From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 00:09:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA189WnW008922; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 00:09:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA189Ua6008859; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 00:09:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 00:09:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GGeHVpUkEXtwnWe5wRe84rPq31NXUjVPw6Z4V7s+1UpgbSjRRa37avDkzd3uUF1L; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611318913169 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 01:09:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ef7d656739051d402b5f04f0a01844c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.20 Resent-Message-ID: <02Z5wC.A.IKC.5YFSFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Trenches vs the Solar Tower Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Using a trench with septic drain field gravel surrounding a pipeline containing a layer of anhydrous ammonia on the bottom (like a sewer line) with about 250 psig vapor pressure covered with a transparent material such as glass or Teflon at grade level anchored by rock or dirt on the "berms" between trenches could power expansion engines exhausting into radiative or convective condensing "fields", with an ammonia condensate return pump could generate kilowatts to gigawatts around the clock at a cost of less than $0.50 per watt on the larger sized plants. In hill country the pipe could have an annular internal wick to attain uniform wetting, and counter vapor flow entrainment. Sounds like a heat pipe doesn't it? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Using a trench with septic drain field gravel surrounding
a pipeline containing a layer of anhydrous ammonia on the
bottom (like a sewer line) with  about 250 psig vapor pressure
covered with a transparent material such as glass or Teflon
at grade level anchored by rock or dirt on the "berms" between
trenches could power expansion engines exhausting into
radiative or convective condensing "fields", with an ammonia
condensate return pump could generate kilowatts to gigawatts around the
clock at a cost of less than $0.50 per watt on the larger sized
plants.
 
In hill country the pipe could have an annular internal wick
to attain uniform wetting, and counter vapor flow entrainment.
 
Sounds like a heat pipe doesn't it?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 05:10:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA1DA6be012362; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 05:10:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA1D6s69009910; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 05:06:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 05:06:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000801c6fdb6$90f41bb0$5b037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-2200611318913169 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:06:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6FD84.445CCA40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Solar-Thermal Trenches vs the Solar Tower Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6FD84.445CCA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred wrote, >Using a trench with septic drain field gravel surrounding a pipeline containing a layer of anhydrous ammonia on the bottom (like a sewer line) with about 250 psig vapor pressure covered with a transparent material such as glass or Teflon at grade level anchored by rock or dirt on the "berms" between trenches could power expansion engines exhausting into radiative or convective condensing "fields", with an ammonia condensate return pump could generate kilowatts to gigawatts around = the clock at a cost of less than $0.50 per watt on the larger sized plants. In hill country the pipe could have an annular internal wick to attain uniform wetting, and counter vapor flow entrainment. Sounds like a heat pipe doesn't it? Howdy Fred, Sounds like a 1930 model Kelvinator gas refrigerator without the = icemaker. An idea like this is not as "magical" as a 3000 ft "Tower of Drivel" Just imagine a tower that rises above the heavens.. the next thing you = know our common language will be "confused". After the tower has operated for 25 years, it could be brought down = with explosives while seats to watch would sell for $ 500 per, = television rights for 2 bil and change. Fred, The pipeline trench idea just ain't got no appeal , too plain = and practical... never raise the financing.. folks want "pizzazz" when = they spend their money.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6FD84.445CCA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred wrote,

>Using a trench with = septic drain=20 field gravel surrounding
a pipeline containing a = layer of=20 anhydrous ammonia on the
bottom (like a sewer line) = with =20 about 250 psig vapor pressure
covered with a transparent = material=20 such as glass or Teflon
at grade level anchored by = rock or dirt=20 on the "berms" between
trenches could power = expansion engines=20 exhausting into
radiative or convective = condensing=20 "fields", with an ammonia
condensate return pump could generate kilowatts = to gigawatts=20 around the
clock at a cost = of less than $0.50 per watt on the = larger=20 sized
plants.
 
In hill country the pipe = could have an=20 annular internal wick
to attain uniform wetting, = and counter=20 vapor flow entrainment.
 
Sounds like a heat pipe = doesn't=20 it?
 
 
 
Howdy Fred,
 
Sounds like a 1930 model = Kelvinator gas=20 refrigerator without the icemaker.
An idea like this is not as = "magical"=20 as a 3000 ft "Tower of Drivel"
 
Just imagine a tower that = rises above=20 the heavens.. the next thing you know our common language will be=20 "confused".
 
After the tower has = operated for 25=20 years, it could be brought down with explosives while seats to watch = would=20 sell for $ 500 per, television rights for 2 bil and = change.
Fred, The pipeline trench = idea just=20 ain't got no appeal , too plain and practical... never raise the = financing..=20 folks want "pizzazz" when they spend their money.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C6FD84.445CCA40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 08:00:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA1FxnFT005481; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:59:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA1FxkOO005444; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:59:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:59:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE; b=XYH4H+mWVnFgZ+rF19e1CDnXq6BBSVOLz9pn/CAMmpKx12hBuX3sA9JK3tjgtqCSqQjQF/JSDGafX20YEP8N8n3tiGvoPeZiOhLzSxj1Nso4stKsWX2pfCW2wFxvWPY/NI6hMvWJh5y1ETy+G4yixf+elgnvdZhmwpIsyGFFKXU= ; Message-ID: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:59:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: It goes without saying that detailed speculation about an unproven and controversial subject (i.e. below-ground-state hydrogen) which departs significantly from both mainstream thinking and also from the theory of the R Mills, who has a corps of dedicated 'evangelists' himself, is not going to make the speculator very popular with any group. Hey, they don't call us "grumpy old men" for nothin' ... But ... if there is even a grain of truth underlying Mills CQM, which insight can be improved-on, then it behooves anyone with both a scientific curiosity and a dedication to see a better future for our society - which far exceeds common expectations - to strive to paint a more accurate picture by integrating everything we know about the universe into a coherent alternative viewpoint. Much has been written about Sol, the sun - and the mechanism for its continuous energy output over billions of years. Most of that traditional explanation is partly true and partly in error or incomplete, which is to say - in error because of the incompleteness. The situation is far more complex than textbooks want you to believe. Certainly there is nuclear fusion going on, but even that is not as simple as fusing four protons into an alpha, which is what was taught for years. Based on the neutrinos produced we can even estimate how much fusion is happening; and it accounts for less than half of the net energy produced. In recent years, scientists have developed an artificial "kludge" to account for that "problem" - the solar neutrino shortfall; which unfortunately is almost certainly incorrect. There is a more elegant, and far more controversial explanation in the Mills hydrino. Solar astronomy may provide the best evidence of all for this new species. There are a number of long-standing mysteries about the Sun, as Mills is quick to point out. Traditional scientists don't know why the gases around the Sun, in the corona are heated to two million degrees but the surface itself - remarkably is less than six thousand degrees - until, that is, it is pierced by a 40 million degree flare from below. Usually heat flows from a hot body to a cold body, and if solar energy were being produced entirely in the core of the Sun, how does the external gas around the Sun become so much hotter than the surface itself? keeping in mind this halo layer of coronal gas is also shedding far more intense photon radiation then the sun itself? The hydrino provides the answer, to Mills great credit. But one suspects that even Mills may be partly correct and partly in error on those mechanics of hydrino formation - as he is trying to justify results seen in his lab in near vacuum, by means of results seen in the Corona, where the pressures and magnetic forces involved are literally millions of times higher. Anyway, as Mills points out, the Sun has a large number of spectral lines that could not be identified until recently - and they correspond to the energy transitions of this newly described species - the hydrino. From there on, the mechanics are anyone's guess, but there is an intriguing alternative possibility that goes something like this. You have a solar core, which will always be a mystery but may contain an exotic collapsed object of neutral charge - like a proto-neutron star but smaller; and then around that is the thick zone of dense protons where fusion takes place. Then there is the dense solar "surface" which interfaces with the far more diffuse Corona; into which solar "flares" continuously eject hot material mostly protons. Most of the resulting "solar wind" originates from the energy of flares. Since our primary interest is "what" specifically is in the solar wind - this mechanism is very important to understand, if only by hypothesis. Below the sun's surface, in the fusion zone there will likely be a monstrous positive charge bias, which keeps this area far less-dense than it otherwise should be, if only gravity were at work. Electrostatic repulsion is in constant battle with gravity there. The resultant charge layering makes the structure like a giant capacitor, and on the surface and in the corona, you will have a corresponding negative charge bias, to balance out the positive bias below - and many surplus electrons, which probably are "paired" for substantial statistical time periods (even if it is nanoseconds as paired and femptoseconds as sequentially unpaired) - since there is also a gigantic magnetic field and a gigantic gravity field, with which to structure this kind of persistent electron pairing - which is highly favored by electrons anyway. This sets the stage for protons, when they emerge violently from the fusion zone into the negative zone to immediately interact with an electron pair and form a highly shrunken hydino-hydride, ab initio, and with the release of EUV and soft x-rays. This is what powers the Corona and accounts for perhaps 40% of solar output. This highly shrunken species is stable to everything except harder x-rays, but there are plenty of them to contend with. It should be added that ... if protons from the flare are moving fast enough to exit the gravity field alone, or to capture a single electron and exit into the solar wind, then they provides the bulk of this wind, and the single electron capture would provide perhaps the remaining 5-10% of solar heating. The stable hydrino-hydride, in contrast will be ejected electrostatically, but at a much slower pace both in numbers and in velocity. The Hy- may move at less than one percent of the speed of the bulk of solar wind. Mills wants us to believe that hydrinos in the N= 1/2 to 1/4 range can be stable in the Corona, as this supports his conclusions about his earthbound experiments - but there are serious doubts about that. It is possible that nothing can emerge into the "solar wind" except very fast protons, slightly fast monatomic hydrogen, or kinetically *slow* Hy- of deep shrinkage - and that maybe a distinction which others have missed. The solar wind is most likely NOT of uniform velocity, has fewer electrons than suspected, and probably has a substantial component of slow moving Hy-. That is the present premise, which will stand or fall based on a real experiment which can capture the wind before it reaches the ionosphere. Prior to Mills, it was assumed that the negative charge carrier in solar wind would be the electron, solely - and there will be some there, but it seems more likely that the layered capacitance in the solar photosphere keeps most electrons "home" and slows Hy- to a snail-like pace, compared to the protons and hydrogen which are released - BUT that the Hy- is the predominant negative charge carrier, which "balances the books" of the proton emission. Unlike Mills who sees substantial hydrino emission (as opposed to the hydride), my contention is that there is very little unhydrided below-ground-state hydrogen, and that it almost all Hy-. This is also the very reason why that we do not see this Hy- species on earth in any significant quantity. Since it is charged and slow moving, it is captured by the weak magnetic field lines of earth, repelled by the negative layering in the ionosphere, and largely "steered" around the planet instead of reaching a lower altitude, where there is enough gravity to bring them in. Some get in, and perhaps this population does become the "faux-D" of RvS - most of which population ends up as part of the heavy water component of the oceans. Some faux-D would be in what is normally considered to be deuterium, and some would be providing the anomaly in the rather high amount of the 18O isotope, which exists in water. However, it is my contention that if we want to harvest this species in "tonnage," for use as a space propellant or to enhance nuclear fusion, then we are going to have to go up 60-100 miles into the ionosphere in order to do this. This may add new meaning to the top-secret airplane which is presently being called the "Aurora" project. Hey. you thing that ....? ... Naw...? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 09:17:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA1GU4nB031833; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:30:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA1GCb9K019551; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:12:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101080652.02f01b48 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:08:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Beyond Petroleum In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry.. Bravo for identifying those blips on the radar....very insightful...I'll pass this along to some folks I know in commodities and see what I get... At 08:41 AM 10/31/2006, you wrote: >Does anyone know what is happenin' with BP? Their share price is near >it's year low, they have closed their pay online site, and they are no >longer taking applications for gas credit cards. > >Odd. > >Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 11:11:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA1JBg4X018519; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:11:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA1JBXqx018432; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:11:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:11:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c6fde5$500809c0$d4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:41:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6FDB3.04DC7D50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO] Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6FDB3.04DC7D50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6FDB3.04DE03F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6FDB3.04DE03F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote Below the sun's surface, in the fusion zone there will likely be a=20 monstrous positive charge bias, which keeps this area far=20 less-dense than it otherwise should be, if only gravity were at=20 work. Electrostatic repulsion is in constant battle with gravity=20 there. The resultant charge layering makes the structure like a=20 giant capacitor, and on the surface and in the corona, you will=20 have a corresponding negative charge bias, to balance out the=20 positive bias below - and many surplus electrons, which probably=20 are "paired" for substantial statistical time periods (even if it=20 is nanoseconds as paired and femptoseconds as sequentially=20 unpaired) - since there is also a gigantic magnetic field and a=20 gigantic gravity field, with which to structure this kind of=20 persistent electron pairing - which is highly favored by electrons=20 anyway...... if protons from the flare are=20 moving fast enough to exit the gravity field alone, or to capture=20 a single electron and exit into the solar wind, then they provides=20 the bulk of this wind, and the single electron capture would=20 provide perhaps the remaining 5-10% of solar heating. The stable=20 hydrino-hydride, in contrast will be ejected electrostatically,=20 but at a much slower pace both in numbers and in velocity. The Hy-=20 may move at less than one percent of the speed of the bulk of=20 solar wind. Howdy Jones, I suggest the mind picture is blurred by the use of the wording " solar = wind". Unforunately, sometime in the past the event was named "solar = wind" and has "misdirected " science since. A mind picture of a robus strip shaped torus would better fit the frame = for reference. It may be possible to design an experiment to demonstate = if the "solar wind" actually inverts . Picture the Indianapolis = speedway track reshaped into a robus strip and watch the race cars run = past heading east and watch them return from the west, yet never meet = together in a collision. The magnificent " capacitor "fits" the mind picture .. however..=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6FDB3.04DE03F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote

Below the sun's surface, in the fusion zone there will likely be a=20
monstrous positive charge bias, which keeps this area far =
less-dense=20 than it otherwise should be, if only gravity were at
work. = Electrostatic=20 repulsion is in constant battle with gravity
there. The resultant = charge=20 layering makes the structure like a
giant capacitor, and on the = surface and=20 in the corona, you will
have a corresponding negative charge bias, = to=20 balance out the
positive bias below - and many surplus electrons, = which=20 probably
are "paired" for substantial statistical time periods (even = if it=20
is nanoseconds as paired and femptoseconds as sequentially =
unpaired) -=20 since there is also a gigantic magnetic field and a
gigantic gravity = field,=20 with which to structure this kind of
persistent electron pairing - = which is=20 highly favored by electrons
anyway......

 if protons from the flare are
moving fast enough to exit = the=20 gravity field alone, or to capture
a single electron and exit into = the solar=20 wind, then they provides
the bulk of this wind, and the single = electron=20 capture would
provide perhaps the remaining 5-10% of solar heating. = The=20 stable
hydrino-hydride, in contrast will be ejected = electrostatically,=20
but at a much slower pace both in numbers and in velocity. The Hy- =
may=20 move at less than one percent of the speed of the bulk of
solar=20 wind.

Howdy Jones,

I suggest the mind picture is blurred by the use of the wording " = solar=20 wind". Unforunately, sometime in the past the event was named = "solar wind"=20 and has "misdirected " science since.

A mind picture of a robus strip shaped torus would better fit the = frame for=20 reference. It may be possible to design an experiment to demonstate = if the=20 "solar wind" actually inverts . Picture  the Indianapolis speedway = track=20 reshaped into a robus strip and watch the race cars run past heading=20 east and watch them return from the west, yet never meet = together in a=20 collision.

 The magnificent " capacitor "fits" the mind picture .. = however..

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C6FDB3.04DE03F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6FDB3.04DC7D50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c6fde5$4f6931b0$d4027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C6FDB3.04DC7D50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 16:20:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA20K2uq005873; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:20:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA20DfPo001570; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:13:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:13:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y7uo9kxnjvBCRtKlYCDVG4Z0Pbnoq2deCO714GNfq2aVFQMnqHdyOiASSbIo+WY0njc6X5BPMJFxvbZ7mxM+R/EKJZ5ghFPB/b8206G1EBanR1Qa+A5p8IaIegON5WHTtK59/xz0N3vlIT4DOkqO4YruRjXzuWa1z/5otM9xFSU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:13:31 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Beyond Petroleum In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101080652.02f01b48 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101080652.02f01b48 mail.newenergytimes.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, there's the issue of the "smart pig" on the Alaska pipeline; but, that does not explain the recent issues. IMO, they are an acquisition target. Methinks consolidation in the oil industry is quite telling. Terry On 11/1/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > Terry.. Bravo for identifying those blips on the radar....very > insightful...I'll pass this along to some folks I know in commodities and > see what I get... > > At 08:41 AM 10/31/2006, you wrote: > >Does anyone know what is happenin' with BP? Their share price is near > >it's year low, they have closed their pay online site, and they are no > >longer taking applications for gas credit cards. > > > >Odd. > > > >Terry > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 16:36:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA20aoFJ028135; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:36:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA20agJK028067; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:36:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:36:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101163742.02b8db80 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:39:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: Beyond Petroleum Status: O X-Status: >Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:36:44 -0800 >From: Steve Krivit >Subject: Beyond Petroleum > >aha...good info...thanks > >they don't call themselves British Petroleum anymore ...just BP... ughh. > >Maybe I can forgo the name Steve Krivit and just have people call me SK? > >;) > >SK >At 02:41 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote: >>Hi Steve: >> >> >>I presume you are referring to British Petroleum. Given the problems >>they are having with their pipeline I don't think you need any pending >>major news. Whatever comes out of that is going to be between bad and >>worse. There is clearly culpability on BP's side. What is not clear, >>yet, is whether it will be negligence or malfeasance. Cutting down on >>gas cards may be liability limiting move. OTOH, as it says on the gas >>card home page, the Web site is new. It could simply be that the site >>does not work right. >> >>-xxxx From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 19:51:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA23hxka026553; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:44:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA23hupb026488; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:43:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 19:43:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:43:34 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 2 Nov 2006 03:43:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kA23hi6J026275 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 1 Nov 2006 07:59:39 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Below the sun's surface, in the fusion zone there will likely be a >monstrous positive charge bias, which keeps this area far >less-dense than it otherwise should be, if only gravity were at >work. Electrostatic repulsion is in constant battle with gravity >there. The resultant charge layering makes the structure like a >giant capacitor, and on the surface and in the corona, you will >have a corresponding negative charge bias, to balance out the >positive bias below - and many surplus electrons, which probably Here you posit a capacitor in a plasma environment. Since plasma is an excellent electrical conductor, your hypothetical capacitor would be shorted out. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 1 23:40:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA27RlEX015752; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:27:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA27RiBH015692; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:27:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 23:27:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 23:29:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Bill Beaty's inspiring science videos on YouTube, I've decided to start putting up some of my own content. So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the first piece. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs Short documentary on SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion) research. Filmed on Feb. 18, 2005. Produced by New Energy Times, a project of New Energy Institute. Hosted by Steven B. Krivit s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 07:50:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA2Fo9eL014289; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:50:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA2FcBuA000715; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:38:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061102093934.03f336f0 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 09:41:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >Thanks to Bill Beaty's inspiring science videos on YouTube, I've >decided to start putting up some of my own content. > >So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the first piece. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs > >Short documentary on SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego . . . Steve: You or someone else with an account at you tube should go back and add a brief message saying that people can read papers by SPAWARS researchers at your webpage and LENR-CANR.org. A couple of comments have been posted in which people express confusion about the research. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 08:30:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA2GU6Jf020033; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:30:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA2GNpUN014115; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:23:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:23:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=pDkShA+C4oBIEbx05opjAMnJRiuR+mQjvcwjFsBIWQ0Ja2ivID0eYECDxZtns+cNQd3En5yYNn3UNnwzjtl81Btljub3f70VfIJPITxHkUCgf3r4xVnxTgwIeAxrTOp3JS2nwye7RcNsK8jQdb0eZg0R5QIGJNI2kdnUFT7Q55A= ; Message-ID: <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:16:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <0o2FqC.A.JcD.VuhSFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility Status: O X-Status: Robin > Here you posit a capacitor in a plasma environment. Since plasma > is an excellent electrical conductor, your hypothetical > capacitor > would be shorted out. In a sequential and partial sense: yes. Let me explain it better. An earthly plasma in a low density environment is conductive, but there is no law or logic that demands that dense plasmas are necessarily conductive in all vectors, especially in a combination of magnetic field and strong gravity field. It's all about the necessity for "charge carriers". Without a mobile charge carrier, there can be no conductivity in the restrained vector. To balance any hypothetical charge-bias which develops between core and corona - one might logically suspect that this cannot be accomplished by electrons at all. We know that electrons, of even extremely high potential are captured by a modest magnetic field. Protons are captured less strongly by the sun's combination of magnetic and gravity fields - and consequently will only partially lose the outward vector of mobility - because the solar fields are not strong enough to completely accomplish the stagnation of proton charge mobility. Therefore there should indeed exist this constant and sequential but partial "shorting" of the solar-capacitor. This process is visible to us on earth in the "arcing" of solar flares in which a jet of protons exit the surface, then extend out millions of miles in an arc, and then curve back into the core, having left a small portion of protons in the corona which indeed does "short" some portion of the accumulated charge-bias. I suspect that once the sequential charge-bias rebuilds back to a certain level - a flare is inevitable and what we see in solar astronomy is an indication of this very thing - the "attempt" to balance the charge differential between core and corona over time. Furthermore (and thanks for the segue) one might even suggest - or add to the previous round of speculation - that it is the "shorting process" itself - which is the Hy- maker ! so to speak - as it is never more than a temporary and sequential thing, following which charge-bias will immediately increases again; And that this ongoing process could be the precise mechanism for hydrino-hydride formation in one-step. This is the important detail which I believe that Mills has missed: that there is probably Zero stability regime in the corona for the uncharged hydrino, and that only the hydrino-hydride of near maximum entropy will be survivable in that environment. Otherwise, with upwards to 40% of the solar energy content coming from hydrino formation, demanding gigaton per second of hydrino manufacture, earth would have been totally swamped with them over geologic time, and there would almost no "normal" hydrogen at all in earthbound chemistry - only hydrinos. Anyone can do the basic "ballpark" math for this and it is clear - IF - they supply that much energy (to account for the neutrino deficit - which is likely) - THEN - there MUST be an inherent mechanism which keeps most hydrinos out of the earthly environment, or else they would be: not just evident but would have swamped us with nothing but hydrinos after 5 billion years. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 09:54:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA2Hs6TY012122; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:54:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA2Hs3ac012085; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:54:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:54:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=d0G4hABaXha3nF4PK/qv2qeMiOZMosgkZn0lxGOuQTVYc08cUK/UMnrA4gRZNaRjGCIBUdQVKAsrJ3qAAi8A6p0jUUFfRK5xRF9CN+MILI2U76H5LynOeNxBf60tBWHGlxsleZ8IXyyGwivPk1r2c9mZD+TZkizGUjcytwZn89c= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:53:28 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility In-Reply-To: <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Otherwise, with upwards to 40% of the solar energy content coming > from hydrino formation, demanding gigaton per second of hydrino > manufacture, earth would have been totally swamped with them over > geologic time, and there would almost no "normal" hydrogen at all > in earthbound chemistry - only hydrinos. If Hy- are spewing forth as you conject, that means He is not being formed and there is mass balance problem in solar theory. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 10:36:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA2Ia59e010710; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:36:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA2Ia0BR010667; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:36:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:35:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=EWUPl3VA+VUpW+p0fGqi6Jrj7/NZANklKgZcdCUCwlZ6Z9KY7e7vvt/WJsMBX+9LBnDfFivDfk0cpBN7/8xA8DOK1KoAnrdOH+RJqSx340n/rbMlg/wSjC0+0Y7H30w/NDuErYmlVQlsPHXHNA2RKcraPjvCk7BHhplT3vjZMn8= ; Message-ID: <006101c6fead$bb4dc030$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:35:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility Status: O X-Status: Terry > If Hy- are spewing forth as you conject, that means He is not > being > formed and there is mass balance problem in solar theory. It's not an "either/or" situation. Certainly fusion accounts for about half the solar energy, as the neutrino flux indicates. There is still plenty of helium ash in the sun. The solar neutrino problem is/was a major discrepancy between measurements of neutrinos on Earth - in contrast to known results from from fission reactors - but mostly from the theoretical models of the solar fusion mechanism. The "problem" was considered by the mainstream to have been "solved" in about 2002 by "new understanding" of neutrino physics (total BS ! in parts at least) requiring a modification of the Standard Model - specifically, **neutrino oscillation.** Here is the way the argument goes: "neutrinos have mass (in some meansurements), and if neutrinos have mass, then they can change from the massless type which had been expected to be produced in the sun's interior, into other types that would not be caught by the detectors in use at the time". Even if your agree with the idea of "oscillation" of neutrinos, and that they have apparent mass in certain measurements (I do believe that, if it matters) --- can you spot the logical fallacy of the so-called "solution" to the problem: (there are several)? The whole solution is presently little more than an impossible kludge that few want to talk about -- possibly because the same problem is elegantly and accurately solved by a least one version of the hydrino concept. The whole scene now is indicative of just how easily the "mainstream" can be, and is, fooled by a near consensus of self-appointed experts.... somewhat reminiscent of the "pathological science" which Vo's know and love ... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 16:41:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA30eZjW030877; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:40:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA30ePSp030761; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:40:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:40:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061102160003.02e48448 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:10:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061102093934.03f336f0 mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061102093934.03f336f0 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Good idea. Done. >Steve: > >You or someone else with an account at you tube should go back and add a >brief message saying that people can read papers by SPAWARS researchers at >your webpage and LENR-CANR.org. A couple of comments have been posted in >which people express confusion about the research. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 18:18:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA32Hjuw015437; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:17:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA32HgAU015420; Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:17:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 18:17:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LASl/E1Icv+MMbri7NzmklGConmiHk8L1013DXvIziJ0Thu75RSG9SNYQtqVN0U5E+ybjwwgYBeI7xaYtgIzwY4Bs8UdajY77u2W+EaZQcw4W6fxOhbOsqlT3SE5xtk8vBBxBhkn7nM3/xlB5CdbGWgbkeYR3gNROaxLpJLiG2c= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 19:17:15 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A bill put up videos? i missed this. anyone have a link? On 11/2/06, Steven Krivit wrote: > Thanks to Bill Beaty's inspiring science videos on YouTube, I've decided to > start putting up some of my own content. > > So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the first piece. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs > > Short documentary on SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego Low Energy Nuclear > Reactions (cold fusion) research. Filmed on Feb. 18, 2005. Produced by New > Energy Times, a project of New Energy Institute. Hosted by Steven B. Krivit > > > s > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 03:19:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3BJLDR010869; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 03:19:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3BJIQX010826; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 03:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 03:19:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mbaf4Hi7bkYERjPvOYepPHcunZanykthkky57HhZnlUAYBPjvh6pHqoub2pshXVS; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061153111858546 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 04:18:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940102b97bec38c3ea85ca9cef3cddacfd1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.136 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII How does one modify a two or four cycle engine on a genset to run off the pressure of Solar Heated Ammonia or Propane? About 10% Carnot Efficiency with Ammonia heated to 120 F rejecting heat into a sealed pipe stuck into the ground at 60 F geothermal heat rejection temperature, with a small submersible condensate return pump at the bottom. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ammonia-d_971.html Or Propane: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html With an old modified genset and about three 21 ft lengths of pipe in gravel in a solar-heated hotbox and the "well" driven into the ground in my back yard I figure I can go a few hundred watts solar-geothermal on the cheap. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
How does one modify a two or four cycle engine on
a genset to run off the pressure of Solar Heated Ammonia
or Propane?
 
About 10% Carnot Efficiency with Ammonia heated to 120 F
rejecting heat into a sealed pipe stuck into the ground at 60 F geothermal
heat rejection temperature, with a small submersible condensate return pump
at the bottom.
 
Or Propane:
 
 
With an old modified genset and about three 21 ft lengths of pipe in gravel in
a solar-heated hotbox and the "well" driven into the ground in my back yard I figure I can
go a few hundred watts solar-geothermal on the cheap.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 06:26:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3EQ959017447; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:26:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3EQ5T2017408; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:26:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 06:26:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mZ9hXjfCS0AxXoXLz+fQxWIvknlW5w8WndCxTLysVOaw/iWMs1erljoITscCEaMuSQiFTk/m4GMU3eGpd840dIA2lHGX8EmwuhKOjla5+vC4KV8vAoR8OwagejbrRW00afDdeficQ6F8c+sMrJreKH2IlKrOZGaT+479c/9ibOg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 09:26:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility In-Reply-To: <006101c6fead$bb4dc030$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <006101c6fead$bb4dc030$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <5xGMz.A.7PE.8F1SFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/2/06, Jones Beene wrote: > It's not an "either/or" situation. Certainly fusion accounts for > about half the solar energy, as the neutrino flux indicates. There > is still plenty of helium ash in the sun. Interesting. All elements derive from the solar furnace; so, if stars are spewing Hy, you might have found the missing matter. You could estimate the rate of Hy generation and, based on the known age of the universe, determine if sufficient Hy would predict a closed universe. But then again, some cosmologists think that the universe extends beyond the visible. Thus the age is much greater than we presently think. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 07:03:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3F3OTB019726; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:03:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3F3JkA019684; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:03:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:03:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=p+JcPYDKMYEAEQbHYzzqzmJMeLvETo6OpqYfH1HbZK4ddf2GfXceqdPBBW1PR6aLEx/Ur4rU/UdZTw8Be/UjNhKp2ONhe9hsb+2sutB7mYO0MhjCjJFhJ6MJ+sVsS/PMx+EEbfzVlsRkdWrnX+H2T6G+yZmog2yqmluh0z7O0kw= ; Message-ID: <000e01c6ff59$2e9e3410$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <006101c6fead$bb4dc030$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:03:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility Status: O X-Status: Terry, > Interesting. All elements derive from the solar furnace; so, if > stars > are spewing Hy, you might have found the missing matter. You > could > estimate the rate of Hy generation and, based on the known age > of the > universe, determine if sufficient Hy would predict a closed > universe. Yes. Mills goes this far - to equate (at least a decent percentage) of "dark matter" with the hydrino. Most of he rest of the dark-matter is to found in the mass of the neutrino; with perhaps other exotic particles contributing, and also dense 'accumulations' thrown in for good measure (mini-black holes). This particular universe (not Mills version but a composite viewpoint) is not exactly "closed" in the sense of an inevitable universal collapse, but is so near to perfect balance that it "pulsates" in areas which correspond to "local groups" of galaxies (each being of several thousand "Milky Way" equivalents). These local groups recycle enough of each others shed detritus, such that each go successively in and out of periodic balance over 100 billion year cycles. Going further, it could be that there is not, nor ever was a big-bang "singularity" but instead there are a succession of "little bangs" of local groups of galaxies - and the CMB (formerly, the best evidence for a singularity) represents - not the relic of a single big-bang, but the spatial limit of 3-space, such that all photon radiation is essentially "reflected" at that limit (the bounding curvature). Mind-boggling.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 08:20:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3G0NA8028834; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:02:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3FqnJK020433; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:52:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:52:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=hUUHQD0FSQMsdVlVVB5MwHnX+hh7YBSoVKLuQvIre1pHjmK8UqrOTk6wZCkR5gjBKRsQZHzeJnLclCuJAJQAmC0NfXBv3AfNQnCIrb6fxB8C0+jlQXNj304EP1HtdP+XNaNhLwZDCP5zfv1h52ioPrZXHwBjpq+nr6BULPSRmUs= ; Message-ID: <002b01c6ff60$163197d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220061153111858546 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 07:52:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C6FF1D.07737760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C6FF1D.07737760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it doesn't necessarily need to be based on an ICE, perhaps a = thermoacoustic setup (reverse loudspeaker) will suffice to convert the = gas pressure differential into electrical energy by way of acoustics ? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:18 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset How does one modify a two or four cycle engine on a genset to run off the pressure of Solar Heated Ammonia=20 or Propane?=20 About 10% Carnot Efficiency with Ammonia heated to 120 F rejecting heat into a sealed pipe stuck into the ground at 60 F = geothermal heat rejection temperature, with a small submersible condensate return = pump at the bottom. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ammonia-d_971.html Or Propane: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html With an old modified genset and about three 21 ft lengths of pipe in = gravel in=20 a solar-heated hotbox and the "well" driven into the ground in my back = yard I figure I can go a few hundred watts solar-geothermal on the cheap. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C6FF1D.07737760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If it doesn't necessarily need to be based on an ICE, perhaps a=20 thermoacoustic setup (reverse loudspeaker) will suffice to convert the = gas=20 pressure differential into electrical energy by way of acoustics ?
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 = 3:18=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: = Solar-Thermal Powered=20 Genset

How does one modify a two = or four cycle=20 engine on
a genset to run off the = pressure of=20 Solar Heated Ammonia
or Propane?
 
About 10% Carnot Efficiency = with=20 Ammonia heated to 120 F
rejecting heat into a = sealed pipe stuck=20 into the ground at 60 F geothermal
heat rejection temperature, = with a=20 small submersible condensate return pump
at the bottom.
 
http://www.= engineeringtoolbox.com/ammonia-d_971.html
Or Propane:
 
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html=
 
With an old modified genset = and about=20 three 21 ft lengths of pipe in gravel in
a solar-heated hotbox = and the "well" driven into the ground = in my back=20 yard I figure I can
go a few hundred watts = solar-geothermal=20 on the cheap.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C6FF1D.07737760-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 08:37:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3GSdh9028744; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:28:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3GSWAr028646; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:28:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=EcdkFjQffJxluRpL8dfQqBrkq3CDFotl4cP5xePsZxzSfC8tL3mkL2tujjB3PMWM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006115316287236 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 09:28:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a6754765ecd456fcb053684e24d4ee2f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII You still end up with a piston to convert motion to electrical power, Jones. Use some of the genset watts to operate "solenoid valves" or convert a refrigerator Scroll Compressor to work in reverse http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm#scroll http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm Cheaper than a gas/steam turbine. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: 11/3/2006 9:04:21 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset If it doesn't necessarily need to be based on an ICE, perhaps a thermoacoustic setup (reverse loudspeaker) will suffice to convert the gas pressure differential into electrical energy by way of acoustics ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:18 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset How does one modify a two or four cycle engine on a genset to run off the pressure of Solar Heated Ammonia or Propane? About 10% Carnot Efficiency with Ammonia heated to 120 F rejecting heat into a sealed pipe stuck into the ground at 60 F geothermal heat rejection temperature, with a small submersible condensate return pump at the bottom. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ammonia-d_971.html Or Propane: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html With an old modified genset and about three 21 ft lengths of pipe in gravel in a solar-heated hotbox and the "well" driven into the ground in my back yard I figure I can go a few hundred watts solar-geothermal on the cheap. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
You still end up with a piston to convert motion
to electrical power, Jones.
Use some of the genset watts to operate "solenoid valves"
or convert a refrigerator Scroll Compressor to work in reverse
 
 
Cheaper than a gas/steam turbine.
 
Fred
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/3/2006 9:04:21 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset

If it doesn't necessarily need to be based on an ICE, perhaps a thermoacoustic setup (reverse loudspeaker) will suffice to convert the gas pressure differential into electrical energy by way of acoustics ?
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:18 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal Powered Genset

How does one modify a two or four cycle engine on
a genset to run off the pressure of Solar Heated Ammonia
or Propane?
 
About 10% Carnot Efficiency with Ammonia heated to 120 F
rejecting heat into a sealed pipe stuck into the ground at 60 F geothermal
heat rejection temperature, with a small submersible condensate return pump
at the bottom.
 
Or Propane:
 
 
With an old modified genset and about three 21 ft lengths of pipe in gravel in
a solar-heated hotbox and the "well" driven into the ground in my back yard I figure I can
go a few hundred watts solar-geothermal on the cheap.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 08:37:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3GbYNa007155; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:37:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3GbVif007109; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:38:15 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Greenest of the Green In-reply-to: <001101c6fc36$0e7574d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611031138.15663.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <001101c6fc36$0e7574d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 30 October 2006 10:14, Jones Beene wrote: > Fess-up, Detroit: where are you? > > In automotive, it's no longer the Prius, but it is still "from" > Japan. > > http://automobiles.honda.com/models/awards.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid&Num=0 > > I should say the design only is from Japan. Honda's six US > factories generally have higher quality ratings then their > Japanese counterparts. Part of that due to the fact the factories > are newer, the work force is slightly younger, Or maybe it is that Americans by their very nature are better with machinery and industrial processes. Remember there is now a common management system in place in Japan and the United States in the subject factories..both are on Deming's ISOx000 and/or its successors working to the same blueprints. That's roughly enough common factors for a true comparison of Japanese and American workforces. Age is not that much a factor in a factory setting, and in fact, older workers will pay attention to business more. >the unions not as > hostile - Unions in both the United States and Japan have to contend with management that cares little for them but will cooperate to an extent when forced to. Japanese management is a bit more stentorian, but then so are the Japanese workers when they know they are acting in a common interest. Remember that 'kamikaze' is a Japanese word! I have personally been to Japan and have seen the 'zenga-kuren' (probably horribly mis-spelled) in labor and political strikes. They dress just like the police complete with shield and armor and helmet, something that our own gestapo would try to make illegal. I am sure it is just as illegal in Japan, but so were strikes in both countries from time to time. Remember, a labor strike is not a sunday school social. For either side. In the United States, weak unions invite physical attacks of its weakest members by shadowy 'security organizations' the mention of whose very name inspires lawsuits from these 'wack........o's and whose name is written in blood all across the southern states of the United States. This is documented in pictures in just about any union hall in the United States. When heads were broken by ax handles here and would be union members were arrested, the 'crime' was usually 'conspiring to increase their wages'. Managements get the kinds of unions they deserve. but mostly due to top-down brainpower... which sadly, is > lacking from Detroit. I would say the ideology of managements is roughly the same in both Japan and in the United States inasmuch as the manager is supposed to hold the company and its interests foremost in his considerations. In Japan this leads to 'Kaizen', striving to be better. In the United States this is perverted to mean screw your co-worker out of his/her job. Therefore we are not talking about a lack of brainpower intrinsically, but of management inefficiency due to supervisors constantly working with a view to what is behind them or how they can be second guessed by jealous or ambitious co-workers or career climbing underlings. You do not work at your best if you are in a gangfight! in a shark tank, and modern businesses are shark tanks. This is a stratosphere of inflated salaries that can disappear in a heartbeat along with the standards of living to which these pampered darlings have become accustomed. In Japan the salaries of management are low, the difference now being made up with large expense accounts. There are fewer scandals in Japan about padding these. I would additionally add the propensity of nepotism and cronyism that abounds in companies and governmental agencies here in the United States. Americans use people..look at Tom Delay and Marc Foley, and Mike Skilling. Japanese see people as a real resource to be protected and developed. da Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 09:19:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3GxwuH003022; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:59:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3GxnAZ002911; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:59:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:59:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=jyMIj1+JRZpzTAL11yaxxxGv4WL1T7bVyYdkriOqfAJFYAL+o5mbQeDuQGnckDqU6QvGNyHl1ASj8TDDV25E/rSyroFmZ2Kfzk1k2nk/f+CnFKnYIXTNepOa52wPkkqPs1MHGtFlKi8xpk/Kr5XHb2yVZr7HGRlaVSKyf6RlIQY= ; Message-ID: <003901c6ff64$195e49e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:21:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: > So when you're really bored and have nothing to do, here's the > first piece. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs This is fabulous. I love the concept of minimalist "dollar general strore" experimental rigs set amidst million dollar measuring equipment, and performed by unassuming and intellignet researchers, who do not need the crutch of mainstream approval - instead of the implied snobbery of everything being custom made except the resultant "physics". Here's to the hope that you will have more "show and tell" to share, Steve - and especially the data from that tritium monitor ... ...if, that is - the PsiCops/PhysiCops have not already stepped-in. I notice that Joe Public cannot get to this video the normal way (searching for "SPAWAR" for instance). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 10:12:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3IC79f012478; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:12:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3IC5Op012427; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:12:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:12:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <454B8630.6030406 usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:10:56 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Hydrino Harvester (c) References: <004f01c6f9ea$947c10a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <200610291406.15006.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> <004801c6fb91$b6f7a330$6401a8c0@NuDell> <200610300103.15167.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> <4547655E.3080701@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4547655E.3080701 usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8cK0P.A.BCD.1Z4SFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Standing Bear's message of Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:03:15 >> -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >>> Can you think of a black light booster set in the place of the >>> shuttle main >>> engines. Get us from earth to orbit to mars and back on one >>> re-fueling! >>> > I've yet to hear of an hydrino powered motor producing any thrust. > > I visited the Steorn website. When they actually report something of > substance, I'll see it on Vortex. > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 10:37:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3Ias2o010572; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:36:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3Ian9p010437; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:36:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:36:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061103103120.031a5b58 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:39:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <003901c6ff64$195e49e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <003901c6ff64$195e49e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, Thanks for the encouragement. I have a whole lot of video content that has been piling up. I've been sort of struggling with the technology... wmv vs. rp or both? mp4 vs. swf? stream vs. download? This is my first experience with UT and I love it. SWF is the ideal format but it had previously been a hassle to convert it to that. Now, UT does a)for free and b)automatically. From the users' side, UT has made shockwave ubiquitous. So - do expect more to come ...however, I'm sorry that I can give you any near-term expectations for more news on the tritium, but would you accept charged particles instead? http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm P.S. I logged out and dropped SPAWAR in the search box and it brought me right to the clip. S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 12:39:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3Kcf5L011951; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:38:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3KcbsS011893; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:38:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061103134708.041ce938 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:50:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061102160003.02e48448 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061102093934.03f336f0 mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20061102160003.02e48448 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0-GrpB.A.s5C.Mj6SFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:10 PM 11/2/2006, Steven Krivit wrote: >Jed, > >Good idea. Done. It says: "More news at www.newenergytimes.com. Science papers online at www.lenr.org" This is a minor thing, but perhaps this would be less ambiguous to say: "More news at www.newenergytimes.com. Science papers from SPAWARS online at www.lenr.org." Or, you could be specific: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm If it is a pain in the butt to change this, don't bother. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 13:39:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3Lct1J001006; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:38:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3LcqLG000963; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:38:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:38:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061103133427.032bf7a8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:34:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061103134708.041ce938 mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061102093934.03f336f0 mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20061102160003.02e48448 mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061103134708.041ce938 mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm > >If it is a pain in the butt to change this, don't bother. No problema s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 13:52:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3LeQVo001938; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:40:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3LePBk001921; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:40:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:40:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=BzSzuRaPUFjp4Bb05yYTTtUiEvKQN2gZ4VHHSY8UfiVbqKlfs79cn6lS8iADSirkYYvjciR4YzZj/1ceEoHAp6GZ4G5vqqZYRJfGdEC0AnXdqGS71lHcocWwTuL770sqCqVbVxZ0hV+nivKp48aZy1ANkG7qh0drx13vZoDxkxQ= ; Message-ID: <008901c6ff90$ab1a7850$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <003901c6ff64$195e49e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.0.14.2.20061103103120.031a5b58@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:40:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" > P.S. I logged out and dropped SPAWAR in the search box and it > brought me right to the clip. I tried it just now, and it does give the synopsis and the expectation that the clip is there, but when I click on the link to play it - it gives a box stating: ** This video has been removed by the user** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 15:18:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA3NINLP026775; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:18:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA3NIL20026718; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:18:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:18:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bill Beaty's inspiring Videos Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 10:18:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <35jnk2d0gfug86r19k94mpr3bashpn3t5b 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101232929.02cf9ea8 mail.newenergytimes.com> <003901c6ff64$195e49e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.0.14.2.20061103103120.031a5b58@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061103103120.031a5b58 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 3 Nov 2006 23:18:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kA3NIDbJ026434 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:39:00 -0800: Hi, >Hi Jones, > >Thanks for the encouragement. I have a whole lot of video content that has >been piling up. I've been sort of struggling with the technology... wmv vs. >rp or both? mp4 vs. swf? stream vs. download? Always go for download. The net has varying response times, and this can make streamed video unwatchable, while the software loads the next buffer. OTOH after first downloading to disk, a video can be watched uninterrupted. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 16:30:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA40USZk028541; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA40UQBv028506; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:30:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 16:30:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Plasma Charge Mobility Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:30:00 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002601c6fdce$bd24e580$6401a8c0 NuDell> <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001b01c6fe9a$50c786f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 4 Nov 2006 00:29:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kA40U07P028205 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 2 Nov 2006 08:16:54 -0800: Hi, [snip] >To balance any hypothetical charge-bias which develops between >core and corona - You still haven't said why you think would be any charge bias at all. I.e. what mechanism would create such? >one might logically suspect that this cannot be >accomplished by electrons at all. We know that electrons, of even >extremely high potential are captured by a modest magnetic field. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 17:10:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA41AC3T028427; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:10:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA41A6s3028352; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:10:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:10:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=mPJjJ5xwuvf4lJNAnAJHpjHZ097wVJi0G0chLdz9EYo3pSo7mITV06Y7BWmIgxhT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006116411118620 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:11:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d86612e7464f31388571004cd694cf98c21ee4b264fab01f9d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.54.87 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 3, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: > Date: 11/3/2006 1:34:36 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 3, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 3 Nov 06 Washington, DC 1. DIETARY SUPPLEMENT: WHAT DID JESUS KNOW ABOUT RESVERATROL? Researchers report in Nature that massive doses of a natural substance found in red wine, resveratrol, offsets some of the bad effects of a high-calorie diet and extends life span - if you're> a mouse. Resveratrol is in the skin of the grape where it serves as a fungicide. The corresponding dose for a human would be staggering, but many will try and stagger. It's been sold as a dietary supplement for years on the basis of the "French paradox" of low incidence of coronary heart disease. The first miracle of Jesus, related in John 2:1-12, was performed at a wedding party. When they ran out of party drinks, Jesus turned 6 jugs of water into wine. He could have turned it into beer I suppose, or even Dr. Pepper, or maybe he saw ahead to discovery of resveratrol's benefits. Thousands of Bible-Belt ministers have preached that the "wine" Jesus made must have been unfermented grape juice. 2. TED HAGGARD: ADMITS BUYING METH FROM HIS MALE PROSTITUTE. A year ago Ted Haggard said Heaven is only for born-again Christians http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn122305.html . Is there some place with higher standards? 3. EVOLUTION: THE HONEY BEE GENOME MAY REAWAKEN A CONTROVERSY. Four years in the making, a consortium of 150 researchers in 20 countries deciphered the 236-million-base genome. This is the fifth insect sequenced so far. It's of interest because of the bee's complex social behavior. People communicate by dancing, and so, it is said, do honey bees. The claim is that scout bees do an elaborate dance to let the hive know where the flowers are. It earned Karl von Frisch a Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1973. Not everyone agreed. No other animal exhibits such a language, and language takes a lot of genes. The experiments of Adrian Wenner at UCSC seemed to show that bees just smell the flowers. The genome reveals a huge group of genes for odorant receptors, but no unique cluster of brain genes. So why do bees dance? In June I spent days watching as carpenter bees tried to convert my deck into sawdust. Carpenter bees are loners. They don't have hives, preferring to drill individual holes in my deck. But they dance like crazy. I think they're just hovering, but that's not easy. Like helicopter pilots, they must constantly make corrections. 4. HUBBLE: NASA PLANS REPAIRS OF THE WORLD'S GREATEST TELESCOPE. Planned for May 2008, it was a rare piece of good news coming out of NASA. It should extend Hubble's life to 2013. The decision was attributed to the ability to inspect the shuttle in flight. 5. PROLIFERATION: NORTH KOREA AGREES TO RETURN TO 6-NATION TALKS. As part of a deal brokered by China, North Korea agreed to resume the suspended talks and the U.S. agreed to discuss the financial sanctions it has imposed. Countries around the world prepared to impose U.N. sponsored sanctions following the recent test. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the Unversity of Maryland, but they should be. ---> Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 19:40:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA43eCgO014512; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 19:40:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA43Utej004462; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 19:30:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 19:30:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c6ffc1$95d28290$72027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 21:29:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6FF8F.3783F980"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Greenest of the Green Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6FF8F.3783F980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6FF8F.37858020" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6FF8F.37858020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStanding Bear wrote, This is a stratosphere of inflated salaries that can disappear in a heartbeat along with the standards of living to which these pampered darlings have become accustomed.=20 Interesting observations da Bear. Consider Clear Channel Communications = of San Antonio Texas. Now considering going private. The present = management is in the hands of a wealthy family. The stock is 1/2 of 2000 = price. This family has reaped huge stck and other encentives and now = face super enrichment by selling out. Who is buying Clear Channel to take private and why ? Goldman sachs is " = handling" the deal for management and studying offers by Texas-Pacific, = Kohlberg, Blackstone Group and others. Serious money must want Clear = Channel... why? Clear Channel owns 1500 some odd USA radio stations.. A few names may be = recognized.. Rush Limbaugh, et.al. A conservative voice over 1500 = stations is no small potaters. Scary stuff to begin with.. a single entity controlling 1500 dispersed = radoi stations nationwide.. How did they get an ok from FCC to capture = such a huge base? .. and better still.. who wants this asset and = resource.. and why.. the what-ifs are staggering if one considers that = Rush could be effectively silenced if certain parties took the 1500 = stations private... while I am not a Rush fan.. I can see a danger. = Anything that has a smell of Goldman Sachs scares me. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6FF8F.37858020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Standing Bear wrote,

This is a stratosphere
of inflated salaries that can disappear in = a=20 heartbeat along with
the standards of living to which these pampered = darlings=20 have
become accustomed. 

 

Interesting observations da Bear. Consider Clear Channel = Communications of=20 San Antonio Texas. Now considering going private. The present management = is in=20 the hands of a wealthy family. The stock is 1/2 of 2000 price. This = family has=20 reaped huge stck and other encentives and now face super enrichment by = selling=20 out.

Who is buying Clear Channel to take private and why ? Goldman sachs = is "=20 handling" the deal for management and studying offers by Texas-Pacific,=20 Kohlberg, Blackstone Group and others. Serious money must want Clear = Channel...=20 why?

Clear Channel owns 1500 some odd USA radio stations.. A few names may = be=20 recognized.. Rush Limbaugh, et.al. A conservative voice over 1500 = stations is no=20 small potaters.

Scary stuff to begin with.. a single entity controlling 1500 = dispersed radoi=20 stations nationwide.. How did they get an ok from FCC to capture such a = huge=20 base? .. and better still.. who wants this asset and resource.. and = why.. the=20 what-ifs are staggering if one considers that Rush could be effectively = silenced=20 if certain parties took the 1500 stations private... while I am not a = Rush fan..=20 I can see a danger. Anything that has a smell of Goldman Sachs scares = me.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C6FF8F.37858020-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6FF8F.3783F980 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c6ffc1$81ed6e70$72027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C6FF8F.3783F980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 3 22:50:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA46o2Nt032308; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:50:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA46VUVB019324; Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:31:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:31:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 01:32:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kA46VKd9019238 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Reifenschweiler effect Status: O X-Status: from http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/311alberts.html "...The ŒReifenschweiler effect¹ is the observation that the beta-decay of tritium half-life 12.5 years is delayed reversibly by about 25-30% when the isotope is absorbed in 15 nm titanium-clusters in a temperature window in between 160-275 C. Remarkably at 360 C the original radioactivity reappears. The effect is absent in bulk metal. Discovered around 1960/1962 at Philips Research Eindhoven, The Netherlands Reifenschweiler extensively discussed his observation with o.a Casimir (the director of research at the time), Kistemaker (ultracentrifuge expert), and although no satisfactory explanation was found, R. was allowed to publish it. At the time a unique example as to how an electronic environment might affect nuclear phenomena..." Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 4 07:26:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA4FQDVi003413; Sat, 4 Nov 2006 07:26:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA4FQBTZ003379; Sat, 4 Nov 2006 07:26:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 07:26:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=evCK7gzMYQRFsuvtkt37DOLp47j71J8tKjUxaTm+KhuILrelYk3XGPYIVGfEXAnA; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <5983502.1162653969671.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 10:26:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Reifenschweiler effect Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cc96dfdf44cc83aae2f17be42ec1f78e3ac30c6e5e32ee181350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have a couple of papers by Reifenschweiler at LENR-CANR. Look in the index. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 4 17:53:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA51rEHI020075; Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:53:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA51rBAH020050; Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:53:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 17:53:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 20:53:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Reifenschweiler effect In-reply-to: <5983502.1162653969671.JavaMail.root mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, from http://lenr-canr.org/SGFN.htm 66. Reifenschweiler, O., Some experiments on the decrease of tritium radioactivity. Fusion Technol., 1996. 30: p. 261. Was the above paper actually published in Fusion Technology? The pdf file I downloaded only says it was presented at ICCF #5. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > We have a couple of papers by Reifenschweiler at LENR-CANR. Look in the index. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 5 04:15:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA5CEp10026338; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:14:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA5CEk4f026307; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:14:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:14:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Etq/Eq2pYQgZclvHWMncMimpuuak1169bTKUHUSv1Nsij+b1wPyBhRUZn50LFv2l; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061105115857220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:58:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a9388f9b9c18aaf2c6d8e2c644b8815e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.124 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal on Propane Gas Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What will the Mitsubishi FX105V do on 100% Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG) or more, rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG) or less condenser? Cheaper than $256.00 at an Auto-Recycler (JUNK YARD)? :-) QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two Propane bottles, One in 120 F water, the other in cooler water and the expander betwixt. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html "http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm#scroll" "Another type of expander is the scroll expander. This expander is essentially a refrigeration scroll compressor running backwards." Scroll Compressor Sales: http://www.a-aironline.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=18 http://www.a-aironline.com/faq.aspx PICTURES OF DISASSEMBLED MITSUBISHI FX105V: http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vsc.jpg http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vcv.jpg http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vbg.jpg ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
What will the Mitsubishi FX105V do on 100% Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG)
or more, rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG) or less condenser?
 
Cheaper than $256.00 at an Auto-Recycler (JUNK YARD)?   :-)
 
QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two Propane bottles, One in 120 F water,
the other in cooler water and the expander betwixt.
 
 
 
 
"Another type of expander is the scroll expander.
This expander is essentially a refrigeration scroll compressor running backwards."
 
Scroll Compressor Sales:
 
 
 
PICTURES OF DISASSEMBLED MITSUBISHI FX105V:
 
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 5 05:26:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA5DQesR022115; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 05:26:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA5DQcGr022094; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 05:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 05:26:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gbB1hGDqm8AYg96u1EOQgFJs8v7tUpiUPyUHPU9oBq27NRS5eBVT1s6cEdPM3vj2; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061105132626575 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 06:26:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940635a68a97fc61c905fdd428006f350ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal on Propane Gas Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What will the Mitsubishi FX105V do on 100% Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG) or more, rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG) or less condenser? Cheaper than $256.00 at an Auto-Recycler (JUNK YARD)? :-) QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two Propane bottles, One in 120 F water, the other in cooler water and the expander betwixt. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html "http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm#scroll" At "0.5% Efficiency for the 200 Megawatt Solar Tower" requiring "38 square kilometers of collector and a kilometer high tower" vs ~10% efficiency using about 4 square kilometers of propane piping in easily maintainable solar collector trenches (possibly in conjunction with Algae Ponds that produce up to 37,000 gallons of bio-oil per hectare-year), which would you pick? Fred ...................................................................................... "Another type of expander is the scroll expander. This expander is essentially a refrigeration scroll compressor running backwards." Scroll Compressor Sales: http://www.a-aironline.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=18 http://www.a-aironline.com/faq.aspx PICTURES OF DISASSEMBLED MITSUBISHI FX105V: http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vsc.jpg http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vcv.jpg http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vbg.jpg ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII  
What will the Mitsubishi FX105V do on 100% Propane with 110 deg F (204 PSIG)
or more, rejecting into 70 F (110 PSIG) or less condenser?
 
Cheaper than $256.00 at an Auto-Recycler (JUNK YARD)?   :-)
 
QUICK EXPERIMENT: Two Propane bottles, One in 120 F water,
the other in cooler water and the expander betwixt.
 
 
 
 
At "0.5% Efficiency for the 200 Megawatt Solar Tower" requiring
"38 square kilometers of collector and a kilometer high tower"
vs ~10% efficiency using about 4 square kilometers of propane
piping in easily maintainable solar collector trenches (possibly
in conjunction with Algae Ponds that produce up to 37,000 gallons
of bio-oil per hectare-year), which would you pick?
 
Fred
......................................................................................
"Another type of expander is the scroll expander.
This expander is essentially a refrigeration scroll compressor running backwards."
 
Scroll Compressor Sales:
 
 
 
PICTURES OF DISASSEMBLED MITSUBISHI FX105V:
 
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 5 21:51:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA65oCdt013051; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 21:51:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA65murv010655; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 21:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 21:48:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061105215123.02b57438 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 21:51:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_684295906==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <0tIP5D.A.GmC.GzsTFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: AN OPEN LETTER TO RUSS GEORGE Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_684295906==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AN OPEN LETTER TO RUSS GEORGE Dear Mr. George, It's been six months since we published our report in New Energy Times on=20 your work and that of D2Fusion. People in the CMNS community are still asking me =96 as recently as last= week=20 =96 if D2Fusion ever provided any form of response, either formal or=20 informal, to our investigation. I tell them that we have not received any=20 communication from you or D2Fusion, that you have not challenged our facts,= =20 our context or our representations. Consequently, I've decided to send this open letter to you, by way of the=20 CMNS and VORTEX lists, as I gather that many people are interested in your= =20 response to our report. As I believe is well known, I made multiple statements, both to you=20 privately, as well as to the CMNS community, that New Energy Times would=20 afford you with the opportunity to rebut and respond. To date, you have=20 elected not to do so. I hope we all agree that a frank and forthright discussion is in the best=20 interests of the CMNS community. Failing an open response by you to the=20 significant issues raised by New Energy Times, it would seem reasonable and= =20 necessary to conclude that you find our investigation and findings rigorous= =20 and accurate. Thank you for that and I wish you good luck and success in=20 your endeavors. Sincerely, Steve Krivit Editor, New Energy Times New Energy Times Five-Part Investigation Into D2Fusion: http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d21 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d22 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d23 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d24 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d25 --=====================_684295906==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AN OPEN LETTER TO RUSS GEORGE
 
Dear Mr. George,
 
It's been six months since we published our report in New Energy Times on your work and that of D2Fusion.
 
People in the CMNS community are still asking me =96 as recently as last week =96 if D2Fusion ever provided any form of response, either formal or informal, to our investigation. I tell them that we have not received any communication from you or D2Fusion, that you have not challenged our facts, our context or our representations.
 
Consequently, I've decided to send this open letter to you, by way of the CMNS and VORTEX lists, as I gather that many people are interested in your response to our report.
 
As I believe is well known, I made multiple statements, both to you privately, as well as to the CMNS community, that New Energy Times would afford you with the opportunity to rebut and respond. To date, you have elected not to do so.
 
I hope we all agree that a frank and forthright discussion is in the best interests of the CMNS community. Failing an open response by you to the significant issues raised by New Energy Times, it would seem reasonable and necessary to conclude that you find our investigation and findings rigorous and accurate.  Thank you for that and I wish you good luck and success in your endeavors.
 
Sincerely,
 
Steve Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
 
New Energy Times Five-Part Investigation Into D2Fusion:
 
http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d21
 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d22
 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d23
 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d24
 http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET16.htm#d25
 
--=====================_684295906==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 6 13:41:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA6Lf5JP023685; Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:41:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA6LetbB023531; Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:40:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 13:40:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061106163810.041d4170 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:40:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: AN OPEN LETTER TO RUSS GEORGE In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061105215123.02b57438 mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061105215123.02b57438 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If Russ does not feel like talking about this, why bother him? What difference does it make? If I were him, I doubt I would want to respond. When this article came out I felt that Steve was making a mountain out of a molehill, and after some consideration I still feel that way. I wish Steve would devote his considerable energy to more important subjects. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 00:56:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA78tsZ6017317; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:55:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA78tpH7017264; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:55:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 00:55:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pP60La0pZz5ktWlr/PpaynO8QQi68YJURzjas/M05Cls2Ru6dOp0uvSXj6nYRH9L; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <4119-22006112785532482 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 01:55:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409aed54c8143021476ad637574bf43d31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.154 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Scroll Expander-Compressor Brayton Cycle Engine Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For Terry's Cat House? :-) http://www.ebaumsworld.com/tags/pet-lessons/ 5,228,309Portable self-contained power and cooling system "Orbiting scroll expander element 221 and orbiting scroll air compressor element 240 are fixedly secured to a central support frame 253, which includes a pair of spaced plate members 256, 257, by first and second truss structures 260 aid 263 respectively. Spaced plate members 256 and 257 are interconnected by a plurality of circumferentially spaced connecting tubes by means of a plurality of bolts 269 and nuts 271. By this construction, orbiting scroll expander element 221 and orbiting scroll air compressor element 240 are integrally connected to form a unitary structure. Therefore, orbiting of one of the scroll elements will also cause orbiting of the other scroll element." Under $500.00 using junkyard Mitsubishi FX105V Scroll Compressor/Modified Expander plus a homebrew combustion chamber, belted together. http://www.a-aironline.com/detail.aspx?ID=134 http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vsc.jpg http://www.redrok.com/images/fx105vcv.jpg ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
For Terry's Cat House?   :-)
 
 
 
"Orbiting scroll expander element 221 and orbiting scroll air compressor element 240 are fixedly secured to a central support frame 253, which includes a pair of spaced plate members 256, 257, by first and second truss structures 260 aid 263 respectively. Spaced plate members 256 and 257 are interconnected by a plurality of circumferentially spaced connecting tubes by means of a plurality of bolts 269 and nuts 271. By this construction, orbiting scroll expander element 221 and orbiting scroll air compressor element 240 are integrally connected to form a unitary structure. Therefore, orbiting of one of the scroll elements will also cause orbiting of the other scroll element."
 
Under $500.00 using junkyard Mitsubishi FX105V Scroll Compressor/Modified Expander
plus a homebrew combustion chamber, belted together.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 02:41:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA7Ae3kM026778; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 02:41:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA7AZPbH023473; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 02:35:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 02:35:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hiRoM6W6FCqO27GDPD3o06UM2/1Q28hy/n08pQ7YK2YouLBp1MDjhs1r7Y3+4WGx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006112710351619 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:35:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406505f15df031b2bf099e482e2613faf4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.23 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Brayton Cycle & Scroll Compressor-Expander Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Same thing with belted Scroll Compressor-Expander plus using an external heater chamber. Lower RPMs and Higher Torque than a comparable gas turbine too. Better than a rotary engine/Wankel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Same thing with belted Scroll Compressor-Expander plus
using an external heater chamber.
 
Lower RPMs and Higher Torque than a comparable gas turbine too.
 
Better than a rotary engine/Wankel?
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 03:09:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA7B8fsW018072; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:08:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA7B8d3F018047; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 03:08:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=K2xG+IF7N6PNtlLOsrDql7rjiboI9QEWyT0L7mfXc2LNUYGfuxoLF8GO/uNcZpD+; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006112711836345 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: The Brayton Cycle & Scroll Compressor-Expander Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 04:08:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94052e108496cd26ee79e5b8d5ce3e86f86350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.161 Resent-Message-ID: <4OZ0gC.A.6ZE.3kGUFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII An Engine Calculator: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/7/2006 3:47:01 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Brayton Cycle & Scroll Compressor-Expander Same thing with belted Scroll Compressor-Expander plus using an external heater chamber. Lower RPMs and Higher Torque than a comparable gas turbine too. Better than a rotary engine/Wankel? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/7/2006 3:47:01 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Brayton Cycle & Scroll Compressor-Expander

Same thing with belted Scroll Compressor-Expander plus
using an external heater chamber.
 
Lower RPMs and Higher Torque than a comparable gas turbine too.
 
Better than a rotary engine/Wankel?
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 12:10:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA7KAKSk031303; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 12:10:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA7KA9nn031206; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 12:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 12:10:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=sosYhaXoXCElwdu/dcsQgTMIWl9UQOsQNsK0f554RJ9RYXjTeEAcTy0OGIhSUEzsT31QGt9yVw5kwYuT2HGK2LpdQEWHaiqiUI1NshEbMUf1OsfbmFtkGBWkO6DjxPthkdEI1nqWJkepgZATJcMAvkOM7LF4cGZeqM4ovFyK2VM= ; Message-ID: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 12:10:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Merucry and the Vortex Prophecy ? Status: O X-Status: A "transit" of the planet Mercury, aka the "Mercury Passage" is a relatively rare and special event in the Heavens ... which had significant meaning to the ancients. Today it seems to be a yawner, but what do we know? There are only about a dozen "passages" in any given century, but there will be one tommorrow, following the election. Mercury went retrograde this past weekend. That will last until Nov. 17th. These two overlaps taken together might imply to some mystics that next week will be a "defining week" in the technological history of the first decade of the 21st century. Curiously, Mercury controls the day of the week which is now called "Wednesday," so the Passage has increased significance to astrology when it happens on this day. The Retrograde of Mercury and Venus also had meaning to the ancients, particularly in the "fertile crescent" where much or this kind of mysticism originated; and I am a bit surprised that the verdict against you-know-who did not wait until tommorrow. But Muslims and Christians alike have forgotten some of their heritage in astrological mysticism - for better or for worse. Probably for better, but it is fun to at least put this kind of observation out there with its furthest implications and into print; then if it should prove accurate - provide some kind of "told-you-so" mysti-condescension. To India mystics, this planet was called Budhi and in later Greek mythology, the god Hermes who became the Roman's Mercury (and then became a convenient way for chic-ladies to burn several $k on a scarf from Macy's) but this god, when scarf-less, was usually shown carrying a caduceus - a symbolic scepter, around which two serpents are intertwined. Most of the readers of this forum, however, recognize this image as a Vortex. In astrological symbolism, the planet Mercury represents the mind, technology and particularly the intellectual processes and the memory function (i.e artificial intelligence and computers). IOW "the quick" ones. The caduceus symbol, as we know, was appropriated by the medical profession, which uses it as its emblem today because Mercury supposedly had a good deal to do with healing processes; but indeed it is much broader and with other weird and wonderful happenings outside of healing- possibly including any technology which the gods wanted to be sent to humanity, more-or-less "out of the blue". IOW, Mercury/Hermes was seen as the personal errand boy for the great ruler of the sky, Zeus/Jupiter ... or today some would say "Valis" . To add a dose of humbling deprecation [for the benefit of the more traditional 'believers' on this forum] - the modern Sci-Fi spiritualist - the ones who think of divinity as actually being present in the form of alien intelligence (or Valis) it is appropriate to call them Dick-heads, in honor of their great prophet PK Dick, aka 'horselover fats.' So the prophets-moderne amongst-us might also suspect that tommorrow,and/or up till the end of retrograde on November 17, will be controlled by Mercury and will be the most fitting time for a really big announcement in technology - either the field of medicine, or perhaps energy technology, or AI. Really big. However, Mercury was/is also unpredictable (how else could he all-of-a-sudden just go into retrograde) ... and always full of good-natured mischief. The trickster, kokopelli ... ah, yes - the ancient lineage of Harry Tuttle, always dodging the suits of 'Central Services'. Time will tell... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 14:34:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA7MYS0i020209; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:34:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA7MYP4N020175; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:34:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:34:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eGw2nFWfc8s7JmvCJ0qug8lXMtfcD9aNoOtz6XG60Af0ED3lf5YOK+KN6Ja+9x9fuZgcGLqxjiwzqZB8zeiFR3qBtMSITY0Clic98iM97jnlAmyJHvM6rRDFsY0sagVc9ZK2G68CXsxtEk0tZB8A+j7Yso9v5AtAcb66ETuUncY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:34:23 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Merucry and the Vortex Prophecy ? In-Reply-To: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/7/06, Jones Beene wrote: > In astrological symbolism, the planet Mercury represents the mind, > technology and particularly the intellectual processes and the > memory function (i.e artificial intelligence and computers). IOW > "the quick" ones. Ackshully 'quick' means 'living'; hence "living silver". Terry (exhausted after moving 12 miles to escape the Alamo). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 7 15:50:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA7No4RO027791; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:50:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA7Nk0Sd022406; Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:46:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:46:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bY8c61qY/Ywokc4EsjQT0YZyWxff//cnuPrOHVJYQ4O/TGZc6F4xIEnKYJmLbJd6wQale758zTqByr0HiTtIBSMep4vcd98s53q4GU3fNipkpoHcaO/uKPV4lKROal4C81W8WWxQUxgZFz/hLlW6ecCFGdxJDNl0f1pYIAQDXtI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:45:23 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Merucry and the Vortex Prophecy ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19077_25181764.1162943123847" References: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <-k2HNC.A.6dF.3qRUFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_19077_25181764.1162943123847 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so most likely a liquid metal 'living' AI technology ala T2... ;) On 11/8/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 11/7/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > > In astrological symbolism, the planet Mercury represents the mind, > > technology and particularly the intellectual processes and the > > memory function (i.e artificial intelligence and computers). IOW > > "the quick" ones. > > Ackshully 'quick' means 'living'; hence "living silver". > > Terry (exhausted after moving 12 miles to escape the Alamo). > > ------=_Part_19077_25181764.1162943123847 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so most likely a liquid metal 'living' AI technology ala T2... ;)

On 11/8/06, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com > wrote:
On 11/7/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net > wrote:

> In astrological symbolism, the planet Mercury represents the mind,
> technology and particularly the intellectual processes and the
> memory function (i.e artificial intelligence and computers). IOW
> "the quick" ones.

Ackshully 'quick' means 'living'; hence "living silver".

Terry (exhausted after moving 12 miles to escape the Alamo).


------=_Part_19077_25181764.1162943123847-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 02:50:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8Ao3t0026062; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:50:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8ATpAG014376; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:29:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 02:29:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c70320$cd737080$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:29:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Merucry and the Vortex Prophecy ? Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene waxed lyrical on Mercury going widdershins and creating all sorts of techno announcements. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs - Steve Krivit's video introduction to an article he's publishing on Friday. Be amazed. Nick Palmer P.S. I'm very dubious about astrology! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 05:30:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8DU7s8027769; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 05:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8DSWkT026594; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 05:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 05:28:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c70339$aec0f950$1d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: MERUCRY and the Vortex Prophecy? Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:27:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70307.605005E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70307.605005E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70307.605499C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70307.605499C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNick Palmer wrote, P.S. I'm very dubious about astrology!=20 Slate Magazine today on net... "In fact, the best news of the 2006 elections is the opportunity it = gives Democrats to earn the lasting support of the independents and = disgruntled Republicans whose votes just dropped in our laps. Tuesday = was the death knell for Rovism=97the quaint and now fully discredited = theory that majorities are built not by expanding support with ideas = that work but by mobilizing extreme minorities with ideas that aren't = meant to be enacted and wouldn't work if they did " Hmmm!!!, More carnival than astrology but what the heck, Jones said it like it = is. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70307.605499C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Nick Palmer wrote,

P.S. I'm very dubious about astrology! =
 
Slate Magazine today on net...
 
"In fact, the best news of the 2006 elections is the opportunity it = gives=20 Democrats to earn the lasting support of the independents and = disgruntled=20 Republicans whose votes just dropped in our laps. Tuesday was the death = knell=20 for Rovism=97the quaint and now fully discredited theory that majorities = are built=20 not by expanding support with ideas that work but by mobilizing extreme=20 minorities with ideas that aren't meant to be enacted and wouldn't work = if they=20 did "
 
Hmmm!!!,
 
More carnival than astrology but what the heck, Jones said it like = it=20 is.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70307.605499C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70307.605005E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c70339$aa117b00$1d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70307.605005E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 07:01:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8F0oEi013259; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:00:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8F0lkZ013176; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:00:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:00:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ld23aZjrLp53jhY17JNdi8VAE9n7haexr+djJEW/2gm/PIkLeBaE9tzKSxkUcM8pvHN4qqX+M76hMp+1szsLxB/kVi1e/uYR5S6B07M5a/XJ7WRVXMWsrL1MIYBA36vjEeYSead2l3lL0Etw5andXFRMnER+ezfXi8OeTcnCZdo= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:00:40 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Merucry and the Vortex Prophecy ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <006401c702a8$b4bb3f00$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/7/06, John Berry wrote: > Ok, so most likely a liquid metal 'living' AI technology ala T2... ;) Yes, I saw that on TV in a fit of exhaustion this week. Loved the scene where he passes through the bars in the nuthouse. I guess I'll watch "The Quick and the Dead" next. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 07:46:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8FjqpL028765; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:45:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8Fjn2O028720; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:45:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:45:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bon4xWGfqxwZDAF+ZftXpbfgPvkvZgqJ8Hq1T82RqXFmzD8FQuTxXtoMeLDlBRav; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220061138154535886 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 08:45:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94022d725b3587860aaaf93a75c33fd3291350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.84 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Peroxide Fueled Scroll Compressor-Expander Brayton Engine Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This should keep you happy, Jones. Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2). Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle 5,112,702 (1992) du Pont "This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations." Peroxide powered engines for naval vessels: 6,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition "Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This should keep you happy, Jones.
 
Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle
combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst
such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2).
 
Fred
 
 
5,112,702    (1992) du Pont
 
"This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations."
 
Peroxide powered engines for naval vessels:
6,255,009 Full-Text Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition
 
"Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion."
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifAIqw9OUmFh.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifAIqw9OUmFh.gif Content-Id: <410-22006113815453246120 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 10:35:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8IZU5w020250; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:35:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8IZSNC020198; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:35:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:35:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: UCRPeyMVM1kgz4S_ZKRsSONkHAep9ofh42v3woa7_DB.6MYQpHExGNoQabYJGZlnjJBsTHiGwIQBhhekFWQ7IbyD.mMWB2oylJEyv772Z9ptX8jZJjhxiw-- Message-ID: <45522362.9070906 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:35:14 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Stealthy Cloak References: <200610241049.15745.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> In-Reply-To: <200610241049.15745.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > On Tuesday 24 October 2006 04:06, Harry Veeder wrote: >> They must be reverse engineering a >> crashed Romulan spaceship. >> >> ;-) >> >> Harry >> >> Terry Blanton wrote: >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6064620.stm >>> >>> Experts create invisibility cloak >>> By Paul Rincon >>> Science reporter, BBC News >>> >>> A US-British team of scientists has successfully tested a cloak of >>> invisibility in the laboratory. >>> >>> The device mostly hid a small copper cylinder from microwaves in tests >>> at Duke University, North Carolina. >>> >>> It works by deflecting the microwaves around the object and restoring >>> them on the other side, as if they had passed through empty space. >>> >>> > > Bet these things are being built and fitted to RAF birds as you read this! I don't think this one's actually useful for cloaking, even if it could be extended to cover an entire airplane (and if the mechanism could be carried aboard the plane). The problem is that the only advantage of "true invisibility" over a really good coat of "black paint" comes when someone could otherwise see you by observing your silhouette (like an X-ray or shadow play). If they observe you only by shining a "flashlight beam" on you, when you're placed against a non-reflective background (such as the sky), then black paint works just as well as "true invisibility". Since this particular scheme currently works only in the radar range, we need to look at how radar works -- it doesn't see silhouettes, and what's more it doesn't use ambient radiation. Rather, it shines a "flashlight beam" on the target and looks at the reflected radiation. So, "black paint" -- (part of) Stealth bomber technology -- works just as well as active invisibility when dealing with radar. The other part of Stealth bomber technology, which is (apparently!) to bounce the radiation off in just a few random directions which _usually_ won't include the radar receiver on the ground (hence hard edges and flat planes, rather than smooth curves which would reflect omnidirectionally), works because there isn't any ambient radar radiation to speak of. With visible light, the story changes -- we often observe things against bright backgrounds (such as sky), so silhouettes are useful for seeing things. A perfectly black object can be seen by the things it occludes. And lots of flat planes, to assure that the beam will hardly ever bounce directly back to the observer, doesn't help with visible light because there's so much ambient visible light around that _some_ lightsource will always be positioned so as to "light up" the object as seen by the observer. So "true invisibility" would make a huge difference in the visible spectrum. But this gadget is far, far from working in visible light, as I understand it. > > Standing Bear > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 11:05:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8J54tk021935; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:05:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8J51o2021896; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:05:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=4xnfHv8wS5saYG6veEd1QxjsCSwdXh3LiJFHvUybEsIpRLUAr/QxjFTLN6S/DiqmMBDmCeEcaQMcNNJ5jp/5QGEckRJeMEy/VAKEz1ygt5gn6vLLjVXX3V1VsLiE7Md3hjHFuCHuLOlLmdOItFNOQmWe2/OYwvAYjvao1p5Z97s= ; Message-ID: <006801c70365$0debdcd0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <411-220061138154535886 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:38:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01C70321.FED31940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C70321.FED31940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0065_01C70321.FED31940" ------=_NextPart_001_0065_01C70321.FED31940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Yes, using a monopropellant has many advantages despite having = comparatively low heat content - and opens up affordable options for = energy conversion, since a monopropellant can produce large amounts of = torque - but without most of the accompanying heat. Combustion heat = would make scroll compressors unusable, of course, as would corrosion. = Here is the Star-Rotor which is also an option for peroxide and your = solar idea:=20 http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:StarRotor_Corporation However, a simpler one-stage turbine, like the "exhaust" half of an = automotive turbocharger, might be the best overall choice for peroxide. = Corrosion is such a big problem with peroxide that sliding contact must = be minimal, even using stainless steel. The interesting thing about MnO and MnO2 is that these oxides are = two-way catalysts (as are many metal and metal oxide surface catalysts, = including silver) and will both (either) speed-up the formation but also = the decomposition of peroxide, based on reaching an *equilibrium* = percentage, which factor seems to have been ignored previously - because = it is a low percentage.=20 Using a reversible surface chemistry reaction is tricky: as both the = "speeding-up" by catalysis or the decomposition is amazingly fast - at = least as fast as one can possibly keep the dilute fraction in a reactor = below the equilibrium level... which is the hard part. I believe that the low-budget efforts of several inventors here, which I = am involved with and contributed the idea itself - has made one major = advance in all of this and that is a way to continuously and rapidly = separate out the dilute peroxide - just as it is formed but before it = reaches equilibrium - so that MnO catalyst works only to speed-up the = formation phase, before the decomposition phase would set in. It is a = delicate balance. This doesn't sound like a big deal but it could be, as it permits one to = get to a usable level of HOOH enrichment in only a few cascade stages = and also removes heat from the system - which so far as I can tell is = almost a *first* in electrochemistry. I say "almost" because very low = voltage electrolysis will remove heat. But by comparison, this process = seems to remove far more. IOW you can get to several gallons per hour = (possibly) of mid-grade HOOH using a few kWH of input, and perhaps even = justify the entire electrical input as "air conditioning". That is one = option. The system is far from perfected as of now but it would not = surprise me to see an immediate market for low cost (nearly = self-powered) air conditioning, when the bugs are worked out. Maybe some day you can finally get rid of your "swamper" and yet stay = cool in the desert heat without having to refinance the house to pay the = electric bill. Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2). Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle 5,112,702 (1992) du Pont "This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of = H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in = the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an = electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The = processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in = commercially useful concentrations."=20 Peroxide powered engines for naval vessels: 6,255,009 Combined cycle power generation using controlled = hydrogen peroxide decomposition =20 "Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft = and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on = conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery = discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste = products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere = to combine with the fuel for combustion." ------=_NextPart_001_0065_01C70321.FED31940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,
 
Yes, using a monopropellant has many advantages despite having=20 comparatively low heat content - and opens up affordable options = for energy=20 conversion, since a monopropellant can produce large = amounts=20 of torque - but without most of the accompanying heat. Combustion = heat=20 would make scroll compressors unusable, of course, as would = corrosion. Here=20 is the Star-Rotor which is also an option for peroxide and your solar = idea:=20
htt= p://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:StarRotor_Corporation
 
However, a simpler one-stage turbine, like the "exhaust" half of an = automotive turbocharger, might be the best overall choice for = peroxide.=20 Corrosion is such a big problem with peroxide that sliding contact must = be=20 minimal, even using stainless steel.
 
The interesting thing about MnO and MnO2 is that these oxides are = two-way=20 catalysts (as are many metal and metal oxide surface catalysts, = including=20 silver) and will both (either) speed-up the formation but also the = decomposition=20 of peroxide, based on reaching an *equilibrium* percentage, which factor = seems=20 to have been ignored previously - because it is a low percentage.
 
Using a reversible surface chemistry reaction is tricky: as = both the=20 "speeding-up" by catalysis or the decomposition is amazingly fast = - at=20 least as fast as one can possibly keep the dilute fraction in a = reactor=20 below the equilibrium level... which is the hard part.
 
I believe that the low-budget efforts of several inventors here, = which I am=20 involved with and contributed the idea itself - has made one major = advance in=20 all of this and that is a way to continuously and rapidly separate out = the=20 dilute peroxide - just as it is formed but before it reaches equilibrium = - so=20 that MnO catalyst works only to speed-up the formation phase, before the = decomposition phase would set in. It is a delicate balance.
 
This doesn't sound like a big deal but it could be, as it permits = one to=20 get to a usable level of HOOH enrichment in only a few cascade stages = and also=20 removes heat from the system - which so far as I can tell is almost a = *first* in=20 electrochemistry. I say "almost" because very low voltage electrolysis = will=20 remove heat. But by comparison, this process seems to remove far more. = IOW you=20 can get to several gallons per hour (possibly) of mid-grade HOOH using a = few kWH=20 of input, and perhaps even justify the entire electrical input = as "air=20 conditioning". That is one option. The system is far from perfected = as of=20 now but it would not surprise me to see an immediate market for low cost = (nearly=20 self-powered) air conditioning, when the bugs are worked out.
 
Maybe some day you can finally get rid of your "swamper" and yet = stay cool=20 in the desert heat without having to refinance the house to pay the = electric=20 bill.
 
 
Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle
combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst
such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2).
 
Fred
 
http://en.wikipedia.o= rg/wiki/Brayton_cycle
 
5,112,702    (1992) du Pont
 
"This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of = H.sub.2=20 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the = presence of=20 acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell = or in=20 the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein = permit=20 production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful = concentrations."
 
Peroxide powered engines = for naval=20 vessels:
6,255,009 3DFull-Text=20 Combined cycle power generation using controlled = hydrogen=20 peroxide decomposition
 
"Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, = aircraft=20 and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on = conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery = discharge.=20 This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste = products, such=20 as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine = with the=20 fuel for combustion."
------=_NextPart_001_0065_01C70321.FED31940-- ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C70321.FED31940 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifAIqw9OUmFh.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <006301c70365$0cf19e50$6401a8c0 NuDell> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C70321.FED31940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 12:16:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8KFl2P018494; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:15:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8KFgpP018400; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:15:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:15:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=uAOwJ2l/kcX0V88tVIkObgBjA3DwofxkDCziltdYqk1kV82RcDyUBaNc1lPl7xQ5; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-220061138201515405 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:15:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940adef210cbe43424abd687f45f0d43239350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It looks good Jones, but the Scroll Compressors-Expanders are highly efficient and have a couple of decades of usage track record in Domestic and Automotive refrigeration. The Mitsibushi FX105V should be junkyard cheap. As to MnO2 for H2O2 detection/decomposion I've plated it on metals from dilute aqueous Potassium Permanganate with a little added NaOH or KOH, and unlike Silver it stays active for years. Also note that the excess H2O in lower H2O2 concentrations will lower the Scroll Compressor work requirement (a 150 PSIG 600 F air that we got in a gas turbine) will use that work heat to evaporate more of the excess H2O. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: 11/8/2006 12:07:53 PM Subject: [Vo]: Fred, Yes, using a monopropellant has many advantages despite having comparatively low heat content - and opens up affordable options for energy conversion, since a monopropellant can produce large amounts of torque - but without most of the accompanying heat. Combustion heat would make scroll compressors unusable, of course, as would corrosion. Here is the Star-Rotor which is also an option for peroxide and your solar idea: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:StarRotor_Corporation However, a simpler one-stage turbine, like the "exhaust" half of an automotive turbocharger, might be the best overall choice for peroxide. Corrosion is such a big problem with peroxide that sliding contact must be minimal, even using stainless steel. The interesting thing about MnO and MnO2 is that these oxides are two-way catalysts (as are many metal and metal oxide surface catalysts, including silver) and will both (either) speed-up the formation but also the decomposition of peroxide, based on reaching an *equilibrium* percentage, which factor seems to have been ignored previously - because it is a low percentage. Using a reversible surface chemistry reaction is tricky: as both the "speeding-up" by catalysis or the decomposition is amazingly fast - at least as fast as one can possibly keep the dilute fraction in a reactor below the equilibrium level... which is the hard part. I believe that the low-budget efforts of several inventors here, which I am involved with and contributed the idea itself - has made one major advance in all of this and that is a way to continuously and rapidly separate out the dilute peroxide - just as it is formed but before it reaches equilibrium - so that MnO catalyst works only to speed-up the formation phase, before the decomposition phase would set in. It is a delicate balance. This doesn't sound like a big deal but it could be, as it permits one to get to a usable level of HOOH enrichment in only a few cascade stages and also removes heat from the system - which so far as I can tell is almost a *first* in electrochemistry. I say "almost" because very low voltage electrolysis will remove heat. But by comparison, this process seems to remove far more. IOW you can get to several gallons per hour (possibly) of mid-grade HOOH using a few kWH of input, and perhaps even justify the entire electrical input as "air conditioning". That is one option. The system is far from perfected as of now but it would not surprise me to see an immediate market for low cost (nearly self-powered) air conditioning, when the bugs are worked out. Maybe some day you can finally get rid of your "swamper" and yet stay cool in the desert heat without having to refinance the house to pay the electric bill. Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2). Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brayton_cycle 5,112,702 (1992) du Pont "This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations." Peroxide powered engines for naval vessels: 6,255,009Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition "Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
It looks good Jones, but the Scroll Compressors-Expanders are
highly efficient and have a couple of decades of usage track record
in Domestic and Automotive refrigeration.
The Mitsibushi FX105V should be junkyard cheap.
 
As to MnO2 for H2O2 detection/decomposion I've plated it on metals
from dilute aqueous Potassium Permanganate with a little added NaOH or KOH,
and unlike Silver it stays active for years.
 
Also note that the excess H2O in lower H2O2 concentrations will lower
the Scroll Compressor work requirement (a 150 PSIG 600 F
air that we got in a gas turbine) will use that work heat to evaporate
more of the excess H2O.
 
Fred
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/8/2006 12:07:53 PM
Subject: [Vo]:

Fred,
 
Yes, using a monopropellant has many advantages despite having comparatively low heat content - and opens up affordable options for energy conversion, since a monopropellant can produce large amounts of torque - but without most of the accompanying heat. Combustion heat would make scroll compressors unusable, of course, as would corrosion. Here is the Star-Rotor which is also an option for peroxide and your solar idea:
 
However, a simpler one-stage turbine, like the "exhaust" half of an automotive turbocharger, might be the best overall choice for peroxide. Corrosion is such a big problem with peroxide that sliding contact must be minimal, even using stainless steel.
 
The interesting thing about MnO and MnO2 is that these oxides are two-way catalysts (as are many metal and metal oxide surface catalysts, including silver) and will both (either) speed-up the formation but also the decomposition of peroxide, based on reaching an *equilibrium* percentage, which factor seems to have been ignored previously - because it is a low percentage.
 
Using a reversible surface chemistry reaction is tricky: as both the "speeding-up" by catalysis or the decomposition is amazingly fast - at least as fast as one can possibly keep the dilute fraction in a reactor below the equilibrium level... which is the hard part.
 
I believe that the low-budget efforts of several inventors here, which I am involved with and contributed the idea itself - has made one major advance in all of this and that is a way to continuously and rapidly separate out the dilute peroxide - just as it is formed but before it reaches equilibrium - so that MnO catalyst works only to speed-up the formation phase, before the decomposition phase would set in. It is a delicate balance.
 
This doesn't sound like a big deal but it could be, as it permits one to get to a usable level of HOOH enrichment in only a few cascade stages and also removes heat from the system - which so far as I can tell is almost a *first* in electrochemistry. I say "almost" because very low voltage electrolysis will remove heat. But by comparison, this process seems to remove far more. IOW you can get to several gallons per hour (possibly) of mid-grade HOOH using a few kWH of input, and perhaps even justify the entire electrical input as "air conditioning". That is one option. The system is far from perfected as of now but it would not surprise me to see an immediate market for low cost (nearly self-powered) air conditioning, when the bugs are worked out.
 
Maybe some day you can finally get rid of your "swamper" and yet stay cool in the desert heat without having to refinance the house to pay the electric bill.
 
 
Just pump the H2O2-H2O into the Brayton Cycle
combustion chamber onto a decomposition catalyst
such as Manganese Dioxide (MnO2).
 
Fred
 
 
5,112,702    (1992) du Pont
 
"This invention concerns improved processes for the synthesis of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 by means of the electrochemical reduction of oxygen in the presence of acid and halide, preferably bromide, conducted in an electrolytic cell or in the cathode compartment of a fuel cell. The processes described herein permit production of hydrogen peroxide in commercially useful concentrations."
 
