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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:31:12 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:50:45
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>China claims to want to build about 30 nuclear projects by 2020 to help deal 
>with their energy shortages in their industrial sector and to accomodate 
>future growth.  Does'nt look as if they want to wait for ITER!

The article says 30 nuclear reactors. They are actually talking
about fission reactors.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 09:18:49 2006
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
In-Reply-To: <200609302250.45153.rockcastle lakeside1.net>
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working on it..

s

At 07:50 PM 9/30/2006, you wrote:
>Has anyone got anything more about the recent Chinese claim of producing
>fusion power from their 'EAST' reactor.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 04:13:30 2006
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Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 07:08:13 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Philip Winestone <philip.winestone rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
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You make some excellent points.  The moon mission was the highlight of our 
times (aside from what the conspiracy-loons think) and the US dropped the 
ball, no doubt for all sorts of political reasons.  My feeling is that NASA 
ultimately lost its "edge" as illustrated by the shuttle's nasty gasket and 
detaching tiles problems.

Perhaps private enterprise - re the craft that touched the edge of space, a 
short time ago, using private funding (and private intelligence) alone - 
will continue the conquest of space.

Man is now back to keeping his eyes glued to the ground as opposed to 
staring expectantly at the heavens.

P.


At 01:44 AM 10/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:50 PM
>Subject: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
>
>>PS  The Chinese are also interested in the Shawyer photonic drive device.
>>Wanted to buy the rights to it.
>
>I think its interesting that, should a reactionless drive actually be 
>invented, (I do not know what is going on with Shawyer, the information 
>that I have seen is a bit troubling, possibly some big mistakes made), 
>that anyone will actually respect "rights to it." In any case, in my view, 
>should China ever get "rights" to something like this, we should ignore 
>it, and build ours anyways. Should they complain, tell them to go screw 
>off: its just back payment for everything they stole from the west.
>
>In any case, its like trying to liscense the use of relativity.
>
>>Maybe this is the first puff of
>>wind from a storm that will blow us into a new era.
>
>Consider the storms made by an impacting small asteroid, maybe pushed down 
>by a Chinese spacecraft? I do not like the idea of the Chinese having 
>"Space Superiority". There are plenty of rocks to find up there, just 
>waiting for someone to give them a nudge. I get a frightening thought of a 
>colony of Muslim fanatics in the asteroid belt....if most civilizations 
>produce backwards, fanatical cultures within themselves, it might explain 
>the Fermi paradox.
>
>Space is the new high ground, and it will be a new battleground. But, I 
>suppose that is just our nature. We are explorers and conquerors. Maybe 
>that is what is causing the US to spiral down so badly; we have lost the 
>drive to go to new places, that spirit of conquering the unknown that puts 
>humans at their best. I do see one thing that might be good about the new 
>frontier of space: it is going to be an unparalleled challenge. If it is 
>so much harder to tame than what we have ever had to deal with before, 
>then maybe, just maybe, we might all work together in its conquest.
>
>On that note, I think that if we do not move on to explore and conquer 
>space, we will eventually destroy ourselves one way or another; it won't 
>be from depletion of resources, or lack of new energy sources, or global 
>whatever. Apathy will set in, people will get further into the spirit of 
>today's youth, the "I don't care, lets just get stoned and have tons of 
>sex" attitude, and when the big problems come to face us, we won't have a 
>solution. Not because it doesn't exist, but because we just didn't give a 
>damn. The cold fusion situation might be a good example of this. If I were 
>to write the epitaph on some future gravestone of the human race, it would 
>be very simple. SELF LIMITING.
>
>Me, I prefer what the fictional character of Khan Noonien-Singh said.... 
>"And I got what I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build."
>
>Man, I'm too young to be this depressing....
>--Kyle


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 06:10:18 2006
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Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 09:04:46 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Philip Winestone <philip.winestone rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
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The message below was for Kyle... Not that the rest of the Vorts don't make 
excellent points...

P.


At 07:08 AM 10/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>You make some excellent points.  The moon mission was the highlight of our 
>times (aside from what the conspiracy-loons think) and the US dropped the 
>ball, no doubt for all sorts of political reasons.  My feeling is that 
>NASA ultimately lost its "edge" as illustrated by the shuttle's nasty 
>gasket and detaching tiles problems.
>
>Perhaps private enterprise - re the craft that touched the edge of space, 
>a short time ago, using private funding (and private intelligence) alone - 
>will continue the conquest of space.
>
>Man is now back to keeping his eyes glued to the ground as opposed to 
>staring expectantly at the heavens.
>
>P.
>
>
>At 01:44 AM 10/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
>>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:50 PM
>>Subject: [Vo]: Chinese Tokomak Fusion
>>
>>>PS  The Chinese are also interested in the Shawyer photonic drive device.
>>>Wanted to buy the rights to it.
>>
>>I think its interesting that, should a reactionless drive actually be 
>>invented, (I do not know what is going on with Shawyer, the information 
>>that I have seen is a bit troubling, possibly some big mistakes made), 
>>that anyone will actually respect "rights to it." In any case, in my 
>>view, should China ever get "rights" to something like this, we should 
>>ignore it, and build ours anyways. Should they complain, tell them to go 
>>screw off: its just back payment for everything they stole from the west.
>>
>>In any case, its like trying to liscense the use of relativity.
>>
>>>Maybe this is the first puff of
>>>wind from a storm that will blow us into a new era.
>>
>>Consider the storms made by an impacting small asteroid, maybe pushed 
>>down by a Chinese spacecraft? I do not like the idea of the Chinese 
>>having "Space Superiority". There are plenty of rocks to find up there, 
>>just waiting for someone to give them a nudge. I get a frightening 
>>thought of a colony of Muslim fanatics in the asteroid belt....if most 
>>civilizations produce backwards, fanatical cultures within themselves, it 
>>might explain the Fermi paradox.
>>
>>Space is the new high ground, and it will be a new battleground. But, I 
>>suppose that is just our nature. We are explorers and conquerors. Maybe 
>>that is what is causing the US to spiral down so badly; we have lost the 
>>drive to go to new places, that spirit of conquering the unknown that 
>>puts humans at their best. I do see one thing that might be good about 
>>the new frontier of space: it is going to be an unparalleled challenge. 
>>If it is so much harder to tame than what we have ever had to deal with 
>>before, then maybe, just maybe, we might all work together in its conquest.
>>
>>On that note, I think that if we do not move on to explore and conquer 
>>space, we will eventually destroy ourselves one way or another; it won't 
>>be from depletion of resources, or lack of new energy sources, or global 
>>whatever. Apathy will set in, people will get further into the spirit of 
>>today's youth, the "I don't care, lets just get stoned and have tons of 
>>sex" attitude, and when the big problems come to face us, we won't have a 
>>solution. Not because it doesn't exist, but because we just didn't give a 
>>damn. The cold fusion situation might be a good example of this. If I 
>>were to write the epitaph on some future gravestone of the human race, it 
>>would be very simple. SELF LIMITING.
>>
>>Me, I prefer what the fictional character of Khan Noonien-Singh said.... 
>>"And I got what I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build."
>>
>>Man, I'm too young to be this depressing....
>>--Kyle
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 13:00:36 2006
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Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes
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On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Harry Veeder wrote:

> Recently on TV there was a show about 'sprites' --
> this is high altitude lightning which shoots up into outer space.
>
> Could the Earth be acting like a giant Tesla bulb?


Wow.

Are you aware that something inside thunderstorms is creating pulses of
gamma rays?   These anomalous pulses are detected by military satellites
intended to find covert A-bomb tests.  These gamma ray bursts, or TGFs
(Terrestrial Gamma-ray Flashes) in theory cannot happen, since the high
pressure of the air will keep the electron trajectories short, so
electrons can't get up to KEv speeds to create KEv photons.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 13:15:34 2006
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Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes
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On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, William Beaty wrote:

> Then take a look at THIS one:
>
>   http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg
>
> It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919.  June issue, I think.


Note that lots of "Electrical Experimenter" 1910 era magazine issues are
available for five bucks as PDF files.  The guy at
http://store.g-books.com is selling them.


More weird stuff:  on teslaflyingmachine group on yahoo.com, the author of
"Occult Ether Physics" says that Tesla later built a bulb from a metal
hemisphere but WITHOUT ANY VACUUM BULB.

In thinking about this, I think it's possible.  The bulb will self-pump
its own vacuum during operation, just like Tesla observed in his lecture
on the bulb shown at http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg. Suppose we
take a solid aluminum hemisphere with a flat polished face.  Put a glass
disk against the flat face and seal the edge and cover the whole thing in
thick insulator.  If this device is then operated with a CW tesla coil, a
high-frequency AC plasma will appear in the thin air film between the
glass plate and the aluminum.  The air will vanish!  There's an "ion pump"
effect which drives the gas ions at high velocity into the metal surface
where they're permanently trapped.  Given enough time, a hard vacuum will
form in that narrow gap.

Now if we have a capacitor-like device with:  a metal plate, a glass
plate, and a vacuum layer between them, and if we drive the metal plate at
extremely high voltage AC of high frequency, then something interesting
should occur.  The voltage drop should mostly appear across the vacuum
layer!!!!  This happens because glass is conductive at high frequencies
(because it contains movable charges.)  The higher the dielectric constant
of the glass, the more AC voltage will be impressed across that vacuum
layer.

Second, a glow discharge will develop in the air surrounding the device,
and this gives a second "conductive plate" as well as a long conductive
"wire," so our vacuum capacitor develops two real terminals.  The
conductive plasma path connects capacitively to ground.  This again should
increase that voltage drop impressed across the thin vacuum layer.

And finally, with that high a voltage on a hard vacuum next to a metal,
the metal will send out electrons via high-field emission.  And on
alternate cycles, the electron cloud will smash into the metal at extreme
high velocity, producing Bremssralung x-rays.  The metal should be highly
polished in order to create a parallel beam of x-rays, and supposedly this
is a necessary feature of the device.  The electron trajectories are
short.  But how high is the voltage drop over which the electrons travel?
Heaven only knows.  Could be astronomical, especially when compared to a
conventional x-ray tube.  The thing might even be producing extremely hard
x-rays (gamma radiation.)

The beam of ionizing radiation will launch a narrow corona discharge out
of the face of the tube.  There will be a high-capacitance connection
between the metal Tesla Coil terminal and the plasma (remember that the
vacuum is conductive, since it contains an electron cloud.)   A purple
beam should shoot out of this simple device.

One more thing springs to mind:  it might be better to use PZT or Barium
Titanate instead of glass.  This would force a larger potential drop
across the vacuum layer.  (But perhaps this change might screw things up.
Maybe high-temperature ceramic would be a better choice.)

The only trouble is that we'd need a high-wattage CW tesla coil to run
this beast.  Tesla said that the spark-gap type of coil doesn't work very
well in this application.  I sort of see why:  the electron cloud inside
the vacuum layer might need constant drive once it forms, and if it was
driven in short bursts with long dead-time between, it might quench out
between bursts.  Or at least the onset might be delayed, so the total
on-time would be very small when compared with a CW system.  In any case
it probably would behave very differently under pulse drive than under CW
drive.

Pretty cool, eh?   A GAMMA-RAY EMITTING CAPACITOR!  No vacuum pumps
needed.



> I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as
> "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside.  But instead, the glow
> penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing
> discharge!  Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which
> is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not
> branched like normal lightning.  The x-rays pre-ionize the path.   And
> because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative
> parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out
> some milliamps of DC into the room.   (And therefore would become
> sensitive to magnetic fields!)
>
> Apparently this answers questions about the material below.   If Tesla
> mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they
> would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as
> antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large
> capacitive coupling to distant emitters!)
>
>
>
>
>
> billb wrote:
> > I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of
> > Nikola Tesla."   I'm very curious as to the original source of these
> > images.  Who was the artist?  On what were they based?  From what I
> > understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite
> > revealing.)
> >
> >
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg
> > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg
> >

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 13:40:35 2006
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Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 16:30:01 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Seeing Tesla with new eyes
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On 10/1/06, William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> Pretty cool, eh?   A GAMMA-RAY EMITTING CAPACITOR!  No vacuum pumps
> needed.

Neat.

Hey, Bill, I'll give you $20 to drop this [Vo]: header thing.  Ever
since it was instigated, we've been having problems with subject
headers disappearing.  Besides, the guy who asked for it has retreated
anyway.

Just tell me how to send the $$ to Amazon.

TIA,

Terry

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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "svj" <svj orionworks.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:25:36 -0500
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Subject: [Vo]: Better World Technology's "free energy" plan
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vorts,

I got a charge out of this web site. Better World Technology, BWT.

See:

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/free_electricity/free_electricity.htm

or

http://tinyurl.com/opplg

Exerpts:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Better World Technologies further believes they can combine the Hummingbird
Motor with the Sundance Generator to produce "Free Electricity". BWT does
not claim to have a Free Electricity generator and have not, to date,
combined the Hummingbird to the Sundance. Due to the suppression of
technology by Corporate America, BWT will not come forward until a critical
mass of public awareness is achieved. Once 1.6 million people of North
America has been registered for this program and agreed to be a witness at
our demonstrations, BWT will produce 100 units to be demonstrated
nationwide. These demonstrations will be held at the same time across
America in sports stadiums and large public meeting places."

[But wait! It gets better! I especially liked the next two paragraphs:]

"In appreciation to these first 1.6 million witnesses, the International
Tesla Electric Company (BWT's utility company) will provide up to 26,000 kWh
of free electricity per year for as long as ITEC is able to sell the excess
electricity on the open market. This is our way of rewarding these witnesses
for their faith in God, His technology and us. After the technology has been
publicly demonstrated and proven to the world the remaining 14.4 million
units planned for distribution to North America will be made available to
the public at a projected cost of $2,000.00 per registrant."

"The unit is not now for sale and will never be made available for sale but
will remain the property of BWT and ITEC. Those fortunate enough to be
registered with ITEC will receive the 26,000 kWh per year absolutely free
for as long as ITEC is able to sell the excess electricity on the open
market."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

For the reading impaired (like me) you can watch a video "promo" at Google
videos. Key in:

   "free Tesla energy generator"

Where do I sign up! <g>

Some personal thoughts on the matter: While I'm obviously a tad skeptical,
who am I to pass judgment on an organization for which I haven't had the
chance to accumulate any information on, either pro or con. But assuming,
just for a second that this IS genuine, I think BWT's economic plan to
maintain ownership of their "units" and "sell" the excess electricity back
to the grid, as the company's economic model, is complete and total lunacy.
It's as if BWT is attempting to wrestle the control of energy away from
OPEC's greedy hands and into their own greedy little hands. The majority of
Joe public would not likely end up any better off than they are now. So,
only 14.4 million units will ultimately be produced, at two grand each? No
more? Yeah, right. Having smelled fresh blood wafting through the air, there
would soon be plenty of fledgling companies besides BWT trying to perfect
their own "free energy" generators to sell to Joe Public. Where would they
find the technolog? Rest assured, they WOULD find it either by hook or
crook. Soon, there would be plenty of competitors out in the market offering
equivalent "free energy" generators in no time flat. Poof! There goes BWT's
economic plan to rule the energy world. Of course, the utility companies
wouldn't be happy either way, and I'm sure they wouldn't take it sitting
down.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/OrionWorks

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:55:40 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Subject: [Vo]: world wind power
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

Carnot efficiency = delta T / T. This will be approx. delta P / P.

Since the average maximum high pressure region is about 1030 mBar,
and the average minimum low pressure region is about 970 mBar,
delta P = 60 mBar, thus delta P / P is 60/970 ~ 6%. This is thus
also the Carnot efficiency for the conversion of Solar energy into
wind energy, actual conversion will be less, not least because not
all insolation goes into driving that particular heat engine.

Since surface insolation is approx. 116000 Terrawatts (TW) (taking
into account an average albedo for the planet of about 30%), 6% of
this is about 7000 TW. Total human power consumption is about 14
TW, which is thus about 0.2 % of the wind energy available world
wide.
IOW there is about 500 times more wind power available than we
actually need. 

Of course most of this is way out to sea, where we can't use it.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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I am extremely interested in what your describing but my imagination let me
down, maybe you could make a diagram and put this idea on your website?

This is very interesting and close to some thoughts of mine.

For one there are many independent claims (Morton for one) that an
electrical discharge can in the right conditions create a vacuum, it is true
that spark gaps are very noisy and I have heard sometimes they create more
noise that seems accountable for.

Yes Bill Lyne (Author of the book you mentioned) has made many connections
between Tesla and the use of UV X-Rays and or Gamma, your on to something no
doubt.


On 10/2/06, William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, William Beaty wrote:
>
> > Then take a look at THIS one:
> >
> >   http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg
> >
> > It's from "Electrical Experimenter" from 1919.  June issue, I think.
>
>
> Note that lots of "Electrical Experimenter" 1910 era magazine issues are
> available for five bucks as PDF files.  The guy at
> http://store.g-books.com is selling them.
>
>
> More weird stuff:  on teslaflyingmachine group on yahoo.com, the author of
> "Occult Ether Physics" says that Tesla later built a bulb from a metal
> hemisphere but WITHOUT ANY VACUUM BULB.
>
> In thinking about this, I think it's possible.  The bulb will self-pump
> its own vacuum during operation, just like Tesla observed in his lecture
> on the bulb shown at http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg. Suppose we
> take a solid aluminum hemisphere with a flat polished face.  Put a glass
> disk against the flat face and seal the edge and cover the whole thing in
> thick insulator.  If this device is then operated with a CW tesla coil, a
> high-frequency AC plasma will appear in the thin air film between the
> glass plate and the aluminum.  The air will vanish!  There's an "ion pump"
> effect which drives the gas ions at high velocity into the metal surface
> where they're permanently trapped.  Given enough time, a hard vacuum will
> form in that narrow gap.
>
> Now if we have a capacitor-like device with:  a metal plate, a glass
> plate, and a vacuum layer between them, and if we drive the metal plate at
> extremely high voltage AC of high frequency, then something interesting
> should occur.  The voltage drop should mostly appear across the vacuum
> layer!!!!  This happens because glass is conductive at high frequencies
> (because it contains movable charges.)  The higher the dielectric constant
> of the glass, the more AC voltage will be impressed across that vacuum
> layer.
>
> Second, a glow discharge will develop in the air surrounding the device,
> and this gives a second "conductive plate" as well as a long conductive
> "wire," so our vacuum capacitor develops two real terminals.  The
> conductive plasma path connects capacitively to ground.  This again should
> increase that voltage drop impressed across the thin vacuum layer.
>
> And finally, with that high a voltage on a hard vacuum next to a metal,
> the metal will send out electrons via high-field emission.  And on
> alternate cycles, the electron cloud will smash into the metal at extreme
> high velocity, producing Bremssralung x-rays.  The metal should be highly
> polished in order to create a parallel beam of x-rays, and supposedly this
> is a necessary feature of the device.  The electron trajectories are
> short.  But how high is the voltage drop over which the electrons travel?
> Heaven only knows.  Could be astronomical, especially when compared to a
> conventional x-ray tube.  The thing might even be producing extremely hard
> x-rays (gamma radiation.)
>
> The beam of ionizing radiation will launch a narrow corona discharge out
> of the face of the tube.  There will be a high-capacitance connection
> between the metal Tesla Coil terminal and the plasma (remember that the
> vacuum is conductive, since it contains an electron cloud.)   A purple
> beam should shoot out of this simple device.
>
> One more thing springs to mind:  it might be better to use PZT or Barium
> Titanate instead of glass.  This would force a larger potential drop
> across the vacuum layer.  (But perhaps this change might screw things up.
> Maybe high-temperature ceramic would be a better choice.)
>
> The only trouble is that we'd need a high-wattage CW tesla coil to run
> this beast.  Tesla said that the spark-gap type of coil doesn't work very
> well in this application.  I sort of see why:  the electron cloud inside
> the vacuum layer might need constant drive once it forms, and if it was
> driven in short bursts with long dead-time between, it might quench out
> between bursts.  Or at least the onset might be delayed, so the total
> on-time would be very small when compared with a CW system.  In any case
> it probably would behave very differently under pulse drive than under CW
> drive.
>
> Pretty cool, eh?   A GAMMA-RAY EMITTING CAPACITOR!  No vacuum pumps
> needed.
>
>
>
> > I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as
> > "plasma globes" with fingers of glowing gas inside.  But instead, the
> glow
> > penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing
> > discharge!  Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one
> which
> > is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not
> > branched like normal lightning.  The x-rays pre-ionize the path.   And
> > because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and
> negative
> > parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put
> out
> > some milliamps of DC into the room.   (And therefore would become
> > sensitive to magnetic fields!)
> >
> > Apparently this answers questions about the material below.   If Tesla
> > mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they
> > would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as
> > antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large
> > capacitive coupling to distant emitters!)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > billb wrote:
> > > I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film "The Secret of
> > > Nikola Tesla."   I'm very curious as to the original source of these
> > > images.  Who was the artist?  On what were they based?  From what I
> > > understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite
> > > revealing.)
> > >
> > >
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg
> > > http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg
> > >
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>

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I am extremely interested in what your describing but my imagination
let me down, maybe you could make a diagram and put this idea on your
website?<br>
<br>
This is very interesting and close to some thoughts of mine.<br><br>For one there are many independent claims (Morton for one) that an electrical discharge can in the right conditions create a vacuum, it is true that spark gaps are very noisy and I have heard sometimes they create more noise that seems accountable for.
<br><br>Yes Bill Lyne (Author of the book you mentioned) has made many connections between Tesla and the use of UV X-Rays and or Gamma, your on to something no doubt.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/2/06, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">William Beaty</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:billb eskimo.com">billb@eskimo.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, William Beaty wrote:<br><br>&gt; Then take a look at THIS one:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; It's from &quot;Electrical Experimenter&quot; from 1919.&nbsp;&nbsp;June issue, I think.
<br><br><br>Note that lots of &quot;Electrical Experimenter&quot; 1910 era magazine issues are<br>available for five bucks as PDF files.&nbsp;&nbsp;The guy at<br><a href="http://store.g-books.com">http://store.g-books.com</a> is selling them.
<br><br><br>More weird stuff:&nbsp;&nbsp;on teslaflyingmachine group on <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a>, the author of<br>&quot;Occult Ether Physics&quot; says that Tesla later built a bulb from a metal<br>hemisphere but WITHOUT ANY VACUUM BULB.
<br><br>In thinking about this, I think it's possible.&nbsp;&nbsp;The bulb will self-pump<br>its own vacuum during operation, just like Tesla observed in his lecture<br>on the bulb shown at <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg">
http://amasci.com/graphics/tesblb1b.jpg</a>. Suppose we<br>take a solid aluminum hemisphere with a flat polished face.&nbsp;&nbsp;Put a glass<br>disk against the flat face and seal the edge and cover the whole thing in<br>thick insulator.&nbsp;&nbsp;If this device is then operated with a CW tesla coil, a
<br>high-frequency AC plasma will appear in the thin air film between the<br>glass plate and the aluminum.&nbsp;&nbsp;The air will vanish!&nbsp;&nbsp;There's an &quot;ion pump&quot;<br>effect which drives the gas ions at high velocity into the metal surface
<br>where they're permanently trapped.&nbsp;&nbsp;Given enough time, a hard vacuum will<br>form in that narrow gap.<br><br>Now if we have a capacitor-like device with:&nbsp;&nbsp;a metal plate, a glass<br>plate, and a vacuum layer between them, and if we drive the metal plate at
<br>extremely high voltage AC of high frequency, then something interesting<br>should occur.&nbsp;&nbsp;The voltage drop should mostly appear across the vacuum<br>layer!!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;This happens because glass is conductive at high frequencies
<br>(because it contains movable charges.)&nbsp;&nbsp;The higher the dielectric constant<br>of the glass, the more AC voltage will be impressed across that vacuum<br>layer.<br><br>Second, a glow discharge will develop in the air surrounding the device,
<br>and this gives a second &quot;conductive plate&quot; as well as a long conductive<br>&quot;wire,&quot; so our vacuum capacitor develops two real terminals.&nbsp;&nbsp;The<br>conductive plasma path connects capacitively to ground.&nbsp;&nbsp;This again should
<br>increase that voltage drop impressed across the thin vacuum layer.<br><br>And finally, with that high a voltage on a hard vacuum next to a metal,<br>the metal will send out electrons via high-field emission.&nbsp;&nbsp;And on<br>
alternate cycles, the electron cloud will smash into the metal at extreme<br>high velocity, producing Bremssralung x-rays.&nbsp;&nbsp;The metal should be highly<br>polished in order to create a parallel beam of x-rays, and supposedly this
<br>is a necessary feature of the device.&nbsp;&nbsp;The electron trajectories are<br>short.&nbsp;&nbsp;But how high is the voltage drop over which the electrons travel?<br>Heaven only knows.&nbsp;&nbsp;Could be astronomical, especially when compared to a
<br>conventional x-ray tube.&nbsp;&nbsp;The thing might even be producing extremely hard<br>x-rays (gamma radiation.)<br><br>The beam of ionizing radiation will launch a narrow corona discharge out<br>of the face of the tube.&nbsp;&nbsp;There will be a high-capacitance connection
<br>between the metal Tesla Coil terminal and the plasma (remember that the<br>vacuum is conductive, since it contains an electron cloud.)&nbsp;&nbsp; A purple<br>beam should shoot out of this simple device.<br><br>One more thing springs to mind:&nbsp;&nbsp;it might be better to use PZT or Barium
<br>Titanate instead of glass.&nbsp;&nbsp;This would force a larger potential drop<br>across the vacuum layer.&nbsp;&nbsp;(But perhaps this change might screw things up.<br>Maybe high-temperature ceramic would be a better choice.)<br><br>The only trouble is that we'd need a high-wattage CW tesla coil to run
<br>this beast.&nbsp;&nbsp;Tesla said that the spark-gap type of coil doesn't work very<br>well in this application.&nbsp;&nbsp;I sort of see why:&nbsp;&nbsp;the electron cloud inside<br>the vacuum layer might need constant drive once it forms, and if it was
<br>driven in short bursts with long dead-time between, it might quench out<br>between bursts.&nbsp;&nbsp;Or at least the onset might be delayed, so the total<br>on-time would be very small when compared with a CW system.&nbsp;&nbsp;In any case
<br>it probably would behave very differently under pulse drive than under CW<br>drive.<br><br>Pretty cool, eh?&nbsp;&nbsp; A GAMMA-RAY EMITTING CAPACITOR!&nbsp;&nbsp;No vacuum pumps<br>needed.<br><br><br><br>&gt; I always thought that these old Tesla bulb devices were the same as
<br>&gt; &quot;plasma globes&quot; with fingers of glowing gas inside.&nbsp;&nbsp;But instead, the glow<br>&gt; penetrates the glass and extends into the room as a feet-long glowing<br>&gt; discharge!&nbsp;&nbsp;Most probably it is a tesla-coil lightning bolt, but one which
<br>&gt; is following a beam of x-rays, so it becomes silent and constant, not<br>&gt; branched like normal lightning.&nbsp;&nbsp;The x-rays pre-ionize the path.&nbsp;&nbsp; And<br>&gt; because the x-ray flux would be different during the positive and negative
<br>&gt; parts of the AC, it probably functions as a rectifier, so it would put out<br>&gt; some milliamps of DC into the room.&nbsp;&nbsp; (And therefore would become<br>&gt; sensitive to magnetic fields!)<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Apparently this answers questions about the material below.&nbsp;&nbsp; If Tesla
<br>&gt; mounted such vacuum bulbs on the tips of his high-voltage antennas, they<br>&gt; would produce ion beams which visibly glowed, and which functioned as<br>&gt; antennas having not just long lenghts, but large surface areas (large
<br>&gt; capacitive coupling to distant emitters!)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; billb wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; I uploaded some crude screenshots taken from the film &quot;The Secret of<br>&gt; &gt; Nikola Tesla.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm very curious as to the original source of these
<br>&gt; &gt; images.&nbsp;&nbsp;Who was the artist?&nbsp;&nbsp;On what were they based?&nbsp;&nbsp;From what I<br>&gt; &gt; understand of Tesla technology, they seem very accurate (also quite<br>&gt; &gt; revealing.)<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 
<a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tstowr.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tsflyr.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg">
http://amasci.com/graphics/tspjctl.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tsplane.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tscar.jpg
</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tsfactry.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt; <a href="http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg">http://amasci.com/graphics/tstrain.jpg</a><br>&gt; &gt;
<br><br>(((((((((((((((((( ( (&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp; (&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(O)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp; )&nbsp;&nbsp;) ) )))))))))))))))))))<br>William J. Beaty&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;SCIENCE HOBBYIST website<br>billb at amasci com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://amasci.com">
http://amasci.com</a><br>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits&nbsp;&nbsp; amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair<br>Seattle, WA&nbsp;&nbsp;425-222-5066&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 03:31:19 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Terry's Offer
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I'll match that and raise you $5.00 if Bill does it Terry.   :-)

Fred
..........
Terry wrote.
> 
> Hey, Bill, I'll give you $20 to drop this [Vo]: header thing.  Ever
> since it was instigated, we've been having problems with subject
> headers disappearing.  Besides, the guy who asked for it has retreated
> anyway.
> 
> Just tell me how to send the $$ to Amazon.
> 
> TIA,
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">I'll match that and raise you $5.00 if Bill does it Terry.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">..........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Terry wrote.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">&gt; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">&gt; Hey, Bill, I'll give you $20 to drop this [Vo]: header thing.&nbsp; Ever<BR>&gt; since it was instigated, we've been having problems with subject<BR>&gt; headers disappearing.&nbsp; Besides, the guy who asked for it has retreated<BR>&gt; anyway.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Just tell me how to send the $$ to Amazon.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; TIA,</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: Steve Krivit urges participation in Wikipedia
Status: O
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A pathological skeptic trashed the Wikipedia article on cold fusion. 
Steve Krivit wrote, urging me to protest. His message:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion

Go to where it says SURVEY, and at the bottom of the SURVEY section, 
add this, including the semicolon in front,


My response to Steve:

Wikipedia is crap. It is a failed experiment. The structure and rules 
make it impossible to sustain an objective article about cold fusion 
or some other controversial subject. The pathological skeptics rule 
there, and they can have it. I will not devote any more time or 
effort to that lost cause.

- Jed


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Subject: [Vo]: Corrected Mail Script Code to Fix the Missing Subject Issue
Status: O
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Here is the revised code to fix the problem:

[delete]

done.  8^)

-j


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:18 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Testing


Hi Jones,

This is the mail script Bill posted to this forum several
months ago when he implemented the new policy. Clearly,
it has a bug. He installed it on his server, so someone
needs to find the bug and correct it, then send him the
revised version for him to install. 

Could I do this? Probably, but the language is unfamilar
to me, I tend to work mostly in C++ these days and
avoid the scripting stuff. I am however very curious
who will take it upon themselves to do the work at
hand and solve the problem. A social experiment, if you will.

Again, here is the script.

       :0
        * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]:
        {
          :0 w
          CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject:
          :0 fhw
          | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ"
        }


K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:54 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Testing


Hi Keith,

Well ... as a notroious non-complainer <g> ...


> Debug Bills mail script, as follows.
>
>       :0
>        * ! ^Subject: (Re:(\[[1-9]+\])? )?\[Vo\]:
>        {
>          :0 w
>          CURRENT_SUBJ=| formail -zx Subject:
>          :0 fhw
>          | formail -I"Subject: [Vo]: $CURRENT_SUBJ"
>        }



OK ... but assume that we do not all possess your programming 
acumen.

How does one go about "Debugging Bills mail script" ??  is this 
done in Outlook Express? I am loathe to change mail clients as I 
have over 10 years worth of sorted messages 


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Subject: [Vo]: RE: [[BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September 29, 2006
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Bob Parks and Al Gore notwithstanding we are but fleas on the skin of this
planet.  Utter hubris to think we have any significant influence whatsoever.
Elitist socialism cloaked in the guise of environmental responsibility only
fools those who want to be fooled and the pathological self haters.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html


Probably one of the more interesting aspects of the next ice age (on
schedule and unaffected by us good or bad) is that there is now a resilient
species now tagging along with the capability of adapting to extreme
environmental changes at a pace quicker than normal evolution, natural
selection, or the march of the ice.  This time our societies will not be
crushed to rubble or encapsulated in the bedrock historical record. They
will pock mark into the ice structures themselves like Swiss cheese and
persist and thrive in-spite of it all.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:53 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]: (VO) FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September
29, 2006

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 29 Sep 06   Washington, DC

 2. GLOBAL TEMPERATURE CHANGE: TIME TO HEAD FOR HIGHER GROUND.
 Nothing irritates global warming deniers more than a new report
 from James Hansen's group at NASA, but warming seems to be taking
 place at the rate predicted 20 years ago.  On Monday, Proceedings
 of the National Academy of Sciences published a new report from
 Hansen's group that says "the planet as a whole is approximately
 as warm now as at the Holocene maximum and within 1-degree C of
 the maximum temperature of the last million years."

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: [[BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September	29, 2006
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If you were trying to make a point you blew it with the
remark about self-haters.

Harry


John Steck wrote:

> Bob Parks and Al Gore notwithstanding we are but fleas on the skin of this
> planet.  Utter hubris to think we have any significant influence whatsoever.
> Elitist socialism cloaked in the guise of environmental responsibility only
> fools those who want to be fooled and the pathological self haters.
> 
> http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html
> 
> 
> Probably one of the more interesting aspects of the next ice age (on
> schedule and unaffected by us good or bad) is that there is now a resilient
> species now tagging along with the capability of adapting to extreme
> environmental changes at a pace quicker than normal evolution, natural
> selection, or the march of the ice.  This time our societies will not be
> crushed to rubble or encapsulated in the bedrock historical record. They
> will pock mark into the ice structures themselves like Swiss cheese and
> persist and thrive in-spite of it all.
> 
> -john
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:53 PM
> To: vortex-l
> Subject: [Vo]: (VO) FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday September
> 29, 2006
> 
> WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 29 Sep 06   Washington, DC
> 
> 2. GLOBAL TEMPERATURE CHANGE: TIME TO HEAD FOR HIGHER GROUND.
> Nothing irritates global warming deniers more than a new report
> from James Hansen's group at NASA, but warming seems to be taking
> place at the rate predicted 20 years ago.  On Monday, Proceedings
> of the National Academy of Sciences published a new report from
> Hansen's group that says "the planet as a whole is approximately
> as warm now as at the Holocene maximum and within 1-degree C of
> the maximum temperature of the last million years."
> 

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Subject: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?
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Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments 
in high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can 
only guess at the answers:

hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/ 

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From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?
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---- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote: 
> Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments 
> in high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can 
> only guess at the answers:
> 
> hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/ 

Son-of-a-gun.

I'm goina try this myself.

The water I plan to microwave will be done in a Pyrex glass measuring cup to hopefully eliminate the potential of any kind of leaching contaminants.

I'm actually more concerned about how to reduce potential leaching from occurring when boiling water the conventional way, in a pan on a stove.

If this is verifiable it will make me think twice about all that micro waved food I've consumed throughout my life. Perhaps it's the cause of my stunted growth! My father was 6'2", My older brother 6 feet. I'm 5'8". Do I see a pattern here????

;-)


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 07:50:31 2006
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Removal of chi ? Microwaves and Health
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The late John Ott, whose one time hobby of photographing flowers opening for 
Disney movies became the beginnings of the field of photobiology, speculated 
in one of the three books he authored that microwaving food was probably 
harmful.

His first volume was entitled Health and Light.  I do not recall the titles 
of the books that followed.  I believe it was in one of the last two that he 
suggested microwaves might be an unrecognized health problem.

Mark


>From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 06:48:54 -0700
>
>Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments in high 
>school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can only guess at the 
>answers:
>
>hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/


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Subject: [Vo]: Missing Grimer
Status: O
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Vorts,

In case you wondered where our beta-atm guru has been of late, just
check out his statistics on the Steorn forum:

Frank Member
Real Name Frank Grimer
Email n/a
Account Created Aug 19th 2006
Last Active 3 hours ago
Visit Count 374
Discussions Started 19
Comments Added 738

LOL!  I just wonder how many he has converted?

Terry

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Good for you, Stephen! I think this is the first experiment
you've done on Vo. 

What you need to do to make the presented experiment
statistically signficant is use about 50 plants each for boiled and uwaved
H2O. Also, get your wife to mix the containers of water, so you don't
know which is which. For you, it will be container A and B.
Later, after you do the analysis, wife can tell you which is
which. The linked experiment is anecdotal.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks [mailto:orionworks charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?


---- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote: 
> Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments 
> in high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can 
> only guess at the answers:
> 
> hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/ 

Son-of-a-gun.

I'm goina try this myself.

The water I plan to microwave will be done in a Pyrex glass measuring cup to hopefully eliminate the potential of any kind of leaching contaminants.

I'm actually more concerned about how to reduce potential leaching from occurring when boiling water the conventional way, in a pan on a stove.

If this is verifiable it will make me think twice about all that micro waved food I've consumed throughout my life. Perhaps it's the cause of my stunted growth! My father was 6'2", My older brother 6 feet. I'm 5'8". Do I see a pattern here????

;-)


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Goldes"


> The late John Ott, whose one time hobby of photographing flowers 
> opening for Disney movies became the beginnings of the field of 
> photobiology, speculated in one of the three books he authored 
> that microwaving food was probably harmful.


An interesting point is this: in terms of the inherent energy of 
the radiation source, thermal boiling is supplying orders of 
magnitude higher energy photons (and phonons): terahertz as 
opposed to gigahertz.

So - whatever effect is happening to change either the water 
structure, or to remove "something" [which is not removed by 
boiling alone] - it is not related to the energy of the photon 
radiation itself.

Of course, the hydroxyl radical is resonant in frequencies around 
1665 GHz, and this would be an expected harmonic of an oven - in 
that the microtron frequency is 2.45 GHz. That would serve to 
change water structure perhaps - from a more-ordered to a less 
ordered arrangement - but is that enough to explain what is 
happening?

Jones

If Steven Johnson has grandkids, we may be seeing a return of the 
Hobbits ...

For those who are ignorant of that particular sub-species, Frodo 
sez: Hobbits are between two to four feet (0.6-1.2 m) tall, the 
average height being three feet six inches (1 m). They tend 
towards stoutness and have slightly pointed ears. Their feet are 
furry with leathery soles, so most Hobbits never wear shoes. They 
are fond of an unadventurous bucolic life of farming, eating, and 
socializing. Hobbits can sometimes live for up to 130 years (with 
100 years average). Pure science at its best, folks.

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Terry Blanton <hohlraum gmail.com> wrote: Vorts,

In case you wondered where our beta-atm guru has been of late, just
check out his statistics on the Steorn forum:

Frank Member
Real Name Frank Grimer
Email n/a
Account Created Aug 19th 2006
Last Active 3 hours ago
Visit Count 374
Discussions Started 19
Comments Added 738

LOL!  I just wonder how many he has converted?

Terry

Most of the references to his theory that I have seen have been rather disrespectful.

 		
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<br><br><b><i>Terry Blanton &lt;hohlraum gmail.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Vorts,<br><br>In case you wondered where our beta-atm guru has been of late, just<br>check out his statistics on the Steorn forum:<br><br>Frank Member<br>Real Name Frank Grimer<br>Email n/a<br>Account Created Aug 19th 2006<br>Last Active 3 hours ago<br>Visit Count 374<br>Discussions Started 19<br>Comments Added 738<br><br>LOL!  I just wonder how many he has converted?<br><br>Terry<br><br></blockquote>Most of the references to his theory that I have seen have been rather disrespectful.<br><p>&#32;
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> Most of the references to his theory that I have seen have been rather
> disrespectful.

A normal human reaction to cognitive dissonance.

Terry

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Interesting Articles:

Is not Safe:
http://www.relfe.com/microwave.html
http://www.healingdaily.com/microwave-ovens.htm
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20041013.htm
http://www.jrussellshealth.com/microwaves.html
http://www.life.ca/nl/103/microwave.html

Is Safe:
http://www.foodsafety.gov/~fsg/fs-mwave.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1597903.htm


Google Search "microwaved food"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22microwaved+food%22&btnG=Google+Searc
h

Do this at home: Test your microwave 

By Larry Cook
If you have ever wondered whether or not microwaved food is safe, here's an
experiment you can do at home: Plant seeds in two pots. Water one pot with
water that has been microwaved, the other with regular tap water. 

The seeds that received microwaved water won't sprout. If microwaved water
can stop plants from growing, think of what microwaved food can do to your
health!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:49 AM
To: vortex
Subject: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?

Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments 
in high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can 
only guess at the answers:

hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/
 


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton"

>> Most of the references to his theory that I have seen have been 
>> rather
>> disrespectful.

> A normal human reaction to cognitive dissonance.


Not to mention... I don't think that anyone other than an 
intelligent, experienced but open-minded scientist...

PLUS

...one who had a lifetime of "concrete" experience, would ever 
think to envision a hierarchical aether in the negative pF way 
which Frank has done...

... don't know if I could even explain it correctly [without some 
help], because even though the theory IS logical when you think 
about it that way in great detail, it is so counter-intuitive that 
you pretty much have to have this mind-set which is ... well ...

...set in concrete ??


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In the food I normally eat there are often small raw seeds (like sesame for
instance) which I swallow whole from time to time. I sure don't want the
dang things sprouting inside me. One more reason to keep drinking my coffee
made with microwaved water.

Seriously, how do you get from no-sprout to health issue, even presuming the
results are true? By "thinking of what microwaved food can do to your
health"? I guess there could be a placebo effect. I also remember reading
about experiments where seeds in the dark will sprout below metal plates
wired to a second plate out in the sunlight, unless there's a sheet of
plastic between the plate and the seeds - then they won't sprout. Maybe it's
the fault of the microwave safe container? And on and on...

Interesting if true, but maybe a little early for conclusions like health
issues?

- R.


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[I sent this once and it bounced with a "Connection refused" from 
ultra5.eskimo.com.  I'm resending it...]

Jones Beene wrote:
> Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments in 
> high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can only 
> guess at the answers:
>
> hhttp://www.execonn.com/sf/
Interesting.

There are some very large differences between boiling on the stove and
boiling in a microwave oven.

On a stove the heat is from the bottom, the water is heated more or less
evenly (due to convection), and it typically all comes to boiling,
throughout the cup.  In consequence, as one example, one would expect
dissolved air to be driven out of stovetop-boiled water very
effectively.  Chlorine would also most likely be driven out quite well.

Microwave-boiled water is _typically_ boiled by adding heat on the sides
and top.  Penetration of the microwaves into the water is typically not
deep -- perhaps half an inch at best (water's pretty opaque to
microwaves).  Due to convection, the result is _typically_ that just the
top "skin" of the water really boils.  The bulk of the cup doesn't get
all that hot by the time the top is boiling merrily.  One consequence is
that a beverage heated in a microwave often seems to "cool off really
fast" -- in reality it was never heated all that much.  (To avoid that
you need to stir the liquid first, so it's moving when the oven is on,
and -- I find -- you typically need to microwave it in several short
steps, stirring before each.)  One further consequence would be that, if
the user of the oven isn't careful, the water which was "boiled" in the
microwave won't be heated nearly as thoroughly and so it will retain far
more dissolved air ... and, quite possibly, more chlorine.

So, you don't really need to look for subtle "chi energy" changes to
find what may be significant differences between microwave and stovetop
boiling.

(A series of impromptu experiments with saki heated in a microwave led
to some of the above conclusions, by the way.  The old fashioned method
of putting the saki bottle in a pan of water and popping it onto the
range is typically far more satisfactory than the microwave!)


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ? Microwaves and Health
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:13:57 -0700
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Typo correction

> Of course, the hydroxyl radical is resonant in frequencies 
> around 1665 GHz...

The standard hydroxyl maser frequency is 1.6+ GHz. There are two 
or three close subfrequencies around 1.6 where the radical is most 
active. Water itself is resonant at ~22 GHz (the cosmological 
"water hole"). The standard microwave oven frequency is very close 
to being 50% greater than 1.6+Ghz for several reasons, but 
commercial ovens use a closer range. Many ovens are sized so that 
the most prevalent frequency range ends up being lower harmonics 
of 2.45 GHz.

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John Steck wrote:
> Just a question to all the pontificators... how is a family of 5 or more to
> travel about in this age of seat belts and car seats?  Guess what...
> minivans and SUVs for many of us are a legislated requirement not a luxury.
>
> Get out of the bubble!
>   
IMHO the issue isn't large vehicles, and it isn't really SUV-style 
vehicles, either.  Old-fashioned station wagons did much the same job as 
SUVs.

The issue is that SUVs are -- or were until very recently -- classed as 
trucks by the government as a result of which certain safety, pollution, 
and gas mileage regulations which apply to "cars" did not apply to 
"SUV"s.  One consequence was that many people who didn't need them 
bought them anyway, because they were bargains (due to the loopholes 
they drove through), and it was easy for the manufacturers to drop big 
V-8's into them without worrying too much about fuel economy.

Note well that the much-publicized "rollover problems" of SUVs stemmed 
directly from their CAFE-dodging birth as modified trucks.  That led to 
their body-on-frame design, in contrast to the "step-down frame" used in 
cars since time out of mind, and put their center of gravity higher than 
it would have been otherwise.

Personally I loved the two full-sized station wagons I owned in years 
past.  That was long ago and each had a V-8.  Our current Subaru "small 
wagon", OTOH, has a 4 cylinder engine and a lot of plastic parts to make 
it light enough to perform acceptably with such a "mouse motor".  (And 
it's also 10 years old BTW.  I think Subaru has since moved away from 
their old policy of selling nothing but 4 cylinder engines...)

Banning SUVs makes no sense -- it's just going to be another massive 
distortion of the market.  The SUV "problem" was created by one attempt 
at sledgehammer regulation; fixing it with another blow of the hammer 
isn't likely to produce a good result either.  As I've mentioned 
previously in this group, I think the CAFE business was misguided from 
the first and we should have gone with a stiff tax on gas and let the 
market take care of gas mileage, but since we've got regulation instead 
of taxation, we should at least see that anything sold as a car -- as 
SUV's are -- is subject to the regulations Congress intended all cars to 
be subject to.


> -j
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kyle R. Mcallister [mailto:weir fdscience.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:44 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: [Vo]: SUVs
>
>
> For the record, I do support not allowing the manufacture of NEW SUVS. But
> to take already existing and owned cars? No.
>
> --Kyle
>
>
>   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 11:54:03 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ? Microwaves and Health
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I don't know, Jones.

Some people use lots of manure on strawberries.

Others prefer cream and sugar.   :-)

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Date: 10/4/2006 9:37:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ? Microwaves and Health
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark Goldes"
>
>
> > The late John Ott, whose one time hobby of photographing flowers 
> > opening for Disney movies became the beginnings of the field of 
> > photobiology, speculated in one of the three books he authored 
> > that microwaving food was probably harmful.
>
>
> An interesting point is this: in terms of the inherent energy of 
> the radiation source, thermal boiling is supplying orders of 
> magnitude higher energy photons (and phonons): terahertz as 
> opposed to gigahertz.
>
> So - whatever effect is happening to change either the water 
> structure, or to remove "something" [which is not removed by 
> boiling alone] - it is not related to the energy of the photon 
> radiation itself.
>
> Of course, the hydroxyl radical is resonant in frequencies around 
> 1665 GHz, and this would be an expected harmonic of an oven - in 
> that the microtron frequency is 2.45 GHz. That would serve to 
> change water structure perhaps - from a more-ordered to a less 
> ordered arrangement - but is that enough to explain what is 
> happening?
>
> Jones
>
> If Steven Johnson has grandkids, we may be seeing a return of the 
> Hobbits ...
>
> For those who are ignorant of that particular sub-species, Frodo 
> sez: Hobbits are between two to four feet (0.6-1.2 m) tall, the 
> average height being three feet six inches (1 m). They tend 
> towards stoutness and have slightly pointed ears. Their feet are 
> furry with leathery soles, so most Hobbits never wear shoes. They 
> are fond of an unadventurous bucolic life of farming, eating, and 
> socializing. Hobbits can sometimes live for up to 130 years (with 
> 100 years average). Pure science at its best, folks.
>



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Stephen

> So, you don't really need to look for subtle "chi energy" 
> changes to
> find what may be significant differences between microwave and 
> stovetop
> boiling.

You probably already surmised that the "chi" part was partly 
tongue-in-chi-eek...

...yet... there is always the remote possibility that 
"unfathomables" such as "chi" of "orgone" <g> have some small 
grounding in physical reality (or "non-physical reality" if you 
consider 4-space as nonphysical).

For instance, even without subscribing to the details of Mills' 
hydrino theory - it is conceivable (but not likely) that an easily 
hidden species of "redundant ground state" hydrogen is being 
continuously created in the solar corona over geologic time - and 
makes its way to earth in the solar wind - and then accumulates in 
earth's oceans in parts per billion quantities....

I totally discount the de-gasification explanation, since my 
plants grow quite well in chlorinated water, and if anything 
dissolved CO2 would help, not hurt. I also discount leached 
minerals, since the mineral content of soil is many time higher 
than what could possible be in the water.

... as I said in the original post..."often mainstream physics can 
only guess at the answer."


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> A pathological skeptic trashed the Wikipedia article on
> cold fusion. Steve Krivit wrote, urging me to protest.
> His message:
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion
> 
> Go to where it says SURVEY, and at the bottom of the
> SURVEY section, add this, including the semicolon in
> front,
> 
> 
> My response to Steve:
> 
> Wikipedia is crap. It is a failed experiment. 
> The structure and rules make it impossible to
> sustain an objective article about cold fusion 
> or some other controversial subject. The pathological
> skeptics rule there, and they can have it. I will
> not devote any more time or effort to that lost cause.
> 
> - Jed
> 

Some thoughts regarding Wikipedia faults.

While I can sympathize with Jed's frustration with Wiki's apparent inability to resolve informational disputes concerning CF, particularly when opposing points start battling for dominance I'm not willing to go as far as proclaiming it's a failed experiment. 

The problem, as I see it, is that Wikipidia is still a growing & evolving repository of information where the collection and dissemination of information is not yet fully understood nor what kinds of mechanisms should be in place in order to help maintain accurate information. At present there appear to be insufficient checks and balances in place to handle situations where information wars flare up, where there are more than one POVs claiming ultimate legitimacy and dominance. The problem is exacerbated when revised information is almost immediately removed and replaced with new revisions from the opposite ideological camp. This kind of posting behavior can quickly degenerate into an endless tit for tat, until one side finally washes their hands of the ordeal and leaves the forum in disgust. The obvious danger in all of this is that much of the information posted out in Wiki may not necessarily the most accurate. It's just the most stubbornly maintained POV.

It seems to me that Wikipidia might need to institute a cooling off period, a time period yet to be determined. During this cooling off period a new editing mechanism shifts into gear, one where all the different & opposing points of view are simultaneously placed next to each other. IOW, when an informational war is obviously in the process of unfolding, NO INFORMATION can be summarily deleted. Instead, only additional information, such as new paragraphs of opposing view points can be appended to the already existing information. It should also be clearly revealed WHO (which editor) has added the new information.

Obviously, this cooling-off approach runs the danger of cluttering up the topic to the point that it may become difficult if not down-right confusing to read, at least while the cooling off moratorium is in place. But then, perhaps that's the price one must make, it being the lesser of two evils. Such a mechanism might make it imperative to all interested opposing parties to make their points as succinct and as brief as possible so as not to tick off the reader. During such informational "disputes" impartial readers sould be able to sift through the growing lists of differing POVs and perhaps glean what data is perhaps the more accurate and which information has been placed out there due to sheer stubbornness, be-damned what the actual facts are. IMHO, people aren't stupid. I think most are more than capable of sensing how much inappropriate emotional baggage might be behind recent "revisions."

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



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> A pathological skeptic trashed the Wikipedia article on<br />
> cold fusion. Steve Krivit wrote, urging me to protest.<br />
> His message:<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion<br />
> <br />
> Go to where it says SURVEY, and at the bottom of the<br />
> SURVEY section, add this, including the semicolon in<br />
> front,<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> My response to Steve:<br />
> <br />
> Wikipedia is crap. It is a failed experiment. <br />
> The structure and rules make it impossible to<br />
> sustain an objective article about cold fusion <br />
> or some other controversial subject. The pathological<br />
> skeptics rule there, and they can have it. I will<br />
> not devote any more time or effort to that lost cause.<br />
> <br />
> - Jed<br />
> <br />
<br />
Some thoughts regarding Wikipedia faults.<br />
<br />
While I can sympathize with Jed's frustration with Wiki's apparent inabilit=
y to resolve informational disputes concerning CF, particularly when opposi=
ng points start battling for dominance I'm not willing to go as far as proc=
laiming it's a failed experiment. <br />
<br />
The problem, as I see it, is that Wikipidia is still a growing & evolving r=
epository of information where the collection and dissemination of informat=
ion is not yet fully understood nor what kinds of mechanisms should be in p=
lace in order to help maintain accurate information. At present there appea=
r to be insufficient checks and balances in place to handle situations wher=
e information wars flare up, where there are more than one POVs claiming ul=
timate legitimacy and dominance. The problem is exacerbated when revised in=
formation is almost immediately removed and replaced with new revisions fro=
m the opposite ideological camp. This kind of posting behavior can quickly =
degenerate into an endless tit for tat, until one side finally washes their=
 hands of the ordeal and leaves the forum in disgust. The obvious danger in=
 all of this is that much of the information posted out in Wiki may not nec=
essarily the most accurate. It's just the most stubbornly maintained POV.<b=
r />
<br />
It seems to me that Wikipidia might need to institute a cooling off period,=
 a time period yet to be determined. During this cooling off period a new e=
diting mechanism shifts into gear, one where all the different & opposing p=
oints of view are simultaneously placed next to each other. IOW, when an in=
formational war is obviously in the process of unfolding, NO INFORMATION ca=
n be summarily deleted. Instead, only additional information, such as new p=
aragraphs of opposing view points can be appended to the already existing i=
nformation. It should also be clearly revealed WHO (which editor) has added=
 the new information.<br />
<br />
Obviously, this cooling-off approach runs the danger of cluttering up the t=
opic to the point that it may become difficult if not down-right confusing =
to read, at least while the cooling off moratorium is in place. But then, p=
erhaps that's the price one must make, it being the lesser of two evils. Su=
ch a mechanism might make it imperative to all interested opposing parties =
to make their points as succinct and as brief as possible so as not to tick=
 off the reader. During such informational "disputes" impartial readers sou=
ld be able to sift through the growing lists of differing POVs and perhaps =
glean what data is perhaps the more accurate and which information has been=
 placed out there due to sheer stubbornness, be-damned what the actual fact=
s are. IMHO, people aren't stupid. I think most are more than capable of se=
nsing how much inappropriate emotional baggage might be behind recent "revi=
sions."<br />
<br />
Just my 2 cents.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks<br />
<br />
<br />

--=_25d1b5f7728cf3901f05b082760902c0--

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> Good for you, Stephen! I think this is the first
> experiment you've done on Vo. 
> 

That's spelled: Steve

If I complete the experiment will I get my very own official mad scientist VO decoder ring?


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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> Good for you, Stephen! I think this is the first<br />
> experiment you've done on Vo. <br />
> <br />
<br />
That's spelled: Steve<br />
<br />
If I complete the experiment will I get my very own official mad scientist =
VO decoder ring?<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
www.zazzle.com/orionworks
--=_049587d192bf21f5016f88c688153445--

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Hey Steve,

Nope, no decoder ring...sorry.

If you conduct the experiment as I described, you'll know
for a _fact_ whether microwaved water is better or worse
than boiled water for plant growth. 

Is it madness to know a fact? I suppose so, by today's standards.
Certainly you can incite some real violence by reciting a
few facts, so that is a sort of madness.

Beware! This fact based approach is dangerous! Once you begin
to drop opinions and collect facts, you'll in for a seriously
bumpy ride. The blue pill is so much more pleasant.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: OrionWorks [mailto:ow01 voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 3:34 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?


> Good for you, Stephen! I think this is the first
> experiment you've done on Vo. 
> 

That's spelled: Steve

If I complete the experiment will I get my very own official mad scientist VO decoder ring?


Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

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Jones Beene wrote:
> Stephen
>
>> So, you don't really need to look for subtle "chi energy" changes to
>> find what may be significant differences between microwave and stovetop
>> boiling.
>
> You probably already surmised that the "chi" part was partly 
> tongue-in-chi-eek...
Well ... I'm never really sure.... ;-)
>
> ...yet... there is always the remote possibility that "unfathomables" 
> such as "chi" of "orgone" <g> have some small grounding in physical 
> reality (or "non-physical reality" if you consider 4-space as 
> nonphysical).
>
> For instance, even without subscribing to the details of Mills' 
> hydrino theory - it is conceivable (but not likely) that an easily 
> hidden species of "redundant ground state" hydrogen is being 
> continuously created in the solar corona over geologic time - and 
> makes its way to earth in the solar wind - and then accumulates in 
> earth's oceans in parts per billion quantities....
>
> I totally discount the de-gasification explanation, since my plants 
> grow quite well in chlorinated water, and if anything dissolved CO2 
> would help, not hurt.
Yes, I tend to agree with that.

(Mice, on the other hand, don't do so well with chlorinated water, FWIW.)

> I also discount leached minerals, since the mineral content of soil is 
> many time higher than what could possible be in the water.
Except for sodium, but boiling would increase the concentration of that, 
and besides that would hurt, not help, and tend to skew the results the 
other way.

Anyhow, the main point I was trying to make is that it's possible, even 
likely, that there was a gross physical difference in the way heat was 
applied to the two samples, including the amount of heat that was 
applied to the samples.  When one notes a large difference in handling 
of two samples right up front which could plausibly cause the observed 
different results through conventional means, it seems a little early to 
speculate as to the effect of some very subtle differences in their 
handling which should cause at most a small difference in results 
according to current theory.

