From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 02:01:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7191MaD024973; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:01:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7191AOi024875; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:01:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:01:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running From: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk Reply-to: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Sender-IP-Address: 194.105.164.99 X-Mailer: Nameko 0.10.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:01:09 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Try gradually adding electrolyte to get the current up about > ten-fold or more. I think your larger plate area is a > benefit if > you can get more current through the liquid. I am surprised > conductivity didn't increase from the leaching - but > maybe it is > not a conductive colloid - maybe oil from the manufacturing > process of the plates ? Relevant quotes from Schiffer: *** Electrolyte ---snip--- Gojuice A typical and very suitable mixture is described in United States Patent 5,231,954 by Gene. B. Stowe under the production of a hydrogen/oxygen cell. For people without Internet I will briefly quote the relevant section; "...an electrolyte solution can be made by mixing small quantities of phosphoric acid ( food grade ), sodium perborate ( to supply extra oxygen), and acetanilide as a stabiliser, in deionised water or distilled water. The quantities of these chemicals may be varied between rather wide ranges, the object being to provide reasonable flow of current between the two electrodes. " He goes on ( in section 6, 65 onwards ), to explain a typical method of making this mixture. I would suggest that if you made the above, you used juvenile water for dilution, and that you leave out the stabiliser as it is expensive and not essential for our needs. The end mixture works extremely well and you will only have to add a couple of spoonful's of Gojuice to achieve 1 Amp of current flow at 12 Volts in you car or test cell. ---ends--- *** Cell Cleaning ---snip--- You may use vinegar or acetic acid that you use for cleaning the stainless steel and kill two birds with one stone. I personally have made my own mix that I call " Gojuice " as explained above. Acetic acid or vinegar is fine, but, please note that if you use vinegar, as the quantity of vinegar added to the cell is quite large, ( by volume ) you will have to be careful that the vinegar was made with the " right " water. This would be highly unlikely, so it should be used as a last resort. With acetic acid m ake sure that it is 90% acetic acid and if you obtain it from a photography chemical supplier, make sure that there is no stabiliser or indicator included in the mixture. It is because of the dubious nature of the water that is used for the vinegar and acetic products that I have taken the far more expensive path of using Gojuice. ---ends--- BIG NOTE - the above assumes that you are building an 'acid cell'... Rgds, Patrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 02:08:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7198Q6O028614; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:08:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7198Pwc028599; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:08:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:08:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Iokq5MrgFpB4Njz7AYqv6xLCn0CiNoA+KeAI/qIJhYxc0nd+4nzNxvOp1upWB3QH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "patrick" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 03:08:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e100a3824c997279ffe69e06d467c19d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.254 Resent-Message-ID: <1XQNIB.A.z-G.JoxzEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Patrick. >From what I can glean from Schauberger's "Burning Barrel" for converting "water to petrol", the dispersed Silver and Copper filings (about 0.5 volts apart in the Electromotive series) and "jet" parts along with Magnesium Ions, Nitrates/IonsSodium/Potassium Phosphates, Carbonic Acid from injected CO2 along with a potpourri of "other minerals", strong agitation, low temperatures due to the jet Venturi effects with ample storage time and utterance of various incantations it looks like a passive version of what Terry Blanton is doing with his high technology - energy efficient "Joe Cell Running" pictured in this link. :-) http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Patrick.
 
From what I can glean from Schauberger's "Burning Barrel" for
converting "water to petrol", the dispersed Silver and Copper
filings (about 0.5 volts apart in the Electromotive series) and "jet" parts
along with Magnesium Ions, Nitrates/IonsSodium/Potassium Phosphates,
Carbonic Acid from injected CO2 along with
a potpourri of "other minerals", strong agitation, low temperatures
due to the jet Venturi effects with ample storage time and utterance of
various incantations it looks like a passive version of what
Terry Blanton is doing with his high technology - energy efficient
"Joe Cell Running" pictured in this link.  :-)

http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 02:44:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k719hs9d011502; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:43:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k719hrXp011467; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 02:43:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FgHBIhSXM6ZxfNCWYqoORTr660Wjj/lMtq5+Ayd25BxeqoY45GZQby5dPbruAqNB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200682194337757 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "patrick" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 03:43:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402de30d22f9622c40d38dcdc353f94799350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.254 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I used a small quantity of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) plus 20 Mule Team Borax (Death Valley Days hosted/narrated/acted in on the radio by Ronald Reagan) Na2B4O7-10 H20. This jumped the current for our 12 wallplate cell from about 1.5 milliamperes up to about an Ampere at 12 volts. Adding the baking soda first, increased the current to 18 milliamperes then adding the Borax jumped it up to an amp. The Borate ion ( B4O7 = ) undergoes hydrolysis to Boric Acid H3BO3 and Sodium Hydroxide Ions: B4O7= + 7 H2O <---> 4 H3BO3 + 2 Na+ + 2 OH- Fred > > From: > To: > Date: 8/1/2006 3:10:34 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running > > > > Try gradually adding electrolyte to get the current up about > > ten-fold or more. I think your larger plate area is a > > benefit if > > you can get more current through the liquid. I am surprised > > conductivity didn't increase from the leaching - but > > maybe it is > > not a conductive colloid - maybe oil from the manufacturing > > process of the plates ? > > Relevant quotes from Schiffer: > > *** Electrolyte > ---snip--- > Gojuice > > A typical and very suitable mixture is described in United States Patent 5,231,954 by Gene. B. Stowe under the production of a hydrogen/oxygen cell. > > For people without Internet I will briefly quote the relevant section; > > "...an electrolyte solution can be made by mixing small quantities of phosphoric acid ( food grade ), sodium perborate ( to supply extra oxygen), and acetanilide as a stabiliser, in deionised water or distilled water. The quantities of these chemicals may be varied between rather wide ranges, the object being to provide reasonable flow of current between the two electrodes. " > > He goes on ( in section 6, 65 onwards ), to explain a typical method of making this mixture. I would suggest that if you made the above, you used juvenile water for dilution, and that you leave out the stabiliser as it is expensive and not essential for our needs. The end mixture works extremely well and you will only have to add a couple of spoonful's of Gojuice to achieve 1 Amp of current flow at 12 Volts in you car or test cell. > ---ends--- > > > *** Cell Cleaning > ---snip--- > You may use vinegar or acetic acid that you use for cleaning the stainless steel and kill two birds with one stone. I personally have made my own mix that I call " Gojuice " as explained above. Acetic acid or vinegar is fine, but, please note that if you use vinegar, as the quantity of vinegar added to the cell is quite large, ( by volume ) you will have to be careful that the vinegar was made with the " right " water. This would be highly unlikely, so it should be used as a last resort. With acetic acid m > ake sure that it is 90% acetic acid and if you obtain it from a photography chemical supplier, make sure that there is no stabiliser or indicator included in the mixture. It is because of the dubious nature of the water that is used for the vinegar and acetic products that I have taken the far more expensive path of using Gojuice. > ---ends--- > > > BIG NOTE - the above assumes that you are building an 'acid cell'... > > Rgds, > Patrick > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 04:41:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71BfSvN030869; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 04:41:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71BfP36030803; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 04:41:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 04:41:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BfTtSOm06pHku9xf1zGrZ+meR6SuRUMqeKEmzYbuMv0bdz4RH3MwDYYH0ERs5xa2+NkSgudGSwpHpVcxuGAWTRkR0o7cZEDW3aSYTfrWRuIUFQPO3mbYbfL1l2O/Q4iVxy2QJs+mIvvxZ9DIAogNwbFTt2QxwrC8BKdT1bukjSk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:41:23 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running In-Reply-To: <410-2200682194337757 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200682194337757 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > I used a small quantity of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) plus > 20 Mule Team Borax (Death Valley Days hosted/narrated/acted in > on the radio by Ronald Reagan) Na2B4O7-10 H20. > This jumped the current for our 12 wallplate cell from > about 1.5 milliamperes up to about an Ampere at 12 volts. I appreciate all the great advice. I am not sure exactly what it is that I am trying to do. :-) I thought it was purely the capacitive effect of the parallel plates which could turn the water into (engine) whine. Once the water is charged, then you put it into a hydrolyzer, with electrolyte, and compare the effect of charged vs uncharged water. BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly. But, as you know, SS still looks oily when clean. Much more scum appearing on the surface. Still lots of anode bubbles. 1.1 mA this morning. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 05:53:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71Cr1AA002721; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 05:53:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71Cqwa4002684; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 05:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 05:52:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=m6qYHte0kfVZAi/4nslkcP+oHNArauI86bCesIDYMyBcLIwB5z/qVOlnbk8VzEug1LTmEhgvncVITuZWtcNzNYw+1I9NWJTZIJhDRDv3n90IvN2n8ojw2tstEG0QIXnNOvFt+v8Z15IOKJO4dw3OnsZvbA8loB+ClHrRyJg062k= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:52:55 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <2iqdoC.A.sp.o60zEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic Misconceptions Status: O X-Status: According to this article: http://www.aias.us/Members/Johnson-Magnets.pdf HoJo believed that the north pole and south pole of permanent magnets have independent vortex field lines, ie the lines do not go from N to S but rotate within the magnetic. This makes a helluva lot more sense. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 07:31:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71EU5oA018530; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71EFC8F009689; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:15:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Misconceptions From: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk Reply-to: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Sender-IP-Address: 194.105.164.99 X-Mailer: Nameko 0.10.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:14:20 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Original message sent on the Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:52:55 -0400 by hohlraum gmail.com > According to this article: > > http://www.aias.us/Members/Johnson-Magnets.pdf > > HoJo believed that the north pole and south pole of > permanent magnets > have independent vortex field lines, ie the lines do not go > from N to > S but rotate within the magnetic. > > This makes a helluva lot more sense. > Hi Terry, My thoughts too. Go here [http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1228.0.html] to see a recent post I made about this. I own a copy of HJ's book, so if you've any specific queries, ask away :-) Cheers, Patrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 07:43:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71Eh1oW028952; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:43:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71EgwO8028913; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:42:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:42:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AvWBGb526sRCMDdseitfpRfvO5xcowhNIrjfhSTwzroxrAzFXEdYGF+5npYh58BdCclalua0YjnankXBTv74CxqTxcrJIYwZTUpy951xS5j8WihuzelH+GycE0cBO7zFNY0v/PVxujxgVLSscQyAOcKXkW2iAACAb+y2SatREm0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 02:42:55 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_82712_15433582.1154443375628" References: <410-2200682194337757 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6kH8TB.A.eDH.xh2zEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_82712_15433582.1154443375628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I haven't read all posts so I'm not sure if you've got any unadulterated stuff left. Try some of it on a plant you don't care to much about, preferably non-microwaved stuff as microwaved water can kill plants. Also there are bions which are created by breaking down matter (also read a thing about coffee grinders creating ground coffee which defies gravity) and there is so called orgonite and many cases where people have got effects with lots of metal particles which are however far larger that m-state. So there might be a common principle in it. What is the possibility that each similarly tuned particle is an oscillator and all are entrained (like grand father clocks pushed up against a wall) to oscillate in unison, could that create a type of BEC or something similar? Could a quantum coherence come into play? On 8/1/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 8/1/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > I used a small quantity of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) plus > > 20 Mule Team Borax (Death Valley Days hosted/narrated/acted in > > on the radio by Ronald Reagan) Na2B4O7-10 H20. > > This jumped the current for our 12 wallplate cell from > > about 1.5 milliamperes up to about an Ampere at 12 volts. > > I appreciate all the great advice. I am not sure exactly what it is > that I am trying to do. :-) > > I thought it was purely the capacitive effect of the parallel plates > which could turn the water into (engine) whine. Once the water is > charged, then you put it into a hydrolyzer, with electrolyte, and > compare the effect of charged vs uncharged water. > > BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly. But, > as you know, SS still looks oily when clean. > > Much more scum appearing on the surface. Still lots of anode bubbles. > 1.1 mA this morning. > > Terry > > ------=_Part_82712_15433582.1154443375628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I haven't read all posts so I'm not sure if you've got any unadulterated stuff left.

Try some of it on a plant you don't care to much about, preferably non-microwaved stuff as microwaved water can kill plants.

Also there are bions which are created by breaking down matter (also read a thing about coffee grinders creating ground coffee which defies gravity) and there is so called orgonite and many cases where people have got effects with lots of metal particles which are however far larger that m-state.

So there might be a common principle in it.

What is the possibility that each similarly tuned particle is an oscillator and all are entrained (like grand father clocks pushed up against a wall) to oscillate in unison, could that create a type of BEC or something similar? Could a quantum coherence come into play?



On 8/1/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/1/06, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I used a small quantity of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) plus
> 20 Mule Team Borax (Death Valley Days hosted/narrated/acted in
> on the radio by Ronald Reagan) Na2B4O7-10 H20.
> This jumped the current for our 12 wallplate cell from
> about 1.5 milliamperes up to about an Ampere at 12 volts.

I appreciate all the great advice.  I am not sure exactly what it is
that I am trying to do.  :-)

I thought it was purely the capacitive effect of the parallel plates
which could turn the water into (engine) whine.  Once the water is
charged, then you put it into a hydrolyzer, with electrolyte, and
compare the effect of charged vs uncharged water.

BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly.  But,
as you know, SS still looks oily when clean.

Much more scum appearing on the surface.  Still lots of anode bubbles.
1.1 mA this morning.

Terry


------=_Part_82712_15433582.1154443375628-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 08:17:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71FGVe9014872; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:16:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71FGTVm014848; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:16:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:16:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=LuHs46+LGc2ekBdFQIVFbtiJqmc2YNjbvX3/JD3HDTp3GmmDI+r7ku0ZA3pbr6sK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200682115155858 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:15:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94048a70818acee85e7964b98f1f910ba16350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > > I appreciate all the great advice. I am not sure exactly what it is > that I am trying to do. :-) > >From what I can decipher from Schauberger's (1885-1958) waterfuel elixir the electric field from the 0.46 volt electrode potential developed between copper (- 0.34 volts) and silver (-0.80 volts) along with vigorous stirring to move the metals around, the potential between the metal particles stimulate "Pseudo-Autoionization" anions (OH-) and cations (H+ or H3O +) that exothermally hydrate and form water "Nanoclusters/droplets" that will "burn" to H+ + e- ---> H (~ 13 eV) and H + OH ----> H2O + 5.2 eV, net energy release of about 728 kJ/mole of recombining electrons-protons plus the H-OH recombination. > > I thought it was purely the capacitive effect of the parallel plates > which could turn the water into (engine) whine. Once the water is > charged, then you put it into a hydrolyzer, with electrolyte, and > compare the effect of charged vs uncharged water. > You also have a series resistance voltage divider set up by the spaced plates. Fred > > BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly. But, > as you know, SS still looks oily when clean. > > Much more scum appearing on the surface. Still lots of anode bubbles. > 1.1 mA this morning. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 08:38:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71FcRl7028343; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:38:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71FcNaQ028268; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:38:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:38:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GfYq0YBx8nCWTa0de+SvXIsCo73qTi5Yy0NnLVtpX7GO5bwcGirW0BSN+GBfBobrzF4htI+mXQDqQr4Qm6nhcRglEuaoZ07X/uoqcIcatzyiozo8XEZqeFLpIz392l8byTXzT44Mp/vYWzMH3Q6q9BaHaVhF7y5eLaAMjjkc+Gs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:38:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200682194337757 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, John Berry wrote: > I haven't read all posts so I'm not sure if you've got any unadulterated > stuff left. Oh, yeah. About 2 liters. Still charging it, though. > Try some of it on a plant you don't care to much about, preferably > non-microwaved stuff as microwaved water can kill plants. Sorry, my wife has killed all our plants. :-) Siriusly, it's worth a go. > Could a quantum coherence come into play? I don't know about that; but, I would not be surprised if a static field between these close-spaced plates did not cause a sub-state change in the water. Fred pointed out this site: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan.html It might even cause a polymerization of water molecules. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 08:40:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71FdkR5029070; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:39:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71FdiJN029046; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004d01c6b580$b3800230$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:39:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <6RTvKD.A.uFH.AX3zEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick and Terry >> According to this article: >> http://www.aias.us/Members/Johnson-Magnets.pdf >> HoJo believed that the north pole and south pole of permanent >> magnets have independent vortex field lines.... IN the context of a long pretreatment regime in a magnetic field, where water flow in a forced vortex configuration (set up by the crossed electric and magnetic fields) - AND - in the context of what Frank Grimer has been speculating re: so-called "polywater" and the ice-8 phase .... OK there are no capillaries here, per se, but your open water circuit is approximately a two-second looping in what is roughly a loose-toroid - from the perspective of the water, then over the course of many hours, this string-like progression of polar molecules linking up around the toroidal-flow - and the combination of slight strain and negative pF energy being applied to an imaginary string of molecules, there is perhaps some kind of hydrogen bond linking going on to account for the increased viscosity. Some of the water may be changing phase into a "virtual" ice-8 form ? At 20 hours of treatment this is about 40,000 cycles of about 10 cm in length - possibly comparable to pushing water through 4 kilometers of capillaries. Well, that is one very far-out possibility (one of many) ... Jones PS. I think it was Feynman who demonstrated that the energy available in phase-change ordering/disordering is comparable to the energy of combustion. The problem with that understanding of the situation, in the context of waterfuel - is that there seems to be an large increase in gas released from subsequent electrolysis of treated water - whereas one would suspect that such a phase change would instead make water-splitting more difficult - instead of easier... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:07:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71G6TPg011538; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:06:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71G6MVS011464; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:06:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:06:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JYT7G6AU9tMtK+V2bzuq3H2jftwFTiJxtexnQqNwGleRAuw2fhx4vRBnnx/dcBP2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200682116610690 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:06:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940883eb66af61e2a39dc01f85f64265b40350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Terry Blanton wrote. > > > > > > I appreciate all the great advice. I am not sure exactly what it is > > that I am trying to do. :-) > > Don't discount the omnipresent aqueous CO2/H2CO3 either. The H+ and HCO3- or CO3= ions aren't ignoring the plate potentials. that can be less than 0.4 volts to effect reduction of CO2. 5,928,806 Gas Research Institute "A solution of carbon dioxide in an aqueous solvent having electrolyte dissolved therein is electrolyzed utilizing a molybdenum cathode. Faradaic efficiency is generally quite high and without detectable corrosion." "In accordance with the present invention the above reaction is carried out utilizing a molybdenum cathode. A molybdenum cathode can reduce carbon dioxide to methanol selectively and with up to 80 to 100% faradaic efficiency. Such reductions can occur, for example, at -0.7 V vs. SCE at pH 4.2, only 160 mV negative of the standard potential corrected for pH." http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm > > > > BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly. But, > > as you know, SS still looks oily when clean. > > > > Much more scum appearing on the surface. Still lots of anode bubbles. > > 1.1 mA this morning. > > > > Terry > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="amwitz1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: amwitz1.vcf Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="amwitz1.vcf" QkVHSU46VkNBUkQNClZFUlNJT046Mi4xDQpOOjthbXdpdHoxOzsNCkZOOmFtd2l0ejENCk5JQ0tO QU1FOg0KT1JHOjsNClRJVExFOg0KVEVMO0hPTUU7Vk9JQ0U6DQpURUw7V09SSztWT0lDRToNClRF TDtDRUxMO1ZPSUNFOg0KVEVMO1BBR0VSO1ZPSUNFOg0KVEVMO0hPTUU7RkFYOg0KVEVMO1dPUks7 RkFYOg0KQURSO0hPTUU6Ozs7Ozs7DQpBRFI7V09SSzo7Ozs7OzsNClVSTDtIT01FOg0KVVJMO1dP Uks6DQpCREFZOjAwMDANCkFOTklWOjAwMDANClNQT1VTRToNCkZBTUlMWToNCkVNQUlMO1BSRUY7 SU5URVJORVQ6YW13aXR6MUBlYXJ0aGxpbmsubmV0DQpOT1RFOg0KSU07UFJFRjtJTlRFUk5FVDo7 DQpJTTtJTlRFUk5FVDo7DQpJTTtJTlRFUk5FVDo7DQpWQ0FSRF9FTkQ6VkNBUkQNCg== ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:09:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71G9QSo013091; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:09:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71G9OKV013058; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:09:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:09:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M6oZbWF0dYYtJnzzmLD1b3TBKfWiDpkZFi96umlhmhuwJIDek/vkECn7L9VHYx0pDV+yJoSKzP25nKYlgN8s4tjMIWgIqXRCR8QkoOlDSACigTSDA4mjJTDUhHANHuecbxKC8Vbb6bUvIOm/JIzlu30oYw4jrozasoWN8CYj7/8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:09:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: <004d01c6b580$b3800230$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <004d01c6b580$b3800230$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: > IN the context of a long pretreatment regime in a magnetic field, > where water flow in a forced vortex configuration (set up by the > crossed electric and magnetic fields) - AND - in the context of > what Frank Grimer has been speculating re: so-called "polywater" > and the ice-8 phase .... Talk about great minds . . . :-) The surface is looking quite bizarre. The bubbles rise but they do not burst. They don't easily turn loose of the Teflon even when you tap on the side. The ones floating in the surface scum are about 3-5 mm in dia. It reminds me of a toy I had as a child. It was a straw that you sqeezed a glob of goop on the end and blew a plastic bubble. I doubt you can buy it. It was probably toxic. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:16:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GFs3u016808; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:15:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GFmBE016727; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:15:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:15:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=CglD4gDYLhlTaK7nLmxelasjmEeh03n6GlNmYZMWMpcD9WJ/pDlqfwue2Tr6B+WB7ULoHN9eXSFqFJQimerLo0oDk8jdd9eiD7uO3lCxC4eEyPl0tFDW2lEuAso2XTEy9x/m5Oerj94lLDNB/K6tuKmSartQo1Z+Zblqi9yc8MU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:15:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Myron W. Evans Status: O X-Status: I can't seem to recall him being discussed here; but, here he belongs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Evans "Myron Wyn Evans (b 1950), is a Welsh chemist who claims to have developed a theory unifying general relativity and electromagnetism. This theory has not been accepted within mainstream physics. Neither has it been accepted by most fringe groups. Professional background Myron Evans was educated at Pontardawe Grammar School. He later earned a Ph.D. in Chemistry at the University of Wales Aberystwyth, and is the author of many papers and monographs in chemistry and physics. In 1978 he was awarded the Harrison Memorial Prize by the Royal Society of Chemistry. He has been a Junior Research Fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford, Fellow of the University of Wales, SERC Advanced Fellow, and was formerly a researcher at IBM Kingston, New York, and a visiting scientist at Cornell Theory Center." If he can't even get the fringies to accept him, he must be onto something. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:24:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GOGGq021306; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:24:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GOC89021251; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:24:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:24:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s00dlGGgyOI3/Ds6ef+pIFnLTlYNDOb+6bXeK4WevAw/8X6gA35ELIiEk71GVqjgFcfDwPTBiJaAxFBw2wTf7aNkNXFa3cCSjX2u4cGTbVMaRgxpKPkGLEL75ZZdaXtoCocDQk4uR5fAllv071+zFoyNjtSBPxVT1fJZTgdSY58= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:24:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running In-Reply-To: <410-2200682116610690 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200682116610690 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4R6lw.A.yLF.qA4zEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > "A solution of carbon dioxide in an aqueous solvent having electrolyte > dissolved therein is electrolyzed utilizing a molybdenum cathode. Faradaic > efficiency is generally quite high and without detectable corrosion." > > "In accordance with the present invention the above reaction is carried out > utilizing a molybdenum cathode. A molybdenum cathode can reduce carbon > dioxide to methanol selectively and with up to 80 to 100% faradaic > efficiency. Such reductions can occur, for example, at -0.7 V vs. SCE at pH > 4.2, only 160 mV negative of the standard potential corrected for pH." Am I reading this correctly? We can make fuel from greenhouse gas? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:26:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GPhq0022196; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:25:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GPfM6022165; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:25:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:25:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SS0GzF8/M6bhVsf//NMdBW13wFTn8FZI0LkX3IxZ7zQxdI/sdfuOlvWnNb0t6Giv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006821162526442 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:25:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402f9fcdb5b7f99798abd83a90c420223f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.82 Resent-Message-ID: <7UDJm.A.KaF.FC4zEB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.hghouston.com/ss_comp.html "Corrosion resistance is enhanced by decreasing the carbon content, and increasing the nitrogen, chromium, nickel and molybdenum contents." I wrote; > > Terry Blanton wrote. > > > > > > > > > I appreciate all the great advice. I am not sure exactly what it is > > > that I am trying to do. :-) > > > > Don't discount the omnipresent aqueous CO2/H2CO3 either. > > The H+ and HCO3- or CO3= ions aren't ignoring the plate potentials. > that can be less than 0.4 volts to effect reduction of CO2. > > 5,928,806 Gas Research Institute > > "A solution of carbon dioxide in an aqueous solvent having electrolyte > dissolved therein is electrolyzed utilizing a molybdenum cathode. Faradaic > efficiency is generally quite high and without detectable corrosion." > > "In accordance with the present invention the above reaction is carried out > utilizing a molybdenum cathode. A molybdenum cathode can reduce carbon > dioxide to methanol selectively and with up to 80 to 100% faradaic > efficiency. Such reductions can occur, for example, at -0.7 V vs. SCE at pH > 4.2, only 160 mV negative of the standard potential corrected for pH." > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm > > > > > > BTW, I did clean the plates with methylbenzene before assembly. But, > > > as you know, SS still looks oily when clean. > > > > > > Much more scum appearing on the surface. Still lots of anode bubbles. > > > 1.1 mA this morning. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:29:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GSUmZ024020; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GSTae023995; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:28:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:28:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c6b587$82bfd420$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:28:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ice-VIII Status: O X-Status: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_viii.html Usually formed at low temperature and pressure - is there a "virtual" form of this phase - which derives from a substituted force --> i.e. "compreture" which is brought-on by electrostatic forces operating at close range over extended time frames ? Ice-8 has a density of about 1.66 g cm^3 and triple points with ice-six and ice-seven (5°C, 2.1 GPa) and ice-seven and ice-ten (100 K, 62 GPa). The dielectric constant of ice-eight is about 4. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:34:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GYLCP027750; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:34:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GYKTS027719; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:34:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:34:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZIxd+EQJ5kqxWGHL/IM/y1Ojr5je46ZAWgLsfX22Vumksy8o7hFn72Uk6F9Jm7/T; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006821163410315 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:34:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94097776a9ed73b93701f0772ccb22ccb15350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.82 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote, > > On 8/1/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > "A solution of carbon dioxide in an aqueous solvent having electrolyte > > dissolved therein is electrolyzed utilizing a molybdenum cathode. Faradaic > > efficiency is generally quite high and without detectable corrosion." > > > > "In accordance with the present invention the above reaction is carried out > > utilizing a molybdenum cathode. A molybdenum cathode can reduce carbon > > dioxide to methanol selectively and with up to 80 to 100% faradaic > > efficiency. Such reductions can occur, for example, at -0.7 V vs. SCE at pH > > 4.2, only 160 mV negative of the standard potential corrected for pH." > > Am I reading this correctly? We can make fuel from greenhouse gas? > Why not, NAture does it all the time, it's called photosynthesis. No reason why it can't be done with electrochemistry. :-) Fred > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 09:54:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71GrhJk006763; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:53:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71GrfFZ006745; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:53:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:53:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009c01c6b58b$0842b970$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007801c6b587$82bfd420$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:53:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: ice-VIII... and substitue-pressure Status: O X-Status: Given: > Ice-8 has a density of about 1.66 g cm^3 and triple points with > ice-six and ice-seven (5°C, 2.1 GPa) and ice-seven and ice-ten > (100 K, 62 GPa). The dielectric constant of ice-eight is about > 4. The immediate response of skeptics to this proposition is, of course: ...how can such a species, even in "virtual" form, be stable at STP? The (possible) answer is quite surprising, but one will not appreciate it without some familiarity with Frank's idea of negative pF and beta-aether compreture. IF transitory nanobubbles are capable of forming on certain surfaces (i.e. Teflon) and the nanobubble can potentially hold either a few molecules of vapor, or else - if vapor is not present due to other restraints, then they may contain "nothing" (except aether, that is) then this means that there is a potential enormous negative pressure which will be "contained" with in such a hypothetical species - but only so long as its structural integrity can be maintained. Yes... you guessed it, didn't you? WE have a situation where over time - electrochemical hydrogen bonding of water has changed its phase - and increased the density (compressive strength) decreased the volatility (so no vapor is available) and voila ---> This negative pressure arise in a formative nanobubble, which becomes the substitute for "real" pressure - which in turn allows for this hypothetical species: "virtual-ice-8" to become stable at STP - for at least a short period of time. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 10:58:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71HwC3g010358; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:58:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71Hw7eo010311; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:58:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:58:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00bf01c6b594$082f6970$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004d01c6b580$b3800230$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:58:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: This is a reply from Frank Grimer, whose mail is getting bounced from Vo again, so he has sent it to me to post ... hmm... our Petrocracy at work, or theirs ? [when you thing about the tax revenue on Petrol in the UK, vis-a-vis other revenue, the "Ministers" there probably fear waterfuel-boosting to be more of a threat for their cash-flow than big oil does here, knowing how lazy most Americans are] Anyway, re: > The problem with that understanding of the situation, in the > context of waterfuel - is that there seems to be an large > increase in gas released from subsequent electrolysis of treated > water - whereas one would suspect that such a phase change would > instead make water-splitting more difficult - instead of > easier... I don't see it that way. I see it as increase in strain energies which brings the phases closer to their failure stresses. The important point is that the gas release is different from the control thus showing that a structural change has taken place. Frank Well that is encouraging...JB From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 12:52:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71JqPKE009695; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:52:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71JqN66009659; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:52:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014401c6b5a3$fe68b710$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004d01c6b580$b3800230$6401a8c0@NuDell> <00bf01c6b594$082f6970$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:52:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: This is another reply from Frank Grimer, whose email to Vo is getting bounced again in cyberspace - between the UK and USA - so he has sent it to me to post ... [guess the powers-that-be ...consider moi, i.e. present-company to be more in the genre of court-jester than bona-fide threat ... as well they should ] >>We have a situation where over time - electrochemical hydrogen >>bonding of water has changed its phase - and increased the >>density (compressive strength) decreased the volatility (so no >>vapor is available) and voila ---> This negative pressure arise >>in a formative nanobubble, which becomes the substitute for >>"real" pressure - which in turn allows for this hypothetical >>species: "virtual-ice-8" to become stable at STP - for at least >>a short period of time. >I like the - "decreased the volatility (so no vapor is >available)" - bit but I would prefer the word cavity >to the word bubble. To me "bubble" conjures up the >concept of positive pressure whereas here we are dealing >with negative pressure (high pF). >I also like the idea that the ice VIII is stable for >a short period of time - like Nitrogen triiodide. >> JB: Usually formed at low temperature and pressure > 8.2 gigapascals = 1,189,309.45 pounds per square inch > Methinks that is a high pressure - as befits its > "diamond" like structure and high density, Frank Yes, obvioulsy meant "low temp/ high pressure" - ...but that pressure is so very high, even the open-minded optimist doubts that the electrostatic force could accomplish it.... OTOH ... there is Chris Arnold's plasma device which he has found will produce diamond film from carbon... so who knows.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 13:47:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71KU8cx032745; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:30:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71KNel8027607; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:23:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:23:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:23:55 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=6.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:24:03 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:24:05 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Astrophysicist speeds up radioactive decay Status: RO X-Status: Astrophysicist speeds up radioactive decay Other boffins sceptical By Lucy Sherriff Published Tuesday 1st August 2006 10:45 GMT A German physicist thinks he may have found a way to accelerate the process of nuclear decay, dramatically shortening the half life of dangerous nuclear waste. Claus Rolfs, chair of experimental physics at Ruhr University, and his team suggest that embedding an alpha emitter in metal and cooling it to just a few degrees Kelvin could reduce its half life to perhaps just tens of years, instead of thousands. If he is right, the whole business of burying nuclear waste in concrete bunkers could be neatly side-stepped. Full story at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/01/faster_decay/ If true, gives some support to prior research on low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR; cold fusion). -Walter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 14:57:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71LvHBM027595; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:57:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71LvFNA027577; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:57:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:57:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=T6x3o0Jozni3nBvJSEjPKvfOtfV1pmZRXASy8JsbCeIidm2bXtvhfKxAFLeK6gxk56WA0o4z1cVsxOTwYMiKTGhG9B4DQ9dZateq9E1IpcCNArFofxqN0J8JYZAGE73u0C4HaxklAxoG+HeTPrOy3fx7r9BBqaUv6GPgCYv1CAA= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:57:14 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, Patrick Vessey wrote: > > Does yours resemble any of these pictures? Yes. But these seem to use an electrolyte. The first image (the index) looks a lot like mine. Like plastic bubbles. They clump. I can't believe someone did that spherical attempt. I seriously doubt the geometry matters. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 15:02:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k71M23Jp031071; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:02:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k71M20nP030997; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:02:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:02:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:59:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Astrophysicist speeds up radioactive decay In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cool, if it proves reproducible. see also Radioactive Waste Could be Rendered Harmless by Cooling It http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=6181 Harry Walter Faxon wrote: > Astrophysicist speeds up radioactive decay > Other boffins sceptical > By Lucy Sherriff > Published Tuesday 1st August 2006 10:45 GMT > > A German physicist thinks he may have found a way to accelerate the > process of nuclear decay, dramatically shortening the half life of > dangerous nuclear waste. > > Claus Rolfs, chair of experimental physics at Ruhr University, and his > team suggest that embedding an alpha emitter in metal and cooling it to > just a few degrees Kelvin could reduce its half life to perhaps just tens > of years, instead of thousands. If he is right, the whole business of > burying nuclear waste in concrete bunkers could be neatly side-stepped. > > Full story at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/01/faster_decay/ > > If true, gives some support to prior research on low-energy nuclear > reactions (LENR; cold fusion). > > -Walter > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 19:18:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k722I431025260; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:18:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k722I2BH025234; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:18:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Running Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:17:58 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006821163410315 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006821163410315 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 2 Aug 2006 02:17:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k722HxZx025183 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:34:10 -0600: Hi, [snip] >> Am I reading this correctly? We can make fuel from greenhouse gas? >> >Why not, NAture does it all the time, it's called photosynthesis. > >No reason why it can't be done with electrochemistry. :-) Perfectly true, however not as efficient as using the electric power to recharge "betteries" (due to the inefficient use of the resulting methanol). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 19:51:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k722p5bO008840; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:51:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k722p3XJ008817; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:51:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:50:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 2 Aug 2006 02:50:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k722p0sl008738 Resent-Message-ID: <3V7ByC.A.nJC.XMB0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 1 Aug 2006 03:08:08 -0600: Hi, [snip] >http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG [snip] BTW judging by this photo, if the voltage is only 12 V, then it looks like there are too many plates (12 pair?). For electrolysis to have a chance, you need at least 1.21 V drop across each cell, which implies no more than 10 cells, which equates to 11 plates. For it work well, you need 12/1.48 = 8 cells = 9 plates. All assuming that only the end plates are connected. This may explain why there isn't any gas development at the cathode. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 20:53:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k723r4x0004984; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:53:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k723r2SB004952; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:53:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:53:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002a01c6b5e7$1d83af40$0d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:52:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6B5BD.333D7570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6B5BD.333D7570 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C6B5BD.333D7570" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C6B5BD.333D7570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, I have a copy of a Russian paper on a new physical method of = disinfection of water that addresses a portion of the magnetic water = theme. I will send a jpg to anyone that wishes to read it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C6B5BD.333D7570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
I have a copy of a Russian paper on a new physical method = of=20 disinfection of water that addresses a portion of the magnetic water = theme. I=20 will send a jpg to anyone that wishes to read it.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C6B5BD.333D7570-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6B5BD.333D7570 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c6b5e7$1c08cf10$0d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6B5BD.333D7570-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 1 22:07:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7256iHJ005640; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:06:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7256cdQ005574; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:06:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:06:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Qrh5SbwpNYlAwy3EC0h6RWzoszHVdtdGpFnrHMfy1vR7npYl1ooZbKQMRToca8I+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200683245917522 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:59:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407c49e8fca8621153a7b1011f00538d71350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.19 Resent-Message-ID: <4MvQ5C.A.zWB.cLD0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Electrochemical Reduction of CO2 to Organic Fuels Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/CO2/CO2.html Metal Carbonyls: http://www.ilpi.com/organomet/carbonyl.html Electrochemical vs Photosynthetic Reduction of CO2: (Brookhaven National Laboratory) http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/752152-JsQXqJ/native/752152.pdf If dissolved CO2 gas or H2CO3 picks up electrons from Iron or Nickel in the Joe Cell plates the Carbonyl Ligands Fe(CO)5 or Ni(CO)4 might form . Nasty toxic stuff. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
Metal Carbonyls:
 
 
 
Electrochemical  vs Photosynthetic Reduction of CO2:
(Brookhaven National Laboratory)
 
 
If dissolved CO2 gas or H2CO3 picks up electrons from Iron or Nickel
in the Joe Cell plates the Carbonyl Ligands Fe(CO)5 or Ni(CO)4 might form .
 
Nasty toxic stuff.
 
Fred
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 01:30:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k728UUkW009585; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:30:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k728US0K009570; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:30:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [VO]:Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water From: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk Reply-to: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Sender-IP-Address: 194.105.164.99 X-Mailer: Nameko 0.10.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:30:25 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I have a copy of a Russian paper on a new physical method of > disinfection of water that addresses a portion of the > magnetic water theme. I will send a jpg to anyone that > wishes to read it. Richard, Can you drop me a copy, please? [Sorry to mail this to list, rather than privately, but my ISP is currently blacklisted by Richard's...] Patrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 03:08:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72A7xPk017416; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:07:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72A7vPj017357; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:07:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:07:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water From: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk Reply-to: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Sender-IP-Address: 194.105.164.99 X-Mailer: Nameko 0.10.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 10:18:47 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > I wrote: > > Does yours resemble any of these pictures? > Terry wrote: > Yes. But these seem to use an electrolyte. Schiffer is quite clear that he considers using an electrolyte is OK *if necessary*, and you're going for a relatively quick result. However, he also says that "For the patient experimenter or one that is using neat water, i.e., water without electrolyte, excellent results are achieved with currents as low as 50 m/Amps". He's since stressed this on list - very low current (still at around 12vdc) is effective. > I can't believe someone did that spherical attempt. I > seriously doubt > the geometry matters. If you look at Moshe's homepage, you'll see that he has a definite world view. Now, what we've been discussing on this list has been purely in mechanistic terms, whereas there are those on the JC lists that hold other (and various), more 'spiritual' views. To these individuals, geometry may matter a great deal - Schiffer's position is that he believes the true JC is a 'down converter' of energies from another place. What I find interesting, and why I sometimes seem to lurch from one position to another, is that both views may be perfectly valid, depending upon the frame of reference. Science as we know it does a fair job of explaining the rules/laws that govern the three dimensional world that we see on a daily basis. Why shouldn't there be also be certain set 'laws' governing that which we cannot see - the higher dimensions, spirituality or however you wish to describe it. If there are such laws, and if we accept that these other planes of existence intersect with ours, then it may make absolute sense that certain geometry's are key to tapping these energies (think about Hinton's [e.g.] descriptions of 2D and 3D world interactions for a simple explanation as to why this could be so). Patrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 03:32:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72AVxs9031558; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:32:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72AVw0I031538; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:31:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 03:31:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KQHEC3Cfpb+ZNmHUJ4hx8K0fBgCLNNdPvzd8pRGzVH0Ww3XixOA/4/SEV/v06Oyl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006832103144164 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Electrochemical Reduction of CO2 to Organic Fuels Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 04:31:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94046a858d76c11317efc6cc42cfd6b3d50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.95 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The nuts and bolts of it. http://www.osti.gov/bridge/ "The Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information provides free public access to full-text documents and bibliographic citations of Department of Energy (DOE) research report literature. Documents are primarily from 1994 forward and were produced by DOE, the DOE contractor community, and/or DOE grantees. Legacy documents are added as they become available in electronic format." http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/777868-EA5V2v/native/777868.pdf Comparison of electrochemical and photochemical systems. When the catalytic reduction of carbon dioxide is truly homogeneous (occurs in the solution), electrochemical and photochemical systems may have much in common. The means of electron delivery differs, of course, with photoinduced electron transfer processes serving the role of the electrode in the photochemical system. Many of the catalyst systems studied so far, cobalt and nickel macrocycle systems, for example, work in both kinds of experiments. In both approaches, the ultimate source of these electrons is an issue. Sacrificial reagents (generally organic compounds that become oxidized) are commonly used and one of the challenges is to replace these reactions with processes that are less costly and wasteful. For aqueous systems, it would be highly desirable to use the water oxidation half-reaction, i.e. H20 =2e-+1/2 02 + 2H+ for this purpose so that the overall reaction would be COZ + 2 Hz0 + CHsOH + 3/2 OzThe challenge remains the effective development and deployment of water oxidation catalysts. Electrocatalysis Photocatalytic Reduction At present, electrochemical reduction of CO2 yields carbon monoxide, formate, methane, etc. with good current efficiencies and, in photochemical systems, quantum yields for carbon monoxide (and/or formate) are up to 40%. Electrochemical and photochemical electron sources in the presence of proton sources can avoid use of expensive H2, but both need: Faster catalytic processes, more stable catalytic systemsDevelopment of useful second half reaction, i.e. elimination of sacrificial reagent/useful anode reaction ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
The nuts and bolts of it.
 
 
"The Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information provides free public access to full-text documents and bibliographic citations of Department of Energy (DOE) research report literature. Documents are primarily from 1994 forward and were produced by DOE, the DOE contractor community, and/or DOE grantees. Legacy documents are added as they become available in electronic format."
 
 
Comparison of electrochemical and photochemical systems.

When the catalytic reduction of carbon dioxide is truly homogeneous (occurs in the

solution), electrochemical and photochemical systems may have much in common. The

means of electron delivery differs, of course, with photoinduced electron transfer

processes serving the role of the electrode in the photochemical system. Many of the

catalyst systems studied so far, cobalt and nickel macrocycle systems, for example, work

in both kinds of experiments. In both approaches, the ultimate source of these electrons

is an issue. Sacrificial reagents (generally organic compounds that become oxidized) are

commonly used and one of the challenges is to replace these reactions with processes that

are less costly and wasteful. For aqueous systems, it would be highly desirable to use the

water oxidation half-reaction, i.e.

H20 =2e-+1/2 02 + 2H+

for this purpose so that the overall reaction would be

COZ + 2 Hz0 + CHsOH + 3/2 OzThe challenge remains the effective

development and deployment of water oxidation catalysts.

Electrocatalysis Photocatalytic Reduction

At present, electrochemical reduction of CO2 yields carbon monoxide, formate, methane,

etc. with good current efficiencies and, in photochemical systems, quantum yields for

carbon monoxide (and/or formate) are up to 40%.

Electrochemical and photochemical electron sources in the presence of proton

sources can avoid use of expensive H2, but both need:

Faster catalytic processes, more stable catalytic systemsDevelopment of

useful second half reaction, i.e. elimination of sacrificial reagent/useful

anode reaction

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 07:08:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72E7is9014089; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:07:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72E7gZ3014062; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:07:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:07:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hBctngLibDprkkr1tGW1uvevNQ80mw8VhC2YAhIv2a7pAcdlUlhRfN/sydc0LL8vD8uxoST5mVGz2w0kkOajnPicLtLW8dQGAqroNFEZ8lAh818N2zmAaR7M5sv6CUyYrS055tROl5Sy2vUyzfE8Obev7oBdRBYIGHW98snK+44= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:07:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/1/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > All assuming that only the end plates are connected. > > This may explain why there isn't any gas development at the > cathode. There are 16 plates and no electrolysis was anticipated. Also, Jones had recommended an even lower voltage. The goal was to "charge" the water, not make gas. Besides, gas is forming on the surface of the teflon between the anode and the opposing insulated side of the pan. This is something other than electrolysis . . . something I don't understand. I'll post an image. http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Tiny_Bubbles.jpg It's almost 700 Kbytes so you can zoom in on the bubbles. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 07:40:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72EegWx002078; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:40:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72EeePE002053; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:40:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:40:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IUgGeR0YLsFgHOoDbPbMTxiwDeR70IolbDKnb8JEA0CNDhqp0mjT/Id5G9S13IggIkmnvcQPRYs4g3KLKlzGn6+MMLHIahj5IMx7EdXxpgjcWxuTVE5IQtBxE/DPoxK87DWIfuIXbm3MCAg3eeBqnTD5BC9iJkrcE9GfaOy+eV4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:40:40 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk wrote: > Schiffer is quite clear that he considers using an electrolyte is OK *if necessary*, and you're going for a relatively quick result. I'll probably try it both ways. Distilled water at Walmart is only $0.68/gal. > However, he also says that "For the patient experimenter or one that is using neat water, i.e., water without electrolyte, excellent results are achieved with currents as low as 50 m/Amps". He's since stressed this on list - very low current (still at around 12vdc) is effective. Gee, I don't see how you can get 50 mA with 12 VDC with neat water. I'm only getting 1.1 mA with 9 VDC. Larger surface area? > If there are such laws, and if we accept that these other planes of existence intersect with ours, then it may make absolute sense that certain geometry's are key to tapping these energies (think about Hinton's [e.g.] descriptions of 2D and 3D world interactions for a simple explanation as to why this could be so). I know that I know practically nothing about reality. Current string theory speculates that there are 6 "hidden" dimensions rolled up into a Calabi-Yau geometry. WTF is a Calabi-Yaw manifold? http://members.wri.com/jeffb/visualization/calabi-grid.gif Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 08:28:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72FSOjl029264; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:28:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72FSNcw029246; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:28:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:28:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Gee, I don't see how you can get 50 mA with 12 VDC with neat > water. > I'm only getting 1.1 mA with 9 VDC. Larger surface area? The cell Patrick is talking about has only two or three neutral plates - you have 16 total - 14 neutral, correct? Your plate-to-plate voltage drop in tiny. The neutral plates would divide the voltage drop, which you want to be under about 1.2 per plate so that electrolysis does NOT take place, but close to that level so that the max current can flow w/o gas forming. With 16 plates you can probably use 20 volts. Do you have a wall-wart near that level? Some of the HP large block transformers that they used to sell with their printers are 24 volts ... What about using two wall-warts in series? you have so many free wires you could use the plates one and sixteen (like now) and the attach the second leads to plates 5 and 11, or some such series arrangement. or else try to find a block with more ripple or else what about - one AC and one DC? sounds weird ... you could use the DC on the end plates:one and sixteen (like now) and the attach the AC on plates 5 and 11, or some such arrangement to get the net current WAY up from what it is now.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 08:35:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72FYsYA001035; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:34:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72FYppT000995; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:34:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:34:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005f01c6b649$2b3f89d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:34:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: or the more obvious solution - you have so many free wires that you can power six plates instead of two - with the same wart, correct? That should give you more current. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 08:43:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72FhWIh006315; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72FhVx3006295; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:43:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ISAUkNKIUb/x7gFupePVQvCBgmx6M2onfh8A/vC+lBBpVxQxSUJTWr/v09iAFJkF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200683215431638 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:43:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f477a5b89ff7b2fa142c3e3b6409fdd6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.175 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I went over our 12 plate (~ 1.0 cm spacing) with my cohort/lackey with a starting voltage of "about 9 volts at 1.6 ma on the rechargeable power unit there were small bubbles on the water-plastic interface near the anode plate too. The rechargeable dc supply was brought up to ~ 13 vdc and the current maxed at less than 2.0 ma for a day or so until baking soda was added to increase it to about 19 ma. Adding borax the next day increased the current to almost an ampere. Fred Jones Beene wrote. > > Terry, > > > Gee, I don't see how you can get 50 mA with 12 VDC with neat > > water. > > I'm only getting 1.1 mA with 9 VDC. Larger surface area? > > The cell Patrick is talking about has only two or three neutral > plates - you have 16 total - 14 neutral, correct? Your > plate-to-plate voltage drop in tiny. > > The neutral plates would divide the voltage drop, which you want > to be under about 1.2 per plate so that electrolysis does NOT take > place, but close to that level so that the max current can flow > w/o gas forming. > > With 16 plates you can probably use 20 volts. Do you have a > wall-wart near that level? Some of the HP large block transformers > that they used to sell with their printers are 24 volts ... What > about using two wall-warts in series? you have so many free wires > you could use the plates one and sixteen (like now) and the attach > the second leads to plates 5 and 11, or some such series > arrangement. > > or else try to find a block with more ripple or else what about - > one AC and one DC? sounds weird ... you could use the DC on the > end plates:one and sixteen (like now) and the attach the AC on > plates 5 and 11, or some such arrangement to get the net current > WAY up from what it is now.... > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 09:11:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72GAIIN021487; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:10:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72G2YSg016876; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:02:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:02:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=p7NjhhM2mE8kWvrZLcxI0VS5kEfjlP3oskKpe8n57qKRA6STDpXEj/bDaXTGzvuv; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068321622195 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:02:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403920833dd91e5d461655af1cf3a9b885350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.175 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/2/06, patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk wrote: > > > Schiffer is quite clear that he considers using an electrolyte is OK *if necessary*, and you're going for a relatively quick result. > > I'll probably try it both ways. Distilled water at Walmart is only $0.68/gal. > > > However, he also says that "For the patient experimenter or one that is using neat water, i.e., water without electrolyte, excellent results are achieved with currents as low as 50 m/Amps". He's since stressed this on list - very low current (still at around 12vdc) is effective. > > Gee, I don't see how you can get 50 mA with 12 VDC with neat water. > I'm only getting 1.1 mA with 9 VDC. Larger surface area? > With all those wired up plates, check the voltage between two of them to see how the resistivity rho = Resistance*Area/spacing, is looking. I won't insult your intellect by saying V = I*R. :-) Fred > > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 09:20:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72GK4nM027517; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:20:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72GBs1i022252; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:11:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=M8NUtb+njpjJIO/CFqSY71pOY2cRoKeEbIpqi2JSfy8bWsK6X+VQZYgAf8EFuOyc; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:11:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: aa463fd6799f547694f5150ab1c16ac05e64a811bd85dd4f1b0ae1015cc1b16d674f5eaa12a6f520350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know most of what I say here is in left field and not the same approach that you all are taking, but maybe my experience will help in some small way. It is not difficult to get 12V/50mA from Wal-Mart distilled water with out additives, although I normally use only a two electrode system which is not all SS. My electrical anode is SS and the cathode is carbon rod varying in size from 6mm to 12mm with electrode spacing of some 5cm. I found three types of distilled water, 1) Ozone treated, 2)Carbon Filtered and 3)Pharmaceutical grade. They do act differently within a cell with all parameters the same except the water. Not being a chemist I really will not speculate why. Using SS for both electrodes in my work requires a much higher input voltage than of course the carbon of one electrode. Likewise the preferred connection is with the cathode using carbon and the anode SS. Reversed direction will have a marked current difference. Early in treating cells a CCW rotation is found which varies from 1/2.35 to 1/3.58 RPM, this rotation stops after 18 hours. Anomalous bubbles may appear from normal water degassing. I will normall leave water sit with a goose neck for 48 to 72 hours before doing a test. pH varies from 6.9 to ~8.0 and then drops back to almost 7.0 (point where rotation stops). What ever this may be worth, otherwise sorry for taking your time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 09:46:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72GkRgs010713; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:46:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72GkNNT010659; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:46:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NFLLHVUm3twMpE3AUIxulKpaK8QYX/QlsXIwqo/iRSL6CP0EAJPc7UhdIIbV5N9Nz7BrWYhcsDemSPnYe6IBh7OojSSBZIEQwP+zhkSTY9xwnsdCGX3LRMiTBATXtgLExyjWt/F9+VEcR3tLnzADy5wqHOgL55s6xKgy32MhMvg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:46:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > With 16 plates you can probably use 20 volts. Do you have a > wall-wart near that level? Some of the HP large block transformers > that they used to sell with their printers are 24 volts ... What > about using two wall-warts in series? you have so many free wires > you could use the plates one and sixteen (like now) and the attach > the second leads to plates 5 and 11, or some such series > arrangement. Okay. I have a hefty 24 V xfmr and two twelve volt batteries. I'll finish out the week with the present config and put the sample in storage. (Masonic jar? ) For sample two, I'll kick it up a notch to 24V with distilled water. I've found a volunteer to test the final hydrobooster in one of his fleet vehicles which gets 17.1 mpg. He said if I can get a 30% boost in his mileage, I can do all his fleet for $600 each. His drivers go 30,000 mi/yr. His fuel cost is $5200 per vehicle per year; so, his savings would be $1,560 per year. I figure my material cost would be around $100 per unit. All the parts (and day labor) are available at Home Despot. :-) Terry "You want franchises with that?" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 09:50:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72Gnmbo013142; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:49:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72GneAo012995; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:49:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:49:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uFeJZAt7NA2/spzEs0pNpjzybAjMkuW4JW27zsC68H4gTgk4v4IxYqwTFccp3TAM5cnhGdRo1XwHhfRJukPi0e3P2ciqgwGJ3pJFp69vAzN+HfeKFuIIO0nutciQZyR4t/cWro20qx7NMcvnhkf/5xFmvGJL92vtpHjfm9jOPHw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:49:34 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: <410-220068321622195 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220068321622195 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > With all those wired up plates, check the voltage between two of them to > see how the resistivity rho = Resistance*Area/spacing, is looking. > I won't insult your intellect by saying V = I*R. :-) So, why does current only flow between the plates? It can't go around? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 09:59:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72GxMTZ019302; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72GxKT1019272; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:59:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:59:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009c01c6b654$fb561a70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:59:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: Willis > Using SS for both electrodes in my work requires a much higher > input voltage than of course the carbon of one electrode. > Likewise the preferred connection is with the cathode using > carbon and the anode SS. Reversed direction will have a marked > current difference. Interesting. There are a number of reports of anomalies using carbon cathodes in arc or glow discharges, such as the work of Bill Alek. Have you weighed your cathode before and after to determine if there is significant mass loss? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:01:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72H16Fe020559; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:01:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72H13Hq020507; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:01:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:01:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Anthony" To: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:00:50 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c6b655$35aa33a0$b463ad46 STUFFMARTUSA2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: Hey Guys, How do I unsubscribe? Thanks! Anthony From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:06:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72GqtB8015301; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:52:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72GqoW3015243; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:52:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:52:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HeFxsdW4xNnacO9Q7br9LEtIzznwGXNgUN9q0+WCCBUx0acWSkLkyjw9iWLNGLo8AHOOEvnBYG+dAngMrkrqHOpWYGJ2ETPE1sZaqhebORfAbDgfikXJ0k15t+HaYhuQDavQ/DnHjzcfKfyQhYRgNDeWOrfbdI8AEuCRx2axYhs= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:52:46 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Willis Jenkin wrote: > What ever this may be worth, otherwise sorry for taking your time. No no!! This is just the information we need. I love it when a lurker joins in. I'm getting bored talking to the same old farts. ;-) Do you have a picture of your setup? If you can' t post it, send it to my email address and I'll post it for you. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:08:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72H8Qna025598; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:08:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72H8OPI025557; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:08:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:08:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a101c6b656$3eb834a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:08:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Status: O X-Status: Terry > I've found a volunteer to test the final hydrobooster in one of > his > fleet vehicles which gets 17.1 mpg. He said if I can get a 30% > boost > in his mileage, I can do all his fleet for $600 each. Whoa... that might be a bit hasty. I think you will see a 30% boost if the device is properly built and sized, etc. but there are so many unanswered questions about long term corrosion, etc. John Steck mentioned this briefly. If the valves go prematurely, then all the savings and more are quickly eaten up. ... at least get a big product liability insurance policy !! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:23:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72HN5HP002516; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:23:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72HN4U2002496; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:23:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:23:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=jnm0l6AClJNqGDz2fNd3bVAl+W6cyj3W9ttz9koCn14XxmjqLZxYBc30J5Ugjdbu7tFtTmWLJIrG1s0Fzs1SLf1pNtKKN3rNWkZJ+fkJeYq8DlCf7odnMHV8A91mhhbJ2DH5r/JlrZfzMIteXAwRoC7IPB7okgMu4l40+koIyXI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:23:04 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <000001c6b655$35aa33a0$b463ad46 STUFFMARTUSA2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_90405_17293399.1154539384014" References: <000001c6b655$35aa33a0$b463ad46 STUFFMARTUSA2> Resent-Message-ID: <3L_7BD.A.8m.49N0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_90405_17293399.1154539384014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline same way you subscribed, but in reverse. On 8/2/06, Anthony wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > How do I unsubscribe? > > Thanks! > Anthony > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_90405_17293399.1154539384014 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline same way you subscribed, but in reverse. 

On 8/2/06, Anthony <personal@stuffmartusa.com> wrote:
Hey Guys,

How do I unsubscribe?

Thanks!
Anthony





--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_90405_17293399.1154539384014-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:35:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72HYTAx008889; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:34:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72HYRoP008854; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:34:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:34:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RhM3pkj9z/G54XlNJXtpM80huNmvTbkujFn0JQfyML7ceeYAiBlDKz0kfSzcKeP9; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:34:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: aa463fd6799f547694f5150ab1c16ac05e64a811bd85dd4f8c8409c7968da9a8f41b239dd576a662350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I promise not to be a lurking pest, so I will impart a few more caveats before moving back into the shadows. I'm sure you all know that the current increase is not a linear function, it increases in steps, you will add voltage and see very little difference and then bam! up a few or 10's of mA. I must say that when you do not see gas being evolved that you are working closer to strickly ohmic conduction versus ionic. Also you will not be able to stop gas once you exceed as Robin stated ~ 1.2V. Although some in the field have evolved gas below this level with the proper supply (pulsed DC). The Teflon pan may not be the best of containers to try your test in, I might suggest a liter beaker or some HDPE container. What I have observed is that a passive metal container is part of the circuit, if connected or not. Over the years many a SS container has suffered microscopic pin holes when being used in this way. I'll keep watching and if I think I have anything of value I'll drop a line. Good Luck.. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 10:53:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72HqpJs020594; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:52:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72HqoTG020578; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:52:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:52:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:51:29 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C27CD47C CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Cavitation Propulsion? Thread-Index: Aca2XEg0guJzOoMASFiOS8SBKrAcyQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2006 17:51:30.0669 (UTC) FILETIME=[491F91D0:01C6B65C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k72Hqe7N020471 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cavitation Propulsion? Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone ever attempted to use cavitation as a form of propulsion? Perhaps that's what Schauberger or Clem were doing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 11:11:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72IA3Ws030145; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:10:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72HqCjp020285; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:52:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:52:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00dd01c6b65c$54b851d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:51:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <8HTy5D.A.Q8E.HZO0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydrogen boosting Status: O X-Status: This page has a fairly complete listing of companies making electrolysis cells for the add-on market for cars and trucks. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency_Hydrogen_Injection I suspect that long-haul trucking is the biggest and most demanding customer for these. Here is one test showing a bona fide 30% highway gain for trucking : http://ihsresearch.com/gallery.php?id=3 This involved using a 1994 Detroit Diesel 60 Series Heavy Goods Vehicle (HGV) at two different test sites near Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Canada seems to have more makers of add-on systems than the USA for whatever reasons. More long-haul trucking mileage per population, for one thing. The cynic might say lax laws regarding stock manipulation, is another factor. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 11:26:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72IK3uv004960; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:20:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72IFDXF001686; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:15:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=upGQX1sgisVXt79DEsWzA3Pf71frB9VuIlvar0Ky5SX4U2DDGXRkUxat1XdXwTvI7C6sarJ0OPwuGWCLinMw7A1rDURXbmZtudayYS5JmdMO0ZSE0mWzRekKOG6hBElRdds9Gm1EZJXLJ+8i1cow1/m0NLq0SqRveAkkQbNt6fE= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:14:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: <00a101c6b656$3eb834a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <004e01c6b648$463c5f20$6401a8c0 NuDell> <00a101c6b656$3eb834a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <0fpVwB.A.Ga.ruO0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Whoa... that might be a bit hasty. I think you will see a 30% > boost if the device is properly built and sized, etc. but there > are so many unanswered questions about long term corrosion, etc. > > John Steck mentioned this briefly. If the valves go prematurely, > then all the savings and more are quickly eaten up. > > ... at least get a big product liability insurance policy !! Geeze, you sound like an attorney. ;-) We will start with his oldest vehicle which he can no longer depreciate. He knows the risks. The rewards far outweigh his risk. Even a 10% improvement pays back in a little over a year. I mainly want to see if there's any difference due to "charging". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 12:34:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72JXo0E015757; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:33:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72JXeG4015635; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:33:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <483.6842c6b.3202580b aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:33:31 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1154547211" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <-FYkeB.A.B0D.T4P0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: The Secret of Life, Free Energy & The Human Body Status: RO X-Status: -------------------------------1154547211 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The books the Holographic Universe by David Bohm, The Secret of Life - Georges Lakhovsky and Mark Clement, Cosmic Rays and Radiations of Living Beings Translated from the French by Mark Clement, London William Heinmann (Medical Books) LTD 1939, and The Body Electric, Electormagnatism and the Foundation of Life, Robert 0. Becker, M.D., And Gary Seldon illustrated by David Bichell, Quill, William Morrow New York Copyright C 1985 by Robert O. Becker, M.D. and Gary Seldon discuss the science of how the human body produces, uses and manipulates energy. I have proposed from what I have gathered that the human body produces tiny holographic time travel energy vortexes and portals in every body cell from compressed hydrogen in the water and other fluids in the body that are compressed and forced through the cell tubular like membranes that allow compressed light and energy to travel faster than the speed of light, so that the human body, spirit, and mind being made of such holographic compressed energy can communicate with itself throughout all space and time in the multiverse of being. Bohm used the holographic model of reality and the universe to disprove the Hiesenburg uncertainty principle by showing that if information is know about a particle in the future by means of holographic information time travel teleportation it can be found with certainty without changing its position. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1154547211 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The books the Holographic Universe by David Bohm, = ;The Secret of Life - Georges Lakhovsky and Mark Clement, Cosmi= c Rays and Radiations of Living Beings Translated from the French by Mark Cl= ement, London William Heinmann (Medical Books) LTD 1939, and The Body Electric, Electormagnatism and the Foundation of Life, Robert 0.=20= Becker, M.D., And Gary Seldon illustrated by David Bichell, Quill, William M= orrow New York Copyright C  1985 by Robert O. Becker, M.D. and Gary Sel= don  discuss the science of how the human body produces,=20= uses and manipulates energy. 
 
I have proposed from what I have gathered that the human body produces=20= tiny holographic time travel energy vortexes and portals in every=20= body cell from compressed hydrogen in the water and other fluids i= n the body that are compressed and forced through the cell tubular like memb= ranes that allow compressed light and energy to travel faster than the speed= of light, so that the human body, spirit, and mind being made of=20= such holographic compressed energy can communicate with itself throughout al= l space and time in the multiverse of being. 
 
Bohm used the holographic model of reality and the universe to disprove= the Hiesenburg uncertainty principle by showing that if information is know= about a particle in the future by means of holographic information time tra= vel teleportation it can be found with certainty without changing its positi= on.
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1154547211-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 12:46:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72JbLRI017738; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:37:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72JbGbw017675; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:37:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:37:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:37:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: The Secret of Life, Free Energy & The Human Body To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1154547425" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5055 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1154547425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2006 5:33:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, razldazl iinet.net.au writes: Psychics offer a service that, scientifically, has yet to be proven actually exists, and that is just one aspect of proof it would take to convince Shermer. Russian scientists have already proven psychic ideas and techniques to be factual and scientific. The book- The Body Electric, Electormagnatism and the Foundation of Life, Robert 0. Becker, M.D., And Gary Seldon illustrated by David Bichell, Quill, William Morrow New York Copyright C 1985 by Robert O. Becker, M.D. and Gary Seldon references many Russian and other scientific experiments that would support psychic ideas and techniques. Nikola Tesla and many other scientists from before World War II, had developed technologies that were published in the New York Times, that are now classified by the US NSA to be used in psychotronic warfare and to control the US population illegally. A simple variable capacitor and ultrasonic sound capacitors connected to a tesla coil and to a computer system using a software spectrum analyzer can be used to see the white noise region which is the regions where the aura, mind, and time travel information is located and can be seen, heard, and modeled on a computer screen. Many animals like mice and cats which some people are related to can hear higher spectrum sounds and energies in the white noise region that allow them to hear sounds and thoughts from the future and the past. The movie Black Moon ( 1975), showed how the world wars between the sexes, were used to kill off the telepathic French village and replace it with a non-telepathic post war culture which also covers up and classifies all science done before World War II to hide telepathic ideas. In the movie the Black Moon the telepathic grandmother speaks with mice, since she can hear their higher pitched voices that normal persons cannot hear but which mice and many other animals can hear and speak to each other with. The grandmotherly women is shown speaking to perhaps Richard Wagner in the past by means of a radio to warn Wagner of the outcome of the war between the sexes and World War II. The US scientists do not read and often ignore Russian science and pre-World War II science, since it would be used to also show what the US government mind and body control energy beam projects are doing to the USA population. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1154547425 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 7/21/2006 5:33:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, razldazl= iinet.net.au writes:
Psychic= s offer a service that, scientifically, has yet to be proven
actually exi= sts, and that is just one aspect of proof it would take to
convince Sherm= er.
Russian scientists have already proven psychic ideas and techniques to=20= be factual and scientific. 
 
The book- The Body Electric, Electormagnatism and the Foundatio= n of Life, Robert 0. Becker, M.D., And Gary Seldon illustrated by David Bich= ell, Quill, William Morrow New York Copyright C  1985 by Robert O. Beck= er, M.D. and Gary Seldon
 
references many Russian and other scientific experiments that would sup= port psychic ideas and techniques.
 
Nikola Tesla and many other scientists from before World War II, had de= veloped technologies that were published in the New York Times, that are now= classified by the US NSA to be used in psychotronic warfare and to control=20= the US population illegally.
 
A simple variable capacitor and ultrasonic sound capacitors connected t= o a tesla coil and to a computer system using a software spectrum analyzer c= an be used to see the white noise region which is the regions where the aura= , mind, and time travel information is located and can be seen, heard,&= nbsp;and modeled on a computer screen.  Many animals like mice and cats= which some people are related to can hear higher spectrum sounds and energi= es in the white noise region that allow them to hear sounds and thoughts&nbs= p;from the future and the past.
 
The movie Black Moon ( 1975), showed how the world wars between th= e sexes, were used to kill off the telepathic French village and replace it=20= with a non-telepathic post war culture which also covers up and classifies a= ll science done before World War II to hide telepathic ideas. In the movie t= he Black Moon the telepathic grandmother speaks with mice, since she can hea= r their higher pitched voices that normal persons cannot hear but which mice= and many other animals can hear and speak to each other with.  The gra= ndmotherly women is shown speaking to perhaps Richard Wagner in the past by=20= means of a radio to warn Wagner of the outcome of the war between the sexes=20= and World War II.
 
The US scientists do not read and often ignore Russian science and pre-= World War II science, since it would be used to also show what the US govern= ment mind and body control energy beam projects are doing to the USA po= pulation.
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1154547425-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 14:34:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72LY77s023689; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:34:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72LXWxw023188; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:33:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:33:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pm97RtoUCKQE3FG02ndD5A2dNWQgTcE/DCnkdIHGstqSQjjtMbBCCfdoQVIFOWtv7BvdkGBiYP/cQe4xJTzKVBoQN+CU3b91r3AdPCCdct1jwT2oiq9AfuF4SxGQMiGKOb4IN29LcwlDF/q1TY9irV4gVAvFgRq5vdoEf59BsGo= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:32:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WJ's setup is here: http://geocities.com/terry1094/wtrchg.jpg Willis, How long have you been charging in this photo? Is there an electrolyte? If so, what kind (NaCl, KOH, etc)? Voltage and current? TIA Terry On 8/2/06, Willis Jenkin wrote: > Here is a simple unit, 500ml distilled (farm grade), 12mm carbon cathode, > two 2mm SS rod anodes. Input voltage 4.6V at 6.4mA. > > Doesn't show much but I will send it anyway. > > Thanks... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 15:14:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72ME22d018212; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:14:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72ME0MH018176; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:14:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:13:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a601c6b67f$87c4c7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:03:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/69999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture Status: O X-Status: Terry Willis already answered your questions in the same post ... must be a hot afternoon in Hot-lanta... > Here is a simple unit, 500ml distilled (farm grade), 12mm carbon > cathode, two 2mm SS rod anodes. Input voltage 4.6V at 6.4mA. That seems to prove his point about carbon being special for this kind of application - to get that kind of current in distilled water with such a gap - combined with Fred's speculation about a possible catalytic effect --ergo, am ordering carbon cathodes to try. These folks have them: http://www.sargentwelch.com/product.asp?pn=WLS14570-C_PK&sid=google&cm_mmc=google-_-cpc-_-sgtw-_-carbonrods From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 15:36:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72MZo7Y030909; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72MZlI0030862; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=frq1cv6R5PXlOl7Yia9ykf0h4ag4jcXgDbPkDY6lMkM0pfeIe4sHehHdP5f9SHik7vhOexSwkKaDL1nOhF4ET8k547YZuyr7l/HE5co57URIK8bTVwF+QWTqjDG4v9qDcqOa9QsREm7SLWyrxN8i8BrSkGqXRYZaoZVas8V9FzQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:35:43 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture In-Reply-To: <01a601c6b67f$87c4c7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <01a601c6b67f$87c4c7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <2SqmLB.A.HiH.CjS0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry > > Willis already answered your questions in the same post ... must > be a hot afternoon in Hot-lanta... Yeah, and since Iana.org took over the Inet, nothing has been right. However, I have some bad news. I tested experimental and control water and got no BAM effect. Then, thinking about homemade icecream and Grimer, (what a combination!), I took some (5 ml) "charged" water and added a few grains of NaCl. Well, it fuggin' chimed (with a 30 Hz buzz) and exploded. So did the (5 ml sample) control. Sorry. Terry PS Ain't changin' my procedure, however. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 16:49:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k72Nn0MX012913; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:49:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72Nmwco012873; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:48:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rbrzHc1Fvi/I1p2s2yW5YrezPkYqC3FHkiUYvnxczS+98lOtLdz+DP0+es0p3PhR; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: aa463fd6799f547694f5150ab1c16ac05e64a811bd85dd4f8f63b69f5ef26418b4cb799f2508dfeb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <_TojAC.A.FJD.pnT0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If any of you are going to work with carbon (graphite) rods, save some money, this is where we obtain them. http://www.graphitestore.com/cat.asp/spcat_id/1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 17:05:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73006Ai020327; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:00:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k72Nx8PK019654; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:59:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01cf01c6b68e$b241b620$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01a601c6b67f$87c4c7c0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:52:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture Status: O X-Status: Ok, darn... so Terry is telling me that the exposiveness in a microwave oven of my charged water is due only to the small NaCl content. If 100% true, that makes it slightly less interesting in a way, but that does not account for the much greater amount of gas derived from this water during normal electrolysis (at least for a while). This is hard to document but we are working on it. BTW - placing a one liter HDPE cell (aka "tupperware") on a magnetic stirrer (no stir bar, of course, as the cathode is centered) instead of on a large magnet gives significantly more turbulent action with the same low current through the cell - as one might expect. Anode is nickel mesh held against the container wall of the tupperware with plastic clothes-pins ... very high tech. Calling this one the "whirlpool". This is to determine if electromechanical motion is itself significant in the precharging regime and Teflon is unnecessary (polyethylene is also very hydrophobic). Too early to tell. If the mechanical motion is important, Richard could make this stuff in industrial quantities by adding some charging electrodes to his monster vortex machine. Wouldn't surprise me if this has already crossed his mind. Jones The water movement is being called "vortex" even through there is no "hole" - the flow appears to spiral out to the wall, break into eddies, go down, and come up again in the center - so the path of an average molecule would most likely be roughly a helix. One speculation is that any ordered macro-spin of water-movement could, over time, impart some level of microstructure (if it can be determined that electromechanical action is how the structural viscosity develops). Still hopeful that Terry can make some unsalted BAM water ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 17:47:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k730ksoh020675; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:46:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k730kmDG020622; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:46:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:46:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tEbEoCRihPnuQPaLrRPifOiQmPl3I2SmwmsCHJ5xu8K/lzOx8eyFMHmjDXqGqUsKOeWBy50kP6asyNH3Sspg/BPvKpyXZejd7GB+I3xQtR+TSdaXKJiGSpL8hnWVA6NlxewSOWoqPM5H2h3UgwtHZND74RVY8LjpbuDikoTXcts= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 20:46:46 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Picture In-Reply-To: <01cf01c6b68e$b241b620$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <01a601c6b67f$87c4c7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <01cf01c6b68e$b241b620$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Still hopeful that Terry can make some unsalted BAM water ... It's still chargin'! BTW, Blanton distilleries make some premium bourbon: http://www.blantonsbourbon.com But don't snipe at that: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/highway.shootings.ap/index.html (He looks like my cousin Jimmy.) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 21:40:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k734e2ih020541; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:40:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k734bbBG019480; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:37:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:37:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:37:01 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4 4ax.com> References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:37:01 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k734b19I019258 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:07:41 -0400: Hi Terry, [snip] >There are 16 plates and no electrolysis was anticipated. Also, Jones >had recommended an even lower voltage. The goal was to "charge" the >water, not make gas. Then perhaps you should simply disconnect the anode completely. > >Besides, gas is forming on the surface of the teflon between the anode >and the opposing insulated side of the pan. This is something other >than electrolysis . . . something I don't understand. Perhaps it's just dissolved gas in the water forming a bubble at the site of a "dislocation" in the surface of the Teflon. Perhaps it got scratched somewhat when you put the assembly in the tray? A simple test might be to make a deliberate scratch somewhere, and see if it collects bubbles. Is the tray itself plastic all the way through, or just a plastic coating on metal? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 01:16:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k738Fu7W025354; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 01:15:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k738FsAu025342; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 01:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 01:15:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water From: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk Reply-to: patrick vbpl.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Sender-IP-Address: 195.92.67.72 X-Mailer: Nameko 0.10.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 09:15:45 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Terry wrote: > We will start with his oldest vehicle which he can no longer > depreciate. He knows the risks. The rewards far outweigh his risk. > Even a 10% improvement pays back in a little over a year. > > I mainly want to see if there's any difference due to "charging". Terry/Jones (no Python jokes, please ;-), I know that I caused some confusion earlier by not explicitly mentioning the effects of multiple 'neutral' plates, but now I'm confused... I thought that you were both looking at some basic experimental work, to investigate the possibility of 100% gas-free ICE running (the putative 'waterfuel'). Is this not the case? If not, and you're (Terry) looking to create a hydroxy booster setup, then there's some well established techniques/cell designs that you could use - see the Y! hydroxy group. It would be handy to know which way you're both going, so that any observations that I or others might offer will be pertinent to your aims. Cheers, Patrick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 03:57:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73AvKQH032763; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 03:57:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73AvGfP032714; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 03:57:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 03:57:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HMV1fXBY0w6z/3j4tSRm5fGztpsggHhNCFQ75y4Lwm88tcgaRALvuV9YxAxL4TD7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200684310574496 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:57:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b44119f1d2b697bd2c249663fadb45a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.104 Resent-Message-ID: <6KD_WB.A.C_H.Mad0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >From digging through some ancient literature on the behavior of water: 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". My Conclusion FWIW: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

From digging through some ancient literature on the behavior of water:
 
1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
 
2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
     in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
     2 H2O -----> H3O+ +  OH- ".
3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
 
4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH-  and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
 
My Conclusion FWIW:
 
The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)
that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization"
and Hydration of the water.
 
Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into
a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about
750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 04:33:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73BXkGp017218; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:33:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73BXiwn017192; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:33:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:33:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n7wF8WtlZz0qhYThOfLEjNNYDnRiOekJVpKE76lfQFgSGzNEx7lpBCQrCkzOApZJ4P7KChOQVW26UAfpnzbuQjYxzYpi6pJQtEHgGq+yiP9KFk6ac50w5zvbAvZLzDy8Bb/uiK4v8xi9+dv5okzxAalV2RMLmyWCJornXWJY/TY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:33:44 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion In-Reply-To: <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/3/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Perhaps it's just dissolved gas in the water forming a bubble at > the site of a "dislocation" in the surface of the Teflon. Perhaps > it got scratched somewhat when you put the assembly in the tray? In which case they would form in rows. They seem to be randomly distributed in a limited area. > A simple test might be to make a deliberate scratch somewhere, and > see if it collects bubbles. Is the tray itself plastic all the way > through, or just a plastic coating on metal? Coated aluminum. Obviously some kind of capacitive field effect which only applies to the positive anode and a neutral metal with a interceding dielectric. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 04:39:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73Bdc4e020035; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:39:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73Bdbto020021; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:39:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:39:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:thread-index:X-MimeOLE; b=PmIZmQ1KIJNh2id4PVwZWdeYuWEkhD/ZtIz77cLz+zC+7t40oMsYjHcNpGvo8u371AzQ7X23d8Kf3B/94IIyieKITJm3TW0YGIWhqMdAg50ICvjOfnNuXfzl6aL/Kid9WhGfPE3/MiGiX1pElZ8OUg1XTnJjRFUzhuZnTdsbHg4= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:39:33 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c6b6f1$7edcc910$0904a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6B6F9.E0A13110" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: Aca28XuSWAkA/HRTSfeRkWVSMh0q5w== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Accelerated, cold, nuclear reactions Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6B6F9.E0A13110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Vortex, Funny old world. >From the PhysicsWeb website: http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/10/7/13/1 Regards, Remi. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6B6F9.E0A13110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Vortex,

Funny old world…

 

From the PhysicsWeb website: http://physicsweb.= org/articles/news/10/7/13/1

 

 

Regards,

Remi.

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C6B6F9.E0A13110-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 04:41:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73BfNhR020652; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:41:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73BfLWW020633; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:41:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=X2Mk7ceB5ls9DZgOLPo/H3wxQvWDV1hopPggRPuaZLRG5/g3wgGWM0u5qH9Pv9UubllG1hMDV0fxaB/x4EzS+SCcIbBfiReZEDTuGObqUB+4EQ6jUrmUYPmXGj//FP94qujhh45sjDmSjX/wFVJCTFq5OL1j5X7zDTtKfl9orsw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:41:21 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water In-Reply-To: <410-2200684310574496 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200684310574496 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/3/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis > levels) > that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic > "Pseudo-Autoionization" > and Hydration of the water. Okay, that's about what I was thinkin'. Now, a question. Can this 'polywater' be stored for a significant length of time without losing those fine qualities? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 05:16:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73CGSmd004700; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 05:16:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73CGPWV004673; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 05:16:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 05:16:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lbbWHRnmSu2HbhEbZJ2a18PcRbH6chRkbGGxoyEbm/ZKaffTn0skYgDAlT+AmnNQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200684312169944 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 06:16:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94044cce9dce52ff40bababed243136ef2a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.214 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote. > > On 8/3/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis > > levels) > > that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic > > "Pseudo-Autoionization" > > and Hydration of the water. > > Okay, that's about what I was thinkin'. Now, a question. Can this > 'polywater' be stored for a significant length of time without losing > those fine qualities? > Since it's most likely that the Hydration "Shells" around the ions require high temperatures to evaporate them to free up the ions so that they can recombine to form H2O (steam) I would guess that they should be stable for a long time at temperatures below the boiling point of "water". Freezing temperatures could be interesting, too. BTW. the links to your pictures for posterity: Some Pictures of stacked plate distilled water activation experiments in progress. http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Tiny_Bubbles.jpg http://geocities.com/terry1094/wtrchg.jpg www.thejoecell.com Fred > > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 08:28:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73FSUSZ024393; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:28:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73FSMCq024282; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:28:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:28:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c6b711$70230c70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-2200684310574496 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:28:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01C6B6D6.C307C240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C6B6D6.C307C240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred,=20 Let me add a couple of things (at the end) to you fine analysis of the = overall situation, which you may not agree with, but everyone is looking = at this from a slightly different POV: 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen = atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl = and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in = the Polymers " 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters" Conclusion: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below = electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates = exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water.=20 [PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long = pretreatment process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into = an active species] Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is = "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.=20 [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6] The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE = releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed.=20 [The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are = brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive = increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for = a short time, tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating = that only between 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the = structural changes which promote this effect.] The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process = whereby the active component is being continuously manufacutred, = separated and electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a = closed circuit fashion to an ongoing treatement process (mini-factory). = Ultimately you would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that = less is needed to be carried. Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a = multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel - = the ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential = pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell of = around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically = biased, and with small pumps being used to recirculate the water in a = vortex fashion, staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and = then back again. The idea is that the active component in enriched, = sent to the electrolyzer continuously, and once there it is gasified = immediately at at a very high Faradaic efficienty in the electrolyzer, = and the 95% inactive remainder goes back to repeat the process. Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per cell, = including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being = massively efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil = fuel.=20 One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually consume more = water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to a = mini-factory.=20 The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and zero = fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this = technique. Whatever they are doing must involve something else. However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, maybe = even more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water = for electrolysis (the present hydro-booster).=20 The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile interim = step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which = can eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as = first envisioned, however.=20 We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from their = 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize ! My prediction is that you = will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate = incentive is provided. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C6B6D6.C307C240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
Let me add a couple of things (at the = end) to you=20 fine analysis of the overall situation, which you may not agree with, = but=20 everyone is looking at this from a slightly different POV:

1, "Water tends to form small = "NanoPolymers", x=20 H2O -----> (H2O)x"

2, " The attraction for the proton of a = molecule by=20 a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some = formation=20 of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
2 H2O -----> = H3O+=20 +  OH- ".

3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are = additive=20 in the Polymers "

4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- =20 and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters"

Conclusion:

The = "Activation"=20 step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that = aligns=20 the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic=20 "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water.
 
[PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long = pretreatment=20 process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into an active = species]

Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of = the water=20 is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
[For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below = 6]

The=20 Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE = releasing=20 about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
 
[The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are = brought=20 about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive = increase in=20 the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short = time,=20 tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating that only = between=20 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the structural changes which = promote=20 this effect.]
 
The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process = whereby=20 the active component is being continuously manufacutred, separated = and=20 electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit = fashion=20 to an ongoing treatement process (mini-factory). Ultimately you would = want to=20 condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be=20 carried.
 
Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a = multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel = - the=20 ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential = pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell = of=20 around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically = biased, and=20 with small pumps being used to recirculate the water in a vortex = fashion,=20 staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and then back = again. =20 The idea is that the active component in enriched, sent to the = electrolyzer=20 continuously, and once there it is gasified immediately at at a very = high=20 Faradaic efficienty in the electrolyzer, and the 95% inactive = remainder=20 goes back to repeat the process.
 
Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per = cell,=20 including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being = massively=20 efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil fuel. =
 
One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually = consume=20 more water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to = a=20 mini-factory.
 
The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and = zero=20 fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this = technique.=20 Whatever they are doing must involve something else.
 
However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, = maybe even=20 more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water = for=20 electrolysis (the present hydro-booster).
 
The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile = interim=20 step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which = can=20 eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as = first=20 envisioned, however.
 
We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from = their=20 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize !  My prediction is = that you=20 will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate = incentive is=20 provided.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C6B6D6.C307C240-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 08:50:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73FnpG1004926; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:49:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73FnmXo004871; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ni35ui2IzjUBdLsSS178RYEDfOelpmHSaVqJBIDz4p3FlutT8wiO7lCCnBhMVLJQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22006843154933634 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:49:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406a82d2003cf49635b3470d0719819aa5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.250 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I'll buy that, Jones. The slight lowering of pH could be due to dissolved CO2 and other atmospheric acidic gases, NOx & SO2 etc. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 8/3/2006 9:29:33 AM Subject: [Vo]: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Fred, Let me add a couple of things (at the end) to you fine analysis of the overall situation, which you may not agree with, but everyone is looking at this from a slightly different POV: 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers " 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters" Conclusion: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. [PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long pretreatment process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into an active species] Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6] The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. [The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time, tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating that only between 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the structural changes which promote this effect.] The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process whereby the active component is being continuously manufactured, separated and electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit fashion to an ongoing treatment process (mini-factory). Ultimately you would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be carried. Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel - the ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell of around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically biased, and with small pumps being used to re-circulate the water in a vortex fashion, staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and then back again. The idea is that the active component in enriched, sent to the electrolyzer continuously, and once there it is gasified immediately at at a very high Faradaic efficiency in the electrolyzer, and the 95% inactive remainder goes back to repeat the process. Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per cell, including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being massively efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil fuel. One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually consume more water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to a mini-factory. The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and zero fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this technique. Whatever they are doing must involve something else. However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, maybe even more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water for electrolysis (the present hydro-booster). The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile interim step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which can eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as first envisioned, however. We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from their 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize ! My prediction is that you will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate incentive is provided. Jones ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/3/2006 9:29:33 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water

Fred,
Let me add a couple of things (at the end) to you fine analysis of the overall situation, which you may not agree with, but everyone is looking at this from a slightly different POV:

1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"

2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
2 H2O -----> H3O+ +  OH- ".

3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers "

4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH-  and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters"

Conclusion:

The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water.
 
[PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long pretreatment process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into an active species]

Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
[For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6]

The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
 
[The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time, tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating that only between 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the structural changes which promote this effect.]
 
The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process whereby the active component is being continuously manufactured, separated and electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit fashion to an ongoing treatment process (mini-factory). Ultimately you would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be carried.
 
Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel - the ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell of around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically biased, and with small pumps being used to re-circulate the water in a vortex fashion, staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and then back again.  The idea is that the active component in enriched, sent to the electrolyzer continuously, and once there it is gasified immediately at at a very high Faradaic efficiency in the electrolyzer, and the 95% inactive remainder goes back to repeat the process.
 
Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per cell, including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being massively efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil fuel.
 
One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually consume more water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to a mini-factory.
 
The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and zero fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this technique. Whatever they are doing must involve something else.
 
However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, maybe even more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water for electrolysis (the present hydro-booster).
 
The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile interim step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which can eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as first envisioned, however.
 
We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from their 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize !  My prediction is that you will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate incentive is provided.
 
Jones
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 08:55:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73Ft9cl008431; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:55:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73Ft4qJ008319; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:55:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:55:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CC+blTxLdWcp0oJTHjWighMxaBLY+UkeyjWBPr4b49VXuVLU0h/r6MYs5/SWbv9g9XAEQzS2N4A9a7/T3NBKWb+k584BFbacAl52qPh4BXJfVpPUxaIJEeS00fpBUAOCLDWvSBIzjZjZid/0n2zAjmRtWpLxAj17z12Gjg56re4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:54:48 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <003c01c6b711$70230c70$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200684310574496 earthlink.net> <003c01c6b711$70230c70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <47t4j.A.yBC.Uxh0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/3/06, Jones Beene wrote: > The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process whereby > the active component is being continuously manufacutred, separated and > electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit > fashion to an ongoing treatement process (mini-factory). Ultimately you > would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be > carried. An alternative would be to microfilter the active component out of the charged water. Any idea how big that soccer ball would be? Terry (envisioning a scene from Andromeda Strain where they determine the size of the antagonist) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 09:11:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73GAG2U017384; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:10:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73GAE7u017362; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:10:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:10:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=VSie/7Qo0y51pd7fDI0TDDp1pWWfSikPp32MUo+bnJnvv46bGKVd2aAvEe/az0Q8TBpL6opzcDXO+LEa7EkGOiqYYoDzr2HPOS8mHvzOCDY0Z5Uo06UmX4fKn6MOLHZly0qCRNqiDoH7MY5O4k2q7Pcou2HuCCzly3KR3kTfWhE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:10:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <8AePlB.A.FPE.m_h0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Goldes Patent App Status: O X-Status: . . . is posted on his site: http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/mpi-patentapplication.pdf Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 09:26:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73GQJfF026877; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:26:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73GQHv0026856; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:26:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:26:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c6b719$887ce630$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <411-22006843154933634 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:26:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k73GQFBc026824 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Status: RO X-Status: Hi Fred and Jones, You wrote: "The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time..." Have you compared the energy expended in the pretreatment to that which can be retrieved from the excess gas? If they are equal some form of storage of electrolyzed gases (dissolved, nanobubbles?) could be at play. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water > I'll buy that, Jones. > > The slight lowering of pH could be due to dissolved CO2 and other > atmospheric acidic gases, NOx & SO2 etc. > > Fred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: 8/3/2006 9:29:33 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water > > > Fred, > > Let me add a couple of things (at the end) to you fine analysis of the overall situation, which you may not agree with, but everyone is looking at this from a slightly different POV: > > 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" > > 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions > 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". > > 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers " > > 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters" > > Conclusion: > > The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. > > [PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long pretreatment process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into an active species] > > Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. > > [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6] > > The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. > > [The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time, tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating that only between 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the structural changes which promote this effect.] > > The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process whereby the active component is being continuously manufactured, separated and electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit fashion to an ongoing treatment process (mini-factory). Ultimately you would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be carried. > > Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel - the ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell of around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically biased, and with small pumps being used to re-circulate the water in a vortex fashion, staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and then back again. The idea is that the active component in enriched, sent to the electrolyzer continuously, and once there it is gasified immediately at at a very high Faradaic efficiency in the electrolyzer, and the 95% inactive remainder goes back to repeat the process. > > Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per cell, including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being massively efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil fuel. > > One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually consume more water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to a mini-factory. > > The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and zero fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this technique. Whatever they are doing must involve something else. > > However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, maybe even more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water for electrolysis (the present hydro-booster). > > The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile interim step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which can eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as first envisioned, however. > > We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from their 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize ! My prediction is that you will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate incentive is provided. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 09:28:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73GSEMZ028054; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:28:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73GSB3Y028021; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:28:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:28:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dg9XjuBuHzC9DHa+jcCe1CEVTOfri9bE1EhHe9AYEMWpS78wuxwGsV8HlMIso7+j; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006843162744632 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Michel Jullian" , "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:27:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940903a228dee88154114cb4e344d80aa12350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Status: O X-Status: Forwarded without comment to the Vortex List. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 8/3/2006 2:21:43 PM > Subject: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water > > Hi Fred and Jones, > > You wrote: "The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time..." > > Have you compared the energy expended in the pretreatment to that which can be retrieved from the excess gas? If they are equal some form of storage of electrolyzed gases (dissolved, nanobubbles?) could be at play. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water > > > > I'll buy that, Jones. > > > > The slight lowering of pH could be due to dissolved CO2 and other > > atmospheric acidic gases, NOx & SO2 etc. > > > > Fred > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jones Beene > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Sent: 8/3/2006 9:29:33 AM > > Subject: [Vo]: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water > > > > > > Fred, > > > > Let me add a couple of things (at the end) to you fine analysis of the overall situation, which you may not agree with, but everyone is looking at this from a slightly different POV: > > > > 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" > > > > 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions > > 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". > > > > 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers " > > > > 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters" > > > > Conclusion: > > > > The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. > > > > [PLUS - an imposed kinetic movement of the water during a long pretreatment process will accelerate the structural change of H2O into an active species] > > > > Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. > > > > [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6] > > > > The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. > > > > [The main practical advantage of the structural changes which are brought about by the long pretreatment process seems to be in a massive increase in the gas created during normal electrolysis. This occurs for a short time, tapers-off, and then reverts to normal water, indicating that only between 5 and 10 percent of the water has undergone the structural changes which promote this effect.] > > > > The challenge for the future would be to create and ongoing process whereby the active component is being continuously manufactured, separated and electrolyzed, and the non-active water is returned in a closed circuit fashion to an ongoing treatment process (mini-factory). Ultimately you would want to condense water out of the exhaust so that less is needed to be carried. > > > > Extrapolating from the results of a single cell, a small ICE with a multi-plate electrolyzer (hydro-booster) - and preferably a biodiesel - the ultimate process could involve as many as twenty or more sequential pretreatment stages, each of which is an identical low voltage cell of around two liters capacity each, and each of which is magnetically biased, and with small pumps being used to re-circulate the water in a vortex fashion, staging from cell to cell, then to the electrolyzer and then back again. The idea is that the active component in enriched, sent to the electrolyzer continuously, and once there it is gasified immediately at at a very high Faradaic efficiency in the electrolyzer, and the 95% inactive remainder goes back to repeat the process. > > > > Since the complex system would be drawing only a few watts per cell, including the pumping, the total system is still capable of being massively efficient, in terms of reducing the net consumption of fossil fuel. > > > > One downside is that it would be very bulky, and actually consume more water than fossil fuel - and two tanks are required in addition to a mini-factory. > > > > The prospect of using *only* pretreated water (the JC claim) and zero fossil fuel seems to be almost non-existent at this time, using this technique. Whatever they are doing must involve something else. > > > > However, gasoline mileage could be as much as double using this, maybe even more - compared with a 20-30% improvement using only regular water for electrolysis (the present hydro-booster). > > > > The bottom line is that this appears to be a very worthwhile interim step - a short term solution, until something better comes along which can eliminate fossil fuel altogether. It is far from being as simple as first envisioned, however. > > > > We can only hope that this "do nothing" Congress gets back from their 8-week vacation soon and passes the H-prize ! My prediction is that you will see many advances coming out of the wood-work if an adequate incentive is provided. > > > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 09:41:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73Ge3fK002511; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:40:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73GYc7x031914; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:34:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200608031634.k73GYW3X079094 mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 11:34:32 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goldes Patent App Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a9f934ee718c70d476a9074676f3ff82" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_a9f934ee718c70d476a9074676f3ff82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > . . . is posted on his site: > > http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/mpi-patentapplication.pdf > > Terry > Someone dropped a brief note about the MPI patent over in the Hydrino Discussion group a couple of days ago, perhaps naively assuming it would immediately create a swell of unexpected surprise and interest in MPI's on-going work. Predictably, most of the comments were dismissive. Nevertheless, I would be curious if anyone would care to comment on Willie Wong's skeptical critiques as they seemed to contain a tad more substance in them, even though it is blatently obvious that Willie doesn't give much stock in MPI's theoretical claims either. I would be curious to read what the the mad scientists in this group might have to say. See Hydrino message 11837 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hydrino/message/11837 The entire discussion thread is: "Forget the BLP heater" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks --=_a9f934ee718c70d476a9074676f3ff82 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > . . . is posted on his site:
>
> http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/mpi-patentapplication.pdf
>
> Terry
>

Someone dropped a brief note about the MPI patent over in the Hydrino Discu= ssion group a couple of days ago, perhaps naively assuming it would immedia= tely create a swell of unexpected surprise and interest in MPI's on-going w= ork. Predictably, most of the comments were dismissive.

Nevertheless, I would be curious if anyone would care to comment on Willie = Wong's skeptical critiques as they seemed to contain a tad more substance i= n them, even though it is blatently obvious that Willie doesn't give much s= tock in MPI's theoretical claims either.

I would be curious to read what the the mad scientists in this group might = have to say.

See Hydrino message 11837

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hydrino/message/11837

The entire discussion thread is: "Forget the BLP heater"

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
--=_a9f934ee718c70d476a9074676f3ff82-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 10:10:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73H9VsO023008; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:09:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73H9UfD022990; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:09:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:09:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AQKM+9snqJrSSAeJOW7Ejk7VtveNOdTK9f5GXQcE/4ZUJHG3YgpFArxCOfS5tsLW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200684317859511 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:08:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940944ba4717e1df2171749e505a21537cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: O.T. Unactivated Water For Sale Free Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A once a century deluge came through the culverts of Interstate 25, an irrigation canal-levee, through the culvert of the Burlington Northern railroad mainline to San Francisco, and over a large irrigation canal plus 4 acres of pastureland,and deposited about 4 inches of muddy (un-activated water?) in the ~ 1800 square foot basement (~4,500 gallons) of our pastoral country home, messing up about 900 ft^2 of carpet and the showing by the realtor. There will be a septic tank truck (2,000 + gal capacity) pumping it out tomorrow and a crew with brooms, squeegees and (Wet-Vacs?) doing the clean-up chore. The water is free (plus Shipping and Handling) if anyone wants some for their Joe Cell experiments. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A  once a century deluge came through the culverts of Interstate 25,
an irrigation canal-levee, through the culvert of the Burlington Northern
railroad mainline to San Francisco, and over a large irrigation
canal plus 4 acres of pastureland,and deposited about 4 inches of muddy (un-activated water?)
in the ~ 1800 square foot basement  (~4,500 gallons) of our pastoral country
home, messing up about 900 ft^2 of carpet and the showing by the realtor.
 
There will be a septic tank truck (2,000 + gal capacity) pumping it out tomorrow
and a crew with brooms, squeegees and (Wet-Vacs?) doing the clean-up chore.
 
The water is free (plus Shipping and Handling) if anyone wants some
for their Joe Cell experiments. 
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 10:57:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73HnGjw013991; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:49:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73HnA1o013904; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:49:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200608031749.k73Hn3o4083406 mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:49:02 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_847b457e3afa1347e75c2c1e2ad10016" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <1IJ5hD.A.0YD.Scj0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: American Antigravity: Kiril Chukanov TeslaTech 2006 Interview Status: O X-Status: --=_847b457e3afa1347e75c2c1e2ad10016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI: The American Antigravity Web site is advertising a new video that can be downloaded, an interview with Dr. Chukanov and his "next generation ZPE Generator." See: http://www.americanantigravity.com/ "After working in secret for the last year, Dr. Kiril Chukanov finally joins us to share the details of his latest achievement - a next-generation ZPE Generator that works by harnessing the power of stabilized ball-lightning plasmoids. In this exclusive TeslaTech 2006 interview, we discuss his research, funding, and the progress he's made in perfecting this remarkable new energy technology... " Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_847b457e3afa1347e75c2c1e2ad10016 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI:

The American Antigravity Web site is advertising a new video that can be do= wnloaded, an interview with Dr. Chukanov and his "next generation ZPE Gener= ator."

See: http://www.americanantigravity.com/

"After working in secret for the last year, Dr. Kiril Chukanov finally join= s us to share the details of his latest achievement - a next-generation ZPE= Generator that works by harnessing the power of stabilized ball-lightning = plasmoids. In this exclusive TeslaTech 2006 interview, we discuss his resea= rch, funding, and the progress he's made in perfecting this remarkable new = energy technology... "


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_847b457e3afa1347e75c2c1e2ad10016-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 12:20:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k73JK3vL005260; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:20:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k73JAiuW032181; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:10:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:10:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b001c6b730$7cf4d090$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Michel Jullian" , "vortex-l" References: <410-22006843162744632 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:10:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Status: O X-Status: >> Have you compared the energy expended in the pretreatment to >> that which can be retrieved from the excess gas? If they are >> equal some form of storage of electrolyzed gases (dissolved, >> nanobubbles?) could be at play. >> Michel Working on a formal documentation effort now. So little energy is being used in pretreatment that there must be significant net benefit, but proving that to the satisfaction of all concerned will not be easy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 22:10:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k745A30G018979; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:10:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7456alM017372; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:06:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:06:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D2D5E2.80703 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 00:06:42 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: O.T. Unactivated Water For Sale Free References: <410-2200684317859511 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200684317859511 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > The water is free (plus Shipping and Handling) if anyone wants some > for their Joe Cell experiments. As I read the Joe Cell paper, the best source of water is an artesian well. My friend gets the water in his office from one. On drinking it I noticed that it induced a flow in my lymphatic system, which I associate with a positive thing for my body. What this means, IMHO, there is good Chi in artesian well water, something that I've been meaning to share with the group. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 22:56:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k745tjGq005996; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:55:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k745thSp005968; Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:55:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:55:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Hydrogen boosting Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 00:55:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00dd01c6b65c$54b851d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This cynic says product liability laws. -j -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:52 PM To: vortex Subject: [Vo]: Hydrogen boosting [snip] The cynic might say lax laws regarding stock manipulation, is another factor. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 02:22:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k749KHPP017800; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:21:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k749J09R016724; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:19:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:19:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ExOJ994R9KGrl2jWMthOkNauym7t5NBhVH2Yz1Qy59+KVc2dPJ9MX4/cj8VLcmBD; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200685491821722 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 03:18:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94065b1a324c345ffc86b830096df9fb937350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones wrote. > > [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6] > >From Nebergall-Schmidt-Holtzclaw; General Chemistry 2nd Edition 1963: " Water in equilibrium with air contains 0.030 volume per cent of carbon dioxide. The resulting carbonic acid H2CO3 gives the solution a hydrogen ion concentration about twenty times that of pure water, or 2 x 10^-6 as compared to 1.0 x 10^-7. The pH of the solution is calculated as follows:" pH = - log [H+] = - log (2.0 x 10^-6) = - (log 2.0 + log 10^-6) = - (0.3 - 6.0) = - (- 5.7) = 5.7 "Thus we see that water in contact with air is acidic, rather than neutral, due to dissolved carbon dioxide." Since the 1963 publishing date for this 791 page book, the atmospheric CO2, NOx , and SO2 has increased, and so has the use of Exhaust Gas Recycle on ICEs, which could account for the higher current for an operating on-board Joe Cell. BTW, I just bought this mint condition used 2nd edition copy through http://www.biblio.com/ for $10.00 + $5.50 S&H (expedited) because my 1st edition that prepared me for acing upper-level university courses, way back, wore out, but, I might have it bronzed along with my ancient Hp 11C calculator, if it ever wears out. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones wrote.
>
> [For whatever reason, I am seeing a slight acidity pH below 6]
>
From Nebergall-Schmidt-Holtzclaw; General Chemistry 2nd Edition 1963:
 
" Water in equilibrium with air contains 0.030 volume per cent of
carbon dioxide. The resulting carbonic acid H2CO3 gives the solution
a hydrogen ion concentration about  twenty times that of pure water, or
2 x 10^-6 as compared to 1.0 x 10^-7. The pH of the solution is calculated
as follows:"
 
pH = - log [H+] = - log (2.0 x 10^-6) = - (log 2.0 + log 10^-6)
 
= - (0.3 - 6.0) = - (- 5.7) = 5.7
 
"Thus we see that water in contact with air is acidic, rather than neutral,
due to dissolved carbon dioxide."
 
Since the 1963 publishing date for this 791 page book, the atmospheric CO2,
NOx , and SO2 has increased, and so has the use of Exhaust Gas Recycle on ICEs,
which could account for the higher current for an operating on-board Joe Cell.
 
BTW, I just bought this mint condition used 2nd edition copy through
 
 
for $10.00 + $5.50 S&H (expedited)  because my 1st edition  that prepared me for
acing upper-level university courses, way back, wore out, but, I might
have it bronzed along with my ancient Hp 11C calculator, if it ever wears out.  :-)
 
Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 06:44:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74Dhi6a002315; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 06:43:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74DheOg002232; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 06:43:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 06:43:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=OFY4Q3MTOR18UCJDZ3KskQ4bvZKFXxQiIm5232cAJhSqJTIpE2YfsZGZVaKUoaaN/2Cvovd4UZLgbGqt1fnDPxfcVU/aA7GaqGW/DAIqgus/K8wOxnWm7w0Q+stSTqpyO8rO9r6eUu4n9BRLGSsl3HzMaisSXD1YVgzeuxraYJc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 09:43:38 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Status: RO X-Status: US 7,053,576 "Abstract This invention relates to apparatus for the conversion of massfree energy into electrical or kinetic energy, which uses in its preferred form a transmitter and a receiver both incorporating Tesla coils, the distal ends of whose secondary windings are co-resonant and connected to plates of a chamber, preferably evacuated or filled with water, such that energy radiated by the transmitter may be picked up by the receiver, the receiver preferably further including a pulsed plasma reactor driven by the receiver coil and a split phase motor driven by the reactor. Preferably the reactor operates in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode, and the motor is an inertially damped drag motor. The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn used to drive an inertially damped drag motor." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 12:34:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74JYFGI018192; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74JYAmb018129; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e901c6b7fc$ede04f60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:33:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydrophobia in NM Status: O X-Status: Interesting results re: hydrophobic surfaces from Fred's old stomping grounds... http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2006/snap.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 13:16:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74KFubo011472; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:15:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74KFtPN011451; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:15:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:15:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c6b802$c0f0cdd0$3f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Hydrophobia in New Mexico Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:15:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote..=20 Interesting results re: hydrophobic surfaces from Fred's old=20 stomping grounds... http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2006/snap.html=20 Fascinating, the formation of vortex shapes.=20 Spit on a dry very hot cast iron skillet and the liquid "bounces and = dances" without evaporating. Or , the strange accounts of natives dancers in the South Pacific = walking across hot rocks without injury.. hmm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
 
Interesting results re: hydrophobic surfaces from Fred's old =
stomping=20 grounds...

htt= p://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2006/snap.html=20

Fascinating, the formation of vortex shapes.

Spit on a dry very hot cast iron skillet and the liquid "bounces and = dances"=20 without evaporating.

Or , the strange accounts of natives dancers in the South Pacific = walking=20 across hot rocks without injury.. hmm

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c6b802$bfd94350$3f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C6B7D8.D71A1EB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 16:29:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74NTHCH027485; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:29:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74NTFf5027466; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:29:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:29:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:29:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 4 Aug 2006 23:29:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k74NT9jG027409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:33:44 -0400: Hi, Could there be microscopic holes in the plastic allowing the water to make contact with the underlying Al? Is there an AC ripple on your power supply (or are you using a battery)? Is there a ground connection to the Al tray? >On 8/3/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Perhaps it's just dissolved gas in the water forming a bubble at >> the site of a "dislocation" in the surface of the Teflon. Perhaps >> it got scratched somewhat when you put the assembly in the tray? > >In which case they would form in rows. They seem to be randomly >distributed in a limited area. > >> A simple test might be to make a deliberate scratch somewhere, and >> see if it collects bubbles. Is the tray itself plastic all the way >> through, or just a plastic coating on metal? > >Coated aluminum. Obviously some kind of capacitive field effect which >only applies to the positive anode and a neutral metal with a >interceding dielectric. > >Terry Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 16:40:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74Ne3W5000705; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:40:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74NVRKP028934; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:31:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:31:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 09:31:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 4 Aug 2006 23:31:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k74NVLEx028856 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:33:44 -0400: Hi, [snip] Perhaps some ions from the anode are going into solution where they displace dissolved gasses which then accumulate on the nearby plastic surface? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 17:21:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k750Km9s020667; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 17:20:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k750Kk6A020644; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 17:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 17:20:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:20:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9lo7d21se89nr3nmf80h5bnt5333g59u5s 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.24] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 5 Aug 2006 00:20:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k750Kb0K020564 Resent-Message-ID: <9tOjuC.A.YCF.dR-0EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Willis Jenkin's message of Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:34:36 -0700: Hi, [snip] >I must say that when you do not see gas being evolved that you are working >closer to strickly ohmic conduction versus ionic. Also you will not be able >to stop gas once you exceed as Robin stated ~ 1.2V. Although some in the >field have evolved gas below this level with the proper supply (pulsed DC). If a simple voltmeter on the DC scale is being used to measure the voltage, then it's not likely to be registering the peak voltage in a pulsed setup, so while it might appear that lower pulsed voltages result in gas formation, it's possible that the gas is actually only being produced during the actual peak of the pulse, where it exceeds ~ 1.2 V. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 12:51:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k74JoiB2027562; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:50:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k74JofjI027536; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:50:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:50:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=qc697ocDil/VQRL2+Jdg1k5Z4JlDK3OGsl1r1HDZN8nH2PzsNb7zXBqHhZTRg9vYAOXJg56XXpbjdVA/xdoO1DQ0m00p5iRahLSWYrnipwbSivOvPWfk5lGy/gg0DNRoMf8peAU8mjENVvR+SDGn/Y+Jci+zswUqoKk5B7PzHlQ= ; Message-ID: <30fd01c6b7ff$3fc7f3d0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: "Jones Beene" , "Grimer" , "Frederick Sparber" , "Nick Reiter" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:50:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_30FA_01C6B7DD.B8489DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_30FA_01C6B7DD.B8489DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Vo, You may be interested in this reference to a gravitational mass change = that occurs during a phase change from liquid to solid.- ( a possible = relationship between latent heat and gravitational energy?) My overall = impression from reading on this subject for a bit is that the greatest = gravitational changes probably occur when there is a sublimation phase = change from solid to gas or a change to a plasma.=20 Water vapor <=3D> water liquid <=3D> ice, should show this effect to a = degree. I first read reports of this regarding some experiments in a book = purchased from an antiquarian bookstore in Toronto. "SOME UNRECOGNIZED LAWS OF NATURE" (483 pages) "An Inquiry into the causes of physical phenomena with special reference = to gravitation" by Ignatius Singer and Lewis H. Berens. 1897- London - pub: John Murray, Albemarle Street. Oxford. Horace Hart, Printer to the University. Note also in this Link to the Niels Bohr Library that in the same year = it was also published in NY by D. Appleton and Co, 511 pages:=20 http://libserv.aip.org:81/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=3Dfull=3D3100001~!14962~!0&= profile=3Dnewcustom-aipnbl#focus (NY publication was longer by 28 pages. ) Chapter V -- Gravity (pages 373 to 394) QUOTES: (p. 383.) [...] Still more definite are the results of the following = experiment. A supersaturated solution of sodium hyposulphite was = obtained by dissolving three parts by weight of the salt in one part of = hot water, and allowing it to cool. The glass-stoppered flask was then = placed on the balance and weighed along with a small crystal of the same = salt. By now dropping the crystal into the solution, crystallization set = in ; and although the weight of solution, flask, and all, did not exceed = 60 grammes, and the difference of temperature before and after = crystallization was not more than 20 degrees C. (at the utmost), the = difference in weight amounted to 25 mgr. : whereas with a brass weight = of 100 grammes and a difference of temperature of over 80 degrees C. the = difference in weight was only 10 mgr. Whether this difference in weight = be attributed to ascending air currents or to expulsion of moisture from = the pores of the glass (?), these facts would remain unexplained. = Moreover, in the case of the heated brass weights equilibrium is = established in a comparatively short time, whereas in the case of the = hyposulphite it requires several hours."=20 (p. 386.) "2. That in the case of bodies weighed during or immediately after = crystallization ( as with a cold saturated solution of sodium = hyposulphite ) the loss in weight is considerably greater than with, = say, metals heated to a much higher temperature. =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Vorts,=20 one might obtain an interlibrary loan on this book. I once obtained a = loan up here in Canada from a US library directly to the Reference = library in Toronto on a book by William Sturgeon published in 1850. I = copied all pages of interest. This particular book might also be in = "reference library" circulation. =20 It was the authors' contention throughout the chapter on gravity that = gravitational mass can be modified by "excitation", and they give = references, plus their own experiments to prove that contention ; that = is, *any* kind of excitation- phase changes, vibration, etc. Best, Colin ------=_NextPart_000_30FA_01C6B7DD.B8489DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Vo,
 
You may be interested in this reference = to a=20 gravitational mass change that occurs during a phase change from liquid = to=20 solid.-  ( a possible relationship between latent heat and=20 gravitational energy?)  My overall impression from reading on = this=20 subject for a bit is that the greatest gravitational changes = probably occur=20 when there is a sublimation phase change from solid = to gas or a=20 change to a plasma.
 
Water vapor <=3D> water liquid=20 <=3D> ice, should show this effect to a=20 degree.
 
I first read reports of this regarding some=20 experiments in a book purchased from an antiquarian bookstore in=20 Toronto.
"SOME UNRECOGNIZED LAWS OF NATURE" (483=20 pages)
"An Inquiry into the causes of physical = phenomena with=20 special reference to gravitation"
 
by  Ignatius Singer and Lewis H. = Berens.
 
1897- London - pub: John Murray, Albemarle = Street. =20 Oxford.
 
Horace Hart, Printer to the = University.
 
Note also in this Link to the Niels = Bohr=20 Library that in the same year it was also published in NY by = D.=20 Appleton and Co, 511 pages:
http://libserv.aip.org:81/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=3Dfull=3D31000= 01~!14962~!0&profile=3Dnewcustom-aipnbl#focus
 
(NY publication was longer by 28 = pages.=20 )
 
Chapter V -- Gravity  (pages 373 to=20 394)
  QUOTES:
(p. 383.)  =20 [...]  Still more definite are the results of the following = experiment. A supersaturated solution of sodium hyposulphite was = obtained by=20 dissolving three parts by weight of the salt in one part of hot water, = and=20 allowing it to cool. The glass-stoppered flask was then placed on the=20 balance and weighed along with a small crystal of the same salt. By = now=20 dropping the crystal into the solution, crystallization set in ; and = although=20 the weight of solution, flask, and all, did not exceed 60 grammes, and = the=20 difference of temperature before and after crystallization was not more = than 20=20 degrees C. (at the utmost), the difference in weight amounted to 25 mgr. = :=20 whereas with a brass weight of 100 grammes and a difference of = temperature of=20 over 80 degrees C. the difference in weight was only 10 mgr. Whether = this=20 difference in weight be attributed to ascending air currents or to = expulsion of=20 moisture from the pores of the glass (?), these facts would remain = unexplained.=20 Moreover, in the case of the heated brass weights equilibrium is = established in=20 a comparatively short time, whereas in the case of the hyposulphite it = requires=20 several hours." 
 
 (p. 386.)
 "2.     That in the = case of=20 bodies weighed during or immediately after crystallization ( = as with a cold=20 saturated  solution of sodium hyposulphite ) the loss in weight is=20 considerably greater than with, say, metals heated to a much higher=20 temperature.
      
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 
Vorts,
one might obtain an interlibrary loan = on this=20 book. I once obtained a loan up here in Canada from a US library = directly to the=20 Reference library in Toronto on a book by William Sturgeon = published in=20 1850. I copied all pages of interest. This particular = book might=20 also be in "reference library" circulation. 
 
It was the authors' contention throughout = the chapter=20 on gravity that gravitational mass can be modified by "excitation", = and=20 they give references, plus their own experiments to prove that = contention ; that=20 is, *any* kind of excitation-  phase changes, =20 vibration, etc.
 
Best,
Colin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_30FA_01C6B7DD.B8489DE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 19:04:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7523g05003650; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:03:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7523cld003592; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:03:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:03:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nsyoX1cyo/9bA1IGWtxRMDCGUHudnVJrth9rRPyXqJYN2PDzjLHWgvfh+IApT9PaKmhTUyZzJCwFlDPf29bmDWUc2XxCHQaOPpDZP4KanUQwq3+mBeaEaVaJdMuMetrZorhIIx2bRJf8e4dCdmXQOqymaXNW/XlljQ69WjCXL2o= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:02:00 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Could there be microscopic holes in the plastic allowing the water > to make contact with the underlying Al? Porosity of the teflon is unknown. Conductivity is virtually zero. > Is there an AC ripple on your power supply (or are you using a > battery)? Yeah, about 22 mV ripple on a 9.15 V RMS supply. > Is there a ground connection to the Al tray? Floating on a formica surface. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 19:08:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7528H18007114; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:08:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7528EFw007076; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:08:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:08:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=EIXF/FIQ48S2YRH/ST/nvqHwesUv9i2ym7vpNez2Npd4DDyuqlwMXHb4IUrxX7ocLgXHlRcjyGNNgnF3KlNeL0wQEx8LSrA7cXrkOBPnWzBB3HuFrzg4+p/kZPzaB3SdJzcxZ4Zsdn02XefZza1xqIcMOc/QcxFt6Ww+eUVgPv0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:08:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Status: O X-Status: I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have results from phase II for the small engines. Phase II will be the same as the first with 16 plates and a 24 VDC source. The big difference is that I will be using a battery source instead of one with ripple. Suggestions? We start Sunday. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 19:23:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k752MbJY015193; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:22:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k752Mam0015170; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:22:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016d01c6b836$008c7e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:22:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >> Could there be microscopic holes in the plastic allowing the >> water >> to make contact with the underlying Al? > Porosity of the teflon is unknown. Conductivity is virtually > zero. A previously used (years) aluminum pot with a Teflon coating is quite conductive... ERGO age & usage must promote porosity, which is not obvious visually ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 19:24:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k752OY82016313; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:24:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k752OWh4016282; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:24:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:24:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.07,214,1151856000"; d="scan'208"; a="842117226:sNHT20731920" Message-ID: <44D40157.8060607 iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 12:24:23 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Running References: <8C88216A7E1D69D-174-F774 mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C88216A7E1D69D-174-F774 mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hohlrauml6d netscape.net wrote: > Trying again. It bounced on gmail: > > Well here's the setup: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG > > It's being fired by a wall wart rated at 6VDC which is actually > putting out 9VDC with considerable ripple. Probably just a xfmr and a > rect. Only the end plates are energized. The one facing the camera > is the anode. > > The container is a teflon coated bread pan confirmed to be fully > electrically insulated. It holds roughly 1/2 gal of water with the cell. Whats the metal under the Teflon. If there are field effects involved then induced currents in any metal can cause the effect to fail. Insulator on metal is not the same as a non metallic container. Also take a volt meter and check for charge and charge leakage in the unused wires. The plates are uncharged but will gain charge. If they do they become positive or negative capacitors. Are the ends of the unused wires from adjacent plates segregated? > > There was no current flow in the cell until I poured in the distilled > water and I immediately saw it rise to 0.8 mA. After 5 min. it was up > to 1.5 mA and seemed fairly steady. I'm keeping a log. > > I plan to charge the water for 1 week if I can keep the cats out of > it. There will be plenty available if Vorts want a sample. > > Terry > > PS Interesting note: After about 10 min., the only bubble formation > was on the anode near the base at the teflon. Aggregrated microbubbles? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 20:59:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k753xOTt032469; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:59:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k753xLIv032440; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:59:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:59:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=s+seWwPjx2bhYEViuV9FN4nsRLsqgQi6ute+MNrf5t2cRj41Tst5vHpzbvsd+8IX; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <380-2200686534858580 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.122.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:48:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d89917c28099897df0c02e27eaecccbb62c9b5e52464f59f68350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.78.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 4, 2006 Status: O X-Status: Forward from aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 8/4/2006 1:58:36 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 4, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Aug 06 Washington, DC 1. PLAN B: THIS WEEK THE FDA IS BEING RUN FROM CRAWFORD, TX. Timing is everything, but Senate Democrats aren't falling for that one again. On Monday, the day before confirmation hearings for Bush family friend Andrew von Eschenbach, the agency said it would meet with the maker of the emergency contraceptive, Plan B, to talk about over-the-counter sales. The FDA has only had a confirmed head for 18 months of the entire Bush Presidency, but Democrats want over-the-counter approval first. The FDA said its initial rejection was based on concern for the safety of young girls. It proposes limiting over-the-counter sales to 18 or older. You might think the "emergency" would be greater for the young, but opponents say it would encourage sexual activity. To insist that society rely on abstinence is to deny an instinct against which the gods themselves seem unable to contend. The entire history of mankind is testament to its inexorable power. 2. KANSAS: VOTERS DROWSE THROUGH ANOTHER PRIMARY ELECTION. Moderate Republicans took a 6-4 advantage over conservatives on the Kansas Board of Education. Evolution, of course, was the issue. In principle, evolutionists could increase that to 8-2 in November, but this is Kansas where the general election is just a formality. Whether this is more evidence of the "Dover effect" is not clear http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn021706.html , but don't count the intelligent design movement out. 3. BLEEP: WILLIAM TILLER AND "RAMTHA'S SCHOOL OF ENLIGHTENMENT." August is a slow month, and I promised last week to say a little about Ramtha and William Tiller. Ramtha is a 35,000 year-old spirit-warrior from Atlantis who showed up in JZ Knight's Tacoma, WA kitchen in 1977. She is his channel. I first learned of Ramtha a year ago from William Tiller, PhD, a physicist who was the expert witness for Pacific Health Center, Inc., charged by the State of Washington with violating consumer protection laws with a fraudulent medical diagnostic device. I agreed to be the expert witness for the State of Washington. Pacific Health lost. Tiller had been at Stanford before taking "early retirement," I think they call it. I was familiar with a 1994 medical device that Tiller said would protect computer users from the effects of EMF http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN94/wn052794.html . To my knowledge, no one who bought the device was ever harmed by EMF from their computer. Tiller says he has a high regard for the graduates of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment who produced Bleep. He said the movie doubled the sale of his books. 4. SPACE STATION: NASA THREATENS TO SHUT DOWN RESEARCH ON ISS. For a year, yesterday's Nature says, to save money. This is the "Washington Monument ploy." WN predicted a year ago that NASA would try it http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn031105.html , but there is no meaningful research on the ISS to shut down. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 21:01:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75418Zp001301; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:01:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75417r6001278; Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=arycOpg3dGmJ4uUhlygooF0FTiCbQbCxPNDR1Ry8hNJGmLA/WTOWNNDKp4YZ4NFu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <380-220068654116830 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.122.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:01:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d89917c28099897df0639842be158e8368350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.78.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [(VO) BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 4, 2006 Status: O X-Status: Forward from aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 8/4/2006 1:58:36 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 4, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Aug 06 Washington, DC 1. PLAN B: THIS WEEK THE FDA IS BEING RUN FROM CRAWFORD, TX. Timing is everything, but Senate Democrats aren't falling for that one again. On Monday, the day before confirmation hearings for Bush family friend Andrew von Eschenbach, the agency said it would meet with the maker of the emergency contraceptive, Plan B, to talk about over-the-counter sales. The FDA has only had a confirmed head for 18 months of the entire Bush Presidency, but Democrats want over-the-counter approval first. The FDA said its initial rejection was based on concern for the safety of young girls. It proposes limiting over-the-counter sales to 18 or older. You might think the "emergency" would be greater for the young, but opponents say it would encourage sexual activity. To insist that society rely on abstinence is to deny an instinct against which the gods themselves seem unable to contend. The entire history of mankind is testament to its inexorable power. 2. KANSAS: VOTERS DROWSE THROUGH ANOTHER PRIMARY ELECTION. Moderate Republicans took a 6-4 advantage over conservatives on the Kansas Board of Education. Evolution, of course, was the issue. In principle, evolutionists could increase that to 8-2 in November, but this is Kansas where the general election is just a formality. Whether this is more evidence of the "Dover effect" is not clear http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn021706.html , but don't count the intelligent design movement out. 3. BLEEP: WILLIAM TILLER AND "RAMTHA'S SCHOOL OF ENLIGHTENMENT." August is a slow month, and I promised last week to say a little about Ramtha and William Tiller. Ramtha is a 35,000 year-old spirit-warrior from Atlantis who showed up in JZ Knight's Tacoma, WA kitchen in 1977. She is his channel. I first learned of Ramtha a year ago from William Tiller, PhD, a physicist who was the expert witness for Pacific Health Center, Inc., charged by the State of Washington with violating consumer protection laws with a fraudulent medical diagnostic device. I agreed to be the expert witness for the State of Washington. Pacific Health lost. Tiller had been at Stanford before taking "early retirement," I think they call it. I was familiar with a 1994 medical device that Tiller said would protect computer users from the effects of EMF http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN94/wn052794.html . To my knowledge, no one who bought the device was ever harmed by EMF from their computer. Tiller says he has a high regard for the graduates of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment who produced Bleep. He said the movie doubled the sale of his books. 4. SPACE STATION: NASA THREATENS TO SHUT DOWN RESEARCH ON ISS. For a year, yesterday's Nature says, to save money. This is the "Washington Monument ploy." WN predicted a year ago that NASA would try it http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn031105.html , but there is no meaningful research on the ISS to shut down. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 01:03:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75834f1014318; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:03:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75832d7014304; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:03:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:03:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=D7frFUFBRfFOR4lPYtPWocV7f4+ky/V7AFl3QB64DabPOvvkqKpR8MuQKXiaKyYb; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068658240856 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 02:02:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405f76975d8e2962ae32d8ce699676fc21350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Terry wrote. > > I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until > Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have > results from phase II for the small engines. > There might be photochemical effects that could "denature" the activated water if it's exposed to light, no? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Terry wrote.
 
>
> I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until
> Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have
> results from phase II for the small engines.
> 
There might be photochemical effects that could "denature" the
activated water if it's exposed to light, no?
 
Fred 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 01:40:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k758eAxE029248; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:40:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k758e7YZ029210; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:40:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:40:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NgqNzgJYBpe8l6MHG/76MImo9LzI5EQ97gW+Xf82Sua4XQIAKHWvNYrICyYUdlh7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200686583949885 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 02:39:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940548c6624a6bf494f45081c58bca251ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.71 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On second thought, Terry, you might want to store it in that "Little Brown Jug" you have stashed in your medicine cabinet lest it might really pop it's cork on a "Rainy Night in Georgia". 2.5 eV photons are two orders of magnitude above the 0.025 eV thermal energy at 27 degrees C. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 8/5/2006 2:03:41 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Terry wrote. > > I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until > Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have > results from phase II for the small engines. > There might be photochemical effects that could "denature" the activated water if it's exposed to light, no? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
On second thought, Terry, you might want to store it
in that "Little Brown Jug" you have stashed in your medicine cabinet
lest it might really pop it's cork on a "Rainy Night in Georgia".
 
2.5 eV photons are two orders of magnitude above the 0.025 eV
thermal energy at 27 degrees C. 
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/5/2006 2:03:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions

Terry wrote.
 
>
> I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until
> Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have
> results from phase II for the small engines.
> 
There might be photochemical effects that could "denature" the
activated water if it's exposed to light, no?
 
Fred 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 03:46:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75AkZ6J015578; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75AkYH9015562; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:46:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QpQQcL5+cI3ad2XUk1LsM4yAi4g8oBzl2Ck7KGvHlNiz9TsDVTTXF11nyY7QRhijFlKhQLPBDK7M3uGOoc90zSLta2qLZwHtv2qHJlm2Hlv+d5wXm8T3dAhQniZka5UThAXtCokJ7vgo0/tzWq3di2kEEOyNUnKsz5Sy4remy10= ; Message-ID: <20060805104632.41525.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:46:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1563696800-1154774792=:41519" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1563696800-1154774792=:41519 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Terry, My comments on this are at http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 however I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as well. My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say they invented it! Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working. Chris Arnold "The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn used to drive an inertially damped drag motor." Terry Blanton wrote: US 7,053,576 "Abstract This invention relates to apparatus for the conversion of massfree energy into electrical or kinetic energy, which uses in its preferred form a transmitter and a receiver both incorporating Tesla coils, the distal ends of whose secondary windings are co-resonant and connected to plates of a chamber, preferably evacuated or filled with water, such that energy radiated by the transmitter may be picked up by the receiver, the receiver preferably further including a pulsed plasma reactor driven by the receiver coil and a split phase motor driven by the reactor. Preferably the reactor operates in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode, and the motor is an inertially damped drag motor. The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn used to drive an inertially damped drag motor." --------------------------------- Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. --0-1563696800-1154774792=:41519 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Terry,
 
My comments on this are at http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 however I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as well.
 
My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say they invented it! Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working.
 
Chris Arnold
 
"The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven
plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn
used to drive an inertially damped drag motor."
 


Terry Blanton <hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:
US 7,053,576

"Abstract

This invention relates to apparatus for the conversion of massfree
energy into electrical or kinetic energy, which uses in its preferred
form a transmitter and a receiver both incorporating Tesla coils, the
distal ends of whose secondary windings are co-resonant and connected
to plates of a chamber, preferably evacuated or filled with water,
such that energy radiated by the transmitter may be picked up by the
receiver, the receiver preferably further including a pulsed plasma
reactor driven by the receiver coil and a split phase motor driven by
the reactor. Preferably the reactor operates in pulsed abnormal gas
discharge mode, and the motor is an inertially damped drag motor. The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn used to drive an inertially damped drag motor."

Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. --0-1563696800-1154774792=:41519-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 05:06:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75C6Pg4019436; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:06:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75C6LkQ019382; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:06:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:06:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <44D487A6.5D2C1F24 centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:57:26 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xt" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: odd coincidence Status: O X-Status: Hi All, How odd. I just finished reading "Towards ..." by William Tiller, p. 9, Infinite Energy, Vol 10, Issue 58, 2004, about mentally conditioning a laboratory to produce anomolous results, and then this morning I read the enclosed below: Jack Smith ------------- Forward from aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Aug 06 Washington, DC 3. BLEEP: WILLIAM TILLER AND "RAMTHA'S SCHOOL OF ENLIGHTENMENT." August is a slow month, and I promised last week to say a little about Ramtha and William Tiller ... Randy E Hargraves wrote: Hi Friends I was one of the individuals that Bought and Paid for a SMOT unit from Greg Watson I never received it ... Greg Watson wrote: Hi Randy, You need to checkout the site I have created which has ample proof that the Prometheus Effect, at the heart of the SMOT device, is OU: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prometheus_effect/ You will get your SMOT complete with a new real time measurement system which allows rapid ramp adjustment to obtain max OU energy creation. I expect to start shipping unit in about 2 months so anyone else who didn't get or want their money back, just send me your delivery details. All the best, Greg Watson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 05:30:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75CTke0000443; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:29:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75CThrP000400; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:29:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:29:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6b88a$c8697570$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Correa Patent Issued Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:28:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6B860.BE6AF690"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6B860.BE6AF690 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6B860.BE6E03D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6B860.BE6E03D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankChris wrote.. My comments on this are at = http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1993&mod= e=3Dthread&order=3D0&thold=3D0 however I will say here that the Correa's = are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they = have sticky fingers as well. My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say = they invented it!=20 Howdy Chris, Gosh Chris, That's plum disgusting! My sweet ole grandma Blanche Louise Townley, to = whom one never attributed a "cuss word" would have understood and = appreciated the " common" remark. One must be veddy British to = appreciate the depth of disgust the use of this word implies. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6B860.BE6E03D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Chris wrote..
My comments on this are at http://zpener= gy.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1993&mode= =3Dthread&order=3D0&thold=3D0 however=20 I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, = foul,=20 nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as = well.
 
My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to = say they=20 invented it!
 
