosing by chance which three of the six to run. If the results are positive and consistent, the chance that only the three "rigged" experimental setups were chosen is the combination of six things, taken three at a time; C(6,3) = 20. One chance in 20. If you want an even more conclusive result, try more experimental set-ups: C(8,4) = 70; C(10,5) = 252. I'd wager that if you pass the preliminary testing phase JREF will insist on 10 set-ups. That's assuming that indeed, "This method seems to be easily reproduced." We might lower our expectations to allow one of five run experiments to fail, which changes the numbers but I've forgotten exactly how right now. For experimental details, preparation and early testing, get help from Sundaresan AND Bockris if you can. The whole set-up MUST be proved to work consistently BEFORE you agree to be tested by JREF. Or if instead the "iron" turns out to be magnetic buckyballs, you have a potentially valuable patent. ----- I also suggested to Jed doing a demo using the so-called "Reifenschweiler Effect" (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Reifenschwreducedrad.pdf) but he said it had never been reproduced. If both that and the above are ruled out and no one has a better idea then someone will have to do things the hard way: Balance reproducibility, min/avg/max time for effect, signal strength, control methods and a dozen other aspects of cold fusion research in order to mount a test for the Challenge. Unfortunately, not myself being a scientist I can't be of any help. But I remain convinced that someone can do it. -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 02:50:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4U9ob4m000545; Tue, 30 May 2006 02:50:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4U9oZws000525; Tue, 30 May 2006 02:50:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 02:50:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dewgWdVS8uucx68vmKlERgADxR5GkbLQ7Ozv9t9vMBLfXzC6GyAIB+bSu0lQcR5m; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006523095017291@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 03:50:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940895ee5140a513a029d2df41fdeef7810350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.12 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It gets complicated. http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ni.html http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&journal=cjc&volume=53&calyLang=fra&articleFile=v75-464.pdf Hydrogen-Water Deuterium Exchange Over Metal Oxide Promoted Nickel Catalysts Research Chemistry Branch, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment, Pinawa, Manitoba ROE 1LO "Specific rates have been measured for hydrogen-water deuterium isotope exchange over unsupported nickel promoted with about 20% of various metal oxides. The oxides used were Cr,03, MOO,, MnO, W0,-WO,, and UO,. Nickel surface areas, which are required to measure the specific rates, were determined by hydrogen chemisorption. Specific rates were measured as a function of temperature in the range 353 to 573 K and as a function of the partial pressure of hydrogen and water over a 10-fold range of partial pressure. The molybdenum and tungsten oxides gave the highest specific rates, and manganese and uranium oxides the lowest. Chromium oxide was intermediate, although it gave the highest rate per gram of catalyst. The orders with respect to hydrogen and water over molybdenum oxide and tungsten oxide promoted nickel were consistent with a mechanism in which nickel oxide is formed from the reaction of water with the catalyst, and then is reduced by hydrogen. Over manganese and uranium oxide promoted catalysts, these orders are consistent with a mechanism in which adsorbed water exchanges with chemisorbed hydrogen atoms on the nickel surface. Chromium oxide is intermediate. It was noted that those oxides which favored the nickel oxide route had electronic work functions closest to those of metallic nickel and nickel oxide." http://forschung.unibw-muenchen.de/papers/pyusbmtfnscflbmt8ddnfrufeu9hdx.pdf Basics of Reproducible Work Function Gas Sensing with Metal Oxides under Environmental Conditions "It is known that work function measurements on cleaved metal and metal oxide are strongly influenced by crystal orientation and surface defects. Therefore using metal oxide layers in work function sensors has been considered to be too problematic with regard to reproducibility. This study proves reproducible work function measurements on a first set of metal oxides. A comparison on NiO, In2O3 and Fe2O3 layers shows that stable, material specific gas sensitivities can be achieved which are to some extent independent of microscopic surface properties." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

It gets complicated.

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ni.html

http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&journal=cjc&volume=53&calyLang=fra&articleFile=v75-464.pdf

Hydrogen-Water Deuterium Exchange Over Metal Oxide Promoted

Nickel Catalysts

Research Chemistry Branch, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment, Pinawa,

Manitoba ROE 1LO

"Specific rates have been measured for hydrogen-water deuterium isotope exchange over

unsupported nickel promoted with about 20% of various metal oxides. The oxides used were

Cr,03, MOO,, MnO, W0,-WO,, and UO,. Nickel surface areas, which are required to measure

the specific rates, were determined by hydrogen chemisorption. Specific rates were measured as

a function of temperature in the range 353 to 573 K and as a function of the partial pressure of

hydrogen and water over a 10-fold range of partial pressure.

The molybdenum and tungsten oxides gave the highest specific rates, and manganese and

uranium oxides the lowest. Chromium oxide was intermediate, although it gave the highest rate

per gram of catalyst. The orders with respect to hydrogen and water over molybdenum oxide and

tungsten oxide promoted nickel were consistent with a mechanism in which nickel oxide is

formed from the reaction of water with the catalyst, and then is reduced by hydrogen. Over

manganese and uranium oxide promoted catalysts, these orders are consistent with a mechanism

in which adsorbed water exchanges with chemisorbed hydrogen atoms on the nickel surface.

Chromium oxide is intermediate. It was noted that those oxides which favored the nickel oxide

route had electronic work functions closest to those of metallic nickel and nickel oxide."

http://forschung.unibw-muenchen.de/papers/pyusbmtfnscflbmt8ddnfrufeu9hdx.pdf

Basics of Reproducible Work Function Gas Sensing with Metal Oxides under

Environmental Conditions

"It is known that work function measurements on cleaved metal and metal oxide are strongly influenced by

crystal orientation and surface defects. Therefore using metal oxide layers in work function sensors has

been considered to be too problematic with regard to reproducibility. This study proves reproducible work

function measurements on a first set of metal oxides. A comparison on NiO, In2O3 and Fe2O3 layers shows

that stable, material specific gas sensitivities can be achieved which are to some extent independent of

microscopic surface properties."

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 05:14:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UCDuNO004356; Tue, 30 May 2006 05:13:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UCDsdk004337; Tue, 30 May 2006 05:13:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 05:13:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002501c683e2$81b38030$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cold Fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:13:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C683B8.985A1760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C683B8.985A1760 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0022_01C683B8.985A1760" ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C683B8.985A1760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts.. The healthy discussions in this thread make me smile. Perhaps the = science world is emerging from a fraternity mentality to an open and = candid community for all that pursue knowledge. Cold Fusion needs no defense. Observing the forces unleashed by = hurricane Katrina is ample demonstration of only one " facet" of "cold = fusion". Science cannot adequately describe the production of the events = taking place during the formation and decay of a hurricane... yet.. the = event is " accepted" by all scientists. The world awaits for the discovery of the mathematics needed to model = the " facets". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C683B8.985A1760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts..
 
The healthy discussions in this thread make me smile. Perhaps the = science=20 world is emerging from a fraternity mentality to an open and candid = community=20 for all that pursue knowledge.
 
Cold Fusion needs no defense. Observing the forces unleashed by = hurricane=20 Katrina is ample demonstration of only one " facet" of "cold fusion". = Science=20 cannot adequately describe the production of the events taking place = during the=20 formation and decay of a hurricane... yet.. the event is " accepted" by = all=20 scientists.
 
The world awaits for the discovery of the mathematics needed to = model the "=20 facets".
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C683B8.985A1760-- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C683B8.985A1760 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002001c683e2$812d1220$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C683B8.985A1760-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 07:41:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UEeFOh031274; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:40:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UEX7Qs025475; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:33:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:33:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200605301432.k4UEWrCr050330@mail0.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:32:52 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_3c74090dafcf8710d8696b9ced71ae66" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <3SFRJD.A.0NG.ieFfEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_3c74090dafcf8710d8696b9ced71ae66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From Walter Faxon ... > The science of cold fusion is a mess. > What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice > without radiation (just two or three miracles) now > has "transmutations" occurring everywhere, with > energy appearing and disappearing from apparently > nowhere, still almost completely without tell-tale > radiation. And experimentally still largely > hit-or-miss. > > [The Cold Fusion] problem will not be solved without > the involvement of the entire worldwide physics community. > > Which is why it is vital that cold fusion be rehabilitated > in the West, which is why, as a short-cut, we need to > short-circuit the skeptics who, using ridicule alone (!), > are holding open-minded scientists and science-funding > officials in thrall. Winning Randi's prize will do that. Patience Grasshopper. >From my perspective skeptics such as those who make up organizations like CISCOP often seem to lose the capacity to be objective in their own investigative efforts, which is incredibly ironic. Again, this is strictly my opinion, but I suspect winning Randi's prize is not likely to accomplish much of anything other than acquiring bragging rights. Winning Randi's prize is not likely to be noticed by those in key financial positions because while some may give his organization lip service (because it occasionally serves a useful purpose in exposing cheats and frauds) I suspect many of those same "supporters" don't agree any more with Randi's conclusions than I might. While few dispute Randi's skills as an excellent and entertaining magician, he reduces himself and his organization to nothing more than the status of a big fish in a little pond, a fish out-of-water that is constantly seeking a special kind of recognition that it will never receive, when they take it upon themselves to debunk controversial scientific claims. In the meantime the struggle continues. While acquiring scientific legitimacy is desirable it is difficult to accomplish when the politics of the times are stacked against you. Under the circumstances it seems more likely to me that authentic "bragging rights" will eventually be accomplished when some obscure upstart company finally finds a way to demonstrate a "CF" and/or "ZPE" prototype capable of self-running. Historically speaking, this has often been the way major paradigm shifts have come out of the closet, so-to-speak. Why should CF behave any differently? And that takes time. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_3c74090dafcf8710d8696b9ced71ae66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From Walter Faxon

...

> The science of cold fusion is a mess.

> What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice
> without radiation (just two or three miracles) now
> has "transmutations" occurring everywhere, with
> energy appearing and disappearing from apparently
> nowhere, still almost completely without tell-tale
> radiation. And experimentally still largely
> hit-or-miss.
>
> [The Cold Fusion] problem will not be solved without
> the involvement of the entire worldwide physics community.
>
> Which is why it is vital that cold fusion be rehabilitated
> in the West, which is why, as a short-cut, we need to
> short-circuit the skeptics who, using ridicule alone (!),
> are holding open-minded scientists and science-funding
> officials in thrall. Winning Randi's prize will do that.


Patience Grasshopper.

>From my perspective skeptics such as those who make up organizations like C= ISCOP often seem to lose the capacity to be objective in their own investig= ative efforts, which is incredibly ironic.

Again, this is strictly my opinion, but I suspect winning Randi's prize is = not likely to accomplish much of anything other than acquiring bragging rig= hts. Winning Randi's prize is not likely to be noticed by those in key fina= ncial positions because while some may give his organization lip service (b= ecause it occasionally serves a useful purpose in exposing cheats and fraud= s) I suspect many of those same "supporters" don't agree any more with Rand= i's conclusions than I might.

While few dispute Randi's skills as an excellent and entertaining magician,= he reduces himself and his organization to nothing more than the status of= a big fish in a little pond, a fish out-of-water that is constantly seekin= g a special kind of recognition that it will never receive, when they take = it upon themselves to debunk controversial scientific claims.

In the meantime the struggle continues. While acquiring scientific legitima= cy is desirable it is difficult to accomplish when the politics of the time= s are stacked against you. Under the circumstances it seems more likely to = me that authentic "bragging rights" will eventually be accomplished when so= me obscure upstart company finally finds a way to demonstrate a "CF" and/or= "ZPE" prototype capable of self-running. Historically speaking, this has o= ften been the way major paradigm shifts have come out of the closet, so-to-= speak. Why should CF behave any differently?

And that takes time.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

--=_3c74090dafcf8710d8696b9ced71ae66-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 07:58:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UEwYdj015254; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:58:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UEwWO5015232; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:58:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:58:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530105410.03e7a550@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:58:21 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More exchanges with Randi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Randi sent me about six more responses, and I replied. The conversation was mainly polite but unproductive. Randi has no relevant knowledge and his statements about cold fusion and the scientific method are preposterous. This correspondence is not important, so I will not clutter up this forum with it. If you would like to see a copy, please e-mail me directly and I will assemble all the messages in one document and sent it to you. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 09:18:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UGHjTZ009483; Tue, 30 May 2006 09:17:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UGHhaD009462; Tue, 30 May 2006 09:17:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:17:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GXHcfeibZbMt10NQQvpBidENTGWR819c06oxe7igS96JKK/jOFbhJwwvTmTY3rmc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220065230161722366@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:17:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ddbacc0c5b03678ab451db45f001a70c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII These Ellingham Diagrams make life simpler. http://www.chem.mtu.edu/skkawatr/Ellingham.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/30/2006 3:51:09 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode It gets complicated. http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ni.html http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&journal=cjc&volume=53&calyLang=fra&articleFile=v75-464.pdf Hydrogen-Water Deuterium Exchange Over Metal Oxide Promoted Nickel Catalysts Research Chemistry Branch, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment, Pinawa, Manitoba ROE 1LO "Specific rates have been measured for hydrogen-water deuterium isotope exchange over unsupported nickel promoted with about 20% of various metal oxides. The oxides used were Cr,03, MOO,, MnO, W0,-WO,, and UO,. Nickel surface areas, which are required to measure the specific rates, were determined by hydrogen chemisorption. Specific rates were measured as a function of temperature in the range 353 to 573 K and as a function of the partial pressure of hydrogen and water over a 10-fold range of partial pressure. The molybdenum and tungsten oxides gave the highest specific rates, and manganese and uranium oxides the lowest. Chromium oxide was intermediate, although it gave the highest rate per gram of catalyst. The orders with respect to hydrogen and water over molybdenum oxide and tungsten oxide promoted nickel were consistent with a mechanism in which nickel oxide is formed from the reaction of water with the catalyst, and then is reduced by hydrogen. Over manganese and uranium oxide promoted catalysts, these orders are consistent with a mechanism in which adsorbed water exchanges with chemisorbed hydrogen atoms on the nickel surface. Chromium oxide is intermediate. It was noted that those oxides which favored the nickel oxide route had electronic work functions closest to those of metallic nickel and nickel oxide." http://forschung.unibw-muenchen.de/papers/pyusbmtfnscflbmt8ddnfrufeu9hdx.pdf Basics of Reproducible Work Function Gas Sensing with Metal Oxides under Environmental Conditions "It is known that work function measurements on cleaved metal and metal oxide are strongly influenced by crystal orientation and surface defects. Therefore using metal oxide layers in work function sensors has been considered to be too problematic with regard to reproducibility. This study proves reproducible work function measurements on a first set of metal oxides. A comparison on NiO, In2O3 and Fe2O3 layers shows that stable, material specific gas sensitivities can be achieved which are to some extent independent of microscopic surface properties." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
These Ellingham Diagrams make life simpler.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/30/2006 3:51:09 AM
Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer electrode

It gets complicated.