In other words, until one has rerun the experiment taking pains to see 
that the two samples really are heated and boiled to very similar 
degrees, it may not be worth speculating about strange chemical bond (or 
orgone, or chi, or hydrino) effects due to the microwaves themselves.

That's all...
>
> ... as I said in the original post..."often mainstream physics can 
> only guess at the answer."
That's for sure.  For that matter, almost any real-world situation tends 
to be too complicated to fully address via "mainstream physics" -- one 
nearly always must address, instead, an idealized, simplified version 
and then hope the predicted results will be "close enough".

>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 20:31:24 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steve Krivit NO LONGER urges participation in
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Well, some of you attempted to intervene, and I applaud you, whoever it 
was, but it seems the like things are a bit out of control there at the moment.

  I'm appalled that such destruction could occur and that it has been left 
to stand. Let them have their way. One day they will wake up to a very big 
surprise.

S

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I attended a lecture by Glen Rein, PhD, biochemistry, on the subject. He 
said that the microwave radiation causes amino acids to rotate around 
portions of the molecule which have double bonds, which normally prevent 
such rotation. They are known as centers of assymmetry. He also measured 
the changes in the infrared spectrum of the water following microwave 
irradiation. It makes sense to me, OTOH, why are people like my brother, 
who lives on microwaved food still alive?

Jones Beene wrote, and
Mark Goldes responded:

> The late John Ott, whose one time hobby of photographing flowers 
> opening for Disney movies became the beginnings of the field of 
> photobiology, speculated in one of the three books he authored that 
> microwaving food was probably harmful.
>
>> From: "Jones Beene"
>>
>> Some rather profound quandaries are often presented by experiments in 
>> high school science fairs ... and often mainstream physics can only 
>> guess at the answers:
>



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: [VO];Re: Steve Krivit NO LONGER urges participation in Wikapedia
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BlankSteve wote,

>Well, some of you attempted to intervene, and I applaud you, whoever it =

was, but it seems the like things are a bit out of control there at the =
moment.

  I'm appalled that such destruction could occur and that it has been =
left=20
to stand. Let them have their way. One day they will wake up to a very =
big=20
surprise.

Howdy Vorts,

Seems to me that more people are lending  credence to Wikipedia than =
deserved. So much for a great idea.

They become tainted and painted with the ole "tar brush" and become =
wickedpedia.

 For shame.. the gossip that will ensue over at the domino parlor at =
Dime Box Texas.

Richard




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<DIV>Steve wote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Well, some of you attempted to intervene, and I applaud you, =
whoever it=20
<BR>was, but it seems the like things are a bit out of control there at =
the=20
moment.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I'm appalled that such destruction could occur and =
that it=20
has been left <BR>to stand. Let them have their way. One day they will =
wake up=20
to a very big <BR>surprise.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Seems to me that&nbsp;more people&nbsp;are lending&nbsp; credence =
to=20
Wikipedia than deserved. So much for a great idea.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>They become tainted and painted with the ole "tar brush" and become =

wickedpedia.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;For shame.. the gossip that will ensue over at the domino =
parlor at=20
Dime Box Texas.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR><BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  5 10:04:19 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: This is not a Stock Tip
Status: O
X-Status: 

CAVEAT: for a moderately informed observer who does a lot of 
research, I am proven to be the *worst stock picker* on the West 
Coast.

Consequently, the following is not really a stock pick but more an 
indication of an area of intense technological interest - and 
involves a highly promoted stock on the "cutting edge" of the 
energy sector (rather, the non-petroleum area of that sector).

Consider Utah-based Headwaters. [BTW I don't own it, so it may be 
safe to invest in]
http://www.headwaters.com/

This is a company which was founded merely to use "coal waste" but 
has gone from nothing to a billion in sales in 8 years... but 
unlike many good-luck stories in the energy industry - those who 
are just raking in obscene profits - this company has an active 
R&D pipeline of forward looking alternative energy projects - 
which are not necessarily tied to fossil fuels. You may have 
guessed one of them already.

The thing that caught my eye - and I am trying to find out more 
detail - is that they have made a big push into hydrogen peroxide 
production. What is a big push: half a billion pounds annually has 
been mentioned. First use: as a chemical intermediary to be used 
in the manufacture of plastics (urethane for auto upholstery in 
Korea) but later ?? who knows. [side note: remember the Nauga <g>]
http://nauga.com/history.html

There are enticing rumors -- peroxide-powered Kias for the Asian 
market?? Who knows, as most rumors are created by stock promoters. 
If you have ever been to the tracks, you are probably familiar 
with the role of "tout"... and usually you get what you pay for 
there.

Back to touting peroxide, not the stock or the Nauga. The 
innovative Degussa-Uhde HPPO process, now owned by 
Headwaters-Korea, uses a hydrogen peroxide and propylene reaction 
to form propylene oxide with special catalyst supplied by Degussa. 
A significantly lower capital investment makes this technology 
more economically viable than the production process currently 
employed. Yawn.

In addition to the current progress being made with HPPO for 
plastics, however, and the whole point of this posting, is that 
Degussa and Headwaters are also working on another so-called 
milestone, namely the catalytic direct synthesis of hydrogen 
peroxide- they call it DSHP, and act as if it is proprietary - but 
vortex readers have been hearing about another version of this for 
some time.

The company claims: "The DegussaHeadwaters direct synthesis 
process will be commercially available starting in 2007. The 
combination of the HPPO process with DSHP offers additional cost 
advantages over conventional propylene oxide manufacturing 
processes."

Heck. They call it a milestone and probably have a staff of patent 
attorneys trying to claim it, but I have posted to vortex earlier 
on a direct synthesis process that anyone could build at home, 
based on information in the public domain, and with a few hundred 
man hours of effort.

It is no big secret and remarkably simple- considering the 
potential- and in fact this whole subject may pose a huge threat 
to the stability of oil pricing, because it could actually cut in 
half (and that is no exaggeration) the gasoline consumption of any 
vehicle. Probably why Headwaters is doing this in Korea.

Of course as with all innovative technology "the devil is in the 
details" and it would take a major cash infusion for me or anyone 
else to move from promising Rube Goldberg prototype (using kitchen 
pots) to a real-life prototype which only fails once a week 
instead of once a day.

Hmm... as for being a major threat to petroleum pricing ... hope 
that low hum in the background is not a black helicopter... <g>

Jones 

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On 10/5/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> CAVEAT: for a moderately informed observer who does a lot of
> research, I am proven to be the *worst stock picker* on the West
> Coast.

Then pick some good ones so I can short them. :-)

Terry

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Most intelligent people come to that conclusion pretty quick.  Wear your
distain as a badge of honor.

Fact is not based on popular opinion, general consensus, nor the tyranny of
the few over the many.  Dogma should never be made unassailable but all
dissenters should not be given equal voice.  That is the fundamental flaw of
Wiki and all the information contained therein.

Your time is better spent on more worthwhile things than fending off the
apes flinging their feces at you.  Let it go...

-j



-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Krivit [mailto:steven newenergytimes.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:57 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steve Krivit NO LONGER urges participation in
Wikipedia


Well, some of you attempted to intervene, and I applaud you, whoever it
was, but it seems the like things are a bit out of control there at the
moment.

  I'm appalled that such destruction could occur and that it has been left
to stand. Let them have their way. One day they will wake up to a very big
surprise.

S

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate mechanical work from the expansion of a fluid."

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate <A title="Mechanical work" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor/wiki/Mechanical_work">mechanical work</A> from the expansion of a fluid."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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1979 Ingersol-Rand Patent 4,157,234

Devices of this type, generally referred to as "scroll" pumps, compressors and engines, have two interfitting spiroidal or involute spiral elements of like pitch which are mounted on separate end plates. These spirals are angularly and radially offset to contact one another along at least one pair of line contacts such as between spiral cylinders. The pair of line contacts will lie approximately upon one radius drawn outwardly from the central region of the scrolls. The fluid volume so formed therefore extends all the way around the central region of the scrolls. In certain special cases the pocket or fluid volume will not extend the full 360.degree. but because of special porting arrangements will subtend a smaller angle about the central region of the scrolls. The pockets define fluid volumes which vary with relative orbiting of the spiral centers while maintaining the same relative spiral angular orientation. As the contact lines shift along the scroll surfaces, the pockets thus formed experience a change in volume. The resulting zones of lowest and highest pressures are connected to fluid ports."
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 10/6/2006 3:41:45 AM 
Subject: Re: Can it Replace the Wankle



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate mechanical work from the expansion of a fluid."

Fred
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<DIV>1979 Ingersol-Rand Patent 4,157,234</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Devices of this type, generally referred to as "scroll" pumps, compressors and engines, have two interfitting spiroidal or involute spiral elements of like pitch which are mounted on separate end plates. These spirals are angularly and radially offset to contact one another along at least one pair of line contacts such as between spiral cylinders. The pair of line contacts will lie approximately upon one radius drawn outwardly from the central region of the scrolls. The fluid volume so formed therefore extends all the way around the central region of the scrolls. In certain special cases the pocket or fluid volume will not extend the full 360.degree. but because of special porting arrangements will subtend a smaller angle about the central region of the scrolls. The pockets define fluid volumes which vary with relative orbiting of the spiral centers while maintaining the same relative spiral angular orientation. As the contact lines shift along the scroll surfaces, the pockets thus formed experience a change in volume. The resulting zones of lowest and highest pressures are connected to fluid ports."</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 10/6/2006 3:41:45 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Can it Replace the Wankle</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate <A title="Mechanical work" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor/wiki/Mechanical_work">mechanical work</A> from the expansion of a fluid."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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PAT. NO.Title
17,086,844Multi-stage scroll fluid machine having a set a seal elements between compression sections 
27,001,161Scroll fluid machine 
36,922,999Single-winding multi-stage scroll expander 
46,764,288Two stage scroll vacuum pump 
56,682,328Multi-stage scroll fluid machine having a seal element between compression sections 
66,106,247Scroll-type fluid displacement apparatus including an eccentric crank mechanism having an elongated shaft 
76,050,792Multi-stage scroll compressor 
85,752,816Scroll fluid displacement apparatus with improved sealing means 
95,616,015High displacement rate, scroll-type, fluid handling apparatus 
105,258,046Scroll-type fluid machinery with seals for the discharge port and wraps 
115,145,344Scroll-type fluid machinery with offset passage to the exhaust port 
124,877,382Scroll-type machine with axially compliant mounting 
134,767,293Scroll-type machine with axially compliant mounting 
144,613,291Inlet construction for a scroll compressor 
154,609,334Scroll-type machine with rotation controlling means and specific wrap shape 
164,477,238Scroll type compressor with wrap portions of different axial heights 
174,457,674High efficiency scroll type compressor with wrap portions having different axial heights 
184,431,380Scroll compressor with controlled suction unloading using coupling means 
194,417,863Scroll member assembly of scroll-type fluid machine 
204,157,234Scroll-type two stage positive fluid displacement apparatus 



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 10/6/2006 4:06:16 AM 
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Can it Replace the Wankle


1979 Ingersol-Rand Patent 4,157,234

Devices of this type, generally referred to as "scroll" pumps, compressors and engines, have two interfitting spiroidal or involute spiral elements of like pitch which are mounted on separate end plates. These spirals are angularly and radially offset to contact one another along at least one pair of line contacts such as between spiral cylinders. The pair of line contacts will lie approximately upon one radius drawn outwardly from the central region of the scrolls. The fluid volume so formed therefore extends all the way around the central region of the scrolls. In certain special cases the pocket or fluid volume will not extend the full 360.degree. but because of special porting arrangements will subtend a smaller angle about the central region of the scrolls. The pockets define fluid volumes which vary with relative orbiting of the spiral centers while maintaining the same relative spiral angular orientation. As the contact lines shift along the scroll surfaces, the ! pockets thus formed experience a change in volume. The resulting zones of lowest and highest pressures are connected to fluid ports."
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 10/6/2006 3:41:45 AM 
Subject: Re: Can it Replace the Wankle



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate mechanical work from the expansion of a fluid."

Fred
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<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>PAT. NO.</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Title</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>1</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=1&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">7,086,844</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:410-22006105610154425321 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=1&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Multi-stage scroll fluid machine having a set a seal elements between compression sections </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>2</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=2&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">7,001,161</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:184671-22006105610154425322 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=2&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll fluid machine </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>3</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=3&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">6,922,999</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:63342-22006105610154425323 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=3&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Single-winding multi-stage scroll expander </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>4</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=4&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">6,764,288</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:265003-22006105610154425324 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=4&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Two stage scroll vacuum pump </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>5</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=5&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">6,682,328</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:191694-22006105610154425325 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=5&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Multi-stage scroll fluid machine having a seal element between compression sections </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>6</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=6&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">6,106,247</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:157245-22006105610154425326 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=6&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type fluid displacement apparatus including an eccentric crank mechanism having an elongated shaft </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>7</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=7&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">6,050,792</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:114786-22006105610154425327 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=7&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Multi-stage scroll compressor </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>8</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=8&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">5,752,816</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:293587-22006105610154425328 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=8&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll fluid displacement apparatus with improved sealing means </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>9</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=9&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">5,616,015</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:269628-22006105610154425329 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=9&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">High displacement rate, scroll-type, fluid handling apparatus </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>10</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=10&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">5,258,046</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:244649-22006105610154425330 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=10&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type fluid machinery with seals for the discharge port and wraps </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>11</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=11&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">5,145,344</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:570510-22006105610154425331 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=11&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type fluid machinery with offset passage to the exhaust port </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>12</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=12&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,877,382</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:2814511-22006105610154425332 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=12&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type machine with axially compliant mounting </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>13</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=13&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,767,293</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:2328112-22006105610154425333 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=13&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type machine with axially compliant mounting </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>14</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=14&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,613,291</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:1682713-22006105610154425334 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=14&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Inlet construction for a scroll compressor </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>15</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=15&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,609,334</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:996114-22006105610154425335 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=15&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type machine with rotation controlling means and specific wrap shape </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>16</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=16&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,477,238</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:49115-22006105610154425336 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=16&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll type compressor with wrap portions of different axial heights </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>17</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=17&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,457,674</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:299516-22006105610154425337 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=17&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">High efficiency scroll type compressor with wrap portions having different axial heights </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>18</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=18&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,431,380</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:1194217-22006105610154425338 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=18&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll compressor with controlled suction unloading using coupling means </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>19</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=19&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,417,863</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:482718-22006105610154425339 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=19&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll member assembly of scroll-type fluid machine </A></TD><DOCS: 20>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>20</TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=20&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">4,157,234</A></TD>
<TD vAlign=baseline><IMG alt=Full-Text src="cid:543619-22006105610154426340 13071999" border=0></TD>
<TD vAlign=top><A href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=0&amp;f=S&amp;l=50&amp;TERM1=4157234&amp;FIELD1=&amp;co1=AND&amp;TERM2=&amp;FIELD2=&amp;d=PTXT/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=20&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=PTXT&amp;s1=4157234&amp;OS=4157234&amp;RS=4157234">Scroll-type two stage positive fluid displacement apparatus </A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 10/6/2006 4:06:16 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vo]: Re: Can it Replace the Wankle</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>1979 Ingersol-Rand Patent 4,157,234</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Devices of this type, generally referred to as "scroll" pumps, compressors and engines, have two interfitting spiroidal or involute spiral elements of like pitch which are mounted on separate end plates. These spirals are angularly and radially offset to contact one another along at least one pair of line contacts such as between spiral cylinders. The pair of line contacts will lie approximately upon one radius drawn outwardly from the central region of the scrolls. The fluid volume so formed therefore extends all the way around the central region of the scrolls. In certain special cases the pocket or fluid volume will not extend the full 360.degree. but because of special porting arrangements will subtend a smaller angle about the central region of the scrolls. The pockets define fluid volumes which vary with relative orbiting of the spiral centers while maintaining the same relative spiral angular orientation. As the contact lines shift along the scroll surfaces, the ! pockets thus formed experience a change in volume. The resulting zones of lowest and highest pressures are connected to fluid ports."</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 10/6/2006 3:41:45 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Can it Replace the Wankle</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"A scroll compressor operating in reverse is known as a scroll expander, and can be used to generate <A title="Mechanical work" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor/wiki/Mechanical_work">mechanical work</A> from the expansion of a fluid."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: More on DSHP
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Bummer! It can be quite a letdown when you have worked on a modest 
but potentially cutting-edge project for months, having scoured 
the internet and technical libraries, thinking that it is novel 
and unique - the coveted "eureka moment" put into action ...

...only to find that a large company is about to start-up a real 
demonstration plant - using what you thought was your nascent 
idea: at least a version of it. The moralist will say that this 
falls into the category of "nothing new under the sun" which is 
another story in itself - and we don't have the bandwidth to get 
into "memes" today.

First of all, the 'eureka moment' in question goes back further 
than Archimedes - it is Mother-nature's idea - biomimicry at work. 
And actually, the company in question apparently has not 
discovered the most efficient (but lower output) version of the 
process.

As it turns out, that demonstration plant should open in 
Hanau-Wolfgang, Germany 'any day now'. What the company involved 
has failed to do, however, is to admit that the process is 
probably amenable to a much smaller turnkey "mini-factory," which 
can be installed in any auto-owners garage in order to safely and 
automatically make a cheaper-than-cheap magic oxidizer (or 
monopropellant) useful for transportation, using only a small 
amount of grid power. And that is just the beginning.

Come to think of it, there is no reason why - if the natural gas 
supply and prices stabilize, or if the homeowner is in a location 
where wind or solar energy can be used ... [at least for 
urban-pioneer-mentality] ... no reason why one cannot co-generate 
one's own electricity, using half the natural gas which the large 
power generator must consume to get the same amount of power, and 
at the same time make all the heat and auto fuel needed, saving 
tons of out-of-pocket expense. Or alternatively use wind energy to 
compress air, in order to make HOOH which is stored and expanded 
in a turbine to make electricity on demand.

Here is one good metaphor that few observers may have realized. 
Hydrogen peroxide is basically a form of 'virtual' (or 
water-stabilized) compressed air ! By that I mean that if you have 
compressed air - from any source (and what better way to use wind 
energy?) - then you can get all the way to molecular HOOH in a few 
relatively low-tech 'natural' steps, using magnets and catalysts, 
and never need the steel storage tanks, etc. If made in a medium 
grade, HOOH is safe (albeit corrosive) - at least as safe as 
natural gas or propane.

Anyway, according to the DegussaHeadwaters Press Release, the 
company has been developing a "completely new" method of 
synthesizing hydrogen peroxide for direct use as an oxidant. They 
failed to mention that the more general process, dubbed DSHP, has 
already been in "natural" usage for quite a few hundred million 
years, and that all animal life and much of the plant world on 
earth has been using it to create cellular energy.

The DSHP demonstration plant was scheduled to come on stream in 
the second quarter of 2006, but was delayed, and may be in 
operation now. It will be able to produce several thousand metric 
tons per year of hydrogen peroxide. I suspect that an average 
family, especially a rural or farm family, could easily make a few 
tens of tons of DSHP yearly in a mini-factory, enough to provide 
about half of their net energy consumtion - given that there is a 
special synergy of using HOOH to combust biofuel. Perfect for the 
farmer.

Given that the raw materials for this 'miracle fuel' are air and 
water, there is no real limit to how much can be made, especially 
using wind energy to provide the power needed to compress air. 
With an adequate supply of compressed air, all the remaining input 
energy can be taken from a small portion of the output - so this 
is also a great way to use and store wind energy; following which, 
wind energy becomes available "on demand" and multiplied in 
intensity.

The DSHP process- the one in the press report - is said to use a 
"nanocatalyst" developed by Headwaters. They are not saying what 
it is specifically, but my bet is that it is one of the same ones 
use by "mother nature" - probably colloidal manganese oxide.

BTW and without sounding too cynical towards Headwaters ... almost 
all colloids are inherently "nano" ... so if your spin-doctor PR 
woman wishes to wave her verbal magic-wand of techno-lingo over 
it... just add the 'nano' suffix, wow the assembled masses [and 
become an instant nan-E ?]

Jones

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Subject: [VO]:Re: More on DSHP
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BlankJones wrote,

First of all, the 'eureka moment' in question goes back further=20
than Archimedes - it is Mother-nature's idea - biomimicry at work.=20

Howdy Jones,

Surprising how many Texas A&M engineering school undergrads are now =
tracking  your posts on this subject via my secret code ring location =
under my keyboard. They asked me if I knew Jones.... I remarked that he =
lives over the other side of Eureka which is not even close to Dime Box.

Still believe that Schauberger's vortex windmill would be a good easy to =
make project with  fiberglas.=20

Richard

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<DIV>Jones wrote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>First of all, the 'eureka moment' in question goes back further =
<BR>than=20
Archimedes - it is Mother-nature's idea - biomimicry at work. <BR></DIV>
<P>Howdy Jones,</P>
<P>Surprising how many Texas A&amp;M engineering school undergrads are =
now=20
tracking &nbsp;your posts on this subject via my secret code ring=20
location&nbsp;under my keyboard. They asked me if I knew Jones.... I =
remarked=20
that he lives over the other side of Eureka which is not even close to =
Dime=20
Box.</P>
<P>Still believe that Schauberger's vortex windmill would be&nbsp;a good =
easy to=20
make project with&nbsp; fiberglas. </P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 17:30:56 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: (VO) [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 6, 2006
Status: RO
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>

> To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 10/6/2006 9:54:32 AM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 6, 2006

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 6 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. THE PHYSICS PRIZE: LOOKING BACK AT THE EMBRYONIC UNIVERSE. 

 "Are we so fortunate that we live at a time when we can develop
 the theory of creation?" George Smoot mused in a 1992 press
 conference http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN92/wn042492.html . 
 It was at the April Meeting of the APS in Washington; Smoot had
 announced results from the Cosmic Background Explorer mission 
 launched in 1989.  The COBE findings appear to confirm the Big
 Bang theory of the origin of the universe.  Smoot, who is at the
 Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, and John Mather of the NASA Goddard
 Space Flight Center, share the 2006 Nobel Prize in Physics for
 the COBE measurements.  It was an exciting time.  Sadly, however,
 it couldn't happen now.  NASA has chosen to set aside relatively
 inexpensive science in favor of "Hollywood" sci fi spectaculars.

 2. GIMME AN "A": IMPORTANT PROGRESS MADE IN MANNED SPACE FLIGHT. 
 One small step in data enhancement.  After 37 years, the missing
 "a" turned up.  An Australian computer programmer used high-tech
 software to analyze Neil Armstrong's "One small step for man..."
 quote.  He claims Armstrong said "a man" just like he insisted. 
 I tried to lip-sync it while listening to the tape, but couldn't
 squeeze the "a" in.  I guess that's why I'm not an astronaut. 

 3. FUEL EFFICIENCY: THE DEMAND IS GROWING FOR SMALLER PEOPLE. 
 According to Holman Jenkins in the Wall Street Journal, Detroit
 is talking small cars again, following the near collapse of the
 SUV market amid higher gas prices over the last two years.  He
 points out, however, that the popularity of SUVs and pickups was
 linked to the obesity epidemic.  People need taller cabs so they
 can fit behind the steering wheel and still reach the pedals. 
 Meanwhile, gas prices have fallen 25% since the peak just two
 months ago, but they may be at the bottom.  Reports that OPEC is
 preparing to cut production is already starting to raise oil
 prices.  There is a way out.  If we keep converting crop land to
 making ethanol, rising food prices will begin to reduce American
 waistlines.  We just have to stay the course.

 4. THE BOMB: THE "AXIS OF EVIL" IS TURNING UP THE PRESSURE. 
 Foreign Ministers are gathering in London for crisis talks on how
 to deal with Iran's refusal to end its nuclear program, even as
 North Korea's threatens to conduct a test of a nuclear weapon.  

 5. NANO: FDA LACKS RESOURCES TO REGULATE THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY. 
 There are 320 nanomaterials products already on the market,
 including cosmetics, dietary supplements, drugs and medical
 devices, with 200 more in the pipeline.  However, there is no
 record of anybody being harmed, in spite of Prince Charles'
 worries about the world being reduced to a mass of "grey goo" by
 self-replicating nanodevices.  We call such devices "bacteria,"
 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN03/wn050903.html .

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription> status
please visit this 
link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 00:47:04 -0500
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Subject: [Vo]: You be the judge
Status: O
X-Status: 

This link shows what appears to be a homonoid skull on Mars.

http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2006/102/mars-humanoid-skull.htm 



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: Flux Transfer Event
Status: O
X-Status: 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/06/leaking_earth/

Up close and personal with a leaking magnetosphere Cosmic plumbing
By Lucy Sherriff
Friday 6th October 2006 06:02 GMT

You may or may not know that Earth's magnetosphere leaks. You might
think it is therefore time to send for the intergalactic plumbers. And
in a manner of speaking, that is what the European Space Agency has
done, in collaboration with its counterparts in China.

<more>

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Subject: [Vo]: The Extreme Hybrid
Status: O
X-Status: 

Claims 250 mpg:

http://www.afstrinity.com/extr-tech.html

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Subject: [Vo]: Radiant Energy Patent
Status: O
X-Status: 

United States Patent  	7,098,547
Burns 	August 29, 2006
Method and apparatus for converting energy to electricity

Abstract

A method and apparatus are provided for converting electromagnetic
radiation directly into electricity. The method aligns a plurality of
ferromagnetic nanocrystals to produce an aggregate magnetic field;
utilizes an electrical coil in the aggregate magnetic field; and
alternately directs and removes radiant energy from the ferromagnetic
nanocrystals such that the aggregate magnetic field decays and
regenerates to produce a current in the electrical coil. The apparatus
includes either a distribution or a stackup of ferro-magnetic
nanocrystals and an electrical coil, the combination of the
nanocrystals and the electrical coil operating with energy derived
from the source of radiant energy.
Inventors: 	Burns; Phillip (Wilton Manors, FL)
Appl. No.: 	10/784,086
Filed: 	February 20, 2004

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 14:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <f7eeb3430610081402q8cd2449o2c8152e7e732aef8 mail.gmail.com>
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Hi,

I've been a member here for over a year, but this is
my first post, lol.  Are the posts supposed to start
with [Vo]: ?

The following wiki is a good introduction to my work
peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM

I would appreciate it if someone by chance knows a
person who has access to a amorphous and
nanocrystalline core. I live in Los Angeles, CA, USA

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankTerry wrote,
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/06/leaking_earth/

Up close and personal with a leaking magnetosphere Cosmic plumbing
By Lucy Sherriff
Friday 6th October 2006 06:02 GMT

You may or may not know that Earth's magnetosphere leaks. You might
think it is therefore time to send for the intergalactic plumbers. And
in a manner of speaking, that is what the European Space Agency has
done, in collaboration with its counterparts in China.


Howdy Terry,

One must avoid being " strip searched" by Lady Sheriffs.=20

Great graphics shown in the links, utter fiction of what could have =
actually happened to the spacecraft monitoring systems.

It may be that  the same people reading these "tea leaves" were =
responsible for the recent award of the Nobel prize for physics  for the =
next episode of "big Bang" theories. At least the Flat Earth Society =
publishes a disclaimer and the Darwinians admit their ideas are only a =
misguided attempt to frustrate the intellect.

Richard


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<DIV>Terry wrote,</DIV>
<P><A=20
href=3D"">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/06/leaking_earth/</A><BR><=
BR>Up=20
close and personal with a leaking magnetosphere Cosmic plumbing<BR>By =
Lucy=20
Sherriff<BR>Friday 6th October 2006 06:02 GMT<BR><BR>You may or may not =
know=20
that Earth's magnetosphere leaks. You might<BR>think it is therefore =
time to=20
send for the intergalactic plumbers. And<BR>in a manner of speaking, =
that is=20
what the European Space Agency has<BR>done, in collaboration with its=20
counterparts in China.<BR></P>
<P>Howdy Terry,</P>
<P>One must&nbsp;avoid being " strip searched" by&nbsp;Lady Sheriffs. =
</P>
<P>Great graphics shown in the links,&nbsp;utter fiction&nbsp;of what =
could have=20
actually happened to the spacecraft monitoring systems.</P>
<P>It&nbsp;may be&nbsp;that &nbsp;the same people reading these "tea =
leaves"=20
were responsible for the recent award of the Nobel prize for =
physics&nbsp; for=20
the next episode&nbsp;of "big Bang" theories. At least the Flat Earth =
Society=20
publishes a disclaimer and the Darwinians admit&nbsp;their ideas =
are&nbsp;only a=20
misguided attempt to frustrate the intellect.</P>
<P>Richard<BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 16:04:27 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:04:09 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <bi0ji2hdu71k3ugvelhfa5pldcq6g78chi 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Paul's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006 14:11:40 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
>Hi,
>
>I've been a member here for over a year, but this is
>my first post, lol.  Are the posts supposed to start
>with [Vo]: ?
>
>The following wiki is a good introduction to my work
>peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM
[snip]
I have a few questions.

1) At the frequencies you envisage using, wouldn't the heat have
difficulty entering/leaving the material? IOW wouldn't you just
end up recycling the same heat over and over again internally?
(A thermal "short circuit" as it were?)

2) If the temperature difference is just a couple of degrees,
doesn't the Carnot limit severely restrict the potential
efficiency of any conversion device?

3) I thought that magnetic cooling was already widely used, and am
not aware of any OU associated with it.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 16:06:39 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Radiant Energy Patent
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:06:10 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <a01ji2lkmnfrnq333qjn20toa56mh7i1iu 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:02:56
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>United States Patent  	7,098,547
>Burns 	August 29, 2006
>Method and apparatus for converting energy to electricity

They say it converts energy "efficiently", but that is such a
vague term. Does anyone have a number to stick onto this?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Message-ID: <20061009042021.79738.qmail web60916.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006
> 14:11:40 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've been a member here for over a year, but this
> is
> >my first post, lol.  Are the posts supposed to
> start
> >with [Vo]: ?
> >
> >The following wiki is a good introduction to my
> work
> >peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM
> [snip]
> I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) At the frequencies you envisage using, wouldn't
> the heat have
> difficulty entering/leaving the material? IOW
> wouldn't you just
> end up recycling the same heat over and over again
> internally?
> (A thermal "short circuit" as it were?)
> 
> 2) If the temperature difference is just a couple of
> degrees,
> doesn't the Carnot limit severely restrict the
> potential
> efficiency of any conversion device?
> 
> 3) I thought that magnetic cooling was already
> widely used, and am
> not aware of any OU associated with it.
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.


Hi Robin,

This is solid-state technology and would generate
direct electricity. So no need for Sterling motors or
Powerchips, etc.

Perhaps I provided to wrong link. Here it is ->

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:12:07 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Paul's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:20:20 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
[snip]
>> I have a few questions.
>> 
>> 1) At the frequencies you envisage using, wouldn't
>> the heat have
>> difficulty entering/leaving the material? IOW
>> wouldn't you just
>> end up recycling the same heat over and over again
>> internally?
>> (A thermal "short circuit" as it were?)
>> 
>> 2) If the temperature difference is just a couple of
>> degrees,
>> doesn't the Carnot limit severely restrict the
>> potential
>> efficiency of any conversion device?
>> 
>> 3) I thought that magnetic cooling was already
>> widely used, and am
>> not aware of any OU associated with it.
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Robin van Spaandonk
[snip]
>Hi Robin,
>
>This is solid-state technology and would generate
>direct electricity. 

How?

>So no need for Sterling motors or
>Powerchips, etc.
>
>Perhaps I provided to wrong link. Here it is ->
>
>http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM

That's ok, I got the link the first time. However I am still
missing an actual device, (or schematic), or even a description of
a device capable of converting this purported heat flow into
electrical power.
I am also missing an answer to all three questions. The answer you
provided sidesteps the important issues.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 03:06:51 2006
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:06:06 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Radiant Energy Patent
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and the patent + pictures at
http://freepatentsonline.com/7098547.pdf

On 10/9/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:
>
> United States Patent    7,098,547
> Burns   August 29, 2006
> Method and apparatus for converting energy to electricity
>
> Abstract
>
> A method and apparatus are provided for converting electromagnetic
> radiation directly into electricity. The method aligns a plurality of
> ferromagnetic nanocrystals to produce an aggregate magnetic field;
> utilizes an electrical coil in the aggregate magnetic field; and
> alternately directs and removes radiant energy from the ferromagnetic
> nanocrystals such that the aggregate magnetic field decays and
> regenerates to produce a current in the electrical coil. The apparatus
> includes either a distribution or a stackup of ferro-magnetic
> nanocrystals and an electrical coil, the combination of the
> nanocrystals and the electrical coil operating with energy derived
> from the source of radiant energy.
> Inventors:      Burns; Phillip (Wilton Manors, FL)
> Appl. No.:      10/784,086
> Filed:  February 20, 2004
>
>


-- 
++++
Website: http://www.lackluster.org/
Webshop: http://www.lackluster.org/shop/
Announcements: http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/lackluster
Last.FM radio: http://last.fm/label/lackluster
Beatport Download: http://www.beatport.com/lackluster
Bleep Download: http://www.bleep.com/search.php?search=Lackluster
Video: http://www.dailymotion.com/search/lackluster/1
Kompaktkiste: http://www.kompaktkiste.de/lackluster.htm
Discogs: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lackluster
Demo-Discography: http://www.scene.org/~esa/

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and the patent + pictures at <br><a href="http://freepatentsonline.com/7098547.pdf">http://freepatentsonline.com/7098547.pdf</a><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/9/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Terry Blanton</b>
 &lt;<a href="mailto:hohlraum gmail.com">hohlraum@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">United States Patent&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;7,098,547
<br>Burns&nbsp;&nbsp; August 29, 2006<br>Method and apparatus for converting energy to electricity<br><br>Abstract<br><br>A method and apparatus are provided for converting electromagnetic<br>radiation directly into electricity. The method aligns a plurality of
<br>ferromagnetic nanocrystals to produce an aggregate magnetic field;<br>utilizes an electrical coil in the aggregate magnetic field; and<br>alternately directs and removes radiant energy from the ferromagnetic<br>nanocrystals such that the aggregate magnetic field decays and
<br>regenerates to produce a current in the electrical coil. The apparatus<br>includes either a distribution or a stackup of ferro-magnetic<br>nanocrystals and an electrical coil, the combination of the<br>nanocrystals and the electrical coil operating with energy derived
<br>from the source of radiant energy.<br>Inventors:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Burns; Phillip (Wilton Manors, FL)<br>Appl. No.:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10/784,086<br>Filed:&nbsp;&nbsp;February 20, 2004<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>++++<br>Website: 
<a href="http://www.lackluster.org/">http://www.lackluster.org/</a><br>Webshop: <a href="http://www.lackluster.org/shop/">http://www.lackluster.org/shop/</a> <br>Announcements: <a href="http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/lackluster">
http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/lackluster</a>&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>Last.FM radio: <a href="http://last.fm/label/lackluster">http://last.fm/label/lackluster</a> <br>Beatport Download: <a href="http://www.beatport.com/lackluster">http://www.beatport.com/lackluster
</a> <br>Bleep Download: <a href="http://www.bleep.com/search.php?search=Lackluster">http://www.bleep.com/search.php?search=Lackluster</a> <br>Video: <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/search/lackluster/1">http://www.dailymotion.com/search/lackluster/1
</a><br>Kompaktkiste: <a href="http://www.kompaktkiste.de/lackluster.htm">http://www.kompaktkiste.de/lackluster.htm</a><br>Discogs: <a href="http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lackluster">http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lackluster
</a><br>Demo-Discography: <a href="http://www.scene.org/~esa/">http://www.scene.org/~esa/</a>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 04:28:50 2006
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steve Krivit NO LONGER urges participation in  Wikipedia
References: <200610041914.k94JEaxm086145 mail1.mx.voyager.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20061004195219.02ae9df0@mail.newenergytimes.com>
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Steven Krivit wrote:

> Well, some of you attempted to intervene, and I applaud you, whoever 
> it was, but it seems the like things are a bit out of control there at 
> the moment.
>
>  I'm appalled that such destruction could occur and that it has been 
> left to stand. Let them have their way. One day they will wake up to a 
> very big surprise.
>
> S
>
I gave it a go but had to get a new password and the system may have 
treated me as "anonymus" as a consequence? Did any one copy the whole 
site while it was up be for the luddite revision? And can we get a 
couple of disputed wiki pages loaded to the way back machine?

Every action the luddites take dig a very deep grave for them. Some 
argued that Goddard and Von Braun were bogus or frauds. These scientist 
argued that Peenemünde need not be bombed. The chance to kill programe 
early was was missed. The V2 subsequently killed hundreds. After the V2 
was confirmed; one of these scientists retired never returning to a 
University campus. Another found himself facing empty class rooms. Most 
were simply never consulted by government again. Ironicly a few wound up 
working under Von Braun in America after the war.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 11:16:55 2006
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:52:28 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: COFE II Report
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http://pesn.com/2006/09/26/9500240_COFE_report/

excerpt:

Spiral Electromagnet Motor

Dr. Ted Loder spoke about various spiral magnet motor designs,
including some experimentation he has pursued as well, though an
over-unity design yet eludes him.  The objective of the spiral design,
patterned after the Wankel engine, is to use an electromagnet to
provide the kick needed at the end of the spiral to then repeat the
cycle again.  No known over-unity systems have yet been achieved using
such a design.  His personal account of magnets jumping out of their
glued positions and glomming together was quite humorous.

<end>

We have a surprise for Dr. Loder.  <g>

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 12:29:11 2006
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:17:46 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steve Krivit urges participation in Wikipedia
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OrionWorks wrote:

>Some thoughts regarding Wikipedia faults.
>
>While I can sympathize with Jed's frustration with Wiki's apparent 
>inability to resolve informational disputes concerning CF, 
>particularly when opposing points start battling for dominance I'm 
>not willing to go as far as proclaiming it's a failed experiment.
>
>The problem, as I see it, is that Wikipidia is still a growing & 
>evolving repository of information where the collection and 
>dissemination of information is not yet fully understood nor what 
>kinds of mechanisms should be in place in order to help maintain 
>accurate information.

I agree that with changes Wikipedia could become a reasonable source 
of information. But as far as I know the people who run Wikipedia are 
satisfied and not thinking of implementing changes.

What they need is something a bit closer to the traditional academic 
model of peer review and expertise. Of course this model has often 
failed in the past, and it has failed drastically for cold fusion, 
but no set of rules always succeeds in eliminating politics and folly.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 13:42:02 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
>> Pretty fair credentials, I'd say... and he is right-on about the need 
>> to move immediately into energy-aquaculture.
>
> Well, if it works, okay -- maybe. But as I said, we should be 
> extremely cautious about large scale schemes that replace existing 
> biota, especially with monocultures. So far that has caused unending 
> havoc in both land and ocean ecosystems, such as the replacement of 
> most fish with jellyfish world-wide.
>
>
>>  We can easily replace a substantial portion of petroleum use within 
>> twenty years,
>
> We could easily replace 90% of it one year, starting NOW, using only 
> existing technology.  Just do something like what FDR did in January 
> 1942:
>
> 1. Tell the auto industry that we are in a state of war (which we sure 
> are),
No we're not.  Only Congress can declare war and they have not done so.  
They've given the president a lot of leeway in Iraq but none the less we 
don't have a full-blown "state of war".

Bush can talk all he wants about the "war" on terror but AFAIK the 
United States is not "in a state of war".

> and order it to shut down immediately and retool. I mean close it down 
> that instant. FDR ordered told them not to sell a single car for the 
> duration of the war, and he confiscated their entire inventory for 
> military purposes.
FDR had extraordinary powers because Congress had declared war.  In the 
present situation they have not done so, and the president cannot rule 
by edict (AFAIK).

The president can push through a lot of things by snowing Congress 
and/or cheating but simply issuing straightforward edicts without input 
from Congress isn't something he's generally allowed to do ... except 
during a declared war.

And it's a good thing, too, because you're not President just now; nor 
are Lincoln and Roosevelt (either one).  Bush is president, and if he 
had the ability to issue any arbitrary edict and have it become law, no 
questions asked and no congressional approval needed, I don't think he'd 
necessarily institute a program you would see entirely eye to eye with.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 14:01:39 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf
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Harry Veeder wrote:
> Massive oil field found under Gulf
>
> Reserves south of New Orleans could rival
> North Slope, boosting U.S. supplies by 50%
>
> http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51837
>
> Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the discovery of a giant
> oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico that could boost the nation's supplies by
> as much as 50 percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful
> deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis.
>   
The abiotic theory always sounded plausible to me, but there's a problem 
with it:  The oil is still produced very slowly.

Note that "fossil fuels" are produced continuously, also.  In either 
case the problem is that the terrestrial production rate is far slower 
than the current consumption rate.  So, biotic or abiotic, there comes a 
day when there isn't any more, and won't be any again for a long, long time.

The interesting conclusion of the abiotic theory is that there may be 
more large oil fields than expected, because exploration has been guided 
by the biotic theory and so the oil companies haven't looked everywhere 
they should.  But that still doesn't translate into anything that allows 
one to conclude oil is inexhaustible at current use rates.

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first off, how does this give evidence of an abiotic source?  im
missing something.

second, even if true, its formed very very slowly.  meaning we WILL run out.

On 9/12/06, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> Massive oil field found under Gulf
>
> Reserves south of New Orleans could rival
> North Slope, boosting U.S. supplies by 50%
>
> http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51837
>
> Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the discovery of a giant
> oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico that could boost the nation's supplies by
> as much as 50 percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful
> deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis.
>
> Known as the Jack Field, the reserve – some 270 miles southwest of New
> Orleans – is estimated to hold as much as 15 billion barrels of oil.
>
> Authors Jerome R. Corsi and Craig R. Smith say the giant find validates the
> key thesis of their book, "Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and
> the Politics of Oil ," that oil did not come from the remains of ancient
> plant and animal life but is made naturally by the Earth.
>
> "We have always rejected the theories that oil and natural gas are
> biological products," Corsi told WND. "Chevron's find in the Gulf of Mexico
> validates our argument that the Gulf is a huge resource for finding oil and
> natural gas."
>
> The Wall Street Journal reports today the find could boost the nation's
> current reserves of 29.3 billion barrels by as much as 50 percent.
>
> Chevron discovered the field by drilling the deepest to date in the Gulf of
> Mexico, down 28,175 feet in waters nearly 7,000 feet deep, some seven miles
> below the surface of the Earth.
>
> The second biggest source of oil in the world is Mexico's giant Cantarell
> field in the Gulf of Mexico near the Yucatan Peninsula. It was discovered in
> 1976, supposedly after a fisherman named Cantarell reported an oil seep in
> Campeche Bay.
>
> In March, Mexico announced the discovery of a field that could be larger
> than Cantarell, the Noxal field in the Gulf of Mexico off Veracruz.
>
> In "Black Gold Stranglehold," Corsi and Smith argued the theory developed in
> the Soviet Union in the 1950s by Prof. Nikolai Kudryavtsev that oil is a
> deep-earth, abiotic product. The theory, the authors wrote, "rejected the
> contention that oil was formed from the remains of ancient plant and animal
> life that died millions of years ago. According to Kudryavtsev, oil had
> nothing to do with the unproved concept of a boggy primeval forest rotting
> into petroleum. The Soviet scientist ridiculed the idea that an ancient
> primeval morass of plant and animal remains was covered by sedimentary
> deposits over millions of years, compressed by millions of more years of
> heat and pressure."
>
> Instead, the abiotic theory argued "oil should be seen as a primordial
> material that the earth forms and exudes on a continual basis."
>
> Corsi and Smith directly challenge the "peak oil" theory advanced in 1956 by
> Shell Oil's M. King Hubbert.
>
> In an interview with WND, Smith posed the following question: "If U.S.
> proven oil reserves can be increased by 50 percent with one deep-earth oil
> find in the Gulf of Mexico, who knows how much oil might be found as the
> technology of deep-water drilling advances and becomes even more
> economically feasible?"
>
> In "Black Gold Stranglehold," Corsi and Smith note the importance of the
> abiotic theory:
>
> The thought that oil might be naturally produced on a regular basis, that
> oil itself might be a renewable resource, is very threatening to those who
> have invested their minds into believing that oil is fossil fuel. The
> logical consequence of the fossil fuel theory of oil has always been that we
> will run out of oil. After all, there could only be a finite number of
> ancient forests available to rot into oil. Ancient forests, even if once
> plentiful, are a finite resource that by definition will become exhausted
> after they are fully explored and their oil harvested. The logic of the
> fossil fuel theory is that inevitably we will run out of oil.
>
> Corsi and Smith note the power of the abiotic theory: "Could it be that oil
> is abundant, nearly an inexhaustible resource, if only we drill deep
> enough?"
>
> Prior to the Jack Field discovery, the largest U.S. oil find in the Gulf of
> Mexico has been the Thunder Horse , about 125 miles southeast of New
> Orleans. British Petroleum holds a 75-percent interest with ExxonMobil to
> develop the Thunder Horse. This field, too, is deep-earth oil, with BP and
> ExxonMobil finding oil under one mile of water and five miles below the
> seabed.
>
> Scientists believe Mexico's richest oil field complex was created when the
> prehistoric, massive Chicxulub meteor impacted the Earth.
>
> "Could it be that the Chicxulub meteor deeply fractured the entire bedrock
> under the Gulf of Mexico?" Corsi asked in a WND interview. "If so, we might
> find abundant oil wherever we look as we begin to explore the deeper waters
> of the Gulf."
>
> Earlier this year, Cuba announced plans to hire the communist Chinese to
> drill for oil some 45 miles off the shores of Florida. This move was made
> possible by the 1977 agreement under President Jimmy Carter that created for
> Cuba an "Exclusive Economic Zone" extending from the country's western tip
> to the north, virtually to Key West, Fla.
>
> "If Cuba and communist China believe they too can find oil in the Gulf, we
> should pull out all stops," argues Smith. "We may be able to bring the price
> of gasoline down under two dollars a gallon if oil can be found in these
> huge quantities within our territorial waters. It's crazy to think we should
> be dependent on foreign oil when we've made Mexico our number two supplier
> of oil with the reserves Mexico has found in the Gulf."
>
> "Thomas Gold should feel vindicated today," Corsi added, referring to the
> Cornell University astronomer who in 1998 published "The Deep Hot Biosphere:
> The Myth of Fossil Fuels," a book that also challenged the conventional
> wisdom on the origin of oil.
>
> "As an astronomer reading spectrographs," Corsi noted, "Gold knew that
> hydrocarbon products such as methane are abundant in our solar system. Gold
> knew that the abundant methane on Titan, the giant moon of Saturn, did not
> get formed by little dinosaurs up on Titan, or by any other kind of
> biological material. So far as we know, nothing living has ever been found
> on Titan."
>
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 14:16:52 2006
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aquaculture for energy
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Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>And it's a good thing, too, because you're not President just now . . .

Nor will I ever be under any conceivable circumstances. But if I 
were, hypothetically, it would because the nation faced a severe 
energy crisis and recognized the need for drastic action to replace 
oil and fossil fuel with cold fusion or some other alternative. In 
other words, they would elect me (or someone like me) for that 
purpose, and that would be my only platform. I know little about 
other policy problems such as health care.

In that kind of situation, the Congress and the people would give the 
president enormous temporary power, just as they did in the first 100 
days of the first Roosevelt administration. Roosevelt closed down the 
banks for a few days, and I would close down the automobile companies 
for a few months. As FDR put it:

"It can be accomplished in part by direct recruiting by the 
Government itself, treating the task as we would treat the emergency 
of a war . . .

I shall ask the Congress for the one remaining instrument to meet the 
crisis--broad Executive power to wage a war against the emergency, as 
great as the power that would be given to me if we were in fact 
invaded by a foreign foe."


>; nor are Lincoln and Roosevelt (either one).  Bush is president, 
>and if he had the ability to issue any arbitrary edict and have it 
>become law, no questions asked and no congressional approval needed, 
>I don't think he'd necessarily institute a program you would see 
>entirely eye to eye with.

No president can implement a program, either drastic or pedestrian, 
without the support of the Congress and the people. As soon as the 
economy began to recover in 1932 Congress took back its prerogatives 
and much of the "broad executive power" it ceded in the first 100 
days. That was the proper thing to do.


One thing for sure if I were president, even for 10 minutes: cold 
fusion research would be inundated with funding. Probably with too 
much for its own good. Theodore Roosevelt paid for the first US 
military test of the Wright brothers airplane with the president's 
discretionary funds, which was $10 million back in 1908, or about 
$150 million in today's money. If they still have this level of 
discretionary funds for the president, I would send $100 million to 
the cold fusion researchers in the first 10 minutes of my administration.

- Jed


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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006
> 21:20:20 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> [snip]
> >> I have a few questions.
> >> 
> >> 1) At the frequencies you envisage using,
> wouldn't
> >> the heat have
> >> difficulty entering/leaving the material? IOW
> >> wouldn't you just
> >> end up recycling the same heat over and over
> again
> >> internally?
> >> (A thermal "short circuit" as it were?)
> >> 
> >> 2) If the temperature difference is just a couple
> of
> >> degrees,
> >> doesn't the Carnot limit severely restrict the
> >> potential
> >> efficiency of any conversion device?
> >> 
> >> 3) I thought that magnetic cooling was already
> >> widely used, and am
> >> not aware of any OU associated with it.
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Robin van Spaandonk
> [snip]
> >Hi Robin,
> >
> >This is solid-state technology and would generate
> >direct electricity. 
> 
> How?


I apologize. In a nutshell the design collects MCE
(Magnetocaloric effect) energy. When the intrinsic
electron spins flip the entire atom precesses as it
rotates. This rotation/flip gives off radiation,
typically in the hundreds of MHz. Unless using
specific techniques, the magnetic material absorbs
nearly all of this internal radiation.

The problem in most magnetic materials including
ferrites is the amount of energy released is on the
order of thousands to hundreds of thousands times less
than amorphous & nanocrystalline material. It's the
domain size at no applied field and saturation level
that basically determines the amount of radiation.

The MCE energy radiated by a 1 cubic inch of ferrite
at 100 KHz can be a few hundred watts, but again most
of this power is absorbed by the core. For a similar
amount of amorphous & nanocrystalline core it can be
higher than 15 megawatts.  This is an energy exchange
process. At 100 KHz there are 400 thousand energy
exchanges. That is, 125 joules is exchanged during
each phase. So the material heats up by 1 C, then
cools down 1 C, etc.

The goal is to prevent the magnetic material from
absorbing the radiation. One idea is to use material
with appreciably low electrical conductivity. In such
material there are micro eddy current loops around the
avalanches within the magnetic material. So part of
the potential magnetic energy is being converted to
eddy currents. At the appropriate time the circuit
will extract as much of this eddy current as possible.

In the previously provided link you may see further
details regarding this MCE radiation, where is comes
from, what's the cause, and the advisable methods of
preventing the core from absorbing the MCE energy.

For those wanting a design, here's a quote from the
intro of my wiki  "I began designing the MEMM over a
month ago and took a look at the design and basically
said, 'Hey, this is the MEG!' I began to notice the
extreme similarities with other devices. They used
PM's (permanent magnets) to nearly saturate magnetic
material, electrical current in a coil to oppose the
PM's field, high di/dt in the correct cycle. Since
that time the design has evolved into another form
that will hopefully be more effective than the MEG."

I would be more than happy to release MEMM designs
that have evolved beyond the MEG when everything is
1000% verified. My intentions are to freely publish
everything in extreme detail.




--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Sun, 8 Oct 2006
> I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) At the frequencies you envisage using, wouldn't
> the heat have
> difficulty entering/leaving the material? IOW
> wouldn't you just
> end up recycling the same heat over and over again
> internally?
> (A thermal "short circuit" as it were?)


Well, if you have heat then the device did not work.
The idea is to prevent the core from absorbing the MCE
energy.



> 2) If the temperature difference is just a couple of
> degrees,
> doesn't the Carnot limit severely restrict the
> potential
> efficiency of any conversion device?


This design has nothing to do with converting
temperature differences into another form of energy.



> 3) I thought that magnetic cooling was already
> widely used, and am
> not aware of any OU associated with it.
> Regards,


Yes, there are machines that use MCE for deep
freezing.  I am not sure what COP some of these recent
machines are achieving. I received an email from a guy
from France said there's a local company that achieved
abnormally high efficiencies. Even so, nearly all
companies are focusing on Gd alloys, which rely on
achieving MCE by means of room temperature Curie point
materials, such as Gd.  The permeability of Gd at
Curie temperature is extremely small, meaning that the
most of the MCE energy would come from the battery by
means of the coil and not the magnetic material. In
such a case COP will always be less than 1.0.  My
theory predicted that domain size and saturation
equate to potential MCE energy.  So there are two
methods of achieving small domains.  1. Simply heat up
the material. At or beyond Curie the magnetic moments
are randomly scattered which is essentially domains
the size of a few atoms. 2. Use amorphous &
nanocrystalline cores, which are extremely efficient. 
The reason the industry does not use method #2 is
because the whole idea is to achieve very cold or hot
temperatures. Amorphous & nanocrystalline cores are
definitely not suited for this task.
Last, but not least, trying to mechanically extract
energy from temperature differences is still
astronomically inefficient.

Kind regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 15:50:55 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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In reply to  Paul's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006 14:22:13 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
[snip]
>I apologize. In a nutshell the design collects MCE
>(Magnetocaloric effect) energy. When the intrinsic
>electron spins flip the entire atom precesses as it
>rotates. This rotation/flip gives off radiation,
>typically in the hundreds of MHz. Unless using
>specific techniques, the magnetic material absorbs
>nearly all of this internal radiation.
[snip]
Ah, the penny drops! :)
So essentially you are converting random thermal energy into
coherent microwave energy by forcing all the atoms to release
their energy at one time. Then they absorb more thermal energy,
and you convert it to microwaves again. 
I like the concept. You mention small domains as being
advantageous. Could this be attained by reducing the density of
the active atoms? IOW could you simply use a compound that is
essentially an insulator, with say only one active atom among ten
"insulator atoms"? That would appear to result in domains
comprising single atoms.
The disadvantage is that it would be a bit bulkier, but perhaps
lots more efficient, and the insulator is hardly going to bother
the microwaves, which should easily pass through and can be
collected externally. Apparently Metglas makes a whole variety of
products (http://metglas.com/products/page5_1_2.htm), did you have
any particular one in mind? (And do any of them meet the
description I just gave)?

BTW you may find this interesting too. It's an email I posted to
Vortex back in 1998:-
>From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 23:18:24 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Entropy?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:10:46 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:30 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>The loss is because you will only have coupled some of the low grade energy
>back into high grade.  The balance is lost to "heat", ie background thermal
>energy.

The point I was trying to make, was based on the concept of *only*
producing radio waves, without any background thermal energy. The
concept being that in theory at least, I can do work while
converting
heat into radio waves, because radio waves are longer than heat
waves.
Practically, this could perhaps be done out in deep space (or the
dark
side of the moon etc.) where a heat engine could attain close to
100%
efficiency, by radiating energy away at the temperature of the
microwave background (i.e. 2.7 K). However because the radiated
energy
is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can be recaptured
and
reused. IOW almost all of the energy can be used twice, iso once,
and
then most of that can be used again, etc. If you add up all the
partial re-uses of the same energy, before you finally lose
everything, you have done much more work with the initial amount
of
energy than is normally taken into account when calculating the
increase in entropy (which basically assumes that you lose the
energy
after one pass - see Carnot efficiency). (This is also a concept
that
Tom Bearden pushes).
So if I have a microwave capture and conversion efficiency of 80%
(is
this a reasonable number?), then in total, I can do 1/1-.8 = 5
joules
of work with only one joule of energy.
The reason this is currently seen as so outlandish, is that we are
used to thinking in terms of energy dissipation and loss. We think
in
these terms, because we usually "give up" on recovering energy
when it
reaches the thermal stage. We see "low grade" thermal energy as
useless and throw it away. But looked at from the point of
wavelength,
it is actually "higher grade" than radio waves. Yet we are able to
gather and "upgrade" radio waves, into energy of almost any grade,
by
means of electric conversion.
The *only* reason that heat is seen as low grade, is that we don't
have a "heat diode". (Well actually we do, they're called solar
cells,
but these are only about 25% efficient at best). 
What we really need, is a substance that is a strong radio-emitter
when heated (or even just warmed :). Something that might serve
the
purpose, would be a gas with long molecules, that has ions stuck
at
the ends. If the molecules are long enough, and able to move
freely,
then when the plastic is immersed in a magnetic field, thermal
motion
will agitate the end ions, causing them to accelerate in the
magnetic
field, and radiate radio waves.
Such a substance would absorb heat energy from the environment,
and
convert it into longer wavelength radio waves that we could then
rectify and turn into electric current. As far as conventional
entropy
calculations are concerned this material would be down-converting
radiant energy, so it would be seen as an increase in entropy.
>
>So Entropy works.  If you think entropy failed in some well understood
>process, see the first comment.  If you think entropy failed in some ou
>experiment, see the first comment again and go looking for where the extra
>energy came from in the experiment.
The bottom line as far as I am concerned, is that the ability to
rectify a wave, results in negative entropy, i.e. it gives us the
ability to convert random motion into directed motion.
Our second "law" was written at a time when energy, once
"randomised"
could not be recovered. That may now be changing.

Ok, having now made abundantly clear for all the world to see,
that I
haven't really a clue what entropy really is, I will leave it to
the
rest of you to put me straight. :-)
PS Don't worry Ross, your discourse was not wasted on me, but I
want
to see where this leads before "surrendering".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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Hi Robin,

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006
> 14:22:13 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> [snip]
> >I apologize. In a nutshell the design collects MCE
> >(Magnetocaloric effect) energy. When the intrinsic
> >electron spins flip the entire atom precesses as it
> >rotates. This rotation/flip gives off radiation,
> >typically in the hundreds of MHz. Unless using
> >specific techniques, the magnetic material absorbs
> >nearly all of this internal radiation.
> [snip]
> Ah, the penny drops! :)
> So essentially you are converting random thermal
> energy into
> coherent microwave energy by forcing all the atoms
> to release
> their energy at one time. Then they absorb more
> thermal energy,
> and you convert it to microwaves again. 
> I like the concept.