Howdy Chris,
 
Gosh Chris,
That's plum  disgusting! My sweet ole grandma Blanche Louise = Townley,=20 to whom one never attributed a "cuss word" would have understood and = appreciated=20 the " common" remark. One must be veddy British to appreciate the depth = of=20 disgust the use of this word implies.
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6B860.BE6E03D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6B860.BE6AF690 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6b88a$a70ea3f0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6B860.BE6AF690-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 05:46:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75Cjw7Y008557; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:45:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75CjvCx008540; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:45:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:45:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XtPlPagsZbM4jVAgKKNsOhHoH6EAuytV07kLYxawWeV7uiYC7xiqDex+ph98DlQcObzSPp6GmPfLHqSMhA/vUJ1kx3d9c3q2tirirg3iLG0yMbYiv/ZH1pfyd/rx/od2mWUY9vpIWiKGdRXxw9opjWAsPpC1b+5lUVTQSD0z9o8= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:45:57 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Aqueous-Electrolytic CO2 Catalyzed H2 Producrtion In-Reply-To: <016d01c6b836$008c7e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4 4ax.com> <016d01c6b836$008c7e70$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/4/06, Jones Beene wrote: > A previously used (years) aluminum pot with a Teflon coating is > quite conductive... ERGO age & usage must promote porosity, which > is not obvious visually ... I might have scratched it when I put the plates in; but, when I filled it with salt water for a test, I detected no conductivity. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 05:50:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75Co6KE010971; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75Co3eE010878; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XIil0V7J46DijmWNty1KmfwrQB2BOzk9s5pdQPbqhUU+pzfi+VnN5g4yvsSg+MQomFI6jDmm8NbdIG0ut9m2pfb53EPFfVKYg7KxRuwcTry6akoHCsKKKCkSQ4oDzLi6EcTj1SZ5gb0UziDc3EssWlMT6IDXT+hzjGBanXdaDnA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:49:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Running In-Reply-To: <44D40157.8060607 iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <8C88216A7E1D69D-174-F774 mblkn-m13.sysops.aol.com> <44D40157.8060607 iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/4/06, Wesley Bruce wrote: > Whats the metal under the Teflon. Aluminum. > If there are field effects involved > then induced currents in any metal can cause the effect to fail. > Insulator on metal is not the same as a non metallic container. Also > take a volt meter and check for charge and charge leakage in the unused > wires. The voltage drop from the anode to the cathode increases from plate to plate. I will quantify that today. > The plates are uncharged but will gain charge. If they do they > become positive or negative capacitors. Are the ends of the unused wires > from adjacent plates segregated? Yes, they are segregated. I thought the whole point of the neutral plates was to make them capacitors. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 06:04:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75D4CKI019142; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:04:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75D4AUZ019103; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:04:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:04:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CaHVdJZ+pm0o0/JhDImUsDAAuAcPa+DOC8Y+eZy7aW+J0OeH93h/aEdvVjyXARoZHZoLwLWplev3g4UUJ4a0DDjAM0nsnGvBP3Mq1UsysqRLjbzAQhVhfmyNy/tgaQd6qlOnOWuVD+cJxZuTFgzi/j/hCOYFKvhCSCzjHboqZGs= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:04:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200686583949885 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/5/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > On second thought, Terry, you might want to store it > in that "Little Brown Jug" you have stashed in your medicine cabinet > lest it might really pop it's cork on a "Rainy Night in Georgia". Ain't got no cork. Is a corn cob okay? It hasn't been "used". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 06:20:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75DKNcK028408; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:20:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75DKIP6028362; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:20:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:20:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=eY9YNTMDLEN6G1zBN2F6mHd4vJZ9PtAf47qumuFLz3IdqauLxIl21V8Y8zs1OaO38jc5ZiVqdSYjeAMGnB8l2x3EQglqHQ8pG/pVrhJTzjG3rH5sumNW1/jfz9AA9dDxmvtphbp2gcOHMS2Hh6rEreAPcZmkQlV4banIx17/D9U= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:20:11 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: When Chaos Replaces Oil Status: O X-Status: http://www.hbtoday.co.nz/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3694928&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection= http://tinyurl.com/ldupk FEATURE: When chaos replaces oil 02.08.2006 KATHY WEBB Peter Lloyd is preparing for a ghastly future. The world he foresees is one in which it will cost $700 or $1000 to fill the family car - if petrol is available for private use. It will be a world in which the scarcity and expense of oil, widespread pollution, environmental ruin and climate change will bring down modern civilisation in terrible anarchy as countries go to war over oil, fresh water or arable land; as ordinary people try to adjust to living primitive lives without the medicines and technology that support their lives in the 21st century. Dr Lloyd, an anaesthetist at the Hawke's Bay Hospital, estimates about 80 percent of the world's six billion people will die of hunger, disease or "slaughter on a scale never before seen in history". The other two in the series: Previous: http://tinyurl.com/evmus FEATURE: Life in the straw Subsequent: http://tinyurl.com/j3fea FEATURES: Harmony off the grid Zelanders are smarter than the average American. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 07:35:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75EZ0jj002507; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:35:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75EYlJ5002364; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:34:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:34:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IbHdnKEhdOrJayy8hUhAY3cMC5C/pUnRaWGoILitrpEicW3O869zhA2/k6u/p5a+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006865143434630 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:34:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a0682ec2e7f03792581e4ef20a14a5f7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.247 Resent-Message-ID: <8BZEuD.A.4k.HyK1EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We used a seed potato if the cobs were too dry, Terry. Fred > > [Original Message] > From: Terry > > On 8/5/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > On second thought, Terry, you might want to store it > > in that "Little Brown Jug" you have stashed in your medicine cabinet > > lest it might really pop it's cork on a "Rainy Night in Georgia". > > Ain't got no cork. Is a corn cob okay? It hasn't been "used". > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 07:50:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75EoAYf010795; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75Eo932010775; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:50:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:50:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=X7VeypJgB+tW8U0Cj1VX5MK4RInSskCd2ZkXbS1xinb95UyJpfX9j/417KaCKE59ww6I57yzUIvuxwC4eVqx4GlsBDSeyCIxvN9mmkWafkLk/xQXMxSS5ZDZAZNwegmwrNlUI+VH/yhtMvwpPkUhuBQRlckDWrEiENyi4EDSbyc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:50:08 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <0I0fN.A.PoC.gAL1EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: WKtEC Status: O X-Status: "Who killed the electric car?" is playing in Atlanta at the Tara on Cheshire Bridge. I hope to see it this week. Here's a news story about a converted Fiero: http://www.wusa9.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=51174 click on "related video". Do you think the solar panels help? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 07:52:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75EqB7X011831; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75Eq9FE011812; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:52:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c831FW9Q8V0XiAfUASsTtBq8acIw+Qe9Ra16iNuNBhJndJpyy4UJ0kWYQdyYxMJ4FQmY7/sO8yO9bZ8PNXUm/ogOQlUUcCp+jijuidL4pWfA7ngr2y//mj3vVcXyuDlY8/I81UQ4xMtt8yHzYLtxlbXguVakZ+Gu+yzDBXEgSmw= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:52:08 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions In-Reply-To: <410-22006865143434630 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006865143434630 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/5/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > We used a seed potato if the cobs were too dry, Terry. I trust you mean for the jug seal and not for TP. Darn potato will seal any exhaust pipe. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 07:59:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75ExTdA016053; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:59:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75ExR23016009; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:59:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:59:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Xr0O3aQKvA62C6HaH28+1bC5zhuC4qyrDYLaMOw1+ofQzTIScVkDyP+0h0H0z/vkhiCdes6/AY3bP1R8FlLhwuUMirZkD3fuQVNbPSNrw3G6j0kjIzAPJNWWmhJzDzlanKiHG0KFYd3O9wgbub8W8iXMQFJeq9o204CW8dd3iAE= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:59:26 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: WKtEC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/5/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > "Who killed the electric car?" is playing in Atlanta at the Tara on > Cheshire Bridge. I hope to see it this week. Another video from Jon Stewart's Daily Show on the subject. Quite amusing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4Z4xEmAuR0 Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 08:11:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75FB6Gv023325; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:11:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75FB5W8023304; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:11:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:11:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DmYpyVzmdLXNUhggfbN+SLw1SVYnRsDC20MSGzhTz3U3Whv1LABe5oT3uGXEKQdy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006865151054795 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:10:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401878331c36d704eb134b3248fb69d6cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote. > > > On 8/5/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > We used a seed potato if the cobs were too dry, Terry. > > I trust you mean for the jug seal and not for TP. Darn potato will > seal any exhaust pipe. :-) > I meant for a jug seal. Butt if you used them for TP you could get over 400 bushels per acre off a peck of them. Maybe so much yield that you would need to dig them with a skip-loader. :-) Fred > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 08:27:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75FRCWn032186; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:27:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75FR6kT032149; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:27:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bS6pX3HhGwUVOMKK8e9ogiPsVH20+KK9xdBKq5mmdskKFdtLf/uGMZ4ldZnQ51p0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006865152649398 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II & Photochemical Reactions Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:26:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dcb74866d13681b0f7ef4a8f0e7688cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.145 Resent-Message-ID: <45HDU.A.R2H.KjL1EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Terry, during WW II when cotton was scarce, in our high school you could tell when it was that time for the girls because they were only wearing one sock. Toxic sock syndrome was a major concern too. Fred > > Terry wrote. > > > > > > On 8/5/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > We used a seed potato if the cobs were too dry, Terry. > > > > I trust you mean for the jug seal and not for TP. Darn potato will > > seal any exhaust pipe. :-) > > > I meant for a jug seal. Butt if you used them for TP you could > get over 400 bushels per acre off a peck of them. Maybe so > much yield that you would need to dig them with a skip-loader. :-) > > Fred > > > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 10:54:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75Hrm5l011840; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:53:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75HrjvN011809; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:53:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:53:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=k3hHt23qREhOBniCaKzNdqvGV/JVf6MPgfXFqMTp8ouelR9iudowrmnnQTAE7yaon4DwgYUztJCcaK+6Innsu5rUFQOW/J0oP4oCyF/GRKlb8wFauDDHq1M7w1b/v7YBbPnRMThDPl4lAEuYyw5qggAFbqln+LiikCAfZ/FChtk= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 13:53:43 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Joe Cell Plate Voltages Status: O X-Status: Here is the data. Error is +/- 0.1 VDC. Measurement is from anode to cathode. Note the power supply has gone up in V from 9.15 to 9.4. http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Plate_Voltages.xls Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 12:35:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75JZNMi031694; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:35:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75JZLAS031681; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 13:34:34 -0600 Message-Id: <200608051334.AA3540189452 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some Named Hal Ade made this comment on that site: >I believe this was the Correa motor, the operation of which was witnessed by the late Eugene >MAllove, D. Sc., and formerly with M.I.T. Dr. MAllove, being an electrical engineer, and >wise to any means which could be used to hoax a witness, checked the device for connections >to any external source of conventional energy, and found none. I worked with Mallove for a year--he was not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, nor did he claim to be. He was not an experimentalist and would not have been any better than anyone else at detecting a hoax. That doesn't mean there was a hoax, of course, but inflating Mallove's powers of observation is meaningless. Jeff Kooistra Former Associate Editor of Infinite Energy Magazine. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Christopher Arnold Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 03:46:32 -0700 (PDT) >Terry, > > My comments on this are at http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 however I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as well. > > My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say they invented it! Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working. > > Chris Arnold > > "The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven >plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn >used to drive an inertially damped drag motor." > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 12:56:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k75JtlCx009326; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:55:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k75JtjQv009302; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:55:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 12:55:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CnZ0tn/DSizOCIZECVQsEj1uj2VKzn1eja+yWyx2b/koqkMjcUXMdf8o9EUkI1We; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Willis Jenkin" To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: aa463fd6799f547694f5150ab1c16ac05e64a811bd85dd4fce1aeb1ed1b1ab0ad88de9b1b59e4b62350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <4qmqDD.A.NRC.AfP1EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin! On your response to my posting on ‘some’ in the field using pulsed DC and still obtaining gas production (H2, O2), below 1.2V, please be assured that it was not measured with a DC volt meter, more like a $25K US Tek Scope and followed with a standard formula of Vrms=Sqrt(y/x)* Vp, where Vp is the pulse max V, y is the pulse width and x is leading edge to leading edge. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 21:55:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7640GFM003781; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:01:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k763A4q5032698; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:10:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:10:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060805195555.02c69ea0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:00:31 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: help requested mpg to swf Status: O X-Status: Any Vorts skilled at converting mpg to swf? I've got a one-hour video from 1989 of an internal EPRI meeting about CF that I'd love to drop on the net. I could use either some guidance (I own Macromedia MX Flash 2004 but I'm a novice and don't want to take the time to RTFM) or some volunteer assistance to do the encoding. thx s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 23:05:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k765UhuE011184; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:33:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k764mJ7H009494; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:48:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:48:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D5747E.3090904 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:47:58 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: odd coincidence References: <410-22006821988465 earthlink.net> <34v2d25k6hv9od8nhhubr9teuedomlmec4@4ax.com> <44D487A6.5D2C1F24@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <44D487A6.5D2C1F24 centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Greg Watson wrote: > >Hi Randy, > >You need to checkout the site I have created which has >ample proof that the Prometheus Effect, at the heart >of the SMOT device, is OU: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prometheus_effect/ > > I tried the above link and got a no such page found error message. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 23:06:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k765UhuC011184; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:32:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k765RCH7007909; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:27:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:27:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D573AD.3010707 usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:44:29 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued References: <20060805104632.41525.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060805104632.41525.qmail web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Terry, > > My comments on this are at > http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 > however > I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no > imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as > well. I take it that you don't care for Paulo and Alexandra, eh, Chris? > > My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - Your PAGD? > they decided to say they invented it! And now you are saying that you developed it? Can you prove that? > Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not > do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working. > I've heard that the PAGD worked. Apparently it doesn't work all that well. I'm still looking for a FE device to heat my house, winter is coming! What do you think about the Correa's theory about extracting energy from Orgone Boxes? > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 23:25:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k766K8Iq019146; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:25:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76615nZ005261; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:01:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Y/M57aZGJ5MsN1jkFFhHU02We/S70H6DwXQOp7Jb8hwgOj092mw+cWyXoNCxTZSrrZ9wBVtMD7/pziqzx7dDHzSHgk3a6jAQBaJ9WI8K2GApTnAebX3pc5tvOZj/ltotTHisxQh7iJbN11XvPxb1a46U+SVykFrR1M3KVqM2VO0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:33:13 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: help requested mpg to swf In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060805195555.02c69ea0 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_28457_22583240.1154842393136" References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060805195555.02c69ea0 mail.newenergytimes.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_28457_22583240.1154842393136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline why not just upload the mpeg to youtube? On 8/5/06, Steve Krivit wrote: > > Any Vorts skilled at converting mpg to swf? I've got a one-hour video from > 1989 of an internal EPRI meeting about CF that I'd love to drop on the > net. > I could use either some guidance (I own Macromedia MX Flash 2004 but I'm a > novice and don't want to take the time to RTFM) or some volunteer > assistance to do the encoding. > > thx > > s > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_28457_22583240.1154842393136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline why not just upload the mpeg to youtube?

On 8/5/06, Steve Krivit <stevek@newenergytimes.com> wrote:
Any Vorts skilled at converting mpg to swf? I've got a one-hour video from
1989 of an internal EPRI meeting about CF that I'd love to drop on the net.
I could use either some guidance (I own Macromedia MX Flash 2004 but I'm a
novice and don't want to take the time to RTFM) or some volunteer
assistance to do the encoding.

thx

s




--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_28457_22583240.1154842393136-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 23:25:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k766K8Is019146; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:25:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k765nfXY028561; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:49:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 00:48:34 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; I've been thinking about MPI's FE machine patent. It would be marvelous if it worked. However the first thing that comes to mind is Takashi's motor, the one he mounted in the moped. The story was that he shipped it to a FE machine conference in London. They picked it up at the airport, started it by giving it a push, and then drove it down the motorway at a high rate of speed. It's reported acceleration was awesome! What ever effect allowed it to do this was quickly lost however. I subsequently saw the moped offered for sale, at a price that even I could afford. It's clear to me that reconditioning the motor must have posed significant problems. Which brings me around to my questions. How difficult is it to recondition the magnets? can reconditioning circuitry be build into the unit so that one magnetic module can be reconditioned while the others continue to produce energy? With that said, what percentage of the output power do you estimate will be required for this process? I would also suggest that the control circuitry be configured to that it can be slaved, or paralleled to the utility. This would allow it to conveniently feed power back onto the grid. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 5 23:25:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k766K8Iu019146; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:25:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k765eaah021021; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:40:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:40:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0FeWjnrgNO1oX7TbZuZBalsVOIEwXXZoOm09derXN9EfEb9j1tBfStyR9DfOHUj+cyJdGE2GLrEt4SMcgirHu8Equm9VfY4j5L/D8gsIK3rpwf7edDlDKhb7fpRmxaVbNBsaup1kobwXrmgU9AVxtA9n9K2hxAa086snBggfhNU= ; Message-ID: <20060806035351.34149.qmail web33312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:53:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c6b88a$c8697570$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-978875804-1154836431=:33854" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-978875804-1154836431=:33854 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-939420314-1154836431=:33854" --0-939420314-1154836431=:33854 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard, Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that Stanford has hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond for broad scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon Vally. The looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or any other University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery of a never before known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond powder? Quite the "common" thing to do. Chris wrote: BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica } P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman" } LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman" } Chris wrote.. My comments on this are at http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 however I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as well. My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say they invented it! Howdy Chris, Gosh Chris, That's plum disgusting! My sweet ole grandma Blanche Louise Townley, to whom one never attributed a "cuss word" would have understood and appreciated the " common" remark. One must be veddy British to appreciate the depth of disgust the use of this word implies. Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-939420314-1154836431=:33854 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Richard,
 
Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that Stanford has hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond for broad scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon Vally. The looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or any other University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery of a never before known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond powder?
 
Quite the "common" thing to do.
 
Chris


<walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:
Chris wrote..
My comments on this are at http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 however I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as well.
 
My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - they decided to say they invented it!
 
Howdy Chris,
 
Gosh Chris,
That's plum  disgusting! My sweet ole grandma Blanche Louise Townley, to whom one never attributed a "cuss word" would have understood and appreciated the " common" remark. One must be veddy British to appreciate the depth of disgust the use of this word implies.
Richard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-939420314-1154836431=:33854-- --0-978875804-1154836431=:33854-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 00:19:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k766uZNP012628; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:56:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k766uURa012570; Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:56:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:56:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.12] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:56:19 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2006 06:56:21.0366 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C9AF160:01C6B925] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The generator in the MPI patent application reflects a prototype that functioned briefly in late 2004. More are under construction, with the goal of a pre-production unit in the hands of a manufacturer by the end of this year. That assumes sufficient working capital, which is still in short supply. MPI had the North American rights to the Takahashi patents. Unfortunately, in the opinion of the President of his Company, he turned out to be a fraud. We had one of the scooters in our lab and the motor had nothing unusual. Performance of the scooter was, sadly, also not unusual. Permanent magnets will normally operate without noticable loss for more than a human lifetime. They only lose strength if abused, e.g. struck with a hammer, or operated outside of the region of their operating curve due to poor design. A typical car has numerous pm motors. We expect they will operate in our generators just as reliably, for many decades. Modules used for home power will be configured to feed the grid. just as pv panels do. Mark >From: thomas malloy >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes >Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 00:48:34 -0500 > >Vortexians; > >I've been thinking about MPI's FE machine patent. It would be marvelous if >it worked. However the first thing that comes to mind is Takashi's motor, >the one he mounted in the moped. The story was that he shipped it to a FE >machine conference in London. They picked it up at the airport, started it >by giving it a push, and then drove it down the motorway at a high rate of >speed. It's reported acceleration was awesome! What ever effect allowed it >to do this was quickly lost however. I subsequently saw the moped offered >for sale, at a price that even I could afford. It's clear to me that >reconditioning the motor must have posed significant problems. > >Which brings me around to my questions. How difficult is it to recondition >the magnets? can reconditioning circuitry be build into the unit so that >one magnetic module can be reconditioned while the others continue to >produce energy? With that said, what percentage of the output power do you >estimate will be required for this process? > >I would also suggest that the control circuitry be configured to that it >can be slaved, or paralleled to the utility. This would allow it to >conveniently feed power back onto the grid. > > >--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 04:34:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76BYU50007012; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 04:34:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76BYSgw006984; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 04:34:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 04:34:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=K3Wow0u9apQJW46pQtq7aEvGdfp6O2jMMHJNewPJrUX9nhhl7J2hw/+zIMhB59DL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200680611347511 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 05:34:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400170bbe23c159ffdd8468a8eb82a7466350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.172 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Recapping: 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". My Conclusion: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. * Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less. Starting out on the lighter side. (the cartoon on entropy) http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~chem241/lecture/unit4a.pdf http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/applychem/waterchem.html http://web.chemistry.gatech.edu/~wilkinson/Class_notes/spring_2004_1311_page/slides/Solubility%20of%20ionic%20compounds%20and%20intermolecular%20forces%202%20up.pdf http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JCPSA6000113000017007306000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes Calculation of the absolute hydration enthalpy and free energy of H + and OH– "The hydration enthalpy and Gibbs free energy of proton and hydroxide are calculated by means of a combination of ab initio density functional theory and a polarizable continuum model within the self-consistent reaction field method. The ion–water cluster models here used include up to 13 water molecules solvating the ions. This allows the first and second solvation shells to be described explicitly from first principles. Vibrational contributions to the enthalpy and entropy have been taken into account. Our best model of the hydrated proton includes three molecules in the first hydration shell and nine molecules in the second shell. The calculated proton hydration enthalpy is –1150 kJ/mol, which is in rather good agreement with the most recent results from cluster–ion solvation data. The hydration free energy of the proton has a larger error of 50–80 kJ/mol as compared to recently reported values. The calculated hydroxide hydration enthalpy, –520 kJ/mol, and hydration free energy, –400 kJ/mol, are consistent with well-established values taken from experiment. Two different sources of error in our calculations, namely, the nature of the hydrated complex and the outlying charge correction, are discussed. Moreover, we compare the results from three slightly different methods for the calculation of hydration energies. ©2000 American Institute of Physics. " Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Recapping:
 
1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
 
2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ".
3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
 
4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
 
My Conclusion:
 
The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)
that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization"
and Hydration of the water.
 
Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into
a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about
750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
* Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less.
 
Starting out on the lighter side. (the cartoon on entropy)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Calculation of the absolute hydration enthalpy and free energy of H + and OH–
"The hydration enthalpy and Gibbs free energy of proton and hydroxide are calculated by means of a combination of ab initio density functional theory and a polarizable continuum model within the self-consistent reaction field method. The ion–water cluster models here used include up to 13 water molecules solvating the ions. This allows the first and second solvation shells to be described explicitly from first principles. Vibrational contributions to the enthalpy and entropy have been taken into account. Our best model of the hydrated proton includes three molecules in the first hydration shell and nine molecules in the second shell. The calculated proton hydration enthalpy is –1150 kJ/mol, which is in rather good agreement with the most recent results from cluster–ion solvation data. The hydration free energy of the proton has a larger error of 50–80 kJ/mol as compared to recently reported values. The calculated hydroxide hydration enthalpy, –520 kJ/mol, and hydration free energy, –400 kJ/mol, are consistent with well-established values taken from experiment. Two different sources of error in our calculations, namely, the nature of the hydrated complex and the outlying charge correction, are discussed. Moreover, we compare the results from three slightly different methods for the calculation of hydration energies. ©2000 American Institute of Physics. "
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 05:53:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76Cr69i010345; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 05:53:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76Cr4lG010326; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 05:53:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 05:53:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YvtX4Y+6NVWLFoRX/HGyazWePZ6AaZ0IsCXH/4HWY7+DHNIydkkqqdSzm/fDrYPj; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200680612525184 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:52:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94080fda24a41f388e56e81689c99f62c1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.172 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The4 Grotthuss Mechanism: http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/1999/news03_99.htm "Walking without moving: proton diffusion in water" "Nearly 200 years after its initial conception, scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Solid State Research in Stuttgart and the New York University have unravelled the so-called "Grotthuss mechanism of structural diffusion" in microscopic detail, see Nature (volume 397, 18 February 1999). The insights gained will be of help in biology and chemistry, as discussed by J. T. Hynes in the accompanying "News and Views" article in the same issue. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 8/6/2006 5:35:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Recapping: 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". My Conclusion: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. * Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less. http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/applychem/waterchem.html http://web.chemistry.gatech.edu/~wilkinson/Class_notes/spring_2004_1311_page/slides/Solubility%20of%20ionic%20compounds%20and%20intermolecular%20forces%202%20up.pdf http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JCPSA6000113000017007306000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes Calculation of the absolute hydration enthalpy and free energy of H + and OH– "The hydration enthalpy and Gibbs free energy of proton and hydroxide are calculated by means of a combination of ab initio density functional theory and a polarizable continuum model within the self-consistent reaction field method. The ion–water cluster models here used include up to 13 water molecules solvating the ions. This allows the first and second solvation shells to be described explicitly from first principles. Vibrational contributions to the enthalpy and entropy have been taken into account. Our best model of the hydrated proton includes three molecules in the first hydration shell and nine molecules in the second shell. The calculated proton hydration enthalpy is –1150 kJ/mol, which is in rather good agreement with the most recent results from cluster–ion solvation data. The hydration free energy of the proton has a larger error of 50–80 kJ/mol as compared to recently reported values. The calculated hydroxide hydration enthalpy, –520 kJ/mol, and hydration ! free energy, –400 kJ/mol, are consistent with well-established values taken from experiment. Two different sources of error in our calculations, namely, the nature of the hydrated complex and the outlying charge correction, are discussed. Moreover, we compare the results from three slightly different methods for the calculation of hydration energies. ©2000 American Institute of Physics. " Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The4 Grotthuss Mechanism:
 
 

"Walking without moving: proton diffusion in water"

"Nearly 200 years after its initial conception, scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Solid State Research in Stuttgart and the New York University have unravelled the so-called "Grotthuss mechanism of structural diffusion" in microscopic detail, see Nature (volume 397, 18 February 1999). The insights gained will be of help in biology and chemistry, as discussed by J. T. Hynes in the accompanying "News and Views" article in the same issue. "

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/6/2006 5:35:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water

Recapping:
 
1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
 
2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ".
3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
 
4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
 
My Conclusion:
 
The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)
that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization"
and Hydration of the water.
 
Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into
a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about
750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
 
* Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Calculation of the absolute hydration enthalpy and free energy of H + and OH–
"The hydration enthalpy and Gibbs free energy of proton and hydroxide are calculated by means of a combination of ab initio density functional theory and a polarizable continuum model within the self-consistent reaction field method. The ion–water cluster models here used include up to 13 water molecules solvating the ions. This allows the first and second solvation shells to be described explicitly from first principles. Vibrational contributions to the enthalpy and entropy have been taken into account. Our best model of the hydrated proton includes three molecules in the first hydration shell and nine molecules in the second shell. The calculated proton hydration enthalpy is –1150 kJ/mol, which is in rather good agreement with the most recent results from cluster–ion solvation data. The hydration free energy of the proton has a larger error of 50–80 kJ/mol as compared to recently reported values. The calculated hydroxide hydration enthalpy, –520 kJ/mol, and hydration ! free energy, –400 kJ/mol, are consistent with well-established values taken from experiment. Two different sources of error in our calculations, namely, the nature of the hydrated complex and the outlying charge correction, are discussed. Moreover, we compare the results from three slightly different methods for the calculation of hydration energies. ©2000 American Institute of Physics. "
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 06:31:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76DUobw028875; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:30:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76DUmXD028833; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:30:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:30:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001b01c6b95c$7dd41a60$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Correa Patent Issued Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:29:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6B932.7C6F9A70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6B932.7C6F9A70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6B932.7C6F9A70" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6B932.7C6F9A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Chris wrote.. Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that Stanford = has hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond = for broad scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon = Vally. The looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or = any other University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery = of a never before known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond = powder? Quite the "common" thing to do. Howdy Chris, You read my post on patent themes. Didn't your grandmother ever tell = you that people cheat at cards? Hollywood has made a fortune fostering = the fable that good guys wear white hats. What is to keep bad guys from = wearing white hats to fool the gullible? A border cantina ( University) is no place to look for a " friendly " = game of cards. The crossed bandeleers and the knife in the boot is a = sure sign you are in mixed company. Ah! Stanford .. where all the hopes = and aspirations of the simple and pure in heart clash with "silicon = valley and US DOE". If you want to make a fortune, move to New Mexico, raise long red = peppers and sell the strings to the rich tourists. All the patents have = expired. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6B932.7C6F9A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Chris wrote..
Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that = Stanford has=20 hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond for = broad=20 scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon Vally. = The=20 looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or any other=20 University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery of a = never before=20 known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond powder?
 
Quite the "common" thing to do.
 
 
Howdy Chris,
You read my post on patent themes.  Didn't your grandmother = ever tell=20 you that people cheat at cards? Hollywood has made a = fortune fostering the=20 fable that good guys wear white hats. What is to keep bad guys from = wearing=20 white hats to fool the gullible?
 
A border cantina ( University)  is no place to look for a " = friendly "=20 game of cards. The crossed bandeleers and the knife in the boot is a = sure sign=20 you are in mixed company.  Ah! Stanford .. where all the hopes and=20 aspirations of the simple and pure in heart clash with "silicon valley = and US=20 DOE".
 
If you want to make a fortune, move to New Mexico, raise long red = peppers=20 and sell the strings to the rich tourists. All the patents have = expired.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C6B932.7C6F9A70-- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6B932.7C6F9A70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001601c6b95c$653352f0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C6B932.7C6F9A70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 06:49:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76DjYWm007601; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:45:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76DjUxA007519; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:45:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=q2irwfcAzzsm1U/V9jnqHmrS/FOGzzMzn8ABEmjJSWZfaLydGNXe6GYl9hb1rtcdEYNqZdat5cadkbr7TqrynnOlJIKdMxYfFHP5h24gTyuulonc9GcCsAo7aqbsyd4zKjG4jLe7S8X6mC5f/yq+2u4K7RVyJ1PNA93iE1l3tsQ= ; Message-ID: <20060806134522.61932.qmail web33302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <44D573AD.3010707 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1323464102-1154871922=:61268" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1323464102-1154871922=:61268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Terry, Igor Alexeff invented the Plasma Discharge Tube that the Correas Borrowed and say they discovered it. please see this for yourself http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4291255 The Correas use of my Pulsed Plasma Drive to power their motor is the infringement. The Pulsed Plasma Drive can never directly produce an abnormal glow discharge which is known of as a weak plasma, compared to the Dense Plasma Focus of my Pulsed Plasma Drive - which is an extremely powerful and energetic Plasma, capable of of D+D, D+T and even aneutronic fusion as I told Puthoff in 2000. If the Correa's PAGD Tube is so marvelous, why didn't it impress Eugene Mallove, considering Mallove flatly told me he did "not" believe my Spark Gap Drive (Pulsed Plasma Drive) would work at all. Jim from Sarasota attempted to get an interview with me published by Mallove, who still thought Dense Plasma Focus would never allow atomic Fusion - but it was all too much for Mallove to understand or believe. The Correa's new patent was applied after I first contacted them to explain how my device was different from the PADG tube, and did not even require containment or working gasses - which they did not believe. You can clearly see they believe me now. As for their work with Orgone boxes - please remember it is from the published works of Wilhelm Reich and the Correas only duplicated it, they did NOT discover anything new in that case, or in the case of my Plasma Drive. And yes - I believe that Reich's Orgone box works - but he had many other more obscure contraptions that worked just as well. Reich never mentioned using either AC or DC Electrical Pulses in his devices - and the Orgone device was not my machine, but a contraption that was based on Reich's Orgone theories (not electrical) - and quite strange looking when I first viewed it. By the Correa's suggesting that Reich's works were connected in any way to using electrical driving power - they show themselves to have ZERO comprehension of Reich's true work or the energy involved. As I said, the Correa's are common folk. As for them using a Ouija board, dice or tarot cards for scientific insight - that is more likely than not. Chris thomas malloy wrote: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Terry, > > My comments on this are at > http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 > however > I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no > imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as > well. I take it that you don't care for Paulo and Alexandra, eh, Chris? > > My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them - Your PAGD? > they decided to say they invented it! And now you are saying that you developed it? Can you prove that? > Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not > do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working. > I've heard that the PAGD worked. Apparently it doesn't work all that well. I'm still looking for a FE device to heat my house, winter is coming! What do you think about the Correa's theory about extracting energy from Orgone Boxes? > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-1323464102-1154871922=:61268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Terry,
 
Igor Alexeff invented the Plasma Discharge Tube that the Correas Borrowed and say they discovered it. please see this for yourself http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4291255
 
The Correas use of my Pulsed Plasma Drive to power their motor is the infringement.
 
The Pulsed Plasma Drive can never directly produce an abnormal glow discharge which is known of as a weak plasma, compared to the Dense Plasma Focus of my Pulsed Plasma Drive - which is an extremely powerful and energetic Plasma, capable of of D+D, D+T and even aneutronic fusion as I told Puthoff in 2000.
 
If the Correa's PAGD Tube is so marvelous, why didn't it impress Eugene Mallove, considering Mallove flatly told me he did "not" believe my Spark Gap Drive (Pulsed Plasma Drive) would work at all. Jim from Sarasota attempted to get an interview with me published by Mallove, who still thought Dense Plasma Focus would never allow atomic Fusion - but it was all too much for Mallove to understand or believe.
 
The Correa's new patent was applied after I first contacted them to explain how my device was different from the PADG tube, and did not even require containment or working gasses - which they did not believe. You can clearly see they believe me now.
 
As for their work with Orgone boxes - please remember it is from the published works of Wilhelm Reich and the Correas only duplicated it, they did NOT discover anything new in that case, or in the case of my Plasma Drive. And yes - I believe that Reich's Orgone box works - but he had many other more obscure contraptions that worked just as well. Reich never mentioned using either AC or DC Electrical Pulses in his devices - and the Orgone device was not my machine, but a contraption that was based on Reich's Orgone theories (not electrical) - and quite strange looking when I first viewed it.
 
By the Correa's suggesting that Reich's works were connected in any way to using electrical driving power - they show themselves to have ZERO comprehension of Reich's true work or the energy involved.
 
As I said, the Correa's are common folk.
 
As for them using a Ouija board, dice or tarot cards for scientific insight - that is more likely than not.
 
Chris

thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
Christopher Arnold wrote:

> Terry,
>
> My comments on this are at
> http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1993&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
> however
> I will say here that the Correa's are common folk, with no
> imagination, foul, nasty personalities and they have sticky fingers as
> well.


I take it that you don't care for Paulo and Alexandra, eh, Chris?

>
> My Pulsed Plasma Drive worked so well for them -


Your PAGD?

> they decided to say they invented it!


And now you are saying that you developed it? Can you prove that?

> Running a motor with a Tesla Spark gap is something even Tesla did not
> do, and it is already covered by my work. So much for it not working.
>
I've heard that the PAGD worked. Apparently it doesn't work all that
well. I'm still looking for a FE device to heat my house, winter is coming!

What do you think about the Correa's theory about extracting energy from
Orgone Boxes?

>




--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-1323464102-1154871922=:61268-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 07:11:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76EApVm021314; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:10:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76EAnV4021282; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:10:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:10:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ZQhniaxN+WalKBSpq/Sph1U9jo/X6yqd4Gsodz3fV41s/Cw8fzhnJx3oa4D5ok8VMXyPkg5iUmiV8Q9JWWMwg6yY5J+gGV7+og3U53QznoLhLbdGn2rnbdBcItq96zbH+tOc+8dHir6/5r8uPBc2qhnUpIwwF9wU9nAvBqh97p4= ; Message-ID: <20060806141046.41697.qmail web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:10:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c6b95c$7dd41a60$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-1849950999-1154873446=:41628" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1849950999-1154873446=:41628 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1451059103-1154873446=:41628" --0-1451059103-1154873446=:41628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard, You might remember that I once sought investors in hydrogen, fusion and nanodiamond from the highly intelligent members of this forum - except nobody believed anything I said. Nanodiamond is a Trillion Dollar business that I will not be seeking investors for anymore - as I will attempt to finish what I started myself. My posting of Stanford/Chevron simply proves that "they" are not as resistant to change as many of the self righteous members of this group would appear to be. Stanford/Chevron finally realized how tremendously valuable my discovery is, and invested - just not with the inventor and all that refused to assist me have lost a great opportunity. Please don't take that the wrong way, but it is as plain as the nose on your face and as simple as a fact can be. Chris RC Macaulay wrote: BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica } P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman" } LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman" } Chris wrote.. Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that Stanford has hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond for broad scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon Vally. The looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or any other University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery of a never before known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond powder? Quite the "common" thing to do. Howdy Chris, You read my post on patent themes. Didn't your grandmother ever tell you that people cheat at cards? Hollywood has made a fortune fostering the fable that good guys wear white hats. What is to keep bad guys from wearing white hats to fool the gullible? A border cantina ( University) is no place to look for a " friendly " game of cards. The crossed bandeleers and the knife in the boot is a sure sign you are in mixed company. Ah! Stanford .. where all the hopes and aspirations of the simple and pure in heart clash with "silicon valley and US DOE". If you want to make a fortune, move to New Mexico, raise long red peppers and sell the strings to the rich tourists. All the patents have expired. Richard --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-1451059103-1154873446=:41628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Richard,
 
You might remember that I once sought investors in hydrogen, fusion and nanodiamond from the highly intelligent members of this forum - except nobody believed anything I said. Nanodiamond is a Trillion Dollar business that I will not be seeking investors for anymore - as I will attempt to finish what I started myself. My posting of Stanford/Chevron simply proves that "they" are not as resistant to change as many of the self righteous members of this group would appear to be. Stanford/Chevron finally realized how tremendously valuable my discovery is, and invested - just not with the inventor and all that refused to assist me have lost a great opportunity.
 
Please don't take that the wrong way, but it is as plain as the nose on your face and as simple as a fact can be.
 
Chris

RC Macaulay  wrote:
 
Chris wrote..
Tonight has been consistent, as someone just informed me that Stanford has hooked up with Chevron to study "their" new discovery of nanodiamond for broad scale industrial applications and something to do with Silicon Vally. The looming question is why I ever thought anyone at Stanford (or any other University that I contacted) would bother to fund my discovery of a never before known, Semiconductive Non Detonation Nanodiamond powder?
 
Quite the "common" thing to do.
 
 
Howdy Chris,
You read my post on patent themes.  Didn't your grandmother ever tell you that people cheat at cards? Hollywood has made a fortune fostering the fable that good guys wear white hats. What is to keep bad guys from wearing white hats to fool the gullible?
 
A border cantina ( University)  is no place to look for a " friendly " game of cards. The crossed bandeleers and the knife in the boot is a sure sign you are in mixed company.  Ah! Stanford .. where all the hopes and aspirations of the simple and pure in heart clash with "silicon valley and US DOE".
 
If you want to make a fortune, move to New Mexico, raise long red peppers and sell the strings to the rich tourists. All the patents have expired.
 
Richard
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-1451059103-1154873446=:41628-- --0-1849950999-1154873446=:41628-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 07:17:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76EHbhu027107; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:17:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76EHWv6027054; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:17:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:17:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Tzs9QlB2rZ3CCho1aIwvbtVYjkZvL00yUxK1ioN+GTlFdT76vrdJaElhZyzCx6sCuc8p6Rvl29ijoNXcqNYUg0BnN0CP8nvAfScmD7xxDRE8yZLqjXs3L6p9bypaTsj1tPk467M7T7/8Wt9s0muVWUjg5eLIt3POk/deJtfxzjE= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:17:29 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes In-Reply-To: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/6/06, thomas malloy wrote: > Which brings me around to my questions. How difficult is it to > recondition the magnets? Niodymium Iron Boron magnets are usefull for about 125 years in a magnetic gradient magnetomotive force configuration. After which, the material is totally recyclable. You simply grind it down, recompress it, resinter it, and requench it. Voila! Good as new. However, the cost will be about the same as for a new magnet. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 09:02:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76Ftj8k019316; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:55:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76Ftejd019269; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:55:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:55:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mBsFFPCtYZvp+njh8jbEs5NgnELR/TmOXB9/AS3Lite3awS5UlFMobJU97vcjCL/N2jaaUAImxlMFx6FGuEn5hY9uPjB1xsTf2ro5rtfKQ/pLBROoPws9sV1e9eBQBWHFvfFbrJAzAK92YTeJBu6ms1u6+TBNGhT/MCVrY2+u+U= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 11:55:31 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <1ROjfC.A.8sE.7Dh1EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/2/06, Willis Jenkin wrote: > The Teflon pan may not be the best of containers to try your test in, I > might suggest a liter beaker or some HDPE container. What I have observed is > that a passive metal container is part of the circuit, if connected or not. > Over the years many a SS container has suffered microscopic pin holes when > being used in this way. Well, well, well. You were absolutely right. When I finished the experiment today and stored the water, I noticed some very small bubbles forming between the teflon and the aluminum. Doesn't look like it totally erupted, however; but, I think I'll seek out an HDPE container for stage two. Also, the adhesive gave out on one pair of plates. Further research indicates that 3M does not recommend it on SS. Go figure. I'm trying to decide whether to put a rubber band around it, tie a string around it, or just skip the 24 VDC test until I can rebuild the cell. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 09:16:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76GG15U030940; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 09:16:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76GG0ZU030916; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 09:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 09:16:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c6b973$959511b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20060806134522.61932.qmail web33302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 12:15:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MC: I'm reluctant to get involved in this area again, but some things need persepctive. I have seen the text of, but not studied, the new Correa patent. -------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Arnold To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Terry, Igor Alexeff invented the Plasma Discharge Tube that the Correas Borrowed and say they discovered it. please see this for yourself http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4291255 MC: I looked at the claims and description of the Alexeff device on the referenced link. There is no resemblance to the Correa PAGD, which is apparent if one studies the PAGD patentes, which I have done. Their thread of discovery as descrtibed to me by Paulo is utterly different from Alexeff. The Correas use of my Pulsed Plasma Drive to power their motor is the infringement. MC: The original PAGD patents and claims include driving a motor, which is also illustrated in a early video shown at a conference decades ago, The Pulsed Plasma Drive can never directly produce an abnormal glow discharge which is known of as a weak plasma, compared to the Dense Plasma Focus of my Pulsed Plasma Drive - which is an extremely powerful and energetic Plasma, capable of of D+D, D+T and even aneutronic fusion as I told Puthoff in 2000. MC: And Arnold is now making a clear distinction between his device and PAGD? The PAGD discharge releases much more energy than it takes to maintain the conditions for the effect to occur. If the Correa's PAGD Tube is so marvelous, why didn't it impress Eugene Mallove, considering Mallove flatly told me he did "not" believe my Spark Gap Drive (Pulsed Plasma Drive) would work at all. Jim from Sarasota attempted to get an interview with me published by Mallove, who still thought Dense Plasma Focus would never allow atomic Fusion - but it was all too much for Mallove to understand or believe. MC: Arnold is quite confused here. Mallove *was* impressed by PAGD, which as Arnold says is clearly different from his Dense Plasma Focus device. The Correa's new patent was applied after I first contacted them to explain how my device was different from the PADG tube, and did not even require containment or working gasses - which they did not believe. You can clearly see they believe me now. As for their work with Orgone boxes - please remember it is from the published works of Wilhelm Reich and the Correas only duplicated it, they did NOT discover anything new in that case, or in the case of my Plasma Drive. And yes - I believe that Reich's Orgone box works - but he had many other more obscure contraptions that worked just as well. Reich never mentioned using either AC or DC Electrical Pulses in his devices - and the Orgone device was not my machine, but a contraption that was based on Reich's Orgone theories (not electrical) - and quite strange looking when I first viewed it. MC: To my incomplete knowledge, the Correas are quite familiar with Reich's work. Their orgone box demonstrated a heat differential that was able to drive a simple Stirling engine. By the Correa's suggesting that Reich's works were connected in any way to using electrical driving power - they show themselves to have ZERO comprehension of Reich's true work or the energy involved. As I said, the Correa's are common folk. As for them using a Ouija board, dice or tarot cards for scientific insight - that is more likely than not. MC: This slam is utterly unjustified by volume of careful work represented in the Correa patents. I found the Correas quite sophisticated. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 6 16:05:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k76N5KRC013576; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:05:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k76N5ISn013546; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:05:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:05:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CtNxYmdNRW58rHB7aot6U2Igmofm5m8pYOIWaCsTD5sNBQxxfqDKyJW6Pkmg+dp2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200680623459931 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Biosol vs Hydrogen from Biomass and Coal Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:04:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d4164532285680d764fb32928cca527e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.182 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A couple more grinding/size-reduction steps beyond this to make a water-based aerosol (colloid dispersion) combined with ethanol or methanol to make it freeze-proof and it can be injected into the air intake or fuel injectors for burning in an ICE at a fraction of the invested energy. High pressure aqueous CO2 pretreatment can reduce ash. Biosol preheat off the engine cooling loop is a option Fred Hydrogen from Biomass and Coal: US 4,389,288 "The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the present invention include a wide variety of material such as bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons, coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust, wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems, husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene, cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such as methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of carbonaceous material for use according to this invention." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A couple more grinding/size-reduction steps beyond this to make a water-based
aerosol (colloid dispersion) combined with ethanol or methanol to make it
freeze-proof and it can be injected into the air intake or fuel injectors for
burning in an ICE at a fraction of the invested energy. High pressure
aqueous CO2 pretreatment can reduce ash.
 
Biosol preheat off the engine cooling loop is a option
 
Fred
 
Hydrogen from Biomass and Coal:
 
US 4,389,288
 
"The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the present invention include a wide variety of material such as bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons, coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust, wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems, husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene, cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such as methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of carbonaceous material for use according to this invention."
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 02:08:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7798Spx023124; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:08:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7798QdB023098; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:08:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:08:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Xyr+0lyuOoa6W+MJtvN6C7rIG1WA0adkTTQB4S6dEAc4ajKKOCwbOpUaRjU4qCi6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068179749468 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 03:07:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940be8cc78a880d58b841872ea647cbd827350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dust Thou Art, and Unto Dust Shalt Thou Return (In Somebody's Eternal Combustion Engine?) Fred Wet/Dry Grind Garbage: http://www.netzschusa.com/Grinding/Wetgrinddisp02.htm "All NETZSCH grinding machines are capable of obtaining a uniform particle size distribution in the micron and submicron (or nanometer) particle size range. Typically slurries are processed with 50 µm to 200 µm average particle size to less than 1 µm (submicron) average particle size. Slurries with particles as large as 2000 µm can be successfully processed to dispersions requiring 0.05 µm (50 nanometers) average particle size." http://www.warren-group.com/articles/grainpartI.html "Dust Explosions in General" "A dust explosion occurs when fine particles suspended in the air ignite and burn rapidly, causing a violent increase in pressure. In order to cause an explosion, the combustible mixture of air and dust must be contained in some type of vessel. Grains and other agricultural products are a common fuel for dust explosions due to the nature of their handling and storage. Any time that grain is handled or moved, potentially explosive dust is generated. The size of the dust particles also plays an important role in determining the severity of an explosion. A solid fuel only burns at its surface, where it is exposed to air. A cloud of very fine dust particles has a much greater surface area than a cloud of coarser particles. In addition, fine particles weigh less and tend to stay suspended in air longer. Generally speaking, particles smaller than 840 microns (0.033 inches) can be an explosion hazard." http://www.warren-group.com/articles/grainpartII.html "Of all types of dust explosions, those associated with grain dust are the most common and the most dangerous. Forty-eight percent of all dust explosions since 1900 have been associated with grain or other agricultural products. USDA statistics indicate that from 1958 to 1982, there have been 434 grain dust explosions, resulting in 776 injuries, 209 deaths, and millions of dollars in damage. Any time that grain is moved processed or handled, potentially combustible dust is generated. Air and ignition sources such as hot bearings and static electricity are inherently present in grain elevators, dryers and other basic handling equipment. Explosion and fire hazards exist anywhere that grain dust is present. Therefore, intelligent design, good safety practices, and careful housekeeping are necessary to prevent dangerous and costly accidents." Electrolyze Garbage to Hydrogen: US 4,608,137 (1986) (Chevron Research Co.) "The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the present invention include a wide variety of material such as bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons, coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust, wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems, husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene, cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such as ! ! methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of carbonaceous material for use according to this invention." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Dust Thou Art, and Unto Dust Shalt Thou Return
 
(In Somebody's Eternal Combustion Engine?)
 
Fred
 
Wet/Dry Grind Garbage:
 
 
"All NETZSCH grinding machines are capable of obtaining a uniform particle size distribution in the micron and submicron (or nanometer) particle size range. Typically slurries are processed with 50 µm to 200 µm average particle size to less than 1 µm (submicron) average particle size. Slurries with particles as large as 2000 µm can be successfully processed to dispersions requiring 0.05 µm (50 nanometers) average particle size."
 
 
"Dust Explosions in General"

"A dust explosion occurs when fine particles suspended in the air ignite and burn rapidly, causing a violent increase in pressure. In order to cause an explosion, the combustible mixture of air and dust must be contained in some type of vessel. Grains and other agricultural products are a common fuel for dust explosions due to the nature of their handling and storage. Any time that grain is handled or moved, potentially explosive dust is generated.

The size of the dust particles also plays an important role in determining the severity of an explosion. A solid fuel only burns at its surface, where it is exposed to air. A cloud of very fine dust particles has a much greater surface area than a cloud of coarser particles. In addition, fine particles weigh less and tend to stay suspended in air longer. Generally speaking, particles smaller than 840 microns (0.033 inches) can be an explosion hazard."
 
 
"Of all types of dust explosions, those associated with grain dust are the most common and the most dangerous. Forty-eight percent of all dust explosions since 1900 have been associated with grain or other agricultural products. USDA statistics indicate that from 1958 to 1982, there have been 434 grain dust explosions, resulting in 776 injuries, 209 deaths, and millions of dollars in damage. Any time that grain is moved processed or handled, potentially combustible dust is generated. Air and ignition sources such as hot bearings and static electricity are inherently present in grain elevators, dryers and other basic handling equipment. Explosion and fire hazards exist anywhere that grain dust is present. Therefore, intelligent design, good safety practices, and careful housekeeping are necessary to prevent dangerous and costly accidents."
 
 
Electrolyze Garbage to Hydrogen:

US 4,608,137    (1986)  (Chevron Research Co.)

"The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the present invention include a wide variety of material such as bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons, coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust, wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems, husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene, cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such as ! ! methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of carbonaceous material for use according to this invention."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 08:02:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77F0ZwW003032; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 08:01:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77EoYhN027301; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:50:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c6ba30$cc8802a0$99027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: OT: BP Alaska Pipeline shutdown ?? Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 09:50:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6BA06.E337C190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6BA06.E337C190 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6BA06.E337C190" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6BA06.E337C190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts.. Why do I get the feeling tha my chain is getting "yanked" by people a = whole lot smarter than me? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6BA06.E337C190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts..
 
Why do I get the feeling tha my chain is getting "yanked" by people = a whole=20 lot smarter than me?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6BA06.E337C190-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6BA06.E337C190 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c6ba30$cc0c42f0$99027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6BA06.E337C190-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 10:24:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77HOY0j009037; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:24:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77HOJdn008817; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:24:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:24:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D7642E.9010900 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:02:54 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes References: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/6/06, thomas malloy wrote: > >> Which brings me around to my questions. How difficult is it to >> recondition the magnets? > > > Niodymium Iron Boron magnets are usefull for about 125 years in a > Wow! So if Mark Goldes is right, this machine might just continue generating it's initial output energy for 125 years, by that time the rest of the machine will be worn out too. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 10:30:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77HTm2f013065; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:29:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77HTjMl013030; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:29:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:29:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UA7me3PAs4Rq0WaDIZcd8LxVPS9grfMpBwnSu12iraogUmgdnTiAYcH9KNXpdrQvsf3cUoyuhWYA4aIJgknDW+9FAnhe04DzIJPBqSckIbjbyrQQtLe+IwuOm/0M49z3eY1FUTsCkTkWrWfCkhm3Cmi1yGJVMrnjxUFAvjlScKs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:29:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: questions for Mark Goldes In-Reply-To: <44D7642E.9010900 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44D582B2.3020902 usfamily.net> <44D7642E.9010900 usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/7/06, thomas malloy wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > Niodymium [Neodymium] Iron Boron magnets are usefull for about 125 years > Wow! So if Mark Goldes is right, this machine might just continue > generating it's initial output energy for 125 years, by that time the > rest of the machine will be worn out too. Well, that would be true of a Sprain-type motor; but, Mark's generator is motionless and there is less strain on the magnetic domains; so, I think it would last much longer. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 12:21:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77JK6pt011710; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:21:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77IpviF025760; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:51:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:51:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=NNhnz3/Iw4bScPAhKJSRVgm/AKudZlKb3chv8wF7IMotrI6OUoz+chr2dAr/Arv8Zw9lfsEXHB/o76oHOlaSZD1cuY9LTLqaN8ZBQUWMLSrZ6yFxL/mFFwGMNgeS1S1KU1AO0TDlh/d4XjRBRIysYuQ+BXrLilRuIeiUmJ2/gIs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:11:45 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Room for All Status: O X-Status: http://www.casavaria.com/sentido/science/2006/06-0802-new-universe.htm PHYSICISTS IN JAPAN PLAN TO CREATE NEW UNIVERSE IN LAB USING THE HIGGS FIELD, SCIENTISTS THEORIZE IT IS POSSIBLE TO CAUSE A 'BABY UNIVERSE' TO BREAK OFF FROM OUR OWN, SAFELY 2 August 2006 A radical new project could permit human beings to create a "baby universe" in a laboratory in Japan. While it sounds like a dangerous undertaking, the physicists involved believe that if the project is successful, the space-time around a tiny point within our universe will be distorted in such a way that it will begin to form a new superfluid space, and eventually break off, separate in all respects from our experience of space and time, causing no harm to the fabric of our universe. The project takes as its starting point two basic theories about the foundations of our universe: the big bang and inflation theory. The big bang theory, as many readers are well aware, observes that all objects in the known universe appear to be moving away from one another, suggesting that the universe was jump-started when all matter and energy were concentrated in an inconceivably tiny space, allowing them to overcome binding forces and causing a cosmic explosion. "Cosmic explosion", yeah, that sounds safe! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 13:54:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77Ks1PM006157; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:54:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77Kru9v006110; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:53:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:53:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200608072053.k77Krl07004285 mail0.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:53:46 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_f94ef3c62e931d2112ec5b880061ebc8" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: CSICOP and CF Scheaffer discussing Prof Bockris Status: O X-Status: --=_f94ef3c62e931d2112ec5b880061ebc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I noticed that columnist-debunker, Robert Sheaffer, of CSICOP has written in his column, Psychic Vibrations, that Professor John Bockris of Texam A&M University has recently received Ig Nobel Prize. See: http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/sheaffer.html Needless to say, it is an unflattering account of Prof. Bockris' experimental accomplishments as well as inferred associations with questionable individuals, as detailed below. *********************************** See: Another advance in science receiving belated recognition involves Professor John Bockris of Texas A&M University, who was recently awarded the celebrated Ig Nobel Prize for Physics by the Annals of Improbable Research at Harvard. Bockris is a leading researcher in the field of cold fusion whose accomplishments have been prominently featured in Infinite Energy magazine. However, the prize was actually awarded for his experiments demonstrating the chemical transmutation of base metals into silver and gold. Bockris did not travel to Cambridge to pick up his prize. The money to fund Texas A&M University's 1993 ventures into alchemical research was donated by William Telander. The Houston Chronicle reported last April 3 that Telander was recently released from prison after serving two years for securities fraud. The university still holds $45,000 of his original $200,000 donation, and Telander wants it back unless it is used for its intended purpose -- funding Bockris's experiments. The university, however, has frozen the funds, apparently as nervous about funding more alchemy as it is about returning the money. *********************************** Jed and Ed's lenr-canr web site lists many intriguing research papers on the transmutation of certain metals, like the one titled "Replication of MHI Transmutation Experiment by D2 Gas Permeation Through Pd Complex", by a number of distinguished individuals. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Higashiyamreplicatio.pdf Experimental evidence of the transmutation of elements seems to revolve around lesser-known elements like changing Cesium (Cs) to Praseodymium (Pr). I can't even pronounce "Praseodymium", let alone recognize it. OTOH, searching the Lenr-Canr web site and entering in phrases like "Bockris" and "Gold" and "Silver" does bring up a number of surprising links. I find papers involving the use of elements like Gold, Silver, and Platinum and linking them to Prof. Bockris. However, it's not clear to me if Prof. Bokris' experimental objectives were to create base elements like gold and silver or whether these base elements are simply used in those experiments in order to facilitate the transmutation of other elements, like Iron. So, is Sheaffer's account of Bockris' work accurate, or is this just another example of Scheaffer at his finest. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_f94ef3c62e931d2112ec5b880061ebc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed that columnist-debunker, Robert Sheaffer, of CSICOP has written i= n his column, Psychic Vibrations, that Professor John Bockris of Texam A&M = University has recently received Ig Nobel Prize.

See: http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/sheaffer.html

Needless to say, it is an unflattering account of Prof. Bockris' experiment= al accomplishments as well as inferred associations with questionable indiv= iduals, as detailed below.

***********************************
See:

Another advance in science receiving belated recognition involves Professor= John Bockris of Texas A&M University, who was recently awarded the celebra= ted Ig Nobel Prize for Physics by the Annals of Improbable Research at Harv= ard. Bockris is a leading researcher in the field of cold fusion whose acco= mplishments have been prominently featured in Infinite Energy magazine. How= ever, the prize was actually awarded for his experiments demonstrating the = chemical transmutation of base metals into silver and gold. Bockris did not= travel to Cambridge to pick up his prize.

The money to fund Texas A&M University's 1993 ventures into alchemical rese= arch was donated by William Telander. The Houston Chronicle reported last A= pril 3 that Telander was recently released from prison after serving two ye= ars for securities fraud. The university still holds $45,000 of his origina= l $200,000 donation, and Telander wants it back unless it is used for its i= ntended purpose -- funding Bockris's experiments. The university, however, = has frozen the funds, apparently as nervous about funding more alchemy as i= t is about returning the money.

***********************************

Jed and Ed's lenr-canr web site lists many intriguing research papers on th= e transmutation of certain metals, like the one titled "Replication of MHI = Transmutation Experiment by D2 Gas Permeation Through Pd Complex", by a num= ber of distinguished individuals. See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Higashiyamreplicatio.pdf

Experimental evidence of the transmutation of elements seems to revolve aro= und lesser-known elements like changing Cesium (Cs) to Praseodymium (Pr). I= can't even pronounce "Praseodymium", let alone recognize it.

OTOH, searching the Lenr-Canr web site and entering in phrases like "Bockri= s" and "Gold" and "Silver" does bring up a number of surprising links. I fi= nd papers involving the use of elements like Gold, Silver, and Platinum and= linking them to Prof. Bockris. However, it's not clear to me if Prof. Bokr= is' experimental objectives were to create base elements like gold and silv= er or whether these base elements are simply used in those experiments in o= rder to facilitate the transmutation of other elements, like Iron.

So, is Sheaffer's account of Bockris' work accurate, or is this just anothe= r example of Scheaffer at his finest.


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_f94ef3c62e931d2112ec5b880061ebc8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 15:19:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k77MJUgf023328; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:19:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k77MJSuJ023304; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:19:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:19:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Room for All Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:18:52 -1000 Organization: Highsurf.com Message-ID: <003801c6ba6f$7919ada0$7d01a8c0 RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: Aca6Vpss67q+Fm/NQBej2S7/WB+kBwAGKPXg X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kappa.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <-WV-4.A.AsF.wx71EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Duh-oh, stoopid Tralfamadorian pilot *ALWAYS* pushes that danged button... -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:12 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Room for All http://www.casavaria.com/sentido/science/2006/06-0802-new-universe.htm PHYSICISTS IN JAPAN PLAN TO CREATE NEW UNIVERSE IN LAB USING THE HIGGS FIELD, SCIENTISTS THEORIZE IT IS POSSIBLE TO CAUSE A 'BABY UNIVERSE' TO BREAK OFF FROM OUR OWN, SAFELY 2 August 2006 A radical new project could permit human beings to create a "baby universe" in a laboratory in Japan. While it sounds like a dangerous undertaking, the physicists involved believe that if the project is successful, the space-time around a tiny point within our universe will be distorted in such a way that it will begin to form a new superfluid space, and eventually break off, separate in all respects from our experience of space and time, causing no harm to the fabric of our universe. The project takes as its starting point two basic theories about the foundations of our universe: the big bang and inflation theory. The big bang theory, as many readers are well aware, observes that all objects in the known universe appear to be moving away from one another, suggesting that the universe was jump-started when all matter and energy were concentrated in an inconceivably tiny space, allowing them to overcome binding forces and causing a cosmic explosion. "Cosmic explosion", yeah, that sounds safe! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 20:19:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k783J8gO014181; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:19:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k783J2Ku014129; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:19:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:19:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Room for All Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:18:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well not really break off, eh? Can't stand it when they dumb it down for us stupid people... Essentially they will attempt to create a singularity and try to contain it. Problem is, will effects from 'our universe' have any effect on this singularity (other than feed it matter and energy)? Isn't that the point and definition of what they are trying to do? Not a sub-set of our system, a distinct and separate system with an event horizon. Can't wait for the black hole to get here I guess... Upside is we pretty much would solve the whole global warming thing in the blink of an eye. ;^) Not sure if there are any graphic novel guys on the list, but back in the mid-80's DC published a 4 book series called Gilgamesh II. Not sure why they picked the name they did, but the story line pretty much goes along the same line as this news report. It wasn't Japan, but Russia. The resulting 'industrial accident' wasn't a black hole, but a nothing sphere that swallowed up and remained in the better parts of what was known as the USSR at the time. Anything that went in, never came out again. It just stopped existing from this side of the event horizon. Gilgamesh, the doomed hero eventually enters to explore and return only to find no escape in the timeless, eventless, matterless zone. A place where he eventually goes mad and perishes. Lovely story overall... -j -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:12 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Room for All http://www.casavaria.com/sentido/science/2006/06-0802-new-universe.htm PHYSICISTS IN JAPAN PLAN TO CREATE NEW UNIVERSE IN LAB USING THE HIGGS FIELD, SCIENTISTS THEORIZE IT IS POSSIBLE TO CAUSE A 'BABY UNIVERSE' TO BREAK OFF FROM OUR OWN, SAFELY 2 August 2006 A radical new project could permit human beings to create a "baby universe" in a laboratory in Japan. While it sounds like a dangerous undertaking, the physicists involved believe that if the project is successful, the space-time around a tiny point within our universe will be distorted in such a way that it will begin to form a new superfluid space, and eventually break off, separate in all respects from our experience of space and time, causing no harm to the fabric of our universe. The project takes as its starting point two basic theories about the foundations of our universe: the big bang and inflation theory. The big bang theory, as many readers are well aware, observes that all objects in the known universe appear to be moving away from one another, suggesting that the universe was jump-started when all matter and energy were concentrated in an inconceivably tiny space, allowing them to overcome binding forces and causing a cosmic explosion. "Cosmic explosion", yeah, that sounds safe! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 23:35:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k786ZTHM009226; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:35:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k786ZRfQ009209; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:35:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:35:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44D8308E.7000706 usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 01:34:54 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Room for All References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6ITbC.A.1PC.vCD2EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Essentially they will attempt to create a singularity and try to contain it. > > >"Cosmic explosion", yeah, that sounds safe! > >Terry > > > > Some of you Vortexians, may remember the posts I did when I purchased the book about the space drive. The physicist's idea was to create a singularity. My comment was it would have to be done in a vacuum chamber, Otherwise, IMHO, it would start sucking the atmosphere into itself, but then I'm just a dumb technician, what do I know? The physicist poo pooded my objections. I'd hate be be his insurance carrier if I'm right. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 02:55:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k789tQuV010998; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:55:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k789tPbe010977; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:55:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:55:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Nlk8tHWsq0GeQgFpwCnEjWYoeH89ryx4kFqwN9RbCBoH9VdnJhF3/633d2pwjft8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068289551385 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 03:55:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940da2e4b25a177340763fad044551be12f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.57 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Joe Cell Phase II & Dipolar Moment in Water Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Earlier Posts: "1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". My Conclusion: The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels) that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water. Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters. The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about 750 kJ/mole of ions formed. * Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less." Pretty Pictures of water "NanoPolymers".(GSU): http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/diph2o.html "The dipolar interaction between water molecules represents a large amount of internal energy and is a factor in water's large specific heat. The dipole moment of water provides a "handle" for interaction with microwave electric fields in a microwave oven. Microwaves can add energy to the water molecules, whereas molecules with no dipole moment would be unaffected." Terry's Posted Pictures: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Setup_small.JPG http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Tiny_Bubbles.jpg http://geocities.com/terry1094/wtrchg.jpg http://www.thejoecell.com Terry's Plate Voltages: But I don't have Excel. :-( http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/JC_Plate_Voltages.xls ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Earlier Posts:
 
"1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
 
2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ".
3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
 
4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
 
My Conclusion:
 
The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)
that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization"
and Hydration of the water.
 
Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0* even when all of the water is "activated" into
a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about
750 kJ/mole of ions formed.
* Dissolved CO2 , NOx, & SO2 will lower the pH to 5.7 or less."
 
Pretty Pictures of water "NanoPolymers".(GSU):
 
 
"The dipolar interaction between water molecules represents a large amount of internal energy and is a factor in water's large specific heat. The dipole moment of water provides a "handle" for interaction with microwave electric fields in a microwave oven. Microwaves can add energy to the water molecules, whereas molecules with no dipole moment would be unaffected."
 
Terry's Posted Pictures:
 
Terry's Plate Voltages: But I don't have Excel.  :-(
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 09:38:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k78GcF2v029690; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k78GcDOc029661; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:38:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060808121643.040a2678 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:17:10 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Concord Monitor article about Mallove Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/REPOSITORY/608080316&SearchID=73253143338110 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 15:42:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k78Mg8QW022668; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:42:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k78Mg5pH022643; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:42:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=TOPYcyKRZeBp2I75bblNU8/oxsIJjb/4N8IFYhKK724zGyEGkDYTsaM3eYpBqxImhEcMdGPTKFYt3jNx9CElsg62FurIbzQqXHckWrJH7cGfQeikvEG3fyg7Rlm4wV3uos4nqNiLcNlUl0sNSeDGWJq2cPiNKEItH79no7iwqdE= ; Message-ID: <20060808224205.20581.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:42:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: As far back as the Grove Cell, it was clear that there was a large area of *crossover* between the battery - the fuel cell- and the electrolysis cell... "Large area" being the relevant concept. In many cases, each device can function as the other with small changes in chemistry or separation membranes - especially when we replace (acid or base) ions with (nominally) uncharged colloids. Colloidal Electrolysis - i.e. water splitting using colloids has "High Potential and Comparison With Traditional Electrolysis" which is the title of a nearly forty year old seminal paper on the subject - largely neglected ... except by a recently formed Texas Company which, it seems, wants to pretend that they invented the whole thing. That company is called AirGen: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11039 It is a great idea - basically a battery that produces hydrogen instead of electricity - as the Grove cell did (inadvertently at times) but this is not unique - except in perhaps the nanochemistry of the colloids being used, and one suspects the company is treading on thin-ice in the "prior art" department... anyway - is it true overunity? Colloidal electrolysis was invented in Japan and England simultaneously in 1968. It attempts to employ the enormous surface area and near fields of dispersed particles (acres per gram) catalytically to improve efficiency. Until recently no hint of overunity was ever admitted. Rumors coming from my contacts in the fair city of Austin suggest that a major announcement is due soon which will not mince words in this regard. Hope the genius Randi has his ink-pen ready to either put-up (with lots of zeros on the check) or shut-up. My advice is to wait for the H-prize, but they probably suspect that it will get Bush-hogged. Of course, one might say that - in the unit seen in the above cited article, or most likely its improve successor device, that the colloids are being "used up" even if that takes many hours - and that is partly true. Stefan Hartmann's comment at the bottom was close to being on-target, but I do not think he realized then how little energy is required to replenish the spent colloids... One can look at OU as a total-systems approach, no? or is that Randi's "out" to penning the big check ? ... or else, is this rumor just one more bright flash in the pan - one that seems to be "pointing the way" - the way to OU that is using the special features of H2O - but "are we there yet? " ...kind of an annoying phrase, isn't it? even if you are not on an a road-trip vacataion with a carload of brats... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 18:23:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k791N6Sf012792; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:23:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k791N4Ix012742; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:23:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:23:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1469550748.1155086577831.JavaMail.root fepweb05> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:22:57 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Are we there yet? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Jones Beene wrote: ... > Colloidal Electrolysis - i.e. water splitting using > colloids has "High Potential and Comparison With > Traditional Electrolysis" which is the title of a > nearly forty year old seminal paper on the subject - > largely neglected ... except by a recently formed > Texas Company which, it seems, wants to pretend that > they invented the whole thing. That company is called > AirGen: > > http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11039 > ... Hi Jones, This is certainly a surprise to me. It's almost as if any hint of OU is purposely being obfuscated so as not to raise the hackles of the fundamentalist scientific establishment. Kind of amusing in a way. Get the product out in the public. Get the hydrogen generating process independently verified and then firmly established as a perfectly legitimate and acceptable process, and THEN, let the cat out of the bag! No way to put genie back in! But that's just my devious mind at work. I especially found the following comment intriguing: "The latest demonstration unit, which has a reaction solution volume of 250mL, has produced hydrogen continuously for 15 days now powering a fuel cell at ambient temperature without any external power input. The company believes the rate generation can be enhanced by a factor of at least five times through enhanced cell designs." * * * * * Here are some additional links: Another AirGen Article from EV WORLD: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=12368 or http://tinyurl.com/raell >From Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/prnewswire/feeds/prnewswire/2006/07/05/prnewswire200607051257PR_NEWS_B_SWT_DA_DAW034.html or http://tinyurl.com/n2xqa >From FUEL CELL TODAY: http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/IndustryDirectoryDisplayCompany/0,1664,3116,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/ocq3s CHEMIE.DE (Lab Circle.net) http://www.chemie.de/news/e/56111/?pw=a&defop=and&wild=yes&sdate=01/01/1995&edate=08/01/2006 or http://tinyurl.com/md4ly >From PRAXAIR http://praxair.com/praxair.nsf/7a1106cc7ce1c54e85256a9c005accd7/c4bb5b6f18de94f985256c86006f2d9b?OpenDocument or http://tinyurl.com/nntvj >From FuelCellWorks: http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage4545.html Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 02:37:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k799bIIg005965; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 02:37:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k799bGYI005940; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 02:37:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 02:37:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FgI6B2PAFML2zVqCFZIaQPT5U4GpbPsI60CE+E5y9InqNdQqT9PDKEPkQxBTjUHh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200683993635338 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 03:36:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406864f82a9e6c91b6f7a0f685baafd743350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: [Vo]: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Colloidal electrolysis was invented in Japan and > England simultaneously in 1968. It attempts to employ > the enormous surface area and near fields of dispersed > particles (acres per gram) catalytically to improve > efficiency. > A dissolved gas is considered to be a Colloid, Jones CO2 + H2O <----> H2O:CO2 or H2CO3 aq ( Ki 4.3E-7) NH3 + H2O <----> H2O:NH3 or NH4OH aq (Ki 1.8E-5) SO2 + H2O <----> H2O:SO2 or H2SO3 aq Ki (1.2E-2) Water Solubility Data: http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/encyclopedia.asp The Ionization Constants for these are quite small compared to the mineral acids. OTOH: 2 H2O <----> H2O:H2O Dimer (Ki 1.0E-14) allows formation of H3O+:OH- ion species. Might you burn a pre-conditioned Carbonated Water Mix in an ICE? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Colloidal electrolysis was invented in Japan and
> England simultaneously in 1968. It attempts to employ
> the enormous surface area and near fields of dispersed
> particles (acres per gram) catalytically to improve
> efficiency.
>
A dissolved gas is considered to be a Colloid, Jones
 
CO2 + H2O <---->  H2O:CO2  or H2CO3 aq  ( Ki 4.3E-7)
 
NH3 + H2O <---->  H2O:NH3 or  NH4OH aq  (Ki 1.8E-5)
 
SO2 + H2O <----> H2O:SO2  or  H2SO3 aq   Ki (1.2E-2)
 
Water Solubility Data:
 
 
The Ionization Constants for these are quite small compared to
the mineral acids.
 
OTOH:    2 H2O <---->  H2O:H2O  Dimer  (Ki 1.0E-14) allows
formation of H3O+:OH-  ion species.
 
Might you burn a pre-conditioned Carbonated Water Mix  in an ICE?
 
Fred
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 05:06:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79C5vk0004647; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:05:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79C5uVr004636; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:05:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c6bbac$1c836520$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Are we there yet? Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:04:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BB82.1B1BD7F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BB82.1B1BD7F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BB82.1B1D5E90" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BB82.1B1D5E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Reduced to application, the Coleman Powermate AirGen idea is a 1000 watt = non-portable electric generator. Praxair will package the device with a = botttle of hydrogen gas( under high pressure) and market it nationwide.=20 A high pressure cylinder of hydrogen gas? For standby power source for a = computer ? When I sit down to my "puter" I do not wish to have a = hydrogen cylinder between my legs .. or anywhere close.. these things = leak and go "boom in the night". Some of us kids in Texas ain't got a = lick of sense but we ain't crazy. Now if you want to discuss colloid.. well.. once when we were kids and = the strip down 34 model chev we used to hunt ducks in the rice fields = wouldn't start, we found the battery was dry. Shazzaam ! A little squirt = of pi*s in the battery did wonders. Colloids in actions.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BB82.1B1D5E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Reduced to application, the Coleman Powermate AirGen idea is a 1000 = watt=20 non-portable electric generator. Praxair will package the device with a = botttle=20 of hydrogen gas( under high pressure) and market it nationwide. =
 
A high pressure cylinder of hydrogen gas? For standby power source = for a=20 computer ? When I sit down to my "puter" I do not wish to have a = hydrogen=20 cylinder between my legs .. or anywhere close.. these things leak and go = "boom=20 in the night". Some of us kids in Texas ain't got a lick of sense but we = ain't=20 crazy.
 
Now if you want to discuss colloid.. well.. once when we were kids = and the=20 strip down 34 model chev we used to hunt ducks in the rice fields = wouldn't=20 start, we found the battery was dry. Shazzaam ! A little squirt of = pi*s in=20 the battery did wonders. Colloids in actions.
 
Richard
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BB82.1B1D5E90-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BB82.1B1BD7F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c6bbac$03dafc90$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BB82.1B1BD7F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 05:25:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79COuR3013112; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:24:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79COttD013094; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:24:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 05:24:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DovvZA/AbSUVG9c1wYZ5sodcl0MLmzQxuvXu1KcHeoAjcydQY1E8XLPtq+jzUAbJN+k10cb0aedAt6wtESFjFP7Nc7/AdyW8vQdExHAXRMixqaWWavd5TQB2qUeg4Qcz1uptp0RzdNiW4ER6nTmEKvMbTbtnZ1D3SjsDU3V/+O0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:24:53 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Are we there yet? In-Reply-To: <001001c6bbac$1c836520$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001001c6bbac$1c836520$0100007f xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/9/06, RC Macaulay wrote: > Now if you want to discuss colloid.. well.. once when we were kids and the > strip down 34 model chev we used to hunt ducks in the rice fields wouldn't > start, we found the battery was dry. Shazzaam ! A little squirt of pi*s in > the battery did wonders. Colloids in actions. Howdy Richard, You're lucky you didn't get any feedback like the time I wet an electric cattle fence. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 06:31:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79DUvbS014883; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:30:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79DUtA2014864; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:30:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:30:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BUey/+wi9ZxnfHftW0401g96B9t0ORaC+OJ7hIeNrFSOcfmK91fxhjZWK14f8Dq0aDrISzk9EDBi9n/75UQCQ/Inl0gEVaMsZf3lQ/DPWeP7lB+f4TN+cJeXNndQAxKB9GKmmAz1rjzPWghaG9/tVvY1+4tsPCn1M34jF7nToXA= ; Message-ID: <20060809133054.91156.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <1469550748.1155086577831.JavaMail.root fepweb05> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: --- OrionWorks wrote: [listing of related stories] > http://tinyurl.com/md4ly This one is interesting, Steven: "Hydrogen is the primary feedstock material for ammonia production and ammonia is the feedstock for LSB's Chemical Business' nitrogen based chemical products, such as nitric acid and nitrogen based blasting products and fertilizers. The technology is in the early, developmental stage and has not been proven by LSB to have commercial value. " LSB and other makers of ammonia products get hydrogen now by stipping natural gas - by far the cheapest way. They are protected from the recent run-up in natural gas prices by long term contracts, which are not being offered by the gas producers any longer due to changes in the supply/demand situation. LSB discloses that the new process of water separation has not been proven economical, and it would be surprising if it were already competetive, but the fact that they licensed it at all is probably significant in itself - as no one has more incentive to seek the lowest price then the few large consumers of hydrogen who make fertilizer. It is a small indicator that AirGen may be onto something and is approaching this in a direct way which only a potentially competetive process can do, and which normal electrolysis is an order of magnitude too expensive to do, by comparison (with normal methane stripping). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 06:42:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79Dfa8h020009; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:41:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79DfUw3019953; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:41:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:41:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200608091341.k79DfPCU087509 mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:41:25 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_6f7e291e73c9c26efab6d75f1f51d0a2" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: [VO]:Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: --=_6f7e291e73c9c26efab6d75f1f51d0a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> You're lucky you didn't get any feedback like the time I wet an
> electric cattle fence.
>
> Terry


And then there's the account I recall where a guy hotwired the leg of his grand piano, the favorite stop-by post for his pet Fido. Thirty minutes, and one brief yelp later, problem solved.

Grand piano and Fido are doing well, in their separate corners.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_6f7e291e73c9c26efab6d75f1f51d0a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> You're lucky you didn't get any feedback like the time I wet an
> electric cattle fence.
>
> Terry


And th= en there's the account I recall where a guy hotwired the leg of his grand p= iano, the favorite stop-by post for his pet Fido. Thirty minutes, and one b= rief yelp later, problem solved.

Grand piano and Fido are doing well,= in their separate corners.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_6f7e291e73c9c26efab6d75f1f51d0a2-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 06:47:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79DlM1Q023796; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:47:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79DlK2q023774; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:47:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:47:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=slvbvPWLq8JmbMbyKxFoUZnel4sv9qzJPafoTeHfY47i8GtD2JNIniSZG3L7varsviquZ1FnCs1RWbML4sETVy3sXEZgs9sd/RR0c2Z5lJqOvBV1OP7mc+mE/h/C8Y+VtbGQw0YRHJQe5Sqnf6rCILFZf4GeJwq6ZDNTjOT97E8= ; Message-ID: <20060809134719.99584.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060809133054.91156.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: Here is the site to Griffin's (AirGen) main patent application: http://tinyurl.com/jdpco or http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Linnard.IN.&s2=Griffin.IN.&OS=IN/Linnard+AND+IN/Griffin&RS=IN/Linnard+AND+IN/Griffin Claims 1. An apparatus for the production of hydrogen, comprising: a solution with a pH less than 7; a first colloidal metal suspended in the solution; and a non-colloidal metal. 2. The apparatus of claim 1, wherein the first colloidal metal is less reactive than the non-colloidal metal. 3. The apparatus of claim 1, wherein the first colloidal metal is more reactive than the non-colloidal metal. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 07:35:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79EJdEQ009706; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:19:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79EJaHt009661; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:19:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:19:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mTvcRyvr/mMlK4Fu+goA7KGETXU5iDqX0do+WUp3KOQFt6zfjoxMVl9lnFLIYtscbwDp6D6zOnuyP0hKnh10eI7gs5rNv5VcfnoAP005I0Ew6U1bQHcIqnHEix/ty55YUnRw0s/49/SHG3gh+IOcrRocEspWhXKpbmry370Idc4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:19:32 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? In-Reply-To: <20060809134719.99584.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060809133054.91156.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060809134719.99584.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/9/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Here is the site to Griffin's (AirGen) main patent > application: > > http://tinyurl.com/jdpco Here is the patent in .pdf format: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Colloidal_HoD.pdf I'm not so sure what is so great about it other than you can get hydrogen on demand. The process is either endothermic and/or consumptive of resources. There are not efficiency figures that I can find. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 08:22:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79FMNGO018869; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:22:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79FMKdl018843; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:22:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:22:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X/e1mZ5uDvzc58hVnW11rjPvK9lr88viaTr3VZFyfVbLtdFl8CCHB54nFpgQK4RR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006839152156427 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:21:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406c280f7f77d3f561c00cfdd456c7a100350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.248 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 8/9/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > Here is the site to Griffin's (AirGen) main patent > > application: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/jdpco > > Here is the patent in .pdf format: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Colloidal_HoD.pdf > > I'm not so sure what is so great about it other than you can get > hydrogen on demand. The process is either endothermic and/or > consumptive of resources. There are not efficiency figures that I can > find. Me neither, you can dissolve Zinc, or Aluminum beer cans in a warm aqueous NaOH or KOH (lye) solution in a steel vessel and generate H2 like gangbusters . This forms a water soluble Zincate or Aluminate "Catalyst". Fred > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 08:59:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79FwgKQ005356; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:58:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79FwdZI005308; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:58:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Uh3UO2qWqwp9gZzy8ERXYRGF2CYL30GEDn73b13oCTnCcHWbiWL5/ciH4jpwBiGWOshb7VY3UjG0cVlEpE3KDmKBlGstZAKJEQPxmGEzzn+A5cS7hy5qIW2waquUgV+hO1V00+DWvoUgnLY2LVyTaFMJvSRXXIJi9VvsI/K2UUI= ; Message-ID: <20060809155834.62186.qmail web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > I'm not so sure what is so great about it other than you can get hydrogen on demand. The process is either endothermic and/or consumptive of resources. There are not efficiency figures that I can find. Best I can tell, the inventor was supplying (or inventing) EDM fluids for some years, and has patents in that field. He probably discovered that more hydrogen was being evolved in certain situations than desireable for EDM, and then decided to try to exploit that situation for generating hydrogen, as the enegy crisis has evolved. I am not surprised that the efficiency numbers are not included in the patent (since there is no good reason to do so), but certainly this efficiency figure would be most important to the manufacturer who makes fertilizer and needs hydrogen by the ton... That demo, from the original reference, with the H2 generator --> FC driving the fan was cute - but essentially meaningless even if it works for 300-400 hours at a time- and since there was no apparent vent for O2, then the iron colloid must be consumed in the process... which would stongly limit the ultimate usefulness, if the oxide could not be recycled in a secondary system... (and - for what would amount to a combined Faradaic efficiency which was significantly better than elctrolysis alone) ... which ... that efficiency being "doable" is the gist of the rumor which is circulating... But speaking of Texas rumor, what happened to the 'Bettery' startup company EEStor ? http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141599010468&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist971715454851 IOW the AirGen system - as a battery substitute- if it could be "recharged at night" then that is an advantage over Lithium-ion, since it is 2-8 times lighter per kilowatt, even with the required fuelcell. But the cost of the fuel cell, and the need for platinum/palladium is still the looming problem. October platinum is $1,258 while palladium is $322 an ounce. But when Pd demand increases slightly (as it has done on occassion) it can easily top $1000. A long-lived one kW fuel cell requires about a tenth-ounce of either but the problem is that : increased-demand --> exponentially higher metal prices. Try pricing a one kW fuelcell. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 09:13:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79GCtVx012835; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:12:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79GCsVu012818; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:12:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:12:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GZbPB/PgJMj06A3a6OlGannBNiwXCPTLaCVD6Xd6o0YhOuuGNgEmFIjmiWl1HIhetfMe6CIEsYXNrwj4l31wD3JUBvvUYJtT7ahvNL4orYo1UUPu57+t8q5jpDIBsCe7cPig8cgNB5t4VS0odj1QE7ZT0X6MhcahOW+dyFgEKoQ= ; Message-ID: <20060809161252.54647.qmail web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:12:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060809155834.62186.qmail web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: Speaking of that demo, from the original reference, with the H2 generator --> driving the fuel cell, powering the fan etc; which is admittedly meaningless even if it works for 300-400 hours at a time - OK...but to the "Futurist" in all of us - imagine that kind of thing with heavy water and with a colloid which is active for LENR - ... that is the kind of thing which many of us have been hoping for with regard to an advance in CF - IOW not just a "hot water heater" but a system which can produce H2 on demand for a very long time. Now to return to AirGen for a moment- ...obviously, this is no more than speculaation BUT given the resistence to CF in the scinetific community - even if they suspected that LENR (or hydrinos) was the effective modality at work - do you really think they would be foolisih enough to mention it? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 16:54:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k79NsaV2024507; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:54:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k79NsTiK024451; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:54:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:54:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Mt1LGFMXguX1J/HcC4C3StDcfJ5bvau1sPNdgCfRUPUIcb7eWR+yqsPYBj4CbfKKTc73ccVm/qXObTYRSF3SJ5WYsaIL4ft9a65WdFaAA9zcGOda6mgUaUWwYchJ1znBen0ZtOKz19CkxRhfQK9qPgJnh1ClGydkWvxLWqcZsN0= ; Message-ID: <20060809235428.46248.qmail web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060809161252.54647.qmail web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <6kVrZC.A.19F.1Wn2EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Status: O X-Status: Speaking of the subcategory of H2 generators which use an intermediary (but recyclable) REACTIVE element to reduce water, there is another such possibility in the news this week ... This boron--> boron oxide scheme was developed by Tareq Abu-Hamed, University of Minnesota and colleagues at the Weizmann Institute, Israel. By reacting water with the element boron, the system produces on-demand hydrogen that can be burnt in an internal combustion engine or feed a fuel cell to generate electricity, folowing which the boron is itself recycled in an external device and reduced to elemental, in an efficient but complicated system. The hydrogen-on-demand approach is based on basic chemistry, but unlike elements: aluminum, sodium and potassium which are well-known for their violent reactions with water - boron does the same but at a more manageable pace. The by-product, boron oxide, can be removed from the car, turned back into boron, and used again, hopefully in a night-time system using off-peak power using an automatic system. The water has to be supplied as vapor heated to several hundred degrees, so the car will still require start-up heat, possibly from a hybrid design with biodiesel. Once the engine is running, the heat generated by the exothermic oxidation reaction between boron and water is enough. The Weizmann team calculates that a car would have to carry 18 kg of boron and 45 liters of water to produce 5 kg of hydrogen, which has the same energy content as a 40-liters (11 gallon) of gasoline. The cost of the gasoline can be figured at least $35.00, while the electrical energy is convert boron oxide back to boron would be about $10 or less a nighttime rate of 10 cents/kWh. Lead acid batteries to do the same mileage would weigh about a ton and lithium about 500 pounds - and cost about more than a normal Prius, just for the batteries. There is something to these two stories - the AirGen colloidal story and this one, which overlap in an important way - and it makes even the "Bettery-advocate" believe that there are other acceptable "solutions" [PI] for transportation power. Now if this could only be combined with LENR/hydrino ?? BTW - the De Geus alternative hydrino theory mentioned here some time ago claims that boron is an effective hydrio catalyst. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 20:32:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7A3WBWF002403; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:32:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7A3W8K7002363; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:32:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:32:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Vortices & Charged Water Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:32:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 10 Aug 2006 03:32:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7A3W4G0002318 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Willis Jenkin's message of Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:55:44 -0700: Hi Willis, [snip] >Robin! > >On your response to my posting on ‘some’ in the field using pulsed DC and >still obtaining gas production (H2, O2), below 1.2V, please be assured that >it was not measured with a DC volt meter, more like a $25K US Tek Scope and >followed with a standard formula of Vrms=Sqrt(y/x)* Vp, where Vp is the >pulse max V, y is the pulse width and x is leading edge to leading edge. Does this mean that the 1.2 V you were referring to was Vrms or peak? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 20:36:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7A3aB6e004019; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:36:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7A3aAf1004003; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:36:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:36:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1XuDYuQqlAQeD1ChX4IMVmTJWO91nNwrgVSgEkAaPjZNjeStB/kWR8ffUYMAOHLLochrLj5QPH7UuAvgyY1oJE40A5WZ9eTLnlSZowM4bywBILqx2jEG13q0A3/ApuenHHcl2EoezzykaCh5cDS6ulqzQYCQUQwTAkxyQrm9y2w= ; Message-ID: <20060810033609.85389.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:36:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003401c6b973$959511b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1106174249-1155180969=:84390" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1106174249-1155180969=:84390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, As you said, you did not study the Correa patent yet insisted in commenting anyway - which was completely your mistake. To begin with - they are without any doubt using the Alexeff "Plasma Discharge Tube." Look at this was - the wheel is invented and someone eventually uses that wheel on a cart. They are still USING the wheel which was not their discovery. Second, the Correa's are calling it an Orgone Motor, however Reich never used electricity to either create or use Orgone - therefore the Correa's are lying about it's connection to Reich. Others have clearly stated that the Correa's are extremely rude, arrogant and down right nasty people that care only about themselves - and I have provided a post from them that proves this is true. Forget about their theft of my discoveries - they are lying about Orgone operating their device, because it is operated by electricity as clearly stated in the patent - NOT ORGONE. Lastly - I never said that these clowns did not duplicate Reich's discovery of heat rise within the orgone box, in fact I have also duplicated this and it proves Reich was onto something big, but the Correa's are just goofy. I told them I could rebuild the Orgone motor and they assumed that I was talking about my device - however these clowns are completely mistaken because what I proposed to them was not powered by electricity at all, but after their slanderous post calling ME a liar, I decided it was best to forget about further dealings with crazies like the Correa's. The application date of the Correa's new patent is AFTER I first called them to explain how my device works, and I guess they liked it enough to steal my Plasma Drive and couple it with their copy of the Alexeff Plasma Discharge Tube. Mike - since you still think the Correa's PAGD motor of the past was OU, exactly how much did you invest in this Seminole, Earth saving technology? Chris Mike Carrell wrote: MC: I'm reluctant to get involved in this area again, but some things need persepctive. I have seen the text of, but not studied, the new Correa patent. -------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Arnold To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Terry, Igor Alexeff invented the Plasma Discharge Tube that the Correas Borrowed and say they discovered it. please see this for yourself http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4291255 MC: I looked at the claims and description of the Alexeff device on the referenced link. There is no resemblance to the Correa PAGD, which is apparent if one studies the PAGD patentes, which I have done. Their thread of discovery as descrtibed to me by Paulo is utterly different from Alexeff. The Correas use of my Pulsed Plasma Drive to power their motor is the infringement. MC: The original PAGD patents and claims include driving a motor, which is also illustrated in a early video shown at a conference decades ago, The Pulsed Plasma Drive can never directly produce an abnormal glow discharge which is known of as a weak plasma, compared to the Dense Plasma Focus of my Pulsed Plasma Drive - which is an extremely powerful and energetic Plasma, capable of of D+D, D+T and even aneutronic fusion as I told Puthoff in 2000. MC: And Arnold is now making a clear distinction between his device and PAGD? The PAGD discharge releases much more energy than it takes to maintain the conditions for the effect to occur. If the Correa's PAGD Tube is so marvelous, why didn't it impress Eugene Mallove, considering Mallove flatly told me he did "not" believe my Spark Gap Drive (Pulsed Plasma Drive) would work at all. Jim from Sarasota attempted to get an interview with me published by Mallove, who still thought Dense Plasma Focus would never allow atomic Fusion - but it was all too much for Mallove to understand or believe. MC: Arnold is quite confused here. Mallove *was* impressed by PAGD, which as Arnold says is clearly different from his Dense Plasma Focus device. The Correa's new patent was applied after I first contacted them to explain how my device was different from the PADG tube, and did not even require containment or working gasses - which they did not believe. You can clearly see they believe me now. As for their work with Orgone boxes - please remember it is from the published works of Wilhelm Reich and the Correas only duplicated it, they did NOT discover anything new in that case, or in the case of my Plasma Drive. And yes - I believe that Reich's Orgone box works - but he had many other more obscure contraptions that worked just as well. Reich never mentioned using either AC or DC Electrical Pulses in his devices - and the Orgone device was not my machine, but a contraption that was based on Reich's Orgone theories (not electrical) - and quite strange looking when I first viewed it. MC: To my incomplete knowledge, the Correas are quite familiar with Reich's work. Their orgone box demonstrated a heat differential that was able to drive a simple Stirling engine. By the Correa's suggesting that Reich's works were connected in any way to using electrical driving power - they show themselves to have ZERO comprehension of Reich's true work or the energy involved. As I said, the Correa's are common folk. As for them using a Ouija board, dice or tarot cards for scientific insight - that is more likely than not. MC: This slam is utterly unjustified by volume of careful work represented in the Correa patents. I found the Correas quite sophisticated. Mike Carrell --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-1106174249-1155180969=:84390 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mike,
 
As you said, you did not study the Correa patent yet insisted in commenting anyway - which was completely your mistake. To begin with - they are without any doubt using the Alexeff "Plasma Discharge Tube." Look at this was - the wheel is invented and someone eventually uses that wheel on a cart. They are still USING the wheel which was not their discovery.
 
Second, the Correa's are calling it an Orgone Motor, however Reich never used electricity to either create or use Orgone - therefore the Correa's are lying about it's connection to Reich.
 
Others have clearly stated that the Correa's are extremely rude, arrogant and down right nasty people that care only about themselves - and I have provided a post from them that proves this is true.
 
Forget about their theft of my discoveries - they are lying about Orgone operating their device, because it is operated by electricity as clearly stated in the patent - NOT ORGONE.
 
Lastly - I never said that these clowns did not duplicate Reich's discovery of heat rise within the orgone box, in fact I have also duplicated this and it proves Reich was onto something big, but the Correa's are just goofy. I told them I could rebuild the Orgone motor and they assumed that I was talking about my device - however these clowns are completely mistaken because what I proposed to them was not powered by electricity at all, but after their slanderous post calling ME a liar, I decided it was best to forget about further dealings with crazies like the Correa's.
 
The application date of the Correa's new patent is AFTER I first called them to explain how my device works, and I guess they liked it enough to steal my Plasma Drive and couple it with their copy of the Alexeff Plasma Discharge Tube.
 
Mike - since you still think the Correa's PAGD motor of the past was OU, exactly how much did you invest in this Seminole, Earth saving technology?
 
Chris

Mike Carrell <mikec medleas.com> wrote:

MC: I'm reluctant to get involved in this area again, but some things need
persepctive. I have seen the text of, but not studied, the new Correa
patent.
--------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Arnold
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued


Terry,

Igor Alexeff invented the Plasma Discharge Tube that the Correas Borrowed
and say they discovered it. please see this for yourself
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%%2FPTO%%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4291255

MC: I looked at the claims and description of the Alexeff device on the
referenced link. There is no resemblance to the Correa PAGD, which is
apparent if one studies the PAGD patentes, which I have done. Their thread
of discovery as descrtibed to me by Paulo is utterly different from Alexeff.

The Correas use of my Pulsed Plasma Drive to power their motor is the
infringement.

MC: The original PAGD patents and claims include driving a motor, which is
also illustrated in a early video shown at a conference decades ago,

The Pulsed Plasma Drive can never directly produce an abnormal glow
discharge which is known of as a weak plasma, compared to the Dense Plasma
Focus of my Pulsed Plasma Drive - which is an extremely powerful and
energetic Plasma, capable of of D+D, D+T and even aneutronic fusion as I
told Puthoff in 2000.

MC: And Arnold is now making a clear distinction between his device and
PAGD? The PAGD discharge releases much more energy than it takes to maintain
the conditions for the effect to occur.

If the Correa's PAGD Tube is so marvelous, why didn't it impress Eugene
Mallove, considering Mallove flatly told me he did "not" believe my Spark
Gap Drive (Pulsed Plasma Drive) would work at all. Jim from Sarasota
attempted to get an interview with me published by Mallove, who still
thought Dense Plasma Focus would never allow atomic Fusion - but it was all
too much for Mallove to understand or believe.

MC: Arnold is quite confused here. Mallove *was* impressed by PAGD, which as
Arnold says is clearly different from his Dense Plasma Focus device.

The Correa's new patent was applied after I first contacted them to explain
how my device was different from the PADG tube, and did not even require
containment or working gasses - which they did not believe. You can clearly
see they believe me now.

As for their work with Orgone boxes - please remember it is from the
published works of Wilhelm Reich and the Correas only duplicated it, they
did NOT discover anything new in that case, or in the case of my Plasma
Drive. And yes - I believe that Reich's Orgone box works - but he had many
other more obscure contraptions that worked just as well. Reich never
mentioned using either AC or DC Electrical Pulses in his devices - and the
Orgone device was not my machine, but a contraption that was based on
Reich's Orgone theories (not electrical) - and quite strange looking when I
first viewed it.

MC: To my incomplete knowledge, the Correas are quite familiar with Reich's
work. Their orgone box demonstrated a heat differential that was able to
drive a simple Stirling engine.

By the Correa's suggesting that Reich's works were connected in any way to
using electrical driving power - they show themselves to have ZERO
comprehension of Reich's true work or the energy involved.

As I said, the Correa's are common folk.

As for them using a Ouija board, dice or tarot cards for scientific
insight - that is more likely than not.

MC: This slam is utterly unjustified by volume of careful work represented
in the Correa patents. I found the Correas quite sophisticated.

Mike Carrell



Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-1106174249-1155180969=:84390-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 20:40:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7A3eJcI005888; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:40:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7A3eHA1005869; Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:40:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:40:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=I/l5LGRqm71ju73fpupA6zif8jo1O/6KxnkZAwlmwm440SUsnrGuu5s1yYsf4Qkk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006841033959816 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 21:39:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b14269aba1d3e0dc1b646c2cb2c3b730350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: Are we (all) there yet? Jones Beene. > > > Speaking of the subcategory of H2 generators which use > an intermediary (but recyclable) REACTIVE element to > reduce water, there is another such possibility in the > news this week ... > What is recyclable about using a pound of coal or 1/2 pound of natural gas per KW-HR of electrical power to process some wild scheme "fuel" to react with water for "rapid" H2 production? > > This boron--> boron oxide scheme was developed by > Tareq Abu-Hamed, University of Minnesota and > colleagues at the Weizmann Institute, Israel. > Sounds like they should try more practical academic pursuits. B2O3 requires Magnesium metal to reduce it to metallic Boron. Hess's Law applies no matter how elaborate the reduction process. You would be better off buying granulated Wyoming coal-derived Coke, or Biomass Charcoal from Wal-Mart and putting an exhaust gas and water coolant heat exchanger on your ICE to get the reaction C (12 lbs) + H2O (18 lbs) ---> CO (28 lbs) + H2 (2 lbs). And you don't have lug an off-peak power re-cycler up to your 13th floor apartment. Fred > > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 06:23:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ADNjl3012806; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:23:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ADNcrl012761; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:23:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:23:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c6bc80$22ec11d0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20060810033609.85389.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:22:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Chris, some corrections. Mike, As you said, you did not study the Correa patent yet insisted in commenting anyway - which was completely your mistake. MC: I said I did not study the new Correa patent. I did not comment on it. I did study the earlier Correa patents on the PAGD device very carefully, and wrote an article about it for IE. To begin with - they are without any doubt using the Alexeff "Plasma Discharge Tube." Look at this was - the wheel is invented and someone eventually uses that wheel on a cart. They are still USING the wheel which was not their discovery. MC: By this reasoning, any discharge device would do. What Paulo told me and is in their early patents is that the PAGD effect was discovered in the course of research on X-ray devices. The explored many electrode configurations -- Alexadra is a qualified technical glassblower. The Alexeff device in your link is not the same confirguration the Coorea used. My understanding is that the effect does not depend on electrode configurations but on the specific operating conditions and external circuitry. . Second, the Correa's are calling it an Orgone Motor, however Reich never used electricity to either create or use Orgone - therefore the Correa's are lying about it's connection to Reich. Others have clearly stated that the Correa's are extremely rude, arrogant and down right nasty people that care only about themselves - and I have provided a post from them that proves this is true. MC: I am aware of email correspondence from the Correas and an associate. I spent a weekend with them as their guest and saw different aspects of their life and personality. Forget about their theft of my discoveries - they are lying about Orgone operating their device, because it is operated by electricity as clearly stated in the patent - NOT ORGONE. Lastly - I never said that these clowns did not duplicate Reich's discovery of heat rise within the orgone box, in fact I have also duplicated this and it proves Reich was onto something big, but the Correa's are just goofy. I told them I could rebuild the Orgone motor and they assumed that I was talking about my device - however these clowns are completely mistaken because what I proposed to them was not powered by electricity at all, but after their slanderous post calling ME a liar, I decided it was best to forget about further dealings with crazies like the Correa's. The application date of the Correa's new patent is AFTER I first called them to explain how my device works, and I guess they liked it enough to steal my Plasma Drive and couple it with their copy of the Alexeff Plasma Discharge Tube. Mike - since you still think the Correa's PAGD motor of the past was OU, exactly how much did you invest in this Seminole, Earth saving technology? MC: I said that the early patents show the PAGD driving a motor. There was no evidence in the patents, or anything that I have seen, that the system was OU in driving a motor. There is evidence that the PAGD cell is strongly OU. An experiment using two PAGD cells and battery packs showed that the battery packs gained energy over time without connection to an external source of power. As for the reference to "Seminole", I don't know what you are talking about, nor have I made any investment in anything. MC: Chris, you are showing some of the attitudes and behavior of which you accuse the Correas. I have no interest in making any ajudications in this matter as I lack evidence. I present witness to what I have seen and done with respect tothe PAGD, not to the recent patent. Some of the phrasing suggests a recognition of problems in interfacing PAGD with the real world which I discussed with Paulo at one time. These may well have occurred independantly to the Correas and Harold Aspden. Mike Carrell Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 12:43:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7AJhIJq009010; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:43:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7AJhG0r008983; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:43:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:43:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XpaJNJkHBBAlYtiSbQ55aXaBiSYff/0talr4wCE+pfyyD+Xo/B+HHljilCjItWrL; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068410194246948 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:42:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e4701d62b8939c34a29e8c2f68380239350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.189 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wet/Dry Grind Garbage/Trash into Fuel Blend: > > _http://www.netzschusa.com/Grinding/Wetgrinddisp02.htm_ > > "All NETZSCH grinding machines are capable of obtaining a uniform > particle size distribution in the micron and submicron (or nanometer) > particle size range. Typically slurries are processed with 50 µm to > 200 µm average particle size to less than 1 µm (submicron) average > particle size. Slurries with particles as large as 2000 µm can be > successfully processed to dispersions requiring 0.05 µm (50 > nanometers) average particle size." > > http://www.warren-group.com/articles/grainpartI.html > > "*Dust Explosions in General" > > *"A dust explosion occurs when fine particles suspended in the air > ignite and burn rapidly, causing a violent increase in pressure. In > order to cause an explosion, the combustible mixture of air and dust > must be contained in some type of vessel. Grains and other > agricultural products are a common fuel for dust explosions due to the > nature of their handling and storage. Any time that grain is handled > or moved, potentially explosive dust is generated. > > The size of the dust particles also plays an important role in > determining the severity of an explosion. A solid fuel only burns at > its surface, where it is exposed to air. A cloud of very fine dust > particles has a much greater surface area than a cloud of coarser > particles. In addition, fine particles weigh less and tend to stay > suspended in air longer. Generally speaking, particles smaller than > 840 microns (0.033 inches) can be an explosion hazard." > > http://www.warren-group.com/articles/grainpartII.html > > "Of all types of dust explosions, those associated with grain dust are > the most common and the most dangerous. Forty-eight percent of all > dust explosions since 1900 have been associated with grain or other > agricultural products. *USDA statistics indicate that from 1958 to > 1982, there have been 434 grain dust explosions, resulting in 776 > injuries, 209 deaths, and millions of dollars in damage.* Any time > that grain is moved processed or handled, potentially combustible dust > is generated. Air and ignition sources such as hot bearings and static > electricity are inherently present in grain elevators, dryers and > other basic handling equipment. Explosion and fire hazards exist > anywhere that grain dust is present. Therefore, intelligent design, > good safety practices, and careful housekeeping are necessary to > prevent dangerous and costly accidents." > > > *Electrolyze Garbage to Hydrogen:* > > *US 4,608,137 (1986) (Chevron Research Co.)* > > *"The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the > present invention include a wide variety of material such as > bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons, > coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials > including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust, > wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass > materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other > processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop > wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems, > husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge > resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps > or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene, > cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially > any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such > as ! ! methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing > carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of > carbonaceous material for use according to this invention."* > > Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Wet/Dry Grind Garbage/Trash into Fuel Blend:
>
>
> "All NETZSCH grinding machines are capable of obtaining a uniform
> particle size distribution in the micron and submicron (or nanometer)
> particle size range. Typically slurries are processed with 50 µm to
> 200 µm average particle size to less than 1 µm (submicron) average
> particle size. Slurries with particles as large as 2000 µm can be
> successfully processed to dispersions requiring 0.05 µm (50
> nanometers) average particle size."
>
>
> "*Dust Explosions in General"
>
> *"A dust explosion occurs when fine particles suspended in the air
> ignite and burn rapidly, causing a violent increase in pressure. In
> order to cause an explosion, the combustible mixture of air and dust
> must be contained in some type of vessel. Grains and other
> agricultural products are a common fuel for dust explosions due to the
> nature of their handling and storage. Any time that grain is handled
> or moved, potentially explosive dust is generated.
>
> The size of the dust particles also plays an important role in
> determining the severity of an explosion. A solid fuel only burns at
> its surface, where it is exposed to air. A cloud of very fine dust
> particles has a much greater surface area than a cloud of coarser
> particles. In addition, fine particles weigh less and tend to stay
> suspended in air longer. Generally speaking, particles smaller than
> 840 microns (0.033 inches) can be an explosion hazard."
>
>
> "Of all types of dust explosions, those associated with grain dust are
> the most common and the most dangerous. Forty-eight percent of all
> dust explosions since 1900 have been associated with grain or other
> agricultural products. *USDA statistics indicate that from 1958 to
> 1982, there have been 434 grain dust explosions, resulting in 776
> injuries, 209 deaths, and millions of dollars in damage.* Any time
> that grain is moved processed or handled, potentially combustible dust
> is generated. Air and ignition sources such as hot bearings and static
> electricity are inherently present in grain elevators, dryers and
> other basic handling equipment. Explosion and fire hazards exist
> anywhere that grain dust is present. Therefore, intelligent design,
> good safety practices, and careful housekeeping are necessary to
> prevent dangerous and costly accidents."
>
>
> *Electrolyze Garbage to Hydrogen:*
>
> *US 4,608,137 (1986) (Chevron Research Co.)*
>
> *"The carbonaceous materials suitable for use in accordance with the
> present invention include a wide variety of material such as
> bituminous coal, chars made from coal, lignite, peat, active carbons,
> coke, carbon blacks, graphite; wood or other lignocellulosic materials
> including forest products, such as wood waste, wood chips, sawdust,
> wood dust, bark, shavings, wood pellets; including various biomass
> materials as land or marine vegetation or its waste after other
> processing, including grasses, various cuttings, crops and crop
> wastes, coffee grounds, leaves, straw, pits, hulls, shells, stems,
> husks, cobs and waste materials including animal manure; sewage sludge
> resulting from municipal treatment plants, and plastics or the scraps
> or wastes formed in the production of plastic such as polyethylene,
> cellulose acetate and the like. Thus, it is seen that substantially
> any fuel or waste material whether a liquid, such as oil, a gas, such
> as ! ! methane or other ! ! hydrocarbon or waste material containing
> carbon, with the exception of CO.sub.2, provides a suitable source of
> carbonaceous material for use according to this invention."*
>
>
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 15:09:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7AM8s9E001559; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:08:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7AM8qV7001529; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:08:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:08:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=MpTdMvqlOeLxDfpOdMpGXUF6PNX50Eig3Xlhg16yLWYq2ChluiYDe0xi9KeJDApZvOBJoQu20CsBlz49auGFnlNOi+2Vtt8qFFo7bjEFcTziQr3MMpptbAHvXZLm+yA4c7yuUnSfpTK9yFRi6NfmTaYQUEqtRxKJJKh7BLICmyo= ; Message-ID: <20060810220851.24365.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: YouTube and JC Status: O X-Status: Totally tubular, mon... "YouTube" is a year-old internet phenomenon, which is younger than Google video, but claims to showing 100 million videos per day. Check the Wiki entry if interested in that culture-factoid, which is not the subject of this post. However, the band-width required for this output is unbelievable. Copyright issues abound, but surprisingly are being dealt with more smoothly than with other media, such as music. Anyway, even though it is more of light-hearted - non-scientific orientation than google, there are many hits for the "Joe Cell" and hydrogen, a few of which are not on google. If you have not seen the claims before, here is a typical video of a Joe Cell (variety) running an ICE for a short time (presenting more questions than it answers) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9N8xz2Nn0Q Still only one company appears to be active at a grassroots level. The Canadian Company, "Innovative Hydrogen Solutions Inc." continues to make the most noise - http://www.ihsresearch.com/h2n-gen.php There are some vids on their site and on YouTube Unfortunately, Canadian energy companies have a credibility level somewhere between used-car salesmen and Donald Rumsfeld. This one is fairly convincing, on the surface. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 15:56:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7AMuJP2024886; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:56:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7AMuIfM024863; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:56:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:56:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=o3KlRJ27lejD92fh1YdT4dDIGSuBNL30++rB2MCUReEe1b1qPxbFsDQ/XdaFz836Ad7aXDlt2Q7jwaQG5plZb4SsVU5IM4dr7sQy/GOMIPf9dMXpxijfzF3VmHCzroUPrpRC79vYgBalxY/FA03vAEI40U1HRH6IEgLoC0LY3R4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:56:15 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: YouTube and JC In-Reply-To: <20060810220851.24365.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060810220851.24365.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/10/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Still only one company appears to be active at a > grassroots level. This one came up on gmail: http://savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/ Gmail is interesting. They look at my postings and give me related links automatically. I'd be happy to invite any Vorts, if you wanna try it. (It's by invite only now.) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 20:46:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7B3kaoO006953; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:46:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7B3kXIE006908; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:46:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:46:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=r0ortt34mveY8wbRg7Q+wcMKdyGaBoEBlM/QsJnmyHhG5i/eo4UlxhNHh+nCYjWm0fHoesMlrU8+8tudpKn4rGL/2aU3JO8TJFCtzLTizsb2VC6vS8B9JhLoxf4rtS7mwbQKBWWAygzFV92UVEkhBvhMX+4zZTedbwwYg1kRZlI= ; Message-ID: <20060811034633.8044.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000b01c6bc80$22ec11d0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1213836075-1155267993=:8015" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1213836075-1155267993=:8015 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, If you reread the original post where I "complimented" the Correa's and many others, you might notice it was I that was attacked by said Correa. BTW, I contacted over 4000 others not listed from all branches of the Government, NASA and Universities seeking some small assistance, to no avail because I had no credentials, etc and what I said just couldn't possibly be real - but it is. If others want to think I have a bad attitude for calling a Spade a Spade - so be it, but from here out I will work as I can without expecting anything but the SOS from others. Maybe some of the vorts should get off your duffs and invest in someone - and since Mike says the Correa's have an OU device - start with them. Best Regards, Chris Mike Carrell wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Chris, some corrections. Mike, As you said, you did not study the Correa patent yet insisted in commenting anyway - which was completely your mistake. MC: I said I did not study the new Correa patent. I did not comment on it. I did study the earlier Correa patents on the PAGD device very carefully, and wrote an article about it for IE. To begin with - they are without any doubt using the Alexeff "Plasma Discharge Tube." Look at this was - the wheel is invented and someone eventually uses that wheel on a cart. They are still USING the wheel which was not their discovery. MC: By this reasoning, any discharge device would do. What Paulo told me and is in their early patents is that the PAGD effect was discovered in the course of research on X-ray devices. The explored many electrode configurations -- Alexadra is a qualified technical glassblower. The Alexeff device in your link is not the same confirguration the Coorea used. My understanding is that the effect does not depend on electrode configurations but on the specific operating conditions and external circuitry. . Second, the Correa's are calling it an Orgone Motor, however Reich never used electricity to either create or use Orgone - therefore the Correa's are lying about it's connection to Reich. Others have clearly stated that the Correa's are extremely rude, arrogant and down right nasty people that care only about themselves - and I have provided a post from them that proves this is true. MC: I am aware of email correspondence from the Correas and an associate. I spent a weekend with them as their guest and saw different aspects of their life and personality. Forget about their theft of my discoveries - they are lying about Orgone operating their device, because it is operated by electricity as clearly stated in the patent - NOT ORGONE. Lastly - I never said that these clowns did not duplicate Reich's discovery of heat rise within the orgone box, in fact I have also duplicated this and it proves Reich was onto something big, but the Correa's are just goofy. I told them I could rebuild the Orgone motor and they assumed that I was talking about my device - however these clowns are completely mistaken because what I proposed to them was not powered by electricity at all, but after their slanderous post calling ME a liar, I decided it was best to forget about further dealings with crazies like the Correa's. The application date of the Correa's new patent is AFTER I first called them to explain how my device works, and I guess they liked it enough to steal my Plasma Drive and couple it with their copy of the Alexeff Plasma Discharge Tube. Mike - since you still think the Correa's PAGD motor of the past was OU, exactly how much did you invest in this Seminole, Earth saving technology? MC: I said that the early patents show the PAGD driving a motor. There was no evidence in the patents, or anything that I have seen, that the system was OU in driving a motor. There is evidence that the PAGD cell is strongly OU. An experiment using two PAGD cells and battery packs showed that the battery packs gained energy over time without connection to an external source of power. As for the reference to "Seminole", I don't know what you are talking about, nor have I made any investment in anything. MC: Chris, you are showing some of the attitudes and behavior of which you accuse the Correas. I have no interest in making any ajudications in this matter as I lack evidence. I present witness to what I have seen and done with respect tothe PAGD, not to the recent patent. Some of the phrasing suggests a recognition of problems in interfacing PAGD with the real world which I discussed with Paulo at one time. These may well have occurred independantly to the Correas and Harold Aspden. Mike Carrell Chris --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --0-1213836075-1155267993=:8015 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mike,
 
If you reread the original post where I "complimented" the Correa's and many others, you might notice it was I that was attacked by said Correa. BTW, I contacted over 4000 others not listed from all branches of the Government, NASA and Universities seeking some small assistance, to no avail because I had no credentials, etc and what I said just couldn't possibly be real - but it is.
 
If others want to think I have a bad attitude for calling a Spade a Spade - so be it, but from here out I will work as I can without expecting anything but the SOS from others.
 
Maybe some of the vorts should get off your duffs and invest in someone - and since Mike says the Correa's have an OU device - start with them.
 
Best Regards,
Chris
 


Mike Carrell <mikec medleas.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Arnold
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued

Chris, some corrections.


Mike,

As you said, you did not study the Correa patent yet insisted in commenting
anyway - which was completely your mistake.

MC: I said I did not study the new Correa patent. I did not comment on it. I
did study the earlier Correa patents on the PAGD device very carefully, and
wrote an article about it for IE.

To begin with - they are without any doubt using the Alexeff "Plasma
Discharge Tube." Look at this was - the wheel is invented and someone
eventually uses that wheel on a cart. They are still USING the wheel which
was not their discovery.

MC: By this reasoning, any discharge device would do. What Paulo told me and
is in their early patents is that the PAGD effect was discovered in the
course of research on X-ray devices. The explored many electrode
configurations -- Alexadra is a qualified technical glassblower. The Alexeff
device in your link is not the same confirguration the Coorea used. My
understanding is that the effect does not depend on electrode configurations
but on the specific operating conditions and external circuitry. .

Second, the Correa's are calling it an Orgone Motor, however Reich never
used electricity to either create or use Orgone - therefore the Correa's are
lying about it's connection to Reich.

Others have clearly stated that the Correa's are extremely rude, arrogant
and down right nasty people that care only about themselves - and I have
provided a post from them that proves this is true.

MC: I am aware of email correspondence from the Correas and an associate. I
spent a weekend with them as their guest and saw different aspects of their
life and personality.

Forget about their theft of my discoveries - they are lying about Orgone
operating their device, because it is operated by electricity as clearly
stated in the patent - NOT ORGONE.

Lastly - I never said that these clowns did not duplicate Reich's discovery
of heat rise within the orgone box, in fact I have also duplicated this and
it proves Reich was onto something big, but the Correa's are just goofy. I
told them I could rebuild the Orgone motor and they assumed that I was
talking about my device - however these clowns are completely mistaken
because what I proposed to them was not powered by electricity at all, but
after their slanderous post calling ME a liar, I decided it was best to
forget about further dealings with crazies like the Correa's.

The application date of the Correa's new patent is AFTER I first called them
to explain how my device works, and I guess they liked it enough to steal my
Plasma Drive and couple it with their copy of the Alexeff Plasma Discharge
Tube.

Mike - since you still think the Correa's PAGD motor of the past was OU,
exactly how much did you invest in this Seminole, Earth saving technology?

MC: I said that the early patents show the PAGD driving a motor. There was
no evidence in the patents, or anything that I have seen, that the system
was OU in driving a motor. There is evidence that the PAGD cell is strongly
OU. An experiment using two PAGD cells and battery packs showed that the
battery packs gained energy over time without connection to an external
source of power. As for the reference to "Seminole", I don't know what you
are talking about, nor have I made any investment in anything.

MC: Chris, you are showing some of the attitudes and behavior of which you
accuse the Correas. I have no interest in making any ajudications in this
matter as I lack evidence. I present witness to what I have seen and done
with respect tothe PAGD, not to the recent patent. Some of the phrasing
suggests a recognition of problems in interfacing PAGD with the real world
which I discussed with Paulo at one time. These may well have occurred
independantly to the Correas and Harold Aspden.