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Ni.html

http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&journal=cjc&volume=53&calyLang=fra&articleFile=v75-464.pdf

Hydrogen-Water Deuterium Exchange Over Metal Oxide Promoted

Nickel Catalysts

Research Chemistry Branch, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment, Pinawa,

Manitoba ROE 1LO

"Specific rates have been measured for hydrogen-water deuterium isotope exchange over

unsupported nickel promoted with about 20% of various metal oxides. The oxides used were

Cr,03, MOO,, MnO, W0,-WO,, and UO,. Nickel surface areas, which are required to measure

the specific rates, were determined by hydrogen chemisorption. Specific rates were measured as

a function of temperature in the range 353 to 573 K and as a function of the partial pressure of

hydrogen and water over a 10-fold range of partial pressure.

The molybdenum and tungsten oxides gave the highest specific rates, and manganese and

uranium oxides the lowest. Chromium oxide was intermediate, although it gave the highest rate

per gram of catalyst. The orders with respect to hydrogen and water over molybdenum oxide and

tungsten oxide promoted nickel were consistent with a mechanism in which nickel oxide is

formed from the reaction of water with the catalyst, and then is reduced by hydrogen. Over

manganese and uranium oxide promoted catalysts, these orders are consistent with a mechanism

in which adsorbed water exchanges with chemisorbed hydrogen atoms on the nickel surface.

Chromium oxide is intermediate. It was noted that those oxides which favored the nickel oxide

route had electronic work functions closest to those of metallic nickel and nickel oxide."

http://forschung.unibw-muenchen.de/papers/pyusbmtfnscflbmt8ddnfrufeu9hdx.pdf

Basics of Reproducible Work Function Gas Sensing with Metal Oxides under

Environmental Conditions

"It is known that work function measurements on cleaved metal and metal oxide are strongly influenced by

crystal orientation and surface defects. Therefore using metal oxide layers in work function sensors has

been considered to be too problematic with regard to reproducibility. This study proves reproducible work

function measurements on a first set of metal oxides. A comparison on NiO, In2O3 and Fe2O3 layers shows

that stable, material specific gas sensitivities can be achieved which are to some extent independent of

microscopic surface properties."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 09:34:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UGYO9b023208; Tue, 30 May 2006 09:34:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UGYK1b023143; Tue, 30 May 2006 09:34:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:34:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:05:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060529104801.01f259e8@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes Walter, "Fulminating here won't impress many people". Mr. Swartz's credentials are widely known and respected. I think a more respective tone is in order as per the list rules if you every want to taken seriously by the people you are looking to engage. Just a suggestion. -john -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Swartz [mailto:mica@world.std.com] Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up At 10:37 AM 5/29/2006 -0400, Walter Faxxon wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > Scientists and engineers should never lower themselves to > > the level of a magician or trickster. >...etc...etc...etc... > >Yay! I was right! I'm hearing excuses! Excuses just like the TV >psychics use! > >Please consider cooling off, reading the Challenge rules and doing some >thinking about how to show Randi up. Fulminating here won't impress many >people. > >-Walter We gave an open demonstration at MIT of cold fusion for a week during ICCF-10 in August 2003. Apparently the pathologic skeptics, like yourself, were either afraid, or too busy, to show up. http://world.std.com/~mica/jeticcf10demo.html The rest of my comments stand, albeit ignored by you. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 10:53:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UHhV7C012276; Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UHhTf8012155; Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:43:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:42:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: <002a01c683b9$c1c10a40$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Walter, Cold Fusion is not paranormal - it is either an extension of known > physics a la Julian Schwinger, or a demonstration that some of current > physics is wrong. How could it win a prize for showing a paranormal effect? > > Nick Palmer > This is what "paranormal" means to me... The paranormal is not the same as the supernatural, although it is often presented as such by both both supporters and detractors. If an effect is deemed normal that means established physics can furnish an adequate explanation of the effect. If an effect is deemed paranormal that means established physics cannot furnish an adequate explanation of the effect. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:35:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UIZPt5019597; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:35:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UIZNdf019569; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:35:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:35:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:35:17 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C8522EEF03EE33-2164-2A84F@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder If an effect is deemed paranormal that means established physics cannot furnish an adequate explanation of the effect. <><><><><><> Yes, and Randi includes violation of Newton's laws as one of his examples of acceptable paranormal challenges. By extension, an apparent violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics or an apparent chemical transmutation would meet JREF definition of paranormal events. Of course, there's a Catch-22 here. Once CF is accepted and explained, the definition of "established physics" changes. ;-) Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:36:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UIa5Ii020054; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:36:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UIa3YY020022; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <447C907A.9060408@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:35:38 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: magnetic carbon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; I'm wondering how important magnetic carbon is, does it have applications, or is it just an interesting anomaly? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 11:57:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UIuVRm001452; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:56:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UIuTVo001403; Tue, 30 May 2006 11:56:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:56:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <447C9150.8000606@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:39:12 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: The new Russian battery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the interesting URL, however I didn't see any links from the site. I'm wondering what this new substance is, and how long it will be before I can purchase a battery? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:02:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UJ1oNl005333; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:01:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UJ1ke1005277; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:01:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:01:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530144633.03be14c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:01:30 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20060468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_20060468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Walter Faxon wrote: >So maybe scientists in Japan (or Italy or Russia, or ...) will in a few >years finally solve cold fusion . . . Not a chance. In Japan they will all be retired or dead in a few years. >The science of cold fusion is a mess. Sez who? >What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice without radiation (just two >or three miracles) now has "transmutations" occurring everywhere, with >energy appearing and disappearing from apparently nowhere . . . That is not a "mess" -- that is what the experiments reveal is happening. A natural phenomenon cannot be described as a mess. >Winning Randi's prize will do that. The likelihood of that Pons of Fleischmann will win a Nobel prize is far greater than the likelihood that cold fusion will win Randi's prize. Randi made it clear that we are disqualified. He will not look at experiments or read about them and that he does not accept the kind of proof they produce. There is no other kind of proof. If you do not accept experiments such as Iwamura's or the data from BARC, then you do not believe cold fusion exists and nothing can persuade you. Midway through our discussion, Randi suddenly changed the terms of his challenge from merely ridiculous to utterly impossible. Instead of demanding experimental proof that cold fusion exists (which could hypothetically be given if he understood anything about physics), he suddenly demanded a practical commercial device instead: "Let's leave it here: the million-dollar prize of the James Randi Educational Foundation is available for the operation of a practical working version of the 'cold fusion' claim." I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars, and that this is completely different from experimental proof. I expect he has no clue what I am talking about. In any case, he would not recognize scientific proof if it bit him on the butt. - Jed --=====================_20060468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Walter Faxon wrote:

So maybe scientists in Japan (or Italy or Russia, or ...) will in a few
years finally solve cold fusion . . .

Not a chance. In Japan they will all be retired or dead in a few years.


The science of cold fusion is a mess.

Sez who?


What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice without radiation (just two
or three miracles) now has "transmutations" occurring everywhere, with
energy appearing and disappearing from apparently nowhere . . .

That is not a "mess" -- that is what the experiments reveal is happening. A natural phenomenon cannot be described as a mess.


Winning Randi's prize will do that.

The likelihood of that Pons of Fleischmann will win a Nobel prize is far greater than the likelihood that cold fusion will win Randi's prize. Randi made it clear that we are disqualified. He will not look at experiments or read about them and that he does not accept the kind of proof they produce. There is no other kind of proof. If you do not accept experiments such as Iwamura's or the data from BARC, then you do not believe cold fusion exists and nothing can persuade you.

Midway through our discussion, Randi suddenly changed the terms of his challenge from merely ridiculous to utterly impossible. Instead of demanding experimental proof that cold fusion exists (which could hypothetically be given if he understood anything about physics), he suddenly demanded a practical commercial device instead:

"Let's leave it here: the million-dollar prize of the James Randi Educational Foundation is available for the operation of a practical working version of the 'cold fusion' claim."

I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars, and that this is completely different from experimental proof. I expect he has no clue what I am talking about. In any case, he would not recognize scientific proof if it bit him on the butt.

- Jed
--=====================_20060468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:08:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UJ7o3s009126; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:07:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UJ7mR4009084; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:07:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:07:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:06:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530144633.03be14c0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_h8WSnneh4aA2XzHQLYPTKw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_h8WSnneh4aA2XzHQLYPTKw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jed Rothwell wrote: I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars, and that this is completely different from experimental proof. I expect he has no clue what I am talking about. In any case, he would not recognize scientific proof if it bit him on the butt. If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better or worse than hot fusion. Harry --Boundary_(ID_h8WSnneh4aA2XzHQLYPTKw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Jed Rothwell wrote:


I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars, and that this is completely different from experimental proof. I expect he has no clue what I am talking about. In any case, he would not recognize scientific proof if it bit him on the butt.



If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better or worse than hot fusion.

Harry
--Boundary_(ID_h8WSnneh4aA2XzHQLYPTKw)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 12:53:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UJrRYm001648; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:53:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UJrPsn001627; Tue, 30 May 2006 12:53:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:53:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:52:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: <8C8522EEF03EE33-2164-2A84F@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder > > If an effect is deemed paranormal that means established physics > cannot furnish an adequate explanation of the effect. > > <><><><><><> > > Yes, and Randi includes violation of Newton's laws as one of his > examples of acceptable paranormal challenges. By extension, an > apparent violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics or an apparent > chemical transmutation would meet JREF definition of paranormal events. > > Of course, there's a Catch-22 here. Once CF is accepted and explained, > the definition of "established physics" changes. ;-) > > Terry However, supporters of CF research fall into two camps. 1) Those who believe the effect can be explained by established physics. They would deem the effect normal. 2) Those who believe the effect cannot be explained by established physics. They would deem the effect paranormal. If you are in the first camp it would not be considered wise to associate yourself with Randi. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:20:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UKJifQ015930; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:19:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UKJhfO015910; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:19:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:19:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:19:36 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C8523D8157DE8F-2164-2ADF6@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Bad News for the Stairway to Heaven Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <6ulsr.A.f4D.ejKfEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=639 "Laboratory tests have demonstrated that flawless individual nanotubes can withstand about 100 gigapascals of tension; however, if a nanotube is missing just one carbon atom, it can reduce its strength by as much as thirty percent." ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:26:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UKPoxn019744; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:25:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UKPns0019724; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:25:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:25:41 -0400 From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net Message-Id: <8C8523E5B4F5A87-2164-2AE56@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.135 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder If you are in the first camp it would not be considered wise to associate yourself with Randi. <><><><><><> Yeah, and even s(k)eptics can change: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000B557A-71ED-146C-ADB783414B7 F0000 http://tinyurl.com/hfxk2 Looks like Al flipped Shermer. Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 13:38:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4UKcALt027693; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:38:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4UKc7wH027641; Tue, 30 May 2006 13:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:38:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530153556.03dc3840@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:43:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530144633.03be14c0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22592703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_22592703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars . . . > > >If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better >or worse than hot fusion. I meant the first one would cost billions of dollars. The R&D would cost billions. Setting up new production lines would cost additional billions, but of course you do not have to pay for all production lines before you get any payback. Once actual commercial devices are mass-produced they will cost less than today's gasoline powered motors. As I told Randi, I base this estimate on the cost of developing the Prius hybrid engine, which came in at ~$1 billion as I recall. Compared to cold fusion that was a minor incremental improvement over existing technology. Actually, hot fusion has cost about $100 billion so far it would cost at least that much again to make the first prototype. Cold fusion would probably cost less than 5% of that right through to the first production lines. To put things in perspective, in 2005 US consumers paid $8.6 billion for "data applications" on their cell phones, mainly downloading songs and ring tones. See: http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71016-0.html?tw=wn_index_10 - Jed --=====================_22592703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars . . .


If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better or worse than hot fusion.

I meant the first one would cost billions of dollars. The R&D would cost billions. Setting up new production lines would cost additional billions, but of course you do not have to pay for all production lines before you get any payback. Once actual commercial devices are mass-produced they will cost less than today's gasoline powered motors.

As I told Randi, I base this estimate on the cost of developing the Prius hybrid engine, which came in at ~$1 billion as I recall. Compared to cold fusion that was a minor incremental improvement over existing technology.

Actually, hot fusion has cost about $100 billion so far it would cost at least that much again to make the first prototype. Cold fusion would probably cost less than 5% of that right through to the first production lines.

To put things in perspective, in 2005 US consumers paid $8.6 billion for "data applications" on their cell phones, mainly downloading songs and ring tones. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71016-0.html?tw=wn_index_10

- Jed
--=====================_22592703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 14:13:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ULClJq016913; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ULCj39016876; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530133405.02aba000@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:14:58 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Walter, So nice to hear more from you. I was wrong. Your tone (hard as it is to read over these inanimate ones and zeros) was not hostile. It was a bit rude, but more impatient than anything else. If its purpose was to attract attention, it worked. Your message also demonstrates that you've taken the initiative that disingenuous skeptics have not - you have made a serious effort to learn about this subject. I don't know to what extent your question/assertion is tied to the wondrous Randi or not. If so, let me first dispense with that matter. I could care less what Randi might think or say about cold fusion, pro or even con, because I do not recognize him as someone with expertise in the field of CMNS. On to your own personal inquiry in this matter. What will it take? What sort of demonstration? Yes, I agree that a demonstration will help, but it won't be just that. History (the Wright brothers) gives us clear precedent. Between Jed, Ed and myself we probably have heard more reasons for not accepting the claims of cold fusion than anyone else in the world. They are endless and boundless. I predict the acceptance of cold fusion will occur as a result of a confluence of a demonstrable achievement, as well as an increased awareness and understanding. Acceptance, I predict, will not come from one without the other. Will that demo come from a commercial entity or a government entity? I cannot predict that at this time. Your comment: "This sort of problem will not be solved without the involvement of the entire worldwide physics community" strikes me as somewhat peculiar. To me it sounds a little like "the problem of the horseless carriage will not be solved without the involvement of the buggy manufacturers." At this point in time, the most important skillset for making cold fusion work appears to be materials science knowledge, not physics. Skeptics? Using ridicule? Their time is up. Their tricks of using logical fallacies are over. The mass media is up on this. The science media is soon to follow. Now I don't mean to imply that they are all malicious - I believe many of them feel they have good intentions. If you find any knowledgeable skeptics, please send them my way. I'd love to talk with them. I'm engaged in a lengthy, detailed conversation with Shanahan at the moment, but I don't know anyone else who fits into this category. For more of my thoughts go here: http://newenergytimes.com/Reports/ColdFusionProblem.htm P.S. I'm a former bit-head too. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 14:13:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ULCtPq016988; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ULCncl016929; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:12:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:14:52 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Who's our best bet? I bet Dennis Cravens would opt in. But we need one >we know will work. Would Fleishmann agree to share the secret to the alloy? Bad news, Terry. F&P never new the alloy formula. JM is the only one who does. How possible? Like this: (simplified) FP did an experiment. If failed, they sent the sample back to JM, said it didn't work. JM sent another sample. It worked, they told JM. Feedback went to JM; JM learned. FP never did their own assays on the Pd. Unfortunate? You better believe it. I vaguely remembering that I owed you a response to something about this thread but I can't recall what that was. I just replied to Walter right now - if that (or the referenced article I wrote) doesn't incorporate a sufficient answer, would you kindly ping me back? s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 14:53:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4ULqsnr007313; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:52:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4ULqqYG007276; Tue, 30 May 2006 14:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:52:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060530153556.03dc3840@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_mUobBLQNEmF64p8jd95dwQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_mUobBLQNEmF64p8jd95dwQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jed Rothwell wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars . . . If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better or worse than hot fusion. I meant the first one would cost billions of dollars. The R&D would cost billions. Setting up new production lines would cost additional billions, but of course you do not have to pay for all production lines before you get any payback. Once actual commercial devices are mass-produced they will cost less than today's gasoline powered motors. As I told Randi, I base this estimate on the cost of developing the Prius hybrid engine, which came in at ~$1 billion as I recall. Compared to cold fusion that was a minor incremental improvement over existing technology. Actually, hot fusion has cost about $100 billion so far it would cost at least that much again to make the first prototype. Cold fusion would probably cost less than 5% of that right through to the first production lines. To put things in perspective, in 2005 US consumers paid $8.6 billion for "data applications" on their cell phones, mainly downloading songs and ring tones. See: http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71016-0.html?tw=wn_index_10 - Jed Ok, ok... I under estimated hot fusion costs by a factor of 100. :-) Harry --Boundary_(ID_mUobBLQNEmF64p8jd95dwQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Jed Rothwell wrote:

Harry Veeder wrote:

I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars . . .


If it will cost billions of dollars, then cold fusion is no better or worse than hot fusion.

I meant the first one would cost billions of dollars. The R&D would cost billions. Setting up new production lines would cost additional billions, but of course you do not have to pay for all production lines before you get any payback. Once actual commercial devices are mass-produced they will cost less than today's gasoline powered motors.

As I told Randi, I base this estimate on the cost of developing the Prius hybrid engine, which came in at ~$1 billion as I recall. Compared to cold fusion that was a minor incremental improvement over existing technology.

Actually, hot fusion has cost about $100 billion so far it would cost at least that much again to make the first prototype. Cold fusion would probably cost less than 5% of that right through to the first production lines.

To put things in perspective, in 2005 US consumers paid $8.6 billion for "data applications" on their cell phones, mainly downloading songs and ring tones. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71016-0.html?tw=wn_index_10

<http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71016-0.html?tw=wn_index_10> - Jed


Ok, ok... I under estimated hot fusion costs by a factor of 100. :-)

Harry


--Boundary_(ID_mUobBLQNEmF64p8jd95dwQ)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 17:23:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V0NKnX025758; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:23:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V0NImG025740; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:23:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:23:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:23:11 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit Bad news, Terry. F&P never (k)new the alloy formula. <><><><><><> This sorta PISSES ME OFF. Sorry. As I recall, Sir Martin *implied* that he knew what was going on. But, if he doesn't . . . someone surely does. These people better hope I never hit the lottery. BTW, the operative word here is 'hit'. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 17:27:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V0RNDQ029099; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:27:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V0RMYY029081; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:27:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:27:14 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8526019D6596B-14E0-9C4D@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530133405.02aba000@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530133405.02aba000@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit I'm engaged in a lengthy, detailed conversation with Shanahan at the moment, but I don't know anyone else who fits into this category. <><><><><><> Be careful with Kirk. He has vested interest in 3H production. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 17:37:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V0bNM3005343; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:37:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V0bJWJ005281; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:37:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:37:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173746.02b47008@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:39:32 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <8C8526019D6596B-14E0-9C4D@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530133405.02aba000@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8526019D6596B-14E0-9C4D@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Be careful with Kirk. He has vested interest in 3H production. You mean he'd like to see a cheap way to make it? Like from cf? Or he fears the competition from cf? s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 17:45:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V0jDPF012496; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V0jCXY012484; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:45:04 -0400 Message-Id: <8C8526297416253-14E0-9CC9@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530133405.02aba000@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8526019D6596B-14E0-9C4D@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173746.02b47008@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173746.02b47008@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4V0jBJs012464 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit >Be careful with Kirk. He has vested interest in 3H production.    You mean he'd like to see a cheap way to make it? Like from cf?  Or he fears the competition from cf?  <><><><><><> SRP *was* the only source for tritium production. Then they shut down the 3H reactor saying that they would recycle the product with a 12 yr HL. Of late, it seems that *we* (US) plan to build a multi megadollar 3H production facility. Nice job for KS. I once asked KS about Claytor's (?) results and he poo-poo them. (Help me out here Vorts.) I guess you could google "tritium production". Terry ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 18:39:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V10icH025675; Tue, 30 May 2006 18:00:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V10YnW025591; Tue, 30 May 2006 18:00:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:00:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:00:21 -0400 Message-Id: <8C85264B9AF851F-14E0-9D61@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> From: hohlrauml6d@netscape.net References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Netscape WebMail 17673 Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4V10SpI025527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit Yikes. I didn't know that "Blanton" was an Italian name.  <><><><><> I have grandchildren. Their lives are worth far more than my single one. I hope CARNIVORE is listenin'. I used to be a conservative. Now I am someone's worst enema. T ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 18:42:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V0jXWN012700; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V0jU6K012648; Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:45:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:47:42 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >This sorta PISSES ME OFF. Sorry. No apologies required. It would be upsetting to all of us. >As I recall, Sir Martin *implied* that he knew what was going on. Yeah, well, somebody I talked to, can't remember off the top of my head, gave me a whole sorry detailed run down on this whole matter. Sir Martin's not known for being very direct and forthcoming, especially about possibly embarrassing things that got overlooked. > But, if he doesn't . . . someone surely does. Yes, abserlutely. The folks at JM do. Last I heard, it's their trade secret and they don't feel like being philanthropic. >These people better hope I never hit the lottery. BTW, the operative word >here is 'hit'. Yikes. I didn't know that "Blanton" was an Italian name. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 20:55:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V3t4kS016288; Tue, 30 May 2006 20:55:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V3t27v016269; Tue, 30 May 2006 20:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:55:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530204445.02bfa9e0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:57:10 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: science by press release Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_111806187==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_111806187==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Somewhere I read that after the Belgium agreement last week, participant countries must go to their local governments and get local financial commitments for their share of the dues to this club. I am getting the distinct feeling that the U.S. folks (probably worldwide, too) in MCF are scrambling to position themselves as recipients of this forthcoming score. >Physicists >persevere in quest for inexhaustible >energy >source (Stewart Prager) >EurekAlert (press release) - Washington,DC,USA >... the culmination of years of research by scores of scientists, and is >poised to answer long-standing questions about the real-world viability of >fusion energy. ... I love this line: "culmination of years of research" I guess that's a nice way to say, "After 55 years and 28 Tokamaks have failed to make excess energy" Or do you think I am being cynical? s --=====================_111806187==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Somewhere I read that after the Belgium agreement last week, participant countries must go to their local governments and get local financial commitments for their share of the dues to this club.

I am getting the distinct feeling that the U.S. folks (probably worldwide, too) in MCF are scrambling to position themselves as recipients of this forthcoming score.

Physicists persevere in quest for inexhaustible energy source  (Stewart Prager)
EurekAlert (press release) - Washington,DC,USA
... the culmination of years of research by scores of scientists, and is poised to answer long-standing questions about the real-world viability of fusion energy. ...

I love this line:  "culmination of years of research" 

I guess that's a nice way to say, "After 55 years and 28 Tokamaks have failed to make excess energy"

Or do you think I am being cynical?