That's basically the idea. The broadband UHF radiation
varies from material to material. The peak wavelength
of such radiation is considerably lower for
electrically conductive materials such as iron for
obvious reasons.  Under normal core usages the
radiation is incoherent, but if you magnetically flip
all the spins at relatively the same time you then
have a coherent pulse; i.e., tons of potential energy.
 Note that in such a case a great deal of the energy
is not absorbed by the material because it's in a
state of flipping to saturation.



> You mention small domains as being
> advantageous. Could this be attained by reducing the
> density of
> the active atoms? IOW could you simply use a
> compound that is
> essentially an insulator, with say only one active
> atom among ten
> "insulator atoms"? That would appear to result in
> domains
> comprising single atoms.


That's an interesting idea. It should work. It would
probably decrease the materials saturation and
permeability.  Your idea is somewhat similar to
nanocrystalline material. One of your ferromagnetic
atoms surround by insulation could be single crystal.
A single nanocrystalline material is one large
ferromagnetic crystal. Well, large as in a dozen or
more atoms in diameter.




> The disadvantage is that it would be a bit bulkier,
> but perhaps
> lots more efficient, and the insulator is hardly
> going to bother
> the microwaves, which should easily pass through and
> can be
> collected externally. Apparently Metglas makes a
> whole variety of
> products
> (http://metglas.com/products/page5_1_2.htm), did you
> have
> any particular one in mind? (And do any of them meet
> the
> description I just gave)?


I like 2714A with permeability of 1 million except it
has low saturation.  I tried to get a 2714A sample,
but they referred me to similar material that had
permeability of just 72,000.  My second pick would be
2605SA1, which is the material Naudin used.  Also
2705M and 2605CO look promising.  Has anyone ever
succeeded in receiving a sample from metglass?




> 
> BTW you may find this interesting too. It's an email
> I posted to
> Vortex back in 1998:-
> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12
> 23:18:24 1998
> Received: (from smartlst localhost)
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> Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:10:34 -0700
> From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van
> Spaandonk)
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Entropy?
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:10:46 GMT
> Organization: Improving
> Message-ID: <35ae9944.154104414 mail-hub>
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> 
> On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:30 -0700, Ross Tessien
> wrote:
> [snip]
> >The loss is because you will only have coupled some
> of the low grade energy
> >back into high grade.  The balance is lost to
> "heat", ie background thermal
> >energy.
> 
> The point I was trying to make, was based on the
> concept of *only*
> producing radio waves, without any background
> thermal energy. The
> concept being that in theory at least, I can do work
> while
> converting
> heat into radio waves, because radio waves are
> longer than heat
> waves.
> Practically, this could perhaps be done out in deep
> space (or the
> dark
> side of the moon etc.) where a heat engine could
> attain close to
> 100%
> efficiency, by radiating energy away at the
> temperature of the
> microwave background (i.e. 2.7 K). However because
> the radiated
> energy
> is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can
> be recaptured
> and
> reused. IOW almost all of the energy can be used
> twice, iso once,
> and
> then most of that can be used again, etc. If you add
> up all the
> partial re-uses of the same energy, before you
> finally lose
> everything, you have done much more work with the
> initial amount
> of
> energy than is normally taken into account when
> calculating the
> increase in entropy (which basically assumes that
> you lose the
> energy
> after one pass - see Carnot efficiency). (This is
> also a concept
> that
> Tom Bearden pushes).
> So if I have a microwave capture and conversion
> efficiency of 80%
> (is
> this a reasonable number?), then in total, I can do
> 1/1-.8 = 5
> joules
> of work with only one joule of energy.
> The reason this is currently seen as so outlandish,
> is that we are
> used to thinking in terms of energy dissipation and
> loss. We think
> in
> these terms, because we usually "give up" on
> recovering energy
> when it
> reaches the thermal stage. We see "low grade"
> thermal energy as
> useless and throw it away. But looked at from the
> point of
> wavelength,
> it is actually "higher grade" than radio waves. Yet
> we are able to
> gather and "upgrade" radio waves, into energy of
> almost any grade,
> by
> means of electric conversion.
> The *only* reason that heat is seen as low grade, is
> that we don't
> have a "heat diode". (Well actually we do, they're
> called solar
> cells,
> but these are only about 25% efficient at best). 
> What we really need, is a substance that is a strong
> radio-emitter
> when heated (or even just warmed :). Something that
> might serve
> the
> purpose, would be a gas with long molecules, that
> has ions stuck
> at
> the ends. If the molecules are long enough, and able
> to move
> freely,
> then when the plastic is immersed in a magnetic
> field, thermal
> motion
> will agitate the end ions, causing them to
> accelerate in the
> magnetic
> field, and radiate radio waves.
> Such a substance would absorb heat energy from the
> environment,
> and
> convert it into longer wavelength radio waves that
> we could then
> rectify and turn into electric current. As far as
> conventional
> entropy
> calculations are concerned this material would be
> down-converting
> radiant energy, so it would be seen as an increase
> in entropy.
> >
> >So Entropy works.  If you think entropy failed in
> some well understood
> >process, see the first comment.  If you think
> entropy failed in some ou
> >experiment, see the first comment again and go
> looking for where the extra
> >energy came from in the experiment.
> The bottom line as far as I am concerned, is that
> the ability to
> rectify a wave, results in negative entropy, i.e. it
> gives us the
> ability to convert random motion into directed
> motion.
> Our second "law" was written at a time when energy,
> once
> "randomised"
> could not be recovered. That may now be changing.
> 
> Ok, having now made abundantly clear for all the
> world to see,
> that I
> haven't really a clue what entropy really is, I will
> leave it to
> the
> rest of you to put me straight. :-)
> PS Don't worry Ross, your discourse was not wasted
> on me, but I
> want
> to see where this leads before "surrendering".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk



That's very nice!  It reminds me of my other design
based on T-rays ->

http://www.emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Intro

It's based on the fact that an ultra thin 1 square
meter sheet radiates ~900 watts of T-rays. I have
foolproof design that will generate several hundred
watts in the form of a hot and cold plate per square
meter. So you could stack hundreds of these per meter
high and achieve vast amounts of energy. The only
problem is what do you do with the heat & cold besides
air conditioning and heating?  The PowerChip will
supposedly be on the market next year, which could
efficiently convert this into electricity.

The design is not yet published because I would have
to spend some time searching for the appropriate
materials. It requires two materials that have highly
different refractive indexes between ~ 10 THz to 50
THz.  I know glass and germanium would work, but
germanium is relatively transparent at those
frequencies. Therefore the germanium plate would have
to be very thick, but that would be ridiculously
expensive.  Sterling's lawyer friend recommended that
I not publish the design until I know the materials.

You mention the second law of thermodynamics might be
changing. I would have to agree, but the physics
community will probably just append to its description
rather than admit error. Are you familiar with the Dew
Point experiment?

http://www.emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Dew_Point_Exp


Have you thought of a process to convert thermal to
radio waves?


Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Subject: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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Seismologists estimate the size of the North Korean explosion at between 1 and 15 kilotons. My bet: 1 kt. I mean literally, 1000 tons of explosive.

I just spoke with Mizuno about unrelated stuff, and he mentioned that his department at U. Hokkaido, Nuclear Engineering, has superb monitoring equipment, but they have not seen a thing. He said that even with an underground test "something comes out of the ground; we would seen some signature after 24 hours." I suppose the material migrates up the instrument lead-wires.

It would be laugh and a half if this turns out to be a fake nuclear test intended to make Kim look like a bad boy.

- Jed



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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:15:37 +1000
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In reply to  Paul's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:23:27 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
[snip]
>That's basically the idea. The broadband UHF radiation
>varies from material to material. The peak wavelength
>of such radiation is considerably lower for
>electrically conductive materials such as iron for
>obvious reasons.  Under normal core usages the
>radiation is incoherent, but if you magnetically flip
>all the spins at relatively the same time you then
>have a coherent pulse; i.e., tons of potential energy.

I suspect that if you place the entire device in a cavity designed
to resonate at the emitted frequency, then the resultant standing
waves in the cavity will help cohere the microwave emission. This
is analogous to he electron bunching effect in magnetrons.
Essentially, you have a "forced" oscillation, where the forcing
energy is supplied by the device rather than from an external
source.
BTW, I think that if you have "single atom domains", you will find
that all the domains are effectively the same size, and
consequently that should all emit at a single frequency (provided
that the magnetic field is uniform across the device), or have I
misunderstood? 

> Note that in such a case a great deal of the energy
>is not absorbed by the material because it's in a
>state of flipping to saturation.

Furthermore, by tapping the microwave radiation and rectifying it,
you are "sucking" it out as it were. Not exactly true, but what
you normally have is an equilibrium where energy is being both
emitted and absorbed. By attaching a "one way valve" to the energy
flow, you ensure that the equilibrium constantly shifts in the
direction of outflow. It's also what you are trying to do by
operating near saturation. In fact before the invention of diodes
magnetic saturation was widely used as a crude means of
rectification.

>
>
>
>> You mention small domains as being
>> advantageous. Could this be attained by reducing the
>> density of
>> the active atoms? IOW could you simply use a
>> compound that is
>> essentially an insulator, with say only one active
>> atom among ten
>> "insulator atoms"? That would appear to result in
>> domains
>> comprising single atoms.
>
>
>That's an interesting idea. It should work. It would
>probably decrease the materials saturation and
>permeability.  Your idea is somewhat similar to
>nanocrystalline material. One of your ferromagnetic
>atoms surround by insulation could be single crystal.
>A single nanocrystalline material is one large
>ferromagnetic crystal. Well, large as in a dozen or
>more atoms in diameter.
>
Use of a diode may mean that saturation is no longer so important,
and as to permeability, a loss in this regard, would just result
in a smaller power output, if have understood correctly. However I
don't see much use (yet), for 50 MW in the average home, so a drop
in power output to say 10 kW shouldn't really be a major problem.
What you really need to look at is power density, i.e. power/kg of
mass, then compare that to other power sources such as e.g. an
internal combustion engine.
Since you are going to be processing considerable power, your
device will either get very cold very quickly, or you need to
ensure rapid transport of heat to it. The latter is relatively
easily done by making the active component of your device a flat
plate, and binding it to a thin metal plate which forms one side
of a water pipe. Then water flowing through the pipe can carry
heat to the device. (This has the advantage of also providing
chilled water for air conditioning in the summer).
The pipe needs to constructed from a metal that won't interfere
with the operation of the device (copper?).
However the device itself also would ideally be a good thermal
conductor, while at the same time being a good electrical
insulator. The only substance I know, that comes close is BeO.
(highly toxic BTW).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:43:36
-0400 (GMT-04:00):
Hi,
[snip]
>Seismologists estimate the size of the North Korean explosion at between 1 and 15 kilotons. My bet: 1 kt. I mean literally, 1000 tons of explosive.

Then they obviously registered something, and clearly not natural.
Explosions have a different seismic signature to natural Earth
tremors.

>
>I just spoke with Mizuno about unrelated stuff, and he mentioned that his department at U. Hokkaido, Nuclear Engineering, has superb monitoring equipment, but they have not seen a thing. He said that even with an underground test "something comes out of the ground; we would seen some signature after 24 hours." I suppose the material migrates up the instrument lead-wires.

They would need to have something in orbit wouldn't they? I
thought that they would detect gammas from a real explosion
(though this was deep underground), and I thought the USA had
satellites in orbit specifically for this purpose (that picked up
the gammas from thunderstorms?). I doubt that they would be able
to pick up gammas in Hokkaido, because the curvature of the Earth
would put hundreds of km's of rock between them and the explosion.
So what exactly were they looking for, neutrinos?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 06:23:10 2006
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:21:34 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >Seismologists estimate the size of the North Korean explosion at 
> between 1 and 15 kilotons. My bet: 1 kt. I mean literally, 1000 
> tons of explosive.
>
>Then they obviously registered something, and clearly not natural.

Yes. But several people have suggested it may be a chemical explosion.


>"something comes out of the ground; we would seen some signature 
>after 24 hours." I suppose the material migrates up the instrument lead-wires.
>
>They would need to have something in orbit wouldn't they?

No. As I suggested, trace amounts of radioactive material migrate out 
via the instrument leads. See:

http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/

The New York Times reports that small underground nuclear explosions 
actually tend to release a little more radioactive material.

QUOTES:

Blast May Be Only a Partial Success, Experts Say

It will probably take several days to determine with confidence if 
the explosion was in fact nuclear, the official said. He added that 
so far, sensors had not detected radiation leaking from the blast 
site. But federal and private experts said it seemed unlikely that 
the North Koreans had faked an underground nuclear blast with a large 
pile of conventional high explosives.

. . . federal and private analysts said, the United States has long 
had spy satellites observing the North Korean site and appears to 
have found no signs of chemical explosives being unloaded.

"It's difficult to fake it when you know people are looking down on 
you," said Dr. Richards of Columbia. "The execution of a chemical 
explosion would be hard to hide."

Dr. Coyle, the former director of nuclear testing at Livermore, said 
small tests were more likely to leak radioactivity than large ones, 
because the intense heat and gigantic shock waves of bigger blasts 
tended to melt and pulverize nearby rock into impregnable barriers.



- Jed


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Subject: [VO]:Re: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankRobin wrote,

>I suspect that if you place the entire device in a cavity designed
to resonate at the emitted frequency, then the resultant standing
waves in the cavity will help cohere the microwave emission. This
is analogous to he electron bunching effect in magnetrons.
Essentially, you have a "forced" oscillation, where the forcing
energy is supplied by the device rather than from an external
source.
BTW, I think that if you have "single atom domains", you will find
that all the domains are effectively the same size, and
consequently that should all emit at a single frequency (provided
that the magnetic field is uniform across the device), or have I
misunderstood?=20

Howdy Robin,

Interesting point you make. We are struggling with the "how", that is =
how to place an antenna inside  the hollow center of a water vortex for =
microwaves. We have the "perfect eyewall" form by high speed rotation of =
the liquid using vacuum inducted air to stabilize the rotation.

Richard



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<DIV>Robin wrote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;I suspect that if you place the entire device in a cavity=20
designed<BR>to resonate at the emitted frequency, then the resultant=20
standing<BR>waves in the cavity will help cohere the microwave emission. =

This<BR>is analogous to he electron bunching effect in=20
magnetrons.<BR>Essentially, you have a "forced" oscillation, where the=20
forcing<BR>energy is supplied by the device rather than from an=20
external<BR>source.<BR>BTW, I think that if you have "single atom =
domains", you=20
will find<BR>that all the domains are effectively the same size,=20
and<BR>consequently that should all emit at a single frequency =
(provided<BR>that=20
the magnetic field is uniform across the device), or have =
I<BR>misunderstood?=20
<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Robin,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Interesting point you make. We are struggling with the "how", that =
is how=20
to place an antenna inside&nbsp; the hollow center of a water vortex for =

microwaves. We have the "perfect eyewall" form by high speed rotation of =
the=20
liquid using vacuum inducted air to stabilize the rotation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 08:27:01 2006
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:26:19 -0700
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Subject: [Vo]: Light w/o Heat
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In further pursuit of commonplace, but often overlooked, energy 
anomalies - ostensible violations of the laws of thermodynamics - 
here is yet another one, also based on a most unusual chemical - 
HOOH.

It is my contention that the unusual properties of HOOH may be the 
"expediting technology" for enhancing many alternative energy 
schemes. Apologies to readers who are not convinced of this yet, 
for usurping forum bandwidth; but for whatever reason, the October 
postings to vortex have dwindled anyway, so consider this as 
"light-weight" filler, if nothing else.

The main alternative energy technology for which peroxide may be a 
key future building block (synergistically) is *wind energy.* HOOH 
provides an ideal intermediate storage (liquid) and enhancement 
step for windmills, especially in areas without a "grid 
infrastructure". The added complexity of a "systems approach" is 
worth it. More on that in a later post.

The other day, information was also posted here (with no subject 
line, despite repeated attempts so it is not searchable in the 
archives) about the broad subject of "entropic explosion" which is 
an "explosion without heat." About as close to a "free energy" 
anomaly as mainstream science admits to, these days (that 
situation is soon to change).

The following is similar to entropic explosion. It is not a subset 
of that topic, but there are cross-connections. This general 
process is called "chemi-luminescence" - which is the strong 
emission of light, with or without heat. One could call this super 
high efficiency subset of chemiluminescence: the "firefly effect" 
and YES, the human version is based on biomimicry.

If you don't know what "glow sticks" are, and especially with 
Halloween coming up, here is a site that explains the 
"supernatural magic" of this device, but actually the technology 
behind light-sticks is simple:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/light-stick.htm

Glow sticks are based on a chemical process which releases copious 
light, and for surprisingly long time-spans, but produce 
negligible heat. This is sometimes referred to as "cold light" to 
contrast it with incandescent light - that which is associated 
with combustion, fire, or high temperature sources like bulb 
filaments.

There are three chemicals involved, two of which are kept 
separated by a breakable barrier. One is a phenyl oxalate ester, 
which is mixed with a dye. The other separated reaction chemical 
is that pivotal chemical: hydrogen peroxide. The dye is what 
actually releases the light, after heatless stimulation.

When you break the barrier keeping the chemicals apart, the phenyl 
oxalate ester and peroxide mix to produce an unstable compound 
which then transfers its chemical energy to the dye. The dye is 
the type used in posters that glow in the ultraviolet, the 
blacklight spectrum made famous to many Vo's by Mills' hydrino, 
but instead - here the glow energy comes from the unstable 
compound rather than from ultraviolet light. Ultraviolet light is 
in fact much higher energy light than normal visible light - so 
the natural expectation is that copious heat "should be" involved. 
The common type of UV laser in fact produces about 50 units of 
waste heat for every unit-equivalent of light.

Anyway, pick up a couple of glow ticks for the grand-kids and have 
yourself an enlightened Halloween, for a change.

With the flurry of recent OU announcements, perhaps this one will 
be considered by future historians to be a hallowed event, at 
least when the chapter on alternative-energy is being written.

Jones 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 08:29:57 2006
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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Hi Robin,

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006
> 18:23:27 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> [snip]
> > Note that in such a case a great deal of the
> energy
> >is not absorbed by the material because it's in a
> >state of flipping to saturation.
> 
> Furthermore, by tapping the microwave radiation and
> rectifying it,
> you are "sucking" it out as it were. Not exactly
> true, but what
> you normally have is an equilibrium where energy is
> being both
> emitted and absorbed. By attaching a "one way valve"
> to the energy
> flow, you ensure that the equilibrium constantly
> shifts in the
> direction of outflow. It's also what you are trying
> to do by
> operating near saturation. In fact before the
> invention of diodes
> magnetic saturation was widely used as a crude means
> of rectification.

Very nice!  If we could someone find magnetic material
that worked in the THz region we could have an
excellent free energy device thus converting ambient
energy into THz electricity with a DC component.  Of
course it's the DC component that's of interest.  That
would be some material though as the highest frequency
cores are in the GHz, correct?  Also material with a
square BH loop would greatly help.



> >
> >> You mention small domains as being
> >> advantageous. Could this be attained by reducing
> the
> >> density of
> >> the active atoms? IOW could you simply use a
> >> compound that is
> >> essentially an insulator, with say only one
> active
> >> atom among ten
> >> "insulator atoms"? That would appear to result in
> >> domains
> >> comprising single atoms.
> >
> >
> >That's an interesting idea. It should work. It
> would
> >probably decrease the materials saturation and
> >permeability.  Your idea is somewhat similar to
> >nanocrystalline material. One of your ferromagnetic
> >atoms surround by insulation could be single
> crystal.
> >A single nanocrystalline material is one large
> >ferromagnetic crystal. Well, large as in a dozen or
> >more atoms in diameter.
> >
> Use of a diode may mean that saturation is no longer
> so important,
> and as to permeability, a loss in this regard, would
> just result
> in a smaller power output, if have understood
> correctly. However I
> don't see much use (yet), for 50 MW in the average
> home, so a drop
> in power output to say 10 kW shouldn't really be a
> major problem.

Yes, lol, but it would an interesting display watching
50 MW dissipate across a coil wrapped around such a
small core. I'd imagine the UHF pulse alone would
knock out half Los Angeles.

Considering the heat capacity 470 J/Kg/K it would
lower the cores temperature to absolute zero in 360us
time _if_ we were to extract 50 MW of power from the 1
cubic inch of material. Although obviously heat
capacity is not linear to such extreme temperatures
since according to Einstein's equation, E=mc^2,
there's enough energy in one cubic inch of such
material to supply 50 MW for 7.4 years. Such low
temperatures are not realistic for core materials.

I agree though, 10 kW is more realistic, and quite
frankly I would be ecstatic for an _initial_ 10 watts
over input.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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Hi,

Does anyone have any ideas of making amorphous iron in
the garage?  This could possible work for the MEMM
core since it would most likely have nano size
domains.

The idea of heating iron to molten level does not
sound attractive, and then cooling it within
microseconds to achieve the amorphous stage. Yikes! 
Any ideas?  Supposedly the only method to achieve such
rapid cooling is by limiting the iron to a thin wire,
which is fine, and then perhaps rapidly pouring some
cold liquid over the iron.

Another idea is to make amorphous iron powder. This
could be mixed with a binder to make an amorphous iron
powder core. It might be easier to create such powder
iron since you can don't have to worry about cracking
the iron during the flash cooling stage. This would
allow you to basically hit the molten iron with a high
power flow of cold liquid.

Regardless then resulting iron would have to pure,
like 99.9+% pure.  Perhaps another problem is
preventing the liquid from appreciably reacting with
the iron.

Is this realistic?  Best to just buy the amorphous
powder iron, but where?

Thanks for any input.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance




--- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been a member here for over a year, but this is
> my first post, lol.  Are the posts supposed to start
> with [Vo]: ?
> 
> The following wiki is a good introduction to my work
> peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM
> 
> I would appreciate it if someone by chance knows a
> person who has access to a amorphous and
> nanocrystalline core. I live in Los Angeles, CA, USA
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas of making amorphous iron
> in
> the garage?  This could possible work for the MEMM
> core since it would most likely have nano size
> domains.
> 
> The idea of heating iron to molten level does not
> sound attractive, and then cooling it within
> microseconds to achieve the amorphous stage. Yikes! 
> Any ideas?  Supposedly the only method to achieve
> such
> rapid cooling is by limiting the iron to a thin
> wire,
> which is fine, and then perhaps rapidly pouring some
> cold liquid over the iron.
> 
> Another idea is to make amorphous iron powder. This
> could be mixed with a binder to make an amorphous
> iron
> powder core. It might be easier to create such
> powder
> iron since you can don't have to worry about
> cracking
> the iron during the flash cooling stage. This would
> allow you to basically hit the molten iron with a
> high
> power flow of cold liquid.
> 
> Regardless then resulting iron would have to pure,
> like 99.9+% pure.  Perhaps another problem is
> preventing the liquid from appreciably reacting with
> the iron.
> 
> Is this realistic?  Best to just buy the amorphous
> powder iron, but where?
> 
> Thanks for any input.
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I've been a member here for over a year, but this
> is
> > my first post, lol.  Are the posts supposed to
> start
> > with [Vo]: ?
> > 
> > The following wiki is a good introduction to my
> work
> > peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM
> > 
> > I would appreciate it if someone by chance knows a
> > person who has access to a amorphous and
> > nanocrystalline core. I live in Los Angeles, CA,
> USA
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Paul Lowrance



Here's an interesting technique ->

http://www.vacuumschmelze.de/dynamic/en/home/researchampinnovation/processtechnology/vacuuminductionmelting.php

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to make a
vacuum induction melting pot.  Not sure if it does any
good to put the iron in a vacuum to help remove
impurities if I'm just going to be pouring a liquid on
it.


This looks easier ->
http://www.vacuumschmelze.de/dynamic/en/home/researchampinnovation/processtechnology/rapidsolidificationtechnology.php

Iron is made molten with induction coils, then a
ceramic nozzle allows a thin amount to pour on a cold
casting wheel.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul" <softwarelabus yahoo.com>

> Regardless then resulting iron would have to pure, like 99.9+% 
> pure.


Hope you have good funding.

http://www.pureiron.com/

has 98.8% purity - relatively cheap, if they can be believed. 
Goodfellows is 10-100 x more in cost but you get 3-nines 
guaranteed ... yet the price is almost prohibitive for the 
tinkerer.

BTW - the site above appears to be down, as I was trying to log on 
to check the current price. Try later and see if they got things 
"ironed out".


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Hi All,

I've added some material from C. Warren Hunt
to that enclosed below for your information.

Jack Smith

---------------

Harry Veeder wrote:

Massive oil field found under Gulf

Reserves south of New Orleans could rival North Slope,
boosting U.S. supplies by 50%

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp'ARTICLE_ID=51837

Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the
discovery of a giant oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico
that could boost the nation's supplies by as much as 50
percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful
deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis.

Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

The abiotic theory always sounded plausible to me, but
there's a problem with it:  The oil is still produced
very slowly.

Note that "fossil fuels" are produced continuously,
also.  In either case the problem is that the terrestrial
production rate is far slower than the current consumption
rate.  So, biotic or abiotic, there comes a day when
there isn't any more, and won't be any again for a long,
long time.

The interesting conclusion of the abiotic theory is that
there may be more large oil fields than expected, because
exploration has been guided by the biotic theory and so
the oil companies haven't looked everywhere they should.
But that still doesn't translate into anything that allows
one to conclude oil is inexhaustible at current use rates.

leaking pen wrote:

first off, how does this give evidence of an abiotic
source'  I'm missing something.

second, even if true, its formed very very slowly.
meaning we WILL run out.

On 9/12/06, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

Massive oil field found under Gulf

Reserves south of New Orleans could rival North Slope,
boosting U.S. supplies by 50%

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp'ARTICLE_ID=51837

Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the
discovery of a giant oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico
that could boost the nation's supplies by as much as 50
percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful
deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis.

Known as the Jack Field, the reserve, some 270 miles
southwest of New Orleans, is estimated to hold as much as
15 billion barrels of oil.

Authors Jerome R. Corsi and Craig R. Smith say the giant
find validates the key thesis of their book, "Black Gold
Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of
Oil ," that oil did not come from the remains of ancient
plant and animal life but is made naturally by the Earth.

"We have always rejected the theories that oil and natural
gas are biological products," Corsi told WND. "Chevron's
find in the Gulf of Mexico validates our argument that the
Gulf is a huge resource for finding oil and natural gas."

The Wall Street Journal reports today the find could boost
the nation's current reserves of 29.3 billion barrels by
as much as 50 percent ...

Corsi and Smith note the power of the abiotic theory:
"Could it be that oil is abundant, nearly an inexhaustible
resource, if only we drill deep enough'"

Prior to the Jack Field discovery, the largest U.S. oil
find in the Gulf of Mexico has been the Thunder Horse ,
about 125 miles southeast of New Orleans. British Petroleum
holds a 75-percent interest with ExxonMobil to develop
the Thunder Horse. This field, too, is deep-earth oil,
with BP and ExxonMobil finding oil under one mile of water
and five miles below the seabed.

Scientists believe Mexico's richest oil field complex was
created when the prehistoric, massive Chicxulub meteor
impacted the Earth.

"Could it be that the Chicxulub meteor deeply fractured
the entire bedrock under the Gulf of Mexico'" Corsi asked
in a WND interview. "If so, we might find abundant oil
wherever we look as we begin to explore the deeper waters
of the Gulf."

Earlier this year, Cuba announced plans to hire the
communist Chinese to drill for oil some 45 miles off the
shores of Florida. This move was made possible by the
1977 agreement under President Jimmy Carter that created
for Cuba an "Exclusive Economic Zone" extending from
the country's western tip to the north, virtually to Key
West, Fla.

"If Cuba and communist China believe they too can find
oil in the Gulf, we should pull out all stops," argues
Smith. "We may be able to bring the price of gasoline
down under two dollars a gallon if oil can be found in
these huge quantities within our territorial waters. It's
crazy to think we should be dependent on foreign oil when
we've made Mexico our number two supplier of oil with the
reserves Mexico has found in the Gulf."

"Thomas Gold should feel vindicated today," Corsi added,
referring to the Cornell University astronomer who in
1998 published "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil
Fuels," a book that also challenged the conventional wisdom
on the origin of oil ...

------------------

http://www.searchanddiscovery.net/documents/abstracts/2005research_calgary/abstracts/extended/hunt/hunt.htm

Hydrides and Anhydrides

C. Warren Hunt

1119 Sydenham Road SW

CALGARY, ALBERTA, CANADA T2T 0T5

Tel. (403)-244-3341, Fax (403) 244-2834

E-mail: archeanc telusplanet.net

Hydrogen being 90% or more of all matter in the Universe,
must have been abundantly present in the formation of
the early earth. The consensus among scientists has been
that most primordial hydrogen was expelled as the earth
accreted. New evidence challenges the consensus raises
questions as to the validity of other long-held geological
concepts.

The new evidence involves the behavior of hydrogen nucleii,
which at pressures characteristic of mantle depths have
shed their electrons and inject themselves inside the first
electron rings of metal atoms. Thus sequestered within the
earth, hydrogen may comprise as much as 30-40 percent of
total earth mass today.

Hydrogen penetration into metals was demonstrated by
Vladimir N. Larin, a geologist, whose project over the last
34 years has been research in the USSR and FSU on sources
of natural hydrogen. Three major effects result from the
phenomenon: (1) transmutation, (2) densification, and (3)
fluidization ...

>From this data it is easily shown that the excess core and
mantle density above that of the crust can be attributed
to injected hydrogen, and the density differences between
inner core, outer core, and lower mantle can be treated
as phase effects. In this scenario the idea of an iron
core is superfluous.

V.N. Larin demonstrated the fluidity of titanium hydride
for this writer by setting a ruby in plasticized titanium
intermetal. Under reduced pressure the hydrogen bled off,
allowing the metal to recrystallize and leave the ruby
set firmly in metallic titanium.

The potassium and titanium behaviors are not unique. All
elements but noble gases form hydrides, some readily,
others not so readily. Thus, a mixture of non-metal
hydrides and fluidic intermetals that comprised
the interior of the primordial earth should undergo
fractionation and coalescense of components on the basis
of mobility and density differences.

Non-metal hydrides, H2O, NH3, H2S, CH4, that were present
during accretion of the earth would have been the first
to go. Expelled, they accumulated as atmosphere and
hydrosphere. Solar wind bombardment and dissociation
of non-metal hydrides allowed hydrogen to escape into
space. This left residual oxygen and nitrogen to build up
in the atmosphere, which then enabled a transformation in
the biosphere. Replacement of the early Archean biota of
hydrogen-tolerant prokaryotes by oxygen-tolerant eukaryotes
in the late Archean is clear evidence of the conversion
of the atmosphere at that time.

Intermetal hydride plumes would follow. Coalescing on
the bases of differential fluidity and density, viscous
intermetal plumes rise buoyantly through the mantle,
perhaps lubricated by hydrides of the earth's third most
abundant element, the transition element, silicon. Rising
into regimes of reduced pressure the intermetals dissociate
or oxidize, creating crust in the forms of rock-forming
minerals and metal ores.

The hydrides of silicon, the silanes (SiH4, Si2H6,
Si3H8, Si4H10, etc.) are of special interest. Gases at
standard conditions, they react vigorously with water,
producing quartz, volcanic ash, and rock-forming minerals,
depending on depth, pressure and the admixture of other
metal hydrides. The high mobility of silane explains
the mode of transfer of silicon from the interior to
the oxidic crust. Crust then is the residue after silane
and intermetal oxidation and release of hydrogen, which
eventually escapes into space.

Carbon, the sister element of silicon, is a lesser
component of earth makeup, but probably is prominent in
the form of carbides in the interior. Its primary hydride
form, methane (CH4), although energy-laden like silane,
behaves quite differently in three important contrasting
ways. First, it does not react with water; second, its
combustion products are only gases; and third, it enables
the biosphere.

Where silane is stalled in the crust by reacting with
water, methane and hydrogen released by its partial
oxidation proceed upward in fracture pathways. Methane and
hydrogen seep into deep, shield mines and through porous
members of sedimentary series. Both are major constituents
of fluid inclusions in sub-oceanic basalts as well as in
shield granites. Their migration is differentially impeded
due to their different molecular sizes. Methane may be
trapped temporarily, while hydrogen escapes. Both enter
the atmosphere worldwide on a large scale.

Thus the hydridic earth image comprises a mobile inner
geosphere of highly-reduced, dense, intermetals and
carbides, an outer geosphere of oxidic rock that has
accumulated incrementally through geological time, and
a transient liquid-gas envelope. The image implies a
core that is neither iron nor very hot, because the heat
source for endogeny is primarily not primordial heat but
the chemical energy released in the upper mantle and lower
crust, near the crust-mantle boundary by hydride oxidation.

Hydrocarbons other than methane are partially oxidized
carbon forms, and thus unlikely to occur in any form but
methane in the earth's interior where extreme reducing
conditions prevail. When methane rises to outer crust
levels from the interior, its chemical energy is available
to metabolize bacteria and archaea that live there in total
darkness at elevated temperatures. They get that energy
by stripping hydrogen from the methane and oxidizing it
metabolically.

When bacteria and archaea strip hydrogen from methane,
they create 'anhydrides' of methane, CH3, CH2, etc. Two
CH3s combine to make C2H6, ethane; two CH3s and one
CH2 make C3H8, propane, etc. The process is known on
the surface, where outcrops of petroliferous strata
sometimes are sealed by bacterially produced tar seals
behind which live oil has accumulated. In this case,
bacteria have stripped hydrogen from live oil, rendering
it immobile. Anhydride theory merely extrapolates the
process backward to explain stripping of methane, the
lowest carbon numbered hydrocarbon. Petroleum can be
interpreted as degenerated methane, a product of the
biosphere. Petroleum produced by bacterial stripping of
methane is, a mixture of anhydrides of methane, an organic
product produced from inorganic methane.

Coal and oil shales are also anhydride products. In peat
and kerogen-rich shales, partially oxidized carbon is
present that has lost electrons and thus carries positive
charges. By contrast, the carbon in methane that effuses
from the highly reduced earth interior has acquired
electrons and is negatively charged. Opposite charges
cause capture of effusing methane by peat and kerogen. Once
captured, methane is stripped progressively of its hydrogen
by bacteria and archaea that naturally occur in the peat
and kerogen.

The terminal anhydride, pure carbon, the main component of
the purest coals and asphaltites, and protein molecules
(porphyrins and others) that are found in petroleum and
coal are molecular residues of organic origin. The fact
that coal and oil shales have more carbon and hydrogen
than their peat and fossil predecessors is clear evidence
that fossils cannot fully explain their origins. These
high carbon and hydrogen contents of oil shales and coals
require abiogenic additions, whereas organic molecules
require organic provenance. Methane and petroleum found in
coal seams and organic shales should be seen as evidence
of methane capture, not methane generation.

The topology of petroleum occurrence is a further defeat
for the argument in favour of either an exclusively organic
or exclusively abiogenic origin for petroleum. If oil
were either rising from primordial sources in the earth's
interior or created in 'oil windows' by catagenesis,
the more mobile fractions would escape from the depths
and be found more abundantly near the surface and less
mobile fractions, low gravity oils, would be present at
depth. Exactly the opposite is the norm. Methane gas,
the most mobile hydrocarbon, is more abundant with depth,
worldwide; and tars, the least mobile, are most abundant
at and near the surface.

Working backwards through the above points, we can
say that:

Topologies of hydrocarbon occurrences indicate that methane
effuses from the interior, not petroleum;

that Topologies of hydrocarbon occurrences indicate that
low-gravity oil is not generated at depth in oil windows;

that Methane beneficiates fossiliferous shales and peat
deposits, creating oil shales and coal. Oil shales and
coal do not generate methane;

methane generates oil shales and coal;

that Bacteria and archaea in the outer crust strip
hydrogen from methane progressively through condensates,
high gravity oil, and low gravity oil, to bitumens;

that Hydrides of silicon and carbon along with intermetals
rise into crustal levels where dissociation and oxidation
liberate the heat of endogeny and deposit rock-forming
minerals, and metal deposits, leaving only methane and
hydrogen to effuse into the atmosphere;

that Nonmetal hydrides escaping from the interior of
the primordial earth created a reducing atmosphere that
was changed over to oxygen-rich by the loss of hydrogen
to space;

and that The discovery that hydrogen nuclei under pressure
penetrate atomic shells of metals, transmuting the metals
to intermetals, densifying them, and fluidizing them,
creates an entirely new geological picture of the earth's
interior, of endogeny, and of the mode by which the crust
was created.


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In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:51:08
-0500:
Hi Richard,
[snip]
>Interesting point you make. We are struggling with the "how", that is how to place an antenna inside  the hollow center of a water vortex for microwaves. We have the "perfect eyewall" form by high speed rotation of the liquid using vacuum inducted air to stabilize the rotation.
[snip]
I suspect you meant:- "We are struggling with the "how", that is
how to place an antenna for microwaves inside  the hollow center
of a water vortex."

I don't really see the problem. Assuming your vortex is vertical,
why can't you just lower the antenna on a boom? However I'm more
interested in why you would want to do it in the first place? :)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 14:54:51 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:54:18 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:21:34
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>>They would need to have something in orbit wouldn't they?
>
>No. As I suggested, trace amounts of radioactive material migrate out 
>via the instrument leads. See:
>
>http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/

Even if small amounts of radioactive material did come out via the
instrument leads, or even through cracks in the ground, I still
fail to see how this could be detected in Hokkaido. The surface of
the Earth is curved, and the test site would be well below the
horizon, as seen from the University. Since gammas follow line of
sight, they would have to pass through hundreds of km of rock to
get there. In short, what were they expecting to see?
OTOH, gamma emitting radioactive materials that reached the
surface would easily be detected from orbit.
The USA must have been watching, they had plenty of warning.

On my third hand ;) , we only have reports on the news that any of
this happened at all. Perhaps the whole thing is a planted story
to make the North Koreans look bad?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 15:16:31 2006
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:14:51 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >No. As I suggested, trace amounts of radioactive material migrate out
> >via the instrument leads. See:
> >
> >http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/
>
>Even if small amounts of radioactive material did come out via the
>instrument leads, or even through cracks in the ground, I still
>fail to see how this could be detected in Hokkaido.

The prevailing winds would carry radioactive isotopes directly to 
Hokkaido. Mizuno feels they could not miss them, even with an 
underground test. Also, I am sure there are spy planes prowling the 
sky closer to the test site at this moment. I have seen no 
announcements confirming the isotopes. Despite the New York Times I 
still suspect it is a hoax. One should not always trust the Times.


>On my third hand ;) , we only have reports on the news that any of
>this happened at all. Perhaps the whole thing is a planted story
>to make the North Koreans look bad?

The North Koreans want to look bad. That's the weird part.

If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged 
it. Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like 
a stupid thing to do.

- Jed

--=====================_32801859==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Robin van Spaandonk wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">&gt;No. As I suggested, trace
amounts of radioactive material migrate out <br>
&gt;via the instrument leads. See:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/</a><br><br>
Even if small amounts of radioactive material did come out via the<br>
instrument leads, or even through cracks in the ground, I still<br>
fail to see how this could be detected in Hokkaido.</blockquote><br>
The prevailing winds would carry radioactive isotopes directly to
Hokkaido. Mizuno feels they could not miss them, even with an underground
test. Also, I am sure there are spy planes prowling the sky closer to the
test site at this moment. I have seen no announcements confirming the
isotopes. Despite the New York Times I still suspect it is a hoax. One
should not always trust the Times.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On my third hand ;) , we only
have reports on the news that any of<br>
this happened at all. Perhaps the whole thing is a planted story<br>
to make the North Koreans look bad?</blockquote><br>
The North Koreans <i>want</i> to look bad. That's the weird
part.<br><br>
If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged it.
Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like a stupid
thing to do.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_32801859==.ALT--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 16:00:37 2006
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
>> >No. As I suggested, trace amounts of radioactive material migrate out
>> >via the instrument leads. See:
>> >
>> >http://www.slate.com/id/2151214/nav/tap2/
>>
>> Even if small amounts of radioactive material did come out via the
>> instrument leads, or even through cracks in the ground, I still
>> fail to see how this could be detected in Hokkaido.
> 
> 
> The prevailing winds would carry radioactive isotopes directly to 
> Hokkaido. Mizuno feels they could not miss them, even with an 
> underground test. Also, I am sure there are spy planes prowling the sky 
> closer to the test site at this moment. I have seen no announcements 
> confirming the isotopes. Despite the New York Times I still suspect it 
> is a hoax. One should not always trust the Times.
> 
> 
>> On my third hand ;) , we only have reports on the news that any of
>> this happened at all. Perhaps the whole thing is a planted story
>> to make the North Koreans look bad?
> 
> 
> The North Koreans want to look bad. That's the weird part.
> 
> If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged 
> it. Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like a 
> stupid thing to do.

Of course, this assumes the Chinese are really upset.  Having NK being a 
nuclear power to distract attention from what the Chinese are doing 
would be a clever ploy. We shall have to wait to see what the Chinese 
actually do to NK.

Ed
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 18:01:06 2006
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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:55:36 -0500
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> Ed sez:

> > Jed sez:
>
> > If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged
> > it. Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like a
> > stupid thing to do.

> Of course, this assumes the Chinese are really upset.  Having NK being a
> nuclear power to distract attention from what the Chinese are doing
> would be a clever ploy. We shall have to wait to see what the Chinese
> actually do to NK.
>
> Ed

That's a tad too conspiratorial for me, even though I would agree with the
likelihood that what China says should not necessarily be linked with what
they eventually do.

>From what I gather China is terrified of the disquieting possibility of
furthering the collapse of the regime. It would cause a catastrophic
increase of refugees, starving and desperate, streaming across the boarder
into China. That's a "not in my backyard" scenario they want to avoid at all
costs.

regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 22:01:19 2006
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Paul wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Does anyone have any ideas of making amorphous iron in
>the garage?  This could possible work for the MEMM
>core since it would most likely have nano size
>domains.
>
The amorphus iron reminds me of the Mueller generator. His writings 
intiminated that the generator was over unity. As for pure iron, I would 
suggest five nines grade from a laboratory supply house.


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 9 Oct 2006 20:43:36
>-0400 (GMT-04:00):
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>Seismologists estimate the size of the North Korean explosion at between 1 and 15 kilotons. My bet: 1 kt. I mean literally, 1000 tons of explosive.
>>
The number I heard was that the explosion was the equivelant of 550 tons.

>Then they obviously registered something, and clearly not natural.
>Explosions have a different seismic signature to natural Earth
>tremors.
>
That's what I heard.

>
>>I just spoke with Mizuno about unrelated stuff, and he mentioned that his department at U. Hokkaido, Nuclear Engineering, has superb monitoring equipment, but they have not seen a thing. He said that even with an underground test "something comes out of the ground; we would seen some signature after 24 hours." I suppose the material migrates up the instrument lead-wires.
>>
>
I would expect that it would shatter the rock for quite an area. In 
order to place the bomb, you'd have to drill a large tube into the rock. 
I would assume that this tube would be filled with concrete, but given 
the shock, and the difference in strength between the rock and the 
concrete, I would expect the concrete to totally fracture. This would   
release gas, which could be sampled by a high flying aircraft, which is, 
I assume what they are doing now. I would expect there to be Pu in 
addition to the fission products, and an analysis of them would yeild an 
understanding of what happened, and how efficiently the process went.

>They would need to have something in orbit wouldn't they? I
>thought that they would detect gammas from a real explosion
>(though this was deep underground), and I thought the USA had
>satellites in orbit specifically for this purpose (that picked up
>the gammas from thunderstorms?). I doubt that they would be able
>to pick up gammas in Hokkaido, because the curvature of the Earth
>would put hundreds of km's of rock between them and the explosion.
>So what exactly were they looking for, neutrinos?
>[snip]
>Regards,
>



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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:03:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul" <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
> 
> > Regardless then resulting iron would have to pure,
> like 99.9+% 
> > pure.
> 
> 
> Hope you have good funding.
> 
> http://www.pureiron.com/
> 
> has 98.8% purity - relatively cheap, if they can be
> believed. 
> Goodfellows is 10-100 x more in cost but you get
> 3-nines 
> guaranteed ... yet the price is almost prohibitive
> for the 
> tinkerer.
> 
> BTW - the site above appears to be down, as I was
> trying to log on 
> to check the current price. Try later and see if
> they got things 
> "ironed out".


Hi Jones,

The site www.pureiron.com is still down. Did they go
out of business?

The goal is to find inexpensive pure iron or an
inexpensive process of creating it. The goal is to
publicly release the exact detailed build instructions
of the "smoking gun."  A lot of people cannot afford
$200 for a single magnetic core. Realistically such a
core, at least during initial designs, would generate
perhaps up to 100 watts, and even that is a feat. To
achieve 1 KW could require 10 such cores ($2000),
which IMHO is way too expensive.  Don't get me wrong,
if that's the last option then so fine.

I'm wondering what permeability 98.8% pure iron would
have.  I know extremely pure iron can have
permeability near 1 million.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >Does anyone have any ideas of making amorphous iron
> in
> >the garage?  This could possible work for the MEMM
> >core since it would most likely have nano size
> >domains.
> >
> The amorphus iron reminds me of the Mueller
> generator. His writings 
> intiminated that the generator was over unity. As
> for pure iron, I would 
> suggest five nines grade from a laboratory supply
> house.


Hi Thomas,

You're the 2nd person to tell me this. I should get in
contact with his daughter.  BTW, do you have a contact
for five nines grade iron?

Thanks,
Paul Lowrance


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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:50:05 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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On 10/11/06, Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering what permeability 98.8% pure iron would
> have.  I know extremely pure iron can have
> permeability near 1 million.

The metals used in shielding the NiFeBo head drive magnet in a hard
disk drive has incredibile permeability.

Terry

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:15:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Terry Blanton <hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/11/06, Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm wondering what permeability 98.8% pure iron
> would
> > have.  I know extremely pure iron can have
> > permeability near 1 million.
> 
> The metals used in shielding the NiFeBo head drive
> magnet in a hard
> disk drive has incredibile permeability.
> 
> Terry


Really!  I have truck loads of old HD's, one in fact
is open ... will have to take a look at that.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>> Ed sez:
>>     
>
>   
>>> Jed sez:
>>>       
>>> If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged
>>> it. Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like a
>>> stupid thing to do.
>>>       
>
>   
>> Of course, this assumes the Chinese are really upset.  Having NK being a
>> nuclear power to distract attention from what the Chinese are doing
>> would be a clever ploy. We shall have to wait to see what the Chinese
>> actually do to NK.
>>
>> Ed
>>     
>
> That's a tad too conspiratorial for me, even though I would agree with the
> likelihood that what China says should not necessarily be linked with what
> they eventually do.
>
> >From what I gather China is terrified of the disquieting possibility of
> furthering the collapse of the regime.
China also is a rather extreme proponent of non-interference in the 
domestic affairs of other countries.  That's been proposed as part of 
the reason that China (and Russia) seem to oppose all action to stop 
Iran from building their own nukes.   (The fact that Iran is in Russia's 
back yard has had me scratching my head over that one -- if I lived in 
Russia I sure wouldn't want Iran to have nuclear arms, yet Putin doesn't 
give any indication of caring about the issue.)

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:41:09 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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On 10/11/06, Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:

> Really!  I have truck loads of old HD's, one in fact
> is open ... will have to take a look at that.

Indeed.  You can remove the magnet with a small hammer and chisel.
The geometry is something like a 30 degree arc, 1 inch wide and 1/4
inch thick.

Terry

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> From Steve Lawrence

> > From Steven Vincent Johnson
> > From what I gather China is terrified of the disquieting possibility of
> > furthering the collapse of the regime.

> China also is a rather extreme proponent of non-interference in the
> domestic affairs of other countries.  That's been proposed as part
> of the reason that China (and Russia) seem to oppose all action to
> stop Iran from building their own nukes.

Non-interference? I beg to differ. You might want to take that up with a few
Tibetans. I don't believe the Taiwanese are any happier about China's
"meddling" either.

BTW, our family lived in Taiwan for three years back in the early 60's, when
ousted leader Chiang Kai-shek, leader of the Nationalist party who
unceremoniously skedaddled over to Taiwan, (and who also in the process
removed the indigenous government), still had illusions of grandeur of
reclaiming the motherland. I'm sure the feeling was mutual on the other
side.

>  (The fact that Iran is in Russia's back yard has had me scratching my
head
> over that one -- if I lived in Russia I sure wouldn't want Iran to have
nuclear
> arms, yet Putin doesn't give any indication of caring about the issue.)

Yes, on the surface it doesn't seem very logical, does it.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



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Subject: [Vo]: OT: Solar Energy Is Draining Our Sun
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Subject: Solar Energy Is Draining Our Sun

PLANET EARTH-- With gas hovering at over a dollar per litre, the search is
on for other viable sources of energy. We are rapidly exhausting Earth's
sources of fossil fuels and there is a desperate need for an energy
alternative. A perennial favourite is solar power, but its utilization could
come at an enormous cost to future generations.

Solar panels are already draining our sun of vital energy. As more panels
are set up, more solar energy is removed from future generations. Without
realizing it, the lifetime of our life-giving star is being threatened by
the careless absorption of precious solar radiation. And if every Joe
American lined his roof with solar panels, we'd suck the energy out of the
sun faster than college freshmen on a free beer keg.

That energy model just isn't sustainable. Arrays of solar panels will only
contribute to the depletion of the sun's energy. And it's getting worse.
Automobile producers are already developing hybrid vehicles that will
capture the sun's rays to power our cars, trucks, and SUVs. Scientists and
researchers continue to find new ways to harness the sun's rays and improve
the efficiency of solar-powered cells. But what thought is being put into
the long-term effects of this excessive solar power use?

Every day, solar energy is frittered away on solar-powered flashlights,
solar-powered garden lanterns, and even solar-powered tanning machines--and
we presume that there is a limitless supply of sunshine to power these
devices. But at the present rate of consumption, solar energy reserves will
most certainly be depleted a couple billion years sooner than expected, and
then we'll all be sitting in the dark, wondering how we're going to run our
stereos, hairdryers, and Vitamix machines.

Unfortunately, there aren't any solar conservation movements to communicate
the necessity to protect and ration the burning of the sun's
not-so-everlasting power. The heat should be on to find other viable sources
of energy, or at the very least, slow down our solar energy consumption so
that our sun can continue to grow our food, light our planet, and heat our
pools for many years to come.

Solar energy is a clean alternative to oil, coal, and natural gas, but we
must realize that there are limits. If we tap into the sun's radiation with
our eyes closed, we risk the untimely depletion of its reserves, and then
we'll all be sorry.

Source: The Toque - World leader in Canadian Humor Parody & Satire
http://www.thetoque.com/science/technology/solar_energy_is_draining_our_sun_
20060220.htm 

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:13:57 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Massive oil field found under Gulf
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I dunno...
but without deep oil to lubricate the axle of rotation, the Earth would
stop spinning. 

:P

Harry.

leaking pen wrote:

> first off, how does this give evidence of an abiotic source?  im
> missing something.
> 
> second, even if true, its formed very very slowly.  meaning we WILL run out.
> 
> On 9/12/06, Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> Massive oil field found under Gulf
>> 
>> Reserves south of New Orleans could rival
>> North Slope, boosting U.S. supplies by 50%
>> 
>> http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51837
>> 
>> Chevron and two oil exploration companies announced the discovery of a giant
>> oil reserve in the Gulf of Mexico that could boost the nation's supplies by
>> as much as 50 percent and provide compelling evidence oil is a plentiful
>> deep-earth product made naturally on a continuous basis.
>> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 20:56:20 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:55:46 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:11:08 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
[snip]
>contact with his daughter.  BTW, do you have a contact
>for five nines grade iron?
[snip]
Isn't pure iron just going to convert all those lovely microwaves
into pure heat?
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006
> 08:11:08 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> [snip]
> >contact with his daughter.  BTW, do you have a
> contact
> >for five nines grade iron?
> [snip]
> Isn't pure iron just going to convert all those
> lovely microwaves
> into pure heat?
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk


Hi Robin,

Under normal usage the magnetic material absorbs most
of the radiation. The radiation is typically in the
hundreds of MHz (not GHz) for non-electrical materials
and considerably lower in frequency for electrically
conductive materials such as iron. In electrically
conductive materials the free electrons act as
inductance, which slows down the electrons flip rate.
So in iron, depending on purity, the peak radiation
frequency ranges from KHz to MHz, not hundreds of MHz
let alone GHz. Even if it were microwaves (GHz), which
for the most part the radiation is not, the metal
would act as a high refractive index. In other words,
the metal would slow down the radiation velocity.
Furthermore, most of the radiation would internally
reflect off the cores outer walls. Note that in
microwave ovens the metal reflects the radiation--
only a small amount is absorbed. This process of
slowing down the radiation and reflecting is
understood when studying electrodynamics in detail.
Also you can see this effect in electrodynamic
computer simulations. The end result would be most of
the radiation reflecting internally, which would cause
heat. Here's a list of methods to decrease the
magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation in
addition to increasing the potential radiation.

1.  Use materials with smallest domains at operating
temperatures-- amorphous and nanocrystalline cores.
The smaller the domain the more potential energy. When
times permit I would like to precisely demonstrate
this in a step-by-step process using conventional
physics.
2. The thinner the core the better! Your goal is to
prevent the core from absorbing the MCE radiation.
Presently I am pondering upon a design that uses long
thin magnetic electrically conductive wires. The thin
wire would be the core and coil.
3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated core
prevents the intrinsic electron spins from absorbing
the magnetocaloric energy. Of course a fully saturated
core is useless, but no realistic coil can fully
saturate magnetic material. The core should be close
to saturation.
4. Unless you use filters you'll need to flip the
process so you can collect the energy during the cores
radiating cycle. You do this with a permanent magnet.
Also the PM helps saturate the core, but you don't
want to fully saturate it.
5. The field from your coil will oppose the PM's
field. So you slowly increase your coil current to
decrease the cores net applied field and then you want
to drop the current or reverse the current as quickly
as possible (high di/dt). High di/dt causes a higher
percentage of the electron spins to flip
simultaneously, which in turn greatly reduces the
cores ability to absorb MCE energy, which allows more
of the energy to escape the core. In short, ultra high
di/dt lowers the effective permeability, which in turn
prevents the core from absorbing a great deal of the
MCE energy, which your circuit can then properly
absorb. If the core material has low electrical
resistivity then the Eddy currents will absorb the
radiating energy and then with precise timing you can
rob a certain percentage of the Eddy currents energy.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

>>Ed sez:
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>>Jed sez:
>>>      
>>>
>>>If it is a hoax, they have fooled the Chinese government, and enraged
>>>it. Since they depend on that government for survival, it seems like a
>>>stupid thing to do.
>>>      
>>>
>
>  
>
>>Of course, this assumes the Chinese are really upset.  Having NK being a
>>nuclear power to distract attention from what the Chinese are doing
>>would be a clever ploy. We shall have to wait to see what the Chinese
>>actually do to NK.
>>
>>Ed
>>    
>>
>
>That's a tad too conspiratorial for me, even though I would agree with the
>likelihood that what China says should not necessarily be linked with what
>they eventually do.
>
>>From what I gather China is terrified of the disquieting possibility of
>furthering the collapse of the regime. It would cause a catastrophic
>increase of refugees, starving and desperate, streaming across the boarder
>into China. That's a "not in my backyard" scenario they want to avoid at all
>costs.
>  
>
That may in fact be the best thing that could happen. The world would be 
willing to help and unlike Darfor there are roads, rail links to ports 
etc to move the refugees and supplies. Chinese communisms greater fear 
is the millions of korean people, disausioned with communism, talking to 
much to the chinese.

>regards,
>Steven Vincent Johnson
>www.OrionWorks.com
>www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>  
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 12:00:39 2006
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For ages, it has been possible to easily separate and enrich 
miscible liquids into "rough" components - or even to enrich 
atomic elements isotopically using only spin - simple centrifugal 
methods. But until recently the basic spin-process was seldom 
considered as a substitute for the more energy-intensive 
enrichment processes like distillation. That can change with three 
types of spin-hybrids.
1) spin plus filtration (or osmosis)
2) spin plus magnetization (or e-field polarization)
3) spin plus a "binder"
In general, the energy required to spin-separate a liquid into 
components (like whole milk) ranges from less than one percent to 
ten percent of what would be required to distill. Even so-called 
ultra-centrifugation is usually only a fraction.

Some recent success in finding a combinatory enrichment 
technique - which is efficient in the enrichment of peroxide from 
dilute mixtures (which will be reported on later) got me to 
thinking about the possibility of using something similar to this 
for biofuels - even though the density gradient is much less 
accommodating. The multiple goals of this would be to avoid 
distillation, expedite continuous (non-batch) fermentation, and 
thereby to enrich directly from a fermenting mash in one step - 
returning the dilatants immediately to a continuous - not a 
batch - process.

The first use would be "on the farm." A farmer with as little as 
20 acres should be able to devote a tenth of that to making and 
refining all of the tractor fuel, home heating fuel and 
transportation fuel needed, by growing and cutting grass or cane. 
There have been objections voiced that this would somehow "deplete 
the soil" but there are parts of the world where farm-land has 
been intensively farmed by humans for 6000 years and is still 
productive. Even fully depleted-soil (watered sand) will grow 
grass or cane. It is a hollow argument.

Given that single-celled yeasts and engineered bacteria are now 
available to ferment cellulose biowaste (hay) quickly; then all 
that is needed for energy self-sufficiency is to convert the same 
into diesel-like methyl and ethyl esters, with mixed alcohols and 
up to 15% water - but without using lots of extra energy to boil 
it. Perhaps it is time to look at schemes to enrich the *mixed 
biofuel content* of a "mash" to a level which is burnable in an 
unmodified ICE [using a compact "turnkey" machine] and which does 
not require distillation. There are a number of advanced proposals 
out there, but the most exciting is one which can enrich in both 
biodiesel esters and ethanol at the same time. Biodiesel and 
ethanol are far from mutually exclusive and can even be "brewed" 
in the same mash synergistically and then enriched together and 
burned in an unmodified diesel engine (in theory).