Peroxide powered engines for naval vessels:
6,255,009 Full-Text Combined cycle power generation using controlled hydrogen peroxide decomposition
 
"Currently, motive power of carriers such as land vehicles, aircraft and/or maritime vessels require power generation which is dependent on conventional systems such as non-renewable fossil fuel or battery discharge. This power generation is inefficient and produces toxic waste products, such as carbon monoxide. Engines use the available atmosphere to combine with the fuel for combustion."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gifAIqw9OUmFh.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: gifAIqw9OUmFh.gif Content-Id: <410-2200611382015735424 13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAIAAAAAA////ACH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAIXDI4JFo2+FpSsTYtvtm9r34GH 92UJSRYAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 13:28:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8LSXfH029272; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:28:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8LSVaW029250; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:28:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:28:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=oXP2v9g3lAmmECPuCFjOU/bqBDE7tRvAXzsl8qds5Ov1WvJ9ZpaNL/YxmrdPEyPVxGfdzKFEuXBgkeo0gKz5MBYE0xGMWlsyOn5JCKaGzwxOaPblhcvrnaFx/GOCoiw7ddvNqnp2NdTXWkYb7Xc3Wqk5ys/JVpgZIpAcCpG8PZE= ; Message-ID: <002701c7037c$d525f0d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:28:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Got your IPO ready ? Status: O X-Status: http://blogs.reuters.com/2006/11/08/alternate-energy-etfs?src=daiblog From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 8 14:21:13 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA8M7BQt020436; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:07:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA8M78kw020409; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:07:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=NH2Derx49PCN5WavSY68wuzb8WwmT1x17CsHdzXmNkirEtMZiZDAqJFvlsMdBs/fUB+ELsG8W24MaThLvnzgpk+/fJO6l/h3M9pj0gH5ZFyXihcuAfCBN9DvJJrQtDd75UQAR1/ea4ETpbOy5z6lZCLBxsWb8Kupb9DrNq6zKcM= Message-ID: <357653710611081333p325382f0v71616df9ba670c1f mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 22:33:57 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden gmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Stealthy Cloak In-Reply-To: <45522362.9070906 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200610241049.15745.rockcastle lakeside1.net> <45522362.9070906 pobox.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c2880bed52470341 Resent-Message-ID: <_T5hbC.A.0-E.MUlUFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/8/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Since this particular scheme currently works only in the radar range, we > need to look at how radar works -- it doesn't see silhouettes, and > what's more it doesn't use ambient radiation. Rather, it shines a > "flashlight beam" on the target and looks at the reflected radiation. > So, "black paint" -- (part of) Stealth bomber technology -- works just > as well as active invisibility when dealing with radar. The other part > of Stealth bomber technology, which is (apparently!) to bounce the > radiation off in just a few random directions which _usually_ won't > include the radar receiver on the ground (hence hard edges and flat > planes, rather than smooth curves which would reflect > omnidirectionally), works because there isn't any ambient radar > radiation to speak of. This is disinformation. The Stealth comes from the minimized bow shock which can be detected on radar. Don't propagate deception. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 9 09:14:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA9HAGAl023421; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:14:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA9Gwse8014863; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:58:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:58:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iAbBl4A4PkmGFp0z3qgNWKrGlFFfPtpkEAqMq8NxmC7aTy1EKpL5CUhko2AzNGBlOHJiYauJzDL05LarOPoLIuyjROJlvl+UTTvE6Yu7scDq22ZRpB2N6wLFLhKzJsKTbJKHHPnVDXmkpRsOmNUEkxITL19IowfyIFVmq9jrMy4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:40:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . Status: O X-Status: . . . when you're not anywhere at all. http://www.firesigntheatre.com/albums/album.php?album=hcyb http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225764.400-the-quantum-world-is-about-to-get-bigger.html http://tinyurl.com/upoxy "The quantum world is about to get bigger 01 November 2006 >From New Scientist Print Edition. The quantum world is about to get bigger thanks to a technique that will allow objects big enough to see with the naked eye to exist in two places at once." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 9 09:41:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA9HfRWO029340; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:41:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA9HfMJe029293; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:41:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:41:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=sqWclOyFbeC8g4Hv8/YL2itKX/zd6OOdrmpz3Dw0i5xi8vg5InizdCnOn1Yas9w2yh+PfDkLyGuCRPFSrJLleyOzfn8fwVCDMFG6i8wTlHR6peDjg8x9V8sQprK9L2YCI8vQgitcw7kO73K6k+YOL7gNexCH/Ogm+27A5C6kwdA= ; Message-ID: <003601c70426$3c18b8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:41:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . Status: O X-Status: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . . . . when you're not anywhere at all. Oh my ... and with a sound byte from none other than Defective Nick Danger. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY ... to paraphrase Nick, the correct answer is: "don't cut yourself off at the past" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 9 15:56:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kA9NdqoD014286; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:39:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kA9Ndnif014250; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:39:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uDIKittPL4zQqe3VpL6xJPWTt8Bp3LmhnLbTEI85ss/EJcDolNCbhPfaAZtf/+6KZvP3CRPHlmcnhuuFCYHbjJ790zBFe24zRCTtPovbpUVc5l8pmVk0fWm3SqGlQS0N6ZnOiM8WBqtjh3dXX3KpKHWixcsAynbDGD5HeA6FQec= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:32:12 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . In-Reply-To: <003601c70426$3c18b8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003601c70426$3c18b8f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In 1978, my then wife was studying theatre at Georgia State University. We actually transcribed "Nick Danger, Third Eye" to make a script for a play at GSU. It was a hit. It also played at the local artsy-fartsy theatre where the critics said that it was "amusing, but why do it?" Terry On 11/9/06, Jones Beene wrote: > How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . > > . . . when you're not anywhere at all. > > > Oh my ... and with a sound byte from none other than Defective > Nick Danger. > > EXECUTIVE SUMMARY > > ... to paraphrase Nick, the correct answer is: > "don't cut yourself off at the past" > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 9 17:32:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAA1VvQX021320; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:32:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAA1VtpY021274; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:31:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:31:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c70467$fafc74a0$49c7163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 20:31:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:40 AM Subject: [Vo]: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . > "The quantum world is about to get bigger > 01 November 2006 > From New Scientist Print Edition. > > The quantum world is about to get bigger thanks to a technique that > will allow objects big enough to see with the naked eye to exist in > two places at once." ...You can of course, only see the mirror and not the magical quantum effects, but only detect them with XYZ unspecified measurement techniques, whose results will no doubt be debatable as to exactly "what" was observed. And then observing it will affect it....ad nauseam ad tedium ad infinatum.... you see where this is going. If they can show me a mirror that is undeniably in two places at once, then I will believe this. Until then, I'll stick to commanding electrons to do my bidding in classically-designed equipment. "Remember...no matter where you go....there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai --Kyle, definitely in one place, and not both or neither. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 9 21:04:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAA53kvZ023074; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:03:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAA53hs9023052; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:03:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:03:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 21:06:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_115011625==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_115011625==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_115011625==.ALT" --=====================_115011625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Emacs! Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions November 10, 2006 -- Issue #19 ISSUE #19 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm EDITORIALS AND OPINION 1. Guest Editorial 2. To the Editor NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS 3. The 13th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF-13) 4. American Physical Society March Meeting 5. Symposium on New Energy Technology at the American Chemical Society 6. The 13th International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Energy Sciences (ICENES-2007) ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES 7. Extraordinary Evidence 8. The Galileo Project 9. Brief Report on ASTI'06 Workshop 10. PUBLICATIONS 11. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS 12. BITS AND PIECES New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. We invite you to join with us in this effort to help bring a better future for all of earth's current and future residents. ---------- If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_115011625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Emacs!

Your best source for news and information on low energy nuclear reactions
November 10, 2006 -- Issue #19


ISSUE #19 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm

 

EDITORIALS AND OPINION
1.   Guest Editorial
2.   To the Editor
NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
3.   The 13th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF-13)
4.   American Physical Society March Meeting
5.   Symposium on New Energy Technology at the American Chemical Society
6.   The 13th International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Energy Sciences (ICENES-2007)
ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES
7.   Extraordinary Evidence
8.   The Galileo Project
9.   Brief Report on ASTI’06 Workshop
10. PUBLICATIONS
11. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS
12. BITS AND PIECES

 


New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.

We invite you to join with us in this effort to help bring a better future for all of earth's current and future residents.


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ZNY8Sazf3+t3kMUdnocE2pPb+HtE0bw/b22jw/WWB1xz60U08EEk4HGACck8DpyeSOxr+BMfjcZm WNxWYY+tUxmMxuJliK9Wo05yqVJc05ycneUuZuTd7vRRira/0PhMLSweGo4WjG0KUeVN3cpNvrvq 33u31berdRRRXObhRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAFR4o2aPdGjfvHPKKeQ4API7AAfQAd BUhiiWSMrHGp+flUUHheOQKKK638D/wTPLp/8jWt/wBfI/8ApgnooorkPUCiiigAooooAKKKKACi iigD/9k= --=====================_115011625==.REL-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 06:50:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAEoBH6003218; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:50:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAEo8kf003153; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:50:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:50:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aO6HztLWjpVOtmhs4aKtZcKa+QkO9Uty3bktCmM0Qc93L7ipYrLRpOBqjd0Hqvv3nDetfTn65JiuLfAa8zY2ptPyryWJ371B9DJ8rteZJ/WL3NP7aJ+LVqAONvBjKGRVGD+6IxUB0RTxs9jLIet3fSZSurZToNZcS05iOfbwoMY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:43:47 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . In-Reply-To: <001101c70467$fafc74a0$49c7163f DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001101c70467$fafc74a0$49c7163f DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More detail here: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=A4DC24B0-E7F2-99DF-32F55BBC5A8AD953 http://tinyurl.com/uvjvy Terry On 11/9/06, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:40 AM > Subject: [Vo]: How Can You Be in Two Places at Once . . . > > > > "The quantum world is about to get bigger > > 01 November 2006 > > From New Scientist Print Edition. > > > > The quantum world is about to get bigger thanks to a technique that > > will allow objects big enough to see with the naked eye to exist in > > two places at once." > > ...You can of course, only see the mirror and not the magical quantum > effects, but only detect them with XYZ unspecified measurement techniques, > whose results will no doubt be debatable as to exactly "what" was observed. > And then observing it will affect it....ad nauseam ad tedium ad > infinatum.... you see where this is going. > > If they can show me a mirror that is undeniably in two places at once, then > I will believe this. Until then, I'll stick to commanding electrons to do my > bidding in classically-designed equipment. > > "Remember...no matter where you go....there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai > > --Kyle, definitely in one place, and not both or neither. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 07:37:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAFbdI1017069; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:37:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAFbaAD017017; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:37:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:37:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=m6Y1c8R++mra0CjzI7yIRjwoBobdF3pMJHEDYvxuoOJW/1aUdfeqQ8KmlQ7afYHWG2jdytyrjpNMNTwBDTSbecMRetS9P6Nf0X7Ao4tnLOZwnBKKyb6MqVf3GwpUewkzSvFIApd3m1oMOGMhq5pFPhP1NrpI+lksz6ITkDSJoJw= ; Message-ID: <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-668181098-1163172655=:67479" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-668181098-1163172655=:67479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline I have supplied a Subject Header. We'll see if it takes. Looks like Steve has become infected with "blank-Vo syndrome". Glad I'm not the only one. Seriously - EVERYONE on this forum who is interested in LENR (isn't that tout le monde?) MUST READ and I do mean *must* Item # seven in this Issue. I may be the most important news to come along in many a blue moon. --- Steven Krivit wrote: > Your best source for news and information on low > energy nuclear reactions > November 10, 2006 -- Issue #19 > ISSUE #19 is available online at > http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm --0-668181098-1163172655=:67479-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 09:25:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAHK8VB007398; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:25:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAGSPFp012823; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:28:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:28:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061110112121.041fdc38 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:28:07 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Seriously - EVERYONE on this forum who is interested in LENR (isn't >that tout le monde?) MUST READ and I do mean *must* Item # seven in >this Issue. Direct link to item #7: http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#ee See also: http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2006BossP-Pd-D-NDIA-Presentation.pdf This is vitally important research, and an excellent article by Steve. I have been arguing with him furiously, and weedling him & Pam for days to include some additional information. But this is pretty darn good to start with. I hope they publish more soon. To make a long story short, I think the most important aspect of this is that Pam Boss et al. have discovered that a strong magnetic field or a high voltage field can trigger a cold fusion reaction. Others have noted this in the past, but no one has used such high voltage, as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 10:14:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAIDl33003330; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:13:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAIDji7003306; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:13:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:13:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20061110181347.00f30f08 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:13:47 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [82.69.24.243] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:30 am 10/11/2006 -0800, you wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Content-Id: >Content-Disposition: inline > >I have supplied a Subject Header. We'll see if it >takes. Looks like Steve has become infected with >"blank-Vo syndrome". Glad I'm not the only one. > >Seriously - EVERYONE on this forum who is interested >in LENR (isn't that tout le monde?) MUST READ and I >do mean *must* Item # seven in this Issue. > >I may be the most important news to come along in many >a blue moon. > Verrr...y interesting. I hope it make the skeptics choke. 8-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 10:23:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAIMv7m014032; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:22:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAIMuSF014014; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:22:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:22:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=YBiLGzt2fP/N8BAQSmx8KhKMP6lGdpBeUJhYWss5KHtQ5+Mnuwar2C9YiZZxJ8f8LqFWG0HgiI1dn0tQYtqbkFprKHHQrkJaFuiAEAQyXjBcDMxvKqhkIwiSy0X+H9kWKHG/FWsZAso6OCfVQMf/jmWcn3S2mliATfNhuT3kdUY= ; Message-ID: <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:22:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061110112121.041fdc38 mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > the most important aspect of this is that Pam Boss et > al. have discovered that a strong magnetic field or > a high voltage field can trigger a cold fusion > reaction. Others have noted this in the past, but no > one has used such high voltage, as far as I know. Actually, as far as the high voltage - Claytor did employ that with success some time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure if he ever saw this kind of reliability (repeatability). We all hope that this work will not be ignored, as his was. But one important thing here which pops out to me is indeed the importance of the magnetic field - and the likelihood from that variable - that this added constraint (on deuteron mobility) reinforces the notion (quasi BEC hypothesis) mentioned many times on vortex years ago (perhaps first by Frank Z or maybe it was by Horace Heffner)... ... that LENR happens in a loaded matrix because the loading and the near-field of the metal can creates a loss of freedom of movement in the trapped molecular boson, and consequently bears a similarity to a *pre-BEC state,* which can exist at high temperature (unlike the traditional BEC which is cryogenic); and consequently there could be a transitory swing into temporal phases of coherency (nanosecond time frame) leading to QM fusion. This transitory-BEC hypothesis is probably in need of refinement and expansion, given these results - and developments in the new field of excitonics. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 10:56:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAIuQGS012810; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:56:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAIuO4Q012793; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:56:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:56:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061110134823.041c4b58 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:56:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061110112121.041fdc38 mindspring.com> <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Actually, as far as the high voltage - Claytor did employ that with >success some time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Good point. I guess the co-dep cathode is more likely to work than Claytor's cathode in the first place, so the high voltage is more likely to trigger something. Other examples of good results with high-voltage include Ohmori & Mizuno's glow discharge -- similar to Claytor; and Swartz's high impedance electrolyte (Ed Storms pointed out the resemblance to me). I think I recall Cravens tried high voltage, as well as lasers. From ICCF10: Increase of the Output of Neutrons in Relation to Background Deuterium Containing Electrolite at Their Electrochemical Decomposition - Superelectrolytes K. A. Kaliev, and J. A. Istomin "Electrolysis using higher than normal voltage is used to increase the rate of various nuclear reactions that generate neutrons." (Storms summary) >But one important thing here which pops out to me is indeed the >importance of the magnetic field - and the likelihood from that variable . . . Recent experiments have been with the voltage field only, not the magnet. I think the voltage approach works better. >... that LENR happens in a loaded matrix because the loading and the >near-field of the metal can creates a loss of freedom of movement in >the trapped molecular boson . . . Is this applicable to the voltage field as well? I know so little of theory I cannot judge. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 11:03:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAJ3U5F018251; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:03:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAJ3Qig018214; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:03:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:01:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-reply-to: <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6sb7ZB.A.acE.-zMVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > This transitory-BEC hypothesis > is probably in need of refinement and expansion, given > these results - and developments in the new field of > excitonics. > Excitonics? Do tell. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 11:52:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAJo9fF018840; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:52:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAJV3Dg008549; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:31:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:31:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110113152.02a14298 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:33:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:30 AM 11/10/2006, you wrote: >I have supplied a Subject Header. We'll see if it >takes. Looks like Steve has become infected with >"blank-Vo syndrome". Glad I'm not the only one. I don't know why the header dropped. I sent the same exact message to the CMNS list and the header (subject line) was retained in that post. This was the original header (subject line): NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) NOV. 10, 2006 -- Issue #19 Any thoughts on a disinfectant are appreciated Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 12:28:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAKSYRS018421; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:28:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAKSTCV018382; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:28:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:28:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110113030.02a07a70 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:31:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061110112121.041fdc38 mindspring.com> <20061110182254.57929.qmail web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Actually, as far as the high voltage - Claytor did >employ that with success some time ago, if I'm not >mistaken. Jones, Through the electrolytic circuit or in an outside field? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 14:57:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAAMvRkf023137; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:57:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAAMvPuM023116; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:57:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:57:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fpW0vyQS6dbncFDyeX7fEuc3fv+TU3ouxi+KrDLVnr1xnLMPSQhGCpxR6X+SWLI03kxuhxszl24PQCHZmDBlRJ/wFsq0GTMylan5C3u5As0GA2hYEscibJXHCmC4wHTydqwpJlqfULGDXRaHZ+/TfnXcU1DiCpLTTJJOFBkHH+Q= ; Message-ID: <20061110225723.92175.qmail web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:57:23 -0800 (PST) From: Paul To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110113152.02a14298 mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <3rx1UB.A.EpF.UPQVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics??? Status: O X-Status: Any EE knows that an enclosed box at room temperature containing air, wire, and an appropriate load can generate so-called "free energy" 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The amount of continuous power for a single object is: P = 4 K T dF K is Boltzmann constant T is temperature in Kelvin df is bandwidth. room temperature say 1 GHz dF we get just 17 pW. Not much power, but such an object could be a nano particle. One trillion of such objects generates 17 watts. Increase the bandwidth 1 THz and we get 17 kilowatts. Quote taken from WikiPedia.org: "Since any thermodynamic engine requires such a temperature difference, it follows that no useful work can be derived from an isolated system in equilibrium; there must always be an external energy source and a cold sink. The second law is often invoked as the reason why perpetual motion machines cannot exist." ^ Incorrect ^ I think the Philosopher / Physicist P.W. Bridgman, (1941) said it best "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Free Uniden 5.8GHz Phone System with Packet8 Internet Phone Service http://www.getpacket8.net/yahoo2 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 17:13:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB1A5mf014505; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:12:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB11LHj008254; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:01:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:01:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics??? Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:01:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110113152.02a14298 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110225723.92175.qmail@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061110225723.92175.qmail web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 11 Nov 2006 01:01:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAB11CLa008143 Resent-Message-ID: <6FXLzD.A.nAC.fDSVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Paul's message of Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:57:23 -0800 (PST): Hi Paul, [snip] >Any EE knows that an enclosed box at room temperature >containing air, wire, and an appropriate load can >generate so-called "free energy" 24 hours a day, 365 >days a year. [snip] >Quote taken from WikiPedia.org: >"Since any thermodynamic engine requires such a >temperature difference, it follows that no useful work >can be derived from an isolated system in equilibrium; >there must always be an external energy source and a >cold sink. The second law is often invoked as the >reason why perpetual motion machines cannot exist." [snip] Any diode equates to a cold sink at zero Kelvin, if one has a means of "down shifting" thermal energy into the radio range where diodes can be applied. This is based on the notion that a "frequency" of 0 Hz matches a temperature of 0 K, and 0 Hz = DC = diode. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 17:23:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB1NOdC026491; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:23:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB1NMM1026468; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:23:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:23:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:08:21 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Message-ID: <20061111010821.GA21435 linux> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: <_yOyXB.A.cdG.KYSVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those are indeed wonderful results from the, er, space war people, but I don't understand how an external DC electric field can have any effect inside the electrolytic cell. The resistance of the container walls is so much greater than that of the electrolyte that all of the voltage drop, i.e., the electric field, would be across the walls, and none across the electrolyte and its contents. On Fri, Nov 10, 2006 at 07:30:55AM -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >... >Seriously - EVERYONE on this forum who is interested >in LENR (isn't that tout le monde?) MUST READ and I >do mean *must* Item # seven in this Issue. >... >> http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 18:14:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB2EJbZ001775; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:14:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB2EH33001734; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:14:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:14:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=mcnGsP/ngAG+t7BQGTuk1nSrDfEsYf6gRh4ovgqee5f2tdcPRVQQGYaYVQ88MVcbsgNLqYK5ov6ZaepZ2xY4rVHZjG+eyKecRFr7MAvz7og/vRNi0Jlbh+BXipzj57PW3Uv7ldlpa2saypB1Xvi308dW1X92R7p0gxQqZC+ON6g= ; X-YMail-OSG: f0870K8VM1nuWiye2xXnyQRkPkYnFRmjpSzS.kH.XT74eiA.C7XwjMaoykewWMoHiYjJFlQG4jyyP2GE77aOat.6XdRMpeit16X_VfykJSqMlKMLwNpUz_KstJrzzrlyGXeFQp_96ARSbOpz_blpX5Yy8FRtJrzHxHI- Message-ID: <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435@linux> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:14:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" > Those are indeed wonderful results from the, er, space war > people, > but I don't understand how an external DC electric field can > have > any effect inside the electrolytic cell. The resistance of the > container walls is so much greater than that of the electrolyte > that all of the voltage drop, i.e., the electric field, would be > across the walls, and none across the electrolyte and its > contents. Hi Mark, Yes, that does seem to be part of the amazement, and relates to Steve's comment about the difference with Claytor's et al. work. This is a fundamentally different situation than a HV discharge or Mizuno glow. Perhaps it is relates to "something" being excluded ... isn't that the most logical thing ... which "something" makes a slight difference in the dimensions of interstices, or other internal physical properties (polarity, charge, coulomb barrier, etc). Just thinking out loud, the short list of excludable (alterable) properties which a high external electric field might arguably influence - include: 1) gravity 2) aether 3) the epo flux (the QM "foam" of virtual electron/positron formation, to the extent that this is not a part of the aether 4) CMB (too weak to matter, probably) 5) ZPE in the sense of whatever it is which causes Casimir pressure. 6) the beta decay rate. As for the last, it has been theorized with some proof to back it up that deuterium does undergo beta decay with such a long half life that it is undetectable (swamped by cosmic rays etc). Did I miss anything ... err ... other than... well the thing which is most likely of all of these That being: 7) an alteration in "time" itself such that a normal QM probability distributions and determinations become highly skewed. Jones Certainly nobody on Vo is thinking "Philadelphia experiment" alleged time-alteration via HV, but most likely apocryphal: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq21-1.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 18:36:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB2aNI7023461; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:36:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB2aJ7s023415; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:36:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:36:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d0801c7053a$24004cf0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435@linux> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:35:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times > Those are indeed wonderful results from the, er, space war people, > but I don't understand how an external DC electric field can have > any effect inside the electrolytic cell. The resistance of the > container walls is so much greater than that of the electrolyte > that all of the voltage drop, i.e., the electric field, would be > across the walls, and none across the electrolyte and its contents. Mark's point is well taken. The voltage drop across the electrolyte will not be zero, however. The text is also slightly in error in referring to a 6000 volt current. Again, starements about the field strength of the magnets are way off. The magnets might produce a 12 kilogauss field under test conditions, but not with the large gap involved, and 12,200 gauss is by no means a "moderate" strength; it is quite high. These quibbles aside, what is important that immediate effects were produced by these fields, even though their mnagnitude at the active site is not correctly stated. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 19:08:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB38ATs016963; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:08:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB389oo016941; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:08:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CEzAHXdct3z6G9FwV3u5I55LJbt5MZ9gSELV1kT+6FYk5IBQEcKV/7feRpGIfLR3; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <12670866.1163214482451.JavaMail.root mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:08:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c4ea6d50bbb125eba1e58a2bed9b5fb5dec2d35696fadff2c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Resent-Message-ID: <0i27v.A.gIE.Y6TVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dennis Cravens confirmed that he did use magnets and high voltage to trigger reactions. That's what I remember, but I cannot find a paper. Anyway, he wrote to me: "You don't get many neutrons unless there is a fairly good magnetic field applied at the same time. You can get a little 'multiplication' of neutrons if you put some Be,Th or U around it. Th welding rods are ok. U works better. A 5 to 10 sigma over background is about right. The easiest is to just load up a Pd wire with D, put it in a D2 field tube and then run 5KV or so while you have a magnet on it. It is fun to put the U by the system and see the increased counts. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 19:40:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB3e8iQ009689; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:40:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB3KVD7024947; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:20:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:20:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:20:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Sat, 11 Nov 2006 03:20:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAB3KRMC024866 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#ee Status: O X-Status: Hi, According to http://newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#ee the reaction doesn't run without Pd. My take on this:- The function of Pd, Ni, Ti, etc. is to ensure the long term presence of *atomic* as opposed to molecular or ionic H/D. Only in it's atomic form is it susceptible to Mills catalysis with "standard" Mills catalysts. (However Mills also predicts that there is a second set of catalysts with an energy hole of approx. 48.6 eV, which will shrink the H2 (or D2) molecule (as opposed to the 27.2 eV energy hole for *atomic* hydrogen collapse). As I have mentioned before, IMO Li is also a Mills catalyst because it has a K shell X-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, which makes it IMO an m=2 Mills catalyst. IOW instead of absorbing energy from an X-ray, it does so from a shrinking Hydrino. If I don't miss my guess, this would even work for Li+ which is very important because that's the standard ionization state of Li in solution anyway. IOW, in a simple Li solution there are going to be vast numbers of ready made Mills catalyst ions. BTW2 - Because of the slight difference in energy between the absorption energy of Li and the actual energy hole value of 54.392 eV, the reaction should run faster as the temperature rises, because that will increase the kinetic energy of the participants, resulting in a better match. The difference in energy (54.75 eV - 54.392 eV = 0.358 eV) has to be compensated for by kinetic energy. 0.358 eV / 1.5 k = 2770 K. In short the reaction proceeds at it's maximum speed at this temperature. Of course under those circumstances, there is no electrolyte left. :) What this means in practice is that increasing the temperature to the maximum attainable (under pressure) will yield the maximum attainable reaction rate. That temperature and pressure is achieved at just below the critical point for water, i.e. 374 ºC and 218 atm. Considering the fact that we are dealing with a reaction rate where temperature appears in the coefficient[1], this could literally result in a vast increase in power output (from Watts to Megawatts or even Gigawatts). Furthermore, and as an aside, operating at high temperature has the added advantage that conversion of the energy in a heat engine becomes easier. Steam at that temperature and pressure are easily converted to electric power. One other thing. Use of Li+ as the catalyst means that when the H/D shrinks enough, it can take part in the Lithium fusion reactions:- Hy + Li6 -> He4 + He3 and Hy + Li7 -> 2 He4. possibly also followed by De + He3 -> He4 + H (in a different reactor). (De is my abbreviation of Deuterino). 1. Because only particles in the Boltzmann tail with 0.358 eV will participate. As the temperature increases, the population of particles that have sufficient energy grows exponentially. This explains the temperature dependence of CF reactions. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Trees do not "spoil the view", they ARE the view! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 22:23:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB6N8VG029005; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:23:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB6N6LF028840; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:23:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:23:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=mP8YkA78qmsdweX0qwosnV4/TsdQbxu2CxsTr0LDs0giiYipiRb9bADpGoTXKaN7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061161162426870 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:24:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8c90a2d613cb3e4e964e0e60f1e6689c272fee374a2a11089350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.233.112.1 Resent-Message-ID: <5VA6aB.A.cCH.KxWVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 10, 2006 Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Date: 11/10/2006 1:43:04 PM Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 10, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert l. Park Friday, 10 Nov 06 Washington, DC 1. PLAN B: THE ROLE OF THE WHITE HOUSE IN RESTRICTING ACCESS. You probably noticed that there was an election this week. The outcome won't make it easier for the Administration to block a federal magistrate's ruling, issued Monday, allowing the Center for Reproductive Rights to subpoena White House emails and other documents related to FDA's decision to deny over-the-counter access to the emergency contraceptive, Plan B, to women under 18, http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn082506.html. Under-18 is the demographic group for whom conception is most likely to be an emergency. The Center for Reproductive Medicine is seeking to learn whether the White House interfered with the decision-making process of the FDA. 2. NECESSARY ADJUSTMENT? SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WASN'T ON BALLOT. Donald Rumsfeld was voted out of office anyway. Having replaced "stay the course" with "necessary adjustments," President Bush replaced Rumsfeld with Robert Gates. As CIA Director, Gates was renowned for his uncanny ability to produce intelligence that supported whatever position the administration had already taken. Wasn't it that sort of "intelligence" that got us into Iraq? There is still a confirmation process to be gotten through, and that may not be easy. Wednesday, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ), one half of the PhD physicist block in Congress, described the Gates nomination as "deeply troubling." He called for a "thorough and probing confirmation hearing" for Gates. 3. SHUTTLE TO NOWHERE: A SHORTER MISSION OR A LONGER CALENDAR? Well, here we are again. Yesterday they rolled Discovery to the launching pad to prepare for a 12-day mission in December. NASA insists the hurry is to be certain it's not in space when the calendar changes to 2007; it might cause a computer glitch. Sound familiar? Same thing happened seven years ago with the dreaded Y2K problem. They wound up shortening the mission by two days to get it back before 1 Jan 00. You mean NASA can't solve a simple computer problem in seven years? Maybe there's some other problem. You get the cost-per-launch by dividing the annual shuttle budget by the number of launches, but the budget is by fiscal year. For FY07 the shuttle budget is $4.6B. 4. OBESITY EPIDEMIC: DOES IT MATTER WHERE YOU PUT THE STAPLES? Diet desperation led to the practice of stomach stapling. It's a Disgusting idea, but I have no reason to doubt its effectiveness. However, in Florida the state Board of Acupuncture banned "ear stapling," not because it's not effective, but because of "complications." Ear stapling is supposed to be a sort of long- lasting acupuncture, and I can assure readers that it's every bit as effective as traditional acupuncture. If you staple your dog's ear instead, it will have the same effect on your weight. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 23:18:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB7HkhC032184; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:17:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB7HjDM032172; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:17:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:17:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110232008.02ddfca8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:20:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435 linux> <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Did I miss anything ... err ... other than... well the thing which is most >likely of all of these >That being: >7) an alteration in "time" itself such that a normal QM probability >distributions and determinations become highly skewed. >Jones Good lord! ;) Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 10 23:30:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAB7U3qW010242; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:30:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAB7Mn8R006297; Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:22:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:22:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061110232120.02c48048 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:25:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <0d0801c7053a$24004cf0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435 linux> <0d0801c7053a$24004cf0$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings Mike, Would you be pleased to know that you are the first to find a flaw in our article? I am honored that it was found by you and I am not surprised considering your expert background. "current" now reads "potential" I'll run that B-field value by the team early next week and report back here with my findings. Remind me to include you next time on the technical proofreading! :) Steve At 06:35 PM 11/10/2006, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" >Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times > > >>Those are indeed wonderful results from the, er, space war people, >>but I don't understand how an external DC electric field can have >>any effect inside the electrolytic cell. The resistance of the >>container walls is so much greater than that of the electrolyte >>that all of the voltage drop, i.e., the electric field, would be >>across the walls, and none across the electrolyte and its contents. > >Mark's point is well taken. The voltage drop across the electrolyte will >not be zero, however. The text is also slightly in error in referring to a >6000 volt current. Again, starements about the field strength of the >magnets are way off. The magnets might produce a 12 kilogauss field under >test conditions, but not with the large gap involved, and 12,200 gauss is >by no means a "moderate" strength; it is quite high. > >These quibbles aside, what is important that immediate effects were >produced by these fields, even though their mnagnitude at the active site >is not correctly stated. > >Mike Carrell > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 08:03:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABG05NE020757; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 08:03:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABFbSEL027367; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 07:37:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 07:37:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=sN133Igr539aMSHfER3GxPGs7T47i6CATYHIYWx385UCT1+oMyTWcY0XJsByJPsoGiTJgpUckr0hWMv214kLFwzX0fKHyY0oZ/RJ04BDRIZFPzDqEo/VEULH5D4wloyCBxdh/KBbjnBacWK5RQ/4Cic0W71e1rTEAOhQmVPgMxY= ; X-YMail-OSG: ZCX3wfYVM1lF6c4aSeJLKLmjuPzhpXheQ_HxpZ7XP37hY3crgJ.V.CZhjM_fo7UyFmiErzXXtP.RzlzSz04hH5fAHSwGqXy1zgPVH0Qbo9NOnBaRC18Ewx8njKl0Xdh1D4tVP7Q9JS2m9hX.cQcVoUksiepb5O51sstTiIbV4tE0LAN8Gz29bA-- Message-ID: <001201c705a7$45bb5250$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435@linux> <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0@NuDell> <6.2.0.14.2.20061110232008.02ddfca8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 07:37:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" >>Did I miss anything ... err ... other than... well the thing >>which is most likely of all of these >>That being: >>7) an alteration in "time" itself such that a normal QM >>probability distributions and determinations become highly >>skewed. >>Jones > > > Good lord! Actually there is mainstream science that supports this conclusion. Cites to follow. Of course, I was being a bit overly dramatic, but yes, "time alteration" (in the sense of changing an applicable time constant with HV) is probably in tune with mainstream science as much as anything else in the experiment itself ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 11:11:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABJBkTg006192; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:11:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABJBgvr006148; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:11:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:11:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=5AneapSwFBMFojpFAmg44sV22KE6gOBiJEAggmV0Ppt5Pw+eIzLkICNSQ8HP0BlzNk3YIJHfgjm2YnLv7QR6kBaS63WCT6Y9loIW8l428Tdsdd1DSV41vWSzyQDL45VYvYfkJVv6zKcw3xNYo2RxPnZlFllf9oOhkm5zTSMqB3o= ; X-YMail-OSG: .bloaj8VM1ntBQGblM6yUQtEZ13qmpXrPzH.mcrvlR_StLpmPyQqjaqBUUDRltY7.OI4aRRjrZtWAgDYRF4qHvUTo_YKh0CbwJOdUd.Tzk3gzCrRcBzrKQ-- Message-ID: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:11:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: What is the ARG? For the benefit of future "Argonauts" among the readership here ...the ARG, or alternate reality game, is analogous to the genre of "hard SciFi" in that it attempts to overlap the game-world with the real-world - by utilizing real world facts and media (not confined to game machine animation). It is a growing trend in its infancy. The ARG can and should use true science as a major part of the game setup, but often this science is fictionally advanced "ahead of its time" (in a logical direction) - in order to deliver a novel and interactive narrative but totally life-like experience to the participants- a kind of surrealism that is still within the natural ability we have to "suspend disbelief". Unfortunately, most ARGs are today generally underfunded PR gimmicks, and not yet up to the task - but someday - "real soon now" it will be much harder to tell when any "Press" announcement is part of an elaborate ARG, or fact-based. Even the professional journals, the IOP and SciAm and other fact-based media are guilty of some of the worst of bad-science journalism - poorer than anything seen in a good ARG- so the convergence of objective truth with alternative-reality is coming from both directions... as well it should. The aphorism that "truth is stranger than fiction" is one of most certain things which you will read in this piece. There had been a discussion recently on Frank Grimer's forum concerning the possibility that the Steorn announcement of magnetic OU was just such an elaborate ARG - taken beyond normal limits of acceptable journalism. Normally one would not try to fool the mainstream press this way without more of a clue, especially since that announcement cost well into six figures and did not happen on Apr 1. However, the ARG possibility now seems to be most unlikely in the case of Steorn, but there is always the chance for this kind of quasi-innocuous deceit in the near future - and especially with so much wealth in the hands of the video game industry. There are teen-age millionaire game developers in my neighborhood. And, in case you haven't realized the extent of the money-angle to the successful ARG, the video game industry is now five times larger than all of Hollywood and the entire world movie industry ! Over $30 billion annual revenue and growing at 20% per. Consequently, by analogy and given inordinate wealth in immature hands, which is obviously in the case of juvenile mentality types in Hollywood, like Tom Cruise, Madonna, Mel Gibson, etc.... well this underscores the point - anything is possible in the future of video gaming when it expands into ARGs and then into the (arguably) real world. Richard Branson is a personality-type who is emblematic of having this ability to have one foot firmly in real wealth, gained from entertainment, and the other so deep into ... well ... "idealism" is one way to say it, that the lines of "what is real" are poised to become increasingly blurred in the near future. And look at the Guv of our fair state (Kalifornia) who even this cynic voted for - wow - is there any better example anywhere of the improbably merger of SciFi and the real world? That "nearness" factor of the above mentioned future merger of near-fact with near-fiction being around the year 2010 - when the "son of x-Box" can present a visual "Wag the Dog" type of sound byte - to undiscerning media types, like Fox News (Faux) for an evening broadcast on a slow-news day, and for the investment of only a few dozen man-hours (OK teen-hacker-hours) - which footage looks 'way too real' to be faux. ARGs - like life itself - are typified by totally involving the players with the realism of the underlying story and its characters, by encouraging them to explore the hidden details, solve plot based challenges without resorting to "body-count", and interact with game characters, as if they were "human." Total immersion, so to speak... as in "Stockholm syndrome" one wonders? Isn't a merger of near-fact with near-fiction inevitable? No doubt that at some point in time, pornography will be deeply embedded in the ARG - and then marketing success is all but guaranteed - but that awaits the type of hardware seen in the fabulous movie: "Brainstorm" (1983), or "Strange Days" (1995) and a technology called SQUID. The wearer of a yarmulke-style headset will be capable of completely re-living every detail of experiences recorded by others. ARGs now can be delivered only mostly via internet websites, email, telephones, text messaging and or other less vivid means of mass communication. ARGs are growing in popularity, with new games appearing regularly - a trend which will reach a tipping point in a few years with RTSC. Nowadays, they tend to be free, with costs absorbed through subliminal Ads or directly supporting a particular "trendy" product which is featured (even mundane collectables, like puzzle cards in the case of Perplex City). I mention all of this above, both because it is a new and growing possible mega-trend that everyone on Vo should be aware of - as it now well-known today - but also as an introduction to another similar and free non-quite-game pastime which is more closely grounded to reality - but still has embedded in it most of the attractive nuances of "conspiracy theory" and other alternative reality aspects of hard SciFi. This pursuit does not have a name yet, but feel free to invent one. How about MAAN (or Much Ado About Nothing) ...? At least the copyright has probably run out on that one, Seinfeld notwithstanding OK, gentlemen start your engines. Here is a real and current science story which can be the setup of ver .001 of MAAN : http://www.physorg.com/news82217403.html The most powerful tunable laser in the world just shattered another power record: the Free-Electron Laser (FEL), supported by the Office of Naval Research and located at the U.S. Department of Energy's Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility (Jefferson Lab), produced a 14.2 kilowatt (kW) beam of laser light at an infrared wavelength of 1.61 microns a couple of weeks ago, on October 30. "This wavelength is of interest to the Navy for transmission of light through the maritime atmosphere and for material science applications," said Fred Dylla, Jefferson Lab's Chief Technology Officer and Associate Director of the Free-Electron Laser Division. The FEL is supported by the Office of Naval Research, the Naval Sea Systems Command, the Air Force Research Laboratory, and the Joint Technology Office ... and ... ... SPAWAR? ...well no, it is not yet mentioned in this piece, but you can imagine where that would take it. (unless SPAWAR is related to some future war on relaxation Anyway... The laser's new capabilities will enhance a wide range of applications, such as shipboard antimissile defense and other defense applications as well as manufacturing technologies and the support of scientific studies in chemistry, physics, biology and medicine. This is another record for the powerful laser, which was also the first to achieve 10 kW in the infrared at 6 microns in July 2004. "In this case, the smaller the wavelength in the infrared, the more difficult it was to reach at these tremendously high powers," Dylla said. "Reaching 14 kilowatts at 1.61 microns is a truly remarkable achievement, and we couldn't have done it without the hard work and dedication of the FEL staff and our colleagues at Jefferson Lab. The team created groundbreaking designs that resolved technical challenges never before seen, since these power levels are unprecedented." So let the games begin. Let me start with the suggestion that this could make the entire national $500 billion investment in nuclear submarines obsolete! Did they ever stop to realize in the planning stages that FELs are being shrunk down to desktop size, and that a 10 kW Laser will easily punch a pinhole through 50 cm of titanium ?? Subs with pinholes in their skin don't function very well in deep water ... so where does that put half of our national deterrent to surprise nuclear attack ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 11:53:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABJqvQq012284; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:52:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABJqtcS012255; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4Q8Ym4c+MA7ExK1XzH6hxUiSG61M1mzpYPMnL9LtM+wHdAMS7ApbEC4WMnzmMKGAl3eeH086NPgzfp/7JcnBxsi/ZWq2fbx2vBjVk3R/A/fxOxXi0FHONwxUWL/ePAAmm9f9s5QYz765ocPvu8pkEZYUA0rDGKCQGp/mE4Mk3ec= ; Message-ID: <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > > Consequently, by analogy and given inordinate wealth > in immature hands, which is obviously in the case of > juvenile mentality types in Hollywood, like Tom > Cruise, Madonna, Mel Gibson... Mel Gibson? A 50 year-old husband and father; a savvy actor and producer, deeply committed to his religion. He has a juvenile mentality? I know that Jews have been smearing him ever since he had the gall to make a movie about the founder of his religion, but I'm sorry to see you joining in. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 11:56:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABJuQ1P015839; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:56:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABJuOBq015820; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:56:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:56:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ipU8euXClgtNj8DURFq1zI75DVK57XeB9groOSVnO0azwdq0Sh7rRpuEClP7I8xVz70/bjReEFcjU88fPrRfA2PPxdG7v77wwGX5ANNM/j2kYhAlEULr+blIkokmBKcWVOq3WOLKFJF5vivCcxFFetsWsIQdV9InIajIqttM81s= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:56:23 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/11/06, Jones Beene wrote: > What is the ARG? Book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash Web: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life Reality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States) :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 13:05:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABL09Bi010540; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:05:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABKOfpa008855; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:24:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:24:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bgkft8lzQE0aHmnaGtO6C02UR+FVqnITTT/M/rzyLxRVhYmD8Wu5rzzCvOcwBETRnmtshd05exgJ7o2TqXlETz6TGKeZBuPg/37mxf7lOgtmFpXQNknK93bXafumZjsgiyi4KdcqYzTaG/1zSWObm20Ajn9mmsYQ9WfTVSFPq3g= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:23:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/11/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > Mel Gibson? A 50 year-old husband and father; a savvy > actor and producer, deeply committed to his religion. > He has a juvenile mentality? > > I know that Jews have been smearing him ever since he > had the gall to make a movie about the founder of his > religion, but I'm sorry to see you joining in. He's a crazed hypocrite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident Southpark got it right: http://tinyurl.com/y7zaue Terry WWFSMD? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 12:52:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABKpkCv000682; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:51:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABKpiGT000658; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:51:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:51:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=zc/UrE37s4QCSfX6W55zMbU2JnBN9/HiqRm0jf/KLrCkDB4vbtl4ARE8U9m30NMJuhiSOuo8wq+FwTNLKy0+VBE+jtAVcnBC3YyXQKnftavOYScAUFWFJMNZOdvG1yI5LxlAEJ8vQxQBJhL8tjdkwZ6tTGurn5ktZTaTimiUjaE= ; X-YMail-OSG: oMz9UkMVM1mwQWjens4AkMP5vHNqrjwwHKkr98mQoXLWFHW0n.AJdME.oJ3YSpRein_fO_m5uPAR5Fbsi5Zsn1s7Jm3GUfDUJnbIZCTa98rUAmdA29Y.cQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061111154659.00ba7d58 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:47:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: "I know that Jews have been smearing him ever since he had the gall to make a movie about the founder of his religion, but I'm sorry to see you joining in." What you say here says more about you than about "Jews". I'm sorry to see you joining in. P. At 11:46 AM 11/11/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--- Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > Consequently, by analogy and given inordinate wealth > > in immature hands, which is obviously in the case of > > juvenile mentality types in Hollywood, like Tom > > Cruise, Madonna, Mel Gibson... > >Mel Gibson? A 50 year-old husband and father; a savvy >actor and producer, deeply committed to his religion. >He has a juvenile mentality? > >I know that Jews have been smearing him ever since he >had the gall to make a movie about the founder of his >religion, but I'm sorry to see you joining in. > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Cheap talk? >Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. >http://voice.yahoo.com From phys-l-bounces carnot.physics.buffalo.edu Sat Nov 11 12:54:01 2006 Received: from carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (carnot.physics.buffalo.edu [128.205.17.137]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABKruZW003050 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:54:01 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CF42C6AE; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from carnot.physics.buffalo.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (carnot.physics.buffalo.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01195-01-3; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3782C656; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:52:59 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: phys-l carnot.physics.buffalo.edu Delivered-To: phys-l carnot.physics.buffalo.edu Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2E42C64C for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from carnot.physics.buffalo.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (carnot.physics.buffalo.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00569-04 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from theory.hep.anl.gov (theory.hep.anl.gov [146.139.180.65]) by carnot.physics.buffalo.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B7D2C176 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from theory.hep.anl.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by theory.hep.anl.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id kABKqeXZ005829 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:52:40 -0600 Received: from localhost (jlu localhost) by theory.hep.anl.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id kABKqe73005826 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:52:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: theory.hep.anl.gov: jlu owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:52:40 -0600 (CST) From: Jack Uretsky To: Forum for Physics Educators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at physics.buffalo.edu Subject: Re: [Phys-l] Basic statistics X-BeenThere: phys-l carnot.physics.buffalo.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.7 Precedence: list Reply-To: Forum for Physics Educators List-Id: Forum for Physics Educators List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: phys-l-bounces carnot.physics.buffalo.edu Errors-To: phys-l-bounces carnot.physics.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at physics.buffalo.edu X-Suspected-Spam: my lists Status: RO X-Status: When I said "carefully stated" I was trying to exclude puns. Tim makes a pun on the phrase "applies to." While his statement is correct, it doesn't contradict mine, namely, the chi-square distribution does not become normal in the large N limit. The Poisson distribution, by the way, does. The texts tell us, as I understand them, that the means of vary large samples taken from tinite variance distributions are normally distributed about a central value. I do not know whether there is a proof that relaxes the limiting conditions. Note, by the way, that the central limit theorem, as quoted, makes not statement about the distribution of variances. Regards, Jack On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Folkerts, Timothy J wrote: > Jack replied to one of my comments > >>> In my mind, "standard deviation of the mean" is a perfectly fine, unmixed term. > >> But you seem not to agree. See below:... >> ok, so who, among "NIST, CDC, professional statisticians, etc." uses it? > > I'm not saying that it is the best terminology, nor even that it is common terminology. I was merely trying to point out that it is perfectly possible and reasonable to calculate "the standard deviation of ______________" where "___________" could be anything - "heights of students in a class", or "measurements of 'g'", or "the results of rolling one die" or " the mean value when rolling 10 dice". In other words, if you have a set of values that happen to be the means of some sets of data, you can calculate the standard deviation of the means. > >> From my own experience, "standard error" is indeed used more commonly when talking about the standard deviation when applied to a value (like the mean) calculated from a sample. > > >> As already pointed out, the central limit theorem does not apply to all >> distributions. You must state the theorem carefully. In the case of the >> chi-square distribution it is easy to demonstrate by example with MathCad >> or a similar program that the large N limit is not Gaussian. > > But the Central Limit Theorem DOES apply to the chi-square distribution. Certainly the large X limit of the chi-square distribution with X degrees of freedom does not approach the normal distribution. However, the large Y limit of the sum of Y random variables drawn from a chi-square distribution with X degrees of freedom does aproach a normal distribution. And that is how the CLT would be applied here. > > > > Also, Ludwik said: >> Would it be OK to say that the CLT applies to any distribution of x >> that is confined to a region between x1 and x2? By this I mean that the >> probability density function is zero a all t xx2. That >> would cover nearly any practical distribution I can think off. > > That should be correct. If the distribution HAS a mean and standard deviation, then the CLT applies (as I understand it). I think it is obvious that any bounded distribution must have a finite mean and standrad deviation. > > > Tim F > -- "Trust me. I have a lot of experience at this." General Custer's unremembered message to his men, just before leading them into the Little Big Horn Valley _______________________________________________ Forum for Physics Educators Phys-l carnot.physics.buffalo.edu https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/mailman/listinfo/phys-l From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 11 13:27:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kABLRXmQ001206; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:27:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kABLRUou001163; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:27:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:27:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PONTMAubqUe/2JLszBxswqDiKz5DsnkA4+47OFd8ohlxQiAohAzAxg7w0TacJt1seCTGrC/yvUN00krdrJZUJ4rzg1FHX0buw5yq4qn72bS1jJpdGhMEfbmsXOBb0+desAkn9Kx3vS++lB0q3ohW/H4tl9Wqga8LVvpLd6ulLWk= ; Message-ID: <20061111212727.39200.qmail web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:27:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061111194611.22137.qmail web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? Status: O X-Status: --- Rhong Dhong wrote: > Mel Gibson? A 50 year-old husband and father; a > savvy actor and producer, deeply committed to his > religion. He has a juvenile mentality? > I know that Jews have been smearing him ever since > he had the gall to make a movie about the founder of > his religion, but I'm sorry to see you joining in. I'm sorry to see anyone repeating this lame defense. Age does not always come with maturity, and "juvenile mentality" is at least somewhat more flattering than "racist". Mel Gibson’s anti-Semitic rant caused uproar not simply because he’s supposed to be a "mature" celebrity, was no longer an alcoholic, and so on - but largely because of this very lame defense that he fell back on, which you repeat: that criticism for 'The Passion Of The Christ' was the real problem. Huh? That is simply not a viable defense in light of how he gained his wealth and popularity. In all his hero-themed movies, mostly financed by the movie industry - even Mad Max, the Patriot, Braveheart, and so on - he is playing the hero of a group who were wronged by a dominating majority. There are surely lots of Brits who didn't like the inferences made by William Wallace towards their oppression of Scotland (nor having to bung-view an upturned kilt) but Mel didn't rant on the many Brits who criticized that movie. That says volumes about this silly defense of having been "smeared". Where is this so-called smear, other than in a racist (juvenile) mentality? This is like Wynona Ryder saying she shoplifted because the owners of Saks didn't like her films. It doesn't work that way. She did it because it was her cheap thrill and Mel did it because he apparently retains some vestige of being "trained" as a closet-racist - he was apparently raised that way. Yes, in both cases, no matter what the age is - this lapse is indicative of a lack of maturity. Ever since his own father made remarks that the Holocaust was “mostly fiction”, and echoes from his misbegotten youth started appearing in the press, there had been speculation that there was a deeper problem with anti-Semites in Gibson, which he had not been able to overcome, even at his age and social status. His father also believed that Jews were trying to take over the world in some kind of nebulous conspiracy, and some of this paternal garbage has got to rub off on any kid - but it is no excuse at age 50 to have not "gotten over it". By the time you are fifty and owe most of your considerable wealth and success to the very Jewish-named businessmen who control some of the movie industry (few are practicing any religion other than self-indulgence) you could at least have the courtesy to rant on something that has been UNFAIR to you and not repeat lies told to you in your youth by a misguided parent. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 05:29:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACDTMnV016868; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 05:29:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACDTIhi016826; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 05:29:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 05:29:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=n5gqha3A53ztmw2J9iRxYTnTPVRp0qDe9wHN5uv6ZU5sG7WjdZuW8LhM6meZrT6/6sIYWziFD3f/OQsrPJvdXw2UbwZVKb+vdzSsouZUJSmiGB/KnKpUr/2e1erkVQdcCriesKHGKdAknmZO2xKLsH35KXiz6yiaHBPFGl+/5EE= ; Message-ID: <20061112132915.19638.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 05:29:15 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061111212727.39200.qmail web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: [**Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic rant caused uproar...because of this very lame defense... that criticism for 'The Passion Of The Christ' was the real problem. In all his hero-themed movies...even Mad Max, the Patriot, Braveheart, and so on - he is playing the hero of a group who were wronged by a dominating majority. There are surely lots of Brits who didn't like the inferences... **] [**but Mel didn't rant on the many Brits who criticized that movie. That says volumes about this silly defense of having been "smeared". Where is this so-called smear, other than in a racist (juvenile) mentality?**] There was an unrelenting campaign, lasting for months, by the ADL and other Jewish organizations to paint the movie, and, therefore, Gibson, as anti-semitic. You can go to any search engine and find references. Naturally, the smear included mention of his father's dislike of Jews. Yet you pretend that the criticisms by Brits of Braveheart, if they really exist, are comparable to the shit that Jews threw at Gibson for months, simply because he had the gall to make a movie about the founder of his religion. His rant against Jews is quite understandable given their smears against him. [**...some of this paternal garbage has got to rub off on any kid - but it is no excuse at age 50 to have not "gotten over it".**] No doubt you have never met Gibson and can only guess about the kind of man he is and about how he was formed. Certainly, nobody completely 'gets over' the experiences of childhood, good or bad, but not getting over it isn't 'juvenile' and it is ludicrous to say that it is. You decided to casually smear Gibson by referring to him as juvenile, and now try to justify it by further smearing him as a child of his father, somewhat like the situation in Stalinist Russia, where the children of an 'enemy of the people' were treated like second-class citizens, if they themselves didn't end up in the gulag. [**and owe most of your considerable wealth and success to the very Jewish-named businessmen who control some of the movie industry...**] It's obvious that Gibson owes his wealth and success to his own abilities. By the way, what is it with 'Jewish-named' and 'control some'? What a strange view of reality you seem to have. Why not just say that Jews control the movie industry? Even Jews say it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 06:29:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACETN5S006983; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 06:29:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACETLk9006934; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 06:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 06:29:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:29:22 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [82.69.24.243] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:29 am 12/11/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--- Jones Beene wrote: > >[**Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic rant caused >uproar...because of this very lame defense... that >criticism for 'The Passion Of The Christ' was the real >problem. > >In all his hero-themed movies...even Mad Max, the >Patriot, Braveheart, and so on - he is playing the >hero of a group who were wronged by a dominating >majority. There are surely lots of Brits who didn't >like the inferences... **] > >[**but Mel didn't rant on the many Brits who >criticized that movie. > >That says volumes about this silly defense of having >been "smeared". Where is this so-called smear, other >than in a racist (juvenile) mentality?**] > >There was an unrelenting campaign, lasting for months, >by the ADL and other Jewish organizations to paint the >movie, and, therefore, Gibson, as anti-semitic. You >can go to any search engine and find references. >Naturally, the smear included mention of his father's >dislike of Jews. > >Yet you pretend that the criticisms by Brits of >Braveheart, if they really exist, are comparable to >the shit that Jews threw at Gibson for months, simply >because he had the gall to make a movie about the >founder of his religion. > >His rant against Jews is quite understandable given >their smears against him. > > > >[**...some of this paternal garbage has got >to rub off on any kid - but it is no excuse at age 50 >to have not "gotten over it".**] > >No doubt you have never met Gibson and can only guess >about the kind of man he is and about how he was >formed. Certainly, nobody completely 'gets over' the >experiences of childhood, good or bad, but not getting >over it isn't 'juvenile' and it is ludicrous to say >that it is. > >You decided to casually smear Gibson by referring to >him as juvenile, and now try to justify it by further >smearing him as a child of his father, somewhat like >the situation in Stalinist Russia, where the children >of an 'enemy of the people' were treated like >second-class citizens, if they themselves didn't end >up in the gulag. > > >[**and owe most of your considerable wealth and >success to the very Jewish-named businessmen who >control some of the movie industry...**] > >It's obvious that Gibson owes his wealth and success >to his own abilities. > >By the way, what is it with 'Jewish-named' and >'control some'? What a strange view of reality you >seem to have. Why not just say that Jews control the >movie industry? Even Jews say it. You are right about the Brits not being upset by Mel Gibson's film. That idea is frankly risible. Though a lot of the rest of your argument is correct I'm afraid Mel Gibson asked for trouble when he drove a car drunk (grievously sinful - and mortally sinful if done with full knowledge. If he died in that state he would have merited the fires of hell for all eternity). If he had killed someone he would have merited a long prison sentence. I speak as a catholic just as traditional as Mel Gibson. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 07:19:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACFJJeU020042; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:19:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACFJI3E020022; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:19:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=whVFbxoXpTozp1FYWVfiWovQ86vYYQcl6RVoZS9z4cOYKbvJVWFyT2ZIsGo5c+4GiXLJqO0/FuWo6XhU35VEmmsBxqD9B4KRMiv8yYpxZDH0ygjNMqa56pv5UVHjCdy5a2YpDjDPmhutz8TX01FdV0i7xKDpwRqlfH9eTQtjOuA= ; Message-ID: <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:19:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <5VZsOD.A.u4E.2tzVFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops... sorry to have been a participant in opening this can-of-worms, even if it is labeled as Off-Topic. Enough already. Lest it gets lost in the shuffle of justifying the rant of a relapsing alcoholic with a large fan-base - there WAS a real point to all of this! ... yes, the original point that led to this unfortunate digression is that the entertainment industry, especially the video game industry... AND THIS IS AN IMPORTANT SOCIETAL CHANGE ...for really the first time in the history - has put inordinate amounts of *discretionary* wealth under the control of a less-mature and less-responsible segments of society. Sure, there have been child kings and pharaohs in the past, but then as always, the real control of state was in the cadre of military generals, religious priests, and ministers, and the child king could do little permanent damage to those outside an immediate purview. IOW the available wealth was comparatively small and not very discretionary. How wealthy is any child-pharaoh who cannot watch TV, enoy a Big Mac or get minimal dental work? (turns out many of them suffered and died from dental abscesses). These days, a population of wealthy computer geeks and movie and recording stars -teenagers and up, but with tens of millions of discretionary wealth at their disposal, presents another human dynamic, especially in the information age - where *reality* and *virtual reality* are converging rapidly - to the extent that real confusion is certain, and rather soon. >From that point on - the repercussions of unaccountable wealth digress into a myriad of possibilities, among which are very elaborate ARGs in the future. This is likely since some of that discretionary wealth is in the hands of the very segment of techies who will know how to manipulate reality - to the extent that an artificial reality story, of the "Wag the Dog" variety - when fostered into mainstream media, can have negative intended and unintended conswquences. Yes....believe it or not, this post started out as pertaining to the ARG trend of phenomenon ... and what that societal change might mean to our future. ... if H.G. Wells was able to frighten the socks off of quite a few farmers in New Jersey with "War of the Worlds" broadcast on Radio in 1938 ... imagine. well one thing for sure... the times they are a changin' Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 08:31:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACGUdeQ025841; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:30:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACGUcj4025818; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:30:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:30:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45574C1C.3080000 usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:30:20 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <052701c705c5$367f7f50$6401a8c0 NuDell> <20061111194611.22137.qmail@web35009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/11/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > >> Mel Gibson? A 50 year-old husband and father; a savvy >> > He's a crazed hypocrite: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident Mel is blinded by his hatred of the Jews. His delusion is an example of the curse spoken of in Genesis 12. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 07:07:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACF6YDV009695; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:06:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACF6WdI009652; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:06:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:06:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=GtnsyTMCau9tMkDwXOYw6QBP9Gyw09cMcIWjxn4s2quWriyYcJum+E1OjerSW1KirZXvC1GZYxw76F3el5YThY9fWN90mAai6QQ1kIPgHw4XkA/8/HfO/cUkZWi4VbKKL0J7uarPQn9yFDwmz0tFYF7CizF4qfxHJWtezRffVPk= ; Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112095020.00ba7d48 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:02:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <20061112132915.19638.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061111212727.39200.qmail web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061112132915.19638.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: "The Jews" got upset at Gibson's portrayal of them in the film, because it perpetuates what is at best a myth and at worst a slander that's been going on for 2000 years. Do yourself a favour and read James Carroll's "Constantine's Sword" a book that shows just how much "the Jews" owe to Constantine and the Nicean Creed that was born under his jurisdiction. The Catholic Church is now beginning to openly display some sort of appreciation of Chrisianity's Jewish roots. But at the time, Constantine and his folks were in the business of turning Judaism - the religion of Jesus (or Yehoshua) - upside down; whatever "the Jews" did, the early church did the opposite. In other words, they made a decision to promote early Christianity based on a hatred of "the other" - "the Jews"). It's gotten to the point now, or should I say, again, that every criticism of these slanders against "the Jews" is portrayed by people like you - and you can fill in the blanks here - as "smears." But of course "smearing" "the Jews" is ok, because, well... they deserve it, right? Gotta go now; just going into my underground bunker to take stock of the millions of gold bars we've accumulated, and to find out how many Christian babies we need in order to bake our next year's batch of matzoh... the same matzoh that Jesus used to eat... P. At 05:29 AM 11/12/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--- Jones Beene wrote: > >[**Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic rant caused >uproar...because of this very lame defense... that >criticism for 'The Passion Of The Christ' was the real >problem. > >In all his hero-themed movies...even Mad Max, the >Patriot, Braveheart, and so on - he is playing the >hero of a group who were wronged by a dominating >majority. There are surely lots of Brits who didn't >like the inferences... **] > >[**but Mel didn't rant on the many Brits who >criticized that movie. > >That says volumes about this silly defense of having >been "smeared". Where is this so-called smear, other >than in a racist (juvenile) mentality?**] > >There was an unrelenting campaign, lasting for months, >by the ADL and other Jewish organizations to paint the >movie, and, therefore, Gibson, as anti-semitic. You >can go to any search engine and find references. >Naturally, the smear included mention of his father's >dislike of Jews. > >Yet you pretend that the criticisms by Brits of >Braveheart, if they really exist, are comparable to >the shit that Jews threw at Gibson for months, simply >because he had the gall to make a movie about the >founder of his religion. > >His rant against Jews is quite understandable given >their smears against him. > > > >[**...some of this paternal garbage has got >to rub off on any kid - but it is no excuse at age 50 >to have not "gotten over it".**] > >No doubt you have never met Gibson and can only guess >about the kind of man he is and about how he was >formed. Certainly, nobody completely 'gets over' the >experiences of childhood, good or bad, but not getting >over it isn't 'juvenile' and it is ludicrous to say >that it is. > >You decided to casually smear Gibson by referring to >him as juvenile, and now try to justify it by further >smearing him as a child of his father, somewhat like >the situation in Stalinist Russia, where the children >of an 'enemy of the people' were treated like >second-class citizens, if they themselves didn't end >up in the gulag. > > >[**and owe most of your considerable wealth and >success to the very Jewish-named businessmen who >control some of the movie industry...**] > >It's obvious that Gibson owes his wealth and success >to his own abilities. > >By the way, what is it with 'Jewish-named' and >'control some'? What a strange view of reality you >seem to have. Why not just say that Jews control the >movie industry? Even Jews say it. > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. >http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 07:21:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACFKodm023531; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:20:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACFKlZE023481; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:20:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:20:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=MZ1ahRC4SVeoVcQKIJr7pNF/5znydZlzEcsG1QupjWdAW3lJvOcK0NYny58usWCWC2Y8PmvrF5TUCTcNrgtmBs4TrgVBJZwfE69xbyo+fX5a2wfuYJXxhtM6gUPsZCX9RkQT/TY2bhRJ2tkDaEiIxEpPaKpY0+m9kp8E2hXIv9k= ; X-YMail-OSG: wxpOMcIVM1nTV32f97bfxZ0hbIl6EdbCm2Hw4ZgOqOJuohAmsJ11vAWl2kjQZYgzj7c84cLU_3VYmDBRpMxvB8WrCSw2RLESapzzHzYn_Xi0GTMIBOSrBg-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112101412.00ba7b78 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:16:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <20061112132915.19638.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061111212727.39200.qmail web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061112132915.19638.qmail web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Oh - and if you want to read an interesting take on the dichotomy between "talent" and "disgusting human beings," I suggest you read Orwell's "Benefit of Clergy." It may enlighten you. [Aside: Sometimes I wonder how God manages to survive without people like Mel and his trusty followers flying His flag.] P. At 05:29 AM 11/12/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--- Jones Beene wrote: > >[**Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic rant caused >uproar...because of this very lame defense... that >criticism for 'The Passion Of The Christ' was the real >problem. > >In all his hero-themed movies...even Mad Max, the >Patriot, Braveheart, and so on - he is playing the >hero of a group who were wronged by a dominating >majority. There are surely lots of Brits who didn't >like the inferences... **] > >[**but Mel didn't rant on the many Brits who >criticized that movie. > >That says volumes about this silly defense of having >been "smeared". Where is this so-called smear, other >than in a racist (juvenile) mentality?**] > >There was an unrelenting campaign, lasting for months, >by the ADL and other Jewish organizations to paint the >movie, and, therefore, Gibson, as anti-semitic. You >can go to any search engine and find references. >Naturally, the smear included mention of his father's >dislike of Jews. > >Yet you pretend that the criticisms by Brits of >Braveheart, if they really exist, are comparable to >the shit that Jews threw at Gibson for months, simply >because he had the gall to make a movie about the >founder of his religion. > >His rant against Jews is quite understandable given >their smears against him. > > > >[**...some of this paternal garbage has got >to rub off on any kid - but it is no excuse at age 50 >to have not "gotten over it".**] > >No doubt you have never met Gibson and can only guess >about the kind of man he is and about how he was >formed. Certainly, nobody completely 'gets over' the >experiences of childhood, good or bad, but not getting >over it isn't 'juvenile' and it is ludicrous to say >that it is. > >You decided to casually smear Gibson by referring to >him as juvenile, and now try to justify it by further >smearing him as a child of his father, somewhat like >the situation in Stalinist Russia, where the children >of an 'enemy of the people' were treated like >second-class citizens, if they themselves didn't end >up in the gulag. > > >[**and owe most of your considerable wealth and >success to the very Jewish-named businessmen who >control some of the movie industry...**] > >It's obvious that Gibson owes his wealth and success >to his own abilities. > >By the way, what is it with 'Jewish-named' and >'control some'? What a strange view of reality you >seem to have. Why not just say that Jews control the >movie industry? Even Jews say it. > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. >http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 07:39:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACFcdM0004982; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:38:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACFcZFx004938; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:38:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 07:38:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=4yYjfJNmHO/a3Qgg1QutELp4gOZAjiPodrxV7aAGUXEcdiVeaakAbNWE/vNhb0yfmUcVN2lvZgFyGq4/FvcqmOgJLdJXYCqmRVPtU82gFj+obbKgsnIJxrZbjDS8C0kMY9nJDYKLY5CplO1qHYL8AWZOTDJoJcrlsPh7qlDw33A= ; X-YMail-OSG: JBxAJE4VM1nGKtnY_6ZzNBoVTtcdQBMXf1iFSI22Jqr3XMTSBF15kAxVwEY5P0nFu_flKKRx_R1chzc_C9xTPh0DqhLRiZWJ1AqODaGt25Gkw9thguBjRQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:34:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: You're quite right Jones... for what it's worth, I genuinely appreciate both your attitude and your approach. This "conversation" doesn't belong here, so it should stop immediately. Your points about unaccountable (unearned?) wealth are well taken. I've been studying a little, the art of Japanese block printing, and one current practitioner - a Westerner, in fact - explains that he simply sells his work - piece by piece, day by day - for relatively small amounts of money. In this way, he makes a living in a very simple way, and survives, day by day, piece by piece. Contrast that by the quest by most artists these days, to get famous and make lots of money quickly by selling each piece as a "big (important) one." I don't know if I explained that properly, but the idea is to work (at anything) day by day, piece by piece, so that in the end we'll have fulfilled our lives in a natural way... The natural process of life. Otherwise life is just a giant, very foolish, lottery. P. At 07:19 AM 11/12/2006 -0800, you wrote: >Oops... sorry to have been a participant in opening this can-of-worms, >even if it is labeled as Off-Topic. Enough already. > >Lest it gets lost in the shuffle of justifying the rant of a relapsing >alcoholic with a large fan-base - there WAS a real point to all of this! >... yes, the original point that led to this unfortunate digression is >that the entertainment industry, especially the video game industry... > >AND THIS IS AN IMPORTANT SOCIETAL CHANGE > >...for really the first time in the history - has put inordinate amounts >of *discretionary* wealth under the control of a less-mature and >less-responsible segments of society. > >Sure, there have been child kings and pharaohs in the past, but then as >always, the real control of state was in the cadre of military generals, >religious priests, and ministers, and the child king could do little >permanent damage to those outside an immediate purview. IOW the available >wealth was comparatively small and not very discretionary. How wealthy is >any child-pharaoh who cannot watch TV, enoy a Big Mac or get minimal >dental work? (turns out many of them suffered and died from dental abscesses). > >These days, a population of wealthy computer geeks and movie and recording >stars -teenagers and up, but with tens of millions of discretionary wealth >at their disposal, presents another human dynamic, especially in the >information age - where *reality* and *virtual reality* are converging >rapidly - to the extent that real confusion is certain, and rather soon. > > From that point on - the repercussions of unaccountable wealth digress > into a myriad of possibilities, among which are very elaborate ARGs in > the future. This is likely since some of that discretionary wealth is in > the hands of the very segment of techies who will know how to manipulate > reality - to the extent that an artificial reality story, of the "Wag the > Dog" variety - when fostered into mainstream media, can have negative > intended and unintended conswquences. > >Yes....believe it or not, this post started out as pertaining to the ARG >trend of phenomenon ... and what that societal change might mean to our future. > >... if H.G. Wells was able to frighten the socks off of quite a few >farmers in New Jersey with "War of the Worlds" broadcast on Radio in 1938 >... imagine. > >well one thing for sure... the times they are a changin' > >Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 13:20:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACLKQvS011833; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:20:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLKN6Q011807; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:20:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:20:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c7069c$24288a90$32027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:50:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C70669.D8F228B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <2Wf_3D.A.R4C.XA5VFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Give Mel a Break? Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C70669.D8F228B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C70669.D8F535F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C70669.D8F535F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Nuff said about culturals and races. Back in the US Navy WW2., a kid I knew from down around Corpus Christi = Texas told of the fights he could start at the dance hall. Seems the = small nearby farming communities were sorta "clannish". Orange Grove was = all Dutch, San Patricio was Irish-Mex mix, Alice was German, Robstown = was Czech, Kingsville some part Jewish settlement... and so on . The = dance hall was midway between the towns.=20 To get a fight started, my smartaleck kid friend would stand outside and = shout to one of the guys inside saying... "did you hear what that Bohunk = called you".. the fight would start in earnest.. all it takes is to play = the card.. ethnic, culture and race.. Fun stuff.eh? Back to talking about science ideas.. the highest form = of gossip!!! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C70669.D8F535F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,

Nuff said about culturals and races.

Back in the US Navy WW2., a kid I knew from down around Corpus = Christi Texas=20 told of the fights he could start at the dance hall. Seems the small = nearby=20 farming communities were sorta "clannish". Orange Grove was all Dutch, = San=20 Patricio was Irish-Mex mix, Alice was German, Robstown was Czech,=20 Kingsville  some part Jewish settlement... and so on . The = dance hall=20 was midway between the towns.

To get a fight started, my smartaleck kid friend would stand outside = and=20 shout to one of the guys inside saying... "did you hear what that Bohunk = called=20 you".. the fight would start in earnest.. all it takes is to play the = card..=20 ethnic, culture and race..

Fun stuff.eh?  Back to talking about science  ideas.. the = highest=20 form of gossip!!!

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C70669.D8F535F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C70669.D8F228B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c7069c$2344ba40$32027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C70669.D8F228B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 13:33:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACLX2h0028382; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:33:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLX1Fg028350; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:33:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:33:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Fev6o3GuqKVZgLjfGN6lBpLW7PAP2juGn6DtPOumD0OTx/+bHc0Ld5L20xqFtx4H; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611012213257598 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:32:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400217f83c169dde2a0a3b3c3c5c951c4d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.105 Resent-Message-ID: <4ON7VB.A.u6G.MM5VFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Canadian College/University experiments where high potentials were applied to various parallel-plate capacitors, suggest a Podkletnov type gravity shielding or even perhaps a mass cancellation effect at electrostatic field strengths of 20 Megavolts per meter (20 kilovolts/millimeter) using hard vacuum dielectric concentric sphere or cylindrical capacitors. On a beam balance air buoyancy or weight loss would be indistinguishable. This may allow a spacecraft to cruise at light speed or beyond (FTL-Superluminal velocities). Possible "cloaking" or the illusion of bone crushing maneuvering too. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
The Canadian College/University experiments where
high potentials were applied to various parallel-plate
capacitors, suggest a Podkletnov type gravity shielding
or even perhaps a mass cancellation effect at electrostatic
field strengths of 20 Megavolts per meter (20 kilovolts/millimeter)
using hard vacuum dielectric concentric sphere or cylindrical capacitors.
On a beam balance air buoyancy or weight loss would be indistinguishable.
This may allow a spacecraft to cruise at light speed or beyond (FTL-Superluminal velocities).
Possible "cloaking" or the illusion of bone crushing maneuvering too.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 13:42:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACLfc1g001363; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:41:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLfbia001347; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:41:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:41:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:41:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: Tesla list In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Vancouver BC Tesla Conference (this Fri Nov 17) Status: O X-Status: This friday at Simon Fraser U. is "International Tesla Day 2006" and all-day symposium (registration required, $20, deadline Tues.) Nikola Tesla: Celebrating the Legacy http://tesla2006.irmacs.sfu.ca/ Schedule Friday, November 17, 2006 the IRMACS Centre, Simon Fraser University 1. 8:00 - 9:00 Registration and Coffee 2. 9:00 - 9:30 Opening Remarks 3. 9:30 - 10:30 Prof. Aleksandar Marincic, Serbian Acad of Sci Nikola Tesla contribution to radio development 4. 10:30 - 10:45 Coffee Break 5. 10:45 - 11:45 Prof. Emeritus Anthony Arrott, Dept of Phys, SFU Tesla and Edison according to Henry Ford 6. 11:45 - 13:00 Lunch (provided) 7. 13:00 - 14:00 Prof. Emeritus Konrad Reichert, ETH Zurich, Sw. Permanent-magnet machines, trends, problems and simplified simulation by fe-methods 8. 14:00 - 15:00 Prof. Bret Heinrich, Department of Physics, SFU Spintronics-new way of electronics 9. 15:00 - 15:15 Coffee Break 10. 15:15 - 16:15 Prof. Jose Marti, Department of Elect. Eng., UBC Nikola Tesla, an Engineer 11. 16:15 - 17:15 Prof. Milos D. Ercegovac, Comp Sci Dept, UCLA Omnipresence of Tesla's work and ideas 12. 17:15 - 19:30 Reception (found by Segue F.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 14:06:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACM09li019041; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:06:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLrjn3014341; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:53:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:53:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:54:46 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation In-reply-to: <410-2200611012213257598 earthlink.net> To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611121654.46517.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <410-2200611012213257598 earthlink.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 12 November 2006 16:32, Frederick Sparber wrote: > The Canadian College/University experiments where > high potentials were applied to various parallel-plate > capacitors, suggest a Podkletnov type gravity shielding > or even perhaps a mass cancellation effect at electrostatic > field strengths of 20 Megavolts per meter (20 kilovolts/millimeter) > using hard vacuum dielectric concentric sphere or cylindrical capacitors. > On a beam balance air buoyancy or weight loss would be indistinguishable. > This may allow a spacecraft to cruise at light speed or beyond > (FTL-Superluminal velocities). Possible "cloaking" or the illusion of bone > crushing maneuvering too. > > Fred would this explain the corona discharge noticed around UFO's? Not to mention the ability to turn very quickly. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 14:06:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACM09lk019041; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:06:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLqIac013553; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: Tesla list , dorkbotsea-blabber@dorkbot.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Travelling Tesla exhibit, Nov 11-16 Vancouver BC Status: O X-Status: Nikola Tesla's Wonderful World of Electricity Exhibition from the Nikola Tesla Belgrade Museum November 16 30, 2006 BC Hydro Lobby 333 Dunsmuir Street Vancouver, BC, V6B 5R3 Monday-Friday 9:00 am-7:00 pm Saturday, Sunday 12:00 pm-5:00 pm OFFICIAL OPENING OF TESLA EXHIBITION Saturday, November 18, 2006, 12:00 pm MORE INFO: A traveling exhibition from the Nikola Tesla Museum, is shown in only 4 cities in the world: Perth, Vienna, Paris and Vancouver. The Exhibition, under the technical sponsorship of IEEE Vancouver Section, will arrive to Vancouver on November 14th and will be set up in the Foyer of the BC Hydro Head Office which has been generously donated by BC Hydro. To learn more about how you can Donate to enable this and other related events commemorating the 150th Anniversary of Tesla's birth, click HERE http://www.teslavancouver2006.com/Links.html EXHIBITION: The exhibition will present the chronological events in Tesla 1. Tesla's heritage and family (Gospic, Karlovac, Graz, Prague); 2. Employment in Europe (Budapest, Paris, Strasburg) 3. Early period of his work in USA 4. Scientific contribution in various fields (power engineering, communications, circuits, control systems, mechanical engineering) 5. The most important Awards and Recognitions The exhibition includes 55 panels 1m x 2m of reproduced photographs from different segments of Tesla's life and work, four models of facilities and plants, five working models of his inventions and three computer 3D presentations of inventions. The contents of models and 3D animations are as follows: Facilities and Plant Models: 1. Niagara Hydro Power Plant 2. Colorado Springs Laboratory 3. Long Island Laboratory 4. Airplane with vertical take-off Working Models (interactive): 1. Induction motor with rotating egg 2. Induction motor with disc rotor 3. Tesla's Transformer 4. Tesla's Pump 5. Principle of operation of turbine and pump 3D computer animations: 1. Tesla's Pump 2. Tesla's Fan 3. Airplane with vertical take-off The official opening of the Traveling Exhibition is planned on November 18, 2006. The closing of the exhibition will be on November 30, 2006. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 14:06:48 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACM09lm019041; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:06:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACLoKlr012708; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:50:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:51:13 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fwd: Beyond Petroleum In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101163742.02b8db80 mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611121651.13169.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061101163742.02b8db80 mail.newenergytimes.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <9JfKSC.A.WGD.bc5VFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just a thought that I might add. BP is owned by Sultan of Kuwait. In Kuwait and in the 'Magic Kingdom' it is called 'Q8' and not BP. Eventually it may be renamed as to its true ownership here as well. The sultan is not in any danger of getting poor. Although his country is at the head of the Arabian Gulf and his oil, a lot of it, goes through the Strait of Hormuz. That passage might just get blocked for a long time if our American Prez has his way and provokes a stupid war and totally unecessary and counterproductive war with our natural allies in the region, Iran. Yes, our natural allies! If that strait is blocked, say by a sunken ship, clearing it may be next to impossible as it would have to be done under constant fire. The risk is that a ship sent to raise the ship may just end up sunk on top of the first ship and there would be more ships to raise, still under fire. This of course would mean that oil prices would skyrocket on a bibical scale, to be joined later by similar increases in food prices. Takes fuel to run tractors. Who knows, maybe the sultan knows something we do not. During the Iran/Iraq war, ship sinkings often went unreported for days, and unexplained drops in shipping company stock were often because of these. The lack of reporting allowed insiders to sell off their holdings, leaving the public holding the bag. Standing Bear. > >Subject: Beyond Petroleum > > > >aha...good info...thanks > > > >they don't call themselves British Petroleum anymore ...just BP... ughh. > > > >Maybe I can forgo the name Steve Krivit and just have people call me SK? > > > >;) > > > >SK > > > >>Hi Steve: > >> > >> > >>I presume you are referring to British Petroleum. Given the problems > >>they are having with their pipeline I don't think you need any pending > >>major news. Whatever comes out of that is going to be between bad and > >>worse. There is clearly culpability on BP's side. What is not clear, > >>yet, is whether it will be negligence or malfeasance. Cutting down on > >>gas cards may be liability limiting move. OTOH, as it says on the gas > >>card home page, the Web site is new. It could simply be that the site > >>does not work right. > >> > >>-xxxx From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 14:15:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACMA4QW030063; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:14:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACM0H0v019161; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:00:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: Tesla list , dorkbotsea-blabber@dorkbot.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: photos from Tesla travelling exhibit Status: O X-Status: I found a site which has photos of the Tesla travelling exhibit from when it was in Australia in October: http://teslaforum.com/2006%20Tesla%20exibition/2006%20Tesla%20Exibition.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 15:13:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACNDJXf031661; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:13:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kACNDGLe031605; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:13:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:13:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=sF3yUDLJqcoFtIJ+ptQF6KQBdc+5DG4v5l3vtowhyVvEWLphxHO6IseajtHdsPpE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061101223134922 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:13:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403be48928da9fc09625af37d23473f422350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.181 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: Standing Bear > To: ; > > would this explain the corona discharge noticed around UFO's? Not to mention > the ability to turn very quickly. > > Standing Bear > If you pump electrons from an inner hollow cylinder or sphere (or saucers take your pick, Terry likes triangle-shaped ones with spheres-within-spheres at the corners connected by cylinders-within-cylinders passageways that make crop circles.) to the outer or vice-versa ,there is no net charge on the craft wrt. the earth-atmosphere. OTOH. if you cancel inertial mass the only possible means of propulsion would have to be electrical or magnetic fields. It takes about 60 MegaJoules per kilogram to achieve escape velocity from the earth. Or about a Hundred Megatons of TNT equivalent to get a craft like the 200 tonne Space Shuttle up to 1/100th the speed of light. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 16:46:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAD0kOnS023993; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:46:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAD0PSQs028268; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:25:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:25:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ItXMZiMyepn+2ybCvvSpS9mydYVVaMF4YvVjVr/Da3G4Vmf9NQlOxOyn20wYZSVF5VCuizSFYvCSFaXf2mCc2p3vmHs0wUamFYdPPcEba5YC4W2oXbKQv6CSPoezGUDSmzrqckvyCf8alVyjk+9yq6ipi2k/UXFZK+VxcF3O4hA= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/12/06, Philip Winestone wrote: > You're quite right Jones... for what it's worth, I genuinely appreciate > both your attitude and your approach. There is but a single law: "Treat others as you would be treated." http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html Would all follow this law, we would be admitted into the Galactic Federation. Until then, we are considered unintelligent. Rightly so. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 18:07:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAD27XsX013569; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:07:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAD27TOB013516; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:07:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SVSii/TBfrvvSAGkKRZyuQHaR+0NibumOjb/3SRw+FMzFQ3TYOXhUjMN1KEweN2T6jRKYC225LEiMnuVkrqWQlYfC3KeGCZEo2i8VLQeSQIO0ds3nzYPNMlGs6gQTPDLp+qO5Wf/tWURIQX/91KyINuuhFXTT0VvqgV5BHUI1x4= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:59:54 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112200500.00ba7ac0 pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> <6.1.1.1.1.20061112200500.00ba7ac0 pop> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAD27PaU013453 Resent-Message-ID: <9-CxEB.A.9SD.gN9VFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/12/06, Philip Winestone wrote: > Terry - perhaps there's a corollary to that law: > > "As you treat others, so you will be treated." Yes, it's called "Karma", aka "reap what you sow" (x10). Yours is agressive, mine is passive; and, is as taught by Yesua. Namasté. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 19:30:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAD3UbQL006925; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:30:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAD3UasA006909; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:30:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:30:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:31:46 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation In-reply-to: <410-220061101223134922 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611122231.46036.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <410-220061101223134922 earthlink.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 12 November 2006 18:13, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > [Original Message] > > From: Standing Bear > > To: ; > > > > would this explain the corona discharge noticed around UFO's? Not to > > mention > > > the ability to turn very quickly. > > > > Standing Bear > > If you pump electrons from an inner hollow cylinder or sphere (or saucers > take your pick, Terry > likes triangle-shaped ones with spheres-within-spheres at the corners > connected by cylinders-within-cylinders passageways that make crop > circles.) to the outer or vice-versa ,there is no net charge on the craft > wrt. the earth-atmosphere. > > OTOH. if you cancel inertial mass the only possible means of propulsion > would have > to be electrical or magnetic fields. > > It takes about 60 MegaJoules per kilogram to achieve escape velocity > from the earth. Or about a Hundred Megatons of TNT equivalent > to get a craft like the 200 tonne Space Shuttle up to 1/100th the speed of > light. > > Fred Ja, AOK, about sixty MJ/Kgm for deltaV approx 7mi/sec. However, inertial mass is cancelled for this ship by the mass cancellation apparatus as you have said, so effective mass goes to zero through positive values, and acceleration is F= m{ dV' +dV'' +dV'''.....dV'''n} ! therefore F=m{taylor series summation of the above Davis mechanics formula using also rates of onset of accel} so { } =F/m at almost zero and approaching zero then accel will be effectively infinite! with no inertial effects felt inside the 'bubble'. When does the first ship leave for Orion? Standing Bear Davis mechanics has been used by the Army in weapons design, notably the main 122mm gun mounted on the Abrams Tank. Engineering science breaks down for impact loaded structures. In the old days, empirical constructs like giving a liberal factor of safety of almost fifty percent was used to allow for this where deemed necessary. This was because nobody really knew. In the early seventies a Florida scientist named Davis figured something was going on involving higher derivatives of the velocity vector with regards to the force equation. This is why compressed air nail guns work, and straws go through telephone poles in tornadoes, etc. He conveniently died soon after publishing his theories, and the idea seemed to disappear and the public forgot. The government did not. They read his papers very well, it appears. So did a scientist named Bull who later went to work for insane hussain. From fjsparber earthlink.net Sun Nov 12 15:28:37 2006 Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACNSWto010535 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:28:37 -0800 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PCenA0/g6QIKkUk27t2b3gA+lvpMbryyQG3gS1PLCVKREPFjapdZUL8L8cwaVJIP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [4.240.117.181] (helo=earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GjOka-0006sD-1o for billb eskimo.com; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0500 Message-ID: <410-220061101223282230 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: billb eskimo.com Subject: FW: Re: FW: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:28:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408b9911b6c658a975ac4df3d4de8846a5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.181 Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: Vesselin Petkov > To: > Cc: > Date: 11/12/2006 4:08:56 PM > Subject: Re: FW: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation > > I have never heard of such experiments. In my paper: > > http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9906059 > > I did mention capacitors but so far I have not found time to calculate the > effect. > > Vesselin Petkov > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 5:48 PM > Subject: Fwd: FW: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation > > > > Do you have a reference on this? Was it your work? > > > > Hal Puthoff > > > From dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org Sun Nov 12 13:52:34 2006 Received: from music.columbia.edu (roar.music.columbia.edu [128.59.195.116]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACLqW90013681 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:33 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7954075FF0; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from music.columbia.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (roar.music.columbia.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07121-03; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roar.music.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904C04075F99; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:27 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org Delivered-To: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1C34075F83 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from music.columbia.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (roar.music.columbia.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07030-10 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (ultra5.eskimo.com [204.122.16.68]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1284075F6A for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACLq852013438; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:09 -0800 Received: from localhost (billb localhost) by eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01495; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at music.columbia.edu Cc: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org, Tesla list Subject: [dorkbotsea-blabber] Travelling Tesla exhibit, Nov 11-16 Vancouver BC X-BeenThere: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: A discussion list for dorkbot-sea List-Id: A discussion list for dorkbot-sea List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org Errors-To: dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at music.columbia.edu Status: RO X-Status: Nikola Tesla's Wonderful World of Electricity Exhibition from the Nikola Tesla Belgrade Museum November 16 30, 2006 BC Hydro Lobby 333 Dunsmuir Street Vancouver, BC, V6B 5R3 Monday-Friday 9:00 am-7:00 pm Saturday, Sunday 12:00 pm-5:00 pm OFFICIAL OPENING OF TESLA EXHIBITION Saturday, November 18, 2006, 12:00 pm MORE INFO: A traveling exhibition from the Nikola Tesla Museum, is shown in only 4 cities in the world: Perth, Vienna, Paris and Vancouver. The Exhibition, under the technical sponsorship of IEEE Vancouver Section, will arrive to Vancouver on November 14th and will be set up in the Foyer of the BC Hydro Head Office which has been generously donated by BC Hydro. To learn more about how you can Donate to enable this and other related events commemorating the 150th Anniversary of Tesla's birth, click HERE http://www.teslavancouver2006.com/Links.html EXHIBITION: The exhibition will present the chronological events in Tesla 1. Tesla's heritage and family (Gospic, Karlovac, Graz, Prague); 2. Employment in Europe (Budapest, Paris, Strasburg) 3. Early period of his work in USA 4. Scientific contribution in various fields (power engineering, communications, circuits, control systems, mechanical engineering) 5. The most important Awards and Recognitions The exhibition includes 55 panels 1m x 2m of reproduced photographs from different segments of Tesla's life and work, four models of facilities and plants, five working models of his inventions and three computer 3D presentations of inventions. The contents of models and 3D animations are as follows: Facilities and Plant Models: 1. Niagara Hydro Power Plant 2. Colorado Springs Laboratory 3. Long Island Laboratory 4. Airplane with vertical take-off Working Models (interactive): 1. Induction motor with rotating egg 2. Induction motor with disc rotor 3. Tesla's Transformer 4. Tesla's Pump 5. Principle of operation of turbine and pump 3D computer animations: 1. Tesla's Pump 2. Tesla's Fan 3. Airplane with vertical take-off The official opening of the Traveling Exhibition is planned on November 18, 2006. The closing of the exhibition will be on November 30, 2006. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci ........................................................................ .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity.......... ..........................http://dorkbot.org............................ ........................................................................ From dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org Sun Nov 12 14:18:46 2006 Received: from music.columbia.edu (roar.music.columbia.edu [128.59.195.116]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACMIiY3012198 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:18:45 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48D340764A0; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from music.columbia.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (roar.music.columbia.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07301-10; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roar.music.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D52B407644C; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:23 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org Delivered-To: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9524F407643D for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from music.columbia.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (roar.music.columbia.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07270-10 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (ultra5.eskimo.com [204.122.16.68]) by music.columbia.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6B84076424 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kACM06YB018977; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:00:06 -0800 Received: from localhost (billb localhost) by eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01814; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061112134055.01e8e448 twfpowerelectronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at music.columbia.edu Cc: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org, Tesla list Subject: [dorkbotsea-blabber] photos from Tesla travelling exhibit X-BeenThere: dorkbotsea-blabber dorkbot.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: A discussion list for dorkbot-sea List-Id: A discussion list for dorkbot-sea List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org Errors-To: dorkbotsea-blabber-bounces dorkbot.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at music.columbia.edu Status: RO X-Status: I found a site which has photos of the Tesla travelling exhibit from when it was in Australia in October: http://teslaforum.com/2006%20Tesla%20exibition/2006%20Tesla%20Exibition.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci ........................................................................ .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity.......... ..........................http://dorkbot.org............................ ........................................................................ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 12 17:41:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAD1fKix012054; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:41:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAD1fHTZ012015; Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:41:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:41:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=K6Q1JSGVm8b3uGBFE1e78Z89vHQsEevzHcLRy4n9U7mEeMTz+w7eF8XJ++VU2MAcB9sQttsCHvntOCzNuRBuxtxvwG4SS9KgtLcSyrJzg4F4iCcR73H9zRvLx4Y78hp7SZYPw7ms4qFJjUCdUnSOL+SPtdU7RA4nNTkaPlbMw90= ; X-YMail-OSG: oz2x8NEVM1nWpuCzaptghgioexN2HBwSCmjDETzu8.8JW6X1IRRc6yzgisVuqKGUDqwVROdLHwzp8xRKFuhLCsBmSmWhpqo5k.TfN6aNzyE9bwpq91GLeA-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061112200500.00ba7ac0 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:09:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Terry - perhaps there's a corollary to that law: "As you treat others, so you will be treated." [From the alter-dimensional treatise on Galactic Federation Law] P. At 07:23 PM 11/12/2006 -0500, you wrote: >On 11/12/06, Philip Winestone wrote: >>You're quite right Jones... for what it's worth, I genuinely appreciate >>both your attitude and your approach. > >There is but a single law: "Treat others as you would be treated." > >http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html > >Would all follow this law, we would be admitted into the Galactic >Federation. Until then, we are considered unintelligent. > >Rightly so. > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 02:16:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADAGS0r024191; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:16:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADAGP9b024159; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:16:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 02:16:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZS0WMUaZj3+o5fGFUux1MJLKt6ADVda7Ayc1q/47KooSB1/j+dWD2DT+ppuEVIOg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611113101617776 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:16:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94008f7d8112b3a59697441502d8eaf1ca6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.128 Resent-Message-ID: <7gEwRD.A.X5F.4XEWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Google came through. http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Google came through.
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 12:37:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADKUObl027760; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:37:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADKJANU015260; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:19:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:19:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RnO0d4oLvrcOazk5Y40a0/M06pnrLjPsEBJ5zvCjwEU+fyl5swWcQzBqydBDvIKt; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:19:09 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20061113192712.22676.qmail web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407617863ddc00632bba18a5efb5323019350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Deborah D. L. Chung has been on this issue for some time, the following links may be of interest in ref. to the carbon resistor and excess energy. The Chung's Negative Resistance experiment Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at University at Buffalo (UB) http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cnr/index.htm Created by Deborah Chung, Niagara Mohawk Professor of Materials Research in the UB School of Engineering and Applied Sciences Thermal Paste To Help Minimize Overheating In Electronic Devices http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/07/030714092651.htm http://jim.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/17/1/57.pdf http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=APPLAB0 00087000013133118000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes -----Original Message----- From: Paul [mailto:softwarelabus yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:27 AM To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage noise than Metal film resistors. That by itself proves nothing, but when applied to an antenna with radiation resistance we disprove the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Consider two experiments where the only difference is one uses a noisier resistor as a voltage source. Preface: Radiation resistance generates no thermal noise. Experiment A: Resistor in series with an antenna. Thermal noise source resistance: R Antenna radiation resistance: Rr RMS thermal noise: Va RMS current: Va / (R + Rr) Radiated power: I^2 Rr = (Va / (R + Rr))^2 * Rr Experiment B, with noisier resistor: Resistor in series with an antenna. Thermal noise source resistance: R Antenna radiation resistance: Rr RMS thermal noise: Va * 1.1 RMS current: Va * 1.1 / (R + Rr) Radiated power: I^2 Rr = (Va * 1.1 / (R + Rr))^2 * Rr Experiment B radiates more power. Experiment B will be cooler than experiment A. Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment A. Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment A. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate Click now to apply http://yahoo.degrees.info From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 12:45:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADKBUQV010600; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:18:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADJRIrC026057; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=q8H6aASZJ1EqxpHUpnCg1eUaOtt0K3WBrLPFyL7T29cbQfKwxV0xP4OpZpL8mZV+VGX1Vr1iNxx/4Czb8PO5yA2D8vxTzBlZyEDx/pSSYJ/OV7xYdNqRiOJcNlMpkCi/KGu/iS3A0nBEl3Muq3heSSVLg/y2JnZQvGsR8zdOBN8= ; Message-ID: <20061113192712.22676.qmail web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:11 -0800 (PST) From: Paul To: vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-2200611113101617776 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Status: RO X-Status: Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage noise than Metal film resistors. That by itself proves nothing, but when applied to an antenna with radiation resistance we disprove the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Consider two experiments where the only difference is one uses a noisier resistor as a voltage source. Preface: Radiation resistance generates no thermal noise. Experiment A: Resistor in series with an antenna. Thermal noise source resistance: R Antenna radiation resistance: Rr RMS thermal noise: Va RMS current: Va / (R + Rr) Radiated power: I^2 Rr = (Va / (R + Rr))^2 * Rr Experiment B, with noisier resistor: Resistor in series with an antenna. Thermal noise source resistance: R Antenna radiation resistance: Rr RMS thermal noise: Va * 1.1 RMS current: Va * 1.1 / (R + Rr) Radiated power: I^2 Rr = (Va * 1.1 / (R + Rr))^2 * Rr Experiment B radiates more power. Experiment B will be cooler than experiment A. Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment A. Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment A. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate Click now to apply http://yahoo.degrees.info From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 12:45:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADKUObj027760; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:36:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADKO0fb019408; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:24:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:24:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=DNwrAhd+xi7Wjlz3pL39KK09Msk4sq4o1v1hhmv0Am9VF7u+0W8ekYagANs84SgWGYXKGX0IaFzy5XWsJBqSJ1RibiY8Ic8DNUtF/jceU9mupvpjwFpXGxbvkiyQQCGIsnrfxxa/5uXQXNmgRVf9gG/uXWI702DmANkGY6IjPng= ; X-YMail-OSG: MljPYkUVM1lUHJnHly4LRihM23SdrQSEwLJcR.cOY4UAmMn6MzgC7X9JxtsuBuvw8UiSGIKnbnwHcDuS9ypM3mUgseek.VNGUD1MafRxFgU0w7puvCx_1unUMOQKEUorC_Uui56duntpYB.3qB_ZXuY8kaG_nzVCdnY- Message-ID: <00da01c70761$a4b42500$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:23:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <6eXHuB.A.LvE.fRNWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In an earlier thread concerning the significance of a large external electric field to the SPAWAR experimental results, announced in "New Energy Times" it was mentioned that there were a number of possible explanations, including: 7) an alteration in "time" itself such that a normal QM probability distributions become highly skewed. To which Steve Krivit appropriately responded: > Good lord! ...to which I (with no pretense of being that higher authority) countered: > Actually there is mainstream science that supports this > conclusion. Cites to follow. > Of course, I was being a bit overly dramatic, but yes, "time > alteration" (in the sense of changing an applicable time > constant with HV) is probably in tune with mainstream science as > much as anything else in the experiment itself ;-) OK. I have been collecting a bunch of citations to offer: where different experiments were performed in which some physical time-denominated property (i.e, it includes /dt) like radioactive decay rate or even "weight" (time denominated in the sense of gravitational acceleration) was or can be modified in its normal reaction rate by a strong external electric or magnetic field. Fred's recent post reminded me of this change in the rate of gravitational acceleration, as being possibly 'on point' to the SPAWAR experiment). This does not mean that this is the correct explanation for anything to do with LENR - but it could very well be involved in some significant way, along with other factors like a transient BEC state which is slightly prolonged by time dilation. First however, is the theory. Don't be put-off by the fact that is has a distinct Tom Bearden "ring" to it (it does) because this may be one of the theoretical things which TB has been partly correct about. He may remain (to some observers) the most disappointing figure in the pursuit of free-energy, given his many failed promises, giant ego and false claims, but the guy is intelligent, with or without that putative PhD. The paper in question is: "Physical Space as a Quaternion Structure, Maxwell Equations. " by Peter Michael Jack (July 18, 2003) This paper shows how to write Maxwell's Equations in Hamilton's Quaternions. If P.M. Jack is correct, then Bearden screwed up his own math in a small detail, and failed to see the real significance of the quaternion result - wrt Maxwell's. http://arxiv.org/pdf/math-ph/0307038 "The fact that the quaternion product is non-commuting leads to distinct left and right derivatives which must both be included in the theory. A new field component is then revealed, which reduces part of the degree of freedom found in the gauge, but which can then be used to explain thermoelectricity, suggesting that the theory of heat has just as fundamental a connection to electromagnetism as the magnetic field has to the electric field, for the new theory now links thermal, electric, and magnetic phenomena altogether in one set of elementary equations. This result is based on an initial hypothesis, named "The Quaternion Axiom," that postulates physical space is a quaternion structure." It is worth a read if you are not put off by the math. More later about how time (dt) can be modified by an electric field to both drastically speed-up a low-probability QM reaction and to also account for how the normal gamma or other high energy radiation becomes immediately downshifted into lower energy photons, and to account for the alteration in D+D "branching" which favors tritium over 3He. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 12:53:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADKqwq5017044; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:52:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADKqtg5016986; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:47:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200611113101617776 earthlink.net> <20061113192712.22676.qmail@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061113192712.22676.qmail web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:47:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kADKqq5U016848 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Paul's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:11 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power >source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates >more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, >more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment A. >Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment >A. Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought that thermal noise occurred as a consequence of a current passing through a resistor. A current driven by an external voltage. I didn't think that resistors actually generated anything by themselves. Hence, I wouldn't expect either experiment to radiate anything at all (through the antenna). (The only radiation I would expect would be normal thermal radiation, from the body of the resistor, as a consequence of their being at a specific temperature.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 12:58:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADKwVZt021984; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:58:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADKwNQW021883; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:58:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:58:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=fI97dYUNDMoSL1E2U8yoaMCVpZ0WtBooO7lx1sqM5q66TIBMSgyjzvj2tSqJNxrrPUVkdMXkpItyMC61IRMPYaIJinSryDOUhDs719ynfr7ioEYCYaZWVmd5cEkKX5rXy+GbC1/wTlPgFqZ5kahjg01w8TgWOwhbXnsru6OASZU= ; X-YMail-OSG: feO82YoVM1meIsSeNbILELIPtR4HkuLRlliovXCvPFDnAGlHTDgMKnHjOaPvvL2Eaynbc9ErPJrlj5bMXBJ2EkHBWSV1SSGVTopPB8YIMGoqZwx6kY4vSQ-- Message-ID: <002901c7074f$23774ba0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-2200611113101617776 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:11:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C7070C.1441D850" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <3edg-C.A.UVF.sxNWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C7070C.1441D850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This article may have relevance to the recent SPAWAR experiment. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Sparber=20 To: vortex-l=20 Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:16 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Google came through. http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C7070C.1441D850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This article may have relevance to the recent SPAWAR = experiment.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Frederick Sparber
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 = 2:16=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass = Cancellation