Mike Carrell

Chris



Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --0-1213836075-1155267993=:8015-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 06:21:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BDLQ2E017159; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:21:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BDLOL0017142; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:21:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:21:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=PNmSg8oWpJNGHMOWql0k3BaebpgACuAUxOZB5pRJpLdSSJ+tdSE3+NSs2t209xp5WdbFIAgNMQM8P5SmO1EagTeZNF2LXwiUN4LvA8F0fVDKzbph4ZQXigwfIkaORcDjJRonxHg3JNY4PmL8Qcyro1ARdIeU3Lj3PhP7BDxC/6M= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:21:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Detroit Sees the Light Status: O X-Status: And it's electric! http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060809/AUTO03/608090317/1149 http://tinyurl.com/o88tu From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 06:46:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BDkXdf031834; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:46:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BDkTR8031793; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:46:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=TCRzzNixJEsPrJPt2VkB8k7UQONdyPcdRUdbIlNxWfPoyEunX7w4VO4AAG9V6L4zTICYQNjBOwDnjy531+rCAtwdeVR+Ibud8YV1sFFYBVkpKseVhgQP0jEcXxUYtjE/luc7Dwb5x/ReDel7GrnUG5zq+dW0oM/yo0XCpd5Y06U= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:46:25 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Sarfattisms Status: O X-Status: This has got to be one of the best: "What is mind? Mind is a macro-quantum coherent ODLRO (off diagonal long-range order) field in the brain/body microtubule caged electron protein dimers (S. Hameroff) protected against decoherence by "More is different" Goldstone phase rigidity." :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 07:39:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BEdGj3002280; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:39:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BEdAvj002191; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=oa3MEHkw1axKeq6fLpZ4g7+zInBDphPK/pozA2Z7b5jyg7M0jWkhP1rWl0u5lSdMlbdXzMq8nhXoQkH4GTusbXik2R9mzaQ5M9oqf/MW+e5sMVsVZ1WmsEHOUSdzV4OUzlboxjxE716XZmfro/oFhLvogtqkR8tUxu5lIbZatAc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:39:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Segway Products Status: O X-Status: One is the Robotic Mobility Platform: http://www.segway.com/products/rmp/ A friend told me about this several months ago (before it was announced). This person was writing systems integration software for military robots. One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite directions while firing. Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled on it. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 07:49:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BEnAp2010058; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:49:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BEn75G010025; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:49:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:49:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,115,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="703419634:sNHT22468200" Message-ID: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 7:49:02 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7BEn2aH009956 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light Status: O X-Status: >From Terry Blanton > And it's electric! > > http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060809/AUTO03/608090317/1149 > > http://tinyurl.com/o88tu This reminds me of when I purchased my first home computer back around 1978. I was fresh out of college and had just landed my first real full-paying job. I was going to be a reasonably high-paid computer programmer for the state of Wisconsin. With a steady source of income guaranteed I went to my bank and took out my first loan. With a fist full of loaned dollars in my hand I bought Radio Shack's first incarnation of the TRS-80, or "Trash-80" as besmirched by the "other competitor" in the market. My TRS-80 came with one floppy drive (80k storage) and a whopping 4k of RAM. I think its clock speed was hovering somewhere around 1 - 2 MhZ. I think I could play Solitaire on the flickering 14-inch black and white monitor. Those were the days when the BASIC programming language actually looked like BASIC with each turgid line of code prefixed with numbers. My TRS-80 cost me approximately $2,400 in 1978 dollars. I could have bought a decent used car with that amount of cash. Tells you where my priorities were back in those ancient days! Today we have the sexy Tesla all-electric Roadster, delivering the equivalent of 135 miles per gallon with a 250 mile range per charge. Without a doubt the snappy sports red color puts my 1978 all-plastic gray TRS-80 chassis to shame. The suggested retail price for the sexy Tesla model is around 85 - 110 grand, just a tad above what I can presently afford. Well, maybe if I re-mortgaged the house. Meanwhile, according to the article that Terry supplied us with, there are other contenders in the market, like the Xebra, a "city car" made by the company Zap, a 3 wheeler that goes as fast as 40 mph and can go as far as 40 miles per charge. The cost: A much more reasonable $8,900. There are improvements on the drawing boards soon to be revealed. Even Zebra's humble statistics could easily drive me to work, to the grocery store, to dental appointments, as well as my spouse and I to the theatre. We could even afford to go out to a moderately priced restaurant on a weekend - because we aren't spending all of our discretionary entertainment budget trying to keep the gas tank filled. One can clearly see an equivalent innovative technological trend beginning to evolve in innovative new electric car designs, the equivalent of what we previously witnessed in the PC industry over the past several decades. It really did take decades for the home (personal) computer to evolve into the micro super computers we now have sitting on our desks these days. It seems to me that we are witnessing the same scenario in the beginning stages of unfolding in the auto industry as well. It will happen, I have no doubt. A footnote. There is no guarantee that Detroit will be the primary beneficiary and main manufacturer of all-electric cars, the future "affordable car" manufactured for the common man & woman who must survive on modest fixed salaries and wages day-in and day-out. Silicon Valley, with all its formidable brainpower in electronics, may actually turn out to be the true winner in the early 21st century "space race." RIP Detroit. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 07:53:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BEr7ih012378; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:53:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BEr6gB012361; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:53:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:53:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=gf5Ss0UggtQZEK9aKvUp5MlTZwM+3xKwc84Mv08HytVrU74CoYCkWBXOFLcaxVxxdj55bg+PkZmcGJZkgTlGmlRhnktPng44Cgy9GOdmTEkLpLQhixqRwTKkgHCjB4fvgM899CoOHas2YyY5tJQU9vYBS/wtEX1/zcyVSruJRH4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:53:04 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Printing Solar Cells Status: O X-Status: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/280625_solarcell10.html "Solar cells change electricity distribution By DAVE FREEMAN AND JIM HARDING GUEST COLUMNISTS In separate announcements over the past few months, researchers at the University of Johannesburg and at Nanosolar, a private company in Palo Alto, have announced major breakthroughs in reducing the cost of solar electric cells. While trade journals are abuzz with the news, analysis of the potential implications has been sparse. We approach this news as current and former public electric utility executives, sympathetic with consumer and environmental concerns. South Africa and California technologies rely on the same alloy -- called CIGS (for copper-indium-gallium-selenide) -- deposited in an extremely thin layer on a flexible surface. Both companies claim that the technology reduces solar cell production costs by a factor of 4-5. That would bring the cost to or below that of delivered electricity in a large fraction of the world. The California team is backed by a powerful team of private investors, including Google's two founders and the insurance giant Swiss Re, among others. It has announced plans to build a $100 million production facility in the San Francisco Bay area that is slated to be operational at 215 megawatts next year, and soon thereafter capable of producing 430 megawatts of cells annually. What makes this particular news stand out? Cost, scale and financial strength. The cost of the facility is about one-tenth that of recently completed silicon cell facilities. Second, Nanosolar is scaling up rapidly from pilot production to 430 megawatts, using a technology it equates to printing newspapers. That implies both technical success and development of a highly automated production process that captures important economies of scale. No one builds that sort of industrial production facility in the Bay Area -- with expensive labor, real estate and electricity costs -- without confidence. Similar facilities can be built elsewhere. Half a dozen competitors also are working along the same lines, led by private firms Miasole and Daystar, in Sunnyvale, Calif., and New York. But this is really not about who wins in the end. We all do. Thin solar films can be used in building materials, including roofing materials and glass, and built into mortgages, reducing their cost even further. Inexpensive solar electric cells are, fundamentally, a "disruptive technology," even in Seattle, with below-average electric rates and many cloudy days. Much like cellular phones have changed the way people communicate, cheap solar cells change the way we produce and distribute electric energy. The race is on. The announcements are good news for consumers worried about high energy prices and dependence on the Middle East, utility executives worried about the long-term viability of their next investment in central station power plants, transmission, or distribution, and for all of us who worry about climate change. It is also good news for the developing world, where electricity generally is more expensive, mostly because electrification requires long-distance transmission and serves small or irregular loads. Inexpensive solar cells are an ideal solution. Meanwhile, the prospect of this technology creates a conundrum for the electric utility industry and Wall Street. Can -- or should -- any utility, or investor, count on the long-term viability of a coal, nuclear or gas investment? The answer is no. In about a year, we'll see how well those technologies work. The question is whether federal energy policy can change fast enough to join what appears to be a revolution." Thanks Sergey & Larry! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 07:56:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BEu461014098; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BEu2ms014061; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:56:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:56:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:55:56 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2927CD0 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Whither the Polysulphide Battery? Thread-Index: Aca9Vj/i4wPeRoAeSOqwsWkOKDeFrQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2006 14:55:57.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[40C61BC0:01C6BD56] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7BEtvV8014002 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Whither the Polysulphide Battery? Status: O X-Status: I noticed that Stuart Licht's Polysulphide battery patent will expire in another year, relative to the '87 filing date. ( 4828942) It claims to be a cheap, efficient flow cell unit with 3 times the storage capacity of "lead/metal" systems. I can't find any evidence that it was ever built. I wonder what happened to it? I have tried to e-mail him with no reply. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 08:01:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BF1JE4017677; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:01:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BF1IWw017660; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:01:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >directions while firing. > >Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled on it. Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 08:21:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BFL5lt027957; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:21:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BFL4GQ027938; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:21:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:21:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uSdpaObiV1fw5osw3EJhajrwI/olRdueN4iLmRR8SPuHGCXvEw/QRqW5RMMEFomoce1hruBMjsxdiS5V3IYqMHBTXQsesEJOD1B9FuUTyr7BHRRJtZDWA+Pvw5NFJiscL7AQoX7xHUHslCKUKMzvQDA7UkXb7UmoyCPbEnYfxBc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:21:03 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Printing Solar Cells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/11/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > In separate announcements over the past few months, researchers at the > University of Johannesburg and at Nanosolar, a private company in Palo > Alto, have announced major breakthroughs in reducing the cost of solar > electric cells. While trade journals are abuzz with the news, analysis > of the potential implications has been sparse. Their products: http://nanosolar.com/products.htm Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 08:37:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BFbMRX004271; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:37:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BFbLOd004263; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:37:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=e1RIjX8/YmOlSvQTb0ny4LHK4wzRE69Yi/WctkKOckJJEJDRKppTY/68eqmRtv3SUpRpWJRqyZXSDmtX/XMOhxIcHG+E45CMhhZ6Qose1ZGEwF8fSqJKJEHqGmQOCpMsKAQqcd632MTjHv/d8XSx6Mvdd4IF6QxmnFwB5DsgGWc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:37:21 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/11/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? Just shoots the ones in black hats. A problem for the Israelis in Lebanon, innit? The software package was quite interesting. It integrated 30,000 combat elements including UAVs and various ground robotic devices. Another interesting comment was about what the programmer called a land aircraft carrier, a flat bed truck that launched swarms of small aircraft for recon and attack. The wetware coordinators were far removed from scene. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 09:47:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BGkujc011924; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:46:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BGkst1011898; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:46:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:46:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c6bd65$bb5c4210$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20060811034633.8044.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:43:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris, If you reread the original post where I "complimented" the Correa's and many others, you might notice it was I that was attacked by said Correa. MC: I can believe that, even though I haven't followed this thread from its start. A while back on Vo there were unjustified attacks from an associate of the Correas whose name I don't now recall. BTW, I contacted over 4000 others not listed from all branches of the Government, NASA and Universities seeking some small assistance, to no avail because I had no credentials, etc and what I said just couldn't possibly be real - but it is. MC: You experience is similar to the Correas, who made many attempts to interest various possible clients, without success. They have been approached by various interests which upon investigation appeard to be bogus. After all that, they have become defensive. If others want to think I have a bad attitude for calling a Spade a Spade - so be it, but from here out I will work as I can without expecting anything but the SOS from others. MC: And so you wind up in a similar position, bitter and a bit battle-weary, with a technology you believe works, unable to get support. This the fate of many in the "OU" field, and one reason why Gene Mallove tried to provide a receptive ear to people like you. He made serious efforts to be responsive and did put money in various devices, all of which proved to be fatally flawed. Greer at one point was making a similar effort, but I have heard no reports of success. Maybe some of the vorts should get off your duffs and invest in someone - and since Mike says the Correa's have an OU device - start with them. MC: I can cite four initiatives that I know of. 1) There is LENR/CMNS, with hundreds of papers by credentialed investigators, clear evidence of an energetic process but no device emerging from a somwhat disorganized field. 2) There is Mark Goldes, who has been maintaining a very correct position and now energes with a patent for a possible OU device. 3) There is PAGD, where there is a clear energy release from a 'aether' source [the Correa patent states that the energy source is unknown to the inventor, but eventually will be understood by the physics community]. The characteristics of PAGD are such that building a useful working device, such as a motor, powered by PAGD has been a difficult problem whose solution may be the substance of the recent patent. And, finally, 4) Mills' BlackLight Power process, which is well funded [$50+ million ], well organized, and may be close to commercial development. Items 1) and 4) require a fuel, both derivable from water. MC: The contract that the Correas one time wanted was an up-front irrevocable investment of some $15 million over a five year period, with the Correas retaining 51% control. In other words, the investor cannot control what is done or who does it. Lest this seem harsh, what the Correas wanted to do was assemble a team of their choice who would have guaranteed employment for five years to devote full time effort to the project. They could not do this with typical venture capitalists, who want control and may jerk the investment if they don't like what is going on. MC: Chris, acquiring and holding support requires much more than a good idea or device. Personality and many other factors enter in. MC: Good luck. Regards, Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 09:52:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BGpd3d015014; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:51:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BGpbBY014992; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:51:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:51:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=KBJUzGmJWhPSg5hqXUDUBffRVKAUYlyTqs8I/jS/yEYaF7FMBKqXCxoOGs6oMdLbvYMytA6bo2J9726RFk9ZLdOtArma5pwTHb7dJMcS0vT7oU20aRDGYMBmxVqV2WRvqG69pcYe9WX72OqD4xymYCsyTSVg56eNLtcL6FRsRbA= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:51:35 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Plug-in Hybrid School Buses Status: O X-Status: http://www.ic-corp.com/site_layout/news/newsdetail.asp?id=772 "11 States are First in the Nation to Receive Hybrid School Buses as IC Corporation Awarded Bid by Advanced Energy Consortium IC Corporation Works with Enova Systems to Supply First Hybrid School Buses That Can Attain Up To 40 Percent Increase in Fuel Efficiency - Eleven states will be getting a higher grade for investing in energy-efficiency this school year. New York, California, Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Arkansas, Iowa and Washington will be the first states in the nation to receive hybrid school buses. Through its Plug-In Hybrid Electric School Bus Project, Advanced Energy, a Raleigh, N.C.-based nonprofit corporation, initiated a buyer's consortium of school districts, state energy agencies and student transportation providers. After issuing nationwide Request for Proposals (RFPs) for hybrid school buses in June 2006, Advanced Energy announced today at the 13th Annual School Transportation News Expo that IC Corporation, the nation's largest school bus manufacturer, won the bid and will provide up to 19 hybrid school buses to those 11 states." Here's the RFP: http://www.advancedenergy.org/corporate/initiatives/heb/rfp/HESB%20RFP%2006-01.pdf http://tinyurl.com/hwtmv The technical specs begin on p.48. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 10:16:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BHGP6A029927; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:16:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BHGM7F029901; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:16:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:16:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Gi3FDhRO8YWQ6Cv1AB7U3UgRlmZIwL2WnW1cihI92MTBLsfvwFORTn/FM52Cp7Lzz5HMAg4Zo9JkSRuLygIjVrb0WNvI0UMv9/aR3S/1rYTS3cvFj4doDwNEUhbw0lA6xmlMJ5UGJJ/ZpVGmhqthQMURjvbyNOjYamCFk87v3iA= ; Message-ID: <20060811171622.53761.qmail web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: First installment Status: O X-Status: In 1874, Jules Verne had finished publishing (in 62 installments !) his “Robinsonade” (yes, this is a real word, Robin) called “The Mysterious Island,” a tale which follows the adventures of a group of castaways who use their survivalist skills to build a functional community on a remote island. It is a kind of sequel, one might imagine, to “Robinson Crusoe,” or “Swiss Family Robinson” but with one memorable and endearing quote (for the "waterfuel" set). For Verne, being French, the escape vehicle of choice was a hot-air balloon (aka the “Montgolfier”) carrying five passengers (and a dog) which escapes from Richmond during the American Civil War. It is blown off course to an obscure island. After a skirmish with pirates, the group discovers a “secret helper” the reclusive Captain Nemo (from “Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea” fame). Anyway, in Verne’s tale, one castaway opined “I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable”. Unfortunately, JV missed the big-op to have the castaways build an H2 filled montoglfier and air-sail into Paris. Plus, this vision being quoted was not as big a leap of faith on Jules’ part as might be imagined, despite the fact that it has not yet been perfected. Louis Jacque Thenard had already discovered hydrogen peroxide in 1818, and it was well-known that this molecule had significant fuel value when enriched to a level known as HTP … and yet was basically a combination of the free-est-of-free raw materials – i.e. air (enriched in O2) and water. O2 + 2(H2O) <--> 2(HO-OH). Later, in 1839, William Grove built a "gas battery" that could reverse electrolysis – what today we call the fuel cell – and making the process of splitting water with electric current– and the reverse process, both fairly well understood. Therefore, much of the underlying science was in place for Verne. But as Nemo sez: “The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.” or was that Harlan Ellison? What the decidedly smart Jules Verne did not know about, back then, was Sonochemistry - the application of ultrasound to chemical reactions. Nor did he know the details of Superoxidation, which can be viewed as the oxidation of a molecule to a redundant ground state - which is less stable than the normal oxidative state. Hydrogen peroxide can be viewed as superoxidated water. Nor did he know about "radiolysis"... It is probably clear where this post-vernian-vision is going, by now. Let me state up front that conventional science as of now - knows of no-way to directly produce hydrogen peroxide from water and air without going through a complicated chemical process. Here is a FAQ Page, with contributions from yours truly. I actually had to sign an NDA with the subsidiary company a few years back, as they thought this sonochemical possibility, and some other wild ideas, would be easy to pull-off. It wasn’t. http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html The origin of sonochemical effects is the phenomenon of acoustic cavitation. Acoustical energy is mechanical energy i.e. it is not absorbed by molecules directly as photons can be. Ultrasound is transmitted through a medium via pressure waves by inducing vibrational motion- which alternately compresses and stretches the molecule or water-structure. Cavitation can produce photons in the UV spectrum (sonoluminescence). UV light can split water. All this is well-known Unfortunatley UV, a key component in one of these versions of the scheme, will destroy HO-OH faster than it splits water. Normally. That is where Zeolites come in. Jones More in a subsequent installment. Don't know if there are 61 more, but it might be worth the effort - if anything herein will "illuminate" the path towards that long-delayed vision of Jules Verne. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 11:55:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BItESV021001; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:55:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BItCng020966; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:55:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:24:23 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting to what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over others. War no longer makes a distinction between those who are fighting and those who are not. Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still fashionable to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a tragic mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more efficient and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition period which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to avoid war and the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, yet we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it is very profitable for them. They are able to continue their policy because they know how to manipulate our fear and paranoia. But you say, real threats exist against which we must be defended. Of course this is true, but this is a never ending path that can not be fixed just by making every country a democracy, as Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive approach is being demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our creativity to explore another way. Think about that rather than the Segway. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >> rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >> directions while firing. >> >> Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled >> on it. > > > Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 12:02:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BJ122q026044; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:02:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BIeY5J009594; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:40:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:40:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tl8HkNWWaV+t27GoWcqOKBcjn42BBJ9/0ZEmLpSc9s9gVr6w+OiFMe2brKBPzmUMfDHdZXrdunhzj6YDUAiGIqdkkBG1tn/eRKmWcxSv0Qm2yVFM9qi79g94UrGU5vnUayFxoNrYO9iDDT2MrbO5dqIrZoPhhW9XeOeMHxXgaXU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:15:59 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light In-Reply-To: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/11/06, OrionWorks wrote: > Meanwhile, according to the article that Terry supplied us with, there are other contenders in the market, like the Xebra, a "city car" made by the company Zap, a 3 wheeler that goes as fast as 40 mph and can go as far as 40 miles per charge. The cost: A much more reasonable $8,900. No need to compromise or wait. This North Carolina company: http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products.php will sell you a practical PT Cruiser for only $40k or a SmartCar for only $35k that will let you thumb your nose at Exxon. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 12:33:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BJX6oW014619; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:33:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BJX4Ge014600; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:33:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:33:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cz0K2Ji1s4VmgMOxDbm7oKrotLMCBc7M1dcET2qLPESTbvZeplRLOMAiXuivbxfWwysmrcil1bQaLea3usmwuzNklxPQXczmy6/rNvzCwztSGGJtf31UwtcM1U8iHUJ3xVk2eFrYnY+90VbFsQmHk/I7C1/ZFClycS+fWCMBnKM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:33:04 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: > We need to use our creativity to explore another way. That's easy: 1) Make energy free. 2) Eliminate religion. It's only the path which is in question. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 13:55:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BKt1A4026527; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:55:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BKsoro026399; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:54:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:54:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:56:28 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> We need to use our creativity to explore another way. > > > That's easy: > > 1) Make energy free. Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than they presently are. Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and donations, and it has harvested brain power from all over the world. The countries have long since exhausted the environment of useful minerals, the climate is too dry for extensive agriculture, and most of the soil is poor thanks to centuries of poor management. A country needs to produce something the rest of the world wants. Of course, if we did not need oil, we would ignore the internal conflicts there just like we do when they occur in countries of Africa where oil is not present. Thanks to the tools of terrorism, people who are sufficiently unhappy can no longer be ignored. > 2) Eliminate religion. Religion is the only concept that justifies being as good as we are. Very few people are "good" just because it is their nature. Granted, religion is taken to extreme, but all ideas are taken to extreme sooner or later. If religion and the rules it imposes are not applied, what do you suggest be used in its place? > > It's only the path which is in question. That is true. How do we get people to follow the best path? Ed > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 14:46:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BLk5nY018998; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:46:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BLjvXY018915; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:45:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:45:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KDtFQ1zvz8fAUkg/mEMYkaY7bVR2qWmfjWpNsGidHWgdEAx5BHWs/uunEUQaFJly/zX0wwSUGZxnCRmcHbfmmAOyGZJrn93kCuhfAlADqgqb0UZg0SDwbafEGZ++EcRropQc39cxJpIVQvbx3wFt4zWwcTLzeLx6KH4ObU7twdc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:45:56 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: > Free energy > would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than they > presently are. This was not intended to be an epistemological thread; however, since you ask, free energy means no one is poor and no one is rich. All men are equal just as money and oil are equal. > If religion and the rules it imposes are not applied, what do > you suggest be used in its place? Veritas. Truth. The Cathars actually had it right. Materialism is the evil of the world. Recreate the Library of Alexandria on the WWW. Once free energy relieves people of striving for existence then they will be free to seek understanding of existence. > How do we get people to follow the best path? The Path has been obscured by men of power. We must take away that power. The Word and the Path will become self evident if we remove fear from the life of humanity. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 15:04:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BM4R8a027454; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:04:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BM4PHq027438; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:04:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:04:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=dsuTFqKPFGLVl6HlF6yMmaa35Pk2Owgp7vLtEJ3w4wc2Lr4SIH0VxnyZc34Je9I8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <380-22006851122443350 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.122.0 (Windows) From: "" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:04:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8d54f1d1388101d48266bcf66bce5c059a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.78.6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 11, 2006 Status: O X-Status: Forward from aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) > [Original Message] > From: What's New To: Date: 8/11/2006 2:18:48 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday August 11, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Aug 06 Washington, DC 1. JAMES VAN ALLEN: THE FIRST AMERICAN SPACE HERO, DEAD AT 91. Almost nothing was known about conditions beyond the ionosphere when the US launched Explorer I on 31 Jan 58. The Cold War was at its peak, and the Soviets seemed to own space. Sputnik I, launched 4 Oct 57, carried no instruments. Sputnik II, a month later, could only send back Geiger counter readings taken when it was in sight of the ground station. In June, however, at a conference in the USSR, James Van Allen, a physics professor at the University of Iowa, announced that Explorer I had discovered the first of the two "Van Allen radiation belts." Soviet space scientists were crushed; the "space age" was not a year old and already the U.S. had taken the lead in science. Two years ago I visited Prof Van Allen in his office at the U. Iowa. At 89 he was down to a 7-day work week. He showed me an op-ed he was sending to the NY Times in which he described human space flight as "obsolete" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn072304.html . I don't believe they used it. Van Allen said using people to explore space is "a terribly old fashioned idea." 2. CLIMATE: FUEL PRICES MAY DO WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION WON'T. The Wall Street Journal, which is not exactly the voice of environmental extremism, commented today on NASA satellite measurements that show melting of the Greenland ice sheet to be more rapid than expected. On the same page was a story about General Motors cutting production of big SUVs. It seems that rising gas prices are causing sales to sag. An editorial by Donald Kennedy in today's issue of the journal Science, says the public is concerned about climate change and favors government action. State and local governments are voluntarily assuming what Kennedy refers to as a "neglected federal mandate." I say, "stay the course." When the world runs out of fossil fuel the greenhouse problem will begin to solve itself. 3. MAGNETS: MAYBE YOU JUST NEED TO GET YOUR MOLECULES ALIGNED. Whatever the problem, someone will sell you a magnet to fix it. Gas prices brought out the usual magnets that attach to the fuel lines to get the fuel molecules pointed right. Or you could walk instead of driving, but you may need magnets in your shoes to keep your feet from getting tired. When all else fails, turn to wine, but you may want to give it a little polish by attaching a magnet to the bottle neck (available from Bev Wizard, $30). 4. FREEDOM OF SCIENCE: OR WHY THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD WORKS. In my mail this week was "The First Open Letter about the Freedom of Science" from somebody named G.O. Mueller in Germany. It went to 290 "public figures" in Europe and the USA. Must be a lot of G.O. Muellers in Germany. This one thinks the Special Theory of Relativity is nonsense. He says 2896 publications agree with him. He's probably right, I've been sent about that many over the years. I would say the system is working just about right. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 15:21:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7BMLIYj003043; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:21:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7BMLG5j003022; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:21:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811175941.040f8d70 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:20:59 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy >would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than >they presently are. Probably, but that will be their choice, and the outcome will be their fault. >The countries have long since exhausted the environment of useful >minerals, the climate is too dry for extensive agriculture, and most >of the soil is poor thanks to centuries of poor management. As I pointed out in my book, with cold fusion you can make any climate as wet as you like, with a massive desalination project. You can also reverse soil depletion, and for that matter, you can grow all of your food indoors and not worry about the land (although I hope people will worry about it, and take care of it). All of these things can be done, but whether they will be done or not is a matter of choice or free will. > A country needs to produce something the rest of the world wants. I do not think that will be as true in the future. I think people will be more autonomous, particularly in the far distant future when manufacturing is done entirely with robots and local resources are intensely recycled using high-energy techniques. However, any country anywhere can produce something the rest of the world wants. Places like Japan and Singapore have practically no material resources. If resources mattered, Japan would be dirt poor and Mexico would be one of the wealthiest countries in the world. As I said in the book, and just this week translated into Japanese: "Many people have a sneaking suspicion that cold fusion must be too good to be true, because nature never does something for nothing. They think everything is difficult, and there is always a price to pay for the bounty of nature. Resources are now and always will be in short supply, and we must therefore compete with others to get our share. Such people are mired in a stone-age mentality. The only resources we lack are knowledge and science. Knowledge is power, and with it we can unlock the unthinkably vast material and energy resources of the earth, and ultimately of the entire solar system. . . ." All notions of wealth and poverty, and probably the entire notion of economic systems will become meaningless in the distant future. This is the trend of history already, as I point out in chapter 21. By the standards of the past, all of us in the first world are fabulously wealthy and we all have godlike powers. In some poverty-stricken third world countries in Africa politics, corruption, war, overpopulation and lack of resources have kept people in misery against their will. But in the Middle East countries such as Iran, Iraq and Egypt there is plenty of wealth and education. These people have, in effect, chosen to make themselves miserable. Their problem is culture, history and politics, not religion. Muslim people in India and in the US are as wealthy as anyone else. As a US Army general said the other day regarding Iraq, they have to choose whether "they love their children more than they hate their neighbor." So far, they have chosen hate. But that may change. You never know what people will do next. We have free will. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 18:52:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C1q1tL029650; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:52:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C1pxHV029627; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:51:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:51:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,116,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="661939882:sNHT19733700" Message-ID: <1475132003.1155347512501.JavaMail.root fepweb07> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:51:52 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7C1psZL029580 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Edmund Storms wrote: > The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and > distracting to what is actually happening. War is a means to > gain power over others. War no longer makes a distinction > between those who are fighting and those who are not. Both > are killed with equal intensity, although it is still > fashionable to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral > damage or a tragic mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools > of war become more efficient and terrorism, which is the > counter to those tools, become more universal, no one will > be safe. We are passing through a transition period which > has to end by people insisting on methods be used to avoid > war and the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows > this, yet we go on supporting people who insist that war is > necessary because it is very profitable for them. They are > able to continue their policy because they know how to > manipulate our fear and paranoia. But you say, real threats > exist against which we must be defended. Of course this is > true, but this is a never ending path that can not be fixed > just by making every country a democracy, as Bush plans. > The obvious consequence of this naive approach is being > demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our > creativity to explore another way. Think about that rather > than the Segway. > Ed Storms recent comments bring to mind the movie documentary I viewed last week, "Why We Fight" now available on DVD. I highly recommend it. A warning. It was depressing to watch. What really was brought to home for me was a comment made by an analyst near the end of the film where he described the United State's current actions in IRAQ as the equivalent of a nation practicing colonialism. Call me ignorant. Call me naïve as well, but in all honesty I hadn't really viewed our tragic military campaigns in IRAQ in terms of colonialism. It fits, tragically so. Our nation is forced to build up and then maintain huge troop strengths in a foreign country, all in order to prop up "cooperative" government so that we can sell products to them and, in turn, purchase natural resources at bargain basement prices. That colonialism. Its pretty obvious to most of us that we didn't invade Iraq for the sake of spreading democracy in Middle Eastern countries. It's also now pretty obvious to most of us that the excuse we had been given, the one that had been carefully orchestrated for public consumption, for the removal of WMDs, was in fact a gross manipulation of the actual facts. We are now painfully becoming aware of the fact that there actually existed strong evidence indicating that no WMDs actually existed in Iraq, evidence for which the administration had in their possession at the time critical decisions to go to war were being made, and which were deliberately and tragically ignored. Once we got in and, predictably, no WMDs were found, it really didn't matter. Bush Jr. can pontificate endlessly all he wants about the lofty ideals of spreading democracy across the planet, and particularly in a number of Arab countries. I'm sure George's handlers carefully fed him those ideals in the hope that he would start having fantasies of becoming THE president who goes down in the history books as having initiated the Bush Doctrine, where democracy would finally begin to took root and spread across the planet, particularly when all of his predecessors had failed in this noble task. Regarding the ideals of spreading democracy, I couldn't believe how naive Bush was in some of his prelude to invasion comments when he described how western "democratic" political systems should begin to take root in countries like Iraq after we pushed Saddam's regime out of the way. Of what value are the complicated checks and balances that make up the messy political structures we call "democracy" to a population that for decades has experienced nothing but a state of totalitarianism, the equivalent of a family run mafia business. How could anyone assume that the majority of Iraqis who have experienced nothing but a totalitarian regime for most of their lives would quickly chose to embrace "democracy" as a better form of government. How could anyone expect "democracies" to suddenly take root in country where a new political system is literally forced upon the population by external forces, an invading nation. True democracy has always been a home grown process. It must grow from within. "Democracy" deliberately injected into any country by an invading nation is: Colonialism. It only sparks an insurgency to oust the invaders, the infidels, so that they can get back to business-as-usual. Contradicting myself somewhat, I suspect, as much as Iraqis would have despised our presence occupying their country I suspect the vast majority of them would have chosen to keep their justified outrage in check had our administration had the foresight to plan for an orderly transition, be it the form of martial law, or some other form of military presence in every corner. If our administration had gone in with specific plans after we pushed Saddam's regime out of the way to control an orderly transition, so that shops could remain open, so that kids could go to school and businessmen could head to work without fear of being kidnapped, where the building power lines and pipelines could commence after decades of decay, where the rebuilding of a traumatized infrastructure could begin, I suspect a good portion of the Iraqi population would have perceived the unpleasant "occupation" as a lesser of two evils. Unfortunately, Bush's bid to enter the presidential fame of fame in the history books has hit a little snag along the way. But then maybe that's what those who manage business of war had intended all along. Who knows for sure. It is also a stark reminder to the voters of this country (or any country for that matter) to never, EVER, elect any man to the highest office of a nation who has not personally experienced first hand the autocracies war will inevitably bring forth, no matter how noble and justified the original intent may have been to go to war in the first place. Having on your resume that you were a weekend warrior does not count. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 19:01:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C20q1d001127; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:00:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C20mHR001093; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:00:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:00:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006701c6bdb3$1a351580$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:00:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting to > what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over others. War > no longer makes a distinction between those who are fighting and those who > are not. Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still > fashionable to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a > tragic mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more > efficient and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more > universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition period > which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to avoid war and > the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, yet we go on > supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it is very > profitable for them. They are able to continue their policy because they > know how to manipulate our fear and paranoia. But you say, real threats > exist against which we must be defended. Of course this is true, but this > is a never ending path that can not be fixed just by making every country > a democracy, as Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive > approach is being demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our > creativity to explore another way. Think about that rather than the > Segway. ========================================== Let me pose some contrarian thoughts: 1) Technology can be thought of existing on a series of plateaus. It is very difficult to ascend to the next higher plateau, but once there, one can travel far with little incremental effort. 2) The integrated circuit manufacturing process is one of most important developments in human history -- from it computers and othere digital devils and delights flow. Its stimulus was the need for microcircuitry for ICBMs -- else that plateau might not have been reached for decades. 3) Mass production is the hallmark and bane of our world, but it had its roots in the development of interchangeable parts for rifles in the Civil War. 4) An overwhemling need is necessary to focus energies to scale a plateau; it often comes from war. 5) 9/11 was a non-event. 3000 lives lost, but ten times that number die in auto accidents every year without a national outcry. A billion dollars worth of buildings destroyed? Nothing in a trillion dollar economy. But we were bloodied and the demand to be **safe** led to immense expenditures and a ill-considered war. A small investment by terrorists led us to do immense damage to our selves. 6) The obsessive demand to be safe is itself very dangerous, for it leads to unintended consequences. The recent plot to down several airplanes sent ripples around the world and threaten air commerce. Once upon a time, every ocean voyage was fraught with danger, but people went forth in ships anyway. 7) Iraq is not about cheap oil for the US. The cheap way would have been to simply buy the oil from Saddam Hussain. But that also has consequences. 8) Democracy is not a panacea, and the US is not a democracy; it is a republic shielded from voter foolishness by the Electoral College who can pull us back from the brink of disaster by refusing to elect a popular demagogue. The Founding Fathers had a horror of pure democracy as illustrated by any number of elected idiots in other countries. What is needed is a peaceful way to despose kelptocratic leaders without the mess of a revolution. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 19:25:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C2P9OG010183; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:25:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C2P8Aj010168; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:25:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:25:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006c01c6bdb6$82fca210$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <1475132003.1155347512501.JavaMail.root fepweb07> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:24:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products I just posted a response to Ed's remarks, and now I wish to comment on Steve's thoughtful observations. I will snip both for brevity. The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq conflict is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the world is that we have no real taste for Empire. We would not list the daily casualties on the evening news without balancing it with the number of domestic murders and automobile deaths that day. To the Eurpoean colonial powers, manipulation of populaces and losses of life in suppressing rebellions was simply the price of empire, not an object of daily lamentation. Every time we exert military force it is too little to really control the situation and the demand for early withdrawal is not the act of a colonial power. It could be argued that the US conducts cultural and mercantile colonialism through Coke, McDonalds, etc. We may be masters of the art of advertising persuasion, but we do not force anyone to buy our products. On balance, we buy more than we sell. As I pointed out in my other post, the cheap way to get Iraq oil would be to have bought it from Saddam Hussein at market price. When Britian controlled India, it bought raw materials and forced the purchase of manufactured goods, including salt. One of Ghandi's stunts was to lead a march to the sea to evaporate sea water to salt, defying Britain's ban on Indians "making salt". Bush bashing is a current sport, but the context of US arrogance, ignorance, and lack of understanding of other cultures goes back through many presidents and has some basis in US religious extremism and apocalyptic expectations. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 19:48:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C2m6Mh020389; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:48:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C2m4st020357; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:48:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:48:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "List - Vortex" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <410-22006839152156427 earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wonder if this couldn't be adapted as a safe storage & production method for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.... maybe not with beer cans per se (look officer, I'm just trying to get to work here. hee hee), but with blocks, rods, or pellets of material. Aluminum is not terribly cheep, but it is the most abundant element on the planet (most people think it's iron). There are probably lesser refined grades that could be cost effectively employed if properly adapted for this purpose. Might be fun to do a D.O.E. on the process to find the 80/20 that maximizes the H2 production rate... once that analysis is complete, it should be pretty simple to figure out whether or not it's a viable vehicle fuel source strategy. Reminds me of 'Back to the Future' when the professor comes back from the future at the end of the movie and digs through the trash for empty beverage cans and banana peels to power the food processor looking mini fusion reactor he's installed on the back of the car... -john -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:22 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Are we there yet? [snip] you can dissolve Zinc, or Aluminum beer cans in a warm aqueous NaOH or KOH (lye) solution in a steel vessel and generate H2 like gangbusters . This forms a water soluble Zincate or Aluminate "Catalyst". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 19:56:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C2ueR8024789; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:56:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C2ucJt024761; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:56:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:56:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:56:33 -0400 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5bf3235bed16.5bed165bf323 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

----- Original Message -----

From: Philip Winestone <philip.winestone rogers.com>

Date: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 pm

Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

> "Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and
> donations, and
> it has harvested brain power from all over the world."
>
> Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so
> that mere
> mortals like myself can understand it?
>
> P.

I understand it...

..but I don't know if it is correct.

Harry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 03:36:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CAaixb009729; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:36:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CAaaMb009677; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <044601c6bdf3$b53156d0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060811175941.040f8d70@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:43:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7CAaTPc009592 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many good points Jed, except perhaps your conclusion "We have free will" which may be something we can't help thinking :) Talking about Cold Fusion and climate, it just occurred to me that unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming, unlike solar cells, wind power or biomass burning for example. Have you quantified this in your prospective work? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Edmund Storms wrote: > >>Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy >>would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than >>they presently are. > > Probably, but that will be their choice, and the outcome will be their fault. > > >>The countries have long since exhausted the environment of useful >>minerals, the climate is too dry for extensive agriculture, and most >>of the soil is poor thanks to centuries of poor management. > > As I pointed out in my book, with cold fusion you can make any > climate as wet as you like, with a massive desalination project. You > can also reverse soil depletion, and for that matter, you can grow > all of your food indoors and not worry about the land (although I > hope people will worry about it, and take care of it). All of these > things can be done, but whether they will be done or not is a matter > of choice or free will. > > >> A country needs to produce something the rest of the world wants. > > I do not think that will be as true in the future. I think people > will be more autonomous, particularly in the far distant future when > manufacturing is done entirely with robots and local resources are > intensely recycled using high-energy techniques. However, any country > anywhere can produce something the rest of the world wants. Places > like Japan and Singapore have practically no material resources. If > resources mattered, Japan would be dirt poor and Mexico would be one > of the wealthiest countries in the world. > > As I said in the book, and just this week translated into Japanese: > > "Many people have a sneaking suspicion that cold fusion must be too > good to be true, because nature never does something for nothing. > They think everything is difficult, and there is always a price to > pay for the bounty of nature. Resources are now and always will be in > short supply, and we must therefore compete with others to get our > share. Such people are mired in a stone-age mentality. The only > resources we lack are knowledge and science. Knowledge is power, and > with it we can unlock the unthinkably vast material and energy > resources of the earth, and ultimately of the entire solar system. . . ." > > All notions of wealth and poverty, and probably the entire notion of > economic systems will become meaningless in the distant future. This > is the trend of history already, as I point out in chapter 21. By the > standards of the past, all of us in the first world are fabulously > wealthy and we all have godlike powers. > > In some poverty-stricken third world countries in Africa politics, > corruption, war, overpopulation and lack of resources have kept > people in misery against their will. But in the Middle East countries > such as Iran, Iraq and Egypt there is plenty of wealth and education. > These people have, in effect, chosen to make themselves miserable. > Their problem is culture, history and politics, not religion. Muslim > people in India and in the US are as wealthy as anyone else. As a US > Army general said the other day regarding Iraq, they have to choose > whether "they love their children more than they hate their > neighbor." So far, they have chosen hate. But that may change. You > never know what people will do next. We have free will. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 09:15:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CGFZkQ029196; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:15:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CGFWV4029164; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:15:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:15:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <44DDFC8C.608801D5 centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:06:37 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811202455.01e4e440@pop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xs" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xs" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: ...we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it is very profitable for them.... Philip Winestone wrote: This makes the assumption that we're all too dumb to see through this ... Hi Everyone, How dumb are we? Has it occurred to any of us that the oil gang's blundering conduct of the war in Iraq is a major factor in the increase in the price of oil, and that the owners of oil wells are going laughing to the bank? We can't leave Iraq because if we do, the Iranian army will march in; but don't underestimate how stupid we appear to our rulers. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 09:40:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CGe39f007578; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:40:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CGVo4E004210; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:31:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:31:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CgeChCtZo4r4jL9QhvuZokJdMXToH0lZSbHkjxt1M3RMqCZUipT4nq4GzZUJzxEa; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24183231.1155400305266.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:31:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ce580003cb0855d4fe21eb81d6547bd40fcaf58f82119dc32350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: <_qmSw.A.pBB.2Jg3EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Talking about Cold Fusion and climate, it just occurred to me that unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming . . . I do not think so. I did some checking on this, although not exhastive. I think this is not a problem because: 1. Unimpeded waste heat is radiated into space in about a half hour, which is why the desert cools down so quickly at night. 2. There is no evidence that the heat from fossil fuel or fission reactors is contributing to global warming, although it does contribute to urban "heat islands" that affect weather. The gigantic concentrated heat releases and steam from fission and coal plants kills millions of birds and other animals -- far more than wind turbines do -- but they do not contribute to global warming. Cold fusion will eliminate most of these locally concentrated large scale releases, by dispersing generating capacity. 3. Solar heat and forest fires are orders of magnitude greater than waste heat from human sources. 4. I expect that cold fusion devices will be so much more efficient than conventional fossil fuel and fission devices, overall primary energy consumption will decline in the first 50 to 100 years. I discussed some of these issues in the book. In the Index, see: "Efficiency, continued importance with cold fusion," and chapters 14 and 15. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 11:22:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CIMbNK019791; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:22:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CIMaL5019776; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44DE1CD1.2070407 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:24:17 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8@pop> In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8 pop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > "Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and donations, > and it has harvested brain power from all over the world." > > Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so that > mere mortals like myself can understand it? Well, hopefully without boring or pissing off too many people, here is my very brief history of Israel. It starts with WWI, after which Germany was improvised by the treaty of Versailles. Hitler took advantage of the desperate situation by promising to restore the grandeur of the state and make life better. However, he needed money to do this. The Jews had money and they were generally resented by the Germans. So he stole the money by making the Jews appear to be the cause of Germany's problems. People will believe anything when they are desperate or afraid. However, he could not simply make the Jews improvised without having to feed them and put up with a lot of trouble, so he decided to kill them - thus started the death camps. After the war, people in general and the surviving Jews in particular were outraged and embarrassed that such a great crime was allowed to happen. So the state of Israel was created. Unfortunately, this required stealing land and homes from the people who lived in Palestine where Israel was to be located. From the Jew's point of view, this was ok because God had given this land to them centuries ago and it was subsequently stolen from them. So, some Palestinians were placed in camps and others were pushed into land outside of Israel. As anyone with half a mind would predict, the displaced people were unhappy and began to cause trouble. After several wars with the unhappy neighbors and displaced people, the boundaries of Israel were extended to where they are today. Meanwhile, the displaced people have grown more resentful about their treatment and more powerful in creating problems for Israel. Terrorism is being used to counter the overwhelming military might of Israel and the US, with the US paying an increasing price for being associated with Israel. Meanwhile, Israel has had to devote a large fraction of its gross national product to military defense including an expensive nuclear weapons program. Israel is a small country that has neither oil, gold, nor diamonds to sell. It does not make cars sold all over the world nor does it make large numbers of high-end electronic products like Japan and Korea. How does this small country pay for the huge overhead this military defense requires? The answer is, it gets the money from the US as our largest receiver of foreign aid and it gets donations from rich individuals who want Israel to survive. Meanwhile the cost keeps going up for everyone. No one seems able to find a solution because the Israelis are good guys and the other guys are terrorists and, therefore, bad. Israel bombs an innocent country killing many noncombatants. The response is rockets having the same effect, but on a smaller scale. People in that part of the world now hate the US and are starting to give us a taste of what has become modern combat. All of this was caused by the way Israel was created and it will continue because desperation, paranoia, resentment, and fear on both sides have now become institutionalized. Unfortunately, the other side in the conflict now knows that the US is weak because we are overextended in Iraq, because we are addicted to oil, which is easy for people to deny us, and because we have created a financial nightmare within our own country. Consider this, the housing market is in collapse because of higher interest rates, which are required because we need to borrow so much money from other countries; as the price of gas goes up the US car companies are being pushed closer to bankruptcy; and US airlines are already on the ropes and will probably be pushed over the edge by this latest terrorist threat even though no one died. In other words, thanks to our past policies, the bad guys have a good chance of bring down the house of cards. Of course, in other parts of the world, these guys are not considered bad, especially if they win. So, the question is, what can we do about the situation? This just might be a question worth considering before it is too late. Ed > > P. > > > > > > At 02:56 PM 8/11/2006 -0600, you wrote: > > >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>> On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: >>> >>>> We need to use our creativity to explore another way. >>> >>> >>> That's easy: >>> 1) Make energy free. >> >> >> Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy >> would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than they >> presently are. Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US >> and donations, and it has harvested brain power from all over the >> world. The countries have long since exhausted the environment of >> useful minerals, the climate is too dry for extensive agriculture, and >> most of the soil is poor thanks to centuries of poor management. A >> country needs to produce something the rest of the world wants. Of >> course, if we did not need oil, we would ignore the internal conflicts >> there just like we do when they occur in countries of Africa where oil >> is not present. Thanks to the tools of terrorism, people who are >> sufficiently unhappy can no longer be ignored. >> >>> 2) Eliminate religion. >> >> >> Religion is the only concept that justifies being as good as we are. >> Very few people are "good" just because it is their nature. Granted, >> religion is taken to extreme, but all ideas are taken to extreme >> sooner or later. If religion and the rules it imposes are not >> applied, what do you suggest be used in its place? >> >>> It's only the path which is in question. >> >> >> That is true. How do we get people to follow the best path? >> >> Ed >> >>> Terry > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 13:51:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CKpO7C031330; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:51:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CKpM2R031304; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:51:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:51:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=HyvqBXVoPEFXSPOTtgIssMaw2UJwf0veHiGBmTzSOkkSpsDXBNSKRfdF9CLLhMrfDSB8tFJKsvEhDgOwrg4MQI6vn4HNfZUREtOhULKmzZ7/GtdqQTmOMCdMqUt+QxiJZDl7qDnbpU7B1B0NlKTwOi3C+sG0CjP87GP/mTV+HwI= ; Message-ID: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) Status: O X-Status: Tip of the Day... (for waterfuel enthusiasts everywhere) The redox potential for splitting HO-OH is listed as 0.77 V, a little more than half the level for H2O. In practice, one might expect perhaps twice the amount of hydrogen gas from the electrolysis of peroxide, as one gets from water, using the same net amount of electrical input. WRONG! It is more like 12-1 to 15-1. One might expect that if one carried a dilute peroxide solution in an automobile, as a substitue fuel, that there is no way that it can be split using only power from the car's alternator to make enough hydrogen to power the vehicle. WRONG. This can be done - even using a dilute soution of peroxide (in salt water) which is probably safe enough for normal transportation use (will not explode spontaneously). Try it - especially if you have a mulitplate hydrobooster. The design we are using has 8 stainless steel plates, not unlike the one Terry Blanton has built except fewer larger plates, spaced further apart, with only the ends being powered. A few drugists carry 35% HO-OH which is more than adequate. CAVEAT: The corrosiveness of this technique in unknown, but is likely severe, and can be expected to significantly shorten the lifetime of an ICE ! ergo - experiment only on a junker (or better yet a Junkers, which has no valves to corrode): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_205 Jones PS you will only get the massively increased amount of gas for a certain time period which is based on the initial peroxide enrichment. The gas output starts out strongly and decreases gradually as the peroxide is used up preferentially. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 13:53:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CKqumR031885; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:52:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CKqsfw031868; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:52:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:52:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=BTP6SD/R8Ldmt/d4nUNmmUAfvi8zcoPLflpS/bDJ0o8RhD8lOvUro6bY3slrWVz6; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <25231095.1155415973050.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:52:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ce580003cb0855d4f2d49aba9e3a2c5869832e244e1b66349350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ratio of solar to manmade energy Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >3. Solar heat and forest fires are orders of magnitude greater than waste heat from human sources. Roughly 4 orders, to be more precise. Solar energy intercepted by earth: 10E17 W Total primary energy production: 12 TW = 1.2*10E13 W This shows why bioenergy systems are nonsense. They can never supply enough energy. The average year-round efficiency of photosynthesis is ~0.1%. In other words, if we collected every leaf, stick, blade of grass and gram of algae that grows on earth, we would have barely enough fuel. If cold fusion increase our total primary energy production by an order of magnitude it may start to have a serious effect on the environment. As I said, the best way to fix that problem would be to put the energy consuming applications off-earth. The other advantage to doing that is that we can use solar to do some REALLY big applications, such as building and launching 1 billion DWT class starships (starships bigger than all of the ocean-going ship presently on earth, which total ~900 million DWT). Why not? Solar energy is out there, going to waste as it were, at the rate of 4*10E23 W. Why not make use of it? We might decide to ablate 1/300th of Jupiter to assemble a new planet designed for optimum human living conditions. As long as there is no life on Jupiter I see no harm in doing that, although I suppose nature preservationists may object. I say think big. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 15:17:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CMGn9L009715; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:16:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CMGgYe009665; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:16:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:16:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K/32UfgMYFU79zEHvvuiEz/I1QUg3cNmDMEKUaD/CaT/Y6PFp58A/xlkG21gGHUHXvRLCA4GAFjKi/1eKnlOaVHBmdftZzH/O5MK5Dd5Yr+Jf1hC5NWBxaEr7eioj8fQn61Iav0/QkKx8qarTOjQOXElnEn8bWk0m/HdjG22TDE= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:16:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) In-Reply-To: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/12/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Try it - especially if you have a mulitplate > hydrobooster. The design we are using has 8 stainless > steel plates, not unlike the one Terry Blanton has > built except fewer larger plates, spaced further > apart, with only the ends being powered. Well, we will test it. I am building a hydrobooster for testing the hypothesis. Tomorrow I will build a 7 plate electrolyser and test the amount of NaCl needed to limit the current to 25 A at 12 VDC. We will then test distilled water in an old SAAB (Tom's truck was in an accident recently.) The subject has data showing he got roughtly 30 mpg before. He will run the distilled w/ NaCl for a tank then he will run my "charged water" for a tank. Hopefully, we will have answers within a couple of weeks. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 16:01:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CN0Ynn029406; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CMU5Kx017265; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:30:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:30:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hB1Y9VQnH8obn89GI8wBB17qKccIKsdkilJONuOsb/cRJOtkfiBtro1Py+3S/PYGS6cYashC+Brh7jx7NVzuPUSkaSkdw3UzJCk9n/0jFjGfuxx7uSRIhPtEs5zS6BmfFu8Wv84eWPNlgA5NB8fSjJ4+R4n/QIGqr6KdhpdKbxs= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:29:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/12/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Tomorrow I will build a 7 plate electrolyser and test the > amount of NaCl needed to limit the current to 25 A at 12 VDC. Seven is chosen to provide one extra cathode since H2 is formed there. However, chemistry says the ratio does not change. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 16:37:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CNb8L3019139; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:37:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CNb62x019124; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:37:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:37:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c6be68$3469e830$ccdd163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com><44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com><44DCEEFC.8070205@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8@pop><44DE1CD1.2070407@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060812150801.01e53ab8@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:36:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <--WzY.A.uqE.iYm3EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My $0.51 (adjusted for inflation and rising energy costs): 1. I think the matter of "who stole what land from who to make who's nation" is a moot point from a serious point of view. Israel is a free, industrialized technological nation. They have a large number of scientists and do not fly planes into buildings of other free nations. Other middle eastern nations do not hold up to what Israel has accomplished. The only claim to fame the other middle eastern nations have is oil. When that is no longer needed, they will probably either collapse into oblivion or be attacked and utterly destroyed by the many enemies they have made. So to be sort of practical about it, Israel is doing much better with the land under their control, so they deserve it more. 2. I will wager that if true superpowers still existed (the US is sort of borderline at this point) and set their minds to getting the technological world at large off of oil, and onto something cheap as dirt and easily made, the Sheiks and such would exist in a state of mortal terror: they would know that they have made so many enemies, and that they are no longer needed at all to maintain the superpower's quality of living. I would suspect that they would not be invaded....complete annihilation would probably be more likely. Would I shed a tear given what has been done over the years? No. 3. Some people, who I feel are so stupid that they do not deserve to be using the same supply of O2 that I am using, have suggested that this is the "second holocaust" and what is being done to Muslims is the same as what was done to the Jewish. Jews do not fly planes into buildings! Neither do Christians! What the hell is wrong here people? 4. WHY DO AMERICANS HATE THEMSELVES SO F-----G MUCH!!!!!?? I do not give a damn what happens to the people that train their kids to blow innocent people to bits, hijack planes to be used as flying bombs, nerve gas their own people, MURDER people of other religions just for that sake, etc. Those people need to die! It really is the good versus bad when you get down to it, but the good practice so much self-hate and "doubting that the American way is the right way" that we are never unified, and so we are LOSING the war against these worthless, murdering scum. 5. We should NOT restrict what we allow in planes any more. We should have taken the "people" who were trying to perform this latest act of terror and publicly execute them. Then tell the people of the "religion of peace" to try it again, and risk the daytime temperature of Syria reaching >1,000,000K. 6. I do not care that Lebanon is getting the dog-snot kicked out of them. I hope it continues until their entire military-industrial base is devastated to a point beyond any hope of repair. They have given support to a group whose stated charter goal is the elimination of Israel and who want to see the Jews driven into the sea. If Lebanon is so peaceful why did they allow this cancerous growth in their midst? People die in war, that is a fact of life, and people need to grow up and accept this. Israel is protecting itself, and more power to them. I am sick and tired of this self hate. The people over here living cushy nice lives while badmouthing the self-same nation that lets them enjoy that life are the ones who should be driven into the deep blue sea. If you want to say that I am just Muslim bashing, don't even try it. None of what I have said is half as vitriolic as the garbage I have heard people spouting about Jews and Christians. If I seem angry, you're right. I am. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 16:56:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CNu8vc026976; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CNu7Ct026952; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:56:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:56:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:56:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <59qsd29f426cjd42323ri0u0ucdcobtqji 4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060811175941.040f8d70@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811175941.040f8d70 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:55:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7CNu0fp026886 Resent-Message-ID: <25b8HD.A.ElG.Wqm3EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:20:59 -0400: Hi, [snip] >As a US >Army general said the other day regarding Iraq, they have to choose >whether "they love their children more than they hate their >neighbor." So far, they have chosen hate. But that may change. You >never know what people will do next. We have free will. There are three aspects to the struggle in Iraq. The first is about who controls the country's oil wealth (the oil is in the south and the north, so the Sunnis (in the middle) are afraid of being shut out), and the second is about getting Iraq to weaken itself through internal strife (this gets *no* media attention), and the third is about getting rid of the US. The first and the last would be moot with the advent of free energy (since the US would leave then anyway). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 17:03:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D03WDw030224; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:03:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D03VjB030206; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:03:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:03:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:03:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811202455.01e4e440@pop> In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060811202455.01e4e440 pop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:03:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D03SvK030186 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Philip Winestone's message of Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:45:22 -0400: Hi, [snip] >"...we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it >is very profitable for them...." This makes the assumption that we're all >too dumb to see through this. No, it makes the assumption that most people are too dumb to see through this. And that is fact. Take for example the public popularity of the current war in Iraq, back just before Dubya declared it. (After a veritable media frenzy). There was even a majority for the war on this forum, despite my rubbing your collective noses in it, yet most here have above average intelligence, so what chance does the average person on the street stand? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 17:22:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D0MTxv004364; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:22:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D0MSU3004352; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:22:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:22:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:22:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8@pop> <44DE1CD1.2070407@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <44DE1CD1.2070407 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:22:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D0MP5B004326 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:24:17 -0600: Hi, [snip] >So, the question is, what can we do about the situation? This just >might be a question worth considering before it is too late. > Redirect US foreign aid normally destined for Israel to the reconstruction of Lebanon. That will bring the Israelis down a peg or two, and it seems only just that they pay (even if only indirectly) for the deliberate damage they have done. Even the threat of doing this might convince them to deal more equitably with the Palestinians, which would resolve many of the problems in the Middle-East. Of course this isn't going to happen. Much of the aid Israel receives is in the form of arms and ammunition, so Dubya's buddies make a bundle on it at the expense of the American taxpayer. Furthermore, a militarily powerful Israel in itself is seen as safeguarding US oil interests in the region. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 18:07:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D10L6H017352; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:00:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D0oYOS014041; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:50:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:50:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3itsd2tk3luijc5kosmuqn5lp818dssjpf 4ax.com> References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:50:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D0oRmw013974 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:16:41 -0400: Hi, [snip] >He will run the distilled w/ NaCl for a tank then he will run my NaCl might not be the best choice. Apart from the fact that it tends to create corrosive byproducts, and toxic chlorine gas, it doesn't contain any Mills catalysts. Better choices would be K2CO3, KOH, LiOH. >"charged water" for a tank. Hopefully, we will have answers within a >couple of weeks. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 18:07:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D10L6J017352; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:00:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D0waM0016594; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:58:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:53:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:53:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D0wWRY016538 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:29:51 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 8/12/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Tomorrow I will build a 7 plate electrolyser and test the >> amount of NaCl needed to limit the current to 25 A at 12 VDC. > >Seven is chosen to provide one extra cathode since H2 is formed there. > However, chemistry says the ratio does not change. :-) > >Terry 7 plates in series should yield 6 cells 2V each, which means you should get gas evolution on both sides of all plates, however you may need to take measures to ensure that the electrolyte is separated by the plates. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 18:21:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D1LU8N026756; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:21:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D1LS14026732; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:21:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:21:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:21:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> In-Reply-To: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 01:21:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D1LPDD026700 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Fri, 11 Aug 2006 7:49:02 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Today we have the sexy Tesla all-electric Roadster, delivering the equivalent of 135 miles per gallon with a 250 mile range per charge. According to Tesla, the batteries are good for 500 recharges. If you recharge the batteries every night, they are going to need replacing after 18 months(?). If you don't recharge every night, then you need to keep a careful eye on the charge level so that you know which night you *do* need to recharge. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 18:53:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D1rPlT006670; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D1rNKX006656; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c6be73$a0c43ed0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25231095.1155415973050.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:58:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D1rLL4006634 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ratio of solar to manmade energy Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: ... > Solar energy intercepted by earth: 10E17 W Let me see, pi*r^2 times 1kW/m^2, that's 3.14*(6E6)^2*1E3 ~= 100E12*1E3 = 1E17 W, I guess that's what you meant. > Total primary energy production: 12 TW = 1.2*10E13 W 1.2E13 W I guess (E stands for "times 10 to the power...") ... > If cold fusion increase our total primary energy production by an order of magnitude it may start to have a serious effect on the environment. That's what I said, "unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming", but I had no idea the effect was that significant! The tenfold increase in global energy consumption you evoke would only mean 1.2E14/1E10 W = 12 kW for each of the ~10 billion humans the planet will bear in a few years, that's about the consumption per average US citizen _today_ isn't it? It seems this is a real problem. Have you worked out the amplitude of the global temperature increase in this scenario? Michel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 19:21:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D2KrEQ017355; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:20:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D2Kqwo017338; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:20:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:20:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ratio of solar to manmade energy Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:20:41 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <25231095.1155415973050.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <002e01c6be73$a0c43ed0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <002e01c6be73$a0c43ed0$3800a8c0 zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.65.27] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:20:40 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D2Kfu7017278 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:58:42 +0200: Hi, [snip] >That's what I said, "unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming", but I had no idea the effect was that significant! The tenfold increase in global energy consumption you evoke would only mean >1.2E14/1E10 W = 12 kW >for each of the ~10 billion humans the planet will bear in a few years, that's about the consumption per average US citizen _today_ isn't it? > >It seems this is a real problem. Have you worked out the amplitude of the global temperature increase in this scenario? First, even a ten fold increase in energy use would only equal 1/1000 of the normal solar flux, so our influence would be minor. In the second instance, this is compensated for by an increase in temperature resulting in an increase in radiation. Since radiation goes as the fourth power of temperature, even an extremely small increase in temperature would be enough to dump the excess energy. (If memory serves, and I didn't get the arithmetic wrong the first time around, about 1/50 ºC would suffice). This is clearly trivial compared to the effect of global warming caused by greenhouse gasses (which would of course be eliminated by conversion to CF). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 19:29:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D2TaQd022084; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:29:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D2TZRQ022068; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:29:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PCS4Wzrfwks4Bopnkf+OLIdplysTnZQEjz2jgF4UXv18hfZ5GmQUm32DJ6bkmCRF72czHQJbmFeCN4WSGF26anjDGOmu1pgDgi0y0GM5Vlg7L+NmYD/h0jnlWgsicBiWbWP0sIs+GU8qq60MU/XBxjoQ+17vmribm8RL8jYP0SU= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:29:34 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) In-Reply-To: <3itsd2tk3luijc5kosmuqn5lp818dssjpf 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3itsd2tk3luijc5kosmuqn5lp818dssjpf 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/12/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > NaCl might not be the best choice. Apart from the fact that it > tends to create corrosive byproducts, and toxic chlorine gas, it > doesn't contain any Mills catalysts. Better choices would be > K2CO3, KOH, LiOH. KOH is less corrosive than NaCl??? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 19:34:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D2YgEJ026849; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:34:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D2YfvP026828; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:34:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Hf9of9v1HWKW9yl5pqlbV4zYQQgmkXXXO2UanLbo7AKIW6g9ndwMdtmFYDlS+hz1+A4fYkYT+jctOJQTPpj3tY8aKZCM8Dwa+xfCpMlRW+yGd5wwM/wtZaA17aJSg11nwADRFkHV+VfTo4Q+M4Auc+LzmbIOZaGQVba+1CJUWyI= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:39 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/12/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:> > According to Tesla, the batteries are good for 500 recharges. If > you recharge the batteries every night, they are going to need > replacing after 18 months(?). If you don't recharge every night, > then you need to keep a careful eye on the charge level so that > you know which night you *do* need to recharge. Li-ion partial charges are just that. Li-ion batteries do not suffer from the "memory effect" of NiCad; so, 1000 half-charges is equivalent to 500 full-charges. So, at 250 miles per charge, the Tesla should get over 100,000 miles per battery life regardless of how many times it is actually "plugged-in". Or so I am told. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 20:34:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D3Y5LY020536; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:34:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D3Xtts020417; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:33:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:33:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=fHMTrejXOjBk4DfQjb+uM2A1ZEi1QD0uMP+WdXtP6uPGE7FYePaMSW1Z4lTVZVD/; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <8441480.1155439638701.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:27:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ratio of solar to manmade energy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ce580003cb0855d4ff53c8be16b097fe7d829a220c72ff4be350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D3Xl13020362 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >> If cold fusion increase our total primary energy production by an order of magnitude it may start to have a serious effect on the environment. > >That's what I said, "unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming", but I had no idea the effect was that significant! The tenfold increase in global energy consumption you evoke would only mean >1.2E14/1E10 W = 12 kW >for each of the ~10 billion humans the planet will bear in a few years, that's about the consumption per average US citizen _today_ isn't it? The average U.S. citizen uses about 5 times more energy than the world average. However, about half of this energy is wasted in ways that cold fusion will prevent. For example, as shown in chapter 14 of my book, in the U.S. 27 quads are lost to waste heat in electric power generation. This is 7% of total world energy production. With cold fusion, this will be reduced by a factor of 5 or 10. Present-day energy systems are grotesquely wasteful for two reasons: 1. People do not care about the cost of energy or pollution. We throw away money. Our average automobile gasoline gas mileage, for example, is only 20 mpg. Thirty years ago we knew how to make it 40 mpg and today with plug in hybrids we could make it 250 mpg, but nobody cares enough to do it. 2. We still use stone-age energy sources such as coal. These are dangerous, inflexible and wasteful. Cold fusion will be so much easier to work with, and so much more flexible, it will make it impossible to engineer such crude and wasteful machinery. That would be like trying to make a semiconductor-based desktop computer that consumes as much energy as ENIAC (120 kW). I really do not think you need to worry about waste heat from cold fusion energy. Cold fusion would solve so many problems and improve things in so many ways that even if a mild increase finally did occur, it would not come for decades, and it would be more than counter-balanced by the improvements. To take one example, people in the third world burn a horrendous amount of kerosene for lighting (illumination). This is wasteful, dangerous, expensive and bad for their health. Compared to electric lighting, it is between 120 and 250 times less efficient; it costs about a thousand times more per lumen; and it kills tens of thousands of people with fire and smoke damage to the lungs. We could fix this easily even without cold fusion, with LED windup power or solar-cells+batteries (which sell like hotcakes in Africa). With cold fusion, I cannot imagine how we would NOT fix it, since CF would be so much cheaper than kerosene. The people living in the third-world are not fools, so they will buy it instead of spending a large fraction of their income on kerosene. Regarding illumination, see: http://cee45q.stanford.edu/2003/briefing_book/technical.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 21:01:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7D41bQ7001340; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:01:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7D41Z6A001315; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:01:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,118,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="726428790:sNHT52675580" Message-ID: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:01:33 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7D41XZd001296 Resent-Message-ID: <1uaQB.A.fU.fQq3EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: Cutting to the chase, here. ... > I am sick and tired of this self hate. The people over here living cushy > nice lives while badmouthing the self-same nation that lets them enjoy that > life are the ones who should be driven into the deep blue sea. If you want > to say that I am just Muslim bashing, don't even try it. None of what I have > said is half as vitriolic as the garbage I have heard people spouting about > Jews and Christians. > > If I seem angry, you're right. I am. > --Kyle I can sympathize with your sense of outrage. However, are you willing to acknowledge the sense of outrage that also exists on the other side as well? It's possible it may not have been your intention but from my perspective you seem to be involved in religion bashing. To that I would say, bashing any religion, be it Muslin, Judaism, Christianity, or whatever misses a crucial point. It only fans the flames. The kinds of spectacular carnage most rational human beings abhor, such as flying commercial airlines into buildings, or walking into a public place and blowing themselves up, are performed for the most part by fascists and extremists. They are not religious acts, even though I'm sure the perpetrators have convinced themselves that their actions are motivated by religious faith. Such acts of carnage are performed as the result of having nurtured a unique blend hatred to the extreme, one that has been carefully cultivated and then given an outlet, all to suit the goals of a small collection very shrewd extremists whose own goals are to assure that their own kind, their particular way of life, is vaulted to the top of the pecking order. In order to legitimize their special brew of hatred these fascists and extremist have hijacked the local religion. Any religion will do. It's just that typically it's the one they grew up in that that gets hijacked in order to legitimize the need to act on their predilections. The point I'm trying to make is to bash any particular religion is a fruitless endeavor that reduces one to endless finger pointing. It is likely to be a more productive endeavor (and, unfortunately, a far more difficult task) to get to the root of what makes individuals transform their mind, body, and soul into the mindset of an extremist who sees personal glory in transforming themselves into a cruise missile. In the collective sense I think it would wiser of us if we were to try to find ways to help promote more productive outlets in which such predilections can express themselves. I realize my suggestion is likely to sound a tad esoteric or possibly even naïve by some. Nevertheless, a population that is better educated, a population that understands the issues as they exist on BOTH SIDES of the border is more likely to begrudgingly acknowledge the fact that both sides will need to perform an equal amount of sacrificing. If both sides can acknowledge to each other, and especially to themselves, that an equal amount of personal sacrifice IS transpiring on both sides of the border, that is more likely to foster a lasting peace. Better education is also more likely to keep the extremist elements and their particular need to act on their predilections better in check. The alternative would be to continue participating in random acts of religion bashing, to act on their particular brew of predilections, and that is just plain stupid. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/OrionWorks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 07:12:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DEBxbJ000719; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:11:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DEBq7B000678; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:11:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:11:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=JQhUwDVJRXEkRmrNvoU1lpdhFr0TMB9GWAsXyQtgQ6fr5teCKhYK2w7WJoQLpz3Yk4YuFj0LZAIIObKNWcwa6VXgQg/QJfbwDw/toJGUEo74uxDitd8RzSn+2rZYnK74HPefbvaX1c43DA8/uMzj92BddoWFPH8XhGFbxy8mpRg= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:11:49 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles Status: O X-Status: http://www.didik.com/ev_hist.htm Did you know that EVs were popular among women when ICE vehicles had hand cranked starters? Lots of piccys. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 07:23:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DENWVf005825; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:23:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DENVOM005808; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:23:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:23:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008001c6bec9$dcd183a0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25231095.1155415973050.JavaMail.root mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <002e01c6be73$a0c43ed0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:15:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7DENNfa005760 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ratio of solar to manmade energy Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ratio of solar to manmade energy > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:58:42 > +0200: > Hi, > [snip] >>That's what I said, "unlimited cheap energy of non solar origin for the masses will necessarily promote global warming", but I had no idea the effect was that significant! The tenfold increase in global energy consumption you evoke would only mean >>1.2E14/1E10 W = 12 kW >>for each of the ~10 billion humans the planet will bear in a few years, that's about the consumption per average US citizen _today_ isn't it? >> >>It seems this is a real problem. Have you worked out the amplitude of the global temperature increase in this scenario? > > First, even a ten fold increase in energy use would only equal > 1/1000 of the normal solar flux, agreed > so our influence would be minor. > In the second instance, this is compensated for by an increase in > temperature resulting in an increase in radiation. indeed thermal equilibrium implies that radiated power is equal to collected + generated power, so a 1/1000 increase in the latter results in a 1/1000 inscrease in the former > Since radiation > goes as the fourth power of temperature, right, Stefan-Boltzmann law P=Constant*T^4, cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body > even an extremely small > increase in temperature would be enough to dump the excess energy. > (If memory serves, and I didn't get the arithmetic wrong the first > time around, about 1/50 ºC would suffice). Let's see, P=Constant*T^4 => dP/dT=4*Constant*T^3=4*P/T => dT=dP*T/(4*P)=(dP/P)*T/4 In the present scenario DP/P=1/1000 and T ~= 300K so dT ~= 300/4000 = 0.075 °C i.e. about 4 times your estimate if I got it right, even so it is much smaller than the ~6°C global cooling due to elimination of greenhouse gases by converting to CF (or any nuclear energy) as you said, so it's not a problem in fact. Even a 100 fold increase in primary energy use would be OK if we switch to all-nuke , as it would only raise global temp by 10*0.075 °C = 0.75°C. It would take a 1000 fold increase roughly for the P increase warming to compensate the CO2 decrease cooling (about 6°C). Michel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 08:26:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DFQ0G0004816; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:26:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DFPxol004806; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:25:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:25:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LJHjQgYLEI+rlifbxd3a3nToyfI80f/SKhXCLDiOf8glV9b93XW+RclSpGPQ7suNUgeh3w9YXempyT1qFfcYPzp7ZYsMLK7DPqQcpKU+M0iYX+BPd65uAj6SwANnx392Bhq6Kpdfj7IKVxI5/JJLZPB4GUZph8jgsb50rlNJkws= ; Message-ID: <20060813152556.6366.qmail web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:25:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <_WNBPD.A.5KB.GS03EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ho-Ho-Eco Status: O X-Status: To go 500 miles in a hybrid (Prius-type vehicle)... It would take about 11-12 gallons of gasoline ... or else ... 90 liters equivlqent of HTP - 90% pure HO-OH - which can be used to produce 5 kg of hydrogen, which has the same effective energy content in an ICE (after the gain in Carnot is accounted for) as 40-liters (11 gallon) of gasoline. The cost of the gasoline can be figured at least $35.00 and up in the near future. How much would the equvalent HO-OH cost? If one manufactures 35% HO-OH on a small scale (garage), which is safe (probably, whereas HTP is not safe) then the amount needed for the 500 miles jumps all the way to 250 liters, imposing a weight penalty, but one which is in the same range as if batteries were to be used to go the same distance. Assuming that the consummer (and Detroit) would start to make the necessary changes in infrastructure (corrosion proofing the valves etc.), and the super-size-it fuel tanks! ... and if the 250 liter reactor can be engineered so that the fuel-substitue is produced in a home garage overnight for $25 (saving of $10 per fill-up) using grid power nighttime rate of 10 cents/kWh ...and... ,,,,furhtermore that tax incentives would pay for the overhead of the needed equipment (about the size and cost of a large hot water heater), then we can see that we have a "goal" of 10 cents, or one added kilowatt-hour, per liter for the 35% HO-OH which is to be produced. Can that be done? Needless to say, the present retail price is much higher. However the raw materials - air and water are essentially free. We would be using nature's own method of manufacture which is ozone + water vapor = HO-OH. Bottom line: Easy as pie. It takes an atom of ozone to convert a molecule of water into HO-OH. There are pumping costs involved. A mole weighs 34 grams. Density in Natural State: 1.46 kg/L about 33 moles. Even iff you added 1000 volts per atom of arc discharge (artificial lightning) to get your ozone (or a Sharper image ionizer), you are only going to use about penny's worth of power, not that dime, to get your liter of HO-OH... At least in Jules Verne's dreams.... ...ain't that right, Vern. So... using what is at least a naive ball-park and hypothetical approach - this overall system seems doable. Now, we are back as always to the real starting point - the Mizzou slogan "show me"... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 08:28:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DFSBnq006118; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:28:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DFS8AV006071; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:28:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:28:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:27:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > I can sympathize with your sense of outrage. However, are you willing to > acknowledge the sense of outrage that also exists on the other side as > well? I acknowledge that it exists. I just happen to think that we are right, and they are wrong, and that that is that. (a lot of thats, a most versatile word!) > It's possible it may not have been your intention but from my perspective > you seem to be involved in religion bashing. To that I would say, bashing > any religion, be it Muslin, Judaism, Christianity, or whatever misses a > crucial point. It only fans the flames. Did you even read what I wrote? I am not religion bashing. There are plenty of other members here on Vortex that do that job quite well. I am condemning, however, a certain group of radicals who see fit to destroy anything which does not fit with their views of Islam. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of the Muslim world either supports this to some degree or another, despite what may be said for the benefit of the TV cameras, or they do nothing to combat this evil in their midst. Aiding criminals will get you thrown in jail very quickly, so I would say that aiding "terrorists" (the word isn't strong enough), when the stakes are so very much higher, should probably get you killed. As far as "bashing", I do not care if Muslims want to peacefully coexist. If they do, I have no problem with them. If however, as a very many do (despite, again, the news-bites) they support in any degree what the radicals are doing, then I am not interested in bashing them, merely seeing them destroyed utterly. That goes for any religion. > The kinds of spectacular carnage most rational human beings abhor, such as > flying commercial airlines into buildings, or walking into a public place > and blowing >themselves up, are performed for the most part by fascists > and extremists. They are not religious acts, even though I'm sure the > perpetrators have convinced >themselves that their actions are motivated > by religious faith. This is pretty much true by definition. But, if a Jew or Christian were to do these things in the name of God, can you tell me in all honesty that there would not be those very vocal members here (you know who you are) who would not be quick to point out the religious connection? Its already been done, pointing out the crusades, etc. Its just not apparently politically correct when Muslims are the targeted by this sort of talk. >Such acts of carnage are performed as the result of having nurtured a >unique blend hatred to the extreme, one that has been carefully cultivated >and then given an >outlet, all to suit the goals of a small collection very >shrewd extremists whose own goals are to assure that their own kind, their >particular way of life, is vaulted to >the top of the pecking order. ...A radical Islamic way of life? Oh, sorry, religion bashing again I suppose... the truth doesn't set us free any more I gather. (do note qualifier: radical) >In order to legitimize their special brew of hatred these fascists and >extremist have hijacked the local religion. Any religion will do. It's just >that typically it's the one >they grew up in that that gets hijacked in >order to legitimize the ne! > ed to act on their predilections. I agree. But this is neither here nor there. It does not matter that Jews or Christians or Zoroastrians *could* do these things. The cold, hard facts are that they are *not* doing these things, but radical Muslims are. Whether that seems insulting, I do not care one bit. All I am interested in is the cold practicality of the situation. If I could steal, does that make me just as bad as the many who actually does steal? This sort of moral ambiguity and "we're all just alike" mentality is a disease. We are NOT all alike. And no one should feel sorry in any way for the poor people who felt all they could do is attack our nation, and that we need to try to understand them. We do not need to understand the people that did these terrible things. We need to find them and destroy them. > The point I'm trying to make is to bash any particular religion is a > fruitless endeavor that reduces one to endless finger pointing. It is > likely to be a more productive >endeavor (and, unfortunately, a far more > difficult task) to get to the root of what makes individuals transform > their mind, body, and soul into the mindset of an >extremist who sees > personal glory in transforming themselves into a cruise missile. In the > collective sense I think it would wiser of us if we were to try to find > ways >to help promote more productive outlets in which such predilections > can express themselves. If you feel it will be productive to get in touch with these people any try to understand them, please feel free to do so, I would not restrict your actions in this regard, that would be wrong of me. However, while you are doing this, I will support those who feel the solution is to use force (see postscript) to solve the problem more elegantly and completely. Sorry, but I am completely uninterested in why they transformed their minds to be this way: they are, and that is it. There is no going back. If you want to transform minds, then perhaps consider Americanizing them. Maybe that sounds imperialist/colonialist/insert-anti-American-term-of-the-day-here. I do not care. I do not want to understand the enemy. I want to destroy him. Maybe many do not agree with these statements, but I don't mince words, I will give you what I think honestly and from the heart. > I realize my suggestion is likely to sound a tad esoteric or possibly even > naïve by some. Nevertheless, a population that is better educated, a > population that >understands the issues as they exist on BOTH SIDES of the > border is more likely to begrudgingly acknowledge the fact that both sides > will need to perform an >equal amount of sacrificing. One could argue that this understanding is very simple: us or them. There is a book written by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski titled "The Killing Star". The book is not about terrorism but there are some points that are applicable to the world situation at this point. The book is basically about an advanced interstellar civilization that sees fit to preemptively destroy human civilization. I don't personally think that we need to worry about other civilizations doing this, unless we really ask for it, but we should probably be very very careful so as not to earn their wrath. Getting back to the topic, Pellegrino and Zebrowski make three points which I think the reader will see can apply just as well in the Superpower-vs.-Terrorist ordeal as in a Supercivilization-vs.-primitive planetbound civilization scenario: 1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL: If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing. 2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS: No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent,. alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary. 3. THEY WILL ASSUME THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US. Make from that what you will. (Where are Patton and MacArthur when we need them?) >If both sides can acknowledge to each other, and especially to themselves, >that an equal amount of personal sacrifice IS transpiring on >both sides of >the border, >that is more likely to foster a lasting peace. Better >education is also more likely to keep the extremist elements and their >particular need >to act on their >predilections better in check. How do you plan to educate them better if they don't want it? Postscript referenced above: Maybe we aren't using enough raw force "over there." I think it is arguable that the amount of cost of the Iraqi war in ratio to the amount of wholesale destruction of radical Islamic groups is not justified. Don't think this means I am anti-war: I as stating that I don't think most people today have the necessary intestinal fortitude for the kind of ruthless war that would be most effective. Unfortunately, until we get off of the oil addiction, we are always going to be in a sling with regards to what happens "over there." Once that problem is solved, and I hope it will be soon, the rules of engagement can change dramatically. --Kyle (I feel like Walter Matthau's character from Fail-Safe) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 11:24:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DINmiC017634; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:23:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DINg8X017571; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:23:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:23:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Rv2m5APS7/hGNKVynWhUiGJvGTwdEP6CSH5lOZxCcVZ1mJ8Wvj7cWJFgeIpQQ1Nw; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <32865106.1155493401546.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:23:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ce580003cb0855d4f20b663bacd3cc8d157ed016dca5a8be0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Electric cars fell out of favor when gasoline models began to routinely achieve speeds of 30 to 40 mph on ordinary roads. Electric cars could not keep up. Range was limited but that was not a problem back in 1910 because people seldom drove far. For a trip over 20 miles they would take the train. Even gasoline cars were limited because there were few paved roads and no gas stations outside of large towns and cities. The first person to drive across the U.S. was Horatio Nelson Jackson in 1903. It took him 65 days and he had to essentially rebuild the whole car several times along the way, and wire ahead to small towns and have them stockpile cans of gasoline. Here is an interesting automobile timeline: http://www.pbs.org/horatio/car/autochrono.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 12:28:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DJS74q012759; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:28:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DJS6wv012739; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:28:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:28:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3rIMcLSqmqNqIJN7R1Yz88WeEaVt4J/wiM718+6bf6YwzNQ1x73CfuFxKvY2jV/5GBojnN9NOx8Y3Wd2wwKkJH1l1GxcvzIbHvGtOkDExWfOTMOUip/nWxPtketY3TyBIWgS9GA++4Uwy6uDKq1ewnVaP8u3TmkYDCxJHjg+4ec= ; Message-ID: <20060813192805.35954.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060813152556.6366.qmail web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ho-Ho-Eco Status: O X-Status: WHOA... A Drowsy Vo opined: > ... you are only going to use about penny's worth of power, not that dime, to get your liter of HO-OH... This is totally wrong. Sorry. Assumtions not valid. Back to the drawing board.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 12:35:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DJZfkf016293; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:35:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DJZduT016270; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:35:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:35:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:35:36 -0400 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5d3a985d3ddb.5d3ddb5d3a98 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4UWpq7V9hnWUZdeWHvTzwA)" Content-language: en X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4UWpq7V9hnWUZdeWHvTzwA) Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-disposition: inline Received: from [209.217.93.27] by saruman.ncf.ca (mshttpd); Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:28:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:28:03 -0400 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles To: Jed Rothwell Message-id: <5d095a5cda71.5cda715d095a ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal

Also gasoline was more expensive in 1910 than it is today.

Adjusting for inflation gasoline was $2.00/litre , compared

to $1.00 /litre in Canada today.

Harry

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com>

Date: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:23 pm

Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles

> Electric cars fell out of favor when gasoline models began to
> routinely achieve speeds of 30 to 40 mph on ordinary roads.
> Electric cars could not keep up. Range was limited but that was
> not a problem back in 1910 because people seldom drove far. For a
> trip over 20 miles they would take the train. Even gasoline cars
> were limited because there were few paved roads and no gas
> stations outside of large towns and cities.
>
> The first person to drive across the U.S. was Horatio Nelson
> Jackson in 1903. It took him 65 days and he had to essentially
> rebuild the whole car several times along the way, and wire ahead
> to small towns and have them stockpile cans of gasoline.
>
> Here is an interesting automobile timeline:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/horatio/car/autochrono.html
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
> --Boundary_(ID_4UWpq7V9hnWUZdeWHvTzwA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 17:49:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C0nQQW004734; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:49:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C0nOOX004704; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:49:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:49:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=ZHO/rd24N+DsbJFITohLK8WYsBG56c9nnglLB4bAISNCGsBuC+Y/rdqkw4NCaYaxeNc1QG+DudY9C8MftLh8ZsGs1n0Ip2dD45jsK5CaFH9ivMjb5YFu8h5nl1hBYSBtIMnW01L0UQHHrx9sIeONXtas9zdArWuhszXVAg3SK7c= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060811202455.01e4e440 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:45:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: "The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting to what is actually happening..." I believe statements such as that are distracting. At its simplest, if one person is an aggressor and starts a fight, Nature has decreed that the intended victim fights back, and if possible, kills the aggressor. There's a whole body of Eastern thinking - call it philosophy if you wish - that deals with just that type of situation. Many wise men - far wiser than you or I - have understood this and written about it realistically. These wise men seemed to have no problem defining "bad guys" and "good guys." In fact, the Bhagavad Gita takes place on the battlefield, where good guys fought bad guys... because they simply had no alternative. The bottom line is that the bad guy is the guy who is about to harm or even kill either yourself or those you love dearly, no matter what his excuse. To deny this is simply hypocrisy, because you know what you would do or try to do if pushed. "...we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it is very profitable for them...." This makes the assumption that we're all too dumb to see through this. No doubt there is profit to be made from weapons, but it doesn't take "our fear and paranoia" to see what's happening around the globe. It's simply a matter of opening our eyes then acting appropriately. Is everything we read true? Of course not, but if even a fraction of the deluge of nasty information to which we are subjected is true, then we ought to take notice and support our own defence. Democracy? In Iraq? A red herring? Absolutely! You can't change people; they have to want to change, and want to change badly. And sometimes even that doesn't work. Having said that, is there Another Way? Well, I'm afraid that most people (who really don't want to change or even rethink their own paradigms) ultimately learn only by pain in some form or other. And when, in some quarters, attempts to change people through kindness is regarded as weakness, there aren't too many other options. It's a binary world, whether you like it or not... You could call it a quantum world if you like... P. At 12:24 PM 8/11/2006 -0600, you wrote: >The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting to >what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over others. War >no longer makes a distinction between those who are fighting and those who >are not. Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still >fashionable to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a >tragic mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more >efficient and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more >universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition period >which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to avoid war and >the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, yet we go on >supporting people who insist that war is necessary because it is very >profitable for them. They are able to continue their policy because they >know how to manipulate our fear and paranoia. But you say, real threats >exist against which we must be defended. Of course this is true, but this >is a never ending path that can not be fixed just by making every country >a democracy, as Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive >approach is being demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our >creativity to explore another way. Think about that rather than the Segway. > >Ed > > > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>>One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >>>rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >>>directions while firing. >>> >>>Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled on it. >> >>Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? >>- Jed >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 17:55:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7C0stuL007365; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:54:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7C0srch007341; Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:54:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:54:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=Kp4UG9Va6KjnR265UpbddPJX4TiobUBZmc9NAk32rX7g7rSohulOd1Zj4tLx761gwa7G44W0uatJwJQm1KmZIocnvZer/rZjxFPUJNjM1Z3ndj6ml037IdXQw9VDmKrXGpBt/euKVPh1QJaTCyhkdX1HiVx5fK6IM37bxVQ8R0M= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:50:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: "Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and donations, and it has harvested brain power from all over the world." Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so that mere mortals like myself can understand it? P. At 02:56 PM 8/11/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>>We need to use our creativity to explore another way. >> >>That's easy: >>1) Make energy free. > >Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy would >mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than they presently >are. Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and donations, >and it has harvested brain power from all over the world. The countries >have long since exhausted the environment of useful minerals, the climate >is too dry for extensive agriculture, and most of the soil is poor thanks >to centuries of poor management. A country needs to produce something the >rest of the world wants. Of course, if we did not need oil, we would >ignore the internal conflicts there just like we do when they occur in >countries of Africa where oil is not present. Thanks to the tools of >terrorism, people who are sufficiently unhappy can no longer be ignored. > >>2) Eliminate religion. > >Religion is the only concept that justifies being as good as we are. Very >few people are "good" just because it is their nature. Granted, religion >is taken to extreme, but all ideas are taken to extreme sooner or >later. If religion and the rules it imposes are not applied, what do you >suggest be used in its place? >>It's only the path which is in question. > >That is true. How do we get people to follow the best path? > >Ed >>Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 05:37:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CCbYMH025847; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 05:37:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CCbWmv025824; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 05:37:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 05:37:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=U6cMHUBzvD/OtUR0V4mifcBFjJFt0K916649aGoRXU1OoSXfzEjV6RsoU0ZFE2W65k3K6AerbAJPmV45t/FO/tLpfVWVnRU8+Bvx8HDjPMkO62A4DDsPrUSBavTL0ZyDSM4Tff44FMAHP+GXy9G+K2B2fg5LIFM79Y+bV+MxO0Y= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060812082732.01e53710 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:33:02 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <5bf3235bed16.5bed165bf323 ncf.ca> References: <5bf3235bed16.5bed165bf323 ncf.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6795531==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_6795531==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks Harry. Short, meaningful answers such as yours are greatly appreciated... To some extent my question was rhetorical. In fact, by his words, I know where Storms is coming from. If you want a more visceral explanation of what I'm getting at, I suggest reading Orwell's essay, "Benefit of Clergy". In it, he addresses a problem - a state-of-mind - that's all too common these days. P. At 10:56 PM 8/11/2006 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Philip Winestone > >Date: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 pm > >Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > > "Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and > > donations, and > > it has harvested brain power from all over the world." > > > > Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so > > that mere > > mortals like myself can understand it? > > > > P. > >I understand it... > >..but I don't know if it is correct. > >Harry --=====================_6795531==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Harry.  Short, meaningful answers such as yours are greatly appreciated...

To some extent my question was rhetorical.  In fact, by his words, I know where Storms is coming from.  If you want a more visceral explanation of what I'm getting at, I suggest reading Orwell's essay, "Benefit of Clergy".  In it, he addresses a problem - a state-of-mind - that's all too common these days.

P.


At 10:56 PM 8/11/2006 -0400, you wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From: Philip Winestone <philip.winestone rogers.com>

Date: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:50 pm

Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

> "Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and
> donations, and
> it has harvested brain power from all over the world."
>
> Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so
> that mere
> mortals like myself can understand it?
>
> P.

I understand it...

..but I don't know if it is correct.

Harry

--=====================_6795531==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 12:34:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7CJY76j028582; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:34:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7CJY51a028542; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:34:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:34:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=pN56kNW+SMxQwwiVA3S35HAGoQD25Virt86wYCq2oZb9fNcCiz/xdCRg0Faiynz1w5ZwtiRl5s3CQiTpzYOA7cHiq6uB/+yoWwc/56SijxiArJNpZmwm5wqqRn1nI4N7VVMLATMo1zXdejSFDzEhIK+m8m6dUUBHE2AnnMfLjgg= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060812150801.01e53ab8 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:29:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44DE1CD1.2070407 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DCEEFC.8070205 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060811204652.01e55fd8 pop> <44DE1CD1.2070407 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: It certainly is YOUR history of Israel... Quite a fairy-tale. And as for: "Unfortunately, this required stealing land and homes from the people who lived in Palestine where Israel was to be located." Ah - these Jews; always stealing things from people... Tut, tut. Perhaps you should read a history book and amass a few uncomfortable facts. Or perhaps you should just stick to physics where some verification is required as opposed to either unfounded personal opinion or downright lies. I guess you simply can't let verifiable facts get in the way of your own personal viewpoints - can you? And as I said before, the bad guys aren't considered bad until they come to take a (figurative) bite of one's own rear-end. At that point we create the fastest known transmutation in the universe; instant good to instant bad. You see I personally don't care WHY people may want to do nasty things to me. Pontification is - pehaps obviously - not my favorite preoccupation. All I know is what I see with my own eyes; what is ultimately verifiable. A good example is the hand-wringing that followed the 9/11 murders. Many self-professed "intellectuals" desperately wanted to find out why "they" did it. Some even invented excuses; what to them were sensible reasons. The fact is that 19 murderers killed 3000 people - not Americans - just ordinary people. I couldn't care less then, and I couldn't care less now WHY they did it. I just know they did it. And any action taken as a result has to simply keep that fact in mind. The rest is just fantasy. My suggestion - take it or leave it - is for you to divest yourself, for just a few minutes, of your mantle of fame and greatness and take a good honest look at what's left. Could be very revealing. P. At 12:24 PM 8/12/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > >>"Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US and donations, and >>it has harvested brain power from all over the world." >>Now that's what I call a rich statement. Can you explain it so that mere >>mortals like myself can understand it? > >Well, hopefully without boring or pissing off too many people, here is my >very brief history of Israel. > >It starts with WWI, after which Germany was improvised by the treaty of >Versailles. Hitler took advantage of the desperate situation by promising >to restore the grandeur of the state and make life better. However, he >needed money to do this. The Jews had money and they were generally >resented by the Germans. So he stole the money by making the Jews appear >to be the cause of Germany's problems. People will believe anything when >they are desperate or afraid. However, he could not simply make the Jews >improvised without having to feed them and put up with a lot of trouble, >so he decided to kill them - thus started the death camps. After the war, >people in general and the surviving Jews in particular were outraged and >embarrassed that such a great crime was allowed to happen. So the state >of Israel was created. Unfortunately, this required stealing land and >homes from the people who lived in Palestine where Israel was to be >located. From the Jew's point of view, this was ok because God had given >this land to them centuries ago and it was subsequently stolen from >them. So, some Palestinians were placed in camps and others were pushed >into land outside of Israel. As anyone with half a mind would predict, the >displaced people were unhappy and began to cause trouble. After several >wars with the unhappy neighbors and displaced people, the boundaries of >Israel were extended to where they are today. Meanwhile, the displaced >people have grown more resentful about their treatment and more powerful >in creating problems for Israel. Terrorism is being used to counter the >overwhelming military might of Israel and the US, with the US paying an >increasing price for being associated with Israel. Meanwhile, Israel has >had to devote a large fraction of its gross national product to military >defense including an expensive nuclear weapons program. Israel is a small >country that has neither oil, gold, nor diamonds to sell. It does not >make cars sold all over the world nor does it make large numbers of >high-end electronic products like Japan and Korea. How does this small >country pay for the huge overhead this military defense requires? The >answer is, it gets the money from the US as our largest receiver of >foreign aid and it gets donations from rich individuals who want Israel to >survive. Meanwhile the cost keeps going up for everyone. No one seems able >to find a solution because the Israelis are good guys and the other guys >are terrorists and, therefore, bad. Israel bombs an innocent country >killing many noncombatants. The response is rockets having the same >effect, but on a smaller scale. People in that part of the world now hate >the US and are starting to give us a taste of what has become modern >combat. All of this was caused by the way Israel was created and it will >continue because desperation, paranoia, resentment, and fear on both sides >have now become institutionalized. Unfortunately, the other side in the >conflict now knows that the US is weak because we are overextended in >Iraq, because we are addicted to oil, which is easy for people to deny us, >and because we have created a financial nightmare within our own >country. Consider this, the housing market is in collapse because of >higher interest rates, which are required because we need to borrow so >much money from other countries; as the price of gas goes up the US car >companies are being pushed closer to bankruptcy; and US airlines are >already on the ropes and will probably be pushed over the edge by this >latest terrorist threat even though no one died. In other words, thanks >to our past policies, the bad guys have a good chance of bring down the >house of cards. Of course, in other parts of the world, these guys are >not considered bad, especially if they win. So, the question is, what can >we do about the situation? This just might be a question worth >considering before it is too late. > >Ed > > >>P. >> >> >>At 02:56 PM 8/11/2006 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>> >>>>On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: >>>> >>>>>We need to use our creativity to explore another way. >>>> >>>> >>>>That's easy: >>>>1) Make energy free. >>> >>> >>>Unfortunately, free energy would not solve the problem. Free energy >>>would mean the Middle Eastern countries would be even poorer than they >>>presently are. Israel is only rich because it is supported by the US >>>and donations, and it has harvested brain power from all over the world. >>>The countries have long since exhausted the environment of useful >>>minerals, the climate is too dry for extensive agriculture, and most of >>>the soil is poor thanks to centuries of poor management. A country needs >>>to produce something the rest of the world wants. Of course, if we did >>>not need oil, we would ignore the internal conflicts there just like we >>>do when they occur in countries of Africa where oil is not present. >>>Thanks to the tools of terrorism, people who are sufficiently unhappy >>>can no longer be ignored. >>> >>>>2) Eliminate religion. >>> >>> >>>Religion is the only concept that justifies being as good as we are. >>>Very few people are "good" just because it is their nature. Granted, >>>religion is taken to extreme, but all ideas are taken to extreme sooner >>>or later. If religion and the rules it imposes are not applied, what do >>>you suggest be used in its place? >>> >>>>It's only the path which is in question. >>> >>> >>>That is true. How do we get people to follow the best path? >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>>Terry >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 14:19:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DLCrD5020777; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:12:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DLCoh3020727; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:12:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,119,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="729710849:sNHT32227188" Message-ID: <490183970.1155503556105.JavaMail.root fepweb11> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:12:36 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products aka: Why We Fight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle, You can accuse me of not reading your previous post as thoroughly as you wish I had done. Perhaps there is some truth to that. So, you are a practical no-nonsense type of guy. I'm drawn to the following no-nonsense comments: > If you feel it will be productive to get in touch with > these people any try to understand them, please feel > free to do so, I would not restrict your actions in > this regard, that would be wrong of me. However, > while you are doing this, I will support those who > feel the solution is to use force (see postscript) to > solve the problem more elegantly and completely. > Sorry, but I am completely uninterested in why they > transformed their minds to be this way: they are, > and that is it. There is no going back. "...solve the problem more elegantly and completely" The ultimate solution? Hasn't that been tried before? > If you want > to transform minds, then perhaps consider > Americanizing them. Maybe that sounds > imperialist/colonialist/insert-anti-American- > term-of-the-day-here. I do not care. I doubt such efforts will create many converts. > I do not want > to understand the enemy. I want to destroy him. > Maybe many do not agree with these statements, but > I don't mince words, I will give you what I > think honestly and from the heart. There is a perverse kind of honor in stabbing someone in the front, as compared to the back. I gather you don't want to understand the enemy. You want to destroy them. Well, I would agree with you on one point, that such an attitude is, in your own words "...very simple: us or them." When any group, society, or nation manages to distill complicated issues, such as who rightfully owns a disputed patch of land, there's no stopping the kind of carnage that will unfold, especially when both sides can prop up their sense of outrage with some religious justification. You mentioned previously that you happen to believe that "...we are right, and they are wrong, and that that is that." How brave is it to proclaim one's righteousness when it would appear that it's our side that is holding most of the ammo? He who is "right" is simply the individual who has more guns and ammo. If that's the case we had better wipe out every single "enemy" from the face of the planet, and while we're at it we'd better not concern ourselves with all the collateral damage, all the innocent men, women, and children caught in harms way. Cuz, if we fail to wipe out all the "enemy" (along with a few here and there we're not too sure about) from the face of the planet we'll just end up pissing them off even more. > How do you plan to educate them better if > they don't want it? One can't educate those who don't want it. One hopes to better educate the majority - the rest of the population who are willing to better themselves, those who would prefer to live in more peaceful circumstances where they can go to work and raise their children. Hopefully, it will be the better educated majority who will be able to ameliorate the rest who don't wish to be educated. Regarding your postscript, I would agree that the rules are likely to change when we can finally kick ourselves off our current addiction to oil. Let's hope that is sooner rather than later. And, yes, I also agree that Walter Mathau. was a brilliant and very pragmatic character in Fail-Safe. A no-nonsense kind of guy. I can appreciate where you're coming from. It's obvious I don't personally agree with much of your sentiments. But I do understand it. Nice sparring with you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 16:00:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DN0dI7028052; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:00:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DN0dJ5028035; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:00:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:00:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=E0ZcbU5oCYFh0WZry/N8yYxfiUvviOphnieVyh5R4Qtq4Jf/B2Tl/JOBNGha4nOjWx8X2lgbp3S5rS//fjVg//DYipe8SSq5I3389o4aToiZrb+MG2KMnSzuhVLwfywjBuVG4jInnZMNCZVEQc8iQ8Gz0mukJBiV6bJDZtdklNg= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:00:38 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <5gc3kB.A.71G.W863EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT] Idiocy Status: O X-Status: Guys, I started a simple thread about a new technology and everyone wants to spout their philosophies on the war. Please use this thread topic and not the one about Dean Kamen's fine inventions. Thank you, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 16:38:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DNcCV8008390; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:38:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DNcAaB008368; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:38:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:38:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c6bf31$83795ef0$8d91163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <490183970.1155503556105.JavaMail.root fepweb11> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products aka: Why We Fight Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:37:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <6RDPiC.A.sCC.hf73EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products aka: Why We Fight > "...solve the problem more elegantly and completely" The ultimate > solution? Hasn't that been tried before? > Practical answer to this: The Jews didn't do anything to deserve the absolute evil that was committed against them. You have no idea how horrifying I consider the Final Solution to have been. It was perhaps the most abominable evil of recorded history. The problem is, it never really stopped. There are still multitudes who hate Jews and who want to see them destroyed and all killed. These are the people who have managed to take command of "peaceful" nations like Lebanon and Syria! (Add in Iran as well for their actions). So, now, if I were to say I wanted to exterminate all the Nazis to protect an innocent people who they (the Nazis) were trying to destroy utterly, would that seem "evil"? Oh, but maybe we should try to understand why the Nazis hate Jews....maybe we can all talk about it. They tried that and Europe nearly fell entirely under the veil of Hitler's Third Reich. The talking and touchy-feely business nearly made the Axis invincible. What solved the problem, and ultimately saved lives? Wholesale destruction of the enemy on an almost unheard-of scale. You do not reason with a ruthless enemy, you do not try to talk to them, you destroy them. You make damn sure you are more ruthless and aggressive than they are and you wipe them out utterly. > > I doubt such efforts will create many converts. > So what? > There is a perverse kind of honor in stabbing someone in the front, as > compared to the back. Hmmm... > I gather you don't want to understand the enemy. You want to destroy them. > Well, I would agree with you on one point, that such an attitude is, in > your own >words "...very simple: us or them." When any group, society, or > nation manages to distill complicated issues, such as who rightfully owns > a disputed patch of land, >there's no stopping the kind of carnage that > will unfold, especially when both sides can prop up their sense of outrage > with some religious justification. By that logic, we can never solve a problem because it is always going to end up too complicated to solve. This kind of logic applied to the real world will get you no where. There is always an answer, let us just hope the right answer is the one applied. Religious justification? I haven't used that, I used mere practicality. > You mentioned previously that you happen to believe that "...we are right, > and they are wrong, and that that is that." How brave is it to proclaim > one's >righteousness when it would appear that it's our side that is > holding most of the ammo? We may hold most of the ammunition, but they are clearly able to use what limited things they have very well, because we are apparently afraid to use ours to the fullest extent. If someone is running up to you intent to stab you with a sharpened stick, and you are pointing a machine gun at them, who is more heavily armed? But what if the gun-holder does not fire either out of fear or thinking that he should try to reason with the stick-holder? The gun-holder may very well either be gravely injured or killed. Who's right and who's wrong? In the real world there is always a cold, hard answer, somewhere. >He who is "right" is simply the individual who has more guns and ammo. Wrong. See my above comments, re: Nazis. > If that's the case we had better wipe out every single "enemy" from the > face of the planet, and while we're at it we'd better not concern > ourselves with all the >collateral damage, all the innocent men, women, > and children caught in harms way. Cuz, if we fail to wipe out all the > "enemy" (along with a few here and there >we're not too sure about) from > the face of the planet we'll just end up pissing them off even more. If the innocent truly far outnumber the guilty, then they can kill the guilty by weight of numbers. If the guilty use weapons of mass destruction (I hate this term now, thanks to the talking heads on CNN) on the presumed innocent bystanders, all the more reason to begin gutting the whole place. As to innocents being killed, that is war. This mentality will lose wars. How about the innocent bystanders in the World Trade Center? Oh, but that was only a few thousand, so many more are killed in car crashes every day.... then why do we care about how many are killed in Lebanon by Israeli bombings? This number is far outnumbered by those killed in car wrecks.... The hypocrisy is staggering! > One can't educate those who don't want it. One hopes to better educate the > majority - the rest of the population who are willing to better > themselves, those who >would prefer to live in more peaceful circumstances > where they can go to work and raise their children. Hopefully, it will be > the better educated majority who will >be able to ameliorate the rest who > don't wish to be educated. It hasn't happened so far in Iran has it? They were supposedly becoming so much more secularized and "high minded". Remember the reports about students questioning their leadership? What happened to this "movement"? I don't see the peaceful methods working. > Regarding your postscript, I would agree that the rules are likely to > change when we can finally kick ourselves off our current addiction to > oil. Let's hope that is > sooner rather than later. Agreed. > Nice sparring with you. Agreed as well. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 19:00:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7E208Ig005767; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:00:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7E206A5005744; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:00:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=lSDeyP9m/oKfdrbJ56gQhCYABX/n80f2jDWwjIhFRD8na3w/9CxL92FdEUMbSRI9; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <7862284.1155520799761.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:59:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ca931402c2a5aec910697cd6e8640b7649efe4054c37f43aa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote (in a private e-mail, but it seems okay to quote it here): >Also, gasoline was more expensive in 1910 than it is today. Interesting point. But electricity was relatively expensive too. Not sure how much. Also, the people who owned cars before 1918 were generally wealthy and probably did not care much about operating expenses. As someone pointed out previously, electric cars were safer and easier to operate before the self-starter was invented. Speaking of which, does anyone here remember the exchange between Henry Ford and Charles Kettering, in which Ford said "I have decided not to put self-starters in my cars" and Kettering said something like "it isn't your choice. You must and you will"? I would like to track that down but I cannot find the bio of Kettering I read years ago. >Adjusting for inflation gasoline was $2.00/litre , compared >to $1.00 /litre in Canada today. That must be adjusted for inflation. Where did that info come from? It sounds about right. I happen to have an unlikely source for the cost of gasoline in Canada circa 1900: L. M. Montgomery's book "The Blue Castle," chapter 21. It was seventy cents for two gallons, or 9 cents per liter, assuming those were U.S. gallons. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 19:00:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7E203ju005727; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:00:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7E1nn0m031743; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:49:21 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting > to what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over > others. War no longer makes a distinction between those who are > fighting and those who are not. It "no longer" makes such a distinction? You mean, it _used_ to? Like in the firebombing of Hamburg, for instance? Or in the carpet bombing of any major German city during WWII? Use of bombers was ubiquitous and the accuracy of the bombs dropped from high-altitude bombers was so low that avoiding civilian areas was not practical ... and, indeed, IIRC it wasn't considered particularly important, anyway. Or to look at the other side, consider the V-2's Germany launched against England. What fraction hit civilian targets? Did the German high command express concern about "collateral damage"? If anything, it seems like we're far _more_ concerned about civilian versus military casualties than most leaders were 60 years ago, and modern technology makes it possible to, at least occasionally, try to limit the strikes to military targets. > Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still fashionable > to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a tragic > mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more efficient > and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more > universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition > period which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to > avoid war and the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, > yet we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary > because it is very profitable for them. They are able to continue > their policy because they know how to manipulate our fear and > paranoia. But you say, real threats exist against which we must be > defended. Of course this is true, but this is a never ending path > that can not be fixed just by making every country a democracy, as > Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive approach is being > demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our creativity to > explore another way. Think about that rather than the Segway. > > Ed > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>> One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >>> rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >>> directions while firing. >>> >>> Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled >>> on it. >> >> >> Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? >> >> - Jed >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 15:47:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DMlBBj023665; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:47:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DMl9jS023647; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:47:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:47:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=2+WUkGGVkoAMo3tC11v1de62ysqjUX9UI3eX1STgiA+q2YtjNKm+xjTIZfxf22Vnu6AGbg1BlU/2yI1aIB9RmSaf+YkwS5ybKVvxgffopq+WrB4pGFtwePld963YybZkhRI2gch14kXulo4TiHlOX0vs3EpCaKpk3YvFaDlx3ag= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060813183544.01e5b028 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:46:43 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products aka: Why We Fight In-Reply-To: <490183970.1155503556105.JavaMail.root fepweb11> References: <490183970.1155503556105.JavaMail.root fepweb11> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Sorry - Kyle is doing such a good job that I hate to interrupt... But I see the use of the word "outrage" once again. The word "outrage" is probably one of the most prolific words in use these days, and frankly, I'm tired of it. If you (I assume), Kyle (permit me) or myself have a bone to pick (as I did with Ed yesterday and today) I may get somewhat upset and perhaps a little testy, usually for a good, definable reason. And often with a reasoned discussion this can be put to bed, as long as the debaters are fundamentally honest about what they say and why they say it. But, speaking for myself and perhaps Kyle (permit me again) I don't get "outraged". It would have to be something horrific and viscerally meaningful for me to register "outrage". But - believe it or not - there's a group of people in this world; about 1.5 billion of them - who seem to have the ability to get outraged literally at the drop of a hat. That's an extremely short fuse. Something we see in young children mostly. And we easily buy into it. It's pure hyperbole where communication is concerned and it borders on pathological where human reaction is concerned. Could you please avoid using it in any reasoned context? P. At 02:12 PM 8/13/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Kyle, > >You can accuse me of not reading your previous post as thoroughly as you >wish I had done. Perhaps there is some truth to that. > >So, you are a practical no-nonsense type of guy. I'm drawn to the >following no-nonsense comments: > > > If you feel it will be productive to get in touch with > > these people any try to understand them, please feel > > free to do so, I would not restrict your actions in > > this regard, that would be wrong of me. However, > > while you are doing this, I will support those who > > feel the solution is to use force (see postscript) to > > solve the problem more elegantly and completely. > > Sorry, but I am completely uninterested in why they > > transformed their minds to be this way: they are, > > and that is it. There is no going back. > >"...solve the problem more elegantly and completely" The ultimate >solution? Hasn't that been tried before? > > > If you want > > to transform minds, then perhaps consider > > Americanizing them. Maybe that sounds > > imperialist/colonialist/insert-anti-American- > > term-of-the-day-here. I do not care. > >I doubt such efforts will create many converts. > > > I do not want > > to understand the enemy. I want to destroy him. > > Maybe many do not agree with these statements, but > > I don't mince words, I will give you what I > > think honestly and from the heart. > >There is a perverse kind of honor in stabbing someone in the front, as >compared to the back. > >I gather you don't want to understand the enemy. You want to destroy them. >Well, I would agree with you on one point, that such an attitude is, in >your own words "...very simple: us or them." When any group, society, or >nation manages to distill complicated issues, such as who rightfully owns >a disputed patch of land, there's no stopping the kind of carnage that >will unfold, especially when both sides can prop up their sense of outrage >with some religious justification. > >You mentioned previously that you happen to believe that "...we are right, >and they are wrong, and that that is that." How brave is it to proclaim >one's righteousness when it would appear that it's our side that is >holding most of the ammo? He who is "right" is simply the individual who >has more guns and ammo. If that's the case we had better wipe out every >single "enemy" from the face of the planet, and while we're at it we'd >better not concern ourselves with all the collateral damage, all the >innocent men, women, and children caught in harms way. Cuz, if we fail to >wipe out all the "enemy" (along with a few here and there we're not too >sure about) from the face of the planet we'll just end up pissing them off >even more. > > > > How do you plan to educate them better if > > they don't want it? > >One can't educate those who don't want it. One hopes to better educate the >majority - the rest of the population who are willing to better >themselves, those who would prefer to live in more peaceful circumstances >where they can go to work and raise their children. Hopefully, it will be >the better educated majority who will be able to ameliorate the rest who >don't wish to be educated. > >Regarding your postscript, I would agree that the rules are likely to >change when we can finally kick ourselves off our current addiction to >oil. Let's hope that is sooner rather than later. > >And, yes, I also agree that Walter Mathau. was a brilliant and very >pragmatic character in Fail-Safe. A no-nonsense kind of guy. I can >appreciate where you're coming from. It's obvious I don't personally agree >with much of your sentiments. But I do understand it. > >Nice sparring with you. > >Regards, >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com >www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 16:15:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7DNFOx3000655; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:15:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7DNFMA9000630; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:15:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:15:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=MSRptn9G6oPkaLdkjhcymwpyC/CI2a3yEZku7FrSGdFZEW6qP+OdMn8sUuqdL3Rve8nLdxaeJVVuAoTgKlovgBacYNq3biypz1CJi5ZvrcCNfzj6Jh3SJZbBdGgVx3OU3rdTxb9oUtTC5U5J+af1eJwL07ylbLLL2Yn7Kv5+Ppc= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060813191427.01e60e40 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:14:57 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4OPLlC.A.wJ.KK73EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Good point... Some things are just meant to be I guess... P. At 07:00 PM 8/13/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Guys, > >I started a simple thread about a new technology and everyone wants to >spout their philosophies on the war. > >Please use this thread topic and not the one about Dean Kamen's fine >inventions. > >Thank you, > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 19:46:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7E2kYpY028253; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7E2kXlt028242; Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:46:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:46:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:48:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, as you point out so well, the killing of anyone on the other side started with WWII. This was done because it became possible to do, not because any attitude had changed. Although bombs can be better targeted, this does not mean anyone is trying to save noncombatants. The bombs are just more efficient in taking out the intended target. The extra damage means nothing. In fact, such damage is an advantage because it weakens the enemy, which is the intent of war. You forget, war at all times in history is designed to be won by any means available. This has not changed. Because of TV, both sides have to show sorrow and apologize for colloidal damage, but this means nothing. On the other hand, police action is designed to minimize collateral damage. We have yet to see police action being used in the Middle East. That, I suggest, is the flaw in the process. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting >> to what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over >> others. War no longer makes a distinction between those who are >> fighting and those who are not. > > It "no longer" makes such a distinction? You mean, it _used_ to? > > Like in the firebombing of Hamburg, for instance? > > Or in the carpet bombing of any major German city during WWII? Use of > bombers was ubiquitous and the accuracy of the bombs dropped from > high-altitude bombers was so low that avoiding civilian areas was not > practical ... and, indeed, IIRC it wasn't considered particularly > important, anyway. > > Or to look at the other side, consider the V-2's Germany launched > against England. What fraction hit civilian targets? Did the German > high command express concern about "collateral damage"? > > If anything, it seems like we're far _more_ concerned about civilian > versus military casualties than most leaders were 60 years ago, and > modern technology makes it possible to, at least occasionally, try to > limit the strikes to military targets. > >> Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still fashionable >> to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a tragic >> mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more efficient >> and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more >> universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition >> period which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to >> avoid war and the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, >> yet we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary >> because it is very profitable for them. They are able to continue >> their policy because they know how to manipulate our fear and >> paranoia. But you say, real threats exist against which we must be >> defended. Of course this is true, but this is a never ending path >> that can not be fixed just by making every country a democracy, as >> Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive approach is being >> demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our creativity to >> explore another way. Think about that rather than the Segway. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Jed Rothwell wrote: >> >>> Terry Blanton wrote: >>> >>>> One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >>>> rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >>>> directions while firing. >>>> >>>> Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled >>>> on it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? >>> >>> - Jed >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 02:29:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7E9Tf2r021918; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7E9Tdin021879; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:29:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:29:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:29:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7E9TTU9021765 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point Ed about police action being needed, but whose police? The only solution IMHO would be a _strong_ UN with its own justice and police, in charge of deciding who are the bad guys and of catching them with minimal collateral damage. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Yes, as you point out so well, the killing of anyone on the other side > started with WWII. This was done because it became possible to do, not > because any attitude had changed. Although bombs can be better > targeted, this does not mean anyone is trying to save noncombatants. > The bombs are just more efficient in taking out the intended target. > The extra damage means nothing. In fact, such damage is an advantage > because it weakens the enemy, which is the intent of war. You forget, > war at all times in history is designed to be won by any means > available. This has not changed. Because of TV, both sides have to show > sorrow and apologize for colloidal damage, but this means nothing. On > the other hand, police action is designed to minimize collateral damage. > We have yet to see police action being used in the Middle East. That, > I suggest, is the flaw in the process. > > Ed > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> The idea of good guys and bad guys in war is useless and distracting >>> to what is actually happening. War is a means to gain power over >>> others. War no longer makes a distinction between those who are >>> fighting and those who are not. >> >> It "no longer" makes such a distinction? You mean, it _used_ to? >> >> Like in the firebombing of Hamburg, for instance? >> >> Or in the carpet bombing of any major German city during WWII? Use of >> bombers was ubiquitous and the accuracy of the bombs dropped from >> high-altitude bombers was so low that avoiding civilian areas was not >> practical ... and, indeed, IIRC it wasn't considered particularly >> important, anyway. >> >> Or to look at the other side, consider the V-2's Germany launched >> against England. What fraction hit civilian targets? Did the German >> high command express concern about "collateral damage"? >> >> If anything, it seems like we're far _more_ concerned about civilian >> versus military casualties than most leaders were 60 years ago, and >> modern technology makes it possible to, at least occasionally, try to >> limit the strikes to military targets. >> >>> Both are killed with equal intensity, although it is still fashionable >>> to claim the fig leaf of unintended collateral damage or a tragic >>> mistake. Make no mistake, as the tools of war become more efficient >>> and terrorism, which is the counter to those tools, become more >>> universal, no one will be safe. We are passing through a transition >>> period which has to end by people insisting on methods be used to >>> avoid war and the resulting terrorism. But then, every one knows this, >>> yet we go on supporting people who insist that war is necessary >>> because it is very profitable for them. They are able to continue >>> their policy because they know how to manipulate our fear and >>> paranoia. But you say, real threats exist against which we must be >>> defended. Of course this is true, but this is a never ending path >>> that can not be fixed just by making every country a democracy, as >>> Bush plans. The obvious consequence of this naive approach is being >>> demonstrated every day in Iraq. We need to use our creativity to >>> explore another way. Think about that rather than the Segway. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> Jed Rothwell wrote: >>> >>>> Terry Blanton wrote: >>>> >>>>> One comment was, imagine a Segway with a chain gun >>>>> rolling into a batch of bad guys and spinning wheels in opposite >>>>> directions while firing. >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully, the next battlefield will have only bad guy blood spilled >>>>> on it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can this gadget tell who is bad, and who is innocent? >>>> >>>> - Jed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 03:07:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EA6wrQ003557; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:06:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EA6u8B003530; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:06:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:06:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=DRaw50410IUWrMNH5Krq4sbfYXrPNkLAWRxnQiK2OteTTGV5O5MS9zFYbCfFeSAUtH5U5myADyyFlYEOgdO+B1HASHPJpdsqsxKn0vM/1jw/cyh7KuZonVg0w5vzORqmFwYuW2/4MPwdjrPa/NSP7P2LovjJ2W2Sd8eFEuxsXbE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:06:53 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35726_28118883.1155550013135" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What is HTP?? Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_35726_28118883.1155550013135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., cut from post: Please..... what is HTP?? If one manufactures 35% HO-OH on a small scale (garage), which is safe (probably, whereas HTP is not safe) then the amount needed for the 500 miles jumps all the way to 250 liters, imposing a weight penalty, but one which is in the same range as if batteries were to be used to go the same distance. Any help here? Thanks, Herma ------=_Part_35726_28118883.1155550013135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
 cut from post:
 
 
 Please.....      what is HTP??
 
 
 
 If one manufactures 35% HO-OH on a small scale
(garage), which is safe (probably, whereas HTP is not
safe) then the amount needed for the 500 miles jumps
all the way to 250 liters, imposing a weight penalty,
but one which is in the same range as if batteries
were to be used to go the same distance.
 
 
 
   Any help here?
 
      Thanks,
 
    Herma
 
------=_Part_35726_28118883.1155550013135-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 05:10:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EC9rdO025548; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:09:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EC9mkI025473; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:09:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:09:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PJ9SqANaCCH+c7ntXpVbC9YVdn5L0DALyY38kA4Q6z0QuYcFTXpd7fYdFLVXKp7dQYdy6wBhvPpHrtHVMujeC4FrSopv9YumqY7cec3uc+6NjYupaWrMfE4qBlo/+Yp4MPX0jdKP9NgwFQQ7e9RLVVUFhA5Ar17kdH5cUcjqizU= ; Message-ID: <20060814120938.65164.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:09:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP?? Status: O X-Status: High-strength peroxide (also called high-test peroxide, or HTP) the acronym is a holdover from the days of rocketry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 05:32:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ECW7IJ004491; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:32:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ECW6p3004474; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:32:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:32:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XbBQ1tw0EsjsP8dhkpOKyPCh7Ze/azJu4VlVRJo1Jo27KjlNs7krJxhWOTfWzDKy42IlGgOqQNJqCzT2Kwiekdy8w15mCn2UsVeJ9h4F2LkuH0fAaftH7FndSU1cpkJmUIfpIqaZIw5PsF058E2+xnZ+I8OTYVxcElgK84lqvRs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:32:06 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP?? In-Reply-To: <20060814120938.65164.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060814120938.65164.qmail web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What are you doing awake so early?!? On 8/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > High-strength peroxide (also called high-test > peroxide, or HTP) the acronym is a holdover from the > days of rocketry. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 06:20:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EDKIXb026426; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:20:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EDKGkC026405; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:20:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1952264740.1155561609958.JavaMail.root fepweb13> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 6:20:09 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <2htzED.A.ccG.QiH4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: High Oil Prices Temporary? Status: O X-Status: Hi Oil Prices Temporary? I doubt it. But It's a nice thought. See: http://energy.seekingalpha.com/article/15450 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 06:42:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EDgHUP004447; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:42:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EDgGXf004433; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:42:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:42:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PwuE3il/7P0KiFkIFg+u/QNGv5eohvRha7Vt/kJ3BV8lJO0FixhPIWLpEZVDi9MZNTGuRF4/B/vbW6KZUlpzEl8olSsezFbTi7wSMsKHgTLeOSITG46VUwsli/FTg+OUqRmpNoAPtSTH6Ufeyr7OTx9am1zy9TeGuU0HznTX9jI= ; Message-ID: <20060814134216.93300.qmail web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP?? Status: O X-Status: Make hay when the sun shines, but make HTP when the moon shines?? --- Terry Blanton wrote: > What are you doing awake so early?!? > > On 8/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > High-strength peroxide (also called high-test > > peroxide, or HTP) the acronym is a holdover from > the > > days of rocketry. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 07:45:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EEjZAD007452; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EEjWVY007389; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:44:45 -0400 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles To: vortex-L eskimo.com Message-id: <5e0d905e2334.5e23345e0d90 ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: <0h2v7.A.VzB.LyI4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >Adjusting for inflation gasoline was $2.00/litre , compared > >to $1.00 /litre in Canada today. > > That must be adjusted for inflation. Where did that info come > from? It sounds about right. I happen to have an unlikely source > for the cost of gasoline in Canada circa 1900: L. M. Montgomery's > book "The Blue Castle," chapter 21. It was seventy cents for two > gallons, or 9 cents per liter, assuming those were U.S. gallons. > > - Jed I heard it on a recent CBC radio show about the inventor of the gasoline pump. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 07:46:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EEjvVJ007813; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EEjuQT007781; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cgS96fiAR/FfoYOmSZtXIcShR6rAisdY/WnDYE4BfqKT0ijcoGklndWsIGjF7Mb0IXMNdqbkirgvRAlWuh0Sb/AoAka2oNpChQhGE9RRu4dwxmwOJWEiDXdJ+NIM2GxL90WKh7GYmA89Nhh+by9Cu6tXZ10OMkSJb7UkXLFEUmY= ; Message-ID: <20060814144551.63857.qmail web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20060814134216.93300.qmail web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? Status: O X-Status: Well, since this thread title is a natural, for an update of what can be acomplished by grumpy-old-men, for very little $, here it is... Over the past days, I'm pretty sure that we have advanced towards a simple way to make a "pretreated waterfuel" which has an active ingedient consisting of mostly hydrogen peroxide. This can be done using air and water. Whether or not this is what is occurring in the normal Joe-Cell to some extent, is also possible but there could be other active species in either case. Because of the high efficiency of the technique, which is difficult to explain otherwise, it is also suspected/hoped that hydrinos are being either formed, or more likely 'released' from air, which is now being pumped and recycled through the precharging liquid using a peristaltic pump. To be more precise, this technique uses the oxygen content of air, and electricity - to make ozone, which is then recycled through a salt water solution continuously, over an extended time period, to make what is apparently HO-OH + other ingredients. Full details will be released - after either a submission for the H-Prize, if it is implemented - or a Bush veto of the legislation. I hope that these preliminary results prove to be true and can even be imporved on. Further testing should determine the exact details. Hydrogen peroxide is one answer to solving the energy crisis. It is a unique chemical, ideally suited to the situation where en-vironmental considerations and low cost are paramount (as long as you make it instead of buy it). Hydrogen peroxide can act as either an oxidizing agent or a reducing agent - and seems paricularly prone to decompose rapidly but safely in an AC electric field ! -- or DC with a strong ripple (more like a dam burst if your alternator diodes are very old). The feedstock for making this electro-generated hydrogen peroxide is air and salt water (if that isn't unusually cheap and available as a feedstock, then what is!). Pure oxygen would probably be more efficient than air, but hasn't been tried yet. OK. To be fair - the manufacture of this potential fuel (now) does require grid power and that can entail some CO2 in another location - if solar,wind,nuclear is not used. But in comparison with batteries for auto power, calculations indicate that approximately half the grid power will be required (for equal mileage) when making peroxide, as opposed to charging batteries. This is difficult to determine and it could be more favorable. No claim is being made for an overunity system now, but it certainly seems remarkably efficient because of the low power level used to make the active fluid. This week I hope to have it run through a mass spec. Also I'm not sure if the normal Joe-cell technique is doing this or not to a lesser extent [that is - if orgone and peroxide are the same] but an offshoot of that pretreatment process is the way this technique was discovered. HOOH even at low enrichment is visous, slightly acidic and when shaken and has the distintive ozone odor and bubbles as much or more than poured Stout. In addition, when HOOH is used as a fuel in dilute solutions such as those produced in ongoing electrolytic pretreatement, its potential violent reactions are (hopefuly) eliminated - which is the big drawback to HTP (High Test Peroxide). The testing against 35% HOOH is what has pinpointed the active ingredient. HTP is explosive and is used as rocket fuel, but an auto ICE can be powered by hydrogen which is released from the electrolysis of dilute peroxide. In comparison to the electrolysis of water with KOH, in the very same onboard hydrobooster cell, the electrolysis of this fuel is massively more effieicnt - an order of magnitude more gas, tapering off fast as the peroxide is preferentially used up. Therein lies the challenge to make this usable. The suspected main reaction is: 3O2 + 2e- ==> 2(O3-) 2(O3-) + 2 H2O ==> 2(H2O2) + 2O2 + 2e- Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:07:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EF7Cpn022157; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:07:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EF7AvR022132; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:07:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:07:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:08:58 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7KUI-D.A.sZF.dGJ4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Good point Ed about police action being needed, but whose police? My point is mainly a matter of having a better attitude. Israel's approach is to send in the military when they are attacked. Of course this is understandable given their situation, but this approach has been counter productive. Their situation has only gotten worse. For example, two of their people were kidnaped. The response was to destroy half of the country in which the kidnappers reside. Of course, the situation is more complicated, but people seem to forget that the rocket attack started only after Israel started bombing. The attitude, which is shared by many people, is to hit back without mercy or thought when attacked by the "bad" guys. This approach always results in a counter attack. This time response will take the form of terrorist attacks, because this is the only effective response the other side has. Unfortunately for us, this method of response is becoming increasingly effective because modern infrastructure is so fragile. In addition, this method of combat produces fear and paranoia on the other side, causing the response to be increasing self defeating. No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief and people are only willing to die when they feel very strong about their belief and see no alternative. The question is, how can the rest of us respond in a way that is more effective and avoid being sucked into the black hole of attack and counter attack? Ed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:29:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EFSoRv003853; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:28:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EFSnLA003838; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:28:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:28:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=V7aTh8MJz68wlooRpUcUSlmQY6rbbMI6vrzHk7uqGTHqr96KxwXCZkn6HtyyMlFuKrzvqLieYRUtsYNaJDrJJXYkqkUo8V3kjsgLMNNoJYzd5KLmR3AXiNMob6gLOj4q/yBf+bFteIGCN2HTuT1zrLoixpIlkx1+xifXLYXY7Yg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:28:47 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goldes Patent App In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/3/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > . . . is posted on his site: > > http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/mpi-patentapplication.pdf Some piccys of Mark's research have shown up on PESwiki: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnetic_Power_Inc You gotta love that Alcoa Faraday cage. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:32:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EFVlRu005364; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:31:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EFVjEo005341; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:31:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:31:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814112147.0403e100 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:31:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: History of Electric Vehicles In-Reply-To: <7862284.1155520799761.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <7862284.1155520799761.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > >Adjusting for inflation gasoline was $2.00/litre , compared > >to $1.00 /litre in Canada today. > >That must be adjusted for inflation. Where did that info come from? >It sounds about right. This checks out. See: http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/dollar_book/appendixa.pdf Quote: ". . . one [Canadian] dollar in 1914 would have the purchasing power of $17.75 in 2005 dollars." So, adjusting for inflation, based on the Montgomery book, 1 liter cost $1.60, and 1 gallon cost $6.21. The book was published in 1929, but I believe it describes pre-WWI society. Gasoline is cheaper, but on the other hand we use much more and we are more dependent upon it, so I am sure we devote a much higher fraction of our income to it. Anyway we need energy that costs thousands or millions of times less. Progress has stalled and people are beginning to think that history is at an end. The history of Greece, Rome and the Deep South in the U.S. shows how that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Turn your back on progress and you will regress, since society never stands still. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:40:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EFe34a012539; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:40:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EFc3v4010824; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814104917.040bcf20 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:14:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The non-future of economics and manufacturing Status: O X-Status: Earlier, I wrote in response to Ed Storms: >A country needs to produce something the rest of the world wants. I do not think that will be as true in the future. I think people will be more autonomous, particularly in the far distant future when manufacturing is done entirely with robots and local resources are intensely recycled using high-energy techniques. . . . All notions of wealth and poverty, and probably the entire notion of economic systems will become meaningless in the distant future. This may seem utopian or far-fetched, but as I said, it has been the trend for the last 200 years, and I see no reason why it will stop. Nothing will promote this trend more than cold fusion. Needless to say, the idea is not original to me. The best expression of it is in chapter 13 of Clarke's "Profiles of the Future," which ends with this paragraph: "So we may hope, therefore, that one day our age of roaring factories and bulging warehouses will pass away, as the spinning wheel and the home loom and the butter churn passed before them. And then our descendants, no longer cluttered up with possessions, will remember what many of us have forgotten -- that the only things in the world that really matter are such imponderables as beauty and wisdom, laughter and love." People who have not read Clarke's book should stop what you are doing and read it. You do not understand the future and the potential of cold fusion unless you have read this book, plus lots and lots of history, since we can only see into the future by looking into the past. You can order the revised Millennium edition from the U.K. which is up to date and covers cold fusion. As mentioned in the Forward, Clarke wrote it with help from . . . me. A few gems have been removed from it, alas. I should copy that above quote into the last chapter of my book, which I may expand a little for the Japanese edition. In a non-intrusive way, I have to explain a little more about what a "woodchuck" and a croquet wicket is, and give a better feel for what it means when I say I think children should hide from their parents and play poker instead of Little League Baseball. That is the challenge of translating: make it feel the same by reading differently. In this benighted era, I suppose there are good many Americans who would not know a woodchuck if they saw one, and who profess shame -- shame! -- at the notion that kids should learn how to gamble and deal with money, winning and losing. In the Victorian era we expected children to be innocent of sex; now we want them to be innocent of everything else, and unable to cut a watermelon with a kitchen knife, for crying out loud. I saw a 12-year old girl in that predicament a few years ago. When, if ever, do parents expect their children to grow up and learn to deal with knives, money, or anything else? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 09:17:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EGGnsD001562; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:16:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EGGiPF001511; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:16:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:16:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:16:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . . True for non-conventional wars. Many Japanese people were willing to die for their country in 1945 but the U.S. won with conventional weapons and techniques. (I think the war would have been over soon even without the atomic bomb.) >and people are only willing to die when they feel very strong about >their belief and see no alternative. The question is, how can the >rest of us respond in a way that is more effective and avoid being >sucked into the black hole of attack and counter attack? I think the only way to win is to hit them in the pocketbook. We have to take away their source of funding, which is oil money from Saudi Arabia and Iran. If cold fusion makes oil worthless, the terror will dry up in a few years. Heck, plug-in hybrid automobiles could do it. Despite all the talk about "unconventional" and "asymmetric" war, it still costs a great deal to run an organization like al-Qaeda, and the fundamental cause of the war is social disruption triggered by oceans of cash flowing through and corrupting these societies. If al-Qaeda did not have hundreds of millions of dollars to throw into these crazy schools and training camps in places like Pakistan, they would soon lose their appeal and people would stop sending their children to be indoctrinated. Muslim families do not do that in India, the Philippines or anyplace else they can have a life and get an actual education. The Saudi government sponsors school for diplomat's kids in Maryland, that was described in the Washington Post a few years ago. It sounded to me like a recruiting office for jihad and an effort to turn back the clock 800 years. That kind of thing can never win and never last, but as long as they can pay for it, it will cause disruption, heartache and ruined lives. To the extent they do succeed they hurt themselves most, and they fast-forward to the day when they will revert to a camel-based economy facing starvation. Of course the Saudi people do not have to do this to themselves, anymore than the flower of Japanese youth "had" to fly kamikaze airplanes in 1945. The Japanese stopped their blood-mad insanity 61 years ago tomorrow. The Saudis might come to their senses, turn around beginning today, and embrace modernity, science, rationality and progress. They might take the lead in cold fusion research and become the super-power of the 21st century. Never forget that Moslem society took the place of the Greeks as the leaders in science and enlightenment, and triggered the European Renaissance. Nothing inherent to Muslim culture prevents this from happening again. They are enslaved by history, hate and oil money, not religion. (Not that religion does any good as far as I can tell. The least religious modern nations, in Western Europe and Japan, are the most law abiding, peaceful, wealthy, best educated, with the lowest infant mortality and so on. I think it would be best if scientific and technological progress extinguished religion altogether, but perhaps that is too much to hope for. Anyway religion does little harm as long as you keep it out of public schools, science classes, the laboratory and the government.) There have been fanatical movements in the past devoted to death cults and self-annihilation. They did not last long because the self-annihilated. I think the technique is to kill and capture them, drain the funding, and wait for the fever to pass. The British approach last week, of treating this as a problem for the anti-terror police squad, seems right to me. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/weekinreview/13sanger.html?ref=weekinreview "Does Calling It Jihad Make It So?" Quotes: . . . British officials, on the other hand, referred to the men in custody as "main players," and declined to discuss either their motives or ideology so that they would not jeopardize "criminal proceedings." The difference in these initial public characterizations was revealing: The American president summoned up language reaffirming that the United States is locked in a global war in which its enemies are bound together by a common ideology, and a common hatred of democracy. For the moment, the British carefully stuck to the toned-down language of law enforcement. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 09:49:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EGnVSM018920; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:49:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EGnTtg018885; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:49:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:49:15 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C292886F CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Thread-Index: Aca/vTXX5ZsT1VbWRuuTE2tN05T39gAAPeYg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2006 16:49:16.0588 (UTC) FILETIME=[946506C0:01C6BFC1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7EGnJRq018751 Resent-Message-ID: <6Q8kDB.A.-mE.YmK4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree that cutting off the flow of oil derived wealth is the likely solution to most of the terror. Many Arab countries might be better off if their oil disappeared and they were forced to develop real, balanced economies that involve manufacturing and trade - like Turkey. If oil wealth were to evaporate, Iran in particular might become a surprizingly liberal democracy, with a secular basis. Supposedly, less than 25% of Iranians see religion as the dominant influence in their life. The best way to kill religion is to enshrine it as the government itself. That's why Americans are still religious and Europeans ( mostly) aren't - the failure of state sponsored religion. Even as I say this about oil wealth and terror, I realize that there is also some frightening evidence to the contrary. The Wall Street Journal published details, some time ago, about Bin Laden directed groups operating on a shoestring, with agents barely living on part time jobs while they plot murder. In addition, Atlantic magazine wrote about interviews with young Muslim men in Europe, who complained that they "felt like nothing". It isn't politically correct to talk about this - but I think it should be clear that the ugly contrast of a prosperous and advanced Western world while Muslim countries are often miserable AND Muslims elevating themselves into the Favored of Allah ( with all others being infidels) - creates hate filled fantasies to explain why their culture is so backward. "Jews", "The Great Satan" and infantile conspiracy theories take the place of harsh self analysis and change. You see this sort of sick "reasoning" everytime Indonesia has a tsunami. Things don't get any better as the 'idol-worshipping' Indians are finding prosperity. I hope that Doha, Qatar and other efforts give Muslims something to take pride In. Otherwise, a lack of oil money may not do the trick. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 10:20:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EHK4EL004407; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:20:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EHDHwm000443; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:13:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:13:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:03:58 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . . > > > True for non-conventional wars. Many Japanese people were willing to die > for their country in 1945 but the U.S. won with conventional weapons and > techniques. (I think the war would have been over soon even without the > atomic bomb.) > > >> and people are only willing to die when they feel very strong about >> their belief and see no alternative. The question is, how can the >> rest of us respond in a way that is more effective and avoid being >> sucked into the black hole of attack and counter attack? I don't think this approach will work under present conditions. In the process of denying funding, the people will get even more improvised and desperate. Funding can not be cut fast enough to stop the growing desperation. This method worked occasionally in the past but now things have changed. The physical infrastructure and economic stricture on which modern society is based is more fragile. Therefore, small isolated terrorists attacks can have a much bigger effect. Take 911 for example. The lose of life and damage to the economy was relatively small. However, the cost of the response has been huge, including the cost of the war in Iraq. The attempt to down airliners with explosive, even though it failed, will significantly increase the cost of doing business for the airlines, which are already near bankruptcy already. Many examples can be provided to show that the effect of this method of combat is increasing. If the price of gas goes much higher, a worldwide depression might be triggered. This would be a maximum effect that could be caused by a small action. So, we can not continue down the present path. Quite simply, I believe Bush is leading us all into disaster. Ed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 10:32:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EHWSLm010328; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:32:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EHWREG010292; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:32:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:32:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814130157.04139088 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:31:47 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C292886F CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.c learchannel.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C292886F CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >If oil wealth were to evaporate, Iran in particular might become a >surprizingly liberal democracy, with a secular basis. Supposedly, >less than 25% of Iranians see religion as the dominant influence in their life. I have heard that. There is also a lot of support for the US in Iran. There appears to be a lot of interest in cold fusion, too! That's a good sign. >Even as I say this about oil wealth and terror, I realize that >there is also some frightening evidence to the contrary. . . .The >Wall Street Journal published details, some time ago, about Bin >Laden directed groups operating on a shoestring, with agents barely >living on part time jobs while they plot murder. > >In addition, Atlantic magazine wrote about interviews with young >Muslim men in Europe, who complained that they "felt like nothing". Sure. The people plotting to blow up aircraft with liquid explosives were born in England. Their money and expertise apparently was coming from Pakistan. Cutting off the money is necessary but not sufficient. But as I said, these things tend to burn themselves out. The fever passes, the society recovers. In the 1960s, the US was plagued by war and riot, which has for the most part subsided. Many young Muslim men of Europe probably have a right to feel oppressed, ignored and angry. For that matter, many young black men in the US felt that way back in 1968, but over time they decided that burning down their own houses was not making things any better, so they stopped. As I see it, Middle Eastern societies have to stop trying to turn back the clock 800 years, and turn it back about a thousand years instead, to get back to their real roots as enlightened men of science. And we Europeans & Americans have to get back to *our* roots. We must return to the 1950s ideal of a brighter future, a middle-class life for everyone, technological progress, and education -- not Empire! -- as the source of wealth and power. One of the most despicable things about Dick Cheney is his espousal of the notion that the US should be an empire, lording over other countries. Nothing could be more un-American, or more self-destructive. This "super-power" garbage makes me sick. As a Russian said just before the fall of the Soviet Union, "we just want to live in an ordinary country." Nothing super about it -- just ordinary people going about their business. It will be good when the rest of the world catches up to the U.S. in wealth and military power (or potential military power), and the U.S. stops thinking it is the world's policeman. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 10:42:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EHftvL015513; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:42:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EHfs52015483; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:41:49 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-dCgYC.A.3xD.hXL4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I don't think this approach will work under present conditions. In >the process of denying funding, the people will get even more >improvised and desperate. There are 2 billion people in the world living in desperate conditions on the edge of starvation. They are not attacking us. All of the 9/11 plotters and all leading members of Al Qaeda are educated, middle-class people, or extremely wealthy people. Terrorism is not caused by poor and desperate people. > Funding can not be cut fast enough to stop the growing desperation. Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth practically nothing today. In January 1942 the US government closed down the entire automobile industry, confiscated every last assemble vehicle and spare part, and banned the sale of cars to civilians for the duration of the war (except to doctors and a few others). If we had taken similar bold action in 2001, and ordered the entire automobile industry to begin manufacturing plug-in hybrids only, we would be well on our way to reducing oil consumption by a factor of 10. Ford and General Motors would dominate the international market and would be selling tens of millions of ultra-efficient cars to China and other countries. Oil would be selling for $10 a barrel, and even at that price sales would be dropping. Saddam Hussein, the Saudi and Iranian governments would be bankrupt and probably overthrown by now. All this and more could have been done . . . but nothing was done. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 10:43:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EHh5nw016220; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:43:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EHh4wS016200; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:43:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:43:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=S3EPeJ0eXtdOB1hZAESC7uLEffSkKOv/lxEBI8gWDJ4ehhYfZR3/sJy/BmxPDO7ctK7BmLxGjJJcQbx4OE+p+RnhCdNBKBqs2bCsau0y31PG+L2fEBe9Kj4g9gGHcDm/VJxbEBhYobMgoISRM0I7D5lf6M7/Seserf7DJP7GGxc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:43:03 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_185589_21761957.1155577383505" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_185589_21761957.1155577383505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil funded. drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through other, not oil businesses. On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . . > > True for non-conventional wars. Many Japanese people were willing to > die for their country in 1945 but the U.S. won with conventional > weapons and techniques. (I think the war would have been over soon > even without the atomic bomb.) > > > >and people are only willing to die when they feel very strong about > >their belief and see no alternative. The question is, how can the > >rest of us respond in a way that is more effective and avoid being > >sucked into the black hole of attack and counter attack? > > I think the only way to win is to hit them in the pocketbook. We have > to take away their source of funding, which is oil money from Saudi > Arabia and Iran. If cold fusion makes oil worthless, the terror will > dry up in a few years. Heck, plug-in hybrid automobiles could do it. > Despite all the talk about "unconventional" and "asymmetric" war, it > still costs a great deal to run an organization like al-Qaeda, and > the fundamental cause of the war is social disruption triggered by > oceans of cash flowing through and corrupting these societies. If > al-Qaeda did not have hundreds of millions of dollars to throw into > these crazy schools and training camps in places like Pakistan, they > would soon lose their appeal and people would stop sending their > children to be indoctrinated. Muslim families do not do that in > India, the Philippines or anyplace else they can have a life and get > an actual education. > > The Saudi government sponsors school for diplomat's kids in Maryland, > that was described in the Washington Post a few years ago. It sounded > to me like a recruiting office for jihad and an effort to turn back > the clock 800 years. That kind of thing can never win and never last, > but as long as they can pay for it, it will cause disruption, > heartache and ruined lives. To the extent they do succeed they hurt > themselves most, and they fast-forward to the day when they will > revert to a camel-based economy facing starvation. > > Of course the Saudi people do not have to do this to themselves, > anymore than the flower of Japanese youth "had" to fly kamikaze > airplanes in 1945. The Japanese stopped their blood-mad insanity 61 > years ago tomorrow. The Saudis might come to their senses, turn > around beginning today, and embrace modernity, science, rationality > and progress. They might take the lead in cold fusion research and > become the super-power of the 21st century. Never forget that Moslem > society took the place of the Greeks as the leaders in science and > enlightenment, and triggered the European Renaissance. Nothing > inherent to Muslim culture prevents this from happening again. They > are enslaved by history, hate and oil money, not religion. > > (Not that religion does any good as far as I can tell. The least > religious modern nations, in Western Europe and Japan, are the most > law abiding, peaceful, wealthy, best educated, with the lowest infant > mortality and so on. I think it would be best if scientific and > technological progress extinguished religion altogether, but perhaps > that is too much to hope for. Anyway religion does little harm as > long as you keep it out of public schools, science classes, the > laboratory and the government.) > > There have been fanatical movements in the past devoted to death > cults and self-annihilation. They did not last long because the > self-annihilated. I think the technique is to kill and capture them, > drain the funding, and wait for the fever to pass. The British > approach last week, of treating this as a problem for the anti-terror > police squad, seems right to me. See: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/weekinreview/13sanger.html?ref=weekinreview > > "Does Calling It Jihad Make It So?" > > Quotes: > > . . . British officials, on the other hand, referred to the men in > custody as "main players," and declined to discuss either their > motives or ideology so that they would not jeopardize "criminal > proceedings." > > The difference in these initial public characterizations was > revealing: The American president summoned up language reaffirming > that the United States is locked in a global war in which its enemies > are bound together by a common ideology, and a common hatred of > democracy. For the moment, the British carefully stuck to the > toned-down language of law enforcement. > > > - Jed > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_185589_21761957.1155577383505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil funded.  drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through other, not oil businesses. 