s --=====================_111806187==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 20:56:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V3uRm1017138; Tue, 30 May 2006 20:56:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V3uPUg017104; Tue, 30 May 2006 20:56:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:56:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should ... X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060531035622.4CFC32F5B1@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 23:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: (snip) > Maybe if the cold fusioneers weren't looking so hard for transmutations > they would have discovered Makarova's magnetic carbon years before she > did. At least they can produce a version more easily: Makarova has to > process her buckyballs into a polymer using pressure of a million pounds > per square inch at a temperature of more than 1,300 degrees Fahrenheit > (forgive the non-SI units). So if your "iron" instead turns out to be > magnetic buckyballs you've got yourself a potentially useful patent right > there. > At any rate, instead assuming actual iron, for our purposes I recommend > that the residue be tested for the presence of iron, tested using multiple > sensitive "iron-clad" chemical tests. No need to bring in a mass > spectrometer unless JREF insists. > Unfortunately -- as I explained to Jed in a private email -- any evidence > of "transmutation" introduces a problem: The counter-claim that the new > elements were already somewhere present in the experimental apparatus > before the experiment started. So we have to introduce additional control > experimental set-ups that can be examined, and to have a reasonable number > of experiments and controls we have to prepare at least six experimental > set-ups beforehand, choosing by chance which three of the six to run. If > the results are positive and consistent, the chance that only the three > "rigged" experimental setups were chosen is the combination of six things, > taken three at a time; C(6,3) = 20. One chance in 20. (snip) I don't how others have done this, but here's what I did some years back. I used spectroscopic grade carbon rods, so virtually no chance of contamination. An arc was struck between the rods at 35VDC, don't know what the current was, but the rods were held by hand and rubbed against each other until a significant amount of "slag" was collected below them in a ceramic crucible. A strong magnet was used to separate the resulting magnetic particles. Some of these particles were pounded with a hammer to see if they were malleable, and in fact they flattened out into shiny little disks. In other words, they're metal. The rest of the particles were dissolved in HCl and then given a ferricyanide test for iron. You get that beautiful blue color. What else do you want? Unused rods were crushed and tested with the same magnet. No magnetic particles were in evidence. Yes folks, it's transmutation. It's easy and repeatable, and should be used as at least an indicator that CF is possible. I can't imagine that others haven't done more or less the same procedures, unless they were afraid of the results. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 21:44:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V4iIS7015242; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:44:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V4iDuT015176; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:44:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:44:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005001c6846c$d8ae6500$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <20060531035622.4CFC32F5B1@xprdmxin.myway.com> Subject: Magnetic Carbon Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:44:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Although there are copious reports of suspected transmutation with carbon, there is also the curious fact that carbon apparently can become ferromagnetic while remaining carbon: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/11/7 This possibly has to do with the formation of 'excitons' of carbon, which are larger than a bucky ball - but smaller than fine 'soot' - IOW particulates of several hundred atoms, and this nanostructure stays active even if the particulates are bound into a larger glob, reminiscent of the magnetic domain. In addition to Michael's experimental evidence- there is similar work by Naudin, Blaze Labs, Bill Alek, possibly Les Case, and others. It goes without saying that none of this prior work will get proper attribution when some National Lab picks up on the idea and does a major study with a few dozen self-promoting and fully credentialed Phizzix-Panjandrum-muck-a-mucks.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 30 21:58:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V4pSrt021037; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:51:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V4pPfK020958; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:51:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:51:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 00:50:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should ... In-reply-to: <20060531035622.4CFC32F5B1@xprdmxin.myway.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > > I don't how others have done this, but here's what I did some years back. > I used spectroscopic grade carbon rods, so virtually no chance of > contamination. An arc was struck between the rods at 35VDC, don't know > what the current was, but the rods were held by hand and rubbed against each > other until a significant amount of "slag" was collected below them in a > ceramic crucible. > > A strong magnet was used to separate the resulting magnetic particles. Some of > these particles were pounded with a hammer to see if they were malleable, and > in fact they flattened out into shiny little disks. In other words, they're > metal. > > The rest of the particles were dissolved in HCl and then given a ferricyanide > test for iron. You get that beautiful blue color. What else do you want? Did you find any gold? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 01:02:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4V82D2t019960; Wed, 31 May 2006 01:02:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4V82AqQ019931; Wed, 31 May 2006 01:02:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 01:02:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c68488$7b779110$0201a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <8C8522EEF03EE33-2164-2A84F@mblkn-m17.sysops.aol.com> Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:30:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote <> Yes, that's what I was driving at. I bet Randi would not pay out - however the publicity might be even better... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 04:02:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VB1gpv004352; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:01:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VB1G6c003955; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:01:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:01:48 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:01:49 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:01:50 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe I've been thinking about this exactly backwards. In light of the carbon-arc experimental results, maybe Tatiana Makarova's "magnetic buckyballs" are just tiny bits of ordinary iron embedded in carbon, produced by CF-like transformation under high temperature and pressure. No electricity needed. Shh! Don't tell her! I want Michael Foster to get the million bucks! -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 04:03:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VAiIIJ024305; Wed, 31 May 2006 03:44:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VAiFjS024265; Wed, 31 May 2006 03:44:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 03:44:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:44:39 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 06:44:47 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 06:44:50 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > I don't how others have done this, but here's what I did some > years back. I used spectroscopic grade carbon rods, so virtually > no chance of contamination. An arc was struck between the rods > at 35VDC, don't know what the current was, but the rods were held > by hand and rubbed against each other until a significant amount > of "slag" was collected below them in a ceramic crucible. > > A strong magnet was used to separate the resulting magnetic > particles. Some of these particles were pounded with a hammer to > see if they were malleable, and in fact they flattened out into > shiny little disks. In other words, they're metal. > > The rest of the particles were dissolved in HCl and then given a > ferricyanide test for iron. You get that beautiful blue color. > What else do you want? > > Unused rods were crushed and tested with the same magnet. No > magnetic particles were in evidence. Yes folks, it's > transmutation. It's easy and repeatable, and should be used as > at least an indicator that CF is possible. I can't imagine that > others haven't done more or less the same procedures, unless they > were afraid of the results. > > M. Michael, YES!!!! You are but a few months or less away from a million bucks and perhaps some unwanted fame as the savior of cold fusion. Your experiment shows both transmutation and that the strange and unaccountable energy source of CF can also act as a sink -- imagine how much fusion energy is produced in converting carbon (or oxygen or nitrogen -- air is involved too you know) to visible amounts of iron in a few minutes. It should at least have taken the roof off your house. Avoiding the water environment is an important simplification. In fact the whole experiment is so simple... Still, you need to think of ways that it can be questioned, like: - None of the electrical connections (except maybe back at the battery) can be iron-based. - You have to test for iron in at least two chemical ways (and ferromagnetism is a nice back-up). - You also have to re-test unused rods for the presence of iron chemically AND you have to test for the presence of any iron-containing compounds. Consider getting the advice of a good analytic chemist or two. - I've already stated my desire to avoid mass spectroscopy but I'm sure JREF will insist upon it. Find a couple of labs that'll give you good turnaround. - And lots of other things, e.g., seal the collecting magnet in a new sealable plastic bag. Crucible and all equipment must be tested for the presence of iron, etc., etc. Much of this back-up contamination prevention can be worked out with the JREF representatives in your discussions with them. (So maybe you don't have to do as much thinking as I've proposed.) But BEFORE you do all that you'll want to be first in line: Get the Challenge rules (below the main Challenge page http://www.randi.org/research/index.html), print it out and submit your application (notary involved). Do it TODAY!!! Send your application by FedEx at their highest priority. Don't forget the SASE! Copy your test protocol into an email to challenge@randi.org and tell them your formal notarized application is on its way. Remember, a million bucks is on the line. However... Sadly, I must strongly suggest that you avoid all reference to "cold fusion" in your application. Jed's insistence that Randi deal with the complexities of real science seems to have "poisoned the well" in that regard. Fortunately this transmutation experiment is so simple and so far removed from conventional understanding of the subject I'm sure the CF connection won't be made unless you mention it. "Applicant states that he can convert carbon into iron by application of electricity." Then detail your method much as you have above. Simplicity! I love it! Michael, the very best of luck to you. And if you worry about how this will change your life, remember: - Your purpose is to alert the science community to the reality of cold fusion (CMNS/LENR/CANR) and its potential as an energy source. Something that's pretty damn important. - Of course your experiment has no such potential and you can always give away your prize money (like to some deserving academic CF researchers ). Talk as much as you can stand to the press when they stop you in the street but avoid giving formal interviews. Always mention the CF connection. Freely admit the basic idea is not original to you. Then just say you did it for the money or "for fun". - We Vortexians are with you! Again, Good Luck Michael! Please keep us informed of your progress. Gratefully, Walter Faxon From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 04:41:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VBefov030705; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:40:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VBedVF030669; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:40:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:40:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:41:08 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:41:12 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:41:15 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: POSSIBLY DUPLICATE POSTING -------------------------- Michael Foster wrote: > I don't how others have done this, but here's what I did some > years back. I used spectroscopic grade carbon rods, so virtually > no chance of contamination. An arc was struck between the rods > at 35VDC, don't know what the current was, but the rods were held > by hand and rubbed against each other until a significant amount > of "slag" was collected below them in a ceramic crucible. > > A strong magnet was used to separate the resulting magnetic > particles. Some of these particles were pounded with a hammer to > see if they were malleable, and in fact they flattened out into > shiny little disks. In other words, they're metal. > > The rest of the particles were dissolved in HCl and then given a > ferricyanide test for iron. You get that beautiful blue color. > What else do you want? > > Unused rods were crushed and tested with the same magnet. No > magnetic particles were in evidence. Yes folks, it's > transmutation. It's easy and repeatable, and should be used as > at least an indicator that CF is possible. I can't imagine that > others haven't done more or less the same procedures, unless they > were afraid of the results. > > M. Michael, YES!!!! You are but a few months or less away from a million bucks and perhaps some unwanted fame as the savior of cold fusion. Your experiment shows both transmutation and that the strange and unaccountable energy source of CF can also act as a sink -- imagine how much fusion energy is produced in converting carbon (or oxygen or nitrogen -- air is involved too you know) to visible amounts of iron in a few minutes. It should at least have taken the roof off your house. Avoiding the water environment is an important simplification. In fact the whole experiment is so simple... Still, you need to think of ways that it can be questioned, like: - None of the electrical connections (except maybe back at the battery) can be iron-based. - You have to test for iron in at least two chemical ways (and ferromagnetism is a nice back-up). - You also have to re-test unused rods for the presence of iron chemically AND you have to test for the presence of any iron-containing compounds. Consider getting the advice of a good analytic chemist or two. - I've already stated my desire to avoid mass spectroscopy but I'm sure JREF will insist upon it. Find a couple of labs that'll give you good turnaround. - And lots of other things, e.g., seal the collecting magnet in a new sealable plastic bag. Crucible and all equipment must be tested for the presence of iron, etc., etc. Much of this back-up contamination prevention can be worked out with the JREF representatives in your discussions with them. (So maybe you don't have to do as much thinking as I've proposed.) But BEFORE you do all that you'll want to be first in line: Get the Challenge rules (below the main Challenge page http://www.randi.org/research/index.html), print it out and submit your application (notary involved). Do it TODAY!!! Send your application by FedEx at their highest priority. Don't forget the SASE! Copy your test protocol into an email to challenge@randi.org and tell them your formal notarized application is on its way. Remember, a million bucks is on the line. However... Sadly, I must strongly suggest that you avoid all reference to "cold fusion" in your application. Jed's insistence that Randi deal with the complexities of real science seems to have "poisoned the well" in that regard. Fortunately this transmutation experiment is so simple and so far removed from conventional understanding of the subject I'm sure the CF connection won't be made unless you mention it. "Applicant states that he can convert carbon into iron by application of electricity." Then detail your method much as you have above. Simplicity! I love it! Michael, the very best of luck to you. And if you worry about how this will change your life, remember: - Your purpose is to alert the science community to the reality of cold fusion (CMNS/LENR/CANR) and its potential as an energy source. Something that's pretty damn important. - Of course your experiment has no such potential and you can always give away your prize money (like to some deserving academic CF researchers ). Talk as much as you can stand to the press when they stop you in the street but avoid giving formal interviews. Always mention the CF connection. Freely admit the basic idea is not original to you. Then just say you did it for the money or "for fun". - We Vortexians are with you! Again, Good Luck Michael! Please keep us informed of your progress. Gratefully, Walter Faxon From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 05:00:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VC0BkO011826; Wed, 31 May 2006 05:00:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VBuemf009330; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:56:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:56:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:55:53 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:56:14 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 07:56:17 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Walter Faxon wrote: > >> So maybe scientists in Japan (or Italy or Russia, or ...) will in a >> few years finally solve cold fusion . . . > > Not a chance. In Japan they will all be retired or dead in a few years. All the more important to get CF off its butt here in the West, then. > > >> The science of cold fusion is a mess. > > Sez who? > > >> What started as D-D fusion in a metal lattice without radiation >> (just two or three miracles) now has "transmutations" occurring >> everywhere, with energy appearing and disappearing from apparently >> nowhere . . . > > That is not a "mess" -- that is what the experiments reveal is > happening. A natural phenomenon cannot be described as a mess. Not the phenomena, the "science"; our organized understanding of the phenomena. That's what's a mess. > > >> Winning Randi's prize will do that. > > The likelihood of that Pons of Fleischmann will win a Nobel prize > is far greater than the likelihood that cold fusion will win Randi's > prize. Randi made it clear that we are disqualified. He will not > look at experiments or read about them and that he does not accept > the kind of proof they produce. There is no other kind of proof. If > you do not accept experiments such as Iwamura's or the data from > BARC, then you do not believe cold fusion exists and nothing can > persuade you. > > Midway through our discussion, Randi suddenly changed the terms of > his challenge from merely ridiculous to utterly impossible. Instead > of demanding experimental proof that cold fusion exists (which could > hypothetically be given if he understood anything about physics), he > suddenly demanded a practical commercial device instead: > > "Let's leave it here: the million-dollar prize of the James Randi > Educational Foundation is available for the operation of a practical > working version of the 'cold fusion' claim." > > I explained to him that such a device would cost billions of dollars, > and that this is completely different from experimental proof. I > expect he has no clue what I am talking about. In any case, he would > not recognize scientific proof if it bit him on the butt. > > - Jed Jed, I suspect that Randi was just tired of talking to you. Look at it from his point of view: It's his prize, he can decide what sorts of hoops claimants have to jump through in order to win it. You wanted him to change his rules to accommodate real science. Asking for a cold fusion engine gets you off his back with the added plus of annoying the heck out of you. You'll notice that he states that a "practical working version" of cold fusion can win. He doesn't actually say that a "non-practical" version can't. But please, Jed! Don't use my reasoning as an excuse to bother Randi again. I already warned you once about annoying him. (They've disqualified challengers just for being insulting -- imagine!) In particular I don't want you to screw up what seems to be an extremely simple and reproducible CF-related transmutation experiment that Vortexian Michael Foster may use to apply for the Challenge -- see the thread starting at http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13665.html And they say cold fusion is hard! Regards, Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 06:28:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VDS4d8010215; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:28:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VDS2Kx010189; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:28:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:28:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002601c684b6$03bfbed0$85027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:27:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0023_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote... Although there are copious reports of suspected transmutation with=20 carbon, there is also the curious fact that carbon apparently can=20 become ferromagnetic while remaining carbon: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/11/7 This possibly has to do with the formation of 'excitons' of=20 carbon, which are larger than a bucky ball - but smaller than fine=20 'soot' - IOW particulates of several hundred atoms, and this=20 nanostructure stays active even if the particulates are bound into=20 a larger glob, reminiscent of the magnetic domain. In addition to Michael's experimental evidence- there is similar=20 work by Naudin, Blaze Labs, Bill Alek, possibly Les Case, and=20 others. It goes without saying that none of this prior work will get=20 proper attribution when some National Lab picks up on the idea and=20 does a major study with a few dozen self-promoting and fully=20 credentialed Phizzix-Panjandrum-muck-a-mucks.... Howdy Jones, Leave it to a thinker like Jones to cut to the chase. Even simpler, = consider ..plain ole everyday steel.. how the heck do you get steel of = of iron.. well, ya.. put a little carbon in it. Ha! ,ya say !! Not that simple, No!, it ain't that simple or somebody = in the 20th century would have figured out that "Damascus Steel" had to = be something special. It was something special and Michael Foster = alludes to the fact. Meanwhile, these 21st century P.T.Barnums are using the internet to = promote "Foundations" et.al. by offering a kazillion bucks to anyone = that can prove 3 plus 2=3D 7, Why am I not surprised that I see a = comparison with the shucks between "Randi" and "Tokamak". Gosh, what a selection of names.. and they accuse "cold fusion" of being = a non descriptive term. Randi Tolomak.. ain't he kin to that Faxon = family over in Dime Box ,Texas? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote...

Although there are copious reports of suspected transmutation with=20
carbon, there is also the curious fact that carbon apparently can =
become=20 ferromagnetic while remaining carbon:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/11/7

This = possibly=20 has to do with the formation of 'excitons' of
carbon, which are = larger than=20 a bucky ball - but smaller than fine
'soot' - IOW particulates of = several=20 hundred atoms, and this
nanostructure stays active even if the = particulates=20 are bound into
a larger glob, reminiscent of the magnetic = domain.

In=20 addition to Michael's experimental evidence- there is similar
work = by=20 Naudin, Blaze Labs, Bill Alek, possibly Les Case, and =
others.

It goes=20 without saying that none of this prior work will get
proper = attribution when=20 some National Lab picks up on the idea and
does a major study with a = few=20 dozen self-promoting and fully
credentialed=20 Phizzix-Panjandrum-muck-a-mucks....

 

Howdy Jones,

Leave it to a thinker like Jones to cut to the chase. Even simpler, = consider=20 ..plain ole everyday steel.. how the heck do you get steel of of iron.. = well,=20 ya.. put a little carbon in it.

Ha! ,ya say !! Not that simple, No!,  it ain't that simple or = somebody=20 in the 20th century would have figured out that  "Damascus Steel" = had to be=20 something special. It was something special and Michael Foster alludes = to the=20 fact.

Meanwhile, these 21st century P.T.Barnums are using the internet = to=20 promote "Foundations" et.al. by offering a kazillion bucks to anyone = that can=20 prove 3 plus 2=3D 7,  Why am I not surprised that I see a = comparison with=20 the shucks between "Randi" and "Tokamak".

Gosh, what a selection of names.. and they accuse "cold fusion" of = being a=20 non descriptive term.    Randi Tolomak.. ain't he kin to = that=20 Faxon family over in Dime Box ,Texas?