Google came = through.
 
 
http://www.space= -mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C7070C.1441D850-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 13:25:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADLDh4U003883; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADLDf1d003847; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kKBynGYwHoW/Y0XgZVySQobNqQZPGJry+fDmzK2ojTOJkAZSQcydPMHhi4zzQ8QN; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:02:37 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ddfa59ca16c3fe87c69c9cf3104ee628350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why have we tried to decrease the ‘time’ measurement window? Look at the first oscilloscopes, they were deemed a great advance in measurement technology, yet they were slow, the window was broad. Technology improved and we began to see things in waveforms that we were amazed with. The faster the scope got the more we saw and the more we understood, to a limit. Storage scopes were the butter on the bread, yet x-hertz views did and do not exist today. So in short, how do we view an event in real time? We don’t. The only way you can view an event is if you are viewing in the same time frame as the event. Okay what does this mean? It means you are the event! Your can never be the observer and see what is taking place in the event, unless you are the event. In short we can never see that short time frame where dimensional interaction is actually playing a part in the observed reaction. Left field? Okay, but so are some of the other Hypotheses such as ‘String Theory’. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 13:28:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADLDheT003880; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADLDdF7003819; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:13:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=suPZFzcVA9I0fxh1hVCpXtsmZnwBY1iAE8voAVcU7CI8+H45dhSbNlyj8St+6T86; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:13:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ddfa59ca16c3fe87a369eb98c3ceeb6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin! I'm at a loss? So you are saying that 'Carbon' has 0 {zero} background radiation? Like it is at 0 K' Why can not an object which radiates energy (we know all thing do) can not be fed into an antenna, properly tuned and transmit energy? Maybe your time is before the old carbon element phones where we turned a crank to ring the phone of whom we were calling and often found that the noise from the 'mouth piece' element was extreme an higher that our voice signal? -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:48 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect In reply to Paul's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:11 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power >source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates >more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, >more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment A. >Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment >A. Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought that thermal noise occurred as a consequence of a current passing through a resistor. A current driven by an external voltage. I didn't think that resistors actually generated anything by themselves. Hence, I wouldn't expect either experiment to radiate anything at all (through the antenna). (The only radiation I would expect would be normal thermal radiation, from the body of the resistor, as a consequence of their being at a specific temperature.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 14:43:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADMeHWg016937; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:43:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADMYkvR009107; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:34:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:34:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:15:33 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Message-ID: <20061113221533.GA30771 linux> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435@linux> <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0@NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0 NuDell> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: <6AwdUD.A.HOC.FMPWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, Nov 10, 2006 at 06:14:11PM -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >Just thinking out loud, the short list of excludable (alterable) >properties which a high external electric field might arguably >influence - include: > [1 to 6]... >7) an alteration in "time" itself such that a normal QM >probability distributions and determinations become highly skewed. Jones, thanks for these very interesting ideas. Your messages are always a pleasure to read! If an electric field could alter the rate of flow of time, wouldn't it have been noticed? For example, two gas lasers (e.g., the widely used CW helium-neon) would produce a beat frequency if the voltage across their gas discharge tubes were different and their beams were combined on a nonlinear detector. Differences in power supply regulation would change the beat frequency when the line voltage changed. Or high precision spectroscopy would show movement of spectral lines as the voltage was changed on gas-discharge tubes, laser or not. Unless the E-field changed some other parameter that oppositely affected the frequency of light generated by electron level transitions. But then the changes in that parameter would be noticed by their effect on other phenomena. Getting back to the SPAWAR cell, if the external E-field accelerated some sort of charged particles from the environment into the cell, they might affect the reaction. But being charged, and thus strongly interacting with matter, would they be able to penetrate the cell walls? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 14:52:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADMoDs9026668; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:52:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADMhnnq019348; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:43:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061113224342.ABD598A190 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:43:42 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: But isn't this effect more closely related to Brown-Biefeld; or am I missing something? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 15:14:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADNEBLw018716; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:14:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADNE08h018582; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:14:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:14:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=FC9p+F2/c5WqKo5GLw/n1ZKZAUcyW7yzdHH6u+6p0yx4fbgrMpFHQqohKfEY5nT/K8+9ahjDBhadRz0OG+vomjC1y5T+ws9uIj+DtZcfwqvzbdpwGAf6tQej2oXmxdVeUY46EqVC1bi8/FzEr6eY46mnkBNtR6oWi+ukQh9zXBs= ; Message-ID: <015c01c70779$5f24c130$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435@linux> <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0@NuDell> <20061113221533.GA30771@linux> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:13:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <9DgAwD.A.FiE.3wPWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark > If an electric field could alter the rate of flow of time, > wouldn't it have been noticed? With the proper instrumentation, we should get a hint - and we are getting closer to that point where quantum changes are becomming noticeable on advanced meters - to the extent that we don't alter the event itself - which is always the problem. As Ron Stiffler was saying today on another subject: "The faster the scope got the more we saw and the more we understood, to a limit. Storage scopes were the butter on the bread, yet x-hertz views did and do not exist today. ...So in short, how do we view an event in real time? We don't. The only way you can view an event is if you are viewing in the same time frame as the event." Often this proble will resolve itself semantic-wise - only through using statistics and probability. We try to record a quantum event and we alter it - but if we alter it in a predictable way, and record this by the millions - then it might be feasible to use statistical inferences to say something meaningful about the altered event. >For example, two gas lasers.... OK to change the context of that a bit - here is a query, not an answer: do you think that passing a laser beam of known frequency through a long and fully charged Tesla Coil, will alter the frequency of that beam - even by a small amount ? And would you agree that even if it is changed by only a few parts per trillion, that it would be evidence of alteration of time? Gets a little tricky to be certain when it comes down to brass tacks... or parts per trillion. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 15:44:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADNhjwt011253; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:43:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADNhgUV011217; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:43:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:43:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c70775$273807e0$6cd9163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net><002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0@NuDell><6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48@pop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:43:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? > Would all follow this law, we would be admitted into the Galactic > Federation. Until then, we are considered unintelligent. Unless the Galactic Federation (or locally most advanced interstellar species) subscribes to Pellegrino/Zebrowski's version of the "relativistic" Golden Rule: "Do unto others as they would do unto you, and do it first." ;) --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 15:47:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kADNldOT013493; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:47:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kADNlbG6013456; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:47:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:58:34 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220061101223134922 earthlink.net> <200611122231.46036.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> In-Reply-To: <200611122231.46036.rockcastle lakeside1.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:58:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kADNlWDU013390 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Sun, 12 Nov 2006 22:31:46 -0500: Hi, [snip] >When does the first ship leave for Orion? [snip] The Phoenix has already departed. Sorry you missed the boat. ;^) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 16:14:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE0DuML001250; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:13:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE0DqEq001200; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:13:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:13:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=o7gCwbP2OjTZVimZzxzbihA25e5MNPLUo7K1UU73lF4IHdzG/vd980wdD+vKaKWwM8N6dl9YM2gk1GehGjkXtS7MWs+sMGJ3azMob6d1A/lTg4ZS1hpyIflJ/rb/+CHRK5XO7T35ARswyy9uU0U7pHwL4GyZjh0mQvXa8+jr67w= ; Message-ID: <20061113222708.15474.qmail web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:27:08 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 > 11:27:11 -0800 > (PST): > Hi, > [snip] > >Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power > >source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates > >more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, > >more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment > A. > >Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment A. > Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought that > thermal noise occurred as a consequence of a current > passing through a resistor. A current driven by an external > voltage. I didn't think that resistors actually generated > anything by themselves. Hence, I wouldn't expect either > experiment to radiate anything at all (through the antenna). > (The only radiation I would expect would be normal > thermal radiation, from the body of the resistor, as a > consequence of their being at a specific temperature.) > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Thermal noise is caused by vibrating thermal charges in matter. It's not related to any applied current. The rms voltage of thermal noise is : Vn = (4 K T R dF) ^ 0.5 K is Boltzmann constant, 1.3806503E-023 T is temperature in Kelvin R is resistance dF is bandwidth The total noise power in a matched load circuit is Pt = 4 K T dF Power across the matched load is Pt = 2 K T dF Of course that's not much power, but size is not a factor. So the object could be a nanometer. When you consider trillions of such objects with say 1 THz bandwidth then you are in well in the kilowatt region. 2 * 1.38E-023 * 295 K * 1.00e+12 = 8.142E-009 W 1 trillion such objects = 8.14 KW With just 1 GHz bandwidth, 8.14 W Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! http://www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 17:00:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE0eALe030959; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:40:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE0e525030870; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:40:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:40:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:39:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net><002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0@NuDell><6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48@pop> <000901c70775$273807e0$6cd9163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000901c70775$273807e0$6cd9163f DFBGQZ91> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:39:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAE0dtsX030704 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:43:32 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Unless the Galactic Federation (or locally most advanced interstellar >species) subscribes to Pellegrino/Zebrowski's version of the "relativistic" >Golden Rule: > >"Do unto others as they would do unto you, and do it first." ;) > >--Kyle A more likely rendition might be: Have others do unto themselves what they would do unto you...... Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 17:25:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE0w36I014595; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:58:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE0vt3H014472; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:57:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:57:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:57:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:57:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAE0vmv8014323 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to R Stiffler's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:13:45 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Robin! I'm at a loss? > >So you are saying that 'Carbon' has 0 {zero} background radiation? Like it >is at 0 K' No, what I was trying to say was that I didn't think you could measure an electrical signal coming from a carbon resistor (as opposed to a thermal signal). If you can, and there is an electrical signal, then you should be able to rectify it if you first pass it through a transformer to adequately increase the voltage. > >Why can not an object which radiates energy (we know all thing do) can not >be fed into an antenna, properly tuned and transmit energy? No antenna needed. The thing itself is already transmitting (and receiving) energy at IR frequencies. I just didn't think this manifested as an electrical current in the resistor (and I still don't). > >Maybe your time is before the old carbon element phones where we turned a >crank to ring the phone of whom we were calling and often found that the >noise from the 'mouth piece' element was extreme an higher that our voice >signal? Since these used an external current (supplied by the hand cranked generator), I don't think this example really makes your point very well. Furthermore, I suspect that the noise you refer to was primarily generated by graphite particles making and breaking contact with one another under influence from the voice itself. IOW no voice -> no noise. However I think I have used such a device maybe once in my lifetime, so my memory isn't all that good on that score. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] >Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:48 PM >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect > > >In reply to Paul's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:27:11 -0800 >(PST): >Hi, >[snip] >>Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power >>source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates >>more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, >>more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment A. >>Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment >>A. >Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought that thermal noise >occurred as a consequence of a current passing through a resistor. >A current driven by an external voltage. I didn't think that >resistors actually generated anything by themselves. Hence, I >wouldn't expect either experiment to radiate anything at all >(through the antenna). >(The only radiation I would expect would be normal thermal >radiation, from the body of the resistor, as a consequence of >their being at a specific temperature.) > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 17:32:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE1U47S004823; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:32:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE1QWCp001869; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:26:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:26:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oGmvEnhrKvt5yx4s+TbtFc1GvoNk6SSC+J7CQjnt79KJduTjgq0I54ulsLkMd3oWEDMG/GHXS3Lu/Y5CLS5lcfDmILAhsGrrhwTcJDl72ftGU1sOoxzAy3gfaLL8Ug9qmA4Q60sQJr5ycvv2wowQ0G0ZkYK+fPKr8nMnu3vtt/o= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:26:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Times In-Reply-To: <20061113221533.GA30771 linux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061109210627.03342908 mail.newenergytimes.com> <20061110153055.68359.qmail web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20061111010821.GA21435 linux> <00fd01c70537$14975270$6401a8c0@NuDell> <20061113221533.GA30771 linux> Resent-Message-ID: <4uxa2C.A.Ed.ItRWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 11/13/06, Mark S Bilk wrote: > If an electric field could alter the rate of flow of time, > wouldn't it have been noticed? For example, two gas lasers > (e.g., the widely used CW helium-neon) would produce a beat > frequency if the voltage across their gas discharge tubes > were different and their beams were combined on a nonlinear > detector. Differences in power supply regulation would > change the beat frequency when the line voltage changed. Better still, take a single laser and a beam splitter and subject one path to a large electrical gradient. As you vary the voltage the interference pattern would change. No, this is way too easy. We *would* have noticed it. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 22:24:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE6O99K027167; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:24:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE6O69i027151; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:24:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:24:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 01:24:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAE6O4PP027129 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/12/06, Philip Winestone wrote: >> Terry - perhaps there's a corollary to that law: >> >> "As you treat others, so you will be treated." > > Yes, it's called "Karma", aka "reap what you sow" (x10). > > Yours is agressive, mine is passive; and, is as taught by Yesua. > > Namasté. > > Terry > http://philosophy.tamu.edu/~gary/bioethics/ethicaltheory/universalizability. html Variations on the familiar "Golden Rule" are found in most world religions: * Christian version: "Treat others as you would like them to treat you" (Luke 6:31, New English Bible). * Hindu version: "Let not any man do unto another any act that he wisheth not done to himself by others, knowing it to be painful to himself" (Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, cclx.21). * Confucian version: "Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you" (Analects, Book xii, #2). * Buddhist version: "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself" (Udanavarga, v. 18). * Jewish version: "What is hateful to yourself do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole of the Torah" (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 31a). * Muslim version: "No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself" (Hadith, Muslim, imam 71-72). Collected by C. Harris, M. Pritchard, and M. Rabins, in Engineering Ethics: Concepts and Cases, second edition (Wadsworth, 2000), p. 86. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 06:33:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEEN4CM000521; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:23:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEEN0xa000465; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:23:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:23:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cB/+BooniJyDR8s4mVy6HAGs8ZO6CDM1v/AW1IlC15VYT0/kP+4Nx9lcZe+vmDxi; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:19:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940271d2cb94b6b13645db70a3a9a3ce062350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <1Z821B.A.9G.CFdWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Maybe your time is before the old carbon element phones where we turned a >crank to ring the phone of whom we were calling and often found that the >noise from the 'mouth piece' element was extreme an higher that our voice >signal? >Since these used an external current (supplied by the hand cranked >generator), I don't think this example really makes your point >very well. Well the voltage came from batteries, the crank was to ring the other persons bell :-) Yes and No. The device was a variable carbon resistor which did indeed change resistance from the sound pressure, yet conditions existed where the transmitter became impacted and of course transmitted sound dropped, yet under some of these conditions the background noise increased many db, which was a signal to hit the transmitter on the table to free the particles. Sound returned and background noise dropped. Yes there are other answers to this, but I also remember using HV low current supply and amplifier on composite carbon resistors to sort out the quite ones for high gain amps. In this case I guess we must assume the glue did not affix to all particles and they were physically moving at some micro level to generate the noise. If I remember correctly the engineers at GTE were serious about this be 'Thermal Noise'. Granted this again was under the HV potential. Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the current view of heat, is it not thought to be a vibration or oscillation of the electrons set in motion by additional energy? If this is correct, would this not then additionally manifest itself in a time varying EM field? >Furthermore, I suspect that the noise you refer to was >primarily generated by graphite particles making and breaking >contact with one another under influence from the voice itself. >IOW no voice -> no noise. However I think I have used such a >device maybe once in my lifetime, so my memory isn't all that good >on that score. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:58 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 07:41:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEFedCN019880; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:40:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEFea47019852; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:40:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:40:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=iRtvmqkQC4l8EopncWQu4pD420ZbPYRt5CPdz6DEQLdSjHUGboTxU/RyYwj3CFbb2RykIeTuNbQl5+yJamxYG19C/Nlr9QUZ6Aq6Nb9eRYbCQb3E0Nmk+CPsaNytaUzu45TRpMpslZNeNvOYU04MO86xHAYfooCtExrTXNP3YEM= ; Message-ID: <20061114154020.89610.qmail web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:40:19 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yesterday I sent the following to vortex-l eskimo.com Yet it was populated --> --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2006 > 11:27:11 -0800 > (PST): > Hi, > [snip] > >Lets simply. Neither experiment A or B have a power > >source except thermal noise. Experiment B radiates > >more power. It is a very simple circuit. Over time, > >more energy is leaving experiment B than experiment > A. > >Therefore experiment B will be colder than experiment A. > Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought that > thermal noise occurred as a consequence of a current > passing through a resistor. A current driven by an external > voltage. I didn't think that resistors actually generated > anything by themselves. Hence, I wouldn't expect either > experiment to radiate anything at all (through the antenna). > (The only radiation I would expect would be normal > thermal radiation, from the body of the resistor, as a > consequence of their being at a specific temperature.) > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Thermal noise is caused by vibrating thermal charges in matter. It's not related to any applied current. The rms voltage of thermal noise is : Vn = (4 K T R dF) ^ 0.5 K is Boltzmann constant, 1.3806503E-023 T is temperature in Kelvin R is resistance dF is bandwidth The total noise power in a matched load circuit is Pt = 4 K T dF Power across the matched load is Pt = 2 K T dF Of course that's not much power, but size is not a factor. So the object could be a nanometer. When you consider trillions of such objects with say 1 THz bandwidth then you are in well in the kilowatt region. 2 * 1.38E-023 * 295 K * 1.00e+12 = 8.142E-009 W 1 trillion such objects = 8.14 KW With just 1 GHz bandwidth, 8.14 W Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 07:51:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEFoZcr003560; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:50:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEFoWfk003506; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:50:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=zho6b0hcLBFyelCwbXOnYGSH3uWcE88BEyE/WYcSXIhfHY1AasV7RH29XVqlG9qw6QAxI/sk33lOe5+mH3VJdNry0kbTVLe4ZrXezYBeNS9gYg6nSGQseMMnETM524oDbLonvI1GM4WjIXV+0/BkXWEdUfPR3Iz6UQETN2oqxv8= ; Message-ID: <20061114155029.61373.qmail web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:50:29 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061114154020.89610.qmail web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Paul wrote: > Yesterday I sent the following to > vortex-l eskimo.com > Yet it was populated --- Paul wrote: > Yesterday I sent the following to > vortex-l eskimo.com > Yet it was populated Excuse me. I meant to say, it did not populate. Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 07:55:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEFsm06007522; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:54:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEFsid9007487; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:54:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:54:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qJfoeViA4ARxvunFry3NOTz9Kg8qCwQoieFju2KFEQnPmIt9mR4hvf9LOJEeTZAbInJt9PQrK4P7fUMD72r93dtdFy+8Ff9eUIUl57PNBt+IXZCKLQbjPE6SnnRQDKhQzbMY8OsuqhlHFn5Aer5YMha1jxqcvOkcIVtNLK6Ofuw= ; Message-ID: <20061114154802.34226.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:48:02 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robin, I had a few comments regarding your conversation with R. Stiffler --> --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to R Stiffler's message of Mon, 13 Nov > 2006 15:13:45 > -0800: > Hi, > [snip] > >Robin! I'm at a loss? > > > >So you are saying that 'Carbon' has 0 {zero} > background radiation? Like it > >is at 0 K' > > No, what I was trying to say was that I didn't think > you could > measure an electrical signal coming from a carbon > resistor (as > opposed to a thermal signal). If you can, and there > is an > electrical signal, then you should be able to > rectify it if you > first pass it through a transformer to adequately > increase the > voltage. You can measure an electrical signal from any electrical resistance caused by thermal noise. It is _extremely_ easy. > >Why can not an object which radiates energy (we > know all thing do) can not > >be fed into an antenna, properly tuned and transmit > energy? > > No antenna needed. The thing itself is already > transmitting (and > receiving) energy at IR frequencies. > I just didn't think this manifested as an electrical > current in > the resistor (and I still don't). http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22thermal+noise%22+%22boltzmann+constant%22&btnG=Google+Search Thermal noise is old fact for EE's. Very simple basic stuff. :-) The white noise voltage signals are there and extend from as low a frequency as you have time to extremely high frequencies. > >Maybe your time is before the old carbon element > phones where we turned a > >crank to ring the phone of whom we were calling and > often found that the > >noise from the 'mouth piece' element was extreme an > higher that our voice > >signal? > > Since these used an external current (supplied by > the hand cranked > generator), I don't think this example really makes > your point > very well. Furthermore, I suspect that the noise you > refer to was > primarily generated by graphite particles making and > breaking > contact with one another under influence from the > voice itself. > IOW no voice -> no noise. However I think I have > used such a > device maybe once in my lifetime, so my memory isn't > all that good > on that score. I just wanted to comment that all electrical resistance generates thermal noise. Some resistors such as Carbon generate more noise than others. Metal film for example is amongst the best as far as quite resistor is concerned. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 08:02:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEG2hTk013378; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:02:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEG2e68013331; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:02:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=azreu7V6gCU+DyRT9EILjhgd3xxd3qLUypBT6zWJJarxsICt4Lg9cpi5kk0j9StOOt7M29jtfDKwFDFFCY24JTqs0y0rXNlbXUUBTpyVRV0tSDK46JRFSfRNSHD7sy5dRcvxKnsV85IZ/M49tRuodvQq/SIppRYIH/77yMEHp64= ; Message-ID: <20061114160236.58553.qmail web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:02:35 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, this is a little annoying. I sent the following email before the other emails, which went through but the following did not. Has anyone experienced this problem? I am using Yahoo email. Maybe Yahoo doesn't want me anymore. :-( I noticed the yahoo email Search is also failing last few weeks. Maybe a good time to switch over to googles GMail. http://mail.google.com Here's my email --> Hi Robin, I had a few comments regarding your conversation with R. Stiffler --> --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to R Stiffler's message of Mon, 13 Nov > 2006 15:13:45 > -0800: > Hi, > [snip] > >Robin! I'm at a loss? > > > >So you are saying that 'Carbon' has 0 {zero} > background radiation? Like it > >is at 0 K' > > No, what I was trying to say was that I didn't think > you could > measure an electrical signal coming from a carbon > resistor (as > opposed to a thermal signal). If you can, and there > is an > electrical signal, then you should be able to > rectify it if you > first pass it through a transformer to adequately > increase the > voltage. You can measure an electrical signal from any electrical resistance caused by thermal noise. It is _extremely_ easy. > >Why can not an object which radiates energy (we > know all thing do) can not > >be fed into an antenna, properly tuned and transmit > energy? > > No antenna needed. The thing itself is already > transmitting (and > receiving) energy at IR frequencies. > I just didn't think this manifested as an electrical > current in > the resistor (and I still don't). http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22thermal+noise%22+%22boltzmann+constant%22&btnG=Google+Search Thermal noise is old fact for EE's. Very simple basic stuff. :-) The white noise voltage signals are there and extend from as low a frequency as you have time to extremely high frequencies. > >Maybe your time is before the old carbon element > phones where we turned a > >crank to ring the phone of whom we were calling and > often found that the > >noise from the 'mouth piece' element was extreme an > higher that our voice > >signal? > > Since these used an external current (supplied by > the hand cranked > generator), I don't think this example really makes > your point > very well. Furthermore, I suspect that the noise you > refer to was > primarily generated by graphite particles making and > breaking > contact with one another under influence from the > voice itself. > IOW no voice -> no noise. However I think I have > used such a > device maybe once in my lifetime, so my memory isn't > all that good > on that score. I just wanted to comment that all electrical resistance generates thermal noise. Some resistors such as Carbon generate more noise than others. Metal film for example is amongst the best as far as quite resistor is concerned. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 09:14:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEHEStf022372; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:14:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEHEN4G022325; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:14:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=nsml9kXBHIgM9R6ClBbuBeBtCM2lgPUWiFsGlJvqWp4SVgcRXazzPuNxAIZKGCvNgxMD8coZXXUgeZUB0KqW/gZAdvU/9auFN7BHPtCcy/KTMUJDVC+oBnKhSI6LlcofjmJHvPTq/cgrR8D6O5+tRaggsVCMilqZDgtwoukV5EY= ; X-YMail-OSG: Kf453V8VM1kvi0Gv9sZNInanOILlmH6.0hUz.tDf8NcGenz6BHEvUML827O5tw9TQaEr97y_Vr4VpTgbG8a3p1slfi6pyHiczlT9bSUw7fpk2phrNXOgq4cn3KgzK9QgqCvIQY8uoJVEkfDzQmfgo65wmCDTp66mMRU- Message-ID: <002e01c70810$50d7fe20$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:14:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The 2nd Law & Electrochem. Status: RO X-Status: Speaking of 2nd Law Violators - and possibly in the context of using a closed-cycle water-splitting and recombination scheme - i.e. electrochemistry+plus, a fellow named Michael Johnson proposed the following: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/test.html which he apparently never tried to construct. It is not an original idea and probably would have violated the 2nd law if it works in the naive form ... but that is unlikely (without help from some other energy source, in addition to ambient heat). Early in the days of electrolytic cold fusion - a nearly identical closed circuit scheme was suggested by many observers, using a proton membrane (ordinary Gore-tex works for this) covering the top of a special CF cell to separate hydrogen (D2) from the mixed effluent, and then to port the separated gases directly to an adjoining fuel-cell (as above), with the reconstituted water being returned in a closed circuit. The hope being that the FC would provide all the current needed by the CF cell - i.e. self-power. I would be surprised if someone did not try that years ago, but they must have never gotten it to self-power as it seems not to have been written-up as such - and it would have made a pretty big splash in the golden-pond of mainstream tranquility. And of course, a similar type of thing, only using a modified "Thermacore cell" along with putative hydrino formation, 'could have been' an early validation for that particular technology - but apparently was never pulled off successfully, even though the well-documented excess heat from that cell was substantial. For this to work - one needs a source of ionization to split more water than the electrical current can do, and mere excess heat is not going to provide that. The next step is pretty clear in theory: radiolysis + electrolysis. A few U and Th compounds are water-soluble: nitrates and sulfates, and one wonders if there is any kind of synergy there with Pd-electrochemistry which would allow not just a continuous closed cycle, but perhaps with some overage to cheaply power your average whatever (nuclear sub?). OK. Now we return to SPAWARS ... and the palladium chloride cell, which is already producing lots of nuclear reactions, but at a rate which is not going to power even a mini torpedo just yet. One suspects that this PdCl cell is not necessarily incompatible with a water soluble radioactive species being added, and in general - that would most definitely seem to be a possible synergetic arrangement for substantial water-splitting. Anyway, enjoy the SPAWARS project while you may :-( because soon, when it all of a sudden it goes "black" and it probably will, as the repercussions of that work are becoming too obvious, then one can assume that someone there has combined heavy water, PdCl and uranyl nitrate (or equivalent water soluble alpha emitter) and has hooked up a recycling arrangement with a fuel cell to give that self-powered cell. Or are convinced from spying on Vo that it is possible. That is the magic step forward - self-power. Certainly not a 2nd Law violator, but an alternative to a dangerous and expensive fission reactor. >From there on - it is only a matter of time before the Navy can cut megabucks off the price tag of a nuclear powered sub. And why else would they be willing to minibuck mainstream-science and sponsor this controversial work -- if there were not that small one-in-a-million chance that this technology could supplant fission? ...and, yes, that is why the Navy, instead of the Army or Air Force is doing it: they are the only military service which actually depends on fission - as a core (p-i)-technology. And like the Russians, we probably have some major "skeletons in the closet" in that regard. Hey --- If we kibitzers on Vortex could spot that basic implementation path for LENR and do it years ago - then the high-powered Pentagon think-tanks have probably just now begun to catch-up. I would say a ten-year lag is the expected price of homage to the mainstream Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 09:56:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEHuAQs032245; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:56:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEHcFCW012810; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:38:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:38:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061114110200.041cbd78 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:09:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Papers from Szpak et al. describing co-deposition and electric fields Status: RO X-Status: Note that there are other publications describing co-deposition and electric fields, such as: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakStheeffecto.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSevidenceof.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 10:11:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEHt6Jx030491; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEHt0Cj030419; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.49.48 (UWA) Message-ID: <455A02EB.2090302 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:54:51 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 14112006 #227926, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (697/061114) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: > ... > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > noise than Metal film resistors.... This is not really true. We may divide the noise sources in Carbon composition resistors into two types: 1) True "Thermal noise" (also called "Johnson" or "Nyquist" noise) which "is the noise generated by the thermal agitation of the charge carriers (the electrons) inside an electrical conductor in equilibrium, which happens regardless of any applied voltage." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise). This noise source is absolutely fundamental and is completely unvarying regardless of type of resistor, and its power sourcing capability is completely unvarying regardless of value of resistance, number in parallel/series, size, etc. It is simply 4kT watts per Hz of bandwidth. (The bandwidth presumably goes up to some very high limit determined by the mean free path of the electrons being scattered in the resistive conductor). 2) Excess noise (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_noise) - which is generated by current passing through the resistor and may well be due to thermal (or thermally induced microphonic) effects, but is not rightly referred to as thermal noise (at least amongst physicists). It is readily overcome with better technology. The excess noise present in a carbon composition resistor is produced by random effects driven by the power fed in and will only be a very small fraction of this applied power - ie very far from overunity! With regard to Johnson noise, if you short or open the resistor, then the entire 4kT watts generated is simply dissipated back into the sourcing resistor as heat and there is no net power flow. If you load it with a matched resistance then you can draw off half of this power, but if the resistor you load it with is at the same temperature, then it also generates this same power back in the first resistor and again there is no net power flow. Coupling to it via a transformer is no different to using a different value of resistor as the source - the voltage to current ratio changes but the power available remains constant. Similarly connecting many such resistors in series or parallel simply changes the impedance (or voltage to current ratio) without changing the available power. A diode is not of course a very good switch and has a gently changing V/I slope (ie impedance) near zero bias. Thus it must also generate Johnson noise by the same mechanism (whenever there is a path for electrical power to be dissipated as heat, then there is the reverse path in which the heat bath can generate electrical power - this is called the "fluctuation dissipation theorem" in physics). Presumably this noise power source/sink will vary slightly in impedance with the voltage/current fluctuations - but I am sure nature will have organised it such that no configuration you can dream up will allow net power to be generated from thermal energy! If a cold resistor and a hot resistor are connected through electrically conducting wires which are perfectly thermally isolating (if such things existed), then thermal energy will flow electrically from the hot resistor to the cold resistor until they become the same temperature. However this is no more exciting (and much slower) than simply providing a thermal conduction path. What is more interesting is that you can synthesize a "cold" resistor from a low-noise op-amp and room temperature resistors and actually "chill" a remote warm resistor (or more usefully a mechanical system coupled through a transducer) electrically. This is called "cold damping". Of course the power to refrigerate or pump heat from the warm system to the synthesised cold one is coming from the op-amp power supply. With modern op-amps you can synthesise a resistor with a temperature of less than 1 Kelvin! (if I remember rightly). > Preface: Radiation resistance generates no thermal > noise. I would guess that the best you could do with any antenna pointing into deep space would be to pick up the 2.7 K microwave background - which would probably be indistinguishable from 2.7K thermal noise being generated in the radiation resistance seen via the antenna. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 10:35:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEIYq4q005925; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:34:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEIYoug005889; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:34:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Qhy9WbbQNExAD0DL/DmzH6sXcR/+OR58AIS13nCpGthXd0FOTfzHsWf4IDYfnIjU; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:34:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <455A02EB.2090302 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400d94131b802b39d903c1f8a47ed4a9d3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <79Wvg.A.5bB.JxgWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I guess his mail is getting messed up, the comments you make reference to were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. Thanks anyway... -----Original Message----- From: John Winterflood [mailto:jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:55 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect R Stiffler wrote: > ... > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > noise than Metal film resistors.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 11:32:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEJVsJH025144; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEJVqq5025104; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=C3wr5YrXxEKH4P5Y2cBShZnJUGjcGQzipOpzmaF1gjED/sTXilMQMkvaYenSgoDpFy4u8LbAKiPzzFHF0rOzDjf5MC1qKV4B+NMpcuxysO1HxRz/C27Veghl5yi5euIoH5VvI5WAF4WHIDfZlB4/sxB0yRHEv4rt929Whoeqb3g= ; Message-ID: <20061114193146.66343.qmail web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <455A02EB.2090302 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7VAIXC.A.KIG.omhWFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- John Winterflood wrote: > R Stiffler wrote: > > ... > > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > > noise than Metal film resistors.... > > This is not really true. We may divide the noise > sources in Carbon > composition resistors into two types: > > 1) True "Thermal noise" (also called "Johnson" or > "Nyquist" noise) which > "is the noise generated by the thermal agitation of > the charge carriers > (the electrons) inside an electrical conductor in > equilibrium, which > happens regardless of any applied voltage." (From > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise). This > noise source is > absolutely fundamental and is completely unvarying > regardless of type of > resistor, Actually that's not true. Radiation resistance generates no thermal noise. > and its power sourcing capability is > completely unvarying > regardless of value of resistance, number in > parallel/series, size, etc. > It is simply 4kT watts per Hz of bandwidth. (The > bandwidth presumably > goes up to some very high limit determined by the > mean free path of the > electrons being scattered in the resistive > conductor). > > 2) Excess noise (see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_noise) - which > is generated by current passing through the resistor > and may well be due > to thermal (or thermally induced microphonic) > effects, but is not > rightly referred to as thermal noise (at least > amongst physicists). It > is readily overcome with better technology. The > excess noise present in > a carbon composition resistor is produced by random > effects driven by > the power fed in and will only be a very small > fraction of this applied > power - ie very far from overunity! Personally I do not adhere to the term, overunity. Nonetheless, the antenna connected to a carbon resistor does indeed radiate more power than an antenna connected to a metal film resistor. > With regard to Johnson noise, if you short or open > the resistor, then > the entire 4kT watts generated is simply dissipated > back into the > sourcing resistor Assuming you disregard black body radiation. > as heat and there is no net power > flow. If you load > it with a matched resistance then you can draw off > half of this power, > but if the resistor you load it with is at the same > temperature, then it > also generates this same power back in the first > resistor and again > there is no net power flow. > > Coupling to it via a transformer is no different to > using a different > value of resistor as the source - the voltage to > current ratio changes > but the power available remains constant. Similarly > connecting many > such resistors in series or parallel simply changes > the impedance (or > voltage to current ratio) without changing the > available power. The idea is connecting it to an antenna, not a transformer. Also more power is indeed radiated by duplicating such devices. Size is irrelevant with respect to power output. So each device could be a nanometer. You could have a trillion of such nano devices. [snip] > > Preface: Radiation resistance generates no thermal > > noise. > > I would guess that the best you could do with any > antenna pointing into > deep space would be to pick up the 2.7 K microwave > background - which > would probably be indistinguishable from 2.7K > thermal noise being > generated in the radiation resistance seen via the > antenna. True, the antenna could pick up anything within its bandwidth. Fact still remains radiation resistance generates no thermal noise. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for? http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 11:38:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEJcMeg030051; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:38:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEJcK9q030029; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:38:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:38:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=S7L7rJPWEYFKrxKWKJ57f+f8LzZEfmQnESR9qf2YJwhMDnuVjttP14DWIXzvdSRL/9a+YXY33XekGdsEV95JXMwpNQFDUTw8dMycXEIpm2ugtRyHc+KVk0YEhn9u+gxH5V0De/XuklcP2d+rbWpoLs+7ZdnHXB7Idv9hWopI+Hc= ; Message-ID: <20061114193811.18388.qmail web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Indeed, it seems everything I touch lately is performing highly unusual. People report that my MEMM wiki doesn't fully load. Certain posts at overunity.com don't post. Maybe it's the MIB, <<>> Just trying to lighten up, as I'm really getting frustrating over this whole trip lately. Regards, Paul Lowrance --- R Stiffler wrote: > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the comments > you make reference to > were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. > > Thanks anyway... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Winterflood > [mailto:jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au] > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:55 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is > incorrect > > > R Stiffler wrote: > > ... > > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > > noise than Metal film resistors.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 11:54:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAEJsRcZ013033; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:54:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAEJsPsg013004; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:54:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:54:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nldtN0i7ZdqLpB9/YWMtI2aF0OccOdK0/KHAxd9q4ih0N68E1AyWrq/a8eUhNQkE; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:54:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20061114193811.18388.qmail web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940217cd01d775f366b6baa9534d8a9c7e1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul, this is far of subject (?) but it is of interest and will warm the hearts of the MIB fearful, (which I am). We began to notice strange things with email and an associate with great internet talent offered to help. (This was 2 years ago). He was able to trace our mail going through a US Military Server in Germany? Now I do not want to start INet rumors or get people all excited with something that I can not today provide proof of, yet the problem left when all routing later switched through VA. Funny :-) but not funny... Those of you at Carnivore, Raptor and Chameleon have fun, because I stopped making sense long ago. -----Original Message----- From: Paul [mailto:softwarelabus yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:38 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Indeed, it seems everything I touch lately is performing highly unusual. People report that my MEMM wiki doesn't fully load. Certain posts at overunity.com don't post. Maybe it's the MIB, <<>> Just trying to lighten up, as I'm really getting frustrating over this whole trip lately. Regards, Paul Lowrance --- R Stiffler wrote: > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the comments > you make reference to > were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. > > Thanks anyway... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Winterflood > [mailto:jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au] > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:55 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is > incorrect > > > R Stiffler wrote: > > ... > > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > > noise than Metal film resistors.... ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 13 18:53:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAE2qiAN029117; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:52:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAE2ke7h024669; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:46:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:46:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=lUbEs2m75PpyFooCuAGvfICV3PPbf1NKEPb25pawz2EAIyaA2HIlnj1JBtl01gT+Ml/XAXcPtNWJqyBPTB4ujfNjtFfpWgge2wenArgBFR4+RL+nm14nBSdvlE+vjKzZwcrT1djBxhqQCwc+WQsEfAEiLsftctJ4egBFfh3dFlo= ; X-YMail-OSG: JX42kr4VM1mUmVxQ0QfuMXfZW2elQqdIzH.b8WBdiDj3V4wD_uQVN__ODSoFDfo9p1qmbXhr0YvN6HUcP5a8gyHuSxn16qDLvAukqidR2MaFOPfznmkKPQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20061113214016.00ba7d58 pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:41:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? In-Reply-To: <000901c70775$273807e0$6cd9163f DFBGQZ91> References: <2.2.32.20061112142922.00ddc390 pop.freeserve.net> <002001c7066d$e9b45520$6401a8c0 NuDell> <6.1.1.1.1.20061112102529.00ba7d48 pop> <000901c70775$273807e0$6cd9163f DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Sorry - that was Big Bobby Clobber's line - the resident hockey player on the Royal Canadian Air Farce: "Do unto others before they do unto you." P. At 05:43 PM 11/13/2006 -0500, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" >To: >Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:23 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Give Mel a Break? > > >>Would all follow this law, we would be admitted into the Galactic >>Federation. Until then, we are considered unintelligent. > >Unless the Galactic Federation (or locally most advanced interstellar >species) subscribes to Pellegrino/Zebrowski's version of the >"relativistic" Golden Rule: > >"Do unto others as they would do unto you, and do it first." ;) > >--Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 16:16:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF0FutZ032326; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:16:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAENrTu7009281; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:53:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:53:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=moTEaRNauZUJn+RRrqN+lr6LcA96ALBKIUNb8rQhwX7P+fmHr/jR3gL3GB7AAp6dx+AmjdenSKErYrYNVqgWsxRs7/tI6HlnMdaQjlS12TvgVSEr1+RapdNN5WOAozz6YGAnuHWDvoxou8ZBYmbYn/Q9gUHQgxx7YVtu+aI+W08= ; Message-ID: <20061114235307.13370.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:53:06 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Dr. Ronald R. Stiffler, Some time ago I posted at overunity.com that I narrowed down a constant successful hack attempt on my personal computer to the country of Germany. Understandably the government will *not* prohibit any advanced technology or physics theory in public hands for security issues. It seems they are a little afraid of terrorists and rogue countries such as Iran and N.Korea. Good thing my research is not about advanced technology. I completely understand their POV. It's my goal to spread the research information and ignite enough interest so the research will survive and continue. Regards, Paul Lowrance --- R Stiffler wrote: > Paul, this is far of subject (?) but it is of > interest and will warm the > hearts of the MIB fearful, (which I am). > > We began to notice strange things with email and an > associate with great > internet talent offered to help. (This was 2 years > ago). He was able to > trace our mail going through a US Military Server in > Germany? > > Now I do not want to start INet rumors or get people > all excited with > something that I can not today provide proof of, yet > the problem left when > all routing later switched through VA. > > Funny :-) but not funny... > > Those of you at Carnivore, Raptor and Chameleon have > fun, because I stopped > making sense long ago. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul [mailto:softwarelabus yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:38 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is > incorrect > > > Indeed, it seems everything I touch lately is > performing highly unusual. People report that my > MEMM > wiki doesn't fully load. Certain posts at > overunity.com don't post. Maybe it's the MIB, > <<>> > > Just trying to lighten up, as I'm really getting > frustrating over this whole trip lately. > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > --- R Stiffler wrote: > > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the > comments > > you make reference to > > were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. > > > > Thanks anyway... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Winterflood > > [mailto:jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:55 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is > > incorrect > > > > > > R Stiffler wrote: > > > ... > > > Carbon resistors generate more thermal voltage > > > noise than Metal film resistors.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 16:45:10 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF0imSn018283; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:44:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF0iil5018234; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:44:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:44:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hojMzHAwAn29pF+B3PxALtSSe1d0wgAbNcS//W7q7vsNIKpK6hGvRBCPNdPJyTlP; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Dr. Stiffler" To: Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:44:17 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: c422b09fa182ebd4c8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c2609854df45a179938b3c8f9753c26933883387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Status: RO X-Status: I have a question for the group and will follow up with additional coverage of the research that brings questions like these to the forefront. Assume (2) 150mL Pyrex lab beakers filled with distilled, de-ionized water. Seal both tops of the beakers with Al foil to reduce evaporation. Place one beaker in the center of a ring magnet (we used ones taken from audio woofers), the rating of which is not relevant at this point. Place the second beaker at least a meter from the beaker and the ring magnet. Now let both sit undisturbed for 24 hours. Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach equilibrium with ambient. Additionally the beaker within the magnet has a white precipitate where the other one does not. Before I go further, has anyone done anything similar? *I do not subscribe to the effects of magnetic field on pure water, yet I now have question on that understanding. Thanks... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 17:03:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF13Vxk008167; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:03:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF13Uqk008140; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:03:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:03:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000401c70851$d1a6a100$c9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:03:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Status: RO X-Status: Dr. Stiffler wrote, >I have a question for the group and will follow up with additional coverage > of the research that brings questions like these to the forefront. > > Assume (2) 150mL Pyrex lab beakers filled with distilled, de-ionized > water. > Seal both tops of the beakers with Al foil to reduce evaporation. Place > one > beaker in the center of a ring magnet (we used ones taken from audio > woofers), the rating of which is not relevant at this point. > > Place the second beaker at least a meter from the beaker and the ring > magnet. Now let both sit undisturbed for 24 hours. > > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the center of the > ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with ambient temperature (yet the > magnet itself does). The beaker that is one meter away from the other > setup, > does reach equilibrium with ambient. > > Additionally the beaker within the magnet has a white precipitate where > the > other one does not. > > Before I go further, has anyone done anything similar? > > *I do not subscribe to the effects of magnetic field on pure water, yet I > now have question on that understanding. > > Thanks... Howdy Stiffler, Much studies around including some pretty far out stuff in the " ORMUS" areas. WE have a research test setup at our Weimar Texas shop. Our next series of tests will start a log on the use of magnets and solenoids both for flows and water vortex studies. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 17:30:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF1HPeK027420; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF1HHP8027249; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CJpowCZlEMm7k38k+wcQ8k1Am5CoFtPbvD82VFCrCytVlAG+DEWi84qEwHGUwd2R; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "RStiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:17:01 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000401c70851$d1a6a100$c9037841 xptower> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e911b38e984cb66b3c1a124502c5d130350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Interesting. I have read much of what is on the net and a ton of old texts, yet my work was an off shoot of the effects a magnetic field might have on electrolysis. Should I receive an invitation and I can slip away from the bandits and bootleggers, it might be interesting to compare notes. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:03 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Dr. Stiffler wrote, >I have a question for the group and will follow up with additional coverage > of the research that brings questions like these to the forefront. > > Assume (2) 150mL Pyrex lab beakers filled with distilled, de-ionized > water. > Seal both tops of the beakers with Al foil to reduce evaporation. Place > one > beaker in the center of a ring magnet (we used ones taken from audio > woofers), the rating of which is not relevant at this point. > > Place the second beaker at least a meter from the beaker and the ring > magnet. Now let both sit undisturbed for 24 hours. > > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the center of the > ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with ambient temperature (yet the > magnet itself does). The beaker that is one meter away from the other > setup, > does reach equilibrium with ambient. > > Additionally the beaker within the magnet has a white precipitate where > the > other one does not. > > Before I go further, has anyone done anything similar? > > *I do not subscribe to the effects of magnetic field on pure water, yet I > now have question on that understanding. > > Thanks... Howdy Stiffler, Much studies around including some pretty far out stuff in the " ORMUS" areas. WE have a research test setup at our Weimar Texas shop. Our next series of tests will start a log on the use of magnets and solenoids both for flows and water vortex studies. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 18:38:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF2c9sc012320; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:38:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF2c5sJ012270; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:38:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:38:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=45yNDSSSnBGl3DRqeI8K9Pkgn8aGMFaAZZUhtIaTTUrWUlh4XOydtaU1WJdTH9EldAxrHaQDk/wfKimafyiifY63cx1ER80lhgJtQ5YlNYCSW0Y1vJ5hL3mEYy9pjdio6vsRTSJej4xmb4ntvH+6a5rAOTsNX6ZUzoCfNRuRAxY= ; X-YMail-OSG: lQEKGpoVM1nyPbN6gi_GrmwWqhGvtYiZSVB7jFwMyLMEQ0KmLyf6P__IcGS2JOUY17KTfQZjOOeMcP7L1R_A7YkZfdF.Wo4ImiXlsDxspUNE47XfkFL3ww-- Message-ID: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:37:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Stiffler" > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the > center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with > ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker > that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach > equilibrium with ambient. Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is always less than ambient? The implication would be that the magnet provides some extra "structure", and structure is generally indicative an anti-entropic ordering, so there is some energy withdrawn from ambient which is tied up in the ordering itself ? I say "extra" structure because liquid water has plenty of hidden structure already, but there is debate on what that structure consists of. Older textbooks used to say there is base-level hidden sea of tetrahedrons - little pyramids with triangular bases, formed when each water molecule connects to four others. The hexagon doesn't show until phase change. That old notion is likely incorrect, according to Martin Chaplin's fine web site on water and he goes into great detail about macro-structures. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ Here is his page on electric and magnetic effects of water: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 20:32:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF4Wc2M026490; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:32:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF4Was0026465; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.157.89 (UWA) Message-ID: <455A985A.9000601 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:26 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l " eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: <20061114193146.66343.qmail web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061114193146.66343.qmail web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 15112006 #228005, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (697/061114) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the comments you > make reference to were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. My mistake - sorry about that. Your formatting (without caretted indenting) together with my sloppy editing caused that. Paul wrote: > ... Radiation resistance > generates no thermal noise. That may be true but the argument would be entirely semantic. The exact same process of "fluctuation-dissipation" occurs and once some thermal power has been dissipated by an antenna, then noise with thermal characteristics comes back in via your antenna and looks identical to a warm resistor generating Johnson noise. One might likewise argue that a resistor itself generates no thermal noise (since in a zero degree K thermal bath it certainly doesn't) and blame the effect on something going on in the resistor with another name - eg brownian motion of the electrons or something, but again that would just be semantics. The fact remains that whatever mechanism is available to _dissipate_ electrical power into the radiation resistance of the aether, must also act in reverse to produce electrical _fluctuations_ from the energy previously or similarly dissipated (hence the "dissipation-fluctuation theorem"). Once equilibrium with the surroundings is reached, the power flowing from a warm resistor to a warm environment via an antenna will be exactly equal to the power flowing back from the warm environment to the warm resistor. In order to have no thermal noise being sourced into a circuit from an antenna, one would have to locate it so that its entire visible environment was at absolute zero (which is very similar to what is required for a resistor to generate no thermal noise). > ... the antenna connected to a carbon > resistor does indeed radiate more power than an > antenna connected to a metal film resistor. Only if you provide power in the form of a current through the carbon resistor to get the flicker mechanism oscillating (see the wikipedia flicker noise reference I offered previously). But then a powered integrated RF oscillator connected to an antenna will radiate even more power than a powered carbon resistor! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 20:41:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF4fBdZ002659; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:41:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF4f7sK002582; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:41:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:41:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:49:56 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water In-reply-to: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611141949.56454.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 14 November 2006 20:37, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Stiffler" > > > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the > > center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with > > ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker > > that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach > > equilibrium with ambient. > > Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is > always less than ambient? > > The implication would be that the magnet provides some extra > "structure", and structure is generally indicative an > anti-entropic ordering, so there is some energy withdrawn from > ambient which is tied up in the ordering itself ? > > I say "extra" structure because liquid water has plenty of hidden > structure already, but there is debate on what that structure > consists of. Older textbooks used to say there is base-level > hidden sea of tetrahedrons - little pyramids with triangular > bases, formed when each water molecule connects to four others. > The hexagon doesn't show until phase change. That old notion is > likely incorrect, according to Martin Chaplin's fine web site on > water and he goes into great detail about macro-structures. > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ > > Here is his page on electric and magnetic effects of water: > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html > > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. > > Jones A little qual and quant analyses might be in order here, especially if the precipitate is reproducable. It would help immensely to know just what that white precipitate is if only to eliminate endless speculation. By the way, distilled water may still have solutes in it in small quantities, and glasswear might not be scrupulousely clean. Use 'USP' distilled water instead of ordinary 'distilled' water from the supermarket. A bit more expensive but lends the essential reproducability. YeeGadd, I'm sounding like my old quantitative professor from my days at university. Also clean out the glasswear with an acid-dichromate solution and rinse with some of the USP water. Use gloves and goggles with the acid-dichromate solution. You may or may not be able to get that solution, or even USP water due to the present legal climate around the world unless you are in Africa which is free-er in places....or in Russia. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 20:55:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF4tdDA014476; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:55:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF4hrWr004483; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:43:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.157.89 (UWA) Message-ID: <455A9B00.9000202 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:43:44 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: <20061114193146.66343.qmail web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061114193146.66343.qmail web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 15112006 #228005, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (697/061114) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R Stiffler wrote: > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the comments you > make reference to were by Paul Lowrance and not myself. My mistake - sorry about that. Your formatting (without caretted indenting) together with my sloppy editing was the cause. Paul wrote: > ... Radiation resistance > generates no thermal noise. That may be true but the argument would be entirely semantic. The exact same process of "fluctuation-dissipation" occurs and once some thermal power has been dissipated by an antenna, then noise with thermal characteristics comes back in via your antenna and looks identical to a warm resistor generating Johnson noise. One might likewise argue that a resistor itself generates no thermal noise (since in a zero degree K thermal bath it certainly doesn't) and blame the effect on something going on in the resistor with another name - eg brownian motion of the electrons or something - but again that would just be semantics. The fact remains that whatever mechanism is available to _dissipate_ electrical power into the radiation resistance of the aether, must also act in reverse to produce electrical _fluctuations_ from the energy previously or similarly dissipated (hence the "_dissipation-fluctuation_ theorem"). Once equilibrium with the surroundings is reached, the power flowing from a warm resistor to a warm environment via an antenna will be exactly equal to the power flowing back from the warm environment to the warm resistor. In order to have no thermal noise being sourced into a circuit from an antenna, one would have to locate it so that its entire visible environment was at absolute zero (which is very similar to what is required for a resistor to generate no thermal noise). > ... the antenna connected to a carbon > resistor does indeed radiate more power than an > antenna connected to a metal film resistor. Only if you provide power in the form of a current through the carbon resistor to get the flicker mechanism oscillating (see the wikipedia flicker noise reference I offered previously). But then a powered integrated RF oscillator connected to an antenna will radiate even more power than a powered carbon resistor! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 14 22:24:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF6NumY021950; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:23:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF6NqHf021896; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:23:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:23:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:23:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7bbll2hiu1et5ooqpuls9ftumbume2pfab 4ax.com> References: <455A02EB.2090302@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <455A02EB.2090302 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:23:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAF6NgWw021688 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Winterflood's message of Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:54:51 +0800: Hi, [snip] >With regard to Johnson noise, if you short or open the resistor, then >the entire 4kT watts generated is simply dissipated back into the >sourcing resistor as heat and there is no net power flow. If you load >it with a matched resistance then you can draw off half of this power, >but if the resistor you load it with is at the same temperature, then it >also generates this same power back in the first resistor and again >there is no net power flow. > >Coupling to it via a transformer is no different to using a different >value of resistor as the source - the voltage to current ratio changes >but the power available remains constant. Similarly connecting many >such resistors in series or parallel simply changes the impedance (or >voltage to current ratio) without changing the available power. It isn't the transformer that is meant to have an effect. It's the diode. > >A diode is not of course a very good switch and has a gently changing >V/I slope (ie impedance) near zero bias. Which is precisely why you put the transformer in between. That shifts the voltage up the curve of the diode away from the zero bias point. However you would need an incredible transformer ratio, and the resulting minute current on the diode side may be "lost" in the noise of the diode. This depends somewhat on whether or not these purported signals from the resistor can be "ganged" together. Since they would have random phase relative to one another, they would likely at least on occasion enhance one another leading to a "spike" that might be transformed and rectified. >Thus it must also generate >Johnson noise by the same mechanism (whenever there is a path for >electrical power to be dissipated as heat, then there is the reverse >path in which the heat bath can generate electrical power - this is >called the "fluctuation dissipation theorem" in physics). Presumably >this noise power source/sink will vary slightly in impedance with the >voltage/current fluctuations The transformer "transforms" the impedances, so that there is a deliberate mismatch between resistor and diode. >- but I am sure nature will have organised >it such that no configuration you can dream up will allow net power to >be generated from thermal energy! A solar cell already does this, it just operates at a higher "ambient" temperature. Its built in diode, acts like a 0 K heat sink. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 00:24:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF8EYrZ022354; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:14:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF8EULB022300; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:14:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ElF+2HYbJhMF9WMLoNaVKKi2P6U72geylJYfjsflW7fzbbTfWvUgJ2wJfp+sAQY0; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006113158141433 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:14:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dba576cd7e4b5d4c2e5999119970532b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.156 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Doyle Buehler's Capacitor Experiments suggest that a high concentration of Negative (electron) Charge effects the most Inertial Mass Cancellation (IMC). Note the concentration (negative charge density) IMC results from the 100 Kilovolts on the small ball, or the smaller two-plate capacitor (about 25 kilovolts/cm^2). http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf The two-plate capacitor IMC is about half these values. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Doyle Buehler's Capacitor Experiments suggest that a high
concentration of Negative (electron) Charge effects the most
Inertial Mass Cancellation (IMC).
 
Note the  concentration (negative charge density)
IMC results from the 100 Kilovolts on the small ball, or the
smaller two-plate capacitor (about 25 kilovolts/cm^2).
 
 
The two-plate capacitor IMC is about half these values.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 01:13:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAF9D8r5011790; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:13:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAF9D7Ci011773; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:13:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:13:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.157.89 (UWA) Message-ID: <455ADA04.1070807 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:12:36 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: <455A02EB.2090302@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <7bbll2hiu1et5ooqpuls9ftumbume2pfab@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7bbll2hiu1et5ooqpuls9ftumbume2pfab 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 15112006 #228034, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (698/061115) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> A diode is not of course a very good switch and has a gently >> changing V/I slope (ie impedance) near zero bias. > > Which is precisely why you put the transformer in between. That > shifts the voltage up the curve of the diode away from the zero > bias point. Bear in mind that we are talking of AC (noise) voltages so one cannot expect to work with any DC bias. Also a diode has an exponential V/I relationship (Shockley equation) and so with appropriate scaling I believe it can be considered to work just as well in a high impedance circuit with zero bias as it does in a low impedance circuit when biased to the 0.65 volt so-called "knee" (which value is entirely dependent on the scale on which you choose to plot the exponential - scale the axes in microamps and millivolts instead of volts and milliamps and the "knee" moves down to zero). > However you would need an incredible transformer ratio, > and the resulting minute current on the diode side may be > "lost" in the noise of the diode. This depends somewhat > on whether or not these purported signals ... There is no "purported"-ness about these signals. It is a standard experiment performed by 3rd year physics students to measure this noise voltage and from it determine absolute temperatures (to ~4 digits with ~hours of integration), or knowing a single temperature, to determine Boltzmann's constant from the noise voltage. > ... from the resistor can be "ganged" > together. Since they would have random phase relative to one > another, they would likely at least on occasion enhance one > another leading to a "spike" that might be transformed and > rectified. My point was that a transformer provides nothing that simply choosing a different valued resistor would provide. A high value resistor gives high voltage with low current but still only 4kT watts per Hz of bandwidth. Similarly ganging resistors together provides nothing different from what a single resistor would with the same value as the ganged set. (There is a small difference - and that is how well the resistor is heat sunk or connected to the heat bath - but for the power flows under discussion better connection to the heat source/sink is hardly an issue!) >> Thus it must also generate Johnson noise by the same >> mechanism (whenever there is a path for electrical power to >> be dissipated as heat, then there is the reverse path in >> which the heat bath can generate electrical power - this is >> called the "fluctuation dissipation theorem" in physics). >> Presumably this noise power source/sink will vary slightly >> in impedance with the voltage/current fluctuations > > The transformer "transforms" the impedances, so that there > is a deliberate mismatch between resistor and diode. I think you missed my meaning - the exponential V/I relationship (Shockley equation) of the diode means that it will behave just like a resistor who's resistance (or impedance) varies (only minutely with thermal level I&V) as the voltage or current in it varies. This is after all what provides the rectification effect - current in the forward direction sees the diode as a much lower valued resistor than current in the reverse direction. It is just possible that this effect could produce some net cohering of the statistical fluctuations. But like I said, I doubt if nature would make it that easy to beat its second law! >> - but I am sure nature will have organised >> it such that no configuration you can dream up will >> allow net power to be generated from thermal energy! > > A solar cell already does this, it just operates at a > higher "ambient" temperature. A steam engine also works well when you have a significant temperature difference - such as that between the surface of the sun and the ambient on earth. But beating the 2nd law requires that it work without a temperature difference - ie turn random thermal energy into ordered electrical energy which can then be used to say heat an isolated resistor above ambient while slightly cooling the ambient heat bath in the process. > Its built in diode, acts like a 0 K heat sink. More like a 300 K heat sink! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 07:48:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFFegAb017977; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:48:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFEpMMB026436; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:51:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:51:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=e+Dqc4CCaQHRZArZjzcgVwLroo95/0niu8yKrIegkegUo30qNQcX23o+5Fnm9X+x; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:46:41 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bdf285afac6cb1f778d30ded7250c481350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is >>always less than ambient? That is correct and over a number of tests varied in the range of (-.5 to -1.6) C' below ambient. I did of course assure that this was just not a location anomaly. The last series was conducted in a fume hood with vents off. >>As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from >>the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower >>surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the >>surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. Yes, after you mentioned this I looked back and indeed these beakers were used in some prior electrolysis work with electrolyte containing Boron. You may have answered the whole question "Poor Lab Work" Yet the temperature difference is my prime interest and must start with new glassware and will know by the weekend if indeed this is where it's coming from, then? -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:38 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Stiffler" > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the > center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with > ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker > that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach > equilibrium with ambient. Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is always less than ambient? The implication would be that the magnet provides some extra "structure", and structure is generally indicative an anti-entropic ordering, so there is some energy withdrawn from ambient which is tied up in the ordering itself ? I say "extra" structure because liquid water has plenty of hidden structure already, but there is debate on what that structure consists of. Older textbooks used to say there is base-level hidden sea of tetrahedrons - little pyramids with triangular bases, formed when each water molecule connects to four others. The hexagon doesn't show until phase change. That old notion is likely incorrect, according to Martin Chaplin's fine web site on water and he goes into great detail about macro-structures. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ Here is his page on electric and magnetic effects of water: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 09:45:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFHivGU016970; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:44:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFHinMN016869; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:44:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:44:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BkxHOXR0EXC5P8TOW90vTFzDA83CBa2aWOP27GK8mhJKvXbE8IXeY2AxbZWSpz31SdLuS1vRaNyP8B6Yxx9yQF6gAGFzAdr5pUpFJryG1+dEUX70Hjd4zpa4ie1eTk7uCmBCok/O+2I8ELz4F3C7JjABXTf78yH68QZFIvKSVB4= ; Message-ID: <20061115143347.54991.qmail web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:33:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <455A985A.9000601 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Winterflood wrote: > R Stiffler wrote: > > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the > comments you > > make reference to were by Paul Lowrance and not > myself. > > My mistake - sorry about that. Your formatting > (without > caretted indenting) together with my sloppy editing > caused > that. > > Paul wrote: > > ... Radiation resistance > > generates no thermal noise. > > That may be true but the argument would be entirely > semantic. > The exact same process of "fluctuation-dissipation" > occurs > and once some thermal power has been dissipated by > an > antenna, then noise with thermal characteristics > comes back > in via your antenna and looks identical to a warm > resistor > generating Johnson noise. It sounds like you are saying the antenna receives the same amount of radiation as it radiates. That is not true. I provided two examples. One with carbon resistor and another with metal film resistor. The antenna will receive the same amount of radiation in both experiments, but the antenna with carbon resistor will radiate more energy than the metal film resistor at room temperature. In a nutshell, we have to antennas at room temperature, both receive the same amount of radiation energy, but the antenna connected to carbon resistor radiates more energy. The experiment with carbon resistor will get colder than the experiment with metal film resistor. > One might likewise argue that a resistor itself > generates no > thermal noise (since in a zero degree K thermal bath > it > certainly doesn't) and blame the effect on something > going > on in the resistor with another name - eg brownian > motion of > the electrons or something, but again that would > just be > semantics. I really don't see it that way. The carbon resistor is made of atoms containing charged particles. The noise is relative to the temperature of the charged particles. > The fact remains that whatever mechanism is > available to > _dissipate_ electrical power into the radiation > resistance > of the aether, must also act in reverse to produce > electrical > _fluctuations_ from the energy previously or > similarly > dissipated (hence the "dissipation-fluctuation > theorem"). That's possible, but if Aether generates noise given the frequency range as compared to carbon resistors then it is so infinitesimal that no scientist has measured such noise, that I am aware of. > Once equilibrium with the surroundings is reached, > the power > flowing from a warm resistor to a warm environment > via an > antenna will be exactly equal to the power flowing > back from > the warm environment to the warm resistor. That's true; i.e., the carbon resistor will reach equilibrium at a colder temperature. Regardless, that is a source of energy. [snip] > > ... the antenna connected to a carbon > > resistor does indeed radiate more power than an > > antenna connected to a metal film resistor. > > Only if you provide power in the form of a current > through > the carbon resistor to get the flicker mechanism > oscillating > (see the wikipedia flicker noise reference I offered > previously). Why are you interject flicker noise with this example? It's thermal noise. > But then a powered integrated RF > oscillator > connected to an antenna will radiate even more power > than > a powered carbon resistor! I'm uncertain why, but it seems you are interjecting irrelevant information, which merely draws attention away from the fact that --> A carbon resistor at room temperature connected to an antenna will radiate more energy than a similar setup using metal film resistor. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Get a free Motorola Razr! Today Only! Choose Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, Alltel, or T-Mobile. http://www.letstalk.com/inlink.htm?to=592913 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 11:02:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFIoh4q022341; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:02:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFHQwUQ022796; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:26:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:26:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=vRwJLzXD2BMzG1sj9HssGvo4pp9OZhZ+gUeBEVDY91Y9MCDpFS4xoHrn5f5Nawm5SNbzRgN6FQr9JTjTn78k79g8gL9IjxdBmOexiD9NOYz/11iEgt+N1yxH7Sj5foTliyZlmwWoXckp1U3eyEvDf7QHMbQ/t2wfH3Dn8S99OD4= ; Message-ID: <007b01c708d7$46461f60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:58:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What E.T. sees first Status: O X-Status: Extra-crispy or extra-greasy ? http://michaelcastellon.blogspot.com/2006/11/kfcs-logo-first-to-be-seen-from-space.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 11:02:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFIoh4s022341; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:02:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFGZssf010885; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:35:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:35:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dYULwggQ8TgWFkaPX0uZQIZYxuQOe32Uih1ssQYIkqlnU12vytnxcYPSwuPKqWc71tZbWPDFX7PNX9ThTPQdQKUwMcMMSxToc0MaQCj/dRlCUgvsFXESSwMCpN8ztK7k6EhzT1wgh34+HHY09fkSXHeRBgge3CYjbS1WM/nfDaY= ; Message-ID: <20061115163547.56166.qmail web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:35:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061114154020.89610.qmail web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 2nd attempt to email: --- John Winterflood wrote: > R Stiffler wrote: > > I guess his mail is getting messed up, the > comments you > > make reference to were by Paul Lowrance and not > myself. > > My mistake - sorry about that. Your formatting > (without > caretted indenting) together with my sloppy editing > caused > that. > > Paul wrote: > > ... Radiation resistance > > generates no thermal noise. > > That may be true but the argument would be entirely > semantic. > The exact same process of "fluctuation-dissipation" > occurs > and once some thermal power has been dissipated by > an > antenna, then noise with thermal characteristics > comes back > in via your antenna and looks identical to a warm > resistor > generating Johnson noise. It sounds like you are saying the antenna receives the same amount of radiation as it radiates. That is not true. I provided two examples. One with carbon resistor and another with metal film resistor. The antenna will receive the same amount of radiation in both experiments, but the antenna with carbon resistor will radiate more energy than the metal film resistor at room temperature. In a nutshell, we have to antennas at room temperature, both receive the same amount of radiation energy, but the antenna connected to carbon resistor radiates more energy. The experiment with carbon resistor will get colder than the experiment with metal film resistor. > One might likewise argue that a resistor itself > generates no > thermal noise (since in a zero degree K thermal bath > it > certainly doesn't) and blame the effect on something > going > on in the resistor with another name - eg brownian > motion of > the electrons or something, but again that would > just be > semantics. I really don't see it that way. The carbon resistor is made of atoms containing charged particles. The noise is relative to the temperature of the charged particles. > The fact remains that whatever mechanism is > available to > _dissipate_ electrical power into the radiation > resistance > of the aether, must also act in reverse to produce > electrical > _fluctuations_ from the energy previously or > similarly > dissipated (hence the "dissipation-fluctuation > theorem"). That's possible, but if Aether generates noise given the frequency range as compared to carbon resistors then it is so infinitesimal that no scientist has measured such noise, that I am aware of. > Once equilibrium with the surroundings is reached, > the power > flowing from a warm resistor to a warm environment > via an > antenna will be exactly equal to the power flowing > back from > the warm environment to the warm resistor. That's true; i.e., the carbon resistor will reach equilibrium at a colder temperature. Regardless, that is a source of energy. [snip] > > ... the antenna connected to a carbon > > resistor does indeed radiate more power than an > > antenna connected to a metal film resistor. > > Only if you provide power in the form of a current > through > the carbon resistor to get the flicker mechanism > oscillating > (see the wikipedia flicker noise reference I offered > previously). Why are you interject flicker noise with this example? It's thermal noise. > But then a powered integrated RF > oscillator > connected to an antenna will radiate even more power > than > a powered carbon resistor! I'm uncertain why, but it seems you are interjecting irrelevant information, which merely draws attention away from the fact that --> A carbon resistor at room temperature connected to an antenna will radiate more energy than a similar setup using metal film resistor. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 11:33:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFIoh4u022341; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:02:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFFt7aA031433; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:55:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:55:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hSwyJI+s+rk7GX7EPH2h7fxQF1zkSYkXsMI7aYrMOKMHl6FHI+pufF9XcjIfsmCEgB0BAMfC7TJCLmPHs+m6UvbrhRvoLy0y+J1vh8YcBpGpxQz/tnQzYHgWpM7t3NoIK5VVI7cvvAp1ZQSf29OuMJx2HWVWq0UnYHFbS5L4gTg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:03:24 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water In-Reply-To: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <005f01c70856$a6f0ff50$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. We should not forget the lesson learned from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywater Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 13:49:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAFLeBOW024759; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:49:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAFJWEqq030636; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:32:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:32:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YabJMDuBlOA5NzZOuZjV7+ESiEayEDFYRlUmcnxzeTbkazqLB6cB6KJYuifRWNzZ; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:31:34 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b84066429458515a22731b832e589696350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Reading the link for sure has convinced me I have "Fictional Water", I guess that explains why it leaves the beaker at a rate of 20mL a day when not covered :-) I thought Jones had the key and samples are now stabilizing, this may answer the 'White' particles, but I see no reason, even after reading the wonderfully biased article that explains the temperature observations. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:03 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water On 11/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. We should not forget the lesson learned from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywater Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 18:16:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAG2FQW3013727; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:15:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAG2FPb0013704; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:15:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:15:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=4fIKOnigkY7BYsNcJA0pmohvcQsOp1dmOvLxtCyla3qn2AJUB8/M4f2B5ejmbgBzJb3Sjhkm6Fn/+YxY8OWwr2TyvAIaJHHIf00xe1mjtc9sceA86wqXhefCIHKLTF/oyAPSWz+PRiOFaGCDZMLSw4e0cF5GOMbGsvSH9zWJONc= ; X-YMail-OSG: pwL4FL8VM1lupamSbeCCpo6AN5BLBJQYwhd8jI828L0VWavWWLZDQum7DExK501P5PkDEz0owp5Y3monHhBelQuEqp1AUefO34yRZ3Abu03mdQeyjEPd3gIVXlCSOlR0BtQoMT6_DIxK1T1SF0ek4lT2K2X9fF8dlb8- Message-ID: <07bc01c70925$114b3590$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: "Drew Meulenberg" Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:15:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydrino Summation Status: O X-Status: For those LENR advocates on this forum who do not closely follow the hydrino forum: a recent message from Drew Meulenberg sums up nicely the bottom line situation in the "big picture" of LENR, the hydrino and the past 17 years of needless posturing and animosity involving the two "different" fields, but first let me quote Prof. Kowalski on a related issue. He asks: "What are the odds that two such anathema experimental circumstances, Mills and CF, are unrelated?" ANS: one can only guess. My guess is about a trillion to one... and not just because they occurred in the same year (1989) and in the same general type of experiment, using hydrogen and the same general kind of electrolytes and hydriding metals - and with the same kind of mixed confirmation from many subsequent overlapping experiments. The main reason they are related is encapsulated in that one word which is so appropriate to a correct understanding of any theory: "elegance". Mills provides an elegant way, in fact it is the only elegant way, to understand the basis of LENR. The good professor goes on. BTW the cite is: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/299hydrinos.html "The experiments of Mills and those of cold fusion relate to the original disagreement between Bohr and Einstein regarding (Einstein's phrase) the 'missing causal substratum'. (Bohr's rules are actually independent of v, meaning c can substitute for it with no change other than mental interpretation.) At the time, and to this day, Physics had no ultimate causal understanding of charge behavior in the bond between p and e, a particle, charge, unified field theory deficiency. (Thus, Physics must either choose Bohr and Schroedinger or stand in complete public atomic theoretical ignorance for nearly a century. They chose B & S. The inability of Mills experiments and cold fusion experiments to be explained by existing theoretical material exposes this ultimate deficiency from the past. ) To continue: --- In hydrino yahoogroups.com, Will Link has written: > Keep in mind: whether quantum mechanics is a correct theory is a > DIFFERENT question then whether or not Mills theory is a correct > theory. Even if Mills measurements could demonstrate > conclusively his fractional quantum states, his theory would > still be incorrect. Drew Meulenberg's insightful message that corrects this ridiculous conclusion: Bohr's model of the atom is "incorrect." Nevertheless, it revolutionized physics. I suspect that Mills' work may fall in the same category. If fractional quantum states are confirmed, he will be famous, even if his model is incorrect. His critics will be forgotten. Those who improve and correct the model will become the "new school." They will find that THEIR "correct" model is readily incorporated into SQM, which will be made more complete by the addition. While Mills has steered well clear of "cold fusion," it may end up vindicating him. Work in India, during the early '90's with light water and nickel, reproduced his early results (indicating the production of both tritium and neutrons; references provided on request). That work is continuing today in the US with the CR-39 detectors showing energetic alphas. The sub-orbital states are certainly an easier way to believe Coulomb-barrier penetration than most present theories to explain "cold-fusion" results. If Mills' model is BS, but ultimately sub-orbital states explain some aspects of LENR, as well as his research on hydrino and hydrino products, (both of which could lead to multiple breakthroughs in science and economics), where does that put him vs his critics (many of whom will be leading the rush to the federal $ trough, claiming long-term involvement)? Where does that put the many patents, which have not been issued?" END of quote. Well said. Personally I am as convinced of sub-orbital states as of the Bohr model and SQM, even if Mills is incorrect in some of the math and other details. He got the most of it right. Wouldn't the more general goal (societal aim) for the important quest for so-called "free energy" (non-nuclear) be better served if every LENR experimenter looked at the situation firmly grounded in Mills' insight? Not to mention: wouldn't Mills be better off if he switched to deuterium ?? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 18:16:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAG2CtOa011967; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:12:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAG2Cn1o011881; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:12:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.157.89 (UWA) Message-ID: <455BC907.6010109 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:12:23 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: <20061115163547.56166.qmail web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061115163547.56166.qmail web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 16112006 #228482, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (706/061115) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > I really don't see it that way. The carbon resistor is > made of atoms containing charged particles. The noise > is relative to the temperature of the charged > particles. Neither do I. I was trying to illustrate that assigning the noise source to the radiation resistance itself or some other thing such as the E-M radiation that is bouncing around in it, is similar to trying to separate the resistance of the conductive paths in a resistor from the electrons that are bouncing along them. We don't know what the aether is made of, but we do know that it supports electromagnetic waves and fluctuations. The spectrum of these fluctuations can be used to assign it a black body temperature. The temperature of deepest darkest space determined by this spectrum comes out around 2.7K. If the same measurement was done in a lab it would indicate an "aether black body temperature" of ~300K. If you attempt to couple to this aether with an antenna, then this radiation temperature will comes in through your antenna and the radiation resistance seen by the circuit looks identical to a ~300K warm resistor. > Why are you interject flicker noise with this example? > It's thermal noise. I have tried several times to educate you to the fact that the extra (or excess) noise found in carbon resistors is _not_ true thermal noise but is produced by DC current passing through the resistor. Why don't you read the wiki for yourself? Here is what it says: "Flicker noise is found in carbon composition resistors, where it is referred to as excess noise, since it increases the overall noise level above the thermal noise level, which is present in all resistors. In contrast, wire-wound resistors have the least amount of flicker noise. Since flicker noise is related to the level of DC, if the current is kept low, thermal noise will be the predominant effect in the resistor, and the type of resistor used will not affect noise levels." Please note the last phrase: "the type of resistor used will not affect the noise levels". Maybe you wish to disagree with common experimental knowledge? If so you should provide some reference for your as yet baseless assertion. If you are right, then it would be true that you could beat the 2nd law! But you wouldn't need an antenna - simply connecting two resistors with different thermal noise generation levels electrically would be sufficient to create a temperature difference between them in an otherwise uniform ambient. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 15 22:57:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAG6va1U000764; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:57:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAG6vUWO000678; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:57:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:57:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20061116065725.110158A1D2 xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:57:25 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is an experiment showing that exposure to a magnetic field increases the viscosity of water. This is such an easy thing to test that I tried it. It really works. At first I thought that this is mysterious and inexplicable. Then it occurred to me that since water molecules are electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz effect when in a magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change in orientation. Since the normal random thermal motion of the molecules would be more or less restricted, depending on the strength of the magnetic field, the rise in temperature of the water to ambient would be suppressed. This might also explain the precipitate. The normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation would also be suppressed, resulting in the water's inability to keep small paricles in suspension. The water would have to have some fine particulate impurity in the first place for this to happen. And here's some speculation: Suppose you place a beaker full of water inside a larger container with a non-polar liquid. Expose these to a strong magnetic field. Would the water become colder and the non-polar liquid hotter? Anti-entropic? Naaah. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 07:02:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGEnenX006292; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 06:50:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGDTweq022715; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:29:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c70983$3d8dd6e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:28:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70950.CF4619E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70950.CF4619E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70950.CF492720" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70950.CF492720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMichael Foster wrote.. >Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is an experiment showing that exposure to a magnetic field increases the viscosity of water. This is such an easy thing to test that I tried it. It really works. At first I thought that this is mysterious and inexplicable. Then it occurred to me that since water molecules are electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz effect when in a magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change in orientation. Since the normal random thermal motion of the molecules would be more or less restricted, depending on the strength of the magnetic field, the rise in temperature of the water to ambient would be suppressed. This might also explain the precipitate. The normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation would also be suppressed, resulting in the water's inability to keep small paricles in suspension. The water would have to have some fine particulate impurity in the first place for this to happen. And here's some speculation: Suppose you place a beaker full of water inside a larger container with a non-polar liquid. Expose these to a strong magnetic field. Would the water become colder and the non-polar liquid hotter? Anti-entropic? Naaah. Howdy Michael, We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single = occasion some time back.We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over = the lunch hour. Never able to reproduce the event in our steel test = tank. The municipal source of our water supply could have had been = hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent to reduce = manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame = and municipal chlorinated water would occasionally produce the = precipitate and severely oxidize the aluminum. You idea of using a non-polar liquid is intriguing. Glad we have been = giving the next test rig modular design theme some time for input like = your speculation. If you would like to see a pic of the present setup I = can send you a pdf. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70950.CF492720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Michael Foster wrote..
 
>Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is an
experiment = showing=20 that exposure to a magnetic field
increases the viscosity of = water. =20 This is such an
easy thing to test that I tried it.  It really=20 works.

At first I thought that this is mysterious and=20 inexplicable.
Then it occurred to me that since water molecules=20 are
electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz = effect
when in a=20 magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change
in = orientation.  Since=20 the normal random thermal motion of
the molecules would be more or = less=20 restricted, depending
on the strength of the magnetic field, the rise = in=20 temperature
of the water to ambient would be suppressed.

This = might=20 also explain the precipitate.  The normal Brownian
motion caused = by=20 thermal agitation would also be suppressed,
resulting in the water's=20 inability to keep small paricles in
suspension.  The water would = have to=20 have some fine particulate
impurity in the first place for this to=20 happen.

And here's some speculation:  Suppose you place a = beaker=20 full
of water inside a larger container with a non-polar = liquid.
Expose=20 these to a strong magnetic field.  Would the water
become colder = and the=20 non-polar liquid hotter?  Anti-entropic?
Naaah.
 
 
Howdy Michael,
 
We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single = occasion some time back.We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over = the=20 lunch hour. Never able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. = The=20 municipal source of our water supply could have had been = hypo-chlorinated that=20 day... or some chemical agent to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using = a=20 plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal chlorinated water  = would=20 occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the = aluminum.
 
You idea of using a non-polar liquid is intriguing. Glad we have = been=20 giving the next test rig modular design theme some time for input like = your=20 speculation. If you would like to see a pic of the present setup I can = send you=20 a pdf.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C70950.CF492720-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70950.CF4619E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c70983$199eed00$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C70950.CF4619E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 09:32:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGHL1ff013698; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:21:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGHKtRd013617; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:20:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:20:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c70986$5105f100$640fa8c0 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <07bc01c70925$114b3590$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:51:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <1wsAQ.A.TUD.13JXFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Hydrino Summation Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" Subject: [Vo]: Hydrino Summation My take on this is that yes, LENR and BLP are somehow related and will lead to a major advance in physical understanding. In Tom Stolper's book "Genius Inventor", a detailed and generally exccellent chronology of the controversy surrounding Mills, he devotes 85 pages to early work by Mills in electrolytic cells in the context of the growing controversy over CF. Tom sees excess heat in CFexperiments as "really" BLP catalysis reactions. The wasp in this ointment is that the F-P cell had lithium in its electrolyte, and lithium is distinctly **not** a BLP catalyst. The cells that Mills built, which turned on immediately and yielded excess heat, used K2CO3 as an electrolyte. Potassium was selected predictively from the 27.2 eV resonant transfer energy indicated by Mills' theory and a purposeful search of literature by John Farrell. Mills has demonstrated that deuterium forms deutrinos and it is reasonalbe to conjecture that such may facilitate LENR. But one has first to show that the conditions in LENR electrolytic cells are conducive to the generationof deutrinos by resonant transfer catalysis, and this has not been done. Jones' speculations are always interesting, but care is needed here to deal with facts as best known. Mike Carrell > > For those LENR advocates on this forum who do not closely follow the > hydrino forum: a recent message from Drew Meulenberg sums up nicely the > bottom line situation in the "big picture" of LENR, the hydrino and the > past 17 years of needless posturing and animosity involving the two > "different" fields, but first let me quote Prof. Kowalski on a related > issue. He asks: > > "What are the odds that two such anathema experimental circumstances, > Mills and CF, are unrelated?" > > ANS: one can only guess. My guess is about a trillion to one... and not > just because they occurred in the same year (1989) and in the same general > type of experiment, using hydrogen and the same general kind of > electrolytes and hydriding metals - and with the same kind of mixed > confirmation from many subsequent overlapping experiments. The main reason > they are related is encapsulated in that one word which is so appropriate > to a correct understanding of any theory: "elegance". Mills provides an > elegant way, in fact it is the only elegant way, to understand the basis > of LENR. > > The good professor goes on. BTW the cite is: > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/299hydrinos.html > > "The experiments of Mills and those of cold fusion relate to the original > disagreement between Bohr and Einstein regarding (Einstein's phrase) the > 'missing causal substratum'. (Bohr's rules are actually independent of v, > meaning c can substitute for it with no change other than mental > interpretation.) At the time, and to this day, Physics had no ultimate > causal understanding of charge behavior in the bond between p and e, a > particle, charge, unified field theory deficiency. (Thus, Physics must > either choose Bohr and Schroedinger or stand in complete public atomic > theoretical ignorance for nearly a century. They chose B & S. The > inability of Mills experiments and cold fusion experiments to be explained > by existing theoretical material exposes this ultimate deficiency from the > past. ) To continue: > > --- In hydrino yahoogroups.com, Will Link has written: > >> Keep in mind: whether quantum mechanics is a correct theory is a >> DIFFERENT question then whether or not Mills theory is a correct theory. >> Even if Mills measurements could demonstrate conclusively his fractional >> quantum states, his theory would still be incorrect. > > Drew Meulenberg's insightful message that corrects this ridiculous > conclusion: > > Bohr's model of the atom is "incorrect." Nevertheless, it revolutionized > physics. I suspect that Mills' work may fall in the same category. If > fractional quantum states are confirmed, he will be famous, even if his > model is incorrect. His critics will be forgotten. Those who improve and > correct the model will become the "new school." They will find that THEIR > "correct" model is readily incorporated into SQM, which will be made more > complete by the addition. > > While Mills has steered well clear of "cold fusion," it may end up > vindicating him. Work in India, during the early '90's with light water > and nickel, reproduced his early results (indicating the production of > both tritium and neutrons; references provided on request). That work is > continuing today in the US with the CR-39 detectors showing energetic > alphas. The sub-orbital states are certainly an easier way to believe > Coulomb-barrier penetration than most present theories to explain > "cold-fusion" results. > > If Mills' model is BS, but ultimately sub-orbital states explain some > aspects of LENR, as well as his research on hydrino and hydrino products, > (both of which could lead to multiple breakthroughs in science and > economics), where does that put him vs his critics (many of whom will be > leading the rush to the federal $ trough, claiming long-term involvement)? > Where does that put the many patents, which have not been issued?" END of > quote. > > Well said. Personally I am as convinced of sub-orbital states as of the > Bohr model and SQM, even if Mills is incorrect in some of the math and > other details. He got the most of it right. > > Wouldn't the more general goal (societal aim) for the important quest for > so-called "free energy" (non-nuclear) be better served if every LENR > experimenter looked at the situation firmly grounded in Mills' insight? > > Not to mention: wouldn't Mills be better off if he switched to deuterium > ?? > > Jones > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGIoRjU011669; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:03:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGIbm0V029448; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:37:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:37:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=2zYwsYqDb1hBCGIUXi+/7Cj8FASfnqR6S1cyfm05QLQioDh1mH/gmY9KGyVTj9Nhf+X2G84YJzeg5iewkP5gYj75mTi6QdTPP9voRFLCWelUbjzGGV4eiKENXv8E35RfOOqFQyi84ElGCic1hPJ5nTjvnJVt24Pr25neSsYHU7Y= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1514phYVM1kTwLc051NUfI0iivg5eFJBSnfb3bY7ZFWwxDehJhVT7j1Em87qmVMgRdtaedXvrxmvU7WoDzTMq8QHJteEjOUU_2rnkxtWiqVHZ40fUmY3Hg-- Message-ID: <004b01c7099b$03bc9560$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20061116065725.110158A1D2 xprdmxin.myway.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:19:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster's mention of the normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation being suppressed - also raises a larger issue. Much larger: global warming. John Roach wrote the following for 'National Geographic News' in 2004. "Earth's magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845" ... If the trend continues, the field may collapse altogether and then reverse. Compasses would point south instead of north.... Not surprisingly, Hollywood has already seized on this new twist in the natural-disaster genre. Last year Tinseltown released "The Core" a film in which the collapse of Earth's magnetic field leads to massive electrical storms, blasts of solar radiation, and birds incapable of navigation." Well - I musta missed that fine film, but the idea that the collapse of Earth's magnetic field will have unseen repercussions (some severe) is valid ... ...and one wonders: IF (big if) the present field alignment, especially at the poles has incorporated some large amount of energy stored in the form of anti-entropic field alignment of all that ice, gigatons - then what happens when the structure becomes unaligned, due to collapse of the field? It would likely not have been the approximately one degree of pent-up heat, seen by Dr. Stiffler, as his magnet was much stronger than the earth field - but it still could be substantial - and it is just possible that some of the global warming already seen in the polar regions is due to the diminishing magnetic field. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGIoRjW011669; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:03:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGI3vxe021818; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:03:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:03:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gMyI5joBgaGnxXOaL4li9H4WoDAuxQy1OhYmXRHGd3cO1PTzoVS7VK3cm5G6SjYhp+SuQzwNLwUlyrtqEbGWvX67LhdMj1TsodxXQa32JlRH+ET2k5ORwsajh93oLvHrt6kc+2EFr6nRVTBFyiVsiqY77RbsWh+vu9nBEmsdBTE= ; Message-ID: <20061116180346.72564.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:03:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <455BC907.6010109 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7Z7BkB.A.sUF.MgKXFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Winterflood wrote: > Paul wrote: > > I really don't see it that way. The carbon > resistor is > > made of atoms containing charged particles. The > noise > > is relative to the temperature of the charged > > particles. > > Neither do I. I was trying to illustrate that > assigning the noise source to the radiation > resistance itself or some other thing such as > the E-M radiation that is bouncing around in it, > is similar to trying to separate the resistance > of the conductive paths in a resistor from the > electrons that are bouncing along them. > > We don't know what the aether is made of, but we > do know that it supports electromagnetic waves > and fluctuations. The spectrum of these > fluctuations can be used to assign it a black > body temperature. The temperature of deepest > darkest space determined by this spectrum comes > out around 2.7K. If the same measurement was > done in a lab it would indicate an "aether > black body temperature" of ~300K. If you attempt > to couple to this aether with an antenna, then > this radiation temperature will comes in through > your antenna and the radiation resistance seen by > the circuit looks identical to a ~300K warm > resistor. I'm also a believer in some form of Aether. > > Why are you interject flicker noise with this > example? > > It's thermal noise. > > I have tried several times to educate you to the > fact that the extra (or excess) noise found in > carbon resistors is _not_ true thermal noise but > is produced by DC current passing through the > resistor. Why don't you read the wiki for yourself? > Here is what it says: > > "Flicker noise is found in carbon composition > resistors, where it is referred to as excess noise, > since it increases the overall noise level above > the thermal noise level, which is present in all > resistors. In contrast, wire-wound resistors have > the least amount of flicker noise. Since flicker > noise is related to the level of DC, if the current > is kept low, thermal noise will be the predominant > effect in the resistor, and the type of resistor > used will not affect noise levels." I did not know that. Sorry about that. :-) I knew about flicker noise, but not that it made the difference between carbon and metal film. I was just looking at a real experiment on flicker noise graph of carbon resistor. As you know the noise is relative to 1/f and current. It's dependent on current, not DC current. Here's an interesting quote from http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/goo.pdf "Carbon composition resistors exhibit current-dependent excess noise due to the random formation and extinction of macro arcs among neighboring carbon granules." The "macro arcs" sound very interesting. Also, here's another interesting quote, http://www.dsprelated.com/showmessage/23702/1.php "In most resistors there are two other noises which are far larger than the Johnson noise. There is the generally larger so-called 'shot noise' which is proportional to the current through the resistor and which unlike the white [flat] Johnson noise actually gets larger below a certain corner frequency, i.e. it's a 1/f noise effect, plus there is also the larger so-called current noise which is proportional to the voltage applied and is usually rated in uVoltsrms/Volt which also rises below a corner frequency, i.e. also a 1/f effect!" Notice it refers to two causes of shot noise. 1. Proportional to current. 2. Proportional to voltage. It seems #2 remains unchanged to the amount of resistance, whereas #1 changes with resistance. Anyhow, back to the experiment. Since there will be current flowing in the carbon resistor due to thermal noise, it will exhibit more voltage noise than the metal film and therefore the carbon resistor will get colder than the metal film resistor. > Please note the last phrase: "the type of resistor > used will not affect the noise levels". Maybe you > wish to disagree with common experimental knowledge? > If so you should provide some reference for your as > yet baseless assertion. Again, radiation resistance itself does not exhibit any detectable noise. If there is Aether noise at flicker noise frequencies then it is so that it has not been measured. The amount of noise coming from the antenna is due to the wire, not the radiation resistance. > If you are right, then it would be true that you > could beat the 2nd law! But you wouldn't need an > antenna - simply connecting two resistors with > different thermal noise generation levels > electrically would be sufficient to create a > temperature difference between them in an otherwise > uniform ambient. It really depends on ones interpretation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. There are physicists who have spent time debating the 2nd law and have therefore been force to adhere to the most extreme interpretation of the 2nd law, which is such a rigid interpretation that results in no known example that can even demonstrate such a rigid interpretation is correct. You seem to adhere to a less rigid 2nd law interpretation, which seems to be what most physicists follow. Although, the less rigid interpretation is breakable. Personally I do not follow the illusions of limitations, as I believe all things are possible. :-) Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 12:59:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGKx19p029793; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:59:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGKfBR6011286; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:41:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:41:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lxTgAJruIM0fm2/yEWBIV30Jwe6hEd1G/3/uqQNvt7jUVV/3wrGIuVefnx6CAI00; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:41:02 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <004b01c7099b$03bc9560$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94054608d511ecdcb9b55bcbcb642f16724350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>It would likely not have been the approximately one degree of >>pent-up heat, seen by Dr. Stiffler, as his magnet was much >>stronger than the earth field - but it still could be >>substantial - and it is just possible that some of the global >>warming already seen in the polar regions is due to the >>diminishing magnetic field. I must say I jumped on the concept of 'anti-entropic' (by Michael Foster) like a Fox on a Hen, without thinking of the farmer. I did start two test setups at once, but have already found that one must consider the requirement an Adiabatic or Diathermic wall between the polar and non-polar fluids. I am not prepared to make any meaningful observation other than if you plan to try it, Pyrex and Bomex are out, adiabatic wis required. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:20 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Michael Foster's mention of the normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation being suppressed - also raises a larger issue. Much larger: global warming. John Roach wrote the following for 'National Geographic News' in 2004. "Earth's magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845" ... If the trend continues, the field may collapse altogether and then reverse. Compasses would point south instead of north.... Not surprisingly, Hollywood has already seized on this new twist in the natural-disaster genre. Last year Tinseltown released "The Core" a film in which the collapse of Earth's magnetic field leads to massive electrical storms, blasts of solar radiation, and birds incapable of navigation." Well - I musta missed that fine film, but the idea that the collapse of Earth's magnetic field will have unseen repercussions (some severe) is valid ... ...and one wonders: IF (big if) the present field alignment, especially at the poles has incorporated some large amount of energy stored in the form of anti-entropic field alignment of all that ice, gigatons - then what happens when the structure becomes unaligned, due to collapse of the field? It would likely not have been the approximately one degree of pent-up heat, seen by Dr. Stiffler, as his magnet was much stronger than the earth field - but it still could be substantial - and it is just possible that some of the global warming already seen in the polar regions is due to the diminishing magnetic field. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 13:05:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGKpxaB022893; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:52:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGKptwa022798; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:51:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:51:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=IDAAEcJbb4gUfGZxzFBxxNuWinku263w60Nu73XLPTGiJQzew+oeV58mbUqdbTHVMp38dPkqMi8y6Uj9PT4bbVQ13NMfKSg5JZ1u01hxy7IUfm46a0hULYvRuEToILdQ8byP2a7wkv1zO44xyhu7pymYcWHvkBmt0gk6/HhKfmQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: bmqfX98VM1lTBbRGHFKyiiLw4rUVVz_2wQnXX0Y6iQo5tD3d0FvcUUogAQkzYQCPG0QTwvi_2_.fSRRn4Xo9KiCIQli.tiVt0VFUVvwjC_veANI4agQVvPIEf9M3tt6mkGqyndKjAv90G97baoQdUu4y7h7fGKJpcfk- Message-ID: <007601c709b3$85a81690$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <07bc01c70925$114b3590$6401a8c0 NuDell> <000c01c70986$5105f100$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:15:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Hydrino Summation Status: O X-Status: Mike > The wasp in this ointment is that the F-P cell had lithium in > its electrolyte, and lithium is distinctly **not** a BLP > catalyst. Yes, agreed - but then again (even without a kludge that makes it a catalyst)- this goes to the original "straw man" argument of the HSG thread. That being: > Keep in mind: whether quantum mechanics is a correct theory is a > DIFFERENT question then whether or not Mills theory is a correct > theory. Even if Mills measurements could demonstrate > conclusively his fractional quantum states, his theory would > still be incorrect. And as it turns out, in the alternative hydrino theory of Arie de Geus, lithium is a hydrino catalyst. This presents the possibility that anyone who comes along later - can improve on Mills work - or find gaps not covered. This does not at all denigrate the original work IMHO. The original insight is on a par with Bohr, etc. and history will assign the that to Mills. Therefore, it should be noted first that Mills alone had the original insight, and that is extraordinarily valuable in itself - but very likely Mills got the situation only either partially incorrect, or with big lapses in coverage, or even wrong in minor details. It doesn't really matter (historically), but what does delay things is the ego problem. The final chapter has not been written on this of course, and personally I very much doubt that hydrino formation is even exothermic in the first two stages (n= 1/2 and 1/3); and that all of the excess heat is coming from new kinds of fusion reactions involving "faux D" and even then it may be a natural and not a manufactured species, or from higher level shrinkage in the case of Mills. But the point is that there are any number of alternatives or improvements to Mills' original insight, and only three things are certain. 1) There are large egos involved 2) No general theory is correct in 2006 3) A useful theory for LENR will of necessity incorporate the hydrino as a basic paradigm. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 13:06:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGL6dO3005601; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:06:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGL6YFD005518; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:06:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:06:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mzJlB4ryK5sV5csX3ygb0vpbWZ/7irwpEUKr/YtLDJ/A6qy8esn3IkhOZKgBcm7A; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C70990.C49ECAB0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <000c01c70983$3d8dd6e0$0100007f xptower> Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d075628dbbfdb6967d0b787509bdf7bf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C70990.C49ECAB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01C70990.C49ECAB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C70990.C49ECAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blank>>We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single occasion some time back. >>We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never >>able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source of our water supply could >>have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent >>to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal >>chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the aluminum. R.C. I have not duplicated you setup, yet I have never seem Cl released as a White precipitate? You mention 'manganese' is this part of your electrolyte? If not I might suggest you start drinking bottled water or maybe a good Brandy :-) -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:28 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water Michael Foster wrote.. >Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is an experiment showing that exposure to a magnetic field increases the viscosity of water. This is such an easy thing to test that I tried it. It really works. At first I thought that this is mysterious and inexplicable. Then it occurred to me that since water molecules are electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz effect when in a magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change in orientation. Since the normal random thermal motion of the molecules would be more or less restricted, depending on the strength of the magnetic field, the rise in temperature of the water to ambient would be suppressed. This might also explain the precipitate. The normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation would also be suppressed, resulting in the water's inability to keep small paricles in suspension. The water would have to have some fine particulate impurity in the first place for this to happen. And here's some speculation: Suppose you place a beaker full of water inside a larger container with a non-polar liquid. Expose these to a strong magnetic field. Would the water become colder and the non-polar liquid hotter? Anti-entropic? Naaah. Howdy Michael, We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single occasion some time back.We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source of our water supply could have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the aluminum. You idea of using a non-polar liquid is intriguing. Glad we have been giving the next test rig modular design theme some time for input like your speculation. If you would like to see a pic of the present setup I can send you a pdf. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C70990.C49ECAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
>>We were able to = drop out some=20 white powder precipitate one a single occasion some time back.
>>We had forgotten to = turn off=20 the test unit over the lunch hour. Never 
>>able to reproduce = the event=20 in our steel test tank. The municipal source of our water supply = could
>>have had been=20 hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent
>>to reduce manganese.. or = visa-verse.=20 Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal
>>chlorinated = water  would=20 occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the = aluminum.
 
R.C.
 
I have not = duplicated=20 you setup, yet I have never seem Cl released as a White=20 precipitate?
 
You mention = 'manganese'=20 is this part of your electrolyte? If not I might suggest you start = drinking=20 bottled water or maybe a good Brandy :-)
 
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Macaulay=20 [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 = 7:28=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [VO]:Re: = Magnetic=20 effect on water

Michael Foster wrote..
 
>Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is = an
experiment=20 showing that exposure to a magnetic field
increases the viscosity = of=20 water.  This is such an
easy thing to test that I tried = it.  It=20 really works.

At first I thought that this is mysterious and=20 inexplicable.
Then it occurred to me that since water molecules=20 are
electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz = effect
when in a=20 magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change
in = orientation. =20 Since the normal random thermal motion of
the molecules would be = more or=20 less restricted, depending
on the strength of the magnetic field, = the rise=20 in temperature
of the water to ambient would be = suppressed.

This=20 might also explain the precipitate.  The normal = Brownian
motion caused=20 by thermal agitation would also be suppressed,
resulting in the = water's=20 inability to keep small paricles in
suspension.  The water = would have=20 to have some fine particulate
impurity in the first place for this = to=20 happen.

And here's some speculation:  Suppose you place a = beaker=20 full
of water inside a larger container with a non-polar = liquid.
Expose=20 these to a strong magnetic field.  Would the water
become = colder and=20 the non-polar liquid hotter?  Anti-entropic?
Naaah.
 
 
Howdy Michael,
 
We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a = single=20 occasion some time back.We had forgotten to turn off the test unit = over the=20 lunch hour. Never able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. = The=20 municipal source of our water supply could have had been = hypo-chlorinated that=20 day... or some chemical agent to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. = Using a=20 plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal chlorinated = water  would=20 occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the = aluminum.
 
You idea of using a non-polar liquid is intriguing. Glad we have = been=20 giving the next test rig modular design theme some time for input like = your=20 speculation. If you would like to see a pic of the present setup I can = send=20 you a pdf.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C70990.C49ECAB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C70990.C49ECAB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <375495920 16112006-2656> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C70990.C49ECAB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 16 15:41:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAGNVX9h030457; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:41:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAGM4hN6008907; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:04:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:04:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Hydrino Summation Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:20:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <07bc01c70925$114b3590$6401a8c0 NuDell> <000c01c70986$5105f100$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <007601c709b3$85a81690$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <007601c709b3$85a81690$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.198] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:20:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAGM4XDX008779 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:15:03 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Mike > >> The wasp in this ointment is that the F-P cell had lithium in >> its electrolyte, and lithium is distinctly **not** a BLP >> catalyst. > >Yes, agreed - but then again (even without a kludge that makes it >a catalyst)- this goes to the original "straw man" argument of the >HSG thread. That being: > >> Keep in mind: whether quantum mechanics is a correct theory is a >> DIFFERENT question then whether or not Mills theory is a correct >> theory. Even if Mills measurements could demonstrate >> conclusively his fractional quantum states, his theory would >> still be incorrect. > >And as it turns out, in the alternative hydrino theory of Arie de >Geus, lithium is a hydrino catalyst. Mills may not claim Li as a hydrino catalyst, but as I have previously pointed out on this forum, it has a K shell x-ray absorption energy of 54.7 eV, which IMO makes Li+ (at least), where the K shell is directly exposed to the environment, and hence to collisions, a Mills catalyst with m=2. IOW if it can absorb 54.7 eV from an x-ray, then I see no reason why it cannot absorb the same amount of energy from a hydrino. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 03:37:35 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHBbETY019684; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:37:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHBbAc5019640; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:37:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:37:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Sj9/3zV6dEpi1IEICGSVChB4ZMaBKCUWl2asdSkVE9X2dSgV9cUSpUll5SaUAgPd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061151711365683 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:36:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f385d1c7ac7081d1a925bb3c9c9639f9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.139 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravity field interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth ground. This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron counter-charge added to earth ground. Fred Doyle Buehler's Experiments: http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster: http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf "Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a net charge on the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the ground below. Lifters use a stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a net charge on the lifter (note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illustrated in figure 5 above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfectly conducting ground plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is one hundred times the distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at ground and the other is at a voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lifter and an image charge is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to lift the lifter. However, this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it up. The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge. That is, one plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving zero net charge. This gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conducting ground plane below such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force would be reduced from that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole would give a field about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a dielectric of relative dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one hundred squared. This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience. However, the force between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward force. These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since grass and even a concrete floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects may be more relevant for ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates within a metal box, these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a dipole like field for all distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. This field is the same in front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetry causes a nearly total cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley’s experiment did not rotate, but instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, his design was susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5 There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. For example, accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conductor (or dielectric), it can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform (as happens, for example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced charge and a resulting electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite small. Any charges that accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electrode. These effects tend to cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental data using Argon show the ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a similar way to in air. However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, since this mechanism would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be significant. Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced can be explained by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their momentum to the surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this force can be easily computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculation made more accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uniformly from one ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by 
Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravity field
interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth ground.
This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron
counter-charge added to earth ground.
 
Fred
 
Doyle Buehler's Experiments:
 
 
The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster:
 
 

"Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow

One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a net charge on

the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the ground below. Lifters use a

stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a net charge on the lifter

(note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illustrated in figure 5

above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfectly conducting ground

plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is one hundred times the

distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at ground and the other is at a

voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lifter and an image charge

is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to lift the lifter. However,

this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it up.

The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge. That is, one

plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving zero net charge. This

gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conducting ground plane below

such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force would be reduced from

that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole would give a field

about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a dielectric of relative

dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one hundred squared.

This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience. However, the force

between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward force.

These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since grass and even a concrete

floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects may be more relevant for

ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates within a metal box,

these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a dipole like field for all

distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. This field is the same in

front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetry causes a nearly total

cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley’s experiment did not rotate, but

instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, his design was

susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5

There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. For example,

accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conductor (or dielectric), it

can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform (as happens, for

example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced charge and a resulting

electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite small. Any charges that

accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electrode. These effects tend to

cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental data using Argon show the

ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a similar way to in air.

However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, since this mechanism

would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be significant.

Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow

A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced can be explained

by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their momentum to the

surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this force can be easily

computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculation made more

accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from

one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uniformly from one

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 04:52:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHCqVxA028367; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:52:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHCqTvm028340; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:52:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:52:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ugdc5m40vOTNW3bQw4zubFAXxdEuk0tG9ko+y30wxXA/Z7xHp9QGx4XcaYN8rYlp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611517121154565 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:11:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940313a3c32ebccce91181eec47ff21a28b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.120 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by > Gravity/Protons,..... A ~ 2 meter vertical tube with a photo-emissive layer at the bottom and a capacitor and/or electrometer connected to a collector plate and a laser at the top should see gravity repelled electrons that drift up from the laser-pulsed photo-emitter. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/17/2006 4:36:52 AM Subject: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravity field interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth ground. This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron counter-charge added to earth ground. Fred Doyle Buehler's Experiments: http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster: http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf "Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a net charge on the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the ground below. Lifters use a stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a net charge on the lifter (note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illustrated in figure 5 above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfectly conducting ground plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is one hundred times the distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at ground and the other is at a voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lifter and an image charge is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to lift the lifter. However, this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it up. The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge. That is, one plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving zero net charge. This gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conducting ground plane below such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force would be reduced from that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole would give a field about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a dielectric of relative dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one hundred squared. This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience. However, the force between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward force. These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since grass and even a concrete floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects may be more relevant for ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates within a metal box, these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a dipole like field for all distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. This field is the same in front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetry causes a nearly total cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley’s experiment did not rotate, but instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, his design was susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5 There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. For example, accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conductor (or dielectric), it can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform (as happens, for example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced charge and a resulting electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite small. Any charges that accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electrode. These effects tend to cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental data using Argon show the ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a similar way to in air. However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, since this mechanism would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be significant. Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced can be explained by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their momentum to the surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this force can be easily computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculation made more accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uniformly from one ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by 
> Gravity/Protons,.....
 
A  ~ 2 meter vertical tube with a photo-emissive layer at the bottom
and a capacitor and/or electrometer connected to a collector plate
and a laser at the top should see gravity repelled electrons that drift
up from the laser-pulsed photo-emitter.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/17/2006 4:36:52 AM
Subject: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation

If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by 
Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravity field
interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth ground.
This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron
counter-charge added to earth ground.
 
Fred
 
Doyle Buehler's Experiments:
 
 
The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster:
 
 

"Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow

One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a net charge on

the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the ground below. Lifters use a

stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a net charge on the lifter

(note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illustrated in figure 5

above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfectly conducting ground

plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is one hundred times the

distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at ground and the other is at a

voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lifter and an image charge

is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to lift the lifter. However,

this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it up.

The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge. That is, one

plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving zero net charge. This

gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conducting ground plane below

such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force would be reduced from

that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole would give a field

about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a dielectric of relative

dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one hundred squared.

This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience. However, the force

between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward force.

These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since grass and even a concrete

floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects may be more relevant for

ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates within a metal box,

these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a dipole like field for all

distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. This field is the same in

front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetry causes a nearly total

cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley’s experiment did not rotate, but

instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, his design was

susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5

There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. For example,

accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conductor (or dielectric), it

can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform (as happens, for

example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced charge and a resulting

electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite small. Any charges that

accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electrode. These effects tend to

cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental data using Argon show the

ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a similar way to in air.

However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, since this mechanism

would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be significant.

Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow

A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced can be explained

by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their momentum to the

surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this force can be easily

computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculation made more

accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from

one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uniformly from one

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 06:58:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHEWcBV015292; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:32:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHEWaHS015266; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:32:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=otz0lgzJszkWfLchCtdEk7REd7ntAF79DSJnfozdcU3KVhdBEW6o1x514hBO3yllKjVQ6NNxJSz/Va5vBbvk93aCnWn/SQcT2r0Sq297FVQQ1HmJTlcuU5b5a/10KVz3elxZmOmDLfR1ywxiZ4ilFFDhWtizyISb0QOYR8LHIiU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:32:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Shades of Tesla! Status: O X-Status: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6129460.stm "Physics promises wireless power By Jonathan Fildes Science and technology reporter, BBC News Plugs and wires could soon become a thing of the past The tangle of cables and plugs needed to recharge today's electronic gadgets could soon be a thing of the past. US researchers have outlined a relatively simple system that could deliver power to devices such as laptop computers or MP3 players without wires." They *do* give him credit in the article. So what are "Tails"? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 10:38:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHIUcuW027976; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:38:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHHqMhX016287; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:52:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:52:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:32:40 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Shades of Tesla! Message-ID: <20061117173240.GB8469 linux> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Googling for Soljacic resonance finds a lot of uncritical references to this work, including this in Scientific American: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=E87D47E5-E7F2-99DF-3AE75A880501B215 which says, "The results are strongly encouraging but the real test of the thing will be experiments, which we are working on now." Soljacic says. and links to this page, which links to a pdf article: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0611063 http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0611063 Wireless Non-Radiative Energy Transfer by Aristeidis Karalis, J.D.Joannopoulos, and Marin Soljai Maybe I'm just a skeptical old fogey, but I think that if a lossy, resistive human being gets between those two weird ring-disk thingies, he or she is going to absorb plenty of EM energy. (Which causes cancer by lining up your chromosomes like iron filings in a magnetic field, because the chromosomes have a different permittivity or something than the surrounding cytoplasm.) And it would seem that with the lab shop resources available at MIT it would be pretty easy to actually _do_ the experiments before announcing this great breakthrough to the world. Is there such a thing as tunneling across a distance of 16 feet? Maybe they meant nanometers... On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 09:32:30AM -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6129460.stm > >"Physics promises wireless power >By Jonathan Fildes >Science and technology reporter, BBC News > >Plugs and wires could soon become a thing of the past >The tangle of cables and plugs needed to recharge today's electronic >gadgets could soon be a thing of the past. > >US researchers have outlined a relatively simple system that could >deliver power to devices such as laptop computers or MP3 players >without wires." > > > >They *do* give him credit in the article. So what are "Tails"? > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 13:38:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHLU6Sh003080; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:37:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHKj5De021561; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:45:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:45:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=KkCQmgHkkq3a24IkcDGc+BDezMc/tL3L9OuGhFosUGKTmCy9sWg707RrHKE+RzJIKx7oBhJRn4gISJbo94yulz9Pgp1zxYqxHkDE3/6vSfduFD4Fzc0jzTAn/G/wKRjzpmJTd2XFe/f+7+JXb700qfLADW/JBaoLj2F3DdH1bC4= ; X-YMail-OSG: O_RG_7UVM1mBruvyviST4QqGehNBfLx36HyaRB8XdtY3dTfoF7.jtgiqn1r9U3dLmcQb9L7xPLgNRCs8K5VvcuRQRiUr_53N9aSabV2uZEEXtam2rIVpaw-- Message-ID: <002b01c70a89$37f440a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:44:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <3QKj0C.A.9PF.M9hXFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Possibly OT: Wootz in a name? Status: O X-Status: Wootz in a name ? or should that be: Watts in a patent? A little Hart-felt [sic] science-based e-humor, for your TGIF - it is hoped. And some improbable cross-connections, for another... From India to the Middle east to the nanotech lab, with a pull-out from the DC beltway: that is the course of this "monkey-business" quasi-Burksian Connections trail. And BTW, have you noticed that in politics - there is deeply ingrained in the bottom-line this kind of "tit-for-tat" poetic justice and uncanny reciprocity, which 'returns favors' with amazing regularity? One decade, one party gets-the-others goat in a huge name-shame, and then fast forward a 'score' to even the score, so to speak, and you have deja-vu all over again. Hope this word-play doesn't get un Berra-able Not that anybody remembers Gary Hart anymore. And speaking of sad-primates who will be quickly forgotten, a former Virginia Sinator [sic] knows a thing or two about aping simian names - and perhaps realizes now that arcane racial slurs are arguably one of the more powerful of weapons-which-can-backfire ... such is the politics of bigotry. ...but hey ... little sympathy is due there, because for one thing, the pol in question won his way into Congress on the strength of name recognition: his dad being a legendary NFL coach inducted into the Football Hall of Fame. Dad's name recognition didn't hurt the present Beltway lame duck either, but that's another story (and/or the next round of tit-for-tat retribution in a few months- "the revenge of Monica," so to speak). For those who don't remember the broken-Harted politician who was almost a US president, save for monkeying around with another brand of Rice ... check out the photo about halfway down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Hart Even to the dedicated word-phreak, the latest payback and the particular "insult" now being labeled liberally as a slur (macaca) - was kinda lame, don't ya think? as it is not that widely known outside the Raj - nor was it even an obvious racial slur to 99% of Va. voters. But that is the power of names: nomen est numen, as Nero might harp. Sure "caca" is bad ju-ju, and the "ma" kind of personalizes that stink . but let's put a fork into that monkey and get back to science-connections, starting pre-Raj... fergetabout close calls and name-phreaking. Watt [sic] goes around, comes around ... as they say, and this was little more than the revenge of Gary. Back in 1755 another notorious up-and-comer named Watt had been granted a patent by Parliament which prevented anybody else from making his steam-engine. And the good engineer, James Watt charged his customers a premium - based on a rather horsey formula. Watt calculated that a draft horse could exert a continuous pull of 180 lb, and then described every engine he made in relation to such an ideal horse (actually no horse can pull this off for more than a few hours w/o oat-refueling. If a customer bought a 10 HP engine, Watt calculate dhow much "hay" was saved by using his machine and the buyer then had to fork over 1/3 of that every year for the next 25. When James Watt died in 1819, he was indeed a very wealthy Scot - but that was a much due to the availability of cheap iron and steel, as to any other factor. Two hundred year earlier, the iron cost 10 times more than in Watts day. Wootz is a real name for the prototypical strong metal: a steel alloy first developed in India. It is perhaps the strongest of all steel before the superalloys of the jet-engine era, having a distinctive pattern or carbon banding within a tempered martensite matrix. Developed in India about the time the Romans were taking over the Med, the steel is better known to us in the USA as Damascus steel. The word "wootz" is related to the word for steel in several Asian languages, also found in the word: Wok. The small-batch techniques needed for making Damascus steel died out around the start of the industrial Age, as did the slaves needed to temper it (often with their own blood, it is said). The principal sources of special iron ores needed for its production were depleted, and cheaper steels of Europe made finding alternatives a failing chore. The needed "impurities" in the ore source contained are tungsten and vanadium but all they do, as we now know is to force the carbon - which is the strength of this steel, to form itself into what we know call carbon nanotubes. All of that gets us connected-up to the story in today's science news. If you want the play-by-play ironed out in every detail, instead of the executive summary, tune into Slashdot: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/16/2348254 the verbosity in those 230+ comments will make this piece look tame . And speaking of uppity names, now in vogue to supplant more recognizable copywritten tradenames: "Tylenol" has the generic name of Acetaminophen, as most of us know. Aleve is really Naproxen - etc but with that suggestive connotation, which is worth millions. Nowa-daze, the always dazed FDA has been looking for a generic name for "Viagra," the wealthiest of all trademarks, but soon to be as generic as your average woody. After careful consideration by a team of government experts, The FDA recently announced it has settled on the generic name of Ibepokin. Also considered were Dixafix, and of course Nocoxafloppin. But hey, Watts in a name? Signed, Harry S. Tuttle racoonteur and name-phreak BTW do you know what the "S" stands for? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 14:43:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHMgq6P010394; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:42:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHMgjb5010314; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:42:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:42:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=Nw5gry7GsbBfbIJ3x2XBPQF5FZ7wwszP6U6vR2eHoYSnGDHWX0Cf+Y+lje19ZOcrAaZDudCFKwteXW1ExJ358ky0p9sBALN/he0Tyc8ku5ofCFSj6udnd5YzNeqyNLXW/+A3pIEQeJK0oP3OvLyZIcTqmdOsPcLrScX8gbY6/fg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:38:50 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8039_28740650.1163799530403" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Who, please? Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8039_28740650.1163799530403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., Who, please is "Chaplin"? Is there a reference to this work? May we know this reference? Please? JH On 11/14/06, Jones Beene wrote: > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. ------=_Part_8039_28740650.1163799530403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
   Dear Vo.,
 
 Who, please is "Chaplin"?
 
      Is there a reference to this work?
 
      May we know this reference?  Please?
 
                   JH
 
 

On 11/14/06, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

> As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from
> the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower
> surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the
> surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin.
 
------=_Part_8039_28740650.1163799530403-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 14:53:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAHMoGQO016120; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:52:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAHMjREg012278; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:45:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=D70suBhN1FjDE7xGJ7rnMUxug+TWaUKDnxLCG0aUPbIa5F+GGsQ2TDe9pbNWqJpj; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <22847497.1163803519582.JavaMail.root elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:45:19 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b24372cc7f870e6633af2d2ad6c229ed29ca3e42375bd564350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.43 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 17, 2006 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message----- >From: What's New >Sent: Nov 17, 2006 12:03 PM >To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 17, 2006 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 17 Nov 06 Washington, DC 1. FREEDOM FUEL: HYDROGEN, IT SEEMS, IS NOT AN ODORLESS GAS. Last week a New Jersey court sentenced Patrick Kelly of Kuna, Idaho to five years in prison for defrauding investors in United Fuel Cell Technologies. I don't know Kelly, but in 2000 I got a letter from the Genesis Project in Boise, ID inviting me to join other scientists in developing an energy-efficient process for separating hydrogen from water. Bad smell. Two years later a company called Genesis World Energy claimed it had succeeded. WN cried "scam" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn121302.html . Scams that claim to break the First Law of Thermodynamics are not uncommon. What made this scam different was that the Genesis web site said they weren't taking investments. However, only one month later, President Bush in his State of the Union address proposed the Freedom Car, "powered by hydrogen, and pollution free" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN03/wn013103.html . Timing is everythng. Deep-pocket investors begged Genesis to be let in. 2. FREEDOM OF SCIENCE: "IN DEFENSE OF SCIENCE AND SECULARISM." On Tuesday, the Center for Inquiry held a press conference at the National Press Club in Washington to issue a declaration urging that public policy be based on science rather than faith. The declaration was signed by a number of leading scientists and advocates of strict church-state separation. The Center for Inquiry is an outgrowth of the Committee for the Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, which publishes the Skeptical Inquirer. 3. ELECTRONIC TOYS: THE WONDERS MODERN SCIENCE MAKES POSSIBLE. There are lines all over the country to buy the PS3. But Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co. is betting on a different horse: a button- activated, foot-tall, bearded Jesus in hand-sewn cloth and sandals. He recites such bible verses as, "No one can reach the Kingdom of God unless he is born again." That oughta grab 'em. 4. TAMIFLU: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED IN THE WAR AGAINST BIRD FLU? There were reports this week of "behavioral problems" associated with the antiviral drug, but the maker, Roche, says new data shows the effects are from the virus, not the drug. The Defense Department hopes so. It stockpiled huge amounts of tamiflu. Donald Rumsfeld hopes so too. He left DOD, but he's a major stockholder in Gilead Sciences where he was once CEO. Gilead holds the rights to tamiflu which it outsources to Roche. 5. RED WINE: GOOD NEWS IF YOU RUN MARATHONS, AND YOU'RE A MOUSE. Resveratrol, already shown to reverse the effects of obesity in mice, as we reported on 3 Nov 06 , has also been shown to increase their stamina. However, researchers say it's impossible to drink that much wine. We can but try. 6. ALTERNATIVES: CHINESE TURNING AWAY FROM TRADITIONAL MEDICINE. Even as demand for the untested superstitions soars in the West. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 18:07:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAI1jYtr026025; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:45:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAI1jU67025959; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:45:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:45:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 13:33:19 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Shades of Tesla! In-reply-to: <20061117173240.GB8469 linux> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611171333.19377.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <20061117173240.GB8469 linux> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am thinking of another use for this kind of power transfer. Why not use it to make all circuits wireless? It is a known fact that most problems with electronic equipment are at the connections, and this seems to be able to do away with them. Now signal is just another form of power and should be transferable as well. Color code the circuit parts and make them just the right shape to slide easily into shielded boxes where all the parts can work together. Do not need long ranges, just a half an inch or so will do fine for the any plug in device to communicate and/or power up from the backplane. This will make maintainance plug easy for maintainance personnel. Most techs prefer to be module pluckers anyway. If the resulting equipment looks like it came off the set of a 'StarGate SG-1" program, so what as long as one does not have to pay their producers money to use the idea.....which I just came up with anyway and I would be very surprised if I was the only one to think of it. And if the new equipment was even a tenth as long lived as the stuff on that show was supposed to be...thousands of years........ Standing Bear On Friday 17 November 2006 12:32, Mark S Bilk wrote: > Googling for > > Soljacic resonance > > finds a lot of uncritical references to this work, including > this in Scientific American: > > > http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=E87D47E5-E7F2-99DF- >3AE75A880501B215 > > which says, > > "The results are strongly encouraging but the real test of > the thing will be experiments, which we are working on now." > Soljacic says. > > and links to this page, which links to a pdf article: > > http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0611063 > > http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0611063 > Wireless Non-Radiative Energy Transfer > by Aristeidis Karalis, J.D.Joannopoulos, and Marin Soljai > > Maybe I'm just a skeptical old fogey, but I think that if > a lossy, resistive human being gets between those two weird > ring-disk thingies, he or she is going to absorb plenty of > EM energy. (Which causes cancer by lining up your chromosomes > like iron filings in a magnetic field, because the chromosomes > have a different permittivity or something than the surrounding > cytoplasm.) > > And it would seem that with the lab shop resources available > at MIT it would be pretty easy to actually _do_ the experiments > before announcing this great breakthrough to the world. > > Is there such a thing as tunneling across a distance of 16 feet? > Maybe they meant nanometers... > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 09:32:30AM -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6129460.stm > > > >"Physics promises wireless power > >By Jonathan Fildes > >Science and technology reporter, BBC News > > > >Plugs and wires could soon become a thing of the past > >The tangle of cables and plugs needed to recharge today's electronic > >gadgets could soon be a thing of the past. > > > >US researchers have outlined a relatively simple system that could > >deliver power to devices such as laptop computers or MP3 players > >without wires." > > > > > > > >They *do* give him credit in the article. So what are "Tails"? > > > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 06:11:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAIEBhkA022334; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:11:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAIEBd3C022299; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:11:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:11:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WPELgccDK4oiq927jdVDxCojvlbkI/Xb6fbGya0II+04NfWPFXnRIuSRh5qc4sYG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611618141131564 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:11:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94057ff90aa3ed270882967a75a9fe51326350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.222 Resent-Message-ID: <8-aiuB.A.JcF.aSxXFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While looking up means for getting high voltage between concentric spheres or cylinder's I came across Bill Beaty's really wild hair day: http://amasci.com/emotor/vdg.html The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept is about putting a high Electric Field (kilovolts per millimeter) or watts/mm^3 between concentric spheres or cylinders, thus creating the "shell" of an ether-vacuum "bubble" that tends to exclude/repel the gravity field surrounding a mass. The proverbial "Tubes of Force" that allow action at a distance through the ether sound about the same. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
While looking up means for getting high voltage between
concentric spheres or cylinder's I came across Bill Beaty's
really wild hair day:
 
 
The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept is about putting
a high Electric Field (kilovolts per millimeter) or watts/mm^3
between concentric spheres or cylinders, thus creating the "shell" of an
ether-vacuum "bubble" that tends to exclude/repel the gravity field surrounding a mass.
 
The proverbial "Tubes of Force" that allow action at a distance through the ether
sound about the same.
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 10:36:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAIIAo2j023618; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:10:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAIIAlwA023575; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:10:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:10:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=aywxPBtiSTHfoK16SX+cklDqlmsDYOqJhB1yBmbb9eYaJCXPv3VDQdEdW5MoUeCdwyQpG/AxsbOdrLxJpOz9YfRFRhXSiQckPRO4dRg36IPdy3w1hLJoCZGEVSCDT5Yy6630+z6WZuvOXkGevQ6BOiDy9DcufKQQKeBwxMot6nI= ; X-YMail-OSG: qPSylNgVM1l09i_D5allj1UybSmjIUFTgrPEr_bHjFA._TVXplQl6sLJ0CiEygY_hjNulxA8be_X1C1bp4J_IZFkxvYLQoOrFze9p95TQ4Fj.p232WbGuQ-- Message-ID: <001001c70b3c$d9a793d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002b01c70a89$37f440a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4d4401c70b35$450ed280$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:10:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <9gvn0B.A.-vF.ly0XFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possibly OT: Wootz in a name? Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Quinney" ... do you know what the "S" stands for? > Subversion? > http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/brazil/tuttle.html Busted ! Colin wins the online sleuth award, once again. Or ...as an alternative correct answer, "disambiguation" as Wiki calls it...(life is never "that" simple: to have only one correct answer) ...click on the "S." in the name of the this infamously profane haberdasher, but not the first time it occurs (as only the second "S." is hotlinked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Truman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 11:44:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAIJiUEc014800; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAIJiRlG014765; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:44:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:44:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <410-2200611517121154565 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UxTBt4iB8aAP3S9agQuZoQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <8KD4DD.A.lmD.aK2XFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_UxTBt4iB8aAP3S9agQuZoQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Were the folks at NASA aware of this simple experiment? http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm http://www.gravityforum.com/lifters/usa/pittsburgh/tubular-lifter/ Would they say ions were streaming downward from the _bottom_ of the lifter?? Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/17/2006 4:36:52 AM Subject: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually Repelled by Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravity field interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth ground.=20 This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron counter-charge added to earth ground. Fred Doyle Buehler's Experiments: http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster: http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf "Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a net charge on=20 the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the ground below. Lifters use a stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a net charge on the lifter (note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illustrated in figure 5 above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfectly conducting ground plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is one hundred times the distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at groun= d and the other is at a voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lifter and an image charge is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to lift the lifter. However, this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it up. The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge= . That is, one=20 plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving zero net charge. This gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conducting ground plane below such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force would be reduced from that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole would give a field=20 about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a dielectric of relative dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one hundred squared.=20 This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience. However, the force=20 between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward force.=20 These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since grass and even a concrete floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects ma= y be more relevant for ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates within a metal box, these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a dipole like field for all distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. This field is the same in front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetr= y causes a nearly total cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley=92s experiment did not rotate, but instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, his design was=20 susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5 There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. For example,=20 accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conducto= r (or dielectric), it can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform (as happens, for=20 example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced charge and a resulting electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite small. Any charges that accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electrode. These effects tend to cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental dat= a using Argon show the ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a similar way to in air. However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, since this mechanism would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be significant.=20 Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced ca= n be explained=20 by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their momentum to the=20 surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this force can be easily computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculation made more accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uniformly from one --Boundary_(ID_UxTBt4iB8aAP3S9agQuZoQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable tubular lifter

Were the folks at NASA aware of this simple experiment?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm
http://www.gravityforum.com/lifters/usa/pittsburgh/tubular-lifter/

Would they say ions were streaming downward from the _bottom_
of the lifter??

Harry


----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net>  = ;
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: 11/17/2006 4:36:52 AM
Subject: Re: E-Field Mass Cancellation

If you buy my earlier contention that Electrons are actually= Repelled by
Gravity/Protons, then the lift Buehler saw is an electrostatic/electrogravi= ty field
interaction between the charged single plates, or the capacitors and earth = ground.
This would explain why the positive plate was repelled due to it's electron=
counter-charge added to earth ground.

Fred

Doyle Buehler's Experiments:

http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf

The NASA report on the Canning Cap Thruster:

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf

"Electrostatic Forces without Current Flow =

One possible explanation for lifters might be electrostatic forces due to a= net charge on

the lifter interacting with induced charges (e.g. image charges) in the gro= und below. Lifters use a

stationary power supply, and how it is configured determines if there is a = net charge on the lifter

(note the ground can be wired in different ways, and some examples are illu= strated in figure 5

above). To investigate this possibility, assume the extreme case of a perfe= ctly conducting ground

plane below a lifter, and also assume that its distance from the lifter is = one hundred times the

distance between the charged plates of the lifter. If one plate is at groun= d and the other is at a

voltage such as 100 kilovolts, then the electrostatic force between the lif= ter and an image charge

is significant. Computations show it is about the magnitude necessary to= lift the lifter. However,

this force is attractive, so it would pull the lifter down, not push it = up.

The power supply could be configured so that the lifter has zero net charge= . That is, one

plate could be positively charged and the other negatively charged, giving = zero net charge. This

gives the electrostatic field of a dipole. If there were a perfectly conduc= ting ground plane below

such a lifter, then an image dipole would be induced. The resulting force w= ould be reduced from

that discussed above by a factor of one hundred squared, since each dipole = would give a field

about one hundred times smaller than a single charge. However, using a diel= ectric of relative

dielectric constant one hundred would increase the force by a factor of one= hundred squared.

This force would then be of about of the magnitude that lifters experience.= However, the force

between a dipole and its image is attractive, so it would be a downward for= ce.

These effects are not likely to be significant for actual lifters, since gr= ass and even a concrete

floor (possibly with rebar in it) is not a good conductor. These effects ma= y be more relevant for

ACTs which may operate near metal objects. However, when an ACT rotates wit= hin a metal box,

these effects may be expected to average to zero. These devices create a di= pole like field for all

distances larger than a few times the distance between their electrodes. Th= is field is the same in

front of the device as behind it, except for a change of sign. This symmetr= y causes a nearly total

cancellation of forces for a rotating device. We note that Talley=92s experim= ent did not rotate, but

instead suspended the device from a stiff wire. Since that did not rotate, = his design was

susceptible to electrostatic effects, as he reported.5

There are other plausible mechanisms for creating an electrostatic force. F= or example,

accelerating charges radiate. When this radiation is incident on a conducto= r (or dielectric), it

can cause a current. If the current and charge on the ACT were non uniform = (as happens, for

example, when there are Trichel Pulses), then there could be an induced cha= rge and a resulting

electrostatic interaction. We expect that such an effect would be quite sma= ll. Any charges that

accelerate also decelerate, either by collisions with air the other electro= de. These effects tend to

cancel, so the net result should be quite small. Also, our experimental dat= a using Argon show the

ACT still produces a force, which depends on the current, and voltage in a = similar way to in air.

However, in Argon the current flows uniformly, and not in bursts. Thus, sin= ce this mechanism

would not give a force in argon, we conclude that it is unlikely to be sign= ificant.

Electrostatic Forces with a Current Flow

A simple model was found to explain all of our data. The thrust produced ca= n be explained

by electrostatic forces moving ions, and by those ions transferring their m= omentum to the

surrounding air by collisions. Using some reasonable approximations, this f= orce can be easily

computed. Later, some of those assumptions will be removed and the calculat= ion made more

accurate. We assume for now that all of the current consists of N2 ions traveling directly from

one electrode to the other, and further assume that the voltage changes uni= formly from one


--Boundary_(ID_UxTBt4iB8aAP3S9agQuZoQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 13:45:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAILjKTd025388; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:45:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAILjHvp025366; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:45:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:45:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118134804.02b872a8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 13:48:49 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_866287734==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_866287734==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_866287750==.ALT" --=====================_866287750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2006/11/18/9700215_New_Energy_So= urces/ "Russ George's D2Fusion company, ... has amassed the best collection of=20 cold fusion scientists in the world. "'They have eighteen different=20 working approaches.'" http://www.7x7sf.com/features/hot_20/4226151.html Emacs! The Rocket Scientist Laura Chao, 24. Nuclear researcher at D2Fusion, a Foster City company=20 working on generating clean, renewable energy from solid-state fusion. Laura Chao isn=92t really a rocket scientist=ADthat=92s just what her= friends=20 teasingly tell guys who approach her in bars. She=92s in nuclear physics,= and=20 though it might seem extraordinary that a 24-year-old woman barely out of=20 college is already immersed in such a hierarchical, male-dominated field,=20 it=92s almost second nature to Chao: She was born and raised on the Stanford= =20 campus, the daughter of accelerator physicist Alex Chao. =93I can remember= =20 being five years old and knowing about subatomic particles,=94 she says. COLD CASE That inborn knack comes in handy as Chao searches for a way to fuse two=20 hydrogen atoms into a helium atom at room temperature=ADa controversial=20 scientific endeavor called =93cold fusion=94 or =93solid-state fusion,=94= which, if=20 successful, could generate tremendous amounts of safe, renewable energy.=20 =93If somebody makes a reproducible cold-fusion experiment, everything will= =20 change,=94 says Chao. =93Our world-energy problems will go away.=94 GEEK PATROL So what happens when her pals tell potential suitors that they=92re courting= =20 a brainiac? =93It=92s not a problem with the guys I date, because I like=20 geeks,=94 says the Inner Sunset resident, who seeks out underground=20 break-dancing competitions when she=92s not in the lab. =93I=92m lucky: The= Bay=20 Area is the place to be if you like geeky guys.=94 JUST LIKE HEAVEN That=92s not the only reason that Chao insists there=92s no place like home.= =20 =93The combination of wealth and liberalism in Northern California is so=20 unusual, it=92s like utopia=ADrich people giving away their money.=94 Yep,= she=92s=20 smart all right. *************** --=====================_866287750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2006/11/18/9700215_New_Energy_So= urces/

"Russ George's D2Fusion company, ... has amassed the best collection of cold fusion scientists in the world.  "'They have eighteen different working approaches.'"


http://www.7x7sf.com/features/hot_20/4226151.html

The Rocket Scientist

Laura Chao, 24. Nuclear researcher at D2Fusion, a Foster City company working on generating clean, renewable energy from solid-state fusion.

Laura Chao isn=92t really a rocket scientist=ADthat=92s just what her friend= s teasingly tell guys who approach her in bars. She=92s in nuclear physics, and though it might seem extraordinary that a 24-year-old woman barely out of college is already immersed in such a hierarchical, male-dominated field, it=92s almost second nature to Chao: She was born and raised on the Stanford campus, the daughter of accelerator physicist Alex Chao. =93I can remember being five years old and knowing about subatomic particles,=94 she says.

COLD CASE
That inborn knack comes in handy as Chao searches for a way to fuse two hydrogen atoms into a helium atom at room temperature=ADa controversial scientific endeavor called =93cold fusion=94 or =93solid-state fusion,=94 wh= ich, if successful, could generate tremendous amounts of safe, renewable energy. =93If somebody makes a reproducible cold-fusion experiment, everything will change,=94 says Chao. =93Our world-energy problems will go away.=94

GEEK PATROL
So what happens when her pals tell potential suitors that they=92re courting a brainiac? =93It=92s not a problem with the guys I date, because I like geeks,=94 says the Inner Sunset resident, who seeks out underground break-dancing competitions when she=92s not in the lab. =93I=92m lucky: The = Bay Area is the place to be if you like geeky guys.=94

JUST LIKE HEAVEN
That=92s not the only reason that Chao insists there=92s no place like home. =93The combination of wealth and liberalism in Northern California is so unusual, it=92s like utopia=ADrich people giving away their money.=94 Yep, she=92s smart all right.

***************

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mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7dJWEa21smtlhi76nfyrIA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_7dJWEa21smtlhi76nfyrIA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In the gold rush of 1849 the ratio of men to women in California was about ten to one. =20 Harry Steven Krivit wrote: http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2006/11/18/9700215_New_Energy_S= o urces/ "Russ George's D2Fusion company, ... has amassed the best collection of cold fusion scientists in the world. "'They have eighteen different working approaches.'" http://www.7x7sf.com/features/hot_20/4226151.html The Rocket Scientist Laura Chao, 24. Nuclear researcher at D2Fusion, a Foster City company working on generating clean, renewable energy from solid-state fusion. Laura Chao isn=92t really a rocket scientist=ADthat=92s just what her friends teasingly tell guys who approach her in bars. She=92s in nuclear physics, and though it might seem extraordinary that a 24-year-old woman barely out of college is already immersed in such a hierarchical, male-dominated field, it=92s almost second nature to Chao: She was born and raised on the Stanford campus, the daughter of accelerator physicist Alex Chao. =93I can remember being five years old and knowing about subatomic particles,=94 she says. COLD CASE That inborn knack comes in handy as Chao searches for a way to fuse two hydrogen atoms into a helium atom at room temperature=ADa controversial scientific endeavor called =93cold fusion=94 or =93solid-state fusion,=94 which, if successful, could generate tremendous amounts of safe, renewable energy. =93I= f somebody makes a reproducible cold-fusion experiment, everything will change,=94 says Chao. =93Our world-energy problems will go away.=94 GEEK PATROL So what happens when her pals tell potential suitors that they=92re courting = a brainiac? =93It=92s not a problem with the guys I date, because I like geeks,=94 says the Inner Sunset resident, who seeks out underground break-dancing competitions when she=92s not in the lab. =93I=92m lucky: The Bay Area is the place to be if you like geeky guys.=94 JUST LIKE HEAVEN That=92s not the only reason that Chao insists there=92s no place like home. =93The combination of wealth and liberalism in Northern California is so unusual, it=92s like utopia=ADrich people giving away their money.=94 Yep, she=92s smart all right.=20 *************** --Boundary_(ID_7dJWEa21smtlhi76nfyrIA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Vo]: In the gold rush of 1849 the ratio of men to women in California was about =
ten to one.  

Harry

Steven Krivit wrote:

http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2006/11/18/9700215_= New_Energy_Sources/

<http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2006/11/18/9700215_New_Ene= rgy_Sources/> "Russ George's D2Fusion company, ... has amassed the b= est collection of cold fusion scientists in the world.  "'They hav= e eighteen different working approaches.'"


http://www.7x7sf.com/features/hot_20/4226151.html

<http://www.7x7sf.com/features/hot_20/4226151.html>

The Rocket Scientist

Laura Chao, 24. Nuclear researcher at D2Fusion, a Foster City company worki= ng on generating clean, renewable energy from solid-state fusion.

Laura Chao isn=92t really a rocket scientist=ADthat=92s just what her friends tea= singly tell guys who approach her in bars. She=92s in nuclear physics, and tho= ugh it might seem extraordinary that a 24-year-old woman barely out of colle= ge is already immersed in such a hierarchical, male-dominated field, it=92s al= most second nature to Chao: She was born and raised on the Stanford campus, = the daughter of accelerator physicist Alex Chao. =93I can remember being five = years old and knowing about subatomic particles,=94 she says.

COLD CASE
That inborn knack comes in handy as Chao searches for a way to fuse two hyd= rogen atoms into a helium atom at room temperature=ADa controversial scientifi= c endeavor called =93cold fusion=94 or =93solid-state fusion,=94 which, if successfu= l, could generate tremendous amounts of safe, renewable energy. =93If somebody= makes a reproducible cold-fusion experiment, everything will change,=94 says = Chao. =93Our world-energy problems will go away.=94

GEEK PATROL
So what happens when her pals tell potential suitors that they=92re courting = a brainiac? =93It=92s not a problem with the guys I date, because I like geeks,=94= says the Inner Sunset resident, who seeks out underground break-dancing com= petitions when she=92s not in the lab. =93I=92m lucky: The Bay Area is the place t= o be if you like geeky guys.=94

JUST LIKE HEAVEN
That=92s not the only reason that Chao insists there=92s no place like home. =93T= he combination of wealth and liberalism in Northern California is so unusual= , it=92s like utopia=ADrich people giving away their money.=94 Yep, she=92s smart al= l right.

***************



--Boundary_(ID_7dJWEa21smtlhi76nfyrIA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 14:58:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAIMbwhr016350; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:37:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAIMboTj016239; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:37:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:37:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118144050.02ba13b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:41:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118134804.02b872a8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: so that means? .....Chao is quite unique! s At 02:05 PM 11/18/2006, you wrote: >In the gold rush of 1849 the ratio of men to women in California was about >ten to one. > >Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 15:37:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAINJbC4019938; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:19:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAINJZIZ019897; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:19:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:19:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:19:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118144050.02ba13b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...and popular. Harry Steven Krivit wrote: > so that means? .....Chao is quite unique! > > s > > At 02:05 PM 11/18/2006, you wrote: >> In the gold rush of 1849 the ratio of men to women in California was about >> ten to one. >> >> Harry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 15:42:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAINgNdB006765; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:42:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAINgLdK006733; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:42:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:42:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118154551.02af0e78 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:46:02 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20061118144050.02ba13b8 mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: cold fusion...the girl everybody wants to date.... At 03:19 PM 11/18/2006, you wrote: >...and popular. > >Harry > >Steven Krivit wrote: > > > so that means? .....Chao is quite unique! > > > > s > > > > At 02:05 PM 11/18/2006, you wrote: > >> In the gold rush of 1849 the ratio of men to women in California was about > >> ten to one. > >> > >> Harry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 15:51:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAINo6vZ013785; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:51:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAINXGZj029349; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:33:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:33:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=R0EDqwkuxusrAMHqhXMfWeLoKEC7z0xUzT5X9jbkZQw2BoQt/TZMJNtkthf6FPpHBdFJnDRCYIPPHpKnn0gK95CE7l4N5fGrJxR4StX5sDMb2etyM+0mEvZp5xgStTuZldwWjUGtWsSNsE/otz4enDV5f3KVqCoItNvaof6K8MQ= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:33:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Possibly OT: Wootz in a name? In-Reply-To: <001001c70b3c$d9a793d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002b01c70a89$37f440a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <4d4401c70b35$450ed280$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> <001001c70b3c$d9a793d0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/18/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Busted ! Colin wins the online sleuth award, once again. > > Or ...as an alternative correct answer, "disambiguation" as Wiki > calls it...(life is never "that" simple: to have only one correct > answer) > > ...click on the "S." in the name of the this infamously profane > haberdasher, but not the first time it occurs (as only the second > "S." is hotlinked: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Truman My grandfather was named JL (Jay-El, Superman's relative?) Parker on his birth certificate. When the army insisted that he have a first name, he chose "Joe"; hence, my middle name. He never chose a middle name. BTW, I thought 'Subtle' would be a good (ironic) choice for Tuttle, eh? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 19 01:49:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAJ9nYhX000577; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:49:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAJ9nWxE000546; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:49:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:49:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A3E+WZlYnaqNrWM8vvRd7GTirjtBsycEjc7iOhhFCjjC/M/E0aV+ihBBACGTXkvC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061101994921505 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 02:49:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940488d61276934727c3bd99618a4cc2f0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.69 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Conceopt Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Can you get a high enough E-Field/Energy Density to effect enough Polarized Vacuum to create a "Spacebubble"? Cylindrical Capacitor Equations: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Spherical Capacitor and Isolated Sphere Capacitance Equations: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html For example an isolated 2.0 meter diameter Van de Graaff sphere (R = 1.0 meter) has a capacitance C = 4(pi)eoR = 4*3.14159*8.85E-12*1.0 = 1.112E-10 farads. If it has 3.0 million volts on it (3.0 million volts per meter is the corona onset point [the breakdown point of air at sea level pressure-temperature]) the charge Q = C*V = 1.112E-10 farad* 3E6 volts = 3.336E-4 Coulombs. Since the fundamental unit of charge (plus or minus) = 1.6E-19 Coulombs, dividing Sphere Charge Q by 1.6E-19 = 3.336E-4/1.6E-19 = 2.08E15 electrons spread over the 2.0 meter diameter sphere surface of 4(pi)R^2 meters or 4*3.14159* 1.0^2 = 1.659E14 electrons per square meter. The same exercise can be applied to a wire of a given diameter and length to see where the corona point in air sets in (76 Kilovolts/Inch radius or 3.0 Megavolts/meter radius) and the corresponding surface electron density. Vacuum Breakdown Info: http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/public/CESR/SRF/dissertations/werner/werner.html Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Can you get a high enough E-Field/Energy Density
to effect enough Polarized Vacuum to create a "Spacebubble"?
 
Cylindrical Capacitor Equations:
 
 
Spherical Capacitor and Isolated Sphere Capacitance Equations:
 
 
For example an isolated 2.0 meter diameter Van de Graaff sphere (R = 1.0 meter) 
has a capacitance C = 4(pi)eoR = 4*3.14159*8.85E-12*1.0 =  1.112E-10 farads.
 
If it has 3.0 million volts on it (3.0 million volts per meter is the corona
onset point [the breakdown point of air at sea level pressure-temperature])
the charge Q = C*V = 1.112E-10 farad* 3E6 volts = 3.336E-4 Coulombs.
 
Since the fundamental unit of charge (plus or minus) = 1.6E-19 Coulombs, dividing
Sphere Charge Q by 1.6E-19 = 3.336E-4/1.6E-19 = 2.08E15 electrons
spread over the 2.0 meter diameter sphere surface of  4(pi)R^2  meters
or 4*3.14159* 1.0^2 = 1.659E14 electrons per square meter.
 
The same exercise can be applied to a wire of a given diameter and length
to see where the corona point in air sets in (76 Kilovolts/Inch radius 
or 3.0 Megavolts/meter radius) and the corresponding surface electron density.
 
Vacuum Breakdown Info:
 
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 19 05:01:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAJD1BbU015209; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 05:01:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAJD18Np015161; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 05:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 05:01:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RDXABDUU1pfvg7mEFMrMZQMPtCbFUUCMcybGXENOt5t0hjE3uvtQFFU8Bn7/Ef6E; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061101913044307 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 06:00:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e165dc81c098367e3d542d5ac3c25602350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8348atoms.html "The run-up to the 1955 milestone starts with Müller's invention in 1936 of the field emission microscope, which predates the field ion microscope by more than 10 years. In the field emission instrument, a specimen in the form of a sharp tip or needle is maintained under high vacuum and subjected to a large negative voltage. Applying a few thousand volts to a specimen with a tip radius of approximately 50 nm results in an electric field at the specimen tip of roughly 10 V per nm. Fields of that magnitude are strong enough to cause electrons to be emitted from the tip via quantum mechanical tunneling, a process that had been predicted by pioneers of quantum theory in the 1920s. 10 Gigavolts per meter ought to polarize any vacuum. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 11/19/2006 2:49:18 AM Subject: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept Can you get a high enough E-Field/Energy Density to effect enough Polarized Vacuum to create a "Spacebubble"? Cylindrical Capacitor Equations: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Spherical Capacitor and Isolated Sphere Capacitance Equations: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html For example an isolated 2.0 meter diameter Van de Graaff sphere (R = 1.0 meter) has a capacitance C = 4(pi)eoR = 4*3.14159*8.85E-12*1.0 = 1.112E-10 farads. If it has 3.0 million volts on it (3.0 million volts per meter is the corona onset point [the breakdown point of air at sea level pressure-temperature]) the charge Q = C*V = 1.112E-10 farad* 3E6 volts = 3.336E-4 Coulombs. Since the fundamental unit of charge (plus or minus) = 1.6E-19 Coulombs, dividing Sphere Charge Q by 1.6E-19 = 3.336E-4/1.6E-19 = 2.08E15 electrons spread over the 2.0 meter diameter sphere surface of 4(pi)R^2 meters or 4*3.14159* 1.0^2 = 1.659E14 electrons per square meter. The same exercise can be applied to a wire of a given diameter and length to see where the corona point in air sets in (76 Kilovolts/Inch radius or 3.0 Megavolts/meter radius) and the corresponding surface electron density. Vacuum Breakdown Info: http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/public/CESR/SRF/dissertations/werner/werner.html Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
"The run-up to the 1955 milestone starts with Müller's invention in 1936 of the field emission microscope, which predates the field ion microscope by more than 10 years. In the field emission instrument, a specimen in the form of a sharp tip or needle is maintained under high vacuum and subjected to a large negative voltage. Applying a few thousand volts to a specimen with a tip radius of approximately 50 nm results in an electric field at the specimen tip of roughly 10 V per nm. Fields of that magnitude are strong enough to cause electrons to be emitted from the tip via quantum mechanical tunneling, a process that had been predicted by pioneers of quantum theory in the 1920s.
 
10 Gigavolts per meter ought to polarize any vacuum.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/19/2006 2:49:18 AM
Subject: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept

Can you get a high enough E-Field/Energy Density
to effect enough Polarized Vacuum to create a "Spacebubble"?
 
Cylindrical Capacitor Equations:
 
 
Spherical Capacitor and Isolated Sphere Capacitance Equations:
 
 
For example an isolated 2.0 meter diameter Van de Graaff sphere (R = 1.0 meter) 
has a capacitance C = 4(pi)eoR = 4*3.14159*8.85E-12*1.0 =  1.112E-10 farads.
 
If it has 3.0 million volts on it (3.0 million volts per meter is the corona
onset point [the breakdown point of air at sea level pressure-temperature])
the charge Q = C*V = 1.112E-10 farad* 3E6 volts = 3.336E-4 Coulombs.
 
Since the fundamental unit of charge (plus or minus) = 1.6E-19 Coulombs, dividing
Sphere Charge Q by 1.6E-19 = 3.336E-4/1.6E-19 = 2.08E15 electrons
spread over the 2.0 meter diameter sphere surface of  4(pi)R^2  meters
or 4*3.14159* 1.0^2 = 1.659E14 electrons per square meter.
 
The same exercise can be applied to a wire of a given diameter and length
to see where the corona point in air sets in (76 Kilovolts/Inch radius 
or 3.0 Megavolts/meter radius) and the corresponding surface electron density.
 
Vacuum Breakdown Info:
 