On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Edmund Storms wrote:

>No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . .

True for non-conventional wars. Many Japanese people were willing to
die for their country in 1945 but the U.S. won with conventional
weapons and techniques. (I think the war would have been over soon
even without the atomic bomb.)


>and people are only willing to die when they feel very strong about
>their belief and see no alternative.  The question is, how can the
>rest of us respond in a way that is more effective and avoid being
>sucked into the black hole of attack and counter attack?

I think the only way to win is to hit them in the pocketbook. We have
to take away their source of funding, which is oil money from Saudi
Arabia and Iran. If cold fusion makes oil worthless, the terror will
dry up in a few years. Heck, plug-in hybrid automobiles could do it.
Despite all the talk about "unconventional" and "asymmetric" war, it
still costs a great deal to run an organization like al-Qaeda, and
the fundamental cause of the war is social disruption triggered by
oceans of cash flowing through and corrupting these societies. If
al-Qaeda did not have hundreds of millions of dollars to throw into
these crazy schools and training camps in places like Pakistan, they
would soon lose their appeal and people would stop sending their
children to be indoctrinated. Muslim families do not do that in
India, the Philippines or anyplace else they can have a life and get
an actual education.

The Saudi government sponsors school for diplomat's kids in Maryland,
that was described in the Washington Post a few years ago. It sounded
to me like a recruiting office for jihad and an effort to turn back
the clock 800 years. That kind of thing can never win and never last,
but as long as they can pay for it, it will cause disruption,
heartache and ruined lives. To the extent they do succeed they hurt
themselves most, and they fast-forward to the day when they will
revert to a camel-based economy facing starvation.

Of course the Saudi people do not have to do this to themselves,
anymore than the flower of Japanese youth "had" to fly kamikaze
airplanes in 1945. The Japanese stopped their blood-mad insanity 61
years ago tomorrow. The Saudis might come to their senses, turn
around beginning today, and embrace modernity, science, rationality
and progress. They might take the lead in cold fusion research and
become the super-power of the 21st century. Never forget that Moslem
society took the place of the Greeks as the leaders in science and
enlightenment, and triggered the European Renaissance. Nothing
inherent to Muslim culture prevents this from happening again. They
are enslaved by history, hate and oil money, not religion.

(Not that religion does any good as far as I can tell. The least
religious modern nations, in Western Europe and Japan, are the most
law abiding, peaceful, wealthy, best educated, with the lowest infant
mortality and so on. I think it would be best if scientific and
technological progress extinguished religion altogether, but perhaps
that is too much to hope for. Anyway religion does little harm as
long as you keep it out of public schools, science classes, the
laboratory and the government.)

There have been fanatical movements in the past devoted to death
cults and self-annihilation. They did not last long because the
self-annihilated. I think the technique is to kill and capture them,
drain the funding, and wait for the fever to pass. The British
approach last week, of treating this as a problem for the anti-terror
police squad, seems right to me. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/weekinreview/13sanger.html?ref=weekinreview

"Does Calling It Jihad Make It So?"

Quotes:

. . . British officials, on the other hand, referred to the men in
custody as "main players," and declined to discuss either their
motives or ideology so that they would not jeopardize "criminal proceedings."

The difference in these initial public characterizations was
revealing: The American president summoned up language reaffirming
that the United States is locked in a global war in which its enemies
are bound together by a common ideology, and a common hatred of
democracy. For the moment, the British carefully stuck to the
toned-down language of law enforcement.


- Jed





--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_185589_21761957.1155577383505-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 11:09:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EI8rru029739; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:08:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EI8pFZ029713; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:08:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:08:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:08:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Leaking pen wrote: >not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil funded. The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim. Everything and everyone in the Middle East outside of Israel is funded by oil. They have no other industry or source of income. The whole area of about a dozen nations combined (excluding Israel) has an industrial GNP smaller than Finland. >. . . drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through >other, not oil businesses. Drug dealers do not want to disrupt society. In any case, if the oil money is cut off, the Middle Eastern societies which today breed terrorism would be so caught up in their own internal crisis, they would have no energy left to bother us. If they deal with the problem correctly they will soon be as wealthy as Japan was after it recovered from the devastation of World War II. Or, if they choose to continue down the path of nihilism they will soon be a basket case worse than the most desperate nations of sub-Saharan Africa. There are no terrorists coming from Mali or Tanzania. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 11:35:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EIYxjh009983; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EIYwT2009963; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:34:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:34:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:36:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2huDHD.A.nbC.RJM4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> I don't think this approach will work under present conditions. In >> the process of denying funding, the people will get even more >> improvised and desperate. > > > There are 2 billion people in the world living in desperate conditions > on the edge of starvation. They are not attacking us. All of the 9/11 > plotters and all leading members of Al Qaeda are educated, middle-class > people, or extremely wealthy people. Terrorism is not caused by poor and > desperate people. OK, what do you think causes terrorism? Why would an educated person give up their life to blow up an airplane? These people are not insane or without love of life, and the 72 virgins reason is pure propaganda. Of course, starving and ignorant people will not and can not cause much damage, unless as a mob. The effective terrorist acts are well planned and carried out as a military operation. This means the people are smart and view the act as being more important than their own life, just as all solders are taught. Why do you think they would come to this conclusion? If a person is smart and educated, they could normally get a good job and live a happy life. What makes these people so angry they would give this up and want to kill us? I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are encouraged to believe. I believe we have done and continue to do things any rational person would find upsetting if these same things were done to us. Of course, the situation has now gone beyond just being nice now and expect a change. We have to defend against the poison that has been created, but we can avoid making more in the future. To avoid making more , we need to know what went wrong and not continue to make the same mistake. This requires knowledge on our part, not propaganda and get even response. > >> Funding can not be cut fast enough to stop the growing desperation. > > > Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II style > effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth > practically nothing today. Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be done and if they were, other worse consequences would result. Solutions have to involve what can happen and then not produce worse situations. Some people would like us to nuke the whole region as a solution, but it is easy to predict this would result in a very much worse situation. If the administration wanted to solve the problems, a few useful things could be done. For example, tax breaks for the oil industry could be reduced and these applied to other energy sources at a level sufficient to cause rapid change. A tax break could be applied to buying small cars rather than big ones. Bush could lower the tension by talking to the "bad" guys rather than taking a superior approach. People who have some knowledge about their jobs, rather than party loyalty, could be placed in important positions. However, all of these suggestions will be ignored because this is not the style of our present government. Ed In January 1942 the US government closed down > the entire automobile industry, confiscated every last assemble vehicle > and spare part, and banned the sale of cars to civilians for the > duration of the war (except to doctors and a few others). If we had > taken similar bold action in 2001, and ordered the entire automobile > industry to begin manufacturing plug-in hybrids only, we would be well > on our way to reducing oil consumption by a factor of 10. Ford and > General Motors would dominate the international market and would be > selling tens of millions of ultra-efficient cars to China and other > countries. Oil would be selling for $10 a barrel, and even at that price > sales would be dropping. Saddam Hussein, the Saudi and Iranian > governments would be bankrupt and probably overthrown by now. > > All this and more could have been done . . . but nothing was done. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 12:23:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EJN1IC002032; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:23:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EJMv6F001986; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:22:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:22:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:22:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7xSgdC.A.3e.R2M4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >OK, what do you think causes terrorism? Why would an educated >person give up their life to blow up an airplane? These people are >not insane or without love of life, and the 72 virgins reason is >pure propaganda. I believe the pattern of history is clear on this. The French reign of terror, the Russian Revolution, the Nazis, the Japanese militarist of the 1930s and many other terrorist regimes came about when society began to backslide, because of war or depression or some other widespread, severe social problem. Such movements are usually led by educated lower- and middle-class young man felt left out, without hope, or betrayed. Once the movement starts up, poor people may fill its ranks, but people like Lenin, Mao, Stalin and the Japanese officer corps that overthrew democracy in the 1930s were educated. Ambition and skill that is not channeled into socially beneficial work goes into destruction instead. Perhaps it makes things even worse when the fanatics believe in some sort of violent religion, such as the Japanese emperor worship, or communism (which was really a religion in 1917), or today's Muslim extremism. I do not think those 72 virgins are propaganda. I am quite sure most of the Japanese fanatics actually did worship the Emperor. A number of the survivors and right wing grandsons still do worship him. It is creepy and it seems unbelievable to those of us outside the movement, but it is real. The North Koreans also worship Kim Jong Il. > Of course, starving and ignorant people will not and can not cause > much damage, unless as a mob. With poor people it is always local. >If a person is smart and educated, they could normally get a good >job and live a happy life. Not when society is collapsing all around them, and access to advancement and wealth are cut off by the ruling class. I have read books describing modern-day Saudi society and the level of corruption and power grabbing makes Japan in the 1930s look civilized. Everything which is not nailed down is stolen by the ~20,000 princes in the Royal family. If you start a company, or open a restaurant in a shopping mall, and you begin to make a profit, some prince soon strolls in off the street, gives you a wad of cash amounting to ten cents on the dollar for your assets, and either you hand over all of your wealth or you are dead. This is what happens when you concentrate vast power and wealth in the hands of despots. >What makes these people so angry they would give this up and want to kill us? Actually, we have little to do with it. It is a fight within these countries, which is spilling over to us. Our administrations going back to FDR have contributed by helping these governments crush opposition, and of course we are the ones who hand over billions of dollars, and make SUVs to drive up the cost of oil. >I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >encouraged to believe. They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what he has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most popular man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named their sons after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I think they are misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the militarists too. No doubt the majority of the country did, even though it was pretty obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the nation into Hell. >>Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be >>worth practically nothing today. > >Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be >done and if they were, other worse consequences would result. Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If FDR or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. I mean immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar emergency wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight the war in Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of SUVs. If this is really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their responsibility to do such things. Wars are never won by half-measures. The nation would follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: "Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal from us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so speedily, assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. It is not 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do better?' The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country. Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. . . . We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. . . ." http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it did to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know what must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never sell the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 and look where it got them. Probably more than any other people on earth, we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. As Edward Grey put it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who are not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when they were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly lost the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the nomination. The people next in line who would have won if they had lost would have led the nation into oblivion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 12:35:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EJZeXN008825; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:35:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EJZcJh008804; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:35:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:35:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=gyfdfxBZKnD1kd00ZrsbiwvFKeJCiQQwfeSIJoENCNNhX/4ozWARx4ecpkCyyn1vGVoTyaPxOzVqYPAOErPxuEIak052Q5ELHXXYmtMAaiUpmL/VN67wxWuUlhFuVpzQK6uwsAUTlDO9NplIeTTxPDTiMcyLztorX/R3cWpvQLI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:35:37 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_188263_11056339.1155584137428" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_188263_11056339.1155584137428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline al queada, based out of afghanistan, is funded primarily by the manufacture and sale of opium and heroin. middle east countries have many other sources of income besides oil. And hows about the basque terrorists? Hows about the oklahoma city bombing, was that a muslim? didnt think so, and groups like his still exist. there are still anti government riots and terror attacks and plots from many groups that are not muslim. assuming otherwise becuase a single convenient scapegoat makes you FEEL better is foolhardy. On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Leaking pen wrote: > > >not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil > funded. > > The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim. > Everything and everyone in the Middle East outside of Israel is > funded by oil. They have no other industry or source of income. The > whole area of about a dozen nations combined (excluding Israel) has > an industrial GNP smaller than Finland. > > > >. . . drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through > >other, not oil businesses. > > Drug dealers do not want to disrupt society. > > In any case, if the oil money is cut off, the Middle Eastern > societies which today breed terrorism would be so caught up in their > own internal crisis, they would have no energy left to bother us. If > they deal with the problem correctly they will soon be as wealthy as > Japan was after it recovered from the devastation of World War II. > Or, if they choose to continue down the path of nihilism they will > soon be a basket case worse than the most desperate nations of > sub-Saharan Africa. There are no terrorists coming from Mali or Tanzania. > > - Jed > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_188263_11056339.1155584137428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
al queada, based out of afghanistan, is funded primarily by the manufacture and sale of opium and heroin.  middle east countries have many other sources of income besides oil. 
 
 
And hows about the basque terrorists?  Hows about the oklahoma city bombing, was that a muslim?  didnt think so, and groups like his still exist. 
 
there are still anti government riots and terror attacks and plots from many groups that are not muslim.  assuming otherwise becuase a single convenient scapegoat makes you FEEL better is foolhardy.

 
On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Leaking pen wrote:

>not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil funded.

The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim.
Everything and everyone in the Middle East outside of Israel is
funded by oil. They have no other industry or source of income. The
whole area of about a dozen nations combined (excluding Israel) has
an industrial GNP smaller than Finland.


>. . . drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through
>other, not oil businesses.

Drug dealers do not want to disrupt society.

In any case, if the oil money is cut off, the Middle Eastern
societies which today breed terrorism would be so caught up in their
own internal crisis, they would have no energy left to bother us. If
they deal with the problem correctly they will soon be as wealthy as
Japan was after it recovered from the devastation of World War II.
Or, if they choose to continue down the path of nihilism they will
soon be a basket case worse than the most desperate nations of
sub-Saharan Africa. There are no terrorists coming from Mali or Tanzania.

- Jed





--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_188263_11056339.1155584137428-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 12:37:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EJbBj2009669; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:37:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EJbAeR009648; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:37:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:37:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Y/Fsio3MmJR8opWsGl8pwA3RgYdEiDAIEvMBRKDOKtrjy7uMsoLXn889CFW2iDO47LAyuggSwM/0cRZo7b0EPULIIxTL3FQgv/AGa80hbuSJ+kit5qp4vpCIMGdf+PIfnvebV0o+EzIqPT8m3cPGmCtzIdShEuCtDR1CbSQMj3U= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:37:07 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_188287_28702540.1155584227211" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_188287_28702540.1155584227211 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ohh, and, the main breeding of terrorism is the prescence of other groups within thier countries. namely, us and israeli prescence. if it werent for our bases in iran and turkey, osama bin laden wouldnt have given two pieces of ratshit for us in the usa. On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Leaking pen wrote: > > >not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil > funded. > > The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim. > Everything and everyone in the Middle East outside of Israel is > funded by oil. They have no other industry or source of income. The > whole area of about a dozen nations combined (excluding Israel) has > an industrial GNP smaller than Finland. > > > >. . . drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through > >other, not oil businesses. > > Drug dealers do not want to disrupt society. > > In any case, if the oil money is cut off, the Middle Eastern > societies which today breed terrorism would be so caught up in their > own internal crisis, they would have no energy left to bother us. If > they deal with the problem correctly they will soon be as wealthy as > Japan was after it recovered from the devastation of World War II. > Or, if they choose to continue down the path of nihilism they will > soon be a basket case worse than the most desperate nations of > sub-Saharan Africa. There are no terrorists coming from Mali or Tanzania. > > - Jed > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_188287_28702540.1155584227211 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ohh, and, the main breeding of terrorism is the prescence of other groups within thier countries.  namely, us and israeli prescence.  if it werent for our bases in iran and turkey, osama bin laden wouldnt have given two pieces of ratshit for us in the usa.

On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Leaking pen wrote:

>not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil funded.

The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim.
Everything and everyone in the Middle East outside of Israel is
funded by oil. They have no other industry or source of income. The
whole area of about a dozen nations combined (excluding Israel) has
an industrial GNP smaller than Finland.


>. . . drugs funds a lot of them as well, and some are funded through
>other, not oil businesses.

Drug dealers do not want to disrupt society.

In any case, if the oil money is cut off, the Middle Eastern
societies which today breed terrorism would be so caught up in their
own internal crisis, they would have no energy left to bother us. If
they deal with the problem correctly they will soon be as wealthy as
Japan was after it recovered from the devastation of World War II.
Or, if they choose to continue down the path of nihilism they will
soon be a basket case worse than the most desperate nations of
sub-Saharan Africa. There are no terrorists coming from Mali or Tanzania.

- Jed





--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_188287_28702540.1155584227211-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 13:07:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EK7Qxt025714; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:07:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EK7Ndw025674; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:07:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814154059.0412a978 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:07:10 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4bb6KD.A.9QG.6fN4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Leaking pen wrote: >al queada, based out of afghanistan, is funded primarily by the >manufacture and sale of opium and heroin. That's true. Good point. That is a fairly recent development. However, the loss of oil revenue would so devastate them this could not make up the difference. > middle east countries have many other sources of income besides oil. Nope. Practically none. They are 280 million people with about as much income as the 5.2 million people in Finland. Whatever other income they have from opium, dried fish, or what-have-you would be utterly swamped by the chaos of losing the oil income. I am not saying this would be enjoyable or a pretty picture, and I personally would not feel much schadenfreude. Initially, it would result in a horrible mess for everyone, including us. It would be awful for the Russians and Venezuelans too. They also depend upon oil, and their societies are gradually being corrupted & destroyed by it. But it has to be done, and the sooner the better for everyone. They are going to run out of oil anyway. After a few years of crisis they will either recover the way the Japanese did after World War II, or descend into poverty and starvation. >And hows about the basque terrorists? No threat to the U.S. > Hows about the oklahoma city bombing, was that a muslim? I would not call that terrorism. Just one or two lunatics committing a crime. Such things happen in every nation, in every era, albeit seldom on such a large scale. >there are still anti government riots and terror attacks and plots >from many groups that are not muslim. None against the U.S. as far as I know. There are of course millions of Muslims who have nothing against the US. I think the CIA estimated there are about 100 million people who say they favor Al Qaeda, wear t-shirts of the twin-towers falling, name their sons after bin Laden and so on. Wealthy supporters contribute $2 or $3 million per day to Al Qaeda operations, so it is a formidable operation. You can bet that 99% of the money those wealthy supporters send comes from oil, and if the price collapses they will not contribute zero after that. Naming babies will not pay for a terrorist operation. > assuming otherwise becuase a single convenient scapegoat makes > you FEEL better is foolhardy. It is not a scapegoat. I suggest you read what Al Qaeda has published, and what they publicly declare they want to do. You should always take such people at their word. They do not hide their agenda. They say they plan to get Russian nuclear bombs and to destroy several U.S. cities. Leading imams in Pakistan and elsewhere have blessed these plans and given permission to kill up to 10 million people. The Japanese militarists, Hitler, Stalin and Mao boldly announced their plans and they followed through. With $3 million per day Al Qaeda can do all of that and more, and you can be darn sure they *will* do it, if they can. They would have blown up those 10 airplanes last week. This is a serious threat, although unfortunately the U.S. leaders' response has been a joke and a sellout. We could have stopped them cold three years ago but cutting off the oil money, but we have not raised a finger to do so. If they do hit us with a half dozen nuclear bombs, then my plan to stop manufacturing conventional cars immediately will seem like a very tame half-measure. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 13:21:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EKLdPH032568; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:21:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EKLbTu032538; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:21:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:21:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814160725.0403e248 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:21:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >Ohh, and, the main breeding of terrorism is the prescence of other >groups within thier countries. namely, us and israeli >prescence. if it werent for our bases in iran and turkey, osama bin >laden wouldnt have given two pieces of ratshit for us in the usa. That is not what he says. He says the problem is our support for the Saudi government. Plus naturally he plans to nuke Israel, along with us. I suggest you read what he says. He is not keeping his agenda secret any more than Hitler did. As a general rule, when a powerful despotic leader threatens to kill millions of people the way Hitler, Stalin, Mao and now bin Laden did, you want to take him seriously. You should assume he means it. He also seriously expects us to surrender, convert to Islam and begin imposing sharia law on ourselves. The Japanese seriously believed we would surrender in 1942, and negotiate a treaty. You can be 100% sure of that; they never would have attacked otherwise. (They would have attacked Russia instead, which they almost did, but after a debate they decided the U.S. was a softer target which they could knock off in six months.) I realize that sounds crazy from our point of view, but that is what they believed. Of course I agree our presence is not improving things. Even the U.S. generals admit that these days. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 13:39:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EKdEMF008074; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:39:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EKdDqS008057; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:39:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:39:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:39:07 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Thread-Index: Aca/0H6JaWF24LhHTlC6u9SdAxuiPwADqx4A From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2006 20:39:08.0718 (UTC) FILETIME=[B1250CE0:01C6BFE1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7EKd8M3007962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When 9-11 happened, what depressed and horrified me the most was not the actual losses of life and property, although they were bad enough. What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In short, they had every available benefit or pleasure western society offered - and still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. If we cannot count on these sort of activities civilizing a person - or at least allowing them to release whatever intense emotion dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains. What I fear most is the inevitable expansion of technology getting into Muslim hands - I hesitate to say "radical Muslims" because it still is not clear to me that such radicalism is really radical among large numbers of Muslims. At any rate, while cold fusion may not give us fissionable materials at present, We can't be sure that a simple procedure won't allow that kind of threat in the future, by whatever physics uncovers. We, of the west, have a right to survive as individuals and as a culture. I continue to hope that negotiation and good sense prevail everywhere, especially In the Middle East. Nevertheless, if these countries refuse to reform - and technology of mass destruction falls into the hands of terrorists with their blessings, I would not flinch at their mass annihilation. I am also horrified at the numbers of people who ignore this - and eagerly seize upon schemes of appeasement In the present crisis. Let's all hope for 'free energy' and the peace that it might bring about. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:31:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELVRnr001777; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELVPlg001749; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:31:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.c learchannel.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved >might have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed >alcohol. In short, they had every available benefit or pleasure >western society offered - and still dedicated themselves to mass >murder and suicide. If we cannot count on these sort of activities >civilizing a person - or at least allowing them to release whatever >intense emotion dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains. Don't fret too much. You can say the same thing for the officers and men of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. They had every available benefit of our society, but they attacked Pearl Harbor and as a group they committed some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, in China. They were aided, abetted and celebrated by the whole society for doing things such as cutting innocent civilian's heads off with swords, and torturing American POWs in unspeakable ways. Of course many of the individuals who did that got what they deserved -- they were hanged -- but the point is that society as a whole was in very much in favor of this savagery. They seemed incorrigible in 1945, but things changed and most of them lived decent, upstanding, civilized lives. I knew several of them, and they were fine people. Most of them sincerely came to believe in democracy and to want to live in peace. Only a few harbored animosity toward the U.S. For that matter, it is pretty horrifying to think of the finest collection of scientists in history devising nuclear weapons at Los Alamos, which were used to kill 300,000 people with the utmost cruelty. I met some of those scientists, and I expect everyone here has read books and papers by them. They were not monsters. They were good, decent people doing what they thought was a moral imperative, and perhaps they were right. People can change. Societies change, reform and progress. You must forgive and move on. The burden of history would be too heavy for any of us to bear otherwise. Yes, the 100 million people who support Al Qaeda will dance in the streets if 10 million of us are killed by nuclear weapons. But that may not happen, and sooner or later these people will come to their senses. Their hate will subside -- it always does. People in the past have often laid down their weapons and lived together peacefully even after long, bitter, terrible wars, such as the U.S. Civil War, which lasted 103 years from 1860 to 1963, counting the Jim Crow reign of terror against black people. The thing is, in the meanwhile, before the Muslim extremists come to their senses, we must take steps to try to ensure they do not get nuclear bombs. We must capture and kill them whenever possible, and above all take away their money. All the anger and the world will avail them nothing if they have no money. We have to stop handing over billions of dollars to these people! It is like selling scrap metal to the Japanese when we know they plan to use it for shrapnel in bombs they drop on us. (That happened, by the way.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:32:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELW1Av002192; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:32:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELVxbP002157; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007201c6bfe9$0d6f4900$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:31:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <2AQBTC.A.ph.PvO4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote:- Leaking pen wrote: >not all terrorist groups are muslim, and not all muslim groups are oil >funded. The only terrorists threatening the US and the UK are Muslim. >> True now; but in the UK, we had the IRA terrorists bombing civilians for decades. They got a lot of financial support from the Boston, USA area of America and got a fair proportion of their weapons from the USA too. By the logic of Bush and Cheney, and some posters on Vortex, we Brits would have been justified in turning the "daytime temperature" of Boston and Dublin to 1,000,000 degrees or invading Ireland to change the government in a "war" against terrorism. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:33:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELJp0X027088; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:19:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELJeLM027023; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:19:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:19:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:21:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >> I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >> encouraged to believe. > > > They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what he > has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most popular > man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named their sons > after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I think they are > misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the militarists too. > No doubt the majority of the country did, even though it was pretty > obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the nation into Hell. I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your friends, you might think of murder. Ed > > >>> Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>> style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth >>> practically nothing today. >> >> >> Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >> all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be done >> and if they were, other worse consequences would result. > > > Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If FDR > or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. I mean > immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar emergency > wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight the war in > Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of SUVs. If this is > really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their responsibility to do > such things. Wars are never won by half-measures. The nation would > follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: > > "Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal from > us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so speedily, > assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. It is not > 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do better?' The dogmas > of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is > piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As > our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must > disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country. > > Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this > administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal > significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. . . . > We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save > it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. . > . ." > > http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm > > All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it did > to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know what > must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. > > And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never sell > the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 and look > where it got them. Probably more than any other people on earth, we are > capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. As Edward Grey put > it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is > lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." > > The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who are > not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army volunteers. > In the past, such people have often stepped forth when they were needed. > But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly lost the election > and FDR had great difficulty securing the nomination. The people next in > line who would have won if they had lost would have led the nation into > oblivion. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:46:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELkQsV010364; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:46:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELkOjl010332; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:46:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:46:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E0EF98.1000508 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:48:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, you are proposing we treat the Moslem countries exactly how we treated Germany after WWI. The plan was make them pay for what they did during WWI and make them too poor to ever do it again. As a result Hitler and WWII resulted. On the other hand, after WWII we gave a great deal of money to Japan and to Germany, which helped them become prosperous. As a result, we have had no more problems. Also, how do you plan to deny terrorists money without making the entire region poor and pissed off? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > >> What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might >> have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In >> short, they had every available benefit or pleasure western society >> offered - and still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. >> If we cannot count on these sort of activities civilizing a person - >> or at least allowing them to release whatever intense emotion >> dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains. > > > Don't fret too much. You can say the same thing for the officers and men > of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. They had every available benefit > of our society, but they attacked Pearl Harbor and as a group they > committed some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, in > China. They were aided, abetted and celebrated by the whole society for > doing things such as cutting innocent civilian's heads off with swords, > and torturing American POWs in unspeakable ways. Of course many of the > individuals who did that got what they deserved -- they were hanged -- > but the point is that society as a whole was in very much in favor of > this savagery. They seemed incorrigible in 1945, but things changed and > most of them lived decent, upstanding, civilized lives. I knew several > of them, and they were fine people. Most of them sincerely came to > believe in democracy and to want to live in peace. Only a few harbored > animosity toward the U.S. > > For that matter, it is pretty horrifying to think of the finest > collection of scientists in history devising nuclear weapons at Los > Alamos, which were used to kill 300,000 people with the utmost cruelty. > I met some of those scientists, and I expect everyone here has read > books and papers by them. They were not monsters. They were good, decent > people doing what they thought was a moral imperative, and perhaps they > were right. > > People can change. Societies change, reform and progress. You must > forgive and move on. The burden of history would be too heavy for any of > us to bear otherwise. Yes, the 100 million people who support Al Qaeda > will dance in the streets if 10 million of us are killed by nuclear > weapons. But that may not happen, and sooner or later these people will > come to their senses. Their hate will subside -- it always does. People > in the past have often laid down their weapons and lived together > peacefully even after long, bitter, terrible wars, such as the U.S. > Civil War, which lasted 103 years from 1860 to 1963, counting the Jim > Crow reign of terror against black people. > > The thing is, in the meanwhile, before the Muslim extremists come to > their senses, we must take steps to try to ensure they do not get > nuclear bombs. We must capture and kill them whenever possible, and > above all take away their money. All the anger and the world will avail > them nothing if they have no money. We have to stop handing over > billions of dollars to these people! It is like selling scrap metal to > the Japanese when we know they plan to use it for shrapnel in bombs they > drop on us. (That happened, by the way.) > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:49:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELnZuh012031; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:49:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELnXij011999; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:49:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:49:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814174229.0404c250 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:49:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <007201c6bfe9$0d6f4900$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248 mindspring.com> <007201c6bfe9$0d6f4900$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >True now; but in the UK, we had the IRA terrorists bombing civilians >for decades. And now they have stopped, thank goodness. I think it is over. That's my point; these things eventually stop. >They got a lot of financial support from the Boston, USA area of >America and got a fair proportion of their weapons from the USA too. My point is that financial support is where the Muslim terrorists are uniquely vulnerable. It is their Achilles' heel. Suppose that you knew 99% of the IRA money was coming out of Boston, and furthermore you knew that 99% of Boston's income came from oil, sold mainly to the UK. That would make it easy. Just stop buying oil, the price collapses, and suddenly your IRA terrorists can hardly afford to buy bullets. It does not fix the problem but it sure helps make it manageable. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 14:51:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ELpUxp012914; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:51:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ELpStx012891; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:51:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:51:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=W22hxJdgFKz1gXBJrD+LYN8xsa25oBZHlI8R4qR7fph+8szyfPyarDJ+zEGvM4GYrGjRfD0Q0muu+847ykIkFODoDic0BE/OcyArgXNzcjIukfg7g7Zvs+XkH92NcS1mUt11KYBoB8eTYZxXswxjMTH/Ok1hNXLBYJtElPZpFSQ= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:51:27 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0EF98.1000508 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_191554_7258828.1155592287142" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828 mindspring.com> <44E0EF98.1000508 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_191554_7258828.1155592287142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hes also stating that the average person ever sees dime one of the oil money. its the primary income for the RICH. not every one else there. On 8/14/06, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Jed, you are proposing we treat the Moslem countries exactly how we > treated Germany after WWI. The plan was make them pay for what they did > during WWI and make them too poor to ever do it again. As a result > Hitler and WWII resulted. On the other hand, after WWII we gave a great > deal of money to Japan and to Germany, which helped them become > prosperous. As a result, we have had no more problems. Also, how do you > plan to deny terrorists money without making the entire region poor and > pissed off? > > Ed > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Zell, Chris wrote: > > > >> What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might > >> have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In > >> short, they had every available benefit or pleasure western society > >> offered - and still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. > >> If we cannot count on these sort of activities civilizing a person - > >> or at least allowing them to release whatever intense emotion > >> dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains. > > > > > > Don't fret too much. You can say the same thing for the officers and men > > of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. They had every available benefit > > of our society, but they attacked Pearl Harbor and as a group they > > committed some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, in > > China. They were aided, abetted and celebrated by the whole society for > > doing things such as cutting innocent civilian's heads off with swords, > > and torturing American POWs in unspeakable ways. Of course many of the > > individuals who did that got what they deserved -- they were hanged -- > > but the point is that society as a whole was in very much in favor of > > this savagery. They seemed incorrigible in 1945, but things changed and > > most of them lived decent, upstanding, civilized lives. I knew several > > of them, and they were fine people. Most of them sincerely came to > > believe in democracy and to want to live in peace. Only a few harbored > > animosity toward the U.S. > > > > For that matter, it is pretty horrifying to think of the finest > > collection of scientists in history devising nuclear weapons at Los > > Alamos, which were used to kill 300,000 people with the utmost cruelty. > > I met some of those scientists, and I expect everyone here has read > > books and papers by them. They were not monsters. They were good, decent > > people doing what they thought was a moral imperative, and perhaps they > > were right. > > > > People can change. Societies change, reform and progress. You must > > forgive and move on. The burden of history would be too heavy for any of > > us to bear otherwise. Yes, the 100 million people who support Al Qaeda > > will dance in the streets if 10 million of us are killed by nuclear > > weapons. But that may not happen, and sooner or later these people will > > come to their senses. Their hate will subside -- it always does. People > > in the past have often laid down their weapons and lived together > > peacefully even after long, bitter, terrible wars, such as the U.S. > > Civil War, which lasted 103 years from 1860 to 1963, counting the Jim > > Crow reign of terror against black people. > > > > The thing is, in the meanwhile, before the Muslim extremists come to > > their senses, we must take steps to try to ensure they do not get > > nuclear bombs. We must capture and kill them whenever possible, and > > above all take away their money. All the anger and the world will avail > > them nothing if they have no money. We have to stop handing over > > billions of dollars to these people! It is like selling scrap metal to > > the Japanese when we know they plan to use it for shrapnel in bombs they > > drop on us. (That happened, by the way.) > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_191554_7258828.1155592287142 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hes also stating that the average person ever sees dime one of the oil money.  its the primary income for the RICH.  not every one else there.

On 8/14/06, Edmund Storms <storms2@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Jed, you are proposing we treat the Moslem countries exactly how we
treated Germany after WWI.  The plan was make them pay for what they did
during WWI and make them too poor to ever do it again.  As a result
Hitler and WWII resulted.  On the other hand, after WWII we gave a great
deal of money to Japan and to Germany, which helped them become
prosperous. As a result, we have had no more problems. Also, how do you
plan to deny terrorists money without making the entire region poor and
pissed off?

Ed
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Zell, Chris wrote:
>
>> What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might
>> have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol.  In
>> short, they had every available benefit or pleasure western society
>> offered  - and still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide.
>> If we cannot count on these sort of activities civilizing a person -
>> or at least allowing them to release whatever intense emotion
>> dominates them - I'm not sure what hope for humanity remains.
>
>
> Don't fret too much. You can say the same thing for the officers and men
> of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. They had every available benefit
> of our society, but they attacked Pearl Harbor and as a group they
> committed some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, in
> China. They were aided, abetted and celebrated by the whole society for
> doing things such as cutting innocent civilian's heads off with swords,
> and torturing American POWs in unspeakable ways. Of course many of the
> individuals who did that got what they deserved -- they were hanged --
> but the point is that society as a whole was in very much in favor of
> this savagery. They seemed incorrigible in 1945, but things changed and
> most of them lived decent, upstanding, civilized lives. I knew several
> of them, and they were fine people. Most of them sincerely came to
> believe in democracy and to want to live in peace. Only a few harbored
> animosity toward the U.S.
>
> For that matter, it is pretty horrifying to think of the finest
> collection of scientists in history devising nuclear weapons at Los
> Alamos, which were used to kill 300,000 people with the utmost cruelty.
> I met some of those scientists, and I expect everyone here has read
> books and papers by them. They were not monsters. They were good, decent
> people doing what they thought was a moral imperative, and perhaps they
> were right.
>
> People can change. Societies change, reform and progress. You must
> forgive and move on. The burden of history would be too heavy for any of
> us to bear otherwise. Yes, the 100 million people who support Al Qaeda
> will dance in the streets if 10 million of us are killed by nuclear
> weapons. But that may not happen, and sooner or later these people will
> come to their senses. Their hate will subside -- it always does. People
> in the past have often laid down their weapons and lived together
> peacefully even after long, bitter, terrible wars, such as the U.S.
> Civil War, which lasted 103 years from 1860 to 1963, counting the Jim
> Crow reign of terror against black people.
>
> The thing is, in the meanwhile, before the Muslim extremists come to
> their senses, we must take steps to try to ensure they do not get
> nuclear bombs. We must capture and kill them whenever possible, and
> above all take away their money. All the anger and the world will avail
> them nothing if they have no money. We have to stop handing over
> billions of dollars to these people! It is like selling scrap metal to
> the Japanese when we know they plan to use it for shrapnel in bombs they
> drop on us. (That happened, by the way.)
>
> - Jed
>
>
>




--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_191554_7258828.1155592287142-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 15:20:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EMKVLX026852; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:20:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EMKUwf026829; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814175600.0405b768 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:17:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >>>I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>encouraged to believe. >> >>They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see >>what he has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." . . . >I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are >certain behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude >toward sex. The quotes from bin Laden in the book "Imperial Hubris" do not mention that kind of thing. No doubt he does hate those behaviors, but as the author points out, he could not motivate dozens of young men to kill themselves because they do not like our attitude toward sex, and he could not gather $3 million a day to combat such attitudes. (The author was the CIA's top expert in Al Qaeda terrorism, and he seems to know what he is talking about.) I think the reasons given by bin Laden are the real ones, and they are the reasons that stir up his many supporters. I do not think it is any great mystery why these people are attacking us. Their reasons seem crazy to me, but you can say the same about the Japanese rationale for attacking Pearl Harbor. Just because it sounds crazy to us does not mean they are dissembling or they do not believe it themselves. I also think it would be pretty easy for us to stop most of the attacks by choking off their money. The situation seems cut and dry to me. It is much less complicated than some previous wars. My proposal, to eliminate the use of conventional automobiles and cut oil consumption by a factor of 10, would not instantly destroy bin Laden but it would certainly hurt him far more than anything else we have done so far. It would also be far cheaper than what the war has cost so far, with the total is expected to cost which is now roughly $1 trillion, counting the money will pay in the future to disabled soldiers and things like that. It would start to cure the fever that is affecting Middle Eastern society. Of course there would be other benefits to reducing oil consumption by a factor of 10, such as the money we would save, preventing global warming, and giving US automakers overwhelming dominance in the world market. It could easily be done! The technology has been in place for decades. Do not let anyone tell you Americans are incapable of implementing technological leaps on short notice. As I said, it would call for near-term sacrifice and national unity, which no politician today thinks he or she can ask for. Actually, the politicians have it backward. The people are ready to sacrifice, and any leader who carries out a bold and successful plan such as the one I described here would have an 80% approval rating. They simply do not realize that the problem can be fixed, or how to lead, or what people are willing to do. The politicians have no faith in the people, but they darn well should. Of course the automobile companies would squawk, just as they did in 1942. Of course many people would evade the $5 emergency wartime tax and the 95% emergency wartime income tax at the top brackets. But Americans know how to sacrifice and work together. If the politicians make a convincing case that we are seriously at war and we may be destroyed by nuclear weapons if we do not act, the people can be counted upon to do whatever is needed. They are strong, brave and resourceful, as they have shown countless times in the past. If we are not seriously at war, we have no right to ask even one volunteer soldier to give his life. That's not how a democracy works. We have to pull out immediately and, in effect, surrender. A burden as harsh as war must be shared by everyone. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 15:37:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7EMaiNZ001620; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:36:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7EMah2J001604; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:36:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:36:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814181736.0406cbb8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:36:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0EF98.1000508 ix.netcom.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828 mindspring.com> <44E0EF98.1000508 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Jed, you are proposing we treat the Moslem countries exactly how we >treated Germany after WWI. The plan was make them pay for what they >did during WWI and make them too poor to ever do it again. I do not propose to take anything away from them! Just stop giving them billions of dollars. They have billions in the bank already. If they are smart and resourceful they can avoid a crisis. If they are not, that is their problem, not ours. They will have no money or skills to develop an army the way Germany did after World War I. Actually, people everywhere *are* smart and resourceful. You just have to give them a sane society and the chance to live decently and they always will. It is a sure thing that all those disgruntled engineers who are presently lining up to kill themselves by crashing airplanes into us would be happy and fulfilled if they were given the challenge to rebuild their society the way Japanese engineers did after 1945. What they want is more work and more challenge, not less. Put them in charge of a cold fusion desalination megaproject to transform the region they will never again contemplate suicide! We could cut our consumption in half tomorrow, but it would take some years to cut it back by a factor of 10. While we are doing that the Saudis and others can take responsible steps to develop industry and fix their economy. >On the other hand, after WWII we gave a great deal of money to Japan >and to Germany, which helped them become prosperous. Actually, we took money out of Japan. They were not covered by the Marshall plan. They received no industrial assistance, apart from the use of a few US troop carriers to return overseas Japanese people stranded by the war. Although we did ship emergency food rations into Japan, we also charged them every year for "occupation expenses," and most years the latter outweighed US food contributions. This was the largest single item on the Japanese government budget. (A lot of that money went to Japanese citizens who are working for the Americans.) See: Cohn, "Remaking Japan" We did not contribute anything to their economy until the Korean War began, when the U.S. Army began making local purchases. This spurred the biggest economic boom in Japanese history up until then. But that hardly mattered. The big picture was, we brought democracy and stability, and we closed down the weapons manufacturing business and the military and the fascists who were strangling the nation. This gave the people some economic breathing room. When you give any group of people a reasonably peaceful, fair, orderly society to live in and they will always do fine. Middle Eastern societies would be much more peaceful and fair without oil money flooding through, and corrupting everything it touches, and enriching only a handful. A few years after the bane of oil is lifted, they will be far better off, if they choose to be. > As a result, we have had no more problems. Also, how do you plan > to deny terrorists money without making the entire region poor and pissed off? If the region is poor the terrorists will get no money. There are any number of criminals and terrorists in sub-Saharan Africa, but they are so poor they never leave those countries or bother us except with Advance Fee 914 Fraud. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 17:14:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F0E05c012429; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:14:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F0Dwd3012381; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:13:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:13:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E10EAE.3080100 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:00:46 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > When 9-11 happened, what depressed and horrified me the most was not the > actual losses of life and property, although they were bad enough. > > What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might > have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In > short, they > had every available benefit or pleasure western society offered - and > still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. If we cannot > count on these > sort of activities civilizing a person - or at least allowing them to > release whatever intense emotion dominates them - I'm not sure what hope > for humanity remains. > > What I fear most is the inevitable expansion of technology getting into > Muslim hands - I hesitate to say "radical Muslims" because it still is > not clear to me > that such radicalism is really radical among large numbers of Muslims. > At any rate, while cold fusion may not give us fissionable materials at > present, > We can't be sure that a simple procedure won't allow that kind of threat > in the future, by whatever physics uncovers. > > We, of the west, have a right to survive as individuals and as a > culture. I continue to hope that negotiation and good sense prevail > everywhere, especially > In the Middle East. Nevertheless, if these countries refuse to reform - > and technology of mass destruction falls into the hands of terrorists > with their blessings, > I would not flinch at their mass annihilation. Yes, a very simple solution. How would you do this? Actually, the use of an atom bomb by terrorists would be very irrational. What would they gain? The US would still exist and be as mad as Hell. Yes, we would hurt, but what advantage would this give the terrorist? The whole world would be after them, as they were after 911 until Bush blew the opportunity. They want power in their own region. The worst thing they can do is make us mad before we have destroyed our own economy by trying to fight them by conventional methods. Ed I am also horrified at > the numbers of people who ignore this - and eagerly seize upon schemes > of appeasement > In the present crisis. > > Let's all hope for 'free energy' and the peace that it might bring > about. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 17:39:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F0dEVx026583; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:39:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F0dAsP026551; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:37:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-reply-to: <007201c6bfe9$0d6f4900$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While we are on the subject... What is the value of a term like "Islamic-fascist" ? Was Nazis Germany ruled by Christian-fascists? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 18:20:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F1K3ET012939; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:20:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F1K2uu012882; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:20:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:20:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E121AD.3080704 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:21:49 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650@pop> In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650 pop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks rationally > and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. Good point, Philip. Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you note below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to be implemented by the individual rather than by the state. > > And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because > he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the > neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your > friends, you might think of murder." > > You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they murder > their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking certain > levels of sanity here. Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the right to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the child can not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can be killed. I don't recommend this approach, but it works better than our system seems to work in some cases. > > And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... > perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? > Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so they > resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... well you > get the picture... Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the state (courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the individual to take action. I have known occasions when I wished this method was used more often here. > > And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about > water? Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible. If you take my "water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by killing you. Ed > > P. > > > > > At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: > > >>>> I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>> encouraged to believe. >>> >>> >>> They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what >>> he has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most >>> popular man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named >>> their sons after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I >>> think they are misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the >>> militarists too. No doubt the majority of the country did, even >>> though it was pretty obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the >>> nation into Hell. >> >> >> I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain >> behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward >> sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these >> subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. >> However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for >> the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor >> because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, >> the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your >> friends, you might think of murder. >> >> Ed >> >>> >>>>> Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>>>> style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be >>>>> worth practically nothing today. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >>>> all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be >>>> done and if they were, other worse consequences would result. >>> >>> >>> Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If >>> FDR or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. >>> I mean immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar >>> emergency wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight >>> the war in Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of >>> SUVs. If this is really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their >>> responsibility to do such things. Wars are never won by >>> half-measures. The nation would follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: >>> "Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal >>> from us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so >>> speedily, assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. >>> It is not 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do >>> better?' The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy >>> present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise >>> -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and >>> act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our >>> country. >>> Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and >>> this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No >>> personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of >>> us. . . . We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know >>> how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the >>> responsibility. . . ." >>> http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>> All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it >>> did to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know >>> what must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>> And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never >>> sell the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 >>> and look where it got them. Probably more than any other people on >>> earth, we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. >>> As Edward Grey put it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. >>> Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it >>> can generate." >>> The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who >>> are not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army >>> volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when >>> they were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly >>> lost the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the >>> nomination. The people next in line who would have won if they had >>> lost would have led the nation into oblivion. >>> - Jed >>> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:04:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F23kg0032265; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:03:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F23jOX032253; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:03:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CTqlCE7gvRImXbi4f7gWzsWv7GpsgNy3gj2RWd8qXhNLDzqZRuiAlqlO94cireaR; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <3627055.1155607420108.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:03:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c6487c4e9d31b97df345b9a2893c576bdf3955f778df1f3fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: <3pA7OD.A.53H.BuS4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >While we are on the subject... > >What is the value of a term like "Islamic-fascist" ? Well, they consider themselves Islamic and we think they are fascist. I doubt they would object. Many of them are in sympathy with the Nazis, although not the Italian fascists as far as I know. >Was Nazis Germany ruled by Christian-fascists? No. Hitler was more or less atheist, I think. The closest thing to a specifically Christian movement similar the modern Islamic-fascist would be the Crusades, I suppose, or perhaps the conquistadores. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 17:41:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F0evGw027549; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:40:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F0eurF027520; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:40:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:40:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=X0sG5OuGOsISdr/h/MQvFgv8NMfQdtQFksO2FLkxyw17A23xwccBIfDU4tsNXLW3D+t5oB2Mb+SJ219+LOs35dJNStM6oYqGo2hhA1+sHkVZK0GFue/hIXngKz8uNajUZvZNf14oy9b+zzj2/vJ56Hmy68IGcrRL3JX5CUfZPxE= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:33:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks rationally and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your friends, you might think of murder." You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they murder their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking certain levels of sanity here. And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so they resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... well you get the picture... And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about water? P. At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >>>I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>encouraged to believe. >> >>They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what he >>has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most popular >>man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named their sons >>after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I think they are >>misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the militarists too. >>No doubt the majority of the country did, even though it was pretty >>obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the nation into Hell. > >I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain >behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward >sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these >subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. However, I >don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for the >movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because he >thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the neighbor >takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your friends, you >might think of murder. > >Ed >> >>>>Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II style >>>>effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth >>>>practically nothing today. >>> >>> >>>Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would all >>>be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be done and >>>if they were, other worse consequences would result. >> >>Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If FDR >>or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. I mean >>immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar emergency >>wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight the war in >>Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of SUVs. If this is >>really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their responsibility to do such >>things. Wars are never won by half-measures. The nation would follow I am >>sure. As Lincoln put it: >>"Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal from >>us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so speedily, >>assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. It is not >>'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do better?' The dogmas >>of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is >>piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As our >>case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall >>ourselves, and then we shall save our country. >>Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this >>administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal >>significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. . . . We >>know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We >>-- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. . . ." >>http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it did >>to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know what >>must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never sell >>the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 and look >>where it got them. Probably more than any other people on earth, we are >>capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. As Edward Grey put >>it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is >>lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." >>The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who are >>not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army volunteers. >>In the past, such people have often stepped forth when they were needed. >>But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly lost the election and >>FDR had great difficulty securing the nomination. The people next in line >>who would have won if they had lost would have led the nation into oblivion. >>- Jed >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:34:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F2XuCD012892; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:33:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F2XsXQ012871; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:33:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:33:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:32:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <44E130DC.2060004 yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Lee Smolin on "A Crisis in Fundamental Physics" Status: O X-Status: A recent article by Lee Smolin entitled "A Crisis in Fundamental Physics" http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnbound.asp?UpdateID=41 Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:36:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F2a6JH014118; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F2a36n014085; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c6c013$4a944360$6c037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: OT How to deal with terrorism Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:34:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BFE9.6137A640"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BFE9.6137A640 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BFE9.61392CE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BFE9.61392CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Been an interesting series of comments but I see no consensus. At the fundamental base of humanity, very few have an inherent evil = within. I have met very few that were evil to the core without any = redemptive value.=20 There seems to be an age , possibly around 6-9 years, where certain = patterns of behavior emerge and a set of values begin to form that = influence behavior into adulthood. It is mostly impossible to change a = persons mind or behavior once set.since only God can change the heart. Different religious cultural practice and parental teaching and = discipline seems to identify with various cultures. Muslim culture = clashes with Judeo-Christian culture and has for some 1400 years. Isreal = understands there can be no peaceful resolution so their method of = survival is eye for an eye. The Christian method is dependence upon God. = We could be seeing the same situation that occurred in the time of the = kings of Isreal where 2 Chronicles chapter 20 identifies battles that = belong to God. =20 The USA is not only a paradox, it is going through another phase of = melding of cultures of which the outcome we cannot predict. Dynamic changes underway have unintended consequences where individual = freedoms are further reduced both by the well intended and the schemes = of men. Human nature is influenced by jealousy, vanity, lust and greed which = leads to no end of mischief with never ending variations producing one = of the most profitable and intriguing industries on the US scene... = lawyering. and the military industrial complex so profitable to the = Carylile and Blackstone group. I recall reading something written by DesCartes after his visit to the = holy lands regarding his unbelief that the phophecy of the eventual = restoration of Isreal couldn't happen because no one lived in the desert = region between the western sea and the Persian gulf except a few = thousand nomadic herdsmen. Yet the Zionist movement sent settlers to = form Kibbutz along the Gaza area in the 1880's They secured = authorization from the Turkish Sultan and purchased ( emphasis on bought = , not took) the land from the tribesmen on which they drilled water = wells and created irrigated farming co-ops ( communes) to sell produce = to Europe. After thses farms were established, their next step was to = form the Hebrew University to begin the training of a civil service = cadre for governing. This long range planning resulted in what Isaiah = predicted and a nation was created in "one day" in 1948. There has not = been one day of peace since that day. There has not been a day since = 1948 that Isreal has not been mentioned in the world news. Phophecy = states that every nation that comes against Isreal will injure = themselves. A view of the pics of the damage wrought against Lebanon = seems to confirm that prophecy. Maybe the Mexicans had it right in the old days.. when two people = couldn't agree, they tied their hands together with rawhide , handed = each a sharp machete and advised them to settle the matter between = themselves. Oh! were the disputes of the world that easy to resolve. But .come to = think of it.. trouble usually starts with just two. If the two could be = culled out before they were able to hire somebody else to fight their = battles. everyone else would be left in peace to chase women, drink = whiskey and raise hell. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BFE9.61392CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Been an interesting series of comments but I see no = consensus.
 
At the fundamental base of humanity, very few have an inherent evil = within.=20 I have met very  few that were evil to the core without any = redemptive=20 value.
There seems to be an age , possibly around 6-9 years, where certain = patterns of behavior emerge and a set of values begin to form that = influence=20 behavior into adulthood.  It is mostly impossible to change a = persons mind=20 or behavior once set.since only God can change the heart.
Different religious cultural practice and parental teaching and = discipline=20 seems to identify with various cultures. Muslim culture = clashes with=20 Judeo-Christian culture and has for some 1400 years. Isreal understands = there=20 can be no peaceful resolution so their method of survival is eye for an = eye. The=20 Christian method is dependence upon God. We could be seeing the=20 same situation that occurred in the time of the kings of Isreal = where 2=20 Chronicles chapter 20  identifies battles that belong to God. =  
 
The USA is not only a paradox, it is going through another phase of = melding=20 of cultures of which the outcome we cannot predict.
Dynamic changes underway have unintended consequences where = individual=20 freedoms are further reduced both by the well intended and the = schemes=20 of men.
 
Human nature is influenced by jealousy, vanity, lust and = greed=20 which leads to no end of mischief with never ending variations = producing=20 one of the most profitable and intriguing industries on the US scene...=20 lawyering. and the military industrial complex so profitable to the = Carylile and=20 Blackstone group.
 
I recall reading something written by DesCartes after his visit to = the holy=20 lands regarding his unbelief that the phophecy of the eventual = restoration of=20 Isreal couldn't happen because no one lived in the desert region between = the=20 western sea and the Persian gulf except a few thousand nomadic herdsmen. = Yet the=20 Zionist movement sent settlers to form Kibbutz along the Gaza area in = the=20 1880's They secured authorization from the Turkish Sultan and = purchased (=20 emphasis on bought , not took) the land from the tribesmen on which = they=20 drilled water wells and created irrigated farming co-ops ( = communes) to=20 sell produce to Europe. After thses farms were established, their = next step=20 was to form the Hebrew University to begin the training of a civil = service cadre=20 for governing. This long range planning resulted in what Isaiah = predicted and a=20 nation was created in "one day" in 1948. There has not been one day of = peace=20 since that day. There has not been a day since 1948 that Isreal has not = been=20 mentioned in the world news. Phophecy states that every nation that = comes=20 against Isreal will injure themselves. A view of the pics of the damage = wrought=20 against Lebanon seems to confirm that prophecy.
 
Maybe the Mexicans had it right in the old days.. when two people = couldn't=20 agree, they tied their hands together with rawhide , handed each a sharp = machete=20 and advised them to settle the matter between themselves.
Oh! were the disputes of the world that easy to resolve.  But = .come to=20 think of it.. trouble usually starts with just two. If the = two could be=20 culled out before they were able to hire somebody else to fight their = battles.=20 everyone else would be left in peace to chase women, drink whiskey and = raise=20 hell.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C6BFE9.61392CE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BFE9.6137A640 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c6c013$49be2eb0$6c037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C6BFE9.6137A640-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:41:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F2fSRB017135; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:41:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F2fQWf017109; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:41:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:41:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:39:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-reply-to: <3627055.1155607420108.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> While we are on the subject... >> >> What is the value of a term like "Islamic-fascist" ? > > Well, they consider themselves Islamic and we think they are fascist. I doubt > they would object. Many of them are in sympathy with the Nazis, although not > the Italian fascists as far as I know. Who is "they"? All of Islam? > >> Was Nazis Germany ruled by Christian-fascists? > > No. Hitler was more or less atheist, I think. The closest thing to a > specifically Christian movement similar the modern Islamic-fascist would be > the Crusades, I suppose, or perhaps the conquistadores. > > - Jed Geneva under Calvin. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:36:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F2ai55014582; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F2agwE014556; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:36:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=EZRXsCD6YiMSUkbRlq3Vk7dPSQ9UCXW3voDTiAShyLV15V8a7VNai7vdIIPldAFiwYjUr13k7Ey8QcLrh2GbBTkIYlL1vzphXc2tVxvs7l/qsXbp4ZD3AzzCCXQjSggVUVfJfE4hbpztC1ACawRpzTcjXKdNWrwC4V+oosYgRu0= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:35:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E121AD.3080704 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650 pop> <44E121AD.3080704 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Good points Ed. As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our "freedom" (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like to call them "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women than men). In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!! As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself. Briefly, I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated in Scotland and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their own "water" as a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to create the "water" they now have. But some (many) people are envious of this water - without regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took to create it - and would like to either steal it or spill it on the ground just to satisfy this envy. P. At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > >>Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks rationally >>and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. > >Good point, Philip. Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are >rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you note >below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to be >implemented by the individual rather than by the state. >>And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because he >>thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the neighbor >>takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your friends, you >>might think of murder." >>You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they murder >>their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking certain >>levels of sanity here. > >Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the right >to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the child can >not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can be killed. I >don't recommend this approach, but it works better than our system seems >to work in some cases. >>And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... >>perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? >>Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so they >>resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... well you >>get the picture... > >Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the state >(courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the individual to >take action. I have known occasions when I wished this method was used >more often here. >>And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about water? > >Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible. If you take my >"water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by killing you. > >Ed >>P. >> >> >>At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>>>I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>>>encouraged to believe. >>>> >>>> >>>>They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what he >>>>has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most popular >>>>man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named their sons >>>>after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I think they are >>>>misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the militarists too. >>>>No doubt the majority of the country did, even though it was pretty >>>>obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the nation into Hell. >>> >>> >>>I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain >>>behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward >>>sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these >>>subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. >>>However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for >>>the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because >>>he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the >>>neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your >>>friends, you might think of murder. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>> >>>>>>Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>>>>>style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth >>>>>>practically nothing today. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >>>>>all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be done >>>>>and if they were, other worse consequences would result. >>>> >>>> >>>>Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If FDR >>>>or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. I mean >>>>immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar emergency >>>>wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight the war in >>>>Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of SUVs. If this is >>>>really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their responsibility to do >>>>such things. Wars are never won by half-measures. The nation would >>>>follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: >>>>"Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal from >>>>us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so speedily, >>>>assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. It is not >>>>'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do better?' The dogmas >>>>of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion >>>>is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. >>>>As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must >>>>disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country. >>>>Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this >>>>administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal >>>>significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. . . . >>>>We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save >>>>it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. . . ." >>>>http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>>>All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it did >>>>to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know what >>>>must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>>>And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never sell >>>>the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 and >>>>look where it got them. Probably more than any other people on earth, >>>>we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. As Edward >>>>Grey put it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the >>>>fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." >>>>The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who are >>>>not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army >>>>volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when they >>>>were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly lost >>>>the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the nomination. The >>>>people next in line who would have won if they had lost would have led >>>>the nation into oblivion. >>>>- Jed >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 19:48:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F2mMoC020070; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:48:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F2mLva020055; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:48:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:48:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:46:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500 pop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh fuddle duddle... The notion of a self-made nation is an ego trip like the self-made man. Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > Good points Ed. > > As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of > self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form > are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our "freedom" > (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like to call them > "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women than men). > > In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is > concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!! > > As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself. Briefly, > I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated in Scotland > and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their own "water" as > a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to create the "water" > they now have. But some (many) people are envious of this water - without > regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took to create it - and would > like to either steal it or spill it on the ground just to satisfy this envy. > > P. > > > > At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: > > >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks rationally >>> and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. >> >> Good point, Philip. Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are >> rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you note >> below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to be >> implemented by the individual rather than by the state. >>> And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because he >>> thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the neighbor >>> takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your friends, you >>> might think of murder." >>> You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they murder >>> their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking certain >>> levels of sanity here. >> >> Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the right >> to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the child can >> not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can be killed. I >> don't recommend this approach, but it works better than our system seems >> to work in some cases. >>> And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... >>> perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? >>> Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so they >>> resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... well you >>> get the picture... >> >> Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the state >> (courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the individual to >> take action. I have known occasions when I wished this method was used >> more often here. >>> And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about water? >> >> Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible. If you take my >> "water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by killing >> you. >> >> Ed >>> P. >>> >>> >>> At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >>> >>>>>> I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>>>> encouraged to believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what he >>>>> has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most popular >>>>> man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named their sons >>>>> after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I think they are >>>>> misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the militarists too. >>>>> No doubt the majority of the country did, even though it was pretty >>>>> obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the nation into Hell. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain >>>> behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward >>>> sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these >>>> subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. >>>> However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for >>>> the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because >>>> he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the >>>> neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your >>>> friends, you might think of murder. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>>>>>> style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be worth >>>>>>> practically nothing today. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >>>>>> all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be done >>>>>> and if they were, other worse consequences would result. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If FDR >>>>> or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. I mean >>>>> immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar emergency >>>>> wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight the war in >>>>> Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of SUVs. If this is >>>>> really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their responsibility to do >>>>> such things. Wars are never won by half-measures. The nation would >>>>> follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: >>>>> "Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal from >>>>> us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so speedily, >>>>> assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. It is not >>>>> 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do better?' The dogmas >>>>> of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion >>>>> is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. >>>>> As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must >>>>> disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country. >>>>> Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this >>>>> administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal >>>>> significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. . . . >>>>> We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save >>>>> it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. . . >>>>> ." >>>>> http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>>>> All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it did >>>>> to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know what >>>>> must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>>>> And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never sell >>>>> the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 and >>>>> look where it got them. Probably more than any other people on earth, >>>>> we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. As Edward >>>>> Grey put it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the >>>>> fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." >>>>> The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who are >>>>> not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army >>>>> volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when they >>>>> were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly lost >>>>> the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the nomination. The >>>>> people next in line who would have won if they had lost would have led >>>>> the nation into oblivion. >>>>> - Jed >>> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 20:18:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F3IAhP031998; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:18:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F3I9Hv031986; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:18:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:18:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:16:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-reply-to: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1ERk4D.A.uzH.xzT4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: > When 9-11 happened, what depressed and horrified me the most was not the > actual losses of life and property, although they were bad enough. > > What horrified me most was hearing that the Muslim men involved might > have attended college, gone to strip clubs and consumed alcohol. In > short, they > had every available benefit or pleasure western society offered - and > still dedicated themselves to mass murder and suicide. If we cannot > count on these > sort of activities civilizing a person - or at least allowing them to > release whatever intense emotion dominates them - I'm not sure what hope > for humanity remains. Disaffected young men and women appear in every society. > What I fear most is the inevitable expansion of technology getting into > Muslim hands - I hesitate to say "radical Muslims" because it still is > not clear to me > that such radicalism is really radical among large numbers of Muslims. > At any rate, while cold fusion may not give us fissionable materials at > present, > We can't be sure that a simple procedure won't allow that kind of threat > in the future, by whatever physics uncovers. > We, of the west, have a right to survive as individuals and as a > culture. I continue to hope that negotiation and good sense prevail > everywhere, especially > In the Middle East. As a gesture of good faith one could exchange a couple of ICBMs for more business opportunities. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 20:26:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F3Q5oS003257; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:26:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F3Q4YI003243; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:26:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:26:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Second Installment (Verne-vision-quest) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:25:57 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060812205120.40309.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3itsd2tk3luijc5kosmuqn5lp818dssjpf@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:25:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7F3PvaY003193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:29:34 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 8/12/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> NaCl might not be the best choice. Apart from the fact that it >> tends to create corrosive byproducts, and toxic chlorine gas, it >> doesn't contain any Mills catalysts. Better choices would be >> K2CO3, KOH, LiOH. > >KOH is less corrosive than NaCl??? > >Terry Ok, ya got me! 8-)}}. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 20:32:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F3WJu0006014; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:32:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F3WINj005980; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:32:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:32:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:32:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:32:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7F3WEUC005946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:39 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 8/12/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:> > >> According to Tesla, the batteries are good for 500 recharges. If >> you recharge the batteries every night, they are going to need >> replacing after 18 months(?). If you don't recharge every night, >> then you need to keep a careful eye on the charge level so that >> you know which night you *do* need to recharge. > >Li-ion partial charges are just that. Li-ion batteries do not suffer >from the "memory effect" of NiCad; so, 1000 half-charges is equivalent >to 500 full-charges. So, at 250 miles per charge, the Tesla should >get over 100,000 miles per battery life regardless of how many times >it is actually "plugged-in". > >Or so I am told. > >Terry In that case, I'm surprised that they don't simply specify battery life in miles. Why pay any attention to the number of recharges at all? (BTW now that you mention it, I had heard the Li-ion batteries have no memory effect). However something in the battery must deteriorate with use? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 20:34:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F3YPE5006849; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:34:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F3YJgE006803; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:34:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:34:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Jl1JsEZaGCJlbLc+uIHT+3kUcc3yvwEpdbHdb1kGX5Dfda6u6zGpI7G5FgKk8DzP; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <19894839.1155612847103.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c6487c4e9d31b97df9043902414cdbc3abbe329f073e03f93350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder writes: >> Well, they consider themselves Islamic and we think they are fascist. I doubt >> they would object. Many of them are in sympathy with the Nazis, although not >> the Italian fascists as far as I know. > >Who is "they"? >All of Islam? Of course not. Only the ones who have it in for us, and are training in camps, making bombs and so on. They have many supporters among other Moslems, but I doubt many people would join them. >> The closest thing to a >> specifically Christian movement similar the modern Islamic-fascist would be >> the Crusades, I suppose, or perhaps the conquistadores. >> >> - Jed > >Geneva under Calvin. Good example. I am sure there are others, in varying degrees. Salem, MA during the witch hunt, for example. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 20:51:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F3pSVd016058; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:51:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F3pRju016045; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:51:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:51:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:51:19 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:51:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7F3pKba015990 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:27:48 -0400: Hi, [snip] >>In order to legitimize their special brew of hatred these fascists and >>extremist have hijacked the local religion. Any religion will do. It's just >>that typically it's the one >they grew up in that that gets hijacked in >>order to legitimize the ne! >> ed to act on their predilections. > >I agree. But this is neither here nor there. It does not matter that Jews or >Christians or Zoroastrians *could* do these things. The cold, hard facts are >that they are *not* doing these things, but radical Muslims are. Wrong. Both Jews and Christians *are* doing these things too. The only difference is that the Muslims don't have expensive airplanes to drop their bombs from, and they don't kill as many people. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 21:07:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F47bmG022464; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:07:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F47ak2022446; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:07:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:07:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:06:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-reply-to: <19894839.1155612847103.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder writes: > >>> Well, they consider themselves Islamic and we think they are fascist. I >>> doubt >>> they would object. Many of them are in sympathy with the Nazis, although not >>> the Italian fascists as far as I know. >> >> Who is "they"? >> All of Islam? > > Of course not. Only the ones who have it in for us, and are training in camps, > making bombs and so on. They have many supporters among other Moslems, but I > doubt many people would join them. My point is that we should refer to such fascist interests with more precision. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 21:23:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F4NJqd028737; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:23:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F4NGBN028704; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:23:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:23:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:21:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <006c01c6bdb6$82fca210$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq conflict > is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the > world is that we have no real taste for Empire. The US out-sourced the task of running an empire. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 22:17:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F5Gi8w018335; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:16:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F5Ghvp018314; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:16:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:16:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:15:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/11/06, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> We need to use our creativity to explore another way. > > That's easy: > > 1) Make energy free. > 2) Eliminate religion. > > It's only the path which is in question. > > Terry > Make free energy a part of every religion? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 22:36:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F5anoH026479; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:36:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F5alGM026453; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:36:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:36:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:36:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:36:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7F5aaUL026242 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:22:41 -0400: Hi, [snip] >>What makes these people so angry they would give this up and want to kill us? > >Actually, we have little to do with it. It is a fight within these >countries, which is spilling over to us. Our administrations going >back to FDR have contributed by helping these governments crush >opposition, and of course we are the ones who hand over billions of >dollars, and make SUVs to drive up the cost of oil. First you say "we have little to do with it", then in the next breath you say "Our administrations going back to FDR have contributed by helping these governments crush opposition". IOW the US administration has propped up corrupt puppet governments that ensured an ongoing flow of cheap oil. The man on the street in these countries may be poor, but he is not stupid. He sees this just as well as you do. No wonder he is pissed off. If you want to know what to do about terrorism, it's simple. 1) Get rid of your own corrupt government. 2) Stop supporting corrupt puppet governments elsewhere. 3) Let the people in those nations share in the wealth beneath their feet, iso forcing them to give it to the US in exchange for paper that the US prints (this goes for Nigeria and various other poor Nations with oil around the globe too). 4) Give up some of the wealthy life style you enjoy, so that others may share in it, by paying more for the oil you get. (and if you did as I suggest here, the price would go up, because the value of the $ would drop). That is what this struggle is really about. Equality and fairness. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 22:48:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7F5m9bm030462; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:48:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7F5m8Ea030449; Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:48:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:48:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=VI0tFKfv16DiiuHSBXSFmkvz8UJNsCQYxE7TUkiwjFtosQuUhnDY6zFoCw72DHi3Wer4YdTwBQ5Wb1edMho7jQwM0gwjFsb2d066w0PFlROM/lEfLsu4Kbo3giVO8R4LIJevw77aO7sk3M9oT8iNHumzdsETBYPIH/uNH8XmXcw= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:48:06 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_198534_14519966.1155620886634" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_198534_14519966.1155620886634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline lets also recall where osama bin laden got his training in guerilla warfare. yup, us, when we supported him in afghanistan to drive out russia. On 8/14/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:22:41 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >>What makes these people so angry they would give this up and want to > kill us? > > > >Actually, we have little to do with it. It is a fight within these > >countries, which is spilling over to us. Our administrations going > >back to FDR have contributed by helping these governments crush > >opposition, and of course we are the ones who hand over billions of > >dollars, and make SUVs to drive up the cost of oil. > > First you say "we have little to do with it", then in the next > breath you say "Our administrations going back to FDR have > contributed by helping these governments crush opposition". > > IOW the US administration has propped up corrupt puppet > governments that ensured an ongoing flow of cheap oil. > > The man on the street in these countries may be poor, but he is > not stupid. He sees this just as well as you do. No wonder he is > pissed off. > > If you want to know what to do about terrorism, it's simple. > > 1) Get rid of your own corrupt government. > 2) Stop supporting corrupt puppet governments elsewhere. > 3) Let the people in those nations share in the wealth beneath > their feet, iso forcing them to give it to the US in exchange for > paper that the US prints (this goes for Nigeria and various other > poor Nations with oil around the globe too). > 4) Give up some of the wealthy life style you enjoy, so that > others may share in it, by paying more for the oil you get. > (and if you did as I suggest here, the price would go up, because > the value of the $ would drop). > > That is what this struggle is really about. Equality and fairness. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_198534_14519966.1155620886634 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline lets also recall where osama bin laden got his training in guerilla warfare.  yup, us, when we supported him in afghanistan to drive out russia. 

On 8/14/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:22:41
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>>What makes these people so angry they would give this up and want to kill us?
>
>Actually, we have little to do with it. It is a fight within these
>countries, which is spilling over to us. Our administrations going
>back to FDR have contributed by helping these governments crush
>opposition, and of course we are the ones who hand over billions of
>dollars, and make SUVs to drive up the cost of oil.

First you say "we have little to do with it", then in the next
breath you say "Our administrations going back to FDR have
contributed by helping these governments crush opposition".

IOW the US administration has propped up corrupt puppet
governments that ensured an ongoing flow of cheap oil.

The man on the street in these countries may be poor, but he is
not stupid. He sees this just as well as you do. No wonder he is
pissed off.

If you want to know what to do about terrorism, it's simple.

1) Get rid of your own corrupt government.
2) Stop supporting corrupt puppet governments elsewhere.
3) Let the people in those nations share in the wealth beneath
their feet, iso forcing them to give it to the US in exchange for
paper that the US prints (this goes for Nigeria and various other
poor Nations with oil around the globe too).
4) Give up some of the wealthy life style you enjoy, so that
others may share in it, by paying more for the oil you get.
(and if you did as I suggest here, the price would go up, because
the value of the $ would drop).

That is what this struggle is really about. Equality and fairness.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.




--
That which yields isn't always weak. ------=_Part_198534_14519966.1155620886634-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 03:33:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FAX0Qd019625; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:33:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FAWw5H019608; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:32:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:32:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OHRN2Hmeux97+Oe+MWGnDWeG4o9KyeRJ+nbfvea3JTguFuzTehkUOL9qJXYCIoX9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068215103230571 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:32:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c51de5f0bd070bc0973733ff8643d17c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since Jones is smitten with HTP/Gold Fever. :-) Heap Leach extraction of gold from ore requires aeration (spray) of the water-cyanide leachant to form H2O2. Similar Anodic and Cathodic reactions can occur in an electrolysis cell without the cyanide,but, possibly enhanced by dissolved metal (M +) ions. http://www.metlabsolutions.com/business.html ALet's explore exactly how cyanide dissolves gold: The cyanidation process of metals is a heterogeneous reaction (i.e. a reaction driven by unrelated or unlike components) and is a corrosion process. The reaction for this process is: 2 Au + 4 KCN + O2 + 2 H2O ===> 2 KAu (CN)2 + 2 KOH + H2O2 The metal in question (Au) dissolves by two processes occurring simultaneously on its surface. At one end of the metal, the cathodic zone, oxygen takes up electrons and undergoes a reduction reaction. At the other end of the metal, the anodic zone, the metal gives up electrons and undergoes an oxidation reaction. The anodic and cathodic reactions can be expressed as: Anodic: (1) Au ===> Au+ + e- (2) Au+ + 2 CN- ===> Au (CN)2 Cathodic: (1) O2 + 2 H2O + 2 e- ===> H2O2 + 2 OH- In an electrolysis cell: At the cathode: Dissolved O2 gas + 2 H2O + 2 e- ----> H2O2aq + 2 OH- At the Anode 2 OH- - 2 e- -----> H2O2aq Provided that the cell is kept at low temperature. OTOH, the presence of CO2/H2CO3 will provide H+/H3O+ cations and HCO3- and CO3= anions which will accept electrons at the cathode and donate electrons at the anode respectively, hence setting up an ancillary CO2-H2O cycle. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Since Jones is smitten with HTP/Gold Fever.  :-)
 
Heap Leach extraction of gold from ore requires aeration (spray)
of the water-cyanide leachant to form H2O2.
 
Similar  Anodic and Cathodic reactions can occur in an electrolysis cell
without the cyanide,but, possibly enhanced by dissolved metal (M +) ions.
 
 
A

Let's explore exactly how cyanide dissolves gold:

The cyanidation process of metals is a heterogeneous reaction (i.e. a reaction driven by unrelated or unlike components) and is a corrosion process.

The reaction for this process is: 2 Au + 4 KCN + O2 + 2 H2O ===> 2 KAu (CN)2 + 2 KOH + H2O2

The metal in question (Au) dissolves by two processes occurring simultaneously on its surface. At one end of the metal, the cathodic zone, oxygen takes up electrons and undergoes a reduction reaction. At the other end of the metal, the anodic zone, the metal gives up electrons and undergoes an oxidation reaction.  The anodic and cathodic reactions can be expressed as:

Anodic:
(1) Au ===> Au+ + e-
(2) Au+ + 2 CN- ===> Au (CN)2
 
Cathodic:
(1) O2 + 2 H2O + 2 e- ===> H2O2 + 2 OH-

In an electrolysis cell:
 
At the cathode:
 
Dissolved O2 gas + 2 H2O + 2 e-   ----> H2O2aq + 2 OH-
 
At the Anode 2 OH-   - 2 e-  ----->  H2O2aq
 
Provided that the cell is kept at low temperature.
 
OTOH, the presence of CO2/H2CO3 will provide H+/H3O+ cations and
HCO3- and CO3= anions which will accept electrons at the cathode and
donate electrons at the anode respectively, hence setting up an ancillary CO2-H2O cycle.
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 04:44:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FBij7T021287; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:44:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FBig0s021248; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:44:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c6c060$2e3bc420$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814135618.0403e248@mindspring.com> <007201c6bfe9$0d6f4900$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814174229.0404c250@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:44:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote:- <> The centuries old "troubles" stopped because there was recently a power sharing agreement between the British (Northern Ireland) and Southern Ireland governments. The conflict was because the Brits originally "colonised by force" Northern Ireland. The Sinn Fein (Republican movement, of which the IRA were the armed soldiers/ terrorists, wanted the whole of Ireland back under their control - most of the Northern Irish Protestant majority wanted to stay loyal to Britain. The Protestants were the descendants of the invaders but, as Northern Ireland was their home, they didn't want to give it up. Impasse? The Muslim terrorists are no more evil than the pilot of the Enola Gay was evil. Terrorists are usually created by a large organised force ( in this case the USA) that will not listen or care when people object to what it is doing. If those with the greatest power will not listen, or believe that they have a divine right to ride rough shod over others in the pursuit of their objectives, whether voted on democratically or not, there is NO CHOICE for the abused other than to adopt the tactics of "asymmetric threat" Until the ordinary American realises that they have encouraged their government to push around and manipulate less powerful countries for the benefit of the USA's extreme and pathological greed AND TELLS THEM TO STOP, there will be no end to it. Philip Winestone wrote:- <> Don't believe this evil piece of propaganda put about by Bush, Cheney et al to fool the simple minded that you have "God on your side". In a large proportion of the thinking peoples of the world, the USA is despised for its overbearing, cheap, decadent and greedy culture. YOU TOOK TOO MUCH "WATER" at the expense of others. That is why you are hated. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 05:09:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FC9bov001678; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:09:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FC9adX001655; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:09:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:09:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M0G1hqa+zUvrvEAm26VJ1nRbUwXFZ1JNLJNPKlUKt+GFEds1bWF+ZwId/hhcxgxXayF8W67eQY8/iMjOGFzaC3S2O2z9jejfytEe/H54bJSp+0yGY2XKASp1X2jpN1guwwrj47S1OvmIvEHy6wKPxGXqvi8WuUv5s1y5reR6vH0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:09:35 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Lee Smolin on "A Crisis in Fundamental Physics" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44E130DC.2060004 yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6E382.A.vZ._lb4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/14/06, Harry Veeder wrote: > > A recent article by Lee Smolin entitled "A Crisis > in Fundamental Physics" > > http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnbound.asp?UpdateID=41 Excellent article Harry. I believe it is most certainly on topic. This is the very attitude which drove Hotson from studying physics: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf The Hotson "family business" is English literature. Mr. Hotson's father and uncle had Harvard Ph.D.s in the subject, and his late uncle was a famous Shakespeare scholar. Mr. Hotson, however, always intended a career in physics. Unfortunately, he could not resist asking awkward questions. His professors taught that conservation of mass-energy is the never-violated, rock-solid foundation of all physics. In "pair production" a photon of at least 1.022 MeV "creates" an electron-positron pair, each with 0.511 MeV of rest energy, with any excess being the momentum of the "created" pair. So supposedly the conservation books balance. But the "created" electron and positron both have spin (angular momentum) energy of h/4p. By any assumption as to the size of electron or positron, this is far more energy than that supplied by the photon at "creation." "Isn't angular momentum energy?" he asked a professor. "Of course it is. This half-integer spin angular momentum is the energy needed by the electron to set up a stable standing wave around the proton. Thus it is responsible for the Pauli exclusion principle, hence for the extension and stability of all matter. You could say it is the sole cause of the periodic table of elements." "Then where does all this energy come from? How can the 'created' electron have something like sixteen times more energy than the photon that supposedly 'created' it? Isn't this a huge violation of your never-violated rock-solid foundation of all physics?" "We regard spin angular momentum as an 'inherent property' of electron and positron, not as a violation of conservation." "But if it's real energy, where does it come from? Does the Energy Fairy step in and proclaim a miracle every time 'creation' is invoked, billions of times a second? How does this fit your never-violated conservation?" "'Inherent property' means we don't talk about it, and you won't either if you want to pass this course." Well, this answer sounded to him like the Stephen Leacock aphorism: "'Shut up,' he explained." Later Mr. Hotson was taken aside and told that his "attitude" was disrupting the class, and that further, with his "attitude," there was no chance in hell of his completing a graduate program in physics, so "save your money." He ended up at the Sorbonne studying French literature, and later became a professional land surveyor. However, he has retained a lifelong interest in the "awkward questions" of physics, and with Dirac's Equation has found some answers. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 05:13:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FCCxvb004552; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:12:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FCCuhm004518; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:12:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:12:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gLJkS/MqATBSbrQZ5p02LpqeqlzLfJ0bmBWQvaiQaYiUe5mXlMFeKG76dUnt2rDvojLfcF56sGCi6J0brRxcUplag7kyZbK1vrWpSqOAwBmT/US2k4CHf8bSHCrJKyIP1I/iSaU+IZeRtPqaHHMGbNsNIqgag7rtZs9AyWlTBTU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:12:54 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <493517355.1155307742581.JavaMail.root fepweb08> Resent-Message-ID: <5PqxMC.A.bGB.Hpb4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/14/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In that case, I'm surprised that they don't simply specify battery > life in miles. Why pay any attention to the number of recharges at > all? (BTW now that you mention it, I had heard the Li-ion > batteries have no memory effect). However something in the battery > must deteriorate with use? If I understand it correctly, the Li eventually forms a neutralizing crystal structure which renders the battery unchargeable. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 07:10:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FEA28h005249; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:10:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FE9mMs005093; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:09:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:09:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:09:44 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297ECC1 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Thread-Index: Aca//9wG0/LzOa0WQxi3NFFnibJ1MwAbxEUQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2006 14:09:46.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[7651A7C0:01C6C074] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7FE9j3w005057 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is disturbing also are the bogus assumptions that pass for thinking about terrorism. Such as: Appeasement: the biggest one of all. Europeans love appeasement. Ignore the terror, pay them off, hope for a better tomorrow. If that doesn't work, so what? If your art and literature is swelled with nihilism - and your baby cribs are collectively empty , remember that life has no meaning, anyway. Slash your military and pontificate to the rest of the world like old men on a porch, watching the world go by. Give Gaza back and things will improve. Retreat from Lebanon and things will get better. Accept blame for terror and accept Muslim victimhood and things will get better. Guess what? The more you do the above, the more effective terror tactics become! Imputing "fairness" to others: related to the above, what is "fair"? What was "fair" to Hitler? More importantly, what is "fair" to radical Muslims who see it as their God-given right to impose their religious law on you? And that "Dhimmi-hood" ( you PAY them as cursed infidels) is fair also? It is this "fairness" that causes European Muslim leaders to tell their flocks that welfare payments are owed to them, because the government is non Islamic and non believers owe them money, thereby. It is this "fairness" that causes Palestinian leaders to announce that they will target every city in Israel with rockets after Israel withdraws from the West Bank. And finally, the biggest human fallacy in social relations: Never, never, never understand that being "positive" to a spoiled child makes everything worse, Once the initial capitulation wears off. I'm sorry you're angry Mr. Hitler. If you promise to be good, we'll give you the Sudetenland? All right, all right, if you stop the tantrum , we'll let you have Czechoslovakia, too. Please be good, please, please. Treating these childish nations like adults is long overdue. Set up reasonable negotiations and don't let them weasel out of them. The two state solution In Palestine is a good start. If a Palestinian state ever emerges, it will exist purely because Israel exists. Or has Palestine not been dominated by every Passing empire across thousands of years of history? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 08:29:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FFSWXA025665; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:28:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FFST0B025622; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:28:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:28:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:28:16 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297EE3C CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Thread-Index: Aca/6SQwIBkG+E89Sy2SPZotPgYzdQAk97Ig From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2006 15:28:17.0339 (UTC) FILETIME=[6E7838B0:01C6C07F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7FFSGTe025491 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Comparing the Japanese to modern suicide warriors brings little satisfaction. Their suicide was in defense of a nation with borders, not some vague fanatical notion Of a Muslim people. Thus, defeat or victory was easy to define. In addition, the suicide spirit was cultivated in wartime Japan, amidst all the isolation that entailed. This is a far cry from wandering thru airports, western colleges, strip bars, and various part time jobs in western businesses. A few officers like Yamamoto had extensive exposure to western lands and culture. His experience therefore made him more realistic - and somewhat pessimistic - about war with the US. He knew they needed a quick victory - something very different from the twisted schemes of Muslim fanatics. Shinto was the religion of a single nation and not something easily exported by missionaries, unlike the aggressive claims of Islam. The recent attempted bombings in London did not manifest a great deal of invested money - plane tickets and peroxide bombs are the weapons of the poor. Pakistan is not an oil power. On the other hand, loss of oil money might dry up some Wahabist schools. I also see some value in the current Shia/Sunni divide coming out in the open. It may be best to keep them divided and killing each other, if rationality cannot otherwise prevail. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 03:48:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FAluK3026999; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:47:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FAls2T026980; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:47:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:47:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=k1/0NtnLXI+krmEB0yfzZwlGOJljNKkNSPC1g9UHLKTm7U/uWLeXY2AA92G7emFmPvgPYpCrZCnso2ERAzN2lwyH9ukmne5/Zra4UBe3zdmvtTJIYoYcPeeYQJR+9aGb4Ltvyv2ZKAWXJP55JnWqX3+Z7fUDmwlmRwckMJ5OdFs= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060815064042.01e68a68 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 06:46:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: OT How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <001001c6c013$4a944360$6c037841 xptower> References: <001001c6c013$4a944360$6c037841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Richard, I always read your emails with a Texas accent; dunno how, but there it is... As usual, what you say has great depth, and most of all, an aura of truth unfettered by ideology. By the way, Mark Twain also commented, in his own inimitable way, on what the land was like around the end of the 19th century. It was just as you described it below: no basketball-sized grapefruits. P. At 09:34 PM 8/14/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Howdy Vorts, > >Been an interesting series of comments but I see no consensus. > >At the fundamental base of humanity, very few have an inherent evil >within. I have met very few that were evil to the core without any >redemptive value. >There seems to be an age , possibly around 6-9 years, where certain >patterns of behavior emerge and a set of values begin to form that >influence behavior into adulthood. It is mostly impossible to change a >persons mind or behavior once set.since only God can change the heart. >Different religious cultural practice and parental teaching and discipline >seems to identify with various cultures. Muslim culture clashes with >Judeo-Christian culture and has for some 1400 years. Isreal understands >there can be no peaceful resolution so their method of survival is eye for >an eye. The Christian method is dependence upon God. We could be seeing >the same situation that occurred in the time of the kings of Isreal where >2 Chronicles chapter 20 identifies battles that belong to God. > >The USA is not only a paradox, it is going through another phase of >melding of cultures of which the outcome we cannot predict. >Dynamic changes underway have unintended consequences where individual >freedoms are further reduced both by the well intended and the schemes of men. > >Human nature is influenced by jealousy, vanity, lust and greed which leads >to no end of mischief with never ending variations producing one of the >most profitable and intriguing industries on the US scene... lawyering. >and the military industrial complex so profitable to the Carylile and >Blackstone group. > >I recall reading something written by DesCartes after his visit to the >holy lands regarding his unbelief that the phophecy of the eventual >restoration of Isreal couldn't happen because no one lived in the desert >region between the western sea and the Persian gulf except a few thousand >nomadic herdsmen. Yet the Zionist movement sent settlers to form Kibbutz >along the Gaza area in the 1880's They secured authorization from the >Turkish Sultan and purchased ( emphasis on bought , not took) the land >from the tribesmen on which they drilled water wells and created irrigated >farming co-ops ( communes) to sell produce to Europe. After thses farms >were established, their next step was to form the Hebrew University to >begin the training of a civil service cadre for governing. This long range >planning resulted in what Isaiah predicted and a nation was created in >"one day" in 1948. There has not been one day of peace since that day. >There has not been a day since 1948 that Isreal has not been mentioned in >the world news. Phophecy states that every nation that comes against >Isreal will injure themselves. A view of the pics of the damage wrought >against Lebanon seems to confirm that prophecy. > >Maybe the Mexicans had it right in the old days.. when two people couldn't >agree, they tied their hands together with rawhide , handed each a sharp >machete and advised them to settle the matter between themselves. >Oh! were the disputes of the world that easy to resolve. But .come to >think of it.. trouble usually starts with just two. If the two could be >culled out before they were able to hire somebody else to fight their >battles. everyone else would be left in peace to chase women, drink >whiskey and raise hell. > >Richard > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 09:18:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FGIO2a024745; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:18:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FGINNw024718; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:18:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060815114117.040fc9f8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:18:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297EE3C CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.c learchannel.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297EE3C CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >In addition, the suicide spirit was cultivated in wartime Japan, >amidst all the isolation that entailed. This is a far cry from >wandering thru airports, western colleges, strip bars, and various >part time jobs in western businesses. Of course it is very different. The point is, fanatical, suicidal people came to their senses and stopped the carnage. This kind of craziness does not usually continue indefinitely. >A few officers like Yamamoto had extensive exposure to western lands and >culture. His experience therefore made him more realistic - and >somewhat pessimistic - about war with the US. Very pessimistic. Actually, all Navy officers went on compulsory overseas tours and compared to the average person they were sophisticated and exposed to Western nations, so many of them felt misgivings about the war. The army top brass was more provincial. Unfortunately the army took over the country, and army hotheads tried to assassinate Yamamoto. >Shinto was the religion of a single nation and not something easily >exported by missionaries, unlike the aggressive claims of Islam. Actually, it was mainly cobbled together in the late 19th century as a mind-control tool to crack down on the people. So was Wahhabism, in the mid-18th century. These things have not been around long, and I doubt they will last. People often imagine that such institutions are ancient and permanent, but that is not the case. >It may be best to keep them divided and killing each other, if >rationality cannot otherwise prevail. Division and killing are bad for everyone. Misery breeds more misery. The only hope is that these societies will turn to constructive, life-affirming paths. And they probably will! Most societies do, sooner or later. Looking at the sum-total of history, and at present cultures in the world, you seldom find ones that are deeply dysfunctional and mired in self-destructive misery. They self-correct after a while, or self-destruct and go extinct, as described by J. Diamond in "Collapse." Naturally there are always criminals, social problems, and disruption. But the notion that we will be locked in an unending culturally-based war with these people for decades or centuries strikes me as profoundly unrealistic, ignorant of history, and far too pessimistic. The only country stuck in that kind of mess is Israel, sad to say. Along the same lines, the notion that we are going to run out of oil and then be plunged into a new dark age of starvation and $20 per gallon gasoline strikes me as ludicrous. No doubt we will run out of oil, and the sooner the better. The result will almost certainly be the rapid development of superior technology and an overall improvement in living standards, reduced pollution, and so on. As I said in chapter 18, this is a sure thing, unless we let idiots like Rifkin and the editor of SciAm stand in the way. See: S. L. Sass, "Scarcity, Mother of Invention" http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/10/opinion/10sass.html?_r=1&oref=slogin "Throughout history, shortages of vital resources have driven innovation, and energy has often starred in these technological dramas. The desperate search for new sources of energy and new materials has frequently produced remarkable advances that no one could have imagined when the shortage first became evident." See also S. L. Sass, prof. of materials science and engineering, Cornell, "The Substance of Civilization: Materials and Human History From the Stone Age to the Age of Silicon." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 09:56:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FGtc4A016258; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FGtYRc016212; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:55:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:55:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=QTbh4W03QJIeeeldblr/cNsYNkJ1PJGS923Gb/8kTY3QRW5ojSHe8wJcee+XaxVv0478OuMK61SRDt2wmLUTjlVgjNAmtAsG6kc/ROd1CApvo2oGLU2+Di/YYpBX8YR/5XmzmSkuZatyGwDkJqtPebP9a4OC3RCce643gG4iso4= Message-ID: <357653710608150955i3cccaaf7m80aa5dd8756f4442 mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:55:31 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1842_12735839.1155660931460" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_1842_12735839.1155660931460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming out in the upper right. http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/ David ------=_Part_1842_12735839.1155660931460 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi

Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming out in the upper right.
http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/

David


------=_Part_1842_12735839.1155660931460-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 10:16:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FHFl6U030590; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:15:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FHFjPA030561; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SR0R/M93/cy+BPAg4Licjfbe8pn3Efieo29YUH3GzEnNOTmX2a+Ez7TRginEw6v7Pa8nZ41KCiIEGOG0FpEn68+FRlU9qnUUEIbqkXHY2CAJe6CQ6juuXDtA03WE03RkmXAqqSrp3N6qyQFiPiTJj6FAWLQOLEeK0Fw4BZsZKvs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:15:44 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . . > > True for non-conventional wars. I always drawn back to this article by the late Robin Cook: http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html written after the London bombings. I find this excerpt amusing: "Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west." Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 10:20:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FHK7xs000786; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FHJoXX000603; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002001c6c08e$f7af2ee0$54037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: OT How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:19:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C065.0DC32300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C065.0DC32300 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C065.0DC32300" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C065.0DC32300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed wrote.. People often imagine that such institutions are=20 ancient and permanent, but that is not the case. Howdy Jed, I spend entirely too much time reading your's and Jones threads and = comments. Thinking of various religious teachings and practices led me to rethink = the prophetic statements of Jacob made when blessing his two grandsons = Menassah and Ephraim. As part of the ten northern tribes of Isreal that = are mentioned in history as the "lost tribes" their future functions are = alluded to in this prophecy. If they are "lost" they have no future.. = unless.. we are not looking at the world scene through those prophetic = words. The description of Joseph's "coat of many colors" has always = baffled me as to it's meaning. I have often considered the role Isreal = plays in the world scene. throughout history. They are way to tiny to = influence the mass of humanity.. unless.. again we are missing = something. Isreal is way too influencial in the world.. Science, = medicine, banking, law, administration, etc is keyed to the ancient = mores of Isreali law and ethics.=20 The question becomes .. who are these people ? Who are Ephaim and = Menassah? do they exist in today's world? These intriguing questions are = given to ponder. Joseph was the son that forgave and ultimately rescued = his brothers from starvation by his actions in Egypt. I try to picture = his sons, Ephraim and Menassah performing the same function in today's = Isreal and the connection to the the Brits and the USA. Do we again see = a paradox being played out on the world stage often described in the = ancient writing in the bible couched in stories about Cain and Abel, = Isaac and Ismael, Jacob and Esau.... Isreal and Islam ?? Man's attempt = to solve problems using human tools?=20 As an ole Andy Griffin TV series once portrayed.. Andy was asked a = question and his answer was.... I don't know the answer, BUT, I have = thought about it. The Mexican Federalies had the solution in the ole days. Ride into town, = choose 3 lilely suspicious bandido candidates to put again the wall and = execute. The priest would invariably attempt to intervene with the claim = that at least one was innocent. The executioner would say.. God will = sort the souls. Politics by expediancy. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C065.0DC32300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed wrote..

 People often imagine that such institutions are
ancient and = permanent, but that is not the case.

Howdy Jed,

I spend entirely too much time reading your's and Jones threads and=20 comments<grin>.

 Thinking of various religious teachings and practices led me to = rethink=20 the prophetic statements of Jacob made when blessing his two=20 grandsons   Menassah and Ephraim. As part of the ten northern = tribes=20 of Isreal that are mentioned in history as the "lost tribes" their = future=20 functions are alluded to in this prophecy. If they are "lost" they have = no=20 future.. unless.. we are not looking at the world scene through those = prophetic=20 words. The description of Joseph's "coat of many colors" has always = baffled me=20 as to it's meaning. I have often considered the role Isreal plays in the = world=20 scene. throughout history. They are way to tiny to influence the mass of = humanity.. unless.. again we are missing something. Isreal is way too=20 influencial in the world.. Science, medicine, banking, law, = administration, etc=20 is keyed to the ancient mores of Isreali law and ethics.

The question becomes .. who are these people ? Who are Ephaim and = Menassah?=20 do they exist in today's world? These intriguing questions are given to = ponder.=20 Joseph was the son that forgave and ultimately rescued his brothers = from=20 starvation by his actions in Egypt. I try to picture his = sons, Ephraim and=20 Menassah performing the same function in today's Isreal and the = connection to=20 the the Brits and the USA. Do we again see a paradox being played out on = the=20 world stage often described in the ancient writing in the bible couched = in=20 stories about Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ismael, Jacob and Esau.... Isreal = and=20 Islam ?? Man's attempt to solve problems using human tools?

As an ole Andy Griffin TV series once portrayed.. Andy was asked a = question=20 and his answer was.... I don't know the answer, BUT, I have thought = about=20 it.

The Mexican Federalies had the solution in the ole days. Ride = into town,=20 choose 3 lilely suspicious bandido candidates to put again the wall and = execute.=20 The priest would invariably attempt to intervene with the claim that at = least=20 one was innocent. The executioner would say.. God will sort the=20 souls. Politics by expediancy.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C065.0DC32300-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C065.0DC32300 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c6c08e$f672de50$54037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C065.0DC32300-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 10:41:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FHfSsw015421; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:41:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FHfPjM015384; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:41:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:41:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=l9o6/o63ouobQlxf8ekIBwdpL2lfBMo7SXfvljMVxFpjPFgZjFw5c6PC8J9AI2/fTz3NIuCPYI5gp70pPOWSh5xocVPzw/mnDPcLbBRWdVPQcT3GWyHV52Dse896MrDRNM7NSErB5zd7YYeJhI9VHzRW/KPpbfvaZsu8WBf1afM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:41:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum In-Reply-To: <357653710608150955i3cccaaf7m80aa5dd8756f4442 mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <357653710608150955i3cccaaf7m80aa5dd8756f4442 mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/15/06, David Jonsson wrote: > Hi > > Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming > out in the upper right. > http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/ Yes, ever since the fire on Apollo I, astronauts are required to go outside to smoke. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 10:53:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FHrULn023105; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:53:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FHrT7v023084; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:53:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c6c093$ae8560e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-220068215103230571 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:30:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? Status: O X-Status: Fred is a "gold mine" of information these days... The larger question for consideration of MTP (medium test peroxide, ~ 35%) as an alternative fuel is: what is the lowest possible "energy cost" for producing HOOH from ozone? Fred provided this reference: "The theoretical yield is 1200 grams O3 per kilowatt-Hour, commercial units show 5%efficiency in air and 15% in O2". Electrical Engineer's Handbook (Electric Power) Pender, Dell Mar eighth printing 1967 Since 1200 grams of O3 will theoretically convert one kg of H2O to 1.4 kg of HOOH, which is one liter, mas o menos, we have some round numbers to work with. To get a liter of 35% HOOH for ten cents of grid power, we need to achieve an efficiency of about 35%. Is that doable? Maybe. The low efficiency of commercial units is due primarily to using UV light, and the losses are mostly related to the other radiation in the visible and IR spectra - from the light source, which are not useful for making ozone. Commercial units (for hot tubs and pools, etc) are concerned mainly with simplicity, reliability and NOT the lowest energy costs, since ozone is an incredibly potent for use as a disinfection product - ergo, no one will quibble over a few cents worth of grid power. Plus that data is 40 years old now. However, if one wanted to fuel an automobile with 35% HOOH, knowing to will take 250 liters to replace 11 gallons of gasoline, then ... in order to save the $10 and make the process arguably attractive, using an energy cost of 10 cents per liter, then it would seem that this goal is potentially doable (with a massive engineering effort). If Detroit put a fair fraction of its R&D budget into this, we could possibly have a viable cheap alternative fuel made from air and water in the short term... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 11:47:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FIkdmG020184; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:46:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FIkYlo020131; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:46:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EnenB798MMzpmYisJH9InTlY4+oq5pAqgHOq+MlmGuiyJTqsjt0dlyyhGPAiUKPidR/3QB4CKMLt6JJlgGHd6zXPkEM7B6eR+E4kVG+CpnB/xFOS1PrsQoWSxhd3CKLB5HDbh8kq8OH5dF6LXrSmdp9KIlNa3oYWZ3Vdlk+LJRM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:46:30 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? In-Reply-To: <002101c6c093$ae8560e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220068215103230571 earthlink.net> <002101c6c093$ae8560e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <9LnCyC.A.M6E.Iah4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/15/06, Jones Beene wrote: > To get a liter of 35% HOOH for ten cents of grid power, we need to > achieve an efficiency of about 35%. Is that doable? > > Maybe. CARNIVORE keeping you from saying "hydrogen peroxide"? ;-) I was starting one of my small engines this weekend when I realized that the fuel I was using and the "charged water" constituted the ingredients for one of the bombs that were thwarted in London (nitromethane and H2O2). Syncronicity. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 14:31:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FLUgvL025139; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:30:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FLUeHe025115; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:30:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:30:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=qrGVibqfTw5ur/xeWJlGHEuVUEnRN5TAhwpXPIbfNuREFem3L8JvsPKavkRJCJAphgPK0GgBEy+aSRAX2g6yoHgyxa6hJywbJcSER06QqBdi9Jc8HmIxoit4cDApqqRHcii26U2rVEEYHGnd080wf+U9G2buOFArfG9oHNe0i+c= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:30:40 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Rare PKD Interview Status: O X-Status: >From 1977 with French subtitles no less: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewcp6Nm-rQ Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 15:09:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FM92B9016351; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:09:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FM8xMM016311; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:08:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:08:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:08:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Wrong. Both Jews and Christians *are* doing these things too. The > only difference is that the Muslims don't have expensive airplanes > to drop their bombs from, and they don't kill as many people. The Israelis are justified in what they are doing. They have been constantly attacked. Ever heard of "suicide bombers"? If you are equating Christians = Americans, then we are also justified. We were attacked, and retaliation is perfectly reasonable. The only question is, in my mind, is it massive enough? --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 15:37:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FMabVv001672; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:36:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FMaWFD001622; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:36:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:36:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E24CD7.7060706 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:38:15 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650@pop> <44E121AD.3080704@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500@pop> In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500 pop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > Good points Ed. > > As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of > self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form > are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our > "freedom" (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like > to call them "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women > than men). > > In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is > concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!! > > As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself. > Briefly, I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated > in Scotland and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their > own "water" as a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to > create the "water" they now have. But some (many) people are envious of > this water - without regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took > to create it - and would like to either steal it or spill it on the > ground just to satisfy this envy. Here is where we differ. Although envy is real and can motivate an individual for good or ill, I do not think it can mobilize many people and cause them to die for the idea. The root cause has to be a universal feeling, like pride, fairness, justice or just plane old self defense. Once these trip wires stir up the emotions, the other side naturally finds all kinds of defects in their enemy to justify killing them. We all see examples of great wealth in our countries, but very few people are motivated to attack these people even if they could. On the other hand, if a group attacks us, steals our livelihood, or treats us like dirt, must people would be first in line to kill them. The West has systematically done this to the Moslems nations over many years. For example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very unpopular dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did everything we could to intervene. We even supported Iraq in the war between Iran and Iraq. We treated the popular will of Iran like dirt. If Mexico had done the same thing to us, there would have been war. I find many people in the West can not believe our actions are not pure and good. When other people object, we believe they must be doing this with bad motives, which justifies our increased control. Of course, things get out of hand, like a bar fight after a few punches are thrown. At this point, being nice will not stop the fight. Only calling the cops will work. But would it not be better to know how to keep a bar fight from getting started in the first place? Most people know how prevent pissing the other guy off. The US government has never learned this because we were always the biggest guy in the bar. Now, the little guys have learned how to gang up and hit us when our back is turned. Being big no longer works. Ed > > P. > > > > At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: > > >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks >>> rationally and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. >> >> >> Good point, Philip. Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are >> rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you >> note below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to >> be implemented by the individual rather than by the state. >> >>> And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor >>> because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, >>> the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills >>> your friends, you might think of murder." >>> You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they >>> murder their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking >>> certain levels of sanity here. >> >> >> Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the >> right to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the >> child can not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can >> be killed. I don't recommend this approach, but it works better than >> our system seems to work in some cases. >> >>> And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... >>> perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? >>> Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so >>> they resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... >>> well you get the picture... >> >> >> Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the >> state (courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the >> individual to take action. I have known occasions when I wished this >> method was used more often here. >> >>> And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about >>> water? >> >> >> Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible. If you take my >> "water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by >> killing you. >> >> Ed >> >>> P. >>> >>> >>> At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >>> >>>>>> I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>>>> encouraged to believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see >>>>> what he has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the >>>>> most popular man in the Muslim world and millions of people have >>>>> named their sons after him and, so I think many people agree with >>>>> him. I think they are misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed >>>>> with the militarists too. No doubt the majority of the country did, >>>>> even though it was pretty obvious after 1938 that they were >>>>> dragging the nation into Hell. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are >>>> certain behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude >>>> toward sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with >>>> these subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. >>>> However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force >>>> for the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor >>>> because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, >>>> the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills >>>> your friends, you might think of murder. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>>>>>> style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be >>>>>>> worth practically nothing today. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we >>>>>> would all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will >>>>>> not be done and if they were, other worse consequences would result. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If >>>>> FDR or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done >>>>> now. I mean immediately, within a week. They would impose a five >>>>> dollar emergency wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women >>>>> to fight the war in Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the >>>>> use of SUVs. If this is really a war, as the leaders claim, it is >>>>> their responsibility to do such things. Wars are never won by >>>>> half-measures. The nation would follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: >>>>> "Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal >>>>> from us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so >>>>> speedily, assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by >>>>> concert. It is not 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all >>>>> do better?' The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the >>>>> stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we >>>>> must rise -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must >>>>> think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then >>>>> we shall save our country. >>>>> Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and >>>>> this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No >>>>> personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another >>>>> of us. . . . We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do >>>>> know how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear >>>>> the responsibility. . . ." >>>>> http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>>>> All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it >>>>> did to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we >>>>> know what must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>>>> And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never >>>>> sell the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in >>>>> 1941 and look where it got them. Probably more than any other >>>>> people on earth, we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a >>>>> short time. As Edward Grey put it, the United States is like "a >>>>> gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no >>>>> limit to the power it can generate." >>>>> The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who >>>>> are not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army >>>>> volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when >>>>> they were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln >>>>> nearly lost the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the >>>>> nomination. The people next in line who would have won if they had >>>>> lost would have led the nation into oblivion. >>>>> - Jed >>> >>> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 12:07:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7FJ6om1000733; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:06:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7FJ6nkm000720; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:06:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:06:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=wFSbDFpkirLIx1lBSA/jMnVEXjlZieMrrskO8RK8Ws/wE/n7383bKGhSXlwJ8iaPsXFPiq6036smgV5B9FArTNWkVr7CBQg8TV84sarNdFlfB6b2fGBw2MMrIX6jF0nTLF6m3Vc49bQhche7YaPqnOfxvqeH8fPD6cMq1OZzk6c= ; Message-ID: <0fc701c6c09d$ef40fd10$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: "Jones Beene" References: <410-220068215103230571 earthlink.net> <002101c6c093$ae8560e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:06:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: What is HTP ? X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Jones, how about this 1999 patent?. They use Glow Discharge and UV (together) and claim H2O2 production increases from ~ 12% to ~ 25% . http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?KEY=99/37581.991028 Title: (WO/1999/037581) HIGH EFFICIENCY GLOW DISCHARGE GASEOUS PROCESSING SYSTEM FOR HYDROGEN PEROXIDE PRODUCTION AND OTHER CHEMICAL PROCESSING OF GASES. Abstract: A high efficiency plasma processing system for use in the generation of large quantities of gases, particularly hydrogen peroxide or ozone, for chemical commercial and industrial applications is based upon a homogeneous electrical glow discharge. In addition to the homogenous discharge, the high efficiency of ozone or other chemical production is achieved by exciting the discharge with high voltage pulses which have a voltage rate-of-rise in excess of 500 V/ns and incorporating an internal gas circulation system which maintains the temperature of the process gas to a level where the thermal decomposition of ozone, for example, is significantly reduced. A homogeneous and stable atmospheric glow discharge is developed by preionizing the discharge region with ultra-violet radiation, for example, immediately before the application of the main high voltage pulse across the electrodes of the discharge cell. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? > Fred is a "gold mine" of information these days... > > The larger question for consideration of MTP (medium test peroxide, ~ 35%) > as an alternative fuel is: what is the lowest possible "energy cost" for > producing HOOH from ozone? > > Fred provided this reference: > > "The theoretical yield is 1200 grams O3 per kilowatt-Hour, > commercial units show 5%efficiency in air and 15% in O2". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 17:20:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G0K2ei022545; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:20:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G0G0iD019858; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:16:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=bLXWF6uIwP5Nb08PpNx4rY6CxXdwYlqPPH0LsyD1IUHhYKC1ZLwcdck4zVhUrKxKX1YEjpA4UetW1rIN4Und288A4LbJZ6jmYqQAtR5oFy1lLRAfVDxS0NInzJIQ7aKGxm/kWvG6MEkbP+71NTt2QOFMPmpCL/fo/bArMtVBe7Y= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060815200224.00ba7d08 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:15:05 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism In-Reply-To: <44E24CD7.7060706 ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909 pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401 ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0 zothan> <44E0920A.3040302 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248 mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306 ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600 mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650 pop> <44E121AD.3080704 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500 pop> <44E24CD7.7060706 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Yes - good points. I understand that the US has done some harebrained (dare I say flagrantly dishonest?) things during the past century and this has rubbed people the wrong way. Of course ALL of the Western nations - many of whom were colonialists - did some dubious things. Even the jolly old Brits, who, believe it or not, supported the Arabs in their war of potential annihilation in 1948. And look at the Italians!!!! Descendents of the Romans!!!! You see, it starts to get silly. The Muslims are still bitching about the Crusades!!!! And as for: "The West has systematically done this to the Moslems nations over many years." What the West has done to the Muslims is nothing compared to what they have done - or not done - to themselves. And ask the people of India - the Hindus that is - how they were treated by the Moguls during their invasions; 70 million killed, among other dreadful and disgusting things. The history of Islam is one of plunder and death. You don't have to do too much to help yourself by creating things - becoming industrious - if you can assemble a ruthless army and just TAKE whatever you want. This is all verifiable by various history books. Aside from what I wrote above about the Americans (whom I still admire greatly), a bunch of poor refugees landed at Plymouth Sound several years ago and forged, from the ground up, a great, wealthy, risk-taking, generous, industrious nation. With all the untold oil revenues the Arabs have, they have done, in comparison, nothing... except build schools of indoctrination, and buy weapons for terrorists. So I don't think we can really talk in this respect about the West stealing their water... They really didn't have it in the first place. P. At 04:38 PM 8/15/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > >>Good points Ed. >>As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of >>self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form >>are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our >>"freedom" (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like >>to call them "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women >>than men). >>In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is >>concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!! >>As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself. >>Briefly, I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated in >>Scotland and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their own >>"water" as a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to create >>the "water" they now have. But some (many) people are envious of this >>water - without regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took to >>create it - and would like to either steal it or spill it on the ground >>just to satisfy this envy. > >Here is where we differ. Although envy is real and can motivate an >individual for good or ill, I do not think it can mobilize many people and >cause them to die for the idea. The root cause has to be a universal >feeling, like pride, fairness, justice or just plane old self >defense. Once these trip wires stir up the emotions, the other side >naturally finds all kinds of defects in their enemy to justify killing >them. We all see examples of great wealth in our countries, but very few >people are motivated to attack these people even if they could. On the >other hand, if a group attacks us, steals our livelihood, or treats us >like dirt, must people would be first in line to kill them. The West has >systematically done this to the Moslems nations over many years. For >example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very unpopular >dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did everything >we could to intervene. We even supported Iraq in the war between Iran and >Iraq. We treated the popular will of Iran like dirt. If Mexico had done >the same thing to us, there would have been war. I find many people in the >West can not believe our actions are not pure and good. When other people >object, we believe they must be doing this with bad motives, which >justifies our increased control. Of course, things get out of hand, like >a bar fight after a few punches are thrown. At this point, being nice >will not stop the fight. Only calling the cops will work. But would it >not be better to know how to keep a bar fight from getting started in the >first place? Most people know how prevent pissing the other guy off. The >US government has never learned this because we were always the biggest >guy in the bar. Now, the little guys have learned how to gang up and hit >us when our back is turned. Being big no longer works. > >Ed >>P. >> >>At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>Philip Winestone wrote: >>> >>>>Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks >>>>rationally and quasi-legally like you do. Most don't. >>> >>> >>>Good point, Philip. Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are >>>rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you >>>note below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to be >>>implemented by the individual rather than by the state. >>> >>>>And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor because >>>>he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, the >>>>neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your >>>>friends, you might think of murder." >>>>You haven't heard of honour killings? More often than not they murder >>>>their own offspring for that very reason. So we're talking certain >>>>levels of sanity here. >>> >>> >>>Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the >>>right to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the >>>child can not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can be >>>killed. I don't recommend this approach, but it works better than our >>>system seems to work in some cases. >>> >>>>And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well... >>>>perhaps I am dirt? Have you never experienced neighbours like that? >>>>Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so they >>>>resort to... mayhem. And as dirt often associates with dirt... well >>>>you get the picture... >>> >>> >>>Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the state >>>(courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the individual >>>to take action. I have known occasions when I wished this method was >>>used more often here. >>> >>>>And the water? Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about >>>>water? >>> >>> >>>Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible. If you take my >>>"water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by killing you. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>>P. >>>> >>>> >>>>At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>I don't believe they hate our freedom and our good life as we are >>>>>>>encouraged to believe. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>They say they do! Have you read bin Laden speeches? You can see what >>>>>>he has to say in books such as, "Imperial Hubris." He is the most >>>>>>popular man in the Muslim world and millions of people have named >>>>>>their sons after him and, so I think many people agree with him. I >>>>>>think they are misguided. Millions of Japanese people agreed with the >>>>>>militarists too. No doubt the majority of the country did, even >>>>>>though it was pretty obvious after 1938 that they were dragging the >>>>>>nation into Hell. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I think this conclusion is too simplistic. What they hate are certain >>>>>behaviors that are permitted by our society and our attitude toward >>>>>sex. Some Christians in the US have a similar problem with these >>>>>subjects, although they would not suggest the same solution. >>>>>However, I don't believe these reasons are the main driving force for >>>>>the movement. A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor >>>>>because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, >>>>>the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills your >>>>>friends, you might think of murder. >>>>> >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Of course it could. If the US had launched a massive World War II >>>>>>>>style effort to fix the problem starting in 2001, oil would be >>>>>>>>worth practically nothing today. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, and if the government gave everyone 1 million dollars, we would >>>>>>>all be rich. But like this silly example, such things will not be >>>>>>>done and if they were, other worse consequences would result. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Such things were done in the past when the nation was in crisis. If >>>>>>FDR or Lincoln were in charge, this and much more would be done now. >>>>>>I mean immediately, within a week. They would impose a five dollar >>>>>>emergency wartime gasoline tax, draft a million men & women to fight >>>>>>the war in Afghanistan (which we are losing), and ban the use of >>>>>>SUVs. If this is really a war, as the leaders claim, it is their >>>>>>responsibility to do such things. Wars are never won by >>>>>>half-measures. The nation would follow I am sure. As Lincoln put it: >>>>>>"Will not the good people respond to a united, and earnest appeal >>>>>>from us? Can we, can they, by any other means, so certainly, or so >>>>>>speedily, assure these vital objects? We can succeed only by concert. >>>>>>It is not 'can any of us imagine better?' but, 'can we all do >>>>>>better?' The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy >>>>>>present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise >>>>>>-- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and >>>>>>act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country. >>>>>>Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and >>>>>>this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No >>>>>>personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of >>>>>>us. . . . We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know >>>>>>how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the >>>>>>responsibility. . . ." >>>>>>http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/congress.htm >>>>>>All of that applies as much to the energy/terror crisis today as it >>>>>>did to the crisis of slavery in December 1862. Then and now, we know >>>>>>what must be done. We need only summon up the will to *do* it. >>>>>>And we may yet take action. Don't bet against it! You should never >>>>>>sell the United States or its people short. The Japanese did in 1941 >>>>>>and look where it got them. Probably more than any other people on >>>>>>earth, we are capable of doing extraordinary deeds in a short time. >>>>>>As Edward Grey put it, the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. >>>>>>Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it >>>>>>can generate." >>>>>>The only thing we lack are leaders with guts & vision. Leaders who >>>>>>are not afraid to demand sacrifices from everyone, not just army >>>>>>volunteers. In the past, such people have often stepped forth when >>>>>>they were needed. But it has always been a close call. Lincoln nearly >>>>>>lost the election and FDR had great difficulty securing the >>>>>>nomination. The people next in line who would have won if they had >>>>>>lost would have led the nation into oblivion. >>>>>>- Jed >>>> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 17:59:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G0xMTO009409; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G0xJEl009373; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:59:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:59:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <415.8356e69.3213c7dd aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:59:09 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1155689949" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5059 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1155689949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at http://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm used by Buddhist Monks generates energy by replicating a model of the Universe and Solar system in it fractally. Our solar system is a Binary Star and so may be the Universe a Binary Universe. I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures can be generated from small simple structures. Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and iterated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Flag. The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unlimited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them. Structures generated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in them to help them replicate universally. I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social systems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered. Societies and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from some very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few of the modern societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use. If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost all problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is room for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the community as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very basic primitive amongst others. I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighborhood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universal system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are connected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes with the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mini-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that the town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion. [Prefabricated Community Model Schematic ] [Community Virtual Reality Model and Object Data Structures] [Prefabricated, automated, secure, & self sustaining community plans & technologies ] Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1155689949 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies
 
The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at http://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm = used by Buddhist Monks generates energy by replicating a model of the Univer= se and Solar system in it fractally.  Our solar system is a Binary Star=  and so may be the Universe a Binary Universe. 
 
I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat=20= chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which= is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures c= an be generated from small simple structures.
 
Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if=20= recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and ite= rated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of=20= the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Fla= g.  The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unli= mited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them.  Structures g= enerated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in t= hem to help them replicate universally.
I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social syst= ems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer= models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any&= nbsp;culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look= free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered.  Societies= and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison=20= free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from som= e very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few  of the moder= n societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use. 
If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost al= l problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is r= oom for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and= may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the c= ommunity as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very=20= basic primitive amongst others.
I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighbor= hood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universa= l system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are c= onnected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes wit= h the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in= it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mi= ni-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that th= e town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion.
 
 
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1155689949-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 18:00:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G10G0a009971; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:00:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G0p3wO006400; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:51:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:50:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:50:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G0ofXH006204 Resent-Message-ID: <1kMmnB.A.njB.yvm4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:08:48 -0400: Hi, [snip] >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:51 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > >> Wrong. Both Jews and Christians *are* doing these things too. The >> only difference is that the Muslims don't have expensive airplanes >> to drop their bombs from, and they don't kill as many people. > >The Israelis are justified in what they are doing. They have been constantly >attacked. Ever heard of "suicide bombers"? ...and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it is worth giving up their lives? > >If you are equating Christians = Americans, ..I was including Americans in that category (as well as many European nations and my own country too (Australia). >then we are also justified. We >were attacked, .. yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it? >and retaliation is perfectly reasonable. The only question >is, in my mind, is it massive enough? There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag" operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself - thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq who had nothing to do with it anyway. America lost about 3000 people in the WTC. This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:- 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 ....and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and "doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not, there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them. ...and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that violence will resolve the problem. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 18:42:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G1fxMx032648; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:41:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G1fvpQ032624; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:41:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c6c0d5$1f63f790$0f027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:41:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C0AB.349BBC80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C0AB.349BBC80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6C0AB.34A1D700" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6C0AB.34A1D700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin wrote.. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). Howdy Robin, All the above is just an academic argument compared to what is staring = Australia in the face. An entire continent, underpopulated by mostly = European Infidels. Just northwest of Australia lies the East Indies with = a muslim population explosion in progress in a land hungry series of = nation islands. When its time , they will come knocking on your door. = They are already invading Australia by the boatloads. Streets in major = cities are no longer safe.=20 What is your suggested solution? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6C0AB.34A1D700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin wrote..
 
Ever heard of a Pyrrhic
victory? - because that would be the = most=20 probable outcome, if you
both had your way. (No bets on who the = "victor"=20 would be).

Howdy Robin,

All the above is just an academic argument compared to what is = staring=20 Australia in the face. An entire continent, underpopulated by mostly = European=20 Infidels. Just northwest of Australia lies the East Indies with a muslim = population explosion in progress in a land hungry series of nation = islands. When=20 its time , they will come knocking on your door. They are already = invading=20 Australia by the boatloads. Streets in major cities are no longer safe. =

What is your suggested solution?

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C6C0AB.34A1D700-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C0AB.349BBC80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c6c0d5$1d427720$0f027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C0AB.349BBC80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 18:48:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G1mWcA004049; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:48:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G1mTj4004022; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:48:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:48:23 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1155692903" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5059 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1155692903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies- Resend Due To Title Missing The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at http://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm used by Buddhist Monks generates energy by replicating a model of the Universe and Solar system in it fractally. Our solar system is a Binary Star and so may be the Universe a Binary Universe. I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures can be generated from small simple structures. Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and iterated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Flag. The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unlimited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them. Structures generated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in them to help them replicate universally. I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social systems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered. Societies and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from some very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few of the modern societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use. If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost all problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is room for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the community as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very basic primitive amongst others. I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighborhood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universal system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are connected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes with the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mini-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that the town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion. [Prefabricated Community Model Schematic ] [Community Virtual Reality Model and Object Data Structures] [Prefabricated, automated, secure, & self sustaining community plans & technologies ] Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1155692903 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies- Resend Due=20= To Title Missing
 
The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at h= ttp://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm used by Buddhist Monks ge= nerates energy by replicating a model of the Universe and Solar system in it= fractally.  Our solar system is a Binary Star and so may be the U= niverse a Binary Universe. 
 
I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat=20= chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which= is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures c= an be generated from small simple structures.
 
Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if=20= recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and ite= rated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of=20= the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Fla= g.  The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unli= mited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them.  Structures g= enerated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in t= hem to help them replicate universally.
I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social syst= ems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer= models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any&= nbsp;culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look= free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered.  Societies= and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison=20= free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from som= e very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few  of the moder= n societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use. 
If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost al= l problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is r= oom for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and= may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the c= ommunity as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very=20= basic primitive amongst others.
I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighbor= hood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universa= l system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are c= onnected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes wit= h the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in= it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mi= ni-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that th= e town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion.
 