The tornado-like "vortex" itself, which gives this forum a certain 
unique "personality" (screwy <g>?) is one basic centrifugation 
method, and possessing a possible advantage over 2-D spin-only. 
That advantage being a spin-elutriation method using a indigenous 
binder.

"Elutriation" is the separation of (finer or lighter) particles or 
colloids from coarser or heavier particles, or from a liquid, 
often by means of an upward and outward stream of fluid so that 
the lighter particles are carried upward and then "slagged". It 
can be combined with centrifugation, especially when a colloidal 
"binder" is used. The binder, if it is colloidal, can remain in 
the mixed fuel and be burned. A binder is a reagent which will 
favor attachment to one molecule over another by as much as 
million-fold, and many of them are hydrophobic - and thus can 
dramatically aid the de-watering effort - in a hybrid process. 
That binder can, in theory be made in situ from the very yeast 
which accomplishes the fermentation, by ultrasonic or other 
pulverization methods.

The first large-scale use of spin-centrifugation was non-military, 
and a bit less mundane than uranium enrichment. Historically, the 
first centrifuge seems to have been built late in the last century 
by de Laval, a Swedish engineer whose design is still used chiefly 
for cream-separation from whole milk (cream being lighter). The 
"gold-panning" technique is part of an older spin-elutriation 
lineage, along with "winnowing" but wasn't industrialized until 
later. That one also has elements of elutriation - as does 
milk-cream and the mixed biofuel scheme envisioned here.

For getting the active heavy metal isotopes for the bomb which 
ended WWII, it was necessary to enrich uranium in its 
fissile-isotope, which is found in nature in only seven parts per 
thousand. The bulk of that separation was done in a gas centrifuge 
process in which a U-fluoride gas is rotated at high speed in a 
porous tube, so that the slightly more massive molecules - 
uranium-238 concentrate near the outer edge and are expelled 
preferentially while the lighter molecules of U235 are 
concentrated near the axis - but slowly, very slowly.

Several hundred stages of centrifugation are needed to effect the 
required degree of enrichment, since we are dealing with a 
mass/density (specific gravity) difference of only three parts per 
292 (counting the fluorine) - or about 1 percent. The number of 
stages in any enrichment cascade is directly related to the 
mass/density variability and other factors. Cream is actually not 
very different in density from whole milk, but is not completely 
miscible and will separate on its own - so it is easier - and that 
is a direct analogy with the hybrid biofuel process envisioned - 
since the fat (or binder) is hydrophobic.

Centrifugation is based somewhat on Stoke's Law in which the 
particle "sedimentation velocity" increases with increasing 
diameter of the chamber, increasing difference in density between 
the two phases and decreasing viscosity of the continuous phase. 
There is zero "sedimentation" however, in a two part miscible 
liquid like water and alcohol, but that can be changed with a 
binder which "prefers" alcohol - and is also combustible in 
itself. BTW - cream is about 25 parts per thousand lighter than 
milk - which tiny difference is comparable to the range which is 
often exploited in isotope separation and about what would be 
involved in enriching a mixed biofuel - if other techniques are 
employed to encourage sedimentation.

Anyway, most of this is well-known and hundreds of US chemists are 
plodding away on various parts of the problem... but if anything 
can be added by the comments of an outside observer - it would be 
that few efforts seem to be aimed directly on the easiest "quick 
and dirty" approach (in this case "quick and green"). American 
chemists, like their German mentors of the previous century - have 
an ingrained fear and dread of anything which is not extremely 
precise. They are not adept at finding a lowest common denominator 
or even the cheapest approach.

If the product is going to be burned, however, there is little 
real need for precision, and it can be counter-productive for 
cost. Consequently, this type of hybrid mixed-biofuel process, 
involving both cheap ethanol and mixed esters - for use on the 
small farm is (most-likely) something which we will see coming out 
of India or Asia, maybe Eastern Europe.

Hopefully -- it will be sooner rather than later.

Jones 

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:10:24 -0700
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A repost - still trying to avoid the "blank" subject header....

For ages, it has been possible to easily separate and enrich
miscible liquids into "rough" components - or even to enrich
atomic elements isotopically using only spin - simple centrifugal
methods. But until recently the basic spin-process was seldom
considered as a substitute for the more energy-intensive
enrichment processes like distillation. That can change with three
types of spin-hybrids.
1) spin plus filtration (or osmosis)
2) spin plus magnetization (or e-field polarization)
3) spin plus a "binder"
In general, the energy required to spin-separate a liquid into
components (like whole milk) ranges from less than one percent to
ten percent of what would be required to distill. Even so-called
ultra-centrifugation is usually only a fraction.

Some recent success in finding a combinatory enrichment
technique - which is efficient in the enrichment of peroxide from
dilute mixtures (which will be reported on later) got me to
thinking about the possibility of using something similar to this
for biofuels - even though the density gradient is much less
accommodating. The multiple goals of this would be to avoid
distillation, expedite continuous (non-batch) fermentation, and
thereby to enrich directly from a fermenting mash in one step -
returning the dilatants immediately to a continuous - not a
batch - process.

The first use would be "on the farm." A farmer with as little as
20 acres should be able to devote a tenth of that to making and
refining all of the tractor fuel, home heating fuel and
transportation fuel needed, by growing and cutting grass or cane.
There have been objections voiced that this would somehow "deplete
the soil" but there are parts of the world where farm-land has
been intensively farmed by humans for 6000 years and is still
productive. Even fully depleted-soil (watered sand) will grow
grass or cane. It is a hollow argument.

Given that single-celled yeasts and engineered bacteria are now
available to ferment cellulose biowaste (hay) quickly; then all
that is needed for energy self-sufficiency is to convert the same
into diesel-like methyl and ethyl esters, with mixed alcohols and
up to 15% water - but without using lots of extra energy to boil
it. Perhaps it is time to look at schemes to enrich the *mixed
biofuel content* of a "mash" to a level which is burnable in an
unmodified ICE [using a compact "turnkey" machine] and which does
not require distillation. There are a number of advanced proposals
out there, but the most exciting is one which can enrich in both
biodiesel esters and ethanol at the same time. Biodiesel and
ethanol are far from mutually exclusive and can even be "brewed"
in the same mash synergistically and then enriched together and
burned in an unmodified diesel engine (in theory).

The tornado-like "vortex" itself, which gives this forum a certain
unique "personality" (screwy <g>?) is one basic centrifugation
method, and possessing a possible advantage over 2-D spin-only.
That advantage being a spin-elutriation method using a indigenous
binder.

"Elutriation" is the separation of (finer or lighter) particles or
colloids from coarser or heavier particles, or from a liquid,
often by means of an upward and outward stream of fluid so that
the lighter particles are carried upward and then "slagged". It
can be combined with centrifugation, especially when a colloidal
"binder" is used. The binder, if it is colloidal, can remain in
the mixed fuel and be burned. A binder is a reagent which will
favor attachment to one molecule over another by as much as
million-fold, and many of them are hydrophobic - and thus can
dramatically aid the de-watering effort - in a hybrid process.
That binder can, in theory be made in situ from the very yeast
which accomplishes the fermentation, by ultrasonic or other
pulverization methods.

The first large-scale use of spin-centrifugation was non-military,
and a bit less mundane than uranium enrichment. Historically, the
first centrifuge seems to have been built late in the last century
by de Laval, a Swedish engineer whose design is still used chiefly
for cream-separation from whole milk (cream being lighter). The
"gold-panning" technique is part of an older spin-elutriation
lineage, along with "winnowing" but wasn't industrialized until
later. That one also has elements of elutriation - as does
milk-cream and the mixed biofuel scheme envisioned here.

For getting the active heavy metal isotopes for the bomb which
ended WWII, it was necessary to enrich uranium in its
fissile-isotope, which is found in nature in only seven parts per
thousand. The bulk of that separation was done in a gas centrifuge
process in which a U-fluoride gas is rotated at high speed in a
porous tube, so that the slightly more massive molecules -
uranium-238 concentrate near the outer edge and are expelled
preferentially while the lighter molecules of U235 are
concentrated near the axis - but slowly, very slowly.

Several hundred stages of centrifugation are needed to effect the
required degree of enrichment, since we are dealing with a
mass/density (specific gravity) difference of only three parts per
292 (counting the fluorine) - or about 1 percent. The number of
stages in any enrichment cascade is directly related to the
mass/density variability and other factors. Cream is actually not
very different in density from whole milk, but is not completely
miscible and will separate on its own - so it is easier - and that
is a direct analogy with the hybrid biofuel process envisioned -
since the fat (or binder) is hydrophobic.

Centrifugation is based somewhat on Stoke's Law in which the
particle "sedimentation velocity" increases with increasing
diameter of the chamber, increasing difference in density between
the two phases and decreasing viscosity of the continuous phase.
There is zero "sedimentation" however, in a two part miscible
liquid like water and alcohol, but that can be changed with a
binder which "prefers" alcohol - and is also combustible in
itself. BTW - cream is about 25 parts per thousand lighter than
milk - which tiny difference is comparable to the range which is
often exploited in isotope separation and about what would be
involved in enriching a mixed biofuel - if other techniques are
employed to encourage sedimentation.

Anyway, most of this is well-known and hundreds of US chemists are
plodding away on various parts of the problem... but if anything
can be added by the comments of an outside observer - it would be
that few efforts seem to be aimed directly on the easiest "quick
and dirty" approach (in this case "quick and green"). American
chemists, like their German mentors of the previous century - have
an ingrained fear and dread of anything which is not extremely
precise. They are not adept at finding a lowest common denominator
or even the cheapest approach.

If the product is going to be burned, however, there is little
real need for precision, and it can be counter-productive for
cost. Consequently, this type of hybrid mixed-biofuel process,
involving both cheap ethanol and mixed esters - for use on the
small farm is (most-likely) something which we will see coming out
of India or Asia, maybe Eastern Europe.

Hopefully -- it will be sooner rather than later.

Jones

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:48:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
> > In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006
> > 08:11:08 -0700
> > (PDT):
> > Hi Paul,
> > [snip]
> > >contact with his daughter.  BTW, do you have a
> > contact
> > >for five nines grade iron?
> > [snip]
> > Isn't pure iron just going to convert all those
> > lovely microwaves
> > into pure heat?
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> 
> Hi Robin,
> 
> Under normal usage the magnetic material absorbs
> most
> of the radiation. The radiation is typically in the
> hundreds of MHz (not GHz) for non-electrical
> materials
> and considerably lower in frequency for electrically
> conductive materials such as iron. In electrically
> conductive materials the free electrons act as
> inductance, which slows down the electrons flip
> rate.
> So in iron, depending on purity, the peak radiation
> frequency ranges from KHz to MHz, not hundreds of
> MHz
> let alone GHz. Even if it were microwaves (GHz),
> which
> for the most part the radiation is not, the metal
> would act as a high refractive index. In other
> words,
> the metal would slow down the radiation velocity.
> Furthermore, most of the radiation would internally
> reflect off the cores outer walls. Note that in
> microwave ovens the metal reflects the radiation--
> only a small amount is absorbed. This process of
> slowing down the radiation and reflecting is
> understood when studying electrodynamics in detail.
> Also you can see this effect in electrodynamic
> computer simulations. The end result would be most
> of
> the radiation reflecting internally, which would
> cause
> heat. Here's a list of methods to decrease the
> magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation
> in
> addition to increasing the potential radiation.
> 
> 1.  Use materials with smallest domains at operating
> temperatures-- amorphous and nanocrystalline cores.
> The smaller the domain the more potential energy.
> When
> times permit I would like to precisely demonstrate
> this in a step-by-step process using conventional
> physics.
> 2. The thinner the core the better! Your goal is to
> prevent the core from absorbing the MCE radiation.
> Presently I am pondering upon a design that uses
> long
> thin magnetic electrically conductive wires. The
> thin
> wire would be the core and coil.
> 3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated core
> prevents the intrinsic electron spins from absorbing
> the magnetocaloric energy. Of course a fully
> saturated
> core is useless, but no realistic coil can fully
> saturate magnetic material. The core should be close
> to saturation.
> 4. Unless you use filters you'll need to flip the
> process so you can collect the energy during the
> cores
> radiating cycle. You do this with a permanent
> magnet.
> Also the PM helps saturate the core, but you don't
> want to fully saturate it.
> 5. The field from your coil will oppose the PM's
> field. So you slowly increase your coil current to
> decrease the cores net applied field and then you
> want
> to drop the current or reverse the current as
> quickly
> as possible (high di/dt). High di/dt causes a higher
> percentage of the electron spins to flip
> simultaneously, which in turn greatly reduces the
> cores ability to absorb MCE energy, which allows
> more
> of the energy to escape the core. In short, ultra
> high
> di/dt lowers the effective permeability, which in
> turn
> prevents the core from absorbing a great deal of the
> MCE energy, which your circuit can then properly
> absorb. If the core material has low electrical
> resistivity then the Eddy currents will absorb the
> radiating energy and then with precise timing you
> can
> rob a certain percentage of the Eddy currents
> energy.
>

Robin, 

I should add there are two methods of extracting MCE
energy. If the material is electrically conductive as
iron then it is probably best to allow the free
electrons to absorb MCE energy in the form of eddy
currents. At the precise moment the coil would extract
as much eddy current energy as possible.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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On 10/12/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> A repost - still trying to avoid the "blank" subject header....

Thought I'd give it a shot.

BTW,  I thought U enrichment required thousands (3k?) of centrifuge
cycles not hundreds.

Terry

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From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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On 10/12/06, Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:

> I should add there are two methods of extracting MCE
> energy. If the material is electrically conductive as
> iron then it is probably best to allow the free
> electrons to absorb MCE energy in the form of eddy
> currents. At the precise moment the coil would extract
> as much eddy current energy as possible.

One great thing about gmail is that they look at your text and offer
ads, news, and other info on the keywords.  This appeared with this
thread:

http://www.tscinternational.com/

Might try getting a sample from them.

Terry

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Subject: [Vo]: Kitegen
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Windmills, laddermills and now for something entirely different:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71908-0.html?tw=wn_index_3

Generating Power From Kites

By Nicole Martinelli| Also by this reporter
02:00 AM Oct, 10, 2006

Researchers in Italy have high hopes for a new wind-power generator
that resembles a backyard drying rack on steroids. Despite its
appearance, the Kite Wind Generator, or KiteGen for short, could
produce as much energy as a nuclear power plant.

Here's how it works: When wind hits the KiteGen, kites spring from
funnels at the ends of poles. For each kite, winches release a pair of
high-resistance cables to control direction and angle. The kites are
not your Saturday-afternoon park variety but similar to those used for
kite surfing -- light and ultra-resistant, capable of reaching an
altitude of 2,000 meters.

<more>

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton"

>> A repost - still trying to avoid the "blank" subject header....

> Thought I'd give it a shot.

Nice. Maybe I should send you all my posts first  ;-)


> BTW,  I thought U enrichment required thousands (3k?) of 
> centrifuge
> cycles not hundreds.

yes ... thousands to get to bomb-grade, fewer for reactor-grade.

There is a formula from which one can derive the necessary number 
of stages, but I have misplaced it. The 
interesting/unaccounted-for thing is that when any stage can 
exploit two physical properties instead of just specific gravity - 
say: specific gravity and positive charge affinity, or magnetic 
moment, for instance then it seems possible to get to higher 
enrichment in fewer stages then expected from the properties being 
additive. But I do not have an authoritative reference for that 
contention. Obviously, if it turned out the NMR was one of those 
"enhancements" then ... well let's don't go there. 

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Subject: [Vo]: And the Winding Downside
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http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69177-0.html

Unexpected Downside of Wind Power

By Will Wade and Will Wade | Also by this reporter
02:00 AM Oct, 14, 2005

Thousands of aging turbines stud the brown rolling hills of the
Altamont Pass on I-580 east of San Francisco Bay, a testament to one
of the nation's oldest and best-known experiments in green energy.

Next month, hundreds of those blades will spin to a stop, in what
appears to be a wind-energy first: Facing legal threats from
environmentalists, the operators of the Altamont wind farm have agreed
to shut down half of their windmills for two months starting Nov. 1;
in January, they will be restarted and the other half will be shut
down for two months.

<more>

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 20:50:07 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Spin Cycle
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On 10/12/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:

> Nice. Maybe I should send you all my posts first  ;-)

Yeah, and put *me* on the Carnivore list?!?  Ackshully, if anyone is
on it. . . :-)

> yes ... thousands to get to bomb-grade, fewer for reactor-grade.

Ah, you were speaking of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven-Per-Cent_Solution

or thereabouts.

Terry

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 01:35:33 -0500
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Subject: [Vo]: Pure Iron
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My friend Bill was a technican at what was Sperry Rand's research 
facility in Egan MN. I remember his talking about information storage on 
crystals thirty years ago. I thought about him because of the pure iron 
question. Bill says that people who do vacuum deposition use pure iron. 
He also mentioned that if you get a form that is a fine powder you will 
have to handle it in the absence of oxygen because it oxidizes fast.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: Re: And the Winding Downside
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Terry Blanton wrote about the Altamont wind pass getting partially shut 
down. This is because of the numbers of migrating birds and raptors (hawks 
and eagles) that get killed. Anti wind farm types often quote the numbers of 
birds that get killed by wind farms as a reason to object to new projects 
"on environmental grounds". Actually farms like the AP are responsible for 
almost ALL of the bird deaths. The Altamont pass was probably the biggest of 
the early wind farms and it was sited purely to intersect the strongest 
winds in the area without regard to the other environmental aspects that all 
modern wind farms consider today, such as scenic impact, bird habitat, noise 
etc. The blades are a problem for birds because early wind farms used low 
towers with small blades rotating very fast. Nowadays, the designs tend to 
be very tall with massive, slowly rotating blades.
        BTW, I think the Kitegen concept is fantastic. Anyone who's ever 
controlled a power kite for kite surfing or blokarting etc knows the amazing 
controllability and power available from the 2/4 line airfoil kite... 

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From: "Remi Cornwall" <remicornwall yahoo.co.uk>
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Subject: [Vo]: OT: Dancing in the gym
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkHqBqyHDok

 

 

 

 


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OrionWorks wrote:
>> From Steve Lawrence
> 
>>> From Steven Vincent Johnson
>>> From what I gather China is terrified of the disquieting possibility of
>>> furthering the collapse of the regime.
> 
>> China also is a rather extreme proponent of non-interference in the
>> domestic affairs of other countries.  That's been proposed as part
>> of the reason that China (and Russia) seem to oppose all action to
>> stop Iran from building their own nukes.
> 
> Non-interference? I beg to differ. You might want to take that up with a few
> Tibetans.

Tibet is part of China, of course, and what China does with Tibet is all 
"internal affairs" of China.  :-/

> I don't believe the Taiwanese are any happier about China's
> "meddling" either.

Taiwan is absolutely considered part of China by the mainland Chinese 
government, and United States arms going to Taiwan is the "meddling" 
which is taking place.


> 
> BTW, our family lived in Taiwan for three years back in the early 60's, when
> ousted leader Chiang Kai-shek, leader of the Nationalist party who
> unceremoniously skedaddled over to Taiwan, (and who also in the process
> removed the indigenous government), still had illusions of grandeur of
> reclaiming the motherland. I'm sure the feeling was mutual on the other
> side.
> 
>>  (The fact that Iran is in Russia's back yard has had me scratching my
> head
>> over that one -- if I lived in Russia I sure wouldn't want Iran to have
> nuclear
>> arms, yet Putin doesn't give any indication of caring about the issue.)
> 
> Yes, on the surface it doesn't seem very logical, does it.
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Mark Goldes said that ETI would be testing one or more of his OU devices before the end of September. Any word on how it is going or how it went?

 		
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Mark Goldes said that ETI would be testing one or more of his OU devices before the end of September. Any word on how it is going or how it went?<br><p>&#32;
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 07:03:53 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: Re: And the Winding Downside
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Palmer"

> BTW, I think the Kitegen concept is fantastic. Anyone who's ever 
> controlled a power kite for kite surfing or blokarting etc knows 
> the amazing controllability and power available from the 2/4 
> line airfoil kite...


It sounds pretty good on paper, but the recent crash of a private 
airplane in NYC highlights the reason that such a concept - at 
least the onshore version if situated in the USA - is dead in the 
water.

Large kites and even occassional air traffic are totally 
incompatible. All the more reason to look to offshore.

Offshore is were that "long and winding road" ends ;-)

The recent Stanford study of good wind farm sites indicates that 
offshore sites are highly preferable for both steady winds and to 
avoid problems with the "neighbors," whether they be avian or 
bird-brained humans <g>

If I had any control over R&D funding, the first prioity for 
wind-energy would be robust design for a standardized (mass 
produced) offshore vessle - probably a catamarran and probably 
with a ladder mill or ferris-type wing mill which is producing a 
strorable liquid - as the energy transfer medium.

That stroable energy-transfer liquid could be:

1) liquid air
2) liquid air enriched in O2 (or LOX)
3) ammonia

or the currently favored (long-winded) concept -

4) midgrade HOOH (50% enrichment)


The feasibility of any of these is of course ultimately based on 
cost and safety issues. It is impossible to judge which is 
preferable without an extensive R&D program, which is why - as a 
national priority - we should be engaged in this now. For  HOOH to 
be economicly feasible, that would probably depend on using sea 
water - which might be feasible.

Jones

"Let it be wind ?" (with apologies to Paul)

The long and winding road
That leads us to be free
Will never disappear
Ive seen that road before
It always leads me here
Leads me to the sea

The wild and windy night
That the rain cannot wash away
Has left a pool of tears
Crying for lost opportunities
Why leave us standing here ?
Let us know the way 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 07:58:39 2006
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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: And the Winding Downside
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:58:04 -0500
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From: Nick Palmer

...

>         BTW, I think the Kitegen concept is fantastic. Anyone who's ever
> controlled a power kite for kite surfing or blokarting etc knows
> the amazing controllability and power available from the 2/4 line airfoil
> kite...
>

I read the Wired article. Kewel!

It does strongly suggest to me that the biggest obstacle is not going to be
how technically feasible the concept is to build and operate. It's how to
overcome the equally difficult hurdle of how crazy it appears to most
individuals. "It just ain't natural!"

I hope we can get over our foibles on that one!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/OrionWorks

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Subject: [Vo]: Re: And the Winding Downside
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Winding-down ADDENDA

That "strorable energy-transfer liquid" which is the envisioned 
manufactured output of an off-shore wind-farm could be:

 1) liquid air
2) liquid air enriched in O2 (or LOX)
3) ammonia
 4) midgrade HOOH (50% enrichment)

...and there are other possibilities and byproducts...

If one is going to electrolyze seawater to get the hydrogen for 
ammonia, then you also can get sodium hydroxide, which is a 
valuable chemical, and a seldom mentioned - very nasty - 
by-product - trichloramine (or nitrogen trichloride).

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/compounds/text/N/Cl3N1-10025851.html

Nitrogen trichloride is a strong explosive. An explosion involving 
NCl3 blinded Sir Humphry Davy (temporarily), but as a result - 
forced him to take on Michael Faraday as assistant, so 'humanity' 
benefited greatly from that accident, at Davy's expense. Not that 
Faraday would not have shown his genius elsewhere, but for the 
good/bad fortune of the world's first trichloramine disaster.

Such is the pursuit of science. Not to mention, this happenstance 
was in part due to other lab workers (senior to Faraday) having 
been recently fired. James Burke didn't cover this one yet AFAIK 
and he (or the Beeb) could add into that forthcoming episode, one 
William Perkin - that is, into the improbable "Connections" mix:
http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/2/3/186.pdf

Nitrogen trichloride (Agene) will explode upon exposure to cold or 
hot temperatures, sunlight, or organic substances, is linked to 
asthma and also causes brain damage. However ... cough ... it is 
possible (in theory) that it could be made and used immediatly 
thereafter for power onboard an offshore (roboticly controlled 
<g>) vessle, if a ceramic engine or turbine is ever developed 
which can tolerate the corrosion.

Jones

> "Let it be wind ?" (with apologies to Paul)
>
> The long and winding road
> That leads us to be free
> Will never disappear
> Ive seen that road before
> It always leads me here
> Leads me to the sea
>
> The wild and windy night
> That the rain cannot wash away
> Has left a pool of tears
> Crying for lost opportunities
> Why leave us standing here ?
> Let us know the way 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:03:31 2006
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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:47:01 -0500
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Hi Stephen,

> > Non-interference? I beg to differ. You might want to take that
> up with a few
> > Tibetans.
>
> Tibet is part of China, of course, and what China does with Tibet is all
> "internal affairs" of China.  :-/

Again, you might want to take that up with a few Tibetians. :-\

>
> > I don't believe the Taiwanese are any happier about China's
> > "meddling" either.
>
> Taiwan is absolutely considered part of China by the mainland Chinese
> government, and United States arms going to Taiwan is the "meddling"
> which is taking place.
>

And again, you might want to take that up with a few Taiwanese. HINT: Your
opinion would NOT be considered a popular one. ;-)

To clarify my previous somewhat muddled statement, the Nationalist Party
headed by Chiang Kai-shek essentially took over the Taiwanese government
when they fled the mainland back in the 40s. The takeover of the Taiwanese
government by the ousted Nationalist party, by some accounts, was just as
brutal as the draconian consolidation that was simultaneously going on in
the mainland headed by Mao. The United States ended up supporting the
Nationalist party on Taiwan because it served our own political and
strategic interests to do so. We were most certainly "meddling" in Taiwan's
internal affairs in that sense. But such are the stuff of political dramas
and strange bed fellows. I would say that everyone who felt they had an
invested interest in Taiwan was caught "meddling" in the island's internal
affairs. We are not the only guilty party. Not by a long shot.

I would recommend you talk to a real indigenous Taiwanese who was born and
raised in Taiwan. It should not be misconstrued that the indigenous
Tiawanese population consider themselves a part of the Mainland. I suspect
the brutal takeover by the Nationalist party only confirmed their opinion of
"Great Dragon's" incessant meddling.

FWIW: My family lived in Taiwan back in the early 60 for approximately three
years. My father was a production manager for Foremost Dairies, a San
Francisco based company that supplied dairy products across the globe.
Foremost had many plants across the Pacific as well. We supplied dairy
products to Americans and their families living in Taiwan. This included a
very large contingency of U.S. military based on the island, and a few CIA
operatives and their families working there as well.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:28:53 2006
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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I spoke with Mizuno again last night. He reports that he is still not 
seen a trace of evidence from an underground nuclear test. He himself 
is in charge of the equipment. In fact he seems to be the only one 
who knows how to use it. It is top notch stuff from the cold war era.

He and I disagree with Dr. Richards, who was quoted in the New York 
Times, regarding the difficulty of bringing in enough conventional 
explosives for fake test. A truckload per day for a year would do it.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 09:45:07 2006
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:17:01 -0700
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Rhong,

As most on vortex are well aware, R&D cannot be accomplished on a schedule.

We are close to being ready, however EarthTech has relocated and their team 
must travel to our labs. That may push the tests into next month.

The continuing shortage of working capital has also slowed our progress.

Mark

>From: Rhong Dhong <rongdong99 yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: [Vo]: Any Word on MPI?
>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mark Goldes said that ETI would be testing one or more of his OU devices 
>before the end of September. Any word on how it is going or how it went?
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ 
>countries) for 2¢/min or less.


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Subject: [Vo]: N. Korea and the PFB
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A pure fusion weapon (PFB) is a (hypothetical) concept that does 
not need a fissile trigger to ignite fusion. Of all the gruesome 
scenarios in the current International situation, it is the 
scariest. And possibly the truth is somewhere "in between"  the 
PFB and  the Mark ll "Port Chicago" design, which does not require 
a high enrichment trigger).

Despite billons of dollars spent during the ColdWar to develop a 
pure fusion weapon, no measurable success was ever reported by the 
Pentagon. At least that is the official story. In 1998, the DoE 
(notice this is NOT the DoD) released a partly declassified doc 
stating that even if they had made a substantial investment in the 
past to develop a PFB (an admission that they had tried) "the U.S. 
does not have and is not developing a pure fusion weapon and no 
credible design for a pure fusion weapon resulted from the DoE 
investment".  This is true, but limited to DoE investment in the 
USA.

The power density needed to ignite a fusion reaction (on DT in a 
non-plasma) are attainable only with the aid of a fission 
explosion, OR with an apparatus which first creates a warm 
plasma - but not with conventional explosives alone. However, a 
large expendable apparatus such as a Z-pinch, or solenoid, or 
array of exploding wires could be conceivably combined with 
secondary explosives to implode the pre-plasma, creating a small 
neutron-rich explosion and create the illusion of a PFB - by Korea 
for its own political ends... i.e. blackmail. A pure fusion, or 
this kind of 'bastard' weapon, would only subvert the "intent" of 
the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty but probably not the treaty 
itself - so we are in a double-weak bargaining position.

It has been claimed by some experts that it is possible for N. 
Korea to have built this kind of crude, hybrid weapon, using only 
unclassified 20 year-old technology. The weapon design which is 
described below (Jones and von Hippel, Science and Global 
security, 1998) and might have a total yield below what Korea or 
observers have claimed. From the point of view of explosive 
damage, such a weapon would have no clear advantages over lots of 
conventional explosives, EXCEPT for the massive neutron flux, 
which could deliver a lethal dose of radiation to humans - plus by 
using a boron-based tamper (or fuel grade U on the high end) the 
damage could be raised to a much higher level - tens of kiloton 
range but still not be a usable offensive weapon due to bulk and 
complexity.

http://www.princeton.edu/~globsec/publications/pdf/7_2Jones.pdf

That is - no clear advantages unless **blackmail** is now to be 
considered to be an offensive weapon...

...as it certainly could be in the sense of a N. Korean "War on 
Domestic Poverty"...

Jones 

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Subject: [Vo]: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
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THE QUANTUM RING THEORY

Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
http://www.bauuinstitute.com/Publishing/QuantumBook.html

In Quantum Ring Theory Wladimir Guglinski presents a radical new
theory concerning the fundamental nature of physics. Hailed as a
intriguing theorist by Dr. Eugene Mallove, president of the New
Energy Foundation, Guglinski argues that the current understanding
of physics does not put forth an accurate understanding of the
world. Instead, Guglinski argues that we must once again consider
the "aether," a notion originally put forth by Greek philosophers.
By considering the nature of "aether" and its role in physical
processes, Guglinski is able to put forth a theory that reconciles
Quantum Physics with the Theory of Relativity. To date, no other
physical theory is able to accord for the fundamental intraction
between these two fundamental notions of physics. As part of
Guglinski's new theory, the author presents a new model of the
neutron. Guglinski's model of the neutron has been confirmed by
contemporary physical experiments: The first one was made by Don
Borghi and published in 1993 by the American Institute of Physics;
the second experiment was made by Elio Conte and Maria Pieralice,
subsequently published in the magazine Infinite Energy in 1999.
Currently, other experiments around the world are being conducted to
test the remainder of Guglinski's theoretical work.

Quantum Ring Theory presents for the first time in a complete text
the theoretical work of Wladimir Guglinski. In this volume cutting
edge theoretical work in physics is presented; theoretical work
which may ultimately change the very way we understand the world.

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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
> 
>>> Non-interference? I beg to differ. You might want to take that
>> up with a few
>>> Tibetans.
>> Tibet is part of China, of course, and what China does with Tibet is all
>> "internal affairs" of China.  :-/
> 
> Again, you might want to take that up with a few Tibetians. :-\

I'm well aware of your point!  What's more, I'm not disagreeing.  IMHO 
the railroad China's running into Tibet is another aspect to their 
invasion of that country, _not_ an example of how they are better 
uniting the kingdom of Cathay.  Perhaps I should have put quotes around 
"part of China"...?

I was just trying to say that the Chinese government is very fond of 
invoking the doctrine of "no interference in internal affairs" in a wide 
range of cases, including those where any reasonably disinterested party 
would say the affair in question is most certainly EXternal.


>>> I don't believe the Taiwanese are any happier about China's
>>> "meddling" either.
>> Taiwan is absolutely considered part of China by the mainland Chinese
>> government, and United States arms going to Taiwan is the "meddling"
>> which is taking place.
>>
> 
> And again, you might want to take that up with a few Taiwanese. HINT: Your
> opinion would NOT be considered a popular one. ;-)

Right, for sure.  Claims that there's "just one China" are nonsense IMHO 
(a claim which both Nationalist China and People's Republic of China 
governments have made at various times).

But again, the doctrine of non-interference in internal affairs 
certainly has been invoked by the mainland Chinese government as 
justification for shouting at the United States for aiding Taiwan.

So, maybe, like the British in previous generations, they've also been 
guilty of believing some of their own propaganda.  Anyhow that was the 
original point, such as it was.


> 
> To clarify my previous somewhat muddled statement, the Nationalist Party
> headed by Chiang Kai-shek essentially took over the Taiwanese government
> when they fled the mainland back in the 40s. The takeover of the Taiwanese
> government by the ousted Nationalist party, by some accounts, was just as
> brutal as the draconian consolidation that was simultaneously going on in
> the mainland headed by Mao.

But claims that it was a dictatorship were nonsense, of course.  ;-)

It was a properly constituted democracy.  The only hitch was that 
elections on the island of Taiwan were, of course, impossible to hold 
until the parliamentarians could campaign properly and stand for 
election in their  home districts, which were, of course, mostly on the 
mainland.  So elections simply had to be suspended for the duration of 
the emergency, until such time as the government could return to its 
seat on the mainland and they could once again be held sensibly. But the 
suspension of elections was purely temporary, of course.

I have heard it said that Chiang Kai-shek actually used that argument to 
justify remaining in power for 40 years without an election (or however 
long it was).  I don't know if he really did; haven't checked it.


> The United States ended up supporting the
> Nationalist party on Taiwan because it served our own political and
> strategic interests to do so. We were most certainly "meddling" in Taiwan's
> internal affairs in that sense. But such are the stuff of political dramas
> and strange bed fellows. I would say that everyone who felt they had an
> invested interest in Taiwan was caught "meddling" in the island's internal
> affairs. We are not the only guilty party. Not by a long shot.

Historically the United States looks pretty heroic in its behavior 
toward China, if you contrast it with the European nations, IMHO, and 
about this I'm quite serious.  Perhaps Roosevelt got us into the war 
just to save us from Japan -- but I'd like to think he did it at least 
in part to save China, as well, about which nobody else seemed to much 
care at the time.  (Of course I'm thinking of the pressure he put on 
Japan in advance of Pearl Harbor which most likely precipitated the 
conflict.)

Of course the European treatment of China was sufficiently awful that 
almost anything would look good by contrast -- treaty ports, opium wars, 
oh my....


> I would recommend you talk to a real indigenous Taiwanese who was born and
> raised in Taiwan.

Why?  I've already spent some time speaking with a mainlander, and I 
doubt anyone from Taiwan could have a more negative view of the mainland 
Chinese government than she had.  I remember I started to say something 
fatuous about how communist leaders are idealists (using a narrow 
definition of "idealist") and I never got to the end of the sentence; 
got interrupted with a tirade against the evil old men who were just 
holding onto power against all comers, who had no ideals, sense of duty, 
morals, or notions of right or wrong whatsoever.  This was a few years 
ago before they started loosening up a bit over there but it's probably 
still a pretty accurate portrayal of what goes on at the top in China.


> It should not be misconstrued that the indigenous
> Tiawanese population consider themselves a part of the Mainland.

No, of course not -- it's the /government/ to which I intended to refer 
in all cases, which is not synonymous with the common folk, in any 
country I'm aware of.


> I suspect
> the brutal takeover by the Nationalist party only confirmed their opinion of
> "Great Dragon's" incessant meddling.

Yup, and I doubt the Ainu think too highly of the Japanese government, 
either, for that matter...


> FWIW: My family lived in Taiwan back in the early 60 for approximately three
> years. My father was a production manager for Foremost Dairies, a San
> Francisco based company that supplied dairy products across the globe.
> Foremost had many plants across the Pacific as well. We supplied dairy
> products to Americans and their families living in Taiwan. This included a
> very large contingency of U.S. military based on the island, and a few CIA
> operatives and their families working there as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
> 
> 

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From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
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--- Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> 
> THE QUANTUM RING THEORY
> 
> Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
>
http://www.bauuinstitute.com/Publishing/QuantumBook.html
> 
> In Quantum Ring Theory Wladimir Guglinski presents a
> radical new
> theory concerning the fundamental nature of physics.
> Hailed as a
> intriguing theorist by Dr. Eugene Mallove, president
> of the New
> Energy Foundation, Guglinski argues that the current
> understanding
> of physics does not put forth an accurate
> understanding of the
> world. Instead, Guglinski argues that we must once
> again consider
> the "aether," a notion originally put forth by Greek
> philosophers.
> By considering the nature of "aether" and its role
> in physical
> processes, Guglinski is able to put forth a theory
> that reconciles
> Quantum Physics with the Theory of Relativity. To
> date, no other
> physical theory is able to accord for the
> fundamental intraction
> between these two fundamental notions of physics. As
> part of
> Guglinski's new theory, the author presents a new
> model of the
> neutron. Guglinski's model of the neutron has been
> confirmed by
> contemporary physical experiments: The first one was
> made by Don
> Borghi and published in 1993 by the American
> Institute of Physics;
> the second experiment was made by Elio Conte and
> Maria Pieralice,
> subsequently published in the magazine Infinite
> Energy in 1999.
> Currently, other experiments around the world are
> being conducted to
> test the remainder of Guglinski's theoretical work.
> 
> Quantum Ring Theory presents for the first time in a
> complete text
> the theoretical work of Wladimir Guglinski. In this
> volume cutting
> edge theoretical work in physics is presented;
> theoretical work
> which may ultimately change the very way we
> understand the world.
> 
> 


Hi Harry,

That's very interesting.

IMHO the days of QM are coming to a close. IMHO the
future of physics will be in replacing paper written
equations with computer simulations & algorithms, and
replacing terminology such as "energy exchange" with
highly detailed step-by-step processes. IMHO that's
the future of physics.

For example a guy from NASA contacted me about my
magnetic theory regarding MCE. Although he agrees on
half my theory, the other half he cannot confirm. For
example, he refers to it as simply an "energy
exchange."  It's a nice terminology and indeed it
looks pretty to see a little wiggly photon moving from
one atom to the next, but in real life it's just not
that simple. We cannot write such a simple equation if
we want to clearly understand in detail what's
happening. Truth is no single particle can absorb 100%
of any electromagnetic wave.  The nearest atom might
absorb 12% of the energy, the next atom absorbs a far
less amount, etc.  Mathematically we cannot associate
a single frequency with a single photon. This concept
of trying to make the photon a single quantum object
and quantum wave is limiting. For example, consider
the following,

It is possible that what QM refers to uncertainty is
simply caused by minute particle-waves so-called
dancing around at rates far beyond the detection of
present instruments. Consider a hot pan slightly
tilted. Allow a drop of water to fall on the hot pan.
We see the water dancing and hopping all over the
place, but slowly the hopping water makes its way down
the slanted pan. People a few hundred years ago could
not predict exactly where the water would hop from one
location to the next. Although they could indeed
derive an equation based on probability of predicting
when the drop would reach a certain distance down the
tilted pan. Lets say the equation stated that in 3
seconds there is a 90% probability the water will
reach the 5" mark. So these people could say it's
impossible to predict the water within any accuracy
beyond the equations. Yet, given today's high speed
digital cameras and computers we can conceivably
calculate where the drop will hop from location to
location over time if we analyze the pan in extreme
detail, take live thermal shots of the pan and water,
etc. Two hundred years ago such certainty would seem
like magic.

The suggestion is QM has placed limitations. Sure, the
probabilities and uncertainty has given humanity the
ability to predict, and such predictions are better
than nothing, but the science community should not
rigidly believe in the uncertainty principle. To even
suggest such a thought in the science community is
offensive. It's my hope we can all be a little
open-minded and have some foresight. That's why I give
scientists such as Dr. Michio Kaku two thumbs up! :-)

I have a highly untested theory in its infancy called
MMT that's based on defining all things with respect
to magnetic moment. It seems hopeful and would like to
post it here one day.

IMHO it will be the computer to clearly demonstrates
the proper method of viewing the universe is by
understanding all things are connected, that the
concept of particles are different than we thought. 
MMT shows how to view the universe and that it's not
confusing to understand that the particle is both a
wave and a particle at the same time, always.  The
single electron double slit experiment and single
photon double slit experiment has and is shaking the
science community.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: And the Winding Downside
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Jones - the advantage of the Kitegen concept is that it does not need to be 
offshore to get reliable winds.The airspace issue is not a problem both in 
terms of the amount of space the ground installation and kite arrays would 
need - also consider the sheer visibility of the device (which I think would 
look rather wonderful). 

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:18:51 EDT
Subject: [Vo]: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion. Harry Veeder  
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Guglinski is able to put forth a theory that reconciles  Quantum Physics with 
the Theory of Relativity. To date, no other physical theory  is able to 
accord for the fundamental intraction between these two fundamental  notions of 
physics. 
 
bull
 
see my work..no aeather needed
 
_http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf_ 
(http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf) 
 
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1160777931
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>Guglinski is able to put forth a theory that recon=
ciles=20
Quantum Physics with the Theory of Relativity. To date, no other physical th=
eory=20
is able to accord for the fundamental intraction between these two fundament=
al=20
notions of physics. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>bull</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>see my work..no aeather needed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia><A=20
href=3D"http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf">http://www.wbabin.net/s=
cience/znidarsic.pdf</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1160777931--

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Subject: [Vo]: Nuclear Volleyball
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Brave young blokes!!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm

Inside the Ring
By Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough
October 13, 2006

Nuclear volleyball

Intelligence photographs of North Korea's nuclear test site showed
technicians playing volleyball this week near the tunnel where a
nuclear device was unsuccessfully set off on Sunday.

The facility where the test took place was identified by U.S.
officials as a North Korean science and technology research center
near the town of Kilchu and the northeastern coast.

Very high-resolution satellite images obtained by the Defense
Intelligence Agency showed the volleyball game being played near
dormitories at the facility.

The Japanese intelligence agency also had access to the photographs,
and according to U.S. defense officials, they reported that a sports
activity so close to a nuclear site was inconsistent with post-nuclear
testing precautions, since the underground tunnel where the test took
place was located several hundred yards away.

<end>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:28:44 +1000
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In reply to  Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:58:57
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>
>THE QUANTUM RING THEORY
>
>Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion.
>http://www.bauuinstitute.com/Publishing/QuantumBook.html

Has anyone read this yet, and if so, would they be willing to
write a short review?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear Volleyball
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:33:55 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:18:32
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Brave young blokes!!

..or ignorant. The NK government is not particularly known for
showing a great deal of care for it's people. OTOH they may have
already done the measurements, and found no significant leakage.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <bcb.5db37e5.326174f7 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:02:15 EDT
Subject: [Vo]: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion
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IMHO it will be the computer to clearly demonstrates
the proper method  of viewing the universe is by
understanding all things are connected, that  the
concept of particles are different than we thought. 
MMT shows how to  view the universe and that it's not
confusing to understand that the particle  is both a
wave and a particle at the same time, always.  The
single  electron double slit experiment and single
photon double slit experiment has  and is shaking the
science community.


Regards,
Paul  Lowrance
 
Anew quantum theory must provide values for The Rydberg constant,  the 
Intensity of harmonic motion,the intensity and position of the spectral  lines.  I 
have done this seven years ago, posted it on the web.   Nobody cares.
 

_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html_ 
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html) 
 
 
If no one cares about a theory that can compute these values, noone will  
care about a theory that cannot.
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1160780534
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
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Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>IMHO it will be the computer to clearly demonstrates<BR>the proper meth=
od=20
of viewing the universe is by<BR>understanding all things are connected, tha=
t=20
the<BR>concept of particles are different than we thought. <BR>MMT shows how=
 to=20
view the universe and that it's not<BR>confusing to understand that the part=
icle=20
is both a<BR>wave and a particle at the same time, always.&nbsp; The<BR>sing=
le=20
electron double slit experiment and single<BR>photon double slit experiment=20=
has=20
and is shaking the<BR>science community.<BR><BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Paul=20
Lowrance</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Anew quantum theory must provide values for The Rydberg constant,=20
the&nbsp;Intensity of harmonic motion,the intensity and position of the spec=
tral=20
lines.&nbsp; I have done this seven years ago, posted it on the web.&nbsp;=20
Nobody cares.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html">http://www.angelf=
ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If no one cares about a theory that can compute these values, noone wil=
l=20
care about a theory that cannot.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1160780534--

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Subject: [Vo]: (VO) FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 13, 2006
Status: O
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 10/13/2006 1:51:36 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 13, 2006

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 13 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. FIZZLE? SOMETHING EXPLODED, BUT NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT. 
 There was a seismic event near Kilju, North Korea.  The signature
 was characteristic of an explosion: a sharp leading edge, unlike
 the release of elastic energy in a tectonic movement.  But so far
 there is no report of airborne radioactivity, which is the most
 reliable evidence of a test and says the most about what sort of
 nuclear device it was.  North Korea says it was deep underground,
 but there is typically some venting.  If it was a nuclear bomb,
 it was very small.  Bomb freaks in the Pentagon hyperventilate at
 the thought of a mini-nuke, but a fizzle would be more likely.  

 2. WOMEN IN PHYSICS: NEW BOOK TELLS THE STORY FOR THE FIRST TIME.
 "Out of the Shadows: Contributions of Twentieth-Century Women to
 Physics," edited by Nina Byers and Gary Williams, is an important
 contribution to the history of science.  It is forty stories of
 women who made major contributions to twentieth century physics,
 written by distinguished scientists who are themselves actively
 engaged in the areas of physics about which they write. Cambridge
 University Press, produced a beautiful 500-page volume, and the
 Sloan Foundation provided a grant that reduced the list price to
 $35.  It cannot be read without a sense of regret at what the
 world lost by not having greater involvement of women in science. 
 Even today, my freshman physics class averages only 10% women.

 3. PERPETUUM MOBILE: GAS PRICES STIMULATE MORE ZERO-POINT DREAMS. 
 About five times a year somebody comes out with a new device to
 make free energy.  Most involve magnetic fields.  See for example
 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn082506.html .  The oldest
 perhaps was Perigrinus in 1269, who proposed a magnet to attract
 iron teeth arranged around a wheel.  Once you started it moving,
 inertia was supposed to carry it beyond the difficult gap to the
 next tooth.  I tire of debunking these things, but this week a
 reporter called about Magnetic Power, Inc.  He said deep-pocket
 investors, are putting money in it.  They always do.  MPI says
 its "Quantum Dynamos" tap the "Virtual Photon Flux, a limitless
 source of energy."  Inventors used to call that "perpetual
 motion," but the Patent office won't patent perpetual motion
 machines.  That was only a policy of the Patent office before
 1985.  It became case law after Joe Newman sued in federal court
 to force the Patent Office to issue a patent for his "infinite
 source of energy" (Quigg v. Newman) and lost.  

 4. DOVER EFFECT: MICHIGAN STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION BACKS DARWIN. 
 Michigan had been targeted by the Discovery Institute in an
 effort to include intelligent design along with evolution in
 public school science curricula.  However, following the Dover
 decision in federal court (Kitzmiller), the intelligent design
 move was reduced to trying to soften support for evolution. 
 Instead, the Michigan Board solidified its support for evolution.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fake nuclear test?
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Status: O
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Nice history lesson Stephen.

Enjoyed wandering down memory lane with you.

Perhaps it is a tad naive of me to say this but I would like to believe that
things are slowing improving - two steps forward, one step back. I have this
strange vision that some day in the not to distant future (lets say five
years from now) I'll be purchasing my first Backlight Power space heater
from the local Wall-Mart store. Reading the fine print tells me that the
device was:

	Made in the New People's Republic of North Korea
	A new subsidiary of the Peoples Republic of China

Labor must be cheap here.

I'm sure that will be an interesting story for the history books as well.
;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Ring Theory: Foundations for Cold Fusion
Status: O
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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----- Original Message -----=20
From: FZNIDARSIC

> A new quantum theory must provide values for The Rydberg constant, the =
Intensity of harmonic motion,the intensity and position of the spectral =
lines. I have done this seven years ago, posted it on the web.  Nobody =
cares.


Well, if it's any consolation [and it seldom is] you are in good =
company; plus many readers do care, but ... hey ... who said that life =
was fair?

For instance, Gergor Mendel's important work did not achieve recogntion =
for 30 years.
http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v4p488y1979-80.pdf

However, if you are proven correct eventually - then it will have to =
come partly at Einstein's expense, no? It is a bit ironic that =
Einstein's most-cited article of all time is not the E=3DMc^2 paper, but =
his 1935 paper with Podolsky and Rosen, which has over 2000 citations in =
peer-reviewed journals. The paper claims that QM can never offer a =
complete description of physical reality - now known as the EPR paradox. =


Maybe you can prove otherwise and out-fox... err ... out-paradox EPR, =
but for the sake of just the PR part, it might help to find out who does =
Don King's hair... <g>.=20

A bit more seriously - part of the basic problem, historically, for many =
of the cases of 'delayed recognition' which have been studied, is =
pointed out in the last paragraph on page 488 of the above cite.

Jones
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body bottomMargin=3D7 bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"" =
rightMargin=3D7>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: FZNIDARSIC<BR><BR>&gt; A new =
quantum=20
theory must provide values for The Rydberg constant, the Intensity of =
harmonic=20
motion,the intensity and position of the spectral lines.&nbsp;I have =
done this=20
seven years ago, posted it on the web.&nbsp; Nobody cares.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Well, if it's any consolation [and it seldom is] you are in good =
company;=20
plus many readers do care, but ... hey ... who said that life was =
fair?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For instance, Gergor Mendel's important work did not achieve =
recogntion for=20
30 years.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v4p488y1979-80.pdf">=
http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v4p488y1979-80.pdf</A></DIV>=
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>However, if you are proven correct eventually - then&nbsp;it will =
have to=20
come partly at Einstein's expense, no? It is a bit ironic that =
Einstein's=20
most-cited article of all time is not the E=3DMc^2 paper, but his 1935 =
paper with=20
Podolsky and Rosen, which has over 2000 citations in peer-reviewed =
journals. The=20
paper claims that QM can never&nbsp;offer a complete description of =
physical=20
reality -&nbsp;now known as the EPR paradox. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe you can prove otherwise and out-fox... err ... out-paradox =
EPR, but=20
for the sake of just the PR part,&nbsp;it might help to find out who =
does Don=20
King's hair... &lt;g&gt;. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A bit more seriously - part of the basic problem, historically, for =
many of=20
the cases of 'delayed recognition' which have been studied, is pointed =
out in=20
the last paragraph on page 488 of the above cite.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_08EE_01C6EEEC.320B4610--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 21:10:20 2006
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:00:38 -0400
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear Volleyball
In-reply-to: <f7eeb3430610131518l5019f6e7sa6f58ee3c9f07f8c mail.gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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On Friday 13 October 2006 18:18, Terry Blanton wrote:
> Brave young blokes!!
>
> http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
>
> Inside the Ring
> By Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough
> October 13, 2006
>
> Nuclear volleyball
>
> Intelligence photographs of North Korea's nuclear test site showed
> technicians playing volleyball this week near the tunnel where a
> nuclear device was unsuccessfully set off on Sunday.
>
> The facility where the test took place was identified by U.S.
> officials as a North Korean science and technology research center
> near the town of Kilchu and the northeastern coast.
>
> Very high-resolution satellite images obtained by the Defense
> Intelligence Agency showed the volleyball game being played near
> dormitories at the facility.
>
> The Japanese intelligence agency also had access to the photographs,
> and according to U.S. defense officials, they reported that a sports
> activity so close to a nuclear site was inconsistent with post-nuclear
> testing precautions, since the underground tunnel where the test took
> place was located several hundred yards away.
>
> <end>

Maybe we should not say much about the test being 'fake'.  This will only
prompt 'short stuff' to put on an even tallller wig and do a second test, 
a really dirty one that scatters ash all over Japan;  and cackle to himself
and his animated playing card 'generals' as to how Dubya would manage to
minimize that one for pollitical purposes.

Standing Bear

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Subject: [Vo]: global warming
Status: O
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Hi All,

I thought you might be interested in the below article
from Science News.  Global warming is real, but it may be
cyclical beyond our control, especially now that methane
is being released from the melting tundra -- probably a
deviation amplifying process.

Maybe we should be grateful for anything that puts greenhouse
gas into the atmosphere because we may be entering the cooling
phase of the Milankovitch cycle.

Jack Smith

------------

Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.
by Sid Perkins

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061014/note11.asp

``Ancient hot spell is linked to copious carbon dioxide

The presence of a particular mineral in ancient rock
suggests that during an extended warm period in Earth's
past, the atmosphere held at least triple the concentration
of carbon dioxide that it does today, a new analysis shows.

Between 52 million and 50 million years ago, Earth's
climate was the warmest it had been since the dinosaurs
died out 65 million years ago. The temperature of the
deepest water in the oceans, an indication of global
climate, was at least 10°C higher than it is today.

Some rocks derived from Colorado lake sediments of
that era contain large amounts of nahcolite, a natural
form of baking soda.  Lab tests indicate that nahcolite
would precipitate out of salty, alkaline lakes only if
atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide were above
1,125 parts per million (ppm), Tim K. Lowenstein and
Robert V. Demicco of the State University of New York
at Binghamton report in the Sept. 29 Science. Today,
concentrations of that greenhouse gas measure about 380
ppm, Lowenstein notes.

The climate around the ancient lake where these minerals
formed was probably similar to that at the Dead Sea today,
says Lowenstein. There, air temperatures average 24°C and
surface-water temperatures range from 21°C to 36°C. ''

References:

Lowenstein, T.K., and R.V. Demicco. 2006. Elevated eocene
atmospheric CO2 and its subsequent decline. Science
313(Sept.  29):1928.

Abstract available at
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5795/1928.

Sources:

Tim K. Lowenstein

Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental Studies

State University of New York, Binghamton

Binghamton, NY 13902

>From Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.

-----------------

Science 29 September 2006:

Vol. 313. no. 5795, p.  1928 DOI: 10.1126/science.1129555

Abstract

``Elevated Eocene Atmospheric CO2 and Its Subsequent Decline

by Tim K. Lowenstein* and Robert V. Demicco

Quantification of the atmospheric concentration of CO2
([CO2]atm) during warm periods of Earth's history is
important because burning of fossil fuels may produce
future [CO2]atm approaching 1000 parts per million by
volume (ppm).

The early Eocene (~56 to 49 million years ago) had the
highest prolonged global temperatures of the past 65
million years. High Eocene [CO2]atm is established from
sodium carbonate minerals formed in saline lakes and
preserved in the Green River Formation, western United
States.

Coprecipitation of nahcolite (NaHCO3) and halite (NaCl)
from surface waters in contact with the atmosphere
indicates [CO2]atm > 1125 ppm (four times preindustrial
concentrations), which confirms that high [CO2]atm
coincided with Eocene warmth. ''

Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental
Studies, State University of New York at Binghamton,
Binghamton, NY 13902, USA.

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail:
lowenst{at}binghamton.edu


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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 08:21:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: global warming
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--- "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 centurytel.net> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I thought you might be interested in the below
> article
> from Science News.  Global warming is real, but it
> may be
> cyclical beyond our control, especially now that
> methane
> is being released from the melting tundra --
> probably a
> deviation amplifying process.
> 
> Maybe we should be grateful for anything that puts
> greenhouse
> gas into the atmosphere because we may be entering
> the cooling
> phase of the Milankovitch cycle.
> 
> Jack Smith
[snip]


It's true global warming is of great concern. The
cooling phase is far away and IMHO will not last long.
Scientists can now with ease measure temperature
increases over cities across the globe during peak
traffic hours. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
I've always said that global warming was both natural
and man made, which is why "free energy" is vitally
important.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 20:22:29 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: global warming
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:21:55 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Taylor J. Smith's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2006
13:22:19 +0000:
Hi,
[snip]
>The early Eocene (~56 to 49 million years ago) had the
>highest prolonged global temperatures of the past 65
>million years. High Eocene [CO2]atm is established from
>sodium carbonate minerals formed in saline lakes and
>preserved in the Green River Formation, western United
>States.
[snip]
Green River is also where the huge US oil shale deposits are
found. Could there be a connection? Perhaps the high CO2
concentration was only local?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Paul <softwarelabus yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > --- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> > wrote:
> > > In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006
> > > 08:11:08 -0700
> > > (PDT):
> > > Hi Paul,
> > > [snip]
> > > >contact with his daughter.  BTW, do you have a
> > > contact
> > > >for five nines grade iron?
> > > [snip]
> > > Isn't pure iron just going to convert all those
> > > lovely microwaves
> > > into pure heat?
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Robin van Spaandonk
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Robin,
> > 
> > Under normal usage the magnetic material absorbs
> > most
> > of the radiation. The radiation is typically in
> the
> > hundreds of MHz (not GHz) for non-electrical
> > materials
> > and considerably lower in frequency for
> electrically
> > conductive materials such as iron. In electrically
> > conductive materials the free electrons act as
> > inductance, which slows down the electrons flip
> > rate.
> > So in iron, depending on purity, the peak
> radiation
> > frequency ranges from KHz to MHz, not hundreds of
> > MHz
> > let alone GHz. Even if it were microwaves (GHz),
> > which
> > for the most part the radiation is not, the metal
> > would act as a high refractive index. In other
> > words,
> > the metal would slow down the radiation velocity.
> > Furthermore, most of the radiation would
> internally
> > reflect off the cores outer walls. Note that in
> > microwave ovens the metal reflects the radiation--
> > only a small amount is absorbed. This process of
> > slowing down the radiation and reflecting is
> > understood when studying electrodynamics in
> detail.
> > Also you can see this effect in electrodynamic
> > computer simulations. The end result would be most
> > of
> > the radiation reflecting internally, which would
> > cause
> > heat. Here's a list of methods to decrease the
> > magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation
> > in
> > addition to increasing the potential radiation.
> > 
> > 1.  Use materials with smallest domains at
> operating
> > temperatures-- amorphous and nanocrystalline
> cores.
> > The smaller the domain the more potential energy.
> > When
> > times permit I would like to precisely demonstrate
> > this in a step-by-step process using conventional
> > physics.
> > 2. The thinner the core the better! Your goal is
> to
> > prevent the core from absorbing the MCE radiation.
> > Presently I am pondering upon a design that uses
> > long
> > thin magnetic electrically conductive wires. The
> > thin
> > wire would be the core and coil.
> > 3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated
> core
> > prevents the intrinsic electron spins from
> absorbing
> > the magnetocaloric energy. Of course a fully
> > saturated
> > core is useless, but no realistic coil can fully
> > saturate magnetic material. The core should be
> close
> > to saturation.
> > 4. Unless you use filters you'll need to flip the
> > process so you can collect the energy during the
> > cores
> > radiating cycle. You do this with a permanent
> > magnet.
> > Also the PM helps saturate the core, but you don't
> > want to fully saturate it.
> > 5. The field from your coil will oppose the PM's
> > field. So you slowly increase your coil current to
> > decrease the cores net applied field and then you
> > want
> > to drop the current or reverse the current as
> > quickly
> > as possible (high di/dt). High di/dt causes a
> higher
> > percentage of the electron spins to flip
> > simultaneously, which in turn greatly reduces the
> > cores ability to absorb MCE energy, which allows
> > more
> > of the energy to escape the core. In short, ultra
> > high
> > di/dt lowers the effective permeability, which in
> > turn
> > prevents the core from absorbing a great deal of
> the
> > MCE energy, which your circuit can then properly
> > absorb. If the core material has low electrical
> > resistivity then the Eddy currents will absorb the
> > radiating energy and then with precise timing you
> > can
> > rob a certain percentage of the Eddy currents
> > energy.
> >
> 
> Robin, 
> 
> I should add there are two methods of extracting MCE
> energy. If the material is electrically conductive
> as
> iron then it is probably best to allow the free
> electrons to absorb MCE energy in the form of eddy
> currents. At the precise moment the coil would
> extract
> as much eddy current energy as possible.