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 19 09:50:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAJHo3A8027813; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:50:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAJHUH8I006823; Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:30:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:30:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=t5EBSMMK9rptEbKNM4rqdVlGzdqFyzY9cHIjGLWgoaRPFiNOBZSO3dqYGMIp7Db2xXE080KDZCWwdS8PQc9GEsxMrZSrAEEp0NqX3C2UVZ8wolzXSpjaypLN9hY7ygeizDxiwqKMlnjvkB78phGdvez2OaNf0Trf7lQTsoEoFHk= ; X-YMail-OSG: kpktKowVM1mA2TpJ5cT3tlXn44qPUa2UTwfgkctgOrddCr1tZLvWsFI5sWdMZchKOMyzuMmrcHsFBrhJjOWSAxzCuBfoQFRT6qwWZU04opprSTcKqQWCcg-- Message-ID: <053701c70bfc$a352b880$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:03:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Names that work Status: O X-Status: Subject: "Names that Work" [Aside]: I am adding a second subject header to the start of posts until the Vortex server software gets out of the habit of the dreaded "blank subject header". My last attempt at a kludge for this problem was to compose the post in MS Word first, and then paste into Outlook, but that failed effort resulted in spacing of 3 blank lines between paragraphs. Oh well. Is everything from MS buggy or what ? or is the software trying to tell me something about the (lack of) weighty content in these posts? There will be some heavier content, in this particular thread, coming out on Vo later - on the important subject of two new species of heavy hydrogen... ...cough, cough... That sound a little presumptive, no? Two new species of hydrogen, undetected by science for all theses years ... riiiight! OK. These two have been detected in a way, already, but not given real names nor well-understood previously ... until R. Mills provided the basic insight with his brilliant concept of redundant-ground-state forms of hydrogen.. However, before even getting into that most provocative light subjects, to wit: (and this is your teaser) 1) Faux-D 2) Faux-T 2) Lunar 3He - being the decay product of Faux-T ... first ... a little light humor, based on googling... the purpose being to see if anyone had beaten RvS to the punch with the name: "faux-D"... ... humor... as derived form one of the more curious of those societal "coincidences" in which (for whatever reason) ... a person of some accomplishment happens to have chosen a profession (unconsciously for sure) which is reflective of his/her real surname ... like a Jazzman named Strahorn or a guitar player named Strummer, or a surgeon named Stitch or a lawyer named Cheatam ... not to mention the infamous Ernest Griesel -- yes, that is his birth name - who drives a diesel whose engine he converted to run on grease. http://pesn.com/2005/03/11/6900068_Griesel/ well it turns up in LENR as well ... (beyond the cross-cultural close-call of "Mizuno" meaning water, in Japanese). Here is one which is even more curious examples to naming juxtaposed to the arcane hypothesis which I will be airing sometime in the next few days, which has already been labeled as "Faux-D" by Robin. "Nuclear spin relaxation by translational diffusion of hydrogen in BCC metals: the effect of hopping to second-nearest neighbors" by Faux, D 1991 J. Phys.: Condens. Matter 3 2201-2205 D. A. Faux, Dept. of Phys. Surrey Univ. Guildford, UK Abstract. Quantities relevant to the theoretical determination of D/T1 are calculated ... using the Monte Carlo/analytic method devised by Faux, Ross and Sholl (1986) ... Results are obtained for the hydrogen-to-metal ratio of 0.6 for a multiple-site-blocking model in which the hydrogen spins block all sites to either the second or the third neighbor. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 18 09:42:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAIHGmbD003053; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:16:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAIHGdpx002920; Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:16:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=BKy/KtVQ1kzxU9svxA/CAKetlmGdfcjf6A41vjCNit1R/2KKb4SwC2toRGoqsSvHOA9F4fDWojCeh0rpmpnut3tAQ2odk8iU+PoZ5VQG20pFyBhhZk2tBTM0xWlDhEfuF25d92X2ZlffBadoMqKEFZgRYAgZ/u5RUgh4wr6EWHc= ; X-YMail-OSG: XnSbn08VM1mKRdDjYtOM6AFIgzjAj8fpEAF48yhzZWHNv_LGfqmxvpOdywl5zGn_QMlbjMazBhzIWp3nKPrziq5oc8QkF4LK5mJXGA1WFcqoyupxR9cY Message-ID: <4d4401c70b35$450ed280$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <002b01c70a89$37f440a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:16:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possibly OT: Wootz in a name? X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Subversion? http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/brazil/tuttle.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: [Vo]: Possibly OT: Wootz in a name? > Signed, > > > > Harry S. Tuttle racoonteur and name-phreak > > > > > > BTW do you know what the "S" stands for? > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 04:30:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAKCUON3023745; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 04:30:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKCNgvN018393; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 04:23:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 04:23:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <029001c70c9c$1c0130a0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: , References: <410-220061101913044307 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:05:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAKCNXpx018288 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, The air breakdown field is not 3MV per meter of radius, but per meter of distance between the HV element and ground. If your 2m diameter sphere is far enough from grounded elements I see no reason why it couldn't be charged to more than 3MV. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept > http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8348atoms.html > > "The run-up to the 1955 milestone starts with Müller's invention in 1936 of the field emission microscope, which predates the field ion microscope by more than 10 years. In the field emission instrument, a specimen in the form of a sharp tip or needle is maintained under high vacuum and subjected to a large negative voltage. Applying a few thousand volts to a specimen with a tip radius of approximately 50 nm results in an electric field at the specimen tip of roughly 10 V per nm. Fields of that magnitude are strong enough to cause electrons to be emitted from the tip via quantum mechanical tunneling, a process that had been predicted by pioneers of quantum theory in the 1920s. > > 10 Gigavolts per meter ought to polarize any vacuum. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: 11/19/2006 2:49:18 AM > Subject: Re: The Polarized Vacuum Spacebubble Concept > > > Can you get a high enough E-Field/Energy Density > to effect enough Polarized Vacuum to create a "Spacebubble"? > > Cylindrical Capacitor Equations: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html > > Spherical Capacitor and Isolated Sphere Capacitance Equations: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html > > For example an isolated 2.0 meter diameter Van de Graaff sphere (R = 1.0 meter) > has a capacitance C = 4(pi)eoR = 4*3.14159*8.85E-12*1.0 = 1.112E-10 farads. > > If it has 3.0 million volts on it (3.0 million volts per meter is the corona > onset point [the breakdown point of air at sea level pressure-temperature]) > the charge Q = C*V = 1.112E-10 farad* 3E6 volts = 3.336E-4 Coulombs. > > Since the fundamental unit of charge (plus or minus) = 1.6E-19 Coulombs, dividing > Sphere Charge Q by 1.6E-19 = 3.336E-4/1.6E-19 = 2.08E15 electrons > spread over the 2.0 meter diameter sphere surface of 4(pi)R^2 meters > or 4*3.14159* 1.0^2 = 1.659E14 electrons per square meter. > > The same exercise can be applied to a wire of a given diameter and length > to see where the corona point in air sets in (76 Kilovolts/Inch radius > or 3.0 Megavolts/meter radius) and the corresponding surface electron density. > > Vacuum Breakdown Info: > > http://w4.lns.cornell.edu/public/CESR/SRF/dissertations/werner/werner.html > > Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 07:54:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAKFs9BG028731; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:54:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKFs2nH028640; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:54:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 07:54:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jzl0QeM6hj1DTK+7oAWa7LMFR9C6T2t3aTnw2OZ6mRDmvx/8d1EFiOD6vgMyyyWo; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:53:51 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407579604447f695e7898987bdd5a19020350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A current update on the tests run over the weekend and what was found. 1) It is not required to isolated the components in order to reduce ambient air currents, provided they of course are not subjected directly to A/C or heating vents with forced air. *See #4 2) Air circulation through the core of the magnets (where the test sample is placed) will prevent the observation of any temperature difference. *See #4. Magnets and sample will stabilize within 30 minutes. All thermometers are calibrated with NIST Standards and are matched and accurate to +/- 0.1C 3) So long a small sample tubes are used (seen in provided images) there is no need for consideration of an adiabatic wall between the sample and the magnet body. As explained later, the air is sufficient. The inside diameter of the magnet core is 7.5cm and the sample tubes used were standard 15mm centrifuge tubes of approx 1.5cm O.D. 4) The magnetic core must be sealed (sit on flat surface, actual seal is not required) at the bottom (sitting on a support, non-metallic, plastic etc., is fine) this stops the air from falling or rising (at any significant rate) through the core. The top of the core is covered by a folded sheet of 20# paper with a hole to allow the entry of the sample tube. Nothing is sealed, the paper sits on top and does not prevent air/heat interchange over time. 5) Two types of water was used, Distilled - Deionized (Medical Grade) and tap water. 6) One dry sample was used with the following mix (by weight) 10% Al powder, 10% Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax), 80% fine graphite powder. Six tests were run, two on each water sample and two on the powder. The different waters reacted in a similar fashion, with the lowest temperature difference being 0.9C +/-0.1C best was 1.1C with +/-0.1C A thermometer was attached to the magnet body and one was inserted in the sample. To ambient thermometers were placed one 12cm above the sample and magnets and a second 30cm above the arrangement. In the photos the large unit on the left is from the 30cm unit and the right unit is from the 12cm probe. The results from the dry sample are different to the extend I have to run additional tests before giving results, I may have some interaction that I have not accounted for yet. So what do I think is happening? Here is what I think at this time. It is *Not* the water! Bold statement indeed as what I think is going on is bolder yet. I feel there is in some way a polarization of the air within the core surrounding the samples which is having an effect on the heat transfer from the sample to the polarized area so that it can be equalized with ambient. Let me be clear on what is observed. If a sample at ambient (which means the magnets are also at ambient) is placed within the test rig, *Nothing happens*, it does not cool nor does it gain heat. Now if a sample above ambient is placed in the core (say +5C above) it will cool to ambient within 10 minutes (on average 6-8) minutes. If a sample that is cooler than ambient is placed in the test rig, the sample will rise towards ambient at about 1C per minute, settling anywhere from (-0.5 to -1.6C) below ambient. This temperature difference has been observed to remain for as long as 3 hours at which point the test was stopped. I only provide this additional info as I started a thread and said I would after some additional tests. I do now plan to look closer at this, with direct work on the dry power results. Pictures; www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-003s.jpg www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-005s.jpg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 12:20:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAKJDbEw017323; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:22:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKIO1n2022947; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:24:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:24:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UWA-Client-IP: 130.95.49.48 (UWA) Message-ID: <4561EB3C.2000109 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:51:56 +0800 From: John Winterflood User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (Windows/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect References: <20061116180346.72564.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061116180346.72564.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Anti-Virus: Kaspersky Anti-Virus for MailServers 5.5.10/RELEASE, bases: 20112006 #229544, status: clean X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Formal (726/061120) X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Detect Hard [UCS 2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: Marking Spam - Subject (UCS) [2006-10-25] X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [0125], KAS/Release Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > ... > I was just looking at a real experiment on flicker > noise graph of carbon resistor. As you know the noise > is relative to 1/f and current. It's dependent on > current, not DC current. Here's an interesting quote > from > http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/goo.pdf > "Carbon composition resistors exhibit > current-dependent excess noise due to the random > formation and extinction of macro arcs among > neighboring carbon granules." > > The "macro arcs" sound very interesting > > Also, here's another interesting quote, > http://www.dsprelated.com/showmessage/23702/1.php > "In most resistors there are two other noises which > are far larger than the Johnson noise. There is the > generally larger so-called 'shot noise' which is > proportional to the current through the resistor and > which unlike the white [flat] Johnson noise actually > gets larger below a certain corner frequency, i.e. > it's a 1/f noise effect, plus there is also the larger > so-called current noise which is proportional to the > voltage applied and is usually rated in uVoltsrms/Volt > which also rises below a corner frequency, i.e. also a > 1/f effect!" > > Notice it refers to two causes of shot noise. ... Resistors do not exhibit "shot noise" as the term is standardly applied in physics. Maybe this guy is referring to flicker noise as shot noise because it sounds like "shots" or something. Who knows! Both of the noise sources he describes (current dependent and voltage dependent) would standardly be referred to as "1/f noise" or "excess noise" or even "flicker noise". Shot noise on the other hand is generally only observed when one puts some sort of an energy barrier in the circuit such that the electrons can no longer "sit on the fence" anywhere around the circuit as they can in a typical resistor, but must decide which side of the barrier they are going to be on. When they gain enough energy to jump the barrier, then the granular nature of the current (ie an integer number of electrons passing the barrier) becomes evident as shot noise. A typical energy barrier might be a reversed biased diode for instance and electrons can be given enough energy to jump the barrier by various means such as thermal activation, photo-electric activation, voltage breakdown, etc. (There was a time when this noise business was a black art to me and I would have appreciated answers such as I have been providing. So maybe there are others who might be helped by these clarifications.) > 1. Proportional to current. 2. Proportional to voltage. > It seems #2 remains unchanged to the amount of > resistance, whereas #1 changes with resistance. > ... > Anyhow, back to the experiment. Since there will be > current flowing in the carbon resistor due to thermal > noise, it will exhibit more voltage noise ... Kinda hard to get "macro arcs" (see your comment above) at thermal noise levels of induced voltage don't you think! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 13:50:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAKLUIS6003688; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:33:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKL7OqZ009317; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:07:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:07:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=P4L9JPisil5Qq+yMyeqN8LJZ0iCpu/008L5xRPVQPwuteCwn9CtyEbu+VymsxScNtr7rd27bcLPZdDtC+/Ldc6a4meoKR5OaAnCnv5Wi0y14EpU0TWKZp6HGvBxhbNrWV2sYxtWnPQ+ONjD+RHXAes5qbCwj8SXjA3jYxO79qK8= ; X-YMail-OSG: J1tDxQgVM1np1oOY8osSGaeqX_iajBlWVdpPQPrGSILWjQLxJu4Z0c.TfGrj4IujDMvq.a3NQUVn8DOjeJX2D5JEEPw7mTDHxcr2y0Vrav9msyJOfbFNdGPudbHtqLz3QhBiPoxWfSPXgu0_QoPEeFDEyyEnhGE8vG0- Message-ID: <008e01c70cd0$92a58380$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:20:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is very thought provoking, and unexpected. One question - were you able to try any variations in the magnetic field - either in the orientation or in the strength of the magnet ? Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "R Stiffler" To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water >A current update on the tests run over the weekend and what was >found. > > 1) It is not required to isolated the components in order to > reduce ambient > air currents, provided they of course are not subjected directly > to A/C or > heating vents with forced air. *See #4 > > 2) Air circulation through the core of the magnets (where the > test sample is > placed) will prevent the observation of any temperature > difference. *See #4. > Magnets and sample will stabilize within 30 minutes. All > thermometers are > calibrated with NIST Standards and are matched and accurate to > +/- 0.1C > > 3) So long a small sample tubes are used (seen in provided > images) there is > no need for consideration of an adiabatic wall between the > sample and the > magnet body. As explained later, the air is sufficient. The > inside diameter > of the magnet core is 7.5cm and the sample tubes used were > standard 15mm > centrifuge tubes of approx 1.5cm O.D. > > 4) The magnetic core must be sealed (sit on flat surface, actual > seal is not > required) at the bottom (sitting on a support, non-metallic, > plastic etc., > is fine) this stops the air from falling or rising (at any > significant rate) > through the core. The top of the core is covered by a folded > sheet of 20# > paper with a hole to allow the entry of the sample tube. Nothing > is sealed, > the paper sits on top and does not prevent air/heat interchange > over time. > > 5) Two types of water was used, Distilled - Deionized (Medical > Grade) and > tap water. > > 6) One dry sample was used with the following mix (by weight) > 10% Al powder, > 10% Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax), 80% fine graphite > powder. > > Six tests were run, two on each water sample and two on the > powder. The > different waters reacted in a similar fashion, with the lowest > temperature > difference being 0.9C +/-0.1C best was 1.1C with +/-0.1C A > thermometer was > attached to the magnet body and one was inserted in the sample. > To ambient > thermometers were placed one 12cm above the sample and magnets > and a second > 30cm above the arrangement. In the photos the large unit on the > left is from > the 30cm unit and the right unit is from the 12cm probe. > > The results from the dry sample are different to the extend I > have to run > additional tests before giving results, I may have some > interaction that I > have not accounted for yet. > > So what do I think is happening? Here is what I think at this > time. It is > *Not* the water! Bold statement indeed as what I think is going > on is bolder > yet. I feel there is in some way a polarization of the air > within the core > surrounding the samples which is having an effect on the heat > transfer from > the sample to the polarized area so that it can be equalized > with ambient. > > Let me be clear on what is observed. If a sample at ambient > (which means the > magnets are also at ambient) is placed within the test rig, > *Nothing > happens*, it does not cool nor does it gain heat. > > Now if a sample above ambient is placed in the core (say +5C > above) it will > cool to ambient within 10 minutes (on average 6-8) minutes. If a > sample that > is cooler than ambient is placed in the test rig, the sample > will rise > towards ambient at about 1C per minute, settling anywhere from > (-0.5 > to -1.6C) below ambient. This temperature difference has been > observed to > remain for as long as 3 hours at which point the test was > stopped. > > I only provide this additional info as I started a thread and > said I would > after some additional tests. I do now plan to look closer at > this, with > direct work on the dry power results. > > Pictures; > > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-003s.jpg > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-005s.jpg > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 15:00:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAKN02KM009241; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:00:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKMrp38004338; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:53:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:53:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=eyBNoKrQDMTbzmzIy+tlqMCsv1+RVSEGPevirJ+eCZ/g9VswVgyKEj67yCwkQD95; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:30:28 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <008e01c70cd0$92a58380$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aad8290dd31436564f3025ed27c28567350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It will take me 3-4 days before I assemble all data so that my student can create a web page on the subject. So that I do not trip on my tongue as I often do, lets wait a few days and you all can look at the data and see what it shows. Think of 'A Heat Capacitor'. I will post the location once done, maybe a week because of the Holiday. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:21 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water This is very thought provoking, and unexpected. One question - were you able to try any variations in the magnetic field - either in the orientation or in the strength of the magnet ? Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "R Stiffler" To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water >A current update on the tests run over the weekend and what was >found. > > 1) It is not required to isolated the components in order to > reduce ambient > air currents, provided they of course are not subjected directly > to A/C or > heating vents with forced air. *See #4 > > 2) Air circulation through the core of the magnets (where the > test sample is > placed) will prevent the observation of any temperature > difference. *See #4. > Magnets and sample will stabilize within 30 minutes. All > thermometers are > calibrated with NIST Standards and are matched and accurate to > +/- 0.1C > > 3) So long a small sample tubes are used (seen in provided > images) there is > no need for consideration of an adiabatic wall between the > sample and the > magnet body. As explained later, the air is sufficient. The > inside diameter > of the magnet core is 7.5cm and the sample tubes used were > standard 15mm > centrifuge tubes of approx 1.5cm O.D. > > 4) The magnetic core must be sealed (sit on flat surface, actual > seal is not > required) at the bottom (sitting on a support, non-metallic, > plastic etc., > is fine) this stops the air from falling or rising (at any > significant rate) > through the core. The top of the core is covered by a folded > sheet of 20# > paper with a hole to allow the entry of the sample tube. Nothing > is sealed, > the paper sits on top and does not prevent air/heat interchange > over time. > > 5) Two types of water was used, Distilled - Deionized (Medical > Grade) and > tap water. > > 6) One dry sample was used with the following mix (by weight) > 10% Al powder, > 10% Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax), 80% fine graphite > powder. > > Six tests were run, two on each water sample and two on the > powder. The > different waters reacted in a similar fashion, with the lowest > temperature > difference being 0.9C +/-0.1C best was 1.1C with +/-0.1C A > thermometer was > attached to the magnet body and one was inserted in the sample. > To ambient > thermometers were placed one 12cm above the sample and magnets > and a second > 30cm above the arrangement. In the photos the large unit on the > left is from > the 30cm unit and the right unit is from the 12cm probe. > > The results from the dry sample are different to the extend I > have to run > additional tests before giving results, I may have some > interaction that I > have not accounted for yet. > > So what do I think is happening? Here is what I think at this > time. It is > *Not* the water! Bold statement indeed as what I think is going > on is bolder > yet. I feel there is in some way a polarization of the air > within the core > surrounding the samples which is having an effect on the heat > transfer from > the sample to the polarized area so that it can be equalized > with ambient. > > Let me be clear on what is observed. If a sample at ambient > (which means the > magnets are also at ambient) is placed within the test rig, > *Nothing > happens*, it does not cool nor does it gain heat. > > Now if a sample above ambient is placed in the core (say +5C > above) it will > cool to ambient within 10 minutes (on average 6-8) minutes. If a > sample that > is cooler than ambient is placed in the test rig, the sample > will rise > towards ambient at about 1C per minute, settling anywhere from > (-0.5 > to -1.6C) below ambient. This temperature difference has been > observed to > remain for as long as 3 hours at which point the test was > stopped. > > I only provide this additional info as I started a thread and > said I would > after some additional tests. I do now plan to look closer at > this, with > direct work on the dry power results. > > Pictures; > > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-003s.jpg > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-005s.jpg > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 16:01:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL007cf000499; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:00:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAKNlGlr020514; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:47:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:47:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dN+fiw1IypJi6xGed7GJzjt+MOpO07ZypEEJrHq2k9xTNqEYj5pkK+fG7/WfsLbe; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:45:35 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <008e01c70cd0$92a58380$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ab22a592d4c215f7d63e7b2ff790d51d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The page will be; www.stifflerscientific.com/vheadtdiff.html He is working on it tonight to get some data on. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:21 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water This is very thought provoking, and unexpected. One question - were you able to try any variations in the magnetic field - either in the orientation or in the strength of the magnet ? Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "R Stiffler" To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water >A current update on the tests run over the weekend and what was >found. > > 1) It is not required to isolated the components in order to > reduce ambient > air currents, provided they of course are not subjected directly > to A/C or > heating vents with forced air. *See #4 > > 2) Air circulation through the core of the magnets (where the > test sample is > placed) will prevent the observation of any temperature > difference. *See #4. > Magnets and sample will stabilize within 30 minutes. All > thermometers are > calibrated with NIST Standards and are matched and accurate to > +/- 0.1C > > 3) So long a small sample tubes are used (seen in provided > images) there is > no need for consideration of an adiabatic wall between the > sample and the > magnet body. As explained later, the air is sufficient. The > inside diameter > of the magnet core is 7.5cm and the sample tubes used were > standard 15mm > centrifuge tubes of approx 1.5cm O.D. > > 4) The magnetic core must be sealed (sit on flat surface, actual > seal is not > required) at the bottom (sitting on a support, non-metallic, > plastic etc., > is fine) this stops the air from falling or rising (at any > significant rate) > through the core. The top of the core is covered by a folded > sheet of 20# > paper with a hole to allow the entry of the sample tube. Nothing > is sealed, > the paper sits on top and does not prevent air/heat interchange > over time. > > 5) Two types of water was used, Distilled - Deionized (Medical > Grade) and > tap water. > > 6) One dry sample was used with the following mix (by weight) > 10% Al powder, > 10% Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax), 80% fine graphite > powder. > > Six tests were run, two on each water sample and two on the > powder. The > different waters reacted in a similar fashion, with the lowest > temperature > difference being 0.9C +/-0.1C best was 1.1C with +/-0.1C A > thermometer was > attached to the magnet body and one was inserted in the sample. > To ambient > thermometers were placed one 12cm above the sample and magnets > and a second > 30cm above the arrangement. In the photos the large unit on the > left is from > the 30cm unit and the right unit is from the 12cm probe. > > The results from the dry sample are different to the extend I > have to run > additional tests before giving results, I may have some > interaction that I > have not accounted for yet. > > So what do I think is happening? Here is what I think at this > time. It is > *Not* the water! Bold statement indeed as what I think is going > on is bolder > yet. I feel there is in some way a polarization of the air > within the core > surrounding the samples which is having an effect on the heat > transfer from > the sample to the polarized area so that it can be equalized > with ambient. > > Let me be clear on what is observed. If a sample at ambient > (which means the > magnets are also at ambient) is placed within the test rig, > *Nothing > happens*, it does not cool nor does it gain heat. > > Now if a sample above ambient is placed in the core (say +5C > above) it will > cool to ambient within 10 minutes (on average 6-8) minutes. If a > sample that > is cooler than ambient is placed in the test rig, the sample > will rise > towards ambient at about 1C per minute, settling anywhere from > (-0.5 > to -1.6C) below ambient. This temperature difference has been > observed to > remain for as long as 3 hours at which point the test was > stopped. > > I only provide this additional info as I started a thread and > said I would > after some additional tests. I do now plan to look closer at > this, with > direct work on the dry power results. > > Pictures; > > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-003s.jpg > www.stifflerscientific.com/simages/mvc-005s.jpg > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 16:28:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL0Rpo0029403; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:27:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAL0Rl7L029335; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:27:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 16:27:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XMiROoFx1JUDyiDhri8O7HTTQOKF8I9i3/7TN23Bml3NriBCwe82K2TEzKumWPWH; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:27:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408a54e7180acfe276d5d23f846cc2a96e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry I got the page name wrong, it is; www.stifflerscientific.com/vheatdiff.html and has been started. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 18:40:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL2e4tp001224; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:40:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAL2Q1wA018226; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:26:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:39:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6UPStB.A.ecE.4OmYFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi R. Thanks for posting your experimental results. You should consider doing a control experiment. If you have access to a small heat treating furnace, you can heat a pair of those speaker magnets up to about 500C and demag them. Do the same experiment with the dead magnets as your control. Heat them slowly, or they will crack. You can remagnetize them after this, if you have the necessary hardware. K. -----Original Message----- From: R Stiffler [mailto:rstiffler earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:28 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Sorry I got the page name wrong, it is; www.stifflerscientific.com/vheatdiff.html and has been started. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 19:05:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL35UqP027719; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:05:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAL35Sbq027702; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:05:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:05:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:05:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So you think you may have created a temperature difference without doing any "work" ? (You lazy bugger) ;-) Harry R Stiffler wrote: > Sorry I got the page name wrong, it is; > > www.stifflerscientific.com/vheatdiff.html > > and has been started. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 21:27:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL5RT2L028497; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:27:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAL5RR1T028479; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:27:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:27:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F73C caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> From: John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:23:16 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr Stiffler, I have only just read the thread about the Magnetic Effect on H2O, been really busy. I have coresponded previously with Mr Jones & Mr Krivit about my experience with H2O and Magnetic Fields in relation to freezing. I have found that freezing water in a magnetic field increases the rate of freezing. I have also noticed that viscosity is increased to the extent that if the container is too full when placed in the freezer then as it expands it overflows, but, the water is so viscous that it oozes over the edge like cold honey rather than just flow over the edge. The viscosity appears to increase when the container is "seeded" with a large piece of ice from the previous "freeze" event. These observations were made when only a fridge magnet was used underneath a 2ltr plastic container. I am yet to upgrade to a speaker magnet. Now it is getting hot in Australia I will have to try this!!! Will let you know how it goes if anyone is interested. I think the above makes sense :-) Regards, John Rudiger Perth WA -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Stiffler Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 8:44 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water I have a question for the group and will follow up with additional coverage of the research that brings questions like these to the forefront. Assume (2) 150mL Pyrex lab beakers filled with distilled, de-ionized water. Seal both tops of the beakers with Al foil to reduce evaporation. Place one beaker in the center of a ring magnet (we used ones taken from audio woofers), the rating of which is not relevant at this point. Place the second beaker at least a meter from the beaker and the ring magnet. Now let both sit undisturbed for 24 hours. Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach equilibrium with ambient. Additionally the beaker within the magnet has a white precipitate where the other one does not. Before I go further, has anyone done anything similar? *I do not subscribe to the effects of magnetic field on pure water, yet I now have question on that understanding. Thanks... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 20 22:02:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAL62hTR025030; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:02:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAL62e3d024955; Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:02:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:02:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: magnetism and ice Status: O X-Status: This is a repost from 12/14/04. Maybe the team would have found a larger effect on air, as Stiffler seems to have observed. Harry > I believe this is the SCIENCE magazine story on magnetism and the melting > temperature of ice. I found it here: > > http://bric.postech.ac.kr/biotrend/science/science_view.php?nNum=94067 > > > Harry > > ----------- > > Magnets Meddle With Melting > 2004-12-13 > > > In a strong magnetic field, ice melts at a higher temperature than normal, a > team of physicists has discovered. The effect is tiny--no household magnet is > going to stave off the thawing of your freezer contents in a power failure - > but is still a thousand times more than theory predicts. > > With water, water everywhere, one might be forgiven for thinking that > scientists unraveled all its secrets long ago. But water "is a system full of > surprises," says Caltech physicist Kenneth Libbrecht. The latest of those > surprises comes from Hideaki Inaba and his colleagues at Chiba University in > Chiba, east of Tokyo, who studied the effect of strong magnetic fields on the > melting point of ice. Using a refined version of a technique called > differential scanning calorimetry, the team monitored the temperature > difference between the sample and a reference material as the pair were slowly > warmed. As the ice started to melt, it absorbed energy, giving rise to a > telltale temperature difference flagging the melting point. > In the presence of a strong 6 Tesla magnetic field--about four or five times > stronger than the magnetic field inside a standard hospital MRI scanner--the > team found that ice's melting point increased by 5.6 millikelvin, they report > in the 1 December issue of Applied Physics. This result was a surprise: > thermodynamic theory predicts a shift a thousand times smaller. Inaba believes > the answer may lie in the magnetic field's influence on the vibration and > rotation of water molecules, which he argues stabilizes the ice and hikes the > temperature needed to melt it. > > "It looks like an interesting result, and is worth trying to understand," says > Libbrecht. Inaba's work follows the recent discovery by Seiichiro Nakabayashi > and his colleagues at Saitama University in Japan that water's ability to bend > light is also influenced by powerful magnetic fields. The two effects may well > be related, speculates Inaba. Now the researchers need to come up with a > theory that explains them both, says Libbrecht. "Until you have some theory to > pin on it, you just put it on the wild-and-interesting-phenomena shelf," he > says. > > --ANDREW WATSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 05:10:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALD9pKm030821; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:09:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALD9fXg030706; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:09:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y2ByJ32JkXUXvCCrep5WW5ON3sc40UomNFk0EcIXIGpNzvvi0SzQSFY6S+18lrniPVpLampHt0D04xj8wKxMB3yWQhwH1aEHktFSvZwEFdItMGS+CrncX/d09so/KwpGcgglnFXvLPcP3g3t48TZNw7BUuV+RyOY7d4s8A7C/zY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:09:36 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water In-Reply-To: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F73C caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <68A34DFE87D0BE46AF898FFCC65CCF8438F73C caraupermb02.carrier-apac.com.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/21/06, John.Rudiger carrier.utc.com wrote: > Will let you know how it > goes if anyone is interested. Yes, I'm sure we are all interested. My theory is that the field limits the degrees of freedom of movement of the water molecule; and, the mechanical momentum transfers to the ZPF via the magnetic moment of the iron electrons. I hope to have thermal measurements on the Sprain Magmo soon. His motor was recently visited by a PhD in fizziks who initially declared the ou claim "hogwash". His cognitive dissonance occurred when he touched the electromagnet and found it cool then burned his finger on the light bulb load. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 06:27:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALERKb9006905; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:27:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALERGVi006819; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:27:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:27:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Kwv/ogIV66OsuhuyOLFIC9UAhu+PSZ2CtltyNjavs6gWCnNlWNII2fehWZRksUpN; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:27:03 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ad30f6c461381c855c7d396303952256350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From a macro view (time not used in this view) of what is going on thermally, I guess that might be correct. I make no attempt to view this from a quantum level in this initial work, (I'm not qualified for that anyway). I think once one looks at the data and charts that it will become clear what I have seen and where this is going. I don't want to rush until I can show some working math to support this (wrap it up in numbers to make it sound real :-) ) It is going to take almost as long to get the data to the web site as it took too do the work, lest I get someone to help. Anyway keep watching as we will try every day to add to it, (Beware! this will take some load time...) -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic effect on water So you think you may have created a temperature difference without doing any "work" ? (You lazy bugger) ;-) Harry R Stiffler wrote: > Sorry I got the page name wrong, it is; > > www.stifflerscientific.com/vheatdiff.html > > and has been started. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 08:13:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALGA54h010713; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:13:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALFkVia018919; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:46:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:46:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=0BgsJa5N1yWJSjQ67G62qNuIdvBKm5FiElYBrt1MnAv7AIvI5ZWCJs1FmGKUCOBstTG1gvA9g2dXH3TweAoafmdOBpDOsJnGutT4lRk829MGf16A6NKIcz/OhqjNMMHEKgcF2cdfi0ZMbsXfFVxDf4sn0OLJ33nh834eFxTGwK4= ; X-YMail-OSG: _BWBfmgVM1keYPewBYoQghjyLvknGvWYjP.6rTJFdo0crslQt2VvtzmSQVFU1dyoOgHoXLW0jEXEW7Dv.2QuFRIDZBZIhiC_vfd5yCr55JYIZEn0MWgqeg-- Message-ID: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:46:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Goggle going nuclear! Status: O X-Status: Back in March '06, longtime nuclear researcher and promoter Robert Bussard ("warm" fusion) claimed on the fusor.net forum that his company had developed an IEC type of Farnsworth "Fusor" (inertial electrostatic confinement) fusion process ---which is 100,000 times closer to breakeven than present-day designs, excluding Miley's commercial design, which he says is not as close as he is. Last week Bussard gave a speech at Google [seeking additional funding of course] with more details on his results. Kind of. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 09:41:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALHekDS032036; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:40:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALHei0U032019; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:40:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:40:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=TCD1W6yOGzBIdHyWpjI3yiG0KRf7SkrrzYELdqPBtuOWBd8tLyxwiwVGSsCQLQlAEVvVRQX+aZbvLMfBGgOBgjS01pOUSubSFDrkIFHdx5b1u8lEC3a2bcEld/0b4VAnXwrcwZvtBHBr/aQY6rWzq811EHgke9QpNNM0puS+OPU=; X-YMail-OSG: FzhSYgkVM1lgWC.Q8BqiTxFvg2AApQnGOvOSZ07M Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:40:41 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Interesting News About Steorn Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone seen the article below, from www.energynews.com? I thought it added a lot to Steorn's claim that they really have a device that puts out more energy than it takes in (wherever it is that it takes it in from, since there is no input). In addition to the information below, a couple of things that Sean McCarthy, the CEO, has said recently: The rotors of the device operate in two planes, though it is possible, but difficult, to build a device where they operate in one plane. [By the way, I assume he's talking about rotors, but he could be talking about some other medium for moving magnetic fields about] The rotors move in a start-stop mode. When one rotor stops, it transfers the energy to the second rotor. One cycle consists of a gain-loss combination, with the gain being bigger than the loss. The power is additive, so you can't put devices in series to get infinite amounts of power [I may have screwed that one up a bit] Steorn do not know where the energy comes from. They have said, maybe as a shorthand, that it is created, i.e. violates CoE, but McCarthy has clarified that and made it clear that they don't really know. Their largest device to date puts out 550bhp, which seems to rule out measurement error. Nominated Forum Member Visits Steorn CEO Describes a viable company facility with lots of space and lots of money. Inspected two jury member files and later confirmed their existence and credentials. Saw info on manufacturer. by Sterling D. Allan Pure Energy Systems News Copyright © 2006 DUBLIN, IRELAND -- A person from the Steorn forum, who uses the name "crank", was nominated recently by the forum to go visit the Steorn facility in person to meet with Steorn CEO, Sean McCarthy. Steorn made international news in August with their announcement of a free energy device, and a call for a jury of twelve skeptical scientists to validate their claims, to what McCarthy told us is a magnet motor. (Ref.) According to a forum member who brought this meeting to our attention, the purpose of the visit by a forum member, in which McCarthy participates, was to "see at least one product spec and verify the identity of a firm that will be producing the devices." There will apparently be future meetings as well. "Crank" has shared personal information with several people on the forum and is traceable online back to 1998 (people were worried she was a plant). The following is here account, published Nov. 19, 2006 on the Steorn forum. OK, I'm laying my neck on the block now. You can hit me with all you've got I'm just going to tell you what happened, without giving any opinions. I met Sean at 12 today, in the Steorn unit. It's much bigger than I expected, large and rambling, and spread across two floors. For anyone thinking of breaking in - it's like Fort Knox. Not just on the perimeter, but internally. Lots of rooms, with mixtures of computers and engineering stuff. Sean basically allowed me to ask anything I wanted. I wasn't sure how long he was going to give me on the first meeting, so I rushed certain aspects, which I'm now regretting. In the event, we talked etc. for two and a half hours, and he was very open. A few things he said he'd tell me further down the line, when he knew me better. Fair enough. We sat and talked in the room which held all the information on the scientists who'd applied - or at least the short-listed ones. I examined only two files in detail (because of the time constraint that I imagined). Those files contained the complete details on two of the scientists who have signed the contracts. I've researched both online since I came home, and they are as high up the ladder as you can get. He told me who is manufacturing under license, and showed me the relevant section of the documentary (interview with the head of the company just after he'd run the tests which confirmed ou for himself). I've researched online, and found photographs on the (licensed) company website of the person in the documentary, so I can confirm that part. I've seen the managing director of the company in the documentary, demonstrating his own test-rig that he'd built himself. On behalf of Magnatrix I asked who does the cleaning. The cleaning is done by a local woman, who has cleaned units in the Park for years. I've seen a layout of the e-commerce site, and seen a design for one product. It's quite special. I'll be saving my pennies for launch day. That's all I'll say on the subject. Ummmmmmmm....we covered so much ground that it's hard to remember everything. I will be visiting again, and can see more financial stuff and more details of the jurors when I visit. In case you're wondering if they really have Flux3d, yes I saw it on a pc. He showed me the prospectus (not the right word, but I can't remember the technical name for it) that was used when raising finance. He explained that it's a legal requirement in Ireland to have every statement in a prospectus verified and signed off by a lawyer and the MD of the company. The MD then becomes personally liable if any information is found to be false. That's all I can think of at the moment. I'll be visiting again over the next week or so. I asked if it was seeing some juicy whispers that caused him to post the warning, but he said 'no', it had just occurred to him that posters who were not computer-savvy might not realise that whispers aren't invisible to moderators, so he'd better warn everyone up front. Whew! # # # SOURCE: * http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=26243 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 11:30:23 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALJU2EN032114; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALJJsen025277; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:19:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:19:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ujuj2CnJ2dO9KCvBNG/WhL7LCScO8lELYjupsCRst1nHkMmRKeDLIt6AMUcrdpKJSmN07+5cHgI3OtVMh+JyqyXTKL/7GQcD6BqU6+1okHWMo/4MzFZMkcO5coje8pIphI1zj0oLLdWVyOKCxrsNI6eO/lMiQzh/5WzyXda+jcA= ; Message-ID: <20061121191949.70894.qmail web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:19:48 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4561EB3C.2000109 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-CRPaC.A.sKG.ZF1YFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Winterflood wrote: > Paul wrote: > > ... > > I was just looking at a real experiment on flicker > > noise graph of carbon resistor. As you know the > noise > > is relative to 1/f and current. It's dependent on > > current, not DC current. Here's an interesting > quote > > from > > > http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/goo.pdf > > "Carbon composition resistors exhibit > > current-dependent excess noise due to the random > > formation and extinction of macro arcs among > > neighboring carbon granules." > > > > The "macro arcs" sound very interesting > > > > Also, here's another interesting quote, > > http://www.dsprelated.com/showmessage/23702/1.php > > "In most resistors there are two other noises > which > > are far larger than the Johnson noise. There is > the > > generally larger so-called 'shot noise' which is > > proportional to the current through the resistor > and > > which unlike the white [flat] Johnson noise > actually > > gets larger below a certain corner frequency, i.e. > > it's a 1/f noise effect, plus there is also the > larger > > so-called current noise which is proportional to > the > > voltage applied and is usually rated in > uVoltsrms/Volt > > which also rises below a corner frequency, i.e. > also a > > 1/f effect!" > > > > Notice it refers to two causes of shot noise. ... > > Resistors do not exhibit "shot noise" as the term is > standardly applied > in physics. Maybe this guy is referring to flicker > noise as shot noise > because it sounds like "shots" or something. Who > knows! Both of the > noise sources he describes (current dependent and > voltage dependent) > would standardly be referred to as "1/f noise" or > "excess noise" or even > "flicker noise". > > Shot noise on the other hand is generally only > observed when one puts > some sort of an energy barrier in the circuit such > that the electrons > can no longer "sit on the fence" anywhere around the > circuit as they can > in a typical resistor, but must decide which side of > the barrier they > are going to be on. When they gain enough energy to > jump the barrier, > then the granular nature of the current (ie an > integer number of > electrons passing the barrier) becomes evident as > shot noise. > > A typical energy barrier might be a reversed biased > diode for instance > and electrons can be given enough energy to jump the > barrier by various > means such as thermal activation, photo-electric > activation, voltage > breakdown, etc. > > (There was a time when this noise business was a > black art to me and I > would have appreciated answers such as I have been > providing. So maybe > there are others who might be helped by these > clarifications.) > > > 1. Proportional to current. 2. Proportional to > voltage. > > It seems #2 remains unchanged to the amount of > > resistance, whereas #1 changes with resistance. > > ... > > Anyhow, back to the experiment. Since there will > be > > current flowing in the carbon resistor due to > thermal > > noise, it will exhibit more voltage noise ... > > Kinda hard to get "macro arcs" (see your comment > above) at thermal noise > levels of induced voltage don't you think! Just trying to be accurate since those are the exact words the guy used. Regardless, the word "macro" is a relative statement. Relative to electrons such arcs are perhaps macro. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. www2.nextag.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 14:19:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALMItEA019477; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:18:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALMIqpi019439; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:18:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:18:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LkUJuAioYz1nylSXtzcmLVpxVcUfc/Vy3O531IvH7PS2/BerriWBpBbAxMd+QVxWl0yZTXI5Am/N7y5EqWzFmsRFNFlaEPrlVwZxTBMUNqM1pg7VLrl1C5zcXji76/7B1OyzpQAPMhH4s1yLvb+Iu+/OmrVbgAtr9G1k0Bc/xO0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:18:48 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goggle going nuclear! In-Reply-To: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/21/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Last week Bussard gave a speech at Google [seeking additional > funding of course] with more details on his results. Kind of. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606 Gee, 1hr 32min long. Explained at a layman's level. I cut out after 5 minutes. Could you briefly explain what's different or provide another citation. Thanks, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 15:10:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALN9lJg002866; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:09:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALN9jhO002846; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:09:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:09:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <239.1fb85b49.3294e132 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:09:38 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164150578" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5331 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164150578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alternative Self-Sustaining Communities: =20 I have posted below links to two trust companies that I have started to =20 encourage alternative self-sustaining communities: =20 [_A preplanned self-sustaining gated & secure international scholars club=20 house & apartment community trust_ (http://www.rhfweb.com/sclub.html) ]=20 =20 [_Private & Secret Society Trust For Highly Ethical Scholars, Scientists,=20 Intellectuals, Artists, & Refined Cultures =A9._ (http://www.rhfweb.com/ps.= html) =20 ] =20 A preplanned self-sustaining gated and secure international scholars club =20 house and apartment community trust =20 A preplanned self-sustaining gated and secure international scholars club =20 house, community, and trust should be set up and offered at universities wor= ld =20 wide and interstellar, which offers services to members of the club and =20 trust such as residences and dormitories, shared food, health, transportatio= n, =20 media, entertainment and security services. The Scholars club trust shoul= d=20 selects its members by invitation and application from retired and currentl= y=20 employed professors, scientists, engineers, business men, craftsman, artist= s,=20 celebrities, and other professionals to unite them to live together in gate= d=20 and secure self-sustaining pre-planned communities, to support and educate=20 each other. In this way retired professionals and scholars may yet continu= e=20 their professional life on a part time basis while residing at the scholars= club=20 educating and working with young scholars world wide; and they may also=20 manage and maintain the scholars club trust, club houses, and self sustain= ing=20 communities. =20 A preplanned scholars club gated and secure self sustaining apartment =20 complex may contain: =20 1. Individual and family apartments, studios and dormitories with optional =20 fireplaces for up to 500 members with a mini-lobby and media center on each=20= =20 floor. The style of architecture of the buildings should be very professio= nal,=20 scholarly and comfortable such as typical ivy league dorms with an Tudor=20 Storybook feel and look. =20 2. A shared community center which contains a shared cafeteria and other foo= d=20 services, shared library, lobby, entertainment, media, health, =20 transportation, and security services. =20 3. Shared co-op forests, gardens and farmlands which may use advanced =20 pressurized enclosed air domes and outdoor hydroponic farms and vertical =20 hydroponic nets on farmlands to grow more food faster, and cleaner (toxin, =20= virus, and=20 pollutant free) so that one acre of land with hydroponics and nets may yiel= d=20 what 20 acres would yield without them. Self sustaining water collection=20 technologies may be used which collect rain water, well water, and water fr= om=20 air using dehumidifiers and filter the water to make the water safe and=20 healthy to use. Self sustaining energy technologies such as pressurized hy= drogen=20 from water, solar, and wind should also be used. All waste in the community= =20 should be incinerate and reused as fertilizer. =20 4. Shared underground emergency fallout shelter =20 5. Gated and secure fencing with security guards and surveillance monitors =20 and protective healing energy force fields. No guns should be permitted o= n=20 the grounds and in the community other than those locked up in the communit= y=20 center for the community militia and those used by the security guards, so=20 that the community may be safe and secure from all gun accidents and threat= s. =20 Members who feel that they need a gun to protect them can register with the= =20 trust their own personal security guard who may carry a gun and who may the= n=20 accompany them. =20 I have partitioned the trust community centers into 4 separate community =20 centers with 4 separate militia and security groups for each community cent= er,=20 and with one community center per apartment hall, so that if one of the =20 community centers is damaged or taken over by hostile groups the other three= =20 community centers which have shared resources and militia self defense tech= nologies=20 may yet still be available. All four community centers with their separate= =20 security guards and militia may monitor each other to ensure that they are=20 all performing their duties properly. All security guards may also be=20 monitored by another security guard in an enclosed room on the trust ground= s and off=20 the grounds to ensure that the security guards perform their duties. There= =20 should be 2 security guards at each entrance to the trust buildings and eac= h=20 entrance and the rest of the buildings and grounds should detect any firear= ms =20 or explosives on any person by means of a chemical sensor that detects gun=20 powder and other explosives or by means of sound and x-rays. =20 Where stun guns are legal, members may be allowed to have non-lethal stun =20 guns in their rooms. If members of the trust still feel that they need a gun= of =20 their own in their room for self defense, some trusts could build a small =20 gun case in each room, that may hold a gun, but once the gun is moved from t= he =20 case an alarm is given off, and security guards would then be sent to the=20 room immediately but this would not prevent gun accidents or threats in the= room=20 or nearby it, and hence should be discouraged. Part of the goal of the=20 trust is to make a perfectly safe place in which to live at all times, and=20= it=20 seems that professional security guards and a militia should be enough to=20 protect local members in most cases. =20 Member residences may also have sound proofing foam coated with emf =20 reflecting and heat shielding nano-carbon paint placed in the walls to pro= vide more=20 privacy for the members. Members may also hire a community security =20 professional to monitor them to protect their security and safety while on a= nd off the=20 club grounds. =20 6. Members may pay for part of their membership fees by means of volunteer =20 work. Members may also obtain life time memberships. If trust funds permit,=20 when a member has hardship problems member fees and dues may be postponed t= o a=20 later date or may be pay for by the trust. =20 7. No dogs should be allowed on the trust and community grounds to avoid dog= =20 bark noise and other hazards though quite and harmless animals such as birds= ,=20 fish, and cats may be allowed in certain zoned areas only. =20 8. Member neighborhood zones and separate club houses may be offered to =20 members of different classes and cultures as defined by the trustees who set= up =20 the trust. =20 9. The parties of the trust contract reserves the right to select its =20 associates and members. =20 10. Rest-in-peace to awaken another day cryogenic services and cryogenic =20 chambers located underground on the trust grounds may also be offered to mem= bers =20 of the trust and club. =20 11. Advanced interstellar space travel and transportation services may also=20= =20 be offered and located on trust grounds. =20 12. Advanced and enhanced healing, eternal youth, and extended life services= =20 and technologies may also be offered to members. =20 13. New legal identities may also be provided to members when requested. US= A=20 and English common law trusts may offer their members new legal identities.= =20 14. A laboratory, factory, barns, and arts and crafts centers may also be =20 placed on the trust grounds to make basic goods such as rope, cloth, cloth= ing,=20 plastic from sugar cane, metal from nano-carbons, electronic parts, and=20 basic metal and plastic tools from a blacksmith and tool machines that may =20= be=20 needed by the trust to make it self sustaining. =20 14. Depicted below is a sample schematic of a self sustaining gated and =20 secure scholars club apartment complex, farmlands, and grounds that could h= ouse=20 up to 500 members located on a piece of land 1 quarter square mile in size:= =20 =20 =20 The picture below represents the above buildings but the community center =20 building in the center in the above pictures has been broken up into four =20 separate community centers at each corner of the building for each residence= hall=20 that looks like a tower below: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Other trusts that may work in conjunction with this trust: =20 [_Private & Secret Society Trust For Highly Ethical Scholars, Intellectuals= ,=20 Artists, & Refined Cultures =A9._ (http://www.rhfweb.com/ps.html) ]=20 -------------------------------1164150578 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Alternative Self-Sustaining Communities:
 
I have posted below links to two trust companies that I have started to= =20 encourage alternative self-sustaining communities:
 
 
[Private & Secret Society= Trust=20 For Highly Ethical Scholars, Scientists, Intellectuals, Artists, &=20 Refined Cultures =A9. ]=20

A preplanned self-sustaining gated and secure international scholars c= lub=20 house and apartment community trust

A preplanned self-sustaining gated and secure international scholars club= =20 house, community, and trust should be set up and offered at universities wor= ld=20 wide and interstellar, which offers services to members of  the club an= d=20 trust such as residences and dormitories, shared food, health, transportatio= n,=20 media, entertainment and security services.   The Scholars club trust=20 should selects its members by invitation and application from retired and=20 currently employed professors, scientists, engineers, business men, craftsma= n,=20 artists, celebrities, and other professionals to unite them to live together= in=20  gated and secure self-sustaining pre-planned communities, to support a= nd=20 educate each other.  In this way retired professionals and scholars may= yet=20 continue their professional life on a part time basis while residing at the=20 scholars club educating and working with young scholars world wide; and they= may=20 also manage and maintain the scholars club trust,  club houses, and sel= f=20 sustaining communities.=20

A preplanned scholars club gated and secure self sustaining apartment=20 complex may contain:=20

1. Individual and family apartments, studios and dormitories with optiona= l=20 fireplaces for up to 500 members with a mini-lobby and media center on each=20 floor.  The style of architecture of the buildings should be very=20 professional, scholarly and comfortable such as typical ivy league dorms wit= h an=20 Tudor Storybook feel and look.=20

2. A shared community center which contains a shared cafeteria and other=20= food=20 services,  shared  library, lobby, entertainment, media, health,=20 transportation, and security services.=20

3. Shared co-op forests, gardens and farmlands which may use advanced=20 pressurized enclosed  air domes and outdoor hydroponic farms and vertic= al=20 hydroponic nets on farmlands to grow more food faster, and cleaner (toxin,=20 virus, and pollutant free) so that one acre of land with hydroponics and net= s=20 may yield what 20 acres would yield without them.   Self sustaining wat= er=20 collection technologies may be used which collect rain water, well water, an= d=20 water from air using dehumidifiers and filter the water to make the water sa= fe=20 and healthy to use.  Self sustaining energy technologies such as=20 pressurized hydrogen from water, solar, and wind should also be used. All wa= ste=20 in the community should be incinerate and reused as fertilizer.=20

4. Shared underground emergency fallout shelter=20

5. Gated and secure fencing with security guards and surveillance monitor= s=20 and protective healing  energy force fields.  No guns should be=20 permitted on the grounds and in the community other than those locked up in=20= the=20 community center for the community militia and those used by the security=20 guards, so that the community may be safe and secure from all gun accidents=20= and=20 threats.  Members who feel that they need a gun to protect them can=20 register with the trust their own personal security guard who may carry= a=20 gun and who may then accompany them.=20

I have partitioned the trust community centers into 4 separate community=20 centers with 4 separate militia and security groups for each community=20 center, and with one community center per apartment hall, so that if one of=20= the=20 community centers is damaged or taken over by hostile groups the other three= =20 community centers which have shared resources and militia self defense=20 technologies may yet still be available.  All four community centers wi= th=20 their separate security guards and militia may monitor each other to ensure=20= that=20 they are all performing their duties properly.  All security guards may= =20 also be monitored by another security guard in an enclosed room on the trust= =20 grounds and off the grounds to ensure that the security guards perform=20 their duties.  There should be 2 security guards at each entrance to th= e=20 trust buildings and each entrance and the rest of the buildings and grounds=20 should detect any firearms  or explosives on any person by means of a=20 chemical sensor that detects gun powder and other explosives or by means of=20 sound and x-rays.=20

Where stun guns are legal, members may be allowed to have non-lethal stun= =20 guns in their rooms. If members of the trust still feel that they need a gun= of=20 their own  in their room for self defense, some trusts could build a sm= all=20 gun case in each room, that may hold a gun, but once the gun is moved from t= he=20 case an alarm is given off, and security guards would then be sent to the ro= om=20 immediately but this would not prevent gun accidents or threats in the room=20= or=20 nearby it, and hence should be discouraged.  Part of the goal of the tr= ust=20 is to make a perfectly safe place in which to live at all times, and it seem= s=20 that professional security guards and a militia should be enough to protect=20 local members in most cases.=20

Member residences may also have sound proofing foam coated with emf=20 reflecting  and heat shielding nano-carbon paint placed in the walls to= =20 provide more privacy for the members. Members may also hire a community secu= rity=20 professional to monitor them to protect their security and safety while on a= nd=20 off the club grounds.=20

6. Members may pay for part of their membership fees by means of voluntee= r=20 work. Members may also obtain life time memberships. If trust funds permit,=20= when=20 a member has hardship problems member fees and dues may be postponed to a la= ter=20 date or  may be pay for by the trust.  =20

7. No dogs should be allowed on the trust and community grounds to avoid=20= dog=20 bark noise and other hazards though quite and harmless animals such as birds= ,=20 fish, and cats may be allowed in certain zoned areas only.=20

8. Member neighborhood zones and separate club houses may be offered to=20 members of different classes and cultures as defined by the trustees who set= up=20 the trust.  =20

9. The parties of the trust contract reserves the right to select=20= its=20 associates and members.=20

10. Rest-in-peace to awaken another day cryogenic services and cryogenic=20 chambers located underground on the trust grounds may also be offered to mem= bers=20 of the trust and club.=20

11. Advanced interstellar space travel and transportation services may al= so=20 be offered and located on trust grounds.=20

12. Advanced and enhanced healing, eternal youth, and extended life servi= ces=20 and technologies may also be offered to members.=20

13. New legal identities may also be provided to members when requested.=20  USA and English common law trusts may offer their members new legal=20 identities.=20

14. A laboratory, factory, barns, and arts and crafts centers may also be= =20 placed on the trust grounds to make basic goods  such as rope, cloth,=20 clothing, plastic from sugar cane, metal from nano-carbons, electronic parts= ,=20 and basic metal and plastic tools from a blacksmith and tool machines that m= ay=20 be needed by the trust to make it self sustaining.=20

14. Depicted below is a sample schematic of a self sustaining gated and=20 secure scholars club apartment complex, farmlands, and grounds that cou= ld=20 house up to 500 members located on a piece of land 1 quarter square mile in=20 size:=20

=20

=20

The picture below represents the above buildings but the community center= =20 building in the center  in the above pictures has been broken up into f= our=20 separate community centers at each corner of the building for each residence= =20 hall that looks like a tower below:=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Other trusts that may work in conjunction with this trust:=20

[Private & Secret Society T= rust=20 For Highly Ethical Scholars, Intellectuals, Artists, & Refined Cult= ures=20 =A9. ]

-------------------------------1164150578-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 15:47:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kALNlRqI007823; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:47:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kALNlPDY007793; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:47:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:47:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=uZh0/+caxBI0PwdfwkbffUf24LgnQqOb9Qvs/VmT7QPVoO+q9tOh4M3GZ+xmMXYcXToGWYrmqBUofSNntDXwgS4UBLqEoVoQUVlelMlQKQuXYdtsssv2PAAQfRjWYHPuiMG4egiZBPDpoHLaC4+zFdTlOo3xuYBy/G9HhMYCTI0= ; X-YMail-OSG: J23Z4oYVM1kNrojhh6RQDdPDyLsGzTIn76kYgnyFql8KJjIS18iJCDDxb5lk5ySqWoJnB_3yyg4Sl4wWJlgOkWNahczeJRgzlsL6Hs1pMN7XGWBvpR_tKQ-- Message-ID: <009601c70dc7$636365e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goggle going nuclear! Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:47:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Could you briefly explain what's different or provide another > citation. Well, it is remarkable that here is a guy seeking $200 million for R&D who can't put up a website to provide detailed textual backup, experimental results and real numbers. This could mean that he does not want the details known, for several possible reasons, including they do not support his overly-optimistic conclusions. It is boron "fission" technically as the boron is split by the impact of a proton. The rap on this kind of Fusor has always been extreme losses from Bremsstrahlung, which he claims is solved. Others say the problem is not solvable and Bussard is dreaming. However, there could be a narrow resonance level which others have missed and which employs the "Coulomb-well slingshot effect". Personally, I will be convinced when IEC experts like George Miley buy into it, which it seems has not happened yet. But if ITER or any Tokomak is worth investing 10 billion, then this is worth investing 100 billion, which is not at all a compliment, as it only says something about ITER being a gigantic waste of resources. Google can afford to burn up some of their extra capital on this kind of venture. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 23:37:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAM7LXjd007581; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:21:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAM7LT9J007491; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:21:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:21:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061121232503.1b431258 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:25:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6YppeB.A.n0B.3p_YFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: faq are now posted Status: O X-Status: FAQ to the New Energy Times "Extraordinary Evidence" article is now posted at http://www.thegalileoproject.org/FAQ.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 21 23:52:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAM7pwsD007423; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:51:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAM7ptjA007383; Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:51:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:51:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20061121235502.0298b650 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 23:55:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2bYkMB.A.AzB.ZGAZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: TEST Status: O X-Status: Do subject lines starting in all caps disappear when I send messages to Vortex? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 06:12:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMEBri6007699; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:11:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMEBomZ007663; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:11:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:11:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c70e3d$c2d0b480$8c8f603f u5x1p2> From: "lgarrett" To: Subject: [Vo]: TEEN GOES NUCLEAR He creates fusion in his Oakland Township home Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 07:54:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C70E0B.755544A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C70E0B.755544A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C70E0B.755544A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C70E0B.755544A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20061119/NEWS03/6111906= 39 ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C70E0B.755544A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20061119/NE= WS03/611190639 ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C70E0B.755544A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C70E0B.755544A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="TEEN GOES NUCLEAR He creates fusion in his Oakland Township home.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEEN GOES NUCLEAR He creates fusion in his Oakland Township home.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20061119/NEWS= 03/611190639 [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20061119/NEWS03/6= 11190639 Modified=3DE06559653D0EC70116 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C70E0B.755544A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 08:10:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMGA7B6029472; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:10:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMG5StU025190; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:05:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:05:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=hMLf58ikHpyJiaT9Pepnvs4+7IBc+T4uwUjEC2i9iDoBqPAQijwopE+Hom4FBgQye/WM/nd5urRqaNc7RiOz+YM2Wz4lakRD9Z07JpB8oWQDsfo0ZF4mfGZyYJY2i1RgAZ1G2UxtLyee//5nFZKNi679/QueeQlJxPNNniAlc64= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:05:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A New Spin on Consciousness Status: O X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0208/0208068.pdf "Spin-Mediated Consciousness Theory and Its Experimental Support by Evidence of Biological, Chemical and Physical Non-local Effects Huping Hu & Maoxin Wu (Dated: November 16, 2006) Biophysics Consulting Group, 25 Lubber Street, Stony Brook, New York 11790, USA ABSTRACT A novel theory of consciousness is proposed in this paper. We postulate that consciousness is intrinsically connected to quantum spin since the latter is the origin of quantum effects in both Bohm and Hestenes quantum formulism and a fundamental quantum process associated with the structure of space-time. That is, spin is the "mindpixel." The unity of mind is presumably achieved by entanglement of the mind-pixels. Applying these ideas to the particular structures and dynamics of the brain, we have developed a detailed model of quantum consciousness. Experimentally, we have contemplated from the perspective of our theory on the possibility of entangling the quantum entities inside the brain with those in an external anaesthetic sample and carried out experiments toward that end. We found that applying magnetic pulses to the brain when a general anaesthetic sample was placed in between caused the brain to feel the effect of said anaesthetic for several hours after the treatment as if the test subject had actually inhaled the same. The said effect is consistently reproducible on all subjects tested. We further found that drinking water exposed to magnetic pulses, laser light, microwave or even flashlight when an anaesthetic sample was placed in between also causes consistently reproducible brain effects in various degrees. Further, through additional experiments we have verified that the said brain effect is the consequence of quantum entanglement between quantum entities inside the brain and those of the chemical substance under study induced by the photons of the magnetic pulses or applied lights. With the aids of high-precision instruments, we have more recently studied nonlocal effects in simple physics system such as a liquid. We have found that the pH value, temperature and gravity of a liquid such as water in the detecting reservoirs can be nonlocally affected through manipulating a liquid in a remote reservoir quantum-entangled with the former. In particular, the pH value changes in the same direction as that being manipulated; the temperature can change against that of local environment; and the gravity can change against local gravity. Again, these non-local effects are all reproducible and have practical applications in many areas. We suggest that they are mediated by quantum entanglement between nuclear and/or electron spins in treated water and discuss the profound implications of these results." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 09:29:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMHTP0M032530; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:29:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMHTJ3u032453; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:29:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:29:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=LIWVz/lP1hrfqFTSf1YQ81G/kUKEUUrXBECKMjNqptfSwqCP728ka4sZYQ3OMKoDkvmZm6x1cwq3SKvXbJlE4HzbHpaW0drll2CaAi9IIXAItcO8H0tHijLqHhI72BlfR9sXYkM65aj19JKQBbzQiY4aOhnTjMx7hnTduGTdXLs= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:29:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <62NxT.A.p6H.tjIZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Correa Patent Issued Status: O X-Status: United States Patent 7,053,576 Correa , et al. May 30, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Energy conversion systems Abstract This invention relates to apparatus for the conversion of massfree energy into electrical or kinetic energy, which uses in its preferred form a transmitter and a receiver both incorporating Tesla coils, the distal ends of whose secondary windings are co-resonant and connected to plates of a chamber, preferably evacuated or filled with water, such that energy radiated by the transmitter may be picked up by the receiver, the receiver preferably further including a pulsed plasma reactor driven by the receiver coil and a split phase motor driven by the reactor. Preferably the reactor operates in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode, and the motor is an inertially damped drag motor. The invention also extends to apparatus in which an otherwise driven plasma reactor operating in pulsed abnormal gas discharge mode in turn used to drive an inertially damped drag motor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventors: Correa; Paulo N. (Concord, Ontario, CA), Correa; Alexandra N. (Concord, Ontario, CA) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 10:20:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMIK2lc017522; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMIAY0N007178; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:10:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=vatAzlFuEqGlbvuaXilQXKmMMtInYVAPVxPEBNUJLvBRBetNorrVCyWVhLJcLXGjceEDYSFfUhnZZRNct9fAvxdp1ukcCW8J7xzUw0moqm1Jr/ms4h2wkwo/ZFZkm3IfjFFKtT61FeqgZRMODO66LElaATKGT9oDq6nFXsm/18s= ; X-YMail-OSG: OzbM5Z0VM1m5JnxZndqSgST6GaWmwdUMQtgDF8GkoUccHjSeZYg5MR0TNBuw_CHCZTVQczTe5zDgVhvxems9xTglHhUQZRI5KCdkrmEXPOvxKJP0F6btbA-- Message-ID: <003b01c70e61$7c668aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:10:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Subject: Beyond Water-Arcs Most readers of vortex are familiar with the water-arc explosion experiments of the Graneau's (Ha! another one of those "names-that-work" = Graneau = "big water"). This is perhaps the most solid of OU results which is out there, but apparently the big-water-brothers have never been lured into applying for the Randi-prize, knowing that the clown could never pay-up anyway. Two compilations of papers are available on the IE website: https://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/secure/FORMS/onlinestore.html One important paper is entitled "Solar-energy liberation from water by electric arcs" but the "solar energy" part is really little more than homage - an "appeasement" to traditional science - as there is arguably zero attributable "solar energy" involved in the experiment, and the authors are understandably grasping at straws as to the real energy source - which is probably ZPE. Authors: GEORGE HATHAWAY, PETER GRANEAU and NEAL GRANEAU Abstract This paper reports progress in an experimental investigation, started in the Hathaway laboratory in 1994, dealing with the liberation of intermolecular bond energy from ordinary water by means of an arc discharge. Photographic evidence of fog generation and explosion during the arcing period is included. A new fog accelerator is described and a table of results of the kinetic energies of fog jets is provided. A renewable water energy cycle is outlined. The fog kinetic energy has been found to be greater than the difference between the capacitor input energy and the heat losses. Given energy conservation, the only external energy input that can account for the fog kinetic energy is solar heat from the atmosphere. END of Abstract. And unfortunately this work has not advanced much since then. Where do we go from here? Most of this work was done a decade ago and has been verified by others to varying degrees - but not yet put into a workable scheme involving a viable "prime mover", useful for home power or automotive. Part of the problem is the variability in gasoline pricing. It is so easily manipulated in the USA that the current low cost (post election blessing, soon to disappear) can lead any observer into a state of false complacency. This would be a huge error, on the national level, and one solution is to help to implement an alternative energy scheme in a country where they really need it - Asia or some wealthier European country like Germany. And then if successful, force it down the throats of the PertroPACs. The following is a tentative plan to put forward a [major advance] of this Graneau water-arc finding - along with other advances into operation in a complicated scheme by the end of the decade. It involves the very same strong capacitive discharge of Graneau - but "not exactly" into a water fog, as they did. Instead the capacitive discharge is made into a quasi-fuel - a liquid spray consisting of vaporized medium grade HOOH (40-50 % peroxide in water, with or without up to 5% hydrocarbon dissolved in the mixture in a colloidal form). The resultant steam is used to drive a simple one stage turbine/generator. Since the monopropellant turbine does not need air, the Carnot efficiency can be extraordinarily high, making up for the far lower heat content of the "fuel." A formula which has been found to produce about 5 times more net energy than what is recycled into the arc-discharge, and very adequate for automotive use, consists of HOOH 40%, Water 45% and colloidal carbon 5%. The "effective" Carnot efficiency is at least 65%, which is actually above the theoretical limit for the existing temperature spread, which is low. The steam exhaust is barely steam at all, and exits at about 300 degrees F. There is some CO2 but comparatively little. The carbon can be provided in the form of pulverized coal dust, made from low grade and low sulfur demineralized coal, even peat. This cleaned coal is available for $40 ton raw, or ~$85/ton after pulverization and passing through dry demineralization process. The same scheme will actually work with no carbon at all, but requires about twice as much volume of fuel as with this minimum 5% mix. This minimal mix works out to slightly over 4 cents per pound for the carbon. The final fuel is fairly high density, compared to gasoline and weighs 9 pounds per gallon. The 5% carbon content should add only about three cents per gallon to the final manufacturing cost of 25 cents/gal, of which 10 cents is for the two kilowatts/gallon of electrical input (nighttime rate or self-generated using some of the fuel) and the rest of the cost is for capital, labor, and taxes - no profit is added as this is for a "coop" or institution, in a petro-poor or developing country. The originator of one of the basic "enabling" ideas - Delchav - uses raw sugar instead of carbon, which costs about ten times more per pound. Here is a website outlining an older version of this general idea - along with other pieces of the puzzle - which is now considerably improved by a direct process for making HOOH from air and water, but using coal dust instead of sugar: http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/peroxide.html Basically the idea is to have small cooperative refueling stations, not unlike the current gasoline station except more numerous and operated like a farmer's coop - but where the a midgrade HOOH is actually produced onsite, using nighttime power rates - and only in enough quantity (several thousand gallons per day) for the next day's sales to coop members who have specially designed hybrid autos. Imagine this in Germany, say or India, where a taxi-fleet or postal service or commercial delivery fleet is doing this and saving millions over imported gasoline. This fuel will be required in substantial volumetric quantity as it will take about 4 times more fuel by volume than gasoline, for use in a hybrid car- but the raw materials for it consist only of air(O2) and water and electricity. So to go on an eighty mile round trip, where the Prius would use about two gallons of gasoline this alternative vehicle would require 8 gallons (four times more by volume), which is a small disadvantage for space - but compared to the substantial monetary savings and substantial reduction in CO2 - it is highly desirable to a certain section of the population (the coop or fleet members) or a needy country. The two gallons used by the Prius - at $10/gallon in the year 2010- when this scheme could be first implemented, should be compared to a cost of the replacement fuel - of 8 gallons at 20-25 cents per gallon, plus whatever taxes are fair. Pricing is almost too politically motivated to estimate outside any particular country, but it should be noted that Germany, with little domestic petroleum is already paying triple the US price for petrol (but much of that goes to taxes). Bottom line estimate - in 2010 a commuter or postal van in Germany might see a net savings of 50% minimum over diesel - yet still provide the same level of infrastructure taxes (for roads). If gasoline does go up beyond the $10 gallon there, which some fear - then the yearly saving would easily pay for the hybrid vehicle itself. This is doable. But it would take a national commitment to pull it off. That will never happen in the USA due to PetroPAC dollars --- but what about in wealthy but Petro-poor countries like Germany ? Maybe I should start brushing up on my Deutsch ... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 11:57:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMJusga015407; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:56:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMJunQO015337; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:56:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=vLmFAOB4oohg2tnXDl2nm0N0YbQj4EziY9aZuT2gjLp6vOElWpRD6V0ULj47QnuSVd/OV24S04AHWBpQ03h4UeoI6Ly0bf8Gjlf3/kfD23IDRr/K6ogODD6qe94vSfmtHYDILgIEiPVKVcXUFnF6xzx/ixqivhdxjQsvNP7C/hc= ; X-YMail-OSG: Y17YppwVM1kaUGWmImGHZSRM22.8kaMRmIIcROUbRq8WN0Fldg39WAVTKRCD1nsRZc9xWQbZsz9rb8pF199fSHQ8De9Irf4UDTU7oiEQo1LtTb2SQxhs3Q-- Message-ID: <005701c70e6c$9bb42600$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003b01c70e61$7c668aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:30:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Beyond Water-Arcs Status: O X-Status: > Subject: Beyond Water-Arcs First correction: > A formula which has been found to produce about 5 times more net > energy than what is recycled into the arc-discharge, and very > adequate for automotive use, consists of HOOH 40%, Water 45% and > colloidal carbon 5%. Should be Water 55% BTW did you notice from extending the details of Terry Blanton's post that many folks seem to be swimming in the same "meme pool" ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 13:30:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMLU219029904; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:30:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMLQ7jZ026393; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:26:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:26:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:25:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <40g9m2p3m8if4ovpcmfe35c7bb4c8mefu3 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.66.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:25:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAMLPxnQ026340 Resent-Message-ID: <5g3FOD.A.KcG.uBMZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Vortex postings Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill, Could we have a one line entry pointing to the archive appended to the bottom of each post? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 13:46:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMLkCXL016607; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:46:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMLk8PL016532; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:46:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:46:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CO5li0H/mkcq3q5mJbMPLuJPZFCasGL4LvUo+oAqij1W2OYixjDdkusn/H+auIdGHIjy/zfzPUpkv1VamYumwvuzX4w0vDhpONUsCko6knTWWp25iR72zPAbiL/B71e5AFWkwB9XCXwA5nYVCawoO6pu7hnilly6J/OyOuD0CRw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:45:33 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Beyond Water-Arcs In-Reply-To: <005701c70e6c$9bb42600$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003b01c70e61$7c668aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <005701c70e6c$9bb42600$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/22/06, Jones Beene wrote: > BTW did you notice from extending the details of Terry Blanton's > post that many folks seem to be swimming in the same "meme pool" ? It's a long but very interesting paper. Coincidentally (not really, doesn't exist), I am reading Burdett's "Bangkok 8" which speaks much of Thai Buddhism and provides a philosophical view of the subject. http://www.powells.com/fromtheauthor/burdett.html Highly recommended. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 22 14:39:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAMMcYGG021231; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:38:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAMMcWXE021174; Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:38:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:38:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=KAMcCiQqV4qmOJEQI6RnrpW1EwScmz18pacH8p7xgPaYc8Rjrn9PyuLyhPABJ5QhUmYVfzbJaH8RHAZwrPo8ULlKwoEGdhu0lw2W38QxIQEA6M2e5NGugb/BR69TlM6TxKsJVhBF8lzxVGWr8D6HJ9nTSz0TRXphim93/V+7IOY= ; X-YMail-OSG: g5TQiToVM1kZUsOh9OUqGlfu5PSBACyx6R_SKzJy2X1dEWSocPORn17F1pbI1Mzrsxt2jur27q3eFbfheP005t3tqXzK8U7u_c_63ddWTq.1P1IVWlR7Eg-- Message-ID: <00a001c70e86$eeeaa4b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003b01c70e61$7c668aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <005701c70e6c$9bb42600$6401a8c0@NuDell> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:38:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Beyond Water-Arcs Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > It's a long but very interesting paper. Coincidentally (not > really, > doesn't exist), I am reading Burdett's "Bangkok 8" which speaks > much > of Thai Buddhism and provides a philosophical view of the > subject. Hey you should have waited to recommend it --- loved the start of that book but be prepared for a huge letdown towards the end. If you thought 'suspension of disbelief' was strained severely by having an otherwise fine plot turn on a peanut allergy, then this is much worse: painfully bad, and it totally wiped out what could have been a remarkable book. ...how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so to speak.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 05:23:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANDNXD5026915; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:23:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANDNQ5f026688; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:23:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:23:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i0xzBwJn3eL2uuO7Yfif14SuKPLIKAadCwgXW3PIItQyy+5S/77dDb7OmfvcFRxYxjeo0EEORj9isW/5fuLt/PGVUtP+3GRgp0GOARDjM5Q8W8C++1m12UGrSkl4ScB26oqaqTgoFCbkMZLoOt0jFKKLO0Ml/11LH+UwJROM1DU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:23:25 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Beyond Water-Arcs In-Reply-To: <00a001c70e86$eeeaa4b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <003b01c70e61$7c668aa0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <005701c70e6c$9bb42600$6401a8c0 NuDell> <00a001c70e86$eeeaa4b0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <1axBeC.A.7gG.NDaZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/22/06, Jones Beene wrote: > ...how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so to speak.... I hate those endings! Wait. Maybe that's answered in the sequel "Bangkok Tattoo"? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 06:25:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANEPXrA007590; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:25:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANEPUiZ007540; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:25:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=F/9R28nRpiDzHivzTTEh5qAOaLhavHtWCM/gCbFZ2V0ef/Rkd0fgf6gM12Nu6+W9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:25:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94051aa346832d385b8591823206bf31db1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.161 Resent-Message-ID: <5wAlx.A.m1B.Z9aZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum Between Concentric Spheres-Cylinders Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Polarized Vacuum (PV) in charged concentric spherical/cylindrical capacitors? Does a charged section of coaxial cable change weight? Would a laser beam traversing the high field region between highly charged spheres-cylinders-plates show a lower light speed? c = 1/[(eo*uo)^1/2] Fred http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf Spherical Capacitor: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html Cylindrical Capacitor: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly: Plate #1 had an area five times that of plate "2 and seventeen times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage applied it was pulled downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the upward force on single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-) polarity it had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2 Nt). http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/3.html "If the transmission line is coaxial in construction, the characteristic impedance follows a different equation:" "In both equations, identical units of measurement must be used in both terms of the fraction. If the insulating material is other than air (or a vacuum), both the characteristic impedance and the propagation velocity will be affected. The ratio of a transmission line's true propagation velocity and the speed of light in a vacuum is called the velocity factoof that line." "Velocity factor is purely a factor of the insulating material's relative permittivity (otherwise known as its dielectric constant), defined as the ratio of a material's electric field permittivity to that of a pure vacuum. The velocity factor of any cable type -- coaxial or otherwise -- may be calculated quite simply by the following formula: " Velocity Factor = v/c = 1/(k)^1/2 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Polarized Vacuum (PV) in charged concentric spherical/cylindrical capacitors?
 
Does a charged section of coaxial cable change weight?
 
Would a laser beam traversing the high field region between
highly charged spheres-cylinders-plates show a lower light speed?
 
c = 1/[(eo*uo)^1/2]
 
Fred
 
 
Spherical Capacitor:
 
 
Cylindrical Capacitor:
 
 
Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly:
 
Plate #1 had an area five times that of plate "2 and seventeen
times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage applied it was pulled
downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the upward force on
single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-) polarity it
had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2 Nt).
 
 
"If the transmission line is coaxial in construction, the characteristic impedance follows a different equation:"

"In both equations, identical units of measurement must be used in both terms of the fraction. If the insulating material is other than air (or a vacuum), both the characteristic impedance and the propagation velocity will be affected. The ratio of a transmission line's true propagation velocity and the speed of light in a vacuum is called the velocity factoof that line."

"Velocity factor is purely a factor of the insulating material's relative permittivity (otherwise known as its dielectric constant), defined as the ratio of a material's electric field permittivity to that of a pure vacuum. The velocity factor of any cable type -- coaxial or otherwise -- may be calculated quite simply by the following formula: "

Velocity Factor = v/c = 1/(k)^1/2

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 07:53:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANFr7Hw004086; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:53:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANFr1Jt004016; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:53:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:53:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:47:55 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164296875" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5032 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <1qdtR.A.f-.dPcZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Frederick Sparber on coax cables Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164296875 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "If the transmission line is coaxial in construction, the characteristic Impedance follows a different equation:" Frederick Sparber writes. "In both equations, identical units of measurement must be used in both terms of the fraction. If the insulating material is other than air (or a vacuum), both the characteristic impedance and the propagation velocity will be effected. The ratio of a transmission line's true propagation velocity and the Speed of light in a vacuum is called the velocity factor that line." "Velocity factor is purely a factor of the insulating material's relative permittivity (otherwise known as its dielectric constant), defined as the ratio of a material's electric field permittivity to that of a pure vacuum. The velocity factor of any cable type -- coaxial or otherwise -- may be calculated quite simply by the following formula: " Velocity Factor = v/c = 1/(k)^1/2 ............................... Frederick, if you understand coax cables then you understand the process of energy flow. d You also understand how mechanical waves propagate through a medium. I short you understand how all energy flows. You have not, however, asked the right question Where you have not connected the dots is that energy flows through a series of quantum transitions. This flow or energy down a coax is similar to the flow of energy during a quantum jump. The same physical laws apply. The energy stuck in matter is similar to a standing wave in a coax cable. The phasing of that energy results in the effect of special relativity. ref The General Journal of Physics. _http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf_ (http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic.pdf) The force produced by the stuck energy produces the gravitational field of matter. ref my home page. _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html) Real progress can be made if you take the leap and understand that a quantum jump occurs through between impedance of two quantum states. I went all the way down this path and concluded: "The constants of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of 1.094 megahertz-meters." The quantum jump as an impedance match. _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) Frank Znidarsic -------------------------------1164296875 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"If the transmission line is coaxial in construction, the characteristi= c=20
Impedance follows a different equation:"
Frederick Sparber writes.
 
 
"In both equations, identical units of measurement must be used in both= =20 terms
of the fraction. If the insulating material is other than air (or=20= a=20 vacuum),
both the characteristic impedance and the propagation velocity=20= will=20 be
effected. The ratio of a transmission line's true propagation velocit= y=20 and the
Speed of light in a vacuum is called the velocity factor that=20 line."
"Velocity factor is purely a factor of the insulating material's=20 relative
permittivity (otherwise known as its dielectric constant), defi= ned=20 as the ratio
of a material's electric field permittivity to that of a pu= re=20 vacuum. The
velocity factor of any cable type -- coaxial or otherwise --= may=20 be calculated
quite simply by the following formula: "
Velocity Facto= r =3D=20 v/c =3D 1/(k)^1/2
 
...............................
 
Frederick,  if you understand coax cables then you understand the=20 process of energy flow. d You also understand how mechanical waves propagate= =20 through a medium.  I short you understand how all energy flows.  Y= ou=20 have not, however, asked the right question
 
Where you have not connected the dots is that energy flows through a se= ries=20 of quantum transitions.  This flow or energy down a coax is similar to=20= the=20 flow of energy during a quantum jump. The same physical laws apply. The ener= gy=20 stuck in matter is similar to a standing wave in a coax cable.  Th= e=20 phasing of that energy results in the effect of special relativity.  re= f=20 The General Journal of Physics.
 
http://www.wbabin.net/s= cience/znidarsic.pdf
 
The force produced by the stuck energy produces the gravitational field= of=20 matter. ref my home page.
 
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html
 
Real progress can be made if you take the leap and understand that a=20 quantum jump occurs through between impedance of two quantum states.
 
I went all the way down this path and  concluded:  "The const= ants=20 of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is=20 stimulated at a dimensional frequency of 1.094 megahertz-meters."
 
The quantum jump as an impedance match.
 
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html
 
Frank  Znidarsic
 -------------------------------1164296875-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 08:39:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANGcoqP025527; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:38:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANGcm2g025493; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:38:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:38:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:38:41 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164299921" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5032 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Frederick Sparber on charged spheres Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164299921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frederick Sparber writes Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly: Plate #1 had an area five times that of plate "2 and seventeen times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage applied it was pulled downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the upward force on single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-) polarity it had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2 Nt). snip............................... Frederick you understand capacitors. You understand about the isotropic capacitance of a sphere. You have, however, asked the wrong questions about capacitor anomalies. A better question would be, what it the isotropic capacitance of a point? Does the isotropic capacitance of a sphere break down when the sphere approaches the dimensions of the electron? I have asked this question and have found the isotropic capacitance of a point to be. Cq = 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads ref _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html) Is this important? I believe it is. This valve of capacitance effects the quantum transition. It produces a transitional velocity of 1.092 million meters /second. Frederich you are working with the correct equations, however, you need to ask more fundamental questions. Frank Znidarsic -------------------------------1164299921 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frederick Sparber writes
 
Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly:

Plate #1 had an area five times=20= that=20 of plate "2 and seventeen
times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage= =20 applied it was pulled
downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the= =20 upward force on
single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-)=20 polarity it
had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2= =20 Nt).
snip...............................
 
Frederick you understand capacitors.  You understand about the=20 isotropic capacitance of a sphere.  You have, however, asked the wrong=20 questions about capacitor anomalies.    A better question would=20 be,  what it the isotropic capacitance of a point?   Does  th= e=20 isotropic capacitance of a sphere break down when the sphere approaches the=20 dimensions of the electron?  I have asked this question and have found=20= the=20 isotropic capacitance of a point to be.
 
Cq =3D 1.568 x 10 -25=20 Farads
 
 
ref
 
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html
 
Is this important?  I believe it is.  This valve of capacitan= ce=20 effects the quantum transition.  It produces a transitional=20 velocity of 1.092 million meters /second.
 
 
Frederich you are working with the correct equations, however, you need= to=20 ask more fundamental questions.
 
Frank Znidarsic
 -------------------------------1164299921-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 11:25:26 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANJP87Y029116; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:25:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANJP7uh029100; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:25:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:25:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <8uLUcC.A.hGH.SWfZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: weight and charge Status: O X-Status: If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when moving in a horizontal plane. Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the less you weigh. Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 11:30:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kANJU6wm032563; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:30:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kANJKKSt022416; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:20:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:20:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Frederick Sparber on charged spheres Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:34:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank + Fred, I usually use the formula for the capacity of a sphere in free space and the Compton radius, as so. C=4*pi*epsilon0*r with r=2.8179*10^-15 M and epsilon0 = 8.854*10^-12 F/M C = 3.135*10^-25 F and we seem to differ by a factor of two. BTW, this is pretty well known, are you claiming the idea??? I've not got a reference at hand, but I'm sure a little searching would turn up something... K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:39 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Frederick Sparber on charged spheres Frederick Sparber writes Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly: Plate #1 had an area five times that of plate "2 and seventeen times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage applied it was pulled downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the upward force on single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-) polarity it had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2 Nt). snip............................... Frederick you understand capacitors. You understand about the isotropic capacitance of a sphere. You have, however, asked the wrong questions about capacitor anomalies. A better question would be, what it the isotropic capacitance of a point? Does the isotropic capacitance of a sphere break down when the sphere approaches the dimensions of the electron? I have asked this question and have found the isotropic capacitance of a point to be. Cq = 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads ref http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html Is this important? I believe it is. This valve of capacitance effects the quantum transition. It produces a transitional velocity of 1.092 million meters /second. Frederich you are working with the correct equations, however, you need to ask more fundamental questions. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 18:14:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO2EMct014519; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:14:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO2EI4W014481; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:14:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:14:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:14:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAO2E4tt014345 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > > >If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when >moving in a horizontal plane. > >Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the less >you weigh. >Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. >Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. > >Harry Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of them. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 19:01:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO31VOU000510; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:01:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO31Pc5000424; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:01:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:01:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 04:55:42 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: TEEN GOES NUCLEAR He creates fusion in his Oakland Township home In-reply-to: <000901c70e3d$c2d0b480$8c8f603f u5x1p2> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611240455.42473.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <000901c70e3d$c2d0b480$8c8f603f u5x1p2> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <3kY2GD.A.bG.ECmZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 22 November 2006 08:54, lgarrett wrote: >dont clik on http : / v/www.fr eep.com/ap ps/pbcs.dll/ar ticle?AI D=/20 061 119/NEW S03/6 11190 639 Article does not exist, but some hostile app to windows computers ....might. Notice the presence of a '.dll' file referred to in the URL. I think websites can function just like a program in many ways using the software tools available to site crafters. Shpammmers may be at it again. Checked the art out on the freep.com, which is the website for the Detroit Free Press here in Michigan in the United States. The Detroit Free Press is a major paper and a good one generally. I do not think that they would be part of a scam. The author of the above post appears in my posting history of over twenty thousand posts just one other time, in May of this year. Then he replied to one of Mr Spandonk's posts with a basically uncommented list of URL's to 'visit'. He said then that those URL's would be 'interesting'. Just thought fellow Vortexians would like to know. By the way, my mailbox has suddenly started to recieve posts from punters for shady trades, which I promply file under crooks after checkin the whole document for content to see if it could be determined where it was from. It was the usual drivel, gibberish message covering a hidden HTML payload leading windows users to some dark alley of the 'net to be mugged. It started right after I replied to a fellow lister. Some of you might want to run bot checkin software on your boxes to see if some scum has recruited your machine without your knowledge or consent. Standing Bear And yes, the probability of a suburban Detroit garage noooke created by a kid is probably quite a bit less than of a north Korean wahr headd smuggled there by one of the more than fifty thousand Iraqis that 'immigrated' there in the last few years. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 19:56:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO3uUAR003835; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:56:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO3uTgW003819; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:56:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:56:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 5gR5RuYVM1kjKEQmGKAIv5zeceh5uENmhy89F1yCPhAhCmLZBQbFOKX3QaNWOWDhQJ9vRIiDnTtNpGSfttgOKLs2bdRIuG97D64Mh20o7.m54w20FL_8vQ-- Message-ID: <45666D69.6010104 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:56:25 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goggle going nuclear! References: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <009601c70dc7$636365e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <009601c70dc7$636365e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > >> Could you briefly explain what's different or provide another citation. > > Well, it is remarkable that here is a guy seeking $200 million for R&D > who can't put up a website to provide detailed textual backup, > experimental results and real numbers. This could mean that he does not > want the details known, for several possible reasons, including they do > not support his overly-optimistic conclusions. > > It is boron "fission" technically as the boron is split by the impact of > a proton. OK I'm resurfacing after an absence to ask a dumb (and naive) question. Since boron is way lighter than iron (the "man in the middle" at the bottom of the energy trough), why isn't splitting boron an energy-negative reaction? Apologies in advance in that I haven't even tried to listen to the presentation; I'm just reacting to your post. > > The rap on this kind of Fusor has always been extreme losses from > Bremsstrahlung, which he claims is solved. Others say the problem is not > solvable and Bussard is dreaming. However, there could be a narrow > resonance level which others have missed and which employs the > "Coulomb-well slingshot effect". > > Personally, I will be convinced when IEC experts like George Miley buy > into it, which it seems has not happened yet. But if ITER or any Tokomak > is worth investing 10 billion, then this is worth investing 100 billion, > which is not at all a compliment, as it only says something about ITER > being a gigantic waste of resources. > > Google can afford to burn up some of their extra capital on this kind of > venture. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 20:20:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO4JsVY000403; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:20:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO4Jlgf032726; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:19:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:19:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: nNV47b0VM1kZbYWdwgis8mbJYMrnNzM1f9wPO9ayqj6L7cV8kVdMvECkVPbUrTZtkAeZQktRXn3Om0DcRs.kni27oU2k7wZbTZRn3ZMrdlJUYpfP_LnMyw-- Message-ID: <456672D8.9090406 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:19:36 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Interesting News About Steorn References: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > Has anyone seen the article below, from > www.energynews.com? Hadn't seen it, and energynews.com appears to be off the air just now. Wiki has a fascinating page on Steorn (please don't hate me for this, Jed): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn Quote: > According to information available from the Irish Companies > Registration Office, Steorn has not filed accounts since October 28, > 2004. Steorn's Annual Return Date is September 30. Irish Companies > Registration Office regulations state that "Where accounts are > required to be attached to the return, the filing deadline is either > the companys ARD plus 28 days or the company's financial year-end > plus nine months and 28 days, wherever is the earlier." [9] Missed > filing deadlines carry numerous penalties under Irish law > [10]. Under current Companies Registration Office practice[11] > strike-off procedures could begin against Steorn by the end of > October 2006. A strike-off would have serious consequences, such as > the loss of Steorn's limited liability status. Furthermore, any > assets of the company, including any patents or other intellectual > property, would become the property of the Irish State. [11] On > August 24, 2006, in a live chat event Steorn responded that they are > ready to file the 2004 returns within a week.[12] This hasn't > happened, and their 2005 accounts are now also overdue. Steorn's > irregular filing history is remarkable for a company that provides > expert witness testimony in fraud trials. I looked over the Steorn website, and they appear to be explicitly claiming perpetual motion of the first kind -- but they haven't closed the loop! If it actually works, why not close the loop? Big "if". Their _specific_ claim is that they have a process which has a COP greater than 100% and they don't know why. I won't hold my breath waiting for these people to save the world with their technology. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 21:32:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO5Vobb012000; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:31:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO5Vmdj011975; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:31:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:31:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=2i1EuaKxwzB/uAL4tenSWXTb7SaVj1qe/OiQZ7g9GqSke84wJouje6b3gSq0Sp97jPeyssrGXTqLL1RlDDfzDOqo4T7nzB2uVM8PY5jPua+m5UG6C29cHTD5xOdpn4XpoDbMhPq3jca8vXqYME/BiiIGzc74Pqnmq36UTzf2fl8= ; X-YMail-OSG: _OcmlmEVM1k_jWo0IIocNd4Sv3j9hbHXT4_1lBmSrxsPVottGN3j1BjQkCKAZgOaPrgL4M2f9UotsvIMG3WnJHvxcIrchPZa5q6CoS2QvkJfVWZkJ7jhww-- Message-ID: <003001c70f89$d484aef0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000f01c70d84$2debc9e0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <009601c70dc7$636365e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> <45666D69.6010104@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Goggle going nuclear! Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:31:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > Since boron is way lighter than iron (the "man in the middle" at > the bottom of the energy trough), why isn't splitting boron an > energy-negative reaction? The short answer which is easiest to understand is: because an alpha particle, 4He is an unusually stable nucleus, when a proton impacts 11B with enough energy (threshold 1.8 MeV), then three alphas are a favored result - and with the large advantage of no (very few) neutrons - it is a highly desirable reaction which gives off almost 9 MeV equally divided; which energy represents the "excess" mass-energy in the boron isotope nucleus compared to three alphas. Wiki has this on aneutronic fusion... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion BTW they did not emphasize enough that the reason that lack of neutrons is important has little to do with radioactive waste and activation of the reactor, etc. and that the paragraph on "Power Density" applies only to the Tokomak and not to an IEC device. The problem is that because it is lightweight and neutral, the n carries away so much energy (from the D+T reaction zone) i.e. out of the reactor itself - that the reaction cannot self-sustain for very long after ignition. 11B + p could self-sustain indefinitely in the proper reactor. Consequently - although it takes a lot more input energy to ignite boron than T+D, from there on, following ignition, it takes less energy to sustain and operate the reactor over time, and direct conversion to electricity is possible - while the T+D has to be continually pumped and direct conversion is not possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 23:43:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO7hWX6028822; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:43:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO7hUob028798; Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:43:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:43:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FVsVBheEO3PZO3YqTzDVlZ6qABUeghlzAFfFju08yPHSB3q+HUT8CxJ/qfAlLA4a7mB9F3eFk5dFi7JGdKzsi+UVCS5a43tpTufnETK8UyexPLZSuHT64a85QU/1blVr9GB6zhILOKMoChNBL/VrICa8nDSXJl1a8gh+D2o2vP0= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611232343r4d3d37e9o10f29c20eb10323b mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:43:28 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <456672D8.9090406 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20097_12166858.1164354208205" References: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <456672D8.9090406 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_20097_12166858.1164354208205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline they can't say why its overunity - who would believe them?, thats why they went public and are picking out a row of skeptical scientists to prove once and for all if its overunity or not. besides, you'd do so much better to just consult http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Steorn_Free_Energy for this kind of stuff. i mean, honestly. wikipedia. WIKIPEDIA and science-challenging new information that is bound to generate hot debate? are you serious? On 11/24/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Wiki has a fascinating page on Steorn (please don't hate me for this, > Jed): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn > Their _specific_ claim is that they have a process which has a COP > greater than 100% and they don't know why. > I won't hold my breath waiting for these people to save the world with > their technology. > -- ++++ http://www.lackluster.org/ http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_20097_12166858.1164354208205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline they can't say why  its  overunity - who would believe them?, thats why they went public  and  are picking out a row of skeptical scientists to prove once and for all if its overunity or not.
besides, you'd do so much better to just consult  http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Steorn_Free_Energy   for this kind of stuff.

i mean, honestly. wikipedia. WIKIPEDIA   and science-challenging new information that is  bound to generate hot debate? are you serious?

On 11/24/06, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
Wiki has a fascinating page on Steorn (please don't hate me for this, Jed):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn
Their _specific_ claim is that they have a process which has a COP
greater than 100% and they don't know why.
I won't hold my breath waiting for these people to save the world with
their technology.



--
++++
http://www.lackluster.org/
http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_20097_12166858.1164354208205-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 00:59:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO8xTtL012213; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:59:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO8xRHN012203; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:59:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018f01c70fa6$d8dbcde0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:59:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAO8xPWH012163 Resent-Message-ID: <9NY8yC.A.i-C.vRrZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 > -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> >> >>If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when >>moving in a horizontal plane. >> >>Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the less >>you weigh. >>Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. >>Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. >> >>Harry > > Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of > them. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 01:09:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO99HUU022404; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:09:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO99Ggs022370; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:09:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:09:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=B7ros/iDWSgIc/VKMYe3M9rhq9zASJBrvOYdDTMJqzykexlxc5QBOKqiyF/Q82jX; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611524991144 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:09:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407e5356c6bd4ea2d59d5e20c703b264d7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.95 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarizized Vacuum Between Concentric Spheres-Cylinders Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Without trying to rewrite accepted physics, what I see from Doyle Buehler's charged capacitor weight change phenomena-experiments is that the electric field is changing (increasing/decreasing?) the vacuum/air dielectric constant between/near the plates,thus storing more/less energy, causing the repelling of gravity. Buehler assumed the stored energy based on Epsilon Naught (eo). Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Without trying to rewrite accepted physics, what I see
from Doyle Buehler's charged capacitor weight change
phenomena-experiments is that the electric field is changing
(increasing/decreasing?) the vacuum/air dielectric constant
between/near the plates,thus storing more/less energy,
causing the repelling of gravity.
 
Buehler assumed the stored energy based on Epsilon Naught (eo).
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 01:20:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO9KUVR030132; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:20:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO9KQT7030103; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:20:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:20:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jpEGAKR0luluHhB+zFSFU1ilyVoVH22KCAtSkY+T1JqTJjARY6tBc7gmjJYkCuwn; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006115249209425 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:20:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409201b90a8a2fcc1b6bcada141f0f19e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.95 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry wasn't kidding Michel. He knows this from his experience moonlighting as a speed-bump at WalMart. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 11/24/2006 2:00:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > > > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 > > -0500: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >> > >> > >> > >>If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when > >>moving in a horizontal plane. > >> > >>Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the less > >>you weigh. > >>Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. > >>Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. > >> > >>Harry > > > > Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of > > them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > Competition provides the motivation, > > Cooperation provides the means. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 01:54:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAO9rv2s018211; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:53:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAO9rtOL018188; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:53:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 01:53:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019e01c70fae$72217570$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22006115249209425 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:53:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAO9rnKi018125 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LOL BTW my posts to Vortex are getting through again since I swapped ISP's, I am quite glad. Maybe the list server is equipped with some whimsical antispam software blocking all posts from my previous ISP's smtp server? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > Harry wasn't kidding Michel. He knows this from his experience > moonlighting as a speed-bump at WalMart. > > Fred > >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 11/24/2006 2:00:09 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >> >> I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight > minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the > right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in > orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they > obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >> >> >> > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 >> > -0500: >> > Hi, >> > [snip] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when >> >>moving in a horizontal plane. >> >> >> >>Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the > less >> >>you weigh. >> >>Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. >> >>Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. >> >> >> >>Harry >> > >> > Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of >> > them. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Robin van Spaandonk >> > >> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> > >> > Competition provides the motivation, >> > Cooperation provides the means. >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 02:17:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOAHJLm010940; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:17:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOAHHtv010921; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:17:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 02:17:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A26J5TzrgqR6PBfKkJS4v9Ms+i45BITVmgajzIz3p+j6cNL5+XyMXSG7Xc308Xkk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061152410171853 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 03:17:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940702ed76589080c3c1f0085746a1820d0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Glad you're finally getting through, Michel. BTW. Harry tends to lay down on the job so to speak, hence assumes what WalMart calls their "entry level" position. OTOH, I hear that missionary positions abound in Amsterdam if you tend to have a religious bent. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 11/24/2006 2:54:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > LOL > > BTW my posts to Vortex are getting through again since I swapped ISP's, I am quite glad. Maybe the list server is equipped with some whimsical antispam software blocking all posts from my previous ISP's smtp server? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > > > Harry wasn't kidding Michel. He knows this from his experience > > moonlighting as a speed-bump at WalMart. > > > > Fred > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 11/24/2006 2:00:09 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >> > >> I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight > > minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the > > right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in > > orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they > > obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >> To: > >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >> > >> > >> > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 > >> > -0500: > >> > Hi, > >> > [snip] > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when > >> >>moving in a horizontal plane. > >> >> > >> >>Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the > > less > >> >>you weigh. > >> >>Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. > >> >>Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. > >> >> > >> >>Harry > >> > > >> > Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of > >> > them. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Robin van Spaandonk > >> > > >> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >> > > >> > Competition provides the motivation, > >> > Cooperation provides the means. > >> > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 06:28:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOERq59004375; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 06:27:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOERkSQ004295; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 06:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 06:27:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GgEJYc3svn4TlRYexWYkSpdvcS8HejBhIym9Dx5ldWdezlcu/dFd7iRA/xBPD3Oy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061152414146789 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 07:14:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dcfb5795a24b3760838ab96ef829405a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.123 Resent-Message-ID: <5du-XC.A.kCB.fFwZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Frederick Sparber on charged spheres Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Keith, you wrote: > > C=4*pi*epsilon0*r > > with r=2.8179*10^-15 M > and epsilon0 = 8.854*10^-12 F/M > > C = 3.135*10^-25 F > Yes. r = q^2/[4(pi)eo* mc^2] = 2.8179 M Also since Zo = (L/C)^1/2 = 377 ohms L = 377^2* 3.135*10^-25 = 4.455*10^-20 Henry And since capacitive E = 0.5*C*V^2 and inductive E = 0.5* L* I^2 IF the energy in the Capacitance And Inductance of The Electron's Vacuum/Ether are in Phase: V = [mc^2/(*3.135*10^-25)]^1/2 = 511* 10^5 volts I = [mc^2/(4.455*10^-20)]^1/2 = 1.355*10^3 amperes OTOH 2(pi)r * uo = 2.219*10^-20 Henry, making I = 1.92*10^3 amperes and 2(pi)r * eo = 1.56*10^-25 Farad making V = 7.245*10^5 volts. If the electron "energy wave" is circling at speed of light c: Time, t = 2(pi)r/c = 2.81*10^-15/3*10^8 = 9.36810^-24 seconds Frequency = 1/t = 1.06*10^23 Hz. OTOH, The Compton Wavelength (h/mc) = 2.427*10^-12 M puts r at 3.86*10^-13 M Your choice? :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Keith, you wrote:
 
>
> C=4*pi*epsilon0*r
>
> with r=2.8179*10^-15 M
> and epsilon0 = 8.854*10^-12 F/M
>
> C = 3.135*10^-25 F
>
Yes.  r = q^2/[4(pi)eo* mc^2] = 2.8179 M
 
Also since Zo = (L/C)^1/2 = 377 ohms 
 
L = 377^2* 3.135*10^-25 = 4.455*10^-20 Henry
 
And since capacitive E = 0.5*C*V^2  and  inductive E = 0.5* L* I^2
 
IF the energy in the Capacitance And Inductance of
The Electron's Vacuum/Ether are in Phase:
 
V = [mc^2/(*3.135*10^-25)]^1/2 = 511* 10^5 volts
 
I = [mc^2/(4.455*10^-20)]^1/2 = 1.355*10^3 amperes
 
OTOH 2(pi)r * uo = 2.219*10^-20 Henry, making I = 1.92*10^3 amperes
 
and 2(pi)r * eo = 1.56*10^-25 Farad making V = 7.245*10^5 volts.
 
If the electron "energy wave" is circling at speed of light c:
 
Time,  t = 2(pi)r/c = 2.81*10^-15/3*10^8 = 9.36810^-24 seconds
 
Frequency = 1/t = 1.06*10^23 Hz.
 