 
 
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1155692903-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 18:56:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G1u1hZ007737; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:56:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G1txEY007723; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:55:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iB8NXN+6qfVtJJfcZk+x8H7W//BbhnV1cKxZQC2H1mcZx18IkEgDFjYq7e3Utb4DRQ6Hw2MvwhvzPSoqA1XHoSFMeiqdlTYI00JTx1Oap/kuW90EgXXbbria9pFI9sibmWMZXTy5xtGpc0KgwGSKUXhlz3tTCxjCpkYQIM7qo28= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:55:57 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > America lost about 3000 people in the WTC. > This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:- > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > 3000 > > ....and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and > "doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not, > there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them. > > ...and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel > exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that > violence will resolve the problem. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic > victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you > both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). Just wait. We haven't even *begun* to play cowboys and moslems yet. Of course, *your* government is guilt free: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody And this is only part of the story. http://bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm And you don't even have any damned guns to protect yourselves. "Would you like some free (small pox covered) blankies?" It's all relative, n'est-ce pas? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 19:12:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G2CRqe016059; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G2CPXJ016023; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c6c0d9$6392f750$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:52:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: <1E77L.A.S6D.J8n4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> >> The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq >> conflict >> is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the >> world is that we have no real taste for Empire. > > > > The US out-sourced the task of running an empire. Interesting. Are you including international commercial licensing as 'outsourcing empire'? Or outsourcing manufacturing technology and teaching other countries the means of quality manufacturing, the better to compete with us, as 'outsourcing empire'? Or protecting Japan with a military shield so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a stable economy so the US becomes a preferred respository for wealth so that we become increaingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, as 'outsourcing empire'? As I recall we spect great treasure and lives in containing the Soviet use of client states to spread communism. or should we be without alliances of any kind? Mike Carrell > > Harry > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 19:12:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G2CVb4016085; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G2CSAc016056; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:12:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c6c0d9$63a3c030$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388 mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:08:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism I think Robin misses a point here: > IOW the US administration has propped up corrupt puppet > governments that ensured an ongoing flow of cheap oil. A policy that the US has imperfectly followed is to deal with the government of a nation and not to intefere with its internal affairs. [Note I said imperfectly, of the US has covertly meddled in the affairs of other nations, but not to the extent that Russia did.] This often leaves us in the position of 'propping up corrupt governments' to get oil, minerals, or banannas [as in 'bananna republics'] What would Robin have us do, foment revolution, establish representative government and forced redistribution of wealth? I think we tried that in Iraq, and it isn't going well for various reasons. Where the wealth of a country comes from a valuable, concentrated resource like oil, copper, or banannas it is possible for a kelptocracy to form as it takes few people to control the operation and support a series of thugs in power, wo do not use the welath for the betterment of all the people. And all the oil nations are not alike, someof the Emirates are investing their welath in the whole populace. The US often winds up supporting the 'bad guys' as seen from the perspective of Austrailia and other nations. Just remember that the finger of greed points in all directions. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 19:40:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G2eXl1030073; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:40:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G2eWRL030053; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:40:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:40:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c6c0dd$53d2ff00$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0E94F.3040304@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814202549.01e6b650@pop> <44E121AD.3080704@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20060814221840.01e67500@pop> <44E24CD7.7060706@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:38:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism . For > example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very unpopular > dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did everything > we could to intervene. At least one reason the US supported the Shah of Iran is that he allowed the US to establish secret listening posts near the Soviet missile test ranges, where intercepted signals gave clues to the status and caapability of Soviet missiles. It was so easy fot US dimplomats to be cozy with the Shah and his entourage and ignore reports about this obscure Ayatolla. Some US private interests supported early White Russian rebellion against the communists, earning decades of distrust of the west. In the end, the US faced down the communist empire by military challanges it could not match, and it collapsed switftly. Would those no so critical of the US prefer the scenario of the domination of a command economy? And, yes, Soviety power in Afghhanastan had to be opposed, as it seems the Islamic extremists as well. We continue to miscalculate the consequences of our actions -- but somehow US popular culture is well received in many places, if not the 'thinking people' everywhere. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 20:22:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G3MemG018505; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:22:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G3McHa018478; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:22:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:21:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <001f01c6c0d9$6392f750$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4DcQjB.A.lgE.-9o4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > >> Mike Carrell wrote: >> >>> >>> The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq >>> conflict >>> is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the >>> world is that we have no real taste for Empire. >> >> >> >> The US out-sourced the task of running an empire. > > Interesting. Are you including international commercial licensing as > 'outsourcing empire'? Or outsourcing manufacturing technology and teaching > other countries the means of quality manufacturing, the better to compete > with us, as 'outsourcing empire'? A mainly capitalist world is what America wants is it not? > Or protecting Japan with a military shield > so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and > becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a stable > economy so the US becomes a preferred respository for wealth so that we > become increaingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing > empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto > manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, as > 'outsourcing empire'? So what? The British Empire had slums at home. > As I recall we spect great treasure and lives in containing the Soviet use > of client states to spread communism. or should we be without alliances of > any kind? > > Mike Carrell Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 20:59:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G3wolk001239; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G3wnN5001221; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:58:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5555e25ntuklp1hvu3hr5o154hbt2pckgp 4ax.com> References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:58:42 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G3wggQ001189 Resent-Message-ID: <5nV9QD.A.BT.4fp4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:55:57 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Just wait. We haven't even *begun* to play cowboys and moslems yet. Then don't cry a poor mouth when they do the same. > >Of course, *your* government is guilt free: I never said the Australian government was guilt free, and I try to vote them out of office at every opportunity, however I'm fighting an uphill battle against the mortgage belt. (and BTW your government isn't even *your* government - having stolen the election). > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody > >And this is only part of the story. > >http://bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm Advice we could all take to heart. > >And you don't even have any damned guns to protect yourselves. Guns are of little value when one is being bombed from 30000 feet. > >"Would you like some free (small pox covered) blankies?" That was terrible and I make no excuses for them, and I certainly don't say "We are in the right, and should be bombing the crap out of them". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 21:05:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G451wX004791; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:05:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G4502a004761; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:05:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:05:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:04:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01c6c0d5$1f63f790$0f027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <000e01c6c0d5$1f63f790$0f027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:04:51 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G44rSB004696 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:41:37 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Howdy Robin, > >All the above is just an academic argument compared to what is staring Australia in the face. An entire continent, underpopulated by mostly European Infidels. Just northwest of Australia lies the East Indies with a muslim population explosion in progress in a land hungry series of nation islands. When its time , they will come knocking on your door. They are already invading Australia by the boatloads. Streets in major cities are no longer safe. > >What is your suggested solution? Let them all in. With CF Australia would easily support the same population as the US. The huge decrease in population density and increase in standard of living that ensued for the "teaming hordes" would cool their fervor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 21:20:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G4KWaA012439; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:20:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G4KUXF012394; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:20:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:20:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:20:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <357653710608150955i3cccaaf7m80aa5dd8756f4442 mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710608150955i3cccaaf7m80aa5dd8756f4442 mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:20:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G4KFsD012220 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to David Jonsson's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:55:31 +0200: Hi, [snip] >Hi > >Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming >out in the upper right. >http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/ > >David In cinema movies they put a couple of rings in the upper right hand corner near the end of the film (usually yellowish), to warn the operator to change reels. Could this be related? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 21:27:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G4Qw5P016269; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:26:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G4QuMj016253; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:26:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:26:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:26:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828@mindspring.com> <44E0EF98.1000508@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814181736.0406cbb8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814181736.0406cbb8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:26:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G4Qr3x016218 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:36:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Put them in charge of a cold fusion desalination megaproject to >transform the region they will never again contemplate suicide! > Correct! - even just a chance to work on the project in any capacity. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 21:31:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G4V85d018508; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G4V7nW018493; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:31:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:31:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:30:58 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6o75e25uma953i3bq86rbd0r2ucrr1at2f 4ax.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C297E855 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814165959.04077828@mindspring.com> <44E0EF98.1000508@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814181736.0406cbb8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060814181736.0406cbb8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:30:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G4V2NN018444 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:36:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] >When you give any >group of people a reasonably peaceful, fair, orderly society to live >in and they will always do fine. Correct again. The average man on the street just wants a reasonable chance at a future for himself and his family (in all countries). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 22:20:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G5K2xZ009135; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:20:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G5BKwS004985; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:11:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:11:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:11:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <44DCCB57.2070805 ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <44E0920A.3040302@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814113243.0403e248@mindspring.com> <44E0ACFE.5020502@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814133215.0412f600@mindspring.com> <44E0C2BC.5060306@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060814144144.0412f600@mindspring.com> <002001c6c0d9$63a3c030$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <002001c6c0d9$63a3c030$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:11:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7G5BHoU004946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:08:20 -0400: Hi, [snip] >What would Robin have us do, foment revolution, >establish representative government and forced redistribution of wealth? No, if the US stops supplying such governments with arms, ammunition, and training for their armed forces, the people themselves have a much better chance of overthrowing their corrupt governments. > I >think we tried that in Iraq, and it isn't going well for various reasons. No, that is not what your government is trying to do in Iraq, it's just what they tell you they are trying to do, because they know it will sound good to you. You really need to take a look at who is benefiting from this war (hint look up "Carlyle Group"), and contrast that with who is paying for it. > >Where the wealth of a country comes from a valuable, concentrated resource >like oil, copper, or banannas it is possible for a kelptocracy to form as it >takes few people to control the operation and support a series of thugs in >power, wo do not use the welath for the betterment of all the people. Indeed, but as I said above, they tend not to do so well when military support is missing. (And BTW I agree that the US is not the only guilty party in this regard - all the major powers have had a hand in it). >And >all the oil nations are not alike, someof the Emirates are investing their >welath in the whole populace. Also true, at the least, in the form of very cheap gasoline. > >The US often winds up supporting the 'bad guys' as seen from the perspective >of Austrailia and other nations. Just remember that the finger of greed >points in all directions. Indeed, which is why we need to follow it to find a real solution to the problem. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 23:24:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G6OZn1002876; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:24:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G6OTq6002824; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:24:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:24:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E2B9F2.4020909 usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:23:46 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ? References: <410-220068215103230571 earthlink.net> <002101c6c093$ae8560e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > I was starting one of my small engines this weekend when I realized > that the fuel I was using and the "charged water" constituted the > ingredients for one of the bombs that were thwarted in London > (nitromethane and H2O2). > Does anyone know what nitromethane smells like? it would seem to me that it would have a strong chemical odor. What about the HTP? It would seem to me that it would be like my 2% HP on steroids. There's no mistaking it for water. I read Chemistry of Powders and Explosives. The author mentioned liquid explosives developed by the French during WW I. I've forgotten the chemical names, but there would be no mistaking them for water, or moisturizing gel either. I'm mentioning this because the TSA started confiscating all water and gels. Typical hamhanded bureaucratic response. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 23:47:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G6lYfQ013297; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:47:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G6lXcV013280; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:47:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:47:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=jfAHSGPPGG1+9hM/a76R0Annrr2VxJUHybIui/dbXMCIBZ7+qOUlys11Jm10PM30+nAA3cikKznd9reJNGDQ0tQicoWchjbGc8swyeJUguhBwJjmhUxhhEfrJwSS0kRoBra5Pc0ZDTp7oXxaFzf+zLy2w+YC7GigB97bohFcEH0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:47:31 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10699_33265278.1155710851058" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: energy and practical operation [OPEN DISCUSSION ON TOPIC] Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_10699_33265278.1155710851058 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo, I see many posts about: i] politic ii] energy and what may be politic iii] energy, what may be politic OPEN FOR THE SAKE OF REFRESHMENT: Will any vo contribute to the following general topic, from their personal work or work that is know to have been by other persons... and please give credit where due: 1] electrolysis of water, current, voltage, electrode types, spacing and surface areas of electrodes, evolution of gases... what gasses. 1] (A) Water vapor and contribution of vapor (B) Temperatures of reactions 2] Have any vo used catalytic action with-of -for lysis of water (all of the above applies, please) 3] Real world work and utilization of the evolved gases as opposed to "what a mathmatical model" may predict. 3] (A) OK for the math... but let us also see the comparison PLEASE =================== THERMAL 1] DIRECT CONVERSION OF ENERGY... THERMAL TO: i] electrical ii] mechanical 2] Manifold step energy conversion ============= Multiple work Production of energy from the sun... and using any extra heat for production of clean water =============== OTHER methods for making energy not covered in the above.... _____________________________ How about a survey of results, knowledge and practice.....? Either this HAS to be fun that people-politic back-and-forth OR: Many of the Vo who have real background have left, will only lurk, forgot what they may have know ... or something else.... curious about the something else?? I am ------=_Part_10699_33265278.1155710851058 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
  Dear  Vo,
 
     I see many posts about:
 
     i]   politic
 
     ii]     energy and what may be politic
 
     iii]   energy, what may be politic
 
 
           OPEN 
 
         FOR THE SAKE OF REFRESHMENT:
 
         Will any vo contribute to the following general topic, from their personal work or work that is know to have been by other persons... and please give credit where due:
 
        1]  electrolysis of water, current, voltage, electrode types, spacing and surface areas of electrodes, evolution of gases... what gasses.
 
           1]  (A)  Water vapor and contribution of vapor
                (B)  Temperatures of reactions
 
         2]    Have any vo used catalytic action with-of -for lysis of water 
           (all of the above applies, please)
 
         3]  Real world work and utilization of the evolved gases as opposed to
                "what a mathmatical model" may predict.
                 3]   (A)  OK for the math... but let us also see the comparison 
                                   PLEASE
 
         ===================
 
        THERMAL
 
           1]  DIRECT CONVERSION OF ENERGY... THERMAL TO:
 
                i]  electrical
                ii]  mechanical
            2]   Manifold step energy conversion
 
        =============
 
             Multiple work
 
               Production of energy from the sun... and using any extra heat for
                   production of clean water
 
===============
 
     OTHER methods for making energy not covered in the above....
 
_____________________________
 
 
       How about a survey of results, knowledge and practice.....?
 
          Either this HAS to be fun that people-politic back-and-forth
 
         OR:
 
        Many of the Vo who have real background have left, will only lurk, forgot what they may have know ... or something else....
 
         curious about the something else??
 
         I am 
------=_Part_10699_33265278.1155710851058-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 23:53:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7G6qxIH015957; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:53:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7G6qwpP015940; Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:52:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E2C09F.70402 usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:52:15 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com References: <44E2C058.3090405 usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <44E2C058.3090405 usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4_lYS.A.74D.KDs4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: physics of the expanding Earth Theory Status: O X-Status: I sent the following to Hal Puthoff. > Dear Hal; > > Last night there was an advocate of the expanding earth theory > interviewed on C to C AM. He raised the argument that the dinosars > were too big for their bones to support them in the present gravity. > > His solution is the expanding Earth Theory. His website has a series > of pictures showing how he believes this happened. The pictures look > good, but he is a professional artist. > > Then he mentioned subatomic particles. This webpage gives an > explanation of why this happened. > > http://www.nealadams.com/PhysicsOfGrow.html > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 04:41:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GBfAC8030757; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:41:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GBf8sE030738; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:41:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:41:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=no2c5T0QE0XAUDep3WDWvcgJ6UlUx9JwuwS5j6ChGQkfojSBEQ6yx9PGHGqzVTU84VjNipgTYJsxfyOAB1mFyAa+uD9ZtO9wlY/fcTcbsxDQrn+qBwwTDHBr/jPzZgjsSTbpZPAWCHFlc5lZiuNmqepDs9o1r03LKb1hDp0Jurw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:38:22 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000e01c6c0d5$1f63f790$0f027841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/16/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Let them all in. With CF Australia would easily support the same > population as the US. The huge decrease in population density and > increase in standard of living that ensued for the "teaming > hordes" would cool their fervor. And you will adopt the beliefs of the avatar Mohammed? Or will you die defending your own? You have but two choices. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 05:59:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GCxH6J006687; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:59:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GCxGoj006677; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:59:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:59:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c6c133$c2fef720$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:34:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Harry Veeder wrote: > A mainly capitalist world is what America wants is it not? Ah, that nasty word "capitalist". It has a different meaning to European intellectuals than to the origins and thrust of the US economy. Capital is a concentration of resources to allow future work or development. A farmer who retains a portion of each year's crop to plant the next is using his 'profits' and is a 'capitalist'. Farmers who combine resources to build silos for storage of crops for future sales are 'capitalists'. What Marx and other socialists railed against in England was the landed gentry of feudal traditions who became factory owners and exploited workers as they did tenant farmers, using their unearned wealth to build an industrial society which indirectly benefits everyone. The early US took a different direction, where businessmen were part of the community. That story was well told by Bruckberger in his 1959 "Image of America", addressed to European intellectuals. The real revolution of the 20th century was not the Bolshevik but the day Henry Ford decided to pay his workers $5 for an 8 hour day, sharing the increased efficiency of his mass production methods. It was unprecedented at the time, enabling his workers to become customers and own automobiles. He was sued by the Dodge Brothers for mismanagement [they covered their losses in the automobile business by their income from Ford stock]. In the trial, Ford was asked if he motive was not profit. His reply was that his motive was to make a useful, affordable car and if he did that he could not help make money. What has happened since is complex; mass production brought its own social problems which took time to work out. Today, actual ownership of US business is diffused through perhaps 50% of the population through direct investment, but also insurance and retirement plans. Harry is perhaps confusing 'capitalism' with a 'market economy'. It is the latter, and free trade, which the US promotes. This releases individual entrepreneurial energy and provides many ways for the able and ambitious person to grow which is stifled by autocratic systems of whatever kind. One imitative by 'capitalists' in the US is a system of microloans to people in developing countries which enable villagers to start small businesses on the road to independence. Or, Harry, would you prefer continuing government doles and continued dependence on a bureaucracy? > >> Or protecting Japan with a military shield >> so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and >> becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a >> stable >> economy so the US becomes a preferred repository for wealth so that we >> become increasingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing >> empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto >> manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, >> as >> 'outsourcing empire'? > > So what? The British Empire had slums at home. Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as opposed to equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces equal poverty for all. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 07:29:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GETbT6023229; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:29:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GETZ5u023207; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:29:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:29:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c6c140$345f5b10$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:23:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C115.B3F57600"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C115.B3F57600 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C115.B3F57600" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C115.B3F57600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMike Carrell wrote.. Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as opposed = to=20 equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces = equal=20 poverty for all. Howdy Mike, Ah! The law of unintended consequenses. You may add to the equation the = " derivative" consequence. This strange "critter" has morphed into a = near uncontrollable super virus that eats anything that approaches it = for security, balance, offset, hedge or a host of excuses to foster the = great game. Derivatives are now indispensible to the world financial = system. Rummy was certainly right in his statement... " deficits no = longer matter". A truism when you think about it. SEC was spoiling to = "regulate" the beast until the very wise of the world led them aside and = explained the facts of life to them. The poor dumb Muslim nations are so = far back in the mire of the 6th century that they know they are being = used by big petro but they dont know what to do about it except blow = themselves up attempting to get even.Ever notice that many of the = firebrand leaders in these natiions were educated in Moscow back in = their glory days... take for example.. Saddam Hussian,, hmmm. Scratch = the surface of the lot and notice they are first Marxist and last Muslin = clerics.=20 The problem with wanting to play in the world's poker game of life is = the need to constantly remind yourself the house wins because they hold = the odds which causes you bet against yourself. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C115.B3F57600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Mike Carrell wrote..

Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as = opposed to=20
equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces = equal=20
poverty for all.

Howdy Mike,

Ah! The law of unintended consequenses. You may add to the equation = the "=20 derivative" consequence. This strange "critter" has morphed into a near=20 uncontrollable super virus that eats anything that approaches it for = security,=20 balance, offset, hedge or a host of excuses to foster the great game.=20 Derivatives are now indispensible to the world financial system. Rummy = was=20 certainly right in his statement... " deficits no longer matter". A = truism when=20 you think about it. SEC was spoiling to "regulate" the beast until the = very wise=20 of the world led them aside and explained the facts of life to them. The = poor=20 dumb Muslim nations are so far back in the mire of the 6th century that = they=20 know they are being used by big petro but they dont know what to do = about it=20 except blow themselves up attempting to get even.Ever notice that many = of the=20 firebrand leaders in these natiions were educated in Moscow back in = their glory=20 days... take for example.. Saddam Hussian,, hmmm. Scratch the surface of = the lot=20 and notice they are first Marxist and last Muslin clerics. 

The problem with wanting to play in the world's poker game of life=20 is the need to constantly remind yourself the house wins = because they=20 hold the odds which causes  you bet against=20 yourself.

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C115.B3F57600-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C115.B3F57600 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6c13f$9cbc14b0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C115.B3F57600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 08:21:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GFKfQ3026750; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:20:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GFKcl4026714; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:20:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:20:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,132,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="586347925:sNHT38151390" Message-ID: <1849879870.1155741631182.JavaMail.root fepweb08> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 8:20:31 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: New Segway Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Richard, Regarding your recent comments to Mike, specifically: ... > The poor dumb Muslim nations are so far back in the mire > of the 6th century that they know they are being used by > big petro but they dont know what to do about it except > blow themselves up attempting to get even. Those "poor dumb Muslim nations" are not so poor anymore. They are getting richer by the day - every time we go to the station to fill our vehicles with that controversial black gold. Also, it seems to me that these "poor dumb Muslim nations" have learned pretty quick on how to get even with us. They are blowing up as many of us as they can while blowing themselves up. As long as we continue to indirectly finance their holy jihads... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionwork From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 09:31:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GGUwBR004719; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:30:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GGUpEK004616; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:30:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:30:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:29:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <001001c6c140$345f5b10$0100007f xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+1NnGxOAN9lx0mbY6FqgAw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_+1NnGxOAN9lx0mbY6FqgAw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT blah blah Americans...First Capitalists .... last Christians! Harry RC Macaulay wrote: Mike Carrell wrote.. Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as opposed to equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces equal poverty for all. Howdy Mike, Ah! The law of unintended consequenses. You may add to the equation the " derivative" consequence. This strange "critter" has morphed into a near uncontrollable super virus that eats anything that approaches it for security, balance, offset, hedge or a host of excuses to foster the great game. Derivatives are now indispensible to the world financial system. Rummy was certainly right in his statement... " deficits no longer matter". A truism when you think about it. SEC was spoiling to "regulate" the beast until the very wise of the world led them aside and explained the facts of life to them. The poor dumb Muslim nations are so far back in the mire of the 6th century that they know they are being used by big petro but they dont know what to do about it except blow themselves up attempting to get even.Ever notice that many of the firebrand leaders in these natiions were educated in Moscow back in their glory days... take for example.. Saddam Hussian,, hmmm. Scratch the surface of the lot and notice they are first Marxist and last Muslin clerics. The problem with wanting to play in the world's poker game of life is the need to constantly remind yourself the house wins because they hold the odds which causes you bet against yourself. --Boundary_(ID_+1NnGxOAN9lx0mbY6FqgAw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products blah blah
Americans...First Capitalists .... last Christians!

Harry

RC Macaulay wrote:

Mike Carrell wrote..
Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as opposed to =
equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces equal =
poverty for all.

Howdy Mike,

Ah! The law of unintended consequenses. You may add to the equation the &qu= ot; derivative" consequence. This strange "critter" has morph= ed into a near uncontrollable super virus that eats anything that approaches= it for security, balance, offset, hedge or a host of excuses to foster the = great game. Derivatives are now indispensible to the world financial system.= Rummy was certainly right in his statement... " deficits no longer mat= ter". A truism when you think about it. SEC was spoiling to "regul= ate" the beast until the very wise of the world led them aside and expl= ained the facts of life to them. The poor dumb Muslim nations are so far bac= k in the mire of the 6th century that they know they are being used by big p= etro but they dont know what to do about it except blow themselves up attemp= ting to get even.Ever notice that many of the firebrand leaders in these nat= iions were educated in Moscow back in their glory days... take for example..= Saddam Hussian,, hmmm. Scratch the surface of the lot and notice they are f= irst Marxist and last Muslin clerics.

The problem with wanting to play in the world's poker game of life is the n= eed to constantly remind yourself the house wins because they hold the odds = which causes  you bet against yourself.

--Boundary_(ID_+1NnGxOAN9lx0mbY6FqgAw)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 10:28:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GHSaMU006155; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:28:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GHSZJb006136; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:28:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:28:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:27:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <002901c6c133$c2fef720$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >> A mainly capitalist world is what America wants is it not? > > Ah, that nasty word "capitalist". It has a different meaning to European > intellectuals than to the origins and thrust of the US economy. Capital is a > concentration of resources to allow future work or development. A farmer who > retains a portion of each year's crop to plant the next is using his > 'profits' and is a 'capitalist'. Farmers who combine resources to build > silos for storage of crops for future sales are 'capitalists'. What Marx and > other socialists railed against in England was the landed gentry of feudal > traditions who became factory owners and exploited workers as they did > tenant farmers, using their unearned wealth to build an industrial society > which indirectly benefits everyone. > > The early US took a different direction, where businessmen were part of the > community. That story was well told by Bruckberger in his 1959 "Image of > America", addressed to European intellectuals. The real revolution of the > 20th century was not the Bolshevik but the day Henry Ford decided to pay his > workers $5 for an 8 hour day, sharing the increased efficiency of his mass > production methods. It was unprecedented at the time, enabling his workers > to become customers and own automobiles. He was sued by the Dodge Brothers > for mismanagement [they covered their losses in the automobile business by > their income from Ford stock]. In the trial, Ford was asked if he motive was > not profit. His reply was that his motive was to make a useful, affordable > car and if he did that he could not help make money. > > What has happened since is complex; mass production brought its own social > problems which took time to work out. Today, actual ownership of US business > is diffused through perhaps 50% of the population through direct investment, > but also insurance and retirement plans. > > Harry is perhaps confusing 'capitalism' with a 'market economy'. It is the > latter, and free trade, which the US promotes. This releases individual > entrepreneurial energy and provides many ways for the able and ambitious > person to grow which is stifled by autocratic systems of whatever kind. One > imitative by 'capitalists' in the US is a system of microloans to people in > developing countries which enable villagers to start small businesses on the > road to independence. > > Or, Harry, would you prefer continuing government doles and continued > dependence on a bureaucracy? Ah, that word "independence". Real independence means one is free to choose a form of dependency which suits them. He who "earns" a living is dependent on the state to provide him with a place of competition. Capitalists confound moral independence with financial independence. There is no freedom and no true prosperity where everyone in a world where everyone is obligated to compete in order to live. >> >>> Or protecting Japan with a military shield >>> so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and >>> becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a >>> stable >>> economy so the US becomes a preferred repository for wealth so that we >>> become increasingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing >>> empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto >>> manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, >>> as >>> 'outsourcing empire'? >> >> So what? The British Empire had slums at home. > > Do you advocate policies which guarantee equality of outcome as opposed to > equality opportunity? Be careful of what you wish for, that produces equal > poverty for all. Sure, I value equality of opportunity. However you forget that opportunities are politically engineered, so the provision of opportunities for the pursuit of happiness overlaps but is not identical with the provision of opportunities for the accumulation of capital. harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 12:07:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GJ75w4006518; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:07:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GJ736D006501; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:07:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:07:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009801c6c167$27104dd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:06:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6bDB1B.A.YlB.Xz24EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism Status: O X-Status: Big problem if the "terrorists" are home-grown and living on Penn. Ave: https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664231179 Looks like even some portion of the Religious right - the traditional Neo-Con power-base, have removed their blinders and are starting to turn against the man they elected .... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 12:38:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GJcGMk026385; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GJcFAZ026358; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:38:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: ThomasClark123 aol.com Message-ID: <53c.5fdfb77.3214ce1c aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:38:04 EDT Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: physics of the expanding Earth Theory To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1155757084" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5059 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1155757084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/16/2006 2:53:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy usfamily.net writes: > His solution is the expanding Earth Theory. His website has a series > of pictures showing how he believes this happened. The pictures look > good, but he is a professional artist. > > Then he mentioned subatomic particles. This webpage gives an > explanation of why this happened. > > http://www.nealadams.com/PhysicsOfGrow.html Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves available at http://www.tfcbooks.com/mall/more/610sw.htm, gives the math, and physics behind the Expanding Earth Theory, which he claims is due to neutrinos interacting with the Earth's crust by means of cold fusion to create more Earth and expand the planet. He gives exact expansion rates also. Best Regards, Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron President Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.html Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/ Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others -------------------------------1155757084 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 8/16/2006 2:53:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy= usfamily.net writes:
> His solution is the expanding Earth Theor= y. His website has a series
> of pictures showing how he believes thi= s happened. The pictures look
> good, but he is a professional artist= .
>
> Then he mentioned subatomic particles. This webpage gives=20= an
> explanation of why this happened.
>
> http://www.nea= ladams.com/PhysicsOfGrow.html
Konstantine Meyl in his book Scalar Waves available at http://www.tfcbooks.com/mall/more/610sw.htm, gives=20= the math, and physics behind the Expanding Earth Theory, which he claim= s is due to neutrinos interacting with the Earth's crust by means of cold fu= sion to create more Earth and expand the planet. He gives exact expansion ra= tes also.
 
Best Regards,
 
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baron
Pres= ident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/e= mailform.html,
Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.= com/personal.html
Architectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/ae
= Star Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/sh
Radiation Heal= th Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/
Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/bar= on

Making a difference one person at a time
Get informed= . Inform others
-------------------------------1155757084-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 12:47:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GJlTnk031950; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:47:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GJlRNY031915; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:47:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:47:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c001c6c16c$cb9e8470$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:47:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <9a4XKD.A.TyH.OZ34EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Plant Polluters Status: O X-Status: Not just the "refinery plant" but the "plant-plant" ... The startling news that trees and other plants give off large quantities of methane, which is the most worrisome greenhouse gas: more so than CO2 - took biologists and atmospheric chemists by surprise in January. The biggest worry of many environmental scientists is still a massive methane release from thawing of arctic permafrost due to global warming - but it appears that even the jungle and the forest are bigger polluters than you mat have realized ... (unless you have been to the Smoky Mountains in the Southeastern USA in the summer). Note: this does not diminish the blame we should assign to human pollution. Following the January announcement, scientists had criticized the way that the results, obtained from small laboratory-based experiments, were scaled up to produce an estimate of global methane emissions from plants. Scientists involved with the original research have fine-tuned their calculations and set an upper limit on green-plants' total methane emissions that almost halves their original estimate, but it is still about a quarter of the net methane... http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/August/16080601.asp The problem remains that methane from Permafrost melting could create a "runaway" scenario, which computer models have shown to be a real possibility within 25-30 years. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 14:36:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GLa9hh029916; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:36:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GLa67r029877; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:36:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:36:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OX2/S8C2+mUZjGmklvtqnzCCfd3GqtmihhX7XV1gS0vGe2iWvETuKpkROZsyHY9oV8l4ZH/Q58uxIcMpjx7tUQLfzGakw6AEaY0aIo1KsomaBMpDGFLzYexruAmMrUO2FY/kbvQu+cIZtoBh4kjQvHWUjRjDZb6P672uxh6Gekg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:36:03 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Plant Polluters In-Reply-To: <00c001c6c16c$cb9e8470$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <00c001c6c16c$cb9e8470$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/16/06, Jones Beene wrote: > The startling news that trees and other plants give off large > quantities of methane, which is the most worrisome greenhouse gas: > more so than CO2 - took biologists and atmospheric chemists by > surprise in January. I make a sizeable contribution myself . . . especially after refried beans. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 16:07:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7GN6WwK021254; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:06:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7GN6UfR021229; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:06:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:06:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kI230jIRrq+Hhyl5bD3zX7S+412ZerKd0ouTCBg1m6RCyRu/Iq23Q8NNsf5gEMEW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <417-22006831623614635 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:06:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94068c3afdd0464949245729417dee2274f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg13502.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/20/2006 5:13:25 AM Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE 16,712,949Electrochemical synthesis of hydrogen peroxide 26,592,840Highly pure aqueous hydrogen peroxide solutions, method for producing same and their use 36,368,488Modified platinum substrates for oxygen reduction 46,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition 55,645,700Polymer membrane based electrolytic cell and process for the direct generation of hydrogen peroxide in liquid streams 65,378,436Method and apparatus for producing hydrogen peroxide 75,112,702Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifHAJNyU1dei.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifHAJNyU1dei.gif Content-Id: <410-220068316236119118 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifaSqFIDxel4.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifaSqFIDxel4.gif Content-Id: <184671-220068316236119119 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifw6aVJ3IahS.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifw6aVJ3IahS.gif Content-Id: <63342-2200683162361192110 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif Content-Id: <265003-2200683162361192111 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifzzVnzPwbwi.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifzzVnzPwbwi.gif Content-Id: <191694-2200683162361192112 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifPDqHWxslVU.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifPDqHWxslVU.gif Content-Id: <157245-2200683162361192113 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifFy2tM8kZXC.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifFy2tM8kZXC.gif Content-Id: <114786-2200683162361192114 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 17:11:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H0BIJQ028075; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:11:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H0BG8I028048; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:11:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:11:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011501c6c191$a4c0b830$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <417-22006831623614635 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:11:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0112_01C6C156.F7B17BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0112_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once again proving ----> that Fred is a man who is way ahead of his = time... Leading one to suspect that we would already be out of the energy crisis = - IF - years ago that earlier brain storm - the diesel powered = pogo-stick - had become a fad with teenagers, like the hula-hoop or = Frisbee. OTOH, if that had happened ... Fred might have taken all the millions = and partnered up with Forbes on the New Mexico Balloon Races...=20 .... that is what usually happens to "Capitalist Tools", no? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg13502.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l Sent: 5/20/2006 5:13:25 AM=20 Subject: Re: Hydrogen Peroxide Powered ICE 1 6,712,949 Electrochemical synthesis of hydrogen peroxide =20 2 6,592,840 Highly pure aqueous hydrogen peroxide solutions, = method for producing same and their use =20 3 6,368,488 Modified platinum substrates for oxygen reduction =20 4 6,255,009 Combined cycle power generation using controlled = hydrogen peroxide decomposition =20 5 5,645,700 Polymer membrane based electrolytic cell and = process for the direct generation of hydrogen peroxide in liquid streams = =20 6 5,378,436 Method and apparatus for producing hydrogen = peroxide =20 7 5,112,702 Electrochemical synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0112_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Once again proving ----> that Fred is a man = who is way=20 ahead of his time...
 
Leading one to suspect that we would already be = out of the=20 energy crisis - IF - years ago <g> that earlier brain storm - = the=20 diesel powered pogo-stick - had become a fad with teenagers, like the = hula-hoop=20 or Frisbee.
 
OTOH, if that had happened ... Fred might = have taken=20 all the millions and partnered up with Forbes on the New Mexico Balloon = Races...=20
 
.... that is what usually happens to "Capitalist = Tools",=20 no?
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
 

 
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l eskimo.com/msg13502.html
 
----- Original Message = -----=20
To: vortex-l
Sent: 5/20/2006 = 5:13:25 AM=20
Subject: Re: = Hydrogen=20 Peroxide Powered ICE

1 6,712,949 3DFull-Text Electrochemical synthesis = of hydrogen=20 peroxide
2 6,592,840 3DFull-Text=20 Highly pure aqueous hydrogen = peroxide=20 solutions, method for producing same and their use =
3 6,368,488 3DFull-Text=20 Modified platinum substrates for = oxygen=20 reduction
4 6,255,009 3DFull-Text Combined cycle power = generation using=20 controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition =
5 5,645,700 3DFull-Text=20 Polymer membrane based = electrolytic cell and=20 process for the direct generation of hydrogen peroxide in liquid = streams=20
6 5,378,436 3DFull-Text=20 Method and apparatus for = producing hydrogen=20 peroxide
7 5,112,702 3DFull-Text Electrochemical synthesis = of H.sub.2=20 O.sub.2=20
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_001_0112_01C6C156.F7B17BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifHAJNyU1dei.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010a01c6c191$a3f15a40$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifaSqFIDxel4.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010b01c6c191$a3f3a430$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifw6aVJ3IahS.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010c01c6c191$a3f3a430$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gif6uK3y42ipZ.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010d01c6c191$a3f3a430$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifzzVnzPwbwi.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010e01c6c191$a3f3a430$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifPDqHWxslVU.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <010f01c6c191$a3f61530$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifFy2tM8kZXC.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <011001c6c191$a3f61530$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0111_01C6C156.F7B17BF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 17:37:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H0b3at013309; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:37:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H0b1d6013278; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:37:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:37:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:36:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > ..and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it > is worth giving up their lives? Because, if you decided to put them up to most standards of psychology, they are crazy, and train their young to join in the collective madness. >>then we are also justified. We >>were attacked, > > . yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it? I can see where this is going... > There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag" > operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the > ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself - > thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even > if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq > who had nothing to do with it anyway. Even if Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with this (which is by no means certain, or put another way, has more chance of being true than 9-11-01 being orchestrated by the "Illuminati") they still would have needed to be dealt with at some point. I am sort of against the war at this point, little is being accomplished, we have not crippled enough enemy effectiveness, and we continue to lose the lives of our own. Unless we are willing to go in with all guns blazing, and level the whole place, at this point we are looking at nothing but a civil war. I hope I am wrong, and that it becomes a stable democracy. But I do not harbor much hope at this point. > America lost about 3000 people in the WTC. > This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:- War's hell, ain't it? > ...and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and > "doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not, > there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them. What would your administration have done if 9-11-01 had been carried out specifically on your people? > ..and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel > exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that > violence will resolve the problem. Violence will solve it if the other side is dead. Then there is peace by definition. >Ever heard of a Pyrrhic > victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you > both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). > Regards, To use the "fire" derivative of pyrrhic and to the farthest extreme, it wouldn't, if we act now. Maybe for them, as we have enough nuclear weapons to sterilize the place if need be. If it gets so far gone that we have had Islamic radicals detonate nuclear weapons on our (American) soil, hopefully someone will have the guts to retaliate massively. Or, to clarify, "nuke" the whole bloody place. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 18:21:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H1Klom003518; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:20:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H1Kk21003490; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:20:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:18:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Lee Smolin on "A Crisis in Fundamental Physics" In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_9BNQB.A.Z2.sR84EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For me the roots of the crisis reach back 400+ years to the philosophical/psycho-social foundations of the science of motion known as "mechanics". Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/14/06, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> A recent article by Lee Smolin entitled "A Crisis >> in Fundamental Physics" >> >> http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnbound.asp?UpdateID=41 > > Excellent article Harry. I believe it is most certainly on topic. > This is the very attitude which drove Hotson from studying physics: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf > > > > The Hotson "family business" is English literature. Mr. Hotson's > father and uncle had Harvard Ph.D.s in the subject, and his late uncle > was a famous Shakespeare scholar. Mr. Hotson, however, always intended > a career in physics. Unfortunately, he could not resist asking awkward > questions. His professors taught that conservation of mass-energy is > the never-violated, rock-solid foundation of all physics. In "pair > production" a photon of at least 1.022 MeV "creates" an > electron-positron pair, each with 0.511 MeV of rest energy, with any > excess being the momentum of the "created" pair. So supposedly the > conservation books balance. > > But the "created" electron and positron both have spin (angular > momentum) energy of h/4p. By any assumption as to the size of electron > or positron, this is far more energy than that supplied by the photon > at "creation." > > "Isn't angular momentum energy?" he asked a professor. > > "Of course it is. This half-integer spin angular momentum is the > energy needed by the electron to set up a stable standing wave around > the proton. Thus it is responsible for the Pauli exclusion principle, > hence for the extension and stability of all matter. You could say it > is the sole cause of the periodic table of elements." "Then where does > all this energy come from? How can the 'created' electron have > something like sixteen times more energy than the photon that > supposedly 'created' it? Isn't this a huge violation of your > never-violated rock-solid foundation of all physics?" > > "We regard spin angular momentum as an 'inherent property' of electron > and positron, not as a violation of conservation." > > "But if it's real energy, where does it come from? Does the Energy > Fairy step in and proclaim a miracle every time 'creation' is invoked, > billions of times a second? How does this fit your never-violated > conservation?" > > "'Inherent property' means we don't talk about it, and you won't > either if you want to pass this course." > > Well, this answer sounded to him like the Stephen Leacock aphorism: > "'Shut up,' he explained." Later Mr. Hotson was taken aside and told > that his "attitude" was disrupting the class, and that further, with > his "attitude," there was no chance in hell of his completing a > graduate program in physics, so "save your money." He ended up at the > Sorbonne studying French literature, and later became a professional > land surveyor. However, he has retained a lifelong interest in the > "awkward questions" of physics, and with Dirac's Equation has found > some answers. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 19:23:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H2NdSl003217; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:23:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H2NYA6003171; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:23:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:23:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=axNyjHeJ+GCnH6+2Hvq4tko4HVUwXDXVb4Nof5N1qKjJ+QvS12HsQYt49w/OWVwAI+D+HQilK2w6l1HmD/SuBuMtorj1dWDNkdzs4aYesLjEt8q2kwtBqZSYMlqvpArtsGNbs2kHm/tiSeYr68xlSTBXe4/VBJIkLNdlWmKswFk= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:23:33 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_253295_24275454.1155781413161" References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_253295_24275454.1155781413161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>I am sort of against the war at this point Bright chap eh? ;) Your 'sort of' against the war at this point? I bet Bush is 'sort of' against the war at this point. You should be generally against war (state sponsored murder) anyway but against this war where the US attacked a nation not threatening the US or anyone else that had demonstrably no significant weapons. It has left the Iraqi people (the ones left) clearly worse off than they were before the war, killed a #%$ load of them by any estimate, killed what must be nearing as many dead US soldiers as people died in 911 (not that the 2 are linked in any way) October last year there were 2,000 dead Soldiers, actually the thing is that is the number they admit to dying in iraq, it doesn't count the 40,000 wounded some of which died after leaving iraq, so in all probability it will be well above 3,000 by now. The US has been further disgraced by their solders being creepy, torturing prisoners... Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars. What was the point of the war again? Yeah I'm 'sort of' against the war in iraq too. On 8/17/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > > ..and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it > > is worth giving up their lives? > > Because, if you decided to put them up to most standards of psychology, > they > are crazy, and train their young to join in the collective madness. > > >>then we are also justified. We > >>were attacked, > > > > . yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it? > > I can see where this is going... > > > There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag" > > operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the > > ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself - > > thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even > > if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq > > who had nothing to do with it anyway. > > Even if Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with this (which is by no means > certain, or put another way, has more chance of being true than 9-11-01 > being orchestrated by the "Illuminati") they still would have needed to > be > dealt with at some point. I am sort of against the war at this point, > little > is being accomplished, we have not crippled enough enemy effectiveness, > and > we continue to lose the lives of our own. Unless we are willing to go in > with all guns blazing, and level the whole place, at this point we are > looking at nothing but a civil war. I hope I am wrong, and that it becomes > a > stable democracy. But I do not harbor much hope at this point. > > > America lost about 3000 people in the WTC. > > This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:- > > > > War's hell, ain't it? > > > ...and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and > > "doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not, > > there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them. > > What would your administration have done if 9-11-01 had been carried out > specifically on your people? > > > ..and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel > > exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that > > violence will resolve the problem. > > Violence will solve it if the other side is dead. Then there is peace by > definition. > > >Ever heard of a Pyrrhic > > victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you > > both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). > > Regards, > > To use the "fire" derivative of pyrrhic and to the farthest extreme, it > wouldn't, if we act now. Maybe for them, as we have enough nuclear weapons > to sterilize the place if need be. If it gets so far gone that we have had > Islamic radicals detonate nuclear weapons on our (American) soil, > hopefully > someone will have the guts to retaliate massively. Or, to clarify, "nuke" > the whole bloody place. > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_253295_24275454.1155781413161 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>I am sort of against the war at this point

Bright chap eh? ;)

Your 'sort of' against the war at this point? I bet Bush is 'sort of' against  the war at this point.

You should be generally against war (state sponsored murder) anyway but against this war where the US attacked a nation not threatening the US or anyone else that had demonstrably no significant weapons.

It has left the Iraqi people (the ones left) clearly worse off than they were before the war, killed a #%$ load of them by any estimate, killed what must be nearing as many dead US soldiers as people died in 911 (not that the 2 are linked in any way)

October last year there were 2,000 dead Soldiers, actually the thing is that is the number they admit to dying in iraq, it doesn't count the 40,000 wounded some of which died after leaving iraq, so in all probability it will be well above 3,000 by now.

The US has been further disgraced by their solders being creepy, torturing prisoners...

Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars.

What was the point of the war again?

Yeah I'm 'sort of' against the war in iraq too.


On 8/17/06, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
---- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

> ..and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it
> is worth giving up their lives?

Because, if you decided to put them up to most standards of psychology, they
are crazy, and train their young to join in the collective madness.

>>then we are also justified. We
>>were attacked,
>
> . yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it?

I can see where this is going...

> There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag"
> operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the
> ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself -
> thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even
> if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq
> who had nothing to do with it anyway.

Even if Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with this (which is by no means
certain, or put another way, has more chance of being true than 9-11-01
being orchestrated by the "Illuminati")  they still would have needed to be
dealt with at some point. I am sort of against the war at this point, little
is being accomplished, we have not crippled enough enemy effectiveness, and
we continue to lose the lives of our own. Unless we are willing to go in
with all guns blazing, and level the whole place, at this point we are
looking at nothing but a civil war. I hope I am wrong, and that it becomes a
stable democracy. But I do not harbor much hope at this point.

> America lost about 3000 people in the WTC.
> This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:-

<snip many 3000s>

War's hell, ain't it?

> ...and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and
> "doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not,
> there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them.

What would your administration have done if 9-11-01 had been carried out
specifically on your people?

> ..and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel
> exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that
> violence will resolve the problem.

Violence will solve it if the other side is dead. Then there is peace by
definition.

>Ever heard of a Pyrrhic
> victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you
> both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be).
> Regards,

To use the "fire" derivative of pyrrhic and to the farthest extreme, it
wouldn't, if we act now. Maybe for them, as we have enough nuclear weapons
to sterilize the place if need be. If it gets so far gone that we have had
Islamic radicals detonate nuclear weapons on our (American) soil, hopefully
someone will have the guts to retaliate massively. Or, to clarify, "nuke"
the whole bloody place.

--Kyle


------=_Part_253295_24275454.1155781413161-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 19:41:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H2ekmm013548; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:40:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H2ejVw013528; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:40:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:40:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Plant Polluters Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:40:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7kl7e25rmuvmtjh5tddf1mc90rduijr8b3 4ax.com> References: <00c001c6c16c$cb9e8470$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00c001c6c16c$cb9e8470$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:40:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7H2ecP4013445 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:47:23 -0700: Hi, [snip] >The problem remains that methane from Permafrost melting could >create a "runaway" scenario, which computer models have shown to >be a real possibility within 25-30 years. > >Jones Since the permafrost is already melting, the methane is already being released, and hence the feedback loop has already begun. However it may take as long as they predict to become really noticeable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 20:14:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H3E99i032669; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:14:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H3E7vS032629; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:14:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:14:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:14:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01c6c0d5$1f63f790$0f027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Aug 2006 03:14:01 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7H3E3P4032558 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:38:22 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 8/16/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Let them all in. With CF Australia would easily support the same >> population as the US. The huge decrease in population density and >> increase in standard of living that ensued for the "teaming >> hordes" would cool their fervor. > >And you will adopt the beliefs of the avatar Mohammed? Or will you >die defending your own? You have but two choices. Nonsense. There are already many Muslims living in Australia, and if left in peace, they tend to leave others in peace as well. You appear to be ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Muslims World wide are moderate peace loving people. Also there are many nations where religious minorities live in harmony with the majority. As said previously, if the average man on the street has a reasonable chance to provide for his family, and is treated fairly and equitably by the society in which he finds himself, he rarely turns to extremism. There are of course a few exceptions who become extremists, but these are a small minority. The size of this minority increases when the innocent are bombed along with the guilty. This is the problem with bombs - however delivered. Any defeat of terrorism has to start with removing the underlying injustices which are the root cause of anger. Religion has frequently been used as a means of justifying an action that one is motivated to perform anyway, however the deep psychological motivation is usually not religious. Frequently those involved do not even realize this themselves, which is why one can't always rely on what they say their reasons are. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 20:24:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H3O8Ka005007; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:24:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H3O1m4004955; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:24:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:24:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060816202737.0318c6b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:28:03 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0YR7IB.A.FNB.QF-4EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: EPRI Video 1989 Status: O X-Status: >http://newenergytimes.com/Video/EPRI1989/EPRI1989.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 20:28:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H3SAAr006937; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:28:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H3S8va006909; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:28:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:28:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:26:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Stopping Terrorism Status: O X-Status: Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it. -- Noam Chomsky From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 20:39:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H3cvBT012745; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:38:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H3crtG012710; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:38:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:38:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=DjoLRuhM+FXuspkGMJflvMkVQS8GQ/nRn5Z4ZDixZBxJDteJ/kHxpRVCPMFD4lozLc6GXPXwlIhM0Rq35Z+gohLZTuo6X/K3boW3gJGNbbmhl/DZPAU5sWR69luY/ijJjmBcWAXZjfB+EI1cXzqOdusDsT+upOaJ+Hl9VZ96o+w= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:38:51 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_681_18310395.1155785931395" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_681_18310395.1155785931395 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Folks, I seen to comment ... but there does not seem to be much interaction... I can wonder? Are my comments connected to the not correct letter-article ?? Not of interest? WELL... To contiue, .and I do not wish to address ALL of the below, but hope to connect with experimentalists.... as oppose to ''armchair' physics...and fully admit to dyslexia and not good typing skills.... Please see comments in text.... uh...test... below BBGB .and so on On 7/26/06, John Berry wrote: > -Resent (from different email address) because other one had problems.- > Dear John Berry, ...do NOT take this wrong... I have been sent.. and resent.. and some of what I have sent has been part of a resented ... ahhh welll, not directed toward you.... I resent only that fragment of the work of Vos who rest their arms on their chair arms.... so to speak.... AGAIN: A commnet on the text, not a comment on the author > As there haven't been any replies to my previous post (Bifilar coil > attracting a charge and Faraday motor no lenz), I'm left wondering why, > was it not understood? > Q: What is are "it" that was not understood? Can we PLEASE have a simple direct URL for beginners that will or would define or be a primer to work from that would address: Attributes and effects associated with for to and of: BIFILAR Lenz Farady Motor [more than one... unless there is only one] ======== Was an obvious fault seen that didn't seem worthy > of reply? > What fault? Was it understood and no fault was found leaving people scratching their > head or was it simply not read? (Or am I impatient?) > I too would like to be scratching my head.... but about what?? Does anyne disagree that if you travel parallel to a wire carrying a DC > current and your direction of movement is against the electron drift, > the EMF felt by charges (i.e your body) moving through that magnetic > field (mutually perpendicular to your motion and the B field, hence a > radial 'motional e-field' ala Hooper and is the same that induces a DC > voltage in a Faraday Generator) should not increase no matter what speed > you move along the wire because just as the EMF from the electrons does > increase, all but a constant portion is canceled by the EMF from the > unbalanced moving (in your reference frame) protons. > May we PLEASE have the primers of of of on the above eg, particles, persons and effects.... ======== VERY IMPORTANT ...especially if I wish to use same to help teach the young the old the indefferent the ugly and the ignorant... of which I personally good to fit in ALL of these groups... If I may ask for an analysis of what should happen if the above > experiment were done. > As far as I can see however because the magnetic field is produced by > the protons and electrons (if this were not so rotating an electromagnet > on it's axis would greatly increase it's magnetic field) then the EMF > induced will always be the difference between the electrons and protons > which is always be the same regardless of the speed at which you move > parallel to the current. (unless you move with the electrons in which > case the EMF would decrease to zero at 50% of the electron drift > velocity as you would then have electrons and protons moving in opposite > directions, increasing till at the electron drift velocity you would see > the same strength EMF as standing still except the EMF polarity is > reversed) > AND and can anyone help us to operate a BBGB of the above?? Our ..or at leat my great thanks for persons asking the questions and citing at least some of the questions, experimentalism etc.... > If this is the case then I'm pretty sure that the coil arrangement I > mentioned in the last post would work and either way it would mean a > Faraday motor with no lenz force would be possible. > PLEASE ... will ANY vo help us toward a composite glossary to help ALL of us to arrive at a common... and hopefully useful ..set of terms so we do not waste the years many have in re defining terms when several persons, groups... et al.... all may have a DIFFERENT idea about which=what is... are--- may or might mean?? (Gur bayl jnl V pna frr guvf abg jbexvat vf vs zbivat cnfg n punetr > qbrfa'g perngr n zntargvp svryq, ohg vg vf xabja gung ebgngvat n punetrq > qvfx qbrf perngr n zntargvp svryq, guvf jbhyq erdhver na nrgure, n > punetrf zbgvba guebhtu juvpu jbhyq unir vg cebqhpr n zntargvp svryq ohg > abg frr n punetr fgngvbanel gb gur nrgure nf cebqhpvat n zntargvp svryq) > > > > > I had some further ideas as writing this, the best stuff is found after: > > > ***Faraday!!*** > > > May we all have define of the below... as well as the above??? Hmmm? > Due to the 'motional e-field' or pancaking of the electric field of the > > electron drift in a wire a positive charge or charged object should be > > attracted and a negatively charged one repelled, the moving electrons > > also should see the stationary charges as moving for them their > > reference frame > > > > <==> coil > > <==> charged disk > > > > This would work even if the coil is canceling bifilar. > > But the magnitude of attraction would be rather small of course as it is > > the worst of both worlds as the number of unbalanced charges on the disk > > are far fewer than the number of conducting electrons in a wire and the > > drift velocity is very slow, so it would be of the same strength as if > > the disk was rotated at electron drift velocity which would be a very > > sad B field. > > > > But one question that comes to mind, would a charged disk feel a self > > inductance resistance to and acceleration or deceleration as a coil > > producing a similar field would find? If the answer is yes and assuming > > the answer would be yes for any charged object accelerating (could this > > be how Woodward works? could it be that the magnetic field from a > > charged cap accelerating creates self inductance? It would act as it it > > has gained inertial mass when charged) then why wouldn't all matter feel > > > this self induced resistance to acceleration/deceleration (sure from a > > distance charge balanced matter is neutral but on a microscopic atomic > > scale the moving charges would create an abundance of tiny magnetic > > fields), besides inertia (it would be cool if this was the cause of > > inertial mass of course but that would give electrons and protons the > > same inertial mass and neutrons would have none) no such force is > > measured so does this mean that self inductance doesn't occur in these > > situations? Does an electron accelerated in a particle accelerator feel > > any self inductance or normal inertia only? > > > > If it is possible to establish a magnetic field without penalty however > > then it is possible to spin up a charged disk and because there was no > > energy invested in producing the magnetic field any energy tapped by say > > > a coil (said coil being open circuit as it was spun up) as the disk is > > stopped would seemingly be free?????? > > > > I don't even want to get into the pinch effect. > > > > ***Faraday!!*** > > > > As for the Faraday motor, consider what would happen if you started > > running along a long wire against the electron drift, if you weren't > > moving, the moving electrons would be passing you at 1 m/s (I just > > searched and found Beaty arguing that indeed the speed is something > > around that fast) and the protons would of course be stationary, so if > > you start to run against the drift at say 1m/s then the electrons > > composing the current are now passing you at 2 m/s and the protons at 1 > > m/s, still a difference of 1 m/s and no matter how fast you move that's > > all it will be, just as much as if you weren't moving at all. > > So at this point you can look at it as flux cutting, in which case > > moving against the drift faster and faster doesn't produce a higher EMF > > because you are also cutting the flux produced by the protons as well, > > or you can look at it as pancaking fields of electrons and protons but > > either way you aren't going to get a higher voltage by speeding up. > > > > So what if we now built a Faraday motor out of copper only, no iron or > > permanent magnets. > > So take an electromagnet (big loop DC, copper only), it will be > > stationary, imagine your looking at it's N pole now with electron drift > > in a cw direction, take a copper disk on an axle (or pool of mercury) > > place it inside the hoop coil and apply a negative DC source to the > > center taking the current off at the edges with brushes, the disk will > > rotate in a ccw direction but there will be no back EMF, if you instead > > tried to use it in generator mode it simply would not work rotated in a > > ccw direction no voltage would be generated because the voltage induced > > in the disk would be equal and opposite to the voltage induced in the > > brushes and external circuit because the rotation has made no change! > > > > Here is another thought, if moving faster doesn't increase the force > > what if we put a very high resistance thin wire and a big fat wire (or a > > > multicore) of equal lengths, wound them together connecting them in > > series so that when a current is passed through they cancel creating no > > detectable B field. > > However while the same number of charges will be passing through any > > point of this strange coil the electron drift in one should be much > > faster but there should be fewer moving charges, they should see the > > magnetic field produced by the electromagnet in that Faraday motor > > differently! (lets say the fat part has 10,000 electrons moving at 1 m/s > > per mm of wire, the thin part having 1,000 electrons moving at 10,000 > > m/s per mm of wire, as the higher speed doesn't lead to increased EMF > > from cutting of the lines all that really matters is that there are 10 > > times more electron moving in the fat part creating x10 stronger force. > > (assuming that the coil (in this case the one we used for the Faraday > > motor) has the same electron drift speed as the fat part) > > > > > > So while this coil wouldn't create a magnetic field it would react to > > one, though at this moment I'm not sure the other coil would be > > effected!!!!! (unidirectional motion????????) > > > > Could it be that iron and permanent magnets have been screwing up up all > > this time? > > > > I'd love replies to this but please I haven't used any equations and > > would generally rather not get a reply in equation form or at least not > > the bulk of it. > > (unless it is well explained) > > ========================== Anyone feel up to the task? And... even better ... anyone feel up to shaming the woo woo sooo dooo sciiieee the many there may be.... to see if they will give us all some actual terms that can be verified? Be fun as a project.... I thing the collective VO could do it..... and it would probably be less diffcult than pushing a limp wet thread up hill while the surfaaaace is being continuaally lubriactioned by an ongoing input of the text we have lived with from Vo and Free Energy over the years... HEY... could be FUN to cast the chaff... and find if there is some rock beyond the brains that may seems to be rolling out of some ears over the years.... Thanks for the POST... ! A good place to start.... AGAIN! JH ------=_Part_681_18310395.1155785931395 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
Dear Folks,
 
 I seen to comment ... but there does not seem to be much interaction... I can wonder?
 
     Are my comments connected to the not correct letter-article
??  Not of interest?
 
 WELL...
 
  To contiue, .and I do not wish to address ALL of the below, but hope to connect with experimentalists.... as oppose to ''armchair' physics...and
 fully admit to dyslexia and not good typing skills....
 
 
 Please see comments in text.... uh...test... below  BBGB .and so on
On 7/26/06, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
-Resent (from different email address) because other one had problems.-
 
   Dear John Berry, ...do NOT take this wrong... I have been sent.. and resent.. and some of what I have sent has been part of a resented ... ahhh welll, not directed toward you....
 
  I resent only that fragment of the work of Vos who rest their arms on their chair arms.... so to speak....

 

  AGAIN:  A commnet on the text, not a comment on the author
 

 
As there haven't been any replies to my previous post (Bifilar coil
attracting a charge and Faraday motor no lenz), I'm left wondering why,
was it not understood?
 
  Q: What  is  are  "it" that was not understood?
 
    Can we PLEASE have a simple direct URL for beginners that will or would define or be a primer to work from that would address:
 
 Attributes and effects associated with for to and of:
 
 BIFILAR
 Lenz
 Farady Motor [more than one... unless there is only one]
 
========
 

Was an obvious fault seen that didn't seem worthy
of reply?
 
 
  What fault?
 

Was it understood and no fault was found leaving people scratching their
head or was it simply not read? (Or am I impatient?)
 
 
  I too would like to be scratching my head.... but about what??
 
 

Does anyne disagree that if you travel parallel to a wire carrying a DC
current and your direction of movement is against the electron drift,
the EMF felt by charges (i.e your body) moving through that magnetic
field (mutually perpendicular to your motion and the B field, hence a
radial 'motional e-field' ala Hooper and is the same that induces a DC
voltage in a Faraday Generator) should not increase no matter what speed
you move along the wire because just as the EMF from the electrons does
increase, all but a constant portion is canceled by the EMF from the
unbalanced moving (in your reference frame) protons.
 
 
   May we PLEASE have the primers of of  of on the above
 
  eg,  particles, persons and effects....
 
========
 
  VERY IMPORTANT ...especially if I wish to use same to help teach the young the old the indefferent the ugly and the ignorant... of which I personally good to fit in ALL of these groups...
 

If I may ask for an analysis of what should happen if the above
experiment were done.
As far as I can see however because the magnetic field is produced by
the protons and electrons (if this were not so rotating an electromagnet
on it's axis would greatly increase it's magnetic field) then the EMF
induced will always be the difference between the electrons and protons
which is always be the same regardless of the speed at which you move
parallel to the current. (unless you move with the electrons in which
case the EMF would decrease to zero at 50% of the electron drift
velocity as you would then have electrons and protons moving in opposite
directions, increasing till at the electron drift velocity you would see
the same strength EMF as standing still except the EMF polarity is reversed)
 
 
 AND and can anyone help us to operate a BBGB of the above??
 
   Our ..or at leat my great thanks for persons asking the questions and citing at least some of the questions, experimentalism etc....
 
If this is the case then I'm pretty sure that the coil arrangement I
mentioned in the last post would work and either way it would mean a
Faraday motor with no lenz force would be possible.
 
  PLEASE ... will ANY vo help us toward a composite glossary to help ALL of us to arrive at a common... and hopefully useful ..set of terms so we do not waste the years many have in re defining terms when several persons, groups... et al.... all may have a DIFFERENT idea about which=what  is... are--- may or might mean??
 

(Gur bayl jnl V pna frr guvf abg jbexvat vf vs zbivat cnfg n punetr
qbrfa'g perngr n zntargvp svryq, ohg vg vf xabja gung ebgngvat n punetrq
qvfx qbrf perngr n zntargvp svryq, guvf jbhyq erdhver na nrgure, n
punetrf zbgvba guebhtu juvpu jbhyq unir vg cebqhpr n zntargvp svryq ohg
abg frr n punetr fgngvbanel gb gur nrgure nf cebqhpvat n zntargvp svryq)



> I had some further ideas as writing this, the best stuff is found after:
> ***Faraday!!***
>
 
 
   May we all have define of the below... as well as the above??? Hmmm?
 
 

> Due to the 'motional e-field' or pancaking of the electric field of the
> electron drift in a wire a positive charge or charged object should be
> attracted and a negatively charged one repelled, the moving electrons
> also should see the stationary charges as moving for them their
> reference frame
>
> <==> coil
> <==> charged disk
>
> This would work even if the coil is canceling bifilar.
> But the magnitude of attraction would be rather small of course as it is
> the worst of both worlds as the number of unbalanced charges on the disk
> are far fewer than the number of conducting electrons in a wire and the
> drift velocity is very slow, so it would be of the same strength as if
> the disk was rotated at electron drift velocity which would be a very
> sad B field.
>
> But one question that comes to mind, would a charged disk feel a self
> inductance resistance to and acceleration or deceleration as a coil
> producing a similar field would find? If the answer is yes and assuming
> the answer would be yes for any charged object accelerating (could this
> be how Woodward works? could it be that the magnetic field from a
> charged cap accelerating creates self inductance? It would act as it it
> has gained inertial mass when charged) then why wouldn't all matter feel
> this self induced resistance to acceleration/deceleration (sure from a
> distance charge balanced matter is neutral but on a microscopic atomic
> scale the moving charges would create an abundance of tiny magnetic
> fields), besides inertia (it would be cool if this was the cause of
> inertial mass of course but that would give electrons and protons the
> same inertial mass and neutrons would have none) no such force is
> measured so does this mean that self inductance doesn't occur in these
> situations? Does an electron accelerated in a particle accelerator feel
> any self inductance or normal inertia only?
>
> If it is possible to establish a magnetic field without penalty however
> then it is possible to spin up a charged disk and because there was no
> energy invested in producing the magnetic field any energy tapped by say
> a coil (said coil being open circuit as it was spun up) as the disk is
> stopped would seemingly be free??????
>
> I don't even want to get into the pinch effect.
>
> ***Faraday!!***
>
> As for the Faraday motor, consider what would happen if you started
> running along a long wire against the electron drift, if you weren't
> moving, the moving electrons would be passing you at 1 m/s (I just
> searched and found Beaty arguing that indeed the speed is something
> around that fast) and the protons would of course be stationary, so if
> you start to run against the drift at say 1m/s then the electrons
> composing the current are now passing you at 2 m/s and the protons at 1
> m/s, still a difference of 1 m/s and no matter how fast you move that's
> all it will be, just as much as if you weren't moving at all.
> So at this point you can look at it as flux cutting, in which case
> moving against the drift faster and faster doesn't produce a higher EMF
> because you are also cutting the flux produced by the protons as well,
> or you can look at it as pancaking fields of electrons and protons but
> either way you aren't going to get a higher voltage by speeding up.
>
> So what if we now built a Faraday motor out of copper only, no iron or
> permanent magnets.
> So take an electromagnet (big loop DC, copper only), it will be
> stationary, imagine your looking at it's N pole now with electron drift
> in a cw direction, take a copper disk on an axle (or pool of mercury)
> place it inside the hoop coil and apply a negative DC source to the
> center taking the current off at the edges with brushes, the disk will
> rotate in a ccw direction but there will be no back EMF, if you instead
> tried to use it in generator mode it simply would not work rotated in a
> ccw direction no voltage would be generated because the voltage induced
> in the disk would be equal and opposite to the voltage induced in the
> brushes and external circuit because the rotation has made no change!
>
> Here is another thought, if moving faster doesn't increase the force
> what if we put a very high resistance thin wire and a big fat wire (or a
> multicore) of equal lengths, wound them together connecting them in
> series so that when a current is passed through they cancel creating no
> detectable B field.
> However while the same number of charges will be passing through any
> point of this strange coil the electron drift in one should be much
> faster but there should be fewer moving charges, they should see the
> magnetic field produced by the electromagnet in that Faraday motor
> differently! (lets say the fat part has 10,000 electrons moving at 1 m/s
> per mm of wire, the thin part having 1,000 electrons moving at 10,000
> m/s per mm of wire, as the higher speed doesn't lead to increased EMF
> from cutting of the lines all that really matters is that there are 10
> times more electron moving in the fat part creating x10 stronger force.
> (assuming that the coil (in this case the one we used for the Faraday
> motor) has the same electron drift speed as the fat part)
>
>
> So while this coil wouldn't create a magnetic field it would react to
> one, though at this moment I'm not sure the other coil would be
> effected!!!!! (unidirectional motion????????)
>
> Could it be that iron and permanent magnets have been screwing up up all
> this time?
>
> I'd love replies to this but please I haven't used any equations and
> would generally rather not get a reply in equation form or at least not
> the bulk of it.
> (unless it is well explained)
 

==========================
 
 Anyone feel up to the task?
 
 And... even better ... anyone feel up to shaming the woo woo sooo dooo sciiieee the many there may be.... to see if they will give us all some actual terms that can be verified?
 
 
         Be fun as a project....
 
    I thing the collective VO could do it..... and it would probably be less diffcult than pushing a limp wet thread up hill while the surfaaaace is being continuaally lubriactioned by an ongoing input of the text we have lived with from Vo and Free Energy over the years...
 
     HEY... could be FUN to cast the chaff... and find if there is some rock beyond the brains that may seems to be rolling out of some ears over the years....
 
     Thanks for the POST... !
 
  A good place to start.... AGAIN!
 
   JH
------=_Part_681_18310395.1155785931395-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 20:44:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H3iJeF015363; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:44:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H3iICu015351; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:44:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:44:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FlfZ10CN7rMSbVRmGURT0wtcLYFVWGJ2CWAfu77R9oyator6peOWs7rVeLPA8viw9aTdskhk/HeiR0vmw8/fH0Pe6SlUn7f83+D5GvhrOICtLyJHcl0GlaTEGYKZ35ANH5mdLaD+K+bdflgrf4SvdOPLqESWCdUPt8Tgyiolx4E= ; Message-ID: <20060817034416.3188.qmail web33313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Stopping Terrorism To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-462774328-1155786256=:2059" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-462774328-1155786256=:2059 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Finally, something I agree with. Chris Harry Veeder wrote: Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it. -- Noam Chomsky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-462774328-1155786256=:2059 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Finally, something I agree with.
 
Chris

Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy
way: stop participating in it.
-- Noam Chomsky


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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-462774328-1155786256=:2059-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 21:07:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H47HTx026831; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:07:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H47DoP026795; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:07:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:07:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: energy and practical operation [OPEN DISCUSSION ON TOPIC] Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:07:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.68] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:07:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7H47AWQ026718 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to john herman's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:47:31 -0400: Hi John, [snip] > 1] electrolysis of water, current, voltage, electrode types, >spacing and surface areas of electrodes, evolution of gases... what gasses. >From the public meetings I have recently attended, the consensus seems to be that the best electrode material is 316L stainless. Spacing about 3 mm. Per cell voltages vary considerably, but fall roughly into 3 categories: 1) 1.2-1.48 V 2) 2-3 V 3) kilovolts (different cell configuration). Both AC and DC are used. Current density ~34-39 mA/cm^2 (in the lower voltage cells). These people think they are producing "hydroxy" or "HOH" (whatever that is supposed to be). > > 1] (A) Water vapor and contribution of vapor > (B) Temperatures of reactions I don't think anyone gets that scientific. > > 2] Have any vo used catalytic action with-of -for lysis of >water A catalyst by definition doesn't change the amount of energy available from a reaction, only effecting the speed at which it runs. Therefore any material added to water that increases the rate of dissociation *without* requiring more electrical input must either be being consumed by the reaction (and is therefore not a catalyst), or must be catalyzing the release of pre-existing energy in the water itself. Of course, in the latter case, the nature of the catalyst may provide a clue as to the source of that purported pre-existing energy. Short answer - no. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 21:17:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H4HR08032425; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:17:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H4HPGG032395; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:17:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:17:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:15:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Plant Polluters In-reply-to: <7kl7e25rmuvmtjh5tddf1mc90rduijr8b3 4ax.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > A problem provides the motivation. Competition and/or cooperation provide the means. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 19:17:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7H2Gng3032259; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:16:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7H2GmnD032235; Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:16:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:16:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=omZY+5697UsobmkpMBqVcioCwM9Nd86UaJskefpnbGA5FbhQe9qlsMrQdPh4GTFnU+vEBRbVKRmg6W+pmggwsxOJrUUu28NX4fIiFhPsqpfyuC6AStpv6jfN4RtTGA+h931tYxkkwFAuLVAbkyT6z3ZdGLIdGPHga1PoZWzb7yE= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060816221512.01ee9e58 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:15:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <37yVIB.A.i3H.QG94EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: LOL!!! Kyle - you're not Mark Steyn's ghost writer are you? P. At 08:36 PM 8/16/2006 -0400, you wrote: >---- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:50 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > >>..and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it >>is worth giving up their lives? > >Because, if you decided to put them up to most standards of psychology, >they are crazy, and train their young to join in the collective madness. > >>>then we are also justified. We >>>were attacked, >> >>. yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it? > >I can see where this is going... > >>There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag" >>operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the >>ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself - >>thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even >>if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq >>who had nothing to do with it anyway. > >Even if Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with this (which is by no means >certain, or put another way, has more chance of being true than 9-11-01 >being orchestrated by the "Illuminati") they still would have needed to >be dealt with at some point. I am sort of against the war at this point, >little is being accomplished, we have not crippled enough enemy >effectiveness, and we continue to lose the lives of our own. Unless we are >willing to go in with all guns blazing, and level the whole place, at this >point we are looking at nothing but a civil war. I hope I am wrong, and >that it becomes a stable democracy. But I do not harbor much hope at this >point. > >>America lost about 3000 people in the WTC. >>This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:- > > > >War's hell, ain't it? > >>...and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and >>"doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not, >>there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them. > >What would your administration have done if 9-11-01 had been carried out >specifically on your people? > >>..and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel >>exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that >>violence will resolve the problem. > >Violence will solve it if the other side is dead. Then there is peace by >definition. > >>Ever heard of a Pyrrhic >>victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you >>both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be). >>Regards, > >To use the "fire" derivative of pyrrhic and to the farthest extreme, it >wouldn't, if we act now. Maybe for them, as we have enough nuclear weapons >to sterilize the place if need be. If it gets so far gone that we have had >Islamic radicals detonate nuclear weapons on our (American) soil, >hopefully someone will have the guts to retaliate massively. Or, to >clarify, "nuke" the whole bloody place. > >--Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 11:51:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HIeoGI011587; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:51:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HI0Mbx009040; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:00:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:00:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:25:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <4Eik4.A._MC.16K5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle wrote:- <> It's not a place so you can't target it, Kyle. It's an idea. There are countries where the idea is more concentrated but if you wish to wipe out the idea with nukes then you have to vaporise just about the whole world. Most of the suicide bombers and extremists who attend the legendary training camps come from outside the countries where the camps are supposed to be located. The recent plot in Britain to smuggle liquid explosive on to planes bound for the US was entirely "staffed" by British residents. Would you nuke Britain too? Most of the 911 terrorists/freedom fighters (depending on which side of the fence you are) were Saudis. The US backed Saudi dynasty (which is so extremely close to the Bush regime) is a MAJOR cause of the Islamic resentment. Osama's own family are a part of it and probably caused his extreme beliefs and so he is now pursuing jihad as some kind of twisted "family therapy". If the US had stopped backing this regime many events would not have occurred. But they didn't. Like characters from " Jackass", that accurate TV portrayal of the base character of too many Americans, the unpleasant, idiot jerks continued on. Change the bullying, greedy, "America first" way of politics and the problem will solve itself. Currently, America and Israel are the greatest threats to world stability with China a fair way behind. Elements of power in both America and Israel have still got this "Us first, and only us" mentality. Most of your West and East coasts were against the Iraq invasion in the first place. It was only the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck fundamentalist Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade. In the history of many of the older nations there was this colonialist view. Britain, Germany, Japan, France Portugal, Spain, Russia did it. We all fell for this "we are the most important country" rhetoric. Hopefully we have now grown up. For God's sake America, grow up too. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 11:51:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HIeoGK011587; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:51:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HHV6b5018936; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:31:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:31:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:42:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <002001c6c136$56b057f0$2002a8c0 BioLifeStyle5> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: An emerging food-fuel battle? Status: O X-Status: This speculation is by Hans Dieter. It comes from a different list. Harry > Subject: [4DWorldx] The emerging food-fuel battle > > Ethanol as additive to gasoline from crude oil has, as other alternative > fuels, for ex. biodiesel, gained popularity in some parts of Europe. It is not > only the environment conscience which is calmed down, it is also the price of > the usual > 50% ethanol added to premium gas which is kept independent of the price of > crude oil and therefore cheap. > The difference per liter of premium is presently 25 euro cents, or about 20% > No one has ever figured out how the competition of some biomass as food versus > the input to produce ethanol influences the price of the basic or underly, the > food. > > In terms of corn in the US corn belt, where 25 producers of ethanol are buying > up the total output of corn production from some farms, someone did the > calculation. > The amount of corn required to produce 25 gallons of ethanol can feed a human > in the third world for a whole year. When the ethanol priducers have reached > their capacity by end of 2007, 14 million tons of corn will go for ethanol, > leaving only 6 million tons of the planned increment of corn production for > export as food. Already now, ethanol distillers buy up 50% of South Dakota's > output of grain and corn, and 30% of Iowa's production. > Necessarily, the price of food made form grain and corn will rise sharply. > This has already happened in Asia, where production of biodiesel from palm oil > made this basic nutrition a luxury in terms of price. In Brazil, the commodity > sugar cane is up 100% in the past 12 months, due to the increment in demand by > Brazil's ethanol industry. > > Besides a coming battle for water, there will be a battle for food. > > My indecision is final for now > ( Dharma the Cat ) > Hans Dieter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 11:51:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HIeoGM011587; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HFTMmj022164; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:29:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=AmGz5AcC5L6bjkYRpXmjPhUj8oDWkB7HMN/e0LG92quFjSTl6PHBhK3ZJ76DZ5V+vNpStFTCrrPfDwHhWFBFLphWckPaISFhmVMu2YxtYR+8LYIu1Xp1Sqy2jVOfDIIbDD03rRLs5TloHWLaqfrXZD5pgI6G3JxAtedZ7SIHGDg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:19:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MIT's Energy 'Manhattan Project' Status: O X-Status: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71574-0.html?tw=wn_index_3 http://tinyurl.com/qt8lf By Mark Anderson| Also by this reporter 02:00 AM Aug, 11, 2006 Solar cells made from spinach. Algae-based biofuel fattened on greenhouse gas. Plasma-powered turbo engines. These are just some of the technologies being developed by a Manhattan Project-style research effort for new energy technologies at MIT. Scientists at MIT are undertaking a big, ambitious, university-wide program to develop innovative energy tech under the auspices of the school's Energy Research Council. There an obvious hole in their research, eh? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 11:51:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HIeoGO011587; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:51:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HDxtQ4005270; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 06:59:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 06:59:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Hlz0AdbOUM0ZOXVmUM/reZoEZu/5Rr3QAKMuRzl2UdjK7f1etnYpKEIyGpfpSDPqUboRim2u2Dxbz11eYYqexgDYcZosK/wPq4tAhlSk5F4AdQycBAE4//youXBB+iiHE4nai5NtouqNGm7tgUiz0g24F+r4wcWXA0QTcnQjUlE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:44:37 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT] The Evolution of War Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts! Since I seem to have started this discussion with the comment on the Segway Products and it has gone to well over 100 messages, I felt obligated to seek a conclusion. I find it in this article: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/07/1866019 What I have discovered is that my initial concepts of how to win the present war are seriously flawed. I say that I must agree with Maj. Gen. Scales (apropos) who offers a nine point solution to our present situation. It's a long article; so, I'll offer this morsel which appears at the end of the article to whet your appetite: "THE EVOLUTION OF WARFARE THE CHEMISTS' WAR The decisive strategic advantage on the World War I battlefield was driven by new applications of chemistry and chemical engineering. Germany, for example, exhausted its supplies of gunpowder nitrates in 1915, but the synthesis of nitrates by German scientists allowed the war to continue for another three years. THE PHYSICISTS' WAR The atomic bomb ended World War II, but exploitation of the electromagnetic spectrum in the form of wireless communications and radar won it for the allies. THE INFORMATION RESEARCHERS' WAR In World War III, intelligence and the ability to fully exploit it allowed the U.S. to defeat the Soviet Union. Information-age concepts of transformation and net-centrism mark the end of this epoch. THE SOCIAL SCIENTISTS' WAR To win World War IV, the military must be culturally knowledgeable enough to thrive in an alien environment. Victory will be defined more in terms of capturing the psycho-cultural rather than the geographical high ground. Understanding and empathy will be important weapons of war." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 13:32:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HJeqLt001692; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:41:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HJcXMI032154; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:38:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060817103400.04119888 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:34:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Josephson comments on Nature and Taleyarkhan Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/propaganda/taleyarkhan.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 13:34:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HIeoGQ011587; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:51:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HARGvK010159; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 03:27:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 03:27:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pGrR9CdBiXRKa9I1k/XymwhQuJBKLhZbDdbqs0ru22SrOVaKD0effteRXkQ4a3AF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068417102631178 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:26:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a5be626dcf14097d330f7fa6be95ee07350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.240 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Air Independent Closed Cycle Diesel Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Argon (gamma 1.67)-H2O2 closed cycle diesel engines give appreciable efficiency increase over Air (gamma 1.4). O2-H2O separator will be required. If the monsoons persist, the local Wal-Mart will be selling these. :-) http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~brown/VTShipDesign/2005SSLW3_FinalReport.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Argon (gamma 1.67)-H2O2 closed cycle diesel engines give appreciable efficiency
increase over Air (gamma 1.4).  O2-H2O separator will be required.
 
If the monsoons persist, the local Wal-Mart will be selling these. :-)
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 13:35:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HJeqLx001692; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:41:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HJSVPd024307; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:28:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:28:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02ad01c6c232$5db7d580$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:21:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Lightness Status: O X-Status: Word-play-of-the-day ... [woke-up light-headed, musing about an old movie] "Lightness" is where science morphs into philosophy; where "logos" exhales life; where levity becomes a weighty issue, and where being becomes nothingness. Huh? ... to complete the picture, one needs a serious scowl and a Sartresque 'pipe' ... or maybe a Magrittish 'ceci n'est pas une pipe'. If I have lost you there, Jean Paul was seldom seen with a smoking-pipe and Rene Magritte's painting "La trahison des images" ("The Treachery of Images") is a depiction of what could have been Sartre's smoking pipe with the phrase: "This is not a pipe." Because, well... it's not an existential pipe, it's just a painting of a pipe. Anyway, lightness is mostly about essence - about "being" and not especially about photons nor gravity ... nor even impecuniousness but since we know that light 'feels' gravity, we can't dismiss the connection. And as for the cash-connection, suffice it to say that freedom equates with lightness, which is nothing left to lose. According to Kundera's take on Sartre, "being" is full of "lightness" because each of us has only one life to live: "Einmal ist Keinmal" ("once is never", which is to lament that "what happened once might as well have never happened at all") ... not to be confused with the very-lightweight: "once is never enough" and excluding the singularity known as the big bang. 'Einmal ist Keinmal' is the polar opposite sentiment to "better to have loved and lost ... etc" And taking this to the extreme -- a life, like a wave of light, is ultimately so insignificant as to mean nothing in itself; and weighty decisions scarcely 'matter' at all. In a hundred years, the foolishness of an oil-war, or even the treasonous lies and deeds that justified it, will be scarcely remembered ... while such concepts as "what is the meaning of "is"? or "didn't inhale" or "don't ask, don't tell" may be imbedded in the language as memes. These are the whims of a culture which is not constrained by reason. Hence, since 'decisions' do not matter much, their lightness should not tie us down with misplaced guilt. But at the same time, the very insignificance of our so-called 'freedom of choice' is an unbearable admission that its not so much 'free' as it is 'evanescent' - just as our lives, our being, or the lilies-of-the-field - are unbearable in lightness and fragility... and transitory beauty. All sound and fury - signifying nothing. Jones PS (and giving credit where credit is due) doesn't this mean that "the unbearable lightness of being" is drawing interest from a bouncing Czech ? BTW: Your "word of the day" was brought to you by the letter "L" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 13:35:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HJeqLv001692; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:41:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HJcV88032100; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:38:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060817150132.0412cfa8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:22:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] The Evolution of War In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22847437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_22847437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed After 9/11, Bush told his aides, "this is the first war of the 21st century." When I heard that I thought to myself, "I was hoping there were not going to be any more wars in the 21st century." Bush, apparently, was expecting one. For me that is like saying: "this is the first lynching of the 21st century." or "the first U.S. polio epidemic." Doesn't it occur to people that sooner or later the human race can and will rid itself of this filth forever? We do not have do this to ourselves. It is not a law of nature. Despite the 20th century's abominable history, in European civilization, per capita participation in war and the number of people killed in wars as a percent of the population has been declining for about a thousand years, ever since organized armies were invented. It is a disgrace that things like war, starvation, infectious disease and illiteracy still exist! The dollar cost of eliminating they would be trivial, and the savings incalculable. We have betrayed the hopes of past generations and the future of our children allowing such things to go on. We should grow up! And leaders like Bush should stop dancing around on aircraft carrier decks celebrating the evisceration and incineration of other people. If we must do such things, we should at least be ashamed of ourselves. See: http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/making/warprayer.html - Jed --=====================_22847437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" After 9/11, Bush told his aides, "this is the first war of the 21st century." When I heard that I thought to myself, "I was hoping there were not going to be any more wars in the 21st century." Bush, apparently, was expecting one. For me that is like saying: "this is the first lynching of the 21st century." or "the first U.S. polio epidemic."

Doesn't it occur to people that sooner or later the human race can and will rid itself of this filth forever? We do not have do this to ourselves. It is not a law of nature. Despite the 20th century's abominable history, in European civilization, per capita participation in war and the number of people killed in wars as a percent of the population has been declining for about a thousand years, ever since organized armies were invented. It is a disgrace that things like war, starvation, infectious disease and illiteracy still exist! The dollar cost of eliminating they would be trivial, and the savings incalculable. We have betrayed the hopes of past generations and the future of our children allowing such things to go on. We should grow up! And leaders like Bush should stop dancing around on aircraft carrier decks celebrating the evisceration and incineration of other people. If we must do such things, we should at least be ashamed of ourselves.

See:

http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/making/warprayer.html

- Jed
--=====================_22847437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 13:41:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HKeDeY018363; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:40:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HKcFdZ016290; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:38:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060817162932.0412cfa8 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:36:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27317500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC Mathematics news? Or parody? Status: O X-Status: --=====================_27317500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9775-russian-mathematics-genius-shuns-= the-spotlight.html This is from a real article but it reads like a=20 parody. Here are some selected quotes that make=20 it sound like something orchestrated for the Marx=20 Brothers by S. J. Pearlman (not the subject, G.=20 Perelman). The hermit in Andorra is a nice touch. - Jed Russian mathematics genius shuns the spotlight The world of mathematics is in uproar over=20 rumours that its most prestigious prize will be=20 turned down next week by one of its brightest stars. The Fields Medal . . . is due to be presented by=20 the King of Spain in a ceremony in Madrid on Tuesday 22 August. But Gregori Perelman, who has been widely tipped=20 to receive it, has resigned his post at the=20 Steklov Institute of Mathematics in St=20 Petersburg, Russia, and gone to ground. =93Nobody=20 knows where he is,=94 says Marcus du Sautoy, a=20 mathematician at Oxford University in the UK.=20 Perelman is thought to have become disillusioned=20 with mathematics and disassociated himself from the field. Perelman achieved fame in the mathematics world=20 for his work on the Poincar=E9 Conjecture . . . Perelman's proof . . . published in 2002,=20 received widespread admiration for its=20 inventiveness, even though mathematicians have=20 yet to officially pronounce on its validity. =93The=20 consensus is that it is probably correct,=94 says du Sautoy. In 1966, the German mathematician Alexander=20 Grothendieck refused to pick up his award . . .=20 although he did later accept it. But Grothendieck=20 also became disillusioned with mathematics and=20 left the field. He is now believed to be living as a hermit in Andorra. --=====================_27317500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9775-russian-mathematics-genius-shuns-= the-spotlight.html

This is from a real article but it reads like a parody. Here are some selected quotes that make it sound like something orchestrated for the Marx Brothers by S. J. Pearlman (not the subject, G. Perelman). The hermit in Andorra is a nice touch.

- Jed


Russian mathematics genius shuns the spotlight

The world of mathematics is in uproar over rumours that its most prestigious prize will be turned down next week by one of its brightest stars.

The Fields Medal . . . is due to be presented by the King of Spain in a ceremony in Madrid on Tuesday 22 August.

But Gregori Perelman, who has been widely tipped to receive it, has resigned his post at the Steklov Institute of Mathematics in St Petersburg, Russia, and gone to ground. =93Nobody knows where he is,=94 says Marcus du Sautoy, a mathematician at Oxford University in the UK. Perelman is thought to have become disillusioned with mathematics and disassociated himself from the field.

Perelman achieved fame in the mathematics world for his work on the Poincar=E9 Conjecture . . .


Perelman's proof . . . published in 2002, received widespread admiration for its inventiveness, even though mathematicians have yet to officially pronounce on its validity. =93The consensus is that it is probably correct,=94 says du Sautoy.

In 1966, the German mathematician Alexander Grothendieck refused to pick up his award . . . although he did later accept it. But Grothendieck also became disillusioned with mathematics and left the field. He is now believed to be living as a hermit in Andorra.
--=====================_27317500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 14:01:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HL0LZx003187; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:00:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HKekTV018680; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:40:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:40:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 07:36:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetron application to water vortex Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, We have made several modifications to our test setup and can produce a = very stable eyewall in the water vortex. Suggestions made regarding = applying a pair of magnetrons aimed at the vortex have been intriguing. = I have some pdf pics of the test setup including a pic of trhe actual " = eye" produced. Before we fabricate a stainless steel container for = further testing, we would welcome input on ideas for the mounting of the = megnetrons.=20 Being a bunch of Vorts.. your ideas and suggestions may be as completely = wild as you wish < grin> Yes, we know a microwave cannot be "aimed" or focused... thats why we = have to do it.=20 Ask me and I will send you the two pics to view. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
We have made several modifications to our test setup and can=20 produce a very stable eyewall in the water vortex. Suggestions made = regarding applying a pair of magnetrons aimed at the vortex have = been=20 intriguing. I have some pdf pics of the test setup including a pic of = trhe=20 actual " eye" produced. Before we fabricate  a stainless steel = container for further testing, we would welcome input on ideas for the = mounting=20 of the megnetrons.
Being a bunch of Vorts.. your ideas and suggestions may be as = completely=20 wild as you wish < grin>
Yes, we know a microwave cannot be "aimed" or focused... thats why=20 we have to do it.
Ask me and I will send you the two pics to view.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c6c1f9$baacc4a0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C6C1CF.D1EDC710-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 14:32:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HLVj9A028589; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:31:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HLVhfR028554; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:31:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:31:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EJlqOTMLTE5cQjnM+BKHbOCfM4WGGtw1uHGgPmnQ9SXhT7d1kMF8Si7VDyNC1mkhp5IpBvS72pF2rg7dZcncOojCkywPGoOtu5VHuaYJ/RqT47hbRgnx8sVPXOezc/YVnUOmyBY7IfgMyZJnDaKedDrJ+yiNH7h/Af9+3hByKZ8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:31:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Air Independent Closed Cycle Diesel In-Reply-To: <410-220068417102631178 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220068417102631178 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <10Ws1D.A.B-G._AO5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Geeze, Fred, It's hard enough to enforce illegal immigration as it is! Terry On 8/17/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Argon (gamma 1.67)-H2O2 closed cycle diesel engines give appreciable > efficiency > increase over Air (gamma 1.4). O2-H2O separator will be required. > > If the monsoons persist, the local Wal-Mart will be selling these. :-) > > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~brown/VTShipDesign/2005SSLW3_FinalReport.pdf > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 15:44:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HMiEqg017757; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:44:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HMiCSQ017737; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:44:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:44:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RDejXx2UUzo0ERmVeJ/E7KcJPEdUFP3jEuvka78RaKhNLqEZu6lUb6tfJvl0zoa5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068417224355627 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Air Independent Closed Cycle Diesel Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:43:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940160ebd8e8673a5c828b01b9f5b37d3c2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.17 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote. > > > Geeze, Fred, > > It's hard enough to enforce illegal immigration as it is! > The way the Rio Grande is presently flowing, it's a last resort, not to mention the level of the great lakes. CQ is interested in the idea too, if taxes in Toronto get much higher. :-) Actually I'm thinking that using 250 F (15 PSI) steam as a working fluid in place of air or Argon in a two-cycle "diesel" in a "Stainless Steamer" (or ceramics?) using the 2 HOOH ----> 2 H2O + O2 plus 210 kJ reaction.. It's easy to separate the O2 gas from steam condensate using off-the-shelf steam plumbing. > > > Terry > > On 8/17/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > > Argon (gamma 1.67)-H2O2 closed cycle diesel engines give appreciable > > efficiency > > increase over Air (gamma 1.4). O2-H2O separator will be required. > > > > If the monsoons persist, the local Wal-Mart will be selling these. :-) > > > > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~brown/VTShipDesign/2005SSLW3_FinalReport.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 16:18:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7HNEt5f005267; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:14:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7HNEpr7005185; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:14:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:14:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c6c252$e4f18c60$0e96163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91><006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91><98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com><001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:14:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products >>I am sort of against the war at this point >Bright chap eh? ;) I prefer the dark myself. >Your 'sort of' against the war at this point? I bet Bush is 'sort of' >against the war at this point. Bush had a chance to be a president worth remembering. Bush blew his opportunity. I don't support him, nor am I a Republican. His only concern at this point is trying to find a nice way out of the hole he has dug himself into. To add on his endorsement of ethanol as the future alternative fuel....that is just insanity. >You should be generally against war (state sponsored murder) anyway but >against this war where the US attacked a nation not threatening the US or >anyone else >that had demonstrably no significant weapons. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide. What about non-state-sponsored murder via high speed airliner? Iraq was a threat to plenty, particularly itself. No one remembers Saddam Hussein gassing his own people? In any case, I will agree that Iraq should have been left along for the time being. Eventually, we would have had to do something about them. It would seem in retrospect that a more massive campaign in Afghanistan would have been called for, and then, when the nutcase in Iran decided to start his nonsense about manufacturing nuclear weapons (those friendly Muslims really aren't threatening us are they?) and furthermore boasting that he will distribute them to his Muslim brothers, we would have been in a position to launch the right kind of war against them. That is, with far, far greater firepower than we used in Iraq. Who knows? Perhaps this show of force would have frightened the Iraqi leadership so much that we could have left them alone indefinitely. In any case whats done is done. We must now proceed from here. >It has left the Iraqi people (the ones left) clearly worse off than they >were before the war, killed a #%$ load of them by any estimate, killed >what must be >nearing as many dead US soldiers as people died in 911 (not >that the 2 are linked in any way) As I stated previously, war is hell. >The US has been further disgraced by their solders being creepy, torturing >prisoners... And the Muslim radicals do not torture and brutally execute westerners? (there have been plenty of non Americans fall victim) I do not shed one tear for anyone who has been involved in the kinds of evil that the radical Islamic groups have been involved in. I do not know if I would advocate torturing them, although I would NOT imprison my own soldiers for doing so. I guess in that way, your statement that we have betrayed our own soldiers is correct...we imprison them for "mistreating" the enemy, who would not blink an eye at doing far worse to an "infidel". Instead of torture, straight-up execution would suffice, I think. >Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars. A pity. This could have been used to both: 1. Solve our addiction to foreign oil 2. Fund a much less expensive but far more aggressive war against Islamic radicals. Following point 1 above, if that were solved first, we could attack massively at will, and not worry about how oil shortages would affect us. This could, however, harm the rest of the industrialized world. Therefore, we should first make sure that all the technological nations have access to whatever new power/fuel source we develop. This includes China and Russia, whose people desperately need reliable, cheap energy. I believe it would also alleviate many tensions between the U.S. and China, as a major point of competition would be set aside by moving off oil. >What was the point of the war again? To kill the enemy, whoever he may be. >Yeah I'm 'sort of' against the war in iraq too. In that general tone then, I guess I am 'sort of' out of time...I think I would have done better during the era of the last truly properly fought war; WWII. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 17:37:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I0b2hI020929; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:37:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I0b1qx020886; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:37:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:37:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00be01c6c11f$01772410$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:30:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I0awwe020822 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT] Strong UN (was Re: New Segway Products) Status: O X-Status: (Robin your reply was private, but considering the contents I assume it's ok to answer on-list) Good point, but even so don't you think it would be a better solution than letting the fighting parties, who are necessarily biased, decide who are the bad guys and what should be done to them? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: "Michel Jullian" Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:03 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:29:23 +0200: Hi Michel, [snip] >Good point Ed about police action being needed, but whose police? > >The only solution IMHO would be a _strong_ UN with its own justice and police, in charge of deciding who are the bad guys and of catching them with minimal collateral damage. > >Michel [snip] Just a few years ago, I would have agreed with you. However when a single entity rules the entire planet, and has the potential to become corrupt (as all power structures do), then there is nowhere left to go to escape it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 19:06:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I25obW010270; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:05:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I25mx6010251; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:05:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:05:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=b3QzfG38INk2CWK0kqNzCbmrWD9IqiDZNqzfqgkCf5YN91g1/4gjRpvdteVriMOfg6sqHJZ6Jq1YQRtS1A0YTVkHZVazCZI9agTksO6exq1SbRgJVYfVgE4bKbxDttDZurzAHER2cV7OzehQ8NzQ56/5tjLR35b0q6GHfQZIV8g= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:05:44 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <000d01c6c252$e4f18c60$0e96163f DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16484_32361119.1155866744982" References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> <000d01c6c252$e4f18c60$0e96163f DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: <1M3GMD.A.HgC.8BS5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_16484_32361119.1155866744982 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline War, killing, fighting isn't Americas solution to everything no matter how much you and much of the US seems to think that it is. The US spends more on defense than all other countries combined even though the next biggest are allies of the US. The US has military bases in oh so mant other countries, but why, do other countries have military bases in the US or elsewhere? All those weapoons, money, covert operations, attacks and the US is less safe than the rest of the world. There was a plan to invade New Zealand at one point, the US thinks just like you, 'who can we invade today'. The CIA apparently doesn't have jurisdiction inside the US, but how can it have jurisdiction outside of the US, in other conutries! Since World War Two, the US has overthrown, or attempted to overthrow, 40 governments as well as organising, leading or supporting the crushing of 30 nationalist movements. American armed forces and special operations forces, such as the Green Berets, are being deployed in well over 100 countries. US nuclear missiles are still stored in seven European countries. If you read the following it's not hard to think of a reason besides 'they hate our freedom' for the way the Arabs are acting, and it also seems very clear that force is not solving the US's problems. Some light reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods http://www.rense.com/general51/sick.htm http://www.rense.com/general68/guin.htm http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id293/pg1/index.html http://www.allaahuakbar.net/us/mother_of_all_terrorists.htm http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/usbomber.htm Experiments on orphans, radiation experiments on 829 poor pregnant Caucasian women. kidnapping and torturing people. IN THE 1940s, 60,000 US military personnel were used as human subjects to test mustard gas and lewisite (blister gas). Most were not informed and never received medical follow-up. They were threatened with imprisonment if they discussed these experiments with anyone, including wives, parents and family doctors. >From the early 1960s, US forces sprayed tens of thousands of tons of herbicides (particularly Agent Orange) over three million acres of Vietnam as well as Laos and Cambodia. This polluted Vietnam with 500lbs of dioxin, a nearly indestructible pollutant and one of the world's most toxic substances. Three ounces in the water supply could wipe out New York's population. On top of that napalm was used in wars in Korea and Vietnam and reportedly Sarin nerve gas in Laos in 1970. In the 1990s the Pentagon admits that it exposed nearly 100,000 of its own US soldiers to trace amounts of Sarin gas in the Gulf War. US imperialism has waged sustained economic, chemical and biological war on Cuba. In 1962, they contaminated sugar exports and infected turkeys with a virus (killing 8,000). In 1971, they infected pigs with African swine fever. In 1996, they caused a plague of pesticide-resistant plant-eating insects affecting corn, beans, and other crops. Exporting lethal weapons A US Senate Committee report says that from 1985 to 1989 American suppliers exported biological materials to Iraq - materials that UN inspectors later found and removed from Iraq's biological warfare programme! These exports included plans for chemical and biological warfare production facilities and chemical-warhead filling equipment. Iraq was reported as engaging in chemical and even biological warfare against Iranians, Kurds and Shi'ites from the early 1980s. Blum notes: "Presumably, Iraq's use of these weapons against Iran is what Washington expected would happen." Depleted Uranium, (DU) used in tank cartridges, bombs, rockets and missiles is denser than steel and can penetrate tank armour. It is radioactive (forever), upon impact forms an aerosol of fine particles that can be carried downwind for 25 miles. When inhaled or ingested it can lead to many cancers and serious diseases. Hundreds of thousands of acres have been turned into DU weapon-testing grounds in many US states. DU has been sold to Thailand, Taiwan, Bahrain, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Greece, Korea, Turkey, Kuwait and other countries. This weapon was used in Iraq and Yugoslavia. Cluster bombs EACH CLUSTER bomb contains over 200 "bomblets" aided by little parachutes that disperse them to hit what the manufacturers call "soft targets". If the fail they in effect become landmines. Up to 30 million bomblets were dropped in the Gulf War; over a million didn't explode. It has led to over 1,200 Kuwaiti and 400 Iraqi civilian deaths so far. The Pentagon is working on newer and better cluster bombs, "...suitable for the new millennium. America deserves nothing less." Assassinations BLUM CLAIMS that the CIA have been involved in 36 assassination plots since world war two, including Nasser, Castro, Che Guevara, Michael Manley, Ayatollah Khomeini, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic and even, in 1965, Charles de Gaulle. War criminals BLUM SUGGESTS many US Presidents, generals etc for war criminals singling out Ronald Reagan for "Eight years of death, destruction, torture and the crushing of hope inflicted upon the people of El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Grenada by his policies; and for his bombings of Lebanon, Libya and Iran. He's forgotten all this, but the world shouldn't." He also nominates Henry Kissinger. "...(who successfully combined three careers: scholar, Nobel peace laureate and war criminal), behind interventions in Angola, Chile, East Timor, Iraq, Vietnam and Cambodia." Harbouring and supporting terrorists US-BACKED Cuban exiles are amongst the world's most prolific terrorist groups. In 1997, for example, there was a spate of hotel bombings in Havana directed from Miami. There are numerous air and boat hijackings. Even when perpetrators are brought to trial they are acquitted. The US harbours state terrorists - government ministers and Generals - from Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti, Chile, Argentina, Honduras, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran and former Yugoslavia. That doesn't include those the US flew to safe havens in third countries. In Afghanistan Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to Jimmy Carter in 1979, said that the US began aiding the Islamic fundamentalist Mujahidin six months before the Russians made their move, even though he believed - and told Carter - that "this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention". Did he regret this action which armed "terror" groups who have gone on many missions including against the USA? "Regret what? ...an excellent idea," he told Le Nouvel Observateur in 1998. Blum notes that the edition sent to the US didn't include this interview. A US diplomat in Pakistan in 1996 admitted: "This is an insane instance of the chickens coming home to roost. You can't plug billions of dollars into an anti-Communist jihad, accept participation from all over the world and ignore the consequences. "But we did. Our objectives weren't peace and grooviness in Afghanistan. Our objective was killing Commies and getting the Russians out". Backing dictators ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI said in 1979, "I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot.... The question was how to help the Cambodian people(!). Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But the Chinese could." A million Cambodians died under Khmer Rouge rule. The School of the Americas (SOA) trained tens of thousands of Latin American military and police in counter-insurgency, infantry tactics, military intelligence, anti-narcotics operations and commando operations. Under pressure, the Pentagon released seven Spanish-language training manuals used at the SOA until 1991. The New York Times said: "Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught ... during the 1980s. "A training manual recently released by the Pentagon recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned." Bombs, spies and interventions THE US has bombarded 26 countries since World War Two - China, Korea, Guatemala (three times), Indonesia, Cuba, Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Grenada, Lebanon, Libya, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Sudan, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia. And they have intervened in France, 1947; Italy, 1947-70s; Philippines, 1945-53 and 1970s-1980s; Albania, 1949-53; Eastern Europe, 1948-56; Germany, 1950s; Costa Rica, mid-1950s, 1970-71; Haiti, 1959 and 1987-94; Guyana, 1953-64; Thailand, 1965-73; Ecuador, 1960-63; Algeria, 1960s; Brazil, 1961-64; Peru, 1965; Dominican Republic, 1963-65 and Ghana, 1966. Then there was Uruguay, 1969-72; Chile, 1964-73; Greece, 1967-74; South Africa, 1960s-1980s; Bolivia, 1964-75; Australia, 1972-75; Portugal, 1974-76; East Timor, 1975-99; Angola, 1975-1980s; Jamaica, 1976; Honduras, 1980s; Seychelles, 1979-81; South Yemen, 1979-84; Chad 1981-82; Grenada, 1979-83; Suriname, 1982-84; Fiji, 1987; Bulgaria, 1990-91; Albania, 1991-92. Now there's Peru, Mexico, Venezuela and Colombia, all 1990s - the present. Blum's dossier shows clearly that whether it's on nuclear, biological and chemical warfare or supporting terrorists the world's biggest threat is US imperialism. John Sharpe, from The Socialist, paper of the Socialist Party, England and Wales section of the CWI. Now I will admit that your not the only country with an evil government though: HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE MURDERED BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS DURING THE 20TH CENTURY? 170,000,000 More than the combined total of all other unnatural causes: wars -- accidents -- murders Uncontrolled government is a citizen's greatest risk to life And of course wars are always caused by Governments. http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/usbomber.htm killing, nop not the answer. On 8/18/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: John Berry > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > > >>I am sort of against the war at this point > > >Bright chap eh? ;) > > I prefer the dark myself. > > >Your 'sort of' against the war at this point? I bet Bush is 'sort of' > >against the war at this point. > > Bush had a chance to be a president worth remembering. Bush blew his > opportunity. I don't support him, nor am I a Republican. His only concern > at > this point is trying to find a nice way out of the hole he has dug himself > into. To add on his endorsement of ethanol as the future alternative > fuel....that is just insanity. > > >You should be generally against war (state sponsored murder) anyway but > >against this war where the US attacked a nation not threatening the US or > >anyone else >that had demonstrably no significant weapons. > > There is such a thing as justifiable homicide. What about > non-state-sponsored murder via high speed airliner? Iraq was a threat to > plenty, particularly itself. No one remembers Saddam Hussein gassing his > own > people? In any case, I will agree that Iraq should have been left along > for > the time being. Eventually, we would have had to do something about them. > It > would seem in retrospect that a more massive campaign in Afghanistan would > have been called for, and then, when the nutcase in Iran decided to start > his nonsense about manufacturing nuclear weapons (those friendly Muslims > really aren't threatening us are they?) and furthermore boasting that he > will distribute them to his Muslim brothers, we would have been in a > position to launch the right kind of war against them. That is, with far, > far greater firepower than we used in Iraq. Who knows? Perhaps this show > of > force would have frightened the Iraqi leadership so much that we could > have > left them alone indefinitely. > > In any case whats done is done. We must now proceed from here. > > >It has left the Iraqi people (the ones left) clearly worse off than they > >were before the war, killed a #%$ load of them by any estimate, killed > >what must be >nearing as many dead US soldiers as people died in 911 (not > >that the 2 are linked in any way) > > As I stated previously, war is hell. > > >The US has been further disgraced by their solders being creepy, > torturing > >prisoners... > > And the Muslim radicals do not torture and brutally execute westerners? > (there have been plenty of non Americans fall victim) > > I do not shed one tear for anyone who has been involved in the kinds of > evil > that the radical Islamic groups have been involved in. I do not know if I > would advocate torturing them, although I would NOT imprison my own > soldiers > for doing so. I guess in that way, your statement that we have betrayed > our > own soldiers is correct...we imprison them for "mistreating" the enemy, > who > would not blink an eye at doing far worse to an "infidel". Instead of > torture, straight-up execution would suffice, I think. > > >Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars. > > A pity. This could have been used to both: > > 1. Solve our addiction to foreign oil > 2. Fund a much less expensive but far more aggressive war against Islamic > radicals. > > Following point 1 above, if that were solved first, we could attack > massively at will, and not worry about how oil shortages would affect us. > This could, however, harm the rest of the industrialized world. Therefore, > we should first make sure that all the technological nations have access > to > whatever new power/fuel source we develop. This includes China and Russia, > whose people desperately need reliable, cheap energy. I believe it would > also alleviate many tensions between the U.S. and China, as a major point > of > competition would be set aside by moving off oil. > > >What was the point of the war again? > > To kill the enemy, whoever he may be. > > >Yeah I'm 'sort of' against the war in iraq too. > > In that general tone then, I guess I am 'sort of' out of time...I think I > would have done better during the era of the last truly properly fought > war; > WWII. > > --Kyle > > ------=_Part_16484_32361119.1155866744982 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline War, killing, fighting isn't Americas solution to everything no matter how much you and much of the US seems to think that it is.

The US spends more on defense than all other countries combined even though the next biggest are allies of the US.

The US has military bases in oh so mant other countries, but why, do other countries have military bases in the US or elsewhere?

All those weapoons, money, covert operations, attacks and the US is less safe than the rest of the world.

There was a plan to invade New Zealand at one point, the US thinks just like you, 'who can we invade today'.

The CIA apparently doesn't have jurisdiction inside the US, but how can it have jurisdiction outside of the US, in other conutries!

Since World War Two, the US has overthrown, or attempted to overthrow, 40 governments as well as organising, leading or supporting the crushing of 30 nationalist movements.

American armed forces and special operations forces, such as the Green Berets, are being deployed in well over 100 countries. US nuclear missiles are still stored in seven European countries.

If you read the following it's not hard to think of a reason besides 'they hate our freedom' for the way the Arabs are acting, and it also seems very clear that force is not solving the US's problems.

Some light reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
http://www.rense.com/general51/sick.htm
http://www.rense.com/general68/guin.htm
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id293/pg1/index.html
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/us/mother_of_all_terrorists.htm
http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/usbomber.htm

Experiments on orphans, radiation experiments on 829 poor pregnant Caucasian women.
kidnapping and torturing people.

IN THE 1940s, 60,000 US military personnel were used as human subjects to test mustard gas and lewisite (blister gas).

Most were not informed and never received medical follow-up. They were threatened with imprisonment if they discussed these experiments with anyone, including wives, parents and family doctors.

From the early 1960s, US forces sprayed tens of thousands of tons of herbicides (particularly Agent Orange) over three million acres of Vietnam as well as Laos and Cambodia.

This polluted Vietnam with 500lbs of dioxin, a nearly indestructible pollutant and one of the world's most toxic substances. Three ounces in the water supply could wipe out New York's population. On top of that napalm was used in wars in Korea and Vietnam and reportedly Sarin nerve gas in Laos in 1970.

In the 1990s the Pentagon admits that it exposed nearly 100,000 of its own US soldiers to trace amounts of Sarin gas in the Gulf War.

US imperialism has waged sustained economic, chemical and biological war on Cuba. In 1962, they contaminated sugar exports and infected turkeys with a virus (killing 8,000). In 1971, they infected pigs with African swine fever. In 1996, they caused a plague of pesticide-resistant plant-eating insects affecting corn, beans, and other crops.
Exporting lethal weapons

A US Senate Committee report says that from 1985 to 1989 American suppliers exported biological materials to Iraq - materials that UN inspectors later found and removed from Iraq's biological warfare programme!

These exports included plans for chemical and biological warfare production facilities and chemical-warhead filling equipment. Iraq was reported as engaging in chemical and even biological warfare against Iranians, Kurds and Shi'ites from the early 1980s. Blum notes: "Presumably, Iraq's use of these weapons against Iran is what Washington expected would happen."

Depleted Uranium, (DU) used in tank cartridges, bombs, rockets and missiles is denser than steel and can penetrate tank armour. It is radioactive (forever), upon impact forms an aerosol of fine particles that can be carried downwind for 25 miles. When inhaled or ingested it can lead to many cancers and serious diseases.

Hundreds of thousands of acres have been turned into DU weapon-testing grounds in many US states. DU has been sold to Thailand, Taiwan, Bahrain, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Greece, Korea, Turkey, Kuwait and other countries. This weapon was used in Iraq and Yugoslavia.
Cluster bombs

EACH CLUSTER bomb contains over 200 "bomblets" aided by little parachutes that disperse them to hit what the manufacturers call "soft targets". If the fail they in effect become landmines.

Up to 30 million bomblets were dropped in the Gulf War; over a million didn't explode. It has led to over 1,200 Kuwaiti and 400 Iraqi civilian deaths so far.

The Pentagon is working on newer and better cluster bombs, "...suitable for the new millennium. America deserves nothing less."
Assassinations

BLUM CLAIMS that the CIA have been involved in 36 assassination plots since world war two, including Nasser, Castro, Che Guevara, Michael Manley, Ayatollah Khomeini, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic and even, in 1965, Charles de Gaulle.
War criminals

BLUM SUGGESTS many US Presidents, generals etc for war criminals singling out Ronald Reagan for "Eight years of death, destruction, torture and the crushing of hope inflicted upon the people of El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Grenada by his policies; and for his bombings of Lebanon, Libya and Iran. He's forgotten all this, but the world shouldn't."

He also nominates Henry Kissinger. "...(who successfully combined three careers: scholar, Nobel peace laureate and war criminal), behind interventions in Angola, Chile, East Timor, Iraq, Vietnam and Cambodia."
Harbouring and supporting terrorists

US-BACKED Cuban exiles are amongst the world's most prolific terrorist groups. In 1997, for example, there was a spate of hotel bombings in Havana directed from Miami.

There are numerous air and boat hijackings. Even when perpetrators are brought to trial they are acquitted.

The US harbours state terrorists - government ministers and Generals - from Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti, Chile, Argentina, Honduras, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran and former Yugoslavia. That doesn't include those the US flew to safe havens in third countries.

In Afghanistan Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to Jimmy Carter in 1979, said that the US began aiding the Islamic fundamentalist Mujahidin six months before the Russians made their move, even though he believed - and told Carter - that "this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention".

Did he regret this action which armed "terror" groups who have gone on many missions including against the USA?

"Regret what? ...an excellent idea," he told Le Nouvel Observateur in 1998. Blum notes that the edition sent to the US didn't include this interview.

A US diplomat in Pakistan in 1996 admitted: "This is an insane instance of the chickens coming home to roost. You can't plug billions of dollars into an anti-Communist jihad, accept participation from all over the world and ignore the consequences.

"But we did. Our objectives weren't peace and grooviness in Afghanistan. Our objective was killing Commies and getting the Russians out".

Backing dictators

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI said in 1979, "I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot.... The question was how to help the Cambodian people(!). Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But the Chinese could." A million Cambodians died under Khmer Rouge rule.

The School of the Americas (SOA) trained tens of thousands of Latin American military and police in counter-insurgency, infantry tactics, military intelligence, anti-narcotics operations and commando operations.

Under pressure, the Pentagon released seven Spanish-language training manuals used at the SOA until 1991. The New York Times said: "Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught ... during the 1980s.

"A training manual recently released by the Pentagon recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned."
Bombs, spies and interventions

THE US has bombarded 26 countries since World War Two - China, Korea, Guatemala (three times), Indonesia, Cuba, Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Grenada, Lebanon, Libya, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Sudan, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia.

And they have intervened in France, 1947; Italy, 1947-70s; Philippines, 1945-53 and 1970s-1980s; Albania, 1949-53; Eastern Europe, 1948-56; Germany, 1950s; Costa Rica, mid-1950s, 1970-71; Haiti, 1959 and 1987-94; Guyana, 1953-64; Thailand, 1965-73; Ecuador, 1960-63; Algeria, 1960s; Brazil, 1961-64; Peru, 1965; Dominican Republic, 1963-65 and Ghana, 1966.

Then there was Uruguay, 1969-72; Chile, 1964-73; Greece, 1967-74; South Africa, 1960s-1980s; Bolivia, 1964-75; Australia, 1972-75; Portugal, 1974-76; East Timor, 1975-99; Angola, 1975-1980s; Jamaica, 1976; Honduras, 1980s; Seychelles, 1979-81; South Yemen, 1979-84; Chad 1981-82; Grenada, 1979-83; Suriname, 1982-84; Fiji, 1987; Bulgaria, 1990-91; Albania, 1991-92. Now there's Peru, Mexico, Venezuela and Colombia, all 1990s - the present.

Blum's dossier shows clearly that whether it's on nuclear, biological and chemical warfare or supporting terrorists the world's biggest threat is US imperialism.
John Sharpe, from The Socialist, paper of the Socialist Party, England and Wales section of the CWI.



Now I will admit that your not the only country with an evil government though:

HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE MURDERED BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS DURING THE 20TH CENTURY?
170,000,000
                  
More than the combined total of all other unnatural causes: wars -- accidents -- murders
Uncontrolled government is a citizen's greatest risk to life

And of course wars are always caused by Governments.

http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/usbomber.htm

killing, nop not the answer.


On 8/18/06, Kyle R. Mcallister < weir fdscience.org> wrote:
---- Original Message -----
From: John Berry
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products


>>I am sort of against the war at this point

>Bright chap eh? ;)

I prefer the dark myself.

>Your 'sort of' against the war at this point? I bet Bush is 'sort of'
>against  the war at this point.

Bush had a chance to be a president worth remembering. Bush blew his
opportunity. I don't support him, nor am I a Republican. His only concern at
this point is trying to find a nice way out of the hole he has dug himself
into. To add on his endorsement of ethanol as the future alternative
fuel....that is just insanity.

>You should be generally against war (state sponsored murder) anyway but
>against this war where the US attacked a nation not threatening the US or
>anyone else >that had demonstrably no significant weapons.

There is such a thing as justifiable homicide. What about
non-state-sponsored murder via high speed airliner? Iraq was a threat to
plenty, particularly itself. No one remembers Saddam Hussein gassing his own
people? In any case, I will agree that Iraq should have been left along for
the time being. Eventually, we would have had to do something about them. It
would seem in retrospect that a more massive campaign in Afghanistan would
have been called for, and then, when the nutcase in Iran decided to start
his nonsense about manufacturing nuclear weapons (those friendly Muslims
really aren't threatening us are they?) and furthermore boasting that he
will distribute them to his Muslim brothers, we would have been in a
position to launch the right kind of war against them. That is, with far,
far greater firepower than we used in Iraq. Who knows? Perhaps this show of
force would have frightened the Iraqi leadership so much that we could have
left them alone indefinitely.

In any case whats done is done. We must now proceed from here.

>It has left the Iraqi people (the ones left) clearly worse off than they
>were before the war, killed a #%$ load of them by any estimate, killed
>what must be >nearing as many dead US soldiers as people died in 911 (not
>that the 2 are linked in any way)

As I stated previously, war is hell.

>The US has been further disgraced by their solders being creepy, torturing
>prisoners...

And the Muslim radicals do not torture and brutally execute westerners?
(there have been plenty of non Americans fall victim)

I do not shed one tear for anyone who has been involved in the kinds of evil
that the radical Islamic groups have been involved in. I do not know if I
would advocate torturing them, although I would NOT imprison my own soldiers
for doing so. I guess in that way, your statement that we have betrayed our
own soldiers is correct...we imprison them for "mistreating" the enemy, who
would not blink an eye at doing far worse to an "infidel". Instead of
torture, straight-up execution would suffice, I think.

>Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars.

A pity. This could have been used to both:

1. Solve our addiction to foreign oil
2. Fund a much less expensive but far more aggressive war against Islamic
radicals.

Following point 1 above, if that were solved first, we could attack
massively at will, and not worry about how oil shortages would affect us.
This could, however, harm the rest of the industrialized world. Therefore,
we should first make sure that all the technological nations have access to
whatever new power/fuel source we develop. This includes China and Russia,
whose people desperately need reliable, cheap energy. I believe it would
also alleviate many tensions between the U.S. and China, as a major point of
competition would be set aside by moving off oil.

>What was the point of the war again?

To kill the enemy, whoever he may be.

>Yeah I'm 'sort of' against the war in iraq too.

In that general tone then, I guess I am 'sort of' out of time...I think I
would have done better during the era of the last truly properly fought war;
WWII.

--Kyle


------=_Part_16484_32361119.1155866744982-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 20:10:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I3ACYQ016171; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I3ABTQ016154; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:10:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:10:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Plant Polluters Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:10:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7kl7e25rmuvmtjh5tddf1mc90rduijr8b3 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:10:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I3A4I7016049 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:15:54 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> > > >A problem provides the motivation. >Competition and/or cooperation provide the means. No, competition doesn't enable anything , hence provides no means (in fact if anything it does just the opposite, it makes life harder). It does provide a "spur" to goad companies into action however, which is why it provides the motivation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 20:18:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I3IMvQ020446; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:18:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I3IKgB020421; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:18:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:18:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c6c274$ecbf1b20$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:17:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Can'y find too much false in what John Berry wrote about the good ole = USA which may be the reason the Confederacy in the south is still = fighting the Civil War of 1861-1865. I know my grandmother sure hated = the Yankees cuz her granddaddy was killed in that war by the damn = Yankees and she wasn't born til 1869. Folks sure have a long memory , may even be a few Muslins still around = that hate Crusaders.=20 Shucks, if you want to read all about what started it with the Muslins = ya have to go back to Genesis and read how bad poor little Ismael got = treated by his stepmama Sarah.That must have been around... uh...lets = see.. about 2000 BC, give or take a century or too. My memory ain't too = good on dates but I'm a Texan and Texans never forget anything that's = real important like a really dirty trick. I bettter sign off now cuz I'm = getting plum worked up again jus thinking about our boys at the Alamo = and Goliad... Now , that was really a dirty trick ole Santa Ana's side = kick played on Col.Fannin. Why he promised Fannin if he would surrender = that Fannin and his troops would get parole.. word of honor, cross my = heart, sure fire deal, no lie... BLAM,BLAM and that was the end of ole = Fannin and his troops as soon as he layed down his gun and raised his = hands. But as they say, time has a way of solving old peoblems.. but I = gotta say those Yankees lie when the truth is in their favor so I kinda = gotta go along with what John Berry had to say about em. Richard Just south of Dime Box Texas wher the bluebonnets grow, the cattle call = and the tequila tastes like lemomade. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Can'y find too much false in what John Berry wrote about the good = ole USA=20 which may be the reason the Confederacy in the south is still fighting = the Civil=20 War of 1861-1865. I know my grandmother sure hated the Yankees cuz her=20 granddaddy was killed in that war by the damn Yankees and she wasn't = born til=20 1869.
 
Folks sure have a long memory , may even be a few Muslins still = around that=20 hate Crusaders.
 
Shucks, if you want to read all about what started it with the = Muslins ya=20 have to go back to Genesis and read how bad poor little Ismael got = treated by=20 his stepmama Sarah.That must have been around... uh...lets see.. about = 2000 BC,=20 give or take  a century or too. My memory ain't too good on dates = but I'm a=20 Texan and Texans never forget anything that's real important like a = really dirty=20 trick. I bettter sign off now cuz I'm getting plum worked up again jus = thinking=20 about our boys at the Alamo and Goliad... Now , that was really a dirty = trick=20 ole Santa Ana's side kick played on Col.Fannin. Why he promised Fannin = if he=20 would surrender that Fannin and his troops would get parole.. word of = honor,=20 cross my heart, sure fire deal, no lie... BLAM,BLAM and that was the end = of ole=20 Fannin and his troops as soon as he layed down his gun and raised his = hands. But=20 as they say, time has a way of solving old peoblems.. but I gotta say = those=20 Yankees lie when the truth is in their favor so I kinda gotta go along = with what=20 John Berry had to say about em.
 
Richard
Just south of Dime Box Texas wher the bluebonnets grow, the cattle = call and=20 the tequila tastes like lemomade.
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c6c274$d5700100$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C24A.ECB3E9A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 20:38:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I3c59K000548; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:38:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I3c3Uo000520; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c6c277$afdd71e0$049e163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91><006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91><98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com><001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:37:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6C256.272F5FF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6C256.272F5FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Currently, America and Israel are the greatest threats to world = stability=20 > with China a fair way behind. Hmmm. Hindsight is 20/20, I take it you are from the UK given your email = address. Maybe you would have preferred that our "great threat" had left = you=20 alone. Would you prefer the nice red-black-white swastika as your flag=20 instead of your current one? > It was only the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck=20 > fundamentalist Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade. Please attention all on Vortex who may have accused me of being bigoted, = religious bashing, intolerant! Read the above and you tell me what is = really=20 going on. Incidentally, the prominent Democrats in our (so-called) government = wanted=20 it just as badly as anyone else did. If you don't realize this, you = either=20 didn't watch the news clips of them demanding that we attack Iraq, or = are=20 far lower on the scale of education than the so-called "under-educated" = you=20 speak of above. --Kyle=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6C256.272F5FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original=20 Message -----
From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, = 2006 6:25=20 AM
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products


<I'm = snipping=20 most of this as it is not really worth the effort>

> = Currently,=20 America and Israel are the greatest threats to world stability
> = with=20 China a fair way behind.

Hmmm. Hindsight is 20/20, I take it you = are from=20 the UK given your email
address. Maybe you would have preferred that = our=20 "great threat" had left you
alone. Would you prefer the nice = red-black-white=20 swastika as your flag
instead of your current one?

> It = was only=20 the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck
> = fundamentalist=20 Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade.

Please = attention all=20 on Vortex who may have accused me of being bigoted,
religious = bashing,=20 intolerant! Read the above and you tell me what is really
going=20 on.

Incidentally, the prominent Democrats in our (so-called) = government=20 wanted
it just as badly as anyone else did. If you don't realize = this, you=20 either
didn't watch the news clips of them demanding that we attack = Iraq, or=20 are
far lower on the scale of education than the so-called = "under-educated"=20 you
speak of above.

--Kyle =
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C6C256.272F5FF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 20:39:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I3b6V1032545; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:37:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I3b2TS032498; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:37:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:37:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c6c277$89397a20$049e163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:36:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Currently, America and Israel are the greatest threats to world stability > with China a fair way behind. Hmmm. Hindsight is 20/20, I take it you are from the UK given your email address. Maybe you would have preferred that our "great threat" had left you alone. Would you prefer the nice red-black-white swastika as your flag instead of your current one? > It was only the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck > fundamentalist Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade. Please attention all on Vortex who may have accused me of being bigoted, religious bashing, intolerant! Read the above and you tell me what is really going on. Incidentally, the prominent Democrats in our (so-called) government wanted it just as badly as anyone else did. If you don't realize this, you either didn't watch the news clips of them demanding that we attack Iraq, or are far lower on the scale of education than the so-called "under-educated" you speak of above. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 21:21:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I4LY5J027154; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:21:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I4LWlj027124; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:21:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:21:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:21:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:21:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I4LLP8026997 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:36:43 -0400: [snip] >War's hell, ain't it? If you have your way, you'll probably end up getting first hand experience of both. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 21:38:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I4cMCJ003176; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:38:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I4cKx9003157; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:38:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:38:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:33:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91><006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91><98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com><001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c6c252$e4f18c60$0e96163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000d01c6c252$e4f18c60$0e96163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:33:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I4cDwl003085 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:14:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] >>Oh and it seems it will cost 1-2 trillion dollars. > >A pity. This could have been used to both: > >1. Solve our addiction to foreign oil >2. Fund a much less expensive but far more aggressive war against Islamic >radicals. True on both counts, but then the military industrial complex wouldn't have received the money, and the militants would have been dealt with, neither of which would serve the true interests of your (and probably my) administrations. ...so perhaps things have turned out just the way they wanted...perpetual war, and a continuous stream of *your* tax dollars flowing into *their* pockets. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 22:00:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I4xj9s016704; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:59:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I4xhT1016687; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:59:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:59:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E54908.2000204 usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:58:48 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: pseudoscience website Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; A friend sent me this URL, www.tinaja.com/scweb01.html . On reading it I sent the author the following: Dear Mr. Lancaster; A friend forwarded your article on pseudoscience to me. I'm on Bill Beaty's discussion group, Vortex-L. There are some very interesting evidence associated with UFO's. Cattle mutilations come to mind. Then there are the reports of trained observers, police and military personal. Robert Bigelow funded a project on a ranch, which produced some interesting video footage. I've never seen one, but I've read that they don't appear to Christians. The researcher Dale Pond of www.svpvril.com , doesn't think that Keeley was a fraud, he has replicated one of his machines, which he believes utilizes the Strong Force. Keeley's drawings look like string theory to me. There are also some interesting experimental evidence of energy production. One is Black Light Power, if it doesn't work, why do the investors continue to fund it? Another is low energy nuclear reactions, formerly known as cold fusion, two of the Vortexians run the website, www.lenr-canr.org . Another Vortexian runs Magnetic Power, Inc. They just filed a patent on a magnetic power generator. Physicists have concluded that torroidial plasma vortexes, AKA ball lightening, exhibit more energy than can be accounted for. The researcher Cyrl Chukanov believes that he can produce energy from them. The physicist Paulo Correa believes that he can produce energy from a similar phenomena, he calls his device the pulsed anomalous glow discharge, PAGD reactor. Perhaps these men are using the patent office as a vanity press. On the other hand. the theoretical physicist Hal Puthoff, www.earthtech.org has coauthered a series of articles which speculate how the Zero Point Energy, ZPE, interacts with matter. As for skeptics like the Amazing Randi, they dismiss everything spiritual. Mr. Randi said that he would give a prize for a demonstration of LENR. When some of the Vortexians attempted to pin him down on details like proof and payment, he changed his tune. People like Randi and Michael Schermer of Skeptic magazine dismiss things like energy medicine, that I know from personal experience work. Dr. Puthoff supervised the development of remote viewing for the NSA, if you read the books on the subject, there is no question that they produced some remarkably accurate intelligence. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 23:03:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I62vLd019681; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:02:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I62rcB019629; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:02:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:02:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E557D3.6050503 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:01:55 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ethanol production Status: O X-Status: Harry Tuttle posted; The amount of corn required to produce 25 gallons of ethanol can feed a human > in the third world for a whole year. True however, the story I heard, is that the ethanol production only consumes some of the starch in the corn. What remains has a higher feed value than the raw corn. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 23:23:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I6NZxY029033; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:23:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I6NVVh028983; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:23:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:23:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:23:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: uh, Nick? I can't speak for all of my fellow stupid, under-educated, over-propagandized redneck fundamentalist Christian "heartlanders" but you have left the bounds of civility and are treading on the rules of this list with your insults. Iraq is nothing more than *basic* military positioning to protect energy interests in the region. Period. Anyone who wants to make it anything more than that is either ignorant, naive, or a self-loathing masochist. Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen to strategically enter the pacific theater. 911 was allowed to happen to strategically enter the mid-east theater. Oil is a pillar of the world economy and civilization as we know it. America can never leave the region until either the oil or the need for it is gone. Soak it in, accept it. This topic has already been over analyzed and pontificated upon extensively, ad nauseum. I am not going to retype what has already been typed.... go read the frigg'n archive yourself. -j -------Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:26 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products It was only the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck fundamentalist Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 01:59:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I8wlLY018531; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:58:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I8wiO8018486; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:58:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:58:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:58:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <640be2ptn3g8ed1h14011tf522memrjsf0 4ax.com> References: <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:58:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I8wcYi018424 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Steck's message of Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:23:16 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Iraq is nothing more than *basic* military positioning to protect energy >interests in the region. Period. Anyone who wants to make it anything more >than that is either ignorant, naive, or a self-loathing masochist. Pearl >Harbor was allowed to happen to strategically enter the pacific theater. >911 was allowed to happen to strategically enter the mid-east theater. > >Oil is a pillar of the world economy and civilization as we know it. >America can never leave the region until either the oil or the need for it >is gone. Soak it in, accept it. [snip] As concise descriptions go, this is pretty good. I would say that there are a few ancillary issues around the edges, but this certainly covers the core quite well. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 02:04:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I94Dti022221; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:04:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I94BpG022187; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:04:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetron application to water vortex Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:04:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:04:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I946q6022140 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Thu, 17 Aug 2006 07:36:14 -0500: Hi, [snip] >BlankHowdy Vorts, > >We have made several modifications to our test setup and can produce a very stable eyewall in the water vortex. Suggestions made regarding applying a pair of magnetrons aimed at the vortex have been intriguing. I have some pdf pics of the test setup including a pic of trhe actual " eye" produced. Before we fabricate a stainless steel container for further testing, we would welcome input on ideas for the mounting of the megnetrons. >Being a bunch of Vorts.. your ideas and suggestions may be as completely wild as you wish < grin> >Yes, we know a microwave cannot be "aimed" or focused... thats why we have to do it. [snip] ...surely radar does this all the time. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 02:34:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7I9YR1L005657; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:34:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7I9YQLg005638; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:34:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:34:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Strong UN (was Re: New Segway Products) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:34:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3t1be2h2p5tvhrg5rho67cvc4f55ug5p89 4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060811105950.040a5388@mindspring.com> <44DCCB57.2070805@ix.netcom.com> <44DFD6A1.5080909@pobox.com> <44DFE473.8050401@ix.netcom.com> <011001c6bf84$24151eb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <00be01c6c11f$01772410$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <00be01c6c11f$01772410$3800a8c0 zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:34:18 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7I9YKYJ005563 Resent-Message-ID: <0x4cKC.A.7XB.gmY5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:30:33 +0200: Hi, [snip] >(Robin your reply was private, but considering the contents I assume it's ok to answer on-list) > >Good point, but even so don't you think it would be a better solution than letting the fighting parties, who are necessarily biased, decide who are the bad guys and what should be done to them? > >Michel [snip] This is a difficult issue. I suspect that a better (though imperfect) solution would be an international court, but leave the policing in the hands of individual nations (which with the recent introduction of the International Criminal Court, is more or less what is being done). I would take issue with having both policing and courts under one roof, so to speak. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 03:17:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IAH13U028503; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:17:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IAGxU7028464; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:16:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:16:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VcNI17L8+YYc0AUtpNumxC3PzTJV3tlr2D1FKKefT3PaIHZmt3lC88SqfUx66s05; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068518101618199 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Air Independent Closed Cycle Diesel Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:16:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c41f845c66aebc0ddd985f4ff18a91e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OTOH, would it be simpler to use the non-condensible O2 as the working fluid, vent excess O2, and save the condensate in a holding tank? I haven't figured out yet what happens with steam when it's compressed at a 10-22 to 1 compression ratio which puts it at temperatures above the critical point. Fred > > From: Frederick Sparber > > Terry wrote. > > > > > > Geeze, Fred, > > > > It's hard enough to enforce illegal immigration as it is! > > > > Actually I'm thinking that using 250 F (15 PSI) steam as > a working fluid in place of air or Argon in a two-cycle "diesel" > in a "Stainless Steamer" (or ceramics?) using the > 2 HOOH ----> 2 H2O + O2 plus 210 kJ reaction.. > It's easy to separate the O2 gas from steam condensate using > off-the-shelf steam plumbing. > > Fred > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 03:32:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IAVhDi004790; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:31:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IAVWH0004697; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:31:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:31:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VjmspWJ18lsofJJIoT92iYkEB03bNqW/T+AoTFpWlJVratTufy9PV2iW/+QSrNde; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068518103110131 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Air Independent Closed Cycle Diesel Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:31:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94060eaa1fb41626451b4bb00d922d8c8cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Robin wrote: > > they used it to power torpedos > Is there any difference between a HOOH powered torpedo or cruise missile, and a modified 57 Chevy zipping along at 90 miles per hour, Robin ? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Robin wrote:
>
> they used it to power torpedos
>
Is there any difference between a HOOH powered torpedo or
cruise missile,  and a modified 57 Chevy zipping along at
90 miles per hour, Robin ? 
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 03:38:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IAcVip009030; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:38:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IAcTgA009002; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:38:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:38:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c6c2b2$6d48c290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11><000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <000e01c6c277$89397a20$049e163f@DFBGQZ91> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:37:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Status: O X-Status: Kyle - read John Berry's post. Be ashamed of being American. If you're not, then it is people like you who are the problem that needs solving. Kyle wrote:- <> America only really came in when it seemed as if there might be a threat to them (the Japanese), not earlier when they were asked by those threatened by Germany. Elements in your Government are on record as claiming that a European war had nothing to do with them, so why should they help. Thanks, Yanks - not. Incidentally, one of my first memories of the States when visiting America was going to a motel where the owner had a "shrine" to Hitler and the red,black and white flag visible in the living room behind the reception desk. Seeing my raised eyebrows she said that he (Hitler) had been misrepresented and that the holocaust was a lie told by those dirty Jews to blacken his name (this was in liberal California!) BTW, I didn't find the room suitable and went elsewhere... Kyle Wrote:- <> Both Republican and Democrats (and Tony Blair) were misled by so called intelligence that claimed that Saddam had developed "weapons of mass destruction" that could be armed and ready to go in 45 minutes. As Saddam had fired Scud missiles at Israel (to encourage support from the Arab nations during the first Gulf "war") this was seen as giving an imperative to stop his regime. WMD fired at Israel would have probably caused the Israelis to use their nukes and ignite the whole middle East. The "intelligence" was wrong (maybe deliberately so. Any person educated in the history of the US would put almost nothing past your "intelligence" services - whether they are incompetent, stupid or just plain evil remains to be proved). Absolutely no-one is claiming that Saddam's regime was in any way good, but there are many similar or worse regimes in the world that not only has the USA done nothing to overturn but has also positively encouraged (see John Berry's post again). The rhetoric about spreading democracy and freedom by military intervention is close to being one of the all time most evil "big lies" ever told. I did not know that piece John Berry quotes about the US's prior messing with Afghanistan that apparently precipitated the Soviet invasion. It sounds very possible. When I was growing up, the biggest scare was the Cuban missile crisis around 1961/62 when those rascally Commies were threatening the forces of good by stationing nuclear weapons on Cuban soil. No-one at all at the time (apart from the socialist "underground" media) reported that that was a response to the US stationing nuclear weapons on (I think it was ) Turkish soil pointing at Moscow. What was portrayed to the public as evil Russian aggression and expansionism was merely tit for tat strategy to a tactic thought up and executed by the paranoid good ole' boys of the USA. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 05:08:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IC8U1M029105; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:08:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IC8QVf029069; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:08:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:08:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007601c6c2be$fd2c9510$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f@DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f@DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om@4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f@DFBGQZ91> <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <6.1.1.1.1.20060818061933.01e9f0f8@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:08:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <-OChV.A.9FH.42a5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote:- <<"...accurate TV portrayal of the base character of too many Americans..." Now there's an interesting oxymoron - "accurate TV portrayal". You need to get out and see life a little more.>> The sister of my step son's wife has just come out of the British Army after serving in Iraq until a few weeks ago. We had dinner with her two days ago. She was seriously unimpressed at the morals or education or basic "niceness" of too many US grunts even compared to the Brit grunts - she was scared at the spoken motivations of some US officers. I have been to American BBQs and heard the drunken deeper beliefs of too many Yanks. I lived in America for three months meeting people from all over America. Those with uber faith and/or patriotism are dangerous and there are too many of them who claim "my country, right or wrong". In the sixties the opposition used to say "my country, right or wrong - when right, to be kept right - when wrong, to be put right". <> It's not crap, sadly. As I said elsewhere, we are necessarily writing in shorthand. Your response shows that you are responding to a logical fallacy. You appear to believe that I said that all Americans are rubbish and you are pointing out that not all are. Clearly, there are many who are educated, historically aware and against what your Government has done, and is still doing. As the US claims to be a democracy, this means that the majority will of the people has and is being served by this long term selfish messing about with the world. Go and figure out if I am wrong when I slate "too many Americans" - count them for yourself. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 07:38:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IEc4uk017889; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:38:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IEc3Xr017875; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818101500.04107cd0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:17:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <007601c6c2be$fd2c9510$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <6.1.1.1.1.20060818061933.01e9f0f8 pop> <007601c6c2be$fd2c9510$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >In the sixties the opposition used to say "my country, right or >wrong - when right, to be kept right - when wrong, to be put right". The 1860s, you mean. That is a quote from Carl Schurz (1829-1906), a German revolutionary, a U.S. reformer and a Union general in the Civil War. Actually, he said that in 1872. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 08:31:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IFUoHc017552; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:30:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IFUk0C017515; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:30:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:30:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01C6C2A0.97CE1860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C6C2A0.97CE1860 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0055_01C6C2A0.97CE1860" ------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C6C2A0.97CE1860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRichard, I think I mentioned this before in a private email, but one possible = tactic for what you want to do is to set up two standing waves in your = vortex chamber, which overlap. There should be a focusing effect in the = overlapping nodes of the standing waves. Lets say you are using two magnetrons which have a wavelength of 5 = inches, which is about what the standard oven-magnetron produces (2.35 = GHz).=20 The ideal situation would be a "waveguide" which is your vortex chamber, = which is two (or four wavelengths long). This would be a smaller size = than your present size, which is a large vortex machine. The "tube" can = be rectangular, rather than round.=20 The two magnetrons are mounted at 1/3 and 2/3 the total tube length. For = a 20 inch tube, you would have them at 6 2/3 and 13 1/3 inches from one = end. These will produce standing waves with 8 nodes of overlap. Better yet, this may be a good time to hire a consultant who is = specialist in microwaves . There are probably lots of these around = Austin. Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:36 AM Subject: [Vo]: Magnetron application to water vortex Howdy Vorts, We have made several modifications to our test setup and can produce a = very stable eyewall in the water vortex. Suggestions made regarding = applying a pair of magnetrons aimed at the vortex have been intriguing. = I have some pdf pics of the test setup including a pic of trhe actual " = eye" produced. Before we fabricate a stainless steel container for = further testing, we would welcome input on ideas for the mounting of the = megnetrons.=20 Being a bunch of Vorts.. your ideas and suggestions may be as = completely wild as you wish < grin> Yes, we know a microwave cannot be "aimed" or focused... thats why we = have to do it.=20 Ask me and I will send you the two pics to view. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C6C2A0.97CE1860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Richard,
 
I think I mentioned this before in a private email, but one = possible tactic=20 for what you want to do is to set up two standing waves in your vortex = chamber,=20 which overlap. There should be a focusing effect in the = overlapping nodes=20 of the standing waves.
 