I've added a new section to the MEMM wiki project
titled "First Released Details" -->

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM

Paul Lowrance


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:36:45 +1000
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In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:24:45 -0700
(PDT):
Hi Paul,
[snip]
>Furthermore, most of the radiation would internally
>reflect off the cores outer walls. 

If the core is solid metal, then I doubt the radiation would ever
make it to the outer walls. It would all be absorbed by the free
electrons in the metal. However this may not be a bad thing. A
normal radio antenna is also made of metal, and when it intercepts
radio waves it just results in an oscillating current in the
metal, particularly if the antenna is tuned to the frequency of
the waves. So you could do the same thing. Just determine what the
frequency is, and attach a tank circuit to the core that matches
the frequency of the core. You have direct conversion into RF
energy in the tank circuit (with a bit of luck). 
What you end up with is a tuned antenna, with an internal power
source.
Then all you have to do is rectify the output of the tank circuit,
and store it in a capacitor. If the voltage isn't high enough for
rectification, then just couple a transformer to the tank circuit
and boost it first.

>Note that in
>microwave ovens the metal reflects the radiation--
>only a small amount is absorbed. This process of
>slowing down the radiation and reflecting is
>understood when studying electrodynamics in detail.
>Also you can see this effect in electrodynamic
>computer simulations. The end result would be most of
>the radiation reflecting internally, which would cause
>heat. 

Actually, that's what I was referring to in my previous email, but
then I realized that that isn't what happens in an antenna,
therefore, perhaps not if the core forms part of a tuned circuit.

>Here's a list of methods to decrease the
>magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation in
>addition to increasing the potential radiation.

It might be easier to just let it "absorb" the radiation (see
above).
[snip]
>3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated core
>prevents the intrinsic electron spins from absorbing
>the magnetocaloric energy. 

You don't really need to worry about this, because the energy
isn't lost, even when it is absorbed by bound electrons. It is
just delays the output "temporarily". The trick is to include
rectification in the external circuit, so that there is a net flow
of power out of the core. (Once it has been converted into DC
there is no way it can reenter the core).
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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I just wanted to post the latest changes:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM
-------
First Released Details

Below are the two methods described in detail how to
extract "free energy" from the Magnetocaloric effect
and what occurs on the atomic scale.


First, a few prerequisites and definitions.

PM - short for Permanent Magnet.

Magnetic materials - Most magnetic materials are
either ferromagnetic or ferrimagnetic. They both
generate magnetic fields, but ferromagnetic is
stronger than ferrimagnetic. Ferrites are made with
ferrimagnetic material. Pure iron, cobalt, nickel,
etc. are ferromagnetic.

Electron orbital - The electrons are not particles,
but really wave-particles. Even so, a lot of electrons
do indeed have an equivalent orbital motion around the
atoms nucleus. Simply stated, some electrons orbit the
atom. Basically you can imagine this electron orbital
as a coil of current.

Intrinsic electron spin - I'll abbreviate this as IES.
If we zoom in a look at the electron we'll note there
is an equivalent vortex of current. Basically speaking
you can imagine the electron as a small coil with
current. More precisely this imaginary current is
spread out like a vortex. Essentially, IES is similar
to the electron orbital except the IES is far smaller
and more intense.

Magnetic field caused by all ferromagnetic or
ferrimagnetic materials - The magnetic field caused by
these materials mostly come from the IES, not electron
orbital. I've read values of 80% IES.

Magnetic moment - This is a field caused by either IES
or the electron orbital. If you have seen drawings of
the Earths magnetic field then you know what the
magnetic moment field looks like. See the below image.

Image:Magneticmoment.jpg

MCE - This is the Magnetocaloric effect.

Eddy current - Please see the following web page ->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current

Electron flip - This is as described, the electron
rotating 180 degrees and flipping. A great deal QM
(Quantum Mechanic) physicists are under the impression
the single electron does not rotate, but simply flips
in an instant, in zero seconds. This is a false
interpretation of QM. Experiments conducted by
companies such as IBM have shown that the electron not
only forces the entire atom to rotate, but it also
forces the atom to precess as it flips / rotates. The
actual electrons flip rate has been measured and it's
typically a few nanoseconds, but can be significantly
slower in electrically conductive magnetic materials.

Avalanches - This is an effect where a great deal of
electrons flip. It is an avalanche effect where one
electron will trigger another and so on until the
avalanche dies out.

Applied field - This is simply a magnetic field that
is applied to the magnetic material. This applied
field can come from current in a coil or from PM's.

Magnetic energy - this is in reference to the energy
associated with electron flips.


There are basically two main methods of extracting MCE
energy. -->


Method #1 --- Using the Eddy currents as a tool

This is the method Naudin used in both of his designs.
This method will not work on ferrite cores, as it
requires the magnetic material to be electrically
conductive at least on the micro scale. This is the
easiest method.

Lets start from the beginning and with a very simple
design. For simplicity lets use a design that does not
have any PM's (Permanent Magnets) because PM designs
introduce more complexity. We have a core with two
coils-- coil #1 and #2. This design therefore requires
a certain minimum amount of current running through
the coil to make up for the lack of PM. Note that coil
#2 is only for collecting energy. Our core is a
toroid.

So current is flowing through the coil #1. The net
magnetic field within the core is at level A. Now we
want to increase coil #1's current as rapidly as
possible. So coil #1 has increasing current and coil
#2 is completely off. What happens is the IES's
(Intrinsic Electron Spins) flip in avalanches. These
avalanches are very slow because our magnetic core is
electrically conductive. So there are avalanches
igniting here and there. These avalanches cause Eddy
currents, since our magnetic material is electrically
conductive. So basically a great deal of the energy
associated with the IES flip is given to the Eddy
current. We see within magnetic material there's a
storm brewing as the applied field increases. As the
applied field increases there are millions of nano
size avalanches and Eddy currents. The avalanches
generate energy, which Eddy currents collect. The Eddy
currents have an RL decay period, once they reach
peak, meaning the Eddy currents decay at a changing
rate, simply stated.

At this moment our applied field is increasing, there
are avalanches and Eddy currents. At the precise
moment, and time is crucial, our coil #1 suddenly
turns off and coil #2 turns on. A lot of electrons are
still flipping and we already have a lot of energy
built up in Eddy currents. We now have no current
through coil #1. For simplicity coil #2 is connect to
a resistor. So the resistor across coil #2 collects
energy, which it dissipates in the form of heat. At
some point the Eddy currents in totality will reach
maximum and begin to fall. It is the job of coil #2
and its load (the resistor) to rob as much of this
Eddy energy as possible.

Eventually the net magnetic field in the core will
fall back to level A, as mentioned above, and the
process repeats.


Method #2 --- The High Speed method

I'll document this method at a later time. Essentially
this method requires non-electrical magnetic core such
as ferrites. This method could possibly generate more
power, but it requires extraordinarily high performing
parts that can switch in roughly a nanosecond while
allowing either high current or have high breakdown
voltages. As in method #1, the core is always
partially magnetized.

This method does not rely on the micro eddy currents.
Rather, at high speed the coil current must increase
(switch completely on) faster than a fraction of one
flip speed. Since the core is non-electrically
conductive the electron flips will occur at high
speed, typically in a few nanoseconds. It's the job of
the coil to generate one coherent simultaneous
avalanche pulse. When the electron flip process has
reached a certain rotation (roughly 90 degrees
rotation) then it is time to collect the energy.
Remember, just as in method #1, the core starts at
level A net magnetic field. So the core is partially
magnetized from the start. It is this strong net
magnetic field that provides so much energy when the
electrons flip. The magnetic field caused by the coil
is but a fraction of the field caused by the magnetic
material. That is why one cubic inch of Metglas
oscillating at 100 KHz generates 15 mega joules of
energy exchanges in one second (15 megawatts) per
Tesla.


Note that the effective permeability in method #1
would be relatively low (~5 to 100) as compared to
method #2.


Paul Lowrance

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
> In reply to  Paul's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006
> 22:24:45 -0700
> (PDT):
> Hi Paul,
> [snip]
> >Furthermore, most of the radiation would internally
> >reflect off the cores outer walls. 
> 
> If the core is solid metal, then I doubt the
> radiation would ever
> make it to the outer walls. It would all be absorbed
> by the free
> electrons in the metal.

Hi Robin,

If the metal has poor electrical resistance then sure.
Metals are generally good reflectors. To understand
how this works one needs to understand wave mechanics.
Reflectance occurs during changes in effective
refractive index.  Free electrons give metals high
effective refractive index. Since the magnetic field
_originates_ within the metal it will traverse at a
slower rate. The rate of absorption depends on the
metal.



> However this may not be a bad thing. A
> normal radio antenna is also made of metal, and when
> it intercepts
> radio waves it just results in an oscillating
> current in the
> metal, particularly if the antenna is tuned to the
> frequency of
> the waves.

Yes, but in that case the field is traversing from air
to metal. In magnetic material the field originates
within the dense material.



[snip]
> >Here's a list of methods to decrease the
> >magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation
> in
> >addition to increasing the potential radiation.
> 
> It might be easier to just let it "absorb" the
> radiation (see
> above).
> [snip]
> >3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated
> core
> >prevents the intrinsic electron spins from
> absorbing
> >the magnetocaloric energy. 
> 
> You don't really need to worry about this, because
> the energy
> isn't lost, even when it is absorbed by bound
> electrons. It is
> just delays the output "temporarily". The trick is
> to include
> rectification in the external circuit, so that there
> is a net flow
> of power out of the core. (Once it has been
> converted into DC
> there is no way it can reenter the core).

In method #1 that's idea-- allow Eddy currents to
collect a significant part of MCE energy and then
collect as much Eddy current energy as possible.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: MCE energy could be the smoking gun
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
[snip]
> >Here's a list of methods to decrease the
> >magnetic materials ability to absorb the radiation
> in
> >addition to increasing the potential radiation.
> 
> It might be easier to just let it "absorb" the
> radiation (see
> above).
> [snip]
> >3. High saturation materials. A fully saturated
> core
> >prevents the intrinsic electron spins from
> absorbing
> >the magnetocaloric energy. 
> 
> You don't really need to worry about this, because
> the energy
> isn't lost, even when it is absorbed by bound
> electrons. It is
> just delays the output "temporarily". The trick is
> to include
> rectification in the external circuit, so that there
> is a net flow
> of power out of the core. (Once it has been
> converted into DC
> there is no way it can reenter the core).
> [snip]
> Regards,


Hi Robin,

I should have split the so-called "secrets" into two
categories-- one for Method #1 and another for Method
#2. I'm sure you had read Method #1 at the time, but
the list of secrets mentioned "thin cores," which was
probably confusing. The so-called "secrets" are a
combined list of recommended techniques, not
pertaining to any specific method.  Therefore the list
is now split in two categories -->

* Tips for Method #1
* Tips for Method #2

Also the wiki was significantly cleaned up.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM

Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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Subject: [Vo]: Pure Iron and MCE V2006 #477
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<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>bull</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>see my work..no aeather needed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia><A=20

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<div>&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DGeorgia&gt;bull&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;<br>&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DGeorgia&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<br>&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DGeorgia&gt;see my work..no aeather needed&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
<br>&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DGeorgia&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<br>&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DGeorgia&gt;&lt;A=20<br>&nbsp;</div>

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: OT: Sluggish newsday
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In case it fails to display, once again, the subject header should 
read, "Sluggish Newsday"

subtitled: with friends like US who needs enemies...?

Does the aroma of sizzling Escargots whet your appetite? ... or is 
the slimy-slider all-wet as a food item in your culinary 
repertoire ?  Hope your pun-quotient hasn't gone soddenly sere ... 
as the following toxic-tale, plate du jour will otherwise surely 
turn your tummy against phylum mollusca forever. Turns out the 
little buggers have a taste for heavy metal ... and we're not 
talkin' Led Zep either.

Side note - unless you are of a 'certain age' you may not realize 
that the US "dropped" three enormous hydrogen bombs on Spain forty 
years ago. They were among the largest H-bombs ever deployed. 
That's right ... and what is equally miraculous is that we have 
somehow managed to marginalize that incident in the world-press 
over the years - since there were only a few dozen fatalities.

Savory or not, the snail has a long and diverse history as a human 
food source, even though not all varieties are edible; and many 
(now more than ever) are poisonous. Snail shells have been found 
at numerous archaeological sites, especially in the Mediterranean 
basin - and snails were an everyday item in the diet of the Romans 
and Greeks, etc. They are not "Kosher" but then again neither is 
lobster or scallops.

Escargots, as prepared in French cuisine, is a mostly-garlic dish 
said to contain cooked snails... but who can be sure with that 
much butter, garlic herbs and spices ... heck, the budget-gourmet 
could probably turn road-kill into a delicacy with that recipe. 
BTW the French word, and the edible species itself, are of Catalan 
(Spanish) origin.

The following news story is almost an "anniversary" remembrance of 
that other Spanish miracle, not the contemporaneous Franco 
'desarollla', but the Palomares fizzler, or whatever it was - is 
now buried deeply in the annals of the 'highly improbable, but 
true' ! ... hmmm... kinda reminiscent of the practice of eating 
snails. BTW - the "fortieth" is traditionally known as the 
Ruby-Anniversary, but in Spain it is more like Plutonium.

"MADRID (Reuters) - The discovery of radioactive snails at a site 
in southeastern Spain where three U.S. hydrogen bombs fell by 
accident 40 years ago may trigger a new joint U.S.-Spanish 
clean-up operation, officials said on Wednesday."

The hydrogen bombs fell near the fishing village of Palomares in 
1966 after a mid-air collision between a bomber and a refueling 
craft, in which seven of 11 crewmen died.
Hundreds of tons of soil were removed from the Palomares area and 
shipped to the United States after high explosive igniters on two 
bombs detonated on impact, spreading plutonium dust-bearing clouds 
across nearby fields.

.. bon apetite & kick it up a notch....

Signed,

Emeril Bam-Bam Tuttle

        famous Chef and creator of Escargot-Palomares (guaranteed 
to glow in the dark) 

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Subject: [Vo]: RE: [anti-Vo]: global warming
Status: O
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Now that just doesn't fit with popular opinion, it must not be true!  I mean
there is that Al Gore movie and that Discovery Channel program...  [heavy
sarcasm]

Does anyone else here find humor in that we question and challenge just
about every established theory in science an physics on this list yet global
warming is somehow untouchable?

Even if from just a devil's advocate standpoint, I appreciate the post.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: jack mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On
Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:22 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: global warming


Hi All,

I thought you might be interested in the below article
from Science News.  Global warming is real, but it may be
cyclical beyond our control, especially now that methane
is being released from the melting tundra -- probably a
deviation amplifying process.

Maybe we should be grateful for anything that puts greenhouse
gas into the atmosphere because we may be entering the cooling
phase of the Milankovitch cycle.

Jack Smith

------------

Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.
by Sid Perkins

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061014/note11.asp

``Ancient hot spell is linked to copious carbon dioxide

The presence of a particular mineral in ancient rock
suggests that during an extended warm period in Earth's
past, the atmosphere held at least triple the concentration
of carbon dioxide that it does today, a new analysis shows.

Between 52 million and 50 million years ago, Earth's
climate was the warmest it had been since the dinosaurs
died out 65 million years ago. The temperature of the
deepest water in the oceans, an indication of global
climate, was at least 10°C higher than it is today.

Some rocks derived from Colorado lake sediments of
that era contain large amounts of nahcolite, a natural
form of baking soda.  Lab tests indicate that nahcolite
would precipitate out of salty, alkaline lakes only if
atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide were above
1,125 parts per million (ppm), Tim K. Lowenstein and
Robert V. Demicco of the State University of New York
at Binghamton report in the Sept. 29 Science. Today,
concentrations of that greenhouse gas measure about 380
ppm, Lowenstein notes.

The climate around the ancient lake where these minerals
formed was probably similar to that at the Dead Sea today,
says Lowenstein. There, air temperatures average 24°C and
surface-water temperatures range from 21°C to 36°C. ''

References:

Lowenstein, T.K., and R.V. Demicco. 2006. Elevated eocene
atmospheric CO2 and its subsequent decline. Science
313(Sept.  29):1928.

Abstract available at
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5795/1928.

Sources:

Tim K. Lowenstein

Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental Studies

State University of New York, Binghamton

Binghamton, NY 13902

>From Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.

-----------------

Science 29 September 2006:

Vol. 313. no. 5795, p.  1928 DOI: 10.1126/science.1129555

Abstract

``Elevated Eocene Atmospheric CO2 and Its Subsequent Decline

by Tim K. Lowenstein* and Robert V. Demicco

Quantification of the atmospheric concentration of CO2
([CO2]atm) during warm periods of Earth's history is
important because burning of fossil fuels may produce
future [CO2]atm approaching 1000 parts per million by
volume (ppm).

The early Eocene (~56 to 49 million years ago) had the
highest prolonged global temperatures of the past 65
million years. High Eocene [CO2]atm is established from
sodium carbonate minerals formed in saline lakes and
preserved in the Green River Formation, western United
States.

Coprecipitation of nahcolite (NaHCO3) and halite (NaCl)
from surface waters in contact with the atmosphere
indicates [CO2]atm > 1125 ppm (four times preindustrial
concentrations), which confirms that high [CO2]atm
coincided with Eocene warmth. ''

Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental
Studies, State University of New York at Binghamton,
Binghamton, NY 13902, USA.

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail:
lowenst{at}binghamton.edu


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From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp wynterwood.co.uk>
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Subject: [Vo]: RE: [anti-Vo]: global warming
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No, it does not conflict with the need to do something serious about our =
fossil fuel emissions! In fact it makes urgent action even more =
necessary. I am tired of pointing out the GIGANTIC logical flaw that =
people who believe that somehow this is a "get out of jail free card" =
suffer from. If you were outside in a lightning storm fixing the pool =
pump would you neglect to turn the power off  because you could get =
struck by lightning and safe working practice was not necessary?


Nick Palmer
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No, it does not conflict with the need =
to do=20
something serious about our fossil fuel emissions! In fact it makes =
urgent=20
action even more necessary. I am tired of pointing out the GIGANTIC=20
logical&nbsp;flaw that people who believe that somehow this is a "get =
out of=20
jail free card" suffer from. If you were outside in a lightning storm =
fixing the=20
pool pump would you neglect to turn the power off&nbsp; because you =
could get=20
struck by lightning and safe working practice was not =
necessary?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick Palmer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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BlankNick Palmer wrote,

>No, it does not conflict with the need to do something...


Howdy Vorts,

Ah Ha!   Now therein lies the real problem. .." the need to do =
something"     !

Shakespeare once penned " there is a tide..."

It ain't up to us anymore which is why it's a waste of time to talk =
about global warm. I went to wedding in Dallas over the weekend. Dallas =
is one of the "NEW" boom town cities of the world where the movers and =
shakers migrate toward. I listened to the talk and after more than 40 =
years of business experience, I compared what I heard with what my gut =
feeling was telling me.
Best way to describe what I sensed in Dallas.. playing poker with scared =
money. It's like a game of monolopy.. everybody knows the money is make =
believe and the hotels and properties are  just play

Folks, global warming is way down the list of priorities.=20

Not to worry.. the laws of human nature are alive and well in the world. =
Read Cervantes "Don Quixote" and get the joke.
Jones Beene should write a 21 century version.

Richard
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<DIV>Nick Palmer wrote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;No, it does not conflict with the need to do something...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ah Ha!&nbsp;&nbsp; Now therein lies the real problem. .." the need =
to do=20
something"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; !</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Shakespeare once penned " there is a tide..."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It ain't up to us anymore which is why it's a waste of time to talk =
about=20
global warm. I went to wedding in Dallas over the weekend. Dallas is one =
of the=20
"NEW" boom town cities of the world where the movers and shakers migrate =
toward.=20
I listened to the talk and after more than 40 years of business =
experience, I=20
compared what I heard with what my gut feeling was telling me.</DIV>
<DIV>Best way to describe what I sensed in Dallas.. playing poker with =
scared=20
money. It's like a game of monolopy.. everybody knows the money is make =
believe=20
and the hotels and properties are &nbsp;just play</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Folks, global warming is way down the list of priorities. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not to worry.. the laws of human nature are alive and well in the =
world.=20
Read Cervantes "Don Quixote" and get the joke.</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene should write a 21 century version.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 10:07:36 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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I just heard Fox news say that the NK did detonate an atom bomb. Last 
night Hal Lindsey mentioned the 550 ton yield. Since the critical mass 
remains constant, I assume that they did a poor job of building it.

Kim Jung El has quite the collection of pornography, not just the 
standard, two people going at it variety either, he likes the kinky 
stuff, S and M, B and D. Reminds me of the time I mentioned my manic 
friend to a my psychological counselor friend. I described him as being 
so busy coming up with big ideas that he didn't have time to do anything 
else. She inquired, "does he use pornography?" I replied that, "yes he 
does." She replied, "it rots their brain." IMHO, Kim's exploding that 
bomb exhibits his rotten brain. Prager just mentioned that the 
international community is going to cut off his supply of Scotch 
Whiskey, that will make him cry in his beer.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: It was indeed a nuke
Status: O
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,221182,00.html

And, less than a kiloton.  now, everyone ive heard is saying, wow,
thats just a baby nuke. aww, isnt that cute.  they blew up a bomb
smaller than some CONVENTIAL bombs we have.


however, i recall back when the bunker buster nukes were being
discussed, and i recall statements that nukes that small were hard to
build, control, and set off properly, becuase of critical mass.

i see this as more of a , look, we have control over very very highly
advanced technology.  if we can do this, we can make nice nukes of
larger size as well.

-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 11:12:29 2006
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leaking pen wrote:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,221182,00.html
> 
> And, less than a kiloton.  now, everyone ive heard is saying, wow,
> thats just a baby nuke. aww, isnt that cute.  they blew up a bomb
> smaller than some CONVENTIAL bombs we have.
> 
> 
> however, i recall back when the bunker buster nukes were being
> discussed, and i recall statements that nukes that small were hard to
> build, control, and set off properly, becuase of critical mass.

The key here may be "control".  If they intended it to be a 0.550 KT 
blast, then perhaps they have demonstrated great control over a process 
nobody else has mastered.

OTOH if they intended it to be a larger blast and only part of the 
material fissioned and the rest just splattered around the test site as 
molten droplets -- which, I suspect, is extremely possible -- then 
they've demonstrated poor control over a process numerous other 
countries have already mastered, and they've also shown that they 
probably can't predict very well what's going to happen when they set 
one of these off.



> 
> i see this as more of a , look, we have control over very very highly
> advanced technology.  if we can do this, we can make nice nukes of
> larger size as well.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 11:27:02 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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Status: O
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rots the brain..  yeah, some say the same about comic books.

and

http://www.fas.org/faspir/2001/v54n1/weapons.htm

On 10/16/06, thomas malloy <temalloy usfamily.net> wrote:
> I just heard Fox news say that the NK did detonate an atom bomb. Last
> night Hal Lindsey mentioned the 550 ton yield. Since the critical mass
> remains constant, I assume that they did a poor job of building it.
>
> Kim Jung El has quite the collection of pornography, not just the
> standard, two people going at it variety either, he likes the kinky
> stuff, S and M, B and D. Reminds me of the time I mentioned my manic
> friend to a my psychological counselor friend. I described him as being
> so busy coming up with big ideas that he didn't have time to do anything
> else. She inquired, "does he use pornography?" I replied that, "yes he
> does." She replied, "it rots their brain." IMHO, Kim's exploding that
> bomb exhibits his rotten brain. Prager just mentioned that the
> international community is going to cut off his supply of Scotch
> Whiskey, that will make him cry in his beer.
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 11:40:25 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: 
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Off-Topic: Gasoline Prices and Market Manipulation

Most of us "want" to believe that the price we must pay for 
commodity items like gasoline - is somehow "above politics" and 
cannot be easily manipulated; especially to influence the outcome 
of what looks to be - in three weeks - very close mid-term 
elections in the USA.

Therefore, when the price of gasoline recently dropped 
substantially, only a few dyed-in-the-wool cynics made that 
particular connection. Personally, I did not see a political nexus 
then; but OTOH I'm proud to be labeled as a non-partisan political 
cynic, as the whole process stinks, including BOTH parties. Our 
system is often little more than a Pac-man PAC-sham which is run 
by "special interests" usually Petro-interests, and that will not 
change much, even if control of Congress does. There will be a 
liberal version of Jack Abramoff which emerges to fill that void 
and he will be distributing the same petrodollars for votes, just 
to a different constituency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff

Even this cynic could not imagine that the price of gasoline could 
be manipulated that quickly and by that much - given that the 
price of OPEC crude [which is out of our control as many prior 
shortages have demonstrated] which only recently has gone down by 
a lesser percentage --- nor -- that the price of gasoline could 
change the outcome of even close re-election races. Even if the 
electorate "votes their pocketbook" - does the cost of gasoline 
matter that much?

The stakes are extremely high. More so than you might imagine. 
Some of Nancy Pelosi's supporters claim that if the Democrats win, 
Bush will be impeached and possibly even put on trial in Hague for 
war crimes. Apparently charges have been secretly drawn up. You 
could say therefore, that the stakes *could not be higher* for the 
President and his inner clique, including Cheney and Rummy.

However, I would not want to get into a poker game against that 
threesome. Even using Pelosi's chips.

BTW the wholesale price of gasoline last week - in the USA - get 
this: it is less on the futures market (per gallon), then is the 
equivalent price of the crude oil it from which it is derived! 
Plus OPEC has stated that the recent smaller drop in crude oil 
prices actually began with the drop in gasoline prices in the 
USA -- and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This is a reversed 
cause-and-effect situation which would have been expected in a 
normal free market dynamics. So what could be going on ?

The futures market - by and large - determines the pump price in 
the USA for gasoline, as all the US production is totally 
pre-bought (an Enron legacy) ... and that futures market is 
controlled, ultimately, by a single NYC investment firm called 
Goldman Sachs (GS). This particular banking firm has long been a 
"suits" company with suspiciously close ties to both the CIA and 
Mossad - and to both political parties, not just the Republicans. 
It is the Halliburton of Banking. In a few words GS is the most 
profitable and successful investment firm in the world - is no 
longer under Jewish control, if it ever was, and is the most 
"connected" bank around at high levels... and supposedly [what 
they do not want to publicize] : the biggest tax cheat in the 
banking world - done by hiding trading profits overseas, 
especially in Asia and then to Europe in a petrodollar recycling 
scheme.

After 9/11, when two of GS's banking competitors were nearly wiped 
out by the tragedy, reports appeared on the net, along with a 
scanned copy of an Goldman Sachs internal memo, said to be a 
smoking-gun of inner circle "fore-knowledge" of the event. It was 
a memo sent around but not in hard copy form except to only to a 
few overseas  offices: dated on September 10, and it is advising 
all employees of a possible terrorist attack. It recommended all 
employees avoid any American government buildings. It was supposed 
to be read and destroyed. Yes - WTC 6 is/was not exactly a 
"government building" per se, but more on that later...

The PR firm handling the GS account has countered these rumors and 
"conspiracy theory" reports in general - with the disdainful reply 
that the purported memo (which they did not deny) referred only to 
government buildings, and apparently only to such buildings in 
Japan, not to "the Street". Huh? How many US government building 
do we have in Japan? Anyway, critics have been trying every since 
to determine if Goldman Sachs distributed other electronic memos, 
closer to home, which have not come to light. They apparently have 
an internal computer system which wipes all computers of a certain 
type of internal email. You can check for yourself on how they 
fared in 9/11.

Anyway... enough pandering to conspiracy nuts. Here are some hard 
facts.

Back in July, nobody thought much about the fact that President 
Bush had nominated Henry M. Paulson, Jr. to be the 74th Secretary 
of the Treasury. Quick confirmation. This was just another in a 
long line of candidates picked from the ranks of GS for high 
office especially at Treasury.

Yes, Paulson had been the recent Chairman and Chief Executive 
Officer of Goldman Sachs. At the time, a couple of months ago, 
this did not raise eyebrows except for the fact that Goldman had 
been aggressively stacking the commodities futures market to 
reflect its long-position outlook on gasoline- and was partly 
responsible for $3+ gallon run-up in fuel price during the summer 
driving season.

Some cynics may have thought that Bush was effectively promoting 
Paulson to take over Treasury, and that this job may have been a 
"payback" from the Bush oil connections - for a job well-done in 
the previous round of gasoline price manipulation. He received an 
enormous compensation package on leaving GS - so the tiny 
government paycheck was not an issue - with a quarter billion in 
the bank.

BTW - Paulson's three immediate predecessors as CEO of Goldman 
Sachs: Jon Corzine, Stephen Friedman, and Robert Rubin - each left 
the company as extraordinarily wealthy men (hundreds of millions 
in severance) to "serve" in government: Corzine as a U.S. Senator 
(later Governor of New Jersey), Friedman as chairman of the 
National Economic Council (later chairman of the President's 
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board), and Rubin as Treasury 
Secretary (for Clinton).

It goes like this. Serve 4-6 years at the helm at GS, then go into 
government with a quarter billion of severance to compensate for 
the minuscule government salary. And as for any lingering 
obligations ? Well, what does Goldman do just weeks after Paulson 
is sworn in as Treasury Secretary?

It announces a surprising, but not so subtle move that drives DOWN 
gasoline prices, short-term. The opposite of what they had been 
doing in the years prior to this. Not just a little short selling 
either - it was an aggressive move in retrospect, since there was 
no underlying reason for it at all on the supply side. OPEC was 
horrified and blindsided.

And surprisingly, it was a move that "lost" about $6 billion from 
commodity investors (in two weeks) who still held onto long 
positions. Almost all of these were oil companies themselves or 
overseas speculators.

Nice chess move in a way, to finance a re-election move "off the 
books" so to speak as it is coming just months before the 
election - that: according to cynics. What GS did - in effect- was 
to tell its traders - we are going to see the futures price of 
gasoline drop by 25% in one month. Tell your most trusted 
independent investors to get out now... or else. Let big oil and 
the Euro speculators take the loss. Very Enron-like, no? ...and 
need anyone add ... Mission accomplished. Almost theatrical.

Now, it may be hard to swallow this, for the political idealist, 
or for the free-market advocate, including some neo-cons who are 
just as shocked as the rest of us at high level "meddling" -- that 
this kind of market manipulation can go on at the Treasury level, 
and behind our collective backs - for whatever reason. But it only 
happens infrequently, and in fact this is the first time it has 
been used aggressively during Bush's tenure.

But the Washington Post has revealed another leg of the 
manipulation ploy - the one designed to show citizens that they 
are better-off than the "liberal press" is telling them - the one 
in which our Federal government long ago teamed-up with GS to form 
a clandestine group know as the PPT- or Plunge Protection Team. It 
is semi-official, but has access to billions in treasury assets 
and is controlled by the aforementioned secretary pf Treasury - 
Paulson (who BTW is a "Fundamentalist," a so-called Christian 
Scientist). PPT is supposed to jump in and buy stocks when the 
economy is in trouble in order to prevent recession 
"steamrolling," as happened prior to the Great Depression - 
prevent the "run on the bank" so to speak.

But it may turn out that recently, from early-October on, they 
have overshot their mandate, buying stocks long and have been 
pushing the stock market up to new records, just prior to the 
November elections by overly aggressive buying - which is 
certainly not part of any anti-recession mandate, as this is NOT 
an economic crisis, yet.
Ronald Reagan formed the PPT with Executive Order 12631. It's just 
another way of "painting the tape" (Using your tax money, or newly 
printed Federal Reserve dollars) to manipulate "free" markets for 
political goals. Goldman of course is a founding member of the 
secretive PPT and yet it gets its normal retail commission for 
every share purchased and sold. It will profit handsomely and has 
probably already made back Paulson's huge severance package, in 
just the gasoline trades alone.

Every share which has been bought recently to push the stock 
market to new highs - or futures bet on the gasoline shorts - will 
be sold after the election so that there will be little trace of 
what has happened - and perhaps even a net profit. You need some 
profits to keep things like this silent for a few months, even 
after Bush pulls off a narrow victory to maintain control.

This is the way US politics operates today. That is - unless more 
of us can raise a feeble voice in protest. I just wish that there 
was a viable and "honest" third party. There is none - now - and 
if the Democrats win, it will be more of the same. In fact there 
are reasons not to join the Bush opposition - national pride being 
one.

If regime change does happen, let's hope that it does not result 
eventually in the national disgrace of having Bush, Cheney and 
Rummy on trial overseas for war crimes ... the accusation being 
promoting war against a sovereign nation, under false pretenses, 
resulting in over half a million dead Iraqi. That is serious and 
who wants to see an American President treated like a common 
criminal?

But that is precisely what is "in the cards" with a Pelosi 
speakership. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says she will 
"drain the swamp" [in her fondest wish] should the Dems win 
control - and Pelosi takes the gavel as the first" Madam Speaker" 
in the history of American Politics. Many suspect she has already 
been in contact with prosecutors in the Hague, and is gloating in 
vindication for her strong opposition to Bush, with every new 
poll.

I would not want to be on the same Airline Flight she gets on.

Signed,

Harry Tuttle      Brazilian cynic-extraordinaire & wannabe GS-CEO 

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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:30:55 -0500
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thomas sez:
>
> I just heard Fox news say that the NK did detonate an atom bomb. Last
> night Hal Lindsey mentioned the 550 ton yield. Since the critical mass
> remains constant, I assume that they did a poor job of building it.
>
> Kim Jung El has quite the collection of pornography, not just the
> standard, two people going at it variety either, he likes the kinky
> stuff, S and M, B and D. Reminds me of the time I mentioned my manic
> friend to a my psychological counselor friend. I described him as being
> so busy coming up with big ideas that he didn't have time to do anything
> else. She inquired, "does he use pornography?" I replied that, "yes he
> does." She replied, "it rots their brain." IMHO, Kim's exploding that
> bomb exhibits his rotten brain. Prager just mentioned that the
> international community is going to cut off his supply of Scotch
> Whiskey, that will make him cry in his beer.

We can speculate till we're all glowing blue with radiation regarding Kim
Jong's alleged predilections. Perhaps he does like his Scotch and wine.
Perhaps he likes his pornography collection as well. Perhaps he even sings
the lumberjack song and likes to wear high-heels and a bra in the privacy of
his bedroom. So what? Much of this kind of speculation degenerates into
dis-informational fodder. It serves little to get at the real individual
other than to give many of us (and particularly those who are aligned to a
strict ideology) justification for hating what Kim represents – because he's
behaving like a hypocrite to his people, or that he behaves "that way"
because he's a pervert or a tyrant, or because his personal predilections
are causing his brain to rot away. It comforting to know who is wearing the
black hat.

It would appear that North Korea has demonstrated to the world that it can
detonate a nuclear bomb.

Deal with it.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 12:29:21 2006
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:12:33 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

>It would appear that North Korea has demonstrated to the world that it can
>detonate a nuclear bomb.

I still doubt it.

Anyway, Kim will not live forever, and nations like North Korea 
seldom last for long, so I do not think it matters much. The lesson 
of the cold war is that it is often best to do nothing provocative, 
stand your ground, and wait for things to improve. People tend to 
exaggerate the gravity of these "crises," as they are called before 
everyone forgets they happened. The U.S. did not go to war over the 
Quemoy and Matsu "crisis" in 1954, and yet we survived. The U.S. did 
go to war over the Tonkin Gulf attack and the Iraqi WMD crisis, but 
both events turned out to be fabricated, and responding to them on 
this scale was a mistake, to put it mildly.

- Jed


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Off-Topic: Gasoline Prices and Market Manipulation

Beene Sez:

...

> I would not want to be on the same Airline Flight [Pelosi] gets on.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Harry Tuttle      Brazilian cynic-extraordinaire & wannabe GS-CEO 

That's Buttle! ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

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From: "OrionWorks" <svj orionworks.com>
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:25:25 -0500
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Jed sez:

> Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>
> >It would appear that North Korea has demonstrated to the world
> that it can detonate a nuclear bomb.
>
> I still doubt it.
>
> Anyway, Kim will not live forever, and nations like North Korea
> seldom last for long, so I do not think it matters much. The lesson
> of the cold war is that it is often best to do nothing provocative,
> stand your ground, and wait for things to improve. People tend to
> exaggerate the gravity of these "crises," as they are called before
> everyone forgets they happened. The U.S. did not go to war over the
> Quemoy and Matsu "crisis" in 1954, and yet we survived. The U.S. did
> go to war over the Tonkin Gulf attack and the Iraqi WMD crisis, but
> both events turned out to be fabricated, and responding to them on
> this scale was a mistake, to put it mildly.
>
> - Jed

While no one lives forever they tend to possess the irritating
characteristic of living long enough to create consequences that the
"survived by" will have to deal with.

Jed, I pretty much agree in principal with your assessment of the situation.
I would also add that the last thing Kim wants is to be ignored. The more we
engage with Kim's regime (in the 1st person) the more legitimate he is
likely to feel his regime is being perceived by the rest of the world.

OTOH, if Kim manages to successfully sell nuclear material to rogue
organizations we will have a lot to "deal" with. It's my understanding that
the science of being able to identify where nuclear material had been
manufactured is a precise process. There would be no doubt as to who was
responsible for the source. It is pretty much understood by all parties
involved that if any clearly identifiable N. Korean nuclear material were to
be used in some nefarious way by a 3rd party it would spell the end of Kim's
regime - big time.

People scratch their heads wondering why Kim might even consider selling
nuclear material to rogue organizations if it is clearly understood that the
source would quickly be traced back to his country - with disaterous
consequences to his regime's health. But then, who really knows what Kim is
thinking. FWIW: The most interesting speculation I've heard (and it IS pure
speculation I might add since I have no hard evidence to back it up) is that
Kim's political decisions indicate there may be a streak of martyrdom in his
psychological makeup. If so, all the more reason to tread carefully. A
cornered, wild, starving animal is not likely to feel that it has many
viable options left.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.Orionworks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

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Subject: [Vo]: What happened?
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-------------------------------1161055376
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About a year of so ago Jed mentioned that private efforts were going on  just 
under the radar.  A few of these efforts were going to produce results  
within the next year.
 
What happened?  I have heard nothing.  Are these efforts  done?  It has been 
a long time.
 
Frank Znidarsic

-------------------------------1161055376
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
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e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>About a year of so ago Jed mentioned that private efforts were going on=
=20
just under the radar.&nbsp; A few of these efforts were going to produce res=
ults=20
within the next year.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What happened?&nbsp; I have heard nothing.&nbsp; Are these efforts=20
done?&nbsp; It has been a long time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Znidarsic</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1161055376--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 21:39:08 2006
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--=====================_352494500==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Yang's going strong, as far as I know...but flying way below the radar.
Stringham's probably got something viable but I suspect he's trying to 
negotiate his fair share of the bucket of gold.
I've heard no details from Energetics but they're a wildcard...they have a 
large and dynamic team and they hold their cards close to their chest...
There may be others - I'm not sure.
Anybody else that has made loud assertions or speculations is most likely 
full of crap. Why? 'Cause if they really had something, they wouldn't need 
to shout from rooftops. They'd be signing up major partners left and right 
and working like the bejeezus to figure out how to go from benchtop to 
display case before the next guy does.

s

At 08:22 PM 10/16/2006, you wrote:
>About a year of so ago Jed mentioned that private efforts were going on 
>just under the radar.  A few of these efforts were going to produce 
>results within the next year.
>
>What happened?  I have heard nothing.  Are these efforts done?  It has 
>been a long time.
>
>Frank Znidarsic

--=====================_352494500==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Yang's going strong, as far as I know...but flying way below the
radar.<br>
Stringham's probably got something viable but I suspect he's trying to
negotiate his fair share of the bucket of gold.<br>
I've heard no details from Energetics but they're a wildcard...they have
a large and dynamic team and they hold their cards close to their
chest...<br>
There may be others - I'm not sure.<br>
Anybody else that has made loud assertions or speculations is most likely
full of crap. Why? 'Cause if they really had something, they wouldn't
need to shout from rooftops. They'd be signing up major partners left and
right and working like the bejeezus to figure out how to go from benchtop
to display case before the next guy does.<br><br>
s<br><br>
At 08:22 PM 10/16/2006, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="arial" size=2>About
a year of so ago Jed mentioned that private efforts were going on just
under the radar.&nbsp; A few of these efforts were going to produce
results within the next year.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
What happened?&nbsp; I have heard nothing.&nbsp; Are these efforts
done?&nbsp; It has been a long time.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Frank Znidarsic</font></blockquote></body>
</html>

--=====================_352494500==.ALT--

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From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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On Monday 16 October 2006 16:25, OrionWorks wrote:
> Jed sez:
> > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> > >It would appear that North Korea has demonstrated to the world
> >
> > that it can detonate a nuclear bomb.
> >
> > I still doubt it.
> >
> > Anyway, Kim will not live forever, and nations like North Korea
> > seldom last for long, so I do not think it matters much. The lesson
> > of the cold war is that it is often best to do nothing provocative,
> > stand your ground, and wait for things to improve. People tend to
> > exaggerate the gravity of these "crises," as they are called before
> > everyone forgets they happened. The U.S. did not go to war over the
> > Quemoy and Matsu "crisis" in 1954, and yet we survived. The U.S. did
> > go to war over the Tonkin Gulf attack and the Iraqi WMD crisis, but
> > both events turned out to be fabricated, and responding to them on
> > this scale was a mistake, to put it mildly.
> >
> > - Jed
>
> While no one lives forever they tend to possess the irritating
> characteristic of living long enough to create consequences that the
> "survived by" will have to deal with.
>
> Jed, I pretty much agree in principal with your assessment of the
> situation. I would also add that the last thing Kim wants is to be ignored.
> The more we engage with Kim's regime (in the 1st person) the more
> legitimate he is likely to feel his regime is being perceived by the rest
> of the world.
>
> OTOH, if Kim manages to successfully sell nuclear material to rogue
> organizations we will have a lot to "deal" with. It's my understanding that
> the science of being able to identify where nuclear material had been
> manufactured is a precise process. There would be no doubt as to who was
> responsible for the source. It is pretty much understood by all parties
> involved that if any clearly identifiable N. Korean nuclear material were
> to be used in some nefarious way by a 3rd party it would spell the end of
> Kim's regime - big time.
>
> People scratch their heads wondering why Kim might even consider selling
> nuclear material to rogue organizations if it is clearly understood that
> the source would quickly be traced back to his country - with disaterous
> consequences to his regime's health. But then, who really knows what Kim is
> thinking. FWIW: The most interesting speculation I've heard (and it IS pure
> speculation I might add since I have no hard evidence to back it up) is
> that Kim's political decisions indicate there may be a streak of martyrdom
> in his psychological makeup. If so, all the more reason to tread carefully.
> A cornered, wild, starving animal is not likely to feel that it has many
> viable options left.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.Orionworks.com
> www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

     Cornered animals do fight, and crazed animals fight with a wild 
desparation
that knows no  bounds.  Kooky Kim has a long history of secret collaborations 
with the rich and infamous in the PRC as well, and could take some of them
down with him if he saw himself falling.  Some of those who promised him
troops and supplies in the past are perhaps seeing the unfeathering of their
nests and might seek changes in China's leadership.  Inasmuch as these may
BE China's leadership would explain the extra caution and reluctance to act
that could be explained by duplicity.  Sun Tsu stated that all things had a 
rational source, so some explanation must exist to make seemingly irrational
acts rational in the end.  
     In the early nineties of the last century, there were secret arrangements 
made by representatives of the DPRK leadership and senior leadership in the 
Chinese Army PRC concerning 'triggers' for re-supply and coordinated 
responses.  Whole PRC Army Groups were mobilized to readiness condition in 
Schenzhen Province in the mid nineties, and ominous unidentified massive 
increases in the male population totalling over six million people in the 
DPRK occured in the early nineties lending one to suppose
the whole 'crisis' was manufactured with the west being intended victim of an
enormous ambush.  Mr Clinton perhaps saw this trap for what it was and found
a diplomatic solution.  Perhaps also at that time China PRC was not yet ready
for a fight.  
      At present Kim may not percieve time on his side.   His country is six 
hundred thousand tons short of vitally needed foodstuffs at a time when 
contributions have dried up.  He even told the United Nations to stop 
shipping food, saying it was not needed;  this a seeminly irrational act.  
Why would he say this in the face of imminent starvation of millions in
his country this winter. The only reason he would not need it would be if
a large part of his population ceased to need to consume.  And the little boy
who never tasted power until his father died has now 'found his father's gun'!
     Say he does sell some of his klutzy hardware to some militants who then
decide to target some population center.  This center does not, as many
Americans believe, have to be an American interest or city.  Militants have
many targets in the world, and North Korean influenced and supplied militants
may well have their sights set on Japanese cities instead of American ones.
    The new surrogates, say, actually hit a city or some other target!  What 
then?  Who do we target in return?  Or maybe then the next shoe drops,
and we are threatened with a major war involving a large eastern power
with over a billion population if we dare retaliate, whilst Kim gloats.
And plots his next target.  It has happened before.  It was called Viet-Nam.

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Subject: [Vo]: Well` well! Richard Hoagland has shown a Moon artificial head artifact photograph from Apollo 17 mission
Status: O
X-Status: 

October 16, 2006,
On Coast to Coast Mission.com, George Noory presents a startling photograph
of a robotic type head artifact resembling "C3PEO" from "Star Wars". It is
with small doubt not a natural object.
"EnterpriseMission.Com" of Richard Hoagland's website is the main link.
Back to the Moon!! :-)
-ak-





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Emacs!


Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions

October 16, 2006


Lefteri Tsoukalas has resigned as head of the School of Nuclear Engineering 
today, according to Purdue spokeswoman Jeanne Norberg. Tsoukalas remains on 
staff at Purdue, Norberg said.

Tsoukalas was one of the two named accusers who made 
<http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATUREBubbleFusionSimplyHotAir.htm>cutting 
remarks against physicist Rusi Taleyarkhan to journalist Eugenie Samuel 
Reich, writing for Nature.

Exact details of the reason for Tsoukalas' resignation and to what extent 
it pertains to the Taleyarkhan matter are not known. A source who wishes to 
remain anonymous indicated that Purdue's policy of handling internal 
complaints may have been violated.

Taleyarkhan is one of the world's leading researchers on bubble fusion, an 
experimental investigation into energy research that Taleyarkhan considers 
a possible alternative to the large, costly and more-accepted forms of 
conventional fusion research as well as a possible alternative to fossil fuels.

Nature hastily published a series of 
<http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/MediaTrackOfThePurdueBubbleFusionStory.htm>four 
articles on March 8 that appeared to be an attack and an effort to 
<http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATURESilencingTheHype.htm>silence 
the work of Taleyarkhan. He has been working for months since the 
publication to respond to the attacks on his work and character.

The articles, which could have destroyed Taleyarkhan's career, were 
published in Nature's news section before the alleged scientific evidence 
against his work was published in the scientific literature. One of the 
articles was titled "Silencing the Hype," which displayed an intolerance 
for new science as well as a breakdown in the relationship between science 
and science journalism.

On Oct. 6, Physical Review Letters published the alleged evidence from Seth 
Putterman's colleague Brian Naranjo, both of UCLA, and Taleyarkhan's 
successful 
rebuttal.  (<http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#bubble>Related 
story)

On a related matter, Brian Josephson of Cambridge, a 1973 Nobel prize 
winner in physics, is questioning whether Nature has violated journalism 
ethics as outlined by the United Kingdom Press Complaints Commission. 
Specifically, Josephson questions whether Nature published "inaccurate, 
misleading or distorted information" and whether Nature failed, once the 
facts were brought to its attention, to publish a "correction, promptly and 
with due prominence, and -where appropriate - an apology."


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<html>
<body>
<img src="cid:6.2.0.14.2.20061016234802.030c8850 mail.newenergytimes.com.1" width=155 height=66 alt="Emacs!">
<br><br>
<b>Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear
reactions<br><br>
</b>October 16, 2006 <br><br>
<br>
Lefteri Tsoukalas has resigned as head of the School of Nuclear
Engineering today, according to Purdue spokeswoman Jeanne Norberg.
Tsoukalas remains on staff at Purdue, Norberg said.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Tsoukalas was one of the two named accusers who made
<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATUREBubbleFusionSimplyHotAir.htm">
cutting remarks</a> against physicist Rusi Taleyarkhan to journalist
Eugenie Samuel Reich, writing for <i>Nature.</i>&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Exact details of the reason for Tsoukalas' resignation and to what extent
it pertains to the Taleyarkhan matter are not known. A source who wishes
to remain anonymous indicated that Purdue's policy of handling internal
complaints may have been violated.&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Taleyarkhan is one of the world's leading researchers on bubble fusion,
an experimental investigation into energy research that Taleyarkhan
considers a possible alternative to the large, costly and more-accepted
forms of conventional fusion research as well as a possible alternative
to fossil fuels.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<i>Nature</i> hastily published a series of
<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/MediaTrackOfThePurdueBubbleFusionStory.htm">
four articles</a> on March 8 that appeared to be an attack and an effort
to
<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATURESilencingTheHype.htm">
silence</a> the work of Taleyarkhan. He has been working for months since
the publication to respond to the attacks on his work and character.
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
The articles, which could have destroyed Taleyarkhan's career, were
published in <i>Nature</i>'s news section before the alleged scientific
evidence against his work was published in the scientific literature. One
of the articles was titled &quot;Silencing the Hype,&quot; which
displayed an intolerance for new science as well as a breakdown in the
relationship between science and science journalism.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
On Oct. 6, <i>Physical Review Letters</i> published the alleged evidence
from Seth Putterman's colleague Brian Naranjo, both of UCLA, and
Taleyarkhan's successful rebuttal.&nbsp;
(<a href="http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#bubble">Related
story</a>) <br>
&nbsp;<br>
On a related matter, Brian Josephson of Cambridge, a 1973 Nobel prize
winner in physics, is questioning whether <i>Nature</i> has violated
journalism ethics as outlined by the United Kingdom Press Complaints
Commission. Specifically, Josephson questions whether <i>Nature</i>
published &quot;inaccurate, misleading or distorted information&quot; and
whether <i>Nature</i> failed, once the facts were brought to its
attention, to publish a &quot;correction, promptly and with due
prominence, and -where appropriate - an apology.&quot;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Finally some justice for Rusi
In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20061016234802.030c8850 mail.newenergytimes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Steven Krivit <steven1@newenergytimes.com>
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On Tuesday 17 October 2006 02:48, Steven Krivit wrote:
> Emacs!
>
>
> Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions
>
> October 16, 2006
>
>
> Lefteri Tsoukalas has resigned as head of the School of Nuclear Engineering
> today, according to Purdue spokeswoman Jeanne Norberg. Tsoukalas remains on
> staff at Purdue, Norberg said.
>
> Tsoukalas was one of the two named accusers who made
> <http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATUREBubbleFusionSimplyHotAir.ht
>m>cutting remarks against physicist Rusi Taleyarkhan to journalist Eugenie
> Samuel Reich, writing for Nature.
>
> Exact details of the reason for Tsoukalas' resignation and to what extent
> it pertains to the Taleyarkhan matter are not known. A source who wishes to
> remain anonymous indicated that Purdue's policy of handling internal
> complaints may have been violated.
>
> Taleyarkhan is one of the world's leading researchers on bubble fusion, an
> experimental investigation into energy research that Taleyarkhan considers
> a possible alternative to the large, costly and more-accepted forms of
> conventional fusion research as well as a possible alternative to fossil
> fuels.
>
> Nature hastily published a series of
> <http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/MediaTrackOfThePurdueBubbleFusionStory
>.htm>four articles on March 8 that appeared to be an attack and an effort to
> <http://newenergytimes.com/Inthenews/2006/NATURESilencingTheHype.htm>silenc
>e the work of Taleyarkhan. He has been working for months since the
> publication to respond to the attacks on his work and character.
>
> The articles, which could have destroyed Taleyarkhan's career, were
> published in Nature's news section before the alleged scientific evidence
> against his work was published in the scientific literature. One of the
> articles was titled "Silencing the Hype," which displayed an intolerance
> for new science as well as a breakdown in the relationship between science
> and science journalism.
>
> On Oct. 6, Physical Review Letters published the alleged evidence from Seth
> Putterman's colleague Brian Naranjo, both of UCLA, and Taleyarkhan's
> successful
> rebuttal.  (<http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET18.htm#bubble>Related
> story)
>
> On a related matter, Brian Josephson of Cambridge, a 1973 Nobel prize
> winner in physics, is questioning whether Nature has violated journalism
> ethics as outlined by the United Kingdom Press Complaints Commission.
> Specifically, Josephson questions whether Nature published "inaccurate,
> misleading or distorted information" and whether Nature failed, once the
> facts were brought to its attention, to publish a "correction, promptly and
> with due prominence, and -where appropriate - an apology."

Finally some justice for Rusi.  IMHO with so many fusion experiments closing
in on break even, and one Z-pinch type experiment obtaining 300 x(10^6) deg K.
for several seconds generating 200,000 amps of energy, the day draws near
when fusion will be a reality.

Standing Bear

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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-------------------------------1161136681
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Thank you Steven Krivit.  I hope to meet you  someday.
 
Frank Znidarsic



-------------------------------1161136681
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
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<DIV><SPAN class=3Dsender>Thank you Steven Krivit.&nbsp; I hope to meet you=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3Dsender></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dsender>Frank Znidarsic</SPAN></DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 19:08:55 2006
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Nick Palmer wrote:

> No, it does not conflict with the need to do something serious about 
> our fossil fuel emissions! In fact it makes urgent action even more 
> necessary. I am tired of

I question that anything can be done on a worldwide basis. I would like 
to mention the alge pond solution. There is plenty of desert in western 
Australia with the ocean near by. If the powers that be wanted to do 
something they could, but I'm not going to hold my breath.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 19:48:52 2006
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

>thomas sez:
>
>>I just heard Fox news say that the NK did detonate an atom bomb. Last
>>night Hal Lindsey mentioned the 550 ton yield. Since the critical mass
>>
>>
>>We can speculate till we're all glowing blue with radiation regarding Kim
>>Jong's alleged predilections. Perhaps he does like his Scotch and wine.
>>
I was making the point that Kim's decision to shoot off an atom bomb or 
two, seems like the action of a lunatic. For one thing while our ground 
forces are tied up, our naval and sea forces aren't. For another thing, 
the Japanese Samari were sound asleep, and he woke them up. OTOH, as 
long as the Chinese are willing to tolerate his nonsense, I doubt that 
anything will be done.

BTW, Kim's behavior is well documented. Have you ever heard about his 
having people kidnapped and forcing them to acquiesce to his whims? This 
includes young women, and a film producer. .


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From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy usfamily.net] 

Thomas,

<SNIP>
There is plenty of desert in western Australia with the ocean near by. If
the powers that be wanted to do something they could,
<SNIP>

Here in Western Australia they had the option of building a covered
"aquaduct" from the north of the state to bring fresh water down to Perth
and the more populated areas of the state or build a desalination plant
close to Perth.

Unfortunately for us they, the standing state government, went with the
desalination plant on the coast which is starting to reveal many more
environmental issues that were not taken in to account, not to mention the
ongoing energy costs of running it.

The decision was made based on "todays price" in dollar values and not the
long term environmental versus "$" cost.

Yet another example of Government making decisions based on the "next
election" results rather than the "next generation" costs.

If Elected Government Officials were personally held accountable for the
decisions made by them as individuals rather than hide behind "Parliamentary
Privilege" then many of the decisions made would be considered much more
carefully than they are currently. Imagine where the western world would be
today if this was the case. 


John Rudiger
Perth, Western Australia.