OTOH, The Compton Wavelength (h/mc) = 2.427*10^-12 M
puts r at 3.86*10^-13 M
 
Your choice?  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 08:22:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOGMRKG000421; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:22:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOGMPbd000390; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:22:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=h/sVAXxlp0Wl3mWJ73IwuPt/JLsd9MV41G0+jj6Yxw1kNFTFPRIzv948+JjjA+jM5rSjAIBBMLcDCyn3WRAiS9QR9Ukld1GoppbyP9n3FKpstLp/+XWI4nLMdBuzCzi/HgDefHnptPVsa9Ccp1IhqGj4TWi0RZB2O6pItlNecZQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: 2HQunj0VM1lnlh4gkyOoFRL.uk4JKJQE7qzjGALLUBv1r96kDp8TQ2DUj8m5OUiWEJgWroiE2DrGYozoaLVijDo3wiWuaLkWFDAQuQxc6RUkoNHevnzlcw-- Message-ID: <002a01c70fe4$b97dd4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <456672D8.9090406@pobox.com> <538fa8f10611232343r4d3d37e9o10f29c20eb10323b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:22:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Esa Ruoho > they can't say why its overunity - who would believe them? > that's why they went public and are picking out a row of > skeptical scientists to prove once and for all if its overunity > or not. Forget all that. Can you answer the single critical issue of self-power (or lack thereof) ? If a self-powered unit exists now - where is it? - regardless of any explanations/ skepticism - a self-powered unit is all the evidence which in needed by anyone, skeptic or not. Why not just call the BBC in to film it running under self-power, while those supposedly skeptical scientists are debating the underlying modality, which is probably related to ZPE/Casimir in some fashion? Is that too much to ask from a company which is seemingly struggling and dying for public recognition - and paying dearly for much of it instead of putting those resources into development ? Let me say at the outset - that magnetic overunity [or magnets with coils, pendulums, or some combination of mechanical recycling of torque with a magnetic boost] will probably be demonstrated by someone next year - 2007 ! as there are many groups who are on the verge now. MPI would be expected to have something next year and/or Sprain in Atlanta, and five or six lesser and "fringier" efforts which include Perendev, Minato, Torbay and Steorn etc. I would put Steorn firmly at the tail end of this list, due solely to the way they have handled the announcement - but a single self-running demo will immediately change that. Not that it matters. Proof - not PR - is all that matters. Self-running = Proof. If Steorn were not so PR-oriented - and highly desirous of every kind-word of public recognition - why else did they announce this in such an expensive way, characteristic of a PR blitz (or the "Czech Dream") ? shouldn't a company which apparently has not paid their corporate licensing fees have saved the 100,000 pounds for the expensive advertising and just called up Oxford/Cambridge for a private showing? It just does not make sense - the way they have handled it, unless they have been hired to do it as a stunt of some kind. Maybe Branson or some other drama-queen is hiding in there somewhere. Apparently (or if) it is not a self-runner, then that narrows the issue considerably, as **measurement error** is very common in this type of device. Almost anyone here, especially the "consultants" - if that was said in a derogatory fashion - could have explained this issue of likely measurement-error to Steorn - and in great detail. That is, had Steorn not "come out of nowhere" --- which is yet another problem for their credulity. There is a community of creative but careful scientific people involved heavily in this field, and no one at Steorn was not part of it - prior to recently. And look at the wasted time. Steorn has wasted infinitely more precious time with mundane PR details, endless press questioning and facility tours, etc then a single BBC filming would have accomplished on day-one ---IF--- Steorn has a device which will self-run. If not - the most of us will agree that it is likely measurement error. Skeptics who want to go on record with the "told you so" thing should be focusing solely on that issue: is it self-running or not. If it is not, then Steorn has a monstrous problem on their hands and will probably look like fools in the end. Plus - did not someone at Steorn actually claim that they had a device self-running for an extended period, but that they could not show it for some strange reason --- like it had been disassembled to make an even better model ! Ha! Sounds very much like the English crank scientist who claimed to have invented an anti-gravity device but he cold not show it to the skeptics because his wife had inadvertently turned it on - and it blasted through the roof of his home and escaped into space ! He could show the hole, however. Suspension of disbelief has its limits. Jones (not a Steorn skeptic yet -- just stating the obvious inconsistencies with their story, and the sad way in which they have handled what could be a monumental discovery, if it could be believed) Let me repeat - This is NOT the way science - even fringe-science is handled, and that is why all the suspicion is warranted - even though Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" stretched out -- as the less-sophisticated scammers like to do early-on. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 08:50:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOGo2vM026713; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:50:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOGjMrq020087; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:45:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:45:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hq0cVAL4xLWj1vdxNaqnl47seH5zWQJX3XD/DYy1b8GG/EUhnCXQXh0vsmdxaPkrFeSbh1wMhHp5qQd0587/leII861EwDassQSxRTbnDsmbbwN0+OVojAjpj54EIl8UHP/XHIxAO4KIjmxqy9K4JT5ihx4THpF2RjCqzehC9Q4= ; Message-ID: <20061124164508.96254.qmail web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:45:08 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002a01c70fe4$b97dd4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Esa Ruoho > > > they can't say why its overunity - who would > believe them? > > that's why they went public and are picking out a > row of > > skeptical scientists to prove once and for all if > its overunity > > or not. > > Forget all that. Can you answer the single critical > issue of > self-power (or lack thereof) ? > > If a self-powered unit exists now - where is it? - > regardless of > any explanations/ skepticism - a self-powered unit > is all the > evidence which in needed by anyone, skeptic or not. > > Why not just call the BBC in to film it running > under self-power, > while those supposedly skeptical scientists are > debating the > underlying modality, which is probably related to > ZPE/Casimir in > some fashion? Is that too much to ask from a company > which is > seemingly struggling and dying for public > recognition - and paying > dearly for much of it instead of putting those > resources into > development ? > > Let me say at the outset - that magnetic overunity > [or magnets > with coils, pendulums, or some combination of > mechanical recycling > of torque with a magnetic boost] will probably be > demonstrated by > someone next year - 2007 ! as there are many groups > who are on the > verge now. MPI would be expected to have something > next year > and/or Sprain in Atlanta, and five or six lesser and > "fringier" > efforts which include Perendev, Minato, Torbay and > Steorn etc. I > would put Steorn firmly at the tail end of this > list, due solely > to the way they have handled the announcement - but > a single > self-running demo will immediately change that. Not > that it > matters. Proof - not PR - is all that matters. > Self-running = > Proof. > > If Steorn were not so PR-oriented - and highly > desirous of every > kind-word of public recognition - why else did they > announce this > in such an expensive way, characteristic of a PR > blitz (or the > "Czech Dream") ? shouldn't a company which > apparently has not paid > their corporate licensing fees have saved the > 100,000 pounds for > the expensive advertising and just called up > Oxford/Cambridge for > a private showing? It just does not make sense - the > way they have > handled it, unless they have been hired to do it as > a stunt of > some kind. Maybe Branson or some other drama-queen > is hiding in > there somewhere. > > Apparently (or if) it is not a self-runner, then > that narrows the > issue considerably, as **measurement error** is very > common in > this type of device. Almost anyone here, especially > the > "consultants" - if that was said in a derogatory > fashion - could > have explained this issue of likely > measurement-error to Steorn - > and in great detail. That is, had Steorn not "come > out of > nowhere" --- which is yet another problem for their > credulity. > There is a community of creative but careful > scientific people > involved heavily in this field, and no one at Steorn > was not part > of it - prior to recently. > > And look at the wasted time. Steorn has wasted > infinitely more > precious time with mundane PR details, endless press > questioning > and facility tours, etc then a single BBC filming > would have > accomplished on day-one ---IF--- Steorn has a > device which will > self-run. If not - the most of us will agree that it > is likely > measurement error. > > Skeptics who want to go on record with the "told you > so" thing > should be focusing solely on that issue: is it > self-running or > not. If it is not, then Steorn has a monstrous > problem on their > hands and will probably look like fools in the end. > > Plus - did not someone at Steorn actually claim that > they had a > device self-running for an extended period, but that > they could > not show it for some strange reason --- like it had > been > disassembled to make an even better model ! > > Ha! Sounds very much like the English crank > scientist who claimed > to have invented an anti-gravity device but he cold > not show it to > the skeptics because his wife had inadvertently > turned it on - and > it blasted through the roof of his home and escaped > into space ! > He could show the hole, however. > > Suspension of disbelief has its limits. > > Jones > > (not a Steorn skeptic yet -- just stating the > obvious > inconsistencies with their story, and the sad way in > which they > have handled what could be a monumental discovery, > if it could be > believed) > > Let me repeat - This is NOT the way science - even > fringe-science > is handled, and that is why all the suspicion is > warranted - even > though Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" > stretched out -- as > the less-sophisticated scammers like to do early-on. I have something to add. I have no idea if Steorn is legit, but personally I have seen far too many claims. We all know what has happened. Such a group claims to have completed a "free energy" device, and the group fades over time. Time will tell, but I have a hunch Steorn's purpose is to inflict damage on the "free energy" community. Scientists need to ignore any attempts of doing damage or disinformation. Lets all just please continue on the good work of researching "free energy." Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 09:41:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOHeaAl003469; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:40:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOHeYIw003432; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:40:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:40:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=TunW5C2fP5a16mjsCluNUE8fxSwwTz2lsuZushHjIjoeIMf0S8yMb1Go57oTDNtyJunGg3eX1kOIeTnZPOyBYeofXg4VCTkZUfp6oDVFlsP5u/R6gDr5/CqEKXniSMztH/iBHOu4m8EG6te9yl2BZs/nOrEaOy3dWn8vhrXGmpI=; X-YMail-OSG: mtwukt4VM1mFuvaNQz47ZFx.fIMkLYwLVVaT0ateYO8ggekEBk3Q6UbY.7y836QWng-- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:40:33 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002a01c70fe4$b97dd4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's what I've been able to glean from their site. It is self-powered. There is no input. They won't do demos because, they say, they'll be put down as conmen unless a jury of reputable scientists confirms the OU. They'll announce their first products the day the jury announces its verdict. They have said they continue to file applications for patents on different implementations of the basic configuration. The basic configuration is simple. My guess is that if somebody versed in the art were to have even a cursory look at the device, he could go home and build his own. That's just a guess, but it would explain their reluctance to demo it. To put it another way, whatever good their demo did for them would be outweighed by everybody and his brother copying the device and beating them to the market. They're not struggling or dying for public recognition. The CEO says they used the economist ad and the early interviews to get scientists to take up their challenge. Now that that has been accomplished, they don't need publicity. >From what I can see, they are doing nothing to seek publicity; there is almost zero media mention of them these days. They claim to have a 550bhp motor, and have tested the effect for three years. A measurement error seems very unlikely. The CEO says no device has stopped running unless a mechanical part wore out or they shut it down. They are fully funded and do not need investors to bring the device(s) to market. The CEO has said they will not accept investment money. Steorn have not 'come out of nowhere', at least in the sense of being a bona fide company, with a track record of accomplishment. That goes, too, for the CEO, who has been an engineer since 1989. They have about 20 full-time employees and several consultants. Their engineers all have university degress, some of them advanced degrees An independent observer has visited their offices, which she describes as extensive and well-guarded, seen documentation on a couple of the jurors, and confirmed that they are reputable scientists. She has seen a video of the CEO of a European manufacturing partner of Steorn's as he assembled a test device and started it running. He said, in the video, that he left it running over a weekend and when he returned it was still running. She looked him up on the internet, and found a picture of him on his company's website. It was the same man she saw in the video. You say: [**magnetic overunity [or magnets with coils, pendulums, or some combination of mechanical recycling of torque with a magnetic boost] will probably be demonstrated by someone next year - 2007 ! as there are many groups who are on the verge now. MPI would be expected to have something next year and/or Sprain in Atlanta...**] You think MPI is 'on the verge', but they've been 'on the verge' for years, and have continually asked for more money, and have demonstrated nothing. Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but promises to do so soon. I don't see how you can speak respectfully of those outfits while deprecating Steorn's claims. You complain that Steorn has demonstrated nothing, but neither has MPI or Sprain. It's almost as if you require 10 times the proof from Steorn that you do from anyone else. You also say: [**Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" stretched out -- as the less-sophisticated scammers like to do early-on.**] It sounds like you are flat-out calling them scammers. Amazing Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: Esa Ruoho > >> they can't say why its overunity - who would believe them? that's >> why they went public and are picking out a row of skeptical scientists >> to prove once and for all if its overunity or not. > > Forget all that. Can you answer the single critical issue of self-power > (or lack thereof) ? > > If a self-powered unit exists now - where is it? - regardless of any > explanations/ skepticism - a self-powered unit is all the evidence which > in needed by anyone, skeptic or not. > > Why not just call the BBC in to film it running under self-power, while > those supposedly skeptical scientists are debating the underlying > modality, which is probably related to ZPE/Casimir in some fashion? Is > that too much to ask from a company which is seemingly struggling and > dying for public recognition - and paying dearly for much of it instead > of putting those resources into development ? > > Let me say at the outset - that magnetic overunity [or magnets with > coils, pendulums, or some combination of mechanical recycling of torque > with a magnetic boost] will probably be demonstrated by someone next > year - 2007 ! as there are many groups who are on the verge now. MPI > would be expected to have something next year and/or Sprain in Atlanta, > and five or six lesser and "fringier" efforts which include Perendev, > Minato, Torbay and Steorn etc. I would put Steorn firmly at the tail end > of this list, due solely to the way they have handled the announcement - > but a single self-running demo will immediately change that. Not that it > matters. Proof - not PR - is all that matters. Self-running = Proof. > > If Steorn were not so PR-oriented - and highly desirous of every > kind-word of public recognition - why else did they announce this in > such an expensive way, characteristic of a PR blitz (or the "Czech > Dream") ? shouldn't a company which apparently has not paid their > corporate licensing fees have saved the 100,000 pounds for the expensive > advertising and just called up Oxford/Cambridge for a private showing? > It just does not make sense - the way they have handled it, unless they > have been hired to do it as a stunt of some kind. Maybe Branson or some > other drama-queen is hiding in there somewhere. > > Apparently (or if) it is not a self-runner, then that narrows the issue > considerably, as **measurement error** is very common in this type of > device. Almost anyone here, especially the "consultants" - if that was > said in a derogatory fashion - could have explained this issue of likely > measurement-error to Steorn - and in great detail. That is, had Steorn > not "come out of nowhere" --- which is yet another problem for their > credulity. There is a community of creative but careful scientific > people involved heavily in this field, and no one at Steorn was not part > of it - prior to recently. > > And look at the wasted time. Steorn has wasted infinitely more precious > time with mundane PR details, endless press questioning and facility > tours, etc then a single BBC filming would have accomplished on day-one > ---IF--- Steorn has a device which will self-run. If not - the most of > us will agree that it is likely measurement error. > > Skeptics who want to go on record with the "told you so" thing should be > focusing solely on that issue: is it self-running or not. If it is not, > then Steorn has a monstrous problem on their hands and will probably > look like fools in the end. > > Plus - did not someone at Steorn actually claim that they had a device > self-running for an extended period, but that they could not show it for > some strange reason --- like it had been disassembled to make an even > better model ! > > Ha! Sounds very much like the English crank scientist who claimed to > have invented an anti-gravity device but he cold not show it to the > skeptics because his wife had inadvertently turned it on - and it > blasted through the roof of his home and escaped into space ! He could > show the hole, however. > > Suspension of disbelief has its limits. > > Jones > > (not a Steorn skeptic yet -- just stating the obvious inconsistencies > with their story, and the sad way in which they have handled what could > be a monumental discovery, if it could be believed) > > Let me repeat - This is NOT the way science - even fringe-science is > handled, and that is why all the suspicion is warranted - even though > Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" stretched out -- as the > less-sophisticated scammers like to do early-on. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Assoc http://yahoo.degrees.info From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 09:44:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOHi7w5006143; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:44:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOHi6pR006120; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:44:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:44:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=vnZo13XWNOXeoE58vr8i5aGhUdcNbXPdZjoSXvDNDqkhWGDvhBJ7XwWMDvMIqDAY58GaTapW2xTWq4P4d6Zcypewav1Kxw+bzeAIrgFJHYm5cleYQag9ioXW6LO/IBnK7UYxi/BDCZyCnIiU+D8jRWOdwGHqhNJt2lF69vw7nzk= ; X-YMail-OSG: GiyKnnIVM1l9Ge7NIbNt_f6z_XfJx7G4thu0br0X9PKiLzkoY6DSGjWUPoUJMKvyfvNeLs2uRyfgJI16HBuC4l5ZQDuFw6ewX_xOEGpEcJKEvHAR2_A7SQ-- Message-ID: <006901c70ff0$22c2fc00$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:44:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A New Spin on Consciousness Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" http://xxx.lanl.gov/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0208/0208068.pdf > "Spin-Mediated Consciousness Theory and Its Experimental Support > by Evidence of Biological, Chemical and Physical Non-local > Effects ABSTRACT > A novel theory of consciousness is proposed in this paper. We > postulate that consciousness is intrinsically connected to > quantum spin .... Now that is a "pregnant" thought ! ... or l'idée enceinte, as the case may be. This is a bit off-topic, but for those who like low budget cinema [esp. of the "new spin on consciousness" ilk] ... which is as off-beat, fern-filmy and weird as "quantum science" can be, let me recommend a fine effort which is out now, but will soon be little more than a troubling dream: "The Science of Sleep" (La Science des rêves) The protagonist in this film, Stéphane has a theory he calls PSR, "Parallel Synchronized Randomness," meaning that he and a corresponding "target", say the girl-next-door who is named Stéphanie of course, will share a common wavelength (meme pool), and understand one another at a higher level without having to share material space. Kinda like RV [remote viewing, which is also a recreational-vehicle, come to think of it].... In his dreams, she's perfect. In his dreams of her dreams, he's perfect. In reality, he is pathétique ... IOW his DreamWorld is a "Disasterology" waiting to happen.... What's new, Miou-Miou? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 10:46:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOIk3LG030742; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:46:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOIk0b3030678; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:46:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:46:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:40:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <018f01c70fa6$d8dbcde0$3800a8c0 zothan> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7r-DK.A.JfH.n3zZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel, This time I am being serious. If one begins with the postulate that that all weight is apparent weight then it is easier to understand how and why weight anomalies might arise. Gravity is the tendency of a body to accelerate. Weight is only a _measure_ of this tendency, and it is a relative measure at best. A true measure of gravity is 'g'. Weight is also used as a measure of inertia, so there is tendency to confuse inertia and weight. Mind you, in applied mechanics, one treats weight as if it were an inertial force. Einstein went further and turned the treatment into a principle of nature, and the theory of general relativity was born. Harry PS On a half serious note. The condition of of being over-weight is really the condition of possessing excess inertia. Michel Jullian wrote: > I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight minus > centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the right > velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in orbit or > in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they obviously still > experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). > > Michel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 11:34:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOJYCfL007393; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:34:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOJYBD4007360; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:34:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:34:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fkVXiDGR9m1EG0hFIppSDRl5cmtM5yk/awH4OAzJqs5M3xwja5hNOC30NNXuYdO0sANgwn6bncp7euoDUOSbcHUOELTETBBxaPbWd4evkMPL1i4mytaKxN/t35Et44JwWE6JqCNImMVSOGrM/XPEPkI5LcQbV6wfMeNNrxV0ZT4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:34:08 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002a01c70fe4$b97dd4a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but > promises to do so soon. I have personally measured his original device to have a COP of 2.4. A revised configuration, which I am not yet at liberty to discuss, has demonstrated a greater COP. Terry Blanton, BEE, PE From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 11:47:43 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOJlMep018656; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:47:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOJlKs7018622; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:47:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=3CpMKGRUzmvzCNpv2yNV0s3H4ehm7JsmAvX/ziVnDIEm6LiIMLxj0pZyny0IT9aPyoUHikv8swPBVdjh3p6U3VvfVJ2Ex04qDUwjgq5OSeHy7vKErBO+ZEccSz4xPl8LDEaxNyZsIaE3dzlHzBU+18T2fi2LZgCYs8mxBJbGob0=; X-YMail-OSG: 7C7s4.IVM1mjT6LL6l1AKx_lt4czZIQRgKiZvrjDKbM3gG3yvByu7AJ6mD4P7pqzW5rvHKZWlMdnpRaTMQKEKkm62x_5fnQh_hrMiT45EPxM2oTJSIZKlFswZqxPF9_a7BW1CZuSkayDxVI- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:47:15 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong > wrote: > > > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but > > promises to do so soon. > > I have personally measured his original device to > have a COP of 2.4. > A revised configuration, which I am not yet at > liberty to discuss, has > demonstrated a greater COP. > > Terry Blanton, BEE, PE > > That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a public demonstration? It looks like Steorn will be several months before they are ready to launch their device / products; if the Sprain motor can get to the public ahead of them, the investment money should be considerable. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 11:59:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOJxGAG030742; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:59:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOJxDr2030704; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:59:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:59:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nKM2Es5Q8zHwBrtLQks4VL6pboAE9F85OegmTeBfbA/MQqp1LPfGu8OlBD75WyPk0VCYr3/IBPWvLuqYKbfiApI65/4HaZikcK9Z/eGxU7NRbERIQZchV9h6ztd29XKwZxQEaoTW63Hfy2UOOMFk4WltZ4BAi/LoPISZe+vI6Aw= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611241159g1e9d6725g45c215374322bbdd mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:59:10 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30958_12729105.1164398350268" References: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30958_12729105.1164398350268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss - Steorn original intro.. 5minutes3seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News Interview 3min35sec
have fun m8s On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > > > --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > > On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong > > wrote: > > > > > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but > > > promises to do so soon. > > > > I have personally measured his original device to > > have a COP of 2.4. > > A revised configuration, which I am not yet at > > liberty to discuss, has > > demonstrated a greater COP. > > > > Terry Blanton, BEE, PE > > > > > That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a > public demonstration? It looks like Steorn will be > several months before they are ready to launch their > device / products; if the Sprain motor can get to the > public ahead of them, the investment money should be > considerable. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > > -- ++++ http://www.lackluster.org/ http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_30958_12729105.1164398350268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss  - Steorn original intro.. 5minutes3seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News Interview 3min35sec<br>

have fun m8s


On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong < rongdong99 yahoo.com> wrote:

--- Terry Blanton < hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong <rongdong99@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but
> > promises to do so soon.
>
> I have personally measured his original device to
> have a COP of 2.4.
> A revised configuration, which I am not yet at
> liberty to discuss, has
> demonstrated a greater COP.
>
> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE
>
>
That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a
public demonstration? It looks like Steorn will be
several months before they are ready to launch their
device / products; if the Sprain motor can get to the
public ahead of them, the investment money should be
considerable.




____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com




--
++++
http://www.lackluster.org/
http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_30958_12729105.1164398350268-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 12:20:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOKK4Br013216; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:20:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOKFxgY010413; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:15:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:15:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:16:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <410-220061152410171853 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating electricity. http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: > Glad you're finally getting through, Michel. > > BTW. Harry tends to lay down on the job so to speak, hence > assumes what WalMart calls their "entry level" position. > > OTOH, I hear that missionary positions abound in Amsterdam > if you tend to have a religious bent. > > Fred > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 11/24/2006 2:54:25 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >> >> LOL >> >> BTW my posts to Vortex are getting through again since I swapped ISP's, I > am quite glad. Maybe the list server is equipped with some whimsical > antispam software blocking all posts from my previous ISP's smtp server? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:20 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >> >> >>> Harry wasn't kidding Michel. He knows this from his experience >>> moonlighting as a speed-bump at WalMart. >>> >>> Fred >>> >>>> [Original Message] >>>> From: Michel Jullian >>>> To: >>>> Date: 11/24/2006 2:00:09 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >>>> >>>> I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight >>> minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at > the >>> right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people > in >>> orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they >>> obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction > (weight). >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge >>>> >>>> >>>>> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 >>>>> -0500: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> [snip] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when >>>>>> moving in a horizontal plane. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the >>> less >>>>>> you weigh. >>>>>> Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. >>>>>> Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. >>>>>> >>>>>> Harry >>>>> >>>>> Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Robin van Spaandonk >>>>> >>>>> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >>>>> >>>>> Competition provides the motivation, >>>>> Cooperation provides the means. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 12:22:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOKLq2j015303; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:21:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOKLnHH015250; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:21:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:21:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NSqkRKIG/RDZFb5sTHqo8ynRyiL+kDJikOGbr+QG8mtKAsVwvbQ3fi7CNLccu2AQW2dAXjTHvifzDY13oqYkAagGd+943iTIKsmv5tlkfxZ9ANN2wnjv7OnQSG6PbVkk96Y+XoO/SFOOr8KmkMi5aQkLYcrvGmImWWNRCtEm0lk= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611241221o5a36df3doc0323987085807ed mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:21:45 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10611241159g1e9d6725g45c215374322bbdd mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31250_1227687.1164399705280" References: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <538fa8f10611241159g1e9d6725g45c215374322bbdd mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31250_1227687.1164399705280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline apologies, later found quite a few more. i think this is all. == Steorn == http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss Steorn develops free energy technology?] 5minutes3seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News Interview] 3min35sec Steorn will launch a revolutionary free, clean, energy technology. Fox News interview, August 28, 2006. see www.steornpower.com for more up2date news http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNDIWY19gqA Steorn: Sky News: Race On To Prove Free Energy Irish engineers say they have built a device that creates free and clean energy. Until now most scientists have dismissed their claims, saying that they break the most basic laws of physics. So the inventors have come up with a unique challenge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDA0oyAtNBA Steorn: Sean MacCarthy with SkyNews] This is a longer interview video of the first SkyNews clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYRuYn__Ro AP: Steorn: Engineers Claim Machine Makes Free Energy] An Irish company is raising eyebrows with its claim that it has developed a machine that can create free and totally clean energy. (Sept. 12) On 11/24/06, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss - Steorn original intro.. > 5minutes3seconds > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News > Interview 3min35sec
> > have fun m8s > > > On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong < rongdong99 yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > --- Terry Blanton < hohlraum gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but > > > > promises to do so soon. > > > > > > I have personally measured his original device to > > > have a COP of 2.4. > > > A revised configuration, which I am not yet at > > > liberty to discuss, has > > > demonstrated a greater COP. > > > > > > Terry Blanton, BEE, PE > > > > > > > > That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a > > public demonstration? It looks like Steorn will be > > several months before they are ready to launch their > > device / products; if the Sprain motor can get to the > > public ahead of them, the investment money should be > > considerable. > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Cheap talk? > > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > http://voice.yahoo.com > > > > > > > -- > ++++ > http://www.lackluster.org/ > http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ -- ++++ http://www.lackluster.org/ http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_31250_1227687.1164399705280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline apologies, later found quite a few more. i think this is all.

== Steorn ==
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss  Steorn develops free energy technology?] 5minutes3seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News Interview] 3min35sec
Steorn will launch a revolutionary free, clean, energy technology. Fox News interview, August 28, 2006. see www.steornpower.com for more up2date news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNDIWY19gqA Steorn: Sky News: Race On To Prove Free Energy
Irish engineers say they have built a device that creates free and clean energy. Until now most scientists have dismissed their claims, saying that they break the most basic laws of physics. So the inventors have come up with a unique challenge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDA0oyAtNBA Steorn: Sean MacCarthy with SkyNews]
This is a longer interview video of the first SkyNews clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYRuYn__Ro AP: Steorn: Engineers Claim Machine Makes Free Energy]
An Irish company is raising eyebrows with its claim that it has developed a machine that can create free and totally clean energy. (Sept. 12)


On 11/24/06, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqQKnSlPss  - Steorn original intro.. 5minutes3seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDV9Al0e_T0 Steorn Power on Fox News Interview 3min35sec<br>

have fun m8s



On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong < rongdong99 yahoo.com> wrote:

--- Terry Blanton < hohlraum gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong <rongdong99@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but
> > promises to do so soon.
>
> I have personally measured his original device to
> have a COP of 2.4.
> A revised configuration, which I am not yet at
> liberty to discuss, has
> demonstrated a greater COP.
>
> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE
>
>
That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a
public demonstration? It looks like Steorn will be
several months before they are ready to launch their
device / products; if the Sprain motor can get to the
public ahead of them, the investment money should be
considerable.




____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com




--
++++
http://www.lackluster.org/
http://www.lackluster.org/shop/



--
++++
http://www.lackluster.org/
http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_31250_1227687.1164399705280-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 12:31:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOKVfhL028961; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:31:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOKVcMn028928; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:31:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:31:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:31:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating > electricity. > > http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm > > > Harry > follow-up the piezoelectric freeway... http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/piezo_20motorway_20(freeway) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 13:00:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOL03vS025190; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:00:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOKurHs023504; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:56:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:56:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:56:46 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164401806" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5032 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164401806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Nagel writes C = 3.135*10^-25 F and we seem to differ by a factor of two. BTW, this is pretty well known, are you claiming the idea??? I've not got a reference at hand, but I'm sure a little searching would turn up something... K. ................................ Thank you for you comment Keith. No, I am not claiming to have discovered the value of capacitance of a proton. r=1.4 x 10-15m. It is well known. It is sort of one of those uninteresting facts that no one cares about, except perhaps me. The field of physics is divided into two camps; Quantum and classical. The quantum regime is considered to be preeminent. The classical world falls out as large numbers of quantum events occur. I disagree with this. I believe that the quantum regime is a subset of the classical universe. I believe that there is a minimum of stray capacitance that can be experienced by a particle. This minimum of stray capacitance is a classical phenomena. It is a property of the universe. The quantum regime falls out a consequence of this classical property. I started with 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads and developed the quantum regime from this first principle. I got the same answers, however, I employed an underlying classical premise. I did not come directly to Planck's constant from this approach. I came to 1.09 megahertz-meters as a fundamental quantum constant. With a little math 1.09 meters/sec can be converted to Planck's constant. I hope you understand Keith _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) Frank Z -------------------------------1164401806 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Keith Nagel writes
 
C =3D 3.135*10^-25 F

and we seem to differ by a factor of two.BTW,=20 this is pretty well known, are
you claiming the idea??? I've not got
a= =20 reference at hand, but I'm sure a little
searching would turn up=20 something...

K.
................................
Thank you for you comment Keith.  No, I am not claiming to have=20 discovered the value of capacitance of a proton.  r=3D1.4 x 10-15m.&nbs= p; It=20 is well known.  It is sort of one of those uninteresting facts that no=20= one=20 cares about, except perhaps me. 
 
The field of physics is divided into two camps;  Quantum and=20 classical.  The quantum regime is considered to be preeminent.  Th= e=20 classical world falls out as large numbers of quantum events occur.
 
I disagree with this.  I believe that the quantum regime is a subs= et=20 of the classical universe.  I believe that there is a minimum of stray=20 capacitance that can be experienced by a particle.  This minimum of str= ay=20 capacitance is a classical phenomena.  It is a property of the=20 universe.  The quantum regime falls out a consequence of this classical= =20 property.
 
  I started with 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads and developed the quantum=20 regime from this first principle.  I got the same answers, however, I=20 employed an underlying classical premise.  I did not come directly= to=20 Planck's constant from this approach.  I came to 1.09 megahertz-meters=20= as a=20 fundamental quantum constant.  With a little math 1.09 meters/sec can b= e=20 converted to Planck's constant.
 
I hope you understand Keith
 
http://www.angelfire= .com/scifi2/zpt/index.html
 
 
Frank Z
 -------------------------------1164401806-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 13:14:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOLEEYG005358; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:14:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOLEDmF005338; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:14:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: mrb ap.net Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:14:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2006 21:14:11.0589 (UTC) FILETIME=[7CB03350:01C7100D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Who Kills Planet Earth? Song (lyrics) Status: O X-Status: Who Kills Planet Earth? Tune: Who Killed Davey Moore by Bob Dylan http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/listen2.aspx?type=preview&trackid=8434 Who Kills Planet Earth? Why an’ what’s the blindness worth? “Not I,” says the oil guy “Don’t point your finger at me. I could save it if I cared An’ maybe kept it from this fate, But money’s rollin’ in like mad And endin’ that would be so sad. Too bad the planet has to go, But profit must be first, you know. It isn’t me that kills us all, No, you can’t blame me at all. Who Kills Planet Earth? Why an’ what’s the blindness worth? “Not us,” says the lazy crowd, Whose screams will fill the air so loud It’s too bad children have to die ‘Cause the White House stoops to lie. We didn’t mean for life to end Our selfish ways just would not bend. Great ignorance pervades the land, Where media promotes the bland, It can’t be us that ends it all, No, you can’t blame us at all. Who Kills Planet Earth? Why an’ what’s the blindness worth? “Not me,” says the scientist, Who swings his dogma like a fist. I knew that airplanes couldn’t fly, My textbooks illustrated why. Fusion must be hot as hell, Magnetic systems make us yell. It can’t be me that kills us all, No, you can’t blame me at all. Who Kills Planet Earth? Why an’ what’s the blindness worth? Mark Goldes Aesop Institute %Magnetic Power Inc. See also BRIDGEWALK www.magneticpowerinc.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 13:37:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOLaYRX025624; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:36:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOLaUWX025572; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:36:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:36:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:36:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <018f01c70fa6$d8dbcde0$3800a8c0 zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:36:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAOLaQNZ025509 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:40:25 -0500: Hi Harry, [snip] Is it possible you are confusing weight and mass? (You're certainly confusing me ;) >Michel, > >This time I am being serious. > >If one begins with the postulate that that all weight is >apparent weight then it is easier to understand how >and why weight anomalies might arise. > >Gravity is the tendency of a body to accelerate. >Weight is only a _measure_ of this tendency, and it is >a relative measure at best. A true measure of gravity is 'g'. > >Weight is also used as a measure of inertia, so there >is tendency to confuse inertia and weight. Mind you, in >applied mechanics, one treats weight as if it were >an inertial force. > >Einstein went further and turned the treatment >into a principle of nature, and the theory of general >relativity was born. > >Harry >PS On a half serious note. The condition of >of being over-weight is really the condition >of possessing excess inertia. > >Michel Jullian wrote: > >> I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight minus >> centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at the right >> velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people in orbit or >> in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they obviously still >> experience the Earth's gravitational attraction (weight). >> >> Michel Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 13:38:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOLcDAq028354; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:38:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOLc3Ti028289; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:38:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:38:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:37:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 > -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> >> >> If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when >> moving in a horizontal plane. >> >> Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the less >> you weigh. >> Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. >> Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. >> >> Harry > > Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of > them. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Obviously....but then again maybe free electrons and protons have no weight. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 13:50:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOLo3wY008500; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:50:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOLnvfw008438; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:49:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:49:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:44:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9qpem25bqk6u3boi8u0a3humkaduf6sgen 4ax.com> References: <410-220061152410171853 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:44:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAOLnsCh008406 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:16:15 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating >electricity. > >http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm > This device falls in the "not even wrong" category. Essentially it is an extremely inefficient means of converting the energy in gasoline into electric power. Note that because it makes the surface rougher, the vehicle consumes more gas. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 14:10:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOMA1CF019781; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:10:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOM9xJM019753; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:09:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FA9oIPbSYRp1vfC/M79CG8i8b+BQ9oysBtTrXVM/8+5yY0uDVFQpZ1cqyjmnfzcy; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22006115242292490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:09:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400f69695636498babbb584515f1a0f84e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.101 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating > electricity. > > http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm > > > Harry > > The last time I drove over a concave speed bump aka a "pothole" it cost me a tire and a new wheel. I guess I was going too slow Harry. At 60 mph (0.088 ft/millisecond) against a wheel drop distance of 1/2 * 32.2 ft/second^2 * 0.001 second^2 = 0.0161 ft or 0.193 inches for the first 0.088 feet or 1.056 inches of initial pothole width.(not counting the downward thrust of the wheel by the springs ). This GSU URL will guide you through bigger concave speed bumps "Potholes". with the free fall and trajectory calculators. (spring-shock absorber contribution not included) it covers it all. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html KinergyPower is coming from your gas tank-wallet. The oil interests will endorse it too. :-) Fred > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Glad you're finally getting through, Michel. > > > > BTW. Harry tends to lay down on the job so to speak, hence > > assumes what WalMart calls their "entry level" position. > > > > OTOH, I hear that missionary positions abound in Amsterdam > > if you tend to have a religious bent. > > > > Fred > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 11/24/2006 2:54:25 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >> > >> LOL > >> > >> BTW my posts to Vortex are getting through again since I swapped ISP's, I > > am quite glad. Maybe the list server is equipped with some whimsical > > antispam software blocking all posts from my previous ISP's smtp server? > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> To: > >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:20 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >> > >> > >>> Harry wasn't kidding Michel. He knows this from his experience > >>> moonlighting as a speed-bump at WalMart. > >>> > >>> Fred > >>> > >>>> [Original Message] > >>>> From: Michel Jullian > >>>> To: > >>>> Date: 11/24/2006 2:00:09 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >>>> > >>>> I guess Harry was teasing us by referring to apparent weight = weight > >>> minus centrifugal force. This obviously can be zero when traveling at > > the > >>> right velocity over the surface of the Earth, in the same way as people > > in > >>> orbit or in free fall are weightless, but only apparently since they > >>> obviously still experience the Earth's gravitational attraction > > (weight). > >>>> > >>>> Michel > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >>>> To: > >>>> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:14 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 23 Nov 2006 14:25:19 > >>>>> -0500: > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> [snip] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If charged particles have weight then they would weigh less when > >>>>>> moving in a horizontal plane. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Why? Because the faster you travel over the surface of the Earth, the > >>> less > >>>>>> you weigh. > >>>>>> Weight is maximum when you are not travelling. > >>>>>> Weight is minimum ( ~ zero ) when you are travelling at ~ 17000 mph. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Harry > >>>>> > >>>>> Charged particles obviously have weight. Everything is made of > >>>>> them. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Robin van Spaandonk > >>>>> > >>>>> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >>>>> > >>>>> Competition provides the motivation, > >>>>> Cooperation provides the means. > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 14:30:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAOMU7ho004620; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:30:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAOMODTN001483; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:24:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:24:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:37:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, OK, I see where we differ. I'm using this value for radius of electron. http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectronRadius.html For the proton, using that capacity of sphere formula, I get... ~.9 x 10^-25 Farads using the proton radius here. http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Proton.html I guess talking about the "radius" of either of these two particles is a bit misleading, a sort of "lumped" analysis where a distributed one is in order. It is remarkable to me that the voltages there particles are at range from 1/2 to 2 million volts. Freds discussion about a (sort of) distributed model had too many hands for me to comment on *grin*. K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:57 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Keith Nagel writes C = 3.135*10^-25 F and we seem to differ by a factor of two. BTW, this is pretty well known, are you claiming the idea??? I've not got a reference at hand, but I'm sure a little searching would turn up something... K. ................................ Thank you for you comment Keith. No, I am not claiming to have discovered the value of capacitance of a proton. r=1.4 x 10-15m. It is well known. It is sort of one of those uninteresting facts that no one cares about, except perhaps me. The field of physics is divided into two camps; Quantum and classical. The quantum regime is considered to be preeminent. The classical world falls out as large numbers of quantum events occur. I disagree with this. I believe that the quantum regime is a subset of the classical universe. I believe that there is a minimum of stray capacitance that can be experienced by a particle. This minimum of stray capacitance is a classical phenomena. It is a property of the universe. The quantum regime falls out a consequence of this classical property. I started with 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads and developed the quantum regime from this first principle. I got the same answers, however, I employed an underlying classical premise. I did not come directly to Planck's constant from this approach. I came to 1.09 megahertz-meters as a fundamental quantum constant. With a little math 1.09 meters/sec can be converted to Planck's constant. I hope you understand Keith http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 15:46:55 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAONkWGM014747; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:46:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAONkSuI014706; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:46:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:46:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M/YBOAVVUew0zEEFl+pgZ5pehKxC9N6E5clSsJ5RkzbLTD/UOiJCfs4QkVq3sj2zdHPfowAgtOnSPqMN2mFtPHiujNDR0dnp79NR5zZzzzc//E1ErtJGuaj3/6FX0mmgViRXv1+N+5vgBzYafg9v8ly9tzys6k3CRghRiKzeDp8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:46:24 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/24/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > That's good to hear. Any idea when there will be a > public demonstration? Well, there's already been several. Here's one vid that is still on the web: http://overunity.com/sprain/sprain_motor_eg_show.asf And, his test data is on this site: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ Those more competent than I have confirmed his measurements. Recently we were able to run an Ecosmart (neat story there) generator to power a load at a net COP of about 3.2 including the inefficiency ('bout 50%) of the PEM gen (thanks Jones!) But, this was with a modified version of the motor compared to the data on the sites above. A much larger version is under construction. Oddly, the manufacturer of the custom magnet said shipment is delayed due to "inavailability of materials". Otherwise it was due next month. A representative from M Int'l. has been dispatched to Magnequench to see what the story is there. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 16:01:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP01oix025391; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:01:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP01nEY025380; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:01:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:01:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=te2bHOAWjp8/oYASZHI00POqHKAwrXJKnYk60JW//B5bnvg9fmJF9tZJa8dKkm+Wttr6uR97cYbgXD69oiXDvdIS2zV3H19wxhqflHVPAzsJUO8OZxllOS7bdCbmnurpvYZ/FY6L7rnFyC/W4u/X2w2N5/9hRTNqkvrBQNQ9tSs= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:01:47 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <6XRmu.A.cMG.sf4ZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Status: O X-Status: Vorts, While spying on my neighbors about a mile away, Tournament Players Club, aka Sugarloaf Country Club, I came across this image: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=34.010799,-84.115362&spn=0.004562,0. 007231&t=k&om=1 http://tinyurl.com/wclkj Now, if that is a dirigible, where's the shadow? Does Google do this for fun? Or is it a UFO? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 16:05:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP05H0n027320; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:05:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP05FUA027295; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:05:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:05:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ui9klWxHyrOx1txkIRrmeYOsW1urcaWow49ks9M4G5OmQQdvqV7O1ESRdrA3RN+gGwRETGaatOzesIEVPk5HUi0EYMRGgumQobLgNLbQhZTM2UJ0Yu5uNN8fLN8p3pUyH7eAAw9Ydd5RpYwphy9N8kyTXJUGj93lln6QNSO3jOM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:05:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <-SFDGB.A.VqG.7i4ZFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You have to click on "satellite" to see the dirigible. Terry On 11/24/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > Vorts, > > While spying on my neighbors about a mile away, Tournament Players > Club, aka Sugarloaf Country Club, I came across this image: > > http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=34.010799,-84.115362&spn=0.004562,0. > 007231&t=k&om=1 > > http://tinyurl.com/wclkj > > Now, if that is a dirigible, where's the shadow? Does Google do this > for fun? Or is it a UFO? > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 16:40:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP0e6LU021759; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:40:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP0XacS018512; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:33:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:33:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I make an explicit distinction between inertial mass and gravitational mass. Lets call them m' for inertial mass and m~ for gravitational mass. If a is an acceleration due to an inertial force, and g is the acceleration due to gravity, then weight = (m~)(g) inertial force = (m')(a) See my illustration for the conjectured dependence of m~ on speed. http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/dynamics/testing_weightNOV2006.pdf Now m' is not suppose to decrease with horizontal speed. If m~ decreases with horizontal speed then m' is different from m~. Harry Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:40:25 -0500: > Hi Harry, > [snip] > > Is it possible you are confusing weight and mass? (You're certainly confusing > me > ;) > >> Michel, >> >> This time I am being serious. >> >> If one begins with the postulate that that all weight is >> apparent weight then it is easier to understand how >> and why weight anomalies might arise. >> >> Gravity is the tendency of a body to accelerate. >> Weight is only a _measure_ of this tendency, and it is >> a relative measure at best. A true measure of gravity is 'g'. >> >> Weight is also used as a measure of inertia, so there >> is tendency to confuse inertia and weight. Mind you, in >> applied mechanics, one treats weight as if it were >> an inertial force. >> >> Einstein went further and turned the treatment >> into a principle of nature, and the theory of general >> relativity was born. >> >> Harry >> PS On a half serious note. The condition of >> of being over-weight is really the condition >> of possessing excess inertia. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 16:49:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP0mgHl027324; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:48:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP0mdFh027292; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:48:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:48:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=h9KcmC59AksgpXiv56xeqwIdjgvkjix2VC0VLXEThVe68GQF1HnRcs9yda2jnGFKZsFqPqpSFlFzUI1cbrIynyPCotXKzKcd9Zk/IshuEM1Pxi73b2SEBxfh2bX8eokz851zEkr00oNOi7NKF3e1LTf8T3h718zWJCuyGdQ1ABM= ; X-YMail-OSG: 2nSDObAVM1kogrEgIEkPLfYlWPTscjtlRb9XyD3VWX8MqZGjhLhWnBZMxOsAQykIFukKkn4ijjbQ42QynW843_jvl5GmaiXcZvPOC49sLnABgopgDyvLpw-- Message-ID: <014301c7102b$6f83df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <763843.66627.qm@web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:48:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Recently we were able to run an Ecosmart (neat story there) > generator to power a load at a net COP of about 3.2 including > the inefficiency ('bout 50%) of the PEM gen (thanks Jones!) OK for the record, TB is being sarcastic - yes, that generator may have turned out to be only 50% efficient at very low speed, but is still has very high efficiency potential - at anything above a snail's pace - not my fault! Terry asked me to recommend a high efficiency generator, and I sent him the idea and info on rewinding the Ecosmart, which he did. As have others - it is an excellent low cost generator for home windmills etc. This motor is made by Fisher & Paykel in OZ but available here for a fair price. At even 1000 RPM they have told me the generator should be 95% eff. - but hey - Terry wanted to run it a less than 100 RPM ! and without gearing it up ! Bad Idea. Many motors have very high drop-offs in eff. when run out of spec and - worst of all - it would have been relatively easy to gear this thing up with two bicycle sprocket-pairs and chains - if it had been done from the git-go - which they never did. Pity because this generator coulda/shoulda been enough to allow self-power --- if--- that is, Sprain truly does have that much COP margin to play with (despite Terry's formidable skills, I am not convinced of that large margin from what I've seen on the site he has referenced). But then again, nobody slows/tells everything... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 17:09:06 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP18k63017173; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:08:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP18fID017112; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:08:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:08:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:08:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAP18cX8017056 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well spotted Terry, if you zoom in on the dirigible you can see very clearly that the photo has been faked :) Either for fun, or maybe to hide what was visible at that place on the original photo? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs > You have to click on "satellite" to see the dirigible. > > Terry > > On 11/24/06, Terry Blanton wrote: >> Vorts, >> >> While spying on my neighbors about a mile away, Tournament Players >> Club, aka Sugarloaf Country Club, I came across this image: >> >> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=34.010799,-84.115362&spn=0.004562,0. >> 007231&t=k&om=1 >> >> http://tinyurl.com/wclkj >> >> Now, if that is a dirigible, where's the shadow? Does Google do this >> for fun? Or is it a UFO? >> >> Terry >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 17:16:15 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP1G3Pk025991; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:16:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP1G2Y7025967; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:16:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:16:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ddwzXYqvGImhOPph13+MDInTABajFkPGXctnZOPYluXWXFMw7ZAUNyM+Y4iEYSHYykK75m/3MD1O0+cL/pqi7mUns3uq4GeedQ9QB2ymvJV0v8ZXc9u+YfqFm7s4SHOsFYGX/zii+/JixWEl3QuOvbnR3QJ0yY62B1S04E9fj6Y= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:16:01 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs In-Reply-To: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/24/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > Well spotted Terry, if you zoom in on the dirigible you can see very clearly that the photo has been faked :) > > Either for fun, or maybe to hide what was visible at that place on the original photo? Interesting! The people who live here own houses in the $3M+ range. So, was Nicole Kidman skinny dipping in the back yard pool? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 17:23:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP1NEi7030321; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:23:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP1NBTj030287; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:23:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:23:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022c01c71030$45c3c140$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:23:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAP1N835030228 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Will you resist the temptation to go and have a look Terry? Who knows, she may still be there ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs > On 11/24/06, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Well spotted Terry, if you zoom in on the dirigible you can see very clearly that the photo has been faked :) >> >> Either for fun, or maybe to hide what was visible at that place on the original photo? > > Interesting! The people who live here own houses in the $3M+ range. > So, was Nicole Kidman skinny dipping in the back yard pool? :-) > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 17:25:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP1PQp7031402; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:25:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP1PL5u031368; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:25:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:25:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=AX9iOVV/Y1993roO8V/vICPM8sKrQGQBEr6hqL2Zn88pkvOf0zQJtMlRuyFo3DF9/Twko5BHIKWlixhLIf8awtjttu16vprzWf6O/3SnBdc+2aK9F6h4EgRVf1GsPT9UCmsYa53CxD9C9clJ6PdtM/sgq+FB3OVRvFwwAgeit94= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:25:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <014301c7102b$6f83df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <763843.66627.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <014301c7102b$6f83df60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/24/06, Jones Beene wrote: > OK for the record, TB is being sarcastic - yes, that generator may > have turned out to be only 50% efficient at very low speed, but is > still has very high efficiency potential - at anything above a > snail's pace - not my fault! Not scarcism, please! No, you misunderstand, true appreciation since we had found nothing which was comparable. (The humor is in the name "Ecosmart".) http://www.ecosmart.com > Terry asked me to recommend a high efficiency generator, and I > sent him the idea and info on rewinding the Ecosmart, which he > did. As have others - it is an excellent low cost generator for > home windmills etc. > > This motor is made by Fisher & Paykel in OZ but available here for > a fair price. At even 1000 RPM they have told me the generator > should be 95% eff. - but hey - Terry wanted to run it a less than > 100 RPM ! and without gearing it up ! Ackshully, NZ; but, that could be OZ, too. It is directly driven at 90 RPM; and, I truly believe that it is the best that we could have achieved without a custom built gen. > > Bad Idea. Many motors have very high drop-offs in eff. when run > out of spec and - worst of all - it would have been relatively > easy to gear this thing up with two bicycle sprocket-pairs and > chains - if it had been done from the git-go - which they never > did. Pity because this generator coulda/shoulda been enough to > allow self-power --- if--- that is, Sprain truly does have that > much COP margin to play with (despite Terry's formidable skills, I > am not convinced of that large margin from what I've seen on the > site he has referenced). Be patient, Jones. My only challenge at this point is the inductance of the 45# custom built EM. But with only 84 mH inductance and 12 ohm resistance, the rise time is only twice the earlier EM, 7 ms. > But then again, nobody slows/tells everything... Sign the NDA and you will know all. But, it might conflict with your earlier committments. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 17:26:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP1QNcX032192; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:26:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP1QM8n032160; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:26:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:26:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WiJS3pOhf3tclRNQoxTAwh/HW16yFQ+Y/XCoPZzTMgMSG8Dfw9L+AddYiAAsZYMqgrBXm8e3y9pYeFulfs5nTENt5FK5bsB8j9LoVNX87z01OLnznxUs8rSPLLd7nuKaqTsfXXIPXnI3nta/RwZlgyhjHQEjdac//XobFAaOvWk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:26:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs In-Reply-To: <022c01c71030$45c3c140$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0 zothan> <022c01c71030$45c3c140$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/24/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > Will you resist the temptation to go and have a look Terry? Who knows, she may still be there ;-) Alas, it's a gated community. :-( Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 18:09:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP298oO005743; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:09:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP2963V005711; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:09:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:09:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=MU9U1Q0tHu0RlV95G6M0+MkYT9dYzBLjYWKI4xoU03wUl8He3Ws/SyPWbt/Ieb9IF2EKaR/Lz1v3eL+TX+DuxnGG4TX6R2v8B8SM13LubGUPcwYiZRAnFY8o7GRl2JuhwODbUfKtqxLIoGeHobfRrwbBS3zdn8z2mtMJJktsNSs=; X-YMail-OSG: dCJFAPwVM1kbo.K16iKnpdXxbHv1XjorieK5Yg5WZ9TeFl53KdDh9qA4kLl.VO1nHappyxAV_my3sanIClJzF3G6ILylN_B7418ZuTLOdJqEypOwnXxD3_K_9lzj4np4BtiPL6Pwkarh8PhwRdXCT0pJ5YBuK0AnERT8fqASNNNDYwNWr7qZoBG5M6D64mMmtQUA6PSxljRSVi8ZuL0- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:09:03 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Arnold To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <872596.66081.qm web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: unsubscribe - Please ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 19:19:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP3IqN4019782; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:18:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP3IoNX019767; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:18:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:18:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:19:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <410-22006115242292490 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating >> electricity. >> >> http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm >> >> >> Harry >> >> > The last time I drove over a concave speed bump aka a "pothole" it > cost me a tire and a new wheel. I guess I was going too slow Harry. I suppose it is concave, but this version, called the Electro-Kinetic Road Ramp, is slightly convex. Diagram (1.4 MB) http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/Pictures_Videos/Pics/Ramp_1/ Full_Ramp_Guide_Thumb.jpg Frequently Asked Questions http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/FAQs.htm > At 60 mph (0.088 ft/millisecond) against a wheel drop distance of > 1/2 * 32.2 ft/second^2 * 0.001 second^2 = 0.0161 ft or 0.193 inches > for the first 0.088 feet or 1.056 inches of initial pothole width.(not > counting > the downward thrust of the wheel by the springs ). > > This GSU URL will guide you through bigger concave speed bumps "Potholes". > with the free fall and trajectory calculators. (spring-shock absorber > contribution not included) > it covers it all. > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html > > KinergyPower is coming from your gas tank-wallet. The oil interests will > endorse it too. :-) > > Fred Before you jump to conclusions about the value of such devices, please read the FAQ above. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 24 20:21:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP4LOeu005312; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:21:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP4LMD9005293; Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:21:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:21:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <9qpem25bqk6u3boi8u0a3humkaduf6sgen 4ax.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 15:16:15 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating >> electricity. >> >> http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm >> > This device falls in the "not even wrong" category. Essentially it is an > extremely inefficient means of converting the energy in gasoline into electric > power. Note that because it makes the surface rougher, the vehicle consumes > more > gas. > The Electro-Kinetic Road Ramp is similar system. This FAQ page explains how they can be employed without causing the vehicle to consume more gasoline. FAQ http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/FAQs.htm Diagram (1.4 MB) http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/Pictures_Videos/Pics/Ramp_1/ Full_Ramp_Guide_Thumb.jpg Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 01:41:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAP9fQix008777; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:41:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAP9fNlr008740; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:41:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:41:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MTZvRD2lQhFgi4M+qMh4epZPe/JMyiYAx1sr8dguKdXoalGqc5Uclv3xrrrv8SZ7; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061162594058446 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 02:40:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94035520c67f8068c3c7ee9335c351740c6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.80 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No need to do 17,000 mph to get into weightlessness, a well designed speed bump will do it for you (parabolic trajectory) at 30 mph more or less. Personally I prefer electro-dynamic braking better than treadmills built into the highway to save gas and maintenance costs, Harry. Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlessness " So clearly it is possible to experience zero-g without going into space. Any aircraft can do this by pushing it over into a parabolic arc. Even any car that hits a bump fast enough to leave the ground will experience zero-g for the time that the wheels are not in contact with the road." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
No need to do 17,000 mph to get into weightlessness,
a well designed speed bump will do  it for you (parabolic trajectory) at 30 mph
more or less.
 
Personally I prefer electro-dynamic braking better than treadmills built into
the highway to save gas and maintenance costs, Harry.
 
Fred
 
 
" So clearly it is possible to experience zero-g without going into space. Any aircraft can do this by pushing it over into a parabolic arc. Even any car that hits a bump fast enough to leave the ground will experience zero-g for the time that the wheels are not in contact with the road."
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 04:00:09 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPC03ZA012360; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:00:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPBxUtk012034; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:59:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 03:59:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <026e01c71085$52ff3420$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:32:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAPBxROB011999 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Q1. Doesn't the ramp just steal pennies from our petrol tanks? A1. The ramp is designed to be situated in parts of the roadway where vehicles are having to slow down anyway, for example on downhill gradients, when approaching traffic lights or roundabouts as well as being used to replace sleeping policemen and traditional traffic calming measures. In the these situations, the kinetic energy of the car is being dissipated into heat (i.e. through the braking system) anyway; the ramp at this point scavenges a degree of kinetic energy as the car passes over it, but this is far less than is lost through other mechanisms."Harry, this "technology" is ridiculous, and so is the argument above, as hybrid and fully electric cars feature kinetic energy recuperation already.Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> >>> Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating >>> electricity. >>> >>> http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm >>> >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> >> The last time I drove over a concave speed bump aka a "pothole" it >> cost me a tire and a new wheel. I guess I was going too slow Harry. > > I suppose it is concave, but this version, called the Electro-Kinetic Road > Ramp, is slightly convex. > > Diagram (1.4 MB) > http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/Pictures_Videos/Pics/Ramp_1/ > Full_Ramp_Guide_Thumb.jpg > > Frequently Asked Questions > http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/FAQs.htm > > >> At 60 mph (0.088 ft/millisecond) against a wheel drop distance of >> 1/2 * 32.2 ft/second^2 * 0.001 second^2 = 0.0161 ft or 0.193 inches >> for the first 0.088 feet or 1.056 inches of initial pothole width.(not >> counting >> the downward thrust of the wheel by the springs ). >> >> This GSU URL will guide you through bigger concave speed bumps "Potholes". >> with the free fall and trajectory calculators. (spring-shock absorber >> contribution not included) >> it covers it all. >> >> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html >> >> KinergyPower is coming from your gas tank-wallet. The oil interests will >> endorse it too. :-) >> >> Fred > > Before you jump to conclusions about the value of such devices, please read > the FAQ above. > > > Harry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 04:32:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPCW4FJ010146; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:32:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPCW1do010100; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:32:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:32:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=n9SsRLnIItLBvImCEDX+9Mw3yeP7WMwRwZe7OcDTo5r0SUJ8U75B7vzdeP/WPQd/Z3ZXs1bIAitp+H+nsHPyj/G6ImE7I9OJLjB1ZSkC50WOZ7OvBzhtY5mNbUiuMi8A3yuYPhhxLKrTITldsfBVRMqRvU7Qnv5z34R6wfn88ew=; X-YMail-OSG: JLxDYHEVM1nbMTq76DFl7h6555hqmFY1f8WP19xgazuAXTxfDWy3TEjDODmS23YipYTVxwYO6QuwNEXWCnCXL._CEkaEFTcXN0ygfM9_VYJ39GW8.4QnmJZdAh3qm4g_5rjLizxa_BnV2w-- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Arnold Subject: Re: [Vo]: unsubscribe - "Please" To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <872596.66081.qm web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <561193.26452.qm web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Christopher Arnold wrote: > > unsubscribe - Please > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail > beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 04:34:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPCK385030605; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:20:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPCBACR021662; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:11:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:11:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c7108a$c731a800$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0@zothan> <022c01c71030$45c3c140$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:10:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not so sure that it was faked. If true, this airship was flying several hundred to a thousand feet above the ground. Taking the sun angle and direction from cars and building shadows, the shadow of the airship should be at least 1000 to 2000 feet away. I saw a couple of candidates for the missing shadow but the best one can be found by turning right off Leaf land drive NW onto Post Oak drive NW. After about 200 feet there is a bend to the left - on the outside of this bend there is a house with a clearly defined roof shadow but "upsun" of the house (South East) is what looks like a diffuse ovoid shadow. Looking at the angle the airship is to the sun, this shape would be expected and it would be diffuse because of the diffraction at that distance from the source. Or not! Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 05:57:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPDun7K017943; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 05:56:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPDukHs017903; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 05:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 05:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CDpmi3TOL8/SAEPohShZ0aRYkUKzmyrgc4vB8cDSiCD/yyTjgiFtwC7iQTfe4pgCWoPfbOSt7eBLg8/x66wVQmwFl5N/VjSsbLNKV21lnqyL9SLnT6jJ7CiOlOSIKVgyiwNWmUe5PLCmE8WpGezunmfJ+qa7URQYs9zIp6jWy2E= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:56:44 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <872596.66081.qm web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <872596.66081.qm web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As before, you must send a null message to vortex-l-request eskimo.com with the subject header saying unsubscribe. On 11/24/06, Christopher Arnold wrote: > > unsubscribe - Please > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 06:23:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPEMnx4008823; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPEMmTZ008805; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:22:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:22:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <029e01c7109d$2c9dfdd0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <022601c7102e$3dd815a0$3800a8c0@zothan> <022c01c71030$45c3c140$3800a8c0@zothan> <003f01c7108a$c731a800$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:22:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAPEMfRZ008723 Resent-Message-ID: <4gJWcB.A.eJC.3GFaFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's definitely faked. Zoom in and look at the outline of the blimp. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs > I'm not so sure that it was faked. If true, this airship was flying several > hundred to a thousand feet above the ground. Taking the sun angle and > direction from cars and building shadows, the shadow of the airship should > be at least 1000 to 2000 feet away. > > I saw a couple of candidates for the missing shadow but the best one can be > found by turning right off Leaf land drive NW onto Post Oak drive NW. After > about 200 feet there is a bend to the left - on the outside of this bend > there is a house with a clearly defined roof shadow but "upsun" of the house > (South East) is what looks like a diffuse ovoid shadow. Looking at the angle > the airship is to the sun, this shape would be expected and it would be > diffuse because of the diffraction at that distance from the source. Or not! > > Nick Palmer > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 07:05:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPEtMLs030778; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:55:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPEtKPe030721; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:55:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:55:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=p4C47+S8lR5C5dQbnj4lsceM0fRwrNWgXbW/H8qXKasgh2yj604PpOy2f01YWHKD; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611625145450951 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:54:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94034d033a4389b7fae427c3a3318707078350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > "Q1. Doesn't the ramp just steal pennies from our petrol tanks? > > A1. The ramp is designed to be situated in parts of the roadway where > vehicles are having to slow down anyway, for example on downhill > gradients, when approaching traffic lights or roundabouts as well as > being used to replace sleeping policemen and traditional traffic > calming measures. In the these situations, the kinetic energy of the > car is being dissipated into heat (i.e. through the braking system) > anyway; the ramp at this point scavenges a degree of kinetic energy > as the car passes over it, but this is far less than is lost through > other mechanisms." > > Harry, this "technology" is ridiculous, and so is the argument above, as hybrid and > fully electric cars feature kinetic energy recuperation already. > >Michel > Ludicrous is the more fitting terminology. The examiners at the patent office have a sense of humor too. OTOH. It sheds new light on the meaning of Beltways, and the "Beltway Bandits". Fred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > >> Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> > >>> Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating > >>> electricity. > >>> > >>> http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> Harry > >>> > >>> > >> The last time I drove over a concave speed bump aka a "pothole" it > >> cost me a tire and a new wheel. I guess I was going too slow Harry. > > > > I suppose it is concave, but this version, called the Electro-Kinetic Road > > Ramp, is slightly convex. > > > > Diagram (1.4 MB) > > http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/Pictures_Videos/Pics/Ramp_1/ > > Full_Ramp_Guide_Thumb.jpg > > > > Frequently Asked Questions > > http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/FAQs.htm > > > > > >> At 60 mph (0.088 ft/millisecond) against a wheel drop distance of > >> 1/2 * 32.2 ft/second^2 * 0.001 second^2 = 0.0161 ft or 0.193 inches > >> for the first 0.088 feet or 1.056 inches of initial pothole width.(not > >> counting > >> the downward thrust of the wheel by the springs ). > >> > >> This GSU URL will guide you through bigger concave speed bumps "Potholes". > >> with the free fall and trajectory calculators. (spring-shock absorber > >> contribution not included) > >> it covers it all. > >> > >> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html > >> > >> KinergyPower is coming from your gas tank-wallet. The oil interests will > >> endorse it too. :-) > >> > >> Fred > > > > Before you jump to conclusions about the value of such devices, please read > > the FAQ above. > > > > > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 07:38:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPFbmB3030904; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:37:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPFbkJH030865; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:37:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:37:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=j56IBaY5SEtc8OLy7FO1mZ7wKqbRMozZvx7tsaxxr51V9b4kXgdAS8bjf0G/3vTz; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611625153727144 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:37:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c1dda787e739f33d464f71ab0120985f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.184 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Toroid Railroad Generator Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While we're on the subject of "ridiculous" ways to extract energy from moving machinery, why not a robotic-coal-fired train with carloads of super-magnets going around in a circle inside a toroid "tunnel"? Over-Unity "Roll-Around" possible with computerized hydraulic-gravity-enhanced downgrade? Kits available by 11-31-06. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
While we're on the subject of "ridiculous" ways to extract
energy from moving machinery, why not a robotic-coal-fired train with carloads
of super-magnets going around in a circle inside a toroid "tunnel"?
 
Over-Unity "Roll-Around" possible with computerized hydraulic-gravity-enhanced downgrade?
 
Kits available by 11-31-06.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="dburns2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: dburns2.vcf Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dburns2.vcf" QkVHSU46VkNBUkQNClZFUlNJT046Mi4xDQpOOjtkYnVybnMyOzsNCkZOOmRidXJuczINCk5JQ0tO QU1FOg0KT1JHOjsNClRJVExFOg0KVEVMO0hPTUU7Vk9JQ0U6DQpURUw7V09SSztWT0lDRToNClRF TDtDRUxMO1ZPSUNFOg0KVEVMO1BBR0VSO1ZPSUNFOg0KVEVMO0hPTUU7RkFYOg0KVEVMO1dPUks7 RkFYOg0KQURSO0hPTUU6Ozs7Ozs7DQpBRFI7V09SSzo7Ozs7OzsNClVSTDtIT01FOg0KVVJMO1dP Uks6DQpCREFZOjAwMDANCkFOTklWOjAwMDANClNQT1VTRToNCkZBTUlMWToNCkVNQUlMO1BSRUY7 SU5URVJORVQ6ZGJ1cm5zMkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA0KTk9URToNCklNO1BSRUY7SU5URVJORVQ6Ow0K SU07SU5URVJORVQ6Ow0KSU07SU5URVJORVQ6Ow0KVkNBUkRfRU5EOlZDQVJEDQo= ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 07:40:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPFeDod002210; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:40:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPFXOqt026772; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:33:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:33:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:26:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel Status: O X-Status: Interesting if accurate: http://www.upi.com/Energy/view.php?StoryID=20061107-070924-5161r And the CO2phobes begin to scream in 5...4...3...2.... If indeed workable, we can begin 2 things almost immediately, if played right: 1. Rapidly shut down U.S. reliance on foreign oil imports, ideally ending them altogether. 2. If it is so cheap, use the excess profits (well, some anyways, got to give the companies some incentive) to begin constructing solar facilities in the desert. This will take some pretty serious regulation, but should be done. The oil shale, if this works as well as it seems, may be our last chance to get off our collective rear ends and set up permanently renewable energy sources, while having a nice buffer of cheap, profit-making energy during the time of transition. I can see the oil companies (if not involved in the oil shale conversion process) and the envirofascists (this does not include all those who are environmentalists, just the whackjobs) being the two greatest threats to doing this. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 07:52:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPFpsO6014413; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:51:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPFprGr014388; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:51:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 07:51:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=GAI9L1k1OHqfnVGiXuAz+5UY16pPrHUaQlYzuTdCvWe7Qo/qGvLBLu42LcIx+PHwrIbxotjB3joZEgOjlBtIVrMS1u0LOVUoggC8ZfL7pEzeoV87sRQbPx0E4aHBSKROghrJ7c+uZSuwdMHkNqdn3SvqW6pQ7I7VvmVozEmGbwc= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611250751ue2f45d9y3d06d4ef58b47b95 mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:51:48 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_38921_2377905.1164469908242" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: might as well start going off about the rotorverter then. Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_38921_2377905.1164469908242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline its a method of using a off-the-shelf low-horsepower electric motor, to produce 3x as much energy than is going in. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6905677911913482159 <- video http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/arkresearch/rotoverter.htm http://panacea-bocaf.org/RotoVerter.htm http://peswiki.com/index.php/Rotoverter feel free to piss all over it - but maybe check what it does first so you know what it is. p.s. its fun to be against steorn "from the start". isnt it? gives you a opinion to have, doesn't it? and thats fun, isn't it? ------=_Part_38921_2377905.1164469908242 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

its a method of using a off-the-shelf  low-horsepower  electric motor,  to produce  3x as much energy  than is going in.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6905677911913482159  <- video
http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/arkresearch/rotoverter.htm
http://panacea-bocaf.org/RotoVerter.htm


http://peswiki.com/index.php/Rotoverter


feel free to piss all over it - but maybe check what it does first so you know what it is.

p.s. its fun to be against steorn "from the start". isnt it? gives you a opinion to have, doesn't it? and thats fun, isn't it?

------=_Part_38921_2377905.1164469908242-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 08:17:02 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPGGfih006445; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:16:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPGGeU8006419; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:16:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:16:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:16:30 EST Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164471390" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5032 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164471390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is remarkable to me that the voltages there particles are at range from 1/2 to 2 million volts. Freds discussion about a (sort of) distributed model had too many hands for me to comment on *grin*. K. .............................................. I hope that I am not the source of the several that have unsupscriped from this list. This, as you have said, this is remarkable. What is even more remarkable is; compute the capacitance of a sphere 13.3 billion light years in diameter. Reduce this valve of capacitance by the gravitational coupling constant. You will get 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads. Is the capacitance of the universe established by the gravitational field and its bounds? Is this universe capacitively coupled to everything within it? It think so. _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html) What do you think? Frank Z -------------------------------1164471390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is remarkable to me that the voltages there particles are
at rang= e=20 from 1/2 to 2 million volts.

Freds discussion about a (sort of)=20 distributed model had
too many hands for me to comment on=20 *grin*.

K.
..............................................
I hope that I am not the source of the several that have unsupscriped f= rom=20 this list.
 
This, as you have said,  this is remarkable.  What is even mo= re=20 remarkable is; compute the capacitance of a sphere 13.3 billion light years=20= in=20 diameter.  Reduce this valve of capacitance by the gravitational coupli= ng=20 constant.  You will get 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads.
 
 Is the capacitance of the universe established by the gravitation= al=20 field and its bounds?  Is this universe capacitively coupled to=20 everything within it?  It think so.
 
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html
 
What do you think?
 
Frank Z
 -------------------------------1164471390-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 08:50:05 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPGnuWF030510; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:49:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPGnph2030462; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:49:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:49:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:49:42 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c710b1$b4c00f50$6401a8c0 REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AccQow3DXVH8a349TwegpQdXgSoguwAB+3EgAAGjNyA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [Vo]: weight and charge Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec ptd.net] Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'fjsparber earthlink.net' Subject: RE: [Vo]: weight and charge I didn't follow all of this thread, but an interesting thought occurred to me that may have been considered and rejected already. Rather than use hydraulic shocks on vehicles that convert energy into waste heat, why not use electro magnetic shocks and put the energy back into the battery? Additionally, electronic controls would allow the driver to adjust the feel of the ride to anything he wants at the touch of a button. Any thoughts on how much this could extend the range of an electric car? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 10:09:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPI8tf7017361; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:08:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPI8rlf017345; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:08:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:08:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:22:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, You should try moving to my universe, it's twice as large and we won't be bumping into each other as much *grin* But seriously, why do our calculations differ? If my derivation is wrong, can you show me why? Let's at least nail that down before we tackle the entire universe... K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:17 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads It is remarkable to me that the voltages there particles are at range from 1/2 to 2 million volts. Freds discussion about a (sort of) distributed model had too many hands for me to comment on *grin*. K. .............................................. I hope that I am not the source of the several that have unsupscriped from this list. This, as you have said, this is remarkable. What is even more remarkable is; compute the capacitance of a sphere 13.3 billion light years in diameter. Reduce this valve of capacitance by the gravitational coupling constant. You will get 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads. Is the capacitance of the universe established by the gravitational field and its bounds? Is this universe capacitively coupled to everything within it? It think so. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html What do you think? Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 11:21:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPJLEXe011910; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:21:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPJL2kM011718; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:21:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:21:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <026e01c71085$52ff3420$3800a8c0 zothan> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Think about it. The energy generated is not meant to power vehicles. It is meant to power the traffic systems that driver's utilise. The energy costs of operating a vehicle are not just the cost of filling the gas tank or recharging a fuel cell or battery. These costs are born by municipal governments, which in turn are born by local taxpayers ... you do the math. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > "Q1. Doesn't the ramp just steal pennies from our petrol tanks? > > A1. The ramp is designed to be situated in parts of the roadway where > vehicles are having to slow down anyway, for example on downhill > gradients, when approaching traffic lights or roundabouts as well as > being used to replace sleeping policemen and traditional traffic > calming measures. In the these situations, the kinetic energy of the > car is being dissipated into heat (i.e. through the braking system) > anyway; the ramp at this point scavenges a degree of kinetic energy > as the car passes over it, but this is far less than is lost through > other mechanisms."Harry, this "technology" is ridiculous, and so is the > argument above, as hybrid and fully electric cars feature kinetic energy > recuperation already.Michel > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge > > >> Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is an example of "little speed bumps" generating >>>> electricity. >>>> >>>> http://www.kinergypower.com/index_files/Page452.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> >>> The last time I drove over a concave speed bump aka a "pothole" it >>> cost me a tire and a new wheel. I guess I was going too slow Harry. >> >> I suppose it is concave, but this version, called the Electro-Kinetic Road >> Ramp, is slightly convex. >> >> Diagram (1.4 MB) >> http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/Pictures_Videos/Pics/Ramp_1/ >> Full_Ramp_Guide_Thumb.jpg >> >> Frequently Asked Questions >> http://www.hughesresearch.co.uk/FAQs.htm >> >> >>> At 60 mph (0.088 ft/millisecond) against a wheel drop distance of >>> 1/2 * 32.2 ft/second^2 * 0.001 second^2 = 0.0161 ft or 0.193 inches >>> for the first 0.088 feet or 1.056 inches of initial pothole width.(not >>> counting >>> the downward thrust of the wheel by the springs ). >>> >>> This GSU URL will guide you through bigger concave speed bumps "Potholes". >>> with the free fall and trajectory calculators. (spring-shock absorber >>> contribution not included) >>> it covers it all. >>> >>> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/traj.html >>> >>> KinergyPower is coming from your gas tank-wallet. The oil interests will >>> endorse it too. :-) >>> >>> Fred >> >> Before you jump to conclusions about the value of such devices, please read >> the FAQ above. >> >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 11:54:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPJeCJn029698; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:45:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPJduTs029233; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:39:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:40:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Toroid Railroad Generator In-reply-to: <410-2200611625153727144 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Fsi7jFjQI7E8xK9pntClhg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Fsi7jFjQI7E8xK9pntClhg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Great idea...but I think extracting energy from landing aircraft would be slightly less ridiculous. Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: While we're on the subject of "ridiculous" ways to extract energy from moving machinery, why not a robotic-coal-fired train with carloads of super-magnets going around in a circle inside a toroid "tunnel"? Over-Unity "Roll-Around" possible with computerized hydraulic-gravity-enhanced downgrade? Kits available by 11-31-06. Fred --Boundary_(ID_Fsi7jFjQI7E8xK9pntClhg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Re:  The Toroid Railroad Generator
Great idea...but I think extracting energy from landing aircraft
would be slightly less ridiculous.

Harry

Frederick Sparber wrote:

While we're on the subject of "ridiculous" ways to extract
energy from moving machinery, why not a robotic-coal-fired train with carloads
of super-magnets going around in a circle inside a toroid "tunnel"?
Over-Unity "Roll-Around" possible with computerized hydraulic-gravity-enhanced downgrade?
Kits available by 11-31-06.
Fred


--Boundary_(ID_Fsi7jFjQI7E8xK9pntClhg)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 11:57:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPJvK3u014553; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:57:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPJvHKr014504; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:57:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:57:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02df01c710cb$e6b11940$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Toroid Railroad Generator Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 20:57:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAPJvDQU014444 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you wish, but not with speed bumps please ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Toroid Railroad Generator > > Great idea...but I think extracting energy from landing aircraft > would be slightly less ridiculous. > > Harry > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > While we're on the subject of "ridiculous" ways to extract > energy from moving machinery, why not a robotic-coal-fired train with > carloads > of super-magnets going around in a circle inside a toroid "tunnel"? > > Over-Unity "Roll-Around" possible with computerized > hydraulic-gravity-enhanced downgrade? > > Kits available by 11-31-06. > > Fred > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 15:20:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAPNKI3k008239; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAPNKGPI008223; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:20:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c710e8$3972a420$d3c5163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <000601c710b1$b4c00f50$6401a8c0 REVTEC1> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:19:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: FW: [Vo]: weight and charge Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Fink" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: [Vo]: FW: [Vo]: weight and charge > Rather than use hydraulic shocks on vehicles that convert energy into > waste > heat, why not use electro magnetic shocks and put the energy back into the > battery? A mechanic comments: 1. The amount of energy you would gain is useless. Ever felt a hot shock? You won't unless it is next to something that is radiating a lot of heat, say, a brake rotor or a rear shock near an exhaust pipe. 2. This would be yet another sucker punch to the working class who are barely able to afford new automobiles as it is. We need to simplify and make them cheaper, not more complex. If efficiency must suffer, so be it. Then the solution is to find a better front-end energy source (read: cheap synthetic fuel) 3. Basic shocks cost between $15.00 and $100.00 for most American cars. A Mercedes-Benz S500's computerized shocks (stupid concept) price around $1200.00 apiece. This is so that people who live in a country the size of a small-end state can cruise at 140+mph, whereas here in the geographically massive USA we get by just fine on 65mph. The added complexity is insane. 4. There are those in government who are trying to impose computerized shocks and such as mandatory equipment on all new cars produced after 2009. In the name of safety of course. This is stupidity. We need better, smarter, more educated drivers who will not NEED another idiot system to correct their own lack of driving sense. Make the licenses harder to get I say. >Additionally, electronic controls would allow the driver to adjust > the feel of the ride to anything he wants at the touch of a button. > Any thoughts on how much this could extend the range of an electric car? To what end? Why? If people wanting smoother rides are the same as those complaining about rising prices of cars and fuel....damn. Jeff I am not flaming you, please understand that. It is just that as a mechanic and one of the 'little guys' who sees my peers getting hurt day in and day out, that I am really beginning to hate the words 'safety' and 'efficiency'. Especially when they are used to line people's pockets. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 21:56:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAQ5uhrb030869; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:56:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAQ5uea2030847; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:56:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:56:33 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel In-reply-to: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611260056.33099.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 25 November 2006 10:26, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Interesting if accurate: > > http://www.upi.com/Energy/view.php?StoryID=20061107-070924-5161r > > And the CO2phobes begin to scream in 5...4...3...2.... > > If indeed workable, we can begin 2 things almost immediately, if played > right: > > 1. Rapidly shut down U.S. reliance on foreign oil imports, ideally ending > them altogether. > 2. If it is so cheap, use the excess profits (well, some anyways, got to > give the companies some incentive) to begin constructing solar facilities > in the desert. This will take some pretty serious regulation, but should be > done. > > The oil shale, if this works as well as it seems, may be our last chance to > get off our collective rear ends and set up permanently renewable energy > sources, while having a nice buffer of cheap, profit-making energy during > the time of transition. I can see the oil companies (if not involved in the > oil shale conversion process) and the envirofascists (this does not include > all those who are environmentalists, just the whackjobs) being the two > greatest threats to doing this. > > --Kyle Kyle, I am afraid that we will always have a serious oversupply of whackjobs. Many of these are sincere wackos, but many others have an ulterior motive for being obstructionists and economic saboteurs. For instance if one wanted to destabilize or harm a nation for any reason, this kind of activity would be one of the most efficient means possible to cause maximum misery to the target population. Those who went along with them for any reason would be the usefull fools that inhabit most any bandwagon. Also, luddites probably will be also found in the pay of major energy producer industries not benefited by this process. Whatever energy we choose to develope, we need to develope it quickly as world events are showing quickening. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 22:03:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAQ63ROk002400; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:03:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAQ63P9o002378; Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:03:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:03:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:02:46 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: FW: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <001401c710e8$3972a420$d3c5163f DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611260102.46028.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <000601c710b1$b4c00f50$6401a8c0 REVTEC1> <001401c710e8$3972a420$d3c5163f DFBGQZ91> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 25 November 2006 18:19, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Fink" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:49 AM > Subject: [Vo]: FW: [Vo]: weight and charge > > > Rather than use hydraulic shocks on vehicles that convert energy into > > waste > > heat, why not use electro magnetic shocks and put the energy back into > > the battery? > > A mechanic comments: > > 1. The amount of energy you would gain is useless. Ever felt a hot shock? > You won't unless it is next to something that is radiating a lot of heat, > say, a brake rotor or a rear shock near an exhaust pipe. > > 2. This would be yet another sucker punch to the working class who are > barely able to afford new automobiles as it is. We need to simplify and > make them cheaper, not more complex. If efficiency must suffer, so be it. > Then the solution is to find a better front-end energy source (read: cheap > synthetic fuel) > > 3. Basic shocks cost between $15.00 and $100.00 for most American cars. A > Mercedes-Benz S500's computerized shocks (stupid concept) price around > $1200.00 apiece. This is so that people who live in a country the size of a > small-end state can cruise at 140+mph, whereas here in the geographically > massive USA we get by just fine on 65mph. The added complexity is insane. > > 4. There are those in government who are trying to impose computerized > shocks and such as mandatory equipment on all new cars produced after 2009. > In the name of safety of course. This is stupidity. We need better, > smarter, more educated drivers who will not NEED another idiot system to > correct their own lack of driving sense. Make the licenses harder to get I > say. > > >Additionally, electronic controls would allow the driver to adjust > > the feel of the ride to anything he wants at the touch of a button. > > Any thoughts on how much this could extend the range of an electric car? > > To what end? Why? If people wanting smoother rides are the same as those > complaining about rising prices of cars and fuel....damn. > > Jeff I am not flaming you, please understand that. It is just that as a > mechanic and one of the 'little guys' who sees my peers getting hurt day in > and day out, that I am really beginning to hate the words 'safety' and > 'efficiency'. Especially when they are used to line people's pockets. > > --Kyle I feel this is not about safety or 'ride'. Rather it is about getting you the working person out of your car. Permanently! If you cannot afford to buy or fix a car, then you will not drive. Period. This is just another way to create another elitist privilege, driving, out of what really is a necessity. Think of the disruption and depression in the USA if workers could not afford to drive! Especially if because of some stupid bureaucratic screwup of a rule. Standing Bear that aint scientific, but neither are starvin people From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 05:45:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAQDjcpV025950; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:45:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAQDjZMf025923; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:45:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:45:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c7115c$d99f07d0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <200611260056.33099.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 13:14:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle, I've got no problem with fuel from oil shale as long as extraction and use 1) does not cause undue damage to the natural species ecologies of the areas 2) does not damage areas of great natural beauty 3 does not delay the introduction of non carbon based energy sources 4) does not delay the point at which the escalating price of oil will render even the currently marginal renewable technologies economical to use. If US oil shale stocks caused the US to stop messing with other people's (oil rich) countries as much that would be great, however as a "get out of jail free" card to escape the coming decline of economically and environmentally extractable oil, they won't help the world too much. From Wikipedia (kerogen is the "oil" in the oilshale):- "Therefore, worldwide there are approximately 620 billion barrels of known recoverable kerogen. This compares with known worldwide petroleum reserves of 1200 billion barrels (Source: BP Statistical Review of World Energy, 2006)." Off Topic follows Standing Bear wrote:- <> Have we fallen into a vortex and gone back to the 1950's? Is Standing Bear's real name McCarthy? Seriously, S.B., I've been in the environmental movement since the late sixties. Guessing about what you mean, I can say I have never experienced, nor ever heard of anybody else experiencing, nor seen any evidence whatsoever of this cold war paranoiac "sleeper agent" and espionage centred view of the world actually having much, if any, basis in reality in the environmental arena. Most of the real hardcore supporters that I ever saw were little old ladies and gentlemen concerned about the world their grandchildren would inherit (they leave us money in their wills) and that proportion of youth who are not yet corrupted by money and power and excess possessions. It's true that environmentalism attracts people of a liberal social justice type (pinks to reds) but it equally attracts highly conservative "blues" - the balance is actually pretty even. This is because the basic ideas are just good common sense. Both political ends of the spectrum have some good things going for them, it's just that the presence of the other is disruptive. Neither would be pleasant if allowed free rein without the other to counter balance it. The blue end would be nature "red in tooth and claw" with "devil take the hindmost" as the motto with success only available to a few, and misery to the rest - the red end would be total bureaucratic control of the human spirit and lack of freedom. Neither is sustainable in the long run because both would ruin the environmental life support systems that life relies on. I know this looks like a superficially trivial point, but a nice mix of red, green and blue creates balanced white light! Environmentalists have been warning about climate change at least since the 70's and yet it is only in the last few months that the dam of obstructionism and environmental policy sabotage has been breached and sense is now starting to appear in the international arena. Earth could have had three decades less of global warming gases injected into the atmosphere if the world had listened to us and not the siren voices who used all their huge wealth and intellectual brilliance and rhetoric to blind people (useful fools) to the simple truth. The truth is S.B., it is people like you, accusing us of ulterior motives, who actually demonstrate that it is they who are the real threat to truth and sense. By projecting onto us what your "side" evidently sees as acceptable (i.e. pay offs and tied sponsorship and black propaganda) you therefore rant and scream and hold us up as an enemy without realising who the real enemies are. It is you who are the "sincere wacko" and the "useful fool". Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 07:33:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAQFXMsC007952; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:33:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAQFXJ8e007883; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:33:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:33:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=lsMVmzvNQipEbR0Cj/qSn63xlo1lSuhFNOwPwVVL3u4JFbkAtJh+M27a827Mp3MI; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611026153254172 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 08:32:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94072f39026e558dffc5c794685dd179f72350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well put, Nick. My late wife of nearly 53 years and I watched as hundreds of thousands of acres of arable land in the Rio Grande valley in addition to our modest 4 1/4 acres (that I farmed evenings and weekends while working at making better atomic bombs and getting into space) paved over or used for housing and shopping malls, while millions of acres of land where a hundred acres will only support a few cattle, birds, jack rabbits, and rattlesnakes went untouched except for the most part as a dumping ground. The irrigation water demand is about half that of municipal-industrial. There went another Carbon Neutral CO2 sink. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Nick Palmer > To: Vortex-L > Date: 11/26/2006 6:46:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel > > Snipped for brevity. > The truth is S.B., it is people like you, > accusing us of ulterior motives, who actually demonstrate that it is they > who are the real threat to truth and sense. By projecting onto us what your > "side" evidently sees as acceptable (i.e. pay offs and tied sponsorship and > black propaganda) you therefore rant and scream and hold us up as an enemy > without realising who the real enemies are. It is you who are the "sincere > wacko" and the "useful fool". > > Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 19:20:36 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR3K4lO030764; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR3I45E027953; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:17:48 EST Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164597468" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5032 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164597468 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Keith, I made a mistake in calling the classical radius of the proton and the maximum radius of the proton by the same number. One is actually twice the other. My work required the radius of the proton 1.4 fermi meters. Do you have any ideas of why this is? Frank Znidarsic -------------------------------1164597468 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Keith,  I made a mistake in calling the classical radius= of=20 the proton and the maximum radius of the proton by the same number.  On= e is=20 actually twice the other.
My work required the radius of the proton  1.4 fermi meters.
 
Do you have any ideas of why this is?
 