Lets say you are using two magnetrons which have a wavelength = of 5=20 inches, which is about what the standard oven-magnetron produces (2.35 = GHz).=20
 
The ideal situation would be a "waveguide" which is your vortex = chamber,=20 which is two (or four wavelengths long). This would be a smaller size = than your=20 present size, which is a large vortex machine. The "tube" can = be=20 rectangular, rather than round.
 
The two magnetrons are mounted at 1/3 and 2/3 the total tube = length. For a=20 20 inch tube, you would have them at 6 2/3 and 13 1/3 inches from one = end. These=20 will produce standing waves with 8 nodes of overlap.
 
Better yet, this may be a good time to hire a consultant who is = specialist=20 in microwaves <g>. There are probably lots of these around=20 Austin.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 = 5:36=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Magnetron = application to=20 water vortex

Howdy Vorts,
 
We have made several modifications to our test setup and can = produce a very stable eyewall in the water vortex. Suggestions = made=20 regarding applying a pair of magnetrons aimed at the vortex have = been=20 intriguing. I have some pdf pics of the test setup including a pic of = trhe=20 actual " eye" produced. Before we fabricate  a stainless = steel=20 container for further testing, we would welcome input on ideas for the = mounting of the megnetrons.
Being a bunch of Vorts.. your ideas and suggestions may be as = completely=20 wild as you wish < grin>
Yes, we know a microwave cannot be "aimed" or focused... thats = why=20 we have to do it.
Ask me and I will send you the two pics to view.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C6C2A0.97CE1860-- ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C6C2A0.97CE1860 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005301c6c2db$44283570$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C6C2A0.97CE1860-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 08:59:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IFwkmm002546; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:58:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IFwhub002519; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:58:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:58:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:58:37 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127B3 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What's The Deal With "Steorn"? Thread-Index: AcbC3yqf1BCobf4XTSeIpZyuIjyHtw== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2006 15:58:38.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B651C20:01C6C2DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7IFwcQE002446 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What's The Deal With "Steorn"? Status: RO X-Status: These Irish guys are claiming to have discovered "free energy" and have challenged the world by putting an ad in the Economist to evaluate their stuff. One of their patents is WO2006035419 but I can't get espace to open the document. Is this a version of Bearden's MEG all over again? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 09:02:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IG1jDs005334; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:01:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IG1fkO005224; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:01:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:01:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:01:31 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Steorn.net Thread-Index: AcbC35JZ/4EXSo4sQKSJPN1y2aCfiQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2006 16:01:32.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[931DFF30:01C6C2DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7IG1YKl005121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn.net Status: RO X-Status: I think it's www.steorn.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 09:06:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IG6d82009122; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:06:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IG6ZeP009080; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:06:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:06:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=j2BaVKNc1aruRcywokVac2F/4V0l1TSr3IZYcmZvjZ5ov/wzGC4eYkKt+Z7TuNmn2eSRG7bm0i73eGsLmrgTe/8plaFzN6GPgH75/bPmcJdZyHHNWhnHhESfdC5FLZC/XSh3wMTH0o44pkSTckVcWwhDEklvGEZSv1bFhkWk/8A= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:06:28 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex In-Reply-To: <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > Richard, > > I think I mentioned this before in a private email, but one possible tactic > for what you want to do is to set up two standing waves in your vortex > chamber, which overlap. There should be a focusing effect in the overlapping > nodes of the standing waves. But if the two sources are not phase synchronous, the nodes will skittle about. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 09:27:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IGQqw0022494; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:26:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IGQpE0022470; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:26:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:26:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009101c6c2e3$18c842a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:26:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: True ... but just as all the clocks in a clock store line-up in phase, on their own (like magic ?) one would expect microtrons, especially if wired in parallel, to do the same, no? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex > On 8/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: >> >> Richard, >> >> I think I mentioned this before in a private email, but one >> possible tactic >> for what you want to do is to set up two standing waves in your >> vortex >> chamber, which overlap. There should be a focusing effect in >> the overlapping >> nodes of the standing waves. > > But if the two sources are not phase synchronous, the nodes will > skittle about. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 10:20:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IHKCHR024858; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IHHbeF022832; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:17:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:17:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=e1VpM2jojdUj6dXzqxd+6Ceqdpx1Zwfs1CY86RIeFLelk2Puzxc72lwQJxfeqIElV3QKAFwfYTgreHqTfizAcQ+GPByRimkjBgKkwHHJeuTdmAW9LUNtIwc1ZuoxSS6olOfQ8pYh1jfaLVqPWmcjdiv86/4NQLlSqC3grfMstd8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:10:25 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex In-Reply-To: <009101c6c2e3$18c842a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <009101c6c2e3$18c842a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: > True ... but just as all the clocks in a clock store line-up in > phase, on their own (like magic ?) one would expect microtrons, > especially if wired in parallel, to do the same, no? Not really. The resonant frequency of the microwave cavity will vary with the mechanical variations in the device. The frequencies have to be exact to be phase synchronous. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 10:29:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IHTRF6031749; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:29:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IHTQBh031724; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:29:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y2K6g8/jJ8YYbfyDADNe0oEwFyC89bCyOlMyiFrwhRoBa/JGr6ZpfLRstinwAmdWZqDJ5LsG9IyZyxWeRmeFXKZh4JVRormeqjX8byyyo8D0OB5FO9KpBZubLIg5j2suS0B8AGwQKu9JXEsGgtQ6sMcuWcbLvxCQkb8m5Jd1MHQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:29:24 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What's The Deal With "Steorn"? In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127B3 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127B3 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5PlhI.A.hvH.1jf5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/18/06, Zell, Chris wrote: > These Irish guys are claiming to have discovered "free energy" and > have challenged the world by putting an ad in the Economist to evaluate > their > stuff. One of their patents is WO2006035419 but I can't get espace to > open the document. > > Is this a version of Bearden's MEG all over again? Nope, more like a Sprain Magmo. Here's the gist: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/storn.jpg Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 10:39:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IHdIeS006087; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:39:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IHdGZZ006055; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:39:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:39:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LodFY+DJqNY+IF9ouvsBHPtvcMO3xUpk7xzyBQKISgzraBEvEVuPesRr6EZSH28ViEViAmZRfSjBaeAe0/obRx23BAuvektmOWE82x5Jt0m6ORns6tfPrGT8KkxO40gcRJM1ohrt4F3S1leJj+qFeT41pOifNq4jQXl3fiZ8vak= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:39:14 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What's The Deal With "Steorn"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127B3 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: <0wwBWB.A.feB.Dtf5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/18/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Nope, more like a Sprain Magmo. Here's the gist: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/storn.jpg This should allow you to view the patent: http://tinyurl.com/h8po9 Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 10:53:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IHrIvL015399; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:53:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IHrFlJ015361; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:53:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:53:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UJ1mRDSnzm0cYjI6LUCtrPYuXPTez/x/C0UOUZIg8HfTtk5uzP6MBGu3zhsWztYWcfiiq/+l66nrI9mkfa23TX+ozxZzj9nDiEnBwAK2Cf/f8feByU5uOixrIMh0RpdRzmOZKqQBtvQjyO1S1C1tZ2XdUDY2EHV9nlNSguzaScg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:53:01 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What's The Deal With "Steorn"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127B3 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/18/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/18/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Nope, more like a Sprain Magmo. Here's the gist: > > > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/storn.jpg > > This should allow you to view the patent: > > http://tinyurl.com/h8po9 If that doesn't work for you, here's the whole kit: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/WO2006035419A1.pdf Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 12:10:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IJAN6e023568; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:10:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IIlGbL011590; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:47:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:47:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BTkhIxagIxyoE0+jOcpGnOjztT0XsoPWLKlOhePelJuKUGaOfkmAvErY2UGFyzUEv2MFG4Boz5Sl530Z03MDgmGvq93YQ/YbLRIRPSQJRvr43cQjeU4xsIWl9Vy6xxkRe0j/TfgQnJIFuuk+r6p9ksD9ERLeB8ityIIg+pJktjU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:25:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/18/06, Zell, Chris wrote: > I think it's www.steorn.net Yeah, it made Reuters: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-08-17T231302Z_01_L17772156_RTRUKOC_0_US-TECHNOLOGY-ENERGY.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-scienceNews-2 http://tinyurl.com/hcfw7 Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 12:42:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IJg54p013841; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:42:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IJg3YM013822; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:42:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:42:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:18:24 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818061933.01e9f0f8 pop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > The "stability" you talk about is the same kind of stability that you get > when dogma - scientific or otherwise - rules. It's the stability of the > grazing herd. Nothing of value is accomplished through this kind of > deadness. Propaganda. Do you think meaningful change ONLY happens through violence? e.g. Canada did not take the America path to independence. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 12:57:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IJvA9B024798; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:57:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IJv7K7024740; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:57:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:57:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155646.04141e88 mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155520.04131e88 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:56:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Message from Amini Status: RO X-Status: August 2, 2006 From: "f.amini" To: "'Jed Rothwell'" Subject: Cold Fusion- New Paper Dear Mr. Rothwell, I hope you are well. I have recently written a paper titled' "Cold Fusion by Jet Plasma Process in Hydro Machinery'" in 18 pages. The purpose of the paper is to study the process of Plasma formation on the surface of runner blades when a hydro turbine operates at partial condition. By comparing the theoretical and measured power of turbine, it is revealed that energy and hydrogen are generated by the Plasma process. The investigation on several turbines of various hydro power plants vividly reveals that plasma process in hydro machinery generates hydrogen. In future, it may be possible to design hydro turbines based on the plasma process that generates hydrogen; or there may exist turbines that rotate with a mixture of hydrogen and water energies. It is tried to present any required data to verify this issue. Now, I would like to know how I could have this paper reviewed to verify the claims in the paper. Please provide your advice. Best regards Farzan Amini From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 12:58:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IJsLjs023176; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:54:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IJs9r2023047; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:54:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:54:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818154641.0413a510 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:53:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Terry Blanton wrote: >On 8/18/06, Zell, Chris wrote: >>I think it's www.steorn.net > >Yeah, it made Reuters: This is very sad. I do not understand the mindset of inventors who do this kind of thing, and say, ". . . until this thing is validated by science we won't be doing anything commercial with it . . ." That is nonsense. Inventors often say this, but they are wrong, and they have missed the point. Or three points: 1. Science is not a monolithic institution. There is no one single source of validation, and no unity of opinion. 2. As things stand, mainstream science institutions and researchers will never look at this gadget or validate it. Even if one did, he would never admit to himself or anyone else that what he saw was real. That simply will not happen and anyone who thinks he can trigger such an event with an advertisement in a newspaper is a pathetic fool. 3. You do not need "science" to validate something like this; you need a dozen or so good engineers. If the people with this gadget could convince 10 or 20 people on this list that the machine is real beyond any doubt, word would soon spread and someone with money would show up at their door. In the first phase, you need only convince your friends and people who are inclined to be sympathetic. You can ignore your enemies until later. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 03:40:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IAe6db009912; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:40:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IAWAc9005046; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:32:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:32:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=VDZshU2N8Yb4jvoMlnjdmfUgaN7LUHAnJsUiq9GlnpQGvotxTOdmiv0HUDSL8noF0Nh1+rsuYuyHPTk/PZrCS4lPySScd7jTr+MkflVBwZE5yVI1w9uR3YfBgoD6jopbDjkBGr3OUB+WNyboX6jaUH+To6rOifWoeqs+wGi91Z8= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818061933.01e9f0f8 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 06:30:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <625073877.1155441693554.JavaMail.root fepweb11> <000501c6beed$0a667050$31d9163f DFBGQZ91> <006601c6c0b7$63730bb0$4cd8163f DFBGQZ91> <98p4e21di6db7ij31sc1psipd3atfi67om 4ax.com> <001001c6c195$3a997060$8dc4163f DFBGQZ91> <004e01c6c1e7$8884d290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9t4X-C.A.yOB.pcZ5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: "Currently, America and Israel are the greatest threats to world stability with China a fair way behind. Elements of power in both America and Israel have still got this "Us first, and only us" mentality." So if the Israelis had lit a big bonfire and destroyed their arms in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, etc., etc., - or if they did so now, the world would be a better/safer place - all hugs and kisses? The "stability" you talk about is the same kind of stability that you get when dogma - scientific or otherwise - rules. It's the stability of the grazing herd. Nothing of value is accomplished through this kind of deadness. "...accurate TV portrayal of the base character of too many Americans..." Now there's an interesting oxymoron - "accurate TV portrayal". You need to get out and see life a little more. Look, I'm not American, but I resent that crap. There are nice Americans and not-so-nice Americans. I've had dealings with many and have enjoyed the experiences greatly. That's a lot better food for thought than watching staged TV propaganda. P. At 11:25 AM 8/17/2006 +0100, you wrote: >Kyle wrote:- > ><Islamic radicals detonate nuclear weapons on our (American) soil, hopefully >someone will have the guts to retaliate massively. Or, to clarify, "nuke" >the whole bloody place>> > >It's not a place so you can't target it, Kyle. It's an idea. There are >countries where the idea is more concentrated but if you wish to wipe out >the idea with nukes then you have to vaporise just about the whole world. >Most of the suicide bombers and extremists who attend the legendary >training camps come from outside the countries where the camps are >supposed to be located. The recent plot in Britain to smuggle liquid >explosive on to planes bound for the US was entirely "staffed" by British >residents. Would you nuke Britain too? > >Most of the 911 terrorists/freedom fighters (depending on which side of >the fence you are) were Saudis. The US backed Saudi dynasty (which is so >extremely close to the Bush regime) is a MAJOR cause of the Islamic >resentment. Osama's own family are a part of it and probably caused his >extreme beliefs and so he is now pursuing jihad as some kind of twisted >"family therapy". If the US had stopped backing this regime many events >would not have occurred. But they didn't. Like characters from " Jackass", >that accurate TV portrayal of the base character of too many Americans, >the unpleasant, idiot jerks continued on. Change the bullying, greedy, >"America first" way of politics and the problem will solve itself. > >Currently, America and Israel are the greatest threats to world stability >with China a fair way behind. Elements of power in both America and Israel >have still got this "Us first, and only us" mentality. Most of your West >and East coasts were against the Iraq invasion in the first place. It was >only the stupid, under-educated over-propagandised redneck fundamentalist >Christian "heartlands" that wanted this new crusade. > >In the history of many of the older nations there was this colonialist >view. Britain, Germany, Japan, France Portugal, Spain, Russia did it. We >all fell for this "we are the most important country" rhetoric. Hopefully >we have now grown up. For God's sake America, grow up too. > > >Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 14:26:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ILQ015016248; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:26:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ILPvVw016217; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:25:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:25:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:24:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <002a01c6c2ff$f4ce5610$2002a8c0 BioLifeStyle5> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1gsMq.A.G9D.kBj5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [4DWorldx] FW: [Vo]: ethanol production Status: O X-Status: Forwarded from 4dworldx. Harry > Forwarded from Vortex-L > Harry > > >>> The amount of corn required to produce 25 gallons of ethanol can feed a >>> human >>> in the third world for a whole year. >> >> Thomas: >> True however, the story I heard, is that the ethanol production only >> consumes some of the starch in the corn. What remains has a higher feed >> value than the raw corn. Yes it has but it is not usable as raw food anymore. Recent technologies, slowly adapted in the US ( Xethanol, Pacific ethanol, and some more ) allow for a higher efficiency of producing ethanol from starch, but this won't solve the problem as this method consumes about as much of primary energy as is contained in the ethanol - factor is 1.5 i.e. for 1.5 kwh ethanol energy one has to invest 1 kwh primary energy. Possibly the way to go is a quite old process of coal liquification ( Fischer-Tropsch or Nazi gasoline ) because the world sits , in terms of thermal units, on far more coal than on oil. South African company Sasol produces about 40% of the country's demand of gas from coal for about 1.3 US$/gallon ( premium grade ). Stocks of coal miners ( Peabody, Arch coal, Massey, James River ) are expected to rise. Hans Dieter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 14:38:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7ILc1pO024112; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:38:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7ILbws4024067; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:37:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:37:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:46:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/18/06, Zell, Chris wrote: >> I think it's www.steorn.net > > Yeah, it made Reuters: > > http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-0 > 8-17T231302Z_01_L17772156_RTRUKOC_0_US-TECHNOLOGY-ENERGY.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome > -C3-scienceNews-2 > > http://tinyurl.com/hcfw7 > > Terry > The advertisement in the Economist can be downloaded here: http://www.steorn.net/en/downloads.aspx?p=6 Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 15:05:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IM5V4A008625; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:05:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IM5PHP008548; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:05:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:05:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Message from Amini Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:05:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155646.04141e88 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155520.04131e88@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155646.04141e88 mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818155520.04131e88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:05:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7IM5NEp008526 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:56:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Now, I would like to know how I could have this paper reviewed to >verify the claims in the paper. Please provide your advice. [snip] Perhaps the author doesn't consider Vortex to be an adequate review panel, but personally, I would love to see the paper. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 15:59:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IMnQuj001372; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:49:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IMnIhR001270; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:49:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eydMs0oCUvqRfqtwHBbZNVOpDpbmTj9mi3K8FmJmXm1not/cESbDUDitBDewrq7F5pwBIrMs2vg2ehWbRO6pUI/gs1KOSEgSUWG0+D7H3rMdZwN+tBvEvGl2FRC2efeYgQd9QqCvWju6YK6NZQMB6dCRHcpKTCmsTRz9QdoBfBw= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:49:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2A127BB CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/18/06, Zell, Chris wrote: > I think it's www.steorn.net Grimer is still on the international filter list. --- Grimer wrote: > >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:48:32 +0100 > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >From: Grimer > >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net > > > >At 11:01 am 18/08/2006 -0500, Zell wrote: > >>I think it's www.steorn.net > > > > > > > >It was. I've has a look at their website and > >they seem pretty plausible. > > > >Let's hope they have made the breakthrough > >in harnessing the Beta-atmosphere magnetic > >wind. > > > >I shall certainly follow developments with > >full attention. > > > >They seem to be taking the path that Jed > >recommends - which is good. > > > >Cheers, > > > >Frank Grimer > > > P.S. This was bounced from Vortex so I'm > sending it via you Terry - and thanks very > much for the patent. It seems well written > and easy to understand. I've down loaded it > an will scutinize it with interest. > > Frank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 16:00:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7IMxxWZ007606; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:00:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7IMxvxQ007586; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:59:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Jhm2MVP196WCraGTBJ7kGdSb1E2NOmqXcY7vclgTwm/037VnxHdHe93sQvX/+KisdpH/K2X+H9MHp1Usolw5O9HlwV5DWPlRVZn0lOX0sSXJu4eWgoPLR0jfEatDrnvkCJn++qM3u0rQstEB0jvLzhyLAOdiHf1xq5IcluE8Cc0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:59:55 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: George Got One Status: O X-Status: Clooney that is: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-briefs17.2aug17,1,1776320.story?coll=la-headlines-business> http://tinyurl.com/gz6ya Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 01:40:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7J8e1l9005861; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:40:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7J8dxgo005824; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:39:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SVNycb2LWigL7UFCVNh3NMkuX1lVdJcnQE3npgEnaBD81CgeU0xKgG51l2NNOjlC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006861983948205 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 02:39:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407544d563011348eff447e10ab208cd6a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.96 Resent-Message-ID: <9hrQqC.A.3aB.e5s5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Posted 08-03-06. > > 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" > > 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom > in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions > 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". > 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". > > 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". > Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+) possibly with a detectable large dipole moment? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Posted 08-03-06.
>
> 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
>
> 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
>      in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
>      2 H2O -----> H3O+ +  OH- ".
> 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
>
> 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH-  and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
>
Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+)
possibly with a detectable large dipole moment?
 
Fred
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 03:32:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JAWUK0022367; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:32:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JAWTqd022355; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:32:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:32:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=LLnYmSL2XhYZUeDYhiXsN+P/gsl83BNICHdrRqWsTkmriDsfHMVHNqehCwrBp5yN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068619103214155 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 04:32:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407127de7a1077f7585bd0ff77e5736a3d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Homework Time. :-) Dipolar Bonding in Water: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/diph2o.html ELectric Dipole Potential: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dipole.html#c2 Point Charge Potential: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/potpoi.html#c1 Point Charge Electric Fields and Voltages: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/e2p.html#c1 ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 8/19/2006 2:39:45 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water Posted 08-03-06. > > 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x" > > 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom > in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions > 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ". > 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ". > > 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters". > Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+) possibly with a detectable large dipole moment? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Homework Time.  :-)
 
Dipolar Bonding in Water:
 
 
 
ELectric Dipole Potential:
 
 
 
Point Charge Potential:
 
 
Point Charge Electric Fields and Voltages:
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/19/2006 2:39:45 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water

Posted 08-03-06.
>
> 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
>
> 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
>      in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
>      2 H2O -----> H3O+ +  OH- ".
> 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
>
> 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH-  and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
>
Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+)
possibly with a detectable large dipole moment?
 
Fred
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 04:09:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JB91QW006134; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 04:09:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JB8tVd006031; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 04:08:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 04:08:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eqGEeS474H2ayNPPFKjBsE1bmzU9u5FTZAtV2hGWkWEZGF5txgJPLRsAPmbnG8l8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006861911834576 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 05:08:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94029a6a12aa362bffa68f8bf22c83fa192350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Progress Terry? ................................................................................. Terry Blanton Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:10:06 -0700 I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have results from phase II for the small engines. Phase II will be the same as the first with 16 plates and a 24 VDC source. The big difference is that I will be using a battery source instead of one with ripple. Suggestions? We start Sunday. Terry ............................................. Dipolar Bonding in Water:http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/diph2o.htmlELectric Dipole Potential:http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dipole.html#c2Point Charge Potential:http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/potpoi.html#c1Point Charge Electric Fields and Voltages:http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/e2p.html#c1----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-lSent: 8/19/2006 2:39:45 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of WaterPosted 08-03-06.> > 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"> > 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom> in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of OH- hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions> 2 H2O -----> H3O+ + OH- ".> 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".> > 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH- and mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".> Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+) possibly with a detectable large dipole moment?My Conclusion FWIW:The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" and Hydration of the water.Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" intoa "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about750 kJ/mole of ions formed. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Progress Terry?

.................................................................................

Terry Blanton
Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:10:06 -0700

I will store the 2 litre results in some (Templar) masonic jars until
Tom is ready to test for activity in his hydrobooster and I have
results from phase II for the small engines.

Phase II will be the same as the first with 16 plates and a 24 VDC
source.  The big difference is that I will be using a battery source
instead of one with ripple.

Suggestions?  We start Sunday.

Terry
.............................................
 
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: 8/19/2006 2:39:45 AM 
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Field Induced Ionization & Ion Hydration of Water

Posted 08-03-06.
> 
> 1, "Water tends to form small "NanoPolymers", x H2O -----> (H2O)x"
> 
> 2, " The attraction for the proton of a molecule by a neighboring oxygen atom
>      in the (H2O)x nanopolymer causes some formation of  OH-  hydroxyl and hydronium H3O+ ions
>      2 H2O -----> H3O+ +  OH- ".
> 3, "The Dipole Moments of the individual water molecules are additive in the Polymers ".
> 
> 4, "Hydration of the ions forms nH2O.OH-  and  mH2O.H3O+ NanoClusters".
> 
Would step 4 create a " Composite Neutral NanoCluster " (nH2O.OH- : mH20.H3O+) 
possibly with a detectable large dipole moment?
 
My Conclusion FWIW:
 
The "Activation" step applies a field (at voltages well below electrolysis levels)
that aligns the nanopolymer dipoles and stimulates exothermic "Pseudo-Autoionization" 
and Hydration of the water.
&nbs

p;
Hence the pH will remain at about 7.0 even when all of the water is "activated" into
a "colloidal gel" of Nanoclusters.
 
The Nanoclusters will "burn" explosively in a microwave oven or an ICE releasing about
750 kJ/mole of ions formed. 
 
Fred
 

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 06:55:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JDt6N8028045; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:55:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JDt4hQ028017; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:55:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:55:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=R5P28N/e2y8y38eK6RyLKQf74okDGWyzpfcrTGYZSwYuv+3JtyENw3ZSerJ5gaVrv+3+Qsr99n9pO5iQobx3NtgAo19c74gOHJ6dtufw+GBg8dddgw/6H53BmyeXUyetMzQaJY1fZ8/JqW6r/RWRWxaNGaC9K7alntoQ06k3um4= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:55:03 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II In-Reply-To: <410-22006861911834576 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006861911834576 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Progress Terry? Well, I can tell you that a small two cycle engine will *not* run on charged water. That test was almost comical. The little bugger runs fine on nitromethane/oil fuel; but, the addition of just a few drops of "charged water" and oil chokes the engine. This one uses a 1.5 VDC glow plug for starting. The test truck was involved in a chain reaction accident on I-75 which also involved a white Scion xB like mine. Tom thought it *was* me in the Scion. The truck's frame was warped. We were looking at how to install the hydrobooster in Brady's SAAB and realized that he has an O2 detector at the intake (duh!). A little research showed that if you don't trick out the detector, you might actually see a *decrease* in mileage as the computer enriches the gasoline flow with increased O2. The alternative is to collect only the H2; but, then, that defeats the purpose of testing charged water, right? Brady is considering a way to bypass the detector for the test. Using a fixed resistor makes it difficult to start according to him. Meanwhile, I, who had given up flying (having traveled the globe as an electronics salesperson), was coerced into taking on a project with the Chicago Transit Authority. They are buying $1B in new AC propulsion trains and our engineering expert on trainline communications *died* at 58 years. Seems Bombardier (a word you don't say on an airplane :-), the successful contractor, is proposing using Internet Protocol to control the trains. Raliroads generally are adverse to innovation. At the same time, my MARTA project came off hold. It's a conspiracy, I tell you. When it rains it pours. But, you seem to already know that. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 08:43:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JFh3O2018806; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:43:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JFgsgM018712; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:42:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KLDMHedPiPU0moaGHVW7ezrdWr6FPRoLKvmsr4fVO1FV4O1T+19VlRqCcpOTqXge; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068619154219297 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:42:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a409359451b56a90d0ae823a2c2b7ddd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.137 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Progress Terry? > > Well, I can tell you that a small two cycle engine will *not* run on > charged water. That test was almost comical. The little bugger runs > fine on nitromethane/oil fuel; but, the addition of just a few drops > of "charged water" and oil chokes the engine. This one uses a 1.5 VDC > glow plug for starting. > Not Surprising, Terry. (I think you can make nitromethane using nitric acid and methanol CH3OH + HNO3 ----> CH3NO3 + H2O using aqua regia). Back to the subject, (nH2O.OH- : mH2O.H3O+)x Nanoclusters need to be highly concentrated and heated above 360 C in order to free up the H+ and e- so that neutral H is formed releasing the ~ 13.6 eV, then H + OH ----> H2O giving a net energy release of ~ 750 kJ per mole of formed Waterfuel Ion Pairs. IOW. your low compression 2 cycle model airplane engine and glow plug doesn't put the required energy into "a few drops of "charged water" " to reap the benefit of the 1080 kJ/mole of ions free energy exotherm of the pretreatment process. Microwaving, or Compression Ignition should do it without a glow plug, unless you use H2 or an alcohol pilot fuel to get things started. > > The test truck was involved in a chain reaction accident on I-75 which > also involved a white Scion xB like mine. Tom thought it *was* me in > the Scion. The truck's frame was warped. > Murphy's Law or Sabotage? > > We were looking at how to install the hydrobooster in Brady's SAAB and > realized that he has an O2 detector at the intake (duh!). A little > research showed that if you don't trick out the detector, you might > actually see a *decrease* in mileage as the computer enriches the > gasoline flow with increased O2. > Will it see water droplets? The O2 detector shouldn't change much on a Rainy Day in Georgia. :-) > > The alternative is to collect only the H2; but, then, that defeats the > purpose of testing charged water, right? > No, you only need enough H2 to pay back the alternator-battery electrolysis investment. > > Brady is considering a way > to bypass the detector for the test. Using a fixed resistor makes it > difficult to start according to him. > Out of my bailiwick, but the exhaust gas recycle adds CO2 making the pH more acid which preserves Jones' HOOH. :-) > > Meanwhile, I, who had given up flying (having traveled the globe as an > electronics salesperson), was coerced into taking on a project with > the Chicago Transit Authority. > Good for you. I rode the A Train to and from O'hare to a station near a 19th century Irish Bar in May of 1986. > > They are buying $1B in new AC > propulsion trains AC means Air Conditioned? > and our engineering expert on trainline > communications *died* at 58 years. Seems Bombardier (a word you don't > say on an airplane :-), > The "Hi Jack" greeting doesn't go over to well either. :-) > > the successful contractor, is proposing using > Internet Protocol to control the trains. Railroads generally are > adverse to innovation. > > At the same time, my MARTA project came off hold. It's a conspiracy, > I tell you. > Of Course. > > When it rains it pours. But, you seem to already know that. ;-) > Sure do, lately. Fred > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 09:14:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JGDvCZ008089; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:13:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JGDt3F008056; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:13:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:13:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LH+c9Nzjb428OXSppKTjrNB7f1vaa5n+5zuVdoirAVJ5qEWqoQIugdInMNad44CYxyooX7GDiwuO0ZVaD2QEaNUbTRoUy/h9XCHRB7xbcQ8r8B08oiM5QVeQc8jWpqaQpBkBokhHfwNLw8PM74mbdROIjkm0deV4zveQ40zA4is= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:13:53 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220068619154219297 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > IOW. your low compression 2 cycle model airplane engine > and glow plug doesn't put the required energy into "a few drops > of "charged water" " to reap the benefit of the 1080 kJ/mole of > ions free energy exotherm of the pretreatment process. > > Microwaving, or Compression Ignition should do it without a glow plug, > unless you use H2 or an alcohol pilot fuel to get things started. Unfortunately, I see no difference in microwaving. :-( > > > > The test truck was involved in a chain reaction accident on I-75 which > > also involved a white Scion xB like mine. Tom thought it *was* me in > > the Scion. The truck's frame was warped. > > > Murphy's Law or Sabotage? Murphy. > Will it see water droplets? The plan was to electrolyze and inject the gas into the air intake and compare any mileage change between distilled or "charged water". We were not trying to inject water directly. > The O2 detector shouldn't change much on a Rainy Day in Georgia. :-) Are you suggesting an ultrasonic vaporizer instead? > > They are buying $1B in new AC > > propulsion trains > AC means Air Conditioned? :-) No, trains have been air conditioned for years. Most electric trains here use DC propulsion; but, AC controllers and motors have improved to the point that they are preferable due to lower maintenance requirements. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 10:10:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JHACKj013945; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JHAAV9013919; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:10:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:10:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HiSMwn7zmqEoJMCJsWPtKQt3g41KSNb4vhxWgmyWuTlZxlPXbp6iAaU77vKf+gc5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006861917955746 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:09:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94069542ed85b600e24a4616280634a2c82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.17 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: \Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > IOW. your low compression 2 cycle model airplane engine > > and glow plug doesn't put the required energy into "a few drops > > of "charged water" " to reap the benefit of the 1080 kJ/mole of > > ions free energy exotherm of the pretreatment process. > > > > Microwaving, or Compression Ignition should do it without a glow plug, > > unless you use H2 or an alcohol pilot fuel to get things started. > > Unfortunately, I see no difference in microwaving. :-( > Based on Jones' microwaving in a dropper "faster than untreated water explosion" I'm not surprised, unless the power of the microwaves are hefty. > :? > > > > > > > The test truck was involved in a chain reaction accident on I-75 which > > > also involved a white Scion xB like mine. Tom thought it *was* me in > > > the Scion. The truck's frame was warped. > > > > > Murphy's Law or Sabotage? > > Murphy. > That's a relief. :-) > > > Will it see water droplets? > > The plan was to electrolyze and inject the gas into the air intake and > compare any mileage change between distilled or "charged water". We > were not trying to inject water directly. > If the (nH2O.OH- : mH2O.H3O+)x is swamped in a water drop its not likely to "expose" the hydrated ions. > > > The O2 detector shouldn't change much on a Rainy Day in Georgia. :-) > > Are you suggesting an ultrasonic vaporizer instead? > Sort of. Although ultrasonics might improve Nanocluster formation in the cell,(again Jones suggested agitation should help) a "Nebulizer" of sorts can be made by "pressurizing" the J Cell at atmospheric pressure so that the liquid feeds out through a dip tube through a spray/fogging nozzle in the air stream behind the "throttle body"/carbeuretor where the pressure is 16-18 Inches Hg at idle and increases toward atmospheric at full throttle. I suppose you could put the J Cell in the garden sprayer to hold a higher pressure. Otherwise using a bicycle pump to pressurize it, will keep you off the cell phone. > > > > They are buying $1B in new AC > > > propulsion trains > > AC means Air Conditioned? > > :-) No, trains have been air conditioned for years. Most electric > trains here use DC propulsion; but, AC controllers and motors have > improved to the point that they are preferable due to lower > maintenance requirements. > In my time low power DC controlled magnetic amplifiers were about it for controlling high power AC. Fred > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 11:39:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JIdOID029952; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:39:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JIdLMn029909; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:39:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=X3JHfrPhem0EKYYEY4WZ/74lLcfYDFVECarmRiVQoTPMFlNcz9Pl1wwn+vdwr5u4OjPhkaKTC4kuPPRWd3+rCYaLRxMm8/xVocpE7HK8jOnhBOqQdLYiYMFB8v06nvtXFCqut4enFzmuqmofZs68XlD8AlmyVxUCx3UwsgR8e8w= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:39:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II In-Reply-To: <410-22006861917955746 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006861917955746 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <7SvV8C.A.MTH.Zr15EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Based on Jones' microwaving in a dropper "faster than untreated water > explosion" > I'm not surprised, unless the power of the microwaves are hefty. Jones explosion seems to be due to NaCl in the water probably making it electrically conductive. > I suppose you could put the J Cell in the garden sprayer to hold a higher > pressure. > > Otherwise using a bicycle pump to pressurize it, will keep you off the cell > phone. I have a manual transmission. I can barely keep it between the lines; so, I pull over to use the cell. Hey, I have a neat air pump that runs off 12V with a pressure shutoff. You might be onto something here. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 12:20:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JJKTsB019726; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:20:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JJKRC2019702; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:20:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=QApIHZWeJk00o+pV40mZGvrsBrnPs2pf9HOXPNcBTx1FfGxkThLLyKgPSj41+GcR; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068619191416477 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:14:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940219ad179a30bdbbf42850260b2bd8318350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.140 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Based on Jones' microwaving in a dropper "faster than untreated water > > explosion" > > I'm not surprised, unless the power of the microwaves are hefty. > > Jones explosion seems to be due to NaCl in the water probably making > it electrically conductive. > Or hydrated Na+ or Cl- ions are recombining or such. > > > I suppose you could put the J Cell in the garden sprayer to hold a higher > > pressure. > > > > Otherwise using a bicycle pump to pressurize it, will keep you off the cell > > phone. > > I have a manual transmission. I can barely keep it between the lines; > so, I pull over to use the cell. > Good idea. > > Hey, I have a neat air pump that runs off 12V with a pressure shutoff. > You might be onto something here. :-) > I only hope it doesn't cause an explosion which could blow up your J Cell. OTOH, the J Cell (or any other electrolyzer) full of H, H2,OH, and O2 without N2 dilution seems like an explosion waiting to happen. A liquid pressure pump might be a better choice. Fred > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 17:07:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7J07TFd012765; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:07:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7J07RLm012725; Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:07:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:07:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=EnzfJwXNqtHEDBOzX0BvWjVQ+g+94x3KhLchL7vwaoPzviZaSLAOMXpV+OpXC4bPceZBg9UTSSqTnu5axZkdYHRh/Ac26K51ZtrH8CBgguYNmpDsvr+fsLzrdvmA3VT4nsaTUTTd4NC75BTJxxA3ALpFdTVAlK2FfcMhXhaPazc= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818195344.01e79ec0 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:05:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818061933.01e9f0f8 pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6k7YHB.A.pGD.-Yl5EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own fantasies... When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I deliberately spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to create a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take a look at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the world were or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would have a nice, stable world." Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and dress and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their way. Stability. You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives continuously unstable. P. At 03:18 PM 8/18/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > > The "stability" you talk about is the same kind of stability that you get > > when dogma - scientific or otherwise - rules. It's the stability of the > > grazing herd. Nothing of value is accomplished through this kind of > > deadness. > >Propaganda. > >Do you think meaningful change ONLY happens through violence? > >e.g. Canada did not take the America path to independence. > >Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 13:21:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JKKwHL019073; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:20:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JKKuDw019054; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:20:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:20:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Msn7hFijJFH1yZlVqbm7oPdJ4LeUkXapo8xNQZI+Oy4GfEDWO6+KK05bpFnu7KnMhOCh/OWWpAmxnel/Ou+Nke3KYaLy8gpkcF980ioPRhuEdFmxSuN1mvYCQX5KrpoEkk2rlsfuXm9efRahh+3GgITgpBUxvDqz0ODR65685gY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:20:54 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II In-Reply-To: <410-220068619191416477 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220068619191416477 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9ffxBB.A.ppE.oK35EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > A liquid pressure pump might be a better choice. Or maybe just gravity and a pin hole. Made a good clock and a Chinese torture device. Hey, I could hang an IV bag from the aerial and slow drip it into the intake. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 14:07:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JL7BQ7011342; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:07:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JL7A09011324; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:07:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:07:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WmvJxjzKu5ZhuuINs99tBvQX+q6AoHMUp79uA2j3DkvJVL5ZanDG52r0YsnCaFDA; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006861921646459 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:06:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400484e04891f26f502eea4258e075258a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > A liquid pressure pump might be a better choice. > > Or maybe just gravity and a pin hole. Made a good clock and a Chinese > torture device. > Nah. A junk yard (auto re-cyclers these days) should have electric fuel pumps on the cheap. Up to 90 Psi according to this: http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa050701a.htm > Hey, I could hang an IV bag from the aerial and slow drip it into the > intake. :-) Too ostentatious. Fred > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 14:28:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JLS1cj023834; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:28:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JLRxFn023799; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:27:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:27:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kTwPJn6l10NhKz8vjbMOqgcwzwBWCH7OW+Wqg5gsPEZeokktJWz6I2c4pp7KvXn0J7Nra7AEPtgy6k+UHqydHndfGI4zZrGNbuo9iOqBDOjN3nwt2xCkKaZ+ypgqP2iUhFHn/GCnq0JWhQ6m532ONJQOFlHZC650mfnO7YRnBO8= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:27:57 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II In-Reply-To: <410-22006861921646459 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006861921646459 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Nah. A junk yard (auto re-cyclers these days) should have electric fuel > pumps on the cheap. Up to 90 Psi according to this: > > http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa050701a.htm Yes, this surprised me when I was helping a friend troubleshoot an itsy-bitsy Mitsubishi. Wouldn't run. I asked if he had fuel and he said the pump would shoot it across the room. However, he was getting no fuel return. Seems today's cars have a supply and return pipe for the fuel with a pressure regulator in the path. He eventually measured 40 psi and the manual said 80 min. Not like the old carb days. Look at the pressure of a diesel fuel pump. I found it quite surprising. I am seriously considering finding an old carbureated clunker to play with. > > Hey, I could hang an IV bag from the aerial and slow drip it into the > > intake. :-) > > Too ostentatious. Not for me. ;-) Think about it . . . people will get out of your way!! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 16:43:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7JNhXWH024581; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7JNhVaq024552; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:43:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=oT+WlNsFucmkdd11LlVLhgzOHq+7SsPUZB3zbKWA+piqCooYxfeK+x6UjnUyUAQ3; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068619234314868 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joe Cell Phase II Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:43:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407cdb373ed70d7e86d82722e33b054c95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.54 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote. > > On 8/19/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Nah. A junk yard (auto re-cyclers these days) should have electric fuel > > pumps on the cheap. Up to 90 Psi according to this: > > > > http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa050701a.htm > > Yes, this surprised me when I was helping a friend troubleshoot an > itsy-bitsy Mitsubishi. Wouldn't run. I asked if he had fuel and he > said the pump would shoot it across the room. However, he was getting > no fuel return. Seems today's cars have a supply and return pipe for > the fuel with a pressure regulator in the path. > > He eventually measured 40 psi and the manual said 80 min. Not like > the old carb days. Look at the pressure of a diesel fuel pump. I > found it quite surprising. > > I am seriously considering finding an old carbureated clunker to play with. > Good idea, but, be sure to get one with two aerials located by the front windshield sun shade, the one on the left for the IV, the one on the right with a fox tail, a tall hefty one on the back to compliment your ham radio call letter license plate, white sidewall tires, curb whiskers (required) and fender skirts. Running boards, wobble-head on dash, fog lights, and the little traffic signal light in the rear window red when you step on the brake and green on cruise. Not to mention a Model A coil to light the excess fuel in the tailpipe flame thrower. > > > > Hey, I could hang an IV bag from the aerial and slow drip it into the > > > intake. :-) > > > > Too ostentatious. > > Not for me. ;-) Think about it . . . people will get out of your way!! > Your way for sure, if that J Cell "Boom Box" backfires. :-) Fred > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 00:38:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7K7cLGN016283; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:38:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7K7cKXT016273; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:38:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:38:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E81139.2050301 usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 02:37:29 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; Those of you who have been on this list for any length of time have heard the reports of cooling associated with F E machines. I am listening to Joshua P Warren, the author of How to Hunt Ghosts, being interviewed on C to C AM, http://www.lemurteam.com/ . What first got my attention was the subject of cooling associated with ghosts. This effect can be photographed with a thermo imaging camera, I've seen this phenomena. This was before our local CBS affiliate dropped Unexplained Mysteries, bummer. Mr. Warren went on to mention electrostatic potential meters, as a tool to detect ghostly phenomena. Then he mentioned ion wind, which is induced by these potentials. It would seem to me that if I were in this field, perhaps my body would get cold. However, would this phenomena manifest in open air, the way it did for the thermo imaging camera. Does anybody know anything about this? Just when I thought things couldn't get any weirder, he recounted a seance held in hanger 84 as Roswell. This exercise was conducted as a part of producing an episode of Discovery, which as I recall, is a program which airs on one of the alphabet channels. During the seance, a spirit snake showed up on several of the high definition video cameras they were using. Discovery has decided against airing the video, well there are somethings which conflict with the agenda of the Powers That Be, and that, IMHO, is one of them. Art Bell's question was where he could get a copy of that DVD. I'd like to see it too, but I'm not going to hold my breath. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 01:33:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7K8XmaP007676; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 01:33:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7K8XlBD007652; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 01:33:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 01:33:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=AB1Sty7sIL9Cg1mMkgEp45dUI+mi/y2Q1v7mGTUE0krKF4pd1h0PqnN+XH5EA2xZPiiVtoGR18x+I5f9ls/Ei0VjANX4Cge3A/z1R1DUBYLsrEBZst4Pcq3IAxjH/pWRhIoAuoNdxP8iADiafrgRA7/GdfBOz7u0Zyiai8hBceI= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 04:33:45 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_29371_31337403.1156062825013" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Where did Vortex get lost? Hey Bill Beatty .... Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_29371_31337403.1156062825013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vos., We all see war and political and religious aspects in the news and in our lives. I am not suggesting to ignore this. I am asking if any Vos would like to get back to science.... Further... it seems it may be possible a cogent and well put together science will shift the maybe some of the thinking and ideas and balances of ideas and ...with hard work or at least Some work.... render some of or all of these ideas closer to some or all of the ideals persons who read Vortex have tried to subscribe to. I may not have written this very well.... I hope the heart of the communication is within the letters. Can any one say or write this better? Is there some reason the idea and heart of Vortex, the well moderated vortex which has and hopefully will draw present and future vortex contributors has changed? Will we ..as vo like persons TRY to get back on the beam and leave the political to some other aspect of the discussion groups? Will ANY vo support this idea? Hey Bill! ''' It could be we rest to strongly on Bill Beatty, and do not within our selves remember how to "DO" and write and discuss science ... Any comments? Anyone wish to try? H ------=_Part_29371_31337403.1156062825013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
 Dear Vos.,
 
       We all see war and political and religious aspects in the news and in our lives.
       I am not suggesting to ignore this.
 
     I am asking if any Vos would like to get back to science....
 
     Further... it seems it may be possible a cogent and well put together science will shift the maybe some of  the thinking and ideas and balances of ideas and ...with hard work or at least Some work.... render some of  or all of these ideas closer to 
some or all of the ideals  persons who read Vortex have tried to subscribe to.
 
      I may not have written this very well.... I hope the heart of the communication is
within the letters.
 
             Can any one say or write this better?
 
          Is there some reason the idea and heart of Vortex, the well moderated vortex which has and hopefully will draw present and future vortex contributors has changed?
 
      Will we ..as vo like persons TRY to get back on the beam and leave the political to some other aspect of the discussion groups?
 
     
   Will ANY vo support this idea?    Hey Bill!
'''
 
     It could be we rest to strongly on Bill Beatty, and do not within our selves remember how to "DO" and write and discuss science ...  
 
  Any comments?
 Anyone wish to try?
 
                                    H 
------=_Part_29371_31337403.1156062825013-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 06:31:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7KDUUH8032257; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 06:30:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7KCdApn025416; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mdXtlIDhFBD3PIlcyKVD/xYMWqm+iFSfYuFtkecrffXYxK1rFud5JKWF9m/pauPUT580Pqg55YgokJSE38gIM2uHCfkMVNeZLCzinTbRehg/KFnFIIsGQ4MgGTzy1+QRbeIDrUJP5PCryIZaVMBME1TD2WqGp1rXzrmmoeQFeKI= ; Message-ID: <20060820123902.23014.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <44E81139.2050301 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2114723946-1156077542=:21524" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-DfutD.A.1MG.qfF6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2114723946-1156077542=:21524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom, My Agema 750 Thermovision camera was used to prove to the patent office - that heat loss within the coil and all attached wires was detected when the plasma drive was fired. The device is not a free energy machine, but fusion was indicated using an Eberline PNC4 Neuron counter. SEM/EDS analysis showed transmutation elements are consistently generated from the Plasma reaction, and my Triton III tritium counter measures some form of radioactive gas which is detectable only after firing the Plasma. In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events. Chris thomas malloy wrote: Vortexians; Those of you who have been on this list for any length of time have heard the reports of cooling associated with F E machines. I am listening to Joshua P Warren, the author of How to Hunt Ghosts, being interviewed on C to C AM, http://www.lemurteam.com/ . What first got my attention was the subject of cooling associated with ghosts. This effect can be photographed with a thermo imaging camera, I've seen this phenomena. This was before our local CBS affiliate dropped Unexplained Mysteries, bummer. Mr. Warren went on to mention electrostatic potential meters, as a tool to detect ghostly phenomena. Then he mentioned ion wind, which is induced by these potentials. It would seem to me that if I were in this field, perhaps my body would get cold. However, would this phenomena manifest in open air, the way it did for the thermo imaging camera. Does anybody know anything about this? Just when I thought things couldn't get any weirder, he recounted a seance held in hanger 84 as Roswell. This exercise was conducted as a part of producing an episode of Discovery, which as I recall, is a program which airs on one of the alphabet channels. During the seance, a spirit snake showed up on several of the high definition video cameras they were using. Discovery has decided against airing the video, well there are somethings which conflict with the agenda of the Powers That Be, and that, IMHO, is one of them. Art Bell's question was where he could get a copy of that DVD. I'd like to see it too, but I'm not going to hold my breath. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-2114723946-1156077542=:21524 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Tom,
 
My Agema 750 Thermovision camera was used to prove to the patent office - that heat loss within the coil and all attached wires was detected when the plasma drive was fired. The device is not a free energy machine, but fusion was indicated using an Eberline PNC4 Neuron counter. SEM/EDS analysis showed transmutation elements are consistently generated from the Plasma reaction, and my Triton III tritium counter measures some form of radioactive gas which is detectable only after firing the Plasma.
 
In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events.
 
Chris
 


thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
Vortexians;

Those of you who have been on this list for any length of time have
heard the reports of cooling associated with F E machines. I am
listening to Joshua P Warren, the author of How to Hunt Ghosts, being
interviewed on C to C AM, http://www.lemurteam.com/ . What first got my
attention was the subject of cooling associated with ghosts. This effect
can be photographed with a thermo imaging camera, I've seen this
phenomena. This was before our local CBS affiliate dropped Unexplained
Mysteries, bummer.

Mr. Warren went on to mention electrostatic potential meters, as a tool
to detect ghostly phenomena. Then he mentioned ion wind, which is
induced by these potentials. It would seem to me that if I were in this
field, perhaps my body would get cold. However, would this phenomena
manifest in open air, the way it did for the thermo imaging camera. Does
anybody know anything about this?

Just when I thought things couldn't get any weirder, he recounted a
seance held in hanger 84 as Roswell. This exercise was conducted as a
part of producing an episode of Discovery, which as I recall, is a
program which airs on one of the alphabet channels. During the seance, a
spirit snake showed up on several of the high definition video cameras
they were using. Discovery has decided against airing the video, well
there are somethings which conflict with the agenda of the Powers That
Be, and that, IMHO, is one of them. Art Bell's question was where he
could get a copy of that DVD. I'd like to see it too, but I'm not going
to hold my breath.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-2114723946-1156077542=:21524-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 09:01:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7KG07a5012927; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7KFmoRM005631; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:48:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:48:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c6c46b$dc5fd2d0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:17:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6C441.DAE755B0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [VO}:Re: Where did Vortex get lost? Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6C441.DAE755B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6C441.DAE755B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6C441.DAE755B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blankjohn wrote, =20 We all see war and political and religious aspects in the news and in = our lives.=20 I am not suggesting to ignore this. I am asking if any Vos would like to get back to science.... Howdy john, Hey, I know what you mean. Once in awhile I try to interject a bit of = humor about Texas as a way to cool it. All the same to you I will just stick with what ole Sheriff Jim said ( = may recall he was the law back when the best lil ho'house in Texas was = at its prime. When asked what he intended to do about all the = lawbreaking out at the chicken ranch ( site about 12 miles from my = home).. Sheriff Jim quipped.. What? arrest the lawbreakers going out to = the chicken ranch? I hate to tell you but I'd have to arrest the = governor, the legislature and the attorney general if I did. Who would = be left to run Texas? Talk about science.. look at the links below and consider where science = is pursuing insanity .. err... or visa-verse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generato= r http://www.tfd.chalmers.se/~valeri/EMP.html http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00374018.pdf=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6C441.DAE755B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
john wrote,
 
 
We all see war and political and = religious=20 aspects in the news and in our lives. =
       I am not suggesting to ignore=20 this.
 
     I am asking if any Vos would like to get = back to=20 science....
 
Howdy john,
Hey, I know what you mean. Once in awhile I try to interject a bit = of humor=20 about Texas as a way to cool it.
 
All the same to you I will just stick with what ole Sheriff Jim = said ( may=20 recall he was the law back when the best lil ho'house in Texas was at = its prime.=20 When asked what he intended to do about all the lawbreaking out at the = chicken=20 ranch ( site about 12 miles from my home).. Sheriff Jim quipped.. = What?=20 arrest the lawbreakers going out to the chicken ranch? I hate to tell = you but=20 I'd have to arrest the governor, the legislature and the attorney = general=20 if I did. Who would be left to run Texas?
 
Talk about science.. look at the links below and consider where = science is=20 pursuing insanity .. err... or visa-verse
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compressi= on_generator
http://www.tfd.chalm= ers.se/~valeri/EMP.html
http= ://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00374018.pdf <= /FONT>
 
Richard
 
------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6C441.DAE755B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6C441.DAE755B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c6c46b$c39bcbf0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6C441.DAE755B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 12:49:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7KJnHnZ025787; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:49:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7KJnEYI025756; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:49:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:49:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E88342.6090603 usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:44:02 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling References: <20060820123902.23014.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060820123902.23014.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Tom, > > In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events. > > Chris I agree, the reason for the post was to raise the question of how the cold spots are formed. Do you have an opinion as to why the coil got cold? IMHO, something (an electostatic potential?) is interacting with the matter, resulting in the cooling. I suppose that the air in the vicinity of the ghostly manifestation gets cold. I'm wondering about possible connections between the two phenomena. I couldn't resist mentioning the snake entities. You will recall the missing NASA moon tapes, do you really think that they lost them? Joshua Warren mentioned harassment as a result of his research. Since snake entities, and The Powers that Be, fit right into my paradigm, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Discovery to run those videos on TV, it just doesn't fit with their agenda. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 15:03:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7KM3bie001691; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:03:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7KM3aTj001676; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:03:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:03:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xx7Tsa9a6eQuHEqDPy0FIXi6wxm+9KubkgCoNev8I6le2SKZqqNZmqo3DTKXQMNvZGC+krzz9TAx5svBkiDpeWehFeHVj2eFXL/64sy7mC/jV+KaRyOKHQ1y87VS7IUaNeQdUoxGlm0++oXLo4X/rOprvOvAboKqr+UdZGnzYTs= ; Message-ID: <20060820220334.55381.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <44E88342.6090603 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-848050909-1156111414=:60975" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-848050909-1156111414=:60975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control. Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed. It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of intelligent life in the universe. Meanwhile, other intelligent life has learned to make as little contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet Earth. As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side effects. It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense plasma pulses. Chris thomas malloy wrote: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Tom, > > In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events. > > Chris I agree, the reason for the post was to raise the question of how the cold spots are formed. Do you have an opinion as to why the coil got cold? IMHO, something (an electostatic potential?) is interacting with the matter, resulting in the cooling. I suppose that the air in the vicinity of the ghostly manifestation gets cold. I'm wondering about possible connections between the two phenomena. I couldn't resist mentioning the snake entities. You will recall the missing NASA moon tapes, do you really think that they lost them? Joshua Warren mentioned harassment as a result of his research. Since snake entities, and The Powers that Be, fit right into my paradigm, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Discovery to run those videos on TV, it just doesn't fit with their agenda. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-848050909-1156111414=:60975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control. Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed. It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of intelligent life in the universe. Meanwhile, other  intelligent life has learned to make as little contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet Earth.
 
As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side effects. It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense plasma pulses.
 
Chris

thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
Christopher Arnold wrote:

> Tom,
>
> In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events.
>
> Chris


I agree, the reason for the post was to raise the question of how the
cold spots are formed. Do you have an opinion as to why the coil got
cold? IMHO, something (an electostatic potential?) is interacting with
the matter, resulting in the cooling. I suppose that the air in the
vicinity of the ghostly manifestation gets cold. I'm wondering about
possible connections between the two phenomena.

I couldn't resist mentioning the snake entities. You will recall the
missing NASA moon tapes, do you really think that they lost them? Joshua
Warren mentioned harassment as a result of his research. Since snake
entities, and The Powers that Be, fit right into my paradigm, I'm not
surprised. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Discovery to run
those videos on TV, it just doesn't fit with their agenda.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --0-848050909-1156111414=:60975-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 19:47:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7L2kZt8014829; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7L2kWGM014802; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:46:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:46:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Dj7rXNBW3VRfftHkHLWkmK12+Yf8dmx+0qh/6STL8uotYPd7g/ZEg4eHLvUYwM+u; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200681212461665 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:46:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aec3fb561f8c8f3c4ec9f5f00bf7036b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.94 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: MagnetoHydrodynamic Assisted Electrolysis Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If an electrolyte is pumped through the vertical magnetic field of a rectangular plastic channel with conductive plates` (with gas exit vent standpipes) on each side to collect-discharge the cations and anions on each of the plates. A battery might not be needed if the plates a shorted together. OTOH, a much lower voltage on the plates might work. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If an  electrolyte is pumped through the vertical magnetic field of a
rectangular plastic channel with conductive plates`
(with gas exit vent standpipes) on each side to collect-discharge
the cations and anions on each of the plates. A battery might not be needed 
if the plates a shorted together.
OTOH, a much lower voltage on the plates might work.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 22:11:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7L5B2Po025457; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:11:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7L5B0rf025434; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:11:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:11:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:10:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002601c6c2b2$6d48c290$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow. Might want to unstack the soap boxes a bit, you'll get a nose bleed at that altitude. I can't say I am happy with everything my country has done, but I am certainly proud of many things she has done and continues to do. I guess I am also part of the problem... but solving it how? Which shining example in this world today do you consider the ideal? How long would the world survive if the USA downgraded to that ideal country's overall financial, social, scientific, technological, crisis assistance, and security contributions to the rest of the world? Who's aircraft carriers will show up at the next tsunami to provide medial assistance and clean water? Who will cover the $27B USD shells out ever year in financial aid? http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp The loathing of America is hypocritical, it is the single greatest benefactor on ALL fronts to the whole world. Our enemies (inside and out) eat from our open hands as they curse our collective name. The rage comes from having to live with that reality and the understanding their flawed vision of the world is wholly unsustainable in reality; socialism, communism, liberalism, fundamentalism, etc. -j -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:38 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Kyle - read John Berry's post. Be ashamed of being American. If you're not, then it is people like you who are the problem that needs solving. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 22:55:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7L5t0TK011912; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:55:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7L5svQe011876; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:54:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E94A93.4020203 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:54:27 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling References: <20060820220334.55381.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060820220334.55381.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control. Some paranormal events are in their interest, the type that they control > Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed. The ruling elite goes along with some paranormal, and some they surpress, having photographic evidence of snakes, it would seem conflicts with their agenda, this is, IMHO, personal. > It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more > comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of > intelligent life in the universe. That's the excuse that's some think tank came up with in the '50's > Meanwhile, other intelligent life has learned to make as little > contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet > Earth. My explanation involves evil fallen angles and their human cohorts. > > As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an > inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side > effects. If you have cohered the ZPE, AFAIK, you are the only person who has done it. I'm wondering about the nature of the plasma pulses, I have no clue what you are talking about. Is the plasma organized? I'm thinking about a torroidial plasma vortex > It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense > plasma pulses. I wonder, are electrostatic potentials are related to plasma? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 23:30:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7L6UDgt029170; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:30:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7L6M72p024498; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:22:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:22:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060820232318.02b2bfa0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:26:24 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Walter Meyerhof, professor emeritus of physics, dies at 84 Status: O X-Status: http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2006/june7/meyerhof-060706.html Memorial services were held on Sunday, July 16, 2006 at 3:00 PM in the Main Dining Room of the Stanford Faculty Club. "science advances ... " - Max Planck From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 23:48:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7L6mCgi005247; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:48:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7L6m9W1005223; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:48:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:48:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:48:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6C4C3.D66C0CB0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20060820220334.55381.qmail web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6C4C3.D66C0CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had an odd inspiration the other day... energy state frequencies. In short, a linking factor to what is traditionally referred to as multi-dimensional or paranormal phenomenon. We all swim in the same standing wave (yes, I am a Tessien acolyte), cross-overs or overlaps from localized natural or intentional harmonics coupling. ZPE is a nice catch basket in that same category. 'free energy' not truly free but harvested from another 'wavelength' if you will. Thermodynamics and conservation of energy maintained with sloshing between field states? Could explain why most reported non-nuclear devices are electromagnetic in nature, they may generate pulsed harmonics. Helps pull in the Keelys and Schauburgers inside the perimeter. Nicely packages ghosts, UFOs, and time travel observations as well. Might be the key theory behind developing human FTL travel. Nothing to back this up.... just the ramblings of an over active imagination I guess. Raptor, you get that last part? No need to send the MIBs... 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Arnold [mailto:pulsed_ignition yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:04 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control. Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed. It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of intelligent life in the universe. Meanwhile, other intelligent life has learned to make as little contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet Earth. As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side effects. It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense plasma pulses. Chris thomas malloy wrote: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Tom, > > In my opinion, ghosts have nothing to do with these events. > > Chris I agree, the reason for the post was to raise the question of how the cold spots are formed. Do you have an opinion as to why the coil got cold? IMHO, something (an electostatic potential?) is interacting with the matter, resulting in the cooling. I suppose that the air in the vicinity of the ghostly manifestation gets cold. I'm wondering about possible connections between the two phenomena. I couldn't resist mentioning the snake entities. You will recall the missing NASA moon tapes, do you really think that they lost them? Joshua Warren mentioned harassment as a result of his research. Since snake entities, and The Powers that Be, fit right into my paradigm, I'm not surprised. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Discovery to run those videos on TV, it just doesn't fit with their agenda. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6C4C3.D66C0CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had=20 an odd inspiration the other day... energy state frequencies.  In = short, a=20 linking factor to what is traditionally referred to as multi-dimensional = or=20 paranormal phenomenon.  We all swim in the same standing wave (yes, = I am a=20 Tessien acolyte), cross-overs or overlaps from localized natural or = intentional=20 harmonics coupling.  ZPE is a nice catch basket in that same=20 category.  'free energy' not truly free but harvested from another=20 'wavelength' if you will.  Thermodynamics and conservation of = energy=20 maintained with sloshing between field states?  Could explain why = most=20 reported non-nuclear devices are electromagnetic in nature, they may = generate=20 pulsed harmonics.  Helps pull in the Keelys and = Schauburgers inside=20 the perimeter.  Nicely packages ghosts, UFOs, and time=20 travel observations as well.  Might be the = key theory=20 behind developing human FTL travel.
 
Nothing to back this up.... just the = ramblings of an=20 over active imagination I guess.  Raptor, you = get that last=20 part?  No need to send the MIBs... 8^)
 
-j
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Arnold=20 [mailto:pulsed_ignition yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 20, = 2006 5:04=20 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: = electrostatic=20 cooling

Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in = control.=20 Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be = allowed. It is=20 not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more comfortable = in=20 believing that the human race is all that exists of intelligent life in = the=20 universe. Meanwhile, other  intelligent life has learned to make as = little=20 contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet=20 Earth.
 
As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping = an=20 inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side = effects.=20 It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense plasma=20 pulses.
 
Chris

thomas malloy = <temalloy usfamily.net>=20 wrote:
Christopher=20 Arnold wrote:

> Tom,
>
> In my opinion, ghosts = have=20 nothing to do with these events.
>
> Chris


I = agree,=20 the reason for the post was to raise the question of how the
cold = spots=20 are formed. Do you have an opinion as to why the coil got
cold? = IMHO,=20 something (an electostatic potential?) is interacting with
the = matter,=20 resulting in the cooling. I suppose that the air in the
vicinity = of the=20 ghostly manifestation gets cold. I'm wondering about
possible = connections=20 between the two phenomena.

I couldn't resist mentioning the = snake=20 entities. You will recall the
missing NASA moon tapes, do you = really think=20 that they lost them? Joshua
Warren mentioned harassment as a = result of his=20 research. Since snake
entities, and The Powers that Be, fit right = into my=20 paradigm, I'm not
surprised. I'm not going to hold my breath = waiting for=20 Discovery to run
those videos on TV, it just doesn't fit with = their=20 agenda.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! = --=20 http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! = ---


Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new=20 Yahoo! Mail Beta. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6C4C3.D66C0CB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 04:26:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LBQMQo010548; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:26:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LBQH2I010473; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:26:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:26:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K72rnz6j4gjj1be1ZHAlSkhWvNs61L+1cPzeb1GV809hnRllVMm3cBWRADhMhPTiQcYGzkSKeSLCZ2IzGKpZt48R4sALuYYYnxBNGbSXyuwLjvqG4XMGxmF18o2XtWBwvgxa8WsyxIQ0Vc8KLm7ua/YMXolWRqBE2lArUY0MTCo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:26:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MagnetoHydrodynamic Assisted Electrolysis In-Reply-To: <410-2200681212461665 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-2200681212461665 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <32p8z.A.kjC.VhZ6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/20/06, Frederick Sparber wrote: > If an electrolyte is pumped through the vertical magnetic field of a > rectangular plastic channel with conductive plates` > (with gas exit vent standpipes) on each side to collect-discharge > the cations and anions on each of the plates. A battery might not be needed > if the plates a shorted together. > OTOH, a much lower voltage on the plates might work. Wouldn't there be a Lenz effect to oppose the magnetic field? IOW, ya gotta pay the piper. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 05:44:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LCi7ui019846; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 05:44:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LCi5uq019820; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 05:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 05:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44E9AA7B.6000706 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:43:39 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Where did Vortex get lost? Hey Bill Beatty .... References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: john herman wrote: > We all see war and political and religious aspects in the news > and in our lives. I am not suggesting to ignore this. > > I am asking if any Vos would like to get back to science.... > > Can any one say or write this better? > Having drawn criticism for my religious comments in the past, I do my best to hold it down and discuss science. IMHO, my exchange with Chris Arnold on electrostatic cooling was an example of this. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 06:07:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LD6keY000449; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:06:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LD6iJl000425; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:06:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=uDQw8dmJbQfnsgo+31jeRRg5RBEC6LswPaI/brNsNKFY+sPwVLq3VLoN5QJKiZal; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200681211364881 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MagnetoHydrodynamic Assisted Electrolysis Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:06:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404a71b5e83dcf939a71a256ead85c1fc5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Terry wrote. > > Wouldn't there be a Lenz effect to oppose the magnetic field? IOW, ya > gotta pay the piper. > For sure, the force on the ions Bqv = mv^2/r has to be proved by the pump. But, if you dig a tunnel between the west cost and Death Valley, or or add salt to water flowing from lake TitiCaca. Or get Grimer to pee in the headwaters of the Thames. Fred > > Terry > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Terry wrote.
>
> Wouldn't there be a Lenz effect to oppose the magnetic field?  IOW, ya
> gotta pay the piper.
> For sure, the force on the ions Bqv = mv^2/r has to be
proved by the pump. 
 
But, if you dig a tunnel between the west cost and Death Valley, or
or add salt to water flowing from lake TitiCaca.
 
Or get Grimer to pee in the headwaters of the Thames.
 
Fred
>
> Terry
>
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 08:02:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LF2NM5006290; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:02:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LF2CGL006196; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <051501c6c52f$0b580350$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:35:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <-KeTDC.A.sgB.zrc6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Status: O X-Status: >From that hotbed of science - Malaysia... this appeared on another forum http://thestar.com.my/news/story.aspfile=/2006/8/16/nation/15153258&sec=nation Well, Malaysia is a hotbed of many things.... >From the Article: "Scientist claims to have cracked water-fuel secret" JOHOR BARU: A car that runs on water and petrol? That would be a breakthrough technology in these times of escalating fuel prices. And one man says it can be done. Dr Halim Mohd Ali, 40, claims he can reduce fuel consumption by half with the Hydrogen Fuel Technology (HFT) product: "hydroxene". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 08:44:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LFiUTb000529; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:44:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LFiSTf000503; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:44:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dgKgHQzDCQ44vQ+SualZ7uX74yk4uyPUqZxG3z4BFKC6DhnlNi2+f+gFcpn526dN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006812115435877 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:43:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403df24355b45ecabdbec32e22c3c70de5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.25 Resent-Message-ID: <386Ci.A.pH.bTd6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: Couldn't open the URL, Jones, but maybe it's the oxygen enriched air doing the job in the cylinder instead of the catalytic converter in the exhaust pipe. A medical O2 concentrator will deliver 6 liters per minute 96+ % pure O2 with 575 watts input, about one horsepower. (~50 amps at 12 Volts off the alternator) Fred > > From that hotbed of science - Malaysia... this appeared on > another forum > > http://thestar.com.my/news/story.aspfile=/2006/8/16/nation/15153258&sec=nati on > > Well, Malaysia is a hotbed of many things.... > > From the Article: > "Scientist claims to have cracked water-fuel secret" > JOHOR BARU: A car that runs on water and petrol? That would be a > breakthrough technology in these times of escalating fuel prices. > And one man says it can be done. > > Dr Halim Mohd Ali, 40, claims he can reduce fuel consumption by > half with the Hydrogen Fuel Technology (HFT) product: "hydroxene". > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 09:20:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LGKSHd025338; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:20:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LGFet7022109; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:15:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <053c01c6c53d$03ca3be0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006812115435877 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:15:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Status: O X-Status: Fred > Couldn't open the URL It got truncated... try this one: http://tinyurl.com/nofd8 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 10:10:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LHAMln025910; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:10:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LHAJ42025883; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:10:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:10:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H47umSbgJzeXVqnhAmJGdFEZtB0CQbNVOjzmbJTSwzl/4sYsPYjrUKlxBLCeDDByhxSHIeHnS4ENbKywQ8GeF7tBg2hVBAtPmyNMGvyQR9tpvOcGs51eoxNRmy2ubiTM5F2+NM4ivqxxB2bQoN8RZmp8zAmeUXEUktmByuHNS+Y= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:10:16 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim In-Reply-To: <053c01c6c53d$03ca3be0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006812115435877 earthlink.net> <053c01c6c53d$03ca3be0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/21/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Fred > > > Couldn't open the URL > > It got truncated... try this one: > > http://tinyurl.com/nofd8 More here: http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage4726.html Note the snide remark re CF. Why does this remind me of the Philipino claim? But looks like they are going into production: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/malaysian_auto_.html Hope they got good valves! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 10:40:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LHe8IM014493; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:40:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LHQef3004556; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:26:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <058201c6c546$ee33e9c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-22006812115435877 earthlink.net> <053c01c6c53d$03ca3be0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:26:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Status: O X-Status: Terry Turns out the system is the well known Pacheco system of aluminum and sodium. It works - and fairly efficiently - but it requires a recycling infrastructure. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 11:40:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LIeDRJ016880; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:40:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LILQw1007393; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:21:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:21:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UN0kXOZ/8TIpE5RiHcfKlRUBxMzcoNc7xX1jgEw8nZ3Q73xSv9/NCxEiOt08nEChCl/nhnMDTnJacOllOGlrR/Ue1rBxfbytU93u+shzzfp0S0iJn+L1/UW0UOR/P2fuf5BkuhU1beYtMWwVC7wFP72mC5buTCL0cLJzQSGhHmE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:21:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim In-Reply-To: <058201c6c546$ee33e9c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22006812115435877 earthlink.net> <053c01c6c53d$03ca3be0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <058201c6c546$ee33e9c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/21/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry > > Turns out the system is the well known Pacheco system of aluminum > and sodium. > > It works - and fairly efficiently - but it requires a recycling > infrastructure. Out of the doorway the bullets rip To the sound of the beat Boomp, Boomp, Boomp Another one bites the dust Another one bites the dust And another one gone, and another one gone Another one bites the dust "It is rumored that Ross and Wilson lost their job at WZGC (possibly after getting the WABC job) by dedicating Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" to one of serial killer Wayne William's young victims (Atlanta's "missing & murdered children" case.) Supposedly, they were kicked out of the station while the song was playing." http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/radio/fm.html I was listening while on my way to college that day. Almost wrecked my car laughing. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 12:20:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LJK89G007183; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:20:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LIsS5u025023; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:54:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZOYowlh6FcSd1OX4LRsdGxsSkoBCTLXNip5+fBN+f3u/03QjeKcBIm2epAg0pGL/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068121185232378 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:52:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b32182853286750903ea994b18761c89350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.48 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > Terry > > Turns out the system is the well known Pacheco system of aluminum > and sodium. > > It works - and fairly efficiently - but it requires a recycling > infrastructure. > Are you kidding? Water Soluble, Sodium Aluminate Catalyst: 2 Na + OH- + 2 Al (54 lbs) + 6 H2O ---> 2 Al(OH)4- + 3 H2 (6 lbs) The Al(OH)4- is converted to Al(OH)3 which is then heated to convert to Al2O3 + H2O, then electrolyzed in the Hall process ( Cell 5 to 7 volts at 20,000 amps, 10 to 12 Kw-Hr/Lb) to get Aluminum and Carbon Dioxide(from the graphite anodes). 54 x 12 Kw-Hr = 648 Kw-Hr to get 6 lbs of H2 which requires 6 x 25 Kw-hr = 150 Kw-Hr? :-) Even if you only used the Joe Cell for a Hood Ornament you could beat that. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 12:28:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LJS3QF011653; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:28:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LJRxeT011536; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:27:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:27:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05b901c6c556$f5c251d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:21:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Pacheco hydrogen system Status: O X-Status: Here is the Pacheco story: http://www.fevj.org/FEV-Pacheco-generator.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 15:06:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LM6kIG025152; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:06:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LM6csw025025; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:06:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:06:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b7rdeNKeM95TFpu1e8nVoNNJetZTcxluevPnCYjNt02K71X+J24EmXu7lzhGVqs29CT1MiXroe1uq/4Oio6ytdjKFX0wm6j0tcr9TVy6OIXYNVoS/ATKkrAuytDjMG2cW6akitD4epX2emoml4Wi9jl4x6+fxBYRHfdCl+kcLDA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:06:37 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Pacheco hydrogen system In-Reply-To: <05b901c6c556$f5c251d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <05b901c6c556$f5c251d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/21/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Here is the Pacheco story: > > http://www.fevj.org/FEV-Pacheco-generator.php Looking at the patent, it seems "bi-polar" is the operative word. :-) Damn, I am becoming a s(k)eptic! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 15:56:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LMu6VQ022994; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LMu5bP022981; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05fa01c6c574$fa0704c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SciAm Sept. Status: RO X-Status: Scientific American SEPTEMBER 2006 Special Energy Edition ... as always - thorough, safe & lightweight. Yet beautifully illustrated ! .... which is slightly preferable to thoroughly lightweight and poorly illustrated. CONTENTS FEATURES ROLE FOR FISSION The Nuclear Option, By John M. Deutch and Ernest J. Moniz Nuclear power could stave off more than a billion tons of carbon emissions annually INTRODUCTION A Climate Repair Manual By Gary Stix Coping with global warming will take innovations in both energy technology and policy ENERGY EFFICIENCY An Efficient Solution By Eberhard K. Jochem In buildings and in industrial processes, using power more judiciously is the quickest, cheapest solution FUEL CELLS AND MORE High Hopes for Hydrogen By Joan Ogden Hydrogen-fueled cars could slash carbon emissions, but it won't happen soon CLEAN POWER The Rise of Renewable Energy By Daniel M. Kammen Solar cells, wind turbines and biofuels are poised to become major energy sources CARBON CAPTURE AND STORAGE What to Do about Coal By David G. Hawkins, Daniel A. Lashof and Robert H. Williams Coal is plentiful, but we must manage its environmental dark side STRATEGY A Plan to Keep Carbon in Check By Robert H. Socolow and Stephen W. Pacala Multiple technologies, each taking a slice out of carbon dioxide emissions, could slow warming Web-only sidebar: U.S. Stabilization Wedges SPECULATIVE TECHNOLOGY Plan B for Energy By W. Wayt Gibbs Eventually, even more radical energy sources will be needed. Here are some possibilities under consideration AUTOMOTIVE ANSWERS Fueling Our Transportation Future By John B. Heywood New technologies, lighter vehicles and alternative fuels can lower greenhouse gas releases from cars and trucks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 15:56:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LMuP7a023208; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LMuOIo023189; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:56:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:56:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:56:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7LMuETe023036 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Status: O X-Status: >Jones Beene >Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:28:25 -0700 > >Terry > > >Turns out the system is the well known Pacheco system of aluminum and sodium. > >It works - and fairly efficiently - but it requires a recycling infrastructure. > The article (http://tinyurl.com/nofd8) doesn't at all give this impression. Where did you get this info? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 16:06:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LN5tVf030105; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:05:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LN5rNB030082; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:05:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:05:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:05:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote the following to show what helpful chaps those noble, cuddly generous Yanks are:- <> I looked at the link. From page one of John's quoted website:- <> OK John, as far as trade related aid goes (widely criticised for distorting global politics and further impoverishing the poorest while propping up military dictatorships etc) the US is biggest, but you're still the meanest in $ per capita. In terms of pushing other nations around, and engendering resentment, the US is still in a class of its own - again, the US is still the biggest and the meanest. I'm not saying that any other nation, given the same power and culture and basket case mega economy would do any better, but they couldn't do much worse J.S. <> No it doesn't. This is a huge lie spoon fed to, and lapped up by, the aforementioned simple minded. How can any intelligent, educated, historically aware person countenance it? Even if you have been told this lie all your life, surely this doesn't mean that you are no longer capable of seeing through it? If you were a Tibetan activist in a Chinese prison, would you not feel just a tad ungrateful that China was building roads and railways though your country at great financial cost to them - all you would have lost would be your country, your freedom, your soul and sometimes your life. Hey, they even feed you from their open hands (but probably not enough)! Do you understand the analogy? Shall we stop this thread now? Remember it started with the news that they were looking to convert a Segway into a mobile machine gun platform. It struck me that this was beating ploughshares into swords - not a particularly Christian act from a country whose President claims he talks to God... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 16:20:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7LNK5fW007530; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:20:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7LNCZf6002814; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:12:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:12:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <060801c6c577$43e9be50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:12:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Status: O X-Status: Robin > The article (http://tinyurl.com/nofd8) doesn't at all give this > impression. Where did you get this info? Hmm... from a link in one of the messages on one of these two sites, which I can't find at the moment: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/malaysian_auto_.html http://paultan.org/archives/2006/08/15/lmg-tourer-with-hydroxene-technology/ Sorry not to be more specific... we had a power outage (old tree, not HTP production) and my url-cache was lost. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 18:28:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M0vNIu003408; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:57:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M0vLqA003356; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:57:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:57:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gKdw4Iujw9UQsdwnsCUoSY2KLSLnxUlkSWMoHMsaf125huWEBccif0IfAMHfUZrH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200682220438231 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:43:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940567eed927f2c880ede6f7e762ee6f889350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote. > Snip the final solution. > > Shall we stop this thread now? Remember it started with the news that they > were looking to convert a Segway into a mobile machine gun platform. It > struck me that this was beating ploughshares into swords - not a > particularly Christian act from a country whose President claims he talks to > God... > Gee, I wasn't aware that Dick Cheney got promoted, Nick. > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 20:03:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M3392O017894; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:03:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M337XL017869; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:03:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:03:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002f01c6c597$763a1790$57037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: SciAM Sept. Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:02:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C6C56D.75F4C340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C6C56D.75F4C340 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002C_01C6C56D.75F4C340" ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C6C56D.75F4C340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones, Mention Nuke power plants . The South Texas Nuclear Power Plant near Bay = City Texas, some 100 miles due south of me has a problem. A bunch of = spoilsports sneaked into town and begin examining medical records over = the past 20 years and learned there has been a marked increase in = illnesses associated with radiation. Not to worry because the plant owners are going to ADD two more reactors = to the plant. Seems this plant was originally a joint venture with = Houston Lighting and Power, city of Austin etc al. Brown and Root = construction( now Halliburton) had the contract for about 2 bil bucks, = trouble started immediately and finally Bechtol took over the contract = and completed the job for around 8 bil, give or take a few. HP&P started crying they were stranded with a money losing nuke plant = so the State of Texas sold bonds and gave them the money( 15 bil give or = take a few) with the public paying off the bonds (by charging higher = rates). =20 Since in Texas, it considered to be very poor sportsmanship to ever give = a sucker an even break, After triple flipping the ownership of the plant = across three different owners, each using the same brand of tears and = crying towel, the plant finally wound up being owned by Mr. Nobody ( in = other words we really aren't sure exactly who the owners are for = lianility purposes). Uhmmm! Lets see if I have this straight in my mind.... Bush was Governor = at the time and..... oh no.. there is no connection,, couldn't be. P.T. = Barnum and Mark Twain had it pegged. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C6C56D.75F4C340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Jones,
 
Mention Nuke power plants . The South Texas Nuclear Power Plant = near Bay=20 City Texas, some 100 miles due south of me has a problem. A bunch = of=20 spoilsports sneaked into town and begin examining medical records over = the past=20 20 years and learned there has been a marked increase in illnesses = associated=20 with radiation.
Not to worry because the plant owners are going to ADD two more = reactors to=20 the plant. Seems this plant was originally a joint venture with Houston = Lighting=20 and Power, city of Austin etc al. Brown and Root construction( now = Halliburton)=20 had the contract for about 2 bil bucks, trouble started immediately and = finally=20 Bechtol took over the contract and completed the job for around 8 bil, = give or=20 take a few.
 HP&P started crying they were stranded with a money = losing nuke=20 plant so the State of Texas sold bonds and gave them the money( 15 bil = give or=20 take a few) with the public paying off the bonds (by charging =  higher=20 rates).
 
Since in Texas, it considered to be very poor sportsmanship to ever = give a=20 sucker an even break, After triple flipping the ownership of the plant = across=20 three different owners, each using the same brand of tears and crying = towel, the=20 plant finally wound up being owned by Mr. Nobody ( in other words we = really=20 aren't sure exactly who the owners are for lianility purposes).
 
Uhmmm! Lets see if I have this straight in my mind.... Bush was = Governor at=20 the time and..... oh no.. there is no connection,, couldn't be.  = P.T.=20 Barnum and Mark Twain had it pegged.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C6C56D.75F4C340-- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C6C56D.75F4C340 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002a01c6c597$5ec7be00$57037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C6C56D.75F4C340-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 21:38:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M4c6DN008281; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:38:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M4c1Ut008230; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:38:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:38:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:37:57 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8f2le2tcaiehg201aqa1sl5r0t4gpuj82j 4ax.com> References: <060801c6c577$43e9be50$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <060801c6c577$43e9be50$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:37:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7M4bv17008142 Resent-Message-ID: <7e_oSB.A.iAC.poo6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:12:24 -0700: Hi, [snip] >From http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/malaysian_auto_.html I get the following quote: "The on-board hydrogen system, developed by Malaysian scientist Dr Halim Mohd Ali, reportedly produces hydrogen and oxygen from water without using electrolysis, then injects the resulting gas mixture into the fuel-air charge for the combustion engine, boosting combustion." Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 21:55:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M4sgtq017283; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:54:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M4sc7I017224; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:54:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:54:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:53:57 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote :>the news that they were looking to convert a Segway into a mobile machine gun platform. >It struck me that this was beating ploughshares into swords - not a particularly Christian act >from a country whose President claims he talks to God... That depends on how you look at it. Until the return of the king, there will be war. War requires weapons. Most people focus on the swords into plowshares and ignore the other verse which says just the opposite. War is the mother of invention. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 21:56:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M4tnJd017884; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:55:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M4tkNO017856; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:55:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:55:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:53:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818195344.01e79ec0 pop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6_wlHC.A.2WE.S5o6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through > violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own > fantasies... > > When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I deliberately > spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, > apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. > > There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal > worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to create > a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take a look > at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the world were > or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they > knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that > stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall > idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would have a > nice, stable world." The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a disgusting mix of opportunism and pragmatism. > Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of > stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and dress > and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their > way. Stability. > > You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives > continuously unstable. > > P. For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 22:12:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M5CGmQ029242; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:12:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M5CFRh029229; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:12:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:12:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 01:10:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > > War is the mother of invention. That is one nasty mother. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 22:19:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M5Indn001638; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:18:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M5IlSh001605; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:18:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:18:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ckE21eFeB1NVtF+JokcUypbb35qKbWe/BBPAFrBfuW4m0dSFhVTUPH9iv7J6UXG9yMExp3i4S2YKo3Y36SlL4Fy2uBswTY6simmDuSKTA0YCGryVsSSZL2odelAjntX+H0hl7gel5nFsjDvUzl5jSDqFbpXzBMiGYnbo6SHUaX0= ; Message-ID: <20060822051846.69860.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:18:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <8f2le2tcaiehg201aqa1sl5r0t4gpuj82j 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-639133041-1156223926=:69198" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4buO7B.A.8Y.3Op6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: During ASTM testing - our NEW Superlubricant reduced fricton by 48% Status: O X-Status: --0-639133041-1156223926=:69198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Energy Efficiency is paramount to reducing our dependency on oil, nuclear and other energy sources. The use of this Super-lubricant will increase the life of friction surfaces and provide greater useful power over the life of the system, be it an electric motor, Liquid Fuel Engine or bearing surface. Industrial testing on high speed stamping equipment begins later this week. Added to a car engine, this product will increase the useful life of all bearing surfaces treated by the lubricant, increase compression and reduce wear that translates directly into higher gas mileage, and increased performance. Tougher than Teflon without toxic gasses. Confirmation literature has been provided by the US and Russian Governments on a chemically similar product, however analysis has revealed our product is at least 20% stronger and far purer than the Russian Super-lubricant. Chris Arnold http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --0-639133041-1156223926=:69198 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Energy Efficiency is paramount to reducing our dependency on oil, nuclear and other energy sources. The use of this Super-lubricant will increase the life of friction surfaces and provide greater useful power over the life of the system, be it an electric motor, Liquid Fuel Engine or bearing surface.
 
Industrial testing on high speed stamping equipment begins later this week.
 
Added to a car engine, this product will increase the useful life of all bearing surfaces treated by the lubricant, increase compression and reduce wear that translates directly into higher gas mileage, and increased performance. Tougher than Teflon without toxic gasses. Confirmation literature has been provided by the US and Russian Governments on a chemically similar product, however analysis has revealed our product is at least 20% stronger and far purer than the Russian Super-lubricant.
 
 
Chris Arnold

Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --0-639133041-1156223926=:69198-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 23:56:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M6uAln021882; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:56:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M6u9ke021861; Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:56:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:56:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Another Overseas Waterfuel Claim Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:55:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4iale25na3h02e72ub2gn7nrjk1lfmdad1 4ax.com> References: <060801c6c577$43e9be50$6401a8c0@NuDell> <8f2le2tcaiehg201aqa1sl5r0t4gpuj82j@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <8f2le2tcaiehg201aqa1sl5r0t4gpuj82j 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:55:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7M6tshc021773 Resent-Message-ID: <2259WC.A.hVF.Jqq6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The home page of the technology (not very enlightening). http://hft-h2o.com/ Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 02:36:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7M9a7Ak004406; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:36:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7M9a5Fh004380; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:36:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=oVw3boX3OmM9I1LwI2zQMxhhJmO7NplcCKLf6nCJzcd+QM44V6VEBk27A+wdVVUJ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006822293548473 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:35:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bbc460f93bbc2ab867ab5aafb1c6b74e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.179 Resent-Message-ID: <1z8liD.A.PEB.EAt6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible. 175 Page PDF. "The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects" 29th April 1987 Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST) http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Choices: O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M (M is an active metal site) 2 H2O + 2 O :M <----> 4 OH (Hydroxene?) Etc. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible.
 
175  Page PDF.
 
"The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects"
 
29th April 1987
 
Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST)
 
 
 
 
Choices:
 
O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M  (M is an active metal site)
 
2 H2O +  2  O :M  <---->  4 OH  (Hydroxene?)
 
Etc.
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 03:05:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MA5SjY019010; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:05:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MA5Q9P018975; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:05:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:05:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:05:32 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Walter Meyerhof, professor emeritus of physics, dies at 84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:05:54 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <_m1OBB.A.aoE.lbt6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Walter Meyerhof, professor emeritus of physics, dies at 84 > http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2006/june7/meyerhof-060706.html > > Memorial services were held on Sunday, July 16, 2006 at 3:00 PM > in the Main Dining Room of the Stanford Faculty Club. > > "science advances ... " - Max Planck ----- Quote from the obit: In the late 1980s, Meyerhof criticized scientists at the University of Utah and Britain's University of Southampton who claimed to have achieved "cold fusion" —- which if true could have solved the world's energy problems. When a respected engineering professor at Stanford, Robert Huggins, claimed to have confirmed one part of the cold fusion experiment, Meyerhof and others tried to reproduce it and failed. "Tens of millions of dollars are at stake, dear sister and brother, because one scientist put a thermometer in one place instead of the other," Meyerhof told an Associated Press reporter. ----- What do you think would have happened if Fleischmann and/or Pons, or anyone who successfully replicated cold fusion, had gone to Meyerhof to help him? Even after the above debacle. Would the history of cold fusion be any different? Is it too late today to convert a prominent skeptic? -Walter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 03:13:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MACx2H023107; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:13:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MACvON023084; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:12:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:12:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aIA4xy0sclQls0tso6gudGWMy4y+lONbB/WZvtvQM7guZqX8oyAFw75+SOCOKNom; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068222101238206 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:12:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b8b63fa14d1c3c50a8d354c425402db9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.53 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Amazon dot Com has related books ranging from $64.95 to $408.00 if you want to tie "Hydroxene" production to the Joe Cell "Pretreatment" Surface Physics. :-) Fred http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/002-7732668-7304863?search-alias=stripbooks&keywords=Thiel%20and%20Madey&rank=+newrelevancerank ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 8/22/2006 3:35:38 AM Subject: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible. 175 Page PDF. "The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects" 29th April 1987 Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST) http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Choices: O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M (M is an active metal site) 2 H2O + 2 O :M <----> 4 OH (Hydroxene?) Etc. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Amazon dot Com has related books ranging from
$64.95 to $408.00 if you want to tie "Hydroxene" production to the
Joe Cell "Pretreatment" Surface Physics.  :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/22/2006 3:35:38 AM
Subject: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene"

 Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible.
 
175  Page PDF.
 
"The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects"
 
29th April 1987
 
Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST)
 
 
 
 
Choices:
 
O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M  (M is an active metal site)
 
2 H2O +  2  O :M  <---->  4 OH  (Hydroxene?)
 
Etc.
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 03:47:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MAldMP009608; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:47:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MAlbic009580; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:47:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XvQO+ZUqkl4DJtAsdGUa3jwwvD9JflzHhXYXD18Geuf2pFyIDHan0R4KDDNoBSe5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068222104721662 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:47:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a005514f3127466dea92af634ab6393b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.53 Resent-Message-ID: <531noC.A.gVC.IDu6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A rather esoteric 2 page pdf on H20-Silver- Oxygen http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_JVSTa_1987_B.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 8/22/2006 3:35:38 AM Subject: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible. 175 Page PDF. "The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects" 29th April 1987 Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST) http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Choices: O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M (M is an active metal site) 2 H2O + 2 O :M <----> 4 OH (Hydroxene?) Etc. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/22/2006 3:35:38 AM
Subject: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene"

 Surface Dissociation of Water on Nanoparticles is very possible.
 
175  Page PDF.
 
"The Interaction of Water With Solid Surfaces Fundamental Aspects"
 
29th April 1987
 
Patricia A. Thiel (Ames laboratory) & Theodore E. Madey (NBS/ NIST)
 
 
 
 
Choices:
 
O2 + 2 M <----> 2 O:M  (M is an active metal site)
 
2 H2O +  2  O :M  <---->  4 OH  (Hydroxene?)
 
Etc.
 
Fred
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 05:11:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MCAAXB020155; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:10:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MBhrC5004922; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:43:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O3w4uezbMc/mUIFAR+r9GFUuCyIkGW6UoCBZ3rp0Gy5dV3hg2mmI30apZhkVgCKV2o0sbI7/0nFXo5rmdnyRfnLmLZ1kgsS6U3TqaIIpLZUsfB5q6nJCpaetRSSPsVum2JScQ9p2Do81XQh/kB3FzEFUhE3JVJphZRCOtlVKmt8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:41:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/22/06, thomas malloy wrote > Until the return of the king, there > will be war. I thought OBL *was* the Mahdi (Maud'Dib). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 05:30:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MCUSJN003375; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:30:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MCUPMw003333; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:30:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:30:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=X3hSFhboT6BJwr23S/sv8hJw1v1cgqL97zHe7PE4liMa/gaFYVP8Uqq0TEWZ+2kf; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068222122952444 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:29:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94080f3028ab8cbc20cad63702ae451f65f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.231 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII My experience with AgO or MnO and MnO2 as a HO-OH detection film or destroyer (with help from Sandia Labs ca 1990) (MnO2 will plate on a metal anode using KMnO4) , suggests that O2 has to be involved with the "Hydroxene" Water Fuel. Many alloys contain Manganese (Manganin for example) that readily form MnO and MnO2 on the surface: 2 MnO + O2 ----> 2 MnO2 H2O (on a metal surface) H-OH + M <----> H + OH:M H + MnO2 -----> OH + MnO Lots of Choices to try. :-) http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/alloys.htm Overall: 2 H2O + O2 + M <----> 4 OH + M (where M is a metal or Metal Oxide) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

My experience with AgO or MnO and MnO2 as a HO-OH detection film
or destroyer (with help from Sandia Labs ca 1990)
(MnO2 will plate on a metal anode using KMnO4) , suggests that O2
has to be involved with the "Hydroxene" Water Fuel.
Many alloys contain Manganese (Manganin for example)
that readily form MnO and MnO2 on the surface:
 
2 MnO + O2 ----> 2 MnO2
 
H2O (on a metal surface) H-OH + M <----> H + OH:M
 
H + MnO2 ----->   OH + MnO
 
Lots of Choices to try.   :-)
 
 
Overall: 2 H2O + O2 + M <----> 4 OH + M (where M is a metal or Metal Oxide)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 05:41:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MCfHgG011784; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:41:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MCfFHH011751; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:41:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:41:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c6c5e8$3c5696b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818195344.01e79ec0 pop> <6.1.1.1.1.20060822064003.01eab350@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:40:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Winestone" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a > disgusting mix > of opportunism and pragmatism." > > Nope - it's called "life". ========================== Exactly so. There is an excellent book, "At Home in the Universe", which persuasively argues that Life, as a dynamic biochemical process, exists in the non-equilibrium zone between statsis and chaos. If you want order, try prison. A gun-toting Segway has an ancestor celebrated by a statue in Ukraine, three rearward-pointing guns mounted on a horse-drawn carriage, which was a decisive weapon in some war or other. Living orgasnisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe. No static, "safe" solution exists, even for a nation, for the external world continually changes and that which does not change with it will die. Mike Carrell > > P. > > > > > > > At 11:53 PM 8/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>Philip Winestone wrote: >> >> > Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through >> > violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your >> > own >> > fantasies... >> > >> > When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I >> > deliberately >> > spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, >> > apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. >> > >> > There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal >> > worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to >> > create >> > a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take a >> > look >> > at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the world >> > were >> > or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they >> > knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact >> > that >> > stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the >> > overall >> > idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would >> > have a >> > nice, stable world." >> >> >> >>The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the >>goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a disgusting >>mix >>of opportunism and pragmatism. >> >> > Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type >> > of >> > stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and >> > dress >> > and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their >> > way. Stability. >> > >> > You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives >> > continuously unstable. >> > >> > P. >> >> >>For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military >>objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs >>consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. >> >> >> >>Harry > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 06:59:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MDweLJ030362; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:58:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MDwaJ4030320; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:58:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=TWu+Ybdgmad4zk6MDQpz5H8tU4GXO894HBKF+sHTdny1sBSvJA/dQTbLYcnSCMux; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068222135813644 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:58:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e7245c3fc8f72cca64feaf2857060402350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.168 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Sciencedirect Surface Physics Articles Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVY-44TVHCS-1&_user=10&_handle=V-WA-A-W-W-MsSAYZW-UUA-U-AACYDCYDUB-AACZBBECUB-DCZCVZBB-W-U&_fmt=summary&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%235547%232002%23999539998%23311711!&_cdi=5547&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b09ec77a4f7248858cb1342fcb7b0417 PNL ABSTRACT Received 15 August 2001. Available online 3 January 2002. : "The interaction of water with solid surfaces: fundamental aspects revisited " "Water is perhaps the most important and most pervasive chemical on our planet. The influence of water permeates virtually all areas of biochemical, chemical and physical importance, and is especially evident in phenomena occurring at the interfaces of solid surfaces. Since 1987, when Thiel and Madey (TM) published their review titled ‘The interaction of water with solid surfaces: fundamental aspects’ in Surface Science Reports, there has been considerable progress made in further understanding the fundamental interactions of water with solid surfaces. In the decade and a half, the increased capability of surface scientists to probe at the molecular-level has resulted in more detailed information of the properties of water on progressively more complicated materials and under more stringent conditions. This progress in understanding the properties of water on solid surfaces is evident both in areas for which surface science methodology has traditionally been strong (catalysis and electronic materials) and also in new areas not traditionally studied by surface scientists such as electrochemistry, photoconversion, mineralogy, adhesion, sensors, atmospheric chemistry and tribology. Researchers in all these fields grapple with very basic questions regarding the interactions of water with solid surfaces such as how is water adsorbed, what are the chemical and electrostatic forces that constitute the adsorbed layer, how is water thermally or non-thermally activated and how do coadsorbates influence these properties of water. The attention paid to these and other fundamental questions in the past decade and a half has been immense. In this review, experimental studies published since the TM review are assimilated with those covered by TM to provide a current picture of the fundamental interactions of water with solid surfaces." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
 
PNL ABSTRACT Received 15 August 2001.  Available online 3 January 2002. :
 
"The interaction of water with solid surfaces: fundamental aspects revisited "
 
"Water is perhaps the most important and most pervasive chemical on our planet. The influence of water permeates virtually all areas of biochemical, chemical and physical importance, and is especially evident in phenomena occurring at the interfaces of solid surfaces. Since 1987, when Thiel and Madey (TM) published their review titled ‘The interaction of water with solid surfaces: fundamental aspects’ in Surface Science Reports, there has been considerable progress made in further understanding the fundamental interactions of water with solid surfaces. In the decade and a half, the increased capability of surface scientists to probe at the molecular-level has resulted in more detailed information of the properties of water on progressively more complicated materials and under more stringent conditions. This progress in understanding the properties of water on solid surfaces is evident both in areas for which surface science methodology has traditionally been strong (catalysis and electronic materials) and also in new areas not traditionally studied by surface scientists such as electrochemistry, photoconversion, mineralogy, adhesion, sensors, atmospheric chemistry and tribology. Researchers in all these fields grapple with very basic questions regarding the interactions of water with solid surfaces such as how is water adsorbed, what are the chemical and electrostatic forces that constitute the adsorbed layer, how is water thermally or non-thermally activated and how do coadsorbates influence these properties of water. The attention paid to these and other fundamental questions in the past decade and a half has been immense. In this review, experimental studies published since the TM review are assimilated with those covered by TM to provide a current picture of the fundamental interactions of water with solid surfaces."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 09:02:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MFcG90002669; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:38:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MFcEsf002642; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:38:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:38:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060822110146.0412ae80 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:59 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "vortex" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: SciAm Sept. In-Reply-To: <05fa01c6c574$fa0704c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <05fa01c6c574$fa0704c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-ZLv3B.A.Op.mTy6EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I forgot to mention that this issue of SciAm has the usual garbage attack against cold fusion, plus with regard to Taleyarkhan, they are using the fact that the investigation was closed as a way of raising suspicion. See page 107. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 09:19:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MGIZxc001504; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:18:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MGIXVS001474; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:18:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:18:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060822115123.0414aa90 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:18:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> References: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <44EA8DE5.9070004 usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >That depends on how you look at it. Until the return of the king, >there will be war. Apparently you believe that war is inevitable. Do you suppose it is inevitable that the people from Georgia will again go to war against the people in Pennsylvania, or that Germany, France and the England will go on massacring one another as they did for hundreds of years? I think these nightmares will not recur. War has been eliminated nearly everywhere in the world where it was once common, and I cannot imagine a single reason why it cannot and will not eventually be eliminated everywhere. Many people believe that cruel exploitation is inevitable, and they used to think that slavery and high infant mortality was an inescapable part of life. I read a paper on automobile safety written in the 1950s that said, "seatbelts could save tens of thousands of lives per year but of course the American public would never accept them." It was considered out of the question. No one stopped to question this or wonder why. It turned out there was no reason, and most people are happy to wear seat belts. I find such beliefs utterly repugnant, corrosive, and contrary to all that we know about history, progress, and the human spirit. Few outcomes seem more likely at this stage in history than that cold fusion will be rejected and forgotten, so I am probably wasting my life. I do this because I am convinced that people have free will, and that NOTHING we do, or say, or think is inevitable. Individuals are often incorrigible, but nations can always be helped. We can ALWAYS change our minds, turn back from the brink, change our way of living, learn, improve, and refrain from evil. If your religion teaches otherwise I suggest you toss it into the garbage. Atheism or the most bubble-headed superstitious cult would be healthier than believing we cannot transcend savagery. As John F. Kennedy put it: "First examine our attitude towards peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it is unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable, that mankind is doomed, that we are gripped by forces we cannot control. We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade; therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable, and we believe they can do it again. I am not referring to the absolute, infinite concept of universal peace and good will of which some fantasies and fanatics dream. . . . Let us focus instead on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions -- on a series of concrete actions and effective agreements which are in the interest of all concerned. . . ." http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkamericanuniversityaddress.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 10:52:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MHq24q010914; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:52:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MHpwMR010844; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:51:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:51:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:49:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822064003.01eab350 pop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a > disgusting mix > of opportunism and pragmatism." > > Nope - it's called "life". > > P. No, it is called "Your life". Harry > > > > > At 11:53 PM 8/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through >>> violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own >>> fantasies... >>> >>> When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I deliberately >>> spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, >>> apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. >>> >>> There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal >>> worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to create >>> a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take a look >>> at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the world were >>> or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they >>> knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that >>> stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall >>> idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would have a >>> nice, stable world." >> >> >> >> The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the >> goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a disgusting mix >> of opportunism and pragmatism. >> >>> Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of >>> stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and dress >>> and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their >>> way. Stability. >>> >>> You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives >>> continuously unstable. >>> >>> P. >> >> >> For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military >> objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs >> consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. >> >> >> >> Harry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 11:00:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MI05BH017714; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MHna4K009196; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:46:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The king has returned. Book/Movie III of the Lord of the Rings. Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/22/06, thomas malloy wrote > >> Until the return of the king, there >> will be war. > > I thought OBL *was* the Mahdi (Maud'Dib). > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 11:17:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MIHJQN029785; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:17:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MIHIvh029760; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:17:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:17:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:15:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <001e01c6c5e8$3c5696b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Winestone" > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > >> "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a >> disgusting mix >> of opportunism and pragmatism." >> >> Nope - it's called "life". > ========================== > Exactly so. There is an excellent book, "At Home in the Universe", which > persuasively argues that Life, as a dynamic biochemical process, exists in > the non-equilibrium zone between statsis and chaos. If you want order, try > prison. A gun-toting Segway has an ancestor celebrated by a statue in > Ukraine, three rearward-pointing guns mounted on a horse-drawn carriage, > which was a decisive weapon in some war or other. > > Living orgasnisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe. No > static, "safe" solution exists, even for a nation, for the external world > continually changes and that which does not change with it will die. > > Mike Carrell Wow, Does the author of that book actually use language like "Living organisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe"? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 11:50:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MIo0Eh023745; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:50:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MInxaI023726; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:49:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:49:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:47:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <001e01c6c5e8$3c5696b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: The "game of life" Status: O X-Status: These days you are suppose to see yourself as a contestant in the "game of life". Not so long ago (but perhaps before our elders were born), people used to regard life's trials and tribulations as a personal test rather than as some sort of perverted contest. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 13:22:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MKLe44026061; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:21:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MKLZIq025985; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:21:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:21:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003c01c6c628$8b34c280$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:09:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <9PEDwB.A.0VG.Nd26EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Philip Winestone" >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products >> >> >>> "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a >>> disgusting mix >>> of opportunism and pragmatism." >>> >>> Nope - it's called "life". >> ========================== >> Exactly so. There is an excellent book, "At Home in the Universe", which >> persuasively argues that Life, as a dynamic biochemical process, exists >> in >> the non-equilibrium zone between statsis and chaos. If you want order, >> try >> prison. A gun-toting Segway has an ancestor celebrated by a statue in >> Ukraine, three rearward-pointing guns mounted on a horse-drawn carriage, >> which was a decisive weapon in some war or other. >> >> Living orgasnisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe. >> No >> static, "safe" solution exists, even for a nation, for the external world >> continually changes and that which does not change with it will die. >> >> Mike Carrell > > Wow, Does the author of that book actually use language like "Living > organisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe"? ====================================== No, that phrase is my own, but it conveys the thrust of the argument in the book. To me it is obvious that organisms from bacteria to men cannot each get all they want all the time, so there is a 'contest' of sorts. Nor does the universe we all live in remain constant but evolves, or unfolds, what ever word you want. Amid this 'contest' there is also mutual dependency and cooperation, for no member of the ecosystem can exist apart from it, so altruism wins in the end. It is dynamic, and any attempt to freeze it into some kind of idealized utopia will result in death of some sort. A surfer riding a tube, a bubble of froth on a breaking wave are apt metaphors for Life in the Universe. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 03:42:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MAgNUN006433; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:42:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MAgL9t006393; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:42:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 03:42:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=jp7FrCkfaxKpWLEOvOG5Sk8GJvr5wKqGZ5GZSfsCg29GN0MOeXU+w1RRFzFJbuGMmNDaFpFBSVlnOKekCo0eimkf2bYOPIuA/Ef1oQUoyyWr8Zy66LZnAk+B316KhytEDattT0lEihgj41/l/o6np51CV2gbnU0gp55poM7TO64= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822064003.01eab350 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:40:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060818195344.01e79ec0 pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a disgusting mix of opportunism and pragmatism." Nope - it's called "life". P. At 11:53 PM 8/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through > > violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own > > fantasies... > > > > When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I deliberately > > spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, > > apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. > > > > There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal > > worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to create > > a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take a look > > at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the world were > > or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they > > knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that > > stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall > > idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would have a > > nice, stable world." > > > >The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the >goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a disgusting mix >of opportunism and pragmatism. > > > Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of > > stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and dress > > and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their > > way. Stability. > > > > You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives > > continuously unstable. > > > > P. > > >For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military >objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs >consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. > > > >Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 14:48:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MLmD0J019866; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:48:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MLmBtD019852; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:48:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:48:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: The "game of life" Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:48:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7mume2dhso5v1ku26p067rpnk658pq4fod 4ax.com> References: <001e01c6c5e8$3c5696b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:48:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7MLm84h019806 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:47:36 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > >These days you are suppose to see yourself as a contestant in the "game of >life". > >Not so long ago (but perhaps before our elders were born), people used to >regard life's trials and tribulations as a personal test rather than as some >sort of perverted contest. > >Harry Competition for resources. As the population density increases in any given region people subconsciously see it more as an interpersonal competition than as a battle with nature. CF would alter this situation significantly. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 14:51:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MLp6Ko021778; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:51:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MLp4TC021753; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:51:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <009101c6c2e3$18c842a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:51:00 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7MLp2r5021686 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:10:25 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 8/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: >> True ... but just as all the clocks in a clock store line-up in >> phase, on their own (like magic ?) one would expect microtrons, >> especially if wired in parallel, to do the same, no? > >Not really. The resonant frequency of the microwave cavity will vary >with the mechanical variations in the device. The frequencies have to >be exact to be phase synchronous. Then use the same source and split the beam in two (or pass the same signal through two separate amplifiers). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 15:01:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MM131Q028354; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:01:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MM102W028310; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:01:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:01:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:00:53 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: The "game of life" Message-ID: <20060822220053.GA31189 linux> References: <001e01c6c5e8$3c5696b0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 02:47:36PM -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > >These days you are supposed to see yourself as a contestant >in the "game of life". I've got a glider gun and I'm not afraid to use it! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 16:25:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MNPHl4010308; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:25:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MNPEx5010283; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:25:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:25:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=TROTBImJrTEmJ5+R3b5gLOHyrlfoysM+Mh4fdQrJhjKkFFSg9PQICLPDglMeAIiDnX/7WfRIp/UnfcDigVdXEH/kv82OHYOoSYtTF3vmacg28l3eWdb2C35S/VbrMj/Zjr77vsLLX8ORLwYKm6tNVVz+eowOoAjb/s01cLrnobo= ; Message-ID: <00ca01c6c642$36a56cf0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220068222122952444 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:25:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C6C607.896D9A10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C6C607.896D9A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://courses.cm.utexas.edu/jrobertus/ch339k/overheads-3/ch19_Mn-wat-spl= it.jpg "The Manganese water splitter" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 My experience with AgO or MnO and MnO2 as a HO-OH detection film=20 or destroyer (with help from Sandia Labs ca 1990) (MnO2 will plate on a metal anode using KMnO4) , suggests that O2 has to be involved with the "Hydroxene" Water Fuel. Many alloys contain Manganese (Manganin for example) that readily form MnO and MnO2 on the surface: 2 MnO + O2 ----> 2 MnO2 H2O (on a metal surface) H-OH + M <----> H + OH:M H + MnO2 -----> OH + MnO Lots of Choices to try. :-) http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/alloys.htm Overall: 2 H2O + O2 + M <----> 4 OH + M (where M is a metal or Metal = Oxide) Fred ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C6C607.896D9A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://courses.cm.utexas.edu/jrobertus/ch339k/overheads-3= /ch19_Mn-wat-split.jpg
 
"The Manganese water splitter"
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
 

My experience with AgO or MnO and MnO2 as a HO-OH detection film =
or destroyer (with help from Sandia Labs ca 1990)
(MnO2 will plate on a metal anode using KMnO4) , suggests that = O2
has to be involved with the "Hydroxene" Water Fuel.
Many alloys contain Manganese (Manganin for example)
that readily form MnO and MnO2 on the surface:
 
2 MnO + O2 ----> 2 MnO2
 
H2O (on a metal surface) H-OH + M <----> H + OH:M
 
H + MnO2 ----->   OH + MnO
 
Lots of Choices to try.   :-)
 
http://www.csudh= .edu/oliver/chemdata/alloys.htm
 
Overall: 2 H2O + O2 + M <----> 4 OH + M (where M is a metal = or=20 Metal Oxide)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C6C607.896D9A10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 16:31:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7MNVXNu013741; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:31:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7MNVTee013705; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:31:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:31:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c6c643$116862c0$34027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <002001c6c1f9$d3692a60$0100007f xptower> <005801c6c2db$44c7d0d0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <009101c6c2e3$18c842a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetron application to water vortex Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:31:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>On 8/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: >>> True ... but just as all the clocks in a clock store line-up in >>> phase, on their own (like magic ?) one would expect microtrons, >>> especially if wired in parallel, to do the same, no? Terry wrote, >>Not really. The resonant frequency of the microwave cavity will vary >>with the mechanical variations in the device. The frequencies have to >>be exact to be phase synchronous. Robin wrote, > > Then use the same source and split the beam in two (or pass the > same signal through two separate amplifiers). Howdy Robin , Thanks for the idea. We keep plugging away at the task and ideas are always welcome. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 17:22:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N0LwoU011857; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:21:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N0Lua0011823; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:21:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:21:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IxnfZQ8U/Wl8nwbA0m+Uj8LqRroo+/GITWUa+2njjqBNJU2U41HQKsvlakz7Pt8TV+iGC4FCyJWKhAs1Wh9oNFkbfhG9FC2DGSdSwfTLD3kuMvsQn0uRkxwRwxrfPd5FC5WLsNWHCDIiNu5fb1XF/PRQNwvvVfm4PwlSc/OAg2I= ; Message-ID: <20060823002155.21539.qmail web33311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: electrostatic cooling To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <44E94A93.4020203 usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1471484744-1156292515=:21240" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1471484744-1156292515=:21240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom, I am not the only one that has tapped the field with Plasma - there was Chernetski from Russia, Dr. Paul Brown said he did it, there is Dr. Kiril Chukanov creating large Ball lightning. I am creating microburst Plasmoids however I have discovered several completely different methods to generate the Radiant energy effects and I have more to offer than past discoverers - such as my new discovery of a Superlubricant that reduced friction by 48% during ASTM testing. More information will be posted on this as new results are available. What does it mean - better gas mileage, longer engine life, reduced heat from friction and increased EFFICIENCY in thousands of applications. In industrial applications, friction parts will last many times longer saving time, repair costs and use less energy over the life of the equipment. http://members.aol.com/hypercom59 wrote: Christopher Arnold wrote: > Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control. Some paranormal events are in their interest, the type that they control > Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed. The ruling elite goes along with some paranormal, and some they surpress, having photographic evidence of snakes, it would seem conflicts with their agenda, this is, IMHO, personal. > It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more > comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of > intelligent life in the universe. That's the excuse that's some think tank came up with in the '50's > Meanwhile, other intelligent life has learned to make as little > contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet > Earth. My explanation involves evil fallen angles and their human cohorts. > > As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an > inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side > effects. If you have cohered the ZPE, AFAIK, you are the only person who has done it. I'm wondering about the nature of the plasma pulses, I have no clue what you are talking about. Is the plasma organized? I'm thinking about a torroidial plasma vortex > It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense > plasma pulses. I wonder, are electrostatic potentials are related to plasma? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. --0-1471484744-1156292515=:21240 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Tom,
 
I am not the only one that has tapped the field with Plasma - there was Chernetski from Russia, Dr. Paul Brown said he did it, there is Dr. Kiril Chukanov creating large Ball lightning. I am creating microburst Plasmoids however I have discovered several completely different methods to generate the Radiant energy effects and I have more to offer than past discoverers - such as my new discovery of a Superlubricant that reduced friction by 48% during ASTM testing. More information will be posted on this as new results are available. What does it mean - better gas mileage, longer engine life, reduced heat from friction and increased EFFICIENCY in thousands of applications. In industrial applications, friction parts will last many times longer saving time, repair costs and use less energy over the life of the equipment.
 
 
<If you have cohered the ZPE, AFAIK, you are the only person who has done it. I'm wondering about the nature of the plasma pulses, I have no clue what you are talking about. Is the plasma organized? I'm thinking about a torroidial plasma vortex

thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
Christopher Arnold wrote:

> Anything paranormal is not in the best interests of those in control.

Some paranormal events are in their interest, the type that they control

> Evidence of alien beings would cause thought, and that cannot be allowed.


The ruling elite goes along with some paranormal, and some they
surpress, having photographic evidence of snakes, it would seem
conflicts with their agenda, this is, IMHO, personal.

> It is not as if evidence is lacking, however many simply feel more
> comfortable in believing that the human race is all that exists of
> intelligent life in the universe.


That's the excuse that's some think tank came up with in the '50's

> Meanwhile, other intelligent life has learned to make as little
> contact as possible with the wonderful, peace loving people of Planet
> Earth.


My explanation involves evil fallen angles and their human cohorts.

>
> As for the cooling, I believe it is the dense plasma pulses tapping an
> inter dimensional energy (I believe it is ZPE), with multiple side
> effects.


If you have cohered the ZPE, AFAIK, you are the only person who has done
it. I'm wondering about the nature of the plasma pulses, I have no clue
what you are talking about. Is the plasma organized? I'm thinking about
a torroidial plasma vortex

> It is not a simple electrostatic field, but highly charged dense
> plasma pulses.


I wonder, are electrostatic potentials are related to plasma?



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. --0-1471484744-1156292515=:21240-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 18:59:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N1wopi031733; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:58:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N1wnmk031714; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:58:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:58:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F4D7 caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Irish company challenges scientists to test 'free energy' t echnology Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:56:21 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6C657.53CCED52" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6C657.53CCED52 Content-Type: text/plain Not sure if this has been covered on this list yet, been away a while and got 2 weeks of email to go through yet! Any comments Vorts? http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060818/bs_afp/irelandscienceenergy I love the phrase in this article "all great truths begin as blasphemies". Kind of reminds me of some of the threads on this list hey? John Rudiger TOTALINE Spare Parts Perth WA Ph:- 08 9232 7150 Fax:- 08 9232 7155 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6C657.53CCED52 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Vo]: Irish company challenges scientists to test 'free energy' = technology

Not sure if this has been covered on = this list yet, been away a while and got 2 weeks of email to go through = yet!

Any comments Vorts?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060818/bs_afp/irelandscienc= eenergy

I love the phrase in this = article "all great truths begin as = blasphemies".

Kind of reminds me of some of the = threads on this list hey?


John Rudiger
TOTALINE Spare Parts
Perth   WA

Ph:-    08 9232 7150
Fax:-  08 9232 7155

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6C657.53CCED52-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 20:05:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N34tJQ004595; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:04:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N34sNX004577; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:04:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:04:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44EBC59F.6080903 usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:03:59 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com References: <002f01c6c597$763a1790$57037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <002f01c6c597$763a1790$57037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: the nuke plant in Texas Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: Since in Texas, it considered to be very poor sportsmanship to ever give a sucker an even break, After triple flipping the ownership of the plant across three different owners, each using the same brand of tears and crying towel, the plant finally wound up being owned by Mr. Nobody ( in other words we really aren't sure exactly who the owners are for lianility purposes). NRG ownes the plant. Not sure how you spell it. My nephew works for it, which is how I heard about it. The two additional reactors are of a Japanese design, which has an inherently limited upper temperature. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 20:50:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N3o8Cq026900; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:50:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N3o5hd026866; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:50:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:50:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060822202252.0321f8d8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:23:05 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Irish company challenges scientists to test 'free energy' t echnology In-Reply-To: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F4D7 caraupermb02.carrie r-apac.com.au> References: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F4D7 caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_212603640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_212603640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'll check it out. At 06:56 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote: >Not sure if this has been covered on this list yet, been away a while and >got 2 weeks of email to go through yet! > >Any comments Vorts? > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060818/bs_afp/irelandscienceenergy > > >I love the phrase in this article "all great truths begin as blasphemies". > >Kind of reminds me of some of the threads on this list hey? > >John Rudiger >TOTALINE Spare Parts >Perth WA > >Ph:- 08 9232 7150 >Fax:- 08 9232 7155 --=====================_212603640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I'll check it out.


At 06:56 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote:

Not sure if this has been covered on this list yet, been away a while and got 2 weeks of email to go through yet!

Any comments Vorts?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060818/bs_afp/irelandscienceenergy

I love the phrase in this article "all great truths begin as blasphemies".

Kind of reminds me of some of the threads on this list hey?

John Rudiger
TOTALINE Spare Parts
Perth   WA

Ph:-    08 9232 7150
Fax:-  08 9232 7155
--=====================_212603640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 21:15:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N4F2d1006155; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:15:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N4F0k4006113; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:15:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:15:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:13:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: The "game of life" In-reply-to: <20060822220053.GA31189 linux> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark S Bilk wrote: > On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 02:47:36PM -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> These days you are supposed to see yourself as a contestant >> in the "game of life". > > I've got a glider gun and I'm not afraid to use it! > Put 'er down or the cabbage gets it. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 22:28:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N5SBGv011762; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:28:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N5SArv011740; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:28:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:28:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44EBE728.8050407 usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:27:04 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products References: <007e01c6c576$4f20a4b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <44EA8DE5.9070004@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20060822115123.0414aa90@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060822115123.0414aa90 mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell and later Terry, wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >> That depends on how you look at it. Until the return of the king, >> there will be war. > > > Apparently you believe that war is inevitable. It's begun. > Do you suppose it is inevitable that the people from Georgia will > again go to war against the people in Pennsylvania, or that They did, read history > I cannot imagine a single reason why it cannot and will not eventually > be eliminated everywhere. The Messiah will bring peace. > > Many people believe that cruel exploitation is inevitable, and they > used to think that slavery I just read Kevin Phillips' Cousin's Wars. The American Civil War grew out of the Yankee's desire to abolish slavery. It makes me proud to be descended from them. > I find such beliefs utterly repugnant, corrosive, and contrary to all > that we know about history, progress, and the human spirit. Few It would seem that you have learned nothing from the study of history. > No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and > spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable, and There are some people who believe that John Kennedy was assassinated by a petroleum engineer who had worked for Zapatta Petroleum. > Let us focus instead on a more practical, more attainable peace, In those days they shall cry, peace, peace, and there is no peace. If you want to know why go to www.prophetofdoom.net . What we have is two groups of people who both want to control the World, this was prophecized by Shem son of Noah, Midrash, Genesis 25 I'm reading American Dynasty by Kevin Phillips. Having read treatments of the same subject by authors whom the Center Right calls "the nutter fringe," I find his book rather centerist. Kevin's latest book Aristrocracy blames President Bush, Christian Fundamentalists and defecit spending. My law professor friend can't stand Kevin, I can't wait to bring up his name. Terry wrote Until the return of the king, there >> will be war. > > I thought OBL *was* the Mahdi (Maud'Dib). There are some Moslems who believe that he is. President Achmadidajad is not one of them, he's Shiite and OBL is Suni. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 22:49:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N5nNCd025038; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:49:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N5nLO4025017; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:49:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:49:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 01:47:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-reply-to: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822213821.01eb0028 pop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No, I'm unstable. Harry Philip Winestone wrote: > You know nothing whatsoever about myself or "my life", so you're making > some pretty drastic assumptions. In short, you're out of line. > > P. > > > > At 01:49 PM 8/22/2006 -0500, you wrote: >> Philip Winestone wrote: >> >>> "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a >>> disgusting mix >>> of opportunism and pragmatism." >>> >>> Nope - it's called "life". >>> >>> P. >> >> No, it is called "Your life". >> >> Harry >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 11:53 PM 8/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: >>>> Philip Winestone wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through >>>>> violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own >>>>> fantasies... >>>>> >>>>> When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I >> deliberately >>>>> spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, >>>>> apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. >>>>> >>>>> There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal >>>>> worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to >> create >>>>> a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take >> a look >>>>> at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the >> world were >>>>> or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they >>>>> knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that >>>>> stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall >>>>> idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would >> have a >>>>> nice, stable world." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the >>>> goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a >> disgusting mix >>>> of opportunism and pragmatism. >>>> >>>>> Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of >>>>> stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and >> dress >>>>> and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their >>>>> way. Stability. >>>>> >>>>> You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives >>>>> continuously unstable. >>>>> >>>>> P. >>>> >>>> >>>> For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military >>>> objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs >>>> consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Harry >>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 01:00:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N7xtfg019857; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:59:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N7xrvd019845; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:59:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:59:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: New Segway Products Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:59:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <44EBE728.8050407 usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two words folks.... IMPULSE CONTROL Pretend the 'SEND' button doesn't work for this thread anymore, eh? -j From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 19:42:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N2dd0R023867; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:39:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N2dZU1023810; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:39:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:39:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=yNTF2zHpNVIy9iQrf59E+yRWt2UmSTq6qA3xej0Lj2u56oSmlW51t0dtd/V6PXfpqtbLc9jEiG9xiVNlNgO0b5f0d/ch0PrPrkDAB3YABlvdar+6q7jr0tkcz0vXny+x1nfQ8i9c0bIWQeJqQ40jUUEvWPvpBHED7nj4NjSfao0= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822214057.01f64cb8 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:45:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: <003c01c6c628$8b34c280$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <003c01c6c628$8b34c280$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Very nicely put Mike. If the "stability people" were to take a breath and really look "out there," they'd see that everything in this world is killing and eating everything else at all levels. This is not conjecture; even if you eat a cabbage you have to kill it. Make you uncomfortable? You bet... But these people only have to open their eyes to see that this world is truly a slaughterhouse. Even the bacteria inside us are having a field day and will continue to do this until we dissolve. P. At 04:09 PM 8/22/2006 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" >Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products > > >>Mike Carrell wrote: >> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Philip Winestone" >>> >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products >>> >>> >>>>"If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a >>>>disgusting mix >>>>of opportunism and pragmatism." >>>> >>>>Nope - it's called "life". >>>========================== >>>Exactly so. There is an excellent book, "At Home in the Universe", which >>>persuasively argues that Life, as a dynamic biochemical process, exists in >>>the non-equilibrium zone between statsis and chaos. If you want order, try >>>prison. A gun-toting Segway has an ancestor celebrated by a statue in >>>Ukraine, three rearward-pointing guns mounted on a horse-drawn carriage, >>>which was a decisive weapon in some war or other. >>> >>>Living orgasnisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe. No >>>static, "safe" solution exists, even for a nation, for the external world >>>continually changes and that which does not change with it will die. >>> >>>Mike Carrell >> >>Wow, Does the author of that book actually use language like "Living >>organisms are in continual contest with the unfolding Universe"? >====================================== >No, that phrase is my own, but it conveys the thrust of the argument in >the book. To me it is obvious that organisms from bacteria to men cannot >each get all they want all the time, so there is a 'contest' of sorts. Nor >does the universe we all live in remain constant but evolves, or unfolds, >what ever word you want. Amid this 'contest' there is also mutual >dependency and cooperation, for no member of the ecosystem can exist apart >from it, so altruism wins in the end. It is dynamic, and any attempt to >freeze it into some kind of idealized utopia will result in death of some >sort. A surfer riding a tube, a bubble of froth on a breaking wave are apt >metaphors for Life in the Universe. > >Mike Carrell > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 19:53:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7N2o3mc029233; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:53:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7N2djf6023893; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:39:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:39:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=R/UYNEC0o1RS5VlCaFC9khB24oZwb8pf8G1XyQ74LWQc7nzkksjTgPk7sem4JqyEdXbI9VYYcVhFFcWXP5g1AugmXWTl6CBvUOl8CbykJA5geMFvtx2SkCI6mX4Du7sniUN3m7xxVUFcl00N5l0DYMj16H4hOv/5XrwPA/v7tjU= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822213821.01eb0028 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:39:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.1.20060822064003.01eab350 pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: You know nothing whatsoever about myself or "my life", so you're making some pretty drastic assumptions. In short, you're out of line. P. At 01:49 PM 8/22/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > > > "If the goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a > > disgusting mix > > of opportunism and pragmatism." > > > > Nope - it's called "life". > > > > P. > >No, it is called "Your life". > >Harry > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:53 PM 8/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> Philip Winestone wrote: > >> > >>> Hmmmm.... I didn't say that meaningful change only happens through > >>> violence. If you read that into my note, you're simply reading your own > >>> fantasies... > >>> > >>> When people say a "stable world" it could mean many things. I > deliberately > >>> spoke about "scientific dogma," as this "scientific stability", is, > >>> apparently, what the Vorts are continuously fighting against. > >>> > >>> There is no such thing as stabiity either in the external or internal > >>> worlds, and so far, it seems to me that all those who have tried to > create > >>> a stable world, have tried to force stability on "the masses." Take > a look > >>> at a number of dictatorships and see if all the dictators of the > world were > >>> or were not prepared to use violence to enforce stability, because they > >>> knew that instability could be their downfall. So it seems in fact that > >>> stability is often gained - or attempted - through violence, the overall > >>> idea being "If only everybody believed and behaved as I do, we would > have a > >>> nice, stable world." > >> > >> > >> > >> The goal is for everyone to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. If the > >> goal is a combination of stability and instability that is a > disgusting mix > >> of opportunism and pragmatism. > >> > >>> Our enemies - and we do have enemies - would like to impose their type of > >>> stability on us; they've said as much: that eveyone should think and > dress > >>> and behave (and pray, if you're into that) one way only - their > >>> way. Stability. > >>> > >>> You want a reasonable way to unseat the terrorists? Make their lives > >>> continuously unstable. > >>> > >>> P. > >> > >> > >> For the first time in its history Israel did not achieve its military > >> objectives. It seems from media accounts that many Muslims and Arabs > >> consider it a victory are more ready to talk peace than ever before. > >> > >> > >> > >> Harry > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 04:23:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NBKEeK030239; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:22:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NBDiw7026294; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:13:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:13:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AztsKfmxcKtjWxB8TjI5UJdezGo7+0AC18wy6jUpJVzWr5kUza2XM35i/suGZecu; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068323111331881 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 05:13:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aad29e92f70e0549542733c91e17fd0e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.25 Resent-Message-ID: <4byR-D.A.raG.nhD7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. Thanks for the info on The Manganese "Water Splitter". Note the splitting reaction of adsorbed water with co-adsorbed Oxygen on page 331 and the water dissociation energies involved on various metals per Thiel & Madey: H2O + O ----> 2 OH 6 2 2 Electronegative additives, Influence of oxygen on dissociation of H2O pages 317 -342 http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones.
 