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Iraq's operational funding plan is based on oil revenue.  The barrel price
was too low at the 'end' of the war and had to be inflated to make the house
of cards stand.  It's an indirect funding scam to keep the true cost burden
on the American public out of the headlines.  DOD budgets can be cloaked in
patriotism, but nation welfare can not.  Yes, the same mechanism that
artificially manipulated it up is now pushing it back down for the purposes
of the election season.  Watch barrel prices return to pre-election high in
December no matter who wins control of congress.

Very cynical today... sorry.

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:20 PM
To: vortex
Subject: [Vo]:


Off-Topic: Gasoline Prices and Market Manipulation

Most of us "want" to believe that the price we must pay for
commodity items like gasoline - is somehow "above politics" and
cannot be easily manipulated; especially to influence the outcome
of what looks to be - in three weeks - very close mid-term
elections in the USA.

Therefore, when the price of gasoline recently dropped
substantially, only a few dyed-in-the-wool cynics made that
particular connection. Personally, I did not see a political nexus
then; but OTOH I'm proud to be labeled as a non-partisan political
cynic, as the whole process stinks, including BOTH parties. Our
system is often little more than a Pac-man PAC-sham which is run
by "special interests" usually Petro-interests, and that will not
change much, even if control of Congress does. There will be a
liberal version of Jack Abramoff which emerges to fill that void
and he will be distributing the same petrodollars for votes, just
to a different constituency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff

Even this cynic could not imagine that the price of gasoline could
be manipulated that quickly and by that much - given that the
price of OPEC crude [which is out of our control as many prior
shortages have demonstrated] which only recently has gone down by
a lesser percentage --- nor -- that the price of gasoline could
change the outcome of even close re-election races. Even if the
electorate "votes their pocketbook" - does the cost of gasoline
matter that much?

The stakes are extremely high. More so than you might imagine.
Some of Nancy Pelosi's supporters claim that if the Democrats win,
Bush will be impeached and possibly even put on trial in Hague for
war crimes. Apparently charges have been secretly drawn up. You
could say therefore, that the stakes *could not be higher* for the
President and his inner clique, including Cheney and Rummy.

However, I would not want to get into a poker game against that
threesome. Even using Pelosi's chips.

BTW the wholesale price of gasoline last week - in the USA - get
this: it is less on the futures market (per gallon), then is the
equivalent price of the crude oil it from which it is derived!
Plus OPEC has stated that the recent smaller drop in crude oil
prices actually began with the drop in gasoline prices in the
USA -- and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This is a reversed
cause-and-effect situation which would have been expected in a
normal free market dynamics. So what could be going on ?

The futures market - by and large - determines the pump price in
the USA for gasoline, as all the US production is totally
pre-bought (an Enron legacy) ... and that futures market is
controlled, ultimately, by a single NYC investment firm called
Goldman Sachs (GS). This particular banking firm has long been a
"suits" company with suspiciously close ties to both the CIA and
Mossad - and to both political parties, not just the Republicans.
It is the Halliburton of Banking. In a few words GS is the most
profitable and successful investment firm in the world - is no
longer under Jewish control, if it ever was, and is the most
"connected" bank around at high levels... and supposedly [what
they do not want to publicize] : the biggest tax cheat in the
banking world - done by hiding trading profits overseas,
especially in Asia and then to Europe in a petrodollar recycling
scheme.

After 9/11, when two of GS's banking competitors were nearly wiped
out by the tragedy, reports appeared on the net, along with a
scanned copy of an Goldman Sachs internal memo, said to be a
smoking-gun of inner circle "fore-knowledge" of the event. It was
a memo sent around but not in hard copy form except to only to a
few overseas  offices: dated on September 10, and it is advising
all employees of a possible terrorist attack. It recommended all
employees avoid any American government buildings. It was supposed
to be read and destroyed. Yes - WTC 6 is/was not exactly a
"government building" per se, but more on that later...

The PR firm handling the GS account has countered these rumors and
"conspiracy theory" reports in general - with the disdainful reply
that the purported memo (which they did not deny) referred only to
government buildings, and apparently only to such buildings in
Japan, not to "the Street". Huh? How many US government building
do we have in Japan? Anyway, critics have been trying every since
to determine if Goldman Sachs distributed other electronic memos,
closer to home, which have not come to light. They apparently have
an internal computer system which wipes all computers of a certain
type of internal email. You can check for yourself on how they
fared in 9/11.

Anyway... enough pandering to conspiracy nuts. Here are some hard
facts.

Back in July, nobody thought much about the fact that President
Bush had nominated Henry M. Paulson, Jr. to be the 74th Secretary
of the Treasury. Quick confirmation. This was just another in a
long line of candidates picked from the ranks of GS for high
office especially at Treasury.

Yes, Paulson had been the recent Chairman and Chief Executive
Officer of Goldman Sachs. At the time, a couple of months ago,
this did not raise eyebrows except for the fact that Goldman had
been aggressively stacking the commodities futures market to
reflect its long-position outlook on gasoline- and was partly
responsible for $3+ gallon run-up in fuel price during the summer
driving season.

Some cynics may have thought that Bush was effectively promoting
Paulson to take over Treasury, and that this job may have been a
"payback" from the Bush oil connections - for a job well-done in
the previous round of gasoline price manipulation. He received an
enormous compensation package on leaving GS - so the tiny
government paycheck was not an issue - with a quarter billion in
the bank.

BTW - Paulson's three immediate predecessors as CEO of Goldman
Sachs: Jon Corzine, Stephen Friedman, and Robert Rubin - each left
the company as extraordinarily wealthy men (hundreds of millions
in severance) to "serve" in government: Corzine as a U.S. Senator
(later Governor of New Jersey), Friedman as chairman of the
National Economic Council (later chairman of the President's
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board), and Rubin as Treasury
Secretary (for Clinton).

It goes like this. Serve 4-6 years at the helm at GS, then go into
government with a quarter billion of severance to compensate for
the minuscule government salary. And as for any lingering
obligations ? Well, what does Goldman do just weeks after Paulson
is sworn in as Treasury Secretary?

It announces a surprising, but not so subtle move that drives DOWN
gasoline prices, short-term. The opposite of what they had been
doing in the years prior to this. Not just a little short selling
either - it was an aggressive move in retrospect, since there was
no underlying reason for it at all on the supply side. OPEC was
horrified and blindsided.

And surprisingly, it was a move that "lost" about $6 billion from
commodity investors (in two weeks) who still held onto long
positions. Almost all of these were oil companies themselves or
overseas speculators.

Nice chess move in a way, to finance a re-election move "off the
books" so to speak as it is coming just months before the
election - that: according to cynics. What GS did - in effect- was
to tell its traders - we are going to see the futures price of
gasoline drop by 25% in one month. Tell your most trusted
independent investors to get out now... or else. Let big oil and
the Euro speculators take the loss. Very Enron-like, no? ...and
need anyone add ... Mission accomplished. Almost theatrical.

Now, it may be hard to swallow this, for the political idealist,
or for the free-market advocate, including some neo-cons who are
just as shocked as the rest of us at high level "meddling" -- that
this kind of market manipulation can go on at the Treasury level,
and behind our collective backs - for whatever reason. But it only
happens infrequently, and in fact this is the first time it has
been used aggressively during Bush's tenure.

But the Washington Post has revealed another leg of the
manipulation ploy - the one designed to show citizens that they
are better-off than the "liberal press" is telling them - the one
in which our Federal government long ago teamed-up with GS to form
a clandestine group know as the PPT- or Plunge Protection Team. It
is semi-official, but has access to billions in treasury assets
and is controlled by the aforementioned secretary pf Treasury -
Paulson (who BTW is a "Fundamentalist," a so-called Christian
Scientist). PPT is supposed to jump in and buy stocks when the
economy is in trouble in order to prevent recession
"steamrolling," as happened prior to the Great Depression -
prevent the "run on the bank" so to speak.

But it may turn out that recently, from early-October on, they
have overshot their mandate, buying stocks long and have been
pushing the stock market up to new records, just prior to the
November elections by overly aggressive buying - which is
certainly not part of any anti-recession mandate, as this is NOT
an economic crisis, yet.
Ronald Reagan formed the PPT with Executive Order 12631. It's just
another way of "painting the tape" (Using your tax money, or newly
printed Federal Reserve dollars) to manipulate "free" markets for
political goals. Goldman of course is a founding member of the
secretive PPT and yet it gets its normal retail commission for
every share purchased and sold. It will profit handsomely and has
probably already made back Paulson's huge severance package, in
just the gasoline trades alone.

Every share which has been bought recently to push the stock
market to new highs - or futures bet on the gasoline shorts - will
be sold after the election so that there will be little trace of
what has happened - and perhaps even a net profit. You need some
profits to keep things like this silent for a few months, even
after Bush pulls off a narrow victory to maintain control.

This is the way US politics operates today. That is - unless more
of us can raise a feeble voice in protest. I just wish that there
was a viable and "honest" third party. There is none - now - and
if the Democrats win, it will be more of the same. In fact there
are reasons not to join the Bush opposition - national pride being
one.

If regime change does happen, let's hope that it does not result
eventually in the national disgrace of having Bush, Cheney and
Rummy on trial overseas for war crimes ... the accusation being
promoting war against a sovereign nation, under false pretenses,
resulting in over half a million dead Iraqi. That is serious and
who wants to see an American President treated like a common
criminal?

But that is precisely what is "in the cards" with a Pelosi
speakership. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says she will
"drain the swamp" [in her fondest wish] should the Dems win
control - and Pelosi takes the gavel as the first" Madam Speaker"
in the history of American Politics. Many suspect she has already
been in contact with prosecutors in the Hague, and is gloating in
vindication for her strong opposition to Bush, with every new
poll.

I would not want to be on the same Airline Flight she gets on.

Signed,

Harry Tuttle      Brazilian cynic-extraordinaire & wannabe GS-CEO

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 21:46:33 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: [anti-Vo]: global warming
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:46:16 +1000
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In reply to  John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com's message of Wed, 18 Oct
2006 10:59:23 +0800:
Hi John,
[snip]
>From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy usfamily.net] 
>
>Thomas,
>
><SNIP>
>There is plenty of desert in western Australia with the ocean near by. If
>the powers that be wanted to do something they could,
><SNIP>
>
>Here in Western Australia they had the option of building a covered
>"aquaduct" from the north of the state to bring fresh water down to Perth
>and the more populated areas of the state or build a desalination plant
>close to Perth.
[snip]
I'm pleased to see they took my advice. The desalination approach
will in the long run be far cheaper (as cheaper energy sources
become available), not to mention setting a precedent for the many
thousands of plants yet to come, when all of Australia is
irrigated.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 22:27:02 2006
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John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com wrote:

>From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy usfamily.net] 
>
>Thomas,
>
><SNIP>
>There is plenty of desert in western Australia with the ocean near by. If the powers that be wanted to do something they could,
><SNIP>
>
>Here in Western Australia they had the option of building a covered "aquaduct" from the north of the state to bring fresh water down to Perth and the more populated areas of the state or build a desalination plant close to Perth.
>
>
If someone would have asked me, I'd have recommended solar distillation.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 22:54:24 2006
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There was absolutely no mention of Solar Distillation ever mentioned here in
Perth, beats me why it was never considered. Not only is it "free" energy
from the sun but with the added profits from salt production it would have
paid itself off so much sooner.

Anyone got a spare $20 Million for a start up? :-)

John.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 03:12:14 2006
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------=_Part_40496_370049.1161166290969
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

  Dear Vo.,

AND BILL BEATTY:

  (apology to Bill Beatty) ---->  We all know you have  your hands full with
life ... I for one am deeply grateful to be able to contribute to a
discussion
that is free from rot and decay and flaming.
   TO VO:  PLEASE...... if you want to write about political ...or other
stuff... go to the alternate group  that Bill Beatty has been kind enough to
provide.
  TO VO:  TURN OFF your html generators, do not send pgp or other code... do
this one on one PLEASE.
   If you do not know how vulnerable you are when you use HTML and-or XML
then PLEASE learn!
   Do NOT send word type documents, templates, '''cool looking'' text,
colors and the like...
       WHY?
        I will mention only two of many many many many many more reasons:

 [1]  the cool looking colors and text types use more band width and they may
be  sent to persons who do not have the software to even be able to know
what you sent..... was in color and or in some cool looking text  (not that
the color or appearance will change the content)
[2]  If you use and accept html, xml and the like... especially if you use
microsoft browser machines then you are not only vulnerable to nearly any
virus, Trojan, worm or other malware....  you subject ANYONE who corresponds
to you to the same vulnerabilities....

       EDUCATE YOURSELF

   WHAT DO COOL LOOKING GRAPHICS GET YOU?
WHAT CAN THESE COOL LOOKING ENVIRONMENTS CARRY TO YOUR
PEERS, FAMILIES, LOVED ONES AND SO ON.

       OR:

     "OOHHH".... LOOKS REAL COOL DUHHHH  SO IT must BE GOOD.

On 10/17/06, vortex-digest-request eskimo.com <
vortex-digest-request eskimo.com> wrote:

> Content-Type: text/plain
> vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2006 : Issue 480


    nb:

   Oh this is real cool, saves bandwidth, everyone Can read it and it really
helps to promote an interchange of scientific ideas.....

   [I will not cut all of this, but will leave some so all the Vos can see
how USEFUL this is .......[re the coded text in part, below...]

 NB:  "Mac Creator"  (does this means ??? Apples???"")



> --=====================_360047546==.REL
> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="1575e34d.jpg";
> x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752"
> Content-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20061016234802.030c8850 mail.newenergytimes.com.1>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="1575e34d.jpg"
>
>
> /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB
>
> AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB
>
> AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCABCAJsDASIA
>
> AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA



        Ah Yes.....

         VERY good an cool and cute apple based woo woo code....

         This is the best examples of idea interchange ... oh YES!''

------=_Part_40496_370049.1161166290969
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>AND BILL BEATTY:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; (apology to Bill Beatty) ----&gt;&nbsp; We all know you have&nbsp; your hands full with</div>
<div>life ... I for one am deeply grateful to be able to contribute to a discussion</div>
<div>that is free from rot and decay and flaming.</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; TO VO:&nbsp; PLEASE...... if you want to write about political ...or other</div>
<div>stuff... go to the alternate group&nbsp; that Bill Beatty has been kind enough to</div>
<div>provide.</div>
<div>&nbsp; TO VO:&nbsp; TURN OFF your html generators, do not send pgp or other code... do this one on one PLEASE.</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; If you do not know how vulnerable you are when you use HTML and-or XML</div>
<div>then PLEASE learn!</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Do NOT send word type documents, templates, '''cool looking'' text, colors and the like...</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WHY?</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I will mention only two of many many many many many more reasons:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;[1]&nbsp; the cool looking colors and text types use more band width and <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">they </font>may be&nbsp; sent to persons who do not have the software to even be able to know what you sent..... was in color and or in&nbsp;some cool looking text&nbsp; (not that the color or appearance will change the content)
</div>
<div>[2]&nbsp; If you use and accept html, xml and the like... especially if you use&nbsp;</div>
<div>microsoft browser machines then you are not only vulnerable to nearly any virus, Trojan, worm or other malware....&nbsp; you subject ANYONE who&nbsp;corresponds to you to the same vulnerabilities....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; EDUCATE YOURSELF</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; WHAT DO COOL LOOKING GRAPHICS&nbsp;GET YOU?</div>
<div>WHAT CAN THESE COOL LOOKING ENVIRONMENTS CARRY TO YOUR</div>
<div>PEERS, FAMILIES, LOVED ONES AND SO ON.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OR:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;OOHHH&quot;.... LOOKS REAL COOL DUHHHH&nbsp; SO IT must BE GOOD.</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/17/06, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:vortex-digest-request eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com</a></b> &lt;<a href="mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Content-Type: text/plain<br>vortex-digest Digest&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Volume 2006 : Issue 480</blockquote>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; nb:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh this is real cool, saves bandwidth, everyone Can read it and it really</div>
<div>helps to promote an interchange of scientific ideas.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; [I will not cut all of this, but will leave some so all the Vos can see how USEFUL this is .......[re the coded text in part, below...]</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;NB:&nbsp; &quot;Mac Creator&quot;&nbsp; (does this means ??? Apples???&quot;&quot;)</div>
<div><br>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">--=====================_360047546==.REL<br>Content-Type: image/jpeg; name=&quot;1575e34d.jpg&quot;;<br>x-mac-type=&quot;4A504547&quot;; x-mac-creator=&quot;4A565752&quot;
<br>Content-ID: &lt;<a href="mailto:6.2.0.14.2.20061016234802.030c8850 mail.newenergytimes.com.1">6.2.0.14.2.20061016234802.030c8850@mail.newenergytimes.com.1</a>&gt;<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64<br>Content-Disposition: inline; filename=&quot;
1575e34d.jpg&quot;<br><br>/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB<br>AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB<br>AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCABCAJsDASIA
<br>AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ah Yes.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; VERY good an cool and cute apple based woo woo code....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the best examples of idea interchange ... oh YES!''</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

------=_Part_40496_370049.1161166290969--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 06:02:53 2006
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Arnold <pulsed_ignition yahoo.com>
Subject: [Vo]: 9 Billion dollars in instant energy savings for California
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Has Enron ever given back the 9 Billion dollars to
California? The primary reason Arnold was swept into
office as I recall, the Governor at the time was ready
to prosecute Enron for that 9 Billion dollar theft -
has it been resolved.

Chris

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From: Christopher Arnold <pulsed_ignition yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: 9 Billion dollars in instant energy savings for California
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Robbin,

The point is everyone here SHOULD care about getting
ripped off, but how many of you have actually
applauded Arnold for his "HYDROGEN" initiative or his
H2 Hummer after forgiving or ignoring such criminal
behavior?


CA

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
wrote:

> In reply to  Christopher Arnold's message of Wed, 18
> Oct 2006
> 05:55:30 -0700 (PDT):
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >Has Enron ever given back the 9 Billion dollars to
> >California? The primary reason Arnold was swept
> into
> >office as I recall, the Governor at the time was
> ready
> >to prosecute Enron for that 9 Billion dollar theft
> -
> >has it been resolved.
> >
> >Chris
> 
> Actually the Californian population were
> deliberately manipulated
> into electing him so that he could "forgive" the
> debt, which he
> promptly did as soon as he assumed office, if I
> remember
> correctly. Not for nothing did the powers that be
> want a
> republican in office. With this in mind, you might
> try doing an
> Internet search.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 


__________________________________________________
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From: "OrionWorks" <svj orionworks.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:06:58 -0500
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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

>thomas sez:
>
>I just heard Fox news say that the NK did detonate an atom bomb. Last
>night Hal Lindsey mentioned the 550 ton yield. Since the critical mass

>>We can speculate till we're all glowing blue with radiation regarding Kim
>>Jong's alleged predilections. Perhaps he does like his Scotch and wine.
>>
> I was making the point that Kim's decision to shoot off an atom bomb
> or two, seems like the action of a lunatic. For one thing while our
> ground forces are tied up, our naval and sea forces aren't. For
> another thing, the Japanese Samari were sound asleep, and he woke
> them up. OTOH, as long as the Chinese are willing to tolerate his
> nonsense, I doubt that anything will be done.

I would agree that China most likely holds the important cards. We shall
just have to wait and see how tolerant and/or intolerant "the Dragon"
chooses to be.

> BTW, Kim's behavior is well documented. Have you ever heard about
> his having people kidnapped and forcing them to acquiesce to his
> whims? This includes young women, and a film producer. .

You are likely referring to film producer, Shin Sang-ok. If you can believe
what is printed in Wikipedia here are the more salient facts:

*******************************************************************

>From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok

North Korean period (1978–1986)

In 1978, actress Choi Eun-hee, recently divorced from Shin, was kidnapped
from Hong Kong to North Korea. When Shin traveled to Hong Kong to
investigate, he was kidnapped as well. The kidnappings were on orders of
future dictator Kim Jong-il, who wanted to establish a film industry for his
country to sway international opinion regarding the views of the Workers'
Party of Korea.[4] The North Korean authorities have denied the kidnapping
accusations, claiming that Shin came to the country willingly. Shin and his
wife made secret audio tapes of conversations with Kim Jong-il, supporting
his story."

Shin was put in comfortable accommodations, but, after an escape attempt,
was placed in prison. He was brought to Pyongyang in 1983, to learn why he
had been brought to North Korea. [4] His ex-wife was also brought to the
same dinner party, where she first learned that Shin was also in North
Korea. They re-married shortly afterwards, as suggested by Kim Jong-il.

>From 1983 Shin directed seven films with Kim Jong-il acting as an executive
producer. The best known of these films is Pulgasari, a giant-monster film
similar to the Japanese Godzilla, which can be seen as a metaphor for the
effects of unchecked capitalism. In 1986, eight years after his kidnapping,
Shin and his wife made a daring escape in Vienna[4], before eventually
fleeing to the United States, seeking political asylum.[1]

*******************************************************************

I bet there is a movie worth making here!

In the meantime there are plenty of less documented rumors circulated among
Kim's harshest critics for which the content appears to do nothing more than
attempts to paint Kim as a degenerate nincompoop. Most of those rumors
remain unsubstantiated, discounted, and unsupported.

It might help to keep in mind the obvious fact that most nincompoops are not
likely to be intelligent or wily enough to maintain political power, and
particularly for as long as Kim has shrewdly managed to do so. There also
appears to be little evidence to suggest the possibility that Kim is in
danger of being replaced anytime soon, unless, of course, he drops his
nuclear shoe. At that point all bets are off.

Personally, I don't think Kim is deliberately planning to drop a nuclear
shoe on anyone, and for obvious reasons. I suspect Kim has a far more
convoluted "contingency" plan of action in mind, one that actually might
work.

FWIW, as I had speculated previously, Kim's political behavior resembles
that of a martyr. His behavior of continued nuclear provocations suggests,
at least to this observer, that in a cool, conscious, and calculated way he
is deliberately trying to provoke the superpowers, (specifically, the United
States!) into attacking his country FIRST in what he hopes will turn out to
be a haphazard, ill-thought-out, and limited military campaign. He may be
basing that reasoning on what he has seen happening to the United States and
its continued debacles over in Iraq Land. From a leader with a martyr's POV,
to be able to successfully provoke such an ill-planned military engagement
originating from a hated superpower against his poor and starving county
would quickly legitimize his regime and simultaneously bring condemnation
and shame expressed from of the rest of the world on the doorstep of the
belligerent Superpower. IOW, since Kim's options and resources are quickly
dwindling to zilch, I suspect a major contingency plan he has had in place
for some time is to attempt to provoke the United States into in a limited
military campaign against his country. Instigating a limited military
campaign would be the only way he and his regime could hope to survive the
risky ordeal. The best way to provoke a superpower is to behave AS-IF you
really ARE going to drop a nuclear bomb, but with no rational intention of
actually planning on doing so. The point is to PROVOKE one's enemy into
ACTING OR REACTING FIRST SO THEY CAN BE BLAMED FOR STARTING THE WAR. And as
the military campaign unfolds, Kim could then expect to quickly garner
significant sympathy for all the trials and tribulations brought upon his
ravaged country. Remember, the United States instigated the latest military
campaign against Iraq, a fact that I'm sure has not been lost on Kim within
his martyr calculations. And also remember, martyrs love to garner as much
sympathy as they can possibly get from others - meaning the rest of the
world. But more importantly, global sympathy would eventually translate into
all sorts of reparations for his country, and of course his regime. It's
good to be the "Kim".

It's risky. It's exceedingly dangerous. It's also very clever and shrewd.
Considering the collective intellectual & emotional IQ of the current
administration behavior towards "evil" nations, I would say that Kim might
actually have a shot at achieving some level of global martyrdom, and
possibly even surviving a limited military attempt to nail him and his
regime to the cross.

God! I hope not!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks


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Subject: RE: [Vo]: 9 Billion dollars in instant energy savings for California
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Nah, but I hear they are developing their own nukes to extort economic
subsidies from neighboring states to compensate.  :^P

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Arnold [mailto:pulsed_ignition yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:56 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: 9 Billion dollars in instant energy savings for
California


Has Enron ever given back the 9 Billion dollars to
California? The primary reason Arnold was swept into
office as I recall, the Governor at the time was ready
to prosecute Enron for that 9 Billion dollar theft -
has it been resolved.

Chris

__________________________________________________
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Don't misunderstand.  I am not a popular media drone nor shill for any
particular political party platform.  I am not dismissing the science nor
challenging the credibility of the front liners... what I am challenging is
the causality that is being applied.  In statistics it's called "failing to
reject the null hypothesis".  It's a tricky way of saying something might be
true because it can not be conclusively proven to be false (in short
'definitely maybe').  It's the classic argument of theology... the existence
of a supreme being can neither be proven or disproved so many/most fail to
reject the null-hypothesis and assume true.

There is no doubt excessive CO2 and evaporating methane cathrates will have
a significant impact on the environment.  There is no question that current
activities of our parasitic infestation of this planet are the source of
much of the CO2 spike.  I think it's just irresponsible to hang our hat
entirely on atmospheric pollution global warming to explain increases in
tectonic and volcanic activity and deep water temperature changes,
especially in context to KNOWN, CYCLICAL geological and astronomic events
that are converging on this time frame... 1) magnetic flip of the poles 2)
pending ice age 3) increased solar output.  Our pollution is No.4 at best
and most likely on the tail end of the 80/20 on a pareto chart.  In the
strata it will be nothing more than a finger print that we were even here.
My money is on pole flip and the resulting inductive heating of the planet
core as flux lines are forced out of alignment with the sun's polarity...
but hey, that's just me.

My point is this... shame on us for crapping in our own fish bowl, but even
if we 100% stopped all polluting activities today these other CYCLICAL
events would continue and dramatic environmental change would still happen.
This is not conjecture, this relentless march is detailed in the strata over
eons.  It is only our own arrogance that precludes us to believe we have an
over reaching role in this process... to cause it or stop it.  We are
contributory bystanders at best IMO.

I know this isn't popular topic and I will agree to disagree with
dissenters.  I have no interest in perpetuating this thread any further...

-john


-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj exbang.com]
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 2:32 AM
To: johnsteck tetrahelix.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RE: [anti-Vo]: global warming


John you will certainly agree that the political color of global warming
concern proponents or dismissers has nothing to do with the validity or
invalidity of the concern.

What do you make of the present time steep CO2 rise seen in the chart linked
below (from the web site you pointed us to recently)? Do you think it is
natural, or that it won't generate any serious global warming?

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html

Note that if you align the CO2 and temperature graphs and scale them
identically you can see quite clearly that the CO2 peaks systematically lead
the temperature peaks by several hundred years, which IMHO answers the
question of which causes which , whether directly or via an amplifying
process such as methane outgasing from the melting permafrost.

Personally I feel concerned about the temperature peak which will follow the
present steep CO2 peak, will it over- or under- compensate our natural
tendency to plunge into the next ice age? I don't know. In any case accurate
modeling and adequate measures are called for.

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Steck" <johnsteck tetrahelix.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 6:13 AM
Subject: [Vo]: RE: [anti-Vo]: global warming


> Now that just doesn't fit with popular opinion, it must not be true!  I
mean
> there is that Al Gore movie and that Discovery Channel program...  [heavy
> sarcasm]
>
> Does anyone else here find humor in that we question and challenge just
> about every established theory in science an physics on this list yet
global
> warming is somehow untouchable?
>
> Even if from just a devil's advocate standpoint, I appreciate the post.
>
> -john
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jack mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On
> Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:22 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: [Vo]: global warming
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I thought you might be interested in the below article
> from Science News.  Global warming is real, but it may be
> cyclical beyond our control, especially now that methane
> is being released from the melting tundra -- probably a
> deviation amplifying process.
>
> Maybe we should be grateful for anything that puts greenhouse
> gas into the atmosphere because we may be entering the cooling
> phase of the Milankovitch cycle.
>
> Jack Smith
>
> ------------
>
> Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.
> by Sid Perkins
>
> http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061014/note11.asp
>
> ``Ancient hot spell is linked to copious carbon dioxide
>
> The presence of a particular mineral in ancient rock
> suggests that during an extended warm period in Earth's
> past, the atmosphere held at least triple the concentration
> of carbon dioxide that it does today, a new analysis shows.
>
> Between 52 million and 50 million years ago, Earth's
> climate was the warmest it had been since the dinosaurs
> died out 65 million years ago. The temperature of the
> deepest water in the oceans, an indication of global
> climate, was at least 10°C higher than it is today.
>
> Some rocks derived from Colorado lake sediments of
> that era contain large amounts of nahcolite, a natural
> form of baking soda.  Lab tests indicate that nahcolite
> would precipitate out of salty, alkaline lakes only if
> atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide were above
> 1,125 parts per million (ppm), Tim K. Lowenstein and
> Robert V. Demicco of the State University of New York
> at Binghamton report in the Sept. 29 Science. Today,
> concentrations of that greenhouse gas measure about 380
> ppm, Lowenstein notes.
>
> The climate around the ancient lake where these minerals
> formed was probably similar to that at the Dead Sea today,
> says Lowenstein. There, air temperatures average 24°C and
> surface-water temperatures range from 21°C to 36°C. ''
>
> References:
>
> Lowenstein, T.K., and R.V. Demicco. 2006. Elevated eocene
> atmospheric CO2 and its subsequent decline. Science
> 313(Sept.  29):1928.
>
> Abstract available at
> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5795/1928.
>
> Sources:
>
> Tim K. Lowenstein
>
> Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental Studies
>
> State University of New York, Binghamton
>
> Binghamton, NY 13902
>
>>From Science News, Vol. 170, No. 16, Oct. 14, 2006, p. 253.
>
> -----------------
>
> Science 29 September 2006:
>
> Vol. 313. no. 5795, p.  1928 DOI: 10.1126/science.1129555
>
> Abstract
>
> ``Elevated Eocene Atmospheric CO2 and Its Subsequent Decline
>
> by Tim K. Lowenstein* and Robert V. Demicco
>
> Quantification of the atmospheric concentration of CO2
> ([CO2]atm) during warm periods of Earth's history is
> important because burning of fossil fuels may produce
> future [CO2]atm approaching 1000 parts per million by
> volume (ppm).
>
> The early Eocene (~56 to 49 million years ago) had the
> highest prolonged global temperatures of the past 65
> million years. High Eocene [CO2]atm is established from
> sodium carbonate minerals formed in saline lakes and
> preserved in the Green River Formation, western United
> States.
>
> Coprecipitation of nahcolite (NaHCO3) and halite (NaCl)
> from surface waters in contact with the atmosphere
> indicates [CO2]atm > 1125 ppm (four times preindustrial
> concentrations), which confirms that high [CO2]atm
> coincided with Eocene warmth. ''
>
> Department of Geological Sciences and Environmental
> Studies, State University of New York at Binghamton,
> Binghamton, NY 13902, USA.
>
> * To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail:
> lowenst{at}binghamton.edu
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 21:32:53 2006
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: 
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:23:06 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  John Steck's message of Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:31:50
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>My money is on pole flip and the resulting inductive heating of the planet
>core as flux lines are forced out of alignment with the sun's polarity...
>but hey, that's just me.

Note that the polarity of the Sun's own magnetic field flips every
11 (22?) years, so this isn't likely to be the cause.

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 19 22:22:49 2006
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:22:32 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Kim's nuke
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	 <FDEHJPJPEPJCEDKMMINLKEBICBAA.svj orionworks.com>
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On 10/18/06, OrionWorks <svj orionworks.com> wrote:

> I bet there is a movie worth making here!

It's already been done, "Team America".  :-)

Terry

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Subject: [Vo]: Unstoppable Global Warming
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Michael Medved interviewed Dennis Avery, coauthor with D Fred Singer of 
Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 years. According to Mr. Avery, 
warming is a natural process, and a good thing.
 http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Global-Warming-Every-Years/dp/0742551172/sr=8-6/qid=1161280180/ref=sr_1_6/102-2022703-4336931?ie=UTF8&s=books


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: Future Speed Freaks?
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Hey ex-hot-rodders .... in your wildest dreams can you imagine an 
affordable 1,500 Horsepower engine --- for your car, skycar, or 
... err  bicycle?

Possible - yes - as this one pictured below only weighs-in at 35 
pounds and can be mass produced. It is a reality now; but there is 
a catch-22 (isn't there always?) ... since it is not exactly 
practical, given present commercial and political realities... or 
should I say not practical yet .... since most of the present 
impracticality could be related to the shortsighted horizons of 
... well, let's don't go there today.

Here is a pic of the simple engine, which could cost less than 
$1000 in mass production:
http://www.swissrocketman.com/images_gtre/41.gif

BTW such an engine (and wouldn't Mr. Moller love to have access to 
these):
http://www.moller.com/skycar/

is only possible using a liquid mono-propellant, such as a 
peroxide-based fuel - and that is because any liquid 
monopropellant negates the need for compressing huge amounts of 
air... which is where most of the weight (and inefficiency is) 
with a traditional turbine - and negates the need for expensive 
high temperature alloy. It is not a heat engine. The Swiss 
rocketman uses commercial grade stainless steel - not cheap - but 
affordable, especially in mass production.

For comparison purposes, here is an earlier model of the famous 
Allison Turbine (from GM in better days) which powers most of the 
world's non-military helicopters, in its various incarnations.

http://www.avonaero.com/allison.htm

As you can see, this one develops only 317 HP and tips the scale 
at 136 pounds for a ratio of 2.3 (HP per pound of weight) ... 
whereas for comparison, the HOOH turbine is 1,500 HP and 36+ lbs 
for well over a ratio of 40. BTW a normal auto ICE has a ratio of 
only about .4 - which is fully one hundred times heavier for the 
same power. Most importantly, the Allison costs $100,000 minimum, 
due to the need for investment-cast "superalloy" blades (and the 
low volume production).

That monstrous weight and cost advantage is severely offset, as a 
practical matter, by the lesser energy content and 
non-availability of the monopropellant fuel - as approximately 
four times more is needed per shaft horsepower. Therefore, for 
anything longer than a twenty minute flight, the weight advantage 
of a lighter engine can lost. Still the Swiss rocketman puts on 
some impressive demos.

Actually it is surprising that only four times more is needed, 
since the comparative "heat content" is 13 times less - but that 
biomes relatively unimportant compared to other factors, since the 
HOOH engine is technically NOT a heat engine in the normal 
understanding of that term.

However, the large amount of propellant needed is not the 
end-of-story. There is the huge issue of cost - which includes 
both fuel cost and vehicle cost. And then there are political and 
commercial realities, which means that US citizens may never 
benefit from this alternative transportation concept - even the 
rich ones. Try buying peroxide these days in 5 gallon quantities.

OTOH ... as Bobby Z sez: "the times, they are a changin' "

In the "big picture" and in the "perfect world" of the near-future 
... circa 2010 and thereafter, perhaps the only real possibility 
for affordable personal air transportation vehicle, like the 
Moller-esque SkyCar might be the engine above - which is turning 
an electrical generator and powering 4-6 electric motors, driving 
tiltable fans.

So what if your sixty mile, 20 minute commute from the 'burbs (of 
Sebastopol ?) to the city, requires 120 gallons of monopropellant 
...

... since you made it all last night from water and air for about 
the grid-equivalent of 100 kWh, or the equivalent cost of two 
gallons of regular (in the year 2010) ... but since you are 
off-the-grid ... all cost is for the amortization of the 
mini-factory which makes the propellant... And I am assuming that 
the other breakthroughs [like the MPI generator or the LENR 
converter] have permitted you to go off-grid. OK maybe we better 
move this Sci-Fi timetable to 2020....

Hey.. then as now, there will still only be two kinds: the quick 
and the dead... ;-)

Jones

For non-word-freaks, the old (biblical) meaning of the word 
"quick" is "alive." The phrase has become, of course, the 
prototypical gunslingers-mantra of Oaters and drag-racers. But 
when a baby was first felt to move in a mother's womb, it was then 
considered to have come to life, in ancient reckoning- and this 
moment was called a "quickening" ... nowadays, your 
mostly-male-moralists prefer to call it the "second trimester" <g>


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Subject: [Vo]: OT: A short rant
Status: O
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I suppose it necessary to keep digging this stuff up.
Perhaps when enough of it is dug up people will
finally see the conceptual problems of modern physics
began long before modern quantum and relativity theory.
They began, in my estimation, when some PRINCIPLES of motion
championed by some 17 th century mechanical philosophers were
implicitly elevated in the second half of the 18 the century
to the level of DOCTRINE.

Harry

http://www.bookrags.com/Christiaan_Huygens

"Huygens's mechanistic tendencies are most evident in his studies of gravity
and light. His 1659 gravitational researches presupposed and built upon
Descartes's vortex theory‹gravity is caused by particles of subtle matter
swirling with great speed around Earth. Huygens maintained that vortex
particles have a tendency (conatus) to move away from Earth's center. In
realizing their conatus, vortex particles exert a force on ordinary
particles of matter through direct contact, which brings about in the latter
a conatus to move toward Earth's center. Thus, the centrifugal force of
vortex particles produces a centripetal force in ordinary matter. Fleeing
vortex particles are continually replaced, thus maintaining a constant
gravitational force.

Next, Huygens established the law of centrifugal force for uniform circular
motion as well as the similarity of the centrifugal and the gravitational
conatus. He also distinguished between quantitas materiae and weight, the
former being proportional to the space occupied by ordinary matter, while
the latter was treated as a gravitational effect proportional to quantitas
materiae. This is likely the earliest insight into the distinction between
mass and weight. Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of universal
gravitation because it required action-at-a-distance, his own mechanistic
account failed to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter
transferred centripetal conatus to ordinary matter."





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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Howdy Jones, A close peek at the "rocketman" makes me consider he has =
adapted the vortex air blaster theme to a turbine.. pretty neat.


http://www.swissrocketman.com/images_gtre/41.gif

Alas! the USA is rapidly losing it's capacity to produce anvanced =
technology products. Almost every consumer product is now made in China. =
That doesn't mean it can't be produced in the USA, it means the =
experience in daily production allows them to advance past our idleness =
to the point that they would need to send their tech people to the USA =
to make a product to meet their quality control standards. We have =
become a nation of wholesalers.
Richard

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000801c6f485$a7775080$4b037841 xptower>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Jones, A close peek at the "rocketman" makes me consider he =
has=20
adapted the vortex air blaster theme to a turbine.. pretty neat.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.swissrocketman.com/images_gtre/41.gif">http://www.swis=
srocketman.com/images_gtre/41.gif</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Alas! the USA is rapidly losing it's capacity to produce anvanced=20
technology products. Almost every consumer product is now made in China. =
That=20
doesn't mean it can't be produced in the USA, it means the experience in =
daily=20
production allows them to advance past our idleness to the point that =
they would=20
need to send their tech people to the USA to make a product to meet =
their=20
quality control standards. We have become a nation of wholesalers.</DIV>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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Harry Veeder wrote,

>Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of universal
gravitation because it required action-at-a-distance, his own =
mechanistic
account failed to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter
transferred centripetal conatus to ordinary matter."

Howdy Harry,

A further explanation is required to address the purpose and action of =
the " reverse vortex" present in a vortex. One of physics puzzling =
questions.

Richard



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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Harry Veeder wrote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of =
universal<BR>gravitation=20
because it required action-at-a-distance, his own mechanistic<BR>account =
failed=20
to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter<BR>transferred =
centripetal=20
conatus to ordinary matter."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Harry,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A further explanation is required to address the purpose and action =
of the=20
" reverse vortex" present in a&nbsp;vortex. One of physics puzzling=20
questions.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 20, 2006WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 10/20/2006 2:20:22 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 20, 2006WHAT'S NEW 
Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. EMPIRE: PRESIDENT BUSH APPROVES A NEW NATIONAL SPACE POLICY. 
 The change in the international political climate over the past
 decade is nowhere more evident than in a comparison of the new
 National Space Policy with the 1996 policy it replaces.  The old
 policy committed the U.S. to "greater levels of partnership and
 cooperation" with other nations to ensure the "continued use of
 outer space for peaceful purposes."  The new policy defines
 "peaceful purposes" as whatever U.S. defense and intelligence-
 related activities are deemed to be in the national interest. 
 "Freedom of action in space is as important to the United States
 as air power and sea power."  The first goal of the 1996 policy
 was to:"Enhance knowledge of the Earth, the solar system and the
 universe."  Now the first goal is to: "further U.S. national
 security, homeland security, and foreign policy objectives."

 2. CLONED?  WE WERE JUST GETTING USED TO "GENETICALLY MODIFIED." 
 According to Rick Weiss in the Washington Post, the Food an Drug
 Administration is about to approve the sale of meat and milk from
 cloned livestock.  The FDA is responsible only for the question
 of human safety.  Too much animal fat in the diet is dangerous,
 but no more so if it comes from clones.  If there is no rational
 downside to an innovation we can always count on religion to
 discover supernatural objections.  Some Jews, for example, worry
 that the Talmudic injunction against crossbreeding might forbid
 cloning, but a clone seems to go in the direction of species
 purity rather than a chimera.  Christians are more likely to see
 the sin of pride in cloning.  That is not unlike the Muslim
 concern that it might infringe on Allah's prerogative as creator,
 but maybe it's a gift from Allah instead.  Buddhists seem to
 think it's OK if the motive is to reduce suffering, but how do
 the souls get shared?  Hindus don't eat animals anyway.  

 3. STRING THEORY: STRINGING OUT THE SEARCH FOR A UNIFIED FIELD. 
 Brian Greene, Columbia physicist and author of the wildly popular 
 Elegant Universe, (Norton, 1999), wrote a very long and somewhat
 wistful op-ed in this morning's NY Times pleading for patience. 
 If it has not yet shown us the way to an experimental test of the
 concept so also no mathematical contradiction has been found in
 the mountain of calculations.  Meanwhile physics departments
 around the world have wagered scarce resources on a breakthrough.

 4. EDWARD TELLER'S GHOST: A NEW GENERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. 
 Our stockpile of 6,000 nuclear weapons is growing old.  Few who
 developed the first A-bomb are still alive.  A deranged dictator
 on steroids is testing bombs of his own.  The Bush plan?  We
 start all over: Build an entirely new nuclear weapons complex
 making thousands of Reliable Replacement Warheads, warheads so
 reliable they won't even need testing.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Subject: [Vo]: (VO) FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 20, 2006WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC
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Forward from Akira Kawasaki (aki ix.netcom.com)

> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 10/20/2006 2:20:22 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 20, 2006WHAT'S NEW 
Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. EMPIRE: PRESIDENT BUSH APPROVES A NEW NATIONAL SPACE POLICY. 
 The change in the international political climate over the past
 decade is nowhere more evident than in a comparison of the new
 National Space Policy with the 1996 policy it replaces.  The old
 policy committed the U.S. to "greater levels of partnership and
 cooperation" with other nations to ensure the "continued use of
 outer space for peaceful purposes."  The new policy defines
 "peaceful purposes" as whatever U.S. defense and intelligence-
 related activities are deemed to be in the national interest. 
 "Freedom of action in space is as important to the United States
 as air power and sea power."  The first goal of the 1996 policy
 was to:"Enhance knowledge of the Earth, the solar system and the
 universe."  Now the first goal is to: "further U.S. national
 security, homeland security, and foreign policy objectives."

 2. CLONED?  WE WERE JUST GETTING USED TO "GENETICALLY MODIFIED." 
 According to Rick Weiss in the Washington Post, the Food an Drug
 Administration is about to approve the sale of meat and milk from
 cloned livestock.  The FDA is responsible only for the question
 of human safety.  Too much animal fat in the diet is dangerous,
 but no more so if it comes from clones.  If there is no rational
 downside to an innovation we can always count on religion to
 discover supernatural objections.  Some Jews, for example, worry
 that the Talmudic injunction against crossbreeding might forbid
 cloning, but a clone seems to go in the direction of species
 purity rather than a chimera.  Christians are more likely to see
 the sin of pride in cloning.  That is not unlike the Muslim
 concern that it might infringe on Allah's prerogative as creator,
 but maybe it's a gift from Allah instead.  Buddhists seem to
 think it's OK if the motive is to reduce suffering, but how do
 the souls get shared?  Hindus don't eat animals anyway.  

 3. STRING THEORY: STRINGING OUT THE SEARCH FOR A UNIFIED FIELD. 
 Brian Greene, Columbia physicist and author of the wildly popular 
 Elegant Universe, (Norton, 1999), wrote a very long and somewhat
 wistful op-ed in this morning's NY Times pleading for patience. 
 If it has not yet shown us the way to an experimental test of the
 concept so also no mathematical contradiction has been found in
 the mountain of calculations.  Meanwhile physics departments
 around the world have wagered scarce resources on a breakthrough.

 4. EDWARD TELLER'S GHOST: A NEW GENERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. 
 Our stockpile of 6,000 nuclear weapons is growing old.  Few who
 developed the first A-bomb are still alive.  A deranged dictator
 on steroids is testing bombs of his own.  The Bush plan?  We
 start all over: Build an entirely new nuclear weapons complex
 making thousands of Reliable Replacement Warheads, warheads so
 reliable they won't even need testing.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 20 20:51:42 2006
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:57:58 -0400
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Future speed freaks
In-reply-to: <000d01c6f485$a8bb6940$4b037841 xptower>
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On Friday 20 October 2006 16:23, RC Macaulay wrote:
> Blank
> Howdy Jones, A close peek at the "rocketman" makes me consider he has
> adapted the vortex air blaster theme to a turbine.. pretty neat.
>
>
> http://www.swissrocketman.com/images_gtre/41.gif
>
> Alas! the USA is rapidly losing it's capacity to produce anvanced
> technology products. Almost every consumer product is now made in China.
> That doesn't mean it can't be produced in the USA, it means the experience
> in daily production allows them to advance past our idleness to the point
> that they would need to send their tech people to the USA to make a product
> to meet their quality control standards. We have become a nation of
> wholesalers. Richard

Oh, Indeed, like 'Reveal' who marketed multimedia products through Wal-Mart
stores in the early nineties.  Who remembers them?!  Middlemen are really 
transient nonenities that disappear as soon as ways can be found to bypass
them.  Reveal was buying electronic computer peripherals from a Taiwanese
company in Kaioushung and selling them  through Wal-Mart and other stores
here in the United States after rebranding them.  There was almost no value
really added by Reveal except to ship them here.  As a result, accessories
described in the manuals were totally unavailable from the real manufacturer, 
and Reveal did not live long enough to really deal with.  Evidently 
Wal-Mart's people found out who the real producers were and promptly tried
to cut Reveal out.  I think that there was some litigation but it came to 
nothing.  So the danger in becoming a nation of wholesalers is that we become
a nation of losers.  We lost the means of production to slave labor.  We never
really owned the means of production in the first place.  Corporations will go
where they can to make a buck and know no national loyalty whatsoever.  The
passage of 'free trade' legislation erased our borders, our tariffs, our 
independance, our freedom, and now is erasing our wealth and our jobs to a 
tide of foreign indigents invading even the smallest of our towns, working 
for nothing and regrettably so must we.  And all we have to show for it are
new laws allowing our own government to torture us in foreign countries
and hold secret trials in star chambers with no right to habeus corpus, 
confrontation of witnesses, statements of charges, no jury,  admissability]
of illegal and hearsay 'evidence'...just like the German 'enabling acts' of 
1934 under the third reich.
    We then lost the rights to produce our own stuff that we invented when Al 
Gore passed the DMCA back in the nineties to 'put us in the digital highway'.  
Even if we tried to start factories to produce televisions, for example, much 
of this product is tied up as so called 'intellectual property' and those 
ideas are 'owned' by foreigners.  We would be put out of business by our own 
police.     Little did we know in those prosperous times that those laws 
concieved in naivete would come back to haunt us, forcing us to become
vagrants and bindlestiffs on the 'digital highway' to free trade slavery.

Standing Bear

Sadly Richard is absolutely right.  We are throwing away our discoveries to
foreigners, and stifling our ingenuity through throttling higher education
opportunities to any but the rich and/or well connected.  This means less
likelyhood of our recovery even when we do come to our senses.  What
does it say about a society when the largest section of the yellow pages of
any town's directory is 'attornies'?

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Subject: [Vo]: Kim's Nuke
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Art Bell was just talking about Kim's apology. He quipped that when it 
comes to nuclear detonations, sorry just doesn't cut it. This tickled my 
funny bone.

IMHO, the Chinese leaned on him. I doubt that he's out of booze, and 
pornographic tapes, while not for ever, will last a long time.


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RC Macaulay wrote:

>  
> Harry Veeder wrote,
>  
> >Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of universal
> gravitation because it required action-at-a-distance, his own mechanistic
> account failed to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter
> transferred centripetal conatus to ordinary matter."
>  
> Howdy Harry,
>  
> A further explanation is required to address the purpose and action of 
> the " reverse vortex" present in a vortex. One of physics puzzling 
> questions.


Have you read any Russell? His model has vortexes, centripetal, center 
seaking and centitifugal that expand.


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Blank> Harry Veeder wrote,
> =20
> >Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of universal
> gravitation because it required action-at-a-distance, his own =
mechanistic
> account failed to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter
> transferred centripetal conatus to ordinary matter."
> =20
Richard wrote,
> =20
> A further explanation is required to address the purpose and action of =

> the " reverse vortex" present in a vortex. One of physics puzzling=20
> questions.


Thomas wrote,

Have you read any Russell? His model has vortexes, centripetal, center=20
seaking and centitifugal that expand.

Howdy Thomas,

Technically, the reverse vortex is not fully covered by Russell. =
Consider the granddaddy of all earthly observable vortex.. the gulf of =
Mexico style hurricane. The sustained eyewall  may exceed 60 miles =
diameter. A counterforce must exist.The low pressure formed in the eye =
cannot reconcile with the surrounding forces produced. The assumption =
that an unmeasurable "electro-magnetic event" takes place above, below =
or globally opposite the eye has been offered. That thought would in =
turn produce congecture that a spinning top must have a corresponding =
unseen energy balance opposite. hmmm!! Such conjecture, not taken to =
extreme ( tongue in cheek), may in turn offer some insight into why LENR =
is so extremely difficult to reproduce. We may be looking for the =
resultant in the wrong place.=20

Richard

Richard



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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000d01c6f50f$ffb00c80$15027841 xptower>
<DIV>&gt; Harry Veeder wrote,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;Though Huygens =
rejected=20
Newton's theory of universal<BR>&gt; gravitation because it required=20
action-at-a-distance, his own mechanistic<BR>&gt; account failed to =
explain=20
satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter<BR>&gt; transferred =
centripetal=20
conatus to ordinary matter."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>Richard =
wrote,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&gt; A further explanation is required to address the purpose and =
action of=20
<BR>&gt; the " reverse vortex" present in a vortex. One of physics =
puzzling=20
<BR>&gt; questions.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thomas wrote,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Have you read any Russell? His model has vortexes, centripetal, =
center=20
<BR>seaking and centitifugal that expand.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Thomas,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Technically, the reverse vortex is not fully covered by Russell. =
Consider=20
the granddaddy of all earthly observable vortex.. the gulf of Mexico =
style=20
hurricane. The sustained eyewall&nbsp; may exceed 60 miles diameter.=20
A&nbsp;counterforce must exist.The low pressure formed in the eye cannot =

reconcile with the surrounding forces produced. The assumption that an=20
unmeasurable&nbsp;"electro-magnetic event" takes place above, below or =
globally=20
opposite the eye has been offered. That thought would in turn produce =
congecture=20
that a spinning top must have a corresponding unseen energy balance =
opposite.=20
hmmm!! Such conjecture, not taken to extreme ( tongue in cheek), may in =
turn=20
offer some insight into why LENR is so extremely difficult to reproduce. =
We may=20
be looking for the resultant in the wrong place. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From: "RC Macaulay" <walhalla cvtv.net>
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BlankHowdy Vorts,

Ever look at things like a kid and simply stare. They see it but don't, =
because that's not what they are looking for.
We are looking at the next war that actually started around year 1990 =
via computer. An information war.A cyber war.This war is evolving as new =
weapons are developed, We have entered the " blog" phase. The next phase =
can be " denial of service" which in turn will be overcome by the demand =
for armored internet services via the next version of wifi and in turn =
by satellite.hmmm!

Since all battles are won and lost in the mind before the fight starts. =
We need to cast a cautious eye on what the fed is planning for =
"satellite protection and space measures".=20
Ever get the idea that there is somebody out there a whole lot smarter =
than realized.. and they may be inside the beltway and not elsewhere?

Richard 
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charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
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Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000301c6f513$3ec83610$a6037841 xptower>
<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ever look at things like a kid and simply stare. They see it but=20
don't,&nbsp;because that's not what they are looking for.</DIV>
<DIV>We are looking at the next war that actually started around year =
1990 via=20
computer. An information war.A cyber war.This war is evolving as new =
weapons are=20
developed, We have entered the " blog" phase. The next phase can be " =
denial of=20
service" which in turn will be overcome by the demand for armored =
internet=20
services via the next version of wifi and in turn by =
satellite.hmmm!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Since all battles are won and lost in the mind before the fight=20
starts.&nbsp;We need to cast a cautious eye on what the fed is planning =
for=20
"satellite protection and space measures". </DIV>
<DIV>Ever get the idea that there is somebody out there a whole lot =
smarter than=20
realized.. and they may be inside the&nbsp;beltway and =
not&nbsp;elsewhere?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 21 10:50:44 2006
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should the net ever truly become a war ground, it will return to the
original field of battle, as it was in the late 80s (this war is older
than you think)  and it will compartmentalize.  connections will e
through central nodes, like the bbs'es of old. there are already
people working on teh ability to piggyback existing infrastructure,
ie, cable and dsl, to make such off the grid nodes, and the new forms
of cells that hook directly to your computer to be a net gateway will
allow cellular bbs.

On 10/21/06, RC Macaulay <walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:
>
> Howdy Vorts,
>
> Ever look at things like a kid and simply stare. They see it but don't,
> because that's not what they are looking for.
> We are looking at the next war that actually started around year 1990 via
> computer. An information war.A cyber war.This war is evolving as new weapons
> are developed, We have entered the " blog" phase. The next phase can be "
> denial of service" which in turn will be overcome by the demand for armored
> internet services via the next version of wifi and in turn by
> satellite.hmmm!
>
> Since all battles are won and lost in the mind before the fight starts. We
> need to cast a cautious eye on what the fed is planning for "satellite
> protection and space measures".
> Ever get the idea that there is somebody out there a whole lot smarter than
> realized.. and they may be inside the beltway and not elsewhere?
>
> Richard


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Subject: [Vo]: Taleyarkhan / Bubble fusion update
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News Flash - Purdue University's Tsoukalas Resigns
Monday, October 16, 2006   19:35:08 PDT 

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2081


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Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: A short rant
References: <001201c6f510$006c0980$15027841 xptower>
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RC Macaulay wrote:

> > Harry Veeder wrote,
> > 
> > >Though Huygens rejected Newton's theory of universal
> > gravitation because it required action-at-a-distance, his own 
> mechanistic
> > account failed to explain satisfactorily how subtle vortical-matter
> > transferred centripetal conatus to ordinary matter."
> > 
> Richard wrote,
> > 
> > A further explanation is required to address the purpose and action of
> > the " reverse vortex" present in a vortex. One of physics puzzling
> > questions.
>
> Thomas wrote,
>
> Have you read any Russell? His model has vortexes, centripetal, 
> center  seaking and centitifugal that expand.
>  
> Howdy Thomas,
>  
> Technically, the reverse vortex is not fully covered by Russell. 
> Consider the granddaddy of all earthly observable vortex.. the gulf of 
> Mexico style hurricane. The sustained eyewall  may exceed 60 miles 
> diameter. A counterforce must exist.The low pressure formed in the eye 
> cannot reconcile with the surrounding forces produced. The assumption 
> that an unmeasurable "electro-magnetic event" takes place above, below 
> or globally opposite the eye has been offered. That thought would in 
> turn produce congecture that a spinning top must have a corresponding 
> unseen energy balance opposite. hmmm!! Such conjecture, not taken to 
> extreme ( tongue in cheek), may in turn offer some insight into why 
> LENR is so extremely difficult to reproduce. We may be looking for the 
> resultant in the wrong place.


Interesting comment Richard, Did you notice my post on the Respine? I'd 
love to build one, so would the man who posted the vortex website. 
Unfortunately, machines cost money, machines with a history of exploding 
cost even more money. Does anyone know if the upper clouds in a 
hurricane resemble the proposed Respine? Also does the observed energy 
from a hurricane exceed the input energy? It is a conductive material, 
water and salt moving in a magnetic field.




--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: C2C guest tonight
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On C2C-AM tonight a writer and philosopher Stephan A.
Schwartz will discuss his latest work researching how
consciousness affects the structure of water.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/info/wheretolisten.html

Paul Lowrance

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: The Vacuum ICE
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In the history of Railroad Steam Locomotives, up until the advent 
of better grades of steel, an unusual design was employed to 
convert steam pressure into torque. And when the aim is moving any 
vehicle, "torque" at the drive wheels is really all that matters. 
Some of those old locomotives could pull half a million pounds 
with less than a hundred real horsepower, it is said - because 
they had sufficient torque.

And, yes, the two measures are interchangeable to an extent - on 
paper - but try using your 200 HP car to pull a train. The low 
steam pressure locomotive is still being used in parts of Asia 
today. Big polluter but a "sunk cost" as they say in the Raj. 
Since only about a hundred psi - up to a few hundred - was 
feasible for steam pressure in the old boilers, very large 
cylinders were used to convert the low pressure steam to torque.

Anyway the main point for what follows is that a significant 
contribution to the net torque which was attainable - was from the 
"vacuum" on the exhaust stroke. And we are not talking ZPE here 
but real vacuum created on the exhaust stroke, due to condensation 
of steam against the large bore cylinder. Atmospheric pressure 
being ~14.7 psi at sea level is potentially "free" as your power 
stroke must displace that much "space" it to begin with. This 
vacuum can provide as much as several thousand ft-lbs of torque 
alone, with a sufficiently large bore, but vacuum is (more or 
less) always underutilized in modern engine design; nevertheless 
it is there - free for the taking (although of little benefit 
without huge pistons/cylinders).