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002101c684b6$03226d60$85027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C6848C.1A5BA7A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 06:50:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VDo7sE027320; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:50:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VDfcx8021003; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531093635.03f88790@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:41:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should ... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: >Unfortunately -- as I explained to Jed in a private email -- any >evidence of "transmutation" introduces a problem: The counter-claim >that the new elements were already somewhere present in the >experimental apparatus before the experiment started. I forgot to respond. In the Iwamura experiment, that is physically impossible. No such contamination exists in the universe. The starting material is carefully selected to ensure that the isotopes of the transmuted material will be completely unnatural. This makes the transmuted material easy to recognize, and it rules out contamination. That is described in the papers several times, in detail. With all due respect, I suggest you read the papers more carefully before commenting on them. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 06:59:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VDwxel003956; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:59:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VDwtFt003892; Wed, 31 May 2006 06:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:58:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531094654.03f8c568@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:58:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: >All the more important to get CF off its butt here in the West, then. As a practical matter, what do you suggest we do? Rob a bank to finance the experiments? >Not the phenomena, the "science"; our organized understanding of the >phenomena. That's what's a mess. Then most scientific understanding is a mess. We know practically nothing, and most of what we think we know will turn out to be wrong. See the map in chapter 19 of my book. >Jed, I suspect that Randi was just tired of talking to you. Not half as much as I am tired of hearing him spout off about a subject he knows nothing about! >But please, Jed! Don't use my reasoning as an excuse to bother Randi >again. I already warned you once about annoying him. Seriously, Walter, why would I care about annoying Randi? Or Huizenga, Taubes or Park? One of the few pleasures this job offers is annoying such people. >In particular I don't want you to screw up what seems to be an >extremely simple and reproducible CF-related transmutation >experiment that Vortexian Michael Foster may use to apply for the >Challenge . . . Don't be ridiculous! Randi and his friends would never admit that such an experiment is real. I have shown them irrefutable proof from five top laboratories in Japan and France. It has not made the slightest impression on them. They will not admit it until the experiment is endorsed by major mainstream institutions and it appears on the front page of time magazine. Then they will say they believed it all along. In fact they will take credit for it. In any case, I am not Michael Foster. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 07:09:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VE9RBv015412; Wed, 31 May 2006 07:09:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VE9Isg015274; Wed, 31 May 2006 07:09:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:09:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531095900.03ee9008@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:04:05 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >Bad news, Terry. F&P never new the alloy formula. JM is the only one who does. Actually, the situation is not quite as grim as that. First of all, Fleischmann described the alloy in some detail. See p. 3 here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancoldfusion.pdf Second, several other researchers know how to make promising alloys. For example, Arata's materials probably would work better than anything JM has ever come up with, and Imam's Pd-B alloys work quite well. Unfortunately, Arata is very old and I do not think he will be capable of doing experiments much longer, and the Navy will not allow Imam to produce his materials. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 07:18:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VEIPvh023662; Wed, 31 May 2006 07:18:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VEIH1A023584; Wed, 31 May 2006 07:18:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:18:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:18:37 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 10:18:49 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 10:18:52 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote (heavily snipped): > Your message also demonstrates that you've taken the initiative > that disingenuous skeptics have not - you have made a serious > effort to learn about this subject. I've been following things since 1989. > On to your own personal inquiry in this matter. > > What will it take? What sort of demonstration? You're asking me what would convince me personally that cold fusion is real. Well, I've had mood swings both ways. It often depends on what I've just read. I found "Bad Science" to be particularly distressing since it echoed so much of what I had read in the papers years earlier. Also disturbing was a 2004 newspaper article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54964-2004Nov16.html) talking about how even CF researchers agree that much CF research is awful, one supporter calling the papers "mixed toxic waste". And in my last post to you I mentioned the extremely "iffy" ethical status of the new CF companies and how no big companies are doing research. Well, warning flags are certainly flying high. But the real question is, how does a layman evaluate ANY scientific result? That is the fundamental problem with organized skepticism because I simply don't think layman have the background to evaluate most science or pseudo-science claims; we HAVE to rely on the experts. And here in the West at least, the experts -- or those claiming to quote them -- say cold fusion is bunk. We assume the impartiality of the experts. They don't lie; they're scientists! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get the same training and come to the same conclusions. That's what makes science different from theology. So maybe we somehow hear about "1000 positive refereed CF papers". The experts that we know don't mention them but they still say bunk. The experts also say CF researchers are "incompetent" and "deluded". Sometimes they even say "frauds". I've read the early history; if nothing else F&P have a lot of misbehavior to answer for. Maybe they were deluded. Maybe those who are following them are equally deluded. It could be explained both ways. How am I as a layman supposed to know? Would a Ph.D. help? So well, hey, maybe there IS some sort of systematic error that explains the excess heat results in those "1000 positive refereed CF papers". At least one poster on sci.physics.fusion thinks so. He's a scientist. Some other presumably knowledgeable posters there also say the CF mass spec results are wrong. How much work would I have to do to evaluate that? So "refereed"... Hmmm... How many of the referees were also CF advocates? Well, you can see what's happening. Speculation upon speculation. All because I don't know enough and would have to train for years to overcome that lack. We all know that ain't happening. That's why beating Randi at his game would give me some satisfaction. At least mainstream science would have to shake off its apathy and try again. Maybe they could "explain it away" like they did before. But it would be especially entertaining if they couldn't. And freeing, too. I could finally put my occasional obsession with this subject to bed. > I predict the acceptance of cold fusion will occur as a result of > a confluence of a demonstrable achievement, as well as an increased > awareness and understanding. Acceptance, I predict, will not come > from one without the other. > > Will that demo come from a commercial entity or a government entity? > I cannot predict that at this time. It doesn't look like it's coming from anywhere right now. How many decades are you willing to wait? > Your comment: "This sort of problem will not be solved without the > involvement of the entire worldwide physics community" strikes me as > somewhat peculiar. To me it sounds a little like "the problem of the > horseless carriage will not be solved without the involvement of the > buggy manufacturers." At this point in time, the most important skillset > for making cold fusion work appears to be materials science knowledge, > not physics. Materials science presupposes good knowledge of how materials can be expected to behave. In cold fusion they are not behaving like they're supposed to. We will need new physics and physics is not a field for laymen. The physicists will need time to come to grips with the new phenomena but they're the only ones who can. > Skeptics? Using ridicule? Their time is up. Their tricks of using > logical fallacies are over. The mass media is up on this. The science > media is soon to follow. Steven, I believe you are indulging in wishful thinking. People LOVE ridicule; it's fun! The skeptics will continue to use it successfully until something they can't ignore proves they're wrong. Something like a demonstration that the press has to pay attention to, such as winning Randi's prize. I do have a little hope for one such demonstration sparked by this thread; see the new thread, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13665.html and particularly Michael Foster's post. > P.S. I'm a former bit-head too. I'm pre-"bit-head". I started work at the tail-end of the punched-card era. Thinking back, I find I miss running my fingers through a box full of chads... Regards, Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 08:21:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VFKaLE003338; Wed, 31 May 2006 08:20:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VFKXZY003289; Wed, 31 May 2006 08:20:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:20:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001601c684c5$b8a48010$85027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Cold Fusion advocates should... Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:20:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6849B.CF3EE240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6849B.CF3EE240 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6849B.CF41EF80" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6849B.CF41EF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWalter wrote.. Steven, I believe you are indulging in wishful thinking. People LOVE ridicule; it's fun! The skeptics will continue to use it successfully until something they can't ignore proves they're wrong. Something like = a demonstration that the press has to pay attention to, such as winning Randi's prize. Howdy Faxon, Skeptics are never proven wrong. Overlooked in your diatride is the = simple fact that science discovery is cumulative.. or at least so since = the internet age where information can be shared and criticized. Also = overlooked are the myriads of "quiet" research programs continuing = worldwide. Dig around any US University engineering research dept and = notice the number of " spinoff" public-private initiatives that have " = new energy" as their focus. My friends at Texas A&M indicate the subject = of cold fusion is a hot button issue and some serious investigations are = being pursued " off campus" in the research parks. These investigations = are and will remain " quiet". You are correct.. it's fun to make " = tarbabies". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6849B.CF41EF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Walter wrote..

Steven, I believe you are indulging in wishful thinking.  People = LOVE
ridicule; it's fun!  The skeptics will continue to use it=20 successfully
until something they can't ignore proves they're = wrong. =20 Something like a
demonstration that the press has to pay attention = to, such=20 as winning
Randi's prize.

Howdy Faxon,

Skeptics are never proven wrong. Overlooked in your diatride is the = simple=20 fact that science discovery is cumulative.. or at least so since the = internet=20 age where information can be shared and criticized. Also overlooked are = the=20 myriads of "quiet" research programs continuing worldwide. Dig around = any US=20 University engineering research dept and notice the number of " spinoff" = public-private initiatives that have " new energy" as their focus. My = friends at=20 Texas A&M indicate the subject of cold fusion is a hot button issue = and some=20 serious investigations are being pursued " off campus" in the research = parks.=20 These investigations are and will remain " quiet". You are correct.. = it's fun to=20 make " tarbabies".

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C6849B.CF41EF80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6849B.CF3EE240 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c684c5$b80bc280$85027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C6849B.CF3EE240-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 08:55:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VFcBbB016648; Wed, 31 May 2006 08:38:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VFc7g2016588; Wed, 31 May 2006 08:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:38:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531103809.03f8ab60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:37:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Walter Faxon wrote: >Also disturbing was a 2004 newspaper article >(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54964-2004Nov16.html) >talking about how even CF researchers agree that much CF research is >awful, one supporter calling the papers "mixed toxic waste". That comment was uncalled for. All new science is a mixture of truth and error. There is nothing disturbing about that, anymore than it is disturbing to see a baby make a mess while learning how to eat. >But the real question is, how does a layman evaluate ANY scientific >result? That is the fundamental problem with organized skepticism >because I simply don't think layman have the background to evaluate >most science or pseudo-science claims; we HAVE to rely on the experts. No we do not. For one thing, there are no real experts in cold fusion yet. No one knows how it works. Second, in my opinion, you can only a scientific claims based on your own knowledge and experience. You do not have sufficient knowledge and experience you simply cannot judge the matter and you should remain neutral. If you are a reporter or politician, and your job requires that you reach some sort of preliminary conclusion, I suggest you read my paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf Quoting myself: "In the end, you must depend upon your own judgment. If you cannot tell a reciprocating engine from a turbine, perhaps you should refrain from writing about the Titanic. Reporters, historians, and scientists who know nothing about electrochemistry and calorimetry should refrain from writing about cold fusion. If a reporter must write about cold fusion, he should search the Internet for articles about it. . . . A reporter who does not understand these papers must do his best with summaries written for the layman, and admit to his readers that he does not fully grasp the technical issues." Of course there is nothing wrong with depending upon experts. Doing so is not the logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority." See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html However, when the authorities do not agree -- which is certainly the case with cold fusion -- then relying upon them is a logical fallacy and your only recourses are to judge the situation yourself, or not judge it at all. Any attempt to judge something over your head will probably only result in you making a fool of yourself. You will make statements not in evidence or logical fallacies. Randi's made what might constitute a record number of both kinds of errors in a small number of words. The Taubes book has hundreds of outrageous assertions that violate basic science and common sense. (See the paper listed above for a few examples.) >And here in the West at least, the experts -- or those claiming to >quote them -- say cold fusion is bunk. Actually, the people who say that are not experts or even wannabee experts. Most of them have no standing in the field and no knowledge of the research. When you question them you will soon discover they have read nothing and they know nothing. Their statements are mainly handwaving. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique >So maybe we somehow hear about "1000 positive refereed CF papers". The >experts that we know don't mention them but they still say bunk. Experts do not mention them because they are unaware that these papers exist. Therefore, they are not experts, as I said. Anyone who does not take into account of these positive refereed CF papers is no expert. Someone who has never read Hamlet, Othello, the unmentionable Scottish play or the sonnets cannot call himself an expert on Shakespeare. >The experts also say CF researchers are "incompetent" and >"deluded". Sometimes they even say "frauds". I've read the early >history; if nothing else F&P have a lot of misbehavior to answer for. I think that is slander. I have read the early history too, and I spent many hours speaking to Fleischmann and Pons. I think their actions have been honorable, reasonable and aboveboard. Given the trying circumstances they found themselves in, their behavior has been exemplary. >Maybe they were deluded. Maybe those who are following them are >equally deluded. Not a chance. The likelihood of this many professional scientists all being deluded is so small you can dismiss it. The scientific method would not work if ~300 professional scientists could report high Sigma replicated evidence and all be wrong. Actually, if the basic cognitive abilities and the ability to do one's job could malfunction in such a large number of people, I do not think our species would have survived this long. Large groups of people are often wrong about various things, especially esoteric subjects or matters of opinion that cannot be tested directly. But they are never about basic observations, physically measurable phenomena, and work that they have done for 20, 30 or 50 years. As Bacon put it: "We have but one simple method of delivering our sentiments: namely, we must bring men to particulars, and their regular series and order, and they must for a while renounce their notions and begin to form an acquaintance with things. [physical objects] Our method and that of the skeptics agree in some respects at first setting out: but differ most widely and are completely opposed to each other in their conclusion. For they roundly assert that nothing can be known; we, that but a small part of nature can be known by the present method. Their next step, however, is to destroy the authority of the senses and understanding, whilst we invent and supply them with assistance." >It could be explained both ways. How am I as a layman supposed to >know? Would a Ph.D. help? Common sense and the solid understanding of basic physics and chemistry is not sufficient for many papers. Certainly you need a Ph.D. in order to replicate the effect. (Or you need as much knowledge and experience as a person with a Ph.D. has got.) >So well, hey, maybe there IS some sort of systematic error that >explains the excess heat results in those "1000 positive refereed CF papers". No such systematic error could exist, even in principle. For one thing, there are many different systems based on different physical principles, so you have to postulate dozens of different systematic errors. For example, you would have to show that mercury thermometers, thermistors, thermocouples and RDTs have all magically miss behaved in hundreds of experiments. That is so preposterous, I think anyone who believes it has no grasp of how instruments and machinery work, or he has a screw loose somewhere. >Some other presumably knowledgeable posters there also say the CF >mass spec results are wrong. How much work would I have to do to >evaluate that? Read a book or two about mass spectroscopy, read the papers in question, and the mass spec unit user guide (which is probably online) and you will be able to draw a reasonable conclusion. >So "refereed"... Hmmm... How many of the referees were also CF advocates? Practically none. >Well, you can see what's happening. Speculation upon speculation. Way too much speculation. I recommend you stick to physics and chemistry textbooks, and original source scientific papers instead. Also, I recommend you read Francis Bacon's book "Novum Organum" It describes the experimental method and shows how it is impossible for hundreds of researchers to be wrong on the scale you suggest may be possible. Even after 386 years it remains one of the best treatises on the scientific method. >That's why beating Randi at his game would give me some satisfaction. Randy makes the rules in his game: Dealer wins and winner deals. There is no way you could beat him because he will change the rules as soon as he sees you may win. You saw how he did that to me. Instead of talking about proof that cold fusion exists, he suddenly demanded a "practical working version." He raised the price of admission by a factor of roughly 100,000. Instead of demanding that the researchers spend ~$100,000 to persuade him, he now demands the researchers spend ~$10 billion. Randi is hopelessly muddled and ignorant. I think there is chance he or any of his friends will even bother to read the cold fusion literature. There is not a snowball's chance in hell he will admit he is wrong -- or even understand how or why he is wrong! It is a waste of time dealing with such people. The only reason I wrote to Randi was to draw out the responses he e-mailed to me, so that I could prove how intellectually dishonest and ignorant he is. The next time someone mentions Randi in a positive light, I invite you to e-mail him the exchange of messages. Anyone with half a brain will see that Randi is a fool and a blowhard. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 09:27:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VGRdLH020654; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:27:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VGRZbD020590; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:27:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:27:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531120826.03d9e140@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:26:02 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531103809.03f8ab60@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531103809.03f8ab60@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8401812==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8401812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I mis-wrote: >Second, in my opinion, you can only a scientific claims based on >your own knowledge and experience. You do not have sufficient >knowledge and experience you simply cannot judge the matter and you >should remain neutral. I meant to say: You can only judge a scientific claim based on your own knowledge and experience. If you do not have sufficient knowledge . . . Sorry about that. I am also sorry if this sounds harsh and judgmental. It is, but science calls for judgement and rigor. It also calls for people to reach a firm conclusion when the evidence is compelling. That was Bacon's point, which he reiterated: "We are not to deny the authority of the human senses and understanding, although weak; but rather to furnish them with assistance." Contrary to what some so-called skeptics say, it is not scientific to sit on the fence and declare that you cannot decide after BARC publishes an autoradiograph showing proof of massive radiation, and SRI publishes Sigma 90 calorimetry. See also my message from 16 May 2006 about Britz and Shamoo, and their sham objectivity. I find it amazing how many professional scientists such as Britz never learned the fundamentals of the scientific method, that were worked out by Bacon and others in the 17th century. They know technique only; they fail to grasp the philosophical and logical basis of their own profession. I also meant to say I think there is NO chance Randi will do his homework. I do not think he is capable of it. I suppose that negative was clear from context. I probably swallowed the "no." It is frustrating having to depend upon a computer. Someday these voice input programs will understand meaning & context enough to make corrections like that, just as human secretaries do. - Jed --=====================_8401812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I mis-wrote:

Second, in my opinion, you can only a scientific claims based on your own knowledge and experience. You do not have sufficient knowledge and experience you simply cannot judge the matter and you should remain neutral.

I meant to say:

You can only judge a scientific claim based on your own knowledge and experience. If you do not have sufficient knowledge . . .


Sorry about that. I am also sorry if this sounds harsh and judgmental. It is, but science calls for judgement and rigor. It also calls for people to reach a firm conclusion when the evidence is compelling. That was Bacon's point, which he reiterated: "We are not to deny the authority of the human senses and understanding, although weak; but rather to furnish them with assistance." Contrary to what some so-called skeptics say, it is not scientific to sit on the fence and declare that you cannot decide after BARC publishes an autoradiograph showing proof of massive radiation, and SRI publishes Sigma 90 calorimetry. See also my message from 16 May 2006 about Britz and Shamoo, and their sham objectivity.

I find it amazing how many professional scientists such as Britz never learned the fundamentals of the scientific method, that were worked out by Bacon and others in the 17th century. They know technique only; they fail to grasp the philosophical and logical basis of their own profession.