Thanks for the info on The Manganese "Water Splitter".
 
Note the splitting reaction of adsorbed water with co-adsorbed Oxygen on page 331 and
the water dissociation energies involved on various metals per Thiel & Madey:
 
H2O + O ----> 2 OH
 
6 2 2 Electronegative additives, Influence of oxygen on dissociation of H2O  pages 317 -342
 
 
 
Fred
 

 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 09:06:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NG5nEF024359; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NG5jb3024325; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=upKPm79d9UNOI8WBgJBYwbsM8dDRjiWJzpUHBH6lSc4fhAmIqgghetZbTfrumguzXRpOtA6ZsoZT0zMS5J6kvwLnlY46ukRUOOpCf+1/9qj/qlYj/sVRaO+tfvkyUxkwm5eATohNnyy3pqEe74JePTUgjxoRG/Nk4x6r/Tgv/lA= ; Message-ID: <20060823160542.84110.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex In-Reply-To: <410-220068323111331881 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Surface Splitting of Water for Making "Hydroxene" Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > Note the splitting reaction of adsorbed water with co-adsorbed Oxygen on page 331 and the water dissociation energies involved on various metals per Thiel & Madey: H2O + O ----> 2 OH Wow. Looking ahead, the importance of this technique- which is the use of a highly efficient electronegative metal catalyst, is extraordinary. The metal can possibly be colloidal, and in the 'big picture' this opens the way for the continuous onboard production - in a small reactor on an automobile, of HOOH in very significant quatities using only modest amounts of power from the engine and alternator. Am I missing something? It was proven in the space program that fossil fuels like kerosene (or diesel) will burn as cleanly and more efficiently in HOOH than in pure liquid cryogenic oxygen. The big bugaboo has always been the safety issues of HPT. Not to mention, hydrogen itself can be electrolyzed from peroxide using half the energy (or less) of water. But even disregarding that for a moment, consider this from just the oxidizer angle, assuming the ICE will be using traditional fuel (or biodiesel) Because of the many substantial physical difference of this liquid with water (including a density about 40% greater) this means that peroxide produced in lower concentration in an onboard reactor - but in large quantities, can probably be enriched *on demand* at the engine manifold itself, and therefore that large amounts of HTP - with all its inherent risks, can be avoided. This presents the correlate to the "just in time" method of inventory control. Given the low energy needed to manufacture this oxidizier 'in situ' and in enough quantity (gallons per hour) the next surprising step can now be envisioned. And it is a huge surprise. I have never heard this mentioned before, but it is seems clearly possible at first glance. It is very likely that HOOH can be made in such quantities that air will NOT BE REQUIRED to combust whatever fuel is being used (fossil fuel or hopefully biodiesel). Pressurized oxygen, required to make the peroxide, can be made at home and carried in scuba-type tanks. but NO other oxidizer will be needed ! If that does not strike a chord, then this is a subject which you are probably not tuned-into at a fundamental level. Much of the waste energy in an automobile is related directly to the intake and compression losses associated with using a gaseous oxidizer (air) which is only 20% active (the 80% nitrogen is 'along for the ride' and causes most of the waste). The compressive losses involved with air as an oxidizer are over 50% of all losses - and that is even before the first drop of fuel has been burned. Another way of saying this is that if you are getting 30 MPG then you could easily get 60 MPG if you could eliminate the need to use (compress) a gaseous oxidizer which is only 20% active. In contrast to this, a liquid oxidizer can be injected directly into a 2-cycle engine. No intake manifold, air cleaner, catalytic converter, etc are required! Plus the 4-cycle engine is contra-indicated - cutting the engine size and weight by 40%. Plus - low compression-ratios, which are terrible for using an air oxidizer, work just fine with a liquid, as we are now using a liquid mist not a gas - and it gives a complete burn with zero compression. At least that is my "Eureka Moment" for the day. Hope it is not just "a flash in the pan".... Maybe its time for a double-expresso and a more critical appraisal of the situation. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 09:22:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NGLuiu002714; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:21:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NGLrfX002677; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:21:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:21:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:23:16 +0100 Message-ID: <002001c6c6d0$71565ba0$b300a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6C6D8.D31AC3A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbG0G5b4jK3zs2MTae1kZdU7knGtA== Resent-Message-ID: <00C8DC.A.sp.gCI7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SciAm Sept Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6C6D8.D31AC3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saw Jed's post. I only dip in and out of vortex very infrequently. Saw this too on their front page: http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=get_your_free_energy_here &more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx Regards, Remi. ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6C6D8.D31AC3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Saw Jed’s post. I only dip in and out of vortex = very infrequently. Saw this too on their front = page:

 

http://blog.sciam.com/inde= x.php?title=3Dget_your_free_energy_here&more=3D1&c=3D1&tb=3D1= &pb=3D1

 

http://www.steorn.n= et/frontpage/default.aspx

 

Regards, Remi.

…………………̷= 0;…………………….=

Website

http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwa= ll

…………= …………………………= 230;….

 

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C6C6D8.D31AC3A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 09:44:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NGhmvX017798; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:43:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NGhknW017762; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:43:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:43:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:45:10 +0100 Message-ID: <003501c6c6d3$8081b0e0$b300a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6C6DB.E24618E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbG0G5b4jK3zs2MTae1kZdU7knGtAAAe8IAAABEBiA= Resent-Message-ID: <7nEVAC.A.VVE.CXI7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6C6DB.E24618E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw someone's post on this from a Yahoo website. Where's the beef? I know someone claiming exactly the same in the UK and I know the amount of money invested, the arguments, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances to come up with the goods (sorry can't or shan't name names). Flashy website, movies, no results, no papers, no beef. Damages the field. It's not Searl but it is very Searlesque. Leaves one asking the question, how? R. _____ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:remi corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 23 August 2006 17:23 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SciAm Sept Saw Jed's post. I only dip in and out of vortex very infrequently. Saw this too on their front page: http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=get_your_free_energy_here &more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx Regards, Remi. ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6C6DB.E24618E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I saw someone’s post on this = from a Yahoo website.

 

Where’s the beef? I know = someone claiming exactly the same in the UK and I know the amount = of money invested, the arguments, the 2nd, 3rd, = 4th chances to come up with the goods (sorry can’t or shan’t = name names). Flashy website, movies, no results, no papers, no beef. Damages = the field.

 

It’s not Searl but it is very Searlesque.

 

Leaves one asking the question, = how?

R.

 

From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:remi corn-wall.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 23 August 2006 = 17:23
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: SciAm = Sept

 

Saw Jed’s post. I only dip in and out of vortex = very infrequently. Saw this too on their front = page:

 

http://blog.sciam.com/inde= x.php?title=3Dget_your_free_energy_here&more=3D1&c=3D1&tb=3D1= &pb=3D1

 

http://www.steorn.n= et/frontpage/default.aspx

 

Regards, Remi.

…………………̷= 0;…………………….

Website

http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwa= ll

…………= …………………………= 230;….

 

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C6C6DB.E24618E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 10:10:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NHALIO004220; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:10:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NHAKpL004206; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:10:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:10:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823130615.03ed1e38 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:10:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx I am surprised to find that so many "scientists have expressed interest" in the Steorn magic magnetic motor challenge. Of course one does not know how many of these people are actually scientists or what "expressing interest" means, but I am still surprised that this many people have even bothered to respond. I hope the claims are real, although I very much doubt they are. I think this goes to show once again that the public is open-minded and willing to look at things. Keeping secrets is counterproductive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 03:34:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7NAYKNS005157; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 03:34:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7NAYIgh005120; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 03:34:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 03:34:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=ChrKnFJVvs6NVOfo1If/6y1pXqgX6a6VgEWx7dHBpu21B8F9sa7xLbhlWO8TTWaHtnsHYZJLWhzzNK0N+4/EClOXiFI/iG3/WafzswTZSwQZMMfLkjPnDQO8EElYMH2ROKe5fvvPlYcp05x48XJA6kjNUuE+ChO9X/S8RtLws7Y= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20060823063222.01eb4ae8 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 06:32:33 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: The "game of life" In-Reply-To: References: <20060822220053.GA31189 linux> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8rPbED.A.0PB.o8C7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At 12:13 AM 8/23/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Mark S Bilk wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 02:47:36PM -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> > >> These days you are supposed to see yourself as a contestant > >> in the "game of life". > > > > I've got a glider gun and I'm not afraid to use it! > > > >Put 'er down or the cabbage gets it. > >Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 22:56:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7O5tqPL013919; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:55:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7O5tolv013894; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:55:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:55:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=aH8Rm5raorUGwD/1HAoF8t12RxSdgwFnPjuQMDQmkGjvX0MAf72UDvef8zxqd6/cj6VosIfuNLgledY1ppx/UG+6VYC10rKlcQIh3mjBF/jKxUyQwLM29P89b9kXWYtCYP4EhQl5+/QWgAxDkYJIVZ2jKihf2UrVTQ4DNaBRoMU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:55:49 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823130615.03ed1e38 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_143699_17259672.1156398949090" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823130615.03ed1e38 mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ------=_Part_143699_17259672.1156398949090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting, I was going to post this to their websites forum but I can't see how your meant to register for it. (unless you have to register as an interested scientist) Free Energy is possible, that is to say the 'Law' of thermodynamics is just a theory based on early observation. One that not all observations since confirms. note: Only with math can you know what is and is not absolutely possible. It might be that the energy is coming from somewhere unknown or unknowable or that it is being created, it doesn't really matter. What probability is there that Steorn is for real? Well it's a real company that has patented methods for verifying credit card holograms and another for verifying if an optical disk came from a valid source. And a low energy magnetic actuator which Steorn have indicated is part of their generator technology. They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company. So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one. Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect, though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust this statement) Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to hoax this, a very expensive joke. Therefore using Occam's Razor we can deduce the most likely possibility is that Steorn is for real, soooooo.... If Steorn is for real then they need to be well aware that there are lots of people who gain money and power by controlling energy (needless to say wars are fought over it), and they will do anything they can to stop this. (assuming it isn't a stunt by such people to discredit any future claims by anyone else - possible but unlikely) So IMO they need to have a very open model (which is clearly and visibly isolated from any source of external input) and working in front of a bunch of people (press conference with demo), videoed in high resolution released via bit torrent, youtube etc... Plans that anyone (reasonably skilled) can make should also be released. But nothing can beat giving these to various people to test which is what they have done but IMO they should not only release to a few highly sceptical scientists but also have a few 'touring' models to send to the scientists (backyard and otherwise) who make free energy their field of study, because once a few such people (such as Jean Louis Naudin JLN Labs) are able to verify it and give reproducible plans you will have broken through. (look at all the 'lifter' replications) If you have lots of people world wide replicating this technology there will be no denying it! They should be aware of ways in which they may be attacked and ensure a massive sudden public release to render most any such measures useless or counterproductive. I must say I am deeply disappointed by the fact that 68% of the public according to the vote are openly supporting ignorance and biggoted dogma rather than open inquisition, must be bush voters. I am disgusted by such backwards thinking not seen since Catholic Church officials refused to look through Galileo's telescope. (Protecting reality by ignoring it) On 8/24/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > See: > > http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx > > I am surprised to find that so many "scientists have expressed > interest" in the Steorn magic magnetic motor challenge. Of course one > does not know how many of these people are actually scientists or > what "expressing interest" means, but I am still surprised that this > many people have even bothered to respond. I hope the claims are > real, although I very much doubt they are. > > I think this goes to show once again that the public is open-minded > and willing to look at things. Keeping secrets is counterproductive. > > - Jed > > > ------=_Part_143699_17259672.1156398949090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting, I was going to post this to their websites forum but I can't see how your meant to register for it. (unless you have to register as an interested scientist)


Free Energy is possible, that is to say the 'Law' of thermodynamics is just a theory based on early observation.
One that not all observations since confirms.

note: Only with math can you know what is and is not absolutely possible.

It might be that the energy is coming from somewhere unknown or unknowable or that it is being created, it doesn't really matter.

What probability is there that Steorn is for real?
Well it's a real company that has patented methods for verifying credit card holograms and another for verifying if an optical disk came from a valid source.

And a low energy magnetic actuator which Steorn have indicated is part of their generator technology.

They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company.

So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one.
Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect, though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust this statement)

Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to hoax this, a very expensive joke.

Therefore using Occam's Razor we can deduce the most likely possibility is that Steorn is for real, soooooo....

If Steorn is for real then they need to be well aware that there are lots of people who gain money and power by controlling energy (needless to say wars are fought over it), and they will do anything they can to stop this. (assuming it isn't a stunt by such people to discredit any future claims by anyone else - possible but unlikely)

So IMO they need to have a very open model (which is clearly and visibly isolated from any source of external input) and working in front of a bunch of people (press conference with demo), videoed in high resolution released via bit torrent, youtube etc...

Plans that anyone (reasonably skilled) can make should also be released.

But nothing can beat giving these to various people to test which is what they have done but IMO they should not only release to a few highly sceptical scientists but also have a few 'touring' models to send to the scientists (backyard and otherwise) who make free energy their field of study, because once a few such people (such as Jean Louis Naudin JLN Labs) are able to verify it and give reproducible plans you will have broken through. (look at all the 'lifter' replications)


If you have lots of people world wide replicating this technology there will be no denying it!

They should be aware of ways in which they may be attacked and ensure a massive sudden public release to render most any such measures useless or counterproductive.

I must say I am deeply disappointed by the fact that 68% of the public according to the vote are openly supporting ignorance and biggoted dogma rather than open inquisition, must be bush voters.

I am disgusted by such backwards thinking not seen since Catholic Church officials refused to look through Galileo's telescope. (Protecting reality by ignoring it)

On 8/24/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com > wrote:
See:

http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx

I am surprised to find that so many "scientists have expressed
interest" in the Steorn magic magnetic motor challenge. Of course one
does not know how many of these people are actually scientists or
what "expressing interest" means, but I am still surprised that this
many people have even bothered to respond. I hope the claims are
real, although I very much doubt they are.

I think this goes to show once again that the public is open-minded
and willing to look at things. Keeping secrets is counterproductive.

- Jed



------=_Part_143699_17259672.1156398949090-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 01:54:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7O8rf3O027142; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:53:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7O8rd2w027105; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:53:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:53:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:51:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7O8rUJp026910 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Chalk4Peace2006 SEPT 16/17- OUR STREETS 'R OUR MEDIA -WE have TOTAL access ++Moderators please allow this unique Global Peace Project to be posted on your grour - thanks :)++ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please copy this & forward this to your contacts ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ United Kingdom… United States…Egypt…Austria…Germany…Canada… Ecuador… Puerto Rico… France… Chile…Iran… Iraq…Mexico…Spain… Italy…Cypress…Israel… Everywhere! _______________________________________________________ A formatted colourful version of this e mail along with a poignant song from the amazing Martha Tilston can be found http://www.infinitepossibility.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The following has been e mailed to hundreds and thousands all over the world to activate the first simultaneous Chalk4Peace (scroll down) People young and old from all over the world are being activated to participate in this GLOBAL Art/Peace project taking place in communities everywhere Sept 16/17th This effort follows the success of smaller localized Chalk4Peace events in London since 2003 http://www.infinitepossibility.org/chalk and in various locations around the world notably The Museum of Modern ARF www.Modernarf.smugmug.com It is hoped that at least one million people will participate in this global outpouring of the heart. Individuals are encouraged to act alone or to organise groups in their local community to chalk on the pavements/sidewalks and contribute to this global tapestry up to the weekend of September 16/17 and beyond. "Chalk4Peace represents a new direction in activism. It requires no organisation other that the communication of the idea – it is self organising, using the streets as a form of media that is fully accessible to the general public and moved by the enthusiasm of those who are touched by the concept – Chalk is readily available every where! – It harmless, temporary, yet offers a unique way to contribute to the global conversation that shapes our culture". READ the e mail below for further information: Global Chalk4Peace - Sept 16/17th Mission Possible – "Our World Working For ALL of Us" We CAN Make THE Difference! ON THE WEEKEND OF SEPTEMBER 16 & 17th Chalk4Peace! On the pavements and sidewalks of our towns and cities You are invited to Take Action! - ("Scroll down for WHAT CAN YOU DO?") To Participate in this GLOBAL outpouring of public art. Where we make our personal statements for peace on the pavements and sidewalks of our cities all over our world. Chalk4Peace IS HAPPENING! All around the globe, together we are decorating, dedicating and declaring, in deep sincerity our collective call for peace. Chalk4Peace is about our empowerment. We The People, our global culture, all people everywhere and our common desire to live in peace. The Chalk4Peace project has already transformed the experience of thousands of people attending demonstrations for peace all over the world during the past 3 years. Chalk4Peace is both a tool and a conduit for non violent public self expression, and participation in the growing global movement for peace. Chalk4Peace is an opportunity for all of us of all ages to make our feelings known, especially the young, whose future is in dire jeopardy as our global village falls faster and faster into the fear breeding fear breeding fear spiral. Our global culture is teetering on the edge of extinction. No 1 person alone can turn this around, but together WE CAN! "The Structure of world peace cannot be the work of one man, one party,or one nation. It must be a peace which rests on the cooperative effort of the whole world" ... Eleanor Roosevelt Our basic human instincts drive us to seek safety. This is what this chaos is all about.Our essential human survival instincts are acting out of context with the wider global cultural need resulting in mistrust, fear and conflict. Everywhere the media is bombarding us with WAR TALK, distractions and negative belief patterns that encourage us to believe that the future of our world is out of our hands entirely. One place we still have communal access to, is OUR STREETS. We can balance our GLOBAL CONVERSATION with collective self-expression using OUR STREETS AS OUR MEDIA! Chalk4Peace is one step, a catalyst that can transform our global conversation as we the people, en masse make our statement that is our common aspiration for peace. START NOW! Just DO IT! Carry some chalk with you, invite a friend with you, to chalk inspirations on the pavement whenever and wherever you fancy. Chalk is harmless, cheap and washes away within a few days. Especially PARTICIPATE in the Sept 16 – 17th GLOBAL Chalk4Peace ACTION! Make it happen in your Community! (Scroll down for "WHAT CAN YOU DO?") Lets us turn our grey streets into a living river of colour and possibility - With poetry, hearts, peace symbols, empowering statements, also expressions of our frustrations and despair. All will be seen for several days by thousands of people, then as they are washed away by the elements WE CAN CONTINUE to find fresh places to Chalk4Peace. We don't need to be an artist to Chalk4Peace. Every statement, however small or large becomes part of the amazing tapestry that is our global future. This unique event conceivably, could be the largest of its kind in modern history. It is a global effort that is happening. We The People are spreading the word and making the effort to be a part of this huge creative endeavour to bring Peace back into the equation. It is our goal for at least one million or more of us to participate with this sidewalk/pavement chalk extravaganza, at thousands of locations, in as many countries, cities and towns around the world as is possible. So WHAT CAN YOU DO to help make this happen? 1. NETWORK this email to your friends, contacts and where ever else seems appropriate 2. JOIN the Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chalk4Peace or send a blank email to: Chalk4Peace-subscribe yahoogroups.com To network with others around the world who will be Chalking4Peace. 3. EMAIL: viziondanz ... to let us know what you are doing in your community, and please send us pictures. Or to find out how you can participate in the project. 4. ARRANGE with you local businesses, libraries, churches, mosques, synagogues, restaurants, supermarkets etc to chalk on the pavement outside their premises on the 16th/ 17th of September and whenever else. IIDENTIFY public squares such as Trafalgar Square in London and invite all your friends your friends' friends or a complete stranger to show up with a few boxes of chalk, or even get some from your local quarry. TAKE extra chalk with you to hand out to passers-by. 5. USE this Email as a press release for you local TV, Radio and Newspapers. Let them know that Chalk4Peace is happening ASAP to get the momentum going. 6. DOCUMENT YOUR Chalk4peace actions with photos and video. Send them to your local media - copies for our website will be greatly appreciated - send to: viziondanz ... 7. ENGAGE co-creatively in local communal efforts, strengthen working relationships and find what it takes to stand for peace and freedom. 8. Have lots of FUN and keep on Chalking4Peace after the September event. "FUN – The Final Frontier" How did Chalk4Peace begin? "Message in a bottle" http://www.infinitepossibility.org/chalk/message/ http://www.infinitepossibility.org/chalk http://www.myspace.com/chalk4peace for Chalk4Peace locations in America http://www.chalk4peace.org Its time for us to move beyond the "No to War" position and come together "Saying Yes2Peace" "If we don't create our future, our past will create it for us" http://www.infinitepossibility.org/yes1 Lets skip the war bit and just get to the peace… Greet someone new today, look into their eyes, smile, say hello, shake their hand ... LET THE PEACE BEGIN! Brian :) ================================================== http://www.myspace.com/viziondanz http://www.infinitepossibility.org "There is nothing wrong with our world, we are just having a weird conversation". "Reclaim the conversation" "Our New World Order IS Love!" Dedicated to the child inside each one of us, All the children and All the children to come. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 04:37:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7OBbRCx010962; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:37:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7OBbO9C010925; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:37:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:38:46 +0100 Message-ID: <004501c6c771$dd283730$b300a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6C77A.3EEC9F30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbHQhfvOz3hegk/Th2oqqCfc7N28wALmomA In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6C77A.3EEC9F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok try 'Professor' John Searl: http://www.searlsolution.com/ That guy and the tribe around him were completely nuts. Where's the beef!? Flying saucers that were so good they flew out the damn window to the moon just before anyone came around to verify it. Could be several things: 1) A viral marketing campaign to fix a brand in people's heads, to generate many hits - sort of a coming together like a flash-mob crowd. Doesn't matter what the product is, just hype. This is parasitic and bad for the field. 2) Could be that there is a genuine effect but why the secrecy? 3) Could be that they are mistaken, may be they are taken in by a Besseler's (?) Wheel type construct with magnets. They might genuinely believe they have something but this also highlights other things in their company portfolio, conveniently. Scientific Method - publish or be damned. Though in a mixed funding one must also protect IP but the whole point of patents is to encourage disclosure. Regards, R. _____ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22 gmail.com] Sent: 24 August 2006 06:56 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn Interesting, I was going to post this to their websites forum but I can't see how your meant to register for it. (unless you have to register as an interested scientist) Free Energy is possible, that is to say the 'Law' of thermodynamics is just a theory based on early observation. One that not all observations since confirms. note: Only with math can you know what is and is not absolutely possible. It might be that the energy is coming from somewhere unknown or unknowable or that it is being created, it doesn't really matter. What probability is there that Steorn is for real? Well it's a real company that has patented methods for verifying credit card holograms and another for verifying if an optical disk came from a valid source. And a low energy magnetic actuator which Steorn have indicated is part of their generator technology. They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company. So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one. Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect, though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust this statement) Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to hoax this, a very expensive joke. Therefore using Occam's Razor we can deduce the most likely possibility is that Steorn is for real, soooooo.... If Steorn is for real then they need to be well aware that there are lots of people who gain money and power by controlling energy (needless to say wars are fought over it), and they will do anything they can to stop this. (assuming it isn't a stunt by such people to discredit any future claims by anyone else - possible but unlikely) So IMO they need to have a very open model (which is clearly and visibly isolated from any source of external input) and working in front of a bunch of people (press conference with demo), videoed in high resolution released via bit torrent, youtube etc... Plans that anyone (reasonably skilled) can make should also be released. But nothing can beat giving these to various people to test which is what they have done but IMO they should not only release to a few highly sceptical scientists but also have a few 'touring' models to send to the scientists (backyard and otherwise) who make free energy their field of study, because once a few such people (such as Jean Louis Naudin JLN Labs) are able to verify it and give reproducible plans you will have broken through. (look at all the 'lifter' replications) If you have lots of people world wide replicating this technology there will be no denying it! They should be aware of ways in which they may be attacked and ensure a massive sudden public release to render most any such measures useless or counterproductive. I must say I am deeply disappointed by the fact that 68% of the public according to the vote are openly supporting ignorance and biggoted dogma rather than open inquisition, must be bush voters. I am disgusted by such backwards thinking not seen since Catholic Church officials refused to look through Galileo's telescope. (Protecting reality by ignoring it) On 8/24/06, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx I am surprised to find that so many "scientists have expressed interest" in the Steorn magic magnetic motor challenge. Of course one does not know how many of these people are actually scientists or what "expressing interest" means, but I am still surprised that this many people have even bothered to respond. I hope the claims are real, although I very much doubt they are. I think this goes to show once again that the public is open-minded and willing to look at things. Keeping secrets is counterproductive. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6C77A.3EEC9F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok try ‘Professor’ John = Searl:

 

http://www.searlsolution.com/<= o:p>

 

That guy and the tribe around him = were completely nuts. Where’s the beef!? Flying saucers that were so = good they flew out the damn window to the moon just before anyone came around to = verify it.

 

Could be several = things:

 

1)       = A viral marketing campaign to fix a brand in people’s = heads, to generate many hits – sort of a coming together like a flash-mob = crowd. Doesn’t matter what the product is, just hype. This is parasitic = and bad for the field.

 =

2)       = Could be that there is a genuine effect but why the = secrecy?

 

3)       = Could be that they are mistaken, may be they are taken in by = a Besseler’s (?) Wheel type construct with magnets. They might genuinely believe they = have something but this also highlights other things in their company = portfolio, conveniently.

 

Scientific Method – publish = or be damned. Though in a mixed funding one must also protect IP but the whole = point of patents is to encourage disclosure.

Regards,

R.

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22 gmail.com]
Sent: 24 August 2006 = 06:56
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 = scientists express interest in Steorn

 

Interesting, I = was going to post this to their websites forum but I can't see how your meant to = register for it. (unless you have to register as an interested scientist)


Free Energy is possible, that is to say the 'Law' of thermodynamics is = just a theory based on early observation.
One that not all observations since confirms.

note: Only with math can you know what is and is not absolutely = possible.

It might be that the energy is coming from somewhere unknown or = unknowable or that it is being created, it doesn't really matter.

What probability is there that Steorn is for real?
Well it's a real company that has patented methods for verifying credit = card holograms and another for verifying if an optical disk came from a valid source.

And a low energy magnetic actuator which Steorn have indicated is part = of their generator technology.

They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this = company.

So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one.
Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the = effect, though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to = be getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust = this statement)

Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a = hoax/joke but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to = hoax this, a very expensive joke.

Therefore using Occam's Razor we can deduce the most likely possibility = is that Steorn is for real, soooooo....

If Steorn is for real then they need to be well aware that there are = lots of people who gain money and power by controlling energy (needless to say = wars are fought over it), and they will do anything they can to stop this. = (assuming it isn't a stunt by such people to discredit any future claims by anyone = else - possible but unlikely)

So IMO they need to have a very open model (which is clearly and visibly isolated from any source of external input) and working in front of a = bunch of people (press conference with demo), videoed in high resolution released = via bit torrent, youtube etc...

Plans that anyone (reasonably skilled) can make should also be = released.

But nothing can beat giving these to various people to test which is = what they have done but IMO they should not only release to a few highly sceptical scientists but also have a few 'touring' models to send to the = scientists (backyard and otherwise) who make free energy their field of study, = because once a few such people (such as Jean Louis Naudin JLN Labs) are able to = verify it and give reproducible plans you will have broken through. (look at = all the 'lifter' replications)


If you have lots of people world wide replicating this technology there = will be no denying it!

They should be aware of ways in which they may be attacked and ensure a = massive sudden public release to render most any such measures useless or counterproductive.

I must say I am deeply disappointed by the fact that 68% of the public according to the vote are openly supporting ignorance and biggoted dogma = rather than open inquisition, must be bush voters.

I am disgusted by such backwards thinking not seen since Catholic Church officials refused to look through Galileo's telescope. (Protecting = reality by ignoring it)

On 8/24/06, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com > wrote:

See:

http://www.steorn.n= et/frontpage/default.aspx

I am surprised to find that so many "scientists have expressed
interest" in the Steorn magic magnetic motor challenge. Of course = one
does not know how many of these people are actually scientists or
what "expressing interest" means, but I am still surprised = that this
many people have even bothered to respond. I hope the claims are
real, although I very much doubt they are.

I think this goes to show once again that the public is open-minded
and willing to look at things. Keeping secrets is counterproductive.

- Jed

 

------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C6C77A.3EEC9F30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 08:26:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7OFQRsv018292; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:26:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7OFQPiF018271; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:26:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Z2ztK5H/4/kk/pi5Qhem0eQF102RIRLaWCAd5rC81dZuVFSejQFOtDK2q0elP+Iz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200684241526225 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:26:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940106c952a7de90e62842057682a5f4553350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.242 Resent-Message-ID: <1Ejx3.A.OdE.gUc7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII According to pages 239-245 and 328, 331, of the 175 page Thiel and Madey pdf; http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Colloidal Silver or Nickel agitated by running air and water through a small "Bubbulator" reaction chamber and piping the entrained OH from the reaction, H2O + O ----> 2 OH obtained by surface-activated water-splitting, along with the air into the ICE intake manifold, might cut the fuel bill if you don't turn blue first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver "Every cloud has a silver lining". :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

According to pages 239-245 and 328, 331, of  the 175 page Thiel and Madey pdf;
 
 
Colloidal Silver or Nickel agitated by running air and water through a small
"Bubbulator" reaction chamber and piping the entrained OH from the
reaction, H2O + O ----> 2 OH obtained by surface-activated water-splitting,
along with the air into the ICE intake manifold, might cut the fuel bill
if you don't turn blue first.
 
 
"Every cloud has a silver lining".  :-)
 
Fred
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 09:35:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7OGZAd4030515; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:35:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7OGZ8hZ030483; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Jap4OFqYvlo8CERTJWn0l2q+mQJZgnRQvMW8K4iPyTS21rTnuAHZbYiWWJPgaCuQaj2h06gAF33GHCg6NSIbbjsaf1OD6lLPZu75/opb3XD1rhmCgu0Eaxzh7YtyNIpgx2hkCSMtS5wniHsmQrjdUklt8qk/G569paZFrWhDmdo= ; Message-ID: <008201c6c79b$4218d5e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-2200684241526225 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:35:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber > Colloidal Silver or Nickel agitated by running air and water > through a small "Bubbulator" reaction chamber and piping the entrained OH from the reaction, H2O + O ----> 2 OH obtained by surface-activated water-splitting, along with the air into the ICE intake manifold, might cut the fuel bill if you don't turn blue first. "Every cloud has a silver lining". :-) YUP, and taking this a few steps further... ... run pressuized oxygen from an onboard tank through said reaction chamber which is fitted with a zeolite reformer, which will convert the 2OH into HOOH ... ...following which, this bulk flow from the zeolite reformer, still mostly H2O - then goes to the vicinity of an injector on an ICE engine ... This is a converted 2-cycle engine, with NO intake manifold, has a sealed crankcase like a 4-cycle, and instead has 2 injectors- one for the oxidizer and one for biodiesel. You do not need high compression ratio in this engine 4-1 is adequate. It can be tiny by comparison and can be uncooled and can be made mostly of reinforced ceramic. It is run lean at constand speed to drive a generator to charge batteries for the hybrid auto. You need high compression only with a true diesel for ignition, but because this fuel/oxidizer combination will auto-ignite at almost any pressure, then minimum pressure is sufficient. First however is the enrichement. Follwing a one-or-two step enrichment of the reactor effluent, possibly using ultrasonics of the mixed-flow H2O + HOOH, such that only enriched HTP is produced and then injected into the cylinder - and the depleted stream, mostly water, is returned to the reactor. HTP is never stored, it is too dangerous for that. The exhaust can be condensed so that less water need be carried. How is that for a sterling silver lining ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 09:41:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7OGf3bG002276; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:41:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7OGf2Tl002259; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:41:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:41:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060824092829.02b94458 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:45:39 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823130615.03ed1e38 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, I have a telephone interview set up with the CEO of Steorn at 1400 PST. Naturally, I have my own list of obvious questions about energy gain, measurements, experts etc.. If you can think of any questions which might be non-obvious, please send it to me OFF-LIST. Vorts: You can participate with me in this investigation. I would appreciate if some of you "scientists" can let me know if you can successfully register as such. http://www.steorn.net/en/register.aspx?p=9 Please let me know how it goes OFF-LIST. I would particularly like to know what data you provide for these fields, I will NOT disclose your names or an identifying data in my article. Academic institute OR research organisation: * Qualifications: * Area(s) of interest/ expertise/ research John, since this is a public forum, I'll probably be including some of your quotes in my article on this story. However, if you'd prefer to be anonymous please advise me. Steve At 10:55 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote: >Interesting, I was going to post this to their websites forum but I can't >see how your meant to register for it. (unless you have to register as an >interested scientist) > > >Free Energy is possible, that is to say the 'Law' of thermodynamics is >just a theory based on early observation. >One that not all observations since confirms. > >note: Only with math can you know what is and is not absolutely possible. > >It might be that the energy is coming from somewhere unknown or unknowable >or that it is being created, it doesn't really matter. > >What probability is there that Steorn is for real? >Well it's a real company that has patented methods for verifying credit >card holograms and another for verifying if an optical disk came from a >valid source. > >And a low energy magnetic actuator which Steorn have indicated is part of >their generator technology. > >They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company. > >So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one. >Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect, >though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be >getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust >this statement) > >Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke >but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to >hoax this, a very expensive joke. > >Therefore using Occam's Razor we can deduce the most likely possibility is >that Steorn is for real, soooooo.... > >If Steorn is for real then they need to be well aware that there are lots >of people who gain money and power by controlling energy (needless to say >wars are fought over it), and they will do anything they can to stop this. >(assuming it isn't a stunt by such people to discredit any future claims >by anyone else - possible but unlikely) > >So IMO they need to have a very open model (which is clearly and visibly >isolated from any source of external input) and working in front of a >bunch of people (press conference with demo), videoed in high resolution >released via bit torrent, youtube etc... > >Plans that anyone (reasonably skilled) can make should also be released. > >But nothing can beat giving these to various people to test which is what >they have done but IMO they should not only release to a few highly >sceptical scientists but also have a few 'touring' models to send to the >scientists (backyard and otherwise) who make free energy their field of >study, because once a few such people (such as Jean Louis Naudin JLN Labs) >are able to verify it and give reproducible plans you will have broken >through. (look at all the 'lifter' replications) > > >If you have lots of people world wide replicating this technology there >will be no denying it! > >They should be aware of ways in which they may be attacked and ensure a >massive sudden public release to render most any such measures useless or >counterproductive. > >I must say I am deeply disappointed by the fact that 68% of the public >according to the vote are openly supporting ignorance and biggoted dogma >rather than open inquisition, must be bush voters. > >I am disgusted by such backwards thinking not seen since Catholic Church >officials refused to look through Galileo's telescope. (Protecting reality >by ignoring it) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 15:55:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7OMsviH021700; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:54:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7OMstqk021683; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:54:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060824155149.028e8e80 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:59:18 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_369566437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorm Status: RO X-Status: A --=====================_369566437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey Vorts, I just got off a 1-hour recorded phone interview with the CEO of Steorm. I have no idea what to make of the claims, nor do I expect any of us to know anything meaningful for months, perhaps years. Short of an apparent contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions - within the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the mp3 posted in a few days. Mark Goldes, I'll be particularly interested in your comments. Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. NEW ENERGY TIMES Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions* (*historically known as "cold fusion") 11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 www.newenergytimes.com Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 --=====================_369566437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hey Vorts,

I just got off a 1-hour recorded phone interview with the CEO of Steorm. I have no idea what to make of the claims, nor do I expect any of us to know anything meaningful for months, perhaps years. Short of an apparent contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions - within the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the mp3 posted in a few days.

Mark Goldes, I'll be particularly interested in your comments.

Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
NEW ENERGY TIMES
Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions* 
(*historically known as "cold fusion")

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189


--=====================_369566437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 18:24:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7P1LLBc024104; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:24:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7P1CRcN020673; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:12:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:12:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060824155149.028e8e80 mail.newenergytimes.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, stevek@dlsi.net Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:11:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2006 01:12:03.0208 (UTC) FILETIME=[793B7080:01C6C7E3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Steve, I believe they have done what they claim. They appear to be honest and capable. Nothing rings false to me. Their approach is bold, difficult, and very understandable. Cheers, Mark >From: Steven Krivit >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:59:18 -0700 > >Hey Vorts, > >I just got off a 1-hour recorded phone interview with the CEO of Steorm. I >have no idea what to make of the claims, nor do I expect any of us to know >anything meaningful for months, perhaps years. Short of an apparent >contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that >McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions - within >the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the mp3 posted >in a few days. > >Mark Goldes, I'll be particularly interested in your comments. > > >Steven B. Krivit >Editor, New Energy Times >Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. >NEW ENERGY >TIMES >Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions* >(*historically known as "cold fusion") > >11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 >Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 >www.newenergytimes.com >Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 18:59:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7P1xW2K009586; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:59:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7P1xVg4009568; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:59:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:59:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060824190304.02aa5e98 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 19:04:13 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060824155149.028e8e80 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wow...that's quite a confident endorsement Mark... we'll be talking. I think you'll enjoy (at least parts) of my interview with him. Especially the part about "trying to shake up the physics community." Steve At 06:11 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: >Steve, > >I believe they have done what they claim. They appear to be honest and >capable. Nothing rings false to me. Their approach is bold, difficult, >and very understandable. > >Cheers, > >Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 21:33:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7P4UjWN002762; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:33:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7P4R3o6001071; Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:27:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:27:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44EE7BFC.3030203 usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:26:36 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Doctor is in Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; Merlin is a computer program which predicts future events with an 80% accuracy. One of the developers is George Hart, PhD physics. To get the full story, truncate the URL at Merlin. Now if I can just figure out how to listen to his sound file on Iran. I'm posting this to call your attention to this page, particularly the Epistemology of the Occult. The rest of the page has some other interesting comments too. http://www.accessbest.com/merlin/doctor_george.htm --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 06:03:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PD2v1Y012560; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 06:02:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PCpMKS007592; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 05:51:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 05:51:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:51:38 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:51:44 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:51:46 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <4XCUKC.A.Q2B.FJv7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn Status: RO X-Status: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1858134,00.html Relevant extract: The rest of us can only wait and see. In the meantime, I ask Martin Fleischmann, the cold-fusion scientist, now 79 and retired, what he thought of the Steorn project. "I am actually a conventional scientist," he says, "but I do accept that the existing [quantum electro-dynamic] paradigm is not adequate. If what these men are saying turns out to be true, that would be proof that the paradigm was inadequate and we would have to come up with some new theory. But I don't think their claims are credible. No, I cannot see how the position of magnetic fields allows one to create energy." With great charm, Dr Fleischmann wishes the Steorn team luck. And if their "free" energy can light up a developing-world village or the eyes of a child with a toy, then perhaps we all should. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 07:22:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PEMJvb021363; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PEMHZw021343; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=jjxm4pLHqBs2VhmnFFhU6oYNXIbQ86hkd1edg7YVd3GjNYtMDJC3khFwSV6ARXGkRFmv3/Sf/v7raO/Ylg1/rWlp8IUZqVtP/R77T9cGEcTBFew0cTgQcVHQncHtk6xbVoC5pJFHJQLbzu+2dqR8HSkGYxyJvMySfkSboDkPnnM= ; Message-ID: <000d01c6c851$dee93750$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Air, fire and the ICE. Status: O X-Status: The "average" molecule of gasoline (octane) is C8H18 and the idealized combustion reaction is 2 molecules of octane reacting with 25 molecules of oxygen (O2) to form 18 molecules of water (steam) and 16 molecules of carbon dioxide. Your car is already a "steam engine" (slightly) although by far the largest component of the exhaust is neither of these two gases - and it (N2) is all waste (to be explained). Of course, this idealized reaction above only occurs in a cyberworld. In the real world, there is not enough free oxygen available "fast-enough" to allow the reaction to occur completely. Nitrogen slows-down the availability of oxygen and keeps the fuel from burning completely. Consequently there is substantial and undesirable unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide (CO), not to mention oxides of nitrogen NOx formed as well in the car exhaust which we all must breathe. The catalytic converter cleans these up toxins effectively, but nowadays this item costs the car manufacturer about 15-20% of the net cost of the entire engine! due to the need for precious metals. If the catalytic converter can be dispensed with, that cost can be applied to whatever system can eliminate it. Since the oxygen for combustion is provided by using half of the ICE's revolutions to suck air into the engine, and since air consists of nearly 80% nitrogen, we have waste on top of waste - which is entrenched at the design level ---- and entrenched to the extent that we seldom have considered alternatives to this basic design of using only air as an oxidizer. The standard operating procedure of a "modern" ICE is really a historical legacy of inefficiency and toxicity. There are better ways - but they are more complicated, involve new devices and new thinking - and it takes hundreds of thousands of man-hours to perfect any improvement - to the level of reliability demanded by consumer. That "better way" of engine design will, of necessity, need to be legislated into being. Going back to the fist paragraph, the required 25 molecules of O2, which come from air, come mixed with ~4 times as much nitrogen - N2, therefore that gives you 125 molecules of gas taken into the ICE to burn just two molecules of fuel. Because this gas must be compressed to burn efficiently (give the oxygen minimum mobility) and because compression-and-expansion, although "spring-like" is grossly inefficient in itself, the nitrogen makes the whole system roughly 4 time more inefficient than it could/should be. When air is compressed, the energy returned on expansion is generally less than half the energy applied. When one looks at the Carnot efficiency of an automobile being only in the 25-30% range, it can be shown that over half of the inefficiency (that is, half the ~75% of waste) is due to the requirement of compressing the unused nitrogen which does not contribute to combustion, but does contribute strongly to pollution. ERGO - when one looks at the big picture, it puts into perspective why and how a few (occasionally) sane observers in Volandia - could even suggest that a liquid oxidant be substituted for air, knowing all the while that there is one - and only one - suitable liquid oxidizer which can be considered feasible - hydrogen peroxide - and this chemical has its own set of risks - potentially explosive risks. Not to mention, it is too expensive to be purchased (at today's prices) even though the raw materials are free. Is the situation hopeless ? Stay tuned.... and be prepared to use your "vote" i.e. your political leverage this November - to inform every candidate that they MUST vote-in legislation like the H-Prize (and expand it to include more good ideas) - and to do it ASAP (before the end of the year) !!! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 07:23:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PEMwSw021845; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PEMuhQ021816; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:22:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aCwSvNbrUSWxLtdWvf8YlfVb/lvZ6XhqNANL1SquhcS/VSApQNtyedQ8ROZPnHenplXajDIH6Oe3lXdfOzLWV0IGIK1asr5nPL0T8l1dv435oX86nieqaSjmUxtPCGLaXstU7NkrhNul9BeHtsIECbgR72yWrVSnaOxpIHPuNeU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:22:55 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/25/06, Walter Faxon wrote: > No, I cannot see how the > position of magnetic fields allows one to create energy." Not position but displacement. Place a copper coil near the PM and move the shield between the PM and the coil. Voila! Current flows in the coil. Now the real question: "Does the Lenz effect apply?" The other question: "Is the energy induced in the coil greater than what is required to move the shield?" Paul Sprain and I think "No and Yes" respectively. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 07:37:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PEbcAi030336; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:37:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PEbbVN030317; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:37:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:37:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825103634.03eccc80 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:37:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: SciAm's Rennie attacks cold fusion again Status: RO X-Status: See: http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=sending_science_to_pluto&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 QUOTE: Let's be finicky in our application of the phrase. For example, Newtonian physics did not get sent to Pluto. It was shown to be a valid approximation of Einstein's relativistic physics for objects moving well below the speed of light, and as such was incorporated into the newer theory. And cold fusion, N-rays, Velikovskian planet billiards and similar crackpottery weren't sent to Pluto either because they never enjoyed a significant period of acceptance by the scientific community (perhaps they all reside on another planet... Uranus?). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 08:07:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PF6m79015694; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:06:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PF6kj6015673; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:06:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OQ4M/8xsYmcQnMLChLuiFKZegFRz7MyKMN2S9P39N0sMm8T+d1NHl4HpaDduQI7BT8pl3/vym2jIyi8P5uB7/OZ7iGW8Og2vQVEc0xkl68FrvI+OTfzDemxM8Z0/7wFuuH2YTsjiw+15Op+ADSqpXQ7FD+m0BWGeDWWQhXCUWn4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:06:44 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <85ZHBC.A.q0D.FIx7EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/25/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Now the real question: "Does the Lenz effect apply?" I should clarify this a bit. It does not apply in the way it does in a standard electric motor. There will be an induced opposition to current flow; but, I think it will be mostly eddy currents in the Cu. It should be fairly easy to test. Anyone got some mumetal? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 10:25:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PHPL9F022187; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:25:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PHPJoJ022169; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:25:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:25:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:23:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 8/25/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Now the real question: "Does the Lenz effect apply?" > > I should clarify this a bit. It does not apply in the way it does in > a standard electric motor. There will be an induced opposition to > current flow; but, I think it will be mostly eddy currents in the Cu. > > It should be fairly easy to test. Anyone got some mumetal? > > Terry > Have I got the implication correct? Systems where either the input is mechanical power and the output is electrical power OR the reverse do obey lenz law ... but a system of permanent magnets whose input AND output is mechanical power does not obey lenz law. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 14:43:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PLe35t023001; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:42:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PLc1ZB021841; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:38:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:38:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Q2Wr4/pR4ctqpLag/Sq5C9HWvXW3u4FZj2s84M/9m9xMq9ChB7pAeMK8LAXpqzl01wow37kO0PVbMnztY4uAv22qlGsy53kC/nJxwpRaghOFtl/GyRnvKEwILvyarEEJ67sn/lXZO17CeyV6lezsvLkzgVAjopESzDno5dDcMNg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:37:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/25/06, Harry Veeder wrote: > Systems where either the input is mechanical power and the output is > electrical power OR the reverse do obey lenz law ... > > but a system of permanent magnets whose input AND output is mechanical power > does not obey lenz law. If the shield is in motion and is already saturated how does the coil induce a back EMF in the shield? Neither the magnet nor the coil is in motion. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 16:15:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7PNEv4l013572; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:14:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7PNEsnO013543; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:14:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:14:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20060825161856.02efdb10 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:19:20 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_457162750==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_457162750==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_457162750==.ALT" --=====================_457162750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Emacs! Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions News Alert, Aug. 25, 2006 STEORN CHALLENGES THE FIRST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS "I think the point that we're making is that this publicity stunt, and it is a publicity stunt, has one direct aim, and that is to grab the attention of the scientific world really to get them angry enough to have to deal with this. The question we're asking is an honest question to the world of science: either prove this works or prove it doesn't work - whatever you find, and to also make absolutely sure the answer is put into the public domain. As far as we're concerned, we're not asking a question we don't know the answer to." - Sean McCarthy, Chief Executive Officer of Steorn As far as I know, there is no such thing as free energy, or magnetic motor energy. Science textbooks make it clear that such talk is nonsense, the equivalent of perpetual motion. And no inventor has come forward so far to physically demonstrate to the public that science has been incomplete in its understanding and explanation of the physical universe. Last week, principles from Steorn, an Irish technology company posted a full- page ad in the Economist magazine challenging the world's physicists to a duel: Come test our machine, and prove us right or wrong. "Our position on this is that we don't expect anybody in the general public to believe us at this point," McCarthy said. "We're just asking people to believe the process [of the audit.] We're saying that at the end of this process, the answer is going to be published whether we're right or wrong." They are inviting a panel of scientists to audit their claims, with virtually no restrictions, except to publicly disclose their findings once the audit is complete. Without a doubt, the manner in which Steorn has proceeded is unconventional. But then, so is its claim: energy with no apparent material source. Naturally, it makes no sense for them to proceed in a conventional scientific manner. The peer review process is grossly incapable of handling unconventional claims and paradigm-challenging research. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to speak with Sean McCarthy, Chief Executive Officer of Steorn, and ask every question that I could think of. My conclusion at the end of our talk is that I have no idea what to make of all this. However, I can say that McCarthy was very direct and forthcoming with me. Steorn has issued a bold challenge to the physics establishment, and this establishment will not acquiesce without a fight. I predict that none of us will know whether this claim is valid for months, perhaps years. If the company's panel of experts determines that the claim demonstrates new science, the remaining question is, Who will pay attention to it and who will ignore it? Introduction to the interview and two sound clips (2:47 minutes) http://newenergytimes.com/Audio/2006Steorn-McCarthyIntro-Aug24.mp3 Full interview, (51 minutes, includes introduction) http://newenergytimes.com/Audio/2006Steorn-McCarthyFull-Aug24.mp3 ---------- New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_457162750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Emacs!

Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions
News Alert, Aug. 25, 2006



STEORN CHALLENGES THE FIRST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS
 
"I think the point that we're making is that this publicity stunt, and it is a publicity stunt, has one direct aim, and that is to grab the attention of the scientific world really to get them angry enough to have to deal with this.
 
The question we're asking is an honest question to the world of science: either prove this works or prove it doesn't work - whatever you find, and to also make absolutely sure the answer is put into the public domain. As far as we're concerned, we're not asking a question we don't know the answer to."
 
- Sean McCarthy, Chief Executive Officer of Steorn
 
 
As far as I know, there is no such thing as free energy, or magnetic motor energy. Science textbooks make it clear that such talk is nonsense, the equivalent of perpetual motion. And no inventor has come forward so far to physically demonstrate to the public that science has been incomplete in its understanding and explanation of the physical universe.
 
Last week, principles from Steorn, an Irish technology company posted a full- page ad in the Economist magazine challenging the world's physicists to a duel: Come test our machine, and prove us right or wrong.

 
"Our position on this is that we don't expect anybody in the general public to believe us at this point," McCarthy said. "We're just asking people to believe the process [of the audit.] We're saying that at the end of this process, the answer is going to be published whether we're right or wrong."  
 
 
They are inviting a panel of scientists to audit their claims, with virtually no restrictions, except to publicly disclose their findings once the audit is complete.

Without a doubt, the manner in which Steorn has proceeded is unconventional. But then, so is its claim: energy with no apparent material source.
 
Naturally, it makes no sense for them to proceed in a conventional scientific manner. The peer review process is grossly incapable of handling unconventional claims and paradigm-challenging research.
 
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to speak with Sean McCarthy, Chief Executive Officer of Steorn, and ask every question that I could think of. My conclusion at the end of our talk is that I have no idea what to make of all this. However, I can say that McCarthy was very direct and forthcoming with me.
 
Steorn has issued a bold challenge to the physics establishment, and this establishment will not acquiesce without a fight.
 
I predict that none of us will know whether this claim is valid for months, perhaps years. If the company's panel of experts determines that the claim demonstrates new science, the remaining question is, Who will pay attention to it and who will ignore it?
 

Introduction to the interview and two sound clips (2:47 minutes)
http://newenergytimes.com/Audio/2006Steorn-McCarthyIntro-Aug24.mp3

Full interview, (51 minutes, includes introduction)
http://newenergytimes.com/Audio/2006Steorn-McCarthyFull-Aug24.mp3



New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.

If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm.
 

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with ESMTP id k7Q00Nmo000824; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:00:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7Q00Mrt000808; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:00:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:00:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:55:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3e2ve21iudg4odr4ddld37bhb38mogu9g9 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:55:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7Q00EBV000702 Resent-Message-ID: <5Kpiw.A.QM.V847EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Half baked idea Status: O X-Status: Hi, Someone recently mentioned the phenomenon of all the clocks in a clock shop self synchronizing. My guess would be that this is due to the transmission of vibrations through the planks they sit on. Mind shift. Protons trapped in the van Allen belts will preces about the Earth's magnetic field lines. Perhaps they too tend to self synchronize with the magnetic fields lines as the synchronization medium. The magnetic field lines pass right through the planet, and are also accessible where we live. Any free proton may also tend to preces about the Earth's field lines in synchrony with those in the belts, with energy being transferred by the field lines (yes I know, magnetic fields do no work, but in this case they would just be transferring energy from those in orbit to those in the lab). During water electrolysis free protons abound, particularly in an acidic environment, and any local magnetic field would tend to disrupt the Earth's field - hence the emphasis on non-magnetic hardware. Are the protons in a Joe cell being "juiced up" by energy transported to them from others trapped in the van Allen belts? And if so, how is this energy released in the engine? (Randomization of the magnetic axes in the engine might explain "magnetic" cooling of the engine). If anyone sees any potential value in this concept, can they put some numbers to it? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 17:39:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7Q0dl8g018074; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:39:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7Q0dj9Q018057; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:39:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:39:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:40:07 -0400 From: "Walter Faxon" To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: SciAm's Rennie attacks cold fusion again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: WorldClient 8.1.3 X-Authenticated-Sender: wfaxon newebmail.com X-Return-Path: wfaxon newebmail.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-L eskimo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) X-Spam-Report: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:40:18 -0400 X-MDAV-Processed: newebmail.com, Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:40:20 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > >http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=sending_science_to_pluto&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 > > QUOTE: > > Let's be finicky in our application of the phrase. For example, > Newtonian physics did not get sent to Pluto. It was shown to be > a valid approximation of Einstein's relativistic physics for > objects moving well below the speed of light, and as such was > incorporated into the newer theory. And cold fusion, N-rays, > Velikovskian planet billiards and similar crackpottery weren't > sent to Pluto either because they never enjoyed a significant > period of acceptance by the scientific community (perhaps they > all reside on another planet... Uranus?). ----- The associated link for cold fusion is to the wikipedia article, which no longer condemns CF as "pathological science" or the like -- it even quotes Beaudette! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Aug 25 19:25:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7Q2OnQG031177; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:24:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7Q2Olhq031159; Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:24:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:24:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Fpb7gOTKxv9Dhozi0RwLVzWOZv5HTBp+h/D4kSLAkGlWvxTgLv3FZns7gT2lTSMeJz1RTY0yKBrI5QEZ2TDrvaPMrXk64Ip4Z1nNjXndXDFLnmQzJSUXUAwLaVG/y4iqY6UA8UCJ3c9OZiNiPGtFL79UEUI1WZZ/vON2pV9POBc= ; Message-ID: <20060826022445.99508.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:24:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3e2ve21iudg4odr4ddld37bhb38mogu9g9 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-315217242-1156559085=:98835" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-315217242-1156559085=:98835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS. Chris Arnold Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Hi, Someone recently mentioned the phenomenon of all the clocks in a clock shop self synchronizing. My guess would be that this is due to the transmission of vibrations through the planks they sit on. Mind shift. Protons trapped in the van Allen belts will preces about the Earth's magnetic field lines. Perhaps they too tend to self synchronize with the magnetic fields lines as the synchronization medium. The magnetic field lines pass right through the planet, and are also accessible where we live. Any free proton may also tend to preces about the Earth's field lines in synchrony with those in the belts, with energy being transferred by the field lines (yes I know, magnetic fields do no work, but in this case they would just be transferring energy from those in orbit to those in the lab). During water electrolysis free protons abound, particularly in an acidic environment, and any local magnetic field would tend to disrupt the Earth's field - hence the emphasis on non-magnetic hardware. Are the protons in a Joe cell being "juiced up" by energy transported to them from others trapped in the van Allen belts? And if so, how is this energy released in the engine? (Randomization of the magnetic axes in the engine might explain "magnetic" cooling of the engine). If anyone sees any potential value in this concept, can they put some numbers to it? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --0-315217242-1156559085=:98835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Gents, I cannot take this - any longer.
 
Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS.
 
Chris Arnold

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Hi,

Someone recently mentioned the phenomenon of all the clocks in a
clock shop self synchronizing. My guess would be that this is due
to the transmission of vibrations through the planks they sit on.

Mind shift.

Protons trapped in the van Allen belts will preces about the
Earth's magnetic field lines. Perhaps they too tend to self
synchronize with the magnetic fields lines as the synchronization
medium.

The magnetic field lines pass right through the planet, and are
also accessible where we live.

Any free proton may also tend to preces about the Earth's field
lines in synchrony with those in the belts, with energy being
transferred by the field lines (yes I know, magnetic fields do no
work, but in this case they would just be transferring energy from
those in orbit to those in the lab).

During water electrolysis free protons abound, particularly in an
acidic environment, and any local magnetic field would tend to
disrupt the Earth's field - hence the emphasis on non-magnetic
hardware.

Are the protons in a Joe cell being "juiced up" by energy
transported to them from others trapped in the van Allen belts?

And if so, how is this energy released in the engine?

(Randomization of the magnetic axes in the engine might explain
"magnetic" cooling of the engine).

If anyone sees any potential value in this concept, can they put
some numbers to it?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --0-315217242-1156559085=:98835-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 00:52:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7Q7qP5I001706; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:52:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7Q7qN67001682; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NtIjMRGshLO7mVtT1h/Kj2JllBUGL6yWov0zwJAUe26G/gHlLlUZ0mXQw2Tj9QVt; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006862675213705 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 01:52:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94075c1d9cf737809f6641ff2f3080dafac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.111 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote. > >Fred wrote > > > Colloidal Silver or Nickel agitated by running air and water through > > a small "Bubbulator" reaction chamber and piping the entrained OH > > from the reaction, H2O + O ----> 2 OH obtained by surface-activated > > water-splitting, along with the air into the ICE intake manifold > > might cut the fuel bill. > > ... run pressurized oxygen from an onboard tank through said > reaction chamber which is fitted with a zeolite reformer, > which will convert the 2OH into HOOH ... > On the down side, Silver is a good HOOH destroyer: 2 HOOH + (Ag "Catalyst") -----> 2 H2O + O2 + 210 kJ You can check this out with 3% H2O2 and a silver spoon. Putting copper coins and some peroxide in a flat-bottomed dish is a fun way to watch the coins crawl around as the O2 builds up beneath them. The kids like it, if they don't get bored waiting. :-) I had once considered making "racing" toys based on this effect using Manganese Dioxide plated "racers" which is much more vigorous in the peroxide decomposition reaction. I think the silver water-splitting H2O + O ----> 2 OH reaction is a form of unstable silver "hydroxide" Ag:(OH)2 which gives possibilities for M:(OH)x or possibly metal oxide, MOx:(OH)y. Any of these can be checked for activity using 3% Hydrogen Peroxide and various coins or other metals. Since II silver oxide (AgO) decomposes at about 230 C , it holds promise, but other colloid materials might be better. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote.
>
>Fred wrote
>
> > Colloidal Silver or Nickel agitated by running air and water through
> > a small "Bubbulator" reaction chamber and piping the entrained OH
> > from the reaction, H2O + O ----> 2 OH obtained by surface-activated
> > water-splitting, along with the air into the ICE intake manifold
> > might cut the fuel bill.
>
> ... run pressurized oxygen from an onboard tank through said
> reaction chamber which is fitted with a zeolite reformer,
> which will convert the 2OH into HOOH ...
>
On the down side, Silver is a good HOOH destroyer:
 
2 HOOH + (Ag "Catalyst") -----> 2 H2O + O2 + 210 kJ
 
You can check this out with 3% H2O2 and a silver spoon.
 
Putting copper coins and some peroxide in a flat-bottomed dish is
a fun way to watch the coins crawl around as the O2 builds up
beneath them.  The kids like it, if they don't get bored waiting.  :-)
 
I had once considered making "racing" toys based on this effect using
Manganese Dioxide plated "racers" which is much more vigorous
in the peroxide decomposition reaction.
 
I think the silver water-splitting H2O + O ----> 2 OH  reaction
is a form of unstable silver "hydroxide" Ag:(OH)2 which
gives possibilities for M:(OH)x  or possibly metal oxide, MOx:(OH)y.
 
Any of these can be checked for activity using 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
and various coins or other metals.
 
Since II silver oxide (AgO) decomposes at about 230 C , it
holds promise, but other colloid materials might be better.
 
Fred
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 06:38:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QDbxqu014844; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:38:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QDbuIP014820; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:37:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:37:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:39:23 +0100 Message-ID: <002001c6c915$0baef770$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbJFQe5rpHTHrC4RBu+Fiocq3maSw== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Basic electromagnetism, [Vo]: Martin Fleischmann comments on Steorn Status: O X-Status: Vo, See below. Read Feynman vol. 2 and look at the sections on virtual work (such as moving a dielectric in a capacitor or similar) and use of the Lorentz equation where the flux cutting idea won't work. Model the PM as a dipole. The field will fall off with distance from the central axis. Your moving piece of copper will have its charge carriers set in motion by the Lorentz force. Now since the field is not uniform across the piece of copper there will be a net flow of current in it at right angles to the field. The copper becomes a dipole too. Now since the field from the PM is not uniform the Cu will experience a force F = -mu.dB/dx where mu is the dipole moment (IxA) of the copper dipole. This will act to repel it. The induced current (eddy current) will make the Cu warm. In the limit with a superconductor and displacement from the start position will result in restorative forces. (Think of the Meisner effect and a piece of superconductor suspended above a PM). After air drag effects the piece of sc returns to a balance between magnetic and gravitational forces. Now, yes, the Cu will shield and if you put a coil near it to pick up the flux change a current will be induced. This current makes the coil generate its own field which acts in the sense of boosting the field near the Cu (that is with good linkage so that it is a good transducer). Now that field (Lenz's Law) acts to retard the motion of the Cu - it becomes an energy transducer - its K.E. gets converted into electrical energy in the coil. Overall: KE of Cu = eddy current losses in Cu + electrical conversion in coil. Without very good design the losses in the Cu will predominate. Now Magnetostatics states: Div H = Div M And Curl H = 0 It is exactly analogous to Electrostatics that is, the field is conservative and one cannot move in it in anyway and accrue net energy gain. If Steorn know something different we are all ears but please show your results. My guess, another John Searl: http://www.searlsolution.com/ All flim-flam and finance no substance. Where's the beef? Christ (Buddah, Mohamed, Yahweh, God, Clinton, Blair, Anan for fairness) even the look of the corporate web looks the same. Guess they got the same style sheet. R. Terry Blanton Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:24:18 -0700 On 8/25/06, Walter Faxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No, I cannot see how the position of magnetic fields allows one to create energy." Not position but displacement. Place a copper coil near the PM and move the shield between the PM and the coil. Voila! Current flows in the coil. Now the real question: "Does the Lenz effect apply?" The other question: "Is the energy induced in the coil greater than what is required to move the shield?" Paul Sprain and I think "No and Yes" respectively. Terry ................. Website http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall ................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 07:04:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QE40CT027292; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:04:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QE3w4t027267; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:03:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:03:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=b0iGNvTbZfPlWDhIsqvnTacKtHyUKI46NSIQRvlHsy5x144cfl1CJScwkzSweBjU; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006862614344996 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Jones Beene" , "vortex-l" Subject: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:03:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940781238f199daa7320a68890a5aa31105350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.129 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Other Possibilities using colloidal Zinc. Zinc Peroxide: ZnO2.1/2 H2O http://www.jxyongtai.com/pages/product/product18en.htm "Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide produced by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen peroxide. Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in water, and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide. It decomposes at 150°C and releases oxygen." Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust": http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1220&head=Galvanising%2B-%2BWhite%2BRust%2BPrevention%2Band%2BCure "One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised coatings of all kinds is ‘white rust’ or ‘white storage stain’. It is manifested as a bulky, white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the galvanised coating under certain specific conditions." "Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved salts or minerals and zinc will react quickly with pure water to form zinc hydroxide, a bulky white and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly galvanised steel is exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an oxygen deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc and progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in which white rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested together, tightly packed, or when water can penetrate between the items and remain for extended periods." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

"Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide produced by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen peroxide.
Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in water, and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide.
It decomposes at 150°C and releases oxygen."
 
Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust":
 
 
"One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised coatings of all kinds is ‘white rust’ or ‘white storage stain’. It is manifested as a bulky, white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the galvanised coating under certain specific conditions."
 
"Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved salts or minerals and zinc will react quickly with pure water to form zinc hydroxide, a bulky white and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly galvanised steel is exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an oxygen deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc and progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in which white rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested together, tightly packed, or when water can penetrate between the items and remain for extended periods."
 
 
Fred
 

 

 

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 07:43:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QEhJI7015243; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:43:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QEhHun015215; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:43:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:43:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=aC0Y0TucZvl2XkEvUWr7WZkwKO5uNfCCP4gWsbgrt3rcZC7Tmf12772piw8RQBNzp31gTG4Oqj3WlCli1nmnCM0se3nkRBO2r+oVqpEl0gAQUjmUYqkMdUefQt+/vnMCv4dYdtvXbOJhxib7rsTqvDxr16YWWg8QkL9wSHmvrpI= ; Message-ID: <001701c6c91d$0768c8a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-22006862614344996 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:36:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C6C8E2.5A60B850" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C6C8E2.5A60B850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, I think that one "enabling technology" for being able to make HOOH "on = the fly" as it were, is something which you have to deal with every day = - but that medical device is not exactly what is needed. In order to make HOOH for transportation use in an 'in situ' process ,at = least two gallons per hour will be needed (for an automobile) and that = will require about 8 pounds of oxygen per hour. The other factor is = efficiency. The reference you gave said that oxygen is three time more = efficient than air in promoting the reaction, if memory serves. Using colloidal metals is definitely the way to go - (Nickel or NiFe or = NiFeMn may be the best choices since they can be kept from clogging up a = zeolite reformer magnetically, but it seems to me that a source for = enriched oxygen will be more practical if that is available in a small = affordable unit. Bubbling air works but it may be too inefficient to use = for higher volumes "on the fly". Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - = and extrapolating from the data - might increase the output of such a = cell enough to make this extra complexity very desirable. Fred has mentioned the portable medical oxygen enrichment products = before - and from a web search, there are apparently only two companies = making these, but they are basically high-cost medical devices and with = way too-low of an output for making HOOH 'in situ' for an automobile. A = large percentage of the cost is going to liability insurance, as with = all medical devices. Magnetic enrichment of O2 from air (perhaps enhanced by a low voltage = bias) seems to be the way to go - but is that "enabling technology" (in = a higher volume and nonmedical device ) on the horizon ? Jones Other Possibilities using colloidal Zinc. Zinc Peroxide: ZnO2.1/2 H2O http://www.jxyongtai.com/pages/product/product18en.htm "Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide = produced by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen = peroxide.=20 Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in water, = and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide.=20 It decomposes at 150=B0C and releases oxygen." Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust": = http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=3D1220&head=3DGalvanising%2B-%2= BWhite%2BRust%2BPrevention%2Band%2BCure "One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised coatings of = all kinds is 'white rust' or 'white storage stain'. It is manifested as = a bulky, white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the = galvanised coating under certain specific conditions." "Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved salts or minerals and zinc = will react quickly with pure water to form zinc hydroxide, a bulky white = and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly galvanised steel is = exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an oxygen = deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc = and progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in = which white rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested = together, tightly packed, or when water can penetrate between the items = and remain for extended periods." Fred =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C6C8E2.5A60B850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
I think that one "enabling technology" = for being=20 able to make HOOH "on the fly" as it were, is something which you have = to deal=20 with every day - but that medical device is not exactly what is=20 needed.
 
In order to make HOOH for transportation use in = an 'in=20 situ' process ,at least two gallons per hour will be needed (for an=20 automobile) and that will require about 8 pounds of oxygen per = hour. The=20 other factor is efficiency. The reference you gave said that oxygen is = three=20 time more efficient than air in promoting the reaction, if memory=20 serves.
 
Using colloidal metals is definitely the way to = go -=20 (Nickel or NiFe or NiFeMn may be the best choices since they can be kept = from=20 clogging up a zeolite reformer magnetically, but it seems to me = that a=20 source for enriched oxygen will be more practical if that is available = in a=20 small affordable unit. Bubbling air works = but it=20 may be too inefficient to use for higher volumes "on the fly". Using air = which=20 is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from the data - might increase = the=20 output of such a cell enough to make this extra complexity very=20 desirable.
 
Fred has mentioned the portable medical oxygen = enrichment=20 products before - and from a web search, there are apparently only two = companies=20 making these, but they are basically high-cost medical devices and with = way=20 too-low of an output for making HOOH 'in situ' for an automobile. A = large=20 percentage of the cost is going to liability insurance, as with all = medical=20 devices.
 
Magnetic enrichment of O2 from air (perhaps = enhanced=20 by a low voltage bias) seems to be the way to go - but is that "enabling = technology" (in a higher volume and nonmedical device ) on the horizon=20 ?
 
Jones
 

Other Possibilities using colloidal Zinc.
 
Zinc Peroxide:  ZnO2.1/2 H2O
 
http://ww= w.jxyongtai.com/pages/product/product18en.htm
 
"Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide = produced=20 by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen peroxide. =
Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in = water,=20 and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide.
It decomposes at 150=B0C and releases oxygen."
 
Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust":
 
http://www.azom.com/= details.asp?ArticleID=3D1220&head=3DGalvanising%2B-%2BWhite%2BRust%2B= Prevention%2Band%2BCure
 
"One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised = coatings of all=20 kinds is =91white rust=92 or =91white storage stain=92. It is = manifested as a bulky,=20 white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the = galvanised=20 coating under certain specific conditions."
 
"Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved = salts or=20 minerals and zinc will react quickly with pure water to form zinc = hydroxide, a=20 bulky white and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly = galvanised=20 steel is exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an = oxygen=20 deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc = and=20 progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in which = white=20 rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested together, = tightly=20 packed, or when water can penetrate between the items and remain for = extended=20 periods."
 
 
Fred
 

 

 

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C6C8E2.5A60B850-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 08:24:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QFO7Cp002340; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:24:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QFO5mC002321; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:24:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:24:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Voq4aF5QlWWmog5izxIsJPi1Jy1vebKGt68vFDcPbB7DpRV2GbptnLGJxCsPVQL7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068626152343229 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:23:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94082c4236856febb0923043de39bd34a63350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: BTW, double spacing behind the Re; seems to alleviate the subject wipe-out problem) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: fjsparber earthlink.net;vortex-l Sent: 8/26/2006 8:43:56 AM Subject: [Vo]: Fred, I think that one "enabling technology" for being able to make HOOH "on the fly" as it were, is something which you have to deal with every day - but that medical device is not exactly what is needed. FS, seems that the medical/antiseptic compounds are the most promising for the OH production from surface water-splitting. In order to make HOOH for transportation use in an 'in situ' process ,at least two gallons per hour will be needed (for an automobile) and that will require about 8 pounds of oxygen per hour. The other factor is efficiency. The reference you gave said that oxygen is three time more efficient than air in promoting the reaction, if memory serves. FS. probably so. Using colloidal metals is definitely the way to go - (Nickel or NiFe or NiFeMn may be the best choices since they can be kept from clogging up a zeolite reformer magnetically, but it seems to me that a source for enriched oxygen will be more practical if that is available in a small affordable unit. Bubbling air works but it may be too inefficient to use for higher volumes "on the fly". Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from the data - might increase the output of such a cell enough to make this extra complexity very desirable. FS. You're guessing Jones. Fred has mentioned the portable medical oxygen enrichment products before - and from a web search, there are apparently only two companies making these, but they are basically high-cost medical devices and with way too-low of an output for making HOOH 'in situ' for an automobile. A large percentage of the cost is going to liability insurance, as with all medical devices. FS. Not so. The medical PSA (Pressure Swing Adsorpion) O2-N2 separation devices are derived from tons per day industrial units developed by (Union Carbide I think?) in the 1960s. Magnetic enrichment of O2 from air (perhaps enhanced by a low voltage bias) seems to be the way to go - but is that "enabling technology" (in a higher volume and nonmedical device ) on the horizon ? FS. Of Course. Google up PSA technology. :-) Fred Jones Other Possibilities using colloidal Zinc. Zinc Peroxide: ZnO2.1/2 H2O http://www.jxyongtai.com/pages/product/product18en.htm "Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide produced by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen peroxide. Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in water, and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide. It decomposes at 150°C and releases oxygen." Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust": http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1220&head=Galvanising%2B-%2BWhite%2BRust%2BPrevention%2Band%2BCure "One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised coatings of all kinds is ‘white rust’ or ‘white storage stain’. It is manifested as a bulky, white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the galvanised coating under certain specific conditions." "Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved salts or minerals and zinc will react quickly with pure water to form zinc hydroxide, a bulky white and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly galvanised steel is exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an oxygen deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc and progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in which white rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested together, tightly packed, or when water can penetrate between the items and remain for extended periods." Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote:   BTW, double spacing behind  the Re; seems to alleviate the subject wipe-out problem)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 8/26/2006 8:43:56 AM
Subject: [Vo]:

Fred,
 
I think that one "enabling technology" for being able to make HOOH "on the fly" as it were, is something which you have to deal with every day - but that medical device is not exactly what is needed.
 
FS, seems that the medical/antiseptic compounds are the most promising for
the OH production from surface water-splitting.
 
In order to make HOOH for transportation use in an 'in situ' process ,at least two gallons per hour will be needed (for an automobile) and that will require about 8 pounds of oxygen per hour. The other factor is efficiency. The reference you gave said that oxygen is three time more efficient than air in promoting the reaction, if memory serves.
 
FS. probably so.
 
Using colloidal metals is definitely the way to go - (Nickel or NiFe or NiFeMn may be the best choices since they can be kept from clogging up a zeolite reformer magnetically, but it seems to me that a source for enriched oxygen will be more practical if that is available in a small affordable unit. Bubbling air works but it may be too inefficient to use for higher volumes "on the fly". Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from the data - might increase the output of such a cell enough to make this extra complexity very desirable.
 
FS. You're guessing Jones.
 
Fred has mentioned the portable medical oxygen enrichment products before - and from a web search, there are apparently only two companies making these, but they are basically high-cost medical devices and with way too-low of an output for making HOOH 'in situ' for an automobile. A large percentage of the cost is going to liability insurance, as with all medical devices.
 
FS. Not so. The medical PSA (Pressure Swing Adsorpion) O2-N2 separation devices are derived
from tons per day industrial units developed by (Union Carbide I think?) in the 1960s.
 
Magnetic enrichment of O2 from air (perhaps enhanced by a low voltage bias) seems to be the way to go - but is that "enabling technology" (in a higher volume and nonmedical device ) on the horizon ?
 
FS. Of Course. Google up PSA technology.  :-)
 
Fred
 
Jones
 

Other Possibilities using colloidal Zinc.
 
Zinc Peroxide:  ZnO2.1/2 H2O
 
 
"Zinc peroxide is an odorless white or yellowish solid peroxide produced by adding zinc oxide or hydroxide to a solution of hydrogen peroxide.
Zinc peroxide is a temperature stable solid. It is insoluble in water, and dissolves in acids, forming hydrogen peroxide.
It decomposes at 150°C and releases oxygen."
 
Zinc Hydroxide "White Rust":
 
 
"One of the commonly encountered problems with galvanised coatings of all kinds is ‘white rust’ or ‘white storage stain’. It is manifested as a bulky, white, powdery deposit that forms rapidly on the surface of the galvanised coating under certain specific conditions."
 
"Pure water (H2O) contains no dissolved salts or minerals and zinc will react quickly with pure water to form zinc hydroxide, a bulky white and relatively unstable oxide of zinc. Where freshly galvanised steel is exposed to pure water (rain, dew or condensation), in an oxygen deficient environment, the water will continue to react with the zinc and progressively consume the coating. The most common condition in which white rust occurs is with galvanised products that are nested together, tightly packed, or when water can penetrate between the items and remain for extended periods."
 
 
Fred
 

 

 

 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 08:49:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QFnNuJ015149; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:49:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QFnKFW015111; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:49:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Khxx/NAAbrtPhJfNisv1TNJ5Vb7wCfj3LDRukdirCWqnVjjTpDzHCS5lCS6pkdsSSicaEPpEfzxAkRZEAipVVmKplcVECa5UTDpzY/+zCmJgSTWK+bzNRuAFJR5+rDDXmPJkhEvTVi8oyUajL4HrzIfe0UVV8/QPOovwRA5gu70= ; Message-ID: <04d101c6c927$2f10de60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-220068626152343229 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:49:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Status: O X-Status: Fred, > BTW, double spacing behind the Re; seems to alleviate the > subject wipe-out problem ... been wondering about that. Thanks. >> Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from >> the data - might increase the output of such a cell enough to >> make this extra complexity very desirable. > FS. You're guessing Jones. ... and that is something new ? > FS. Not so. The medical PSA (Pressure Swing Adsorpion) O2-N2 > separation devices are derived from tons per day industrial units developed by (Union Carbide I think?) in the 1960s. Yes but it is energy intensive - and perhaps outdated technology. Magnetic enrichment of O2 from air (perhaps enhanced by a low voltage bias) seems to be the way to go - but is that "enabling technology" (in a higher volume and nonmedical device ) on the horizon ? FS. Of Course. Google up PSA technology. :-) BTDT Can't find anything in PSA which looks promising for this application. Howver there are some novel apporeaaches like in United States Patent 6106963 (Fuel Cell) >From the Abstract: ... supplies air whose oxygen enrichment unit is a magnetic oxygen enrichment device that effects oxygen enrichment utilizing the fact that the oxygen molecule is paramagnetic and when magnetized migrates toward a magnetic pole side. Specifically, a magnetic field is generated inside the oxygen enrichment unit by an electromagnet ... OK. Using the magentic moment of oxygen, as well as its electron affinity - both of which are substatially different from nitrogen, has been know for years to be possible. There are many patents which mention it but so far I've not been able to find a cross comparion with PSA - but there are references to PSA being energy intensive, relative to output. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 09:17:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QGHOb0028600; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:17:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QGHLM9028545; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:17:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:17:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=B1KREt9oXkqbKzAcrMAYIAQYq+GwIVuHns0UVmoo2fSYZs5sF2+2GQWYGdtm97Ra; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068626161652926 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:16:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409a7ae201aea8c342de8e35b7120bd756350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.96 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > Fred, > > > BTW, double spacing behind the Re; seems to alleviate the > > subject wipe-out problem > > ... been wondering about that. Thanks. > > >> Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from > >> the data - might increase the output of such a cell enough to > >> make this extra complexity very desirable. > > > FS. Of Course. Google up PSA technology. :-) > > BTDT Can't find anything in PSA which looks promising for this > application. > Then look at in use Nitrogen Separation Membrane Technology, like US 5582030. Plug this number into TERM 1 of http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html and hit "Search" and it will bring up the later patents that reference it, and go. > However there are some novel approaches like in United States > Patent 6106963 (Fuel Cell) > Why ? Go with proven technology instead of trying to invent-re-invent something that will take decades to become affordable. > > From the Abstract: ... supplies air whose oxygen enrichment unit > is a magnetic oxygen enrichment device that effects oxygen > enrichment utilizing the fact that the oxygen molecule is > paramagnetic and when magnetized migrates toward a magnetic pole > side. Specifically, a magnetic field is generated inside the > oxygen enrichment unit by an electromagnet ... > Seems that the vortex Psyche is permanently "magnetically oriented" even if there is a problem in differentiating between their donkey and a post-hole, about it :-) Fred > > OK. Using the magnetic moment of oxygen, as well as its electron > affinity - both of which are substantially different from nitrogen, > has been know for years to be possible. There are many patents > which mention it but so far I've not been able to find a cross > comparison with PISA - but there are references to PISA being energy > intensive, relative to output. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 09:34:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QGXoYB007193; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:33:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QGXlcr007166; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:33:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:33:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=TRjbbKHv1F0Sno8IS5IoC4LhoCLuIJ+Cn9LN0VBpHJIMZG0qQmurMXy8Ux3pGWMjSAyPqxE7/no7Va9R8jMJx7CXgF3uAUdIREDzjnseIwl0hzXrvB9gmLjetSkvpjMxqUCMJyrQIpfb4MqzLKToT/kKNyo71sEo3Yh1zEvD044= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:33:45 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7QGXiIV007136 Resent-Message-ID: <88rgLD.A.xvB.qfH8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aether: It's Baaack Status: O X-Status: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19125664.000-ether-returns-in-a-bid-to-oust-dark-matter.html http://tinyurl.com/ekznw (Article is by subscription only. URL is a preview; however, I am posting the entire article for list use only.) Public release date: 23-Aug-2006 Contact: Claire Bowles claire.bowles rbi.co.uk 44-207-611-1210 New Scientist Ether returns to oust dark matter >From his office window, Glenn Starkman can see the site where Albert Michelson and Edward Morley carried out their famous 1887 experiment that ruled out the presence of an all-pervading "aether" in space, setting the stage for Einstein's special theory of relativity. So it seems ironic that Starkman, who is at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, is now proposing a theory that would bring ether back into the reckoning. While this would defy Einstein, Starkman's ether would do away with the need for dark matter. Nineteenth-century physicists believed that just as sound waves move through air, light waves must move through an all-pervading physical substance, which they called luminiferous ("light- bearing") ether. However, the Michelson-Morley experiment failed to find any signs of ether, and 18 years after that, Einstein's special relativity argued that light propagates through a vacuum. The idea of ether was abandoned – but not discarded altogether, it seems. Starkman and colleagues Tom Zlosnik and Pedro Ferreira of the University of Oxford are now reincarnating the ether in a new form to solve the puzzle of dark matter, the mysterious substance that was proposed to explain why galaxies seem to contain much more mass than can be accounted for by visible matter. They posit an ether that is a field, rather than a substance, and which pervades space- time. "If you removed everything else in the universe, the ether would still be there," says Zlosnik. This ether field isn't to do with light, but rather is something that boosts the gravitational pull of stars and galaxies, making them seem heavier, says Starkman. It does this by increasing the flexibility of space-time itself . "We usually imagine space-time as a rubber sheet that's warped by a massive object," says Starkman. "The ether makes that rubber sheet more bendable in parts, so matter can seem to have a much bigger gravitational effect than you would expect from its weight." The team's calculations show that this ether-induced gravity boost would explain the observed high velocities of stars in galaxies, currently attributed to the presence of dark matter. This is not the first time that physicists have suggested modifying gravity to do away with this unseen dark matter. The idea was originally proposed by Mordehai Milgrom while at Princeton University in the 1980s. He suggested that the inverse-square law of gravity only applies where the acceleration caused by the field is above a certain threshold, say a0. Below that value, the field dissipates more slowly, explaining the observed extra gravity. "It wasn't really a theory, it was a guess," says cosmologist Sean Carroll at the University of Chicago in Illinois. Then in 2004 this idea of modified Newtonian dynamics (MOND) was reconciled with general relativity by Jacob Bekenstein at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Israel (New Scientist, 22 January 2005, p 10), making MOND a genuine contender in the eyes of some physicists. Bekenstein's work was brilliant, but fiendishly complicated, using many different and arbitrary fields and parameters," says Ferreira. "We felt that something so complicated couldn't be the final theory. Now Starkman's team has reproduced Bekenstein's results using just one field - the new ether (www.arxiv.org/astro-ph/ 0607411). Even more tantalisingly, the calculations reveal a close relationship between the threshold acceleration a0 - which depends on the ether - and the rate at which the universe's expansion is accelerating. Astronomers have attributed this acceleration to something called dark energy, so in a sense the ether is related to this entity. That they have found this connection is a truly profound thing, says Bekenstein. The team is now investigating how the ether might cause the universe's expansion to speed up. Andreas Albrecht, a cosmologist at the University of Calfornia, Davis, believes that this ether model is worth investigating further. "We've hit some really profound problems with cosmology Ð with dark matter and dark energy," he says. "That tells us we have to rethink fundamental physics and try something new." Both Bekenstein and Albrecht say Starkman's team must now carefully check whether the ether theory fits with the motions of planets within our solar system, which are known to a high degree of accuracy, and also explain what exactly this ether is. Ferreira agrees: "The onus is definitely on us to pin this theory down so it doesn't look like yet another fantastical explanation," he says. However, physicists may be reluctant to resurrect any kind of ether because it contradicts special relativity by forming an absolute frame of reference . "Interestingly, this controversial aspect should make it easy to test for experimentally," says Carroll. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 10:04:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QH4jhL024210; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:04:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QH4hLT024194; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:04:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:04:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JqScqRSXY1YdkrrjPEAqnMbJtAuFrOhXS0WyYSuJhOa+G1FJ//UXA6ItK4/SDAGW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006862617413450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:04:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d72cf030d4224b3e1996764461329d41350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.36 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 68 hits by copy and pasting Monsanto patent 4,264,338 into Term 1 of http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html And hitting "Search". Frederick Sparber > To: ; Jones Beene > Date: 8/26/2006 10:18:02 AM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Colloidal Silver or Nickel, Waterfuel "Bubbulator" > > Jones Beene wrote. > > > > Fred, > > > > > BTW, double spacing behind the Re; seems to alleviate the > > > subject wipe-out problem > > > > ... been wondering about that. Thanks. > > > > >> Using air which is enriched to 80% O2 - and extrapolating from > > >> the data - might increase the output of such a cell enough to > > >> make this extra complexity very desirable. > > > > > > FS. Of Course. Google up PSA technology. :-) > > > > BTDT Can't find anything in PSA which looks promising for this > > application. > > > Then look at in use Nitrogen Separation Membrane Technology, like > US 5582030. Plug this number into TERM 1 of > http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html > > and hit "Search" and it will bring up the later patents that reference it, > and go. > > > However there are some novel approaches like in United States > > Patent 6106963 (Fuel Cell) > > > Why ? Go with proven technology instead of trying to invent-re-invent > something > that will take decades to become affordable. > > > > From the Abstract: ... supplies air whose oxygen enrichment unit > > is a magnetic oxygen enrichment device that effects oxygen > > enrichment utilizing the fact that the oxygen molecule is > > paramagnetic and when magnetized migrates toward a magnetic pole > > side. Specifically, a magnetic field is generated inside the > > oxygen enrichment unit by an electromagnet ... > > > Seems that the vortex Psyche is permanently "magnetically oriented" > even if there is a problem in differentiating between their donkey and a > post-hole, > about it :-) > > Fred > > > > OK. Using the magnetic moment of oxygen, as well as its electron > > affinity - both of which are substantially different from nitrogen, > > has been know for years to be possible. There are many patents > > which mention it but so far I've not been able to find a cross > > comparison with PISA - but there are references to PISA being energy > > intensive, relative to output. > > > > Jones > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 10:43:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QHh3Lr009319; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:43:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QHh2PS009263; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:43:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:43:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=a/IY9RgvMfG2zuxvUOAWMe87/K97Z/ik1NtTOLDtlN1muQzDdNA8SL5EzFTTAFB5ka+/HPECscGc0zOC7jmP0lQgwx5EJvHI48H0d/heuN9GUqxSpKB382zzwKdot+aI+5gpsRgcTuNfvFomkCfvHtSfaF8+imiKDt9ld7u8cv4= ; Message-ID: <050301c6c937$10c3a7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:42:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A SODden Thought.... Status: O X-Status: Ah... the Saturday matinee... for grown-ups who never did : >From the "what is the meaning of 'is' " i.e. department (semantics/humor)... ... one could make the argument that the oxygen molecule doesn't support combustion ! OK, OK ... maybe it would take a double-talker of the caliber of Bill C. to make that argument stand, but it is true that ROS, or reactive oxygen species, is what technically can support combustion. Reactive oxygen species (ROS) include oxygen ions, free radicals and peroxides and metastable intermediates. They are highly reactive due to the presence of unpaired valence shell electrons but are easily formed from the oxygen content of air, once the process is started (ignition), even in a small zone. Probably the most familiar free-radical reaction is combustion, of course, but in every cell in your body, combustion is taking place now - and in every single case HOOH is present. In order for combustion to occur at all, the relatively strong O=O double bond must be broken to form ROS - the oxygen free-radical(s). Oxygen itself is a di-radical since it has two unpaired electrons in the outer orbitals, but that "natural reactivity" is limited and misleading - since these electrons have parallel spins. BTW this feature of O2 is what gives oxygen a fairly strong magnetic moment - which is most unusual. Reactive oxygen species - ROS - include superoxides, such as hydrogen peroxide, and the hydroxyl radical which is rare in a singlet state simply because it is so reactive that it will react with itself to form HOOH. Now we get to SOD, which is the culprit of the attempted pun in the subject line. Actually, I'm tempted to call it a double pun - in the context of water fuel, but if you have to explain it to that degree - it is truly only "attempted". Superoxide dismutase (SOD) is a biological necessity and catalyst for cellular energy - and often contains manganese (MnSOD). When superoxide dismutase comes in contact with a metastable superoxide, it reacts and forms the stable molecule --> hydrogen peroxide. OU - Plain and simple - No-Zero-Nada outside energy is required. This is nature's form of free-energy, and it is NU but not new. That is why Fred and a few others are so interested and enthusiastic about the application of this concept to automotive use - and in building on the features of metal colloids, which are essentially SODs when oxygen is present with water. Any way you cut it, or "is" it ... it is "free energy." But I am struck by the fact that the best (perhaps 'only' feasible) answer to solving our energy crisis in the near term (without the breakthrough in magnetics or LENR or whatever) may have been in every cell in our bodies but locked-up in the secrets of cellular metabolism - all along. So perhaps this effort this falls into the department of "nothing new under the sun"... or rediscovering the obvious. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 13:38:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QKcPN3027050; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:38:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QKcM5N027019; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:38:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:38:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > This is very sad. I do not understand the mindset of inventors who do > this kind of thing, and say, ". . . until this thing is validated by > science we won't be doing anything commercial with it . . ." That is > nonsense. Inventors often say this, but they are wrong, and they have > missed the point. Or three points: But steorn has all the earmarks of a free-energy scam. Suppose the whole thing is dishonest. In that case their mindset makes perfect sense. Suppose they have nothing, but they want the investment dollars to flood in. They certainly can't demonstrate their device openly (such as by sending out replicas for independant testing. Or by just SELLING their devices.) If it's a scam, then they're going about it in the same way which has worked time and again. They must never take a simple, honest, up-front approach. They must always keep us guessing. (They cannot do otherwise!) We can wait forever yet never see any evidence that's simple, solid, and trustworthy. How many successful Dennis Lees does it take before lots other people follow in Lees footsteps? And reap his same rewards? And it's SO EASY to show that your'e not a scammer. Just build a bunch of FE devices. Then sell them. But maybe Jed is right, and these people are just incompetent. I vote for fraud, since incompetence usually has different earmarks. Here's the scam-detector list I put up on my site: Free Energy links, scams http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 13:42:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QKg7r3029285; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:42:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QKg58O029267; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:42:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: > They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company. > > So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one. No, it's the opposite of expensive. If it's a joke, it's a VERY profitable one. I say, follow the money. If they're making money off investors, yet their product is totally unproven as well as being outside of current science... then it could be a scam. In fact, I'd say that it's almost certainly a scam. Analogy: if someone is selling extremely expensive treasure maps, then you can be almost certain that it's a scam. Why? Because the "treasure map scam" is very old, and very well known, even though real treasure does exist. Treasure map scams are aimed at ignorant people who haven't heard of them before. And even though FE energy sources could easily be real, the formula for FE scam is still the same: to take investor's money without having proved your claims. > Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect, > though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be > getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust > this statement) Not a hoax. With that much money involved, "hoax" wouldn't be what's going on. > Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke > but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to > hoax this, a very expensive joke. The third option is scam. And it's no suicide. They can be like Joe Newman or Dennis Lee or Meyer, and just keep their unproved claims going forever, and keep taking investors dollars forever. After all, if they never produce a device, they can do as all past scammers have done: blame the Oil Companies, or the CIA, or the MIBs. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 13:44:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QKi2n0032129; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:44:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QKi0ql032093; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:44:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:44:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:44:00 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Steven Krivit wrote: > contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that > McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions - within > the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the mp3 posted > in a few days. Um... Suppose for a moment that it's a scam. In that case, the scammers will be skilled in running a con game, and the "con" in con game is "confidence." Are you sure that you could detect a con artist by talking to him? Could ANY of us could tell a con man from an honest person? I doubt it. In fact, if con men are any good, they'll seem exactly like honest people. They certainly won't act anything like the con artists in the movies! (If they did, they'd have to change jobs, or starve.) Here's a thought: normal people are dishonest, since it comes with being a fallible human. So, if con artists have spent years developing an airtight facade of trustworthyness and honesty, then it might become possible to detect a scammer. The scammer will seem far more trustworthy than any normal human being. Probably you'll just love the scammer, and want to invest your money in his company without question. And also hope he'll become your best friend, and marry your daughter. These are NOT the feelings inspired by the people you meet every day. They're created by hard won con-artist skills, and maybe they're detectable, once we know what to look for. PS If you can detect them, then you'll also know who to AVOID voting for in any election. Firm handshake, looks you in the eye, instantly wins your confidence? Trained con man. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 13:49:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QKnRg6003263; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:49:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QKnIKb003192; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:49:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: > I believe they have done what they claim. Why? It's a bad idea to adopt "beliefs." If you must do it, do it because you've seen some very solid evidence. Gut feelings can be a good guide, but they're never 100% trustworthy. Gut feelings become a big liability when dealing with scammers who have learned how to manipulate the gut feelings of others. Whenever a scam is a possibility, it's time to stop listening to gut feelings, and start looking for evidence which has no chance of being manipulated or being simple lies. > They appear to be honest and capable. Appearances are facades, by definition. If they're secretly dishonesty, they'd BETTER appear to be honest and capable. Did they appear normally honest and capable? Or did they appear VERY honest and VERY capable, more so than yourself? If they appeared to be normal members of the public like you or I, far fewer people would want to invest. > Nothing rings false to me. BINGO. Don't listen to what they say, look at what they do. If they take investor's money without first proving their claims, that means big money is probably involved. If someone is selling treasure maps, don't buy one. If someone is taking investors for unproven FE devices, don't put your money in. Of course we shouldn't go overboard and BELIEVE that they are con men. Keep your hand firmly on your wallet, and start watching. Start keeping score, and see how many features of known con games they possess. Heh. Fancy, highly polished websites are almost a dead giveaway. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:15:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLEih7016086; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:14:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLEfMT016059; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:14:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:14:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2006 21:14:38.0073 (UTC) FILETIME=[A34BD690:01C6C954] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: William Beaty >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:49:13 -0700 (PDT) > >On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: > > > I believe they have done what they claim. > >Why? Because we have seen OU in our own labs repeatedly since 2004. I hope to have independent laboratory confirmation of some of our devices by the end of next month. Our engineers have also examined what we can see of their work and it appears to them to be genuine. > >It's a bad idea to adopt "beliefs." If you must do it, do it because >you've seen some very solid evidence. Gut feelings can be a good guide, >but they're never 100% trustworthy. Gut feelings become a big liability >when dealing with scammers who have learned how to manipulate the gut >feelings of others. Whenever a scam is a possibility, it's time to stop >listening to gut feelings, and start looking for evidence which has no >chance of being manipulated or being simple lies. > > > They appear to be honest and capable. I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have said they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected scientists have reported their findings. > >Appearances are facades, by definition. If they're secretly >dishonesty, they'd BETTER appear to be honest and capable. > >Did they appear normally honest and capable? Or did they appear VERY >honest and VERY capable, more so than yourself? If they appeared to be >normal members of the public like you or I, far fewer people would want to >invest. > > > > Nothing rings false to me. > > >BINGO. > > >Don't listen to what they say, look at what they do. If they take >investor's money without first proving their claims, that means big money >is probably involved. If someone is selling treasure maps, don't buy one. >If someone is taking investors for unproven FE devices, don't put your >money in. Of course we shouldn't go overboard and BELIEVE that they are >con men. Keep your hand firmly on your wallet, and start watching. >Start keeping score, and see how many features of known con games they >possess. > >Heh. Fancy, highly polished websites are almost a dead giveaway. > >See my comment above regarding a refusal to accept investment until the >tests are over. The experience of LENR suggests that a path such as they have taken may prove to be an excellent way to move a radically new technology rapidly toward production. Our own choice has been to focus on desktop Demonstration Devices that will light a few LEDs and turn a small fan. These will be self-sustaining and should be available sometime next year. 1 kW Modules will follow a few months behind. Toys will come along as well. No batteries required. Mark > >(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:17:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLHXf3017833; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:17:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLHT2l017794; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:17:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6c955$04fc8920$5f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: A SODden Thought Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:17:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C92B.1B56AE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C92B.1B56AE00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C92B.1B5834A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C92B.1B5834A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones. Whne I was a kid I couldn't miss the saturday morning movie adventure. = Alas ! Yesterday! But, not to worry because Jones Beene is here to = provide the spark of inspiration together with that intrinsic sense of = humor so vital to life < grin> For those odd Texans that never attended A&M engineering school, what = Jones means is SOD is present in everyday life. We see it in manifest form.. what you say??? RUST. the evidence Dr. = Watson RUST isd the evidence. Just as a hurricane is the evidence of CF. = Some one will harness the energy available, but only and unless that = person believes just as a kid watching a western movie and believed he = would grow up one day and be a cowboy. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C92B.1B5834A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Jones.
 
Whne I was a kid I couldn't miss the saturday morning movie = adventure. Alas=20 ! Yesterday! But, not to worry because Jones Beene is here to provide = the spark=20 of inspiration together with that intrinsic sense of humor so vital to = life <=20 grin>
 
For those odd Texans that never attended A&M engineering = school, what=20 Jones means is  SOD is present in everyday life.
We see it in manifest form.. what you say???  RUST. the = evidence Dr.=20 Watson RUST isd the evidence. Just as a hurricane is the evidence of CF. = Some=20 one will harness the energy available, but only and unless that person = believes=20 just as a kid watching a western movie and believed he would grow up one = day and=20 be a cowboy.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6C92B.1B5834A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C92B.1B56AE00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6c955$0418dfe0$5f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6C92B.1B56AE00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:20:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLJt5k019314; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:19:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLJq0I019277; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qyVMnGEc1tmv5l5iBB39YR2uLYFn3EOypNNtGK+VFurtnonz0W3/Q7cMe2siuGVU; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24876852.1156627145578.JavaMail.root mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:19:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cb8422ee13e0aceb594447022ac96aba630febb85a5f48815350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >But maybe Jed is right, and these people are just incompetent. I vote for >fraud, since incompetence usually has different earmarks. Here's the >scam-detector list I put up on my site: > > Free Energy links, scams > http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html I agree. The Steorn.net thing does fit the scam profile. Sigh . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:27:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLRjgc023316; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:27:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLRhTa023285; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:27:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:27:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:15:49 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea In-reply-to: <20060826022445.99508.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_T6GoxVpIiTnyKIXOZWmLTQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_T6GoxVpIiTnyKIXOZWmLTQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired about?! Harry Christopher Arnold wrote: Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS. Chris Arnold --Boundary_(ID_T6GoxVpIiTnyKIXOZWmLTQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall
were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired about?!

Harry


Christopher Arnold wrote:

Gents, I cannot take this - any longer.
 

 
Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS.
 

 
Chris Arnold

--Boundary_(ID_T6GoxVpIiTnyKIXOZWmLTQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:42:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLg2nt029933; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:42:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLg0M3029907; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:42:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:42:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=lOWRlYU3+eQBrb0HvJvai8zP6S9fT00SeAsGkYlpXfaKyInwMKnuXvj2YfRIRd4jBeQaal98C8hN+NSjNfo3DUz9p0Sa5YN0g56VeupTMgezYbvQYumNzn6VRZ0DnHmCUUY3tcLUR09hUvPKX1MKjeVcoPau3VyGClQLN8qGl6s= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:41:57 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_200251_18350408.1156628517363" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ------=_Part_200251_18350408.1156628517363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are indicators against this being a scam though, first the fact that they have already patented useful (security) technology, have millions of dollars, investors and if they are shown as pulling off a scam they will be totally sunk.(scammers would be unlikely to put so much on the line, well not on the line but more correctly sacrificed) Also they are not asking for any investment this side of verification by a Jury of 12 so they would need to somehow fool or rig the jury unless they want to be asking for investment after the jury of 12 have decleared it doesn't work. Given these facts while I think the 'scientific verification' route is foolish I don't think scam really adds up. On 8/27/06, William Beaty wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > This is very sad. I do not understand the mindset of inventors who do > > this kind of thing, and say, ". . . until this thing is validated by > > science we won't be doing anything commercial with it . . ." That is > > nonsense. Inventors often say this, but they are wrong, and they have > > missed the point. Or three points: > > But steorn has all the earmarks of a free-energy scam. Suppose the whole > thing is dishonest. In that case their mindset makes perfect sense. > > Suppose they have nothing, but they want the investment dollars to flood > in. They certainly can't demonstrate their device openly (such as by > sending out replicas for independant testing. Or by just SELLING their > devices.) If it's a scam, then they're going about it in the same way > which has worked time and again. They must never take a simple, honest, > up-front approach. They must always keep us guessing. (They cannot do > otherwise!) We can wait forever yet never see any evidence that's simple, > solid, and trustworthy. > > How many successful Dennis Lees does it take before lots other people > follow in Lees footsteps? And reap his same rewards? > > And it's SO EASY to show that your'e not a scammer. Just build a bunch of > FE devices. Then sell them. > > But maybe Jed is right, and these people are just incompetent. I vote for > fraud, since incompetence usually has different earmarks. Here's the > scam-detector list I put up on my site: > > Free Energy links, scams > http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > ------=_Part_200251_18350408.1156628517363 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are indicators against this being a scam though, first the fact that they have already patented useful (security) technology, have millions of dollars, investors and if they are shown as pulling off a scam they will be totally sunk.(scammers would be unlikely to put so much on the line, well not on the line but more correctly sacrificed)

Also they are not asking for any investment this side of verification by a Jury of 12 so they would need to somehow fool or rig the jury unless they want to be asking for investment after the jury of 12 have decleared it doesn't work.

Given these facts while I think the 'scientific verification' route is foolish I don't think scam really adds up.


On 8/27/06, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> This is very sad. I do not understand the mindset of inventors who do
> this kind of thing, and say, ". . . until this thing is validated by
> science we won't be doing anything commercial with it . . ." That is
> nonsense. Inventors often say this, but they are wrong, and they have
> missed the point. Or three points:

But steorn has all the earmarks of a free-energy scam.  Suppose the whole
thing is dishonest.  In that case their mindset makes perfect sense.

Suppose they have nothing, but they want the investment dollars to flood
in.  They certainly can't demonstrate their device openly (such as by
sending out replicas for independant testing.  Or by just SELLING their
devices.)  If it's a scam, then they're going about it in the same way
which has worked time and again.  They must never take a simple, honest,
up-front approach.  They must always keep us guessing.  (They cannot do
otherwise!)  We can wait forever yet never see any evidence that's simple,
solid, and trustworthy.

How many successful Dennis Lees does it take before lots other people
follow in Lees footsteps?  And reap his same rewards?

And it's SO EASY to show that your'e not a scammer.  Just build a bunch of
FE devices.  Then sell them.

But maybe Jed is right, and these people are just incompetent.  I vote for
fraud, since incompetence usually has different earmarks.  Here's the
scam-detector list I put up on my site:

   Free Energy links, scams
   http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


------=_Part_200251_18350408.1156628517363-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 14:51:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QLpcuZ001875; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:51:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QLpago001835; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:51:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:51:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:51:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7QLpUoK001778 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Goldes" To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:14 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm ... > I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have said > they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected scientists have > reported their findings. 12 selected scientists, fine, but selected by whom? Michel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 15:04:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QM4NfG007906; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:04:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QM4LjB007885; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:04:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:04:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=T3CbGe3yNQwPuYmAvj3rm151L6ca+jDTupcLUIcGdiQGzIpEJ59+WzI0tmsh8oqKyQ+Vuwx1r3YAtrcwAaepZfGWWsFqhxJ3DTLfS2DYImuOuULSC1K45iHIeEEu9bVX3hh4f+I8NUjDsx6mWzIhhjrSvJg7J7WAiRpuTnlzL+k= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:04:19 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2786 scientists express interest in Steorn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_200375_4855867.1156629859220" References: Resent-Message-ID: <_0gGDD.A.D7B.lVM8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_200375_4855867.1156629859220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But the investors they already have were gained before this announcement (probably in large part for their security inventions), and they have said that they won't take on any investors until after the jury gives their answer, and looking for investors after you have failed the tests is a pretty bad idea. Furthermore even if you believe they have found some setup that they know is not OU but appears to be and should fool 12 sceptical scientists one could ask why they would need investment money (being that they are not manufacturing it) to do the next thing if they are getting money from licencing this? (unless that's the scam ;) I suppose the only thing that does make sense is that the scam has already happened before the Ad in the economist, this is just an attempt to appease the current investors, but wouldn't a plane trip to some island have been a better idea? (And still what of the technology they have already developed) Please explain how you envision this scam working, yes scam was my gut reaction too but I don't think it's a valid one. On 8/27/06, William Beaty wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: > > > They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this > company. > > > > So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one. > > No, it's the opposite of expensive. If it's a joke, it's a VERY > profitable one. > > I say, follow the money. If they're making money off investors, yet their > product is totally unproven as well as being outside of current science... > then it could be a scam. In fact, I'd say that it's almost certainly a > scam. > > Analogy: if someone is selling extremely expensive treasure maps, then > you can be almost certain that it's a scam. Why? Because the "treasure > map scam" is very old, and very well known, even though real treasure does > exist. Treasure map scams are aimed at ignorant people who haven't heard > of them before. > > And even though FE energy sources could easily be real, the formula for FE > scam is still the same: to take investor's money without having proved > your claims. > > > Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the > effect, > > though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to > be > > getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust > > this statement) > > Not a hoax. With that much money involved, "hoax" wouldn't be what's > going on. > > > > Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a > hoax/joke > > but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide > to > > hoax this, a very expensive joke. > > The third option is scam. And it's no suicide. They can be like Joe > Newman or Dennis Lee or Meyer, and just keep their unproved claims going > forever, and keep taking investors dollars forever. After all, if they > never produce a device, they can do as all past scammers have done: blame > the Oil Companies, or the CIA, or the MIBs. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > ------=_Part_200375_4855867.1156629859220 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But the investors they already have were gained before this announcement (probably in large part for their security inventions), and they have said that they won't take on any investors until after the jury gives their answer, and looking for investors after you have failed the tests is a pretty bad idea.

Furthermore even if you believe they have found some setup that they know is not OU but appears to be and should fool 12 sceptical scientists one could ask why they would need investment money (being that they are not manufacturing it) to do the next thing if they are getting money from licencing this? (unless that's the scam ;)

I suppose the only thing that does make sense is that the scam has already happened before the Ad in the economist, this is just an attempt to appease the current investors, but wouldn't a plane trip to some island have been a better idea? (And still what of the technology they have already developed)

Please explain how you envision this scam working, yes scam was my gut reaction too but I don't think it's a valid one.

On 8/27/06, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote:

> They also have investors who have put millions of Dollars into this company.
>
> So they are real and if it's a joke it's a very expensive one.

No, it's the opposite of expensive.  If it's a joke, it's a VERY
profitable one.

I say, follow the money.  If they're making money off investors, yet their
product is totally unproven as well as being outside of current science...
then it could be a scam.   In fact, I'd say that it's almost certainly a
scam.

Analogy:  if someone is selling extremely expensive treasure maps, then
you can be almost certain that it's a scam.  Why?  Because the "treasure
map scam" is very old, and very well known, even though real treasure does
exist.  Treasure map scams are aimed at ignorant people who haven't heard
of them before.

And even though FE energy sources could easily be real, the formula for FE
scam is still the same: to take investor's money without having proved
your claims.

> Also they claim to have many scientists verify the reality of the effect,
> though it's true we must take Steorn's word on this their word seems to be
> getting better and better every moment. (unless it's a hoax we can trust
> this statement)

Not a hoax.  With that much money involved, "hoax" wouldn't be what's
going on.


> Being that they can't be mistaken the only thing remaining is a hoax/joke
> but with the money and technology this company has it would be suicide to
> hoax this, a very expensive joke.

The third option is scam.  And it's no suicide.  They can be like Joe
Newman or Dennis Lee or Meyer, and just keep their unproved claims going
forever, and keep taking investors dollars forever.  After all, if they
never produce a device, they can do as all past scammers have done: blame
the Oil Companies, or the CIA, or the MIBs.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


------=_Part_200375_4855867.1156629859220-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 15:06:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QM5oMp008825; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:05:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QM5lD0008799; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:05:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:05:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:05:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <87h1f2dr4r3o89dpqe9euups5m1m5fcloo 4ax.com> References: <20060826022445.99508.qmail web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:05:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7QM5gKx008758 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:15:49 -0500: Hi, [snip] I think both are correct. I have no doubt that jewelers do try to keep their clocks showing the same time. However I think that a degree of self-synchronization also occurs, for the reason stated in my previous email, particularly for clocks that have a heavy movement and consequent strong vibrations. >Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall >were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired >about?! > >Harry > > >Christopher Arnold wrote: > >Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. > > > >Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes >his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self >synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the >same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling >diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the >majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not >conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune >are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and >exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 15:33:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QMXQtl022633; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:33:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QMXNd2022601; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:33:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:33:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: A SODden Thought.... Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:33:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1ri1f2ldd7sn4nvdssf6utk522co4c70c9 4ax.com> References: <050301c6c937$10c3a7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <050301c6c937$10c3a7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:33:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7QMXGeU022552 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:42:55 -0700: Hi, If you want to convince us that there is free energy here, then I think you need to show a complete closed cycle of net exothermic chemical reactions. [snip] >Now we get to SOD, which is the culprit of the attempted pun in >the subject line. Actually, I'm tempted to call it a double pun - >in the context of water fuel, but if you have to explain it to >that degree - it is truly only "attempted". > >Superoxide dismutase (SOD) is a biological necessity and catalyst >for cellular energy - and often contains manganese (MnSOD). When >superoxide dismutase comes in contact with a metastable >superoxide, it reacts and forms the stable molecule --> hydrogen >peroxide. > >OU - Plain and simple - No-Zero-Nada outside energy is required. >This is nature's form of free-energy, and it is NU but not new. > >That is why Fred and a few others are so interested and >enthusiastic about the application of this concept to automotive >use - and in building on the features of metal colloids, which are >essentially SODs when oxygen is present with water. Any way you >cut it, or "is" it ... it is "free energy." > >But I am struck by the fact that the best (perhaps 'only' >feasible) answer to solving our energy crisis in the near term >(without the breakthrough in magnetics or LENR or whatever) may >have been in every cell in our bodies but locked-up in the secrets >of cellular metabolism - all along. > >So perhaps this effort this falls into the department of "nothing >new under the sun"... or rediscovering the obvious. > >Jones I'm afraid it's not obvious to me. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 16:23:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QNN31s012639; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:23:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QNN1v7012634; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:23:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2006 23:22:55.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F3B1960:01C6C966] Resent-Message-ID: <9eJQsC.A.PFD.VfN8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Selected by them, of course. They stated they want the most cynical and skepitcal. Of more than 3,500 volunteers to date, McCarthy has said at least 50 seem to be well qualified experimental physicists. When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicates if he will. Time will tell the tale. My guess is they will prove to be on the level. Mark >From: "Michel Jullian" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:51:25 +0200 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Goldes" >To: >Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:14 PM >Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm >... > > I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have >said > > they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected scientists >have > > reported their findings. > >12 selected scientists, fine, but selected by whom? > >Michel > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 16:55:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7QNtN1Z027066; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:55:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7QNtI95027009; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:55:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:55:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:55:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:55:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7QNtDpo026952 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 -0700: Hi, [snip] As has been pointed out before on this forum, an electric generator driven by an electric motor where the ensemble is OU is easy to demonstrate as such. Just let it power itself and self-run. Absent any hidden wires, this is about as convincing a demonstration as is possible. >Selected by them, of course. They stated they want the most cynical and >skepitcal. Of more than 3,500 volunteers to date, McCarthy has said at >least 50 seem to be well qualified experimental physicists. > >When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy >invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicates if >he will. > >Time will tell the tale. My guess is they will prove to be on the level. > >Mark > > > > > > > > >>From: "Michel Jullian" >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>To: >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:51:25 +0200 >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mark Goldes" >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:14 PM >>Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm >>... >> > I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have >>said >> > they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected scientists >>have >> > reported their findings. >> >>12 selected scientists, fine, but selected by whom? >> >>Michel >> > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 17:39:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R0KJXI005418; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:23:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R0JJdq004627; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:19:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:19:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=mQ0i3wd1BQoYkBwGogqD7wdCRB154E3NSm6Pd3vSR4HyqK8hhufNPPdM6p6RD2McR68/+sgR++wcfBSC2g+8sJoPnNln9Yh8cxIddahQiC4c5aEcXNdYOSyjDDV+rV8sCFUqK6Fhtkghc/klSvA2FZ773JXOIK51TzhdP5kJxpw= ; Message-ID: <001c01c6c96e$6ae70b70$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <050301c6c937$10c3a7c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <1ri1f2ldd7sn4nvdssf6utk522co4c70c9@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:19:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A SODden Thought.... Status: O X-Status: Robin > If you want to convince us that there is free energy here, then > I > think you need to show a complete closed cycle of net exothermic > chemical reactions. It's not that simple. And I am not saying that there is a net free-energy exotherm for the complete biological process - obviously there isn't or we would not need to eat. It takes energy to get the reactants together and to remove the CO2, but nevertheless it stands to reason that hydrogen peroxide decomposed into water and oxygen, H2O2 --> H2O + (1/2)O2 releases 26.04 kcal/mole, or 766 cal/g, or 1380 Btu/lb. Then - this is essentially "free" once you have the reactants together with the SOD. That may be splitting a semantic hair to finely but hey, this is vortex, not Phys. Rev. A ... *Plus* and very importantly (for use in an automobile) you get an ROS oxygen radical which normally requires half of 58 kcal/mol, which is the strength of the O-O bond. But the net benefit of HOOH as a liquid oxidant, compared to air is not just the net of 2500 Btu/lb - since air comes with the burden of 4 times its own volume of inert nitrogen and needs to be compressed 8-1 or more to burn properly. Even using 50% HOOH -- which is probably safe in small quantities (made 'on the fly') and does not need to be compressed in order to burn, it is looking to me like the net benefit of peroxide for equal torque delivered to an ICE from gas expansion following combustion, is this: peroxide reduces gasoline requirements by half compared to using air (yes Fred, that is just a guess ) but anyway, the potential seems to be there - to do this safely and reduce fossil fuel consumption drastically. Jones BTW in the case of insect metabolism - which is rather miraculous in such species as the Monarch butterfly - for instance - which migrate for vast distances with little nutrient consumption - there is a slight possibility that such is indeed a case of "free energy" from this kind of free-peroxide process. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 17:49:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R0mnpM019055; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:48:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R0mhqM019005; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:48:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:48:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:48:38 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: > There are indicators against this being a scam though, first the fact that > they have already patented useful (security) technology, have millions of > dollars, investors and if they are shown as pulling off a scam they will be > totally sunk. Why? If the FTC walks in, the people behind it will probably already be on a plane out of the country. If they already have investors money in their hands, it would be hard for them to be "sunk." > (scammers would be unlikely to put so much on the line, well > not on the line but more correctly sacrificed) What have they put on the line? Effort, of course, but all con games take effort. Some of them take lots of organizing. This would pose no problem if the rewards were large. > Also they are not asking for any investment this side of verification by a > Jury of 12 so they would need to somehow fool or rig the jury unless they > want to be asking for investment after the jury of 12 have decleared it > doesn't work. I'm assuming that they have scored enormous amounts of investment already. The latest publicity ploy could of course be legit. Or it could be part of the scam. They could easily be taking investors, yet loudly announcing that they will not. Or they could be taking new funding from their current investors, while not accepting new invesTORS (just accepting new investMENT.) Time will tell. I hope. If its a scam, and they just suddenly drop out of sight, would we even hear about it? > Given these facts while I think the 'scientific verification' route is > foolish I don't think scam really adds up. Scientific verification is worthless unless they hand over their secrets for independant testing. Having people come onto their turf is more a trick of stage magic. If you went in and tested their devices, would you be *certain* that there was no exotic energy transmission method powering it? Heh. Sufficiently advanced power transmission is indistiguishable from Overunity. Now if they're going to hand over devices two twelve skeptics, that's different. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 17:56:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R0u2SE022957; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:56:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R0txr4022915; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:55:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <6tSFgD.A.5lF.e2O8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > As has been pointed out before on this forum, an electric > generator driven by an electric motor where the ensemble is OU is > easy to demonstrate as such. Just let it power itself and > self-run. Absent any hidden wires, this is about as convincing a > demonstration as is possible. There is some speculation that the "Cappy" Hubbard device before 1920, where he ran a motorized rowboat on Puget Sound for immensely long time... was actually a Tesla power transmission setup, with a large induction loop hidden on shore. Hubbard claimed to have discovered a massive energy source, a high frequency radioactive battery. His device could have sat there putting out kilowatts for years if he wanted. At the time, nobody would have looked for VLF power transmission. Pure scam, if true. What would the modern equivalent entail? All you need is an energy- transmission scheme which is hard to detect. (I posted one on my "hoax" page, where an unsuspected narrow beam of electric wind is intercepted by a metal plate to become a power supply at high voltage and low current.) Al Hubbard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Matthew_Hubbard (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 19:52:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R2qZ91001884; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:52:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R2qYVu001863; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:52:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 27 Aug 2006 02:52:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7R2qVC6001831 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> As has been pointed out before on this forum, an electric >> generator driven by an electric motor where the ensemble is OU is >> easy to demonstrate as such. Just let it power itself and >> self-run. Absent any hidden wires, this is about as convincing a >> demonstration as is possible. > >There is some speculation that the "Cappy" Hubbard device before 1920, >where he ran a motorized rowboat on Puget Sound for immensely long time... >was actually a Tesla power transmission setup, with a large induction loop >hidden on shore. Given that it was in a boat, and thus had an excellent "ground" connection, that's entirely possible. >Hubbard claimed to have discovered a massive energy >source, a high frequency radioactive battery. His device could have sat >there putting out kilowatts for years if he wanted. At the time, nobody >would have looked for VLF power transmission. Pure scam, if true. What >would the modern equivalent entail? All you need is an energy- >transmission scheme which is hard to detect. (I posted one on my "hoax" >page, where an unsuspected narrow beam of electric wind is intercepted by >a metal plate to become a power supply at high voltage and low current.) This is true of course, however schemes where power is transmitted from a "local" source are fairly easy to detect by simply moving the ensemble around. If location and orientation make some difference, then there is a good chance that some sort of power transmission is involved. BTW moving them around has the added advantage that it soon reveals the presence or absence of hidden wiring. Then again, of course, some novel form of power transmission may have value in its own right, particularly if it involves transmission of power from a source that is inexhaustible/"free". A couple of potential sources to consider:- 1) The solar wind. 2) Oscillating plasma currents in the Sun. 3) Oscillations in the magnetic field surrounding the black hole at the galactic center, or various "magnetars". 4) Some interaction with the Earth's magnetic field which allows the device to derive energy from the rotation of the planet. All of the these implicitly require the transmission of power by currently unrecognized means via magnetic fields or sub-space. Given that the device in question relies on magnets, a magnetic field intermediary would seem at least possible (once again, if not a hoax). BTW there is also Joseph Newman's notion that such motors rely on the slow conversion of their own mass into energy. This notion may require as yet non-existent knowledge, but doesn't actually defy any of the "laws" of physics (i.e. all the conservation laws are obeyed). So perhaps magnets really do provide a means of achieving this, particularly if the magnets used contain long lived natural radioisotopes, such as Nd144 or Sm147-148. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 20:51:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R3pVTB021275; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:51:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R3pTjl021248; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:51:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:51:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:49:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Depending how much the ensemble leaks energy, it may not be self-powering even if OU is present. Harry Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > > As has been pointed out before on this forum, an electric > generator driven by an electric motor where the ensemble is OU is > easy to demonstrate as such. Just let it power itself and > self-run. Absent any hidden wires, this is about as convincing a > demonstration as is possible. > >> Selected by them, of course. They stated they want the most cynical and >> skepitcal. Of more than 3,500 volunteers to date, McCarthy has said at >> least 50 seem to be well qualified experimental physicists. >> >> When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy >> invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicates if >> he will. >> >> Time will tell the tale. My guess is they will prove to be on the level. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: "Michel Jullian" >>> Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >>> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:51:25 +0200 >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mark Goldes" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:14 PM >>> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm >>> ... >>>> I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have >>> said >>>> they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected scientists >>> have >>>> reported their findings. >>> >>> 12 selected scientists, fine, but selected by whom? >>> >>> Michel >>> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 21:16:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R4Fd93030820; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:15:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R49rf8028688; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.28] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:45 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2006 04:09:48.0340 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2F8EF40:01C6C98E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At this time they make no claim to a self-running device, but they clearly believe that will follow in the future. Their only claim at the moment is OU. Mark >From: Harry Veeder >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:49:26 -0500 > >Depending how much the ensemble leaks energy, it >may not be self-powering even if OU is present. > >Harry > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 > > -0700: > > Hi, > > [snip] > > > > As has been pointed out before on this forum, an electric > > generator driven by an electric motor where the ensemble is OU is > > easy to demonstrate as such. Just let it power itself and > > self-run. Absent any hidden wires, this is about as convincing a > > demonstration as is possible. > > > >> Selected by them, of course. They stated they want the most cynical >and > >> skeptical. Of more than 3,500 volunteers to date, McCarthy has said >at > >> least 50 seem to be well qualified experimental physicists. > >> > >> When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy > >> invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicates >if > >> he will. > >> > >> Time will tell the tale. My guess is they will prove to be on the >level. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: "Michel Jullian" > >>> Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >>> To: > >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm > >>> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:51:25 +0200 > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Mark Goldes" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:14 PM > >>> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm > >>> ... > >>>> I have seen nothing so far to indicate they are scammers. They have > >>> said > >>>> they will accept no further investment until the 12 selected >scientists > >>> have > >>>> reported their findings. > >>> > >>> 12 selected scientists, fine, but selected by whom? > >>> > >>> Michel > >>> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 21:46:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R4k7SU010775; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:46:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R4k5Ix010758; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:46:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:46:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:46:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20060825161856.02efdb10 mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20060825161856.02efdb10 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:45:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7R4k1Mi010691 Resent-Message-ID: <8rdeBD.A.-nC.NOS8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:19:20 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Full interview, (51 minutes, includes introduction) >http://newenergytimes.com/Audio/2006Steorn-McCarthyFull-Aug24.mp3 [snip] Having now listened to this, I found one extra interesting bit of information, namely that going around the circle in the opposite direction loses energy. This is an important clue. The implication is that the source of the excess energy can also be a sink. Such would probably not be the case if nuclear decay (in the magnets) were the energy source, but would however be true if e.g. either the van Allen belts, or the rotation of the Earth were the source (either of these could just as easily absorb energy as deliver it). Furthermore the fact that the process is asymmetric under rotation seems to imply that the other end of the "link" may also be rotational. IOW whether energy is gained or lost depends on whether one goes with or against the rotator on the "other end". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 21:55:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R4slKS015436; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R4sj4r015406; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:54:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:54:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:54:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:54:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7R4sa68015344 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:45 -0700: Hi, [snip] > >At this time they make no claim to a self-running device, but they clearly >believe that will follow in the future. Their only claim at the moment is >OU. > >Mark [snip] If you listen to Steve's interview they do in fact claim self-sustaining devices that run for weeks before they manually stop them to run certain tests. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 22:52:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R5qYri004312; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:52:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R5qWkX004285; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:52:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:52:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ZZTLeODLQb9a3AefK6JPISUVuxRnOVlixpIqrSLaoJ6ABIdWQeCnry67HHMW2jzEFKwwWbo9PpO+LigVdxL+LZcUpQMqfRhnU2/aOPXg90qJawePbTH9M5as2zPyLaCdnxOCAEdcQnPeSfqfLf1M42xMGSXXQpHfX5/2+1L82oo= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:52:30 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_202838_17595031.1156657950433" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ------=_Part_202838_17595031.1156657950433 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/27/06, William Beaty wrote: > > On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: > > > There are indicators against this being a scam though, first the fact > that > > they have already patented useful (security) technology, have millions > of > > dollars, investors and if they are shown as pulling off a scam they will > be > > totally sunk. > > Why? > > If the FTC walks in, the people behind it will probably already be on a > plane out of the country. If they already have investors money in their > hands, it would be hard for them to be "sunk." Maybe you missed the part where they have useful patented security technology? Do you really think that running a scam is a good way to get your current technology picked up? And for that matter their careers as scientists and or designers would be over. > (scammers would be unlikely to put so much on the line, well > > not on the line but more correctly sacrificed) > > What have they put on the line? Several useful technologies they bothered to Patent. Their names. Their Careers and business. Effort, of course, but all con games > take effort. Some of them take lots of organizing. This would pose no > problem if the rewards were large. > > > > Also they are not asking for any investment this side of verification by > a > > Jury of 12 so they would need to somehow fool or rig the jury unless > they > > want to be asking for investment after the jury of 12 have decleared it > > doesn't work. > > I'm assuming that they have scored enormous amounts of investment already. So you believe that it's already over, this isn't a part of the scam, the scam is over this is just to keep the current investors off their back until they can bother buying plane tickets? Perhaps they weren't ready to pack everything immediately and this is a delayed getaway for the lazy? But considering (I assume we both agree) that Free Energy is real we simply have to consider which is more likely, that this is 1: Some people honestly think they have FE but don't, 2: Some people honestly think they have FE and they do, 3: An elaborate hoax to fool current investors into believing they are going to get their monies worth. Now considering that 1 assumes they are truthful it is unlikely the effect is so effective as to convince so many scientists (them and others who have tested it) although i fear that it isn't closed loop yet. 2 makes sense the only issue is that they are going about it in a way that Jed, you and I think is not really sensible but it's not totally absurd it has been effective advertisement and Mark Godles agrees with it so it's not a method that couldn't be used by inventors of a genuine FE device. Also my only issue is that I believe the step is unnecessary and I have less faith in the general scientific community than them, but it is a method I would expect those who encountered FE out of chance discovery or who otherwise are closer to convention to try and do. However I am very interested if you can make the argument for a con more plausible than you so far have, if this is a scam it's early detection will help save the FE community from further bad press when it is discovered. The latest publicity ploy could of course be legit. Or it could be part > of the scam. They could easily be taking investors, yet loudly > announcing that they will not. I suppose this is possible but IMO this goes beyond reasonable suspicion. I would have little sympathy for any investor who would invest in someone that they can see is flatly lying to everyone but them. Or they could be taking new funding from > their current investors This can't be discounted, though it is an easy question to ask and if they publicly state no then the investors would know they are lying. , while not accepting new invesTORS (just accepting > new investMENT.) > > Time will tell. I hope. If its a scam, and they just suddenly drop > out of sight, would we even hear about it? > > > > Given these facts while I think the 'scientific verification' route is > > foolish I don't think scam really adds up. > > Scientific verification is worthless unless they hand over their secrets > for independant testing. They will either be giving people working devices or at the very least plans, either way I don't see it's likely they will keep many secrets from the jury. Having people come onto their turf is more a > trick of stage magic. If you went in and tested their devices, would you > be *certain* that there was no exotic energy transmission method powering > it? It is true that testing in the jury members own lab (and certainly in 12 of them) in various countries the chance of some exotic power transmission is so low as to fully discount, it appears from their statements the jury will test it in their own labs independently and one thing seemed to indicate they will construct or at least be able to construct the device under test themselves. Heh. Sufficiently advanced power transmission is indistiguishable from > Overunity. Yes, but almost as useful too. (almost) Now if they're going to hand over devices two twelve skeptics, that's > different. That's exactly what they said they are doing. ------=_Part_202838_17595031.1156657950433 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/27/06, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote:

> There are indicators against this being a scam though, first the fact that
> they have already patented useful (security) technology, have millions of
> dollars, investors and if they are shown as pulling off a scam they will be
> totally sunk.

Why?

If the FTC walks in, the people behind it will probably already be on a
plane out of the country.   If they already have investors money in their
hands, it would be hard for them to be "sunk."


Maybe you missed the part where they have useful patented security technology?
Do you really think that running a scam is a good way to get your current technology picked up?
And for that matter their careers as scientists and or designers would be over.

> (scammers would be unlikely to put so much on the line, well
> not on the line but more correctly sacrificed)

What have they put on the line? 

Several useful technologies they bothered to Patent.
Their names.
Their Careers and business.

  Effort, of course, but all con games
take effort.   Some of them take lots of organizing.   This would pose no
problem if the rewards were large.


> Also they are not asking for any investment this side of verification by a
> Jury of 12 so they would need to somehow fool or rig the jury unless they
> want to be asking for investment after the jury of 12 have decleared it
> doesn't work.

I'm assuming that they have scored enormous amounts of investment already.