However, fast-forward a century - and the thought just occurred - 
than in a modern context of using a very larger bore aluminum 
cylinder in a modern auto, a kind of steam/vacuum engine is once 
again feasible; in which the free vacuum contributes as much of 
the end torque as does the expansion phase. A perfect balance is 
actually desirable.

This is a "green" concept, only an hour old, so maybe I am missing 
something. If so, forgive the wasted bandwidth.

BTW, you may have already guessed from prior postings about 
various aspects of a current alternative-energy "obsession" - that 
this type of engine is only feasible using a certain kind of 
liquid propellant to generate the steam by internal explosion, and 
not using a boiler, nor regular combustion (CO2 will not condense, 
needless to say).

Let me see if I can paint a verbal image of this.

First - for a lightweight auto needing about 200 ft-lbs or torque 
and assuming that the vacuum would only be partial (some residual 
steam) so that the vacuum itself will give us (in round numbers) ~ 
10 psi to work with - then if one wishes to balance that with 
about 25 psi net on the power stroke (mid stroke) - for a 50/50 
split between the two sources of effective torque - then this 
constraint basically sets most of the necessary parameters. And it 
looks extremely promising at first glance.

Here is just how strange this beast might appear to one accustomed 
to only gasoline or diesel engines. I suppose that not many Vo's 
other than John Steck have been involved in ICE design as a 
profession, but even so, you probably know the terms: 
"displacement" and "bore/stroke ratio".

Used to be, a ~ 300 cu.in. displacement ICE - or roughly 5 liter - 
was considered desirable for an American car, but in a 
vacuum-assisted steam ICE (notice that it is an ICE and not an 
ECE), and with even less torque but a lighter vehicle, you are 
going to need perhaps 1,200 ci or 20 liters displacement - and to 
make things even weirder, instead of a "square" bore-to-stroke 
ratio (i.e. one-to-one) this one will probably have an 
unbelievably oversquare ratio of perhaps 10-1 ! This consideration 
has been optimized in order to present a very large surface area 
for the vacuum to pull against - but yet still to allow for fairly 
decent RPMs (300 RPM ?)

Imagine a two cylinder, 2-cycle engine - with each cylinder having 
a bore of 20 inches and a stroke of only ~2 inches. It is 
lightweight, heavily finned, die-cast aluminum and operates at 
only 150 F. The outward appearance is mostly that of a gigantic 
cylinder head, below which sits a very compact remainder of an 
engine, but it will still easily fit under the hood. It burns 50% 
(mid grade) peroxide with hydrogen gas, both direct injected, and 
gives **only** condensed steam (hot water) in the exhaust - 
nothing else. ZERO emissions. More on that later. It uses plenty 
of peroxide but very little hydrogen (17 to one ratio by molecular 
weight).

At TDC there is zero effective gap between the piston crown and 
the cylinder *except* for a small spherical combustion chamber, of 
about 2 inches in diameter, centered. The piston crown is not flat 
but conical, except for the "dimple" of the hemispherical half of 
the combustion chamber. There is NO intake manifold and no "real" 
exhaust manifold, although there is means of removing condensed 
surface water using gravity and microchannels around a hydrophilic 
cylinder wall. The Carnot efficiency, based on hydrogen alone 
(which introduces an error) is around 150%. That's still not real 
overunity however, because of the peroxide requirement. But it is 
very enticing as a goal.

Normally these parameters would be impossible, of course. But this 
is not your father's ICE (closer to your grandfather's locomotive 
<g>) and the ironic thing is that we are getting half the energy 
from "the vacuum" but not the mystical and exotic ZPE vacuum - 
just the garden-variety interplanetary one.

More later.

Jones


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BlankJones wrote,

Some of those old locomotives could pull half a million pounds=20
with less than a hundred real horsepower, it is said - because=20
they had sufficient torque.

Howdy Jones,

My ole boss used to say, horsepower is horsehockey, torque is what a =
mule has in his rear.

Ah! Steam locomotives... brought back memories of mid January 1946, war =
over, arrived at Camp Schmacher outside Berkeley, caught the east bound =
continental out that night , passed Sacramento steaming up the Donner =
grade and BLAM! near snowbound waiting for daylight and plows to clear =
the tracks. Thats when I saw an example of pure, raw horsepower.. at =
first dawn, UP connected two mountain locomotives to pull the 40 car =
troop train up across the pass heading to Reno.
As the tracks curved around the steep grade, you could see the two =
locomotives " chugging" away at a speed of just above walking.. it was =
after nightfall before we reached Reno.
That's real Hoss power.

Back to reality... much of our work is vacuum inducting feeding of =
chemicals... strange experiences occur when working with vacuum. There =
has been a lack of research in the vacuum arena until NASA .

Richard




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<DIV>Jones wrote,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some of those old locomotives could pull half a million pounds =
<BR>with=20
less than a hundred real horsepower, it is said - because <BR>they had=20
sufficient torque.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Jones,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My ole boss used to say, horsepower is horsehockey, torque is what =
a mule=20
has in his rear.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ah! Steam locomotives... brought back memories of mid January 1946, =
war=20
over,&nbsp;arrived at&nbsp;Camp Schmacher outside Berkeley, caught the =
east=20
bound continental out that night , passed Sacramento steaming up the =
Donner=20
grade and BLAM! near snowbound waiting for daylight and plows to clear =
the=20
tracks. Thats when I saw an example of pure, raw horsepower.. at first =
dawn, UP=20
connected two mountain locomotives to pull the 40 car troop train up =
across the=20
pass heading to Reno.</DIV>
<DIV>As the tracks curved around the steep grade, you could see the two=20
locomotives " chugging" away at a speed of just above walking.. it was =
after=20
nightfall before we reached Reno.</DIV>
<DIV>That's real Hoss power.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Back to reality... much of our work is vacuum inducting feeding of=20
chemicals... strange experiences occur when working with vacuum. There =
has been=20
a lack of research in the vacuum arena until NASA .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR><BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 23 01:07:38 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Exhaust  Gas Stack Effect Turbine
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Why not use one of these to scavenge the hot exhaust gases
of a gas turbine or such?  A 5,000 hp jet engine like the ones
used off a C-130 aircraft for burning sawdust (~3.0 megawatt generator) produce about
36 pounds per second of about 1,800 degree Fahrenheit exhaust gases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

A bit too tall for working off the tailpipe of your SUV?

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Why not use one of these to scavenge the hot exhaust gases</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of a gas turbine or such?&nbsp; A 5,000 hp jet engine like the ones</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>used off a C-130 aircraft for burning sawdust (~3.0 megawatt generator) produce about</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>36 pounds per second of about 1,800 degree Fahrenheit </FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>exhaust gases.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>A bit too tall for working off the tailpipe of your SUV?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Never try to outdo a Texan. They certainly have the hot air supply.

Bush, and Jones Beene's ancestral heritage country. :-)

"In the heart of the nation's leading oil province, Monahans (Texas) officials and residents are hoping to land a major renewable energy project."
If located at Monahans, the solar tower -- also known as a solar chimney -- would be, at 3,000 feet tall, the largest manmade structure in the world and generate 200 megawatts of green electricity, enough to power 200,000 homes. 
"As an oilfield community, we've been in the energy industry all our lives," said Gene Brown, president of the Monahans Chamber of Commerce and consultant to the Monahans Economic Development Corporation. "We want to be on the cutting edge of the next energy boom." 
Chris Davey of SolarMission Technologies, the U.S. company that is a major stockholder in EnviroMission Ltd., the Australian developers of the tower, said the project operates on the basic rule of physics that holds that hot air rises. 
The project will be built at a cost of $350 million and create over 2,000 jobs during construction and create business for numerous local vendors, especially concrete vendors, Brown said. 
"While that's good for Monahans, it's also good for the Permian Basin," he said. "It will create over 2,000 construction jobs and we'll be able to put a lot of people to work." 
He said there is no doubt the project will draw workers from surrounding areas like Midland, Odessa, Kermit and Andrews. 
"The most important thing," Brown continued, "is that for years and years things we've viewed as a disaster -- our population declining, losing school population, may actually be a positive. Our schools can absorb the influx of students, our infrastructure -- housing, sewer, police -- won't be stretched thin by the influx of new workers." 
Davey acknowledged that it was Monahans' available infrastructure, as well as its experience in the energy industry, with a plentiful supply of the engineers, geologists, machinists and welders needed for the project that has SolarMission looking at West Texas. 
At the present, Davey said, preliminary feasibility studies are being conducted over the next six months, followed by another 18 months of putting together the financing, environmental impact studies and getting government approvals before construction actually begins. 
There is a chance, if the first tower is a success, that up to four could be built, Davey said, and the costs of construction would decline with subsequent projects. 
If additional towers are built, Brown said, construction jobs would last seven to 10 years and there would be 15 to 20 permanent jobs afterwards to operate the towers. Indeed, he said, neighboring communities are pledging their help in securing the tower. 
Davey noted that the impact of the tower would be felt beyond its contribution to the electric power grid or to developing renewable energy. He cited tourism as an example, noting that tourists would be drawn to the world's tallest manmade structure. To accommodate tourists, he said observation decks would be built at 1,500 feet and at 3,000 feet. 
This, said Brown, "is a chance for Midland and Odessa, Monahans and Pecos to get together and discuss tourism packages, putting together tour groups that would come to the Petroleum Museum in Midland, the Presidential Museum in Odessa, the meteor crater, the solar tower, the Monahans Sandhills, and the Judge Roy Bean office in Pecos. Once we get the tower, that might be our next big project. Once a tourist comes to see the sights, they might want to stay and play golf or go to a cookout on a ranch. We need to find ways to make it worth their time to spend three or four days in West Texas." 
The German-designed technology, licensed by SolarMission, operates like this: 
A "greenhouse" of transparent material two-and-a-half to three miles in diameter will collect hot air, which will flow through 32 turbines situated around the base of the concrete tower. The difference in temperature between the interior of the collector and the tower and ambient temperature will provide a constant source of uplift of heated air, generating power. 
Unlike other renewable power sources such as wind, hydro or solar, Davey pointed out, the solar tower is not dependent on sunny days or wind speeds. 
"We are a large-scale power generator and can guarantee delivery of power," Davey said. "We can deliver power on demand" just like the natural gas-fired electrical power generation plant in Odessa. 
West Texas, with its solar radiation, access to a power grid and flat terrain, makes it a prime candidate for the first solar tower in the United States. Other candidates are sites in Arizona and Nevada. 
But Davey said Texas' mandate that a percentage of electricity be generated by renewable sources, tax incentives and the community's support for the project are weighing in West Texas' favor. 
"This is a conducive climate to renewable energy," Davey said. 
The technology has been successfully proven with a small-scale plant in Spain. The key to success, Davey said, is being able to provide the power at a cost competitive with power generated by natural gas, coal or fuel oil-powered plants. Power generated by the solar tower, he said, will be a bit more costly but should be "in the ballpark." 
While the jobs created, the $350 million investment and the contribution to renewable energy is important, Brown also has a typically Texan reason for wanting the solar tower built in Texas: 
"We want Texas to be the first," he said. "If it's going to be the biggest manmade structure in the world, we want it to be in Texas."


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 10/23/2006 2:07:12 AM 
Subject: Re: Exhaust Gas Stack Effect Turbine


Why not use one of these to scavenge the hot exhaust gases
of a gas turbine or such?  A 5,000 hp jet engine like the ones
used off a C-130 aircraft for burning sawdust (~3.0 megawatt generator) produce about
36 pounds per second of about 1,800 degree Fahrenheit exhaust gases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

A bit too tall for working off the tailpipe of your SUV?

Fred
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<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Never try to outdo a Texan. They certainly have the hot air supply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Bush, and Jones Beene's ancestral heritage country. :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>"In the heart of the nation's leading oil province, Monahans (Texas) officials and residents are hoping to land a major renewable energy project."</FONT></DIV>
<P>
<P><FONT size=3>If located at Monahans, the solar tower -- also known as a solar chimney -- would be, at 3,000 feet tall, the largest manmade structure in the world and generate 200 megawatts of green electricity, enough to power 200,000 homes. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"As an oilfield community, we've been in the energy industry all our lives," said Gene Brown, president of the Monahans Chamber of Commerce and consultant to the Monahans Economic Development Corporation. "We want to be on the cutting edge of the next energy boom." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>Chris Davey of SolarMission Technologies, the U.S. company that is a major stockholder in EnviroMission Ltd., the Australian developers of the tower, said the project operates on the basic rule of physics that holds that hot air rises. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>The project will be built at a cost of $350 million and create over 2,000 jobs during construction and create business for numerous local vendors, especially concrete vendors, Brown said. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"While that's good for Monahans, it's also good for the Permian Basin," he said. "It will create over 2,000 construction jobs and we'll be able to put a lot of people to work." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>He said there is no doubt the project will draw workers from surrounding areas like Midland, Odessa, Kermit and Andrews. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"The most important thing," Brown continued, "is that for years and years things we've viewed as a disaster -- our population declining, losing school population, may actually be a positive. Our schools can absorb the influx of students, our infrastructure -- housing, sewer, police -- won't be stretched thin by the influx of new workers." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>Davey acknowledged that it was Monahans' available infrastructure, as well as its experience in the energy industry, with a plentiful supply of the engineers, geologists, machinists and welders needed for the project that has SolarMission looking at West Texas. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>At the present, Davey said, preliminary feasibility studies are being conducted over the next six months, followed by another 18 months of putting together the financing, environmental impact studies and getting government approvals before construction actually begins. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>There is a chance, if the first tower is a success, that up to four could be built, Davey said, and the costs of construction would decline with subsequent projects. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>If additional towers are built, Brown said, construction jobs would last seven to 10 years and there would be 15 to 20 permanent jobs afterwards to operate the towers. Indeed, he said, neighboring communities are pledging their help in securing the tower. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>Davey noted that the impact of the tower would be felt beyond its contribution to the electric power grid or to developing renewable energy. He cited tourism as an example, noting that tourists would be drawn to the world's tallest manmade structure. To accommodate tourists, he said observation decks would be built at 1,500 feet and at 3,000 feet. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>This, said Brown, "is a chance for Midland and Odessa, Monahans and Pecos to get together and discuss tourism packages, putting together tour groups that would come to the Petroleum Museum in Midland, the Presidential Museum in Odessa, the meteor crater, the solar tower, the Monahans Sandhills, and the Judge Roy Bean office in Pecos. Once we get the tower, that might be our next big project. Once a tourist comes to see the sights, they might want to stay and play golf or go to a cookout on a ranch. We need to find ways to make it worth their time to spend three or four days in West Texas." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>The German-designed technology, licensed by SolarMission, operates like this: </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>A "greenhouse" of transparent material two-and-a-half to three miles in diameter will collect hot air, which will flow through 32 turbines situated around the base of the concrete tower. The difference in temperature between the interior of the collector and the tower and ambient temperature will provide a constant source of uplift of heated air, generating power. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>Unlike other renewable power sources such as wind, hydro or solar, Davey pointed out, the solar tower is not dependent on sunny days or wind speeds. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"We are a large-scale power generator and can guarantee delivery of power," Davey said. "We can deliver power on demand" just like the natural gas-fired electrical power generation plant in Odessa. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>West Texas, with its solar radiation, access to a power grid and flat terrain, makes it a prime candidate for the first solar tower in the United States. Other candidates are sites in Arizona and Nevada. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>But Davey said Texas' mandate that a percentage of electricity be generated by renewable sources, tax incentives and the community's support for the project are weighing in West Texas' favor. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"This is a conducive climate to renewable energy," Davey said. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>The technology has been successfully proven with a small-scale plant in Spain. The key to success, Davey said, is being able to provide the power at a cost competitive with power generated by natural gas, coal or fuel oil-powered plants. Power generated by the solar tower, he said, will be a bit more costly but should be "in the ballpark." </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>While the jobs created, the $350 million investment and the contribution to renewable energy is important, Brown also has a typically Texan reason for wanting the solar tower built in Texas: </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=+0></FONT>
<P><FONT size=+0>"We want Texas to be the first," he said. "If it's going to be the biggest manmade structure in the world, we want it to be in Texas."</FONT></P>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 10/23/2006 2:07:12 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Exhaust Gas Stack Effect Turbine</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Why not use one of these to scavenge the hot exhaust gases</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>of a gas turbine or such?&nbsp; A 5,000 hp jet engine like the ones</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>used off a C-130 aircraft for burning sawdust (~3.0 megawatt generator) produce about</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>36 pounds per second of about 1,800 degree Fahrenheit </FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>exhaust gases.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>A bit too tall for working off the tailpipe of your SUV?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 23 05:34:45 2006
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BlankFred wrote,

Never try to outdo a Texan. They certainly have the hot air supply.

Bush, and Jones Beene's ancestral heritage country. :-)

"In the heart of the nation's leading oil province, Monahans (Texas) =
officials and residents are hoping to land a major renewable energy =
project."

If located at Monahans, the solar tower -- also known as a solar chimney =
-- would be, at 3,000 feet tall, the largest manmade structure in the =
world and generate 200 megawatts of green electricity, enough to power =
200,000 homes

Howdy Fred,

Shucks Fred, they may pull it off. That is the financing and tax =
benefits. Our Gov. Rick Perry has a little package of "freebees" for =
stuff like this chimney.. that is if he survives the next election. Boy =
wonder slid into office on Guv. Bush coattails and has hung around =
performing wonders with numbers while eating cucumbers. He put a =
backdoor deal together with Cintra of Spain  for a 180 billion dollar =
TransTx Corridor highway to make sure the illegals and WalMart had a =
superhighway between Mexico and Canada ready for the next phase of the =
new world order.

Worked right, this tower could be named after the retiring Prez... let's =
see .. hmmm. we could call it.. "blowin smoke up" or something =
commerative.

Technology wise, the darn thing makes sense on paper.. but...if it =
don't.. well. wez really gonna have sumtin' to chuckle about..which is =
what Texans are best at.. laughing at themselves.

Richard ,

  we don wanna hab anythin like this around Dime Box Texas

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Fred wrote,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Never try to outdo a Texan. They certainly have the =
hot air=20
supply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Bush, and Jones Beene's ancestral heritage country.=20
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>"In the heart of the nation's leading oil province, =
Monahans=20
(Texas) officials and residents are hoping to land a major renewable =
energy=20
project."</FONT></DIV>
<P>
<P><FONT size=3D3>If located at Monahans, the solar tower -- also known =
as a solar=20
chimney -- would be, at 3,000 feet tall, the largest manmade structure =
in the=20
world and generate 200 megawatts of green electricity, enough to power =
200,000=20
homes</FONT></P></DIV>
<P>Howdy Fred,</P>
<P>Shucks Fred, they may pull it off. That is the financing and tax =
benefits.=20
Our Gov. Rick Perry has a little package of "freebees" for stuff like =
this=20
chimney.. that is if he survives the next election. Boy wonder slid into =
office=20
on Guv. Bush coattails and has hung around performing wonders with =
numbers while=20
eating cucumbers. He put a backdoor deal together with Cintra of =
Spain&nbsp; for=20
a 180 billion dollar TransTx Corridor highway to make sure the illegals =
and=20
WalMart had a superhighway between Mexico and Canada ready for the next =
phase of=20
the new world order.</P>
<P>Worked right, this tower&nbsp;could be named after the retiring =
Prez... let's=20
see .. hmmm. we could call it.. "blowin smoke up" or something =
commerative.</P>
<P>Technology wise, the darn thing makes sense on paper.. but...if it =
don't..=20
well. wez really gonna have sumtin' to chuckle about..which is what =
Texans are=20
best at.. laughing at themselves.</P>
<P>Richard&nbsp;,</P>
<P>&nbsp; we don wanna hab anythin like this around Dime Box=20
Texas</P></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: [Vo]: UPI: Steve Jones quits
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sept. 11 doubter to retire from BYU

PROVO, Utah, Oct. 22 (UPI) -- Brigham Young University in Utah has 
finalized a retirement package with the professor who claimed bombs 
brought down the World Trade Center towers in 2001.

Physics Professor Steven Jones is due to retire Jan. 1, after BYU 
placed him on paid leave to review his research paper on the Sept. 
11, 2001, terror attacks, the Deseret (Utah) Morning News said. 
Neither side released details of the package.

In his paper, Jones said experiments he conducted on material from 
ground zero and other evidence led him to believe three complex 
towers fell because pre-set explosives detonated throughout the 
buildings after the hijacked jets struck the Twin Towers, the Morning 
News said.

Once the retirement agreement was reached, the Provo university 
stopped its review, the newspaper said.

Jones submitted a letter to the Morning News, criticizing the Iraqi 
war and questioning the official explanations of the towers' 
collapse. He also expressed concern that any future attacks may be 
blamed on Iran or Syria to justify U.S. actions against those 
nations, the newspaper said.

Scholars for 9/11 Truth, co-founded by Jones, has collected 2,924 of 
the 10,000 signatures it wants on a petition supporting Jones to send 
to the BYU president.


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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:46:35 +1000
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Status: O
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 23 Oct 2006
02:32:13 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>generate 200 megawatts of green electricity, enough to power 200,000 homes. 

That 200 megawatts is probably "name plate" i.e. maximum power
output. Assuming there is never a cloud in the sky, a more
realistic figure is 1/4 of that on average. IOW the real
continuous power output is likely to be nearer to 50 MW.
(Unless this has already been taken into account, and the maximum
is actually 800 MW).
(Pi x r^2)/(4 x Pi x r^2) = 1/4 x 1 kW/m^2 = 250 W /m^2 average
continuous power flux across the surface of the Earth. Near the
tropics of course, it is somewhat better, but always less than
1/2.
[snip]
>The project will be built at a cost of $350 million and create over 2,000 

At 50 MW, that would be $7/Watt, which is definitely on the high
side, and that's assuming that they can actually get such a huge
structure built for a mere $350 million.
Of course, if it really is 200 MW, and gets built on budget, then
it's only $1.75 / Watt, which is quite competitive, especially
taking into consideration that thereafter, the fuel is free.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 23 16:00:55 2006
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:15:24 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: Stealthy Cloak
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm

Experts create invisibility cloak
By Paul Rincon
Science reporter, BBC News

A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of
invisibility in the laboratory.

The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests
at Duke University, North Carolina.

It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring
them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space.

<more>

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From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: Neuron of G-d
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Bizarre comparison:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/14/science/20060815_SCILL_GRAPHIC.html

http://tinyurl.com/phpp7

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:43:21 -0700
From: OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Neuron of G-d
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>From Terry
> Bizarre comparison:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/14/science/20060815_SCILL_GRAPHIC.html
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/phpp7

Kool!

I'm reminded of a party scene in the classic movie "Animal House" where college freshman "Otter", under the influence of cannabis, is having his imagination temporarily -stretched- in the midst of a conversation with his English profession, played by an equally stoned Donald Sutherland.

"You mean all the atoms in my body are made up of electrons spinning around a nucleus," Otter exclaims "just like a miniature solar system?"

Suddenly, Otter grasps the implications, "Wow!"

Well, you had to remember the scene. ;-)

Thanks, Terry!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "OrionWorks" <orionworks charter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Neuron of G-d


> I'm reminded of a party scene in the classic movie "Animal House" where 
> college freshman "Otter", under the influence of cannabis, is having his 
> imagination
> temporarily -stretched- in the midst of a conversation with his English 
> profession, played by an equally stoned Donald Sutherland.
>
> "You mean all the atoms in my body are made up of electrons spinning 
> around a nucleus," Otter exclaims "just like a miniature solar system?"
>
> Suddenly, Otter grasps the implications, "Wow!"
>
> Well, you had to remember the scene. ;-)

Nah, was Pinto who was having the "infinite regress" conversation with the 
Prof. Not sure where Otter was at the time, IIRC it was the Prof, Boone, 
Katie (Boone's girl) and Pinto (the new recruit, besides Flounder). Next 
scene ended up singing "Hey Paula". Yes, I've watched it too many times. :)

Hmm... I remember back in the days of my youth watching Carl Sagan discuss 
the same thing in his "Cosmos" series.

--Kyle 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 00:07:57 2006
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:06:20 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Stealthy Cloak
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They must be reverse engineering a
crashed Romulan spaceship.

;-)

Harry

Terry Blanton wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm
> 
> Experts create invisibility cloak
> By Paul Rincon
> Science reporter, BBC News
> 
> A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of
> invisibility in the laboratory.
> 
> The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests
> at Duke University, North Carolina.
> 
> It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring
> them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space.
> 
> <more>
> 

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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:33:00 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Neuron of G-d
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On 10/23/06, OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net> wrote:

> "You mean all the atoms in my body are made up of electrons spinning around a nucleus," Otter exclaims "just like a miniature solar system?"

On the other hand:

http://www.gecdsb.on.ca/d&g/astro/music/galaxy.mp3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2163133

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 05:36:48 2006
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>From Terry:

> On 10/23/06, OrionWorks <orionworks charter.net> wrote:
> 
> > "You mean all the atoms in my body are made up of electrons
> > spinning around a nucleus," Otter exclaims "just like a miniature solar system?"
> 
> On the other hand:
> 
> http://www.gecdsb.on.ca/d&g/astro/music/galaxy.mp3
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2163133
> 
> Terry

Ah yes! Another Classic. "We need your liver!"

I loved Erik's Galaxy Song too. However, the rather stuffy explanation:

"Assuming we are 25,000 light years from the centre of the galaxy, then the path taken by the sun as it orbits the centre is given by the formula for the circumference of a circle: 2?r = 157,000 light years. As one light year is equal to 9,500,000,000,000 km, and the sun moves at 220 km/s, this all works out to an orbital period of roughly 215-million years. Perfect."

...may not be as accurate as we have all assumed. There is a controversial theory called "MOND" (Modified Newtonian dynamics) having to do with the correction of acceleration anomalies known to exist on galactic scales. It's possible MOND or some variation of it may ultimately turn Newton's revered square law of gravitation upside down, and in the process possibly the eventually dismissal of most if not all of that mysterious DARK MATTER that physicists and astronomers love to pontificate endlessly over, a huge chuck of "matter" that has yet to be proven to actually exist. 

Can you spell "f u d g e   f a c t o r"?

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_Dynamics

PS: My most sincere apologies to "Pinto." I think "Otter" I believe was possibly considering switching majors from pre-law to pre-med, so that he could eventually become a gynecologists based in Beverley Hills. "Can it talk?"

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.Zazzle.com/orionworks



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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:49:15 -0400
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Stealthy Cloak
In-reply-to: <C16333AB.14FC6%eo200 ncf.ca>
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On Tuesday 24 October 2006 04:06, Harry Veeder wrote:
> They must be reverse engineering a
> crashed Romulan spaceship.
>
> ;-)
>
> Harry
>
> Terry Blanton wrote:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm
> >
> > Experts create invisibility cloak
> > By Paul Rincon
> > Science reporter, BBC News
> >
> > A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of
> > invisibility in the laboratory.
> >
> > The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests
> > at Duke University, North Carolina.
> >
> > It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring
> > them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space.
> >
> > <more>

Bet these things are being built and fitted to RAF birds as you read this!

Standing Bear

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This is just an example of an electrodynamic fact. See for example
C. F. Bohren, Am. J. Phys. 51, 323 (1983).
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=AJPIAS000051000004000323000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes<http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=AJPIAS000051000004000323000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes>
If you don't have access to that file you can check Beardens copies
http://www.cheniere.org/references/bohren/
Anyone can look at page 4 and understand the physics.

This is just plain electrodynamics. I can't understand why the professor on
the BBC page talks about secret garden, science fiction, metamaterial.

Another thing is that these materials can not be too densely packed. Then
the properties vanish.

If ZPE theory of gravity and inertia is correct then fast motion and lower
weight could be designed with the same technique.

David

On 10/24/06, Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net> wrote:

> On Tuesday 24 October 2006 04:06, Harry Veeder wrote:
> > They must be reverse engineering a
> > crashed Romulan spaceship.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Harry
> >
> > Terry Blanton wrote:
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm





> > >
> > > Experts create invisibility cloak
> > > By Paul Rincon
> > > Science reporter, BBC News
> > >
> > > A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of
> > > invisibility in the laboratory.
> > >
> > > The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests
> > > at Duke University, North Carolina.
> > >
> > > It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring
> > > them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space.
>

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<div>This is just an example of an electrodynamic fact. See for example</div>
<div><a href="http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&amp;id=AJPIAS000051000004000323000001&amp;idtype=cvips&amp;gifs=yes">C. F. Bohren, Am. J. Phys. 51, 323 (1983). <br>http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&amp;id=AJPIAS000051000004000323000001&amp;idtype=cvips&amp;gifs=yes
</a></div>
<div>If you don't have access to that file you can check Beardens copies</div>
<div><a href="http://www.cheniere.org/references/bohren/">http://www.cheniere.org/references/bohren/</a></div>
<div>Anyone can look at page 4 and understand the physics.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This is just plain electrodynamics. I can't understand why the professor on the BBC page talks about secret garden, science fiction, metamaterial.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Another thing is that these materials can not be too densely packed. Then the properties vanish. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If ZPE theory of gravity and inertia is correct then fast motion and lower weight could be designed with the same technique. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>David</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/24/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Standing Bear</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:rockcastle lakeside1.net">rockcastle@lakeside1.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">On Tuesday 24 October 2006 04:06, Harry Veeder wrote:<br>&gt; They must be reverse engineering a<br>&gt; crashed Romulan spaceship.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; ;-)<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Harry<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Terry Blanton wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm" target="_blank">
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm</a></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Experts create invisibility cloak<br>&gt; &gt; By Paul Rincon<br>&gt; &gt; Science reporter, BBC News
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of<br>&gt; &gt; invisibility in the laboratory.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests
<br>&gt; &gt; at Duke University, North Carolina.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring<br>&gt; &gt; them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space.
<br></blockquote>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 08:16:43 2006
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: Is Copper another Lye?
Status: O
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There has been a lot of complaining in Japan, China, and elsewhere 
about the high price of (mostly Western) copper lately, but is 
anyone really looking at alternatives seriously?

With hybrid cars, this can be an important issue - as they need 
much more electrical conductor - and the buyer ends up paying a 
huge premium for a traditional metal (required by codes) - which 
might not be the best choice for many applications - that is, if a 
surprising (and light weight but corrosive) alternative conductor 
ever gets into mass production. Of course, there is aluminum, as 
an alternative - but an even lighter and much cheaper choice (yet 
more of a  corrosion risk) is sodium. Plus Na is a byproduct of 
PVC production. It can be clad with anodized Al or plastic, and 
still be much cheaper.

A 'conspiracy theorist' [do any frequent this forum?], might opine 
that copper prices are possibly being manipulated as a competitive 
measure to lower the high demand for the Hybrids vs Detroit iron. 
The buyer of a Prius is paying, in effect, an added $500 copper 
tax... hmmm... probably more of a situation of 'market 
opportunism' - than real manipulation.

25 years ago a decent study was done on the subject of alternative 
conductors; and this report came out of it: "A single insulated 
sodium conductor for HVDC underwater power transmission" Author: 
Dunlap, R. M. It would be interesting to know if anyone is 
pursuing alternative like this, in today's economy - or have the 
Alcoa's of the world squelched such inquiry... Terry might know?

Abstract
The minimum energy transmission cost cable configuration for HVDC
underwater power transmission is considered. Cable material costs,
energy losses, operating temperatures, bend radii, terminal
voltages, currents, and resistances are determined. Electrode
design, single vs two conductor transmission, splices, insulation,
control of buoyancy, operating hazards, and the cost per unit of
energy are analyzed. It is concluded that the use of a sodium
conductor insulated with polyethylene for HVDC underwater power
transmission is superior to copper conductor with the same
insulation due to its reduced transmission cost, avoidance of
strategic materials (copper), flexibility, near neutral buoyancy
in water avoiding high stresses laying in deep water, lower
received voltage, and lower operating temperature.
END of 25 year old report.

Nowadays, copper is at least ten time higher in cost then it was 
when the study was done, and sodium is little different (in 
potential cost as a by-product). As for properties:

Sodium - on a per weight basis - will carry three times more 
current than copper for the same temperature rise; but is 9+ times 
less dense;  consequently, for a wire of the same size it will 
only carry about a third the current. Plus sodium requires much 
better insulation against air and water. Wire diameter, as opposed 
to actual weight, is important in motors, generators and 
alternators - but with a cost differential (per amp carried) of at 
least 10-1 (in today's market) and a weight advantage which makes 
hanging wire much easier for crews,  it is puzzling why we  have 
not seen some published R&D (relating to why it is not feasible to 
switch some applications to clad-Na) or else consider changing the 
standards - especially by the Japanese, who have neither much 
copper nor aluminum resources ...but are totally surrounded by 
megatons of sodium <g>.

Jones

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Subject: [Vo]: Was Dean Warwick Murdered?
Status: O
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http://merlib.org/node/4439

Murder By Remote-Control?
News Brief – October 9, 2006

Further indications have come to light that Dean Warwick, alternative
energy pioneer and intelligence insider did not die of natural causes.

Dean Warwick collapsed and died whilst addressing a packed auditorium
in Blackpool last weekend. Significantly however, he said he felt a
"beam" or "burning" at the side of his head shortly before beginning
his talk.

According to those who last spoke to him before he began his talk,
Dean said: "I think I'm going to be bumped off".

<more>

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Subject: [Vo]: Elevator Competition
Status: RO
X-Status: 

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/50942.html

LOS ANGELES TIMES
October 20, 2006

A dozen 'space elevator' prototypes vie for $150,000 payload at the X Prize Cup

LAS CRUCES -- On a windy expanse of the Chihuahua Desert, the gangly
22-pound contraption began to climb up a thin carbon-fiber belt hung
from a crane.

Directed toward the craft from the ground was an array of 135 mirrors
to concentrate the blinding New Mexico sunlight to an intensity equal
to 300 suns. The beam shined on the climber's high-efficiency solar
cells. With a muffled whirring, it rose 35 feet.

Only 37,500 miles to go.

The solar-powered elevator car, dubbed the Jolly Roger, is one of a
dozen prototypes from around the world for a device that could lift
humans and cargo into geosynchronous orbit aboard a futuristic space
elevator.

It's an admittedly bizarre idea, but NASA has taken it seriously
enough to host a global competition here this week, offering $150,000
to the team that can lift the most weight to the top of a 200-foot
tether in the shortest time. Instead of carrying heavy fuel, the
machines must get their energy beamed onboard from sources such as
sunlight, microwaves or lasers. That energy is then converted to
electricity to drive the crafts' motors.

<more>

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Elevator Competition
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:33:15 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:55:23
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>It's an admittedly bizarre idea, but NASA has taken it seriously
>enough to host a global competition here this week, offering $150,000
[snip]
They say no one ever went broke underestimating the average man on
the street. Now I know why.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:20:09 -0400
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Subject: [Vo]: (Shhh!  Don't mention "cold fusion"!)
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The Oct 21-27, 2006 edition of New Scientist has a featured story on
speeding up radioactive decay, mostly by embedding the material in metals
at ultra-low temperatures.  ("Half-life heresy" pp. 36-39; the cover
teaser is "Nuclear waste, yes please".)  Focusing mostly on the work of
German physicist Claus Rolfs, he in turn was inspired by other work that
showed that fusion between deuterons in tantalum metal happened
"unexpectedly often".

This is from last week's edition but is on US newsstands now; the story is
available online to subscribers and possibly in a few weeks to
non-subscribers.

http://tinyurl.com/ym2nnp


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:02:44 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: (Shhh!  Don't mention "cold fusion"!)
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I hope this article piques the interest of more people in the fission
reactor business...especially those in Canada.

Harry


Walter Faxon wrote:

> The Oct 21-27, 2006 edition of New Scientist has a featured story on
> speeding up radioactive decay, mostly by embedding the material in metals
> at ultra-low temperatures.  ("Half-life heresy" pp. 36-39; the cover
> teaser is "Nuclear waste, yes please".)  Focusing mostly on the work of
> German physicist Claus Rolfs, he in turn was inspired by other work that
> showed that fusion between deuterons in tantalum metal happened
> "unexpectedly often".
> 
> This is from last week's edition but is on US newsstands now; the story is
> available online to subscribers and possibly in a few weeks to
> non-subscribers.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/ym2nnp
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 26 00:22:35 2006
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:20:46 -0500
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Subject: [Vo]: Is it a face?
Status: O
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David Darling, astrophysicist, who was interviewed on C to C AM posted 
the following link of the "face" on Mars:

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMINCO7BTE_0.html


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Removal of chi ?
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[A few weeks ago, in a bout of synchronicity, previous comments on 
this thread were attempting to explore the possibility of  a 
"hidden" but vital component of water which might be removed by 
microwaving]


> For instance, even without subscribing to the details of Mills' 
> hydrino theory - it is conceivable (but not likely) that an 
> easily hidden species of "redundant ground state" hydrogen is 
> being continuously created in the solar corona over geologic 
> time - and makes its way to earth in the solar wind - and then 
> accumulates in earth's oceans in parts per billion 
> quantities....


Unbeknownst at the time, there had already been posted, to 
KeelyNet back in May, the piece: "The Science of Qi" about Dr. 
Patrick Flanagan. I must say that Jerry Decker is becoming quite 
the excellent scavenger and sleuth of alternative science News 
items these days...

Here are some excepts and comments from that piece. BTW Qi and Chi 
are the same word, or at least about as close and Deng and Dung 
<g> which is to say, they contrast how the modern Chinese lexicops 
are trying to make their language appear in print to Westerners 
(but without the aid of a good PR person). Anyway:

"PERHAPS the grooviest scientist on the planet today is Dr Patrick 
Flanagan. Inventor, physicist, medical doctor, author and holder 
of over 300 patents, he is also among the most brilliant 
scientists alive. At age 11, he invented a missile detector which 
could track missiles being launched anywhere in the world. The 
Pentagon promptly bought his invention and appointed him as an 
adviser! At age 13, he invented a hearing device that helped many 
deaf people. He continued to invent so many things in so many 
fields that by age 17 (43 years ago), Life Magazine had already 
chosen him as one of the 100 most important young people in the 
US.As proof that he has not slowed down at all, in 1997 at age 51, 
he was named Scientist of The Year by the International 
Association of New Science."

OK that is the "build up" - which is important here to show that 
Flanagan is not some kind of quack or cranky-health-nut. He is the 
creme-de-creme of inventive genius. The reason that this is 
important is that many physicists, on hearing something like Qi or 
Chi or orgone spoken in a serious context, turn pale, start to 
froth at the mouth, and slather vulgarities... anyway...

"During Dr Flanagan's research, he found that the Hunza Valley 
water contains high levels of negatively-charged hydrogen ions 
(each hydrogen atom having an extra electron)"...

Is that correct? What did he find, really? Given that few 
scientists outside the energy-world, including the good Doc 
Flanagan, have ever heard of Mills' hydrino-hydride ... and given 
that the Hunza valley sits at very high elevation ... hmm?

"According to him [Flanagan], the moving electrons (through the 
movement of hydrogen) generate Qi, the universal life force. Even 
he acknowledges that Qi is at the core of all matter and 
biochemical reactions...

Hmm ... now that is interesting, no?

Should we alert the good Doc to the fact that the Key ...err... Qi 
of Life - may not be that "electron" after all, but might be 
something a little more "binding" shall we say and have a new name 
and symbol: hydrino-hydride or Hy+ ?

OTOH ... if it takes a couple of pages of hard-won prose just to 
scratch the surface in an attempt to explain the arcane 
differences between Qi, Chi, hydrino-hydride, orgone, and 
hydronium ... to the sci-lexicops [and that is without recourse to 
Mills' 800 page oeuvre), then I think I'll be well-advised to just 
stick with a simpler "Chi" and let others, with a bit more 
patience and less of an elitist slant, unlock the subtle-secrets 
of ... Qi.

Jones

BTW, as a personal note, and perhaps intuitively sensing the 
universal memes which are floating around Gaia this season - 
Ramadan, Yom Kippur, etc. I began a Fast five days ago (as much 
for therapeutic as religious rationale), and can vouch for the 
general concept that "only" water can have curative and sustaining 
value far in excess of what we normally attribute to it.... 
However, sure wish I had a few gallons of Doc Flanagan's Hunza-Hy+ 
;-)

So if the observations above are too cranky for you, attribute 
that to the altered perception which is induced by lack of food.

I missed the Coast-to-Coast radio show mentioned by Paul - where 
writer and philosopher Stephen Schwartz was to discuss how 
consciousness affects the structure of water, but it is definitely 
a subject which you will hear more about, in the years to come... 
and probably supports the related conclusion that fasting is not 
for everyone; certainly not for those without the consciousness to 
"believe" that they can alter the structure of the commonplace and 
elevate the trivial to the vital.


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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Ammonia-Fueled Engines
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Stimulating?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/hydrogen_engine.html
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Stimulating?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2><A href="http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/hydrogen_engine.html">http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/hydrogen_engine.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Vapor Cycle Solar Power vs The Solar Tower
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>From the Stack Effect and Wind Turbine equations, one
can calculate a Stack Area and "wind velocity" and the maximum turbine power attainable.

1% "Thermal Efficiency"  based on Ti-To/Ti (The Carnot Efficiency) 
with outside/incoming air "temperature dilution" would be overly optimistic
no matter how high the stack.

Fred

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

"According to model calculations, an updraft power plant with an output of 200 MW would need a collector 7 kilometres in diameter (total area of about 38 km²) and a 1000 metre high chimney.[2] The 38 km² collecting area is expected to extract about 0.5% of the solar power (1 kW/m²) that falls upon it. Because no data are available to test these models on a large-scale updraft tower there remains uncertainty about the reliability of these calculations."

Stack Effect Equations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect

Wind Turbine Power:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine

>From Dan Fink's "Wind Basics":

http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html

" Wind Power  (watts) = 1/2 *air density *swept area* wind velocity^3  
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>From the Stack Effect and Wind Turbine equations, one</DIV>
<DIV>can calculate a Stack Area and "wind velocity" and the maximum turbine power attainable.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1% "Thermal Efficiency"&nbsp; based on Ti-To/Ti (The Carnot Efficiency) </DIV>
<DIV>with outside/incoming air "temperature dilution" would be overly optimistic</DIV>
<DIV>no matter how high the stack.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"According to model calculations, an updraft power plant with an output of 200 MW would need a collector 7 kilometres in diameter (total area of about 38 km²) and a 1000 metre high chimney.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-Schlaich_1><A title="" href="#_note-Schlaich">[2]</A></SUP> The 38 km² collecting area is expected to extract about 0.5% of the solar power (1 <A title=KW href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower/wiki/KW">kW</A>/m²) that falls upon it. Because no data are available to test these models on a large-scale updraft tower there remains uncertainty about the reliability of these calculations."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Stack Effect Equations:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Wind Turbine Power:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From Dan Fink's "Wind Basics":</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html">http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Wind Power&nbsp; (watts) = 1/2 *<FONT size=+1>air density *swept area* wind velocity^3<SUP><FONT size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;</SUP></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Removal of chi?
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Then again, there is a chi in your chi-mney Richard.

Watch Jones blow his stack over that one.  :-)

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Then again, there is a chi in your chi-mney Richard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Watch Jones blow his stack over that one.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Vapor Cycle Solar Power vs The Solar Tower
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Posted Earlier:

1% "Thermal Efficiency"  based on (Ti-To)/Ti (The Carnot Efficiency) 
with outside/incoming air "temperature dilution" would be overly optimistic
no matter how high the chimney/stack.

Ain't much "chi" in a Tall Texas Chi-mney, Richard. 
About 4 square miles of horizontal flat-plate collector (with radiative or
cooling tower heat rejection) using water as a heat transfer-storage medium 
to pressurize sealed tanks of ammonia, propane, or a freon refrigerant for powering
expansion engines/turbines could produce about 200 megawatts
around the clock.

One could do this in the back yard with a couple of 20 pound propane tanks
containing a few pounds of propane, immersed in insulated-water-filled drums
using a condensate return pump, an expansion "engine" along with
some smart electronics, a collector-radiator panel and a swamp cooler.

Fred

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

"According to model calculations, an updraft power plant with an output of 200 MW would need a collector 7 kilometres in diameter (total area of about 38 km²) and a 1000 metre high chimney.[2] The 38 km² collecting area is expected to extract about 0.5% of the solar power (1 kW/m²) that falls upon it. Because no data are available to test these models on a large-scale updraft tower there remains uncertainty about the reliability of these calculations."

Stack Effect Equations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect

Wind Turbine Power:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine

>From Dan Fink's "Wind Basics":

http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html

" Wind Power  (watts) = 1/2 *air density *swept area* wind velocity^3  
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV>Posted Earlier:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1% "Thermal Efficiency"&nbsp; based on (Ti-To)/Ti (The Carnot Efficiency) </DIV>
<DIV>with outside/incoming air "temperature dilution" would be overly optimistic</DIV>
<DIV>no matter how high the chimney/stack.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ain't much "chi" in a Tall Texas Chi-mney, Richard.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>About 4 square miles of horizontal flat-plate collector (with radiative or</DIV>
<DIV>cooling tower heat rejection) using water as a heat transfer-storage medium </DIV>
<DIV>to pressurize sealed tanks of ammonia, propane, or a freon refrigerant for powering</DIV>
<DIV>expansion engines/turbines could produce about 200 megawatts</DIV>
<DIV>around the clock.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>One could do this in the back yard with a couple of 20 pound propane tanks</DIV>
<DIV>containing a few pounds of propane, immersed in insulated-water-filled drums</DIV>
<DIV>using a condensate return pump, an expansion "engine" along with</DIV>
<DIV>some smart electronics, a collector-radiator panel and a swamp cooler.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fred</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"According to model calculations, an updraft power plant with an output of 200 MW would need a collector 7 kilometres in diameter (total area of about 38 km²) and a 1000 metre high chimney.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-Schlaich_1><A title="" href="#_note-Schlaich">[2]</A></SUP> The 38 km² collecting area is expected to extract about 0.5% of the solar power (1 <A title=KW href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower/wiki/KW">kW</A>/m²) that falls upon it. Because no data are available to test these models on a large-scale updraft tower there remains uncertainty about the reliability of these calculations."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Stack Effect Equations:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_effect</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Wind Turbine Power:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From Dan Fink's "Wind Basics":</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html">http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics1.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Wind Power&nbsp; (watts) = 1/2 *<FONT size=+1>air density *swept area* wind velocity^3<SUP><FONT size=+1>&nbsp;&nbsp;</SUP></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
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The impetus for this [far-out] idea is based on the earlier 
premise:

> For instance, even without subscribing to the details of Mills' 
> hydrino theory - it is conceivable (but not likely) that an 
> easily hidden species of "redundant ground state" hydrogen is 
> being continuously created in the solar corona over geologic 
> time - and makes its way to earth in the solar wind -

First two corrections. The hypothetical particle in question will 
be designated as Hy- [but in an earlier post it was dyslexicly 
written as a positive ion]. This species (if real) must consists 
of one proton and two electrons at 'orbitals' which are a whole 
fraction of the Bohr orbital. However, this solar-derived species 
may be largely incompatible with any earthly existence at all, and 
yet it could still be a major component of solar wind. Believe it 
or not, we do NOT presently know from real experiment just what is 
in solar wind. It's all a guess now. Even the recently failed 
attempt by NASA to find out was not equipped to search for this 
species, Hy-, so it too would have been inconclusive.

Electrons, despite electrostatic repulsion, can display an equally 
strong and balancing magnetic attraction, and often will exhibit a 
very strong preference for pairing, as we know. This - even 
without Mills' CQM - is a most revealing and important 
observation. We might even go so far as to agree with Mills that 
the Bohr orbital is NOT the sole ground state, as is generally 
stated in physics textbooks, but instead is merely the first [of 
many redundant ground states] at which the electron and proton 
*can exist with unpaired electrons*, as opposed to paired. A 
further implication is that - for every Bohr atom at normal 
earth-ground-state,  in the Universe as a whole, there could 
possibly exist from 10 to 100 widely dispersed and 'cold' Hy-, 
which ARE then defined as 'dark matter' (or at least a major 
component thereof). This creates the situation of an inherent 
charge-bias across the Universe. Not to mention making fools of 
previous cosmology "experts" who are convinced they have it all 
figured out already.

Does a charge bias, or inherent imbalance, seem to fly in the face 
of observation? is it theoretically even possible?  ... and before 
reflexively yelling NOT POSSIBLE!

...consider that "universal expansion" itself could be a relic of 
this inherent charge bias! We certainly have a charge-bias in 
earth's atmosphere, which varies in layers, and is most apparent 
as the so-called "fair weather field" but one of those layer may 
be caused by the solar wind containing lots of Hy- instead of what 
is normally envisioned = free electrons. Free solar electrons 
could be almost impossible in a situation where the Sun itself has 
an ever increasing positive charge bias from having already given 
up 5 billion years worth of Hy-. In contrast to free electrons, 
these Hy- can and do exit the corona by means of the 1837x greater 
kinetic momentum which they possess, compared with free electrons.

At any rate, given the thermodynamics of the constant formation of 
hydrinos in the solar corona, we might further suspect that the 
average [most prevalent] hydrino paired orbital is near maximum 
entropy, of perhaps n=1/7 or 1/8 (if Robin's calcs are correct). 
See
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

however, I should add that Robin will likely disagree with parts 
of this speculation. It is ironic that perceptive folks, of all 
persuasion, can seldom agree on anything without first having the 
ferment of a previous, and vigorous, disagreement.

The major spatial difference between hydrogen and hydrino is that 
in the same volume of a typical H2 molecule, upwards to 4000 of 
the solar Hy- would fit if they were not charged, but since the 
charge creates a strong near-field, the actual ability to coexist 
with normal matter is extremely doubtful at all, and is unknown 
(to anyone other than Mills, but his present inability to harness 
this species is probably meaningful). But that is not the 
end-of-story for using them elsewhere, even if making them on 
earth is too difficult. Stated another way, why buy the cow when 
the milk's free?

OK, after this preamble (more like a pre-ramble <g>) we are back 
to the Hydrino Harvester (c). I have taken the liberty of 
copywriting this name and idea today for a number of reasons. 
Mills, despite his admitted genius, has a history of [occasional] 
plagiarizing the ideas of others without attribution. This 
continues today, as many corrections in his various revised 
versions of CQM resulted from the unacknowledged input from his 
critics: somewhat as 'punishment' it seems for their correct 
criticism, which makes it doubly wrong - but at least he does 
continue to make the necessary changes in that oeuvre ... but 
seldom with proper attribution. Ergo the (c).

Anyway, if the Hy- is a real species, then what follows will be of 
great interest to NASA - and they should get it for free, rather 
than paying BLP for it (poetic justice). If we are ever going into 
interplanetary space, or even to colonize the moon, it would be of 
incredible benefit to "harvest" one of the most incredible 
propellants which is imaginable - and to do that by "farming" the 
ionosphere of earth. Coincidentally, this is spatial layer (one 
sublayer of it) is probably a gigantic but transitory repository 
for solar Hy-, as they are being continually temporarily captured, 
or slowed, by earth's magnetic field. Very few may actually get to 
earth's surface, although megatons arrive daily, are slowed and 
then continue on towards the Oort cloud and beyond.

It makes sense that a magnetic, or electrostatic "Harvester" for 
these solar-derived hydrinos, placed into low earth-orbit, in a 
part of the ionosphere where NASA has never wanted to place 
satellites before (for the obvious reasons), could collect and 
"neutralize" Hy-s to then be used later for a propellant in 
interplanetary, or interstellar, exploration. IOW one might 
imagine several hundred relatively cheap robot harvesters, which 
contain permanent magnets, a supply of potassium to neutralize 
with, and an AI computer brain (son of X-box). After scavenging 
the ionosphere for a few weeks, the robot-collectors will 
rendezvous with a space-tanker and transfer the booty and go out 
again, powered by induction from the same materials they are 
capturing. Simple, on paper, no?

Well, OK - if this doesn't pan out in practicality, it might be 
the premise for a good Sci-Fi tale -- 

We might call it: "Just Say NO! : The Revolt of the Hy Robots" or 
something along those lines...

Jones

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BlankHowdy Jones,

Or it may be stated " HY". A Jones homily is always welcome on a =
blustery Texas fall day.

The thing most   thought provoking in your " copyrighted theory " is =
considering the long sought explanation of " heat" radiation received on =
earth from the sun. To consider that a fascimile of heat is " =
encapsulated" in something while " in transit" from the sun to the earth =
is blasphemy to the gods of higher learning. Yet , how else to explain =
how heat can survive the coldness of vacuum space over 93 mil miles.. =
hmmm!

Richard



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background=3Dcid:002d01c6f9f9$f2de84c0$ee027841 xptower>
<DIV>Howdy Jones,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Or it may be stated " HY". A Jones homily is always welcome on a =
blustery=20
Texas fall day.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The thing most &nbsp; thought provoking in your " copyrighted =
theory&nbsp;"=20
is considering the long sought explanation of " heat" radiation received =
on=20
earth from the sun. To consider that a fascimile of heat is " =
encapsulated" in=20
something while " in transit" from the sun to the earth is blasphemy to =
the gods=20
of higher learning. Yet , how else to explain how heat can survive the =
coldness=20
of vacuum space over 93 mil miles.. hmmm!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 12:41:29 2006
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Fred wrote,

Then again, there is a chi in your chi-mney Richard.

Watch Jones blow his stack over that one.  :-)


Howdy Fred,

Sumtin's doon tikled dat man's fancy.

Humor is an imperative for survival in the new world of dis-order of =
science and politics.

 Hannibal could have been defeated with laughter when you think about =
it. Just the headlines in the Roman Times would have done it.=20
" General P.T (Barnum) Hannibal invades Rome with circus troop complete =
with elephants."

Richard




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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" =
size=3D2>Fred=20
wrote,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif"=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" =
size=3D2>Then=20
again, there is a chi in your chi-mney Richard.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3DVerdana>Watch =
Jones blow his=20
stack over that one.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3DVerdana>Howdy=20
Fred,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT face=3DVerdana>Sumtin's =
doon tikled=20
dat man's fancy.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Humor is an imperative for survival =
in the new=20
world of dis-order of science and politics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>&nbsp;Hannibal could have been =
defeated with=20
laughter when you think about it. Just the headlines in the Roman Times =
would=20
have done it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>" General P.T (Barnum) Hannibal =
invades Rome with=20
circus troop complete with elephants."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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RC Macaulay [walhalla cvtv.net], Sir, I respect your opinion as I would
expect you of mine, yet I wonder about your e-mail account of walhalla as
opposed to valhalla? :-)


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BlankJones wrote,
The reason that this is=20
important is that many physicists, on hearing something like Qi or=20
Chi or orgone spoken in a serious context, turn pale, start to=20
froth at the mouth, and slather vulgarities... anyway...

Howdy Jones,

One must have a regular portion of Jone's "homolies" to survive in the =
backwoods of Texas.=20

Much space has been devoted on the web to the remarkable properties of =
water including "ormus" state water etc.The bible has an interesting =
sentence.. "the water and the blood".

Richard

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<DIV>Jones wrote,</DIV>
<P>The reason that this is <BR>important is that many physicists, on =
hearing=20
something like Qi or <BR>Chi or orgone spoken in a serious context, turn =
pale,=20
start to <BR>froth at the mouth, and slather vulgarities...=20
anyway...<BR><BR>Howdy Jones,</P>
<P>One must have a regular portion of Jone's "homolies" to survive in =
the=20
backwoods of Texas. </P>
<P>Much space has been devoted on the web to the remarkable properties =
of water=20
including "ormus" state water etc.The bible has an interesting =
sentence.. "the=20
water and the blood".</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 17:50:19 2006
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Hi Robin.

My back-of the-envelope calculations for a flat panel
solar collector using water as a heat transfer fluid
to heat anhydrous ammonia (or propane) stored in tanks with
nighttime black-plate radiative or daytime cooling tower heat rejection
operating at 10% Carnot efficiency (140-80 F) could easily muster
about 5,000 kW-hr per hectare day.
That comes out to about 4.0 square miles of collector that
can be used for Texas Style barn dances to pay for the Solar Tower losses (where less
than 1.0% heat as work is extracted from the solar-heated air).

Obviously an unlimited free pass for Richard Macaulay and Willie Nelson.  :-)

Fred
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Hi Robin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>My back-of the-envelope calculations for a flat panel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>solar collector using water as a heat transfer fluid</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>to heat anhydrous ammonia (or propane) stored in tanks with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>nighttime black-plate radiative or daytime cooling tower heat rejection</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>operating at 10% Carnot efficiency (140-80 F) could easily muster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>about 5,000 kW-hr per hectare day.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>That comes out to about 4.0 square miles of collector that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>can be used for Texas Style barn dances </FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>to pay for the Solar Tower losses (where less</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>than 1.0% heat </FONT><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>as work is extracted from the solar-heated air).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Obviously an unlimited free pass for Richard Macaulay and Willie Nelson.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: The Hydrino Harvester
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:59:08 -0500
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Dr. Stiffler wrote..


> RC Macaulay [walhalla cvtv.net], Sir, I respect your opinion as I would
> expect you of mine, yet I wonder about your e-mail account of walhalla as
> opposed to valhalla? :-)

Howdy Dr.Stiffler,

The account is named walhalla after the nearby (used to be) town of 
Walhalla, Texas. The local pronunciation differs depending on ancestory. 
Germans pronounce the word with a V sound.
Stories differ regarding the demise of Walhalla Texas, some believe the 
procrastinators club originated in the basement of the old cotton gin back 
in 1889, but since they never got around to composing a members list... 
well.. err.. what can I say
.
Settlers started coming in around 1821 ( the Austin Colony), the first 
German town in Texas was settled nearby and named Industry. More German 
settlers came and named Oldenburg, Rutersville, New Ulm, Waldeck, Weimar 
etc. The Czechs came later and named their towns Dubina, Nechanitz, Praha 
etc.