I also meant to say I think there is NO chance Randi will do his homework. I do not think he is capable of it.

I suppose that negative was clear from context. I probably swallowed the "no." It is frustrating having to depend upon a computer. Someday these voice input programs will understand meaning & context enough to make corrections like that, just as human secretaries do.

- Jed
--=====================_8401812==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 04:48:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VBm7rv003066; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:48:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VBm5B0003046; Wed, 31 May 2006 04:48:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:48:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=QXp16PZI2uv4Rwf56jS65HuTyiNUkC9CERjB0BCwfCjdlPQrG2AfDPgHTEGWudyISoVK/VOh9UqchBYwr5Gk3cst3zpzvl5xGJnlkS1e0F6ICRmdodOuDKFpjH0mtjebNZuiPcq1cJG2S/8nYcgguvT0QFPVwfDnFEJwSx0VPtc= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060531073559.01dd7ac8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:47:35 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Steve, I think my bubble just burst; reading in today's National Post (in Canada) about the Kyoto fiasco... I've seen all the stuff that's been flying into my in-box, not that I've read all of it - I don't have the time - and standing back a little and looking at all the scoffers' arguments and all the counter-arguments, has just boggled my mind. As most of us understand, SOMETHING happened in the Pons/Fleischman labs, and this "something" has been investigated, usually under conditions of relative penury, and found to be plausible. A new idea called "common sense" dictates that if something is plausible - possible under certain conditions - it ought to be investigated. Such is the nature of true scientists; they are (another new word) "curious". Now let's flash over to the Kyoto fiasco - and I don't see people like Randi commenting on this - and take a look at what's been spent and what's potentially going to be spent. On what? On hot air. On actions based on so-called scientific studies that "prove" that we nasty humans are devastating the earth. Randi!!!!! Where are you???!!!!!! All we have gotten so far is some very wealthy quasi-government organizations and NGOs... And let's not forget about the UN porkers snuffling around the trough. With the amount of money that's been generously poured into Kyoto, LENR could have easily have been a working proposition at this time. It's amazing what a reasonable amount of research money in the right places can do for potentially solving the world's energy and pollution problems. As you can see, I'm tired of all the nonsense - again we have people discussing ad nauseam about how many angels can dance on the head of that damned pin. All the scoffers; why don't you go and stand by the trough and scoff there. Perhaps you'll be able to divert some much-needed funding in the right direction. P. At 05:47 PM 5/30/2006 -0700, you wrote: >>This sorta PISSES ME OFF. Sorry. > >No apologies required. It would be upsetting to all of us. > > >>As I recall, Sir Martin *implied* that he knew what was going on. > >Yeah, well, somebody I talked to, can't remember off the top of my head, >gave me a whole sorry detailed run down on this whole matter. Sir Martin's >not known for being very direct and forthcoming, especially about possibly >embarrassing things that got overlooked. > > > But, if he doesn't . . . someone surely does. > >Yes, abserlutely. The folks at JM do. Last I heard, it's their trade >secret and they don't feel like being philanthropic. > >>These people better hope I never hit the lottery. BTW, the operative >>word here is 'hit'. > >Yikes. I didn't know that "Blanton" was an Italian name. > > >s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 09:38:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VGc91P027925; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:38:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VGc61Z027860; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:38:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:38:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c684cc$d9982720$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: More on 'Painless' NRG Sophistry Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:11:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The father of rocketry, Robert Goddard was issued his two most important patents in 1914, The first, Patent No. 1,102,653, issued described a multi-stage rocket. The second, 1,103,503, described a rocket fueled with gasoline and liquid nitrous oxide. The two patents would go on to become important milestones in the history of rocketry. Why nitrous oxide, you ask? That was almost 100 years ago, and yet we have barely scratched the surface of what could be a partial solution to the Arab Oil dilemma using N2O decomposition in addition to other non-fossil fuels. This gas has many special properties, especially in the context of water-based electrolyzed fuels, and especially since, unlike hydrogen, it can be an easily storable product of wind or solar energy. The irony is not lost - that a major pollutant, of sorts, N2O could become an integral part of the best ecological solution. I called it a "sort of" pollutant because it is generally a nontoxic product of our own human metabolism, for one thing - and only becomes problematic if allowed to acidify - as nitric acid is very toxic. BUT, for that unwanted outcome, acidification, there are several solutions which are far more acceptable than CO2. Of course, a closed cycle ICE using N2O plus (??) is the ultimate solution. Here is a modern version of this rocketry idea, which is seeing a rebirth. http://www.bergmans.com/propulsion/Injector%20Testing.html The decomposition of nitrous oxide results in formation of nitrogen and oxygen according to the following reaction equation: 2N2O —> 2N2 + O2 + Heat The overlooked factor is that in high compression situations, the oxygen atom produced in the above reaction is instantaneously available for 'reuse' even before it has become an oxygen molecule, which is part of the big advantage of using this species in ongoing combustion - and which is generally ignored in the thermodynamic balance, even by experts, as it so hard to quantify. The free oxygen ion is incredibly energetic in its own right, however. Especially ignored (this may be the first time it has been suggested in print) is application of N2O decomposition in the context of a possible 'common manifold' mix - or concoction of hydroxy gases, including so-called 'Brown's gas'. However, the whole scheme of using it ultimately demands that an advanced way be found to produce N2O from air or 'in situ' (in a closed cycle ICE) using zeolites or equivalent catalysts. That should be doable hypothetically - almost any chemist will tell you that much - but there has been no real incentive to investigate doing this. As a commercial venture, at least, N2O is a non-starter... as "painless dentistry" is the biggest user. Zeolites have been called "miracle catalysts", and if one is available to turn pressurized N2 and O2 into nitrous "on the fly" - perhaps in the presence of an alpha emitter, then this niche will become a hot-ticket area of science. My motivation here is to get this information into the public domain, ASAP, for that exact reason. There are zeolites which have an alpha emitter in the mix. At standard conditions (no further combustion) this exothermic N2O decomposition reaction generates ~82kJ of heat per mole of nitrous oxide used. For comparison, hydrogen + oxygen gives a heat of combustion of 286kJ per mole of water produced (it is higher if computed based solely on the H2). The synergy would derive if N2O + HO-OH + H3O produces substantially more energy in a converted ICE - then the energy which would be there without the N2O decomposition. And in keeping with the theme of paranormality - yes, the extra energy could be coming from ZPE in that by using the Casimir pressure at Angstrom dimensions, at the molecular-formative level, to form N2O from N2 and O2 gases - and/or using ZPE (Casimir pressure) to catalyze the formation of hydronium and peroxides in the Helmholtz-type cell - one has captured ZPE, in effect. This begs the larger question: is some catalysis evidence of ZPE (Casimir) pressure? The mainstream dogma is that catalysis NEVER alters the energy balance, only the "rate of reaction." Perhaps that is true in all cases, but that does not mean that we should stop looking for the exception OR that in a hybrid situation, we may not be able to use catalysis to get the Carnot efficiency near the maximum. Heat input is required to initiate the N2O decomposition reaction. In order to attain the required reaction rates, the gas must normally be heated to above 1000°C. However, many catalysts lower the activation energy barrier, and thus the decomposition can occur at lower temperatures (>200°C). Given that catalysis is often reversible, this is indicative of forming the stuff, as well. In the case of thermal decomposition with no catalyst, the activation energy barrier for nitrous oxide is about 250kJ/mole - which is very high but recoverable - and thus we explain the normal stability of the compound, compared to peroxides - and also the "arguable" ZPE connection. Here we have contradictory PTV properties: a compound which is relatively easy to form from air with catalysis, relatively stable against decomposition without catalysis, relatively energetic following decomposition, and reusable. Sounds like, hypothetically speaking, a most interesting candidate to employ - to attempt to harness ZPE pressure to me... ( in the sense of OU catalysis, which of course it should be admitted has never been seen before). The interesting point of this for future investigation is that peroxides, when oxidized with some N2O and some hydronium (Brown's gas) may decompose with as much as half the net energy per mole as is found in normal gasoline combustion - offering the prospect of a sealed and closed-cycle ICE, together with a catalytic chemical reactor (to produce N2O from N2 and O2 and an large ultra-efficient electrolysis (Helmholtz layer cell to produce the common manifold gas.) This might require a very large engine, the 1000 cubic inch Prius - since there will be parasitic losses to form N2O and Brown's gas, but then again - who cares if you aren't paying for fossil fuel? Needless to say, the most likely variation of this theme involves an catalyst containing and alpha emitter, and as is often the case when this contentious issue comes up - let me reiterate the fact that if you live in a brick house (in many parts of the USA), then you and your family are surrounded by kilogram levels of alpha emitters 24/7 - so it is NOT that big of a problem to deal with - as a practical matter. But before getting that speculative - let's see if any enterprising "science fair" participant can produce N2O - from air and "on the fly" using only zeolites or other catalysts and pressure. Actually, in comparison with some of the speculation seen here of late, this one has a "fair" probability of playing out.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:01:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VH1I98013206; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:01:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VH1FG5013162; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:01:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:01:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060531125548.00ba6e70@localhost> X-Sender: mica%pop.theworld.com@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:58:53 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on pcls1.std.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1501/Wed May 31 06:23:26 2006 on pcls1.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:18 AM 5/31/2006 -0400, Walter Faxon wrote: >And here in the West at least, the experts -- or those claiming to quote >them -- say cold >fusion is bunk. First, this is not true. After ICCF10, at which we at JET Energy and Dr. Dash each conducted open demonstrations at MIT, there was a second DOE meeting on cold fusion. At that meeting, to which only a small fraction of the CF community presented their results (and those that actually had a history of giving open demonstrations were excluded) 18 anonymous DOE reviewers "split approximately evenly" on whether or not there is excess power observed in the cold fusion phenomena. This, and further, analysis was covered in the previous edition of the COLD FUSION TIMES in detail, and some further information is available at the COLD FUSION TIMES website http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html As a result, it would have been more honest to have said, "half of the experts now feel cold fusion is real". Second, despite Walter Faxon's false statement about purported fraud, as for fraudulent data in the cold fusion story, the only fraud was made by a subgroup of the pathologic skeptics who were found to have altered curves in 1989. This was confirmed by an internal investigation at MIT undertaken by the late Dr. Philip Morrison. That story has been fully reported in Science and Engineering of Hydrided Metals Series, Volume 2 - "Calorimetric ComplicationsThe Examination of the Phase-II Experiment and Other Select Calorimetric Issues", Ed. M. Swartz, JET Technology Press, Wellesley Hills, MA, ISBN 1-890550-02-7 (1999) and partially reported in Swartz, M, "Some Lessons from Optical Examination of the PFC Phase-II Calormetric Curves", Vol. 2, "Proceedings: Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", 19-1, op. cit. (1993). The late Dr. Mallove also published information on this http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:10:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VHA4Vl019730; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:10:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VGkoXY002703; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:46:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:46:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531124106.03de4ad0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:46:33 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531103809.03f8ab60@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531103809.03f8ab60@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >Common sense and the solid understanding of basic physics and >chemistry is not sufficient for many papers. Should be: IS SUFFICIENT. !!@#^%& Some papers, but not others. Not theory papers, for example. Not the papers about particle-beam loading or advanced electrochemistry. An amateur will probably not understand this paper, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ZhangWSthemaximum.pdf Abstract: "Based on the Volmer-Heyrovsky-Tafel mechanism, Frumkin adsorption and thermodynamic data of hydrogen (deuterium) absorption in Pd, effects of surface parameters on the hydrogen (deuterium) loading ratio into Pd in the hydrogen (deuterium) evolution reaction are discussed. There is a change of mechanism from the Volmer-Tafel route to the Volmer-Heyrovsky route when the current density rises, and there exists the maximum loading ratio at a certain current density when the symmetry factor of the Heyrovsky step is less than that of the Volmer reaction. The theoretical results fit the experimental data presented before very well; other factors that affect the loading ratio are discussed as well." I could probably translate that from Japanese, but I do not understand what it means in any detail. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:39:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VHdI5P007591; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:39:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VHdHqk007579; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:39:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006501c684d9$21b641c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003c01c684cc$d9982720$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: 'Painless' NRG for a Rational World Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:39:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a "perfect world"... well, let's say a "rational world" which wants to give up a reliance on fossil fuels, and the eco-damage of such, yet still desires to have affordable personal automobile transportation (perhaps that goal is irrational in itself )... and assuming that LENR cannot become an affordable choice, due to scale-up problems, inevitable electrode damage, too many Randi-bots, the high cost for palladium, or whatever. All of the grid electricity for this rational world is generated by some combination of wind, solar, nuclear and hydro - no carbon. This mix puts you in the predicament of having lots of under-utilized night-time capacity, especially if we encourage "rational" small scale nuclear (subcritical, natural-uranium-fueled) which is a matter of making this goal a national priority, as the technology is there. The solution to that excess night-time capacity is that: in addition to many vehicles being battery powered plug-ins - and getting their charge at night (with or without the 'bettery') - and this being the higher-priced option (batteries will always be comparatively expensive) then there is still a cheaper option... ...especially for colder climates in the northern US and Canada... which is this: At night you have a home heat-pump, which in addition to heating the house, also produces liquid N2O at the same time. IOW the energy used to make the N2O heats the house - cogeneration. One of them is effectively free- either the home heat or the transportation fuel. The low compression engine and catalytic converter assures that little NOx is released. This N2O is a low density fuel, so you need to produce a lot of it, maybe 20 gallons for a 100 mile commute - but as you are heating your house with the rejected-heat, which is used to make it, then the "fuel" can be essentially free. BTW it is low energy density, sure, but still much higher than compressed air or liquid air, as it does have inherent chemical energy in addition to the energy of expansion. The big IF... is this: if N2O can be made reliably in a home-sized reactor via the pressurized catalysis of air. You need a 2-1 ratio of gases instead of the natural 4-1 ratio- but air can be enriched magnetically due to the magnetic properties of the O2 component. No good reason why this wouldn't work... except ... for the assumption of a "rational" world, and the needed billions for R&D, now wasting away like oil-soaked sand in the middle East... ...what was that about a "rational world"? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:41:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VGxhd7011828; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:59:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VGxexp011774; Wed, 31 May 2006 09:59:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:59:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:09:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Walter writes: >We assume the impartiality of the experts. They don't lie; they're >scientists! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get >the same training and come to the same conclusions. That's what makes >science different from theology. We assume the impartiality of the priests. They don't lie; they're priests! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get the same religious training and come to the same conclusions. That's what makes theology different from science. Walter also writes: >I do have a little hope for one such demonstration sparked by this thread; >see the new thread, >http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13665.html and >particularly Michael Foster's post. Perhaps you should read the archives of this list. Better still, try the experiment yourself, it's trivially easy to do, many of us have done it. Then you can win the million dollars. Or not. Either way, now that we've turned science over to the priests and the magicians I don't hold much hope for advance. The Amazing K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:52:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VHqTPh017009; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:52:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VHqS1O016990; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:52:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:52:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531135019.03f963d0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:52:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Either way, now that we've turned science over to the priests and >the magicians I don't hold much hope for advance. Bravo! Well said! LOL! >The Amazing K. Hahahaahaahahahhhh - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 10:54:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VHrjNm017825; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:53:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VHrgao017795; Wed, 31 May 2006 10:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:53:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:52:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Walter writes: >> We assume the impartiality of the experts. They don't lie; they're >> scientists! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get >> the same training and come to the same conclusions. That's what makes >> science different from theology. > > We assume the impartiality of the priests. They don't lie; they're > priests! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get > the same religious training and come to the same conclusions. That's what > makes > theology different from science. > > Walter also writes: >> I do have a little hope for one such demonstration sparked by this thread; >> see the new thread, >> http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13665.html and >> particularly Michael Foster's post. > > Perhaps you should read the archives of this list. Better still, try the > experiment yourself, it's trivially easy to do, many of us have done it. > Then you can win the million dollars. Or not. > > Either way, now that we've turned science over to the priests and the > magicians > I don't hold much hope for advance. > > The Amazing K. > If Galileo were alive today he would scoff at your troubles. Galileo had to face the priests of HIS religion to defend his science. Unlike Galileo, priests from your religion are not questioning your faith. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 11:21:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VIKSE4003346; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VIJKcL002795; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:19:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:19:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531141336.03de4ad0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:18:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More on 'Painless' NRG Sophistry In-Reply-To: <003c01c684cc$d9982720$6401a8c0@NuDell> References: <003c01c684cc$d9982720$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >The father of rocketry, Robert Goddard was issued his two most >important patents in 1914, The first, Patent No. 1,102,653, issued >described a multi-stage rocket. The second, 1,103,503, described a >rocket fueled with gasoline and liquid nitrous oxide. Note that some modern rockets use nitrous oxide in rubber, rather than the liquid form. The rubber (HTBT) is the fuel and the nitrous oxide is the oxidizer. Researchers at Hokkaido University are also developing small rockets with this. It is safer than other rocket fuels because it cannot explode, it is stable, and it is less toxic than most rocket fuels (other than liquid hydrogen and oxygen). - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 11:40:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VIe770015222; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VIe4A0015131; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060531110300.0293d370@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:30:46 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060531073559.01dd7ac8@pop> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060529134007.02ab8090@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C851ABAF1AB1B5-14E0-72A4@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530140818.02970ee0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <8C8525F88E63739-14E0-9C2F@mblkn-m19.sysops.aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060530173954.02b84a60@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060531073559.01dd7ac8@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >As you can see, I'm tired of all the nonsense - again we have people >discussing ad nauseam about how many angels can dance on the head of that >damned pin. > >All the scoffers; why don't you go and stand by the trough and scoff >there. Perhaps you'll be able to divert some much-needed funding in the >right direction. "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence." - Albert Einstein "The world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why a new idea will not work and should not be tried, but the people who produce progress are a breed apart. They have the imagination, the courage, and the persistence to find solutions." -- General Bernard Schriever From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 11:52:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VIodwS022324; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:51:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VIeDhU015286; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060531110540.02a04660@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:30:29 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Hot fusion little-known secret In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531094157.03cf8878@mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530204445.02bfa9e0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060531094157.03cf8878@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-dyRDB.A.MsD.CMefEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>I guess that's a nice way to say, "After 55 years and 28 Tokamaks have >>failed to make excess energy" > >Actually, they have all produced excess energy Actually, Jed, According to three of my sources in the hot fusion field, (the spokesman for PPPL, a plasma physicist at General Atomics, and someone working in the public relations office of EFDA-JET) none, repeat, none have produced excess energy. Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 12:16:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VJGCvC008366; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:16:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VJGA5P008341; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:16:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:16:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531145907.03d38e20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:15:55 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060531110540.02a04660@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060530204445.02bfa9e0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060531094157.03cf8878@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20060531110540.02a04660@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >According to three of my sources in the hot fusion field, (the >spokesman for PPPL, a plasma physicist at General Atomics, and >someone working in the public relations office of EFDA-JET) none, >repeat, none have produced excess energy. > >Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET I suppose it depends upon how you define excess energy. In all cases the reactor is hotter than it would be if there were no reaction going on inside it. Q=0.67 indicates that the heat from the nuclear reaction is 67% of the input power. Evidently they are defining excess as "nuclear power output exceeding total input electric power." By that standard, a cold fusion cell producing 30% of input power has a Q=0.3 and no excess, but we still call it "excess heat." Few cold fusion cells have had a Q>1.0. It would be easy to increase the Q by reducing input power, using conventional electrochemical techniques such as moving the anode and cathode closer together. People have not done that because there is no point. A Q-value is defined as, "The amount of energy released in a nuclear reaction," by the way. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 12:32:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VJUpxV019710; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:32:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VJSqCV017420; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:28:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: 'Painless' NRG for a Rational World Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:28:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <006501c684d9$21b641c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k4VJSZVL017225 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sounds like a viable grass roots program to me. I am interested in learning more about the ins and outs of N2O production and magnetic enrichment. Anything you can point me to online? I like your thinking on capitalizing on the wasted opportunity at night. I wonder if this nighttime production could be enough to take a typical home off-grid? If all you are doing is on-site decentralized power generation, energy density becomes a non-issue with regard to storage and transportation. Might not be a bad open source collaboration project for those on this list that are interested in possibly taking themselves off the grid, or at least reducing their dependence on it. Thoughts? -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:39 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: 'Painless' NRG for a Rational World In a "perfect world"... well, let's say a "rational world" which wants to give up a reliance on fossil fuels, and the eco-damage of such, yet still desires to have affordable personal automobile transportation (perhaps that goal is irrational in itself )... and assuming that LENR cannot become an affordable choice, due to scale-up problems, inevitable electrode damage, too many Randi-bots, the high cost for palladium, or whatever. All of the grid electricity for this rational world is generated by some combination of wind, solar, nuclear and hydro - no carbon. This mix puts you in the predicament of having lots of under-utilized night-time capacity, especially if we encourage "rational" small scale nuclear (subcritical, natural-uranium-fueled) which is a matter of making this goal a national priority, as the technology is there. The solution to that excess night-time capacity is that: in addition to many vehicles being battery powered plug-ins - and getting their charge at night (with or without the 'bettery') - and this being the higher-priced option (batteries will always be comparatively expensive) then there is still a cheaper option... ...especially for colder climates in the northern US and Canada... which is this: At night you have a home heat-pump, which in addition to heating the house, also produces liquid N2O at the same time. IOW the energy used to make the N2O heats the house - cogeneration. One of them is effectively free- either the home heat or the transportation fuel. The low compression engine and catalytic converter assures that little NOx is released. This N2O is a low density fuel, so you need to produce a lot of it, maybe 20 gallons for a 100 mile commute - but as you are heating your house with the rejected-heat, which is used to make it, then the "fuel" can be essentially free. BTW it is low energy density, sure, but still much higher than compressed air or liquid air, as it does have inherent chemical energy in addition to the energy of expansion. The big IF... is this: if N2O can be made reliably in a home-sized reactor via the pressurized catalysis of air. You need a 2-1 ratio of gases instead of the natural 4-1 ratio- but air can be enriched magnetically due to the magnetic properties of the O2 component. No good reason why this wouldn't work... except ... for the assumption of a "rational" world, and the needed billions for R&D, now wasting away like oil-soaked sand in the middle East... ...what was that about a "rational world"? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 13:41:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VKdrp6014631; Wed, 31 May 2006 13:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VJnnAQ000329; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:48:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531145907.03d38e20@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Steven Krivit wrote: > >> According to three of my sources in the hot fusion field, (the >> spokesman for PPPL, a plasma physicist at General Atomics, and >> someone working in the public relations office of EFDA-JET) none, >> repeat, none have produced excess energy. >> >> Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET > > I suppose it depends upon how you define excess energy. In all cases > the reactor is hotter than it would be if there were no reaction > going on inside it. Q=0.67 indicates that the heat from the nuclear > reaction is 67% of the input power. Evidently they are defining > excess as "nuclear power output exceeding total input electric > power." By that standard, a cold fusion cell producing 30% of input > power has a Q=0.3 and no excess, but we still call it "excess heat." > Few cold fusion cells have had a Q>1.0. It was my perception ( as a non-expert) that excess heat meant Q>1.0. I also think this is what your average person would regard as "excess heat". This is suppose to be the "promise" of CF is it not? > It would be easy to increase > the Q by reducing input power, using conventional electrochemical > techniques such as moving the anode and cathode closer together. > People have not done that because there is no point. NO POINT???!!!! Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 13:41:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VKdrp8014631; Wed, 31 May 2006 13:41:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VJZl1A023330; Wed, 31 May 2006 12:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <447DEFE3.6060703@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:34:59 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ZPE motor patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; The motor that couples to the ZPE patent has been interesting reading. I sent the URL to Hal Puthoff, whose writings are sited in the literature section. I'm wondering how much of these mechanisms are speculation (theoretical physics) and how much of it has been demonstrated. The motor works by inducing vibrations in the acoustic frequencies. The two acoustic drivers produce waves which are 180 degreed out of phase. The author believes that when the phonons interact with the ZPE, they will become solitons which will have some mass. These soliitons moving in one direction; I failed to notice how this unidirectional motion is achieved, will either produce an inertial drive, or rotation. The patent also mentions a ZPE plenum in which this occurs. I also copied this line from the patent, each different iteration of phonon composition should be documented to avoid repetition. I've heard of solitons, but have never been able to figure out their nature. I also have no idea why a sonic vibration would acquire mass, from the ZPE I suppose. I also have no idea what a ZPE plenum is, it is the thin layer in between the two layers of silicon. The frequency of 10 to the 33 power is mentioned. Ditto for the iteration of phonon composition. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 17:25:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k510KFI2029053; Wed, 31 May 2006 17:25:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k5105JbQ016335; Wed, 31 May 2006 17:05:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:05:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:04:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k5104xpR016083 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: > If Galileo were alive today he would scoff at your troubles. > Galileo had to face the priests of HIS religion to defend his science. > Unlike Galileo, priests from your religion are not questioning your > faith. This is not to say that Galileo always behaved like a model scientist. For the lastest analysis of Galileo vs Church members may want to watch to this lecture given in January 2005 at the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Ontario Canada. David C. Lindberg, Professor Emeritus, University of Wisconsin ³The Florentine Heretic? Galileo, the Church, and the Cosmos² http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/activities/community/generalpublic/pasteven ts2.php Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 17:25:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k510KFI4029053; Wed, 31 May 2006 17:25:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k510Am7r021073; Wed, 31 May 2006 17:10:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:10:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:10:58 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon@newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L@eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 20:11:05 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Wed, 31 May 2006 20:11:06 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <1eRdt.A.FJF.FCjfEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Walter writes: > >We assume the impartiality of the experts. They don't lie; they're > >scientists! We believe them because theoretically at least we could > >get the same training and come to the same conclusions. That's what > >makes science different from theology. > > We assume the impartiality of the priests. They don't lie; they're > priests! We believe them because theoretically at least we could get > the same religious training and come to the same conclusions. That's > what makes theology different from science. If I get a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D. in physics and am asked a question about any scientific subject I don't expect I would feel the need to give two different answers. If I get a D.D. degree in from a Roman Catholic divinity school and also train at an Islamic school and am asked about, say, the true road to salvation, I probably would. And that example is using two religions that to some extent tolerate each other. Ask a Muslim if a Bahai can get into heaven. There is no such conflict in science. > > Walter also writes: > >I do have a little hope for one such demonstration sparked by this > >thread; see the new thread, > >http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg13665.html and > >particularly Michael Foster's post. > > Perhaps you should read the archives of this list. Better still, try the > experiment yourself, it's trivially easy to do, many of us have done it. > Then you can win the million dollars. Or not. I hope Michael Foster acts. If he doesn't you're certainly free to do so. I'll also put up a broader request for a vortexian (or vortexians) to apply to accept the Challenge using this demonstration. And if Randi disallows the turning of carbon (and/or air) into iron -- implicitly accepting alchemy -- I will make it my goal to ensure that everyone who has internet access knows about it. > > Either way, now that we've turned science over to the priests and the > magicians I don't hold much hope for advance. > > The Amazing K. I don't propose turning science over to magicians, much less priests. Randi has stated repeatedly that he would rely on experts drawn from the American Physical Society. If he attends any demonstration he would likely be in the background. If I were him I'd want to be there too, to see if trickery was being used to win my million bucks. I presume you accept that Randi at least knows something about trickery. Thanks for your input. -Walter From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 17:58:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4VIodwU022324; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:52:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k4VIeCC3015282; Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060531111432.028edaa8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:29:29 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >You're asking me what would convince me personally that cold fusion is real. Walter, No sir. I'm not, nor do I have any interest to do so. And for that reason, I read your message no further past this point. If there is a specific question you wish to ask me, please feel free to ask, but I don't have time to follow all of this dialogue. What would convince one person versus another to accept the reality of the cold fusion effect is a personal matter. It differs as much as one human differs from another. Lots of people spend time trying to convince others of various viewpoints. I know of no one who was ever convinced of anything who didn't come to a point of awareness and understanding on their own volition, based on their own curiosity and interest. The best one can do, in my opinion, is to lead a person to information, help them understand if they should show such interest, and leave it up to them. If you'd like, I'll send you a comp of my book. Although if you've read Beaudette's book, it's far more technical than mine. Best regards, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:27:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511QgL5016640; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:26:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511Qeuo016603; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:26:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:25:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531145907.03d38e20@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Steven Krivit wrote: > >> According to three of my sources in the hot fusion field, (the >> spokesman for PPPL, a plasma physicist at General Atomics, and >> someone working in the public relations office of EFDA-JET) none, >> repeat, none have produced excess energy. >> >> Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET > > I suppose it depends upon how you define excess energy. In all cases > the reactor is hotter than it would be if there were no reaction > going on inside it. Q=0.67 indicates that the heat from the nuclear > reaction is 67% of the input power. Evidently they are defining > excess as "nuclear power output exceeding total input electric > power." By that standard, a cold fusion cell producing 30% of input > power has a Q=0.3 and no excess, but we still call it "excess heat." > Few cold fusion cells have had a Q>1.0. It was my perception ( as a non-expert) that excess heat meant Q>1.0. I also think this is what your average person would regard as "excess heat". This is suppose to be the "promise" of CF is it not? > It would be easy to increase > the Q by reducing input power, using conventional electrochemical > techniques such as moving the anode and cathode closer together. > People have not done that because there is no point. NO POINT???!!!! Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:31:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511Nwsx014520; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:23:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511NshR014454; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:23:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:23:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: 'Painless' NRG for a Rational World Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:30:58 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006501c684d9$21b641c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.52.19] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 31 May 2006 22:30:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k511NdnQ014323 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Steck's message of Wed, 31 May 2006 14:28:09 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Sounds like a viable grass roots program to me. I am interested in learning more about the ins and outs of N2O production and magnetic enrichment. Anything you can point me to online? [snip] I think Fred has a device that enriches O2 based upon some form of filtration. Perhaps he can enlighten us as to the details of its operation and perhaps a patent number? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 18:34:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511UZgK020358; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:33:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511AGNd004440; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:10:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060531193349.00ba7048@localhost> X-Sender: mica%pop.theworld.com@127.0.0.1 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 21:07:41 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on pcls4.std.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88/1504/Wed May 31 15:59:14 2006 on pcls4.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:15 PM 5/31/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Steven Krivit wrote: > >>According to three of my sources in the hot fusion field, (the spokesman >>for PPPL, a plasma physicist at General Atomics, and someone working in >>the public relations office of EFDA-JET) none, repeat, none have produced >>excess energy. >> >>Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET > >I suppose it depends upon how you define excess energy. In all cases the >reactor is hotter than it would be if there were no reaction going on >inside it. Q=0.67 indicates that the heat from the nuclear reaction is 67% >of the input power. Evidently they are defining excess as "nuclear power >output exceeding total input electric power." By that standard, a cold >fusion cell producing 30% of input power has a Q=0.3 and no excess, but we >still call it "excess heat." Few cold fusion cells have had a Q>1.0. It >would be easy to increase the Q by reducing input power, using >conventional electrochemical techniques such as moving the anode and >cathode closer together. People have not done that because there is no point. > >A Q-value is defined as, "The amount of energy released in a nuclear >reaction," by the way. > >- Jed This is incorrect on several levels. First, assuming Q is the ratio of heat released to the input energy, if there is less than 100% heat for input energy as (V*I)*t (or power * time), then there is NO (zero, zed, nada) excess heat. Our open MIT demonstration at ICCF10 had Q = ~2.7 (or an output of about 270% of the input energy), and this was shown during the week of the open demonstration to be dependent upon the precise system operation within the optimal operating point manifold. Second, changing electrode dimensions will not necessarily change Q. The way to change Q is by the methods of cold fusion engineering, several of which we have discussed in several papers including Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Proceedings of ICCF-10, eds. Peter L. Hagelstein, Scott, R. Chubb, World Scientific Publishing, NJ, ISBN 981-256-564-6, Pages 29-44 (2006) and Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003) , and Swartz. M., "The Impact of Heavy Water (D2O) on Nickel-Light Water Cold Fusion Systems", Proceedings of the 9th International Conference on Cold Fusion (Condensed Matter Nuclear Science), Beijing, China, Xing Z. Li, pages 335-342. May (2002), and Swartz. M., "Control of Low Energy Nuclear Systems through Loading and Optimal Operating Points", ANS/ 2000 International Winter Meeting, Nov. 12-17, 2000, Washington, D.C. (2000), and Swartz. M.., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998), and Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997), and Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994), and Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992), and of course the recent presentation, and the recent papers including Swartz, M., G. Verner, "Dual Ohmic Controls Improve Understanding of "Heat after Death" Transactions, American Nuclear Society, vol. 93, ISSN 93 1-988, 891-892 (2005). Hope that clarifies and helps, because the future of successful cold fusion systems will be controlled by engineering. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:12:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k512BsiT018486; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:11:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k512Bof7018433; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:11:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:11:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:10:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531165113.03d38e20@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6VYSlD.A.yfE.kzkfEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> It was my perception ( as a non-expert) that excess heat meant Q>1.0. >> I also think this is what your average person would regard as "excess >> heat". This is suppose to be the "promise" of CF is it not? > > With some techniques such as gas loading, cold fusion produces an > infinite ratio: zero input, output only. In hot fusion this would be > called a "fully ignited reaction." You cannot get more promising than that. > > >>> It would be easy to increase >>> the Q by reducing input power, using conventional electrochemical >>> techniques such as moving the anode and cathode closer together. >>> People have not done that because there is no point. >> >> NO POINT???!!!! > > No point. As Martin Fleischmann says this is no better than stamp collecting. > > The purpose of the research is to discover how to control the > reaction and how to produce a large volume of nuclear active material > in the metal. Results from the U.S. Navy and the Spring8 National > Synchrotron lab prove conclusively that only a tiny fraction of the > material in most samples is activated. Once researchers learn how to > activate a larger fraction without blowing themselves to smithereens, > the input output ratio will take care of itself. > > Improving this ratio by changing electrochemical techniques is a > useless, dead-end stunt. It can only improve the ratio to a limited > extent, probably never enough to produce a 1:5 ratio, which is what > you need to make a self-sustaining motor. I think if such a 'demo' could be built it would attract more money than a hundred well designed experiments. > On the other hand, once you > learn to control the reaction you can easily make the ratio 1:10, or > 1:100 or probably 1:100,00 which is approximately the ratio Mizuno > and Oriani achieved with gas-phase proton conductors. > > I doubt that liquid electrochemistry will ever lead to a useful form > of cold fusion in any case. > > Improving the ratio with electrochemical techniques probably does > little to improve calorimetry, and it complicates the experiment and > interferes with other aspects of it. > > - Jed It probably would not advance the science very much, but I think such a device would do more to pique the interest of engineers and investors. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:14:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k512AU0f017018; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:13:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k5120cKV009989; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:00:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:00:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=W94n0zJEDJ+YS+F1fqfrJGnLDRvBwTFHTSv4ElYV4C3X0kXC2lWrcPK3tUSkM4Fl; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <1567790.1149127224572.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:00:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ceaed37909556adfb8e19b11d5d23aafff76fb537681c8db9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz writes: >>>Greatest Q= 0.67 was at JET > This is incorrect on several levels. > > First, assuming Q is the ratio of heat released to the input energy, if >there is less than 100% heat >for input energy as (V*I)*t (or power * time), then there is NO (zero, zed, >nada) excess heat. Are you saying the JET tokamak reactor with a Q=0.67 is endothermic? It swallows up heat? How much, for how long? I have heard of cold fusion cells that were measurably endothermic for a while, but as far as I know all plasma fusion reactions are exothermic. If the JET reactor absorbs energy, the hot fusion program is in worse shape than I thought. > Second, changing electrode dimensions will not necessarily change >Q. I did not say it necessarily does. It sometimes does, but the change is unimportant. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:24:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511vuwg007996; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:57:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511vrQ4007936; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AyDITBnSlQYAB5QigK80BURBTQ9es9jE/cQdoMwIDFB42GCVHJ/D4ZepEwi7T9kFDGxarXVt9WQLk/PGp3GmYcm3ggUIPrItzt+mNIJrCT/k1na3TKcHOsgElEhDzFUqVdH9PCw6rplhZBXVVSJYlMouRvYehSxO+tg6v4pkAZ4= ; Message-ID: <20060601015746.17506.qmail@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:57:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: 'Painless' NRG for a Rational World To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > John Steck: Sounds like a viable grass roots program to me. I am interested in learning more about the ins and outs of N2O production and magnetic enrichment. Anything you can point me to online? > R.S. I think Fred has a device that enriches O2 based upon some form of filtration. Fred is, to put it mildly, not yet sold on the potential of N2O as a fuel. He gets a laugh out of it, so to speak... but he is operating under the assumption that the 150 year old method of production using Ammonium Nitrate is the only way to get it: NH4NO3 + Heat ------> N2O + 2 H2O Very wasteful ... and I agree that the idea will not work unless a more direct catalytic method of production, using pressurized O2 and N2 from air can be found, allowing safe home production using a heat pump. That was pretty much the premise of the whole idea, and it was based on a recent conversation with a renowned radiochemist, who would probably not want his name mentioned in that regard, but he thinks that it is doable with a natural ionization source - like thorium oxide - and a zeolite catalyst. In the old graphite air cooled reactor at Oak Ridge - they got tons of N2O out the smokestack. One of many reasons that reactor was too toxic and eventually shut down (one of many reasons). This is not the kind of thing which will be found in a mainstream textbook. It is the "enabling technology" which is waiting to happen.... but "imagine the possibilities"... isn't that what we do on vortex? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:26:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511oBid001909; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:52:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511cFDj025633; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:38:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531165113.03d38e20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:01:39 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060531145907.03d38e20@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >It was my perception ( as a non-expert) that excess heat meant Q>1.0. >I also think this is what your average person would regard as "excess >heat". This is suppose to be the "promise" of CF is it not? With some techniques such as gas loading, cold fusion produces an infinite ratio: zero input, output only. In hot fusion this would be called a "fully ignited reaction." You cannot get more promising than that. > > It would be easy to increase > > the Q by reducing input power, using conventional electrochemical > > techniques such as moving the anode and cathode closer together. > > People have not done that because there is no point. > >NO POINT???!!!! No point. As Martin Fleischmann says this is no better than stamp collecting. The purpose of the research is to discover how to control the reaction and how to produce a large volume of nuclear active material in the metal. Results from the U.S. Navy and the Spring8 National Synchrotron lab prove conclusively that only a tiny fraction of the material in most samples is activated. Once researchers learn how to activate a larger fraction without blowing themselves to smithereens, the input output ratio will take care of itself. Improving this ratio by changing electrochemical techniques is a useless, dead-end stunt. It can only improve the ratio to a limited extent, probably never enough to produce a 1:5 ratio, which is what you need to make a self-sustaining motor. On the other hand, once you learn to control the reaction you can easily make the ratio 1:10, or 1:100 or probably 1:100,00 which is approximately the ratio Mizuno and Oriani achieved with gas-phase proton conductors. I doubt that liquid electrochemistry will ever lead to a useful form of cold fusion in any case. Improving the ratio with electrochemical techniques probably does little to improve calorimetry, and it complicates the experiment and interferes with other aspects of it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:28:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k511oBib001909; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:52:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k511fwmP029367; Wed, 31 May 2006 18:41:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:41:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <937538980.1149092546026.JavaMail.root@fepweb14> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 9:22:26 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion advocates should put up or shut up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From Jed: ... > Midway through our discussion, Randi suddenly changed the > terms of his challenge from merely ridiculous to utterly > impossible. Instead of demanding experimental proof that > cold fusion exists (which could hypothetically be given > if he understood anything about physics), he suddenly > demanded a practical commercial device instead: > > "Let's leave it here: the million-dollar prize of the > James Randi Educational Foundation is available for the > operation of a practical working version of the > 'cold fusion' claim." And > Randy makes the rules in his game: Dealer wins > and winner deals. There is no way you could beat > him because he will change the rules as soon as > he sees you may win. You saw how he did that to > me. Instead of talking about proof that cold > fusion exists, he suddenly demanded a "practical > working version." He raised the price of admission > by a factor of roughly 100,000. Instead of > demanding that the researchers spend ~$100,000 to > persuade him, he now demands the researchers > spend ~$10 billion. > > Randi is hopelessly muddled and ignorant. I think > there is chance he or any of his friends will even > bother to read the cold fusion literature. There is > not a snowball's chance in hell he will admit he > is wrong -- or even understand how or why he is > wrong! It is a waste of time dealing with such > people. The only reason I wrote to Randi was to draw > out the responses he e-mailed to me, so that I > could prove how intellectually dishonest and > ignorant he is. The next time someone mentions Randi > in a positive light, I invite you to e-mail him the > exchange of messages. Anyone with half a brain will > see that Randi is a fool and a blowhard. > > - Jed Jed, I have some thoughts here... It is quite possible that you may be able to best Randi at his own game. The point is not to "get" Randi. That's petty. The point would be to show a devastating example of how scientific investigations occasionally go very, VERY bad, particularly when those who claim they are following the rules, in fact, aren't. How? By publicly exposing the way Randi operates on preconceived conclusions that are not based on scientific investigative skills. The key point being: Public Exposure. From Randi's perspective, any public exposure that shows his flawed modus operandi in action is not likely to sit well with him. It seems quite likely to me that one of Randi's most vulnerable Achilles Heal is his desire to be both recognized and validated (with the level respect he believes he deserves) within the scientific community - and particularly for his "debunking" work. If you can publicly show through a collection of clear and concise report (expose) that Randy clearly doesn't comprehend the physics involved in CF claims, that he instead follows his own subjective modus operandi, AND that when it suits him he changes the terms of his million dollar challenge you can pretty much show the world (and more importantly, to Randi himself) that he doesn't deserve to be validated and/or recognized by the scientific community - and that is likely to stick in his craw. What's sad about this is that Randi really is an excellent magician, and he probably does know most of the dirty tricks of the trade when it comes to deceiving the public. He does good work in the area of exposing frauds. The irony in all of this is that Randi assumes that his extensive knowledge of how to deceive an audience automatically makes him an excellent debunker of controversial scientific claims. But Randi does not appear to be following the rules of scientific investigation. When "big fish" in little ponds get it in their heads to play with the bigger fish in the bigger pond they need to understand the consequences of playing by the harsher rules of the ocean. Bad things can happen when little fishies assume they can still play by the rules they crafted within their own little puddles: The Ponds of Mutual Self Admiration. Jed, I realize this might be too much work, and I would understand why you might not want to take on the assignment of exposing Randi's (pseudo) modus operandi. However, if you do, it might turn out to be a very revealing, something you might like to place in lenr-canr. Just my two cents. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:28:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k512SUqF030435; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:28:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k512S6pj030144; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:28:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:28:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=B2i53BKBXkUjKV6LRNcGXlohYUi1tEZKfQmz8xbsJtu5ObCul25BR5Tyog7wPvLq; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <1533008.1149128874358.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:27:54 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ceaed37909556adfbc541d8ce5abb3679a89960a50d180582350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >> Improving this ratio by changing electrochemical techniques is a >> useless, dead-end stunt. It can only improve the ratio to a limited >> extent, probably never enough to produce a 1:5 ratio, which is what >> you need to make a self-sustaining motor. > >I think if such a 'demo' could be built it would attract more money >than a hundred well designed experiments. I agree, but as I said, I do not think you could achieve sustained 1:5 ratio merely by changing the electrochemistry. You can easily achieve much higher ratios with a proton conductor when it works, but it seldom works and it cannot be controlled. >It probably would not advance the science very much, but I think such a >device would do more to pique the interest of engineers and investors. I doubt it. 60% excess heat is not much more impressive than 30% excess. The absolute power of the excess heat does not change; overhead is reduced slightly. Absolute power is usually less than a watt, which means it can only be detected with instruments. As long as it remains below 5 or 10 watts I doubt that any kind of demonstration can be performed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 31 19:48:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k512m1q6012566; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:48:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k512lvAA012500; Wed, 31 May 2006 19:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:47:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:47:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Hot fusion little-known secret In-reply-to: <1533008.1149128874358.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/68601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I doubt it. 60% excess heat is not much more impressive than 30% excess. The > absolute power of the excess heat does not change; overhead is reduced > slightly. Absolute power is usually less than a watt, which means it can only > be detected with instruments. As long as it remains below 5 or 10 watts I > doubt that any kind of demonstration can be performed. > > - Jed > I suspect that would be enough to power a few L.E.D s. Harry