So you believe that it's already over, this isn't a part of the scam, the scam is over this is just to keep the current investors off their back until they can bother buying plane tickets?

Perhaps they weren't ready to pack everything immediately and this is a delayed getaway for the lazy?

But considering (I assume we both agree) that Free Energy is real we simply have to consider which is more likely, that this is 1: Some people honestly think they have FE but don't, 2: Some people honestly think they have FE and they do, 3: An elaborate hoax to fool current investors into believing they are going to get their monies worth.

Now considering that 1 assumes they are truthful it is unlikely the effect is so effective as to convince so many scientists (them and others who have tested it) although i fear that it isn't closed loop yet.

2 makes sense the only issue is that they are going about it in a way that Jed, you and I think is not really sensible but it's not totally absurd it has been effective advertisement and Mark Godles agrees with it so it's not a method that couldn't be used by inventors of a genuine FE device.

Also my only issue is that I believe the step is unnecessary and I have less faith in the general scientific community than them, but it is a method I would expect those who encountered FE out of chance discovery or who otherwise are closer to convention to try and do.

However I am very interested if you can make the argument for a con more plausible than you so far have, if this is a scam it's early detection will help save the FE community from further bad press when it is discovered.

The latest publicity ploy could of course be legit.  Or it could be part
of the scam.   They could easily be taking investors, yet loudly
announcing that they will not.

I suppose this is possible but IMO this goes beyond reasonable suspicion.
I would have little sympathy for any investor who would invest in someone that they can see is flatly lying to everyone but them.

   Or they could be taking new funding from
their current investors

This can't be discounted, though it is an easy question to ask and if they publicly state no then the investors would know they are lying.

, while not accepting new invesTORS (just accepting
new investMENT.)

Time will tell.    I hope.   If its a scam, and they just suddenly drop
out of sight, would we even hear about it?


> Given these facts while I think the 'scientific verification' route is
> foolish I don't think scam really adds up.

Scientific verification is worthless unless they hand over their secrets
for independant testing.


They will either be giving people working devices or at the very least plans, either way I don't see it's likely they will keep many secrets from the jury.

   Having people come onto their turf is more a
trick of stage magic.   If you went in and tested their devices, would you
be *certain* that there was no exotic energy transmission method powering
it?

It is true that testing in the jury members own lab (and certainly in 12 of them) in various countries the chance of some exotic power transmission is so low as to fully discount, it appears from their statements the jury will test it in their own labs independently and one thing seemed to indicate they will construct or at least be able to construct the device under test themselves.


Heh.  Sufficiently advanced power transmission is indistiguishable from
Overunity.

Yes, but  almost as useful too. (almost)

Now if they're going to hand over devices two twelve skeptics, that's
different.

That's exactly what they said they are doing.
 

------=_Part_202838_17595031.1156657950433-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 23:29:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R6Sr2J018111; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:28:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R6SkoN018039; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:28:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:28:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.28] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:28:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2006 06:28:40.0775 (UTC) FILETIME=[097D9D70:01C6C9A2] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A That is great news! I have not listened to the interview. All the more likely they have done what they claim. Mark >From: Robin van Spaandonk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:54:36 +1000 > >In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:45 >-0700: >Hi, >[snip] > > > >At this time they make no claim to a self-running device, but they >clearly > >believe that will follow in the future. Their only claim at the moment >is > >OU. > > > >Mark >[snip] >If you listen to Steve's interview they do in fact claim >self-sustaining devices that run for weeks before they manually >stop them to run certain tests. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Aug 26 23:54:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7R6siEd027212; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:54:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7R6shMm027197; Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:54:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:54:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=iB5oTpKodb6VWUK52zXWH3fZyw1Hq1rMmFCFgAwhQhNL/MHB8vonWX98mqoFIiCubmPYzUnNDp6w8PkYxSBtt6NVaK9YiJZPCYqfsIJGLAPhn8GDMPQ9/0PArbJ5ZB8wAZFZrNR6sJ8ryFTjdKkmFhpWld7t7oqXcYJxpx0A3X4= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:54:42 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_203126_21960427.1156661682463" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_203126_21960427.1156661682463 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I hope you're right, IMO if it isn't closed loop they shouldn't have released it until they have that covered. It will only really be useful once they have it power it's self, this will also mean that the sceptical jury is far far more likely to come back with a positive result, not that I think sceptics wouldn't fail a valid transparent closed loop (self powering) device but it is far harder to look sensible at the same time. If it isn't closed loop (which my first email assumed) I think their claim is essentially nonsense even if true. (because it is obviously impractical) On 8/27/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:45 > -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > > > >At this time they make no claim to a self-running device, but they > clearly > >believe that will follow in the future. Their only claim at the moment > is > >OU. > > > >Mark > [snip] > If you listen to Steve's interview they do in fact claim > self-sustaining devices that run for weeks before they manually > stop them to run certain tests. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_203126_21960427.1156661682463 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I hope you're right, IMO if it isn't closed loop they shouldn't have released it until they have that covered.

It will only really be useful once they have it power it's self, this will also mean that the sceptical jury is far far more likely to come back with a positive result, not that I think sceptics wouldn't fail a valid transparent closed loop (self powering) device but it is far harder to look sensible at the same time.

If it isn't closed loop (which my first email assumed) I think their claim is essentially nonsense even if true. (because it is obviously impractical)

On 8/27/06, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  Mark Goldes's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:09:45
-0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>
>At this time they make no claim to a self-running device, but they clearly
>believe that will follow in the future.  Their only claim at the moment is
>OU.
>
>Mark
[snip]
If you listen to Steve's interview they do in fact claim
self-sustaining devices that run for weeks before they manually
stop them to run certain tests.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_203126_21960427.1156661682463-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 04:33:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RBXT53008632; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:33:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RBXRT5008608; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:33:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=T1M6UzgaxHlspigzzkPpfs4WgUwR8k+7eLTDLV299LUMw8awxoIyXn2PJ/2qQK9P; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220068027113259630 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" , "Jones Beene" Subject: [Vo]: Re: A SODden Thought.... Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 05:32:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406a66f54d32fa0c58580082d679733c75350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.163 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some numbers to ponder, Jones. It takes less than 2.5 eV to electrolyze water as opposed to the 498 kJ/mole (5.17 eV) H-OH bond energy. OTOH, the Ag-O bond energy is 2.38 eV and the Ag-H bond energy is 2.23 eV. It has been experimentally verified that water dissociates to adsorbed H and OH on bulk silver, and that AgOx decomposes to Ag + Ox at 230 C (500 K or 446 F). >From H2O + O ----> 2 OH on silver (the HO-OH bond energy is 2.2 eV) the energy required to remove the 2 OH molecules as a gas should be less than that required to decompose AgOx. Recombination of 2 OH to form HOOH is 2.2 eV per bond (213 kJ/mole) is lost energy as is recombination of 2 OH ----> H2O + O (nascent oxygen). Since there are plenty of free electrons in metals, O2, H, and OH species adsorbed on the surface can be attracted with a strength related to the Electron Affinity : O2 (0.451 eV) O (1.46 eV) H (0.754 eV) and OH (1.828 eV). IOW, You Can Split it For Free, But, Can You Git It for Free? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Some numbers to ponder, Jones.
 
It takes less than 2.5 eV to electrolyze water as opposed to the 498 kJ/mole
(5.17 eV) H-OH bond energy.
OTOH, the Ag-O bond energy is 2.38 eV and the Ag-H bond energy
is 2.23 eV.
It has been experimentally verified that water  dissociates to
adsorbed H and OH on bulk silver, and that AgOx  decomposes
to Ag + Ox at 230 C (500 K or 446 F).
 
From H2O + O ---->  2 OH on silver (the HO-OH bond energy is 2.2 eV)
the energy required to remove the 2 OH molecules as a gas should be
less than that required to decompose AgOx.
Recombination of 2 OH to form HOOH is 2.2 eV per bond (213 kJ/mole)
is lost energy as is recombination of 2 OH ----> H2O + O (nascent oxygen).
 
Since there are plenty of free electrons in metals, O2, H, and OH species adsorbed on
the surface can be attracted with a strength related to the
Electron Affinity :  O2 (0.451 eV) O (1.46 eV)  H (0.754 eV) and OH (1.828 eV).
 
IOW, You Can Split it For Free, But, Can You Git It for Free?   :-)
 
Fred
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 08:03:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RF03OE004515; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:02:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7REi5L5028077; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:44:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aFelWR/XdJ1gXzpG3Nzdw0qtf67radoDg7KA4f7Pl07UgqTynX3gj7NaQRBf3kp/Q0dkC7maPMn7tWMg2jEkCnkQmpPLimdk7bIdg/rTjXyevlOaMZz/inEECKjY3JqqM4Mn7soOV9ve76HE/07Hvs17DLXIV1umuYkVwLSTlOI= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:43:56 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <5SBj9.A.l2G.1-a8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/26/06, John Berry wrote: > There are indicators against this being a scam though, Not a scam; but, a well chiseled lead-in to the next season of "Lost". Do you remember the magnetic effect in the last episode? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 11:44:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RIeBDI028068; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:43:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RHw0NG023667; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:58:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:57:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=rCWniaZyE8Unt/J17qIySud8gGGiQ4SSakDOcGE5wX6eMW3LBzn0/iBpJ3jUowLjyU/gMhvKmsZxArro1xv2aHVQKdK6dFfG26P6YsDWp537nSSpOZgqwWJTv+fvg/3QyPqSfyq7OAIC7zWd0PpEwZ7Tb6BKbrkLJo0yj/+dSMw= ; Message-ID: <007301c6c9f3$6b3ec6f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220068027113259630 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:11:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6ROFbD.A.6wF.l0d8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A SODden Thought.... Status: O X-Status: Fred, > Recombination of 2 OH to form HOOH is 2.2 eV per bond (213 > kJ/mole) is lost energy ... But it isn't "lost" if it supplies the energy (recycling the catalyst) needed to dissociate the O from the M-O, for instance. Or, from you original post about your experience with Manganese reactions (at Sandia) ... 2 MnO + O2 ----> 2 MnO2 H2O (on a metal surface) H-OH + M <----> H + OH:M Overall: 2 H2O + O2 + M <----> 4 OH + M (where M is a metal or Metal Oxide) However, after refining the supply calculation more, and talking to an redox expert - it does appear that there is a big probelm with this concept for certain implemenations - for instance, it will not be feasible for use in the small tool engine market, or even for motor cycles. The situation for automobiles and home use is this: For every gallon of biodiesel, LP, diesel or gasoline fuel burned, about six gallons of oxidant (50% HOOH) will be needed. 50% in the minimum that will self-ignite, and several companies are selling it for the hobbiest rocketry enthusiasts: http://systemesolaire.safeshopper.com/2/cat2.htm?181 The oxidant has substantial energy content and will supply about half of the net energy used in the ICE, and the process will be very efficient, but also very bulky. I can see a future situation where a household or neighborhood co-op can make their own electricity, heat and hot water cheaper than they can buy it from a utility - using a small shed for the engine and circulating the steam for heat before condensing it. But mobility of the total system is an issue even for automobiles. There is no problem in actually manufacturing this much peroxide, "on the fly" using a minimum of parasitic energy from the engine, if your reactor and concentrator is large enough (5-10 gallon capacity perhaps), but the problem is *space* and the need for a large radiator to condense most of the water from steam in the exhaust, so that less water is used to make the peroxide in the ongoing system. Even when gasoline hits $5 in the USA (after the next election) few automobile owners are going to want to carry the full 60 gallons of water to burn 10 gallons of gasoline. They won't need to - if steam from the exhaust is condensed. I do not see storing peroxide, made elsewhere, as a viable option - it is too dangerous. If it cannot be made economically "on the fly" then this idea is a bust. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 12:03:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RIeBDK028068; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:43:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RHLnBl027099; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:21:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:21:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:13:37 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: References: <0b4901c6c959$c74c3350$3800a8c0 zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at iowatelecom.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7RHLeBH026945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 -0700, "Mark Goldes" wrote: >When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy >invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicates if >he will. > >Mark Kaku isn't an experimental physicist -- he's theoretical. Wouldn't Puthoff and group be a better choice? -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- AC?BG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 12:09:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RIeBDG028068; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:43:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RIK4KZ009804; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:20:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:20:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=K4TYYNJgqXdIhvTVVfyRjinTV3NA43fBftxf6qtdZKSWeyAT9Dhs55l962oUCu7XOG0q7klPC6fAOPQWwOk293/X/yKapeiG0NoJu5kLOk4tVc5CL0SAZptkhXRi+nfDB1QBb70tkKH1W/MRLuj10+wTUSp/Qpo4ZNVxi2TDa7Y= ; Message-ID: <20060827173634.93331.qmail web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:36:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <87h1f2dr4r3o89dpqe9euups5m1m5fcloo 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-712241023-1156700194=:92243" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-712241023-1156700194=:92243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robin, Harry, Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear train, and if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose time or not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is missing. Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of clocks or watches, unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, which is electronic and not effected by physical vibration. Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure - which can effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall were regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the pendulum, and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum weight. I don't normally say things like this, but I find it highly unlikely that vibration was the factor (more likely impossible). If consistent vibration could lower or increase the speed of a clock, it would keep right on going requiring frequent resetting - whereby the pendulum would be adjusted until it kept acceptable time. I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as there ever where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold for scrap. Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin) Chris Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:15:49 -0500: Hi, [snip] I think both are correct. I have no doubt that jewelers do try to keep their clocks showing the same time. However I think that a degree of self-synchronization also occurs, for the reason stated in my previous email, particularly for clocks that have a heavy movement and consequent strong vibrations. >Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall >were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired >about?! > >Harry > > >Christopher Arnold wrote: > >Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. > > > >Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes >his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self >synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the >same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling >diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the >majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not >conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune >are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and >exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-712241023-1156700194=:92243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Robin, Harry,
 
Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear train, and if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose time or not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is missing. Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of clocks or watches, unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, which is electronic and not effected by physical vibration.
 
Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure - which can effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall were regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the pendulum, and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum weight. I don't normally say things like this, but I find it highly unlikely that vibration was the factor (more likely impossible). If consistent vibration could lower or increase the speed of a clock, it would keep right on going requiring frequent resetting - whereby the pendulum would be adjusted until it kept acceptable time.
 
I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as there ever where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold for scrap.
 
Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin)
 
Chris

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:15:49
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]

I think both are correct. I have no doubt that jewelers do try to
keep their clocks showing the same time. However I think that a
degree of self-synchronization also occurs, for the reason stated
in my previous email, particularly for clocks that have a heavy
movement and consequent strong vibrations.


>Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall
>were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired
>about?!
>
>Harry
>
>
>Christopher Arnold wrote:
>
>Gents, I cannot take this - any longer.
>
>
>
>Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes
>his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self
>synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the
>same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling
>diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the
>majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not
>conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune
>are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and
>exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --0-712241023-1156700194=:92243-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 12:50:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RJo27q020493; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:50:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RJnaUx020172; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:47:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea In-reply-to: <20060827173634.93331.qmail web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_dIvugLpshRtw6/vCF5cIUQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_dIvugLpshRtw6/vCF5cIUQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here is a more accurate account: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14766 Harry Christopher Arnold wrote: Robin, Harry, Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear train, and if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose time or not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is missing. Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of clocks or watches, unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, which is electronic and not effected by physical vibration. Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure - which can effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall were regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the pendulum, and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum weight. I don't normally say things like this, but I find it highly unlikely that vibration was the factor (more likely impossible). If consistent vibration could lower or increase the speed of a clock, it would keep right on going requiring frequent resetting - whereby the pendulum would be adjusted until it kept acceptable time. I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as there ever where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold for scrap. Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin) Chris --Boundary_(ID_dIvugLpshRtw6/vCF5cIUQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Here is a more accurate account:

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14766

Harry

Christopher Arnold wrote:

Robin, Harry,
 

 
Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear train, and if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose time or not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is missing. Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of clocks or watches, unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, which is electronic and not effected by physical vibration.
 

 
Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure - which can effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall were regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the pendulum, and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum weight. I don't normally say things like this, but I find it highly unlikely that vibration was the factor (more likely impossible). If consistent vibration could lower or increase the speed of a clock, it would keep right on going requiring frequent resetting - whereby the pendulum would be adjusted until it kept acceptable time.
 

 
I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as there ever where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold for scrap.
 

 
Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin)
 

 
Chris
--Boundary_(ID_dIvugLpshRtw6/vCF5cIUQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 12:59:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RJxTQg026499; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:59:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RJxSFV026478; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:59:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:59:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060827195926794.C1D956400081 mwinf3109.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060827195927.00a04cdc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:59:27 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:47 pm 27/08/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Here is a more accurate account: > >http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14766 > >Harry Well done. There's no arguing with that one, eh! 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 14:57:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RLvP0e029553; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:57:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RLvMpm029511; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:57:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:57:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yLNmDgYl6nlTqYhAkTDGC5K0Ag6Oo4SYhpq+OErwp7QpreCbN7xZ23DzSvt3mh7UvJJDUPQECgoktDqfsH55zXGV/am2sSrqnF/JqHBldivPzawsN+9BiQfmscasB2A/aJ9DHkO/i2HD7mET/YIrRKcyZ0ObzO3FGGqgGaqD0IU= ; Message-ID: <20060827215721.25719.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1042280367-1156715841=:23847" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1042280367-1156715841=:23847 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Harry, Very good link. What I was commenting on was "ALL the clocks in a clock shop self synchronizing" - which the link specifically referred to only two clocks on the same plank if the conditions were just right and the cases were not heavy, the pendulums would swing in opposite - which is vastly different than the quote. Specifics. In any case, quite interesting. Chris wrote: Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired about?! Harry Christopher Arnold wrote: Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS. Chris Arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. --0-1042280367-1156715841=:23847 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Harry,
 
Very good link. What I was commenting on was "ALL the clocks in a clock shop self synchronizing" - which the link specifically referred to only two clocks on the same plank if the conditions were just right and the cases were not heavy, the pendulums would swing in opposite - which is vastly different than the quote. Specifics.
 
In any case, quite interesting.
 
Chris
 
<Someone recently mentioned the phenomenon of all the clocks in a
clock shop self synchronizing. My guess would be that this is due
to the transmission of vibrations through the planks they sit on.


Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same wall
were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he enquired about?!

Harry


Christopher Arnold wrote:

Gents, I cannot take this - any longer.
 

 
Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and makes his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks showing the same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not busy selling diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same time as the majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do not conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same tune are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate and exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of CGSS.
 

 
Chris Arnold


Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. --0-1042280367-1156715841=:23847-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 15:14:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RMEObC006407; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:14:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RMELuu006382; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:14:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:14:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 08:14:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20060827215721.25719.qmail@web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060827215721.25719.qmail web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:14:06 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7RME8Mj006316 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Christopher Arnold's message of Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT): Hi, >Harry, > > Very good link. What I was commenting on was "ALL the clocks in a clock shop self synchronizing" - which the link specifically referred to only two clocks on the same plank if the conditions were just right and the cases were not heavy, the pendulums would swing in opposite - which is vastly different than the quote. Specifics. > > In any case, quite interesting. [snip] At any rate, I was using the analogy only to point to the concept of coupled oscillations. Which in the mean time seems to have become lost. In other words the list in general has ignored the main features of my original post, and concentrated on the trivia. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 15:40:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RMecsl020673; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:40:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RMeZsk020643; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:40:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:40:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:40:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: "JNPCo." Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1055404066==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: <_fZdmC.A.WCF.i9h8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: *******UPDATE: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN NEW, FREE VIDEO ONLINE! Status: O X-Status: --============_-1055404066==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" * * * * * * * UPDATE: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN NEW, FREE VIDEO ONLINE! To view the new video (two different sizes) with the latest information regarding THE NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE visit: Smaller video file URL (157MB) entitled "Cut Cost of Oil 2": http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1610087835473512086&hl=en Larger video file URL (404MB) entitled "Cut Cost of Oil 3": http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3484490731703421398&hl=en Please let others know about these new videos! Thanks! NEWMAN ENERGY CORPORATION http://www.josephnewman.com/ Joseph Nolfe, President & CEO NECorp. (205) 835-9022 --============_-1055404066==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" *******UPDATE: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN NEW, FR
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Joseph Nolfe, President & CEO NECorp.
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--============_-1055404066==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 15:48:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7RMmdbB026107; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:48:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7RMmbdG026089; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:48:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=R+h/+4jI2DeIfBVYD6yAKCd0EuneX7VAaWhwfoeru1vqwvxW6VGCDi+/ea4f0KNx/SOhfbjYyT6NMhoht98HIkIDacU/sQ8EGGLGQbmQmm7JpcpW6nbb8f2WfOfc+Dxj4r/8hi+hEWNadkRDBQa0TEmxuXVx9lhmeTgOX2FxPGo= ; Message-ID: <001801c6ca2a$ef7f6aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20060827215721.25719.qmail@web33315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:48:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Half baked idea Status: O X-Status: Robin > In other words the list in general has ignored the > main features of my original post, and concentrated on the > trivia. Not at all. Lack of comment from the list on good ideas seldom implies either. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 20:35:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7S3ZabH001937; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:35:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7S3ZXTj001908; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:35:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:35:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:35:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Aug 2006 03:35:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7S3ZUPL001857 Resent-Message-ID: <6y63mC.A.rd.FSm8EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:54:42 +1200: Hi, >I hope you're right, IMO if it isn't closed loop they shouldn't have >released it until they have that covered. > >It will only really be useful once they have it power it's self, this will Not only do they claim that is powers itself, but also that it has an output power density of about 500 mW / cc, which roughly scales linearly with size. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Aug 27 21:05:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7S44tnr016012; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:04:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7S44sbs015993; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:04:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:04:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c6ca57$15eac230$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20060827173634.93331.qmail web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:04:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CA35.8136AF80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CA35.8136AF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A bit of a reality check. This notion of clock synchronization is most = likely from a time of pendulum clocks mounted on a wall of some = flexibility. Small reaction forces from pendulums conceivably can be = transmitted to and from the wall. The pendulum is a high Q resonator, = and clocks of similar design will have pendulums set to nearly equal = periods. Under these circumstances it would be a bit difficult to = disprove that coupling between clocks is insufficient to produce phase = lock.=20 Mike Carrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Arnold=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked idea Robin, Harry,=20 Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear train, = and if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose = time or not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is = missing. Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of = clocks or watches, unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, = which is electronic and not effected by physical vibration. Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure - which can = effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple = positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall were = regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the = pendulum, and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum = weight. I don't normally say things like this, but I find it highly = unlikely that vibration was the factor (more likely impossible). If = consistent vibration could lower or increase the speed of a clock, it = would keep right on going requiring frequent resetting - whereby the = pendulum would be adjusted until it kept acceptable time. I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as there = ever where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold = for scrap. Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin) Chris Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:15:49 -0500: Hi, [snip] I think both are correct. I have no doubt that jewelers do try to keep their clocks showing the same time. However I think that a degree of self-synchronization also occurs, for the reason stated in my previous email, particularly for clocks that have a heavy movement and consequent strong vibrations. >Huygens (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same = wall >were synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he = enquired >about?! > >Harry > > >Christopher Arnold wrote: > >Gents, I cannot take this - any longer. >=20 > >=20 >Being a Jeweler who builds new technology particle accelerators and = makes >his own diamonds - I must correct the nonsense of clock group self >synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers like all their clocks = showing the >same time, resetting them as often as needed, when they are not = busy selling >diamonds. Why - who will buy the clocks that don't have the same = time as the >majority. This is the same thing as the majority rejecting ideas = that do not >conform with their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the = same tune >are accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be = accurate and >exactly correct all the time - which provides the appearance of = CGSS. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ = countries) for 2=A2/min or less.=20 = ________________________________________________________________________ This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. = Department. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CA35.8136AF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A bit of a reality check. This notion = of clock=20 synchronization is most likely from a time of pendulum clocks mounted on = a wall=20 of some flexibility. Small reaction forces from pendulums conceivably = can be=20 transmitted to and from the wall. The pendulum is a high Q resonator, = and clocks=20 of similar design will have pendulums set to nearly equal periods. Under = these=20 circumstances it would be a bit difficult to disprove that coupling = between=20 clocks is insufficient to produce phase lock.
 
Mike Carrell
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Arnold =
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 = 1:36=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half baked = idea

Robin, Harry,
 
Clocks run by turning gears having force applied to the gear = train, and=20 if a gear starts skipping teeth from vibration, the clock will loose = time or=20 not operate as the only way to skip a tooth is if that tooth is = missing.=20 Vibration has nothing to do with the timekeeping ability of clocks or = watches,=20 unless it is from the vibration of the quartz timer, which is = electronic and=20 not effected by physical vibration.
 
Timepieces can be adjusted for temperature and pressure = - which=20 can effect the hairspring timing by changes in humidity. Also multiple = positions can be adjusted for, but most old clocks on a wall = were=20 regulators, tripping the escapement with each repeating swing of the = pendulum,=20 and timing was controlled by raising or lowering the pendulum weight. = I don't=20 normally say things like this, but I find it highly unlikely that = vibration=20 was the factor (more likely impossible). If consistent vibration could = lower=20 or increase the speed of a clock, it would keep right on going = requiring=20 frequent resetting - whereby the pendulum would be adjusted until it = kept=20 acceptable time.
 
I believe there were just as many jokesters in the 1600's as = there ever=20 where (including here) - and many times a good bridge has been sold = for=20 scrap.
 
Best Regards (didn't mean to jump on you Robin)
 
Chris

Robin van Spaandonk=20 <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In=20 reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 26 Aug 2006=20 16:15:49
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]

I think both are correct. = I have=20 no doubt that jewelers do try to
keep their clocks showing the = same time.=20 However I think that a
degree of self-synchronization also = occurs, for=20 the reason stated
in my previous email, particularly for clocks = that have=20 a heavy
movement and consequent strong = vibrations.


>Huygens=20 (in the 1600's) noticed pendulum clocks mounted on the same = wall
>were=20 synchronised. Do you think someone was pulling his leg when he=20 = enquired
>about?!
>
>Harry
>
>
>Chris= topher=20 Arnold wrote:
>
>Gents, I cannot take this - any = longer.
>=20
>
>
>Being a Jeweler who builds new technology = particle=20 accelerators and makes
>his own diamonds - I must correct the = nonsense=20 of clock group self
>synchronization or CGSS. Most jewelers = like all=20 their clocks showing the
>same time, resetting them as often = as=20 needed, when they are not busy selling
>diamonds. Why - who = will buy=20 the clocks that don't have the same time as the
>majority. = This is the=20 same thing as the majority rejecting ideas that do = not
>conform with=20 their own empirical wisdom, so those that chirp the same = tune
>are=20 accepted and clocks that all have the same time MUST be accurate=20 and
>exactly correct all the time - which provides the = appearance of=20 CGSS.
Regards,

Robin van=20 = Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition= =20 provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the=20 means.


Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make=20 PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2=A2/min or = less.=20 =
_____________________________________________________________________= ___
This=20 Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T.=20 Department.
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CA35.8136AF80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 07:42:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SEgg5U021924; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:42:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SEXJsV016287; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:33:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:33:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.7] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:33:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2006 14:33:18.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[E76A6E30:01C6CAAE] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sure, but Kaku is a public figure. If they choose 11 experimentalists plus Kaku that might make sense. They are unlikely to choose Hal, as they have stated they will not utilize scientists who may be sympathetic to the idea. They want the most cynical and skeptical. Since they claim the device self-runs, that seems wise to me. Mark >From: Dean Miller >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:13:37 -0500 > >On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:50 -0700, "Mark Goldes" >wrote: > > >When ABC News published critical comments by Dr. Michio Kaku, McCarthy > >invited him to participate. To my knowledge he has not yet indicated >if > >he will. > > > >Mark > >Kaku isn't an experimental physicist -- he's theoretical. > >Wouldn't Puthoff and group be a better choice? > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- AC?BG > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 10:13:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SHDEAV014007; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:13:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SHDCJA013985; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:13:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c6cac5$38b67ed0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:13:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CACD.98C5E3D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CACD.98C5E3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's a site with an interview and pictures. http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CACD.98C5E3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's a site with an interview and=20 pictures.
 
 
= http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CACD.98C5E3D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 13:03:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SK3gkJ009904; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:03:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SK3eA5009884; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:03:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:03:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=tER+oSNPPWL0R42tgdX+DKIBeoRUkLijFW6X9nFNcwI3SV1gCR02R602FM+YQWTQ3ni9GbAUxyNlO4gSWlUX4v9jIh1PDktmq6hO5S1ExKrwSeCv9F34iLmF1FuW2v1tw0ZOcXj+A/sWXkqJBoSakIG2EuPqFhJSyPWMvIiNqjo= ; Message-ID: <006401c6cadd$0daa8520$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:03:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fred's 'Black Project' Exposed Status: O X-Status: http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2006/08/rocket-boots.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 13:36:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SKahqD028089; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SKaeIL028056; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, John Berry wrote: > Maybe you missed the part where they have useful patented security > technology? > Do you really think that running a scam is a good way to get your current > technology picked up? > And for that matter their careers as scientists and or designers would be > over. Now THAT'S a good point. I was imagining a possible scam where either the money was big enough to be worth a sudden move to Brazil regardless of the cost to their careers... or it's a scame where they keep the game up forever, always taking in more investors, but always being on the verge of having an OU device to release. > > What have they put on the line? > > > Several useful technologies they bothered to Patent. > Their names. > Their Careers and business. Scams hinge on money, so the possibility of a scam is proportional to their efforts to attract large investors, minus the costs to themselves. If they've honestly said no to huge dollar amounts in the past, and are waiting for results of their challenge, then it's probably *not* a scam. > So you believe that it's already over, this isn't a part of the scam, the > scam is over this is just to keep the current investors off their back until > they can bother buying plane tickets? If "free energy" and "investors" are both relevant, then bzzzzzt!... assume that a scam is a real possibility. If there are plenty of unknowns involved (e.g. we don't know if they've already raked in large dollar amounts) then a scam is still possible unless we know better. I see it as a spectrum. For known honest inventors, the ends of the spectrum extend between "it's real" on one end, and "it's a mistake" on the other. Where the level of honesty is unknown, then add a second axis to the possibilities, going between "scam" versus "real-or-mistake." > But considering (I assume we both agree) that Free Energy is real we simply > have to consider which is more likely, that this is 1: Some people honestly > think they have FE but don't, 2: Some people honestly think they have FE and > they do, 3: An elaborate hoax to fool current investors into believing they > are going to get their monies worth. Lol! I wrote the earlier stuff before reading down to this point. As for FE, if it were fairly easy to accomplish, then we'd have had it for decades, perhaps centuries. I suspect that it's difficult, but also that anyone who is successful will almost automatically go down a path which silences the discovery. I think Jed's term was "own worst enemy syndrome." > 2 makes sense the only issue is that they are going about it in a way that > Jed, you and I think is not really sensible but it's not totally absurd it > has been effective advertisement and Mark Godles agrees with it so it's not > a method that couldn't be used by inventors of a genuine FE device. It *could* be entirely real. Until more information comes in, the true status is somewhere between "scam" and "genuine" and "measurement error" (on a 3-axis graph!) > I suppose this is possible but IMO this goes beyond reasonable suspicion. > I would have little sympathy for any investor who would invest in someone > that they can see is flatly lying to everyone but them. But that's a classic scammer strategy! Play to their ego, and just tell your rich victim that the general public doesn't have access to the secret investment opportunity being offered. > It is true that testing in the jury members own lab (and certainly in 12 of > them) in various countries the chance of some exotic power transmission is > so low as to fully discount, it appears from their statements the jury will > test it in their own labs independently and one thing seemed to indicate > they will construct or at least be able to construct the device under test > themselves. If they drop the secrecy and give over all info to the jury, then the probability of scam goes way down. > That's exactly what they said they are doing. I saw that they were going to have skeptics test their device. That's different than handing the devices over. (But I haven't read everything on their site yet.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 13:50:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SKno1l004002; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:49:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SKnmxP003986; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:49:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: > That is great news! > > I have not listened to the interview. > > All the more likely they have done what they claim. If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful suppression. Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 14:10:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SLAPKM015618; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:10:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SLAOGQ015597; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:10:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:10:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c6cae6$5fcc2120$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:10:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CAEE.BFCA9630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <1XSU_C.A.lzD._u18EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gifnet website Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CAEE.BFCA9630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as = demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005? ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CAEE.BFCA9630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as=20 demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005?
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6CAEE.BFCA9630-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 14:14:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SLDnpI018612; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SLDmJg018592; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:46 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, William Beaty wrote: > But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd > otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. >From PSEN interview: "McCarthy declined to specify how many prototypes they had built..." Huh? OK, now that's just insane. Why can't the guy say "five?" Or "one?" Or "lots and lots?" He doesn't want anyone to know?! That's nuts. Or dishonest. Or more likely, the whole group is infected with the "secrecy" disease. I bet it never even occurred to any of them to simply post all the construction details on their website. Then no strange machinations are needed. No "jury" or other sillyness. "...or how long they have run..." Same comment: total insanity! When asked such a simple question, he can't simply speak the words "they've run for weeks"? Or whatever the time really is? "...how much power they produce, and other details of the design." How horrible if the general public found out any of these dark secrets. :) I did see other messages mentioning the power density for the device. But my comments still stand. If a reporter asks you what the best closed-loop run time is, and how much power it produces, and if you refuse to say, then that's a big red flag. If later you do give out this information, the red flag still stands. Why did you refuse to say in the first place? What's the story with this hiding THE SIMPLE DETAILS OF WHAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY CLAIMING?!!! Sheesh. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 14:34:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SLY3Wl031234; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:34:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SLY1Ml031207; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:34:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:34:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tnWe1RUSIaUHWXxXkRd/FKZaQy0ggE2IDypmBXZGIxlAjo7TtkVC6T3k6msL3WBRz2HozWSL0MNIxTE4pkHluGE24xI0OqL0bROJ/A0wA7zfb7f0WwMYC9KQfnZ8MJPeuYTuC8fPNClY0JvjkUlSEPc16rOXeYAfDX8KuiQef1M= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:33:56 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gifnet website In-Reply-To: <000801c6cae6$5fcc2120$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000801c6cae6$5fcc2120$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/28/06, Nick Palmer wrote: > > Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as > demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005? None of it good. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 14:52:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SLqgGY010256; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:52:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SLf8Fb004297; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Vortex-L Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn In-Reply-To: <000801c6cac5$38b67ed0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Message-ID: References: <000801c6cac5$38b67ed0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Nick Palmer wrote: > Here's a site with an interview and pictures. > http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/ It might be real or a scam... but if it's an honest mistake, what kind of mistake would it be? One big possibility is that they've discovered a way to make magnets slowly demagnetize themselves while they also inject KE into a rotor. In the interview above, they mention that they haven't proved whether the energy is coming from the electrical energy that was originally used to magnetize the magnets. Neodymium magnets are famous for such effects: specifically, if two alike poles of NIB magnets are forced together, there is a kind of "frictional" energy loss as the magnets suddenly weaken. As I understand it, if we throw two NIB magnets together hard enough, they bounce inelastically but without ever touching, and they become very slightly warm. Maybe there's some configuration of magnets which evolves some KE during demagnetization, rather than just sucking in mechanical energy and heating the magnets. I'd think this would be very easy to detect. Just use some other type of magnet. If the FE effect is strong only for NIB magnets, then that's very suspicious. Or stick a magnetometer probe on a magnet face and see if the field is slowly getting weaker as the device runs. Or even better, take a clue from CF experiments and let the rotor run for enough hours that it should have exhausted the magnets' magnetization many times over. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 15:05:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SM577I016868; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:05:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SM55It016842; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:05:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:05:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:04:34 -0600 Message-Id: <200608281604.AA460718314 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: <2FhwQC.A.FHE.Qi28EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There was an interview just on TV (4 p.m. est, 8-28) on Cavuto (Fox News--should be replayed tonight after midnight sometime) with the Steorn guy. He was at least open enough to admit that this clearly violates energy conservation and they have no idea where the energy comes from. In my experience, most of the frauds insist that the energy comes from some place, usually the "zero point field". I find it at least refreshing that they aren't claiming that, just that it produces more energy than it consumes, now won't you please test this you scientist types. They say they are not going to ask for money. So, if they start asking for money or don't allow the tests, or put so many stipulations on the test that no one will do it anyway, then is the time to tell them to go blow. In the meantime, as long as it doesn't cost anything, I'll see what they have to say. Jeffery D. Kooistra ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: William Beaty Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) >On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Nick Palmer wrote: > >> Here's a site with an interview and pictures. >> http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steorn_free_energy_gauntlet/ > >It might be real or a scam... but if it's an honest mistake, what kind >of mistake would it be? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 15:14:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SMEjka023437; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:14:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SMEfYH023402; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:14:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:14:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:14:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7SMEb9W023358 Resent-Message-ID: <6-9vO.A.jtF.Rr28EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >It *could* be entirely real. Until more information comes in, the true >status is somewhere between "scam" and "genuine" and "measurement error" >(on a 3-axis graph!) [snip] Given that they claim to already have a device that not only self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or it's real. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 16:13:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SNADOm018887; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:13:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SN3Zb0013581; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:03:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:03:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=NEnKT9uNV1FQbtu4VO7n64vOFxAZ92U+jyzFRj3H8qRpD91KWKepqZu35CEwaM1XhgjJwon+xEcl56Z9AZAJ/AhKDzSMknwsxzuQnqiMy1TOjNDCPXE4/Lq+WQvQQDIU1rnUzQVWykcdDYC8hOxAgVGnJAvSN2fNEulRnAlQbdQ= ; Message-ID: <00cc01c6caf0$bc6671b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000801c6cae6$5fcc2120$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:24:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C6CAB6.0F658D50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Gifnet website Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C6CAB6.0F658D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick, On the JLN forum, a fellow is claiming that a group in Czech Rep. has = built a successful 9 MW reactor based on MAHG. I wrote him for details but have heard nothing yet. Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) as = demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005? ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C6CAB6.0F658D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nick,
 
On the JLN forum, a fellow is claiming = that a group=20 in Czech Rep. has built a successful 9 MW reactor based on = MAHG.
 
I wrote him for details but have heard = nothing=20 yet.
Any news on JL Naudin's Moller Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) = as=20 demonstrated to Kofi Annan in 2005?
------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C6CAB6.0F658D50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 16:14:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SNEUhp022106; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:14:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SNES38022091; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:14:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:14:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <88t6f2ptn3m20rd00c8pjumka2qfe3uqsk 4ax.com> References: <000801c6cac5$38b67ed0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:14:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7SNELnQ022003 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >One big possibility is that they've discovered a way to make magnets >slowly demagnetize themselves while they also inject KE into a rotor. In >the interview above, they mention that they haven't proved whether the >energy is coming from the electrical energy that was originally used to >magnetize the magnets. [snip] Assuming that NIB magnets have an energy density of about 40 MGO (this is actually on the high side I think), then we can easily compare this to the figures they have already provided:- i.e. 500 mW/cc for "weeks". Assuming only 2 weeks we get a figure of ~6E5 J/cc = 7.6E7 MGO. A factor about 2 million times greater than the energy density of the magnets. Unless I seriously misunderstand magnets, then I think this rules out energy stored in the magnets during their creation. (MGO = Mega Gauss Oersted, an energy density measure). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 16:21:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SNLk6O027941; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:21:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SNLhL2027896; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:21:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:21:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <88t6f2ptn3m20rd00c8pjumka2qfe3uqsk 4ax.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How about running reverse speech analysis on the interviews with Steorn? I've tried it with my own speech and it seems to work. The truth emerges from it unless it's a rehearsed speech, and the reversals seem to come out of the coughs, repeats, and other innocuous sounds in the speech. I've liked the idea that politicians can never lie when reversed :) . http://www.reversespeech.com Check out some of Bill Clinton's and O.J.Simpsons reversals. Hoyt Stearns Jr. Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 16:39:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SNcveT005836; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:38:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7SNcs4j005799; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:38:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:38:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ijJ18enBrWINsdGwdK7j2DbZFO2QDJAnEIHf9BfJpVQwFvSJgdaCZe3gATulz3BuK55h3YOPJcNdkRvA3+hhhxw8tu0fd1DIdOwHT1kOsrMGuBVfh72rhv8eZk1DKTtEF+Wn7yInUjdD/HfXxCbPPZeZidZrZcT3ZKtbfV+GvFU= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:38:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/28/06, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Given that they claim to already have a device that not only > self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think > measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or > it's real. Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it includes the actual overunity device: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 18:27:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T1QqMn030351; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:26:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T1Qp1S030332; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:26:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:26:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fe5kRrVfn7Dwv0pE77TKatYb7Dhg6QQsHsPRabj6W+uoWfUZq4+FJ5Qm3PlXDmz9Pv5C8VPgolXy5jWXQmfieiwXwgjUM8/53wP74vGRDFSykOk5diFjSSc5YGgYd4+IYaJJs+pZpPIdCDkkFzaBV0RPnl3/QR+UfLIaVFFcxNE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:26:51 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: [Vo]: Steorn Status: RO X-Status: A ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Harry Veeder Date: Aug 28, 2006 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn To: Terry Blanton Terry, please fwd. to vortex-L since the list appears to be treating my email as spam. William Beaty wrote: > > Neodymium magnets are famous for such effects: specifically, if two alike > poles of NIB magnets are forced together, there is a kind of "frictional" > energy loss as the magnets suddenly weaken. As I understand it, if we > throw two NIB magnets together hard enough, they bounce inelastically > but without ever touching, and they become very slightly warm. Will the magnetism weaken if two unlike poles are restrained from meeting? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 18:46:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T1jtkf009194; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:45:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T1jrmB009166; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:45:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:45:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YPolPUguy64roJHVRfHTOkbE1t8g29CULkbI/9wi9A8bRHIQQHuiR211uEEaNXLlVxE3hycu96n5KnlupoRoMGzUTRHEHkVfgNiiRt9b7p2rlWSrJAZDyOnECMv/BIYjwyHR0wJ8n3ui7gt2prEfDRn7pCQoXryVS+tCcJLF2y4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:45:52 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/28/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it > includes the actual overunity device: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Sean McCarthy was on FoxNews: http://www.foxnews.com/cavuto/ Click on "Endless Energy Supply" Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 19:11:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T2B0XG021310; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:11:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T2Axbg021290; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:10:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:10:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=P5WvDEMSiERDT4OSuT3Ez5+sOWgDc+ys2jEAnBLEu6A6+67V431zcoLMiHjwW+fByyco5/WHy8MtWO18Fq7GSEw5/nG+Jr7Xk7Ydz6rTCNT10OK3zPAio2A3EvZvFFbVhQChjjSRaKvNZMgYNFnvfXJvlUGXxTFSWycUEcpuzVc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:10:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT] Let the Punishment Fit the Crime Status: RO X-Status: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/28082006/344/saddam-s-cartoon-capers.html ROFLMAO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park:_Bigger,_Longer_&_Uncut From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 19:19:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T2J6WB025288; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:19:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T2J4v8025260; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:19:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:19:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GYoKOHWn52iL3wgh14/Cud3/2xP1Yj1gRi11hHEjP0fthhQksjY+rZncSj07Uaa0SZzZ2sfPq7j+GD5fkuPhO0v30LnfsrJOTnZFp3w5s3bk35SfsDpiiDVlIn21Yl65LJjFvfhmV+xGTs3X0S+/mEmMMLcTRYCAQCKOV1oQ/Zk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:19:04 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Let the Punishment Fit the Crime In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/28/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/28082006/344/saddam-s-cartoon-capers.html > > ROFLMAO! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park:_Bigger,_Longer_&_Uncut You insensitive ba$tard! Terry "Amnot, R2, amnot, R2" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 21:53:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T4raFf003391; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:53:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T4rU4T003350; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:53:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:53:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:53:27 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:53:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7T4rR9Y003318 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: (fwd) Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please post for me? Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded on behalf of Mark Goldes. On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700, "Mark Goldes" wrote: >To: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au >Subject: Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please post for me? >From: "Mark Goldes" >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700 >Bcc: > > > >>From: postmaster mail.hotmail.com >>To: mgoldes msn.com >>Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) >>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:09 -0700 >> >>This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. >> >>Delivery to the following recipients failed. >> >> vortex-l eskimo.com >> >> >> > > > > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! >From: "Mark Goldes" >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 >Bcc: > >Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.175.15]) by bay0-omc2-s35.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 >Message-ID: >Received: from 65.54.175.200 by by104fd.bay104.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:10:02 GMT >X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] >X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] >X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com >In-Reply-To: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> >From: "Mark Goldes" >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Bcc: >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2006 23:10:06.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[19DC7910:01C6CAF7] >Return-Path: mgoldes msn.com > >I finally listened to the tape and while it is easy to see someone >misinterpreting what he said, there is no claim of self-running. > >What was said was they would run tests for long periods - weeks. But, these >were to determine if there was any change in the magnet strength and >temperature. > >As I have mentioned in much earlier posts, self-running, which seems simple >and obvious, never is with machines of this type. > >It is, of course, the ultimate test and a prerequisite for all commercial >devices. > >Mark > > >>From: Robin van Spaandonk >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net >>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:14:38 +1000 >> >>In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 >>-0700 (PDT): >>Hi, >>[snip] >> >It *could* be entirely real. Until more information comes in, the true >> >status is somewhere between "scam" and "genuine" and "measurement error" >> >(on a 3-axis graph!) >>[snip] >>Given that they claim to already have a device that not only >>self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think >>measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or >>it's real. >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >>Competition provides the motivation, >>Cooperation provides the means. >> > > > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 23:32:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T6W9oF012948; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:32:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T6W7f7012936; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:32:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.21] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Whoops! I was mistaken... Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:32:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2006 06:32:06.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8E25F90:01C6CB34] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, When I listened to McCarthy again, I realized he did indeed claim Steorn has self-sustaining machines. The Irish brogue and my lousy laptop audio distortion fooled me earlier. Mea Culpa, Mark >From: Robin van Spaandonk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: (fwd) Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will >you please post for me? >Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:53:27 +1000 > >Forwarded on behalf of Mark Goldes. > > >On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700, "Mark Goldes" > wrote: > > >To: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au > >Subject: Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please >post for me? > >From: "Mark Goldes" > >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:16:54 -0700 > >Bcc: > > > > > > > >>From: postmaster mail.hotmail.com > >>To: mgoldes msn.com > >>Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) > >>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:09 -0700 > >> > >>This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. > >> > >>Delivery to the following recipients failed. > >> > >> vortex-l eskimo.com > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! > >From: "Mark Goldes" > >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 > >Bcc: > > > >Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.175.15]) by >bay0-omc2-s35.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); > > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 > >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; > > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:06 -0700 > >Message-ID: > >Received: from 65.54.175.200 by by104fd.bay104.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; > > Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:10:02 GMT > >X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] > >X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] > >X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com > >In-Reply-To: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq 4ax.com> > >From: "Mark Goldes" > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >Bcc: > >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn not self-running! > >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:10:02 -0700 > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2006 23:10:06.0625 (UTC) >FILETIME=[19DC7910:01C6CAF7] > >Return-Path: mgoldes msn.com > > > >I finally listened to the tape and while it is easy to see someone > >misinterpreting what he said, there is no claim of self-running. > > > >What was said was they would run tests for long periods - weeks. But, >these > >were to determine if there was any change in the magnet strength and > >temperature. > > > >As I have mentioned in much earlier posts, self-running, which seems >simple > >and obvious, never is with machines of this type. > > > >It is, of course, the ultimate test and a prerequisite for all commercial > >devices. > > > >Mark > > > > > >>From: Robin van Spaandonk > >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net > >>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:14:38 +1000 > >> > >>In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:36:37 > >>-0700 (PDT): > >>Hi, > >>[snip] > >> >It *could* be entirely real. Until more information comes in, the >true > >> >status is somewhere between "scam" and "genuine" and "measurement >error" > >> >(on a 3-axis graph!) > >>[snip] > >>Given that they claim to already have a device that not only > >>self-sustains, but puts out excess power to boot, I think > >>measurement error is already ruled out. IOW it's either a scam, or > >>it's real. > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Robin van Spaandonk > >> > >>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >> > >>Competition provides the motivation, > >>Cooperation provides the means. > >> > > > > > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 00:34:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T7XaIg006624; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:33:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T7XWgw006578; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:33:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:33:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: (fwd) Tried to send this to vortex, but it bounced. Will you please post for me? Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:33:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:33:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7T7XNYX006472 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:53:27 +1000: Hi, After listening again (as carefully as possible) I have come up with the following. (BTW Steve are you in a position to post any of the data Sean sent you, or are you now bound by the NDA?) [snip] >>I finally listened to the tape and while it is easy to see someone >>misinterpreting what he said, there is no claim of self-running. At approx. 26 minutes into the interview, Sean (talking through Steve) says that the device is self-sustaining (very hard to hear). However this is also obvious if it does 600 cycles without intervention (and concurrently lifts weights etc.). >> >>What was said was they would run tests for long periods - weeks. But, these >>were to determine if there was any change in the magnet strength and >>temperature. Sean has the rather confusing habit of using "will" and "would" where others might use "is" or "was". In short use of these verbs does not (in this case) imply future tense. The tests have already been run. However not in one continuous go. What they have done is a series of runs of up to 600 cycles/run over a period of weeks (27:50 into the file). Note also that there is no deliberate input power to these devices, other than that supplied by hand when initially positioning the device at the starting point in the cycle. (However one can't physically put more energy in at one time by hand than can be retrieved in a single cycle, so this certainly wouldn't explain the ability to run for 600 cycles). Series runs are cumulative, that is to say, the output energy is cumulative, and the only energy input is the positioning energy by the hand at the start (at most 1/600 of the energy for a 600 cycle run). This might not be true if the machine were "put together" by hand every time, but is true if the hand is only used to fix the position within the cycle. Unfortunately they don't specify the rpm at which they ran, so we can't get an actual energy output / run. However working backwards from 40 MGO magnets, 1 cc, and 500 mW, we get that such a device would only be able to supply 500 mW for 0.637 seconds based purely on the energy density of the magnet itself. Clearly 600 cycle runs are lasting (much) longer than this. BTW at one point Sean was trying to say (but being interrupted by Steve) that the energy output / cycle is a constant, but the power output can be varied by increasing or decreasing the rpm (i.e. more rpm x fixed energy / revolution => more power output). What I do find strange is that it doesn't "run away" when unloaded? >> >>As I have mentioned in much earlier posts, self-running, which seems simple >>and obvious, never is with machines of this type. >> >>It is, of course, the ultimate test and a prerequisite for all commercial >>devices. >> >>Mark Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 00:40:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7T7eXtA010323; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:40:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7T7eWxO010297; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:40:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:40:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:40:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5eq6f219j0q174eicpj2l6v7jdtlqe0ujq@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.57] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:40:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7T7eTep010261 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:38:51 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it >includes the actual overunity device: > >http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Now if only it were a movie, with the rig on a glass table, visible in its entirety, and with no human near it. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 04:33:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TBXRno025148; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:33:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TBXP96025125; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:33:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:33:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M8yiLllCOBTvy8xG7lBwgN5g3wEbZhqRUFoc/ffmD3zEUOjRkke6QfZNlL9dOo1bUK2/LE9/ep+wcvoeQOeNxKzbk8PA4DeOCr32zWOyyhvq3S9MnQ1am3raUVqBBo09FOcO2uY64HpE2gBtjNfGJPlw/Vg3itZotMgbUTTU5Mc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:32:57 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Whoops! I was mistaken... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:08:16 +0100 To: terry1094 yahoo.com From: "Grimer" Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Subject: RE: [Vo]: Whoops! I was mistaken... Sorry to trouble you Terry. This bounced. Could you forward it to Vort. Ta. 8-) -------------------------------------------- At 11:32 pm 28/08/2006 -0700, Mark wrote: >Vo, > >When I listened to McCarthy again, I realized he did indeed claim Steorn has >self-sustaining machines. The Irish brogue and my lousy laptop audio >distortion fooled me earlier. > >Mea Culpa, > >Mark Miseratur vestri omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis vestris, perducat vos ad vitam aeternam. ;-) Frank -------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 05:21:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TCLQO8017141; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:21:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TCLPXM017118; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:21:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:21:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001801c6cb65$9a7d0da0$e0027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: "Grimer" Cc: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:21:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CB3B.B0FEDEC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Question Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CB3B.B0FEDEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy Frank, Are you being blocked by vortex or is this an example of our esteemed = intelligence ( or lack thereof) heirarchy in government? One requires a steady input of " the Grimer" complete with latin verbage = to survive in the rural parts of Texas where rumors and suspicions = abound that Santa Ana and General Grant have signed a trade agreement = with WalMart and our Confederate money could loose 10% of it's value = overnight. OUr best, Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CB3B.B0FEDEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy Frank,
 
Are you being blocked by vortex or is = this an=20 example of our esteemed intelligence ( or lack thereof) heirarchy in=20 government?
One requires a steady input of " the = Grimer"=20 complete with latin verbage to survive in the rural parts of Texas where = rumors=20 and  suspicions abound that Santa Ana and General Grant have signed = a trade=20 agreement with WalMart and our Confederate money could loose 10% of it's = value=20 overnight.
 
OUr best,
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C6CB3B.B0FEDEC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 07:27:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TEQvv8023907; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:26:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TEQutP023885; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:26:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:26:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:24:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: test Status: O X-Status: please ignore this test message harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 08:34:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TFYH2O032320; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:34:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TFYGe0032300; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:34:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:34:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=pewLRQBm8Oi7G+Bisqdyg4+G4rRNE0mzaRr68x1Q6V8fSWyCyyvIprD2AB5Yy4oXuXm1E5aLbQr77x8L6ex+zxFhAICkU2v6iSgSF28lhirUKOhCk9XCFGs4dJXNFQLBBt8logxZY4C6t/1vIr6f1MzleImlWJIWXbzBFWfw018= ; Message-ID: <000501c6cb80$945ad130$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:34:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: QED Status: O X-Status: Listen up, hot-rod hedonists (the ones with a guilty conscience) ... What about a "Green" Eco-car [don't frown yet] ... yup, it's green but it accelerates from 0-60 mph in less than 5 seconds, blowing away any US "muscle-car" on the road; and yet with the potential for zero emissions ? QED Yes ... err, no, this is not merely the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" [the snobby vision of BTDT] ... or rather yes, it is both the phrase, since the car has been shown already - and the car itself - which is named: QED. PML's In-Wheel Motor, Plug-in Series Hybrid MINI 25 August 2006 The MINI QED. "PML Flightlink and its partner Synergy Innovations recently unveiled an in-wheel, plug-in series hybrid conversion of a MINI at the British Motor Show, the MINI QED." The QED uses four 750 Nm brushless permanent motors in its wheels, a 21 kWh lithium-polymer battery pack and a 250cc two-cylinder, four-stroke engine as the genset. The QED supports an all-electric range of 200-250 miles and has a total range of about 932 miles (1,500 km). PML is working on the engine component and may change it in the near future. Emission testing is part of that process. END ... cite/site: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/pmls_inwheel_mo.html ...well, I hope they are working to dump the engine and add the small Wankel instead - the one which will burn hydrogen or biofuel or both.... And wouldn't you know it -- QED -- yup a big-BTDT on that one also: "Moller Delivers Better than SULEV with Ethanol-Fueled Rotary Engine" 10 August 2006 Moller Rotapower Engine Moller International, the developer of the Skycar aircraft, the Rotapower line of Wankel-type rotary engines and the Aerobot line of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV), has achieved emission levels below California SULEV standards in recent tests of the Rotapower engine fueled by ethanol without exhaust aftertreatment. The 530cc engine tested produced 22 hp at 4500 rpm with an air/fuel ratio of 20 and lambda of 1.35. The fuel was E95 with 5% acetone added plus a synthetic lubricant together with some castor bean oil. The toxic emission levels with ethanol were as follows: Unburned hydrocarbons (HC) = .5 ppm or .0043 gm/hp-hr Carbon monoxide (CO) = 9 ppm or .03 gm/hp-hr Nitrous oxide (NOx) = 3 ppm or .016 gm/hp-hr The carbon dioxide produced was 11%-25% lower than with gasoline. Previous tests of the Rotapower engine using gasoline were witnessed by Dr. Andy Burke from the Institute of Transportation Studies (ITS) at the University of California in Davis. These tests showed that with gasoline the Rotapower engine produced toxic emissions below the ultra low emission vehicle level (ULEV) without using an exhaust aftertreatment (no catalytic converter required). Moller developed an early version of the Rotapower engine some 20 years ago-based on the rotary snowmobile engine acquired in 1985 from Outboard Marine Corporation-for the Skycar aircraft, a four-person Personal Air Vehicle (PAV) designed for both Vertical Takeoff and Landing Vehicle (VTOL) and high-speed (350 mph) forward flight. Moller developed a number of enhancements, including a new intake and porting arrangement, a new fuel-injection system, and a proprietary composite coating that reduces fuel consumption and cooling load. The Rotapower engine is a multi-fuel compatible engine and in testing various fuels including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, and various types of alcohol, Moller found that the engine ran coolest and cleanest on ethanol. Moller has developed a variety of rotary engines from 1.5 to 300 horsepower, and now recommends that they all be run on ethanol when available. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/moller_delivers.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 08:39:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TFd1uX002760; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:39:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TFcxvM002735; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:38:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:38:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c6cb81$37a72b40$0200a8c0 user> From: "Noel D. Whitney" To: Subject: [Vo]:test Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:38:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C6CB89.9442C640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C6CB89.9442C640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please ignore - test only Noel whitney in Ireland ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C6CB89.9442C640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please ignore - test only
Noel whitney in Ireland =
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C6CB89.9442C640-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 09:35:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TGZUGg004127; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:35:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TGNgNe030382; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:23:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:23:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eNwEueg6IXBeN7p6oXaB2n3DMPf5W3/afaDWAJU6utXNaYss18uMmup6XpaY0uIXbNJCJ+6J85i4iugNOsR5hULhG/DfsNJN1kVS/DvdjK8XCvypaG9uoANkJIGyK6ID92+lesoLAQmUsUFAUvXsJSo+/TVJ3rAIGGpYZ8UPa/U= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:23:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: QED In-Reply-To: <000501c6cb80$945ad130$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000501c6cb80$945ad130$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/29/06, Jones Beene wrote: > PML is working on the engine component and may change it in the > near future. Emission testing is part of that process. END ... > cite/site: > http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/pmls_inwheel_mo.html Well, they must find a way for it to leak oil or the Brits won't buy it. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 10:05:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TH07FO020173; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:05:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TGqNt4015335; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=dQgsf7Wq6ivAd+XzXdoTqaiJjFgfOyyveN39MP1nsXBTnr2Z5AARxiDTims9iG8s7LFkQ6WN+0ZjL7BM6rV5l9BXnsWGZy3Flrvhtn1ppKmFHhV+je99JTfDsMo+uVEyawFnR0olQhvA2KJqrzWjFCKoKhob41dGzR102FcdqDM= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: [Vo]: Sincere amateurs: Steorn.net Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:53:46 +0100 Message-ID: <00cf01c6cb8b$b21c7560$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbLPvXdzjhbQBteTuOJsoWGQ5l+yAAS19Qg In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A These guys are *sincere* but mistaken amateurs. *This is not how science is conducted.* Where are the arrows, descriptions for that photograph (http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg), numbers, graphs, schematics evidence of intellectual enquiry to compare with current knowledge? It reminds me of people playing with gyroscopes and perching one on the end of their fingers and convincing themselves that they have an anti-gravity machine. Everybody in the field now gets tarred with the same brush much as F-P did for CF (too soon hold back, not all publicity is good publicity - patience). Everyone in this field now looks a dick. Well done lads. Most science is steady hard work with Eureka moments, 99% perspiration 1% inspiration. All in all "a turd in the punch bowl" to use that pungent Americanism. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: 29 August 2006 08:40 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn.net In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:38:51 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Here's a closeup of the Steorn test rig. It is unclear whether it >includes the actual overunity device: > >http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn_test_rig.jpg Now if only it were a movie, with the rig on a glass table, visible in its entirety, and with no human near it. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 10:09:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TH8t7W025643; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:08:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TH8s2e025627; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:08:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index; b=JyLMBAMjKJcRV58VPhFQV7zN37XQQbvqZqXGYHgDuZLZyBoW5VttiWwr1MmmZoZOcCLUa5K+z5Ls2oK9DGpgfa0ydlx8BxhWpy2irhxBzBDAhE7Gz2MnU5MnppXlVjJf0QAtAUASIfekEnKa2XAcOUzfweKQnDCqOinnZM9mshQ= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: [Vo]: Sincere *lazy* amateurs: Steorn.net Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:10:20 +0100 Message-ID: <00d501c6cb8e$02d7f5e0$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C6CB96.649C5DE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbLjgA0ZCv+5ciTQbKcFD2nTS7V0Q== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C6CB96.649C5DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Furthermore these guys are lazy. They can't be bothered to do proper research so they kick up a stink to try and force people into investigating it for them. They should have least saved the money, *hired* a good electronic engineer, engineering scientist or experimental physicist and *waited* before going public with solid data and well documented evidence. In short they should have got a skilled researcher to guide them. What's the rush? Their patent agent says can't break confidentiality so wait until the filing is in. Probably not frauds, just lazy, gullible bumkins way out of their depth. ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C6CB96.649C5DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Furthermore these guys are = lazy.

 

They can’t be bothered to do proper research so = they kick up a stink to try and force people into investigating it for = them.

 

They should have least saved the money, *hired* a good electronic engineer, engineering scientist or experimental physicist and *waited* before going public with solid data and well documented evidence. In short they should have got a skilled researcher = to guide them.

 

What’s the rush? Their patent agent says = can’t break confidentiality so wait until the filing is = in.

 

Probably not frauds, just lazy, gullible bumkins way = out of their depth.

 

------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C6CB96.649C5DE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 11:56:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TIoEnH031957; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:56:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7THnDXb019009; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:49:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=plPjgitOEHKfNvMVIEP0mM03UhoZznbLzLToV/IdN1rEm9v4UuwmiYoJhCb2L+w4441OKcM34tXuPJVk8WMHhhv9Tu4lcKqyqg5l7wMeiciK2j4Yr2rA7hJa76mMwDWGm+KEDKFBlJy2PybEAdjkOpla1NdLFlbzczULPgJSQKo= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:48:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: How Steorn Works Status: RO X-Status: A >From Steve's interview and close examination of the test rig image, I believe I know how the Steorn machine works. Note the large aluminum disk has what appears to be four threaded holes around it's perimeter. Also note that to the left of the disk are threaded holes in the supporting mechanism. I believe four NeFeBo magnets are attached to the disk in 90 degree increments and one Neo is attached to the supporting mechanism. A mumetal shield is arranged with a camming device such that when the disk is rotated by hand, the attractive force of the magnets adds momentum to the disk. When the rotor magnet is nearest the stator magnet, the cam drops the shield between the magnets sending the disk over the "sticky point". The cam then lifts the shield and the next magnet approaches. They had to convince themselves that they could generate energy so a worm gear is added to the drive shaft. This drives a large pulley which is belted to a small pulley. The mechanical energy drives a generator which subsequently drives a motor. In a similar gear/pully arrangement they drive another shaft. If you look in the foreground of that shaft you will see a mechanical brake which can add a load to the driven shaft using the brass screw. Speed sensors are on the ends of each shaft. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 13:19:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TKIhNW000983; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:18:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TKIcts000909; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:18:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:18:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-ME-UUID: 20060829201829571.8B632B800087 mwinf3211.me.freeserve.com Message-Id: <2.2.32.20060829201830.009fcb30 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:18:30 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, terry1094@yahoo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:48 pm 29/08/2006 -0400, you wrote: >From Steve's interview and close examination of the test rig image, I >believe I know how the Steorn machine works. > >Note the large aluminum disk has what appears to be four threaded >holes around it's perimeter. Also note that to the left of the disk >are threaded holes in the supporting mechanism. I believe four NeFeBo >magnets are attached to the disk in 90 degree increments and one Neo >is attached to the supporting mechanism. > >A mumetal shield is arranged with a camming device such that when the >disk is rotated by hand, the attractive force of the magnets adds >momentum to the disk. When the rotor magnet is nearest the stator >magnet, the cam drops the shield between the magnets sending the disk >over the "sticky point". The cam then lifts the shield and the next >magnet approaches. > >They had to convince themselves that they could generate energy so a >worm gear is added to the drive shaft. This drives a large pulley >which is belted to a small pulley. The mechanical energy drives a >generator which subsequently drives a motor. In a similar gear/pully >arrangement they drive another shaft. If you look in the foreground >of that shaft you will see a mechanical brake which can add a load to >the driven shaft using the brass screw. Speed sensors are on the ends >of each shaft. > >Just my opinion, I could be wrong. > >Terry Sounds good to me Terry. Well done mate. 8-) Frank I'm sending this to you direct - as well as Vort in case Vort don't get through. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 13:55:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TKsmhr028164; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TKskAi028133; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:54:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,183,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="42456284:sNHT18513876" Message-ID: <44F4A992.6070504 teksavvy.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:54:42 -0400 From: peatbog User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5wgJBD.A.h3G.VmK9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Terry Blanton wrote: >> From Steve's interview and close examination of the test rig image, I > believe I know how the Steorn machine works. > > Note the large aluminum disk has what appears to be four threaded > holes around it's perimeter. Also note that to the left of the disk > are threaded holes in the supporting mechanism. I believe four NeFeBo > magnets are attached to the disk in 90 degree increments and one Neo > is attached to the supporting mechanism. > > A mumetal shield is arranged with a camming device such that when the > disk is rotated by hand, the attractive force of the magnets adds > momentum to the disk. When the rotor magnet is nearest the stator > magnet, the cam drops the shield between the magnets sending the disk > over the "sticky point". The cam then lifts the shield and the next > magnet approaches. > > They had to convince themselves that they could generate energy so a > worm gear is added to the drive shaft. This drives a large pulley > which is belted to a small pulley. The mechanical energy drives a > generator which subsequently drives a motor. In a similar gear/pully > arrangement they drive another shaft. If you look in the foreground > of that shaft you will see a mechanical brake which can add a load to > the driven shaft using the brass screw. Speed sensors are on the ends > of each shaft. > > Just my opinion, I could be wrong. > > Terry > I thought that anything that blocked a magnet's attraction was also attracted to it, so that there is extra work needed to insert or remove the shield from between the magnets. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 14:20:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TLKK91011712; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:20:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TLKJFc011701; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:20:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OlIw9sFMZXYcSQYeCo4IhUAE5aLSh6kPtHYDsRjGEuJp4awFDbUsew+jbk34u4Ui4euY7n7FreYLFdmpVh4E5WE/KUIqDJPxvj9Gi1TUgDrkMMpOGZpiPquem8Rz7p57SLv9vyOcGA7vlcnlHWmQ5A2dNFZdgo6wQBBkUgRKrjw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:20:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: <44F4A992.6070504 teksavvy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44F4A992.6070504 teksavvy.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/29/06, peatbog wrote: > I thought that anything that blocked a magnet's attraction was also > attracted to it, so that there is extra work needed to insert or > remove the shield from between the magnets. Mumetal does not "block" the field. Once mumetal saturates the field is diverted around the mumetal. It "distorts" the field. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 14:55:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TLtOKi032567; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:55:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TLtNTh032541; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:55:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:55:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jGtBCWq9r+0k5YxjYzsahro+Lw6uqU1gXwgnmKjE+dXei8kd9gbIM3RqbFsM/wI4YklQ+odRMwneqQ6yxt54PVUfxsLag1hBTIz6NBfVlJfaF2RVq1ATgwO4J4NqlyvhPMCLIrwW1M0ZjKS1aLX1DFTDTm9LcO77FHSu0caBCJ4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:43:42 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20060829201830.009fcb30 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20060829201830.009fcb30 pop.freeserve.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/29/06, Grimer wrote: > Sounds good to me Terry. Well done mate. 8-) > > Frank > > I'm sending this to you direct - as well as Vort in > case Vort don't get through. Thanks, Grimey. And welcome back to Vortex! :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 15:11:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TMBDma011399; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:11:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TMB7aK011362; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:11:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:11:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:11:01 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sincere amateurs: Steorn.net In-Reply-To: <00cf01c6cb8b$b21c7560$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> Message-ID: References: <00cf01c6cb8b$b21c7560$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Remi Cornwall wrote: > These guys are *sincere* but mistaken amateurs. > > *This is not how science is conducted.* If they're keeping it secret, then it's not science, instead it's business (i.e. inventors, corporate R&D, etc.) As Feynman pointed out, the essence of science is bend-over-backwards honesty, nothing hidden, no holds barred truthfulness. If Steorn has a genuine discovery, that's very sad. If some science amateurs got hold of it first, we'd immediately see the plans posted at makezine.com On the same topic: as a scientist, Nikola Tesla was a real slimeball, since he apparently discovered x-rays several years before Roentgen, but didn't announce the discovery. Tesla was keeping the discovery secret while working on it. Then Tesla's lab burned down, then Roentgen discovered the same thing and spread the discovery worldwide almost overnight. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 15:14:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TMDpjs013666; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:13:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TMDn5Y013634; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:13:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:13:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Terry Blanton wrote: > A mumetal shield is arranged with a camming device such that when the > disk is rotated by hand, the attractive force of the magnets adds > momentum to the disk. When the rotor magnet is nearest the stator > magnet, the cam drops the shield between the magnets sending the disk > over the "sticky point". The cam then lifts the shield and the next > magnet approaches. If so, then perhaps the conductive parts create a large inductive drag, which keeps things from spinning fast. If the effect is genuine, then plastic parts and nonconductor supermagnets (composite "rubber" supermagnets) might make a big difference. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 15:16:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TMGOeG015722; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:16:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TMGMDO015698; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:16:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:16:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:16:18 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: <44F4A992.6070504 teksavvy.com> Message-ID: References: <44F4A992.6070504 teksavvy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, peatbog wrote: > I thought that anything that blocked a magnet's attraction was also > attracted to it, so that there is extra work needed to insert or > remove the shield from between the magnets. If you give the system a spin, then a shield can move in and out (which would make the wheel turn jerkily, but not halt.) It's like throwing a train car down a track which goes over a series of hills. If it can make it past the first hill, then it probably can make it past all the others too. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 15:32:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TMU3Rt024297; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TMOdT8020584; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:24:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:24:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mLaUbTEAaBx29fnCVkXLR2eMmbSYQ98aa+RolTtkmjbGkGCkEs9GaNgykgd1EuJvqZ7V6HS/BvmhQpF3dn/sXuZG0CXdMhiQmitjs6cFKTIFavQ911gL++t/iw0l2hL/s5XRUoi47E12OMRkxUYdn1Us4+ksEGkbgJN3zqeiDJ0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:24:13 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <7u8RTC.A.bBF.l6L9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/29/06, William Beaty wrote: > If so, then perhaps the conductive parts create a large inductive drag, > which keeps things from spinning fast. If the effect is genuine, then > plastic parts and nonconductor supermagnets (composite "rubber" > supermagnets) might make a big difference. Yah, Billbo. I was going to suggest to Sean that his rotor disk be made of PVC. However, he seems to be doing fine without my help. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 15:41:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TMfQ0w031960; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:41:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TMfNOb031923; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:41:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:41:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <00cf01c6cb8b$b21c7560$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: steornwatch.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a news site/forum that was mentioned on Straight Dope: http://www.steornwatch.com Of course if Steorn is really a publicity stunt for a TV show, then the above site could also be part of it. And... I still wonder what the story was with SMOT. Why go to all that trouble? Why not just divulge ALL evidence. Send out the damn videotapes right at the start? Hide nothing? Parksie might have got it right: it starts out as a mistake, then because the inventors aren't familiar with need for ruthless honesty, they naturally tell lies in order to avoid looking bad in public. Then they need bigger lies to cover up the small ones, and it blows up, rapidly going "from foolishness to fraud." The practices of science were evolved to solve this problem. It's simple: progress in understanding and discovery is far more important than making money. So don't hide things, don't lie, and if you make a mistake, announce it immediately so others aren't misled. But the inventors' community can't fix the problem since their philosophy is the opposite. Inventors have to hide things, and deluding the customer is a valuable technique, and looking good is far more important than telling the truth. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 16:15:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7TNFKuj016671; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:15:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7TNFJPP016639; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:15:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:15:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iuSCO1MvLdUxQ9QKuvqqQHsxQn+cA7xeF12ilmsFv7ANyHKY53W5dljFrkMX1iQer/ni0vXPaMCXzDWTaEX3G3EAaZWGiECS+qoxxyawOuzrDzrurcSR5QQSaON7Cm8BsLMmQ6gBcnPmvGRM+CX4ZgigK8O3E2lSbSj08wD64bc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:15:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/29/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Yah, Billbo. I was going to suggest to Sean that his rotor disk be > made of PVC. However, he seems to be doing fine without my help. :-) "Others" have requested more details: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Steorn.doc Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 02:10:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7U9Aofb016704; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:10:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7U9An9t016685; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:10:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:10:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=f94Ev6TPbvtY7p1jhZX9IYHTTkiHYKGXh2spSKAkbvdjTLgUKB1lu7nJ0fHCqQpVnEPh5AAqR7E/ZV2ysle+mUJogA8IsufLcMi3LFXzWNqB6LjzvQuVVyRUCbZgLW3hS6PYKF24W1YZ34+d9b5l0h0Ytf/re5NBOTZDbEnMWrU= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: How Steorn Works Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:12:15 +0100 Message-ID: <00e601c6cc14$63f60e80$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbLsVtqYFxl3OMkRqqkCOuAgf0Q2gAYusfw In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <8rRXFD.A.lEE.YYV9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Incorrect. Below saturation it will have a low reluctance and so form a preferential path for the flux. Above saturation it looks like air again. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum gmail.com] Sent: 29 August 2006 22:20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works On 8/29/06, peatbog wrote: > I thought that anything that blocked a magnet's attraction was also > attracted to it, so that there is extra work needed to insert or > remove the shield from between the magnets. Mumetal does not "block" the field. Once mumetal saturates the field is diverted around the mumetal. It "distorts" the field. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 02:13:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7U9CvjI017886; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:12:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7U9CtPB017865; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:12:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:12:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=pkQ7IPAjWQjMJU+VSbnq/7FByXTaDKNl6RJKepWpNuAdJkxOoe4YDzS8LDoYjNz+fAmxcJSlCpgVf6pU5En8Yo1aBf8GobbeFYXpi7xINUopJjsNf5THf1/BRkIcUWLe3dqlODr0vOc11W+cPHYoOdeZcx7bNXLEUkuBxKlpeOA= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: How Steorn Works Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:14:19 +0100 Message-ID: <00e701c6cc14$af6bfd20$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbLuSjE2atPtnshTMOFIGjMo6o75QAW186w In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Remember SMOT? The ball was put in a position of high potential magnetic energy that's why it made it up the ramp back to the start. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: 29 August 2006 23:16 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: How Steorn Works On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, peatbog wrote: > I thought that anything that blocked a magnet's attraction was also > attracted to it, so that there is extra work needed to insert or > remove the shield from between the magnets. If you give the system a spin, then a shield can move in and out (which would make the wheel turn jerkily, but not halt.) It's like throwing a train car down a track which goes over a series of hills. If it can make it past the first hill, then it probably can make it past all the others too. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 02:32:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7U9WgAe028077; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:32:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7U9L2Dj022515; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:21:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:21:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=nZoHXJQd9OldO8N97tps7NP9gn79K+rKMlr3NBoAYjcnDPS0FUJ2D3S8DVT9e0ZuCogKZLIZXEYtkY9QdjtPlJ9/wxk2QNPgCNSS2ThGh7KylDkK0lWUxUsctDk6Xpu5rgc6A4EUByODlL1fH89cRA1APYkyUAV0hs9aD4vSOHQ= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: steornwatch.com Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:22:27 +0100 Message-ID: <00e801c6cc15$d0e89200$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbLvNqxOH9O9mGcS+CMaIuU/XUeBAAV/sJQ In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, Terry et al, You absolutely right. As regards money, secrecy and crap we'll because humans haven't evolved enough to corporate, to seek justice and reward all fairly laws of contract and property have to get in the way to have the game played fairly. If all the money the state takes that goes into the university system and government labs isn't spent fairly seeking new ideas and treating those who dedicate their lives to it fairly then they must rely on the free-market system. I noticed one research group (well several doing bogus research) at uni. researching female ejaculation as it was announced on the email public address system. What a waste of money. The best thing is for visionaries/ideas people to form a consortium of engineers/scientists (much as Steorn) and cut every worker in, pay every worker a salary and give every worker equity. Kind of socialism within capitalist constraints: you look after the founders and the workforce. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: 29 August 2006 23:41 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: steornwatch.com Here's a news site/forum that was mentioned on Straight Dope: http://www.steornwatch.com Of course if Steorn is really a publicity stunt for a TV show, then the above site could also be part of it. And... I still wonder what the story was with SMOT. Why go to all that trouble? Why not just divulge ALL evidence. Send out the damn videotapes right at the start? Hide nothing? Parksie might have got it right: it starts out as a mistake, then because the inventors aren't familiar with need for ruthless honesty, they naturally tell lies in order to avoid looking bad in public. Then they need bigger lies to cover up the small ones, and it blows up, rapidly going "from foolishness to fraud." The practices of science were evolved to solve this problem. It's simple: progress in understanding and discovery is far more important than making money. So don't hide things, don't lie, and if you make a mistake, announce it immediately so others aren't misled. But the inventors' community can't fix the problem since their philosophy is the opposite. Inventors have to hide things, and deluding the customer is a valuable technique, and looking good is far more important than telling the truth. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 02:49:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7U9nEjf002643; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:49:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7U9nDfL002620; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:49:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=FvLNGhyHgzoxFnYqZuz1XjCIvXYN4/LnYGhARTbroI5ycxdY0YQveK56h08yI0qZGwyzcECxOYTESJ3P4aTReqiOnm3ynb31maGR5BV4ESGNtVAbU40OIPVGYB7F7z95Tt8wXeJnl1iOX8JqehOSxoVPfl1tTErO47B1KoifCGk= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:49:11 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_93825_3664579.1156931351131" Resent-Message-ID: <67W84D.A.yo.Y8V9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: BBGB... anyone Have any? Storme? Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_93825_3664579.1156931351131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear vo., Does ANYONE, Have any Hard ball ...nuts and bolts ..belt and suspenders BBGB or BLOW BY GRINDING BLOW pictures and or description of the Steorem ... .uh... engine..... generator... thing...? Is this too difficult a question? If so why so? I would love to know .... Herma NB: How long will it be before we find no one can answer the simple request above? Or below..... Ranges: [1] NEVER GET AN ANSWER [2] NEVER GET A BET FOR A TIME WHEN THERE MIGHT BE AN ANSWER [3] SOME ANSWER (I hope there will be some answer) OR ...... Other..... ------=_Part_93825_3664579.1156931351131 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
  Dear vo.,
 
 Does ANYONE,
 
 Have any Hard ball ...nuts and bolts  ..belt and suspenders  BBGB or
BLOW BY GRINDING BLOW  pictures and or description of the  Steorem ...
 .uh... engine..... generator... thing...?
 
   Is this too difficult a question?
 
     If so why so?
 
       I would love to know ....
 
                               Herma
 
 NB:  How long will it be before we find no one can answer the simple request above?
 
      Or below.....
         Ranges:
         [1]  NEVER GET AN ANSWER
         [2]   NEVER GET A BET FOR  A TIME WHEN THERE MIGHT 
                BE AN ANSWER 
         [3]  SOME ANSWER  (I hope there will be some answer)
 
 
             OR ......
 
           Other..... 
------=_Part_93825_3664579.1156931351131-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 05:15:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UCFQP4000859; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:15:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UCFOFF000837; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:15:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c6cc2d$f26cd090$70027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: steornwatch.com Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:15:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6CC04.08992EB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6CC04.08992EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6CC04.089C3BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6CC04.089C3BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRemi wrote, >The best thing is for visionaries/ideas people to form a consortium of engineers/scientists (much as Steorn) and cut every worker in, pay every worker a salary and give every worker equity. Kind of socialism within capitalist constraints: you look after the = founders and the workforce. Howdy Remi, Don't work thata way.=20 The strong take it away from the weak and the smart take it away from = the strong. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6CC04.089C3BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Remi wrote,
 
>The best thing is for visionaries/ideas people to form a = consortium=20 of
engineers/scientists (much as Steorn) and cut every worker in, pay = every
worker a salary and give every worker equity.

Kind of = socialism=20 within capitalist constraints: you look after the founders
and the=20 workforce.
 
Howdy Remi,
 
Don't work thata way.
The strong take it away from the weak and the smart take it = away from=20 the strong.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C6CC04.089C3BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6CC04.08992EB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c6cc2d$f15b6090$70027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C6CC04.08992EB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 06:09:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UD8tad030122; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 06:08:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UD8si5030097; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 06:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 06:08:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=rT7soYQcC5pOPXj7KtNWvf9gY24NEH8Ko/Bn1UgaZOwjnc8uFJTzdaYFP8jVrvdbcFpdvagYJSYOyXCGtxGa9uJai+auVPggmtS2abqwRjP297n6ZHhm+rYzmVArYEaIJ4x96AdPequdImkM8q5U0LCPv1vTmQfAklBByDYLl2g= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [VO]:Re: steornwatch.com Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:08:46 +0100 Message-ID: <00ff01c6cc35$6fe4dac0$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0100_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbMLmmqpFPEzUQ6Sz653CxO3tTN6QABlfkQ In-Reply-To: <001401c6cc2d$f26cd090$70027841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: <0S7DTD.A.BWH.l3Y9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0101_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0101_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One can change things it needs strong leaders and people willing to get the job done, listen to advice and not to fight. _____ From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: 30 August 2006 13:15 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [VO]:Re: steornwatch.com Remi wrote, >The best thing is for visionaries/ideas people to form a consortium of engineers/scientists (much as Steorn) and cut every worker in, pay every worker a salary and give every worker equity. Kind of socialism within capitalist constraints: you look after the founders and the workforce. Howdy Remi, Don't work thata way. The strong take it away from the weak and the smart take it away from the strong. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0101_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

One can change things it needs strong leaders and people = willing to get the job done, listen to advice and not to = fight.

From:= RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]
Sent: 30 August 2006 = 13:15
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [VO]:Re: = steornwatch.com

 

Remi wrote,

 

>The best thing is for visionaries/ideas people to form = a consortium of
engineers/scientists (much as Steorn) and cut every worker in, pay = every
worker a salary and give every worker equity.

Kind of socialism within capitalist constraints: you look after the = founders
and the workforce.

 

Howdy Remi,

 

Don't work thata way.

The strong take it away from the weak and the smart = take it away from the strong.

 

Richard

 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0101_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C6CC3D.D1A942C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 09:40:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UGe51c023516; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:40:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UGe3ow023483; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:37:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: steornwatch.com In-reply-to: <00e801c6cc15$d0e89200$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Remi Cornwall wrote: > Bill, Terry et al, > > You absolutely right. > > As regards money, secrecy and crap we'll because humans haven't evolved > enough to corporate, to seek justice and reward all fairly laws of contract > and property have to get in the way to have the game played fairly. > Humans should incorporate. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 12:39:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UJdOL1018627; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:39:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UJdN2p018603; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:39:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:39:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200608301939.k7UJdHLh086405 mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:39:16 -0500 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: svj orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a59ac9cfd03038f4b66ea1b318d1af9d" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 66.168.30.131 Resent-Message-ID: <_2RvDB.A.niE.qle9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A --=_a59ac9cfd03038f4b66ea1b318d1af9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Hey Vorts,
>
> I just got off a 1-hour recorded phone interview with the CEO of Steorm. I have no idea what to make of the claims, nor do I expect any of us to know anything meaningful for months, perhaps years. Short of an apparent contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions - within the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the mp3 posted in a few days.
>


Hi Steve,

I've been away from my mail box for almost two weeks. We spent some of that time at the World Science Fiction Convention held in in Anaheim, Calif. Looks like I missed out on a lot of fun while I was unplugged.

Can you reveal where one can download the MP3 interview with Steorn. I can't find the link at the NET website.

Thanks,

If I get some time I might report on one or two discussion panels I attended at the convention. The one on "Fraud in Science" was particularly interesting. CF was brought up. Fortunately, not *AS* an example of fraud. I consider that progress... Step by step.

Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_a59ac9cfd03038f4b66ea1b318d1af9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


>


Hey Vorts,
>
>
I just got off a 1-hour recorded phone interview with the CEO of Steorm. I have no idea what to make of the claims, nor do I expect any of us to
know anything meaningful for months, perhaps years. Short of an apparent contradiction to accepted theories of physics, what I can say is that
McCarthy was extremely open, direct and responsive to my questions -
within the bounds of my own ignorance of his technology. I'll have the
mp3 posted in a few days.
>


Hi Steve,

I've been away from my mail box for almost two weeks. We= spent some of that time at the World Science Fiction Convention held in in= Anaheim, Calif. Looks like I missed out on a lot of fun while I was unplug= ged.

Can you reve= al where one can download the MP3 interview with Steorn. I can't find the l= ink at the NET website.

Thanks,

I= f I get some time I might report on one or two discussion panels I attended= at the convention. The one on "Fraud in Science" was particularl= y interesting. CF was brought up. Fortunately, not *AS* an example of fraud= . I consider that progress... Step by step.





Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_a59ac9cfd03038f4b66ea1b318d1af9d-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 13:43:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UKgpEH029028; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UKgoWP029015; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:42:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:42:44 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCF615 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Thread-Index: AcbMb2TOR+F2IfuITCSL8heAy+QHPQABLmwg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2006 20:42:48.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA8F60E0:01C6CC74] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7UKgljN028983 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I read about this effect and I don't understand it's relationship to supposed free energy. I've read stuff by Aspden about it and I don't comprehend why he sees this effect as having a bearing on free energy generation. On the other hand, I think he has some good points about "ether". If empty space has permittivity and offers radiation resistance, how can it be "nothing" or not involve some sort of medium? If we keep giving properties to the "vacuum", when do we return to it to being "ether"? If it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:03 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Vorts ! I am looking for an article... :) The Aspden Effect was first mentioned in an item that was published in the February 1995 issue of NEN (New Energy News). Vol 2, #10. pages 1, 2,... I have tried to order a back-copy . . . without success. The "effect" is anomalous angular momentum, some kind of virtual inertia- reported therein by Harold Aspden, and later described here: http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/Le30/le30.html * ORIGINAL PAPER : http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE8E.html CONTENTS FOR FEBRUARY 1995: Vol. 2, No. 10 DISCOVERY OF "VIRTUAL INERTIA" ................1 THE ASPDEN EFFECT .............................2 If anyone had a subscription at that time, may I please prevail upon you to obtain a copy? Thanks very much :) Best Regards, Colin Quinney crquin at rogers.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 15:18:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UMIGh9024463; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:18:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UMIAEl024430; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:18:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:18:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=fKtNxVfecRGJcNI1IdxZZaVAZlKU/y4G6sjS6DK1Kuo0go53JOEluXMGHsBmNuPpZQhF1ee1fZcdSj6u5rDp0vvJHYZUWV4jbBrzLhYVy+cobsugDAh56ngnl2P43B7+3mSvdCtr6GYsT+UX4xEpQf4jaLpErEgiBFCBLummmbM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:18:09 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Nice ICE Status: RO X-Status: The Scuderi split-cycle engine: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/autotech/0,71648-0.html?tw=wn_index_7 "If your next car gets twice the gas mileage of your current vehicle, and belches out only a fraction of the pollution, you may have Carmelo Scuderi to thank." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 14:01:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7UL1P39008710; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:01:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7UL1N9a008687; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:01:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:01:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=xdIan9zCR7Jg7mrXXfSCP1JmsqIyeu6Km7VF7jSdIvaMkMM7eToLeshHE84Z+KqFwCPGm+XU/uiJnp8w4WHzz6NekKLQYKSzSMffKPcSbeZgm94wFbukq+vKfo6gaRqkRi51AA2qQm5OyqBeKy6WeInGPwthiraccRJq/1qFCIs= ; Message-ID: <06ec01c6cc77$7182cd50$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCF615 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:01:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <7oUUx.A.nHC.jyf9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Chris, There are more aether theories out there than one can shake a stick at. Everybody has one, but I want to avoid the theorists (for now). I just wish to see the original description so hopefully I can build exactly that. ( But if I build it, will they come? ;) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aspden Effect >I read about this effect and I don't understand it's relationship to > supposed free energy. I've read stuff by Aspden about it and I don't > comprehend why > he sees this effect as having a bearing on free energy generation. > > On the other hand, I think he has some good points about "ether". If > empty space has permittivity and offers radiation resistance, how can it > be "nothing" > or not involve some sort of medium? If we keep giving properties to the > "vacuum", when do we return to it to being "ether"? > > If it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:03 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Aspden Effect > > Vorts ! > > I am looking for an article... :) > > The Aspden Effect was first mentioned in an item that was published in > the February 1995 issue of NEN (New Energy News). Vol 2, #10. pages 1, > 2,... > I have tried to order a back-copy . . . without success. > > The "effect" is anomalous angular momentum, some kind of virtual > inertia- reported therein by Harold Aspden, and later described here: > http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/Le30/le30.html > > * ORIGINAL PAPER : > http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE8E.html > CONTENTS FOR FEBRUARY 1995: Vol. 2, No. 10 > > DISCOVERY OF "VIRTUAL INERTIA" ................1 THE ASPDEN EFFECT > .............................2 > > If anyone had a subscription at that time, may I please prevail upon you > to obtain a copy? Thanks very much :) > > Best Regards, > Colin Quinney > crquin at rogers.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 17:08:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7V084Yd000805; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:08:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7V082tS000778; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:08:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:08:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <200608301939.k7UJdHLh086405 mail2.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: References: <200608301939.k7UJdHLh086405 mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: you can't patent an idea (steorm) Status: RO X-Status: The patent system is supposed to get inventors to give up their secrets. If you come up with a new product, we can protect it in exchange for publishing the information. Unfortunately this is not designed to handle new scientific discoveries. So when a business discovers a fundamental scientific advance (x-rays, for example,) things can get VERY screwy because the business can't patent x-rays. They can only patent all sorts of devices based on the discovery. Any sensible business would want to somehow keep x-rays a secret, since the discovery can't be protected by patents. Then they may or may not want to get patents on all the various x-ray devices they could sell. If a scientist discovers x-rays, he just announces it to the world. Maybe he benefits from the resulting fame, as with the discoverers of the laser. Or maybe he takes out patents and starts a company. Steorm are not behaving as scientists. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 18:38:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7V1cHQF025400; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:38:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7V1cFZw025361; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:38:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:35:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: you can't patent an idea (steorm) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > The patent system is supposed to get inventors to give up their secrets. > If you come up with a new product, we can protect it in exchange for > publishing the information. > > Unfortunately this is not designed to handle new scientific discoveries. > So when a business discovers a fundamental scientific advance (x-rays, for > example,) things can get VERY screwy because the business can't patent > x-rays. They can only patent all sorts of devices based on the discovery. > > Any sensible business would want to somehow keep x-rays a secret, since > the discovery can't be protected by patents. Then they may or may not > want to get patents on all the various x-ray devices they could sell. A business should not have to keep the reality of x-rays a secret since x-rays occur naturally and therefore can't be patented by anyone. Only an invented system for generating them can be patented. Likewise, I suspect if OU is real and exists naturally then it can't be patented. Harry > > > If a scientist discovers x-rays, he just announces it to the world. Maybe > he benefits from the resulting fame, as with the discoverers of the laser. > Or maybe he takes out patents and starts a company. > > > Steorm are not behaving as scientists. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 19:22:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7V2MIQ7022988; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:22:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7V2MHJL022959; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:22:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:22:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GWYvIHlWK8tTOFNO/+GvGTvmFc8ErdZHqn806N4WRzKBoqYYE8NO6G8Guzp5q9E63CIaa+PpjY5tcFqSbcujS/yBEjpqW2uwEck8uFGrJaSna+0ooHgcoBgRXgAU/I86dyqOqfmPB+63f5MGX7YjXfKREM16fq6XzflhMYv8HJk= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:22:16 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aspden Effect In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCF615 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCF615 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (The MIBs are at Frank again. :-) On 8/30/06, Zell, Chris wrote: >I read about this effect and I don't understand it's relationship to >supposed free energy. I've read stuff by Aspden about it and I don't >comprehend why >he sees this effect as having a bearing on free energy generation. > >On the other hand, I think he has some good points about "ether". If >empty space has permittivity and offers radiation resistance, how can it >be "nothing" >or not involve some sort of medium? If we keep giving properties to the >"vacuum", when do we return to it to being "ether"? > >If it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? Of course it is. When I discovered the Beta-atmosphere/aether held materials together at the atomic level and attractive forces were as insubstantial as vacua in the Alpha-atmosphere I realised immediately that Science needed turning inside out. Read the published papers and associated info in the File and Photo sections of the Yahoo Beta-atmosphere Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ If they don't convince you that the aether is real and substantial then I can't imagine anything will - ever the Gamma-atmosphere evidence of Stoern's "perpetuum mobile". Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 20:54:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7V3sSU4025528; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:54:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7V3sRIF025506; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:54:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:54:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Gr87AcebD7Y7/83PcetZn/hXD6iE1+Sr9ION3mH8fIamXCDhet5Bsl97hhgvVw/ogB38U/hv0JxjFqn/C9NY+9JBiSdAhIf4/DuEY3WsqxgrK6vfsSnQQr0udv75oC1oD5FN1s7vmMnsUder/tbZQyL77b4yQKFE50VfIgt7kWs= ; Message-ID: <20060831035425.26016.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention Status: O X-Status: This message came form Terry Holmes: At the Tesla Tech convention in Salt Lake City on July 28, Thorsten Ludwig of the German Association for Space Energy gave a presentation on Naudin's MAHG device, which he (Ludwig) said had been replicated by his group. His presentation showed various photos of Naudin, Moller and himself with Naudin. He also claimed that Moller was in the process of producing 300 of the tubes like the one Naudin had used in his publicized results. Ludwig hoped to acquire one or more of these tubes for his group to use. Moller told him that they were expected to be ready in the next few weeks. His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 Naudin results with photos from the web site from last summer--complete with the Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the energy of combination of hydrogen was 90,000 times greater than the energy of disassociation (?!). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Aug 30 22:29:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7V5T3Wc014873; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:29:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7V5T2S2014850; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:29:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:29:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AMIh3Dn601ziyhXXCfq6NNAS9nn7kzCqc1oEtsL1Px7xRzNZxyZZRPHV78hF/ipPCvsTeypUIn4ZhrKVjXVWyQOoyyJli8xj/rIbASLesJL8bso3JUul6e/WnKlbWtb1UyihsGp2VNKFQ7u73LHKuJnP/rRO+nxkBM1MFsOAJu0= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:29:01 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention In-Reply-To: <20060831035425.26016.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50461_17909069.1157002141072" References: <20060831035425.26016.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_50461_17909069.1157002141072 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/31/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > This message came form Terry Holmes: > > His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 > Naudin results > with photos from the web site from last > summer--complete with the > Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the > energy of combination of hydrogen was 90,000 times > greater than the energy of disassociation (?!). Bill Lyne believes much the same. ------=_Part_50461_17909069.1157002141072 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/31/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
This message came form Terry Holmes:
<snip>
His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005
Naudin results
with photos from the web site from last
summer--complete with the
Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the
energy of combination of  hydrogen was 90,000 times
greater than the energy of disassociation  (?!).

Bill Lyne believes much the same.


------=_Part_50461_17909069.1157002141072-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 05:18:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VCIeUi008662; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:18:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VCIdfp008644; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:18:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:18:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To; b=37wvUaMwCHNshjeK2FOcib6O+HcAPSxbwlTu3a1FffCMX1Kv7Xjz4FrExvJjbzCdSjnczR1IwCExYEaAc8Mbnq7R26vD7Nc/TBcTW5pzTDag5bI9dGDT5UEvFByrIEGJHx77MXXmgM3QbdbdJUPVmRVsjBOxgtV58jupMfLaSxw= ; From: "Remi Cornwall" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: you can't patent an idea (steorm) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:18:35 +0100 Message-ID: <011401c6ccf7$961477b0$1f00a8c0 RCORNWALL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: AcbMnrT8Bybwq5O9T8+KR8wWYNzKXgAV+VYg In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Various levels of intellectual property: Copyright: Oiginal works of 'art'. 70 years. Trade Mark: A 'brand' lifetime forever. Brands are better in the long run. Design Mark: Aesthetic quality of a product or logo Patent: Something capable of industrial use. One protects the *features* of the device. One cannot patent ideas. Lifetime: 20 years. Try www.patent.gov.uk Sorry if I get busy and don't contribute for weeks or months. This is not a snub. Lot going on in and out of work will tell in a few months. Viva freedom of speech! R. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: 31 August 2006 03:35 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: you can't patent an idea (steorm) William Beaty wrote: > > The patent system is supposed to get inventors to give up their secrets. > If you come up with a new product, we can protect it in exchange for > publishing the information. > > Unfortunately this is not designed to handle new scientific discoveries. > So when a business discovers a fundamental scientific advance (x-rays, for > example,) things can get VERY screwy because the business can't patent > x-rays. They can only patent all sorts of devices based on the discovery. > > Any sensible business would want to somehow keep x-rays a secret, since > the discovery can't be protected by patents. Then they may or may not > want to get patents on all the various x-ray devices they could sell. A business should not have to keep the reality of x-rays a secret since x-rays occur naturally and therefore can't be patented by anyone. Only an invented system for generating them can be patented. Likewise, I suspect if OU is real and exists naturally then it can't be patented. Harry > > > If a scientist discovers x-rays, he just announces it to the world. Maybe > he benefits from the resulting fame, as with the discoverers of the laser. > Or maybe he takes out patents and starts a company. > > > Steorm are not behaving as scientists. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 08:10:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VFAQPL029651; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:10:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VFAPOX029624; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:10:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:10:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,194,1154880000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="624868279:sNHT83951032" Message-ID: <44F6FBDE.2040904 iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:10:22 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080501050701070807040609" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080501050701070807040609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper. There are several ways to do what needs to be done. * Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work. * The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy. * Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers. * Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.] Each has its challenges and it risks. A test requires several things: * The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not? * It must run a load. * All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested. If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention. The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions. 1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam? 2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow? Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth? There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web. These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam. I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow. If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it. One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it hard to use on a vehicle. William Beaty wrote: >On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: > > > >>That is great news! >> >>I have not listened to the interview. >> >>All the more likely they have done what they claim. >> >> > >If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their >website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be >no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a >legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be >extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to >just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman >problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) > >But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd >otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. > > >Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. >The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy >sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit >investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the >discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful >suppression. > >Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. > > >(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > > --------------080501050701070807040609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper.
There are several ways to do what needs to be done.
  • Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work.
  • The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy.
  • Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first  steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers.
  • Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.]
Each has its challenges and it risks.
A test requires several things:
  • The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not?
  • It must run a load.
  • All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. 
If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested.
If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention.

The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions.
  1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam?
  2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow?
Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth?
There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web.

These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam.

I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow.

If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it.
One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it  hard to use on a vehicle.
 
William Beaty wrote: 
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote:

  
That is great news!

I have not listened to the interview.

All the more likely they have done what they claim.
    

If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their
website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be
no need for this "jury" stuff.  It looks like a publicity stunt, not a
legit tactic.  On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be
extremely difficult to work with.  That would be a good reason *not* to
just post the plans and let everyone try building it.  (The Pons-Fleichman
problem also involved a large number of failed replications.)

But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd
otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky.


Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past.
The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam.  The secrecy
sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit
investors.  And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the
discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful
suppression.

Watch closely.   We'll see if I'm right again.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

--------------080501050701070807040609-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 08:42:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VFfiL6023486; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:41:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VFfgqU023461; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:41:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:41:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6CD13.F2996DC0" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorm/ If I Ever Invent Free Energy Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:41:38 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCFC0C CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Steorm/ If I Ever Invent Free Energy Thread-Index: AcbND64EM/jr376BShCzKie9mmRyngAA7Flg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2006 15:41:38.0763 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2C3D1B0:01C6CD13] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CD13.F2996DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I ever discover a free energy device, I'm gonna take a "miracles of Jesus" approach! =20 I'm gonna power my house with it - and show it to friends and "strictly charge them not to tell anyone". =20 After awhile, in spite of telling them to keep it secret, word will spread - all over the world. =20 Did Jesus know something about reverse psychology? I think so. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CD13.F2996DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If I=20 ever discover a free energy device, I'm gonna take a "miracles of Jesus" = approach!
 
I'm=20 gonna power my house with it - and show it to friends and "strictly = charge them=20 not to tell anyone".
 
After=20 awhile,  in spite of telling them to keep it secret,  word = will spread=20 - all over the world.
 
Did=20 Jesus know something about reverse psychology?  I think=20 so.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6CD13.F2996DC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 10:02:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VH2Vhn019299; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:02:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VH2TG4019274; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:02:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:02:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fmGLAlXLh1xxsE16pESnlARMAo8mZRxHUDIgEkReMl+SqHg255RMxNge6NmTp+I3ie9zCxgfvvmWUaKuGhJcftmF4UqqCb5v8nFsVhM/vKj+vToG58uUI8VRab2neYfLtDK1kv5owF+m/YDhns+hqUNiA/BM8hX8xoZFhM+iMSQ= ; Message-ID: <20060831170228.28416.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:02:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention Status: O X-Status: --- John Berry wrote: > Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the explanation] A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in Europe. Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some credentials... ... making his inane repetition at this conference - of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more mysterious... This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found excess energy [yet there is still little real proof for that] - it only means there is more high level ignorance in the field than there should be. One suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden. Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about the repeater than the original premise. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 11:01:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VI10kJ021591; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:01:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VI0x8m021569; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:00:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:00:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <44F6FBDE.2040904 iinet.net.au> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm - a great post! Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:00:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2006 18:00:52.0746 (UTC) FILETIME=[662076A0:01C6CD27] Resent-Message-ID: <_eBD1.A.4QF.aPy9EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wes, You have hit the nail directly on the head. This is the best summary I've seen of Steorn's reasoning before they decided to follow the path they have taken. Hope you don't mind, but I've copied it to another venue... Excellent analysis! Mark >From: Wesley Bruce >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm >Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:10:22 +1000 > >Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if >the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at >all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers >must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper. >There are several ways to do what needs to be done. > > * Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The > publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it > did not work. > * The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several > disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early > discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood > donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc > would kill the projects secrecy. > * Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The > first submarine, the first steam train contests and of cause the > Wright brothers. > * Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate > the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of > high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this > path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility > of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. > [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.] > >Each has its challenges and it risks. >A test requires several things: > > * The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and > measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not? > * It must run a load. > * All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. > >If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get >submarine designers interested. >If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa >attention. > >The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions. > > 1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam? > 2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they > run and hide somehow? > >Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be >pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth? >There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it >is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web. > >These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but >there does not seem to be scam. > >I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any >demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we >have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the >universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put >from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any >slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the >underlying energy flow. > >If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred >applications for it. >One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make >it hard to use on a vehicle. > >William Beaty wrote: > >>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: >> >> >> >>>That is great news! >>> >>>I have not listened to the interview. >>> >>>All the more likely they have done what they claim. >>> >>> >> >>If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their >>website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be >>no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a >>legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be >>extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to >>just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman >>problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) >> >>But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd >>otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. >> >> >>Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. >>The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy >>sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit >>investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the >>discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful >>suppression. >> >>Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. >> >> >>(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >>William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >>billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >>Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 11:20:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VIKJqc003954; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VIKHZn003923; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:20:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:20:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:17:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <44F6FBDE.2040904 iinet.net.au> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6anK3maxLBNXpHRitXvmOA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_6anK3maxLBNXpHRitXvmOA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT FWD from vortex-L Harry Wesley Bruce wrote: Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper. There are several ways to do what needs to be done. Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work. The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy. Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers. Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.] Each has its challenges and it risks. A test requires several things: The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not? It must run a load. All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof. If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested. If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention. The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam? How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow? Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth? There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web. These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam. I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow. If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it. One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it hard to use on a vehicle. William Beaty wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote: That is great news! I have not listened to the interview. All the more likely they have done what they claim. If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be no need for this "jury" stuff. It looks like a publicity stunt, not a legit tactic. On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be extremely difficult to work with. That would be a good reason *not* to just post the plans and let everyone try building it. (The Pons-Fleichman problem also involved a large number of failed replications.) But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky. Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past. The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam. The secrecy sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit investors. And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful suppression. Watch closely. We'll see if I'm right again. --Boundary_(ID_6anK3maxLBNXpHRitXvmOA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT patents, inventions and theories FWD from vortex-L
Harry


Wesley Bruce wrote:

Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at all.Steorm wants the patents on this. Peer reviews wont help the reviewers must have hands on contact. They simply wont believe a paper.
There are several ways to do what needs to be done.
  • Publish a peer review paper and a patent at the same time. The publicize both. That was what Fleischmann and Pons tried and it did not work.
  • The Steorm jury, This is the process used in the past with several disputed discoveries. Including the latitude contest, some early discoveries in medicine including immunization and safe blood donations. It is common in classified work where public papers etc would kill the projects secrecy.
  • Build a car or boat and dive or sail it past large audiences. The first submarine, the first  steam train contests and of cause the Wright brothers.
  • Publish the design outside peer review and have hundreds duplicate the work. Paul C.W. Chu and his colleagues, the discoverers of high temperature Yittirium based superconductors followed this path in part. As far as I know they had to forgo the possibility of patents but got major awards and posts which is a compensation. [if I have this bit wrong tell me please.]
Each has its challenges and it risks.
A test requires several things:
  • The starting impulse, if required, must be filly controlled and measured. I.e. do you start it with a shove or not?
  • It must run a load.
  • All wires,etc must be visible labeled and reasonably tamper proof.
If placed in an air tight box filled will it still run. This will get submarine designers interested.
If it still runs if it is turned upside down it will get a lot of Nasa attention.

The best test of a scam is to ask the two key questions.
  1. How do they intend to make a buck from the scam?
  2. How do they intend to escape prosecution if it is a scam. Can they run and hide somehow?
Steorm is not asking for money in any way and I can't see how they could be pulling a scam. Where's the money in it if their not telling the truth?
There is too much data on the people involved for them to up and run if it is a scam. A good conman never gets his photo all over the web.

These guys seem to be real. There may be an error that they can't see but there does not seem to be scam.

I doubt that the laws of thermodynamics are under any threat. Any demonstration of free energy is in effect simply a demonstration that we have not yet measured and named all of the energy fluxes in the the universe. Once we have a powerplant running in we can measure its out put from place to place,or over time or in proximity to other things. Any slight variations in output will allow us to map and then define the underlying energy flow.

If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred applications for it.
One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could make it  hard to use on a vehicle.

William Beaty wrote:
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Mark Goldes wrote:

 
That is great news!

I have not listened to the interview.

All the more likely they have done what they claim.
   

If they just published detailed plans and construction info on their
website, (and if the device is relatively easy to get working,) there'd be
no need for this "jury" stuff.  It looks like a publicity stunt, not a
legit tactic.  On the other hand, their device could be like SMOT, and be
extremely difficult to work with.  That would be a good reason *not* to
just post the plans and let everyone try building it.  (The Pons-Fleichman
problem also involved a large number of failed replications.)

But if secrecy wasn't their philosophy, they could just *say* that they'd
otherwise just release everything ...but that their device is finicky.


Where FE is concerned, secrecy has always been the major evil in the past.
The secrecy keeps onlookers from knowing whether it's a scam.  The secrecy
sets up a catch-22 for selling OU products or even finding legit
investors.  And I suspect that if any groups want to suppress the
discovery, inventor's secrecy is absolutly critical to successful
suppression.

Watch closely.   We'll see if I'm right again.
--Boundary_(ID_6anK3maxLBNXpHRitXvmOA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 13:52:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VKlit0006583; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:47:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VKlcON006500; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:44:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <000d01c6cd0f$a3700970$2002a8c0 BioLifeStyle5> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2a36ZC.A.DlB.nr09EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Wars and The Price of Oil Status: O X-Status: It was suggested by Hans Dieter Franke on vortex-L that... > >...the recent wars for democracy and freedom versus WMD are > not for oil, they are for the price of oil. > Hans Dieter > I responded: If the price of oil was regulated by some sort of international law/agreement, rather than by markets, then the prevailing price of oil would be resolved by on-going political negations rather than by expressions of military might. After all speculations about military action inform speculations about the price of oil. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 13:59:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VKxeXW016561; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:59:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VKxdpm016542; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:59:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:59:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:56:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7XKLL.A.WCE.7209EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: correction/Re: [Vo]: OT: Wars and The Price of Oil Status: O X-Status: sorry, I meant to say "It was suggested by Hans Dieter Franke on a different list that:" Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > It was suggested by Hans Dieter Franke on vortex-L that... > >> >> ...the recent wars for democracy and freedom versus WMD are >> not for oil, they are for the price of oil. >> Hans Dieter >> > > I responded: > > If the price of oil was regulated by some sort of international > law/agreement, rather than by markets, then the prevailing price > of oil would be resolved by on-going political negations rather > than by expressions of military might. > > After all speculations about military action inform > speculations about the price of oil. > > > Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 14:56:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VLo4no022149; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:56:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VLhPkx017437; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:43:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:43:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:43:09 -0500 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Aether and free energy, etc Thread-Index: AcbNRnMmI0y6ISffTCiNXQ/nQaZe7A== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2006 21:43:09.0790 (UTC) FILETIME=[739FDFE0:01C6CD46] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7VLhHwh017326 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc Status: O X-Status: The philosophical problem with most free energy schemes is that they are too simple to have been overlooked. Can we really believe that some off the shelf combination of magnets and wires can give us free energy, after so many have tried for so long? On the other hand, I think there could be two effects that have been overlooked: First, cavitation - nearly all of the scientific effort has been focused on eliminating it, rather than using it as a source of propulsion. It may also be an area that is deliberately avoided by serious investigators because of the difficulty of explaining it within standard physics. In addition, some of the devices that may have exploited it ( Schauberger) may be extremely difficult to fabricate. The second possibility concerns Betavoltaics and devices that mix radioactive material with RF surges. There have been quite a number of people who have claimed anomalous results from such devices, across decades - not the least of which was Paul Brown, who died under suspicious circumstances. I can also see that any sort of loophole in inducing radioactive decay might trigger almost violent responses from Darwinists, who would be extremely upset to see their timeline blown up. Many of the studies ( like Emery) on the radioactive decay constant deal with intense static forces, rather than pulses or transients. Finally, it is well to keep in mind that ultimately, the universe and its laws are arbitrary. While careful reductionism has brought us this far, we may be slamming into a brick wall of "emergent properties" in quantum physics, genetics and consciousness studies. The ancients had creation myths and we have String theory................. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 15:01:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VM16AH031566; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:01:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VM13x3031519; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:01:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:01:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=izQRLZr80LtW1VhLMTXHAXNAUhjHj0XS180+1sgNB0xFrCzMQbYCyhUoKPTwBS4zkmzAI8jnKcJegqh30qs5xzLkIN7IGwjlIq/VQyYvqAX7GMqdrDT/zNL6TGiJ3bSNnQKIPpas1TqPVgfMjAMwNlKclcG4fXvCqxpZ0ETeD0M= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:01:01 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention In-Reply-To: <20060831170228.28416.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_67958_5947819.1157061661975" References: <20060831170228.28416.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_67958_5947819.1157061661975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?! 20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward! And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous times over many years. That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you know that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy under the right conditions? Build it and prove him wrong. Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for sale anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we assume that turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to discourage it as the primary energy source for homes why not a really efficient heater? Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > > --- John Berry wrote: > > > Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic > misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the > explanation] > > A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the > German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates > that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a > spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in > Europe. > > Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on > the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has > participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas > and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some > credentials... > > ... making his inane repetition at this conference - > of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the > original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more > mysterious... > > This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found > excess energy [yet there is still little real proof > for that] - it only means there is more high level > ignorance in the field than there should be. One > suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden. > > Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about > the repeater than the original premise. > > Jones > > ------=_Part_67958_5947819.1157061661975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?!

20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward!

And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous times over many years.

That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you know that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy under the right conditions?

Build it and prove him wrong.

Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for sale anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we assume that turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to discourage it as the primary energy source for homes why not a really efficient heater?

Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine?


On 9/1/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

--- John Berry wrote:

> Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic
misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the
explanation]

A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the
German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates
that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a
spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in
Europe.

Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on
the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has
participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas
and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some
credentials...

... making his inane repetition at this conference -
of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the
original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more
mysterious...

This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found
excess energy  [yet there is still little real proof
for that] - it only means there is more high level
ignorance in the field than there should be. One
suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden.

Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about
the repeater than the original premise.

Jones


------=_Part_67958_5947819.1157061661975-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 15:30:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VMUWbr016664; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VMUViR016638; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=NL7M9vWcQToqzB4GT4RV6lQK/HPzZBetws6h8sMSRPaRPfOyYL1+o3xgp2Tpyn7t09VAhEMzHQNnZ8wzXiLyVGeiYYqFyiS/vk7zrzB3Eah/kovAro9RbdeKY24Y6jOEA39IdhMORvIvwmGjgn0tsqHwjhkVLEqMWBYAVhI1Aw8= ; Message-ID: <00d001c6cd4c$1f9bf180$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20060831170228.28416.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:23:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C6CD11.72AE1FF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C6CD11.72AE1FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring = P-in. BTW - when in the past has Naudin been proven correct, *with independent = replication,* on any OU experiment ? I think it would be wise to = question every conclusion he has made. Most are lacking. Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by = Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum. Don't get me wrong - I admire the effort put in by Naudin and his skill = as a builder of a wide assortment of unfinished and *promising* = experiments - but his refusal to admit obvious errors and to correct the = errors online - as with the MEG and MAHG is irresponsible.=20 And then the biggest objection is that he leaves everything in a = cliff-hanging state - why can't he push forward and finish what he has = started if there is a hint of OU - as with Mizuno?=20 His M.O over at least a dozen experiments is to show a provocative = glimpse of what could be OU, with a well constructed experiment BUT then = to abruptly and without explanation - move onto the next glimpse. Peep = show science ! ... not there is anything wrong with drama... or peep shows for that = matter Jones ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Berry=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?! 20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward! And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself = numerous times over many years.=20 That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe = it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having = read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you = know that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy = under the right conditions?=20 Build it and prove him wrong. Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a = successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight = forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for = sale anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we = assume that turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to = discourage it as the primary energy source for homes why not a really = efficient heater?=20 Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low = cost way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get = Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: --- John Berry wrote: > Bill Lyne believes much the same [basic misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in the explanation] A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of the German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates=20 that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is a spokesperson for alternative energy innovations in Europe. Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was on the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has=20 participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas and is apparently an inspiring speaker with some credentials... ... making his inane repetition at this conference - of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the=20 original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the more mysterious... This does not necessarily mean that they haven't found excess energy [yet there is still little real proof for that] - it only means there is more high level=20 ignorance in the field than there should be. One suspects another "mail order PhD" - ala Bearden. Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more about the repeater than the original premise. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C6CD11.72AE1FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to = needing a=20 lesson in measuring P-in.
 
BTW - when in the past has Naudin been = proven=20 correct, *with independent replication,* on any OU experiment ? I think = it would=20 be wise to question every conclusion he has made. Most are = lacking.
 
Read George Holtz's post on the 20x = power=20 measurement error made by Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum.
 
Don't get me wrong - I admire the = effort put in by=20 Naudin and his skill as a builder of a wide assortment of unfinished and = *promising* experiments - but his refusal to admit obvious errors and to = correct=20 the errors online - as with the MEG and MAHG is=20 irresponsible. 
 
And then the biggest objection is that = he leaves=20 everything in a cliff-hanging state - why can't he push = forward=20 and finish what he has started if there is a hint of OU - as with = Mizuno?=20
 
His M.O over at least a dozen = experiments is=20 to show a provocative glimpse of what could be OU, with a well = constructed=20 experiment BUT then to abruptly and without explanation - move onto = the=20 next glimpse. Peep show science !
 
... not there is anything wrong with = drama... or=20 peep shows for that matter <g>
 
Jones
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John = Berry=20
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 = 3:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at = TeslaTech=20 convention

Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you = mean no=20 proof!?!

20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward!

And = personally=20 I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous times over = many=20 years.

That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is = correct,=20 maybe it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree = having=20 read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do = you know=20 that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy = under the=20 right conditions?

Build it and prove him = wrong.

Actually the=20 only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a successful = reproducible=20 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight forward to replicate = there is=20 no obvious sign of them showing up for sale anytime soon, Ok it = creates heat=20 not electricity and even if we assume that turning heat into = electricity is=20 bothersome enough to discourage it as the primary energy source for = homes why=20 not a really efficient heater?

Tempted to build one myself if = someone=20 can suggest an efficient low cost way to turn heat into electricity, = anyone=20 know where to get Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam=20 Turbine?


On 9/1/06, Jones=20 Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>=20 wrote:

---=20 John Berry wrote:

> Bill Lyne believes much the same=20 [basic
misunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in=20 the
explanation]

A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, = President of=20 the
German Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates =
that he=20 resides in Berlin, Germany and is a
spokesperson for alternative = energy=20 innovations in
Europe.

Recently completing a PhD, his = doctoral=20 thesis was on
the Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has=20
participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseas
and is=20 apparently an inspiring speaker with = some
credentials...

...=20 making his inane repetition at this conference -
of obvious and = glaring=20 fundamental mistakes in the
original Naudin/Moller writeup - all = the=20 more
mysterious...

This does not necessarily mean that = they=20 haven't found
excess energy  [yet there is still little = real=20 proof
for that] - it only means there is more high level =
ignorance in=20 the field than there should be. One
suspects another "mail order = PhD" -=20 ala Bearden.

Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more=20 about
the repeater than the original=20 = premise.

Jones


<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C6CD11.72AE1FF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 15:36:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VMaT6m020342; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:36:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VMaNuK020258; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:36:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:36:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <44F6FBDE.2040904@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <44F6FBDE.2040904 iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.168] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:36:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id k7VMaBVw020150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:10:22 +1000: Hi, [snip] >If it is 500 mW / cc [0.5 watts/ litre] then I have about a hundred Actually 0.5 kW / L. (A mW is a milli-Watt, not a microwatt). Clearly there are millions of applications for it (i.e. just about everything that uses power). >applications for it. >One key question is whether it generates gyroscopic forces; that could >make it hard to use on a vehicle. Not at all, just use them in pairs that compensate for one another. Besides cars already contain fly-wheels, and they don't cause any problems. The new Tesla electric car has a single electric motor which also rotates, and that doesn't cause a problem. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 16:00:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VN0FT4001571; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:00:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VN0Dri001542; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:00:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:00:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LVVK+xo1fLjLkBR+DOnn2CvrbPgkRhF3YRPIqpvlOclIuQRgq1p10UE+Ew/RQhwqC+mhbLvuPBozgjBDsrZId7g4TyTBFb0xMNThbnkyhVeHA2+hkc55m5Iib1Hwjm7XZN2Ep0aaJLC/2X5S5pReVPQmwWws8gWozrcatwEVJ/A= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:00:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/31/06, Zell, Chris wrote: > The ancients had creation myths and > we have > String theory................. String theory is dead. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 16:05:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VN5REY004932; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VN5LkT004878; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rJfmSdqq6kuZ3oo9LEMTabMzWsUZI7NwVxh9b9JBUnL0yok/XRqq4tSpc27jZYE/x0rXmiPnaMarjGTC/BLY1WfnyPzYzd4TjJQsKK8gm48Z18xW+WpMMxvyvkOdVXGJFIj2nhZBD8ZLgeZ2PRGPQEchToyOO2h6LlnP37+HZMo= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:05:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060831170228.28416.qmail web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 8/31/06, John Berry wrote: > Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way > to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines > that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? Would these be similar to Stirling Engines? http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/BetteringEnergyEfficiencyPowerSources/SolarProject/ http://tinyurl.com/anxpt Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 17:36:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k810aFMV023140; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:36:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k810aEOH023122; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:36:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:36:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c6cd5e$9b4b2190$4cc6163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:36:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <4v2mxC.A.KpF.9B49EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc > String theory is dead. > > Terry Now THAT would make a nice T-shirt. "String theory is dead." -Blanton But try walking around SUNY/Buffalo with that on, and a person could get hurt. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 18:41:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k811fXK5004747; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k811fVV2004733; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:41:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NBuxGi+Zs9gDiPrdHhqswzNWzK/F+DJ1goiPV/FTVLMDhUosvIb2HABJqS6EYrt5hCcEtDQ6HexTMXoIpC/4BbSP8m/CRqAMa44/ZkZKZmIZiIp3SohPLoIUES4crX4f2q+zONa7PTzbcYSsJqy7mmFcp6Q3/OyScVt87g0PJ5c= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:41:30 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc In-Reply-To: <003101c6cd5e$9b4b2190$4cc6163f DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <003101c6cd5e$9b4b2190$4cc6163f DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8/31/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > String theory is dead. > > > > Terry > > > Now THAT would make a nice T-shirt. > > "String theory is dead." -Blanton > > But try walking around SUNY/Buffalo with that on, and a person could get > hurt. And the back says "Long live String Theory"? ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 13:23:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VKMj9N020541; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:22:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k7VKMhWu020518; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:22:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:22:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=JwE7Zgnv0MulCPaNmxsdBVFf+X3DWcv1zmUk32U4ssFWPHZ3DV9x4igyvtcAIpPwzVKjRPj2ZKIiMWXz/7pa7QLDfWy6YzOxOPBakKdkkSczyi6TYHEjjEp/LLQYECGYaw2hfOTXQPT3g+eOgeMjWLdjUFRseVblgCH0BhoX7sw= ; Message-ID: <0a6d01c6cd3b$3419abe0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2BCF615 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <06ec01c6cc77$7182cd50$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aspden Effect Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:22:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Terry indicating that Aspden had a second web site that I had overlooked, I have now [finally] located a technical description of the motor that Dr Aspden utilized- which showed what later became to be known as the Aspden effect. http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es9/esr9.pdf PART II (pages 11 to 18.) BTW Chris, to perhaps answer your questions, I noticed that Dr Aspden has been reorganised his web sites.. since what looks to be January of this year. He appears to be summarizing his works. His insights into aether spin and capacitors you may find interesting. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Quinney" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aspden Effect > Chris, > > There are more aether theories out there than one can shake a stick at. > Everybody has one, but I want to avoid the theorists (for now). I just > wish to see the original description so hopefully I can build exactly > that. > > ( But if I build it, will they come? ;) > > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zell, Chris" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:42 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aspden Effect > > >>I read about this effect and I don't understand it's relationship to >> supposed free energy. I've read stuff by Aspden about it and I don't >> comprehend why >> he sees this effect as having a bearing on free energy generation. >> >> On the other hand, I think he has some good points about "ether". If >> empty space has permittivity and offers radiation resistance, how can it >> be "nothing" >> or not involve some sort of medium? If we keep giving properties to the >> "vacuum", when do we return to it to being "ether"? >> >> If it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:03 PM >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com >> Subject: [Vo]: Aspden Effect >> >> Vorts ! >> >> I am looking for an article... :) >> >> The Aspden Effect was first mentioned in an item that was published in >> the February 1995 issue of NEN (New Energy News). Vol 2, #10. pages 1, >> 2,... >> I have tried to order a back-copy . . . without success. >> >> The "effect" is anomalous angular momentum, some kind of virtual >> inertia- reported therein by Harold Aspden, and later described here: >> http://www.energyscience.org.uk/le/Le30/le30.html >> >> * ORIGINAL PAPER : >> http://www.padrak.com/ine/INE8E.html >> CONTENTS FOR FEBRUARY 1995: Vol. 2, No. 10 >> >> DISCOVERY OF "VIRTUAL INERTIA" ................1 THE ASPDEN EFFECT >> .............................2 >> >> If anyone had a subscription at that time, may I please prevail upon you >> to obtain a copy? Thanks very much :) >> >> Best Regards, >> Colin Quinney >> crquin at rogers.com >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 19:52:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k812q3eX014123; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:52:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k812q2jk014111; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:52:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:52:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:49:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_EhEk28ARwSqc32uIr6fnNA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Oersted Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_EhEk28ARwSqc32uIr6fnNA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This might be an example of why credentials matter when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored because his was viewed as an "amateur"?? Harry Passages taken from http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/oersted.htm ------- During an evening lecture in April 1820, =D8rsted discovered experimental evidence of the relationship between electricity and magnetism. While he wa= s preparing an experiment for one of his classes, he discovered something tha= t surprised him. In =D8rsted's time, scientists had tried to find some link between electricity and magnets, but had failed. It was believed that electricity and magnetism were not related. As =D8rsted was setting up his materials, he brought a compass close to a live electrical wire and the needle on the compass jumped and pointed to the wire. =D8rsted was surprised so he repeated the experiemnt several times. Each time the needle jumped toward the wire. This phenomenon had been first discovered by the Italian jurist Gian Domenico Romagnosi in 1802, but his announcement was ignored. =A0 He himself told the story of how, one day in April when he was pondering on a lecture about electricity and magnetism in which he would employ a new electric battery, it occurred to him that just as light and heat radiate from all sides of a live wire, so, conceivably, magnetic action might similarly be emitted from the wire. He resolved to investigate this by inserting a platinum filament in the wire between the battery terminals and causing them to glow by means of the current, meanwhile holding it over a small compass needle in the line of it. There was no time for testing the theory before the lecture; but during it he became so convinced of the idea's correctness that he at once carried out the experiment, and found that the needle was deflected, that it was deflected in the opposite direction when the current was reversed, and that it was without effect whe= n the needle was held at right angles to the wire. --Boundary_(ID_EhEk28ARwSqc32uIr6fnNA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable OT: Oersted This might be an example of why credentials matter
when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored
because his was viewed as an "amateur"??
Harry


Passages taken from
http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/oersted.htm

-------
During an evening lecture in April 1820, =D8rsted discov= ered experimental
evidence of the relationship between electricity and magnetism. While he wa= s
preparing an experiment for one of his classes, he discovered something tha= t
surprised him. In =D8rsted's time, scientists had tried to find some link between electricity and magnets, but had failed. It was believed that
electricity and magnetism were not related. As =D8rsted was setting up his materials, he brought a compass close to a live electrical wire and the needle on the compass jumped and pointed to the wire. =D8rsted was surprised =
so he repeated the experiemnt several times. Each time the needle jumped toward the wire. This phenomenon had been first discovered by the Italia= n
jurist Gian Domenico Romagnosi in 1802, but his announcement was ignored. =A0=


He himself told the story of how, one day in April when he was pondering on=
a lecture about electricity and magnetism in which he would employ a new electric battery, it occurred to him that just as light and heat radiate from all sides of a live wire, so, conceivably, magnetic action might
similarly be emitted from the wire. He resolved to investigate this by
inserting a platinum filament in the wire between the battery terminals and=
causing them to glow by means of the current, meanwhile holding it over a <= BR> small compass needle in the line of it. There was no time for testing the <= BR> theory before the lecture; but during it he became so convinced of the
idea's correctness that he at once carried out the experiment, and found that the needle was deflected, that it was deflected in the opposite
direction when the current was reversed, and that it was without effect whe= n
the needle was held at right angles to the wire.
--Boundary_(ID_EhEk28ARwSqc32uIr6fnNA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 20:00:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8130UcA020164; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:00:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k8130SLf020141; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:00:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:00:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Oersted In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_JejWHvdeHt+16fp1jWKWfw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_JejWHvdeHt+16fp1jWKWfw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I guess Romagnosi was ignored because he published his findings in a newspaper... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Domenico_Romagnosi ...sound familiar? ;-) Harry Harry Veeder wrote: This might be an example of why credentials matter when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored because his was viewed as an "amateur"?? Harry --Boundary_(ID_JejWHvdeHt+16fp1jWKWfw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: OT: Oersted
I guess Romagnosi was ignored because he published his
findings in a newspaper...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Domenico_Romagnosi

...sound familiar? ;-)
Harry


Harry Veeder wrote:

This might be an example of why credentials matter
when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored
because his was viewed as an "amateur"??
Harry

--Boundary_(ID_JejWHvdeHt+16fp1jWKWfw)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 23:33:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k816XWEL016406; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:33:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k816XUfD016379; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:33:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:33:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44F7D40F.8040205 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:32:47 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention References: <20060831035425.26016.qmail web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > On 8/31/06, *Jones Beene* > wrote: > > This message came form Terry Holmes: > > His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 > Naudin results > with photos from the web site from last > summer--complete with the > Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the > energy of combination of hydrogen was 90,000 time > > greater than the energy of disassociation (?!). > > > Bill Lyne believes much the same. > > Does that mean that it is theoretically possible to run an engine on the hydrogen / oxygen produced by an electrolyze, and run the electrolyze on the alternator? Several people have asserted that this is possible, I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate this. I could heat my house, and by selling the surplus electricity to the utility afford A C. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 23:34:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k816Yc45017037; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k816YbaF017013; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44F7D462.8060902 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:34:10 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorm References: <44F6FBDE.2040904@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <44F6FBDE.2040904 iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be > allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no > theory at Patents are intended to protect applications. The discussion about the Steorm machine caused me to recall a patent for a permanent magnetic mechanical motor. As I recall the patentee's names were Jines, and Jines. My friend had plans to build a working prototype, but AFAIK, he has yet to get the job done. The part of the mechanism that involved shielding the magnet with Mu metal is similar. I am mystified at the amount of bandwidth which has been expended over this matter. I realize that if the principals are fraudulent then only independent replication and testing will definitively answer the question. However, IMHO, if the "motor" can power a device for an extended period of time, that's a pretty good indication that it is performing as promised. OTOH, I recall a man who build a "F E" circuit which worked by microwave radiation from a near by source. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug 31 23:35:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k816ZgVg018198; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:35:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k816ZcXX018147; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:35:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:35:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <44F7D48A.4090007 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:34:50 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2C1B9D8 CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-1eX5.A.abE.6S99EB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/70570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > String theory is dead. > Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---