Frank Znidarsic
 -------------------------------1164597468-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 19:59:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR3xIdU001939; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:59:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR3xF5t001909; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:59:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: iP4G.s8VM1lrIljYLckuccVZfKBixwx3KoJluWIzkQSlyBNv0VKRxFbpGXDVkXnBkCO5l8CTu0xiESe9bIBHSgwnQ4JQ4UkQUJrK6Tmh1cKf9YEoAZCUHw-- Message-ID: <456A628C.7070703 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:59:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Interesting News About Steorn References: <217562.83987.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <456672D8.9090406@pobox.com> <538fa8f10611232343r4d3d37e9o10f29c20eb10323b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10611232343r4d3d37e9o10f29c20eb10323b mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Esa Ruoho wrote: > they can't say why its overunity - who would believe them?, thats why > they went public and are picking out a row of skeptical scientists to > prove once and for all if its overunity or not. > besides, you'd do so much better to just consult > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Steorn_Free_Energy for this > kind of stuff. I actually got most of my info about what they do from the company website, www.steorn.net. That's where I got the information that (a) it's perpetual motion of the first kind (b) they haven't closed the loop (c) they have a COP>1 (ho hum) (d) they don't know why (e) rather than building closed-loop units they're trying to convince selected scientists that it works.... I was not aware of peswiki, which is one reason I didn't look there. > i mean, honestly. wikipedia. WIKIPEDIA and science-challenging new > information that is bound to generate hot debate? are you serious? The interesting thing about the Wiki article was the financial information, which you will certainly NOT find on the company's website! I don't know if you'll find it in peswiki. For that matter, I don't know where the author of the wikipedia article got the info, and I wasn't motivated to try to confirm or deny it with extensive additional "research". Like any information source you need to exercise some judgement in using Wikipedia, of course. > > On 11/24/06, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > Wiki has a fascinating page on Steorn (please don't hate me for > this, Jed): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn > Their _specific_ claim is that they have a process which has a COP > greater than 100% and they don't know why. > I won't hold my breath waiting for these people to save the world with > their technology. > > > > > -- > ++++ > http://www.lackluster.org/ > http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 20:14:18 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR4E4IL017779; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:14:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR4E33G017759; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:14:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: uF6OldMVM1leErEDfEVq9VFMjigIJSdDnekBqPLVDRI88xifCHikOdSxxVe30dFanwgZuMeAwLFZz.b6nCRtVOa.wNiSPCiX7cqBma4AnhHpRTKti22oxQ-- Message-ID: <456A6600.8020103 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 23:13:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > Here's what I've been able to glean from their site. > > It is self-powered. There is no input. No it's not. It has a COP>100% which means it produces more power than it consumes, but to have a meaningful COP it _MUST_ consume power! Without input COP=infinity. Second, they have some obscure comments to the effect that the devices can't be cascaded. That also suggests very strongly that there's power going in, and power going out (and sounds very fishy IMHO). Finally, the description makes it reasonably clear that it's a magnet-based torque amplifier of some sort. (Can't cite a page on that; sorry, I don't recall where I saw the actual description.) > They won't do demos because, they say, they'll be > put down as conmen unless a jury of reputable > scientists confirms the OU. OU is _NOT_ an issue IF the machine is self-powered!! If you've got output and _no_ input, then it's OU by construction. But again, their machine is not self-powered. > > They'll announce their first products the day the jury > announces its verdict. > > They have said they continue to file applications for > patents on different implementations of the basic > configuration. If they had a working model which had no input power, they could patent the whole thing. Perpetual motion machines are patentable in the United States if you have a working model, but not otherwise. But, they don't have a working model (in that sense) -- it requires external power to operate. So, they can't patent the closed-loop version. > > The basic configuration is simple. > > My guess is that if somebody versed in the art were to > have even a cursory look at the device, he could go > home and build his own. That's just a guess, but it > would explain their reluctance to demo it. To put it > another way, whatever good their demo did for them > would be outweighed by everybody and his brother > copying the device and beating them to the market. > > They're not struggling or dying for public > recognition. The CEO says they used the economist ad > and the early interviews to get scientists to take up > their challenge. Now that that has been accomplished, > they don't need publicity. > >>From what I can see, they are doing nothing to seek > publicity; there is almost zero media mention of them > these days. > > They claim to have a 550bhp motor, and have tested the > effect for three years. A measurement error seems very > unlikely. This makes no sense, really. If they had something that really poured out far more power than it consumed, how much "testing" would they need to do to verify that it worked? Certainly if they had closed the loop they'd be _done_ with the "testing" phase, because that's a 100% go/no-go test: if you can pass that test, you're done, you've broken the First Law. Instead, they're looking for expert testimony that it works, which suggests (to me) the goal is to suck in more investment dollars. > > The CEO says no device has stopped running unless a > mechanical part wore out or they shut it down. > > They are fully funded and do not need investors to > bring the device(s) to market. The CEO has said they > will not accept investment money. > > Steorn have not 'come out of nowhere', at least in the > sense of being a bona fide company, with a track > record of accomplishment. In completely unrelated areas, I think? > That goes, too, for the CEO, who has been an engineer > since 1989. They have about 20 full-time employees and > several consultants. Their engineers all have > university degress, some of them advanced degrees > > An independent observer has visited their offices, > which she describes as extensive and well-guarded, > seen documentation on a couple of the jurors, and > confirmed that they are reputable scientists. And completely unnecessary, if they actually had a working model that did something useful. How many scientists does it take to determine that something's producing power without consuming any? None, really -- all it takes is a building inspector to make sure all the power lines into the building have been properly severed. > She has seen a video of the CEO of a European > manufacturing partner of Steorn's as he assembled a > test device and started it running. He said, in the > video, that he left it running over a weekend and when > he returned it was still running. > > She looked him up on the internet, and found a picture > of him on his company's website. It was the same man > she saw in the video. > > You say: > [**magnetic overunity [or magnets with coils, > pendulums, or some combination of mechanical recycling > of torque with a magnetic boost] will probably be > demonstrated by someone next year - 2007 ! as there > are many groups who are on the verge now. MPI would be > expected to have something next year and/or Sprain in > Atlanta...**] > > > You think MPI is 'on the verge', but they've been 'on > the verge' for years, and have continually asked for > more money, and have demonstrated nothing. > > Sprain has demonstrated nothing that is OU, but > promises to do so soon. > > I don't see how you can speak respectfully of those > outfits while deprecating Steorn's claims. You > complain that Steorn has demonstrated nothing, but > neither has MPI or Sprain. It's almost as if you > require 10 times the proof from Steorn that you do > from anyone else. > > You also say: > [**Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" stretched > out -- as the less-sophisticated scammers like to do > early-on.**] > > It sounds like you are flat-out calling them scammers. > Amazing > > > > > Jones Beene wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- From: Esa Ruoho >> >>> they can't say why its overunity - who would > believe them? that's >>> why they went public and are picking out a row of > skeptical scientists >>> to prove once and for all if its overunity or not. >> Forget all that. Can you answer the single critical > issue of self-power >> (or lack thereof) ? >> >> If a self-powered unit exists now - where is it? - > regardless of any >> explanations/ skepticism - a self-powered unit is > all the evidence which >> in needed by anyone, skeptic or not. >> >> Why not just call the BBC in to film it running > under self-power, while >> those supposedly skeptical scientists are debating > the underlying >> modality, which is probably related to ZPE/Casimir > in some fashion? Is >> that too much to ask from a company which is > seemingly struggling and >> dying for public recognition - and paying dearly for > much of it instead >> of putting those resources into development ? >> >> Let me say at the outset - that magnetic overunity > [or magnets with >> coils, pendulums, or some combination of mechanical > recycling of torque >> with a magnetic boost] will probably be demonstrated > by someone next >> year - 2007 ! as there are many groups who are on > the verge now. MPI >> would be expected to have something next year and/or > Sprain in Atlanta, >> and five or six lesser and "fringier" efforts which > include Perendev, >> Minato, Torbay and Steorn etc. I would put Steorn > firmly at the tail end >> of this list, due solely to the way they have > handled the announcement - >> but a single self-running demo will immediately > change that. Not that it >> matters. Proof - not PR - is all that matters. > Self-running = Proof. >> If Steorn were not so PR-oriented - and highly > desirous of every >> kind-word of public recognition - why else did they > announce this in >> such an expensive way, characteristic of a PR blitz > (or the "Czech >> Dream") ? shouldn't a company which apparently has > not paid their >> corporate licensing fees have saved the 100,000 > pounds for the expensive >> advertising and just called up Oxford/Cambridge for > a private showing? >> It just does not make sense - the way they have > handled it, unless they >> have been hired to do it as a stunt of some kind. > Maybe Branson or some >> other drama-queen is hiding in there somewhere. >> >> Apparently (or if) it is not a self-runner, then > that narrows the issue >> considerably, as **measurement error** is very > common in this type of >> device. Almost anyone here, especially the > "consultants" - if that was >> said in a derogatory fashion - could have explained > this issue of likely >> measurement-error to Steorn - and in great detail. > That is, had Steorn >> not "come out of nowhere" --- which is yet another > problem for their >> credulity. There is a community of creative but > careful scientific >> people involved heavily in this field, and no one at > Steorn was not part >> of it - prior to recently. >> >> And look at the wasted time. Steorn has wasted > infinitely more precious >> time with mundane PR details, endless press > questioning and facility >> tours, etc then a single BBC filming would have > accomplished on day-one >> ---IF--- Steorn has a device which will self-run. > If not - the most of >> us will agree that it is likely measurement error. >> >> Skeptics who want to go on record with the "told you > so" thing should be >> focusing solely on that issue: is it self-running or > not. If it is not, >> then Steorn has a monstrous problem on their hands > and will probably >> look like fools in the end. >> >> Plus - did not someone at Steorn actually claim that > they had a device >> self-running for an extended period, but that they > could not show it for >> some strange reason --- like it had been > disassembled to make an even >> better model ! >> >> Ha! Sounds very much like the English crank > scientist who claimed to >> have invented an anti-gravity device but he cold not > show it to the >> skeptics because his wife had inadvertently turned > it on - and it >> blasted through the roof of his home and escaped > into space ! He could >> show the hole, however. >> >> Suspension of disbelief has its limits. >> >> Jones >> >> (not a Steorn skeptic yet -- just stating the > obvious inconsistencies >> with their story, and the sad way in which they have > handled what could >> be a monumental discovery, if it could be believed) >> >> Let me repeat - This is NOT the way science - even > fringe-science is >> handled, and that is why all the suspicion is > warranted - even though >> Steorn does not yet have the "tin cup" stretched out > -- as the >> less-sophisticated scammers like to do early-on. >> > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sponsored Link > > Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr > MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Assoc > http://yahoo.degrees.info > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 20:32:52 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR4Wa1W028893; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:32:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR4WWFR028854; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:32:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:32:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: DFG.7TgVM1m5up_S7u6rVk.o7Gjy0edkgBznrApgInAcM438C186Qou.0HrkL.FcLscZhLyI5.BRiO90KP3DLm95caNTPeYCdreDWV6g65ORKAYb3E7x7Q-- Message-ID: <456A6A5C.1030401 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 23:32:28 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum Between Concentric Spheres-Cylinders References: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200611423142519113 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Polarized Vacuum (PV) in charged concentric spherical/cylindrical > capacitors? > > Does a charged section of coaxial cable change weight? > > Would a laser beam traversing the high field region between > highly charged spheres-cylinders-plates show a lower light speed? Well, it's _supposed_ to, but I don't think you could detect the difference. The field has energy, which means it should gravitate, which means the gravitational potential between the plates is (slightly!) lower than the gravitational potential outside the plates, which should result in a marginally slower rate of time passage, which means, from the point of view of an outside observer, C should be slightly lower between the plates. Sorry, I'm feeling flaky tonight -- gotta shut off the computer before I post anything more random... > > c = 1/[(eo*uo)^1/2] > > Fred > > http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf > > Spherical Capacitor: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html > > Cylindrical Capacitor: > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html > > Single Plate Capacitor Anomaly: > > Plate #1 had an area five times that of plate "2 and seventeen > times that of plate #3. With a Positive voltage applied it was pulled > downward with a force of 2.08E-2 Nt the same as the upward force on > single plate #3 with the same (+) polarity. With (-) polarity it > had nearly twice the upward force of plate #3(3.90E-2/1.46E-2 Nt). > > http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/3.html > > "If the transmission line is coaxial in construction, the characteristic > impedance follows a different equation:" > > "In both equations, identical units of measurement must be used in both > terms of the fraction. If the insulating material is other than air (or > a vacuum), both the characteristic impedance and the propagation > velocity will be affected. The ratio of a transmission line's true > propagation velocity and the speed of light in a vacuum is called the > /velocity facto/of that line." > > "Velocity factor is purely a factor of the insulating material's > relative permittivity (otherwise known as its /dielectric constant/), > defined as the ratio of a material's electric field permittivity to that > of a pure vacuum. The velocity factor of any cable type -- coaxial or > otherwise -- may be calculated quite simply by the following formula: " > > Velocity Factor = v/c = 1/(k)^1/2 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 22:25:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR6PDsm005208; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:25:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR6PAs9005183; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:25:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:25:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 01:25:20 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel In-reply-to: <001001c7115c$d99f07d0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611270125.20975.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <200611260056.33099.rockcastle lakeside1.net> <001001c7115c$d99f07d0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 26 November 2006 08:14, Nick Palmer wrote: > Kyle, I've got no problem with fuel from oil shale as long as extraction > and use > 1) does not cause undue damage to the natural species ecologies of the > areas 2) does not damage areas of great natural beauty > 3 does not delay the introduction of non carbon based energy sources > 4) does not delay the point at which the escalating price of oil will > render even the currently marginal renewable technologies economical to > use. > > If US oil shale stocks caused the US to stop messing with other people's > (oil rich) countries as much that would be great, however as a "get out of > jail free" card to escape the coming decline of economically and > environmentally extractable oil, they won't help the world too much. From > Wikipedia (kerogen is the "oil" in the oilshale):- "Therefore, worldwide > there are approximately 620 billion barrels of known recoverable kerogen. > This compares with known worldwide petroleum reserves of 1200 billion > barrels (Source: BP Statistical Review of World Energy, 2006)." > > Off Topic follows > > Standing Bear wrote:- > > < for being obstructionists and economic saboteurs. For instance if one > wanted > to destabilize or harm a nation for any reason, this kind of activity would > be > one of the most efficient means possible to cause maximum misery to the > target population. Those who went along with them for any reason would be > the usefull fools that inhabit most any bandwagon. Also, luddites probably > will be also found in the pay of major energy producer industries not > benefited by this process>> > > Have we fallen into a vortex and gone back to the 1950's? Is Standing > Bear's real name McCarthy? Seriously, S.B., I've been in the environmental > movement since the late sixties. Guessing about what you mean, I can say I > have never experienced, nor ever heard of anybody else experiencing, nor > seen any evidence whatsoever of this cold war paranoiac "sleeper agent" and > espionage centred view of the world actually having much, if any, basis in > reality in the environmental arena. Most of the real hardcore supporters > that I ever saw were little old ladies and gentlemen concerned about the > world their grandchildren would inherit (they leave us money in their > wills) and that proportion of youth who are not yet corrupted by money and > power and excess possessions. It's true that environmentalism attracts > people of a liberal social justice type (pinks to reds) but it equally > attracts highly conservative "blues" - the balance is actually pretty even. > This is because the basic ideas are just good common sense. Both political > ends of the spectrum have some good things going for them, it's just that > the presence of the other is disruptive. Neither would be pleasant if > allowed free rein without the other to counter balance it. The blue end > would be nature "red in tooth and claw" with "devil take the hindmost" as > the motto with success only available to a few, and misery to the rest - > the red end would be total bureaucratic control of the human spirit and > lack of freedom. Neither is sustainable in the long run because both would > ruin the environmental life support systems that life relies on. I know > this looks like a superficially trivial point, but a nice mix of red, green > and blue creates balanced white light! > > Environmentalists have been warning about climate change at least > since the 70's and yet it is only in the last few months that the dam of > obstructionism and environmental policy sabotage has been breached and > sense is now starting to appear in the international arena. Earth could > have had three decades less of global warming gases injected into the > atmosphere if the world had listened to us and not the siren voices who > used all their huge wealth and intellectual brilliance and rhetoric to > blind people (useful fools) to the simple truth. The truth is S.B., it is > people like you, accusing us of ulterior motives, who actually demonstrate > that it is they who are the real threat to truth and sense. By projecting > onto us what your "side" evidently sees as acceptable (i.e. pay offs and > tied sponsorship and black propaganda) you therefore rant and scream and > hold us up as an enemy without realising who the real enemies are. It is > you who are the "sincere wacko" and the "useful fool". > > Nick Palmer All that text....musta hit a nerve! Never seen anything but colors of reds and blues. Somebody reads too many editorials. The real world contains more than little old ladies in tennis shoes. Know nothing of Nick's experiences, but have personally seen Iranian and other middle eastern and/or yet other nationalities not American 'agents' for lack of a better term working politically motivated pressure groups of all kinds on California campuses in the seventies when anything went and usually did. One could spot them from far away. Usually they wore European style pants with narrow belts when most Americans wore bell bottoms with wide belts; usually sported a certain type of tinted sunglasses with a variable tint that were expensive and most of the rest of us did not wear. These same blokes would show up not only at environmental meetings, but also at antiwar meetings. Such took place all over campuses at random times and really were an unavoidable part of the campus landscape on California State University grounds during this period. These above mentioned folks would not 'lead' the meetings, but would never be far from the leaders. They were also part of 'Anti-Shah' demonstrations that, oddly enough, were also plentiful at my school despite being thousands of miles from the action. I might also add that these folks never seemed to want for money; were uniformly men even though the active participants in the groups they attached themselves to sometimes were majority female; and often these folks were never found in any real class even though they seemed to spend the entire day on campus. No one that I knew ever saw them in class either, and I knew many people. In addition, most of the statements that came from these groups contained the typical words and phrases that were the same across many campuses and matched the same words coming out of the leadership organs of foreign countries that opposed us at that time. Hardly any of the followers of the environmental groups that I talked to could hold an intellectual discussion about the relative merits of what his or her organization claimed to support; and in truth most appeared mesmerized by the rampant fear mongering of the time. Typical was the fear of nuclear power, raw and unreasoning. Nuclear waste was portrayed as uniformly bad, uniformly long lived, and uniformly umbiquitious. The rhetoric was, to quote the above writer, truly McCarthyan and truly alarmist with no real facts. Questioners were snapped at, brushed off or sometimes physically attacked. Went to a physicist on campus and asked about the waste notion with a constructive idea of my own. If this waste was even remotely as bad as it was painted, then it should in itself be capable of producing energy for the good of man. It was here that my eyes were opened. The good prof noted my concern but informed me that over ninety five percent of all nuke waste were items like used gloves and shirts, tools, etd. He said the average half life of the contamination on these common items was around fifteen seconds or less, and that the only reason that they were considered nuke waste at all was because the law said 'any quantity more than zero' and not 'any reasonably hazardous quantity'. He said that my secondary recovery idea, though admirable, would not be practical. From that day to this that through my engineering career, I have had to see what is real. Our need for energy independance is real. Our de-industrialization due to our failed free trade policies and our lack of purpose in energy production is manifest in lost jobs. What jobs are left are being snapped up by an invading army of illegal aliens that our goverment now seems to want to accept as citizens. In my own town, a road project that was sold to the voters as an improvement to the community and a source of jobs to local contractors, is being instead build by illegal foreigners and by elderly social security pensioners who will work for substandard pay. The community is recieving value recieved for value paid. The compaction of the roadway is suspect, the curbing has more waves than a windy lake, and the paving has repeatedly failed strength tests. Yet all of this is accepted by a crooked administration that has had its friends personally profit from this enterprise. And this is only a small town. We can listen to the misguided among us, or we can wake up. We need energy. The process in Israel can help us, if so we need to license it and use it. The internal combustion engine is producing smog. Worse the fresh air Otto cycly that it uses is only twenty percent efficient. Or less. To use Nuclear power to generate hydrogen for fuel cell electric cars would be a far better and less polluting solution.. We raise the temperature of this planet a few more degrees and the methane clathrate cascade will damage our race severely. It is already probably happening. Some divers in the arctic were recently mysteriousely sucked under the ice and the handlers were unable to pull them up. "It was like they free fall dropped for five hundred feet!". This would be so if they were dropped into what was a reduced density foam of methane and water. Nothing was said about this or about the presence of a smell that methane certainly would have. An interim solution would be the oil shale one. Crack the product of the shale to lightweight aliphatic hydrocarbons to use, again in electric cars powered by fuel cells...again a large gain in efficiency. This act alone will save up to eighty percent of gasoline consumption in that fraction of our vehicle use that is personal or job related. By the way. The loose slinging about of 'McCarthyism was a typical response to any opposition to certain groups. Most of the members of those groups did not know who that charlatan was or what he represented. They only knew the term was an epithet like the other less socially acceptable ones they used every day. If that is the way of the future and our present, then it will have to be faced. It will be the jobless and the dispossessed who will do the facing of these mindless elitists in the age of the new bolshevistic upheavals to come. At sixty one, my age of 'activism' is probably long past. Read a little further back in your histories sports fans. The dispossessed and the sold out can be a potent political force. Once organized. And the organization can proceed shockingly fast. And they will not be polite. The time is not 1954 all over again! It is 1917! Standing Bear And that is a shame what happened to arable land in the deserts near El Paso. I was stationed there as an airman and know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 26 22:50:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAR6o3dg025178; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:50:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAR6dAcW018021; Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:39:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:39:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:39:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: x-rays from TC capacitors?!!! Status: O X-Status: I stumbled across an odd idea. If a home-built stacked-plate capacitor is operated with high-volt pulses, then the thin air-film trapped between the foils and the dielectric sheets will glow violet. (I verified this idea using a quickie test device made from a thin glass bowl, foil on the bottom, and salt-water on the top. Sure enough, under pulsed HV drive there's a purple glow shining from the foil surface under the glass.) Ah, but we know that plasma leads to pumping: both from ion pump effects where gas molecules embed into metal surfaces, and also from N2 turning into metal nitrides, and O2 turning into metal oxides. (Plasma does chemistry.) So I seal up the edges of the foil on the glass/saltwater cap, then run it for awhile. Sure enough, the purple glow from between the foil and glass changes color after a few minutes. Becomes greyish. Maybe even greenish. I place it on the large ion chamber of a GM counter, but don't detect any rise above background count. I could keep running it for lots more minutes, but I'd burn down the contacts of my little "vacuum tester TC." So... any high-voltage pulse capacitor which is sealed but which isn't vacuum-impregnated with oil is going to have plasma-filled air films, and the internal pressure is going to drop over time. And in theory, over time these air layers might pump down to just below non-glowing vacuum threshold, and then start emitting soft x-rays! What to do? The whole problem might be a crackpot idea, eh? It's all speculation (except for my glass/saltwater test.) Suggestion: paint the outside of your home-built well-sealed Tesla coil stacked-plate capacitors with ZnS glow-in-dark paint. Run them in a darkened room separate from the bright streamers and spark gap. Or instead make an xray alarm: a solar cell as sensor, painted with fluorescent paint and embedded in black epoxy or silicone. First one to detect a dim green glow wins a prize: slightly irradiated gonads! :) If the effect ever proves real, then does it mean we can replace the vacuum tube in the dentist office with a bunch of aluminum foil layers with spontaneously-appearing vacuum inside? (And would a cylindrically wrapped capacitor act as a line-source of x-rays?) More pure speculation: if capacitors ever do emit x-rays, then it's one more source of x-rays that Nikola with his fluorescent screens and glass photographers plates might have stumbled upon. Yes, he probably did find x-rays when operating his carbon button lamps. But what if he hadn't? Imagine how confusing it might have been if he'd tracked down the capacitor as the source of a new kind of radiation, only to later hear from Roentgen that vacuum tubes also produce it. ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty Research Engineer beaty chem.washington.edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 billb eskimo.com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph425-222-5066 http//staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 08:12:40 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARG20Pj004056; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:12:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARELnN9032010; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:21:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:21:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=nwwY98L7KbaosjacXmQr6dxJIXs7ws4cDNZkWkjr8KzC30a6qK1V3y0EAs/Z86Xl2as4OUZtE5elUHSKlxdIfQUmDGSDjaN2fTTPblY9S8r4BaCFR5wqftv65wZR3dYgZprrZYGhrS1gI88xalznuJCl9ydpt5kdkKgG2Nk9n7M=; X-YMail-OSG: Ii4rn0sVM1k66QSv0YI5ZNj7QDMYW8tMN7KcuVVcMD1TMnqs7mFYcjcS.7pvu9_VWx3yuinSWDHlbLOvYQCVY1KBdtXxHeNek8LN.yM7DfpW79G_Qus7n2cDB68FRdhPoGVuPkffF6.JYq8- Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:21:39 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <456A6600.8020103 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <611764.30356.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Rhong Dhong wrote: >> Here's what I've been able to glean from their site. >> >> It is self-powered. There is no input. > > No it's not. Right. The ceo has said he does not know the source of the energy. It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. Whatever it is, it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a 550bhp motor. > > This makes no sense, really. If they had something that really poured > out far more power than it consumed, how much "testing" would they need > to do to verify that it worked? The testing was done early on to eliminate the possibility of a measurement error. As I understand it, the testing since then has been to make it more efficient. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 09:57:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARH92FZ016014; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:09:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARH8xZL015962; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:08:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:08:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=5mRfUMGSmXwuTsaBfpqE0+Vbk5Ai1dGWr4Flwyw9d7u6cYhqjQfFlfen98gaJgOy9LBvJcJ/mFluCSexdXOr6zyPC83ammaSJhximnrEfuxa3YmyYeRrb0i33tjgX1cKWUJ2v5rzd4rdH5icXg8lrZkIe+H9ftLpCbUwlxHV/kk= ; X-YMail-OSG: 7hl66f0VM1lfVleyKhgA11q0Nxy78BBwD0mAoJUxofzULkCj46n_AUZcJRNlIc_Ex2481tMz55p9QjD0fc6rF2.q8YfKCakZ44f4E9rI0WktWRBCpDSwzg-- Message-ID: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:08:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth Status: O X-Status: One of the more fascinating themes of fiction involves "hidden wealth" and the duplicity which is involved in controlling it. Of course, "buried treasure" and pirated booty is the prototype for this alluring theme - but even several of Blackbeard's chests of Spanish doubloons is little more than 'chump change' these days, compared to the immense value of the new wealth - an oil field, for instance. Today, regarding: the "hidden" part, now everybody knows about oil - but the future will hold the same surprises for the perceptive vision-quester (or greedy bastard). Black gold - oil - will be supplanted by new forms of wealth in the one thing which humans will always treasure above all else - energy. A fine novel that explores this transition [from oil to new energy] theme is Tony Hillerman's novel [back in the old days when he could still write well] called: "People of Darkness". As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of wealth], take the national helium repository for instance - close by a certain ranch in Crawford TX. This one is not yet fictionalized. It was recently, very quietly, shuttled into private hands from DoE, in what is clearly political manipulation. There could be a trillion dollars worth of 3He "hidden" in there - but no one is talking. And few except at the highest levels would know for sure if a breakthrough in 3He fusion has taken place in a so-called "black" project. Still black-gold, eh? And then there is the Great Salt Lake, in Utah. This area in recent US history was formerly set amidst land so worthless that even when it was given free to any taker -only a shunned religious cult, top-heavy with more wives than husbands, would settle there. Nowadays, it is just possible that the salty water of this particular lake could be extremely valuable - in the trillion dollar range. If so, it will no doubt be labeled as a divine blessing to the later-day descendants, like when the gulls came. Hey they had to have some pay-back for giving up all those wives ;-) Why so potentially valuable? In short... well, the answer is indeed short: 18O. It is that strange isotope of hydrogen - 18O. Almost one percent of the unpalatable water in the Great Salt Lake water consists of this heavy so-called "isotope" 18O. The fact that there is such an abundance seems impossible, since 16O is one of the most stable of all nuclei. It has been speculated, on this forum before, that some of what is responsible for this seeming anomaly in abundance is not due to a primordial isotopic branching - but instead derives continuously from the stable 16O in nature, which migrates in vapor and then in the ionosphere becomes ozone, and then may capture and serve as a host for the ubiquitous "solar hydrino-hydride." If there is any of it on earth, this is one of the few possible mechanisms which can bring it down [if that is, the bulk of it arrives charged, in the Hy- form instead of Hy or Hy2]. This process would be predicated on a continuous flux of Hy- intercepting earth, being shed from the solar corona, and then on contact with ozone - displacing the k-shell electrons of high altitude ozone, but only in a balanced pairing, which neutralizes the charge, and giving the "appearance" of 18O - when in fact the species is 16O with two captured hydrino-hydrides in what was [formerly] the k-shell, and is now a much different beast. Why is this particular species potentially important for "new energy"? Well ... here is a hint for those with an electrolytic cell: run a LENR experiment using light water and nickel electrode BUT use water enriched in 18O ;-) That is the teaser. Perhaps the full answer will appear in a future installment of this "hidden wealth" mystery. Perhaps it is more later-day "gulling." And in the mean time, in homage to the well-crafted mystery, consider the John Grisham thriller [back in the old days when he could still write well] called: "The Gingerbread Man". Good film version too. A poor and unstable hobo father, Robert Duvall, soon to be deceased, owns a few acres of salt-marsh worth practically nothing. The trampy daughter is a little whacked herself and starts sleeping with a slick Savannah defense lawyer (Kenneth Branagh). Can you spell "fame-up"? Then there is the subject of the "worthless" inheritance ... which ostensibly would not have inspired murder, would it? Hmm, it seems that daddy's marsh happens to contain an old walnut grove, which was planted by former slaves for sustenance during the years of king cotton - later abandoned. Modern consumers are too lazy to crack walnuts, and it takes slave labor to pick them. For those who do not yet realize yet the identity of the wealth - black walnut is now an especially valuable hardwood - even if nobody eats the nuts any more - and sold by the pound for high price furniture. Every large tree is said worth $10,000 and an acre is worth about $20 million - but it takes some digging to realize this... old-Grisham style. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 10:29:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARILMd1008755; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:29:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARI6Ixq017225; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:06:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:06:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=5XTQfpfco6bXLnrJie20OI+9HOxtAn6KluLA9iEXBZE8UnuVYnygZUAkXeIyQVCz88d4KMdEOtPmyN0OJ3IWR92G9/v61Kt/9Ex2jxUSa9t6pL5m+GcbrKjIX6e7Kd0GA0qLPnm8Vca9Fqg1J1y2881NZDgazvo/2vQPgCo2JIQ= ; Message-ID: <20061127180612.44164.qmail web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [Vo]: 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20061121191949.70894.qmail web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's another experiment that is extremely straightforward and simple. We know that thermo noise has no theoretical upper crest limit. Normally we refer to noise in terms of root mean square. When studying real thermo noise we see that given enough time the noise will eventually drift to a higher crest. The experiment is simple. Connect one resistor in series with an LED. That is it. To save yourself a lot of time you should pick a high frequency LED as used in GHz optics. This will provide a lot of bandwidth, which is what you want given voltage thermo noise is (4 K T R B)^0.5, where B = Bandwidth. Also you want to pick a resistor that matches the LED for an optimum effect. Also it doesn't hurt if the resistor is a noisy one such as carbon composite and as small as possible. Smaller carbon composite resistors generate more noise. Of course the *extra* noise is 1/f. This results in a resistor with real noise. When then voltage noise crest overcomes the LED's forward voltage then the LED will emit photon(s). Also note the LED emits photons far below the forward voltage. So in that sense, it is possible the LED will emit an occasional photon even when the noise voltage is far below the LED's forward voltage. Now the question is, "Where do we aim the photons?" Note the above experiment is in an isolated system. We have two experiments. Experiment #1, the resistor absorbs the photons. Experiment #2, the LED absorbs its own photons (we coat the LED with opaque material). The main difference between the two experiments is the resistor in experiment #2 is colder than the resistor in experiment #1. Note, the above experiments could require vast amounts of time, depending on the exact parts used in such experiments. Given enough time, the noise crest will reach the LED's forward voltage. For those who are less patient, it is possible you will see some photons emitted even below the LED's forward voltage. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Online degrees - find the right program to advance your career. Www.nextag.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 10:57:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARILMd3008755; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:29:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARHV3nu006964; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:31:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:31:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:21:28 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-reply-to: <456A6600.8020103 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle lakeside1.net Message-id: <200611271221.28973.rockcastle lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <829776.21111.qm web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <456A6600.8020103 pobox.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 26 November 2006 23:13, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Rhong Dhong wrote: > > Here's what I've been able to glean from their site. > > > > It is self-powered. There is no input. > > No it's not. > > It has a COP>100% which means it produces more power than it consumes, > but to have a meaningful COP it _MUST_ consume power! Without input > COP=infinity. > > Second, they have some obscure comments to the effect that the devices > can't be cascaded. That also suggests very strongly that there's power > going in, and power going out (and sounds very fishy IMHO). > > Finally, the description makes it reasonably clear that it's a > magnet-based torque amplifier of some sort. (Can't cite a page on that; > sorry, I don't recall where I saw the actual description.) > > > They won't do demos because, they say, they'll be > > put down as conmen unless a jury of reputable > > scientists confirms the OU. > > OU is _NOT_ an issue IF the machine is self-powered!! If you've got > output and _no_ input, then it's OU by construction. > > But again, their machine is not self-powered. > > > They'll announce their first products the day the jury > > announces its verdict. > > > > They have said they continue to file applications for > > patents on different implementations of the basic > > configuration. > > If they had a working model which had no input power, they could patent > the whole thing. > > Perpetual motion machines are patentable in the United States if you > have a working model, but not otherwise. But, they don't have a working > model (in that sense) -- it requires external power to operate. So, > they can't patent the closed-loop version. Some would be willing to bet that the country that had the excellent judgement to grant Wal-Mart a patent on a lazy susan in the face of probable testimony from MBA types that had to have soaked their faces in wet cement and allowed setting to take place in order to keep straight faces before testifying that there was 'only anecdotal evidence of possible prior art', would be capable of granting any IP creation request to anyone with a sufficient amount of money and a 'friendly' examiner. Yet serious scientists going forward with: cold fusion devices; black light rockets; or photonic thrusters that actually have a chance of lifting themselves and their power units.....will get a cold shoulder. If we as a nation succeed in stopping progress here, that does not mean that the whole world will go along. There is a focus fusion device out there that is going to see a test in South America soon. See it at: http://www.focusfusion.org They recently succeeded in raising the temperature of their electrostatic confinement D-Bo fusion device to nearly 3 billion degrees K. They are now building a larger proof of concept reactor. This, if successful would be a nuclear fusion generator most everybody would love except: a terrorist (no radioactive substances to steal or use); an oil company (oil now only useful as lubricants or in plastics in near future...no more gravytrain); a middle eastern country (no more money from an accident of geography to finance destructive wars and ostentatious lifestyles). Deuterium-Boron fusion requires a very high temperature, but there are no reaction products that can be used to hurt anybody in any significant way. The difficulty is attaining the reaction temperature and feeding the reaction, and this appears to possibly be reachable. These folks envision a reactor the size of a two car garage being able to produce many megawatts of power. If true, we could go back to what we were in the late 1800's when very many small towns had their own power plants and gas generators. Standing Bear The world needs and feeds on hope, not fear! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 11:49:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARJWNqb013251; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:32:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARJWGuq013161; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:32:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:32:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Xmu3o5QVM1lQtSl28Kthhks2GjI_lYEJsA.94xbjL8lnT.wa77JsbZGg7_85yV_0kCZjRFR.ed0PVBKF4s0o9.qPuQskGk3AGw1tMN4C5NCDtMRMAuqHzQ-- Message-ID: <456B3D3A.5080304 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:32:10 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <611764.30356.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <611764.30356.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >> Rhong Dhong wrote: >>> Here's what I've been able to glean from their > site. >>> It is self-powered. There is no input. >> No it's not. > > Right. The ceo has said he does not know the source of > the energy. > > It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something > like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. Whatever it is, > it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a > 550bhp motor. They said it was a "550 hp unit". They didn't explain what that meant. Presumably it means either 550 HP _in_ or 550 HP _out_. It tells us nothing about the difference between power in and power out, however. There seems to be far less information on their website than one might think at first glance. > > >> This makes no sense, really. If they had something > that really > poured >> out far more power than it consumed, how much > "testing" would > they need >> to do to verify that it worked? > > The testing was done early on to eliminate the > possibility of a measurement error. As I understand > it, the testing since then has been to make it more > efficient. Nothing in, something out => efficiency = infinity. Their jury of 12 scientists has not yet produced any public report, AFAIK, and they're supposed to be verifying that it works, not just tweaking it. So I'm not so sure the "initial testing" phase is really over. The whole thing seems to come down to this: If there's more usable power coming out than going in, you _CAN_ close the loop. (COP>1 does not imply the _usable_ power balance is positive, please note -- a heat pump typically has COP>1 and is anything but a perpetual motion machine.) If you close the loop, then you have PPM#1 and you're done. If you CANNOT close the loop, then you need to depend on expert witnesses and indirect data to show that you really have something. They apparently cannot close the loop, so they must resort to expert testimony to convince people that they've really got something. I am strongly reminded of the self-powered electric car which was ballyhooed around a while back -- whose was that, anyway? It used lead-acid batteries to power it (oops, not quite self-powered!) and recharged them as it ran. Couldn't close the loop; why not? Because the power really did come from the batteries, which were being whipped to bits to produce more power than is usual for batteries of that type. That's known to be possible, but not normally done; down side is that it supposedly ruins the batteries in relatively short order. This is where the lengthy cycle of testing to be sure the machine is not consuming some piece of itself comes in. If, to use the foregoing example, it uses lead-acid batteries, one needs to confirm that the machine isn't gradually chewing up the batteries while appearing to "recharge" them on the fly. There isn't enough information on their website, that I could see, to tell if they have any little "gotchas" of that sort built into the device. However, if it's really taking a jury of competent scientists a substantial amount of time to determine whether the thing actually works, it seems like a plausible guess that there might be some such issue involved. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 13:10:45 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARL09jd017062; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:10:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARKeLXU028715; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:40:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:40:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0abkDGSO5I4stfGQQ9mbHOZKqaol3hfk98VVHgLfzL0Yt5WxSjsm3qwZzvzNs/Upn3hXQ8OG1u6wOyryNYpdKvCdlcqehKG3n029OtSjWMekKLaSOPYUK5MnKrVIOVlxLyDbxZiTt4DbUhRtC5zh9kwrsmQgymACghs5txjOwL8= ; Message-ID: <20061127193156.74482.qmail web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 1st oops > It is that strange isotope of hydrogen - 18O. Almost one percent of the unpalatable water in the Great Salt Lake consists of this heavy so-called "isotope" 18O. Should be "isotope of oxygen" of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 13:34:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARKotRD008552; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:50:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARKonNo008475; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:50:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:50:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FJ1xsqdUru6bmdmcf4bFfk/+sRGxZyo1D/hkx+NhS5M7/nUuz9G+3l/ORHz3gSXOieV8xAdxtD7/ncrIyWXj3P0jRZbUZuwRKJZaDTzTl/ovYooGOaqiI/FW5c3uFjrOzjzmzKT6+iePT+F2B9U9JhZaoR7IuP6dZuVrryadfa4= ; Message-ID: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:50:42 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <456B3D3A.5080304 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: [snip] > Nothing in, something out => efficiency = infinity. The concept of infinite efficiency is somewhat interesting. Consider a black box that requires 100 watts input, and outputs 1 KW. When operating the black box could theoretically do away with the 100 W input by robbing 100 watts from its 1 KW output. So now the black box requires no input, but outputs 900 watts. :-) [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 13:38:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARL09jb017062; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:10:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARKi8bs000730; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:44:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=LBcWoXfiqsgGO7XlAN/UppuBcCRMnVDhM+blUyfnA46qhaMcT5elL1jM6goyH9nhsV9wMSQAEvod1zaZOOiugDE8JIrPOPZ7w5TQiSwSxIvQzTTEt8sZyDTUoZ5HFH03TMAGXcpyo6rnokH/ok18LeoAh2lRaRz8oAMEP1FuIUM=; X-YMail-OSG: 9m1Pj88VM1lVcIqEToC_2LDSx3b7zTIfuMsElYkkib7jYUGVOLOS_JenkVaUG7u0fbKhA.IvG1DJhRzHwvH.DaLPsDIXPp0JJ.cHvCeJGzRb93_ErozRGUPVoJ3fu7sXOrUJ3_Km26WPfoc- Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:44:00 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <456B3D3A.5080304 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2060008620-1164660240=:6781" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <75693.6781.qm web35003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2060008620-1164660240=:6781 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: Rhong Dhong wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >> Rhong Dhong wrote: >>> Here's what I've been able to glean from their > site. >>> It is self-powered. There is no input. >> No it's not. > > Right. The ceo has said he does not know the source of > the energy. > > It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something > like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. Whatever it is, > it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a > 550bhp motor. [** They said it was a "550 hp unit". They didn't explain what that meant. Presumably it means either 550 HP _in_ or 550 HP _out_.**] It's clear from the context that it is 550bhp out. There is nothing that they can detect going in. Presumably, the gamma atmosphere or something else is being tapped, but they haven't been able to figure out what it is. The unit is self-sustaining. Nothing needs to be 'fed' to it to keep it running. That sounds like a closed-loop to me, at least as far as the user is concerned; I guess if you are sucking up the gamma-atmosphere somebody might say it's really not a closed loop. Who cares? If the CEO is telling the truth, they have some kind of OU. [**This is where the lengthy cycle of testing to be sure the machine is not consuming some piece of itself comes in. If, to use the foregoing example, it uses lead-acid batteries, one needs to confirm that the machine isn't gradually chewing up the batteries while appearing to "recharge" them on the fly.**] They tested it for six months to make sure there was no measurement error, and have refined and tested it for 2.5 more years. They are completely confident that it isn't chewing up something in the environment. They are certain that they have OU. The jury is to help convince the public that they have the OU, not to convince them. It's a publicity gimmick. This is all based on what the CEO has said, of course, but if he's lying, he deserves an Oscar. --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. --0-2060008620-1164660240=:6781 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:



    Rhong Dhong wrote:
    > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
    >>
    >> Rhong Dhong wrote:
    >>> Here's what I've been able to glean from their
    > site.
    >>> It is self-powered. There is no input.
    >> No it's not.
    >
    > Right. The ceo has said he does not know the source of
    > the energy.
    >
    > It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something
    > like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. Whatever it is,
    > it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a
    > 550bhp motor.

   [** They said it was a "550 hp unit". They didn't explain what
that meant.
    Presumably it means either 550 HP _in_ or 550 HP _out_.**]

    It's clear from the context that it is 550bhp out. There is
nothing that they can detect going in. Presumably, the gamma
atmosphere or something else is being tapped, but they haven't
been able to figure out what it is.

    The unit is self-sustaining. Nothing needs to be 'fed' to it
to keep it running. That sounds like a closed-loop to me, at
least as far as the user is concerned; I guess if you are sucking
up the gamma-atmosphere somebody might say it's really not a
closed loop. Who cares?

    If the CEO is telling the truth, they have some kind of OU.


    [**This is where the lengthy cycle of testing to be sure the
machine is not
    consuming some piece of itself comes in. If, to use the
foregoing
    example, it uses lead-acid batteries, one needs to confirm
that the
    machine isn't gradually chewing up the batteries while
appearing to
    "recharge" them on the fly.**]

    They tested it for six months to make sure there was no
measurement error, and have refined and tested it for 2.5 more
years. They are completely confident that it isn't chewing up
something in the environment. They are certain that they have OU.

    The jury is to help convince the public that they have the OU,
not to convince them. It's a publicity gimmick.

    This is all based on what the CEO has said, of course, but if he's
lying, he deserves an Oscar.




Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. --0-2060008620-1164660240=:6781-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 13:40:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARLe82m000846; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:40:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARL9bRc023093; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:08:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3mkmm2l62aublha4foj2q9psl6kr5hsds2 4ax.com> References: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> In-Reply-To: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:08:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kARL8AQ3022219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:08:51 -0800: Hi, [snip] >It is that strange isotope of hydrogen - 18O. Almost one percent >of the unpalatable water in the Great Salt Lake water consists of >this heavy so-called "isotope" 18O. The fact that there is such an >abundance seems impossible, since 16O is one of the most stable of >all nuclei. Unfortunately, I think the explanation for the high concentration can in this case be found in the mundane. The lake is salty because it has no outlet. This means that the only way out for water is through evaporation. As we all know, evaporation tends to favor the lighter isotopes, hence the heavier 18O gets concentrated (as should D BTW). > >It has been speculated, on this forum before, that some of what is >responsible for this seeming anomaly in abundance is not due to a >primordial isotopic branching - but instead derives continuously >from the stable 16O in nature, which migrates in vapor and then in >the ionosphere becomes ozone, and then may capture and serve as a >host for the ubiquitous "solar hydrino-hydride." If there is any >of it on earth, this is one of the few possible mechanisms which >can bring it down [if that is, the bulk of it arrives charged, in >the Hy- form instead of Hy or Hy2]. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 13:56:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARLuJZa015896; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:56:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARLuInP015872; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:56:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:56:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qgcBlfnbgVFW8dXrVCEBKgaPKwf1P4kRvCXLxJgVDrRGH6qekU0fuMDeLyh+v5fiVohpUbzz78VdYoVBq0LeOPI7gXB3OsAiukVfYAdam/qJc1/25ALaWHoJSCqiL2gpguxJkJZAwIbgAyZAxqGIlLF2dYQSPLuDalVzXVy3tqs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:58:45 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth In-Reply-To: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <00d401c71246$b6d0dae0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: <1J5rTC.A.43D.B81aFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/27/06, Jones Beene wrote: > As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of > wealth], take the national helium repository for instance - close > by a certain ranch in Crawford TX. Well, now, this gives a whole new slant to the recent news: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/473514p-398371c.html Closed to install the new 3He separation system? Can't have a parade wasting such a valuable resource now can we? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 14:00:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARM07cq019373; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:00:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARLl8U6008988; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:47:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:47:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:47:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:47:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kARLl54u008931 Resent-Message-ID: <9r2DG.A.UMC.cz1aFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:37:45 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Obviously....but then again >maybe free electrons and protons have no weight. [snip] The Solar corona (no to mention the Sun itself) is largely free electrons and protons, yet they are kept "attached" to the Sun by their weight....or are they kept there by their electric field...or are they the same thing? :) When a charged particle tries to leave a neutral plasma, it leaves behind a particle of the opposite charge. That results in an attractive force between the plasma and the charged particle. If this force is summed over all particles, do we end up with "gravity"? (Just a "what if" - please all feel free to pounce at once. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 14:20:57 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARMKG9w008849; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:20:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARMBCC3002387; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:11:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:11:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dbHGItUkkSk3qnpRSwcsQoORtdCh0gkcMcLyBq9OcuPkwBeLtWUtrBouxU8u/4+uJ85harIwU+iU6d5T+F0aUxmZvPwQH9v5+Trg6l6KxdRDykWJZi9aiu7jgMM1fd4m537HqYOUwdARUfnv3GErrO49+tB1ocmdX95dIu5stok= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:08:52 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <611764.30356.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <456A6600.8020103 pobox.com> <611764.30356.qm web35010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/27/06, Rhong Dhong wrote: > It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something > like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. You can count on it. > Whatever it is, > it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a > 550bhp motor. This is larger than the alleged Perendev magmo. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 14:38:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARMcEjZ028050; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:38:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARMcD1s028031; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:38:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c71274$b99cdd40$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <200611260056.33099.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> <001001c7115c$d99f07d0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:38:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am responding to Standing Bear off list. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 15:18:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kARMqqPL009302; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:56:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARMnEtg003834; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:49:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:49:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum Between Concentric Spheres-Cylinders Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:48:59 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <456A6A5C.1030401 pobox.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's interesting you should say that. For a long time I've predicted that the speed of light thru a charged capacitor (say vacuum dielectric, or any other) should be slower than normally. Has this experiment been done? According to my interpretation of Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal System theory, it should. That would be easy to test -- just shine a laser between the plates of a charged capacitor at an angle to a linear edge and see if there's an offset in the emerging beam. See: http://www.rstheory.com/ http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/ Frederick Sparber wrote: ...marginally slower rate of time passage, which means, from the point of view of an outside observer, C should be slightly lower between the plates. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 16:02:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS00mKS023114; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:02:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARNgJ1r028571; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:42:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 6f.9O3AVM1lfrDaKCJhm0LIngoTllD.pcq87S49G5INtPnp1RehmvS_wrjYEPRckFIAlkgTJVw1s5YHtcMLkxjoZTtLJ1nmoiiLQ_YkwluPywlQr5QHt3g-- Message-ID: <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:35:31 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > [snip] >> Nothing in, something out => efficiency = infinity. > > The concept of infinite efficiency is somewhat > interesting. Consider a black box that requires 100 > watts input, and outputs 1 KW. When operating the > black box could theoretically do away with the 100 W > input by robbing 100 watts from its 1 KW output. So > now the black box requires no input, but outputs 900 > watts. :-) Absolutely -- and that's the point. They say they've broken the first law but they're still fiddling around trying to convince a panel of experts that their device really is over unity. If it's over unity, close the loop, and then there's no issue. COP>1, which is their explicit claim, doesn't necessarily imply over-unity, unfortunately, and almost surely implies they haven't closed the loop, as I've already said. On the other hand, the fact that they apparently can't close the loop (at least, as I read their claims!) doesn't necessarily mean they haven't got an OU device. Something which consumed 495 watts and produced 500 watts might be hard to close the loop on, but it would nonetheless be a spectacular breakthrough. An example might be an electric motor which produced more mechanical energy than the electrical energy it consumed -- to close the loop you need to convert the mechanical energy back into electrical energy, which introduces losses which may eat up your OU. The result would be something that was in reality an amazing breakthrough, but which still wouldn't convince Bob Parks. (Does this describe the Sprain motor? I haven't been following that one.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 16:02:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS00mKU023114; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:02:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kARNR6GN013518; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:27:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:27:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: NohAOB8VM1nxo3cPpV0rDQMrPodTIXOhiMRz_JAHBvm8HLkFZiTBcRyGNrMrP3bFMSi.d6_XJvQehMOq1kWPFDX4kaCivmgYv6pT7RSBYE_mHsfY5nSmBQ-- Message-ID: <456B72B0.5040404 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:20:16 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <75693.6781.qm web35003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <75693.6781.qm web35003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: > > > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > > Rhong Dhong wrote: > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> > >> Rhong Dhong wrote: > >>> Here's what I've been able to glean from their > > site. > >>> It is self-powered. There is no input. > >> No it's not. > > > > Right. The ceo has said he does not know the source of > > the energy. > > > > It isn't anything obvious, so maybe it is something > > like Frank Grimer's gamma atmosphere. Whatever it is, > > it just goes on and on and on, even to powering a > > 550bhp motor. > > [** They said it was a "550 hp unit". They didn't explain what > that meant. > Presumably it means either 550 HP _in_ or 550 HP _out_.**] > > It's clear from the context that it is 550bhp out. There is > nothing that they can detect going in. They never actually said that, as far as I can see. They waffle around it but never quite come out and say it. If they said it, that would mean they had closed the loop. But, as I said, they have not asserted that they have _no_ input -- merely that the input is not sufficient to explain the output. They use a lot of very vague language, but try to find anyplace where they actually say there is _no_ energy input. I sure couldn't find such a claim. Here is what I found, on their "technology" page: > [ ... ] > > Steorn's technology appears to violate the 'Principle of Conservation > of Energy' > > [ ... ] > > 1. The technology has a coefficient of performance greater than 100%. > > 2. The operation of the technology is not derived from the > degradation of its component parts. > > 3. There is no identifiable source of the energy. I would describe these statements as intentionally vague (what _IS_ the COP value, anyway? They don't say!). However, in view of statement #1, it appears to me that "the energy" in #3 can _only_ mean they have not identified this value: (output - input) It seems clear that it does not mean there is no input at all. If there were no input, statement #1 would be silly: COP=infinity in that case, and nobody would describe it by saying "COP > 1". Furthermore, their statement that it "_appears_" to violate COE would be equally absurd IF they had no energy input -- there wouldn't be any "appears" about it in that case. But, they clearly _do_ have energy going in, and therefore they need to base any such claim on careful measurements to determine how much is coming out, versus how much is going in. There are two key points here: a) A heat pump has COP>1 but it has an identifiable source of the excess energy (the exhaust air gets cooler). b) You can't close the loop on a heat pump because it doesn't violate either the first or second law. > Presumably, the gamma > atmosphere or something else is being tapped, but they haven't > been able to figure out what it is. > > The unit is self-sustaining. Nothing needs to be 'fed' to it > to keep it running. I could find no such statement on their website. As far as I can tell they wave their hands a lot but nowhere do they claim to have closed the loop. Anyway, enough. I will grant you that their statements are vague enough that, if you want to, you can interpret them to mean they have no energy going in at all, but I remain unconvinced that that's what they mean. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 16:37:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS0BaIi031792; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS0BX3G031748; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ygvrKK6D8UNqCsrmHqJLoy6Jv+Ti70Eu6Hwt0tgU6bzd7m2p5slCfPZivt2ZPGcCVOZdz5GGJ/1bvu6YjD8Zst9UQ1hxZq4eVv6r3K2jtH5sA0sYsdzGyElefkRTCr1g+H+soTqOzK3lIJsXnnZfvu2lmOK3KWyzenXOsOBCFYo= ; Message-ID: <20061128001128.62930.qmail web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3mkmm2l62aublha4foj2q9psl6kr5hsds2 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin > I think the explanation for the high concentration can in this case be found in the mundane... No, no - I should have been clearer - it is not that 'local' concentration which is the precise anomaly in question. But yes there is the mundane explanation for the salt lake also. The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region (and presumably the 'normal' ratio found at the time earth cooled) has been measured as 0.18, almost three times lower than the present ratio found in earth's oceans (~.5) and much lower than the total planetary ratio (.3)which includes CO2. (Wilson & Rood 1994). The best explanation for this is that the ratio is altered in a planetary environment by some unknown mechanism vis-a-vis interstellar space. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 17:02:34 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS0oFKm008665; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:50:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS0Mb25011755; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:22:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rhiuhkvtOzZF4Q69UYRcEE+xWWNkWMuu1mZguJNAQ7vwKu6Vian6/nE/GGQsmW2WWHFwvSDXUX1oXbiMjumnqWhOfTZrItHWPj4HXkTA5c8usTcp/MAoMNykppPE/IMTp7k3y2Khh809myW0T8VNlkUKBOrgsDL6+BZbWCuXnUE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:21:44 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/27/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > An example might be an electric motor which produced more mechanical > energy than the electrical energy it consumed -- to close the loop you > need to convert the mechanical energy back into electrical energy, which > introduces losses which may eat up your OU. The result would be > something that was in reality an amazing breakthrough, but which still > wouldn't convince Bob Parks. (Does this describe the Sprain motor? I > haven't been following that one.) Indeed it does. The Sprain Magmo uses a spiral magnetic gradient to produce torque. An electromagnet is used to kick the rotor past the sticky spot. The energy consumed by the electromagnet is less than the mechanical energy produced by the gradient. The problem with self running has been the waveform of the energy produced by the PM generator. The voltage from the permanent mag gen ramps from 13 V to 28 V. 20 V is required to fire the EM. The min V is produced after the firing (when the torque is at a minimum). I have tried trigger circuits which don't draw from the magmo torque until the V exceeds 20 V; but, we have had no success since this eliminates a large part of the energy produced. The gradient of the field of the present configuration is 0.8 G per degree. We have a new magnet which will produce a gradient of 20 G per degree. We lack the enthusiasm to pursue a self-runner when you know that the new mag will ship soon. Now our limiting factor seems to be the inductance of the EM. The new EM weighs 45 lbs but only doubles the inductance. We will not achieve the theorized 4500 RPM; but, we will far exceed the current 90 RPM. I have no doubts this new mag will let us self-run. Stay tuned. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 17:20:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS1KbcC017726; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:20:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS1Kb98017715; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:20:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:20:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: j5WggEcVM1nHFJb4OVw6c7WMbtiQFSMPodFICFjGBOa897sDMoCnAriub0yCN15czCtc8gvQog1by8UFB5ro4k62xgG7t3SiJFcB1nAyUC2fj_hCJzUa9g-- Message-ID: <456B8EE0.8030903 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:20:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0pTshB.A.qUE.k74aFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Vorts, > > While spying on my neighbors about a mile away, Tournament Players > Club, aka Sugarloaf Country Club, I came across this image: > > http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=34.010799,-84.115362&spn=0.004562,0. > > 007231&t=k&om=1 > > http://tinyurl.com/wclkj > > Now, if that is a dirigible, where's the shadow? Does Google do this > for fun? Or is it a UFO? I don't think it's faked. It looks like an ad blimp, and I see what looks like a definite shadow. First, look at the tree line along the highway, and look at the shadows from the trees. They're falling diagonally, to the upper left of each tree; you can see them like tooth marks on the highway. Now, at max zoom, draw a line from the _tail_ of the blimp in the same direction. Look at the embankment by the side of the highway, just above and to the left of the blimp. There's a dark area there, which has a bulge at the end, just like the blimp's tail, just about where the shadow might fall if the blimp is flying low. That dark area has no business being there, unless it's a shadow -- but note that its edges are fuzzier than the tree shadows, both because the blimp is a lot higher than the trees (and the edges spread at about a 1/2 degree angle, of course), and because it's falling on rough ground with lots of vegetation. Now, trace the body of the blimp in the shadow, which goes down and to the left. First, the shadow climbs the embankment, faster than you might expect, because the embankment is sloped. Second, it gets lost in the line of trees next to the highway, which are somewhat dark. Finally, the nose of the shadow apparently just barely misses getting onto the pavement -- or perhaps it runs over a bit, but is superimposed on one of the tree shadows. I've outlined the area in which I think the shadow has fallen, here (I drew the outline a bit outside the area of the shadow): http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/blimp-shadow-1.png Again, since the shadow is falling on a hillside, it's not parallel to the (horizontal) blimp. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 17:46:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS1k96Q004920; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:46:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS1k61P004890; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:46:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:46:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:59:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You're welcome, Frank. I am aware that the value of the proton radius is questionable, for example http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Proton.html the two values listed are 0.805 ± 0.011 and 0.862 ± 0.012 femtometers. So there is some wiggle room for theory, but 1.4 seems like too big a stretch from the known experimental evidence. See this for example. http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/9712347 which is a pretty good summation of work up to that date. Anyway, with these base figures I get a capacity for the proton of ~.96 x 10^-25 Farads. While I don't know how this all fits into your theory, it might prove more profitable to just toss out preconceived notions, find the most accurate measured values, and play with those. As I said, there's some wiggle room with the proton, but not much more than .1 femtometers. I rather like the direction Fred was going with this, although I would disagree that the impedence of the electron is the space impedence. I'd be happy to bat this around, but it seems like this list is still immersed in the kinds of discussion that drove me away last year. If you or anyone else has read this far, and you want to discuss these issues or others relating to the new energy scene, do contact me privately, I run a list for just this purpose. No requirements for joining other than the ability to think rationally and post without (too much ) axe grinding...*grin* Hope this helps. K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:18 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Thank you Keith, I made a mistake in calling the classical radius of the proton and the maximum radius of the proton by the same number. One is actually twice the other. My work required the radius of the proton 1.4 fermi meters. Do you have any ideas of why this is? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 17:49:50 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS1eFGb000823; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:49:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS1drAs000558; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:39:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=3HvKveTfstfhJoXiLJ0c5raiFmxsd3fNW3Z8/Onx0nvJuT6y0T1S44YR137ProxzKevYOUttXvwUr64rf9e0hJLdy2l3YUUxaIFz9wFqyV7yGxSIvRENv37u5cA5DO1Mq9s9KdUHDAjimHCCt45QeVltTA41ltn0YWLV8afHtZg= ; X-YMail-OSG: .sHms68VM1kD32Mof9RwIV9.Da37yMovxxEqq2NFBBR4_macakcCuPc7deSpJnCzNQGv211AuNt3ps8guPqXK3OhHQEhhJuvU5ur3UAlxfLzgd07J4PAgg-- Message-ID: <014c01c7128d$254201c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:33:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Neo-Valet Parking? Status: O X-Status: 'fonly ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHJrSMjuUjw&mode=related&search= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 27 20:28:56 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS4QipJ022953; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:26:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS4Qf3h022918; Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:26:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:26:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003801c71298$cfa11d80$69037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Hidden wealth Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:56:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C71266.843CF4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C71266.843CF4E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0035_01C71266.843E7B80" ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C71266.843E7B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Jones wrote.. As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of=20 wealth], take the national helium repository for instance - close=20 by a certain ranch in Crawford TX. This one is not yet=20 fictionalized. It was recently, very quietly, shuttled into=20 private hands from DoE, in what is clearly political manipulation.=20 There could be a trillion dollars worth of 3He "hidden" in there -=20 but no one is talking. And few except at the highest levels would=20 know for sure if a breakthrough in 3He fusion has taken place in a=20 so-called "black" project. Still black-gold, eh? Howdy Jones, My! what big eyes you got grandma. Private hands indeed!... spell that = Bechtol Corporation, George Shultz, the cowardly lion lookalike. Who is = Bechtol ? The leading US nuke plant contractor, the 2nd in command ( = still carrying Brown and Root's water) in Iraq et al. Enter the "committee" lead by Jim Baker ( another good ole Texas boy) = serving to figure out how to right wrongs brought about by a totally = disaster called the " W" factor. No place but Texas. Helium... ah ha ! Did you say Algeria? hmmm... French-Italian nuke = interests ? Tell us why Helium and Nuclear power fit hand in glove.. an = indispensible element. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C71266.843E7B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Jones wrote..
 
As for the coming decade [and stranger than fiction forms of =
wealth],=20 take the national helium repository for instance - close
by a = certain ranch=20 in Crawford TX. This one is not yet
fictionalized. It was recently, = very=20 quietly, shuttled into
private hands from DoE, in what is clearly = political=20 manipulation.
There could be a trillion dollars worth of 3He = "hidden" in=20 there -
but no one is talking. And few except at the highest levels = would=20
know for sure if a breakthrough in 3He fusion has taken place in a=20
so-called "black" project. Still black-gold, eh?
Howdy Jones,
My! what big eyes you got grandma. Private hands indeed!... spell = that=20 Bechtol Corporation, George Shultz, the cowardly lion lookalike. Who is = Bechtol=20 ? The leading US nuke plant contractor, the 2nd in command ( still = carrying=20 Brown and Root's water) in Iraq et al.
Enter the "committee" lead by Jim Baker ( another good ole Texas = boy)=20 serving to figure out how to right wrongs brought about by a totally = disaster=20 called the " W" factor.
No place but Texas.
Helium... ah ha ! Did you say Algeria? hmmm... French-Italian nuke=20 interests ?
Tell us why Helium and Nuclear power fit hand in glove.. = an=20 indispensible element.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0035_01C71266.843E7B80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C71266.843CF4E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003301c71298$cece3d20$69037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C71266.843CF4E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 01:17:39 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS9HNwJ028821; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:17:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS9HJKP028788; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:17:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:17:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04b401c712cd$fe92d5e0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:17:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAS9HGpu028730 Resent-Message-ID: <7FvQ4B.A.iBH.f6_aFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: x-rays from TC capacitors?!!! Status: O X-Status: Interesting, but surely if the vacuum thus created was significant your Al foil would be sucked in until no space remains between it and the glass? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:39 AM Subject: [Vo]: x-rays from TC capacitors?!!! > > I stumbled across an odd idea. > > If a home-built stacked-plate capacitor is operated with high-volt pulses, > then the thin air-film trapped between the foils and the dielectric sheets > will glow violet. (I verified this idea using a quickie test device made > from a thin glass bowl, foil on the bottom, and salt-water on the top. > Sure enough, under pulsed HV drive there's a purple glow shining from the > foil surface under the glass.) > > Ah, but we know that plasma leads to pumping: both from ion pump effects > where gas molecules embed into metal surfaces, and also from N2 turning > into metal nitrides, and O2 turning into metal oxides. (Plasma does > chemistry.) > > So I seal up the edges of the foil on the glass/saltwater cap, then run it > for awhile. Sure enough, the purple glow from between the foil and glass > changes color after a few minutes. Becomes greyish. Maybe even greenish. > I place it on the large ion chamber of a GM counter, but don't detect any > rise above background count. I could keep running it for lots more > minutes, but I'd burn down the contacts of my little "vacuum tester TC." > > > So... any high-voltage pulse capacitor which is sealed but which isn't > vacuum-impregnated with oil is going to have plasma-filled air films, and > the internal pressure is going to drop over time. And in theory, over > time these air layers might pump down to just below non-glowing vacuum > threshold, and then start emitting soft x-rays! > > What to do? The whole problem might be a crackpot idea, eh? It's all > speculation (except for my glass/saltwater test.) Suggestion: paint the > outside of your home-built well-sealed Tesla coil stacked-plate capacitors > with ZnS glow-in-dark paint. Run them in a darkened room separate from > the bright streamers and spark gap. Or instead make an xray alarm: a > solar cell as sensor, painted with fluorescent paint and embedded in black > epoxy or silicone. > > First one to detect a dim green glow wins a prize: slightly irradiated > gonads! > > :) > > > If the effect ever proves real, then does it mean we can replace the > vacuum tube in the dentist office with a bunch of aluminum foil layers > with spontaneously-appearing vacuum inside? (And would a cylindrically > wrapped capacitor act as a line-source of x-rays?) > > More pure speculation: if capacitors ever do emit x-rays, then it's > one more source of x-rays that Nikola with his fluorescent screens and > glass photographers plates might have stumbled upon. Yes, he probably did > find x-rays when operating his carbon button lamps. But what if he > hadn't? Imagine how confusing it might have been if he'd tracked down the > capacitor as the source of a new kind of radiation, only to later hear > from Roentgen that vacuum tubes also produce it. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty Research Engineer > beaty chem.washington.edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > billb eskimo.com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > ph425-222-5066 http//staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 01:54:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAS9oKbn025256; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:54:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAS9aFaF014632; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:36:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:36:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04b001c712cc$3554d990$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <456B8EE0.8030903@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:04:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAS9a0Vi014409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You could be right Stephen but don't you agree the outline of the blimp looks quite unnatural? Much worse than ordinary image compression artefacts I would say. Congratulations for your web site BTW! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs > > > Terry Blanton wrote: >> Vorts, >> >> While spying on my neighbors about a mile away, Tournament Players >> Club, aka Sugarloaf Country Club, I came across this image: >> >> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=34.010799,-84.115362&spn=0.004562,0. >> >> 007231&t=k&om=1 >> >> http://tinyurl.com/wclkj >> >> Now, if that is a dirigible, where's the shadow? Does Google do this >> for fun? Or is it a UFO? > > I don't think it's faked. It looks like an ad blimp, and I see what > looks like a definite shadow. > > First, look at the tree line along the highway, and look at the shadows > from the trees. They're falling diagonally, to the upper left of each > tree; you can see them like tooth marks on the highway. > > Now, at max zoom, draw a line from the _tail_ of the blimp in the same > direction. Look at the embankment by the side of the highway, just > above and to the left of the blimp. There's a dark area there, which > has a bulge at the end, just like the blimp's tail, just about where the > shadow might fall if the blimp is flying low. That dark area has no > business being there, unless it's a shadow -- but note that its edges > are fuzzier than the tree shadows, both because the blimp is a lot > higher than the trees (and the edges spread at about a 1/2 degree angle, > of course), and because it's falling on rough ground with lots of > vegetation. > > Now, trace the body of the blimp in the shadow, which goes down and to > the left. First, the shadow climbs the embankment, faster than you > might expect, because the embankment is sloped. Second, it gets lost in > the line of trees next to the highway, which are somewhat dark. > > Finally, the nose of the shadow apparently just barely misses getting > onto the pavement -- or perhaps it runs over a bit, but is superimposed > on one of the tree shadows. > > I've outlined the area in which I think the shadow has fallen, here (I > drew the outline a bit outside the area of the shadow): > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/blimp-shadow-1.png > > Again, since the shadow is falling on a hillside, it's not parallel to > the (horizontal) blimp. > > >> >> Terry >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 07:58:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASFgQDZ010656; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:42:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASFgJgj010202; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:42:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:18:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kASFg75V009797 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Indeed it does. Hi Terry, for another opinion Stephen could have a look at the controversy you and I had about this some time ago, I had found what looked very much like a large error in input current measurement by analysing the Mosfet's voltage waveform and applying Ohm's low to it knowing it's ON resistance (search for Sprain in the list archive). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn > On 11/27/06, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> An example might be an electric motor which produced more mechanical >> energy than the electrical energy it consumed -- to close the loop you >> need to convert the mechanical energy back into electrical energy, which >> introduces losses which may eat up your OU. The result would be >> something that was in reality an amazing breakthrough, but which still >> wouldn't convince Bob Parks. (Does this describe the Sprain motor? I >> haven't been following that one.) > > Indeed it does. The Sprain Magmo uses a spiral magnetic gradient to > produce torque. An electromagnet is used to kick the rotor past the > sticky spot. The energy consumed by the electromagnet is less than > the mechanical energy produced by the gradient. > > The problem with self running has been the waveform of the energy > produced by the PM generator. The voltage from the permanent mag gen > ramps from 13 V to 28 V. 20 V is required to fire the EM. The min V > is produced after the firing (when the torque is at a minimum). I > have tried trigger circuits which don't draw from the magmo torque > until the V exceeds 20 V; but, we have had no success since this > eliminates a large part of the energy produced. > > The gradient of the field of the present configuration is 0.8 G per > degree. We have a new magnet which will produce a gradient of 20 G > per degree. We lack the enthusiasm to pursue a self-runner when you > know that the new mag will ship soon. > > Now our limiting factor seems to be the inductance of the EM. The new > EM weighs 45 lbs but only doubles the inductance. We will not achieve > the theorized 4500 RPM; but, we will far exceed the current 90 RPM. I > have no doubts this new mag will let us self-run. > > Stay tuned. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 09:30:51 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASHKoRW019120; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:30:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASGNP0V020345; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:23:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:23:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 2OpxygYVM1lBKbKekK3Gv5Jy5wqaI96NIv_PH1xvH_bmcxdKxrvO063F.75roLYe0.XJcmG31ZONrA0CSosDaydv.nlk57qAP8SZqfsIg1G4x52iMDr3_Q-- Message-ID: <456C5ADF.6030803 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:50:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT] Google Maps Easter Eggs References: <456B8EE0.8030903@pobox.com> <04b001c712cc$3554d990$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <04b001c712cc$3554d990$3800a8c0 zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > You could be right Stephen but don't you agree the outline of the > blimp looks quite unnatural? Much worse than ordinary image compression > artefacts I would say. Oh man. I really looked at the blimp this time, and you're right -- at high mag, it looks like the lower edge of the blimp is stuck to a jagged strip of background that doesn't match what it's flying over. Somebody at Google must have been bored. Looks like they cut it out of someplace else and weren't too careful about getting the cut line right up against the blimp. Brother... Come to think of it, maybe we should check the length. If this is a satellite photo then the blimp and the ground can be taken to be in the same plane, and the length of the blimp should be measurable by comparison with stuff on the ground. If the blimp was snipped from a different photo, OTOH, it may look too big or too small. With good old Gimp, I measure the blimp as 196 pixels, and one side of the divided highway as 29 pixels. If the lanes are 12 feet wide, so one pair of lanes is 24 feet wide, then the blimp is 162 feet long. A common Goodyear blimp, according to one website, is 130 feet long. According to another site, the largest blimp flying in the U.S. today is over 200 feet long. So, 162 feet is plausible for the length, and that test is inconclusive... > > Congratulations for your web site BTW! > > Michel > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 10:08:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASI0KK9001341; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:03:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASHvNd6030377; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:57:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:57:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=iWgzu1IK3W26CXZEO81LzLEfZdBtzutdn9NxUgkpwdQ0Hm5E3kf0BSh2kgCe5uQ4SphSZHq74550VfbPPbMcwWUstgVSpLVMlH6KwT+Z1WocOh0y4StaxktrL5CBJjHs8BT2N/oZEXpJptE2znUi71VuuUP+gSmS2xL1ApB7Av0= ; X-YMail-OSG: W_zK0aIVM1niBNt4K6MDpCvm0yeFD0ywB_cvMrDV5Tb0XVoF_BK9zwWIhkNjY22yuocDcuaisM4AAYJp.a0dci0_u7jk.c8v.NyVN1nmReFXL7nY_S4R_xiPXHXlM4zvowAe4LfU Message-ID: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:57:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way Status: O X-Status: Subject: Biomimicry, the old way... Older than the hills, awkshally ... as in billion-year old. We may owe the present green Earth and abundant fresh air to an ancient global "deep-freeze" ... for which [previously unlikely] scenario, "snowball earth", there is now accumulating evidence - i.e. that the entire planet was once covered in thick sheets of ice, billions of years ago. There was so-called anaerobic life prior to this, but that is all. The "air" contained little or no oxygen. That is the premise of "expanding" to the limit - a prescient article in "NewScientist" [28 Nov '06] the magazine which SciAm "ought-to-be" trying to mimic. Real science based on 'taking a risk' with some degree of educated-speculation, instead of real-fluff based on total mainstream obeisance. End of the obligatory SciAm mini-rant. OK, the evolution of oxygen-based photosynthesis has been hard to explain in the past, without speculative thinking - since oxygen is deadly to the very primitive life which would first want to use it ... and Mother nature knows very well that you don't piss in the same pot you eat out of ... ...whereas we had formerly suspected that using sunlight to free electrons from sulfur, calcium and iron compounds in a terrestrial but oxygen-free environment is possible. But not if the whole earth is totally glaciated. That terrestrial kind of oxy-genesis could not have happened first IF the entire planet had been ice-covered, as it now seems that it was. Consequently, we need to add another layer of complication. See ... until fairly recently ... we were totally unaware of this "snow-ball" earth situation and like most new findings - it raised more problems than it solved. But oxygen somehow appeared anyway, from putative snowball-earth, as it melted. How did this transpire and how did organisms evolve oxygen tolerance? Short answer: HOOH. Ultraviolet light from the Sun produces hydrogen peroxide when it hits water molecules. Always - even nowadays. So how come the oceans aren't full of peroxide? Turns out, sunlight at the same time destroys almost all the peroxide as it forms, so that very little accumulates - ergo, substantial O2 cannot be released from water this way. The situation is similar with a peroxide catalyst. It is a constant see-saw recycling process of: H2O <--> HOOH ... in the "unfrozen ocean" [or the lab] and H2O is far more stable to UV and everything else, but HOOH is always there, especially if some extra O2 is available. However, when UV light penetrates through a few meters of semi-transparent glacier, small amounts of peroxide will form a certain depth and can be shielded by the glacial ice for a long enough time to disperse into the layers below and then the oceans below, without being immediately destroyed, if that glacier is in the process of melting. Then ... as the glacier thaws, any trapped hydronium/hydrogen, left in it after the peroxide formed, is dispersed, while at the same time, the HOOH in the ocean also gets destroyed, releasing oxygen but too late to recombine with the H2 and we have ... Voila: instant breathable atmosphere. Ok it might take snow-ball earth a few tens of million years to pull this off, but fresh air is worth every second. HOOH has been spotted on Jupiter's icy moon Europa, and that may be one of the reasons that this new theory is taking hold. The surface of Europa is shielded by a terrestrial ice sheet and would have been very similar on a primitive Earth which lacked an oxygen-rich atmosphere, and a protective ozone layer - which layer, BTW, has all but disappeared over the polar regions. BTW, this moon is the best candidate in the solar system for life (unless Mars really has a remnant) OK enough speculation on ancient history: snowball earth and a breath of fresh air. What Vortexians want to know: is there a free-energy angle in all of this? Yup, or at least there could be.... if only in the fertile imagination of terraforming futurists. Antarctica. Will it be a powerhouse of future energy resources? Maybe. Here is how it could happen: once we get to the level of robotics and primitive AI (since it is pretty hard to entice many humans to work down there, digging out a glacier). Look for this level of robotic sophistication, at mass-produced cost - within a decade. Imagine a workforce of 100,000 small mass-produced crawler robots, kinda like the ones which were used to investigate the "shafts" in the Egyptian Pyramids - yet each equipped with a laser, solar cells and a "Son-of-X-box" brain. You start out with a big tunnel dug into a glacier near its flow-path into the ocean - where the factory ship is anchored ... which glacier is the size of Texas, and then you unleash the robots. They are programmed like little moles to begin forming an intricate web of tunnels and shafts, using the laser to cut out cylinders of ice at just the correct depth below the icy surface - maybe 10 meters below the surface where there is ample light but a lesser degree of UV. At this level (whatever it actually turns out to be) HOOH is created faster than it can be destroyed and since its freezing point is much lower than water and it will trickle down the shafts into a waiting tanker. This can be accelerated by pumping O2 into the shafts. Far out enough for you? Well... if the economics don't work out favorably in Antarctica, even in the era of $100/barrel oil, then later on - they might be more favorable on Europa... ;-) There's more to this peroxide stuff to ponder ...but hey, bleacher-bums ... it's not even spring-training yet, so let's chill-out for a while and let the A-team loosen up. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 11:22:11 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASJFBgI020713; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:15:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASJF8GE020641; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:15:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001d01c71321$80c3c2b0$e5027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: BioMimicry, the old way Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:15:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C712EF.3596AFA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C712EF.3596AFA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C712EF.3596AFA0" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C712EF.3596AFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Real science based on 'taking a risk' with some degree of=20 educated-speculation, instead of real-fluff based on total=20 mainstream obeisance. Consequently, we need to=20 add another layer of complication. See ... until fairly recently=20 ... we were totally unaware of this "snow-ball" earth situation=20 and like most new findings - it raised more problems than it=20 solved. But oxygen somehow appeared anyway, from putative snowball-earth,=20 as it melted. How did this transpire and how did organisms evolve=20 oxygen tolerance? Short answer: HOOH. Howdy Jones, Where would we be without a after thankgiving portion of delicious " = grits" as served by the " Jones"??? " Obeisance is right out of his = vocabulary . My ole pal, the geologist and I could never agree on anything including = the earth was round or flat. I considered the premise the earth was once = completely sheathed in an ice cover so massive that the pressure " = increased " the heat of the core. Why so? Assuming it is now in a near = fluid state... would it have to been rather non-elastic in order for = the mass to form the ball ?? Hmmm. Are earthquakes "recent" events in = time and are they evidence of this massive release of weight represented = by melting of the ice sheath? Mix hydrogen peroxide and oxone... what is the reaction from these two = oxidants? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C712EF.3596AFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

Real science based on 'taking a risk' with some degree of=20
educated-speculation, instead of real-fluff based on total =
mainstream=20 obeisance.


 Consequently, we need to
add another layer of = complication. See=20 ... until fairly recently
... we were totally unaware of this = "snow-ball"=20 earth situation
and like most new findings - it raised more problems = than it=20
solved.

But oxygen somehow appeared anyway, from putative=20 snowball-earth,
as it melted. How did this transpire and how did = organisms=20 evolve
oxygen tolerance? Short answer: HOOH.

 

Howdy Jones,

Where would we be without a after thankgiving portion of delicious " = grits"=20 as served by the " Jones"???   " Obeisance is right out of his = vocabulary  <grin>.

My ole pal, the geologist and I could never agree on anything = including the=20 earth was round or flat. I considered the premise the earth was = once=20 completely sheathed in an ice cover so massive that the pressure  " = increased " the heat of the core. Why so?  Assuming it is now in=20 a near fluid state... would it have to  been rather = non-elastic=20 in order for the mass to form the ball ?? Hmmm. Are = earthquakes =20 "recent" events in time and are they evidence of this massive release of = weight=20 represented by melting of the ice sheath?

Mix hydrogen peroxide and oxone... what is the reaction from these = two=20 oxidants?

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C712EF.3596AFA0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C712EF.3596AFA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c71321$802deb50$e5027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C712EF.3596AFA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 12:22:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASKLuTV027490; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:21:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASKLj3O027379; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:21:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:21:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ul+qGNOZcbuIrJuFtXIqH5WJeqX8cBGEFTmeWckSWrSm1zjAIb/6yooFPCFDYVhfuIVCpvt/P/ZVe60eyITvAmkwnt7UkjdLdi2Z0qeF9oRthcyBNS1Sld0UPYBf/YNuROWe27qpPW9x/13PQCk6xfaOVXCcW5qVJiL/vQRZqSQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:54:51 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: first off, i first heard the theory that earth spent time as an iceball after the molten slagball before the dirt ball stage AGES ago. its an accepted geologic theory that said icing over is what broke down early rock into the first sand and dirt to provide a base for life as the ice melted. also, on the piss in its own pot bit. umm, yeast, when working anerobically, make alchohol. a poison to them. animals make co2, something they cant use. mammals produce large amounts of nitrogen and iron compounds. (ammonia, urea, and bile) why WOULDNT have early aneaorbic life had oxygen as a waste product? chlorophyl based plants do, and the compounds involved in photosynthesis have been shown to occur naturally under certain conditions. On 11/28/06, Jones Beene wrote: > Subject: Biomimicry, the old way... > > Older than the hills, awkshally ... as in billion-year old. > > We may owe the present green Earth and abundant fresh air to an > ancient global "deep-freeze" ... for which [previously unlikely] > scenario, "snowball earth", there is now accumulating evidence - > i.e. that the entire planet was once covered in thick sheets of > ice, billions of years ago. > > There was so-called anaerobic life prior to this, but that is all. > The "air" contained little or no oxygen. That is the premise of > "expanding" to the limit - a prescient article in "NewScientist" > [28 Nov '06] the magazine which SciAm "ought-to-be" trying to > mimic. Real science based on 'taking a risk' with some degree of > educated-speculation, instead of real-fluff based on total > mainstream obeisance. > > End of the obligatory SciAm mini-rant. > > OK, the evolution of oxygen-based photosynthesis has been hard to > explain in the past, without speculative thinking - since oxygen > is deadly to the very primitive life which would first want to use > it ... and Mother nature knows very well that you don't piss in > the same pot you eat out of ... > > ...whereas we had formerly suspected that using sunlight to free > electrons from sulfur, calcium and iron compounds in a terrestrial > but oxygen-free environment is possible. But not if the whole > earth is totally glaciated. That terrestrial kind of oxy-genesis > could not have happened first IF the entire planet had been > ice-covered, as it now seems that it was. Consequently, we need to > add another layer of complication. See ... until fairly recently > ... we were totally unaware of this "snow-ball" earth situation > and like most new findings - it raised more problems than it > solved. > > But oxygen somehow appeared anyway, from putative snowball-earth, > as it melted. How did this transpire and how did organisms evolve > oxygen tolerance? Short answer: HOOH. > > Ultraviolet light from the Sun produces hydrogen peroxide when it > hits water molecules. Always - even nowadays. So how come the > oceans aren't full of peroxide? Turns out, sunlight at the same > time destroys almost all the peroxide as it forms, so that very > little accumulates - ergo, substantial O2 cannot be released from > water this way. > > The situation is similar with a peroxide catalyst. It is a > constant see-saw recycling process of: > > H2O <--> HOOH > > ... in the "unfrozen ocean" [or the lab] and H2O is far more > stable to UV and everything else, but HOOH is always there, > especially if some extra O2 is available. > > However, when UV light penetrates through a few meters of > semi-transparent glacier, small amounts of peroxide will form a > certain depth and can be shielded by the glacial ice for a long > enough time to disperse into the layers below and then the oceans > below, without being immediately destroyed, if that glacier is in > the process of melting. Then ... as the glacier thaws, any trapped > hydronium/hydrogen, left in it after the peroxide formed, is > dispersed, while at the same time, the HOOH in the ocean also gets > destroyed, releasing oxygen but too late to recombine with the H2 > and we have ... Voila: instant breathable atmosphere. Ok it might > take snow-ball earth a few tens of million years to pull this off, > but fresh air is worth every second. > > HOOH has been spotted on Jupiter's icy moon Europa, and that may > be one of the reasons that this new theory is taking hold. The > surface of Europa is shielded by a terrestrial ice sheet and would > have been very similar on a primitive Earth which lacked an > oxygen-rich atmosphere, and a protective ozone layer - which > layer, BTW, has all but disappeared over the polar regions. BTW, > this moon is the best candidate in the solar system for life > (unless Mars really has a remnant) > > OK enough speculation on ancient history: snowball earth and a > breath of fresh air. What Vortexians want to know: is there a > free-energy angle in all of this? > > Yup, or at least there could be.... if only in the fertile > imagination of terraforming futurists. > > Antarctica. Will it be a powerhouse of future energy resources? > Maybe. Here is how it could happen: once we get to the level of > robotics and primitive AI (since it is pretty hard to entice many > humans to work down there, digging out a glacier). Look for this > level of robotic sophistication, at mass-produced cost - within a > decade. > > Imagine a workforce of 100,000 small mass-produced crawler robots, > kinda like the ones which were used to investigate the "shafts" in > the Egyptian Pyramids - yet each equipped with a laser, solar > cells and a "Son-of-X-box" brain. You start out with a big tunnel > dug into a glacier near its flow-path into the ocean - where the > factory ship is anchored ... which glacier is the size of Texas, > and then you unleash the robots. They are programmed like little > moles to begin forming an intricate web of tunnels and shafts, > using the laser to cut out cylinders of ice at just the correct > depth below the icy surface - maybe 10 meters below the surface > where there is ample light but a lesser degree of UV. At this > level (whatever it actually turns out to be) HOOH is created > faster than it can be destroyed and since its freezing point is > much lower than water and it will trickle down the shafts into a > waiting tanker. This can be accelerated by pumping O2 into the > shafts. > > Far out enough for you? Well... if the economics don't work out > favorably in Antarctica, even in the era of $100/barrel oil, then > later on - they might be more favorable on Europa... ;-) > > There's more to this peroxide stuff to ponder ...but hey, > bleacher-bums ... it's not even spring-training yet, so let's > chill-out for a while and let the A-team loosen up. > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 12:41:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASKeT6h020172; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:41:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASKPPJq001111; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:25:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O/XmAyz+T5MefxhDE4b7/ti7Rj8yin3bQROpAoDiJZz4a12n8psCHmRg3yIvyvEvS6xwg/oBOjx/vwXeZLCwMFnM43c/lXm/Kj/8SoyRLdTZJx0k/C39oBhkmPSSH7Lalexs1hmkRRsN//LKVrALsHFv3qFfIjJEoP9O/9YqUu4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:25:16 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: <001d01c71321$80c3c2b0$e5027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001d01c71321$80c3c2b0$e5027841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: actually, the more elastic something is, the more it forms a ball under its own gravity as well as surface tension. (ie, fluids, even if small enough to not have gravity of their own, will still pull into a sphere in zero g from surface tension. its the smallest volume to surface area ratio, smallest amount of energy required to keep the shape. something thats too too solid wont spherize. (its why certain orbiting bodies are shphereoid that shoundt be for their mass, they are actually collections of small rocks and dust, not solid rock. On 11/28/06, RC Macaulay wrote: > > Jones wrote.. > > Real science based on 'taking a risk' with some degree of > educated-speculation, instead of real-fluff based on total > mainstream obeisance. > > > Consequently, we need to > add another layer of complication. See ... until fairly recently > ... we were totally unaware of this "snow-ball" earth situation > and like most new findings - it raised more problems than it > solved. > > But oxygen somehow appeared anyway, from putative snowball-earth, > as it melted. How did this transpire and how did organisms evolve > oxygen tolerance? Short answer: HOOH. > > > > Howdy Jones, > > Where would we be without a after thankgiving portion of delicious " grits" > as served by the " Jones"??? " Obeisance is right out of his vocabulary > . > > My ole pal, the geologist and I could never agree on anything including the > earth was round or flat. I considered the premise the earth was once > completely sheathed in an ice cover so massive that the pressure " > increased " the heat of the core. Why so? Assuming it is now in a near > fluid state... would it have to been rather non-elastic in order for the > mass to form the ball ?? Hmmm. Are earthquakes "recent" events in time and > are they evidence of this massive release of weight represented by melting > of the ice sheath? > > Mix hydrogen peroxide and oxone... what is the reaction from these two > oxidants? > > Richard > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 13:00:41 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASL055S003148; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:00:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASKpRDX030376; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:51:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:51:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Nq6xdGvSR3wu8awBI5tcRE8JgTcHzpLN2/bnKLae1a4Z456rFfrs2fVPDBH5DmPSVP/NLKNSNymqHDRQgWuXNZyTS+eH/x1cFHDFQ9kV6h3bzf1qJu1+jPavBgqCHUNEwmZ8LrnAqLC9f/f7ziPJLtt2Gz2l99eyTVPC6D3tWEs= ; X-YMail-OSG: Q6NMVdgVM1mrtlgjD3I7uF0icRjCYf_XT9b0HCJLJhVzNXLhrXut6P.d67Huj7msSwOt8ptxiZoeouu_w5SIpRTYYEn4yGA60MyoGnJEG.GWPsdgQnHvMw-- Message-ID: <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:51:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" > why WOULDNT have early aneaorbic life had oxygen as a waste > product? pretty simple really -- they cannot live on the surface of ice. The ice surface, then as now, is inhospitable to chlorophyl based plants or algae and the ice was so thick that the tiny amounds of O2 which they did make was 'de minimis.' > chlorophyl based plants do, and the compounds involved in > photosynthesis have been shown to occur naturally under certain > conditions. Again, on an ice covered planet there is simply no place for chlorophyll based plants or single celled organisms to flourish, so the O2 content of air was small until the glaciers started to melt and the HOOH process ensued. Once there was open ocean, then chlorophyll based life could thrive, but not before that time - nada. Perhaps Richard is correct that the reason the ice began to melt at all was related the thermodynamics of a hot core. That core could have been heated-up by several possible methods - including the possibility that earth had a small second moon ... at one time. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 13:43:33 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASLeLKq005663; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:41:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASLITXG021427; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:18:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:18:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jOxnK5r2wuBeEkFXruxru3bETw/fOGWBUqCfHIi5tHkoZmPjcp5x5CtaPxSMo+GUrX9QTFQJegmGLOw/iQIVZjJ/2wvfzsfibhzE7Crb3F5ZU4GD7Nw7Qz1bxFGZ1EGowKTeSOjNGOmOHO6Oo8XPWPflo85UJQ3C2NbkimXF2uU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:18:22 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i take it youve never heard of watermellon snow? http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plaug98.htm On 11/28/06, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "leaking pen" > > > why WOULDNT have early aneaorbic life had oxygen as a waste > > product? > > pretty simple really -- they cannot live on the surface of ice. > > The ice surface, then as now, is inhospitable to chlorophyl based > plants or algae and the ice was so thick that the tiny amounds of > O2 which they did make was 'de minimis.' > > > chlorophyl based plants do, and the compounds involved in > > photosynthesis have been shown to occur naturally under certain > > conditions. > > Again, on an ice covered planet there is simply no place for > chlorophyll based plants or single celled organisms to flourish, > so the O2 content of air was small until the glaciers started to > melt and the HOOH process ensued. Once there was open ocean, then > chlorophyll based life could thrive, but not before that time - > nada. > > Perhaps Richard is correct that the reason the ice began to melt > at all was related the thermodynamics of a hot core. That core > could have been heated-up by several possible methods - including > the possibility that earth had a small second moon ... at one > time. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 13:46:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kASLeLKo005663; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:41:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASLSnl9029357; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:28:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Gllwpg/EphbydNhY7jaZFDlzcAi+XtBjqmABs5BmRiAiVNE3/uNjME2Y9S/1B+FKzRBLS9lg7RY+fofOLESzc1XHd5bzaOvTfxNtvj88EG+fCQVm9zpj/HwKR3jhbY2a54f0WLeJAXvrop5L0mu/8Y3pTRq4v1HLF/1+v4Ey5Fw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:28:40 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ohh, and also, at such low temps, with a low atmosphere pressure, two of the main items released from volcanoes, hs gas and solid so, small amounts of hs gas would melt snow and become aqueous. HS (aq) and so tends to seperate out the so, which releases oxygen. On 11/28/06, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "leaking pen" > > > why WOULDNT have early aneaorbic life had oxygen as a waste > > product? > > pretty simple really -- they cannot live on the surface of ice. > > The ice surface, then as now, is inhospitable to chlorophyl based > plants or algae and the ice was so thick that the tiny amounds of > O2 which they did make was 'de minimis.' > > > chlorophyl based plants do, and the compounds involved in > > photosynthesis have been shown to occur naturally under certain > > conditions. > > Again, on an ice covered planet there is simply no place for > chlorophyll based plants or single celled organisms to flourish, > so the O2 content of air was small until the glaciers started to > melt and the HOOH process ensued. Once there was open ocean, then > chlorophyll based life could thrive, but not before that time - > nada. > > Perhaps Richard is correct that the reason the ice began to melt > at all was related the thermodynamics of a hot core. That core > could have been heated-up by several possible methods - including > the possibility that earth had a small second moon ... at one > time. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 17:08:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT10LGq029623; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:08:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASNk3hx030838; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:46:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:46:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=OwtsTZtZl0A3KUb+ToRlDJoEmprx0ZM52H+OdezSrT3Jrx+ls2pnPSxzFLEJYSnn; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <5645223.1164751680641.JavaMail.root elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:08:00 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8ade2f9d2b1d90e01e4d74ca1e780d136bd6355a4fd6b880e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 Resent-Message-ID: <3RfLND.A.JhH.5oMbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 24, 2006 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message----- >From: What's New >Sent: Nov 28, 2006 12:11 PM >To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW LISTSERV.UMD.EDU >Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday November 24, 2006 > >WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 24 Nov 06 Washington, DC > >1. BEYOND BELIEF: SCIENCE, RELIGION, REASON AND SURVIVAL. >Sponsored by The Science Network, the Beyond Belief forum was >held earlier this month at the Salk Institute. As described by >George Johnson in the Tuesday NY Times, the meeting came "to >resemble the founding convention for a political party built on a >single plank: in a world dangerously charged with ideology, >science needs to take on an evangelical role, vying with religion >as teller of the greatest story ever told." And what a story it >is turning out to be! Yet, while the world is quick to embrace >the benefits of science, people the world over cling to medieval >superstitions and defend such beliefs as a virtue. Scientists >are inclined to meekly declare their "respect" for superstitions >even while proving them to be utter nonsense. That may change. >In his recent best-seller, "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins, a >participant in Beyond Belief, observes that "God is a scientific >hypothesis," but there is no evidence to support the hypothesis. >Beyond Belief can be viewed at http://beyondbelief2006.org . > >2. SPACE STATION: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, A BIT BEHIND SCHEDULE. >Things are never easy on the ISS: first there was an overheating >space suit, then an exterior hatch stuck and cosmonaut Mikhail >Tyurin's tether got in the way. But finally he got in position to >address the ball with American astronaut Michael Lopez-Alegria >holding on to him. Meanwhile, Moscow mission control deliberated >on how to position the ball. "It's me that's supposed to be >positioned properly," Tyurin snapped. At last, using a gold- >plated 6-iron, Tyurin took his swing. He shanked it, according >to The Moscow Times.com. No matter, "I can see it moving away >from us," Tyurin exulted. Element 21, a Toronto golf company, is >paying the Russian Federal Space Agency an undisclosed amount for >the golf stunt to promote its new golf club. That should silence >the critics who complain that the ISS has no mission. >3. MARS: THE "MARS GLOBAL EXPLORER" HAS FINALLY FALLEN SILENT. >Launched ten years ago, the durable space craft reached Mars >orbit a year later. It has mapped the Martian surface, recorded >seasonal changes, and gathered evidence of water in Mar's past. >Today, the US has three orbiters and two surface rovers, and the >European Space Agency has an orbiter, the Mars Express. Still, >the Global Explorer was collecting valuable climate data. A >disabled solar panel is thought to be the problem. Efforts to >reestablish contact are given little chance. Construction, >launch and operating costs over its long life totaled $242M, or >about one-tenth the cost of a single shuttle mission to the ISS. >It was, however, completely unable to hit a golf ball. > >4. EMF: WIRELESS COMPUTER NETWORKS ARE THE LATEST CULPRIT. >Health complaint? Could be wi-fi according to Wednesday's >Evening Standard in the UK. Or you could just be neurotic. > >THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. >Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the >University of Maryland, but they should be. >--- >Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org >What's New is moving to a different listserver and our >subscription process has changed. To change your subscription >status please visit this link: >http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 17:08:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT10LGs029623; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:08:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kASLwZNT019490; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:58:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:58:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=yBaiBroeXYVv0OPw3zIIKrGtRgSnQm4VW8Vj/Xif5+H9bqtW+zxqb0rNXzxveysB8Qtm4fW53MHs+D6cejJSSlUYScf8DGIMd+qVDmdefKMFpi8jfyQY94haCqrn/bAK9V1up7prHBRzfoK2LCONz9qs1FebtFdxmZ3Vlo+x+is= ; X-YMail-OSG: UhxyWEcVM1lO_SqL1x_OqPmyw4iQIAR4O.M6KtB2JuL79VLjbQwJ57Nuqvys1Bh.0UemWlZ9GKC6ACvfRR2M3B87u0lzcDsJJ.KGxlGCK8GpjPQW5_.K Message-ID: <118a01c71338$545cc250$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0@NuDell> Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:58:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" >i take it youve never heard of watermellon snow? > http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plaug98.htm Ha! Garth told me that the closest Mike Myers ever got to science was learning not to eat the yellow variety ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 18:01:01 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT20LBr031746; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:00:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT1oY8A019675; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:50:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:50:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <73ppm2tvj775u5aqvh84klvf06p95afq39 4ax.com> References: <3mkmm2l62aublha4foj2q9psl6kr5hsds2 4ax.com> <20061128001128.62930.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061128001128.62930.qmail web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 29 Nov 2006 01:50:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAT1oPNI019502 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:11:28 -0800 (PST): Hi, > >--- Robin > >> I think the explanation for the high concentration >can in this case be found in the mundane... > >No, no - I should have been clearer - it is not that >'local' concentration which is the precise anomaly in >question. But yes there is the mundane explanation for >the salt lake also. > >The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region (and >presumably the 'normal' ratio found at the time earth >cooled) has been measured as 0.18, almost three times >lower than the present ratio found in earth's oceans >(~.5) and much lower than the total planetary ratio >(.3)which includes CO2. (Wilson & Rood 1994). The best >explanation for this is that the ratio is altered in a >planetary environment by some unknown mechanism >vis-a-vis interstellar space. Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially during photosynthesis (a guess), and then when it becomes O under influence of solar radiation, it can more easily attain escape velocity and leave altogether (Boltzmann tail). Similar reasoning also applies to stars where O forms. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 18:33:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT2UAlg027261; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:33:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT27JEY004688; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:07:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:07:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:07:06 EST Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1164766026" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5324 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1164766026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you again Keith. The 3 db point on the proton is about 1.2 Fermi's. The max extent is about 1.4 Fermi. http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarX iv.org%3Aphysics%2F0405118 _http://www.infim.ro/rrp/2005_57_4/17-795-799.pdf_ (http://www.infim.ro/rrp/2005_57_4/17-795-799.pdf) I don't understand where the .8 Fermi radius come from. Is it a half amplitude point? My universe is 1/2 yours because I state that the energy of a capacitor is Energy=1/2 CVV You use, energy = CVV where did the 1/2 go? I am baffled. Frank z -------------------------------1164766026 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you again Keith.  The 3 db point on the proton is about=20= 1.2=20 Fermi's.  The max extent is about 1.4 Fermi.
 
http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=3Dapplication%2Fpdf&identif= ier=3Doai%3AarXiv.org%3Aphysics%2F0405118=20

http://www.infim.r= o/rrp/2005_57_4/17-795-799.pdf=20
 
I don't understand where the .8 Fermi radius come from.  Is it a h= alf=20 amplitude point?
 