My favorite character out of Texas history is a fella named Buckner, a 
genuine individual. He came in around 1815 before Austin, settled alongside 
a spring fed creek otherside of LaGrange Texas. He had an old indian woman 
lived with him. Nobody lived closer than 100 miles. Along came Austin and 
told him he'd have to move off the land he settled cuz it was given the 
Austin settlers by Mexico. Buckner held his own for 15 some years. The 
trouble with Mexico got worse and Austin kept asking Buckner to fight with 
the settlers but he stayed out of it until 1835 when he let a politicain 
talk him into going down to Velasco to help fight. Got himself killed for 
the trouble and outa kindness, the politicains divided his land between 
themselves. Kinda reminds me of the story of Iraq.

Say Walhalla or Valhalla , don't much matter anymore, cuz Mexico will soon 
demonstrate that Santa Ana actually won the battle of San Jacinto in 1836.. 
just took longer than expected.

Richard 


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From: "Dr. Stiffler" <drstiffler earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [VO]: The Hydrino Harvester
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:54:21 -0500
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An intelligent, well informed and appropriate response.

As with a shamed puppy I can only walk away with my tail between my legs.

>>------------<<
Dr. Stiffler wrote..


> RC Macaulay [walhalla cvtv.net], Sir, I respect your opinion as I would
> expect you of mine, yet I wonder about your e-mail account of walhalla as
> opposed to valhalla? :-)

Howdy Dr.Stiffler,

The account is named walhalla after the nearby (used to be) town of
Walhalla, Texas. The local pronunciation differs depending on ancestory.
Germans pronounce the word with a V sound.
Stories differ regarding the demise of Walhalla Texas, some believe the
procrastinators club originated in the basement of the old cotton gin back
in 1889, but since they never got around to composing a members list...
well.. err.. what can I say
.
Settlers started coming in around 1821 ( the Austin Colony), the first
German town in Texas was settled nearby and named Industry. More German
settlers came and named Oldenburg, Rutersville, New Ulm, Waldeck, Weimar
etc. The Czechs came later and named their towns Dubina, Nechanitz, Praha
etc.

My favorite character out of Texas history is a fella named Buckner, a
genuine individual. He came in around 1815 before Austin, settled alongside
a spring fed creek otherside of LaGrange Texas. He had an old indian woman
lived with him. Nobody lived closer than 100 miles. Along came Austin and
told him he'd have to move off the land he settled cuz it was given the
Austin settlers by Mexico. Buckner held his own for 15 some years. The
trouble with Mexico got worse and Austin kept asking Buckner to fight with
the settlers but he stayed out of it until 1835 when he let a politicain
talk him into going down to Velasco to help fight. Got himself killed for
the trouble and outa kindness, the politicains divided his land between
themselves. Kinda reminds me of the story of Iraq.

Say Walhalla or Valhalla , don't much matter anymore, cuz Mexico will soon
demonstrate that Santa Ana actually won the battle of San Jacinto in 1836..
just took longer than expected.

Richard

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: Original OU?
Status: O
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Before anyone starts to take what follows too seriously, let me 
say that it is offered in the "spirit of the season" shall we say. 
That season being the rather irrational season around Halloween 
with its ties to the ancient Celts and even to the Egyptians. 
Hey - I am trying to avoid pumpkin-carving by pretending to be "at 
work" ....

I have to add this caveat, because many normally perceptive 
individuals tend to go a little gaga about the Egyptians (or the 
Celts) and their accomplishments. You know... "lost knowledge" and 
all of that. Don't get me wrong - in the context of what came 
before, it is almost like the a major explosion in technology took 
place around the start of the 4th Dynasty, leading many to invent 
all kinds of hypotheses for that - like "alien" contact and so on. 
You can buy into the concept of lost knowledge without going all 
the way to alien-contact, but hey... this time of year, anything 
goes.

Let's don't even go there, at least not precisely all the way to 
aliens... but instead consider a minor detail of the Pyramid of 
Cheops - that being the shafts leading from the so-called King's 
and Queen's chambers. But that in the context of putative "free 
energy". Here is some good detail:

http://www.cheops.org/startpage/thefindings/thefindings.htm

... and I will not go into the various theories regarding the 
function of the shafts as passageways for the soul etc, except to 
say that when discovered, two of them were heavily filled with 
soot. However, there does seem to be a strange Cartouche next to 
one shaft which translates to the equivalent of "hyperfine" .... 
;-)

Right. Well, in this context, one must introduce the ancient 
phenomenon of the "eternal flame" or the "ever-burning lamp" (the 
original genie's lamp) --- the importance of which symbol and the 
proven relics thereof cannot be over-emphasized to the mentality 
of ancient people. The ever-burning lamp was a daily miracle to 
them - a goal of pilgrimage and a gift from divinity ... 
especially considering the importance of fire - to early 
civilization.

Unfortunately, the archaeology often gets mixed up with other 
things, as is the case of Ms. Lloyd here:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=12801

...but anyway, in a few of the dozens of ancient sites where 
eternal flames were known to have been going, apparently 
unattended, and of course worshipped, there has been the prevalent 
hypothesis that the source of flame was a slow underground seepage 
of natural gas. This source kept the flames going for centuries, 
it is said. Many of these were located in caves in areas which 
have some hydrocarbon geology - and we all know the stories of 
"coal gas" in the Appalachians of the USA. This explanation is 
bolstered by the fact that some lamps were extinguished after 
earthquakes.

Anyway - back to the shafts in the Pyramid of Cheops, where of 
course there is no underground seepage of natural gas, or coal, 
and any priest who was carrying a secret lamp-refill would have 
been easily spotted ... consequently - one might be justified to 
consider whether the shafts themselves could somehow capture of 
focus a hidden source of energy, which might be involved in either 
augmenting slow combustion or perhaps in powering a natural 
iridescence or certain minerals ... or both.

(assuming that these were not the lamps of early grave robbers - 
or of the craftsmen finishing the work, which is the mundane 
explanation, which we want to avoid at all costs during this 
special season of alternative reality <g>)

Anyway, I will leave the "trick-or-treat" answer up to your 
imagination, with the hint that if you look closely at the 
dimensions of the shafts - it seems that they were trying to make 
them pretty close to 21 cm on a side. They might have been lined 
with gold or brass at one time, which would have stripped-away by 
a later Dynasty to pay the bills. The dimensions are not precise, 
but perhaps they were good enough for 'Pharaoh-work' ... as the 
slaves used to say back then.

Jones 

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Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 27, 2006
Status: RO
X-Status: 



> [Original Message]
 > From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
 > To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
 Date: 10/27/2006 1:17:30 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 27, 2006

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. STEREOTYPE THREATS: DOES GENDER INFLUENCE MATH PERFORMANCE? 
 It does if women expect it to.  When Lawrence Summers speculated
 that innate ability might explain why there are fewer women in
 math and science, it cost him the presidency of Harvard.  A study
 reported in Science by researchers at the University of British
 Columbia found that women exposed to bogus scientific theories
 linking their gender to poor math skills performed more poorly on
 subsequent math tests.  Uncertainty over whether they could do it
 presumably affected how hard they tried.  Professors over 70 also
 have a notorious stereotype, but I can't remember what it is.  

 2. HARVARD: CURRICULUM COMMITTEE PROPOSES "REASON AND FAITH." 
 The world is riven by religious war.  It always has been.  We
 live now in an age of science, but it is ancient, unfounded
 religious beliefs that are central to national disputes over the
 teaching of evolution, stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia
 and same-sex marriage.  A Harvard curriculum committee has
 therefore recommended that every Harvard student be required to
 take one course on the interplay between religion and science. 
 It must be framed in the context of social issues.  This seems
 certain to influence other universities.  Scientists had better
 start getting involved before the zealots take over.

 3. CONSPIRATORS: HAVE THEY INFILTRATED BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY? 
 In June, we mentioned the World Trade Center conspiracy theory of
 physics professor Steven Jones at Brigham Young University
 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn062306.html .  He believes
 the Trade Center was rigged with explosives on 9/11, with the
 connivance of the U.S. government.  BYU suspended Jones pending a
 review of his 9/11 theories, but Jones has now agree to retire.
 This isn't his first trip into delusion.  Seventeen years ago his
 delusion of geologic cold fusion got Pons and Fleischmann at the
 U. of Utah started on a cold fusion delusion of their own. 
   
 4. CELL PHONES ARE ATTACKING SPERM? SO BAN THE DAMN CELL PHONES. 
 If they're not attacking sperm, ban them anyway.  But there is
 not a chance that the reported low sperm counts among heavy cell
 phone users, reported at the American Society of Reproductive
 Medicine Conference in New Orleans on Sunday, had anything to do
 with cell phone radiation.  The wavelength is far too long to
 have any direct chemical effect and the microwave heating from a
 cell phone is easily handled by the body's temperature regulating
 mechanism.  It's too small to affect sperm, even if you put the
 phone in your underpants.  Ashok Agarwal of the Cleveland Clinic
 in Ohio, studied 364 men at a fertility clinic in Mumbai, India. 
 The real question is what they talk about for four hours a day. 

 5. INVISIBILITY: WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN? 
 The Shadow knows.  Researchers were able to deflect microwaves
 around a copper cylinder, if you happen to see with microwaves.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 27, 2006
Status: RO
X-Status: 



> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
> To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
> Date: 10/27/2006 1:17:30 PM
 Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 27, 2006

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Oct 06   Washington, DC

 1. STEREOTYPE THREATS: DOES GENDER INFLUENCE MATH PERFORMANCE? 
 It does if women expect it to.  When Lawrence Summers speculated
 that innate ability might explain why there are fewer women in
 math and science, it cost him the presidency of Harvard.  A study
 reported in Science by researchers at the University of British
 Columbia found that women exposed to bogus scientific theories
 linking their gender to poor math skills performed more poorly on
 subsequent math tests.  Uncertainty over whether they could do it
 presumably affected how hard they tried.  Professors over 70 also
 have a notorious stereotype, but I can't remember what it is.  

 2. HARVARD: CURRICULUM COMMITTEE PROPOSES "REASON AND FAITH." 
 The world is riven by religious war.  It always has been.  We
 live now in an age of science, but it is ancient, unfounded
 religious beliefs that are central to national disputes over the
 teaching of evolution, stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia
 and same-sex marriage.  A Harvard curriculum committee has
 therefore recommended that every Harvard student be required to
 take one course on the interplay between religion and science. 
 It must be framed in the context of social issues.  This seems
 certain to influence other universities.  Scientists had better
 start getting involved before the zealots take over.

 3. CONSPIRATORS: HAVE THEY INFILTRATED BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY? 
 In June, we mentioned the World Trade Center conspiracy theory of
 physics professor Steven Jones at Brigham Young University
 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn062306.html .  He believes
 the Trade Center was rigged with explosives on 9/11, with the
 connivance of the U.S. government.  BYU suspended Jones pending a
 review of his 9/11 theories, but Jones has now agree to retire.
 This isn't his first trip into delusion.  Seventeen years ago his
 delusion of geologic cold fusion got Pons and Fleischmann at the
 U. of Utah started on a cold fusion delusion of their own. 
   
 4. CELL PHONES ARE ATTACKING SPERM? SO BAN THE DAMN CELL PHONES. 
 If they're not attacking sperm, ban them anyway.  But there is
 not a chance that the reported low sperm counts among heavy cell
 phone users, reported at the American Society of Reproductive
 Medicine Conference in New Orleans on Sunday, had anything to do
 with cell phone radiation.  The wavelength is far too long to
 have any direct chemical effect and the microwave heating from a
 cell phone is easily handled by the body's temperature regulating
 mechanism.  It's too small to affect sperm, even if you put the
 phone in your underpants.  Ashok Agarwal of the Cleveland Clinic
 in Ohio, studied 364 men at a fertility clinic in Mumbai, India. 
 The real question is what they talk about for four hours a day. 

 5. INVISIBILITY: WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN? 
 The Shadow knows.  Researchers were able to deflect microwaves
 around a copper cylinder, if you happen to see with microwaves.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
 What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
 subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
 status please visit this link:
 http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1


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Message-ID: <20061028192000.46088.qmail web33302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Arnold <pulsed_ignition yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday October 27, 2006
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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So Jones was deluded about Cold Fusion as well as 911
- but Cold Fusion is real, therefore his views on 911
must also be correct. Just look at the Pennsylvania
plane crash pictures of the gouged and burned ground
from "impact" - will notice tall green grass growing
where the plane was supposed to have impacted. Anyone
with half a brain cell knows that grass does not
spring up over two feet tall moments after it gets
crushed and burned by an airplane crash. But many
people still believe a plane crashed there, even
though there was no sign of an airplane.

Chris

--- Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> > [Original Message]
>  > From: What's New <whatsnew BOBPARK.ORG>
>  > To: <BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>
>  Date: 10/27/2006 1:17:30 PM
>  Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday
> October 27, 2006
> 
>  WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Oct 06  
> Washington, DC
> 
>  1. STEREOTYPE THREATS: DOES GENDER INFLUENCE MATH
> PERFORMANCE? 
>  It does if women expect it to.  When Lawrence
> Summers speculated
>  that innate ability might explain why there are
> fewer women in
>  math and science, it cost him the presidency of
> Harvard.  A study
>  reported in Science by researchers at the
> University of British
>  Columbia found that women exposed to bogus
> scientific theories
>  linking their gender to poor math skills performed
> more poorly on
>  subsequent math tests.  Uncertainty over whether
> they could do it
>  presumably affected how hard they tried. 
> Professors over 70 also
>  have a notorious stereotype, but I can't remember
> what it is.  
> 
>  2. HARVARD: CURRICULUM COMMITTEE PROPOSES "REASON
> AND FAITH." 
>  The world is riven by religious war.  It always has
> been.  We
>  live now in an age of science, but it is ancient,
> unfounded
>  religious beliefs that are central to national
> disputes over the
>  teaching of evolution, stem cell research,
> abortion, euthanasia
>  and same-sex marriage.  A Harvard curriculum
> committee has
>  therefore recommended that every Harvard student be
> required to
>  take one course on the interplay between religion
> and science. 
>  It must be framed in the context of social issues. 
> This seems
>  certain to influence other universities. 
> Scientists had better
>  start getting involved before the zealots take
> over.
> 
>  3. CONSPIRATORS: HAVE THEY INFILTRATED BRIGHAM
> YOUNG UNIVERSITY? 
>  In June, we mentioned the World Trade Center
> conspiracy theory of
>  physics professor Steven Jones at Brigham Young
> University
>  http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn062306.html .
>  He believes
>  the Trade Center was rigged with explosives on
> 9/11, with the
>  connivance of the U.S. government.  BYU suspended
> Jones pending a
>  review of his 9/11 theories, but Jones has now
> agree to retire.
>  This isn't his first trip into delusion.  Seventeen
> years ago his
>  delusion of geologic cold fusion got Pons and
> Fleischmann at the
>  U. of Utah started on a cold fusion delusion of
> their own. 
>    
>  4. CELL PHONES ARE ATTACKING SPERM? SO BAN THE DAMN
> CELL PHONES. 
>  If they're not attacking sperm, ban them anyway. 
> But there is
>  not a chance that the reported low sperm counts
> among heavy cell
>  phone users, reported at the American Society of
> Reproductive
>  Medicine Conference in New Orleans on Sunday, had
> anything to do
>  with cell phone radiation.  The wavelength is far
> too long to
>  have any direct chemical effect and the microwave
> heating from a
>  cell phone is easily handled by the body's
> temperature regulating
>  mechanism.  It's too small to affect sperm, even if
> you put the
>  phone in your underpants.  Ashok Agarwal of the
> Cleveland Clinic
>  in Ohio, studied 364 men at a fertility clinic in
> Mumbai, India. 
>  The real question is what they talk about for four
> hours a day. 
> 
>  5. INVISIBILITY: WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE
> HEARTS OF MEN? 
>  The Shadow knows.  Researchers were able to deflect
> microwaves
>  around a copper cylinder, if you happen to see with
> microwaves.
> 
>  THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
>  Opinions are the author's and not necessarily
> shared by the
>  University of Maryland, but they should be.
>  ---
>  Archives of What's New can be found at
> http://www.bobpark.org
>  What's New is moving to a different listserver and
> our
>  subscription process has changed. To change your
> subscription
>  status please visit this link:
> 
>
http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1
> 
> 
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: [Vo]: Jones' conclusions
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Chris opined;

So Jones was deluded about Cold Fusion as well as 911
- but Cold Fusion is real, therefore his views on 911
must also be correct. 


There's a nonsequitor if ever I heard one. Hum, the spell checker 
flagged nonsequitor. I'll try again, just because he's smart enough to 
get a PhD in physics, and open minded enough to realize that the 
evidence for CF is compelling, that doesn't mean that he's right about 
9/11.

I've decided that even if the 9/11 conspiracy folks are right, I'm not 
going to worry about it. We have 1,000,000,000 people, a significant 
percentage of whom believe that killing us will get them a worderful 
eternity, and they have declared a jihad against us.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:06:14 -0500
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
In-reply-to: <004f01c6f9ea$947c10a0$6401a8c0 NuDell>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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On Friday 27 October 2006 13:08, Jones Beene wrote:
> The impetus for this [far-out] idea is based on the earlier
>
> premise:
> > For instance, even without subscribing to the details of Mills'
> > hydrino theory - it is conceivable (but not likely) that an
> > easily hidden species of "redundant ground state" hydrogen is
> > being continuously created in the solar corona over geologic
> > time - and makes its way to earth in the solar wind -
>
> First two corrections. The hypothetical particle in question will
> be designated as Hy- [but in an earlier post it was dyslexicly
> written as a positive ion]. This species (if real) must consists
> of one proton and two electrons at 'orbitals' which are a whole
> fraction of the Bohr orbital. However, this solar-derived species
> may be largely incompatible with any earthly existence at all, and
> yet it could still be a major component of solar wind. Believe it
> or not, we do NOT presently know from real experiment just what is
> in solar wind. It's all a guess now. Even the recently failed
> attempt by NASA to find out was not equipped to search for this
> species, Hy-, so it too would have been inconclusive.
>
> Electrons, despite electrostatic repulsion, can display an equally
> strong and balancing magnetic attraction, and often will exhibit a
> very strong preference for pairing, as we know. This - even
> without Mills' CQM - is a most revealing and important
> observation. We might even go so far as to agree with Mills that
> the Bohr orbital is NOT the sole ground state, as is generally
> stated in physics textbooks, but instead is merely the first [of
> many redundant ground states] at which the electron and proton
> *can exist with unpaired electrons*, as opposed to paired. A
> further implication is that - for every Bohr atom at normal
> earth-ground-state,  in the Universe as a whole, there could
> possibly exist from 10 to 100 widely dispersed and 'cold' Hy-,
> which ARE then defined as 'dark matter' (or at least a major
> component thereof). This creates the situation of an inherent
> charge-bias across the Universe. Not to mention making fools of
> previous cosmology "experts" who are convinced they have it all
> figured out already.
>
> Does a charge bias, or inherent imbalance, seem to fly in the face
> of observation? is it theoretically even possible?  ... and before
> reflexively yelling NOT POSSIBLE!
>
> ...consider that "universal expansion" itself could be a relic of
> this inherent charge bias! We certainly have a charge-bias in
> earth's atmosphere, which varies in layers, and is most apparent
> as the so-called "fair weather field" but one of those layer may
> be caused by the solar wind containing lots of Hy- instead of what
> is normally envisioned = free electrons. Free solar electrons
> could be almost impossible in a situation where the Sun itself has
> an ever increasing positive charge bias from having already given
> up 5 billion years worth of Hy-. In contrast to free electrons,
> these Hy- can and do exit the corona by means of the 1837x greater
> kinetic momentum which they possess, compared with free electrons.
>
> At any rate, given the thermodynamics of the constant formation of
> hydrinos in the solar corona, we might further suspect that the
> average [most prevalent] hydrino paired orbital is near maximum
> entropy, of perhaps n=1/7 or 1/8 (if Robin's calcs are correct).
> See
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> however, I should add that Robin will likely disagree with parts
> of this speculation. It is ironic that perceptive folks, of all
> persuasion, can seldom agree on anything without first having the
> ferment of a previous, and vigorous, disagreement.
>
> The major spatial difference between hydrogen and hydrino is that
> in the same volume of a typical H2 molecule, upwards to 4000 of
> the solar Hy- would fit if they were not charged, but since the
> charge creates a strong near-field, the actual ability to coexist
> with normal matter is extremely doubtful at all, and is unknown
> (to anyone other than Mills, but his present inability to harness
> this species is probably meaningful). But that is not the
> end-of-story for using them elsewhere, even if making them on
> earth is too difficult. Stated another way, why buy the cow when
> the milk's free?
>
> OK, after this preamble (more like a pre-ramble <g>) we are back
> to the Hydrino Harvester (c). I have taken the liberty of
> copywriting this name and idea today for a number of reasons.
> Mills, despite his admitted genius, has a history of [occasional]
> plagiarizing the ideas of others without attribution. This
> continues today, as many corrections in his various revised
> versions of CQM resulted from the unacknowledged input from his
> critics: somewhat as 'punishment' it seems for their correct
> criticism, which makes it doubly wrong - but at least he does
> continue to make the necessary changes in that oeuvre ... but
> seldom with proper attribution. Ergo the (c).
>
> Anyway, if the Hy- is a real species, then what follows will be of
> great interest to NASA - and they should get it for free, rather
> than paying BLP for it (poetic justice). If we are ever going into
> interplanetary space, or even to colonize the moon, it would be of
> incredible benefit to "harvest" one of the most incredible
> propellants which is imaginable - and to do that by "farming" the
> ionosphere of earth. Coincidentally, this is spatial layer (one
> sublayer of it) is probably a gigantic but transitory repository
> for solar Hy-, as they are being continually temporarily captured,
> or slowed, by earth's magnetic field. Very few may actually get to
> earth's surface, although megatons arrive daily, are slowed and
> then continue on towards the Oort cloud and beyond.
>
> It makes sense that a magnetic, or electrostatic "Harvester" for
> these solar-derived hydrinos, placed into low earth-orbit, in a
> part of the ionosphere where NASA has never wanted to place
> satellites before (for the obvious reasons), could collect and
> "neutralize" Hy-s to then be used later for a propellant in
> interplanetary, or interstellar, exploration. IOW one might
> imagine several hundred relatively cheap robot harvesters, which
> contain permanent magnets, a supply of potassium to neutralize
> with, and an AI computer brain (son of X-box). After scavenging
> the ionosphere for a few weeks, the robot-collectors will
> rendezvous with a space-tanker and transfer the booty and go out
> again, powered by induction from the same materials they are
> capturing. Simple, on paper, no?
>
> Well, OK - if this doesn't pan out in practicality, it might be
> the premise for a good Sci-Fi tale --
>
> We might call it: "Just Say NO! : The Revolt of the Hy Robots" or
> something along those lines...
>
> Jones

Does'nt anybody want to talk about Jones' hydrino harvester idea.
There is a company called JP Aerospace that has an idea of
going to space in a balloon.  Sounds crazy.  Gets even better!
They plan an ascender of large size to climb to about 200,000
feet to an enormous derigible transfer station shaped like a star.
There whatever cargo is on the ascender will transfer at this 
station to the space ascender, an even larger and more flimsy
craft powered probably by solar electric propulsion.  This space
ascender would then leave and ascend in a slow circular pathway
gaining speed with each orbit, more so after leaving the last traces
of atmospheric friction for practical purposes.  Ultimately the 
space ascender should arrive at a true rigid space station in
space in synchronous orbit about 20,000 miles up.  From there
it would return for another load, taking with it anything needing
transport back to the surface.  They do this, possibilities are
endless.

This plan places all its parts at one time or another in this hydrino region, 
and all of these parts could take part in such a hydrino harvest.  This 
comment involving the use of others' technologies and ideas named above 
together in a useful and practical form is copyrighted by me, Lee M. 
Castleton,  USAF retired.   Parts of this idea involve projects and ideas 
that are copyrighted, patented or trademarked by others who own their 
respective projects and IP.  

It is sad that intellectual discourse has come to this, but the deep dyed
villains in this whole sordid affair of locking up science in a cocoon
of avarice are our senators and ex-vice-presidents who passed the
DMCA and other acts that have the net affect of debilitating our research 
abilities and  bringing a digital dark age to all the world except China,
Russia, North Korea, and many Muslim countries too numerous to 
name.  Those so called American politicians could not have done
a better job, even if they had been foreign agents, of making real the
precept of the ancient Chinese military general and philosopher
Sun Tzu:  "If you would defeat an enemy smarter than you, then you
must cause him not to think!"   I did not create this crazy world, but along 
with you all must
live in it.

Makes me wonder if some of these ideas may be among the thousands
that are locked up by the patent bureaus of many countries simply because
their governments evaluate them to be of military significance.




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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Standing Bear"

> There is a company called JP Aerospace that has an idea of
> going to space in a balloon.... This space
> ascender would then leave and ascend in a slow circular pathway
> gaining speed with each orbit, more so after leaving the last 
> traces
> of atmospheric friction for practical purposes.  Ultimately the
> space ascender should arrive at a true rigid space station in
> space in synchronous orbit about 20,000 miles up.  From there
> it would return for another load, taking with it anything 
> needing
> transport back to the surface.  They do this, possibilities are
> endless. This plan places all its parts at one time or another 
> in this hydrino region,
> and all of these parts could take part in such a hydrino 
> harvest.  This
> comment involving the use of others' technologies and ideas 
> named above
> together in a useful and practical form is copyrighted by me, 
> Lee M.
> Castleton,  USAF retired.


Very interesting, and thanks for putting this piece of the puzzle 
into place. If you are personally in contact with these 
individuals, I hope you will write them privately to express the 
same sentiment.

That 'puzzle', mentioned above being - how to get space 
exploration out of the hands of a top-heavy bureaucracy and 
perhaps into the hands of a nimble corporation or small wealthy 
country. If for no other reason - then to make it competitive by 
offering the lowest cost option. NASA is too focused on 
man-in-space, when instead, space is the perfect environment for 
artificial intelligence.

Actually several candidate countries come to mind - which are 
possessed with both a top-flight (pun intended) education system, 
a history of efficient and pragmatic government (desirous of 
international recognition) and most of all - wealth - particularly 
oil wealth. Norway would be one. Among companies - one would 
presently need to merge several types of corporate expertise - 
Virgin (Branson) with say Chevron and Intel.

I suspect that this concept, as complicated as it seems, could 
still be pulled-off in the short-term for the quarterly profit of 
Chevron - spread out over five years - if (BIG IF) the ionosphere 
can be harvested for solar hydrinos. Even if the supply is tinier 
than the optimists suspect - if there are any at all, that 
resource could be put together as a step in yet a bigger package - 
one that would put a population of micro-robotic drones on the 
moon - to harvest lunar 3He, a proven resource, and then that 
would be another step-wise wrinkle in a more complicated hybrid 
system.

I don't see the JP "balloon thing" as being very advantageous, 
otherwise; unless there is this kind of "harvestable" propellant 
in the ionosphere.

And BTW - I'm sure Robin has been thinking about hydrino-induced 
fusion more than I have, but the Hy+3He reaction would seen to be 
a "natural" (or Hy + 11B, or Hy + 7Li) given the very small atomic 
size of the type of solar hydrino-hydride, hypothesized in the 
original post (i.e. N= 1/7 or 1/8) should they be in the 
ionosphere. You could probably get to breakeven fusion levels with 
those using a device as small as a Farnsworth Fusor ... Needless 
to say, any type of breakeven fusion in a small device in the 
ionosphere - using air buoyancy to shuttle smaller payloads up 
with reusable gear - that almost guarantees the availability of 
lunar payloads for about cost of terrestrial rail transport - 
seriously: pennies per pound instead of hundreds of dollars per 
pound.

Hey, Branson may be the man ... if can step-back from his numerous 
overload of involvements, and focus on what is needed in the 
big-picture for private space exploration. He says that it is his 
number-one priority.

Jones



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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <weir fdscience.org>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Standing Bear" <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; "Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)


> There is a company called JP Aerospace that has an idea of
> going to space in a balloon.

Hmmm.... odd....

....I wouldn't mind flying an Orion. As long as its got good shocks. Very 
high thrust, and very high Isp. Launch it from Antarctica, no one there to 
scream "not in my back yard".

WHAM...WHAM...WHAM...WHAM...Orbit.

--Kyle 

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BlankHowdy Vorts,

Alas!! NASA and aerospace introduced with their attendant bureaucratic =
bumbling ang bungling. Did you notice that Boeing was  "edged out" of =
the latest contract with NASA in favor of Lockheed- Martin.

Ummm .. lets see.. that means a total regime change at NASA with a new =
contractor.. as profound as it would be if KBR were replaced by another =
contractor in Iraq.  All this means that energy, space exploration, =
science etc is not the driving force.. money and power is the driving =
force.

Washington...  where it is not nearly as important to win .. as it is to =
make sure the other guy loses. What a philosophy.

Richard


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<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Alas!! NASA and aerospace introduced with their attendant =
bureaucratic=20
bumbling ang bungling. Did you notice that Boeing was&nbsp; "edged out" =
of the=20
latest contract with NASA in favor of Lockheed- Martin.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ummm .. lets see.. that means a total regime change at NASA with a =
new=20
contractor.. as profound as it would be if KBR were replaced by another=20
contractor in Iraq.&nbsp; All this means that energy, space exploration, =
science=20
etc is not the driving force.. money and power is the driving =
force.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Washington...&nbsp; where it is not nearly as important to win .. =
as it is=20
to make sure the other guy loses. What a philosophy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:03:15 -0500
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle lakeside1.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
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On Sunday 29 October 2006 14:37, Jones Beene wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Standing Bear"
>
> > There is a company called JP Aerospace that has an idea of
> > going to space in a balloon.... This space
> > ascender would then leave and ascend in a slow circular pathway
> > gaining speed with each orbit, more so after leaving the last
> > traces
> > of atmospheric friction for practical purposes.  Ultimately the
> > space ascender should arrive at a true rigid space station in
> > space in synchronous orbit about 20,000 miles up.  From there
> > it would return for another load, taking with it anything
> > needing
> > transport back to the surface.  They do this, possibilities are
> > endless. This plan places all its parts at one time or another
> > in this hydrino region,
> > and all of these parts could take part in such a hydrino
> > harvest.  This
> > comment involving the use of others' technologies and ideas
> > named above
> > together in a useful and practical form is copyrighted by me,
> > Lee M.
> > Castleton,  USAF retired.
>
> Very interesting, and thanks for putting this piece of the puzzle
> into place. If you are personally in contact with these
> individuals, I hope you will write them privately to express the
> same sentiment.
>
> That 'puzzle', mentioned above being - how to get space
> exploration out of the hands of a top-heavy bureaucracy and
> perhaps into the hands of a nimble corporation or small wealthy
> country. If for no other reason - then to make it competitive by
> offering the lowest cost option. NASA is too focused on
> man-in-space, when instead, space is the perfect environment for
> artificial intelligence.
>
> Actually several candidate countries come to mind - which are
> possessed with both a top-flight (pun intended) education system,
> a history of efficient and pragmatic government (desirous of
> international recognition) and most of all - wealth - particularly
> oil wealth. Norway would be one. Among companies - one would
> presently need to merge several types of corporate expertise -
> Virgin (Branson) with say Chevron and Intel.
>
> I suspect that this concept, as complicated as it seems, could
> still be pulled-off in the short-term for the quarterly profit of
> Chevron - spread out over five years - if (BIG IF) the ionosphere
> can be harvested for solar hydrinos. Even if the supply is tinier
> than the optimists suspect - if there are any at all, that
> resource could be put together as a step in yet a bigger package -
> one that would put a population of micro-robotic drones on the
> moon - to harvest lunar 3He, a proven resource, and then that
> would be another step-wise wrinkle in a more complicated hybrid
> system.
>
> I don't see the JP "balloon thing" as being very advantageous,
> otherwise; unless there is this kind of "harvestable" propellant
> in the ionosphere.
>
> And BTW - I'm sure Robin has been thinking about hydrino-induced
> fusion more than I have, but the Hy+3He reaction would seen to be
> a "natural" (or Hy + 11B, or Hy + 7Li) given the very small atomic
> size of the type of solar hydrino-hydride, hypothesized in the
> original post (i.e. N= 1/7 or 1/8) should they be in the
> ionosphere. You could probably get to breakeven fusion levels with
> those using a device as small as a Farnsworth Fusor ... Needless
> to say, any type of breakeven fusion in a small device in the
> ionosphere - using air buoyancy to shuttle smaller payloads up
> with reusable gear - that almost guarantees the availability of
> lunar payloads for about cost of terrestrial rail transport -
> seriously: pennies per pound instead of hundreds of dollars per
> pound.
>
> Hey, Branson may be the man ... if can step-back from his numerous
> overload of involvements, and focus on what is needed in the
> big-picture for private space exploration. He says that it is his
> number-one priority.
>
> Jones

JP Aerospace has their own website: jpaerospace.com.  They bill
themselves as "America's ..other.. space program.  They got a 
contract from the government to build a ground takeoff ascender
prototype as a model for the real thing if a contract for it materialized.
They actually have a working ascender about ninety feet long and
about a hundred feet wide in the shape of a 'V'.  A picture of it is
on their site.  Positively dwarfs people standing next to it.  Of course
the real thing would be an order of magnitude larger.
   My worry about the hydrino if it existed arises from the idea that
energy, like manure, rolls down hill.  Energy always seeks the down
ward path from a higher energy level to a lower.  From previous
descriptions by Randall Mills in Vortex and on his site, the production
of hydrinos is accompanied by a hugely exothermic reaction greater
than any chemical reaction yet a bit less than nuclear thermal output
weight for weight of reagents involved.  This would lead one to believe
that given that our planet is a ...water...planet and has a ...lot...of 
hydrogen, such a reaction if it got started on this planet would have
converted us to a kind of small star for a while on our way to becoming
a dead cinder a long time ago and we would not be contemplating
our navels here about it.  So making hydrinos must be a little harder
than Mills has admitted.  Other than that, hydrinos would make excellent
rocket fuel, as was found out by a Dr Marchese at Rowan University
when NIAC funded a phase I study of a 'Black Light Rocket'.  A final
report was issued,  but no further public work was done on something
that ought to have been a natural for fuel for a Star Trek type of one
stage to orbit shuttle craft.  Possibly it was a good experiment and 
government officials, most of them with large industry backgrounds,
buried it out of fear that the world would change if this was developed
and their old industry buddies would be out of a job,  not being able
to sell expensive failure prone junk for astronomical prices to Uncle
Sucker.  
        The same job was done on the Tactical High Energy Laser,
a truck mounted laser capable of  bringing down artillery shells and 
small 'manpads' that would have saved lives in Israel in the last
dustup they had with their religious fanatic jihadist friends last summer.
The THEL was quietly shelved in favor of expensive failure prone
one-shot-oops-I-missed-spend-another-million-dollars-Harry 'anti-missiles'.
The dirty secret of these Patriot missiles and just about every other
'anti-missile- missiles is that they do not work most of the time except
to back up propaganda for more government sales.  A laser like the
THEL and its stepchild the 'Skyguard', a civilian airport version of the
same can aim and shoot at the speed of light.  It sees it, it kills it;  end 
of story, period.  No misses, and even if it did, a reload is just a recharge
away.  With good design those re-charge times can be minimised.
There is also the Free Electron Laser being worked on by the HasyLab
in Deutschland.  This jewel now is being developed to put out over a
hundred thousand watts of steady state lasing power.  The only reason
these projects have been shelved or delayed can only be to benefit
some alternative system whose intellectual property is owned by
monopoly interests. 
      Good point about the helium three.  The Chinese are working on going
to the moon to get it.  They get there first and they will lay territorial 
claim to as much of it as they can.  With enough nuclear warheads in
MIRV configuration to back up this land grab, I would say that the Americans
are in a nuclear space race whether they like it or not, AND whether our
President wants to admit it or not.  The stakes are nothing less than whether
you and I want our grandchildren to live under Chinese hegemony.  A political
leader that did not realize this would have to be a fool or a 'Manchurian
Candidate'.  I have a grandson who will be military age in a few years, and
shudder to think that he may end up on a military front line crossing Asia
from Vladivostok to Tashkent with we Americans and our allies the Russians toe
to toe with 75 million Chinese Army troops screaming for our blood.  Unlimited
energy from helium three would make them strong, and there are ...other...
shortages in their country.......water.....food......strategic 
minerals...............and the shortages are.......growing.    
   There is an American space program critic from the University of Hawaii 
that calls himself a 'recovering space cadet'.  He does not miss any 
opportunity to criticize our space program.  He wants us to drop it 
altogether, often coming up with reasons that only could be gotten from 
inside information from sources within the present administration.  The 
current actions of NASA seem to reflect these policies.  Like taking two 
years of fruitless investigation with no action to improve safety of our 
shuttle fleet, then sending them back with minimal changes.  Its almost like 
the government is hoping for another disaster so that they CAN drop the 
program and abdicate their responsibility to the American people.
     This 'critic' goes about his 'rocket equation' with all the tenacity of
a crank, and can see no further than the same tiresome chemical rockets
that we have been using for decades.  Rest assured that some large
power like China that has demonstrated having no compunction for
slaughtering its critics at home will also have no compunction for using
nuclear thermal propulsion as main propulsion for its earth boosters
if it needed some extra lift and more payload space per craft.  And
here we sit with some technologies like the Shawson device and appear
to do nothing about it.  I know that political rants are not really what
this list is all about, but some it this is inseparable from the very things
we like to look into.  I am just saying out loud what many people
must be also thinking.  The shuttle needs safety.  We should make it
safe.  Better propulsion systems could possible use the same spaceframe.
Can you think of a black light booster set in the place of the shuttle main
engines.  Get us from earth to orbit to mars and back on one re-fueling!
Would'nt have to drop that big tank!  Just take it to mars and back and
park it at the space station.  Trip ought to take less than a couple of 
months!  And that is just one idea.
   JP Aerospace's system could also be used to provide transport to build
in space a large interplanetary exploration ship with its own internal gravity
to take us anywhere in this system to prospect for minerals, helium three,
or whatever we wanted.

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <rockcastle lakeside1.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 21:58:38 -0800
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Standing Bear"

>  making hydrinos must be a little harder  than Mills has 
> admitted.

That is becoming clear and it should be obvious why that would be 
so -- for the simple reason that it requires *free atomic 
hydrogen* to exist in proximity to extremely hot catalyst ions for 
a fairly substantial time period (relative to the normal 
time-frame that hydrogen would remain free and unionized). The 
"relative" part comes into play because - and this may be 
important even though you have never heard it stated this way: the 
catalyst ion with a net positive charge will still have a negative 
near-field, since the ion is still surrounded by many electrons... 
which will repel the near-field of atomic hydrogen in a cool 
plasma. And if the plasma is hot enough to propel the oncoming H 
past this near-field barrier - then that plasma is generally hot 
enough to have already ionized the H atom instead. See the 
problem?

Think about free atomic hydrogen. Not protons. Not H2 molecules. 
Not hydrogen ions of any variety - ONLY neutral atomic hydrogen 
will do. And all of these hydrogen species are far more likely to 
turn up in a warm plasma than free atomic hydrogen. If the plasma 
is hotter you get protons and if it is colder you get either 
molecules or molecular ions but almost never (percentage wise) do 
you find the necessary "raw material" for this reaction on earth 
(except perhaps within a metal matrix ;-) These parameters make it 
the rarest of the rare situation here - but not in the solar 
corona, where parameters may be much more favorable ?? who knows 
but in fact there could be several pathways for them to form in 
those conditions. With the intense gravitation, hydrino=hydrides 
may form easily in one step from a flux of protons and tightly 
paired electrons. Many observers tend to agree with Mills' 
assessment that a large fraction of the heat of the sun is due to 
this reaction - rather than to the complex fusion pathway as is 
generally accepted, and that explains the solar neutrino problem 
better than the kludges which are now resorted to.

I'm pretty sure that the first stage reaction for hydrinos is also 
far more reversible (re-inflation)than Mills admits-to; and that 
the production of useful quantities of hydrinos on earth may be 
hopeless. After burning through $50 million, RM has a couple of 
vials full, but that is not going to provide cheap energy or 
anything else,

Until NASA finds out for sure what the solar wind consists-of ... 
as it enters the ionosphere - we will not know if there is any 
chance of using this potentially gigantic resource. To repeat a 
lament which has been expressed here before: Seven years after 
launch, NASA's "Stardust" space capsule returned recently with a 
bit of comet debris. Will they even look for hydrinos? They are 
probably in there - from the Oort cloud. At least the parachute 
opened this time, already giving Stardust more success than  its 
predecessor - the "Genesis" solar wind  mission last year, which 
crashed in Utah after its chute failed to open. Dammit. Many 
observers really wanted to know if there are substantial hydrinos 
in the solar wind or not - but no one is sure if NASA is even 
prepared or equipped to look for them.

OTOH - since we know from the aftermath of the Rowan work for NASA 
which you mentioned that some key people at NASA do have an 
appreciation for this - there is always the possibility that the 
whole story about the "failure" of the "Genesis" solar wind 
mission last year was invented or exaggerated as part of a secrecy 
plan - so that they would not alert our enemies and competitors 
(China, USSR, and maybe even the Euros) that they did find a 
"harvestable" resource.

Jones

... Sorry for that last paragraph. How could anyone be so cynical 
of Governmental motives?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 29 22:02:56 2006
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:01:39 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Original OU?
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Civilization? 
It hasn't happened yet.

Harry

Philip Winestone wrote:

> 
> Anyone looking at the cave paintings in Lascaux, from 15000 years ago, then
> looking at the Chauve-Pont-D'arc paintings from about 30000 years ago, may
> see that the older paintings were far "better" than the newer ones (which
> were quite superb), leading us (well - me, that is) to believe that there
> was a high degree of civilization somewhere on Earth, before the Egyptian
> one - a mere 4000 years ago - than current dogma lets us believe.
> 
> P.

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Subject: [Vo]: Ohmori authors book chapter
Status: O
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New Topics in Electrochemistry Research

https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4254


2. Anomalous Reactions Induced by Light and Heavy Water Electrolysis; 
PP. 47-84
(Tadayoshi Ohmori, Hokkaido Institute Technology, Japan)

- Jed


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:11:21 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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I'm finally home and starting to take care of the accumulated action 
items.  First on the list is the address where you should send your 
travel receipts.

Bob Towsley
3906 Belle Rive Ter.
Alexandria, VA 22309

I got a contract offer from World Scientific to publish the book, which 
I'm considering. After it arrives, I would like you to take a look 
before I sign it. Meanwhile, I'm going to add more to the book as you 
and others have suggested.

Thanks to the meeting, which was excellent, I have a whole new crop of 
experiments to try. Between the book and the lab, I should have very 
little free time. However, let me know when you and Mizuno wish to 
visit. I would love to show you what you bought and the experiments I 
have planned.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> New Topics in Electrochemistry Research
> 
> https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4254
> 
> 
> 2. Anomalous Reactions Induced by Light and Heavy Water Electrolysis; 
> PP. 47-84
> (Tadayoshi Ohmori, Hokkaido Institute Technology, Japan)
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 07:30:26 2006
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Subject: [Vo]: Greenest of the Green
Status: O
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Fess-up, Detroit: where are you?

In automotive, it's no longer the Prius, but it is still "from" 
Japan.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/awards.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid&Num=0

I should say the design only is from Japan. Honda's six US 
factories generally have higher quality ratings then their 
Japanese counterparts. Part of that due to the fact the factories 
are newer, the work force is slightly younger, the unions not as 
hostile - but mostly due to top-down brainpower... which sadly, is 
lacking from Detroit. 

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:10:05 -0800
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Status: O
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> hydrogen would remain free and unionized.

Ha! should be un-ionized, unless hydrogen is orgainizing; or going 
into labor ;-{


But after cogitating on the overall situation of 'how to harvest' 
(if, that is, the putative solar wind derived Hy- is available in 
sufficient quantities) there is an obvious solution. BTW we may 
already have the visible proof of hydrinos and never have really 
appreciated it (Thanks to Alfven himself)  ...

OK first - the balloon idea - forget it; it is a waste of time - 
as are normal satellite-robots.

One does not need to put anything into orbit. A ballon for this 
task "will not fly" as they are needed in polar regions. 
Curiously, we can even now, as we speak, view the ripe harvestable 
"field" and have historically already given it a name: Aurora 
borealis. Yes the "Northern Lights" as we know are caused by the 
interaction between the solar wind and ionospehre, that is we know 
for certain - and what we can only guess at is that this phenomena 
is caused in part by the Hy- species itself. The Hy- interacts as 
the Earth's magnetic field and then deflects into the upper 
atmosphere, where ionized air interacts with the wind for a 
fleeting instant as it passes by. Very little is captured. There 
are apparently some controversial spectrographic lines documanted 
in the Aurorae (more on that later) which were detected some time 
ago and given assignmetns which did not "look right".

A similar effect happens in the southern hemisphere where it is 
known as the aurora Australis. If those lines are due to the 
hydrino, then we may already have the proof needed - but no one 
really knew then what they were. I do not think that even Mills 
knows about this today. And in another synchonicity, one of Hannes 
Alfven's fifty year old books is in a personal collection which I 
have access to.

The Purple/violet streaks are the ones of interest - only 60 miles 
in altitude. It is fortuitous that the higher energy streaks are 
the lowest in altitude. BTW, there is 20 million amperes at 50,000 
volts of continuous power in these lines, spread over a large 
area - which can also power the harvester itself by induction, and 
consequently it can be a reusable vehicle closer to an airplane 
than a satellite; and need not be "launched" at all. The harvester 
can be towed up to 3 or 4 miles in altitude by a tanker, and then 
use a monopropellant to blast up to 60 miles for a single 
harvesting pass of around a thousand mile loop, then return and 
land conventionally at a special landing strip in Alaska, give up 
the cargo, refuel and do it all over again - several trips per 
day. Tons per day are possible.

This is doable. There is no need for high-tech ballons, nor for 
expensive satellites. Branson could pull this-off out of pocket 
change (almost ;-)

Jones 

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Subject: [Vo]: Arata to receive national award
Status: O
X-Status: 

The Japanese government announced this year's 5 winners of the Order 
of Cultural Merit (Bunka Kunsho) include Yoshiaki Arata for his 
contributions to high temperature industrial techniques and because 
he was the first person in Japan to observe a fusion reaction. There 
is no mention in the newspaper accounts that he has been working on 
cold fusion for the past 15 plus years. The prize will be awarded by 
the Emperor on November 3, 2006.

I do not know much about this, but I gather it is the second most 
prestigious prize in Japan, after the Nobel. It seems they usually 
give it to people who are about to drop off the twig. Arata is 82 and 
the average age of this year's recipients is 86.0 according to the Nikkei.

In Japanese, see:

http://www.nikkei.co.jp/news/shakai/20061027AT1G2701027102006.html

- Jed


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Subject: [Vo]: Steve Jones despises cold fusion
Status: O
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Here is a message I sent to Robert Park.

You wrote:

>Jones has now agree to retire.
>  This isn't his first trip into delusion.  Seventeen years ago his
>  delusion of geologic cold fusion got Pons and Fleischmann at the
>  U. of Utah started on a cold fusion delusion of their own.

That is incorrect. Pons and Fleischmann were unaware of Jones' work. 
They did not and still do not think Jones' neutron claims are valid, 
and these claims have never been replicated as far as I know. Jones 
has campaigned against Fleischmann and Pons from the beginning, he 
denies there has been any excess heat effects, and he has attacked 
and belittled Fleischmann, Pons, Miles, McKubre and many other 
researchers even more often than you have. See, for example:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/JonesSEchasingano.pdf

I know nothing about Jones' Twin Towers claims, and I would not try 
to judge them without reading a technical article, but from the 
newspaper accounts I have the impression that they are absurd. It 
would not surprise me to learn that he has reached an absurd and 
totally unsupported conclusion that flies in the face of the 
evidence, the scientific method, and common sense, because that is 
what he did with cold fusion for 18 years nonstop. When a person's 
judgement is flawed about one subject, it is likely that he is wrong 
about other things as well. Not certain, but likely.

To paraphrase G. K. Chesteron, when people stop believing in 
replicated, peer-reviewed experiments published in mainstream 
journals, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything. 
That is Jones' problem, and yours.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Original OU?
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Or you can perhaps entertain the theory that human evolution is not the 
commonly-accepted straight line trend from the ape until now, at which time 
we modern-day humans are at the supreme end-point (all of us) of millions 
of years of positive evolution.  And there's more to come... In fact 
so-called evolution  may be like virtually all natural occurrences in that 
it comes and goes in very large cycles.  Take a look around you and try to 
figure out where exactly we are right now in the "evolutionary cycle," 
without placing too much emphasis on our "toys."

It could be that the pyramids were in place well before the Egyptians took 
them over as "interesting" burial places.  So the idea of the "major 
explosion in technology" in ancient Egypt may not be a reasonable 
fact.  Question of course is, what would have promoted this explosion of 
technology?

Anyone looking at the cave paintings in Lascaux, from 15000 years ago, then 
looking at the Chauve-Pont-D'arc paintings from about 30000 years ago, may 
see that the older paintings were far "better" than the newer ones (which 
were quite superb), leading us (well - me, that is) to believe that there 
was a high degree of civilization somewhere on Earth, before the Egyptian 
one - a mere 4000 years ago - than current dogma lets us believe.

P.




At 08:58 AM 10/28/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Before anyone starts to take what follows too seriously, let me say that 
>it is offered in the "spirit of the season" shall we say. That season 
>being the rather irrational season around Halloween with its ties to the 
>ancient Celts and even to the Egyptians. Hey - I am trying to avoid 
>pumpkin-carving by pretending to be "at work" ....
>
>I have to add this caveat, because many normally perceptive individuals 
>tend to go a little gaga about the Egyptians (or the Celts) and their 
>accomplishments. You know... "lost knowledge" and all of that. Don't get 
>me wrong - in the context of what came before, it is almost like the a 
>major explosion in technology took place around the start of the 4th 
>Dynasty, leading many to invent all kinds of hypotheses for that - like 
>"alien" contact and so on. You can buy into the concept of lost knowledge 
>without going all the way to alien-contact, but hey... this time of year, 
>anything goes.
>
>Let's don't even go there, at least not precisely all the way to aliens... 
>but instead consider a minor detail of the Pyramid of Cheops - that being 
>the shafts leading from the so-called King's and Queen's chambers. But 
>that in the context of putative "free energy". Here is some good detail:
>
>http://www.cheops.org/startpage/thefindings/thefindings.htm
>
>... and I will not go into the various theories regarding the function of 
>the shafts as passageways for the soul etc, except to say that when 
>discovered, two of them were heavily filled with soot. However, there does 
>seem to be a strange Cartouche next to one shaft which translates to the 
>equivalent of "hyperfine" .... ;-)
>
>Right. Well, in this context, one must introduce the ancient phenomenon of 
>the "eternal flame" or the "ever-burning lamp" (the original genie's lamp) 
>--- the importance of which symbol and the proven relics thereof cannot be 
>over-emphasized to the mentality of ancient people. The ever-burning lamp 
>was a daily miracle to them - a goal of pilgrimage and a gift from 
>divinity ... especially considering the importance of fire - to early 
>civilization.
>
>Unfortunately, the archaeology often gets mixed up with other things, as 
>is the case of Ms. Lloyd here:
>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=12801
>
>...but anyway, in a few of the dozens of ancient sites where eternal 
>flames were known to have been going, apparently unattended, and of course 
>worshipped, there has been the prevalent hypothesis that the source of 
>flame was a slow underground seepage of natural gas. This source kept the 
>flames going for centuries, it is said. Many of these were located in 
>caves in areas which have some hydrocarbon geology - and we all know the 
>stories of "coal gas" in the Appalachians of the USA. This explanation is 
>bolstered by the fact that some lamps were extinguished after earthquakes.
>
>Anyway - back to the shafts in the Pyramid of Cheops, where of course 
>there is no underground seepage of natural gas, or coal, and any priest 
>who was carrying a secret lamp-refill would have been easily spotted ... 
>consequently - one might be justified to consider whether the shafts 
>themselves could somehow capture of focus a hidden source of energy, which 
>might be involved in either augmenting slow combustion or perhaps in 
>powering a natural iridescence or certain minerals ... or both.
>
>(assuming that these were not the lamps of early grave robbers - or of the 
>craftsmen finishing the work, which is the mundane explanation, which we 
>want to avoid at all costs during this special season of alternative 
>reality <g>)
>
>Anyway, I will leave the "trick-or-treat" answer up to your imagination, 
>with the hint that if you look closely at the dimensions of the shafts - 
>it seems that they were trying to make them pretty close to 21 cm on a 
>side. They might have been lined with gold or brass at one time, which 
>would have stripped-away by a later Dynasty to pay the bills. The 
>dimensions are not precise, but perhaps they were good enough for 
>'Pharaoh-work' ... as the slaves used to say back then.
>
>Jones


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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:17:56 -0800
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Robin

> Actually, there is no need for any technology at all. What
> hydrinos there are will eventually come down in the rain. All 
> you
> have to do is collect the rain water.

This is possible, sure, but lately it is seeming less likely that 
they would appear in PPM quantities in water, or even PPB 
quantities. The relative percentage is most important if they are 
to become an energy resource. I'm surprised you didn't mention the 
"faux-D" possibility, or were you waiting for the proper segue?

Look at heavy water. Heavy water is rather pricey already - and 
deuterium in water may be hundreds of times more common than 
hydrinos. In fact, for those who have not heard of Robin's 
hypothesis - it is clearly possible that some of the deuterium 
which is there already - either came from hydrinos originally, or 
IS hydrino-based rather than a real neutron, as the small 
differences in physical properties would be barely discernable, 
except perhaps that the hydrino-based faux-D is the kind of 
deuterium which is more easily stipped, as in the 
Oppenheimer-Phillips reaction. But that is most like a tiny 
percentabe of all deuterium - so the cost would likely be ... 
err... "astronomical" ?

It is the scarcity and the cost of enrichment which could make the 
Hydrino Harvester attractive, as an alternative. Even having to go 
up 60 miles in the polar regions to accomplish this - as expensive 
as that is - it could easily be the low cost option - who knows 
without more data ?

Very thorough mass spec measurements have regualry taken on water 
from amny areas since the cold war, especially rain water, to look 
for traces of atomic bomb testing and other things in PPB 
quantities, and there would likely have been some indication from 
that kind of very thorough testing, if much were to be found, 
outside of the faux-D possibility. The more you research this kind 
of thing; the less likely it appears that affordable quantities 
are available in rain water- quantities which can be enriched at a 
cost comparable to that of tritium for instance.

Jones


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:38:18 +1100
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:03:15
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Can you think of a black light booster set in the place of the shuttle main
>engines.  Get us from earth to orbit to mars and back on one re-fueling!
>Would'nt have to drop that big tank!  Just take it to mars and back and
>park it at the space station.  Trip ought to take less than a couple of 
>months!  And that is just one idea.
>   JP Aerospace's system could also be used to provide transport to build
>in space a large interplanetary exploration ship with its own internal gravity
>to take us anywhere in this system to prospect for minerals, helium three,
>or whatever we wanted.

If we had that much control over the Blacklight process, we
wouldn't need the He3.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c)
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:10:05
-0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>than a satellite; and need not be "launched" at all. The harvester 
>can be towed up to 3 or 4 miles in altitude by a tanker, and then 
>use a monopropellant to blast up to 60 miles for a single 
>harvesting pass of around a thousand mile loop, then return and 
>land conventionally at a special landing strip in Alaska, give up 
>the cargo, refuel and do it all over again - several trips per 
>day. Tons per day are possible.
>
>This is doable. There is no need for high-tech ballons, nor for 
>expensive satellites. Branson could pull this-off out of pocket 
>change (almost ;-)
[snip]
Actually, there is no need for any technology at all. What
hydrinos there are will eventually come down in the rain. All you
have to do is collect the rain water.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 29 Oct 2006 21:58:38
-0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>OTOH - since we know from the aftermath of the Rowan work for NASA 
>which you mentioned that some key people at NASA do have an 
>appreciation for this - there is always the possibility that the 
>whole story about the "failure" of the "Genesis" solar wind 
>mission last year was invented or exaggerated as part of a secrecy 
>plan - so that they would not alert our enemies and competitors 
>(China, USSR, and maybe even the Euros) that they did find a 
>"harvestable" resource.
[snip]
If they did, and they told everyone, then many of the World's
problems would be resolved, and with that, many of the tensions
that exist between nations. No tensions => no enemies.
Besides, China and the USSR (???) are not really enemies, they are
just portrayed that way to take our attention off our own leaders.
In fact the people of the USA have no real enemies. Your
government OTOH does. Beware of your own government trying to
paint their enemies as yours.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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http://www.steorn.net/en/results.aspx?p=5

I don't get it.  Why is widdershins different from clockwise?

Terry

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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:57:34 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum gmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Test
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Gee, a magnetic gradient creates torque.  Who would have thought?

:-)

Terry

On 10/31/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.steorn.net/en/results.aspx?p=5
>
> I don't get it.  Why is widdershins different from clockwise?
>
> Terry
>
>

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Subject: [Vo]: GM Finally Gets It
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http://tinyurl.com/ygz84y

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061028/AUTO01/610280360/1148

GM technology going 'green' to challenge Toyota

Automaker will make hydrogen-powered fuel cell and hybrid-electric
vehicles in near future.

Jeff Green / Bloomberg News

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp., losing sales to Toyota Motor Corp.,
will use some of the $9 billion in savings from cost cuts this year to
make vehicles that match the Japanese automaker in technology and fuel
efficiency, according to people familiar with the strategy.

GM's plans include a hybrid-electric vehicle with a battery that
recharges at any outlet, improved gasoline engines, hybrid versions of
its Silverado pickup trucks and hydrogen-powered fuel cell models that
emit only water vapor, according to sources, who didn't want to be
identified because the plan isn't public.

<more>

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Subject: [Vo]: Beyond Petroleum
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Does anyone know what is happenin' with BP?  Their share price is near
it's year low, they have closed their pay online site, and they are no
longer taking applications for gas credit cards.

Odd.

Terry