My universe is 1/2 yours because I state that the energy of a capacitor= =20 is
 
 Energy=3D1/2 CVV
 
You use,  energy =3D CVV
 
where did the 1/2 go?
 
I am baffled.
 
Frank z
 

 
 -------------------------------1164766026-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 19:38:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT3cKuU008085; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:38:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT3cJSM008053; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:38:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:38:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 5IC5xswVM1lcsnkJM.PCzR6H1Q8TrbRDgO9daIMzZagDLXEAG2NvqKENmfc9xFaE91ds7m2_zF3_PGfDuilNmEuxvUHM1RSWMrT.V5ALNv0WyEJZGS0y2XbL8fedSHfUyULsp2jYLW.hm.s- Message-ID: <456CFF0F.8060604 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:31:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Interesting if accurate: > > http://www.upi.com/Energy/view.php?StoryID=20061107-070924-5161r > > And the CO2phobes begin to scream in 5...4...3...2.... > > If indeed workable, we can begin 2 things almost immediately, if played > right: > > 1. Rapidly shut down U.S. reliance on foreign oil imports, ideally > ending them altogether. > 2. If it is so cheap, use the excess profits (well, some anyways, got to > give the companies some incentive) to begin constructing solar > facilities in the desert. This will take some pretty serious regulation, > but should be done. > > The oil shale, if this works as well as it seems, may be our last chance > to get off our collective rear ends and set up permanently renewable > energy sources, while having a nice buffer of cheap, profit-making > energy during the time of transition. I can see the oil companies (if > not involved in the oil shale conversion process) and the envirofascists Speaking as a CO2phobe and bonafide tree-hugger I object to being called an "envirofascist". Personally, I do indeed worry about stuff like "clathrate burps", and get a bad feeling about anything that will delay the day when we finally reduce CO2 emissions. On the other hand, wars are bad, too, and anything that helps reduce U.S. economic dependence on the Middle East mess must be a Good Thing -- and that surely includes oil shale development. "Hitting the wall" without any breathing space when the oil runs out seems like a recipe for a world catastrophe, and as you point out, oil shale could give the United States the breathing room it needs to get long-term solutions in place. One nit I would pick with your post is that, looking at overall process costs, including the strip-mining and subsequent enviro repair which is likely to be involved in getting the stuff out of the ground, I'm not sure it's really going to be "cheap" energy. But at this stage in the game, anything that qualifies as "available" energy is probably just fine -- after all, we've been living pretty well with $65/bbl oil (give or take a ten-spot), which doesn't exactly qualify as "cheap energy", either. > (this does not include all those who are environmentalists, just the > whackjobs) being the two greatest threats to doing this. > > --Kyle > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 20:12:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT4C6pM015933; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:12:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT4C1Jm015882; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:12:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=j693oVJfRpbaDs9HwP0vDJd/+MxlUwMMLci9S8WKqfYkM6exWNM7rXO8CNlxovC4r4/Jxgkt8ogibbX054/xU010s86NbCTfEpY8G+yR+7Aa7K0vFINeTEiiz4P0ooIKaNV9LIbhCIWMDa0bUr+e+uBBxGt8BZUJ2/oSiC632Q8= ; Message-ID: <20061129041158.24925.qmail web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <73ppm2tvj775u5aqvh84klvf06p95afq39 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially > during photosynthesis ... it can > more easily attain escape velocity Then the average ratio on earth should be the same as what has escaped (0.18 %) but it is NOT and in fact is far different - that is the whole point ! The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region is presumably what should have been the ratio found 4.5 billion years ago on earth, and that has been measured as 0.18%, however the actual planetary ratio is nearly twice that level (0.3 %) which indicates that somehow, in the earth environment, probably in the ionosphere, substantial 16O has been converted to 18O AFTER it got here from the sun ! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 21:51:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT5odgJ020033; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:51:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT5J1bW021918; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:19:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:19:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c71375$da060f00$aedc163f DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <456CFF0F.8060604@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:18:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel > Speaking as a CO2phobe and bonafide tree-hugger I object to being called > an "envirofascist". I notice you quoted but did not reply to or perhaps notice what I wrote towards the end. I will repeat it here. "(this does not include all those who are environmentalists, just the whackjobs)" If you would prefer me to explain that further, I will do so. Reading your response, I don't believe that you are what I would call an "envirofascist," I was mainly referring to those who stand in the way of every single slab of concrete that someone tries to pour, etc. Incidentally, I have objected to being called many things on this list, and my complaints fell on deaf ears. Try to understand my hearing loss. I just question the whole global warming business, as the way some environmentalists and groups thereof have handled the supposed problem makes it seem more a nice way to make a money and power grab than a real concern. In the 70's it was the impending ice age. Sorry, but I don't know what data to believe, who has doctored what to make it look the way they want it to look, etc. Case in point: last year, everyone screamed that we would have an even worse hurricane season this year because of global warming. This year, we had almost no hurricane season because of....global warming...triggering El Nino....gotta love the unfalsifiable. Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't. Who can tell with the buffoons who are running the show, on both sides of the issue. Some concerns I do have are the destruction of rain forests. That is stupid, they are being sawed down for no good reason, losing who knows what new potential pharmaceuticals. Pointless destruction of a natural laboratory is ridiculous, but we never hear about that anymore, no, its all the great big evil CO2. To go a bit more out on a limb here, I have a big problem with destruction of other species which may very well be near our level of intelligence capacity. I would not mind watching a Coast Guard cutter open fire on a whaling ship. But we don't hear about these things anymore. The real environmental issues have been pushed aside by the bleeding hearts who really just want to make money and justify their existence. > "Hitting the wall" without any breathing space when the oil runs out seems > like a recipe for a world catastrophe, and as you point out, oil shale > could give the United States the breathing room it needs to get long-term > solutions in place. Look at it this way: if we burn oil shale derived fuels for a while longer, to give us the time and free resources to do the 'solar thing' (which I am strongly in support of, as it has almost limitless potential) we will of course add some more CO2 to the air. So fine. If we do not do this, and just let things run out and have a big crash, there will be a lot more CO2 than anyone can imagine. And NO2, various other NOx's, and a nice big cloud of radioactive iodine, polonium, uranium, plutonium, beryllium, ad nauseam ad tedium. If we have a worldwide energy collapse, it will not be a slide back into medieval times like so many scream. It will in all likelyhood be a nuclear war. But of course, we are all good enlightened 21st century people, and we've got the noble blue-helmets of the UN to keep us civilized. Take away those civilized people's lights, and see how quickly the barbarism returns. > One nit I would pick with your post is that, looking at overall process > costs, including the strip-mining and subsequent enviro repair which is > likely to be involved in getting the stuff out of the ground, I'm not sure > it's really going to be "cheap" energy. But at this stage in the game, > anything that qualifies as "available" energy is probably just fine -- > after all, we've been living pretty well with $65/bbl oil (give or take a > ten-spot), which doesn't exactly qualify as "cheap energy", either. It is also interesting, I think, that no one seems to have pointed out that there is a large available workforce for manual labor to construct solar power collectors in the desert, which we do not have to pay anything at all: convicts. That kind of paying debt to society I think is better than letting them lounge around all day doing nothing, watching TV, etc. Make them work it off. If they work extra hard, reduce their time. When they get out, give them certification in whatever they worked on during prison labor, job references, etc. Then they can get a decent job and not have to go back to a life of crime. But who would do this? The liberals won't, because you can't force those poor darlings to work! Nor will the republicans do it either, because they wouldn't make enough money off of it. Hmmm. This is becoming a vicious circle. If we have prices that are so outrageous for energy that people are finally motivated to do something serious about it, then we are already at the point where our resources are strained to the point of ineffectiveness. If prices and resources are not strained, and we have a great surplus to solve the problem once and for all, then no one is motivated. This is about like two people walking in opposite directions in a hallway and both stepping from side to side in unison. Something has to give or we get nowhere. But what? You have to love economics: the entire future of the human race may be limited by something that doesn't even exist, except on paper. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 28 22:28:27 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAT6SA2F027611; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:28:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAT6S8Ct027580; Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:28:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:28:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KQErMa9nkvbTF2KJJ3LxJOV/17BrlQDTDb1QDBrToDM9YHNd3dHR5WW47pIXCi0aGUf0BOULwYJtnoF2QohQc/ggRsPLSMTrnQ+46WLEHi92oQPVXsCXYzVCjZsQbbEFwZtDwRv9/0k1TsWRtgoA0HcSXyD1rh+2Iy89mWLXU0Y= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:28:07 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: <118a01c71338$545cc250$6401a8c0 NuDell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <118a01c71338$545cc250$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well, i first heard about the stuff in my dec 1987 volume of national geographics for kids, but hey On 11/28/06, Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "leaking pen" > > > >i take it youve never heard of watermellon snow? > > > http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plaug98.htm > > > Ha! Garth told me that the closest Mike Myers ever got to science > was learning not to eat the yellow variety ... > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 04:48:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATCedx2028594; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:40:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATC7CIn031566; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:07:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:07:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K6BgX1cgzeSDq/aWabDPrjawnzgPS127BtRBE9ieAyPZXCxanh7B4ytrw6Gzv98N/VT4ENJ27RGeOMGmAVQZsZxHtSBdLzZRNNl3oorofJ1q6r6i86vU5brz98aiCitqXl4XQyoWgsKjy/cnmiiZ9pqaJmD6nD+e2Utt9yZY3TU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:07:05 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-Reply-To: <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/28/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Indeed it does. > > Hi Terry, for another opinion Stephen could have a look at the controversy you and I had about this some time ago, I had found what looked very much like a large error in input current measurement by analysing the Mosfet's voltage waveform and applying Ohm's low to it knowing it's ON resistance (search for Sprain in the list archive). Of course he may do so if he wishes; however, others have confirmed the measurements since your conjecture. In addition, the modification to a four magnet rotor showed the anticipated effect on COP. Face it mon ami, a magnetic gradient can do real work. Did you read the paper on spin consciousness that I posted on earlier? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 06:31:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATEU9Pv015590; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:30:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATEJaLT030271; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:19:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:19:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sstR7io+5N0Xc4pmEneHWDbSxqosJDvU2fcHA1hjGkTALRiBCLTn+3CF0uW4fuyM7YnaiLedk5AEn4WDrRmcF5n19ogCXaBEBqjg0uyQKAnvrhQROZE1SSNiYMQOS+iX8M0EJavEwdGBhBUiqq06F2+M6Q9N4lGWLDZNL3VekRU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:19:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/28/06, leaking pen wrote: > i take it youve never heard of watermellon snow? > > http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plaug98.htm This particular algae also causes a pink slime in swimming pools. With which I will no longer have to deal since I have divested myself of the house with the IG pool. I had always thought I wanted one until I had one. Take my advice, go to the Y. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 07:01:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATF0Iwu011501; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:01:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATExC1c008734; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:59:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:59:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20061129095220.03f53808 mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:59:01 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0XuCg.A.EIC._AabFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >This particular algae also causes a pink slime in swimming pools. >With which I will no longer have to deal since I have divested myself >of the house with the IG pool. > >I had always thought I wanted one until I had one. Take my advice, >go to the Y. That reminds me of my father's definition of a boat: a hole in the water into which you pour money. My grandfather lived in Freeport, Long Island, and he had a boat. He sold it to someone, and my dad delivered it on September 20, 1938. He recommended the guy put it in dry dock because the weather seemed iffy. The guy said no, and the next day the worst nor'easterner in history hit. There wasn't a stick left of the boat. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 07:27:42 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATFRLf2009069; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:27:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATFRHr0009004; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:27:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:27:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ci1UwCNGCX+4shsz6W/kyX3k9KGEdMqFqlroTmEXxky0BtUuwI4JpP/Jc1abSy3F3HBVXFV/912jV9/JQpAwz91WiIpfOrR3foTS8SJYbzfyepWuj0AJyIvvw7hY7uMzlgXWsSlxTKXy55PRZbHaIkPmZjhv8tEcsEhfn7djSeE= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:27:13 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well, i like my pool. but then, in arizona, its a little more of a neccessitya nd less a luxury On 11/29/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/28/06, leaking pen wrote: > > i take it youve never heard of watermellon snow? > > > > http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plaug98.htm > > This particular algae also causes a pink slime in swimming pools. > With which I will no longer have to deal since I have divested myself > of the house with the IG pool. > > I had always thought I wanted one until I had one. Take my advice, go to the Y. > > Terry > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 10:59:58 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATIoNhY031346; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:53:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATIWEgU012517; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:32:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:32:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:26:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kATIW7sv012418 Resent-Message-ID: <_h8qT.A.HDD.sIdbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Sprain motor Status: RO X-Status: Terry wrote: > ... others have confirmed > the measurements since your conjecture. Hi Terry, have the splendid overunity COPs you mentioned in recent posts been confirmed by the same expert who measured a COP of 0.25 on an earlier version? (*) Michel (*) It was Arkansas Power Electronics International, Inc. I just dug out their emilie_analysis_coil2_webversion.pdf report you pointed us to earlier this year, here is what it said: ------- This report outlines the test results of the new coil and core and illustrates comparisons to the original coil and core when appropriate. Overall, there is a measured improvement in performance when compared to the first coil and core, but the efficiency range of ~25% is still low in comparison with industry electric motors. ------ Didn't Sprain already think he had overunity when he bought that analysis in 2002 BTW? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn > On 11/28/06, Michel Jullian wrote: >> > Indeed it does. >> >> Hi Terry, for another opinion Stephen could have a look at the controversy you and I had about this some time ago, I had found what looked very much like a large error in input current measurement by analysing the Mosfet's voltage waveform and applying Ohm's low to it knowing it's ON resistance (search for Sprain in the list archive). > > Of course he may do so if he wishes; however, others have confirmed > the measurements since your conjecture. In addition, the modification > to a four magnet rotor showed the anticipated effect on COP. Face it > mon ami, a magnetic gradient can do real work. > > Did you read the paper on spin consciousness that I posted on earlier? > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 13:12:22 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATLCGfu014289; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:12:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATLCC0X014245; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hidden Wealth Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:11:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <73ppm2tvj775u5aqvh84klvf06p95afq39 4ax.com> <20061129041158.24925.qmail@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061129041158.24925.qmail web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [147.10.64.156] using ID rvanspaa bigpond.net.au at Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:11:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kATLC4oi014079 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:58 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] > >--- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Same explanation. The 16O is produced preferentially >> during photosynthesis ... it can >> more easily attain escape velocity > >Then the average ratio on earth should be the same as >what has escaped (0.18 %) How can you read and understand what I wrote, then come to exactly the opposite conclusion, based on it? What I said was that 16O preferentially escapes from massive bodies, leaving a higher concentration of 18O behind. However if this were the case, then one might expect the O in rocks (particularly the quartzes) to be nearer the interstellar ratio as this O is less likely to take part in atmospheric exchange. The O taking part in atmospheric exchange would primarily be in the air and water of the Earth. IOW the "ratio on Earth" would depend on who measured it, and exactly where they got the O from that they measured. BTW Google revealed a few interesting things: http://presolar.wustl.edu/~fjs/publications/p062abs.html http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/259/5102/1733 http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1995/94JA02936.shtml http://astro.nmsu.edu/~bwebber/high.html http://isotope.web.psi.ch/back.htm etc. >but it is NOT and in fact is >far different - that is the whole point ! > >The 18O/16O ratio in the interstellar region is >presumably what should have been the ratio found 4.5 >billion years ago on earth, and that has been measured >as 0.18%, however the actual planetary ratio is nearly > twice that level (0.3 %) which indicates that >somehow, in the earth environment, probably in the >ionosphere, substantial 16O has been converted to 18O >AFTER it got here from the sun ! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 13:58:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATLoc02017762; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:57:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATLMhmj022511; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:22:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:22:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:36:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, That first link was most interesting, thanks kindly. I will need to study a bit more about what is meant by the Zemach radius and the magnetic radius. I do think that the whole concept of a "billiard ball" particle falls apart on close inspection, rather like the old Bohr model. Yet, we can still use these lumped parameter analysis to good effect. As regards the capacity, I should point out that my experience with this is pretty much all on the macro scale. Capacity is a geometric phenomena, if you can define the shape of the object and it's relation to the ground plane, and you know the permittivity of the medium in between, you can determine the capacity. As Fred pointed out in his post, in the case of the electron the radius is determined by the following equation. r = q^2/[4(pi)eo* mc^2] and you can see the energy term is "hidden" in there. But no matter how we determine the radius, we still end up with something in units of length. Now, it is an experimentally known fact ( hey, I designed plenty of HV capacitors using this formula, so it works for me at least ) that the capacity of a sphere in space is given by the following equ. C = 4*pi*e0*r So given those two things, that was my result. It confuses me as well as to how we end up with different numbers. I think we can both agree that the energy in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V^2. But as I said I'm not using that relationship at all to calculate my capacity, it being a purely geometric property. Perhaps what all this is really saying is that, if we use your derivation from energy considerations, that the resulting shape in not spherical? In which case, I would need to use some other formula to calculate the capacity... I don't know. If I get some free time I'll look over your derivation more closely, and see if I get any insights. K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:07 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: 1.568 x 10 -25 Farads Thank you again Keith. The 3 db point on the proton is about 1.2 Fermi's. The max extent is about 1.4 Fermi. http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Aphysics%2F0405118 http://www.infim.ro/rrp/2005_57_4/17-795-799.pdf I don't understand where the .8 Fermi radius come from. Is it a half amplitude point? My universe is 1/2 yours because I state that the energy of a capacitor is Energy=1/2 CVV You use, energy = CVV where did the 1/2 go? I am baffled. Frank z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 15:22:53 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATNKarW030198; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:22:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATMVIFK031561; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:31:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O2ZyqDSebqKVBIJp/L0ukXSxcRTdLAiKIKDA2SaQ3iGBaE8/1cT4uGTUMNe14JWZXKB3aZHF63c86W3sdJ8neR2odh2zRZeLKVk6gtCmkCa7WR9N2A8gJH6fFk2vcZsdWhL+tLV5FHTcENtfkBsXD99hgSomNOQvbwyu2JYHJJg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:23:59 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor In-Reply-To: <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/29/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > Terry wrote: > > > ... others have confirmed > > the measurements since your conjecture. > > Hi Terry, have the splendid overunity COPs you mentioned in recent posts been confirmed by the same expert who measured a COP of 0.25 on an earlier version? No. A potential licensee visited recently and brought his technical advisor who had a BSEE and a PhD in physics. He first said that the idea was "hogwash" and asked if he could perform his own measurements. Of course, Paul consented. After several minutes of taking measurements, the good doktor placed his finger on the electromagnet and found it cool. He then placed his finger on the light bulb being used as a load and burned his finger. Paul said the man had a moment of what appeared to be cognitive dissonance; then, he went and whispered in the ear of the licensee. At that point the licensee told the President of M Int'l that they needed to go offsite and talk. > Didn't Sprain already think he had overunity when he bought that analysis in 2002 BTW? No. There have been 16 iterations of the Magmo. He did not claim OU until the spring of this year. Just be patient. The new magnet is under construction. It is segmented in such a way that the torque will be linear instead of ramped sinusoidal as shown in the test you referenced. The sinusoidal torque is due to the use of rectangular magnets. The simulations by the magnet manufacturer show a near linear torque curve. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 15:37:04 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATNKarY030198; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:22:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATMSjnu029289; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:28:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:28:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MXSEPZDiFkrUHgC/xXcp/Afx5euNWlXWWKsyY4Wh8CY0Jr5B3Wd6JkPKHp8FLJtrS98b0TzbFSFy3U6cQtMaogUthim1/Y1P2hN57lZbG1RPoIJTr6L9MD5NLTBVduNod4oMiRaLelRbjBQtGHnAQkUyTek6KracHp7D9WbHDFU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:28:40 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > well, i like my pool. but then, in arizona, its a little more of a > neccessitya nd less a luxury Yes, er, well, I live downwind from several coal fired gen plants. I don't have a problem until late July or August. At that time, the acid rain falls. If you miss adjusting the total alkalinity just one day, you have an algae bloom. You ever have an algae bloom? Very expensive and time consuming. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 15:47:24 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATNl0Eh029581; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:47:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATNkwuB029555; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:46:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:46:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0bc301c71410$a444c0f0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:46:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kATNksGD029515 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor > On 11/29/06, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Terry wrote: >> >> > ... others have confirmed >> > the measurements since your conjecture. >> >> Hi Terry, have the splendid overunity COPs you mentioned in recent posts been confirmed by the same expert who measured a COP of 0.25 on an earlier version? > > No. A potential licensee visited recently and brought his technical > advisor who had a BSEE and a PhD in physics. He first said that the > idea was "hogwash" and asked if he could perform his own measurements. > Of course, Paul consented. > > After several minutes of taking measurements, the good doktor placed > his finger on the electromagnet and found it cool. He then placed his > finger on the light bulb being used as a load and burned his finger. What's the implication of the temp difference? Anyway, the guy can have a BSEE and a PhD in physics and can still have made gross errors in his measurements, especially if he's had only a few minutes to perform them. What did he measure and with what instruments, and what was his conclusion? > Paul said the man had a moment of what appeared to be cognitive > dissonance; then, he went and whispered in the ear of the licensee. > At that point the licensee told the President of M Int'l that they > needed to go offsite and talk. > >> Didn't Sprain already think he had overunity when he bought that analysis in 2002 BTW? > > No. There have been 16 iterations of the Magmo. He did not claim OU > until the spring of this year. Ah? Then why did he spend money for that analysis, couldn't he measure the 0.25 COP himself at the time? Anyway Sprain's own recent measurements, which I saw in June of this year and which were supposed to support his OU claims, pointed to a COP of the same order as the 2002 value (well below unity) once I had corrected the current for the large error factor I found. > Just be patient. The new magnet is under construction. It is > segmented in such a way that the torque will be linear instead of > ramped sinusoidal as shown in the test you referenced. The sinusoidal > torque is due to the use of rectangular magnets. The simulations by > the magnet manufacturer show a near linear torque curve. Well, whether linear or sinusoidal, I view this device more and more as a perfectly ordinary electric motor so I won't hold my breath until it becomes overunity. However I can see you're an indefectible believer so I'll wish you the best of lucks :) Michel > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 15:50:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kATNo3Ac032265; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:50:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kATNjcKj028674; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:45:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:45:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oR0eHa7kdsz9yIVgPX85VOxiKhznHHcYKHhyh3t21xZAm3ebj9z5XxDsrT+Ld2L21YGGGm7RfqYJl1ITgIaF3p7JzTRF5R4sG+56iTWLSKltUiVJIYvXUwi/iOLCcp4xj3RgaVvJw+IN3laEz4jUVltFqaEA5MC4LJF011S6EaE= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:45:37 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: half a gallon of the 60 percent blue bottle of green yellow black algaecide with clarifier, enough of acid or base to bring to normative, and enough chlorine shock to bring your ppm up to 4. then, brush the dead algae every couple of hours, vaccuum, and backwash. easy peasey lemon squeezy. (dealt with several this summer. massvie amounts of trees plus blowing dust. kills the chlorine. for acid rain, try a salt water chlorinator. adds some base, is more self stabilized. ) On 11/29/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > > well, i like my pool. but then, in arizona, its a little more of a > > neccessitya nd less a luxury > > Yes, er, well, I live downwind from several coal fired gen plants. I > don't have a problem until late July or August. At that time, the > acid rain falls. If you miss adjusting the total alkalinity just one > day, you have an algae bloom. > > You ever have an algae bloom? Very expensive and time consuming. > > Terry > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 23:04:46 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAU74W2P006362; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:04:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAU74STt006320; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:04:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:04:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=JQmGYB2SEP++h+okpWEYCcNPvu3TNsZWuk/T2q0vjl5JQFZlEjXrLZw0oySs0FCmL3tg+ObFKDcNkIdrrg73SPa9vKTtSGJOPzcP6vzd5LA5QS237z4tsrxxo0kmbkPDCA1/EJrZEjIsK9IEIvQzgFcVKQdFj53IeHDpsNKAzHk= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611292304r5e9f957at9160deeb8d94f32b mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:04:24 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3880_6791156.1164870264159" Resent-Message-ID: <1QqY0.A.biB.7JobFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: does centripetal vortex create a "free electron" in vortexed water? Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3880_6791156.1164870264159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello, does anyone have any data as to how vortexing could create a free electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of water? came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man about water's energy levels and he asked if my vortexeralso frees up an electron in the water) "The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate what happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. Coming out of the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It contains an extra electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water that creates this structure. But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as we can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical charge." this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm but honestly.. anyone have any more leads? -- ++++ http://www.lackluster.org/ http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_3880_6791156.1164870264159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello, does anyone have any data  as to how vortexing could create a free electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of water?


came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man  about water's energy levels  and  he asked if  my  vortexeralso frees up an electron  in the water)
"The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate what happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. Coming out of the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It contains an extra electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water that creates this structure.

But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as we can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical charge."
this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm

but honestly.. anyone have any more leads?



--
++++
http://www.lackluster.org/
http://www.lackluster.org/shop/ ------=_Part_3880_6791156.1164870264159-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 23:07:32 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAU77C0S008280; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:07:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAU779jP008254; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:07:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:07:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:07:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:37:45 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> Obviously....but then again >> maybe free electrons and protons have no weight. > [snip] > The Solar corona (no to mention the Sun itself) is largely free electrons and > protons, yet they are kept "attached" to the Sun by their weight....or are > they > kept there by their electric field...or are they the same thing? :) > > When a charged particle tries to leave a neutral plasma, it leaves behind a > particle of the opposite charge. That results in an attractive force between > the > plasma and the charged particle. If this force is summed over all particles, > do > we end up with "gravity"? (Just a "what if" - please all feel free to pounce > at > once. ;) > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Here is another speculation: Maybe only neutrons have gravity. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 23:47:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAU7leiG007191; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:47:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAU7ldBn007165; Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:47:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:47:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:37:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge In-reply-to: <410-220061162594058446 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_cdHXhRryr7uvHOOWe1gvpA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_cdHXhRryr7uvHOOWe1gvpA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Yes that is true, but I am positing a slight weight loss when travelling horizontally and while remaining in contact with the ground. The assertion that weight is zero at a horizontal speed of 17,000 mph was computed with standard physics. However, after some initial efforts to quantity my concept of weight, I would say weight will approach zero asymptotically with increasing horizontal speed, but will never actually equal zero. (With speed on the x-axis and weight on the y-axis the curve is bell-shaped). Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: No need to do 17,000 mph to get into weightlessness, a well designed speed bump will do it for you (parabolic trajectory) at 30 mph more or less. Personally I prefer electro-dynamic braking better than treadmills built into the highway to save gas and maintenance costs, Harry. Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlessness " So clearly it is possible to experience zero-g without going into space. Any aircraft can do this by pushing it over into a parabolic arc. Even any car that hits a bump fast enough to leave the ground will experience zero-g for the time that the wheels are not in contact with the road." --Boundary_(ID_cdHXhRryr7uvHOOWe1gvpA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Re:  weight and charge
Yes that is true, but I am positing a slight weight loss when
travelling horizontally and while remaining in contact with
the ground.

The assertion that weight is zero at a horizontal speed of 17,000 mph
was computed with standard physics.

However, after some initial efforts to quantity my concept of weight, I would
say weight will approach zero asymptotically with increasing horizontal
speed, but will never actually equal zero. (With speed on the x-axis and weight
on the y-axis the curve is bell-shaped).

Harry


Frederick Sparber wrote:

No need to do 17,000 mph to get into weightlessness,
a well designed speed bump will do  it for you (parabolic trajectory) at 30 mph
more or less.

Personally I prefer electro-dynamic braking better than treadmills built into
the highway to save gas and maintenance costs, Harry.

Fred

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlessness

" So clearly it is possible to experience zero-g without going into space. Any aircraft can do this by pushing it over into a parabolic arc. Even any car that hits a bump fast enough to leave the ground will experience zero-g for the time that the wheels are not in contact with the road."


--Boundary_(ID_cdHXhRryr7uvHOOWe1gvpA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 03:48:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUBm8fq029394; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:48:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUBm5st029348; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:48:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0c7301c71475$613bd9f0$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:47:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAUBm1UN029274 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge > > Yes that is true, but I am positing a slight weight loss when > travelling horizontally and while remaining in contact with > the ground. > > The assertion that weight is zero at a horizontal speed of 17,000 mph > was computed with standard physics. Let's see, F=ma Weight mg = m*v^2/r (mass times centripetal acceleration) => v=Sqrt(rg)=Sqrt(6.4E6m*9.8ms^-2) =7920 m/s =7920/1609*3600=17700mph, that's about right > > However, after some initial efforts to quantity my concept of weight, I > would > say weight will approach zero asymptotically with increasing horizontal > speed, but will never actually equal zero. (With speed on the x-axis and > weight > on the y-axis the curve is bell-shaped). I disagree, apparent weight can become negative. Any plane traveling faster than 17,000 mph would have to have it's seats on the ceiling :) Michel > > Harry > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > No need to do 17,000 mph to get into weightlessness, > a well designed speed bump will do it for you (parabolic trajectory) at 30 > mph > more or less. > > Personally I prefer electro-dynamic braking better than treadmills built > into > the highway to save gas and maintenance costs, Harry. > > Fred > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlessness > > " So clearly it is possible to experience zero-g without going into space. > Any aircraft can do this by pushing it over into a parabolic arc. Even any > car that hits a bump fast enough to leave the ground will experience zero-g > for the time that the wheels are not in contact with the road." > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 03:58:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUBwbJt005417; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:58:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUBwZmL005394; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:58:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:58:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tBxKDobrb8HDrkgJ0r9bTMxoyxrLX4q58q9GhJOPWUZACwN7eE3NyUfdc+B50TL/vFcBYqUskaizqaZSING/D69elBMbT10nXVZYR7n66UKDxcbm6/tq0SkpR2oudWRbxWiN/8K3+1hEZkcwpXuGimlehZQ3GO8ko0NXoi6s+OY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 06:58:32 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor In-Reply-To: <0bc301c71410$a444c0f0$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0 zothan> <0bc301c71410$a444c0f0$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <7s_pvC.A.IUB.qdsbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/29/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > Well, whether linear or sinusoidal, I view this device more and more as a perfectly ordinary electric motor so I won't hold my breath until it becomes overunity. Wise choice. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 04:30:25 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUCU48e003322; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:30:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUCN4vK030446; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:23:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:23:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IMWgL30LO30h99YEmOxRxnvLVGdZzBKbU+kuKXyKBmMkdRBBPFjP4jKR5f6XNHzP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061143012224119 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:22:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94086a7d8fd632caac4d3564cc2b1fbf0da350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum Between Concentric Spheres-Cylinders Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interesting contrast between the NASA Asymmetrical Capacitor Thruster (ACT) and Doyle Buehler's symmetrical capacitor or single-plate results. Note that the ACT experiments used rotation about a vertical axis as opposed to Buehler's vertical force experiments. It isn't surprising that NASA' null results in hard vacuum (except for one event where "the device moved about 1/8th turn"). http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf Buehler's calculation of 2 Joule per Newton force extrapolates to about 20 BTU per ton of "Polarized Vacuum" lift at the earth's surface, based on the interrelated field intensity- energy density of zero net charged spherical-cylindrical capacitor craft: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html High voltage (AC or DC) applied to TV "twin lead" or 75 ohm coaxial cable (a cylindrical capacitor with a dielectric) sitting on a precision scale will probably show some weight change even in air. OTOH. in a metal hard-vacuum chamber, one would need to weigh the chamber too, since the effect should be similar to the inside of a Van De Graaff Sphere or Faraday's "Ice Pail" where the "charge" is transferred to the outside surface. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Interesting contrast between the NASA Asymmetrical Capacitor Thruster (ACT)
and Doyle Buehler's symmetrical capacitor or single-plate results.
Note that the ACT experiments used rotation about a vertical axis as opposed to
Buehler's vertical force experiments.
It isn't surprising that NASA' null results in hard vacuum (except for one
event where "the device moved about 1/8th turn").
 
 
 
Buehler's calculation of 2 Joule per Newton force extrapolates
to about 20 BTU per ton of "Polarized Vacuum" lift at the
earth's surface, based on the interrelated field intensity- energy density
of zero net charged spherical-cylindrical capacitor craft:
 
 
 
High voltage (AC or DC) applied to TV "twin lead" or
75 ohm coaxial cable (a cylindrical capacitor with a dielectric) 
sitting on a precision scale will probably show some weight change even in air.
 
OTOH. in a metal hard-vacuum chamber, one would need
to weigh the chamber too, since the effect should be similar
to the inside of a Van De Graaff Sphere or Faraday's "Ice Pail"
where the "charge" is transferred to the outside surface.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 04:30:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUCKJgr026050; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:20:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUC1s38008918; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:01:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:01:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sq2wmQBbEUroeLPbVMPwjGa/bhmbMuCW0+ja1Ao4uvi08kB08ipHkAV1H2yKxbyNQPJmgUl7qispSHmSyIrZcJtPeoH5tr7rJNwddT1bdLa13rT2jiNNickHmVzhfOZ3IXTkgIVLUv5zPiQw3yvK2PQmn9ynfd2gFwLs6CHncyE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:01:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > then, > brush the dead algae every couple of hours, vaccuum, and backwash. > easy peasey lemon squeezy. Well, my experience has been that a sand filter will not catch the small particulates of the algae unless you let it precipitate and waste while vacuuming. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 04:40:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUCeDN3011629; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:40:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUCe6x1011556; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:40:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KZKhX2pGJ5+4siw+k29gvWLXubV9JEK9XSYc/96zs5ynMf9icDxs/46Ccb6hbsF/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220061143012394784 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:39:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e2339be6db8f002cac13836bc3fde358350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.211 Resent-Message-ID: <31V_gB.A.V0C.kEtbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just run the algae-water through gear wringers the squeezed out oil and "husks" will float to the top where you can skim it off. In the 70s there was a food-grade algae(high protein dietary supplement for export to Asia) setup nearby at the NM Ag experiment farm, that used centrifugal separation-drying. Too energy intensive? Fred Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 11/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > > > then, > > brush the dead algae every couple of hours, vaccuum, and backwash. > > easy peasey lemon squeezy. > > Well, my experience has been that a sand filter will not catch the > small particulates of the algae unless you let it precipitate and > waste while vacuuming. > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 05:00:37 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUD0DhJ031614; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:00:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUCZ2ub007711; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:35:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0c8101c71478$8dbf3d20$3800a8c0 zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <0bc301c71410$a444c0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:10:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAUCYtGF007623 Resent-Message-ID: <7QQp0.A.P4B.0_sbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah, so you're admitting the current version is not OU. Gotcha ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor > On 11/29/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Well, whether linear or sinusoidal, I view this device more and more as a perfectly ordinary electric motor so I won't hold my breath until it becomes overunity. > > Wise choice. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 07:35:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUFUAmg011636; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:34:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUFMkGA005990; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:22:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:22:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: jVKqJcEVM1ktv7Slx74tk.BRtpJj1ob3.E6CLdUPExrwIV9u5i9FVouqc0M1hNHi5CzN20VkedFu6mnZzt4B7jNGp1R08yD6QsoipdxP6QVFE76U2ofTLdVI9D0P.pWY2yD0rN0Q3a2f05k- Message-ID: <456EF73B.6010907 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:22:35 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel References: <000501c710a6$1618ad40$28d8163f DFBGQZ91> <456CFF0F.8060604@pobox.com> <000401c71375$da060f00$aedc163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000401c71375$da060f00$aedc163f DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil shale research in Israel > > >> Speaking as a CO2phobe and bonafide tree-hugger I object to being >> called an "envirofascist". > > I notice you quoted but did not reply to or perhaps notice what I wrote > towards the end. I will repeat it here. > > "(this does not include all those who are environmentalists, just the > whackjobs)" > > If you would prefer me to explain that further, Really, no problem -- I wasn't actually offended, and I did see the disclaimer! I just couldn't resist responding, and taking your words kind of at their "extreme worst". Just about all regular posters on Vortex share an interest in alternative energy sources. Beyond that, our politics are all over the map; if I got all bent out of shape every time somebody posted a message whose politics I disagreed with I'd have to give up and become a hermit. You're bugged by the high price of gasoline; I'm bugged by the low price of gasoline. But we'd both be thrilled to see a new energy source come along which would render all arguments about gasoline prices moot! I understand the points you've made in previous posts, and in fact I agree wholeheartedly that any law which attempts to put an outright _ban_ on any sort of vehicle in a misguided attempt to reduce gasoline consumption or emissions is unlikely to work well and very likely to backfire. The wonderful "bad example" of the CAFE law and the consequent SUV boom is always helpful in understanding what's wrong with top-down ham-handed regulation of the market. An aside on carburetors: I've had several carbureted cars, and two fuel-injected cars (and one diesel, but let's just kind of forget the diesel). Every one of the carbureted cars had occasional choke problems and had to be warmed up before it could be driven effectively on bitter mornings, and most of them had incurable "hesitation" issues. ("incurable" => carburetor adjusting, cleaning, and/or rebuilding helped only minimally.) (The '66 Lincoln with the huge 4-barrel "toilet" was the only one that never hesitated, as it happens...) In contrast, the injected cars act like it's midsummer's day, all year round. F-I may or may not be cleaner, and in fact on a cold morning I suspect it's dirtier (when it's ten below out and the car starts and runs fine instantly there's no way I'll believe it's burning a 14:1 mix, and no emission test checks behavior of a "cold engine") -- but none the less, carburetors are the pits. > I will do so. Reading > your response, I don't believe that you are what I would call an > "envirofascist," I was mainly referring to those who stand in the way of > every single slab of concrete that someone tries to pour, etc. > Incidentally, I have objected to being called many things on this list, > and my complaints fell on deaf ears. Try to understand my hearing loss. > > I just question the whole global warming business, as the way some > environmentalists and groups thereof have handled the supposed problem > makes it seem more a nice way to make a money and power grab than a real > concern. In the 70's it was the impending ice age. Sorry, but I don't > know what data to believe, who has doctored what to make it look the way > they want it to look, etc. I don't buy the analogy with "prior bad research" (the 1970's ice age), nor the vague hints that it's all a conspiracy. And at this point, I don't have problems "knowing what data to believe", because there's so much consistent data available. I've read enough about global warming, in scientific journals as well as more casual sources, to be absolutely convinced it's real. The only remaining question is how bad, how soon. In general, the farther from the equator you get the better accepted it is. In the southern U.S. the effects are not particularly apparent. But in the far north, things are rapidly turning into a mess. In Canada there's no question at all about its reality, and no doubts are ever expressed about that by anyone (conservative or liberal); rather, the issue is what to do about it. This is a big deal, because the Northwest Passage is opening up, apparently faster than anyone expected, and up here that's a political hot potato. The current conservative government is determined to keep Canadian sovereignty over it, but that may involve a direct conflict with the United States. Note well: The current Canadian conservative government, pals with Bush, fellow travelers with the U.S. neocon movement, is seriously concerned about the best political response to the consequences of global warming, and has accused the liberals of failing to act in this area. There's /no/ right-wing denial of GW in these parts! The issue of how much of the change was caused by humans versus something else can still be argued. I happen to think it's clearly of human origin, but the case isn't as open-and-shut as it is on the "existence" issue. The climate observatory which was canceled last year would have helped in resolving some of the remaining open questions. > Case in point: last year, everyone screamed > that we would have an even worse hurricane season Those that did so don't understand statistics and probability. Long term trends can be detected, and to a lesser extent predicted. Short term climate behavior is extremely hard to predict. I can say with certainty that you'll die of old age some time in the next 100 years (unless something else gets you first). I can't say with certainty that next year this time, you'll feel worse than you do this year, because you'll be older. You might start exercising and lose weight and feel _better_ next year than this. But that doesn't cancel the long-term trend, nor change the final outcome! Does that make sense? Based on what I've read I can say with certainty that things have been getting warmer, and, with someone less certainty, I can say I expect them to continue to get warmer. I _CAN'T_ say with any assurance at all that next month, or even next year, will be any particular temperature. From what I've read, I also think it's overstating our knowledge by a lot to claim that global warming _is_ the cause of the recent bad hurricane seasons. There are models which predict that GW _should_ cause more intense hurricanes, but climate modeling is difficult and error-prone. I think it's likely that the apparent trend toward more intense weather is real, I think it's likely that, _in_ _general_ storms will get more intense and more frequent, but I sure don't think that's been proved, and I CERTAINLY don't think you can say "2007 is going to be real bad 'cause of global warming!", any more than you can say "On April 23 of next year a hurricane will make landfall in Baton Rouge!". Short-term weather is much too variable and too unpredictable for that. > this year because of > global warming. This year, we had almost no hurricane season because > of....global warming...triggering El Nino....gotta love the > unfalsifiable. Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't. Who can tell with the > buffoons who are running the show, on both sides of the issue. Now El Nino is an interesting one. I've looked over the graphs of El Nino events, and it looks to me like they've been getting more frequent and lasting longer over the past century. It's quite possible that the warming we've already had is making El Nino events come more often and stay longer. But I don't think that's anywhere near provable, and since El Nino is a manifestation of a chaotic system with what may be several "strange attractors", it's likely to remain very hard to predict: such systems tend to flip-flop randomly from one state to another. > Some concerns I do have are the destruction of rain forests. That is > stupid, they are being sawed down for no good reason, losing who knows > what new potential pharmaceuticals. Pointless destruction of a natural > laboratory is ridiculous, but we never hear about that anymore, no, its > all the great big evil CO2. Who never hears about that? I don't watch television, so I wouldn't know what most people hear about, but in other news sources we sure do hear about that. It also ties in with the CO2 issue, in that much of the rainforest land which is cleared is BURNED. The tropics are on fire, right now, even as we argue about the arrangement of the deck chairs on this great Titan of a ship... > To go a bit more out on a limb here, I have a big problem with > destruction of other species which may very well be near our level of > intelligence capacity. I would not mind watching a Coast Guard cutter > open fire on a whaling ship. But we don't hear about these things > anymore. Say what??? I hear about them all the time. You need to stay in better touch with us envirowhackos! Join Sea Shepherd if you want to stay on top of the whaling issues. If the Coast Guard won't open fire on 'em, well, Sea Shepherd isn't always so squeamish. And unlike Greenpeace, their ships go armed. (AFAIK Sea Shepherd hasn't yet been blacklisted as a terrorist organization; God only knows why not.) (But don't join Elf, even if you can find a mailing address for them, or you'll be in big trouble with Uncle...) > The real environmental issues have been pushed aside by the > bleeding hearts who really just want to make money and justify their > existence. I _beg_ your pardon. I think I'm technically a bleeding heart, and my biggest donations go to Sea Shepherd, which is trying to save the whales, and World Wildlife Fund, which is trying to save land (you know, like rainforests and stuff). >> "Hitting the wall" without any breathing space when the oil runs out >> seems like a recipe for a world catastrophe, and as you point out, oil >> shale could give the United States the breathing room it needs to get >> long-term solutions in place. > > Look at it this way: if we burn oil shale derived fuels for a while > longer, to give us the time and free resources to do the 'solar thing' > (which I am strongly in support of, as it has almost limitless > potential) we will of course add some more CO2 to the air. So fine. > > If we do not do this, and just let things run out and have a big crash, > there will be a lot more CO2 than anyone can imagine. And NO2, various > other NOx's, and a nice big cloud of radioactive iodine, polonium, > uranium, plutonium, beryllium, ad nauseam ad tedium. Right, when the U.S. fights WWIII with China. > If we have a > worldwide energy collapse, it will not be a slide back into medieval > times like so many scream. It will in all likelyhood be a nuclear war. > But of course, we are all good enlightened 21st century people, and > we've got the noble blue-helmets of the UN to keep us civilized. First, the U.N. isn't well enough funded to really hold major combatants apart if they really want to rip each other to shreds. Second, the U.N. forces are a mishmosh of forces from various nations which almost never play together except on a real battlefield, so, for example, compared to NATO, they're generally less well trained and effective, even disproportionate to the minimal funding they have. Third, the United States is one of the major kingpins in the UN, and if the U.S. wants to get into a war with somebody the UN is not going to stand in their way. > Take > away those civilized people's lights, and see how quickly the barbarism > returns. > >> One nit I would pick with your post is that, looking at overall >> process costs, including the strip-mining and subsequent enviro repair >> which is likely to be involved in getting the stuff out of the ground, >> I'm not sure it's really going to be "cheap" energy. But at this >> stage in the game, anything that qualifies as "available" energy is >> probably just fine -- after all, we've been living pretty well with >> $65/bbl oil (give or take a ten-spot), which doesn't exactly qualify >> as "cheap energy", either. > > It is also interesting, I think, that no one seems to have pointed out > that there is a large available workforce for manual labor to construct > solar power collectors in the desert, which we do not have to pay > anything at all: convicts. A lot of people call that kind of thing "slave labor" and don't like it. Politically it's likely to be very hard to pull off. Convicts used to make all the license plates in Pennsylvania; I don't know if they still do. I know I've heard objections to that system. > That kind of paying debt to society I think > is better than letting them lounge around all day doing nothing, > watching TV, etc. Make them work it off. In general, working (not to excess) can be beneficial to people. Sitting around being bored and watching TV is _never_ beneficial. > If they work extra hard, reduce > their time. When they get out, give them certification in whatever they > worked on during prison labor, job references, etc. Then they can get a > decent job and not have to go back to a life of crime. But who would do > this? The liberals won't, because you can't force those poor darlings to > work! Nor will the republicans do it either, because they wouldn't make > enough money off of it. And besides it might not be "punishing" enough. Retribution, that's the name of the game here -- what kind of retribution is it to give someone free job training and experience to put on their resumes?? > Hmmm. This is becoming a vicious circle. If we have prices that are so > outrageous for energy that people are finally motivated to do something > serious about it, then we are already at the point where our resources > are strained to the point of ineffectiveness. If prices and resources > are not strained, and we have a great surplus to solve the problem once > and for all, then no one is motivated. This is about like two people > walking in opposite directions in a hallway and both stepping from side > to side in unison. Something has to give or we get nowhere. But what? You have said it well here. The problem I have with oil shale providing "breathing room", which I didnt' voice earlier, is that the United States has _already_ had more than enough breathing room to do something and has frittered it away. The oil shock of the 70's should have led to something, but instead, as soon as prices came down again, all effort was apparently directed at figuring out how to evade what few weak laws had been put on the books during the brief crisis. In what seemed like a few months people had completely forgotten that the 55 MPH speed limit was put in to save oil, _NOT_ to "save lives" (which it may never have done anyway if you look at all the ramifications of the law changes). So, if oil shale starts coming out of the ground, and U.S. gas prices drop as a result, who's to say the good folks in the heartland won't all just breath a sigh of relief and go back to business as usual, only to be blindsided yet again in 2025? Cheney and his pals certainly have known about "peak oil" for at least a decade, more likely 2 decades, but what have they done about it? Nuthin' useful, that's for sure. > > You have to love economics: the entire future of the human race may be > limited by something that doesn't even exist, except on paper. > > --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 08:10:59 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUGAB4s007470; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:10:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUFwg3M025059; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:58:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: zDomF3YVM1lFneUR2VwKLcregAgTfGAsomlGzEE9lJ7geSPNUspA71X6Zh5HxxBRU_r_iXaSQWFWHc41l5CRU4sG.6Tq6iqJPe2PVK3Z7eENRt3XKKOIbA-- Message-ID: <456EFFAD.1010309 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:58:37 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3yFb_.A.XHG.x-vbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >> Indeed it does. > > Hi Terry, for another opinion Stephen could have a look at the > controversy you and I had about this some time ago, I had found what > looked very much like a large error in input current measurement by > analysing the Mosfet's voltage waveform and applying Ohm's low to it > knowing it's ON resistance (search for Sprain in the list archive). I've recused myself from all technical debates on the reality or possibility of OU magnetic motors until I come up with a good answer to the following question: When an electron is accelerated in a nonuniform magnetic field due to the electron's own (permanent) magnetic dipole, where does the energy come from? Once I've got an answer to that one I'll be a lot happier about barking at magmos again. :-) Been busy with other stuff for the past many moons and haven't pursued it, tho. My comments on Steorn, you may have noticed, were all based on the company's externally visible behavior, not on the feasibility of their approach... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 08:34:03 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUFldTX008367; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:47:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUFlZPZ008302; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:47:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:47:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gjLK6ytpwuIIWmEQoThhk0e4BFxx7PCYUAUf8ds3ObNrS8tFAWmU9tfo7TGy2hK5ExcqyB6u9RSeOrkPll7lKQsrRiNvVqjHM7QwzIsoHKeKV/z1bauhSICkKJQSza+0n06gxGH7JkdEJM08qMN95MWvdysahXMHmBkp6tBL4JM= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:47:29 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: BioMimicry, the old way In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001501c71316$a49365c0$6401a8c0 NuDell> <104e01c7132e$f53a98f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: de. diatamacous (SP?) earth. those filters, much much better. On 11/30/06, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/29/06, leaking pen wrote: > > > then, > > brush the dead algae every couple of hours, vaccuum, and backwash. > > easy peasey lemon squeezy. > > Well, my experience has been that a sand filter will not catch the > small particulates of the algae unless you let it precipitate and > waste while vacuuming. > > Terry > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 09:01:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUH0bAK023294; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:00:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUGsmoX019546; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:54:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:54:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=6YsD1ImoRxb+9HxYSzlB5c9UuBO5HNy3Z8CcBCf/OjXbBtXEOcik5PAiKIhGFcsXedeZPnG9ZXMxdJsN15am3sbppUX5F8uPdGxsL4VPrBxypv5nPs+3mNcgg6dzdFFu0UTnAAa0bmZ8K2UwmaP4qw0X3pTVl7CgTyVrt/SIy/s= ; X-YMail-OSG: 5a36cGUVM1nCqci2AJAU99LVAvLhsmW.Nfr.fk7p.S6LWjti_rVGAN8eWCFOdXHFz8nZusShV7pr48CR8bfJkpbeI4VIY6dM6shfuV_qFkPWXavUfjlQ9A-- Message-ID: <003001c7149f$445846a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> <456EFFAD.1010309@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:47:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > I've recused myself from all technical debates on the reality or > possibility of OU magnetic motors until I come up with a good > answer to the following question: > When an electron is accelerated in a nonuniform magnetic field > due to the electron's own (permanent) magnetic dipole, where > does the energy come from? Depends on how many layers deep to you need to go, Neo. This can be one deep rabbit-hole, especially when you forget your meds... On one lower level there is the well-known prhenomenon of magentic precession of domains in a permanent magnet (PM), no? Precession involves angular momentum, no? Angular momentum can be transfered, no? If a PM is capable, at the domain level, of transfering some of its precessional angular momentum away from its aligned and synchronous domains- then that would necessarily be a conservative situation... and the magnet would/should become demagnetized... unless ?? Unless something (some quantum force or effect) akin to the Casimir force was capable of applying an effectvie pressure, at the domain level, so that the angular momentum of the PM - which had been lessened by a small amount in the transfer of energy [to either a valence electron or another unrelated domain] was immediately recouped (or "regauged" as Bearden likes to miss-state). Can we stop at the level of the Casimir force? Jones ...ain't Vortex great? ... fast-and-loose answers for every deep mystery. Kinda like Wonderland, no? ...that marvellous place "like a dream come true" and with the occasional pop-literary "Down the Rabbit-Hole," cross-referencing. ... as when Morpheus says to Neo "I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole" ... " take the red pill and I will show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 10:36:17 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUIZv1A027337; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:35:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUIZtFB027306; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:35:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:35:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:07:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge In-reply-to: <0c7301c71475$613bd9f0$3800a8c0 zothan> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: weight and charge > > >> >> Yes that is true, but I am positing a slight weight loss when >> travelling horizontally and while remaining in contact with >> the ground. >> >> The assertion that weight is zero at a horizontal speed of 17,000 mph >> was computed with standard physics. > > Let's see, > > F=ma > Weight mg = m*v^2/r (mass times centripetal acceleration) > => v=Sqrt(rg)=Sqrt(6.4E6m*9.8ms^-2) > =7920 m/s > =7920/1609*3600=17700mph, that's about right > >> >> However, after some initial efforts to quantity my concept of weight, I >> would >> say weight will approach zero asymptotically with increasing horizontal >> speed, but will never actually equal zero. (With speed on the x-axis and >> weight >> on the y-axis the curve is bell-shaped). > > I disagree, apparent weight can become negative. Any plane traveling faster > than 17,000 mph would have to have it's seats on the ceiling :) > > Michel This is an *effective-weight* -- a centrifugal force -- caused by an inertial mass travelling so fast that it opposes gravity. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 10:43:12 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUIgsi4000384; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:42:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUIgpXf000332; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:42:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:42:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s+z6AYf7jwWSCpvbCIx9b15ahrjvCFmZyYr5jKmWJpJYfT6ysGUJyReuTEQf/eHK02lbBtbqTMJs9oPirDJuXF486/A3B2xVHoCXEQLfaNNHSK0KcRZFM2QLW7E+iQZjPvj16UCe3ADO2FtYVrCt4+3aTOUixDM6eq81ZwsTlgE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:42:49 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor In-Reply-To: <0c8101c71478$8dbf3d20$3800a8c0 zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408 pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0 zothan> <0b8301c713e3$f63fd1b0$3800a8c0 zothan> <0bc301c71410$a444c0f0$3800a8c0 zothan> <0c8101c71478$8dbf3d20$3800a8c0 zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <8Pg_uB.A.EF.rYybFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/30/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > Ah, so you're admitting the current version is not OU. Gotcha ;-) In the famous words of the Brits, piss off. Warm regards, Terryh From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 10:49:00 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUImg01005063; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:48:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUImekG005039; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:48:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:48:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003301c714b0$260e4ee0$6e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Interesting News About Steorn Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:48:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01C7147D.DAE72F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C7147D.DAE72F40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0030_01C7147D.DAE72F40" ------=_NextPart_001_0030_01C7147D.DAE72F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. On one lower level there is the well-known prhenomenon of magentic=20 precession of domains in a permanent magnet (PM), no? Precession involves angular momentum, no? Angular momentum can be transfered, no? If a PM is capable, at the domain level, of transfering some of=20 its precessional angular momentum away from its aligned and=20 synchronous domains- then that would necessarily be a=20 conservative situation... and the magnet would/should become=20 demagnetized... unless ?? Unless something (some quantum force or effect) akin to the=20 Casimir force was capable of applying an effectvie pressure, at=20 the domain level, so that the angular momentum of the PM - which=20 had been lessened by a small amount in the transfer of energy [to=20 either a valence electron or another unrelated domain] was=20 immediately recouped (or "regauged" as Bearden likes to=20 miss-state). Howdy Jones, Been thinking about how to fit a section of 4 inch clear PVC pipe into = the test rig we are designing . The pipe will "encase" the eyewall type = vortex .. approx 3 ft in vertical length. In this section we plan to = flange in various pipe segments for experiments. One will be a section of magnets. The idea is to use neodym 1/2'"dia x = 1/4 " and imbed them flush with the inside dia of the pipe. Then came = and idea to fix the magnets into the pipe in an upward spiral that = matches the normal vortex upward spiral . Also add some removable s = shaped"clips" inside the pipe would enchance the vortex possibly. The = question arose about adding a section of pipe for a ultrasonic "horn " = segment .. above or below the magnet section.. We decided since the pipe = segments are modular, they can be installed either way to determine = results. Had another e-mail suggesting we design a segment with copper = rings and add a " tesla coil" setup firing circuit into the water = vortex... sounds kinda wild but we will add it if anyone has any = experience in electro- water setups of this type. Weare also studying how to install a UV lamp inside the pipe to interact = with the vortex. Als planning to arrange the 4 inch vertical pipe so an external pipe = shroud can be installed and sealed with another liquid. This experiment = could be used to determine if there is a temperature differential result = from the formation of the vortex in the inner pipe filled with water..=20 Fun stuff.. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0030_01C7147D.DAE72F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
 
On one lower level there is the well-known prhenomenon of magentic=20
precession of domains in a permanent magnet (PM), = no?

Precession=20 involves angular momentum, no?

Angular momentum can be = transfered,=20 no?

If a PM is capable, at the domain level, of transfering some = of=20
its precessional angular momentum away from its aligned and =
synchronous=20 domains-  then that would necessarily be a
conservative = situation...=20 and the magnet would/should become
demagnetized... unless = ??

Unless=20 something (some quantum force or effect) akin to the
Casimir force = was=20 capable of applying an effectvie pressure, at
the domain level, so = that the=20 angular momentum of the PM - which
had been lessened by a small = amount in=20 the transfer of energy [to
either a valence electron or another = unrelated=20 domain] was
immediately recouped (or "regauged" as Bearden likes to=20
miss-state).
 
Howdy Jones,
 
Been thinking about how to fit a section of 4 inch clear PVC pipe = into the=20 test rig we are designing . The pipe will "encase" the eyewall type = vortex ..=20 approx 3 ft in vertical length. In this section we plan to flange in = various=20 pipe segments for experiments.
One will be a section of magnets. The idea is to use neodym  = 1/2'"dia=20 x 1/4 " and  imbed them flush with the inside dia of the pipe. Then = came=20 and idea to fix the magnets into the pipe in an upward spiral = that=20 matches the normal vortex upward spiral . Also add some removable s=20 shaped"clips" inside the pipe would enchance the vortex possibly. The = question=20 arose about adding a section of pipe for a ultrasonic "horn " segment .. = above=20 or below the magnet section.. We decided since the pipe segments = are=20 modular, they can be installed either way to determine results. Had = another=20 e-mail suggesting we design a segment with copper rings and add a " = tesla=20 coil"  setup firing circuit into the water vortex... sounds = kinda wild=20 but we will add it if anyone has any experience in electro- water setups = of this=20 type.
Weare also studying how to install a UV lamp inside the pipe to = interact=20 with the vortex.
 
Als planning to arrange the 4 inch vertical pipe so an external = pipe shroud=20 can be installed and sealed with another liquid. This experiment could = be used=20 to determine if there is a temperature differential result from the = formation of=20 the vortex in the inner pipe filled with water..
 
Fun stuff..

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0030_01C7147D.DAE72F40-- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C7147D.DAE72F40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002e01c714b0$2579fe20$6e027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C7147D.DAE72F40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 10:50:16 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUIo2rs006185; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:50:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUIkopO003885; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:46:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:46:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c714ab$ab94b040$6e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <538fa8f10611292304r5e9f957at9160deeb8d94f32b mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:16:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C71479.6076DF70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: does centripetal vortex create a "free electron" in vortexed water? Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C71479.6076DF70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Esa Ruoho wrote.. hello, does anyone have any data as to how vortexing could create a = free electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of = water? came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man about = water's energy levels and he asked if my vortexeralso frees up an = electron in the water)=20 "The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate = what happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. = Coming out of the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It = contains an extra electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of = naturally moving water that creates this structure. But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex = (as we can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a = circular motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons = off the water molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. = It's still hydrogen and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical = charge." this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm but honestly.. anyone have any more leads. Howdy Esa, Best evidence is that a vortex has an " internal reverse flow" as you = can see by viewing water flow down a drain. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C71479.6076DF70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Esa Ruoho wrote..

hello, does anyone have any data  as to how vortexing could = create a=20 free electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of=20 water?


came across this quote (first was = speaking with an=20 old man  about water's energy levels  and  he asked = if =20 my  vortexeralso frees up an electron  in the water) =
"The great scientist Viktor = Schauberger=20 was the first to demonstrate what happens to water when we pump it = through=20 pipes under pressure. Coming out of the ground, Schauberger said, = water is "living." It contains an extra = electron in=20 the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water that = creates=20 this structure.
But when=20 pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as we = can easily=20 demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular motion, = and this=20 circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water molecule, = creating=20 what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen and oxygen, = but it=20 lacks a specific electrical charge."
this from http://netmar.co= m/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm

but=20 honestly.. anyone have any more leads.
 
Howdy Esa,
 
Best evidence is that a vortex has an " = internal=20 reverse flow" as you can see by viewing water flow down a = drain.
 
Richard

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C71479.6076DF70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 11:31:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUJUiHn015566; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:30:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUJUf8M015526; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:30:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:30:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:31:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id kAUJUdiG015455 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Mega-tsunamis are more common than we think? Status: O X-Status: Dallas Abbott also said on the discovery channel that collisions in the ocean would cause a lot of rain to fall. Harry [This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1790224.htm] Last Update: Thursday, November 16, 2006. 3:00pm (AEDT) Mega-tsunamis more common than we think: scientists By Anna Salleh for Science Online Enormous comets may have often bombarded our oceans in the past, causing tsunamis that dwarf ones seen today, a small group of scientists says. But most critics are yet to be convinced there is evidence to back claims about such recent, frequent mega-impacts. Conventional wisdom has it that the Earth suffered such violent hits from space only twice every million years. But scientists including Australian geomorphologist Associate Professor Ted Bryant of the University of Wollongong have been studying what they say is evidence of massive objects slamming into the Earth's oceans as recently as 500 years ago. They say these kilometre-wide objects are likely to have been comets. Prof Bryant says there have been up to 10 such impacts in the past 10,000 years, based on research with others, including Assistant Professor Dallas Abbott from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University. Prof Bryant says these would have caused mega-tsunamis 10 times bigger than the 2004 Asian tsunami, one of the largest earthquake-generated tsunamis the world has ever seen. "Aceh was a dimple compared to what we're looking at," said Professor Bryant, who is associate dean of science at the university. Evidence from Google Earth Prof Bryant used satellite images from Google Earth to identify inland dunes in the shape of arrowheads that he says are signs of mega-tsunamis. He says the tsunamis would have displaced marine deposits containing marine fossils, dumping them inland as 'chevron' dunes. "We've found that chevrons are everywhere, everywhere around the world's coasts," he said. Prof Abbot used sea surface altimetry, which measures the height of the sea surface to get an image of the seabed, to identify possible underwater craters, which could be evidence of the impact that caused the tsunamis. Prof Bryant says Prof Abbot also looked for melted material in cores from the seabed around the craters to confirm impacts caused them. The chevrons and craters were linked by the direction the chevrons were pointing. For example, two chevrons identified six kilometres inland from the Gulf of Carpentaria in Australia both pointed north in the direction of two craters found in the Gulf of Carpentaria itself, Prof Bryant says. He says dating of sediments to the north of the craters suggests the impact happened 1,500 years ago, and the well-preserved chevrons also date to around the same time. Indian Ocean crater Prof Bryant says chevrons about 4,800 years old around the Indian Ocean are associated with a 29-kilometre wide impact crater located thousands of kilometres to the south-east of Madagascar. "There are chevrons around the Indian Ocean that all point back to this one crater site," he said. He says this is supported by evidence from an anthropologist on the team who found 170 myths and legends from the area dating back about 4,000 years referring to an event that could have been the impact. Prof Bryant says other evidence of a mega-tsunami as recently as 500 years ago has been found on the eastern coast of Australia. He and Prof Abbott have linked this one to an impact crater south of Stewart Island in New Zealand. None of the research has been published but some of it will be presented at an American Geophysical Union meeting in San Francisco next month. Mixed reception Earth scientist Professor Richard Arculus of the Australian National University says he accepts Prof Bryant's evidence of mega-tsunamis. But he says working out what caused them and when will require more evidence. His colleague, marine sediment specialist Dr Bradley Opdyke, is also yet to be convinced. "They're heading in the right direction," he said. But he believes more evidence is required to prove the existence of the Indian Ocean crater. New Zealand-based tsunami expert Dr Mauri McSaveney of GNS Science says there is pretty good evidence that there are more large craters on our planet than mainstream scientists think there should be. While he says Prof Bryant's claims are "perfectly plausible" and the best available evidence suggests the New Zealand crater is one from the Holocene period, this could still be wrong. "He has yet to convince me and a lot of others," Dr McSaveney said. But as Prof Arculus says, Prof Bryant is fighting against a tradition in earth sciences that suggests everything we see around us is the product of slow processes rather than sudden catastrophic events. "Geologists are naturally anti-catastrophe," he said. "We're inclined to be conservative." © 2006 Australian Broadcasting Corporation From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 11:33:19 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUJU30L014825; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:33:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUJKI2m005900; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:20:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:20:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:48:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Sprain motor In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 11/29/06, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Well, whether linear or sinusoidal, I view this device more and more as a >> perfectly ordinary electric motor so I won't hold my breath until it becomes >> overunity. > > Wise choice. > Technically speaking COP is not a measurement. Its value is calculated by identifying the value of actual measurements with variables in a system of algebraic relations which are structured according to the logic of accepted physical laws. Unless the device can power itself, we are at the mercy of the accepted "laws" to act as judges of performance. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 11:52:44 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUJqOpV009511; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:52:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUJqLKu009442; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:52:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:52:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=l+h+E+byr61vPZG8YQzCc0LdAIOrqwHaSk74KmUYrmrLQx+KpB53djZsaSYuxYsmqSSaMIEJ4paU6EFh3JhpSlpUPVS+iIORnJFYSYsYidQ0QrWg+EJSKDgcOzEONpFe1H7tgPpOJMdMESnuKFppEm3FymR/WiOrAUIl5QwCBRI= ; X-YMail-OSG: Vd_o.E4VM1kKZpxM81o3AjrQGAwZWnJ3Fzog.J9oeSqIVMgGpXUkKx.HUurudQnX8cNw5e3T3t_HzNXwYW4Obup9F3.D.V96KElt6V7KGXfjCYl7YSvcJQ-- Message-ID: <00e101c714b9$073c5c10$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003301c714b0$260e4ee0$6e027841 xptower> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:52:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: <423b8C.A.ATC.0ZzbFB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RCM Vortex Machine - was Interesting News About Steorn Status: O X-Status: BlankRichard > The question arose about adding a section of pipe for a > ultrasonic "horn " segment .. above or below the magnet > section.. We decided since the pipe segments are modular, they > can be installed either way to determine results.... I would love to know if there is any synergy between the two oddities: a powerful vortex when combined with ultrasonic cavitation, but am not at all sure how that finding would be put to good use. I have a suspcion that there could be a novel way to split water and generate hydrogen in there ... somewhere, somehow. Is you main focus here to use the device for water purification - only, or are you looking towards possible energy applications? ... or are you just going to stir it all up, so to speak, and see what comes out? which come to think of it, is how 'Mother Nature' often operates (biomimicry) Jones PS Here is a side note that Richard will appreciate, even if it didn't happen in Texas. How to loose about $630 million in eighteen months .... Only recently did Enron surpass this record. The Lakeview Gusher #1 is often regarded as the largest recorded U.S. oil well gusher, but it was located in Kern County, CA. (it only sounds like it should have been another tall tale from the Lone Star State) Modern well drilling techniques have advanced safety features that reduce the chances of a out-of-control gusher. But this gusher happened before then, having made its debut in 1910 as the drill bit found the 2,440-foot level. http://www.sjgs.com/lakeview.html At its peak in the following days, the oil flow reached ~100,000 barrels per 24-hours. The large flow created a creek of crude oil running downhill from the well site. Crews rushed to contain the river of crude oil with a system of improvised sand bag dams and dikes. Remarkably, the gusher never caught fire during its 18-month stint of freedom. Although Lakeview No. 1 produced 9.4 million barrels during the 544 days it flowed out of control, less than half of this oil was saved- the rest evaporating off or seeping into the ground. At today's prices about $630 million worth of crude was lost or turned into the world's largest paved parking lot ... At that time you cold have bought the whole City of LA for less. Nowadays, LA freeways have become the world's largest paved parking lot ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 12:18:07 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUKHigw013197; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:17:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUKHe3r013146; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:17:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:17:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: hApkQsIVM1lNES5WULPZ2fCKqDdEqTo3HGEddwmvZ72eFITvwszvTKKPlyZTE_wxadso_6o3YoWxFNun9n_ZQWJhB.pkB5FbNDRBBbX09cyFKLWJV3t0kmQ1ZftYsF.3ZKfFk4NWJ1Ik_0o- Message-ID: <456F3C5B.7080304 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:17:31 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn References: <20061127205043.59175.qmail web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <456B7643.7040408@pobox.com> <052701c71300$7d16c340$3800a8c0@zothan> <456EFFAD.1010309@pobox.com> <003001c7149f$445846a0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <003001c7149f$445846a0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > >> I've recused myself from all technical debates on the reality or >> possibility of OU magnetic motors until I come up with a good answer >> to the following question: > >> When an electron is accelerated in a nonuniform magnetic field due to >> the electron's own (permanent) magnetic dipole, where does the energy >> come from? > > > > Depends on how many layers deep to you need to go, Neo. This can be one > deep rabbit-hole, especially when you forget your meds... I can recognize that this is a quote but I don't know the source, sad to say. (It's not nearly old enough...) > On one lower level there is the well-known prhenomenon of magentic > precession of domains in a permanent magnet (PM), no? > > Precession involves angular momentum, no? But this isn't an angular momentum issue, this is a kinetic energy issue. For simple electric charges, charge densities, and currents, by inspection of Maxwell's equations, magnetic fields do no work, electric fields are conservative, and a magnet-based perpetual motion machine based on "simple" charge carriers is impossible. But electrons aren't simple electric charges, and if the electron's dipole isn't exactly perpendicular to the B field it's in, and if the field is nonuniform, the electron will feel a (linear) force acting on it, either up or down the field gradient depending on its orientation relative to the field. And as soon as it starts to move, it's gained kinetic energy. The energy came from _somewhere_. But where? And can the source of the energy be described by a model which uses a (conservative) potential-based force field to describe the motion of the electron? If the answer to that last question is "yes", then AFAICS magnetic perpetual motion is, again, impossible (unless there is yet some other strange and unknown way to squeeze energy out of a B field). If the answer is "no" then the jury's out. And I don't know the answer. I asked one physicist about it and got a Zen-like answer which didn't tell me much of anything. For what it's worth, the disconnect with classical theory is that you can't slow down the electron's spin. In a classical current loop, if you do something that at first glance pulls energy out of noplace, close examination generally reveals that you actually stole energy from the loop. But, as I said, with an electron's permanent B field, you can't do that. > Angular momentum can be transfered, no? > > If a PM is capable, at the domain level, of transfering some of its > precessional angular momentum away from its aligned and synchronous > domains- then that would necessarily be a conservative situation... and > the magnet would/should become demagnetized... unless ?? Since this issue comes up with two electrons, each immersed in the other's field, and since an electron can't be demagnetized, I think the issue of "robbing the permanent magnet" to pay for the deficit is a red herring. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 13:08:08 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUL7wq3032021; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:07:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUL7v8s031997; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:07:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:08:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-reply-to: <456F3C5B.7080304 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > But electrons aren't simple electric charges, and if the electron's > dipole isn't exactly perpendicular to the B field it's in, and if the > field is nonuniform, the electron will feel a (linear) force acting on > it, either up or down the field gradient depending on its orientation > relative to the field. And as soon as it starts to move, it's gained > kinetic energy. > > The energy came from _somewhere_. But where? >From gravity? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 13:14:29 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAULEKdO005999; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:14:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAULEIXd005960; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:14:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:03:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Interesting News About Steorn In-reply-to: <456F3C5B.7080304 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > But electrons aren't simple electric charges, and if the electron's > dipole isn't exactly perpendicular to the B field it's in, and if the > field is nonuniform, the electron will feel a (linear) force acting on > it, either up or down the field gradient depending on its orientation > relative to the field. And as soon as it starts to move, it's gained > kinetic energy. > > The energy came from _somewhere_. But where? >From the "flow" of time itself? > And can the source of the > energy be described by a model which uses a (conservative) > potential-based force field to describe the motion of the electron? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 13:26:21 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAULPvsi018390; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:25:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAULPqww018329; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:25:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:25:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Vnk8B6YpR50CiCc4TFCQraTiqc4E5SJzP2KhKuJDYx1mNJqJvQRzQqpS5kTaSNPZ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611430204715507 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:47:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940117b7b20024d93d671ea4987e2694c0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum, Light Speed And Nuclear Remediation Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hoyt Stearns mentioned shining a light beam between the plates of a capacitor with high potential applied to see if the light speed changed. The high voltage transmission lines of the power grid should work for either a light beam or radar echo of miles long paths, Hoyt. The vacuum/aether seems to control the internal "clock" of particles/quarks, (a gamma of about 10^18th for the proton quarks and 10^20th for the electron-positron. Thus a radioisotope with a few hundred or thousand year half-life should be susceptable to clock change with only a slight change in the vacuum/aether properties (PV?) by high E-Field interaction. Barker claimed the high E-Field remediation of rad-wastes years ago. Deja Vu on radioactivity under power lines, Jones? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hoyt Stearns mentioned shining a light beam between
the plates of a capacitor with high potential applied to see if the
light speed changed.
The high voltage transmission lines of the power grid
should work for either a light beam or radar echo of miles long paths, Hoyt.
The vacuum/aether seems to control the internal "clock"
of particles/quarks, (a gamma of about 10^18th for the
proton quarks and 10^20th for the electron-positron.
 
Thus a radioisotope with a few hundred or thousand year
half-life should be susceptable to clock change with only
a slight change in the vacuum/aether properties (PV?) by high
E-Field interaction.
 
Barker claimed the high E-Field remediation of rad-wastes years ago.
 
Deja Vu on radioactivity under power lines, Jones?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 13:32:28 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAULUDwP022197; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:32:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAULNK7R014203; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:23:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:23:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=riU/82ePT9kyo7E5o8c3s8q0adlYqLyTk0RovGPwakPBUg3Q88yGUIgs16cJrEZY; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200611430212310296 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:23:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940459bf8c2dfff6cbc0145ba51cd094f9a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Polarized Vacuum, Light Speed And Nuclear Remediation Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Something heretofore unnoticed,altering the vacuum/aether inside the Van de Graaff Sphere? Barker US 5,076,971 DEC 31 1991 "Gamma decay enhancement, like alpha decay enhancement, is long range but there is no Coulomb barrier to magnify the effect. All nuclei change their shapes from spherical to ellipsoidal etc. Gamma radiation occurs as a result of the oscillations of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus. Tests were conducted to show that a positive or negative voltage on a Van de Graaff generator accelerates beta and alpha decay. One beta and two alpha emitters were placed inside the generator sphere, charged to a voltage of 350+75 kv, for a period of twelve hours. When the voltage was switched off, the measured activity oscillated through substantial variations. After three days the measured depletion was about 1% for Tl 204, about 7% for Po 210 and about 2.6% for Th 230. After seven days, the depletion had increased to about 5.3%, about 55.3% and about 81.8%, respectively. It is expected that the depletion will continue to background for all three sources within about 60 days. A depletion "burn" can be initiated in an alpha emitter with a Van de Graaff voltage of about -50 kv in a time interval of 20 minutes or so. The alpha depletion is primarily due to the alpha excitation 2e.phi.." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 11/30/2006 1:47:05 PM Subject: Re: Polarized Vacuum, Light Speed And Nuclear Remediation Hoyt Stearns mentioned shining a light beam between the plates of a capacitor with high potential applied to see if the light speed changed. The high voltage transmission lines of the power grid should work for either a light beam or radar echo of miles long paths, Hoyt. The vacuum/aether seems to control the internal "clock" of particles/quarks, (a gamma of about 10^18th for the proton quarks and 10^20th for the electron-positron. Thus a radioisotope with a few hundred or thousand year half-life should be susceptable to clock change with only a slight change in the vacuum/aether properties (PV?) by high E-Field interaction. Barker claimed the high E-Field remediation of rad-wastes years ago. Deja Vu on radioactivity under power lines, Jones? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Something heretofore unnoticed,altering the vacuum/aether inside the Van de Graaff Sphere?
 
Barker US 5,076,971  DEC 31 1991
 
"Gamma decay enhancement, like alpha decay enhancement, is long range but there is no Coulomb barrier to magnify the effect. All nuclei change their shapes from spherical to ellipsoidal etc. Gamma radiation occurs as a result of the oscillations of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus.

Tests were conducted to show that a positive or negative voltage on a Van de Graaff generator accelerates beta and alpha decay. One beta and two alpha emitters were placed inside the generator sphere, charged to a voltage of 350+75 kv, for a period of twelve hours. When the voltage was switched off, the measured activity oscillated through substantial variations. After three days the measured depletion was about 1% for Tl 204, about 7% for Po 210 and about 2.6% for Th 230. After seven days, the depletion had increased to about 5.3%, about 55.3% and about 81.8%, respectively. It is expected that the depletion will continue to background for all three sources within about 60 days.

A depletion "burn" can be initiated in an alpha emitter with a Van de Graaff voltage of about -50 kv in a time interval of 20 minutes or so. The alpha depletion is primarily due to the alpha excitation 2e.phi.."
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/30/2006 1:47:05 PM
Subject: Re: Polarized Vacuum, Light Speed And Nuclear Remediation

Hoyt Stearns mentioned shining a light beam between
the plates of a capacitor with high potential applied to see if the
light speed changed.
The high voltage transmission lines of the power grid
should work for either a light beam or radar echo of miles long paths, Hoyt.
The vacuum/aether seems to control the internal "clock"
of particles/quarks, (a gamma of about 10^18th for the
proton quarks and 10^20th for the electron-positron.
 
Thus a radioisotope with a few hundred or thousand year
half-life should be susceptable to clock change with only
a slight change in the vacuum/aether properties (PV?) by high
E-Field interaction.
 
Barker claimed the high E-Field remediation of rad-wastes years ago.
 
Deja Vu on radioactivity under power lines, Jones?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 13:32:31 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAULUDwR022197; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:32:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUKVTI3023971; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:31:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:31:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ix7/jwl0JqIoTNAqlpzLSx8RCTtLBpbEQ9JJ6TmoQrzhkcC2SaDS4TAOqnJdzqjH0PjwaB1/yM+//+ICRtW37KpRKRZjb7+Hkkm9pY6aCsgQWEZc85SrcmddrNoeazz2JvAAquFKjfH2TndCFWmijKAExPdoQzWdlw3StQAqwAc= Message-ID: <538fa8f10611301231j2468fd88laf60d6069327055 mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:31:27 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: does centripetal vortex create a "free electron" in vortexed water? In-Reply-To: <001e01c714ab$ab94b040$6e027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_24887_27221885.1164918687656" References: <538fa8f10611292304r5e9f957at9160deeb8d94f32b mail.gmail.com> <001e01c714ab$ab94b040$6e027841 xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_24887_27221885.1164918687656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline surely theres more than "yup, its the counter-current" :( have there been measurements? before-after treatment of water with a counter-current-in-a-vortex freeing up an extrafree electron.. anything? On 11/30/06, RC Macaulay wrote: > > Esa Ruoho wrote.. > > hello, does anyone have any data as to how vortexing could create a free > electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of water? > came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man about water's > energy levels and he asked if my vortexeralso frees up an electron in > the water) > "The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate what > happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. Coming out of > the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It contains an extra > electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water > that creates this structure. > But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as > we can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular > motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water > molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen > and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical charge." > this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm > but honestly.. anyone have any more leads. > > Howdy Esa, > > Best evidence is that a vortex has an " internal reverse flow" as you can > see by viewing water flow down a drain. > > Richard > > ------=_Part_24887_27221885.1164918687656 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline surely theres more than "yup, its the counter-current" :(
have there been measurements?
before-after  treatment of water  with a counter-current-in-a-vortex freeing up an extrafree electron.. anything?


On 11/30/06, RC Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
Esa Ruoho wrote..
hello, does anyone have any data  as to how vortexing could create a free electron (or, free up an electron) in the molecular structure of water?
came across this quote (first was speaking with an old man  about water's energy levels  and  he asked if  my  vortexeralso frees up an electron  in the water)
"The great scientist Viktor Schauberger was the first to demonstrate what happens to water when we pump it through pipes under pressure. Coming out of the ground, Schauberger said, water is "living." It contains an extra electron in the outer ring, and it is the vortex of naturally moving water that creates this structure.
But when pushed through a pipe, although it wants to move in a vortex (as we can easily demonstrate for ourselves), water is forced into a circular motion, and this circular movement strips the outer electrons off the water molecule, creating what's called "unstructured" water. It's still hydrogen and oxygen, but it lacks a specific electrical charge."
this from http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/dec3/editor.htm
but honestly.. anyone have any more leads.
 Howdy Esa,
 
Best evidence is that a vortex has an " internal reverse flow" as you can see by viewing water flow down a drain.
 
Richard
------=_Part_24887_27221885.1164918687656-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 15:09:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUMe7fg025681; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:40:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAUM4DcL019136; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:04:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:04:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001e01c714cb$7672cc60$e6027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:OT: Mega-tsunamis are more common.. Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:04:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C71499.2B51EE50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C71499.2B51EE50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C71499.2B51EE50" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C71499.2B51EE50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHarry Veeder wrote, Prof Bryant used satellite images from Google Earth to identify inland = dunes in the shape of arrowheads that he says are signs of mega-tsunamis Howdy Harry, Good example would be the " dunes" down on the King Ranch in deep south = Texas. They can be observed both sides of US 77 below Kingsville. = Something bigger than a hurricane caused them. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C71499.2B51EE50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Harry Veeder wrote,

Prof Bryant used satellite images from Google Earth to identify = inland=20 dunes
in the shape of arrowheads that he says are signs of = mega-tsunamis

Howdy Harry,

Good example would be the " dunes" down on the King Ranch in deep = south=20 Texas. They can be observed both sides of US 77 below Kingsville. = Something=20 bigger than a hurricane caused them.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C71499.2B51EE50-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C71499.2B51EE50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c714cb$75ead7b0$e6027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C71499.2B51EE50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Nov 30 15:10:14 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kAUMe7fi025681; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id kAULv7Nt013703; Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:57:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:57:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c714ca$72ce9900$e6027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: RCM Vortex Machine Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:56:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C71498.2788F4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C71498.2788F4E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C71498.2788F4E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C71498.2788F4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. Is you main focus here to use the device for water purification -=20 only, or are you looking towards possible energy applications? ... or are you just going to stir it all up, so to speak, and see=20 what comes out? which come to think of it, is how 'Mother Nature' often=20 operates (biomimicry). Howdy Jones, The original unit demonstrated the ability to form a near perfect = "eyewall" type vortex. This eyewall is intriguing enough for us to want = to pursue some interesting as well as far out suggestions for tests = including yours regarding microwave into the center of the eye. Still = trying to figure out how to rig a test for this. Could an external = magnetron connected to a submerged wifi antenna "work" under water ? The object is to attempt to shake, rattle or roll minerals out of = brackist and seawater prior to filtering upstream of the reverse osmosis = membrane batteries. We can aereate some out via oxidation but = overwhelming in scope. Some input states a combo of events may allow a = 'disconnect" of mineral from water sufficent to separate. Shucks, if my ole great grandad could make the best "corn squeezins" in = Crockett county, we should be able to separate minerals from water. = Course the " revenuers" got him in the end but his reputation remained = intact, it was only his neck they stretched. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C71498.2788F4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..
 
Is you main focus here to use the device for water purification - =
only,=20 or are you looking towards possible energy applications?

... or = are you=20 just going to stir it all up, so to speak, and see
what comes = out?
which <G> come to think of it, is how 'Mother Nature' often=20
operates (biomimicry).
 
 
Howdy Jones,
 
The original unit demonstrated the ability to form a near perfect = "eyewall"=20 type vortex. This eyewall is intriguing enough for us to want to pursue = some=20 interesting as well as far out suggestions for tests including yours = regarding=20 microwave into the center of the eye. Still trying to figure out how to = rig a=20 test for this. Could an external magnetron connected to a submerged = wifi=20 antenna "work" under water ?
 
The object is to attempt to shake, rattle or roll minerals out of = brackist=20 and seawater prior to filtering upstream of the reverse osmosis membrane = batteries. We can aereate some out via oxidation but overwhelming in = scope. Some=20 input states a combo of events may allow a 'disconnect" of mineral from = water=20 sufficent to separate.
 
Shucks, if my ole great grandad could make the best "corn = squeezins" in=20 Crockett county, we should be able to separate minerals from water. = Course the "=20 revenuers" got him in the end but his reputation remained intact, it was = only=20 his neck they stretched.
 
Richard

 

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